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HARIOM,

 

Proponents of Dhyana Yoga (Yoga of Meditation)say one must attain

Nivikalp samadhi (a very difficult task for most people) to

completely eradicate the VASANAS (desires, passions, impressions

remaining in the mind) from the causal body. Thus they express that

any one of the other paths of the Holy Gita is not a sufficient

condition for mukti (liberation, benediction, release from rebirth

in the world, emancipation). Please remove my doubts completely and

in detail.

 

HariOm Roy

----------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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HARIOM,

 

Proponents of Dhyana Yoga (Yoga of Meditation)say one must attain

Nivikalp samadhi (a very difficult task for most people) to

completely eradicate the VASANAS (desires, passions, impressions

remaining in the mind) from the causal body. Thus they express that

any one of the other paths of the Holy Gita is not a sufficient

condition for mukti (liberation, benediction, release from rebirth

in the world, emancipation). Please remove my doubts completely and

in detail.

 

HariOm Roy

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In my seeing, it is the most important that one realizes what one

truly IS!, not as one thinks or believes one is! Samadhi as I

understand it, is a state which comes and goes, so " we " cannot be

such a state. We are THAT whatever THAT may be, in which such states

come and go, but we don't ever come or go as Consciousness!

Upon investigation we may discover that such state as savikalpa

samadhi arises in our Consciousness (which is also our Beingness) in

meditation while focusing on God or breath etc., and when samadhi

state leaves us it goes back to same Consciousness just as wave

arising and vanishing back to ocean(water really). We know " we " are

Ocean of Consciousness even when waves arise or vanish.

 

Nirvikalpa samadhi is when Consciousness is devoid of objects

experienced only as thoughts in mind and sensations/feelings in

body. In otherword, Consciousness being Conscious of ITSELF,

liberating from limitations of objects.

Due to desires, vaasanas, attachments etc one is constantly occupied

by objects of perceptions and/or feelings such as anger, jealousy,

envy etc, samadhi state is not manifest as Consciousness is

identified with such objects.

 

When understanding takes place through inquiy, contemplations,

meditation(if one has inclination to path of Gyan), then one

realizes one is not body-mind based separate person, and samadhi

happens naturally. When samadhi state happens naturally regardless

of presence ot abscence of objects as perceptions, conceptions,

arising in Consciousness, Consciousness is liberated and a state of

Sahaj samadhi happens. (Many saints such as Ramana Maharshi,

Ramkrishna Paramhansa were in such a state while being engaged in

activities, as I know).

 

It is apperception meaning Consciousness being conscious of Itself

(Sat-Chit-Ananda swarupa) rather than objects, in all situations.

(Like wave now knows it is really water even as it appears to be

wave from the mind's perspective).

Such realization is of primary importance, and samadhi state may be

an indication only.

 

It is equally possible to realize this by total Devotion, or being

engaged in selfless Karma within guidelines of Dharma. In such

pursuits Grace is bestowed upon Sadhakas by Bhgwaan. Bliss, Love,

Peace, Harmony, Intelligence, Beauty manifest in life of such a

sadhaka which is the same experience of oneness as narrated by

realized ones or Bhagwaan's devotees!

To summarize, it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neither

is the only path to liberation! Realization through spiritual

sadhana with predominence of Self-inquiry, Devotion, or Karma-Yoga

can lead to ultimate Grace! One knows undoubtedly ONE is

Consciousness(Chit), which is Impersonal Being(sat), and therefore

is at the same time Fullness-Bliss(Anada)!

 

Namaskar.....

 

Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

 

Moksha need not neccesarily by Yoga or become a brahma gnani to

released from cycle of life, in Krishna clearly says easiest way to

attain nirvana is thru true love towards him, thru gnana and yoga

the yogi or upasaka should fix a time to leave this itself requires

lot of knowledge and takes many births.

 

So when easily gnana moksha is available why to go for toughest

thing.

 

But a good food contains all items Dhyana is neccessary along with

Bhakthi to attain the goal.

 

But any one who has read the Gita easily can understand and manage

both.

 

MANY HAVE DOUBTS WHEN KRIHNA SAYS BHAKTHI TAKES U TO MOKSHA THE EASY

WAY AND ALSO MENTIONS TO CONCENTRATE ON HIM(dhyana) AND ALSO MENTIONS

TO KARMA YOGA.

 

WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND WE SHOULD PLAY MUTIPLE MARGAS (path) TO ATTAIN

MOKSHA (salvation).

 

PLEASE READ GITA BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION ASK URSELF ASK LORD INSIDE

YOU.

 

Shapur Shiva

-------------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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HARIOM,

 

Proponents of Dhyana Yoga (Yoga of Meditation)say one must attain

Nivikalp samadhi (a very difficult task for most people) to

completely eradicate the VASANAS (desires, passions, impressions

remaining in the mind) from the causal body. Thus they express that

any one of the other paths of the Holy Gita is not a sufficient

condition for mukti (liberation, benediction, release from rebirth

in the world, emancipation). Please remove my doubts completely and

in detail.

 

HariOm Roy

----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

My dear Sadhak Gurujan,

When whatever we do is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itself

constitutes worship. Whether Moksha or Mukti is thus achieved is a

matter of individual perception.

 

Subbanarasu Divakaran

 

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In my seeing, it is the most important that one realizes what one

truly IS!, not as one thinks or believes one is! Samadhi as I

understand it, is a state which comes and goes, so " we " cannot be

such a state. We are THAT whatever THAT may be, in which such states

come and go, but we don't ever come or go as Consciousness!

Upon investigation we may discover that such state as savikalpa

samadhi arises in our Consciousness (which is also our Beingness) in

meditation while focusing on God or breath etc., and when samadhi

state leaves us it goes back to same Consciousness just as wave

arising and vanishing back to ocean(water really). We know " we " are

Ocean of Consciousness even when waves arise or vanish.

 

Nirvikalpa samadhi is when Consciousness is devoid of objects

experienced only as thoughts in mind and sensations/feelings in

body. In otherword, Consciousness being Conscious of ITSELF,

liberating from limitations of objects.

Due to desires, vaasanas, attachments etc one is constantly occupied

by objects of perceptions and/or feelings such as anger, jealousy,

envy etc, samadhi state is not manifest as Consciousness is

identified with such objects.

 

When understanding takes place through inquiy, contemplations,

meditation(if one has inclination to path of Gyan), then one

realizes one is not body-mind based separate person, and samadhi

happens naturally. When samadhi state happens naturally regardless

of presence ot abscence of objects as perceptions, conceptions,

arising in Consciousness, Consciousness is liberated and a state of

Sahaj samadhi happens. (Many saints such as Ramana Maharshi,

Ramkrishna Paramhansa were in such a state while being engaged in

activities, as I know).

 

It is apperception meaning Consciousness being conscious of Itself

(Sat-Chit-Ananda swarupa) rather than objects, in all situations.

(Like wave now knows it is really water even as it appears to be

wave from the mind's perspective).

Such realization is of primary importance, and samadhi state may be

an indication only.

 

It is equally possible to realize this by total Devotion, or being

engaged in selfless Karma within guidelines of Dharma. In such

pursuits Grace is bestowed upon Sadhakas by Bhgwaan. Bliss, Love,

Peace, Harmony, Intelligence, Beauty manifest in life of such a

sadhaka which is the same experience of oneness as narrated by

realized ones or Bhagwaan's devotees!

To summarize, it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neither

is the only path to liberation! Realization through spiritual

sadhana with predominence of Self-inquiry, Devotion, or Karma-Yoga

can lead to ultimate Grace! One knows undoubtedly ONE is

Consciousness(Chit), which is Impersonal Being(sat), and therefore

is at the same time Fullness-Bliss(Anada)!

 

Namaskar.....

 

Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

 

Moksha need not neccesarily by Yoga or become a brahma gnani to

released from cycle of life, in Krishna clearly says easiest way to

attain nirvana is thru true love towards him, thru gnana and yoga

the yogi or upasaka should fix a time to leave this itself requires

lot of knowledge and takes many births.

 

So when easily gnana moksha is available why to go for toughest

thing.

 

But a good food contains all items Dhyana is neccessary along with

Bhakthi to attain the goal.

 

But any one who has read the Gita easily can understand and manage

both.

 

MANY HAVE DOUBTS WHEN KRIHNA SAYS BHAKTHI TAKES U TO MOKSHA THE EASY

WAY AND ALSO MENTIONS TO CONCENTRATE ON HIM(dhyana) AND ALSO MENTIONS

TO KARMA YOGA.

 

WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND WE SHOULD PLAY MUTIPLE MARGAS (path) TO ATTAIN

MOKSHA (salvation).

 

PLEASE READ GITA BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION ASK URSELF ASK LORD INSIDE

YOU.

 

Shapur Shiva

-------------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted
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HARIOM,

 

Proponents of Dhyana Yoga (Yoga of Meditation)say one must attain

Nivikalp samadhi (a very difficult task for most people) to

completely eradicate the VASANAS (desires, passions, impressions

remaining in the mind) from the causal body. Thus they express that

any one of the other paths of the Holy Gita is not a sufficient

condition for mukti (liberation, benediction, release from rebirth

in the world, emancipation). Please remove my doubts completely and

in detail.

 

HariOm Roy

----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Please correct the misconcept that Holy Gita is insufficient by

reading and assimilating verse 66 of chapter 18. What is Moksh? What

is Mukti? What is Nirvan? What is Realization of Self? All these are

beyond body mind mechanism whereas samadhi of any type or kind is

within it and ends with vyutthaan.

please be specific as to how and where Gita is found insufficient.

Thanks and Regards,

Sarvottam

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Just a quick observation on Divakaranji's post.

Sure, it is a great worship when whatever we do as Krishnaarpanam.

Such sustained worshiping attitude can lead one to Moksha because

the highest one can offer(arpana to Krishna) is oneself-ego in total

surrender!

But Moksha or Mukti is not a matter of individual perception, rather

freedom from Individuality itself! Moksha is when " individual " is

seen as illusion, and all his/her perceptions including " I am an

individual with this body-mind " dissolves into THAT which IS! It is

the only Reality/Atman/Brahman/God and cannot be perceived(by mind)

because IT perceives everything, even mind-body-world.

Namaskar.............

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

My dear Sadhak Gurujan,

When whatever we do is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itself

constitutes worship. Whether Moksha or Mukti is thus achieved is a

matter of individual perception.

 

Subbanarasu Divakaran

 

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In my seeing, it is the most important that one realizes what one

truly IS!, not as one thinks or believes one is! Samadhi as I

understand it, is a state which comes and goes, so " we " cannot be

such a state. We are THAT whatever THAT may be, in which such states

come and go, but we don't ever come or go as Consciousness!

Upon investigation we may discover that such state as savikalpa

samadhi arises in our Consciousness (which is also our Beingness) in

meditation while focusing on God or breath etc., and when samadhi

state leaves us it goes back to same Consciousness just as wave

arising and vanishing back to ocean(water really). We know " we " are

Ocean of Consciousness even when waves arise or vanish.

 

Nirvikalpa samadhi is when Consciousness is devoid of objects

experienced only as thoughts in mind and sensations/feelings in

body. In otherword, Consciousness being Conscious of ITSELF,

liberating from limitations of objects.

Due to desires, vaasanas, attachments etc one is constantly occupied

by objects of perceptions and/or feelings such as anger, jealousy,

envy etc, samadhi state is not manifest as Consciousness is

identified with such objects.

 

When understanding takes place through inquiy, contemplations,

meditation(if one has inclination to path of Gyan), then one

realizes one is not body-mind based separate person, and samadhi

happens naturally. When samadhi state happens naturally regardless

of presence ot abscence of objects as perceptions, conceptions,

arising in Consciousness, Consciousness is liberated and a state of

Sahaj samadhi happens. (Many saints such as Ramana Maharshi,

Ramkrishna Paramhansa were in such a state while being engaged in

activities, as I know).

 

It is apperception meaning Consciousness being conscious of Itself

(Sat-Chit-Ananda swarupa) rather than objects, in all situations.

(Like wave now knows it is really water even as it appears to be

wave from the mind's perspective).

Such realization is of primary importance, and samadhi state may be

an indication only.

 

It is equally possible to realize this by total Devotion, or being

engaged in selfless Karma within guidelines of Dharma. In such

pursuits Grace is bestowed upon Sadhakas by Bhgwaan. Bliss, Love,

Peace, Harmony, Intelligence, Beauty manifest in life of such a

sadhaka which is the same experience of oneness as narrated by

realized ones or Bhagwaan's devotees!

To summarize, it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neither

is the only path to liberation! Realization through spiritual

sadhana with predominence of Self-inquiry, Devotion, or Karma-Yoga

can lead to ultimate Grace! One knows undoubtedly ONE is

Consciousness(Chit), which is Impersonal Being(sat), and therefore

is at the same time Fullness-Bliss(Anada)!

 

Namaskar.....

 

Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

 

Moksha need not neccesarily by Yoga or become a brahma gnani to

released from cycle of life, in Krishna clearly says easiest way to

attain nirvana is thru true love towards him, thru gnana and yoga

the yogi or upasaka should fix a time to leave this itself requires

lot of knowledge and takes many births.

 

So when easily gnana moksha is available why to go for toughest

thing.

 

But a good food contains all items Dhyana is neccessary along with

Bhakthi to attain the goal.

 

But any one who has read the Gita easily can understand and manage

both.

 

MANY HAVE DOUBTS WHEN KRIHNA SAYS BHAKTHI TAKES U TO MOKSHA THE EASY

WAY AND ALSO MENTIONS TO CONCENTRATE ON HIM(dhyana) AND ALSO MENTIONS

TO KARMA YOGA.

 

WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND WE SHOULD PLAY MUTIPLE MARGAS (path) TO ATTAIN

MOKSHA (salvation).

 

PLEASE READ GITA BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION ASK URSELF ASK LORD INSIDE

YOU.

 

Shapur Shiva

-------------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

Post message:

Subscribe: -

Un: -

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

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Posted
Posted

HARIOM,

 

Proponents of Dhyana Yoga (Yoga of Meditation)say one must attain

Nivikalp samadhi (a very difficult task for most people) to

completely eradicate the VASANAS (desires, passions, impressions

remaining in the mind) from the causal body. Thus they express that

any one of the other paths of the Holy Gita is not a sufficient

condition for mukti (liberation, benediction, release from rebirth

in the world, emancipation). Please remove my doubts completely and

in detail.

 

HariOm Roy

----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

dear sadaks,

Nirvikalpa samadhi etc are difficult tasks which are performed by

yogis. Vasanas cannot go that easily. But short cut is Bakthi Marg.

In this Marg Bagavan comes to you rather than you searching HIM.

Examples: Bagavan came to numerous saints, played with them, lived

with them, protected them Baktha Gora, Purander Doss, Tukaram,

Pundalikan, Sakubai, Meera bai etc etc. These saints underwent

sufferings (which we feel) but they hardly knew what was happening.

Bakthi is surrender. Easy and simple way. Here your effort is Zero.

In samadhi level your effort is maximum.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Hari Om.

 

I saw a kitten in my friend's house today.

It had lost its mother soon after it was born.

It never knew that it was a kitten and left alone.

without any observation or company of a cat, it does exactly

what a cat does.

To pass stool it dug a pit and pushed the mud back after passing

stool.

Now tell me who taught it to behave like a cat?

Its the impression of the brain that was formed when it was in its

mother's womb.

The same way all of act according to the impressions that are in our

brain from the day we entered our mother's womb.

This way we carry the good and bad deeds of previous birth

when we enter our mother's womb.

The karma cycle starts here for this birth.

For the good deeds we get comfort and for the bad deeds we

getdiscomfort

and misery.

MOKSHA IS THE PROCESS BY WHICH WE RELIEVE URSELVES

 

FROM THIS CYCLE OF KARMA.

 

This can be attained only by doing Sadhana.

Ths Sadhana takes us to SAMADHI.

Samadhi is the state where our soul light removes our karma.

This is the TRUTH OF GEETHA TOLD BY KRUSHNA IN KAPILA CHARITHRAM.

THis is known as Shankya Yoga in GEETHA.

with regards,

 

Usha sridhar

----------------------------

 

Yogiraj Madhvacarya's Response (Posted by HariOm Roy for the benefit

of the group)

 

It is a fact that unless one reaches into the causal body and works

at it on the causal plane, one cannot completely eradicate the

vasanas. Gita has given the path of buddhi yoga in chapter two,

especially in the last portion of chapter two as the solution and

instead of nirvikalpa, we get the term brahmanirvanam.

 

Gita enunciated two paths as karma yoga and jnana yoga. The path of

jnana yoga has within it the potential to attain the eradications of

the vasanas, but in my opinion the path of karma yoga will not

remove the vasanas but will remove most of the inconvenient or

undesirable vasanas.

 

If someone does not see that the path of jnana yoga and particularly

the buddhi yoga techniques discussed by Sri Krishna as containing

the solution of the problem of the vasanas, it means that the person

does not understand the Sanskrit terms and is giving those terms

insufficient meanings.

 

But in that case if one goes to the Uddhava Gita, one will get a

more in-depth and detailed instruction for that jnana yoga and then

one's doubts about Gita should be removed.

 

Buddhi yoga as given in Bhagavad Gita is a practice which was taught

by Sri Krishna to both the jnana yogis and the karma yogis. Karma

yogis students like Arjuna got that skill through the practice of

elementary meditation yoga and with that psychological proficiency,

they applied this to their life in the cultural world, as

politicians, state officials and state warriors. The proficiency of

this for a karma yogi shows by his detachment when punishing and

impartiality when dealing with citizens. Thus Krishna requested

Arjuna to exhibit the buddhi yoga proficient on the battlefield of

Kurukshetra, just as Janak and other legendary kings did in the

Vedic history.

 

Basically speaking the meditative yoga practice of those karma yogis

ended with this buddhi yoga and its result in their life was

highlighted by their detachment and impartially.

 

First we begin by defining yoga and to do so we must go to

Patanjali. He gave us an eight (8) part system which become known

also as Ashtanga yoga.

 

Thus bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga. Buddhi yoga is buddhi+yoga. Jnana

yoga is jnana+yoga. Atma yoga is atma+ yoga and so on. In this way

we will be clear when we use these terms. Now if we agree that

bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga, then what is bhakti? The answer is

that bhakti is bhakti. The next question is : Can someone reach

perfection by bhakti alone.. And the answer is that scriptures give

us examples of persons who did just that, persons like the gopis.

 

Then there is another question, why do yoga and then apply it to

bhakti if one can reach perfection by bhakti alone. The answer is

obvious, that it would be foolish to do yoga and apply bhakti if you

can reach perfection by bhakti alone. Therefore we accept that only

those who will fail at bhakti by itself should do yoga and then do

bhakti.

 

But then there is another question as to why even bother with yoga .

The answer to that is given by Sri Krishna when he defined the

purpose of yoga as atmavishuddha in Chapter 6 verse 12.

 

Therefore if one finds that his or her bhakti is not getting

perfection, that person may do yoga for purification of the psyche

(atma), the psychological energies. Then when yoga is successful in

that purpose, he or she can apply bhakti and get the desired success.

 

Buddhi yoga? What is that?

 

That is the application of yoga practice to curbing and purifying

the intellect, the buddhi. It has to do with that one aspect only,

the buddhi. It concerns nothing else. It is the process of curbing

the buddhi by meditational techniques.

 

The mastership of the 5th pratyahar stage of yoga and the beginning

practice of the 6th dharana stage concerns buddhi yoga, the curbing

and subjugation of the buddhi organ in the subtle body.

 

The difficulty with implementing the removal of the vasanas, has to

do with the deficiency of the human being. This deficiency comes

from the natural way which is to focus into the gross plane of

existence. Due to that we have no accurate knowledge or experience

of the subtle existence. And to make matters worse, the causal plane

is even more abstract than the subtle level.

 

How many of us are willing to take up a sadhana which would cause an

increase in subtle perception? How many of us would make that our

top priority to do whatever would be necessary to shut down most of

our physical interest and to put our attention over to the subtle

side.

 

I feel this is our impediment.

 

The causal level, which has within it the seed energies (bija) of

the vasanas, cannot be reached until we develop very subtle

perception. How can you affect something which you can neither see

nor feel. So first we have to get subtle vision then super subtle

vision then we can tackle the root energies of the vasanas which

influence and dominate us on this level.

 

From this physical plane we cannot eradicate the vasanas because

their supportive and motivational roots are coming from the causal

level. We can however limited their main manifestation if we apply

strong moral principles in an attempt to restrict vices and promote

a righteous lifestyle (dharma).

 

Over time of practicing dharma, one develops some resistance to some

of the very gross and vulgar vasanas. From this one develops a

strength to challenge the motivational forces, and then gradually

one develops introspection and moves into higher yoga practice. Thus

karma yoga serves as a stepping stone to jnana yoga which is the

practice for directly challenging the vasanas first in the subtle

body and then at their rooting on the causal plane.

 

One easy way to understand the difference between nirvikalpa and

savikalpa samadhi is through the example of one electric circuit

which has only a light bulb and another circuit which has a light

bulb and a meter.

 

The electric supply or generator would serve as representing God or

representing the supreme brahman, while the bulb and its little

circuit presents the jiva or yogi. When we plug the circuit into the

electric supply, the light glows, because it is connected to that

power..

 

In the second example there is a meter attached to the bulb ,

whereby when the circuit is plugged in, the bulb glows but the meter

also registers a certain quality of current.

 

In the first example the bulb gets the full current and is fully

charged with the supreme power, while in the second example only

some of the current is used by the bulb since the meter which

measures the current, absorbs some of the electric force.

 

Thus in the second example the yogi's mind which measures and

analyzes the power which flows from the Supreme, causes a reduction

in his contact with the Supreme power.

 

The advantage of the first example is that the yogi gets to feel the

full supreme power, while in the second example the yogi cannot

experience the full power but is better able to describe his

experience because he was able to measure the intensity of the

supreme power/

 

In the first example, after the samadhi the yogi might say, " I

experience it but there is no way that I can describe it to you. It

was fully subjective. It was not objective. It was like: I was it

and it was me. "

 

In the second case the yogi might say, " I measured it as I

experienced it. I will describe it to you. I was objective to it.

 

Madhavacharya (Michael Beloved)

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Please correct the misconcept that Holy Gita is insufficient by

reading and assimilating verse 66 of chapter 18. What is Moksh? What

is Mukti? What is Nirvan? What is Realization of Self? All these are

beyond body mind mechanism whereas samadhi of any type or kind is

within it and ends with vyutthaan.

please be specific as to how and where Gita is found insufficient.

Thanks and Regards,

Sarvottam

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Just a quick observation on Divakaranji's post.

Sure, it is a great worship when whatever we do as Krishnaarpanam.

Such sustained worshiping attitude can lead one to Moksha because

the highest one can offer(arpana to Krishna) is oneself-ego in total

surrender!

But Moksha or Mukti is not a matter of individual perception, rather

freedom from Individuality itself! Moksha is when " individual " is

seen as illusion, and all his/her perceptions including " I am an

individual with this body-mind " dissolves into THAT which IS! It is

the only Reality/Atman/Brahman/God and cannot be perceived(by mind)

because IT perceives everything, even mind-body-world.

Namaskar.............

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

My dear Sadhak Gurujan,

When whatever we do is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itself

constitutes worship. Whether Moksha or Mukti is thus achieved is a

matter of individual perception.

 

Subbanarasu Divakaran

 

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In my seeing, it is the most important that one realizes what one

truly IS!, not as one thinks or believes one is! Samadhi as I

understand it, is a state which comes and goes, so " we " cannot be

such a state. We are THAT whatever THAT may be, in which such states

come and go, but we don't ever come or go as Consciousness!

Upon investigation we may discover that such state as savikalpa

samadhi arises in our Consciousness (which is also our Beingness) in

meditation while focusing on God or breath etc., and when samadhi

state leaves us it goes back to same Consciousness just as wave

arising and vanishing back to ocean(water really). We know " we " are

Ocean of Consciousness even when waves arise or vanish.

 

Nirvikalpa samadhi is when Consciousness is devoid of objects

experienced only as thoughts in mind and sensations/feelings in

body. In otherword, Consciousness being Conscious of ITSELF,

liberating from limitations of objects.

Due to desires, vaasanas, attachments etc one is constantly occupied

by objects of perceptions and/or feelings such as anger, jealousy,

envy etc, samadhi state is not manifest as Consciousness is

identified with such objects.

 

When understanding takes place through inquiy, contemplations,

meditation(if one has inclination to path of Gyan), then one

realizes one is not body-mind based separate person, and samadhi

happens naturally. When samadhi state happens naturally regardless

of presence ot abscence of objects as perceptions, conceptions,

arising in Consciousness, Consciousness is liberated and a state of

Sahaj samadhi happens. (Many saints such as Ramana Maharshi,

Ramkrishna Paramhansa were in such a state while being engaged in

activities, as I know).

 

It is apperception meaning Consciousness being conscious of Itself

(Sat-Chit-Ananda swarupa) rather than objects, in all situations.

(Like wave now knows it is really water even as it appears to be

wave from the mind's perspective).

Such realization is of primary importance, and samadhi state may be

an indication only.

 

It is equally possible to realize this by total Devotion, or being

engaged in selfless Karma within guidelines of Dharma. In such

pursuits Grace is bestowed upon Sadhakas by Bhgwaan. Bliss, Love,

Peace, Harmony, Intelligence, Beauty manifest in life of such a

sadhaka which is the same experience of oneness as narrated by

realized ones or Bhagwaan's devotees!

To summarize, it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neither

is the only path to liberation! Realization through spiritual

sadhana with predominence of Self-inquiry, Devotion, or Karma-Yoga

can lead to ultimate Grace! One knows undoubtedly ONE is

Consciousness(Chit), which is Impersonal Being(sat), and therefore

is at the same time Fullness-Bliss(Anada)!

 

Namaskar.....

 

Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

 

Moksha need not neccesarily by Yoga or become a brahma gnani to

released from cycle of life, in Krishna clearly says easiest way to

attain nirvana is thru true love towards him, thru gnana and yoga

the yogi or upasaka should fix a time to leave this itself requires

lot of knowledge and takes many births.

 

So when easily gnana moksha is available why to go for toughest

thing.

 

But a good food contains all items Dhyana is neccessary along with

Bhakthi to attain the goal.

 

But any one who has read the Gita easily can understand and manage

both.

 

MANY HAVE DOUBTS WHEN KRIHNA SAYS BHAKTHI TAKES U TO MOKSHA THE EASY

WAY AND ALSO MENTIONS TO CONCENTRATE ON HIM(dhyana) AND ALSO MENTIONS

TO KARMA YOGA.

 

WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND WE SHOULD PLAY MUTIPLE MARGAS (path) TO ATTAIN

MOKSHA (salvation).

 

PLEASE READ GITA BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION ASK URSELF ASK LORD INSIDE

YOU.

 

Shapur Shiva

-------------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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HARIOM,

 

Proponents of Dhyana Yoga (Yoga of Meditation)say one must attain

Nivikalp samadhi (a very difficult task for most people) to

completely eradicate the VASANAS (desires, passions, impressions

remaining in the mind) from the causal body. Thus they express that

any one of the other paths of the Holy Gita is not a sufficient

condition for mukti (liberation, benediction, release from rebirth

in the world, emancipation). Please remove my doubts completely and

in detail.

 

Hari Om Roy

----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Dear Sadaks,

Bhagavan has said to Arjuna, " When I (GOD) am in front why you want

to know about all this knowledge " . Samadhi levels, different types

of yogas, Etc is not necessary when Bhagavan comes to you. Buddhi +

yoga = Buddhi yoga. So there is prefix Buddhi to yoga. So also in

other cases. But for Bakthi (worship, devotion, love of God) there

is no prefix. Why? Because Bakthi is crown of all spiritual

practices. Bakthi is unconditional constant and No change in any

condition in love towards GOD. Besides what Bakthi makes? All yogas

and samadhi levels in the world put together is practice to silence

the mind from totally to remove Vasanas. This type of practices by

one` s effort. So Bhagavan just remains witness to see how far you

can succeed. Bhagavan has clearly said in Geetha that by Yoga or by

Tapas (austerities) one can reach HIM after serveral births.

Bhagavan in same Geetha has also clearly said that HE can liberate a

person in one single (same Jalma) by HIS Sankalpa (resolve, vow).

Does it not seem contradictory? NO. First instance you are making

Sankalpa (will, resolve, intentions) to reach HIM. Whereas in second

instance Bagavan is making HIS sankalpa (resolve) to liberate you.

Simple Example: 1) Finite is trying to reach infinite. (2) Infinite

is trying to pull finite. Which will succeed? In prakuthi also Mass

can attract molecule. Bagavan has said that HE takes care of HIS

bhakta (devotees), if bhakta fails in his attempt. Bagavan has

given a designation as " Yoga Brasta " to such soul failed in bakthi

(worship and devotion).

In Sri Ranga Mahatyiyam script, mother Lakshmi points out to a

bhakta saying that he is doing mistakes. Bhagavan immediately says

to mother Lakshmi, " Here after YOU take care of YOUR baktha and I

(Bagavan) will take care of MY baktha " . One can see from scripts

that yogis are subjected to abuse and torcher. Where as Bakthas are

immediately rescued by Bagavan. When Bagavan has said in simple

terms, " Surrender to ME " , means love (Bhakti) why ponder over many

things.

Lastly the cat story of doing certain practices is Gift from Bagavan

to animals alone called Instinct. We humans have No instinct and the

gift of intellect from God is unused.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

------------------------

In our religion, the first 25 years are spent in learning, next 25

in married life, next 25 in religious activities with one's spouse

and the last 25 in sanyas. This is the time when one is free from

worldly duties and can totally concentrate(dhyan) or meditate and

become one with the Self and attain Nirvikalp samadhi and moksha or

liberation from the endless cycle of birth and death. There are

other paths like Karm yog and Gyan yog also but these take time.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

--------------------------

 

 

--------------------------

 

dear sadaks,

Nirvikalpa samadhi etc are difficult tasks which are performed by

yogis. Vasanas cannot go that easily. But short cut is Bakthi Marg.

In this Marg Bagavan comes to you rather than you searching HIM.

Examples: Bagavan came to numerous saints, played with them, lived

with them, protected them Baktha Gora, Purander Doss, Tukaram,

Pundalikan, Sakubai, Meera bai etc etc. These saints underwent

sufferings (which we feel) but they hardly knew what was happening.

Bakthi is surrender. Easy and simple way. Here your effort is Zero.

In samadhi level your effort is maximum.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

 

Hari Om.

 

I saw a kitten in my friend's house today.

It had lost its mother soon after it was born.

It never knew that it was a kitten and left alone.

without any observation or company of a cat, it does exactly

what a cat does.

To pass stool it dug a pit and pushed the mud back after passing

stool.

Now tell me who taught it to behave like a cat?

Its the impression of the brain that was formed when it was in its

mother's womb.

The same way all of act according to the impressions that are in our

brain from the day we entered our mother's womb.

This way we carry the good and bad deeds of previous birth

when we enter our mother's womb.

The karma cycle starts here for this birth.

For the good deeds we get comfort and for the bad deeds we

getdiscomfort

and misery.

MOKSHA IS THE PROCESS BY WHICH WE RELIEVE URSELVES

 

FROM THIS CYCLE OF KARMA.

 

This can be attained only by doing Sadhana.

Ths Sadhana takes us to SAMADHI.

Samadhi is the state where our soul light removes our karma.

This is the TRUTH OF GEETHA TOLD BY KRUSHNA IN KAPILA CHARITHRAM.

THis is known as Shankya Yoga in GEETHA.

with regards,

 

Usha sridhar

----------------------------

 

Yogiraj Madhvacarya's Response (Posted by HariOm Roy for the benefit

of the group)

 

It is a fact that unless one reaches into the causal body and works

at it on the causal plane, one cannot completely eradicate the

vasanas. Gita has given the path of buddhi yoga in chapter two,

especially in the last portion of chapter two as the solution and

instead of nirvikalpa, we get the term brahmanirvanam.

 

Gita enunciated two paths as karma yoga and jnana yoga. The path of

jnana yoga has within it the potential to attain the eradications of

the vasanas, but in my opinion the path of karma yoga will not

remove the vasanas but will remove most of the inconvenient or

undesirable vasanas.

 

If someone does not see that the path of jnana yoga and particularly

the buddhi yoga techniques discussed by Sri Krishna as containing

the solution of the problem of the vasanas, it means that the person

does not understand the Sanskrit terms and is giving those terms

insufficient meanings.

 

But in that case if one goes to the Uddhava Gita, one will get a

more in-depth and detailed instruction for that jnana yoga and then

one's doubts about Gita should be removed.

 

Buddhi yoga as given in Bhagavad Gita is a practice which was taught

by Sri Krishna to both the jnana yogis and the karma yogis. Karma

yogis students like Arjuna got that skill through the practice of

elementary meditation yoga and with that psychological proficiency,

they applied this to their life in the cultural world, as

politicians, state officials and state warriors. The proficiency of

this for a karma yogi shows by his detachment when punishing and

impartiality when dealing with citizens. Thus Krishna requested

Arjuna to exhibit the buddhi yoga proficient on the battlefield of

Kurukshetra, just as Janak and other legendary kings did in the

Vedic history.

 

Basically speaking the meditative yoga practice of those karma yogis

ended with this buddhi yoga and its result in their life was

highlighted by their detachment and impartially.

 

First we begin by defining yoga and to do so we must go to

Patanjali. He gave us an eight (8) part system which become known

also as Ashtanga yoga.

 

Thus bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga. Buddhi yoga is buddhi+yoga. Jnana

yoga is jnana+yoga. Atma yoga is atma+ yoga and so on. In this way

we will be clear when we use these terms. Now if we agree that

bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga, then what is bhakti? The answer is

that bhakti is bhakti. The next question is : Can someone reach

perfection by bhakti alone.. And the answer is that scriptures give

us examples of persons who did just that, persons like the gopis.

 

Then there is another question, why do yoga and then apply it to

bhakti if one can reach perfection by bhakti alone. The answer is

obvious, that it would be foolish to do yoga and apply bhakti if you

can reach perfection by bhakti alone. Therefore we accept that only

those who will fail at bhakti by itself should do yoga and then do

bhakti.

 

But then there is another question as to why even bother with yoga .

The answer to that is given by Sri Krishna when he defined the

purpose of yoga as atmavishuddha in Chapter 6 verse 12.

 

Therefore if one finds that his or her bhakti is not getting

perfection, that person may do yoga for purification of the psyche

(atma), the psychological energies. Then when yoga is successful in

that purpose, he or she can apply bhakti and get the desired success.

 

Buddhi yoga? What is that?

 

That is the application of yoga practice to curbing and purifying

the intellect, the buddhi. It has to do with that one aspect only,

the buddhi. It concerns nothing else. It is the process of curbing

the buddhi by meditational techniques.

 

The mastership of the 5th pratyahar stage of yoga and the beginning

practice of the 6th dharana stage concerns buddhi yoga, the curbing

and subjugation of the buddhi organ in the subtle body.

 

The difficulty with implementing the removal of the vasanas, has to

do with the deficiency of the human being. This deficiency comes

from the natural way which is to focus into the gross plane of

existence. Due to that we have no accurate knowledge or experience

of the subtle existence. And to make matters worse, the causal plane

is even more abstract than the subtle level.

 

How many of us are willing to take up a sadhana which would cause an

increase in subtle perception? How many of us would make that our

top priority to do whatever would be necessary to shut down most of

our physical interest and to put our attention over to the subtle

side.

 

I feel this is our impediment.

 

The causal level, which has within it the seed energies (bija) of

the vasanas, cannot be reached until we develop very subtle

perception. How can you affect something which you can neither see

nor feel. So first we have to get subtle vision then super subtle

vision then we can tackle the root energies of the vasanas which

influence and dominate us on this level.

 

From this physical plane we cannot eradicate the vasanas because

their supportive and motivational roots are coming from the causal

level. We can however limited their main manifestation if we apply

strong moral principles in an attempt to restrict vices and promote

a righteous lifestyle (dharma).

 

Over time of practicing dharma, one develops some resistance to some

of the very gross and vulgar vasanas. From this one develops a

strength to challenge the motivational forces, and then gradually

one develops introspection and moves into higher yoga practice. Thus

karma yoga serves as a stepping stone to jnana yoga which is the

practice for directly challenging the vasanas first in the subtle

body and then at their rooting on the causal plane.

 

One easy way to understand the difference between nirvikalpa and

savikalpa samadhi is through the example of one electric circuit

which has only a light bulb and another circuit which has a light

bulb and a meter.

 

The electric supply or generator would serve as representing God or

representing the supreme brahman, while the bulb and its little

circuit presents the jiva or yogi. When we plug the circuit into the

electric supply, the light glows, because it is connected to that

power..

 

In the second example there is a meter attached to the bulb ,

whereby when the circuit is plugged in, the bulb glows but the meter

also registers a certain quality of current.

 

In the first example the bulb gets the full current and is fully

charged with the supreme power, while in the second example only

some of the current is used by the bulb since the meter which

measures the current, absorbs some of the electric force.

 

Thus in the second example the yogi's mind which measures and

analyzes the power which flows from the Supreme, causes a reduction

in his contact with the Supreme power.

 

The advantage of the first example is that the yogi gets to feel the

full supreme power, while in the second example the yogi cannot

experience the full power but is better able to describe his

experience because he was able to measure the intensity of the

supreme power/

 

In the first example, after the samadhi the yogi might say, " I

experience it but there is no way that I can describe it to you. It

was fully subjective. It was not objective. It was like: I was it

and it was me. "

 

In the second case the yogi might say, " I measured it as I

experienced it. I will describe it to you. I was objective to it.

 

Madhavacharya (Michael Beloved)

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Please correct the misconcept that Holy Gita is insufficient by

reading and assimilating verse 66 of chapter 18. What is Moksh? What

is Mukti? What is Nirvan? What is Realization of Self? All these are

beyond body mind mechanism whereas samadhi of any type or kind is

within it and ends with vyutthaan.

please be specific as to how and where Gita is found insufficient.

Thanks and Regards,

Sarvottam

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Just a quick observation on Divakaranji's post.

Sure, it is a great worship when whatever we do as Krishnaarpanam.

Such sustained worshiping attitude can lead one to Moksha because

the highest one can offer(arpana to Krishna) is oneself-ego in total

surrender!

But Moksha or Mukti is not a matter of individual perception, rather

freedom from Individuality itself! Moksha is when " individual " is

seen as illusion, and all his/her perceptions including " I am an

individual with this body-mind " dissolves into THAT which IS! It is

the only Reality/Atman/Brahman/God and cannot be perceived(by mind)

because IT perceives everything, even mind-body-world.

Namaskar.............

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

My dear Sadhak Gurujan,

When whatever we do is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itself

constitutes worship. Whether Moksha or Mukti is thus achieved is a

matter of individual perception.

 

Subbanarasu Divakaran

 

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In my seeing, it is the most important that one realizes what one

truly IS!, not as one thinks or believes one is! Samadhi as I

understand it, is a state which comes and goes, so " we " cannot be

such a state. We are THAT whatever THAT may be, in which such states

come and go, but we don't ever come or go as Consciousness!

Upon investigation we may discover that such state as savikalpa

samadhi arises in our Consciousness (which is also our Beingness) in

meditation while focusing on God or breath etc., and when samadhi

state leaves us it goes back to same Consciousness just as wave

arising and vanishing back to ocean(water really). We know " we " are

Ocean of Consciousness even when waves arise or vanish.

 

Nirvikalpa samadhi is when Consciousness is devoid of objects

experienced only as thoughts in mind and sensations/feelings in

body. In otherword, Consciousness being Conscious of ITSELF,

liberating from limitations of objects.

Due to desires, vaasanas, attachments etc one is constantly occupied

by objects of perceptions and/or feelings such as anger, jealousy,

envy etc, samadhi state is not manifest as Consciousness is

identified with such objects.

 

When understanding takes place through inquiy, contemplations,

meditation(if one has inclination to path of Gyan), then one

realizes one is not body-mind based separate person, and samadhi

happens naturally. When samadhi state happens naturally regardless

of presence ot abscence of objects as perceptions, conceptions,

arising in Consciousness, Consciousness is liberated and a state of

Sahaj samadhi happens. (Many saints such as Ramana Maharshi,

Ramkrishna Paramhansa were in such a state while being engaged in

activities, as I know).

 

It is apperception meaning Consciousness being conscious of Itself

(Sat-Chit-Ananda swarupa) rather than objects, in all situations.

(Like wave now knows it is really water even as it appears to be

wave from the mind's perspective).

Such realization is of primary importance, and samadhi state may be

an indication only.

 

It is equally possible to realize this by total Devotion, or being

engaged in selfless Karma within guidelines of Dharma. In such

pursuits Grace is bestowed upon Sadhakas by Bhgwaan. Bliss, Love,

Peace, Harmony, Intelligence, Beauty manifest in life of such a

sadhaka which is the same experience of oneness as narrated by

realized ones or Bhagwaan's devotees!

To summarize, it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neither

is the only path to liberation! Realization through spiritual

sadhana with predominence of Self-inquiry, Devotion, or Karma-Yoga

can lead to ultimate Grace! One knows undoubtedly ONE is

Consciousness(Chit), which is Impersonal Being(sat), and therefore

is at the same time Fullness-Bliss(Anada)!

 

Namaskar.....

 

Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

 

Moksha need not neccesarily by Yoga or become a brahma gnani to

released from cycle of life, in Krishna clearly says easiest way to

attain nirvana is thru true love towards him, thru gnana and yoga

the yogi or upasaka should fix a time to leave this itself requires

lot of knowledge and takes many births.

 

So when easily gnana moksha is available why to go for toughest

thing.

 

But a good food contains all items Dhyana is neccessary along with

Bhakthi to attain the goal.

 

But any one who has read the Gita easily can understand and manage

both.

 

MANY HAVE DOUBTS WHEN KRIHNA SAYS BHAKTHI TAKES U TO MOKSHA THE EASY

WAY AND ALSO MENTIONS TO CONCENTRATE ON HIM(dhyana) AND ALSO MENTIONS

TO KARMA YOGA.

 

WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND WE SHOULD PLAY MUTIPLE MARGAS (path) TO ATTAIN

MOKSHA (salvation).

 

PLEASE READ GITA BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION ASK URSELF ASK LORD INSIDE

YOU.

 

Shapur Shiva

-------------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted
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HARIOM,

 

Proponents of Dhyana Yoga (Yoga of Meditation)say one must attain

Nivikalp samadhi (a very difficult task for most people) to

completely eradicate the VASANAS (desires, passions, impressions

remaining in the mind) from the causal body. Thus they express that

any one of the other paths of the Holy Gita is not a sufficient

condition for mukti (liberation, benediction, release from rebirth

in the world, emancipation). Please remove my doubts completely and

in detail.

 

Hari Om Roy

----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

No ! Samadhi is certainly not a necessary condition for Moksha-

the " mineness " - an exclusive " mineness " with Paramatma is however a

desirable requirement for liberation. In fact, disconnection with

inert is essential condition for Liberation- whether that comes

through Karma Yoga or Jnana Yoga. For Bhakti Yoga , Mineness with

Paramatma is essential.

 

There is one more type of Samadhi- called " Sahaj Samadhi " . That is

necessary end result of liberation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

This a question filled with contradictions and inconsistencies.

 

Neither Samadhi is a condition nor Moksha a target.

 

State where no conditions can raise from, where no conditions can

survive and where all the conditions are completely obliterated is

Samadhi.

 

State where no targets can emerge from, where no targets can persist

and where all the targets are completely annihilated is Moksha.

 

They are synanmous to each other where there cannot be any necessity

or requirement as such.

 

Therefore, this question is redundant in itself for me.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

Bhagavan has said to Arjuna, " When I (GOD) am in front why you want

to know about all this knowledge " . Samadhi levels, different types

of yogas, Etc is not necessary when Bhagavan comes to you. Buddhi +

yoga = Buddhi yoga. So there is prefix Buddhi to yoga. So also in

other cases. But for Bakthi (worship, devotion, love of God) there

is no prefix. Why? Because Bakthi is crown of all spiritual

practices. Bakthi is unconditional constant and No change in any

condition in love towards GOD. Besides what Bakthi makes? All yogas

and samadhi levels in the world put together is practice to silence

the mind from totally to remove Vasanas. This type of practices by

one` s effort. So Bhagavan just remains witness to see how far you

can succeed. Bhagavan has clearly said in Geetha that by Yoga or by

Tapas (austerities) one can reach HIM after serveral births.

Bhagavan in same Geetha has also clearly said that HE can liberate a

person in one single (same Jalma) by HIS Sankalpa (resolve, vow).

Does it not seem contradictory? NO. First instance you are making

Sankalpa (will, resolve, intentions) to reach HIM. Whereas in second

instance Bagavan is making HIS sankalpa (resolve) to liberate you.

Simple Example: 1) Finite is trying to reach infinite. (2) Infinite

is trying to pull finite. Which will succeed? In prakuthi also Mass

can attract molecule. Bagavan has said that HE takes care of HIS

bhakta (devotees), if bhakta fails in his attempt. Bagavan has

given a designation as " Yoga Brasta " to such soul failed in bakthi

(worship and devotion).

In Sri Ranga Mahatyiyam script, mother Lakshmi points out to a

bhakta saying that he is doing mistakes. Bhagavan immediately says

to mother Lakshmi, " Here after YOU take care of YOUR baktha and I

(Bagavan) will take care of MY baktha " . One can see from scripts

that yogis are subjected to abuse and torcher. Where as Bakthas are

immediately rescued by Bagavan. When Bagavan has said in simple

terms, " Surrender to ME " , means love (Bhakti) why ponder over many

things.

Lastly the cat story of doing certain practices is Gift from Bagavan

to animals alone called Instinct. We humans have No instinct and the

gift of intellect from God is unused.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

------------------------

In our religion, the first 25 years are spent in learning, next 25

in married life, next 25 in religious activities with one's spouse

and the last 25 in sanyas. This is the time when one is free from

worldly duties and can totally concentrate(dhyan) or meditate and

become one with the Self and attain Nirvikalp samadhi and moksha or

liberation from the endless cycle of birth and death. There are

other paths like Karm yog and Gyan yog also but these take time.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

--------------------------

 

 

--------------------------

 

dear sadaks,

Nirvikalpa samadhi etc are difficult tasks which are performed by

yogis. Vasanas cannot go that easily. But short cut is Bakthi Marg.

In this Marg Bagavan comes to you rather than you searching HIM.

Examples: Bagavan came to numerous saints, played with them, lived

with them, protected them Baktha Gora, Purander Doss, Tukaram,

Pundalikan, Sakubai, Meera bai etc etc. These saints underwent

sufferings (which we feel) but they hardly knew what was happening.

Bakthi is surrender. Easy and simple way. Here your effort is Zero.

In samadhi level your effort is maximum.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

 

Hari Om.

 

I saw a kitten in my friend's house today.

It had lost its mother soon after it was born.

It never knew that it was a kitten and left alone.

without any observation or company of a cat, it does exactly

what a cat does.

To pass stool it dug a pit and pushed the mud back after passing

stool.

Now tell me who taught it to behave like a cat?

Its the impression of the brain that was formed when it was in its

mother's womb.

The same way all of act according to the impressions that are in our

brain from the day we entered our mother's womb.

This way we carry the good and bad deeds of previous birth

when we enter our mother's womb.

The karma cycle starts here for this birth.

For the good deeds we get comfort and for the bad deeds we

getdiscomfort

and misery.

MOKSHA IS THE PROCESS BY WHICH WE RELIEVE URSELVES

 

FROM THIS CYCLE OF KARMA.

 

This can be attained only by doing Sadhana.

Ths Sadhana takes us to SAMADHI.

Samadhi is the state where our soul light removes our karma.

This is the TRUTH OF GEETHA TOLD BY KRUSHNA IN KAPILA CHARITHRAM.

THis is known as Shankya Yoga in GEETHA.

with regards,

 

Usha sridhar

----------------------------

 

Yogiraj Madhvacarya's Response (Posted by HariOm Roy for the benefit

of the group)

 

It is a fact that unless one reaches into the causal body and works

at it on the causal plane, one cannot completely eradicate the

vasanas. Gita has given the path of buddhi yoga in chapter two,

especially in the last portion of chapter two as the solution and

instead of nirvikalpa, we get the term brahmanirvanam.

 

Gita enunciated two paths as karma yoga and jnana yoga. The path of

jnana yoga has within it the potential to attain the eradications of

the vasanas, but in my opinion the path of karma yoga will not

remove the vasanas but will remove most of the inconvenient or

undesirable vasanas.

 

If someone does not see that the path of jnana yoga and particularly

the buddhi yoga techniques discussed by Sri Krishna as containing

the solution of the problem of the vasanas, it means that the person

does not understand the Sanskrit terms and is giving those terms

insufficient meanings.

 

But in that case if one goes to the Uddhava Gita, one will get a

more in-depth and detailed instruction for that jnana yoga and then

one's doubts about Gita should be removed.

 

Buddhi yoga as given in Bhagavad Gita is a practice which was taught

by Sri Krishna to both the jnana yogis and the karma yogis. Karma

yogis students like Arjuna got that skill through the practice of

elementary meditation yoga and with that psychological proficiency,

they applied this to their life in the cultural world, as

politicians, state officials and state warriors. The proficiency of

this for a karma yogi shows by his detachment when punishing and

impartiality when dealing with citizens. Thus Krishna requested

Arjuna to exhibit the buddhi yoga proficient on the battlefield of

Kurukshetra, just as Janak and other legendary kings did in the

Vedic history.

 

Basically speaking the meditative yoga practice of those karma yogis

ended with this buddhi yoga and its result in their life was

highlighted by their detachment and impartially.

 

First we begin by defining yoga and to do so we must go to

Patanjali. He gave us an eight (8) part system which become known

also as Ashtanga yoga.

 

Thus bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga. Buddhi yoga is buddhi+yoga. Jnana

yoga is jnana+yoga. Atma yoga is atma+ yoga and so on. In this way

we will be clear when we use these terms. Now if we agree that

bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga, then what is bhakti? The answer is

that bhakti is bhakti. The next question is : Can someone reach

perfection by bhakti alone.. And the answer is that scriptures give

us examples of persons who did just that, persons like the gopis.

 

Then there is another question, why do yoga and then apply it to

bhakti if one can reach perfection by bhakti alone. The answer is

obvious, that it would be foolish to do yoga and apply bhakti if you

can reach perfection by bhakti alone. Therefore we accept that only

those who will fail at bhakti by itself should do yoga and then do

bhakti.

 

But then there is another question as to why even bother with yoga .

The answer to that is given by Sri Krishna when he defined the

purpose of yoga as atmavishuddha in Chapter 6 verse 12.

 

Therefore if one finds that his or her bhakti is not getting

perfection, that person may do yoga for purification of the psyche

(atma), the psychological energies. Then when yoga is successful in

that purpose, he or she can apply bhakti and get the desired success.

 

Buddhi yoga? What is that?

 

That is the application of yoga practice to curbing and purifying

the intellect, the buddhi. It has to do with that one aspect only,

the buddhi. It concerns nothing else. It is the process of curbing

the buddhi by meditational techniques.

 

The mastership of the 5th pratyahar stage of yoga and the beginning

practice of the 6th dharana stage concerns buddhi yoga, the curbing

and subjugation of the buddhi organ in the subtle body.

 

The difficulty with implementing the removal of the vasanas, has to

do with the deficiency of the human being. This deficiency comes

from the natural way which is to focus into the gross plane of

existence. Due to that we have no accurate knowledge or experience

of the subtle existence. And to make matters worse, the causal plane

is even more abstract than the subtle level.

 

How many of us are willing to take up a sadhana which would cause an

increase in subtle perception? How many of us would make that our

top priority to do whatever would be necessary to shut down most of

our physical interest and to put our attention over to the subtle

side.

 

I feel this is our impediment.

 

The causal level, which has within it the seed energies (bija) of

the vasanas, cannot be reached until we develop very subtle

perception. How can you affect something which you can neither see

nor feel. So first we have to get subtle vision then super subtle

vision then we can tackle the root energies of the vasanas which

influence and dominate us on this level.

 

From this physical plane we cannot eradicate the vasanas because

their supportive and motivational roots are coming from the causal

level. We can however limited their main manifestation if we apply

strong moral principles in an attempt to restrict vices and promote

a righteous lifestyle (dharma).

 

Over time of practicing dharma, one develops some resistance to some

of the very gross and vulgar vasanas. From this one develops a

strength to challenge the motivational forces, and then gradually

one develops introspection and moves into higher yoga practice. Thus

karma yoga serves as a stepping stone to jnana yoga which is the

practice for directly challenging the vasanas first in the subtle

body and then at their rooting on the causal plane.

 

One easy way to understand the difference between nirvikalpa and

savikalpa samadhi is through the example of one electric circuit

which has only a light bulb and another circuit which has a light

bulb and a meter.

 

The electric supply or generator would serve as representing God or

representing the supreme brahman, while the bulb and its little

circuit presents the jiva or yogi. When we plug the circuit into the

electric supply, the light glows, because it is connected to that

power..

 

In the second example there is a meter attached to the bulb ,

whereby when the circuit is plugged in, the bulb glows but the meter

also registers a certain quality of current.

 

In the first example the bulb gets the full current and is fully

charged with the supreme power, while in the second example only

some of the current is used by the bulb since the meter which

measures the current, absorbs some of the electric force.

 

Thus in the second example the yogi's mind which measures and

analyzes the power which flows from the Supreme, causes a reduction

in his contact with the Supreme power.

 

The advantage of the first example is that the yogi gets to feel the

full supreme power, while in the second example the yogi cannot

experience the full power but is better able to describe his

experience because he was able to measure the intensity of the

supreme power/

 

In the first example, after the samadhi the yogi might say, " I

experience it but there is no way that I can describe it to you. It

was fully subjective. It was not objective. It was like: I was it

and it was me. "

 

In the second case the yogi might say, " I measured it as I

experienced it. I will describe it to you. I was objective to it.

 

Madhavacharya (Michael Beloved)

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Please correct the misconcept that Holy Gita is insufficient by

reading and assimilating verse 66 of chapter 18. What is Moksh? What

is Mukti? What is Nirvan? What is Realization of Self? All these are

beyond body mind mechanism whereas samadhi of any type or kind is

within it and ends with vyutthaan.

please be specific as to how and where Gita is found insufficient.

Thanks and Regards,

Sarvottam

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Just a quick observation on Divakaranji's post.

Sure, it is a great worship when whatever we do as Krishnaarpanam.

Such sustained worshiping attitude can lead one to Moksha because

the highest one can offer(arpana to Krishna) is oneself-ego in total

surrender!

But Moksha or Mukti is not a matter of individual perception, rather

freedom from Individuality itself! Moksha is when " individual " is

seen as illusion, and all his/her perceptions including " I am an

individual with this body-mind " dissolves into THAT which IS! It is

the only Reality/Atman/Brahman/God and cannot be perceived(by mind)

because IT perceives everything, even mind-body-world.

Namaskar.............

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

My dear Sadhak Gurujan,

When whatever we do is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itself

constitutes worship. Whether Moksha or Mukti is thus achieved is a

matter of individual perception.

 

Subbanarasu Divakaran

 

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In my seeing, it is the most important that one realizes what one

truly IS!, not as one thinks or believes one is! Samadhi as I

understand it, is a state which comes and goes, so " we " cannot be

such a state. We are THAT whatever THAT may be, in which such states

come and go, but we don't ever come or go as Consciousness!

Upon investigation we may discover that such state as savikalpa

samadhi arises in our Consciousness (which is also our Beingness) in

meditation while focusing on God or breath etc., and when samadhi

state leaves us it goes back to same Consciousness just as wave

arising and vanishing back to ocean(water really). We know " we " are

Ocean of Consciousness even when waves arise or vanish.

 

Nirvikalpa samadhi is when Consciousness is devoid of objects

experienced only as thoughts in mind and sensations/feelings in

body. In otherword, Consciousness being Conscious of ITSELF,

liberating from limitations of objects.

Due to desires, vaasanas, attachments etc one is constantly occupied

by objects of perceptions and/or feelings such as anger, jealousy,

envy etc, samadhi state is not manifest as Consciousness is

identified with such objects.

 

When understanding takes place through inquiy, contemplations,

meditation(if one has inclination to path of Gyan), then one

realizes one is not body-mind based separate person, and samadhi

happens naturally. When samadhi state happens naturally regardless

of presence ot abscence of objects as perceptions, conceptions,

arising in Consciousness, Consciousness is liberated and a state of

Sahaj samadhi happens. (Many saints such as Ramana Maharshi,

Ramkrishna Paramhansa were in such a state while being engaged in

activities, as I know).

 

It is apperception meaning Consciousness being conscious of Itself

(Sat-Chit-Ananda swarupa) rather than objects, in all situations.

(Like wave now knows it is really water even as it appears to be

wave from the mind's perspective).

Such realization is of primary importance, and samadhi state may be

an indication only.

 

It is equally possible to realize this by total Devotion, or being

engaged in selfless Karma within guidelines of Dharma. In such

pursuits Grace is bestowed upon Sadhakas by Bhgwaan. Bliss, Love,

Peace, Harmony, Intelligence, Beauty manifest in life of such a

sadhaka which is the same experience of oneness as narrated by

realized ones or Bhagwaan's devotees!

To summarize, it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neither

is the only path to liberation! Realization through spiritual

sadhana with predominence of Self-inquiry, Devotion, or Karma-Yoga

can lead to ultimate Grace! One knows undoubtedly ONE is

Consciousness(Chit), which is Impersonal Being(sat), and therefore

is at the same time Fullness-Bliss(Anada)!

 

Namaskar.....

 

Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

 

Moksha need not neccesarily by Yoga or become a brahma gnani to

released from cycle of life, in Krishna clearly says easiest way to

attain nirvana is thru true love towards him, thru gnana and yoga

the yogi or upasaka should fix a time to leave this itself requires

lot of knowledge and takes many births.

 

So when easily gnana moksha is available why to go for toughest

thing.

 

But a good food contains all items Dhyana is neccessary along with

Bhakthi to attain the goal.

 

But any one who has read the Gita easily can understand and manage

both.

 

MANY HAVE DOUBTS WHEN KRIHNA SAYS BHAKTHI TAKES U TO MOKSHA THE EASY

WAY AND ALSO MENTIONS TO CONCENTRATE ON HIM(dhyana) AND ALSO MENTIONS

TO KARMA YOGA.

 

WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND WE SHOULD PLAY MUTIPLE MARGAS (path) TO ATTAIN

MOKSHA (salvation).

 

PLEASE READ GITA BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION ASK URSELF ASK LORD INSIDE

YOU.

 

Shapur Shiva

-------------------------------

 

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MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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HARIOM,

 

Proponents of Dhyana Yoga (Yoga of Meditation)say one must attain

Nivikalp samadhi (a very difficult task for most people) to

completely eradicate the VASANAS (desires, passions, impressions

remaining in the mind) from the causal body. Thus they express that

any one of the other paths of the Holy Gita is not a sufficient

condition for mukti (liberation, benediction, release from rebirth

in the world, emancipation). Please remove my doubts completely and

in detail.

 

Hari Om Roy

----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Brother Naga Narayana says the question is redundant, it is not.

Journeyman faces the problem which Sadhana to do to reach the goal.

once you reach the goal then and then only QUESTION becomes

redundant. here are some more thoughts for your consideration and

comments:

 

IS THERE ONLY ONE RIGHT

 

WAY TO GOD?

 

Lord Krishna has been talking about both manifest and unmanifest

aspects of God in the previous chapters. Arjun's question has been

answered in great detail in this chapter, but people still argue

that one method of worship or certain religious practices are better

than others. Such persons only understand half the truth. In our

opinion, it is quite clear that the method of worship depends on the

nature of the individual. The person or the person's guru should

find out which path will be most suitable for the individual,

depending on the person's temperament. To force his or her own

method of worship on people is the greatest disservice a guru can do

to disciples. The important thing is to develop faith in and love of God. God

has the power to manifest before a devotee in any form, regardless of the

devotee's chosen form of worship.

 

What has worked for one may not work for all. There was no need for the Lord to

discuss different paths of yoga if there was one path for all. If the chosen

path of spiritual discipline does not give one peace or God-realization, then it

must be understood that one is not practicing correctly or the path is not right

for the individual.

 

Hari Om Roy

 

-------------------------------

 

Sir,

To represent the things in scientific ways,I like to say that'

It is now a fact that chemical rexs can create electric egergy and

eectric flow is result of oxidation,i.e. electron formation.In human

body also this simple system leads to energy and life.So,smadhi

means actually to control a reaction or control the generation of

electrons.Naturally it can lead to more life but of courst,provided

the chemical rex also is controlled,but not stopped.So,by limiting

intake and smadhi can increase life,but also decreases the current

to work.So,gita is now a base for science facts.

Regards,

sayal123

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

No ! Samadhi is certainly not a necessary condition for Moksha-

the " mineness " - an exclusive " mineness " with Paramatma is however a

desirable requirement for liberation. In fact, disconnection with

inert is essential condition for Liberation- whether that comes

through Karma Yoga or Jnana Yoga. For Bhakti Yoga , Mineness with

Paramatma is essential.

 

There is one more type of Samadhi- called " Sahaj Samadhi " . That is

necessary end result of liberation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

This a question filled with contradictions and inconsistencies.

 

Neither Samadhi is a condition nor Moksha a target.

 

State where no conditions can raise from, where no conditions can

survive and where all the conditions are completely obliterated is

Samadhi.

 

State where no targets can emerge from, where no targets can persist

and where all the targets are completely annihilated is Moksha.

 

They are synanmous to each other where there cannot be any necessity

or requirement as such.

 

Therefore, this question is redundant in itself for me.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

Bhagavan has said to Arjuna, " When I (GOD) am in front why you want

to know about all this knowledge " . Samadhi levels, different types

of yogas, Etc is not necessary when Bhagavan comes to you. Buddhi +

yoga = Buddhi yoga. So there is prefix Buddhi to yoga. So also in

other cases. But for Bakthi (worship, devotion, love of God) there

is no prefix. Why? Because Bakthi is crown of all spiritual

practices. Bakthi is unconditional constant and No change in any

condition in love towards GOD. Besides what Bakthi makes? All yogas

and samadhi levels in the world put together is practice to silence

the mind from totally to remove Vasanas. This type of practices by

one` s effort. So Bhagavan just remains witness to see how far you

can succeed. Bhagavan has clearly said in Geetha that by Yoga or by

Tapas (austerities) one can reach HIM after serveral births.

Bhagavan in same Geetha has also clearly said that HE can liberate a

person in one single (same Jalma) by HIS Sankalpa (resolve, vow).

Does it not seem contradictory? NO. First instance you are making

Sankalpa (will, resolve, intentions) to reach HIM. Whereas in second

instance Bagavan is making HIS sankalpa (resolve) to liberate you.

Simple Example: 1) Finite is trying to reach infinite. (2) Infinite

is trying to pull finite. Which will succeed? In prakuthi also Mass

can attract molecule. Bagavan has said that HE takes care of HIS

bhakta (devotees), if bhakta fails in his attempt. Bagavan has

given a designation as " Yoga Brasta " to such soul failed in bakthi

(worship and devotion).

In Sri Ranga Mahatyiyam script, mother Lakshmi points out to a

bhakta saying that he is doing mistakes. Bhagavan immediately says

to mother Lakshmi, " Here after YOU take care of YOUR baktha and I

(Bagavan) will take care of MY baktha " . One can see from scripts

that yogis are subjected to abuse and torcher. Where as Bakthas are

immediately rescued by Bagavan. When Bagavan has said in simple

terms, " Surrender to ME " , means love (Bhakti) why ponder over many

things.

Lastly the cat story of doing certain practices is Gift from Bagavan

to animals alone called Instinct. We humans have No instinct and the

gift of intellect from God is unused.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

------------------------

In our religion, the first 25 years are spent in learning, next 25

in married life, next 25 in religious activities with one's spouse

and the last 25 in sanyas. This is the time when one is free from

worldly duties and can totally concentrate(dhyan) or meditate and

become one with the Self and attain Nirvikalp samadhi and moksha or

liberation from the endless cycle of birth and death. There are

other paths like Karm yog and Gyan yog also but these take time.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

--------------------------

 

 

--------------------------

 

dear sadaks,

Nirvikalpa samadhi etc are difficult tasks which are performed by

yogis. Vasanas cannot go that easily. But short cut is Bakthi Marg.

In this Marg Bagavan comes to you rather than you searching HIM.

Examples: Bagavan came to numerous saints, played with them, lived

with them, protected them Baktha Gora, Purander Doss, Tukaram,

Pundalikan, Sakubai, Meera bai etc etc. These saints underwent

sufferings (which we feel) but they hardly knew what was happening.

Bakthi is surrender. Easy and simple way. Here your effort is Zero.

In samadhi level your effort is maximum.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

 

Hari Om.

 

I saw a kitten in my friend's house today.

It had lost its mother soon after it was born.

It never knew that it was a kitten and left alone.

without any observation or company of a cat, it does exactly

what a cat does.

To pass stool it dug a pit and pushed the mud back after passing

stool.

Now tell me who taught it to behave like a cat?

Its the impression of the brain that was formed when it was in its

mother's womb.

The same way all of act according to the impressions that are in our

brain from the day we entered our mother's womb.

This way we carry the good and bad deeds of previous birth

when we enter our mother's womb.

The karma cycle starts here for this birth.

For the good deeds we get comfort and for the bad deeds we

getdiscomfort

and misery.

MOKSHA IS THE PROCESS BY WHICH WE RELIEVE URSELVES

 

FROM THIS CYCLE OF KARMA.

 

This can be attained only by doing Sadhana.

Ths Sadhana takes us to SAMADHI.

Samadhi is the state where our soul light removes our karma.

This is the TRUTH OF GEETHA TOLD BY KRUSHNA IN KAPILA CHARITHRAM.

THis is known as Shankya Yoga in GEETHA.

with regards,

 

Usha sridhar

----------------------------

 

Yogiraj Madhvacarya's Response (Posted by HariOm Roy for the benefit

of the group)

 

It is a fact that unless one reaches into the causal body and works

at it on the causal plane, one cannot completely eradicate the

vasanas. Gita has given the path of buddhi yoga in chapter two,

especially in the last portion of chapter two as the solution and

instead of nirvikalpa, we get the term brahmanirvanam.

 

Gita enunciated two paths as karma yoga and jnana yoga. The path of

jnana yoga has within it the potential to attain the eradications of

the vasanas, but in my opinion the path of karma yoga will not

remove the vasanas but will remove most of the inconvenient or

undesirable vasanas.

 

If someone does not see that the path of jnana yoga and particularly

the buddhi yoga techniques discussed by Sri Krishna as containing

the solution of the problem of the vasanas, it means that the person

does not understand the Sanskrit terms and is giving those terms

insufficient meanings.

 

But in that case if one goes to the Uddhava Gita, one will get a

more in-depth and detailed instruction for that jnana yoga and then

one's doubts about Gita should be removed.

 

Buddhi yoga as given in Bhagavad Gita is a practice which was taught

by Sri Krishna to both the jnana yogis and the karma yogis. Karma

yogis students like Arjuna got that skill through the practice of

elementary meditation yoga and with that psychological proficiency,

they applied this to their life in the cultural world, as

politicians, state officials and state warriors. The proficiency of

this for a karma yogi shows by his detachment when punishing and

impartiality when dealing with citizens. Thus Krishna requested

Arjuna to exhibit the buddhi yoga proficient on the battlefield of

Kurukshetra, just as Janak and other legendary kings did in the

Vedic history.

 

Basically speaking the meditative yoga practice of those karma yogis

ended with this buddhi yoga and its result in their life was

highlighted by their detachment and impartially.

 

First we begin by defining yoga and to do so we must go to

Patanjali. He gave us an eight (8) part system which become known

also as Ashtanga yoga.

 

Thus bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga. Buddhi yoga is buddhi+yoga. Jnana

yoga is jnana+yoga. Atma yoga is atma+ yoga and so on. In this way

we will be clear when we use these terms. Now if we agree that

bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga, then what is bhakti? The answer is

that bhakti is bhakti. The next question is : Can someone reach

perfection by bhakti alone.. And the answer is that scriptures give

us examples of persons who did just that, persons like the gopis.

 

Then there is another question, why do yoga and then apply it to

bhakti if one can reach perfection by bhakti alone. The answer is

obvious, that it would be foolish to do yoga and apply bhakti if you

can reach perfection by bhakti alone. Therefore we accept that only

those who will fail at bhakti by itself should do yoga and then do

bhakti.

 

But then there is another question as to why even bother with yoga .

The answer to that is given by Sri Krishna when he defined the

purpose of yoga as atmavishuddha in Chapter 6 verse 12.

 

Therefore if one finds that his or her bhakti is not getting

perfection, that person may do yoga for purification of the psyche

(atma), the psychological energies. Then when yoga is successful in

that purpose, he or she can apply bhakti and get the desired success.

 

Buddhi yoga? What is that?

 

That is the application of yoga practice to curbing and purifying

the intellect, the buddhi. It has to do with that one aspect only,

the buddhi. It concerns nothing else. It is the process of curbing

the buddhi by meditational techniques.

 

The mastership of the 5th pratyahar stage of yoga and the beginning

practice of the 6th dharana stage concerns buddhi yoga, the curbing

and subjugation of the buddhi organ in the subtle body.

 

The difficulty with implementing the removal of the vasanas, has to

do with the deficiency of the human being. This deficiency comes

from the natural way which is to focus into the gross plane of

existence. Due to that we have no accurate knowledge or experience

of the subtle existence. And to make matters worse, the causal plane

is even more abstract than the subtle level.

 

How many of us are willing to take up a sadhana which would cause an

increase in subtle perception? How many of us would make that our

top priority to do whatever would be necessary to shut down most of

our physical interest and to put our attention over to the subtle

side.

 

I feel this is our impediment.

 

The causal level, which has within it the seed energies (bija) of

the vasanas, cannot be reached until we develop very subtle

perception. How can you affect something which you can neither see

nor feel. So first we have to get subtle vision then super subtle

vision then we can tackle the root energies of the vasanas which

influence and dominate us on this level.

 

From this physical plane we cannot eradicate the vasanas because

their supportive and motivational roots are coming from the causal

level. We can however limited their main manifestation if we apply

strong moral principles in an attempt to restrict vices and promote

a righteous lifestyle (dharma).

 

Over time of practicing dharma, one develops some resistance to some

of the very gross and vulgar vasanas. From this one develops a

strength to challenge the motivational forces, and then gradually

one develops introspection and moves into higher yoga practice. Thus

karma yoga serves as a stepping stone to jnana yoga which is the

practice for directly challenging the vasanas first in the subtle

body and then at their rooting on the causal plane.

 

One easy way to understand the difference between nirvikalpa and

savikalpa samadhi is through the example of one electric circuit

which has only a light bulb and another circuit which has a light

bulb and a meter.

 

The electric supply or generator would serve as representing God or

representing the supreme brahman, while the bulb and its little

circuit presents the jiva or yogi. When we plug the circuit into the

electric supply, the light glows, because it is connected to that

power..

 

In the second example there is a meter attached to the bulb ,

whereby when the circuit is plugged in, the bulb glows but the meter

also registers a certain quality of current.

 

In the first example the bulb gets the full current and is fully

charged with the supreme power, while in the second example only

some of the current is used by the bulb since the meter which

measures the current, absorbs some of the electric force.

 

Thus in the second example the yogi's mind which measures and

analyzes the power which flows from the Supreme, causes a reduction

in his contact with the Supreme power.

 

The advantage of the first example is that the yogi gets to feel the

full supreme power, while in the second example the yogi cannot

experience the full power but is better able to describe his

experience because he was able to measure the intensity of the

supreme power/

 

In the first example, after the samadhi the yogi might say, " I

experience it but there is no way that I can describe it to you. It

was fully subjective. It was not objective. It was like: I was it

and it was me. "

 

In the second case the yogi might say, " I measured it as I

experienced it. I will describe it to you. I was objective to it.

 

Madhavacharya (Michael Beloved)

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Please correct the misconcept that Holy Gita is insufficient by

reading and assimilating verse 66 of chapter 18. What is Moksh? What

is Mukti? What is Nirvan? What is Realization of Self? All these are

beyond body mind mechanism whereas samadhi of any type or kind is

within it and ends with vyutthaan.

please be specific as to how and where Gita is found insufficient.

Thanks and Regards,

Sarvottam

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Just a quick observation on Divakaranji's post.

Sure, it is a great worship when whatever we do as Krishnaarpanam.

Such sustained worshiping attitude can lead one to Moksha because

the highest one can offer(arpana to Krishna) is oneself-ego in total

surrender!

But Moksha or Mukti is not a matter of individual perception, rather

freedom from Individuality itself! Moksha is when " individual " is

seen as illusion, and all his/her perceptions including " I am an

individual with this body-mind " dissolves into THAT which IS! It is

the only Reality/Atman/Brahman/God and cannot be perceived(by mind)

because IT perceives everything, even mind-body-world.

Namaskar.............

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

My dear Sadhak Gurujan,

When whatever we do is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itself

constitutes worship. Whether Moksha or Mukti is thus achieved is a

matter of individual perception.

 

Subbanarasu Divakaran

 

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In my seeing, it is the most important that one realizes what one

truly IS!, not as one thinks or believes one is! Samadhi as I

understand it, is a state which comes and goes, so " we " cannot be

such a state. We are THAT whatever THAT may be, in which such states

come and go, but we don't ever come or go as Consciousness!

Upon investigation we may discover that such state as savikalpa

samadhi arises in our Consciousness (which is also our Beingness) in

meditation while focusing on God or breath etc., and when samadhi

state leaves us it goes back to same Consciousness just as wave

arising and vanishing back to ocean(water really). We know " we " are

Ocean of Consciousness even when waves arise or vanish.

 

Nirvikalpa samadhi is when Consciousness is devoid of objects

experienced only as thoughts in mind and sensations/feelings in

body. In otherword, Consciousness being Conscious of ITSELF,

liberating from limitations of objects.

Due to desires, vaasanas, attachments etc one is constantly occupied

by objects of perceptions and/or feelings such as anger, jealousy,

envy etc, samadhi state is not manifest as Consciousness is

identified with such objects.

 

When understanding takes place through inquiy, contemplations,

meditation(if one has inclination to path of Gyan), then one

realizes one is not body-mind based separate person, and samadhi

happens naturally. When samadhi state happens naturally regardless

of presence ot abscence of objects as perceptions, conceptions,

arising in Consciousness, Consciousness is liberated and a state of

Sahaj samadhi happens. (Many saints such as Ramana Maharshi,

Ramkrishna Paramhansa were in such a state while being engaged in

activities, as I know).

 

It is apperception meaning Consciousness being conscious of Itself

(Sat-Chit-Ananda swarupa) rather than objects, in all situations.

(Like wave now knows it is really water even as it appears to be

wave from the mind's perspective).

Such realization is of primary importance, and samadhi state may be

an indication only.

 

It is equally possible to realize this by total Devotion, or being

engaged in selfless Karma within guidelines of Dharma. In such

pursuits Grace is bestowed upon Sadhakas by Bhgwaan. Bliss, Love,

Peace, Harmony, Intelligence, Beauty manifest in life of such a

sadhaka which is the same experience of oneness as narrated by

realized ones or Bhagwaan's devotees!

To summarize, it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neither

is the only path to liberation! Realization through spiritual

sadhana with predominence of Self-inquiry, Devotion, or Karma-Yoga

can lead to ultimate Grace! One knows undoubtedly ONE is

Consciousness(Chit), which is Impersonal Being(sat), and therefore

is at the same time Fullness-Bliss(Anada)!

 

Namaskar.....

 

Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

 

Moksha need not neccesarily by Yoga or become a brahma gnani to

released from cycle of life, in Krishna clearly says easiest way to

attain nirvana is thru true love towards him, thru gnana and yoga

the yogi or upasaka should fix a time to leave this itself requires

lot of knowledge and takes many births.

 

So when easily gnana moksha is available why to go for toughest

thing.

 

But a good food contains all items Dhyana is neccessary along with

Bhakthi to attain the goal.

 

But any one who has read the Gita easily can understand and manage

both.

 

MANY HAVE DOUBTS WHEN KRIHNA SAYS BHAKTHI TAKES U TO MOKSHA THE EASY

WAY AND ALSO MENTIONS TO CONCENTRATE ON HIM(dhyana) AND ALSO MENTIONS

TO KARMA YOGA.

 

WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND WE SHOULD PLAY MUTIPLE MARGAS (path) TO ATTAIN

MOKSHA (salvation).

 

PLEASE READ GITA BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION ASK URSELF ASK LORD INSIDE

YOU.

 

Shapur Shiva

-------------------------------

 

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------------------------

 

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HARIOM,

 

Proponents of Dhyana Yoga (Yoga of Meditation)say one must attain

Nivikalp samadhi (a very difficult task for most people) to

completely eradicate the VASANAS (desires, passions, impressions

remaining in the mind) from the causal body. Thus they express that

any one of the other paths of the Holy Gita is not a sufficient

condition for mukti (liberation, benediction, release from rebirth

in the world, emancipation). Please remove my doubts completely and

in detail.

 

Hari Om Roy

----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Dear Sadaks,

 

Dyana yoga, Sahaja Yoga etc are same yoga prefixing Dyana

(meditation) to yoga. This is like God over Sahastra Nama, but

eventually GOD is one. Gowtham Rishi, Vasista, Viswamitra and so

many failed in yoga. In yoga the effort to be put is totally

cleansing the mind through out one` s life. Persons who succeeded

sometime fails, like the above stated Rishis at one part in their

lives. That is why Bagavan in Geetha says by Yoga one to reach HIM

may take several births. But becoming God's, developing a loving

relationship with Him, even while being in family, amidst society

and the world, living dharmic way as per the sastras, God

personally takes responsibility for such devotees and makes certain

that there is NO slippage from getting liberated.

 

Examples are many but few are being shared here:

Baktha Gora, pot maker accidentally stamped his son while meditating

on Panduranga. His wife in Anger said not to touch her. He remained

so for years. His wife married her sister to have issue to them.

But on wedding day the father in law promised to Gora to treat his

2cd daughter as he would treat his 1st wife. Gora said to his 2cd

wife on first night, that her elder sister was aloof from him and

so she also to remain aloof as promised by his father in law.

Having 2 wives Gora was singing and dancing in Bakthi without least

thought of senses. Wives one night touched hands of Gora who slain

ed his hands to keep up promise. God Panduranga came down as a

servant Rangan and worked in his house. Same was with Neelakanda

Nayanar Shiva Baktha where Bagavan Shiva came down to him. Bagavan

even touched and washed the feet of Kuchela for his love. Bagavan

even did shaving to King Badhusha on behalf of his Baktha. Bagavan

ran to save elephant Gajendra. What Prahalad did- Nava Rasa Bakthi

and Bagavan was always with him. For a cobbler (whose house even to

day exits) in Panderpur Bagavan stitched slipper for business. For a

housewife Sakubai, Bagavan took the form of Sankubai to fullfil her

desire to go to Panderpur and Bagavan was acting as Sakubai in her

house as servant. Sakubai dies in the temple when she is overwhelmed

seeing Moorthy Panduranga in the temple. She was cremated. But

Bagavan Shiva raises her to life from ashes. One can visit her house

in Gopalpur even today. A lady by name Poogodhai was raised to life

from Hasti (Ashes of Poogodhai) right in presence of public in a

temple Kabaleesvar- Mylapore in Chennai by a saint Thiru Gyna

Sambather.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

Respected Hari Om Roy,

 

Appreciate your remarks. Following is what revolves around in me at

this point

 

Dhyana " The intellect established in focus on an object for appreciation Yoga "

Absolute Unison

Dhyana Yoga " Appreciation (of anything) in Absolute Unison

 

Dhyana yoga is a self-sufficient phrase as Bhagavan Vyaasa puts it

forward in the first place.

 

Being pulled apart from two polarities in our existence " individual and universe

" we qualify this unique concept further:

 

Aatma Dhyana Yoga " Self Appreciation Brahma Dhyana Yoga " Universal Appreciation

 

The inertially ignorant mind cannot fathom anything but an object

(Vishaya) and its image in its senses (Indriyas) and hence gravitates

all suggestions to the same Vishayendriya cluster (sensorial images of object)

and hence looses the Absolute Unison intended in the first

place. Often, it is diluted to the perceived duo " vishaya and indriya.

 

Vishaya Dhyana Yoga: Absolute appreciation of any object is enough.

Even " the letter, the pronunciation, the sound, the shape, the

syllable, its medium, its source, its destiny, its constitution, its

composites, etc. " is enough. If it is too simple … Aum … Omkara

Dhyana. Vishaya Dhyana in its purity tends toward Brahma Dhyana.

 

Indriya Dhyana Yoga: Absolute appreciation of any sense is also

sensible enough. Just an utterance is enough to pace toward the

absolute through the same sensory signal in truthful pursuit as

Krishna says very often in Gita - Indriyaaneendriyaartheshu. The

same Omkara helps to traverse inward as well. Indriya Dhyana in its

purity tends toward Aatma Dhyana.

 

The intended Dhyana Yoga becomes Dhyana Roga as the partial, lopsided

and wishful appreciation of oneself (subject) as well as the objects

(and their images in terms of actions, thoughts and desires) around

increases. Neither the subject (Aatman) nor the object (Brahman) is

appreciated in Absolute Unison. The subject is appreciated in terms of

objectional images and the objects are appreciated in terms of

subjective desires, thoughts and actions. As such, there is nothing

wrong in either vishaya or in indriya … but, the corruption is in our

perception of the same.

 

On the other hand, dwelling in three apparent domains in three

inherent forms, we cannot but gravitate to one of the three clusters

closest to our nature " physical, perceptional and experiential worlds

in terms of actions, thoughts and desires. Accordingly the same Dhyana Yoga is

recommend with alternative adjectives from different schools of thoughts:

 

Aatma Dhyana Yoga " Experiential Appreciation in the domain of desires

(aatma-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Gowdapada, Shankara, Ramana, …)

Daiva Dhyana Yoga †" Perceptional Appreciation in the domain of

thoughts (daiva-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Vallabha, Ramanuja,

Madhva)

Bhuta Dhyana Yoga " Existential Appreciation in the domain of actions

(bhouta-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Chaarvaaka, and most of us)

 

When the focus is turned to a limited identity, practical difficulty

of loosing the original intent is faced. We add another adjective to

emphasize on the basis for each rather than the tip of the ice berg in each

domain:

 

Aadhyaatma Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Experiential Appreciation

Adhidaiva Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Perceptional Appreciation

Adhibhuta Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Existential Appreciation

 

The above three are also often referenced as Bhakti Yoga, Gnyaana

Yoga, and Karma Yoga with variant overlaps on each other.

 

Details are added perpetually distinctions are made that are lost in

the heap of overlapping attributes … we loose the understanding that the real

appreciation of anything is in its simplicity and not in complexity nothing was

required and nothing is required the

helpless mind needs some support as soon as it is given a choice, it

floods with its own images for its own sustenance.

As Ramana puts it, the mind flies around chasing the smoke and

fragrances dispersed from a sandle stick Dhyana is to push it to the

source of all smoke and fragrance around " the tip of the sandle stick it runs

away we should bring it the focal point that is the game Dhyana Yoga! That is

Karma Yoga, as well as Gnyaana Yoga as well as Bhakti Yoga as well as any other

yoga âall for ONE and ONLY ONE to be THAT. You can call it Samadhi or Mukti or

God or anything else.

 

Your observations are valid our pre-conditioned existence appears to

drift in variant directions. The wisdom is to integrate the fragmented presence

in all the domains of our existence " be it actions, or thoughts, or desires "

concurrently. No multiple paths are prescribed in Gita to my understanding. ONE

HAS TO CLEANSE ONESELF IN ALL RESPECTS, IN ALL THE EIGHTEEN DOMAINS IDENTIFIED

IN GITA! My understanding is to practice The Yoga in its completeness rather

than in its fragment that appeals to me. Starting point is the same " Vishada and

ending point is the same " Moksha Sanyasa. Every yoga in between is a building

block to complete this puzzle for me. NONE OF THEM HAVE ANY INDEPENDENT

EXISTENCE AS SUCH. ALL THE EIGHTEEN SERVE THE SINGLE PURPOSE " TO BE THAT.

 

Personally, I do not to the popular acceptance that each

yoga or path can have their own credits. They have credits only in

unison with the rest in my appreciation. Any yoga practiced rightly

automatically incorporates the rest - from this perspective, each is

COMPLETE in itself as well. As far as The Truth at the pedestal of

one's presence, anything is fine and everything is fine because

anything and everything floods toward THAT.

 

If you have any specific question/objection to this, pl. feel free

express the same. I will attempt to address as I can.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Brother Naga Narayana says the question is redundant, it is not.

Journeyman faces the problem which Sadhana to do to reach the goal.

once you reach the goal then and then only QUESTION becomes

redundant. here are some more thoughts for your consideration and

comments:

 

IS THERE ONLY ONE RIGHT

 

WAY TO GOD?

 

Lord Krishna has been talking about both manifest and unmanifest

aspects of God in the previous chapters. Arjun's question has been

answered in great detail in this chapter, but people still argue

that one method of worship or certain religious practices are better

than others. Such persons only understand half the truth. In our

opinion, it is quite clear that the method of worship depends on the

nature of the individual. The person or the person's guru should

find out which path will be most suitable for the individual,

depending on the person's temperament. To force his or her own

method of worship on people is the greatest disservice a guru can do

to disciples. The important thing is to develop faith in and love of

God. God

has the power to manifest before a devotee in any form, regardless

of the

devotee's chosen form of worship.

 

What has worked for one may not work for all. There was no need for

the Lord to

discuss different paths of yoga if there was one path for all. If

the chosen

path of spiritual discipline does not give one peace or God-

realization, then it

must be understood that one is not practicing correctly or the path

is not right

for the individual.

 

Hari Om Roy

 

-------------------------------

 

Sir,

To represent the things in scientific ways,I like to say that'

It is now a fact that chemical rexs can create electric egergy and

eectric flow is result of oxidation,i.e. electron formation.In human

body also this simple system leads to energy and life.So,smadhi

means actually to control a reaction or control the generation of

electrons.Naturally it can lead to more life but of courst,provided

the chemical rex also is controlled,but not stopped.So,by limiting

intake and smadhi can increase life,but also decreases the current

to work.So,gita is now a base for science facts.

Regards,

sayal123

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

No ! Samadhi is certainly not a necessary condition for Moksha-

the " mineness " - an exclusive " mineness " with Paramatma is however a

desirable requirement for liberation. In fact, disconnection with

inert is essential condition for Liberation- whether that comes

through Karma Yoga or Jnana Yoga. For Bhakti Yoga , Mineness with

Paramatma is essential.

 

There is one more type of Samadhi- called " Sahaj Samadhi " . That is

necessary end result of liberation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

This a question filled with contradictions and inconsistencies.

 

Neither Samadhi is a condition nor Moksha a target.

 

State where no conditions can raise from, where no conditions can

survive and where all the conditions are completely obliterated is

Samadhi.

 

State where no targets can emerge from, where no targets can persist

and where all the targets are completely annihilated is Moksha.

 

They are synanmous to each other where there cannot be any necessity

or requirement as such.

 

Therefore, this question is redundant in itself for me.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

Bhagavan has said to Arjuna, " When I (GOD) am in front why you want

to know about all this knowledge " . Samadhi levels, different types

of yogas, Etc is not necessary when Bhagavan comes to you. Buddhi +

yoga = Buddhi yoga. So there is prefix Buddhi to yoga. So also in

other cases. But for Bakthi (worship, devotion, love of God) there

is no prefix. Why? Because Bakthi is crown of all spiritual

practices. Bakthi is unconditional constant and No change in any

condition in love towards GOD. Besides what Bakthi makes? All yogas

and samadhi levels in the world put together is practice to silence

the mind from totally to remove Vasanas. This type of practices by

one` s effort. So Bhagavan just remains witness to see how far you

can succeed. Bhagavan has clearly said in Geetha that by Yoga or by

Tapas (austerities) one can reach HIM after serveral births.

Bhagavan in same Geetha has also clearly said that HE can liberate a

person in one single (same Jalma) by HIS Sankalpa (resolve, vow).

Does it not seem contradictory? NO. First instance you are making

Sankalpa (will, resolve, intentions) to reach HIM. Whereas in second

instance Bagavan is making HIS sankalpa (resolve) to liberate you.

Simple Example: 1) Finite is trying to reach infinite. (2) Infinite

is trying to pull finite. Which will succeed? In prakuthi also Mass

can attract molecule. Bagavan has said that HE takes care of HIS

bhakta (devotees), if bhakta fails in his attempt. Bagavan has

given a designation as " Yoga Brasta " to such soul failed in bakthi

(worship and devotion).

In Sri Ranga Mahatyiyam script, mother Lakshmi points out to a

bhakta saying that he is doing mistakes. Bhagavan immediately says

to mother Lakshmi, " Here after YOU take care of YOUR baktha and I

(Bagavan) will take care of MY baktha " . One can see from scripts

that yogis are subjected to abuse and torcher. Where as Bakthas are

immediately rescued by Bagavan. When Bagavan has said in simple

terms, " Surrender to ME " , means love (Bhakti) why ponder over many

things.

Lastly the cat story of doing certain practices is Gift from Bagavan

to animals alone called Instinct. We humans have No instinct and the

gift of intellect from God is unused.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

------------------------

In our religion, the first 25 years are spent in learning, next 25

in married life, next 25 in religious activities with one's spouse

and the last 25 in sanyas. This is the time when one is free from

worldly duties and can totally concentrate(dhyan) or meditate and

become one with the Self and attain Nirvikalp samadhi and moksha or

liberation from the endless cycle of birth and death. There are

other paths like Karm yog and Gyan yog also but these take time.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

--------------------------

 

 

--------------------------

 

dear sadaks,

Nirvikalpa samadhi etc are difficult tasks which are performed by

yogis. Vasanas cannot go that easily. But short cut is Bakthi Marg.

In this Marg Bagavan comes to you rather than you searching HIM.

Examples: Bagavan came to numerous saints, played with them, lived

with them, protected them Baktha Gora, Purander Doss, Tukaram,

Pundalikan, Sakubai, Meera bai etc etc. These saints underwent

sufferings (which we feel) but they hardly knew what was happening.

Bakthi is surrender. Easy and simple way. Here your effort is Zero.

In samadhi level your effort is maximum.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

 

Hari Om.

 

I saw a kitten in my friend's house today.

It had lost its mother soon after it was born.

It never knew that it was a kitten and left alone.

without any observation or company of a cat, it does exactly

what a cat does.

To pass stool it dug a pit and pushed the mud back after passing

stool.

Now tell me who taught it to behave like a cat?

Its the impression of the brain that was formed when it was in its

mother's womb.

The same way all of act according to the impressions that are in our

brain from the day we entered our mother's womb.

This way we carry the good and bad deeds of previous birth

when we enter our mother's womb.

The karma cycle starts here for this birth.

For the good deeds we get comfort and for the bad deeds we

getdiscomfort

and misery.

MOKSHA IS THE PROCESS BY WHICH WE RELIEVE URSELVES

 

FROM THIS CYCLE OF KARMA.

 

This can be attained only by doing Sadhana.

Ths Sadhana takes us to SAMADHI.

Samadhi is the state where our soul light removes our karma.

This is the TRUTH OF GEETHA TOLD BY KRUSHNA IN KAPILA CHARITHRAM.

THis is known as Shankya Yoga in GEETHA.

with regards,

 

Usha sridhar

----------------------------

 

Yogiraj Madhvacarya's Response (Posted by HariOm Roy for the benefit

of the group)

 

It is a fact that unless one reaches into the causal body and works

at it on the causal plane, one cannot completely eradicate the

vasanas. Gita has given the path of buddhi yoga in chapter two,

especially in the last portion of chapter two as the solution and

instead of nirvikalpa, we get the term brahmanirvanam.

 

Gita enunciated two paths as karma yoga and jnana yoga. The path of

jnana yoga has within it the potential to attain the eradications of

the vasanas, but in my opinion the path of karma yoga will not

remove the vasanas but will remove most of the inconvenient or

undesirable vasanas.

 

If someone does not see that the path of jnana yoga and particularly

the buddhi yoga techniques discussed by Sri Krishna as containing

the solution of the problem of the vasanas, it means that the person

does not understand the Sanskrit terms and is giving those terms

insufficient meanings.

 

But in that case if one goes to the Uddhava Gita, one will get a

more in-depth and detailed instruction for that jnana yoga and then

one's doubts about Gita should be removed.

 

Buddhi yoga as given in Bhagavad Gita is a practice which was taught

by Sri Krishna to both the jnana yogis and the karma yogis. Karma

yogis students like Arjuna got that skill through the practice of

elementary meditation yoga and with that psychological proficiency,

they applied this to their life in the cultural world, as

politicians, state officials and state warriors. The proficiency of

this for a karma yogi shows by his detachment when punishing and

impartiality when dealing with citizens. Thus Krishna requested

Arjuna to exhibit the buddhi yoga proficient on the battlefield of

Kurukshetra, just as Janak and other legendary kings did in the

Vedic history.

 

Basically speaking the meditative yoga practice of those karma yogis

ended with this buddhi yoga and its result in their life was

highlighted by their detachment and impartially.

 

First we begin by defining yoga and to do so we must go to

Patanjali. He gave us an eight (8) part system which become known

also as Ashtanga yoga.

 

Thus bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga. Buddhi yoga is buddhi+yoga. Jnana

yoga is jnana+yoga. Atma yoga is atma+ yoga and so on. In this way

we will be clear when we use these terms. Now if we agree that

bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga, then what is bhakti? The answer is

that bhakti is bhakti. The next question is : Can someone reach

perfection by bhakti alone.. And the answer is that scriptures give

us examples of persons who did just that, persons like the gopis.

 

Then there is another question, why do yoga and then apply it to

bhakti if one can reach perfection by bhakti alone. The answer is

obvious, that it would be foolish to do yoga and apply bhakti if you

can reach perfection by bhakti alone. Therefore we accept that only

those who will fail at bhakti by itself should do yoga and then do

bhakti.

 

But then there is another question as to why even bother with yoga .

The answer to that is given by Sri Krishna when he defined the

purpose of yoga as atmavishuddha in Chapter 6 verse 12.

 

Therefore if one finds that his or her bhakti is not getting

perfection, that person may do yoga for purification of the psyche

(atma), the psychological energies. Then when yoga is successful in

that purpose, he or she can apply bhakti and get the desired success.

 

Buddhi yoga? What is that?

 

That is the application of yoga practice to curbing and purifying

the intellect, the buddhi. It has to do with that one aspect only,

the buddhi. It concerns nothing else. It is the process of curbing

the buddhi by meditational techniques.

 

The mastership of the 5th pratyahar stage of yoga and the beginning

practice of the 6th dharana stage concerns buddhi yoga, the curbing

and subjugation of the buddhi organ in the subtle body.

 

The difficulty with implementing the removal of the vasanas, has to

do with the deficiency of the human being. This deficiency comes

from the natural way which is to focus into the gross plane of

existence. Due to that we have no accurate knowledge or experience

of the subtle existence. And to make matters worse, the causal plane

is even more abstract than the subtle level.

 

How many of us are willing to take up a sadhana which would cause an

increase in subtle perception? How many of us would make that our

top priority to do whatever would be necessary to shut down most of

our physical interest and to put our attention over to the subtle

side.

 

I feel this is our impediment.

 

The causal level, which has within it the seed energies (bija) of

the vasanas, cannot be reached until we develop very subtle

perception. How can you affect something which you can neither see

nor feel. So first we have to get subtle vision then super subtle

vision then we can tackle the root energies of the vasanas which

influence and dominate us on this level.

 

From this physical plane we cannot eradicate the vasanas because

their supportive and motivational roots are coming from the causal

level. We can however limited their main manifestation if we apply

strong moral principles in an attempt to restrict vices and promote

a righteous lifestyle (dharma).

 

Over time of practicing dharma, one develops some resistance to some

of the very gross and vulgar vasanas. From this one develops a

strength to challenge the motivational forces, and then gradually

one develops introspection and moves into higher yoga practice. Thus

karma yoga serves as a stepping stone to jnana yoga which is the

practice for directly challenging the vasanas first in the subtle

body and then at their rooting on the causal plane.

 

One easy way to understand the difference between nirvikalpa and

savikalpa samadhi is through the example of one electric circuit

which has only a light bulb and another circuit which has a light

bulb and a meter.

 

The electric supply or generator would serve as representing God or

representing the supreme brahman, while the bulb and its little

circuit presents the jiva or yogi. When we plug the circuit into the

electric supply, the light glows, because it is connected to that

power..

 

In the second example there is a meter attached to the bulb ,

whereby when the circuit is plugged in, the bulb glows but the meter

also registers a certain quality of current.

 

In the first example the bulb gets the full current and is fully

charged with the supreme power, while in the second example only

some of the current is used by the bulb since the meter which

measures the current, absorbs some of the electric force.

 

Thus in the second example the yogi's mind which measures and

analyzes the power which flows from the Supreme, causes a reduction

in his contact with the Supreme power.

 

The advantage of the first example is that the yogi gets to feel the

full supreme power, while in the second example the yogi cannot

experience the full power but is better able to describe his

experience because he was able to measure the intensity of the

supreme power/

 

In the first example, after the samadhi the yogi might say, " I

experience it but there is no way that I can describe it to you. It

was fully subjective. It was not objective. It was like: I was it

and it was me. "

 

In the second case the yogi might say, " I measured it as I

experienced it. I will describe it to you. I was objective to it.

 

Madhavacharya (Michael Beloved)

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Please correct the misconcept that Holy Gita is insufficient by

reading and assimilating verse 66 of chapter 18. What is Moksh? What

is Mukti? What is Nirvan? What is Realization of Self? All these are

beyond body mind mechanism whereas samadhi of any type or kind is

within it and ends with vyutthaan.

please be specific as to how and where Gita is found insufficient.

Thanks and Regards,

Sarvottam

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Just a quick observation on Divakaranji's post.

Sure, it is a great worship when whatever we do as Krishnaarpanam.

Such sustained worshiping attitude can lead one to Moksha because

the highest one can offer(arpana to Krishna) is oneself-ego in total

surrender!

But Moksha or Mukti is not a matter of individual perception, rather

freedom from Individuality itself! Moksha is when " individual " is

seen as illusion, and all his/her perceptions including " I am an

individual with this body-mind " dissolves into THAT which IS! It is

the only Reality/Atman/Brahman/God and cannot be perceived(by mind)

because IT perceives everything, even mind-body-world.

Namaskar.............

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

My dear Sadhak Gurujan,

When whatever we do is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itself

constitutes worship. Whether Moksha or Mukti is thus achieved is a

matter of individual perception.

 

Subbanarasu Divakaran

 

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In my seeing, it is the most important that one realizes what one

truly IS!, not as one thinks or believes one is! Samadhi as I

understand it, is a state which comes and goes, so " we " cannot be

such a state. We are THAT whatever THAT may be, in which such states

come and go, but we don't ever come or go as Consciousness!

Upon investigation we may discover that such state as savikalpa

samadhi arises in our Consciousness (which is also our Beingness) in

meditation while focusing on God or breath etc., and when samadhi

state leaves us it goes back to same Consciousness just as wave

arising and vanishing back to ocean(water really). We know " we " are

Ocean of Consciousness even when waves arise or vanish.

 

Nirvikalpa samadhi is when Consciousness is devoid of objects

experienced only as thoughts in mind and sensations/feelings in

body. In otherword, Consciousness being Conscious of ITSELF,

liberating from limitations of objects.

Due to desires, vaasanas, attachments etc one is constantly occupied

by objects of perceptions and/or feelings such as anger, jealousy,

envy etc, samadhi state is not manifest as Consciousness is

identified with such objects.

 

When understanding takes place through inquiy, contemplations,

meditation(if one has inclination to path of Gyan), then one

realizes one is not body-mind based separate person, and samadhi

happens naturally. When samadhi state happens naturally regardless

of presence ot abscence of objects as perceptions, conceptions,

arising in Consciousness, Consciousness is liberated and a state of

Sahaj samadhi happens. (Many saints such as Ramana Maharshi,

Ramkrishna Paramhansa were in such a state while being engaged in

activities, as I know).

 

It is apperception meaning Consciousness being conscious of Itself

(Sat-Chit-Ananda swarupa) rather than objects, in all situations.

(Like wave now knows it is really water even as it appears to be

wave from the mind's perspective).

Such realization is of primary importance, and samadhi state may be

an indication only.

 

It is equally possible to realize this by total Devotion, or being

engaged in selfless Karma within guidelines of Dharma. In such

pursuits Grace is bestowed upon Sadhakas by Bhgwaan. Bliss, Love,

Peace, Harmony, Intelligence, Beauty manifest in life of such a

sadhaka which is the same experience of oneness as narrated by

realized ones or Bhagwaan's devotees!

To summarize, it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neither

is the only path to liberation! Realization through spiritual

sadhana with predominence of Self-inquiry, Devotion, or Karma-Yoga

can lead to ultimate Grace! One knows undoubtedly ONE is

Consciousness(Chit), which is Impersonal Being(sat), and therefore

is at the same time Fullness-Bliss(Anada)!

 

Namaskar.....

 

Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

 

Moksha need not neccesarily by Yoga or become a brahma gnani to

released from cycle of life, in Krishna clearly says easiest way to

attain nirvana is thru true love towards him, thru gnana and yoga

the yogi or upasaka should fix a time to leave this itself requires

lot of knowledge and takes many births.

 

So when easily gnana moksha is available why to go for toughest

thing.

 

But a good food contains all items Dhyana is neccessary along with

Bhakthi to attain the goal.

 

But any one who has read the Gita easily can understand and manage

both.

 

MANY HAVE DOUBTS WHEN KRIHNA SAYS BHAKTHI TAKES U TO MOKSHA THE EASY

WAY AND ALSO MENTIONS TO CONCENTRATE ON HIM(dhyana) AND ALSO MENTIONS

TO KARMA YOGA.

 

WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND WE SHOULD PLAY MUTIPLE MARGAS (path) TO ATTAIN

MOKSHA (salvation).

 

PLEASE READ GITA BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION ASK URSELF ASK LORD INSIDE

YOU.

 

Shapur Shiva

-------------------------------

 

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HARIOM,

 

Proponents of Dhyana Yoga (Yoga of Meditation)say one must attain

Nivikalp samadhi (a very difficult task for most people) to

completely eradicate the VASANAS (desires, passions, impressions

remaining in the mind) from the causal body. Thus they express that

any one of the other paths of the Holy Gita is not a sufficient

condition for mukti (liberation, benediction, release from rebirth

in the world, emancipation). Please remove my doubts completely and

in detail.

 

Hari Om Roy

----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

What is Moksha and what is Bandhan ?

 

A story(this is how a monkey is caught)-

There are some chickpeas in a container. The mouth of the container

is very narrow. A monkey comes, sees the peas, put its hand in the

container and grab peas in his fist. Now it wants to take its hand

out from the container, but it cannot. Why ? so obvious. What it

need to do to get its hand out ? so obvious, just open the fist and

let the peas go. But no,no matter how hard he tries, he cannot take

his hand out.

Similarly we have grabbed this sansar/jagat. as soon as we

disconnect our selves with this sansar, we are free, Mukta.

Swamiji says - mukti sahaj hai(Liberation is easy). Bandhan mana hua

hai(Bondage is adopted). Because freedom is the true nature of SELF.

So to become free, mukta, no need for any samadhi. Swamiji often

says a highly evolved sadhak who has attained many siddhis may have

great experiences, he may wander different planes but its not

necessary that he will attain moksha.

 

with Love,

a Sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

------------------------------

YES, Brother Naga Narayana, you said it so nicely:

" Any yoga practiced rightly

automatically incorporates the rest - from this perspective, each is

COMPLETE in itself as well. "

 

here is another subset of the original question: ALL SADHANAS MUST

CULMINATE IN NIRVIKALP SAMADHI BEFORE MUKTI IS POSSIBLE ? in other

words, if one has not attained nirvikalp state, then one has a long

way to go? then another Question arises: is this samadhi a one time

deal or one has to be always or most of the time in that state?

 

Hari Om Roy

 

------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadaks,

 

Dyana yoga, Sahaja Yoga etc are same yoga prefixing Dyana

(meditation) to yoga. This is like God over Sahastra Nama, but

eventually GOD is one. Gowtham Rishi, Vasista, Viswamitra and so

many failed in yoga. In yoga the effort to be put is totally

cleansing the mind through out one` s life. Persons who succeeded

sometime fails, like the above stated Rishis at one part in their

lives. That is why Bagavan in Geetha says by Yoga one to reach HIM

may take several births. But becoming God's, developing a loving

relationship with Him, even while being in family, amidst society

and the world, living dharmic way as per the sastras, God

personally takes responsibility for such devotees and makes certain

that there is NO slippage from getting liberated.

 

Examples are many but few are being shared here:

Baktha Gora, pot maker accidentally stamped his son while meditating

on Panduranga. His wife in Anger said not to touch her. He remained

so for years. His wife married her sister to have issue to them.

But on wedding day the father in law promised to Gora to treat his

2cd daughter as he would treat his 1st wife. Gora said to his 2cd

wife on first night, that her elder sister was aloof from him and

so she also to remain aloof as promised by his father in law.

Having 2 wives Gora was singing and dancing in Bakthi without least

thought of senses. Wives one night touched hands of Gora who slain

ed his hands to keep up promise. God Panduranga came down as a

servant Rangan and worked in his house. Same was with Neelakanda

Nayanar Shiva Baktha where Bagavan Shiva came down to him. Bagavan

even touched and washed the feet of Kuchela for his love. Bagavan

even did shaving to King Badhusha on behalf of his Baktha. Bagavan

ran to save elephant Gajendra. What Prahalad did- Nava Rasa Bakthi

and Bagavan was always with him. For a cobbler (whose house even to

day exits) in Panderpur Bagavan stitched slipper for business. For a

housewife Sakubai, Bagavan took the form of Sankubai to fullfil her

desire to go to Panderpur and Bagavan was acting as Sakubai in her

house as servant. Sakubai dies in the temple when she is overwhelmed

seeing Moorthy Panduranga in the temple. She was cremated. But

Bagavan Shiva raises her to life from ashes. One can visit her house

in Gopalpur even today. A lady by name Poogodhai was raised to life

from Hasti (Ashes of Poogodhai) right in presence of public in a

temple Kabaleesvar- Mylapore in Chennai by a saint Thiru Gyna

Sambather.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

Respected Hari Om Roy,

 

Appreciate your remarks. Following is what revolves around in me at

this point

 

Dhyana " The intellect established in focus on an object for

appreciation Yoga "

Absolute Unison

Dhyana Yoga " Appreciation (of anything) in Absolute Unison

 

Dhyana yoga is a self-sufficient phrase as Bhagavan Vyaasa puts it

forward in the first place.

 

Being pulled apart from two polarities in our existence " individual

and universe

" we qualify this unique concept further:

 

Aatma Dhyana Yoga " Self Appreciation Brahma Dhyana Yoga " Universal

Appreciation

 

The inertially ignorant mind cannot fathom anything but an object

(Vishaya) and its image in its senses (Indriyas) and hence gravitates

all suggestions to the same Vishayendriya cluster (sensorial images

of object)

and hence looses the Absolute Unison intended in the first

place. Often, it is diluted to the perceived duo " vishaya and

indriya.

 

Vishaya Dhyana Yoga: Absolute appreciation of any object is enough.

Even " the letter, the pronunciation, the sound, the shape, the

syllable, its medium, its source, its destiny, its constitution, its

composites, etc. " is enough. If it is too simple … Aum … Omkara

Dhyana. Vishaya Dhyana in its purity tends toward Brahma Dhyana.

 

Indriya Dhyana Yoga: Absolute appreciation of any sense is also

sensible enough. Just an utterance is enough to pace toward the

absolute through the same sensory signal in truthful pursuit as

Krishna says very often in Gita - Indriyaaneendriyaartheshu. The

same Omkara helps to traverse inward as well. Indriya Dhyana in its

purity tends toward Aatma Dhyana.

 

The intended Dhyana Yoga becomes Dhyana Roga as the partial, lopsided

and wishful appreciation of oneself (subject) as well as the objects

(and their images in terms of actions, thoughts and desires) around

increases. Neither the subject (Aatman) nor the object (Brahman) is

appreciated in Absolute Unison. The subject is appreciated in terms

of

objectional images and the objects are appreciated in terms of

subjective desires, thoughts and actions. As such, there is nothing

wrong in either vishaya or in indriya … but, the corruption is in

our

perception of the same.

 

On the other hand, dwelling in three apparent domains in three

inherent forms, we cannot but gravitate to one of the three clusters

closest to our nature " physical, perceptional and experiential worlds

in terms of actions, thoughts and desires. Accordingly the same

Dhyana Yoga is

recommend with alternative adjectives from different schools of

thoughts:

 

Aatma Dhyana Yoga " Experiential Appreciation in the domain of desires

(aatma-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Gowdapada, Shankara, Ramana,

…)

Daiva Dhyana Yoga " Perceptional Appreciation in the domain of

thoughts (daiva-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Vallabha, Ramanuja,

Madhva)

Bhuta Dhyana Yoga " Existential Appreciation in the domain of actions

(bhouta-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Chaarvaaka, and most of us)

 

When the focus is turned to a limited identity, practical difficulty

of loosing the original intent is faced. We add another adjective to

emphasize on the basis for each rather than the tip of the ice berg

in each

domain:

 

Aadhyaatma Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Experiential Appreciation

Adhidaiva Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Perceptional Appreciation

Adhibhuta Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Existential Appreciation

 

The above three are also often referenced as Bhakti Yoga, Gnyaana

Yoga, and Karma Yoga with variant overlaps on each other.

 

Details are added perpetually distinctions are made that are lost in

the heap of overlapping attributes we loose the understanding

that the real appreciation of anything is in its simplicity and not in

complexity nothing was required and nothing is required the

helpless mind needs some support as soon as it is given a choice, it

floods with its own images for its own sustenance.

As Ramana puts it, the mind flies around chasing the smoke and

fragrances dispersed from a sandle stick Dhyana is to push it to the

source of all smoke and fragrance around " the tip of the sandle

stick it runs away we should bring it the focal point that is the game Dhyana

Yoga! That is Karma Yoga, as well as Gnyaana Yoga as well as Bhakti Yoga as well

as any other yoga all for ONE and ONLY ONE to be THAT. You can call it Samadhi

or Mukti or God or anything else.

 

Your observations are valid our pre-conditioned existence appears to

drift in variant directions. The wisdom is to integrate the

fragmented presence in all the domains of our existence " be it actions, or

thoughts, or desires " concurrently. No multiple paths are prescribed in Gita to

my understanding. ONE HAS TO CLEANSE ONESELF IN ALL RESPECTS, IN ALL THE

EIGHTEEN DOMAINS IDENTIFIED

IN GITA! My understanding is to practice The Yoga in its completeness rather

than in its fragment that appeals to me. Starting point is the same " Vishada and

ending point is the same " Moksha Sanyasa. Every yoga in between is a building

block to complete this puzzle for me. NONE OF THEM HAVE ANY INDEPENDENT

EXISTENCE AS SUCH. ALL THE EIGHTEEN SERVE THE SINGLE PURPOSE " TO BE

THAT.

 

Personally, I do not to the popular acceptance that each

yoga or path can have their own credits. They have credits only in

unison with the rest in my appreciation. Any yoga practiced rightly

automatically incorporates the rest - from this perspective, each is

COMPLETE in itself as well. As far as The Truth at the pedestal of

one's presence, anything is fine and everything is fine because

anything and everything floods toward THAT.

 

If you have any specific question/objection to this, pl. feel free

express the same. I will attempt to address as I can.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Brother Naga Narayana says the question is redundant, it is not.

Journeyman faces the problem which Sadhana to do to reach the goal.

once you reach the goal then and then only QUESTION becomes

redundant. here are some more thoughts for your consideration and

comments:

 

IS THERE ONLY ONE RIGHT

 

WAY TO GOD?

 

Lord Krishna has been talking about both manifest and unmanifest

aspects of God in the previous chapters. Arjun's question has been

answered in great detail in this chapter, but people still argue

that one method of worship or certain religious practices are better

than others. Such persons only understand half the truth. In our

opinion, it is quite clear that the method of worship depends on the

nature of the individual. The person or the person's guru should

find out which path will be most suitable for the individual,

depending on the person's temperament. To force his or her own

method of worship on people is the greatest disservice a guru can do

to disciples. The important thing is to develop faith in and love of

God. God

has the power to manifest before a devotee in any form, regardless

of the

devotee's chosen form of worship.

 

What has worked for one may not work for all. There was no need for

the Lord to

discuss different paths of yoga if there was one path for all. If

the chosen

path of spiritual discipline does not give one peace or God-

realization, then it

must be understood that one is not practicing correctly or the path

is not right

for the individual.

 

Hari Om Roy

 

-------------------------------

 

Sir,

To represent the things in scientific ways,I like to say that'

It is now a fact that chemical rexs can create electric egergy and

eectric flow is result of oxidation,i.e. electron formation.In human

body also this simple system leads to energy and life.So,smadhi

means actually to control a reaction or control the generation of

electrons.Naturally it can lead to more life but of courst,provided

the chemical rex also is controlled,but not stopped.So,by limiting

intake and smadhi can increase life,but also decreases the current

to work.So,gita is now a base for science facts.

Regards,

sayal123

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

No ! Samadhi is certainly not a necessary condition for Moksha-

the " mineness " - an exclusive " mineness " with Paramatma is however a

desirable requirement for liberation. In fact, disconnection with

inert is essential condition for Liberation- whether that comes

through Karma Yoga or Jnana Yoga. For Bhakti Yoga , Mineness with

Paramatma is essential.

 

There is one more type of Samadhi- called " Sahaj Samadhi " . That is

necessary end result of liberation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

This a question filled with contradictions and inconsistencies.

 

Neither Samadhi is a condition nor Moksha a target.

 

State where no conditions can raise from, where no conditions can

survive and where all the conditions are completely obliterated is

Samadhi.

 

State where no targets can emerge from, where no targets can persist

and where all the targets are completely annihilated is Moksha.

 

They are synanmous to each other where there cannot be any necessity

or requirement as such.

 

Therefore, this question is redundant in itself for me.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

Bhagavan has said to Arjuna, " When I (GOD) am in front why you want

to know about all this knowledge " . Samadhi levels, different types

of yogas, Etc is not necessary when Bhagavan comes to you. Buddhi +

yoga = Buddhi yoga. So there is prefix Buddhi to yoga. So also in

other cases. But for Bakthi (worship, devotion, love of God) there

is no prefix. Why? Because Bakthi is crown of all spiritual

practices. Bakthi is unconditional constant and No change in any

condition in love towards GOD. Besides what Bakthi makes? All yogas

and samadhi levels in the world put together is practice to silence

the mind from totally to remove Vasanas. This type of practices by

one` s effort. So Bhagavan just remains witness to see how far you

can succeed. Bhagavan has clearly said in Geetha that by Yoga or by

Tapas (austerities) one can reach HIM after serveral births.

Bhagavan in same Geetha has also clearly said that HE can liberate a

person in one single (same Jalma) by HIS Sankalpa (resolve, vow).

Does it not seem contradictory? NO. First instance you are making

Sankalpa (will, resolve, intentions) to reach HIM. Whereas in second

instance Bagavan is making HIS sankalpa (resolve) to liberate you.

Simple Example: 1) Finite is trying to reach infinite. (2) Infinite

is trying to pull finite. Which will succeed? In prakuthi also Mass

can attract molecule. Bagavan has said that HE takes care of HIS

bhakta (devotees), if bhakta fails in his attempt. Bagavan has

given a designation as " Yoga Brasta " to such soul failed in bakthi

(worship and devotion).

In Sri Ranga Mahatyiyam script, mother Lakshmi points out to a

bhakta saying that he is doing mistakes. Bhagavan immediately says

to mother Lakshmi, " Here after YOU take care of YOUR baktha and I

(Bagavan) will take care of MY baktha " . One can see from scripts

that yogis are subjected to abuse and torcher. Where as Bakthas are

immediately rescued by Bagavan. When Bagavan has said in simple

terms, " Surrender to ME " , means love (Bhakti) why ponder over many

things.

Lastly the cat story of doing certain practices is Gift from Bagavan

to animals alone called Instinct. We humans have No instinct and the

gift of intellect from God is unused.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

------------------------

In our religion, the first 25 years are spent in learning, next 25

in married life, next 25 in religious activities with one's spouse

and the last 25 in sanyas. This is the time when one is free from

worldly duties and can totally concentrate(dhyan) or meditate and

become one with the Self and attain Nirvikalp samadhi and moksha or

liberation from the endless cycle of birth and death. There are

other paths like Karm yog and Gyan yog also but these take time.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

--------------------------

 

 

--------------------------

 

dear sadaks,

Nirvikalpa samadhi etc are difficult tasks which are performed by

yogis. Vasanas cannot go that easily. But short cut is Bakthi Marg.

In this Marg Bagavan comes to you rather than you searching HIM.

Examples: Bagavan came to numerous saints, played with them, lived

with them, protected them Baktha Gora, Purander Doss, Tukaram,

Pundalikan, Sakubai, Meera bai etc etc. These saints underwent

sufferings (which we feel) but they hardly knew what was happening.

Bakthi is surrender. Easy and simple way. Here your effort is Zero.

In samadhi level your effort is maximum.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

 

Hari Om.

 

I saw a kitten in my friend's house today.

It had lost its mother soon after it was born.

It never knew that it was a kitten and left alone.

without any observation or company of a cat, it does exactly

what a cat does.

To pass stool it dug a pit and pushed the mud back after passing

stool.

Now tell me who taught it to behave like a cat?

Its the impression of the brain that was formed when it was in its

mother's womb.

The same way all of act according to the impressions that are in our

brain from the day we entered our mother's womb.

This way we carry the good and bad deeds of previous birth

when we enter our mother's womb.

The karma cycle starts here for this birth.

For the good deeds we get comfort and for the bad deeds we

getdiscomfort

and misery.

MOKSHA IS THE PROCESS BY WHICH WE RELIEVE URSELVES

 

FROM THIS CYCLE OF KARMA.

 

This can be attained only by doing Sadhana.

Ths Sadhana takes us to SAMADHI.

Samadhi is the state where our soul light removes our karma.

This is the TRUTH OF GEETHA TOLD BY KRUSHNA IN KAPILA CHARITHRAM.

THis is known as Shankya Yoga in GEETHA.

with regards,

 

Usha sridhar

----------------------------

 

Yogiraj Madhvacarya's Response (Posted by HariOm Roy for the benefit

of the group)

 

It is a fact that unless one reaches into the causal body and works

at it on the causal plane, one cannot completely eradicate the

vasanas. Gita has given the path of buddhi yoga in chapter two,

especially in the last portion of chapter two as the solution and

instead of nirvikalpa, we get the term brahmanirvanam.

 

Gita enunciated two paths as karma yoga and jnana yoga. The path of

jnana yoga has within it the potential to attain the eradications of

the vasanas, but in my opinion the path of karma yoga will not

remove the vasanas but will remove most of the inconvenient or

undesirable vasanas.

 

If someone does not see that the path of jnana yoga and particularly

the buddhi yoga techniques discussed by Sri Krishna as containing

the solution of the problem of the vasanas, it means that the person

does not understand the Sanskrit terms and is giving those terms

insufficient meanings.

 

But in that case if one goes to the Uddhava Gita, one will get a

more in-depth and detailed instruction for that jnana yoga and then

one's doubts about Gita should be removed.

 

Buddhi yoga as given in Bhagavad Gita is a practice which was taught

by Sri Krishna to both the jnana yogis and the karma yogis. Karma

yogis students like Arjuna got that skill through the practice of

elementary meditation yoga and with that psychological proficiency,

they applied this to their life in the cultural world, as

politicians, state officials and state warriors. The proficiency of

this for a karma yogi shows by his detachment when punishing and

impartiality when dealing with citizens. Thus Krishna requested

Arjuna to exhibit the buddhi yoga proficient on the battlefield of

Kurukshetra, just as Janak and other legendary kings did in the

Vedic history.

 

Basically speaking the meditative yoga practice of those karma yogis

ended with this buddhi yoga and its result in their life was

highlighted by their detachment and impartially.

 

First we begin by defining yoga and to do so we must go to

Patanjali. He gave us an eight (8) part system which become known

also as Ashtanga yoga.

 

Thus bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga. Buddhi yoga is buddhi+yoga. Jnana

yoga is jnana+yoga. Atma yoga is atma+ yoga and so on. In this way

we will be clear when we use these terms. Now if we agree that

bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga, then what is bhakti? The answer is

that bhakti is bhakti. The next question is : Can someone reach

perfection by bhakti alone.. And the answer is that scriptures give

us examples of persons who did just that, persons like the gopis.

 

Then there is another question, why do yoga and then apply it to

bhakti if one can reach perfection by bhakti alone. The answer is

obvious, that it would be foolish to do yoga and apply bhakti if you

can reach perfection by bhakti alone. Therefore we accept that only

those who will fail at bhakti by itself should do yoga and then do

bhakti.

 

But then there is another question as to why even bother with yoga .

The answer to that is given by Sri Krishna when he defined the

purpose of yoga as atmavishuddha in Chapter 6 verse 12.

 

Therefore if one finds that his or her bhakti is not getting

perfection, that person may do yoga for purification of the psyche

(atma), the psychological energies. Then when yoga is successful in

that purpose, he or she can apply bhakti and get the desired success.

 

Buddhi yoga? What is that?

 

That is the application of yoga practice to curbing and purifying

the intellect, the buddhi. It has to do with that one aspect only,

the buddhi. It concerns nothing else. It is the process of curbing

the buddhi by meditational techniques.

 

The mastership of the 5th pratyahar stage of yoga and the beginning

practice of the 6th dharana stage concerns buddhi yoga, the curbing

and subjugation of the buddhi organ in the subtle body.

 

The difficulty with implementing the removal of the vasanas, has to

do with the deficiency of the human being. This deficiency comes

from the natural way which is to focus into the gross plane of

existence. Due to that we have no accurate knowledge or experience

of the subtle existence. And to make matters worse, the causal plane

is even more abstract than the subtle level.

 

How many of us are willing to take up a sadhana which would cause an

increase in subtle perception? How many of us would make that our

top priority to do whatever would be necessary to shut down most of

our physical interest and to put our attention over to the subtle

side.

 

I feel this is our impediment.

 

The causal level, which has within it the seed energies (bija) of

the vasanas, cannot be reached until we develop very subtle

perception. How can you affect something which you can neither see

nor feel. So first we have to get subtle vision then super subtle

vision then we can tackle the root energies of the vasanas which

influence and dominate us on this level.

 

From this physical plane we cannot eradicate the vasanas because

their supportive and motivational roots are coming from the causal

level. We can however limited their main manifestation if we apply

strong moral principles in an attempt to restrict vices and promote

a righteous lifestyle (dharma).

 

Over time of practicing dharma, one develops some resistance to some

of the very gross and vulgar vasanas. From this one develops a

strength to challenge the motivational forces, and then gradually

one develops introspection and moves into higher yoga practice. Thus

karma yoga serves as a stepping stone to jnana yoga which is the

practice for directly challenging the vasanas first in the subtle

body and then at their rooting on the causal plane.

 

One easy way to understand the difference between nirvikalpa and

savikalpa samadhi is through the example of one electric circuit

which has only a light bulb and another circuit which has a light

bulb and a meter.

 

The electric supply or generator would serve as representing God or

representing the supreme brahman, while the bulb and its little

circuit presents the jiva or yogi. When we plug the circuit into the

electric supply, the light glows, because it is connected to that

power..

 

In the second example there is a meter attached to the bulb ,

whereby when the circuit is plugged in, the bulb glows but the meter

also registers a certain quality of current.

 

In the first example the bulb gets the full current and is fully

charged with the supreme power, while in the second example only

some of the current is used by the bulb since the meter which

measures the current, absorbs some of the electric force.

 

Thus in the second example the yogi's mind which measures and

analyzes the power which flows from the Supreme, causes a reduction

in his contact with the Supreme power.

 

The advantage of the first example is that the yogi gets to feel the

full supreme power, while in the second example the yogi cannot

experience the full power but is better able to describe his

experience because he was able to measure the intensity of the

supreme power/

 

In the first example, after the samadhi the yogi might say, " I

experience it but there is no way that I can describe it to you. It

was fully subjective. It was not objective. It was like: I was it

and it was me. "

 

In the second case the yogi might say, " I measured it as I

experienced it. I will describe it to you. I was objective to it.

 

Madhavacharya (Michael Beloved)

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Please correct the misconcept that Holy Gita is insufficient by

reading and assimilating verse 66 of chapter 18. What is Moksh? What

is Mukti? What is Nirvan? What is Realization of Self? All these are

beyond body mind mechanism whereas samadhi of any type or kind is

within it and ends with vyutthaan.

please be specific as to how and where Gita is found insufficient.

Thanks and Regards,

Sarvottam

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Just a quick observation on Divakaranji's post.

Sure, it is a great worship when whatever we do as Krishnaarpanam.

Such sustained worshiping attitude can lead one to Moksha because

the highest one can offer(arpana to Krishna) is oneself-ego in total

surrender!

But Moksha or Mukti is not a matter of individual perception, rather

freedom from Individuality itself! Moksha is when " individual " is

seen as illusion, and all his/her perceptions including " I am an

individual with this body-mind " dissolves into THAT which IS! It is

the only Reality/Atman/Brahman/God and cannot be perceived(by mind)

because IT perceives everything, even mind-body-world.

Namaskar.............

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

My dear Sadhak Gurujan,

When whatever we do is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itself

constitutes worship. Whether Moksha or Mukti is thus achieved is a

matter of individual perception.

 

Subbanarasu Divakaran

 

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In my seeing, it is the most important that one realizes what one

truly IS!, not as one thinks or believes one is! Samadhi as I

understand it, is a state which comes and goes, so " we " cannot be

such a state. We are THAT whatever THAT may be, in which such states

come and go, but we don't ever come or go as Consciousness!

Upon investigation we may discover that such state as savikalpa

samadhi arises in our Consciousness (which is also our Beingness) in

meditation while focusing on God or breath etc., and when samadhi

state leaves us it goes back to same Consciousness just as wave

arising and vanishing back to ocean(water really). We know " we " are

Ocean of Consciousness even when waves arise or vanish.

 

Nirvikalpa samadhi is when Consciousness is devoid of objects

experienced only as thoughts in mind and sensations/feelings in

body. In otherword, Consciousness being Conscious of ITSELF,

liberating from limitations of objects.

Due to desires, vaasanas, attachments etc one is constantly occupied

by objects of perceptions and/or feelings such as anger, jealousy,

envy etc, samadhi state is not manifest as Consciousness is

identified with such objects.

 

When understanding takes place through inquiy, contemplations,

meditation(if one has inclination to path of Gyan), then one

realizes one is not body-mind based separate person, and samadhi

happens naturally. When samadhi state happens naturally regardless

of presence ot abscence of objects as perceptions, conceptions,

arising in Consciousness, Consciousness is liberated and a state of

Sahaj samadhi happens. (Many saints such as Ramana Maharshi,

Ramkrishna Paramhansa were in such a state while being engaged in

activities, as I know).

 

It is apperception meaning Consciousness being conscious of Itself

(Sat-Chit-Ananda swarupa) rather than objects, in all situations.

(Like wave now knows it is really water even as it appears to be

wave from the mind's perspective).

Such realization is of primary importance, and samadhi state may be

an indication only.

 

It is equally possible to realize this by total Devotion, or being

engaged in selfless Karma within guidelines of Dharma. In such

pursuits Grace is bestowed upon Sadhakas by Bhgwaan. Bliss, Love,

Peace, Harmony, Intelligence, Beauty manifest in life of such a

sadhaka which is the same experience of oneness as narrated by

realized ones or Bhagwaan's devotees!

To summarize, it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neither

is the only path to liberation! Realization through spiritual

sadhana with predominence of Self-inquiry, Devotion, or Karma-Yoga

can lead to ultimate Grace! One knows undoubtedly ONE is

Consciousness(Chit), which is Impersonal Being(sat), and therefore

is at the same time Fullness-Bliss(Anada)!

 

Namaskar.....

 

Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

 

Moksha need not neccesarily by Yoga or become a brahma gnani to

released from cycle of life, in Krishna clearly says easiest way to

attain nirvana is thru true love towards him, thru gnana and yoga

the yogi or upasaka should fix a time to leave this itself requires

lot of knowledge and takes many births.

 

So when easily gnana moksha is available why to go for toughest

thing.

 

But a good food contains all items Dhyana is neccessary along with

Bhakthi to attain the goal.

 

But any one who has read the Gita easily can understand and manage

both.

 

MANY HAVE DOUBTS WHEN KRIHNA SAYS BHAKTHI TAKES U TO MOKSHA THE EASY

WAY AND ALSO MENTIONS TO CONCENTRATE ON HIM(dhyana) AND ALSO MENTIONS

TO KARMA YOGA.

 

WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND WE SHOULD PLAY MUTIPLE MARGAS (path) TO ATTAIN

MOKSHA (salvation).

 

PLEASE READ GITA BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION ASK URSELF ASK LORD INSIDE

YOU.

 

Shapur Shiva

-------------------------------

 

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MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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HARIOM,

 

Proponents of Dhyana Yoga (Yoga of Meditation)say one must attain

Nivikalp samadhi (a very difficult task for most people) to

completely eradicate the VASANAS (desires, passions, impressions

remaining in the mind) from the causal body. Thus they express that

any one of the other paths of the Holy Gita is not a sufficient

condition for mukti (liberation, benediction, release from rebirth

in the world, emancipation). Please remove my doubts completely and

in detail.

 

Hari Om Roy

----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

SUMMARY TO DATE - SADHAK RESONSES-

 

Liberation (Freedom) is releasing that which we have grabbed hold off

Liberation is very easy as freedom is the true nature of SELF

So to become free, mukta, no need for any samadhi.

Samadhi is a state of the kaaran sharir that is connected to nature.

Disconnection with inert is essential condition for Liberation-

Mineness with Paramatma is essential. " Sahaj Samadhi " is

necessary end result of liberation. What is Mukti? Moksha? Nirvan?

Self Realization? All are beyond body mind mechanism whereas samadhi

of any type or kind is within it and ends with vyutthaan (rising).

Eternal attachment with God treating samadhi, siddhis as tucha

(small, insignificant) is true liberation or moksha.

Bhagavan says - What you want to know when I am in front of you.

In Dyana yoga, Sahaja Yoga etc. easy to slip; can take several births

By becoming God's, He personally takes responsibility for moksha

Any yoga practiced rightly automatically incorporates the rest. Each

is COMPLETE in itself as well. Anything and everything floods toward

THAT. Method of worship depends on the nature of the individual.

important thing is to develop faith in and love of God. God has the

power to manifest before a devotee in any form, regardless of the

devotee's chosen form of worship. Samadhi = to control a reaction

or control a generation of electrons. gita is now a base for science

facts. Neither Samadhi is a condition nor Moksha a target. State

where no targets can emerge from, where no targets can persist and

where all the targets are completely annihilated is Moksha.

Samadhi or Mukti is the natural state, ever present.

Bhagavan said , " When I (GOD) am in front why you want to know about

all this knowledge " i.e. Samadhi levels, different types of yogas,

etc. is not necessary when Bhagavan comes to you. Bakthi is crown of

all spiritual practices. " Surrender to ME " , means love (Bhakti).

Nirvikalpa samadhi etc are difficult. Short cut is Bakthi Marg.

Moksha is the process by which we relieve ourselves from the cycle

of karma. This is done through sadhana - Sankhya Yoga.

Moksha is when " individual " with this body-mind " dissolves into THAT

which IS! Reality/Atman/Brahman/God and cannot be perceived(by mind)

because IT perceives everything, even mind-body-world. whatever we

do is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itself constitutes worship.

Moksha or Mukti is a matter of individual perception

Krishna says - easiest way to attain nirvana is thru true love

towards Him. Even Samadhi state comes and goes. We (Self) is beyond

that. it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neither

is it the only path to liberation!

 

From Gita Talk Moderators

-----------------------------

 

pRIY SADHAK

samadhi is state if kaaran sharir which is again connected to nature.

Understanding self is ultimate

pl follow it

thanx

raja gurdasani

 

----------------------

RAM RAM

 

sajjan shri,

 

Swamiramsukhdasji in his " Sadhak-Sanjeevani " (Shreemadhbhagvadgita)

says that, stages like samadhi or siddhi is also material. These

stages can get destroyed by senses even if one attains them.

So " Sahaj yoga " is recommended ie in God or Ram or Shri Krishna

consciousness to practice karmas . For moksha if samadhi gets khandit

(broken) with time or senses after samadhis attainment , one then

realises futility of such conditions (samadhi siddhi) because they

are material conditions.

 

Eternal attachement with god treating samadhi, siddhis as tucha

(small, insignificant) is true liberation or moksha, because samadhi

siddhi dont liberate even mukti may not be possible by samadhi

siddhi what to tell of moksha.

 

Just living in god told way of bhavatgita is enough. You will get

moksha. And to get mokhsa complete surrendering to god Krishnaji is

enough without desiring even moksha mukti, any greed or lust, is a

necessary. THe spirit of Meerabai ie " Mera to girdhar Gopal Doosaro

na koi " . By " Koi " is not accepting any dependence on anything

material is spirit of surrenderring and in that stage you will get

ultimate peace or Moksha.

 

Yours truly,

Kalrav Pande

-------------------------

Dear Sadaks and eminent Sanskrit scholars kindly give your comments

with explanation very briefly for the below;

VADHANTHU SASTRANI,

YAJANTHU DEVANI,

KURVANTHU KARMANI,

BAJANTHU DEVATHAYAHA,

ATHUMA AAIKIYA BOTHENA,

VANAHI MUKTHI----NHASIDHYATE,

BHRAMA SATANTRA REPINE.

 

The above meaning co relates to Bagavan in Geetha saying to

Arjuna, " What you want to know when I (Bagavan) is in front of you.

Similarly in Geetha Bagavan says in one instance " Moodhaha "

(Ignorant people). Again this also relates to Bikshu Geetha Bagavan

delivered.

Crisp answer will make a reader understand better.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

---------------------------

 

Dear Hariji,

 

Nirvikalp or Savikalp are two different images captured in one's

mind - pl. note that both are based on the vikalp, a mental choice.

The Samadhi or mukti where such images are not needed on one hand

and cannot stay on the other hand is ever existent. For the sake of

conversational convenience, we often refer this state as Nirvikalp.

We should be cognizant that even the " nirvikalpatva " as perceived by

mind looses its presence just like the " savikalpatva " in such

natural presence.

 

As I see, Samadhi or Mukti is ever-present every-where. Samadhi or

Mukti is the natural state of all and therefore cannot be

characterized in any manner. Due to our preceptional ignorance and

existential inertia fuelled perptually by experiential desire-fear

cluster, we perpetually imagine to be not in THAT! One who realizes

has just cleared this opaqueness within ... you can call such

realization " Nirvikalpa " or " Nirvana " or " Sthitapragnyaa " or

Equanimity etc., no problem as far as they retain no significance in

themselves, as far as they do not become a concept (vikalpa) in

one's mind.

 

Once a desciple approaches Buddha to say he attained " emptyness " in

his mind. Buddha slaps him hard ... " That emptyness is filling your

mind! Emoty that as well!! " The mind has this terrible tendency to

make a vikalpa of everything ... even the nirvikalpatva or samadhi

or mukti ... My caution is toward that tendency ... not otherwise.

However you call or address THAT, THAT remains what IT IS.

 

Whether Mukti is one time or not is self-evident from the above. IT

never occurs since IT is ever present. IT can not be handled like

anything else perceived e.g. having it once, twice, thrice, etc. In

fact, one can never " have " THAT ... but one can always " be " THAT ...

rather everything " is " always THAT. I would say every one receives

the warmth from THAT every moment for the sheer existence. Most

have no clue of that; few imagine that; very few attain that

knowledgibly; very very few remain THERE as such ... the oftenness

is applicable to our ignorance and inertia - how often we break the

opaqueness of our ignorance and inertia is countable; NOT THAT!

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

What is Moksha and what is Bandhan ?

 

A story(this is how a monkey is caught)-

There are some chickpeas in a container. The mouth of the container

is very narrow. A monkey comes, sees the peas, put its hand in the

container and grab peas in his fist. Now it wants to take its hand

out from the container, but it cannot. Why ? so obvious. What it

need to do to get its hand out ? so obvious, just open the fist and

let the peas go. But no,no matter how hard he tries, he cannot take

his hand out.

Similarly we have grabbed this sansar/jagat. as soon as we

disconnect our selves with this sansar, we are free, Mukta.

Swamiji says - mukti sahaj hai(Liberation is easy). Bandhan mana hua

hai(Bondage is adopted). Because freedom is the true nature of SELF.

So to become free, mukta, no need for any samadhi. Swamiji often

says a highly evolved sadhak who has attained many siddhis may have

great experiences, he may wander different planes but its not

necessary that he will attain moksha.

 

with Love,

a Sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

------------------------------

YES, Brother Naga Narayana, you said it so nicely:

" Any yoga practiced rightly

automatically incorporates the rest - from this perspective, each is

COMPLETE in itself as well. "

 

here is another subset of the original question: ALL SADHANAS MUST

CULMINATE IN NIRVIKALP SAMADHI BEFORE MUKTI IS POSSIBLE ? in other

words, if one has not attained nirvikalp state, then one has a long

way to go? then another Question arises: is this samadhi a one time

deal or one has to be always or most of the time in that state?

 

Hari Om Roy

 

------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadaks,

 

Dyana yoga, Sahaja Yoga etc are same yoga prefixing Dyana

(meditation) to yoga. This is like God over Sahastra Nama, but

eventually GOD is one. Gowtham Rishi, Vasista, Viswamitra and so

many failed in yoga. In yoga the effort to be put is totally

cleansing the mind through out one` s life. Persons who succeeded

sometime fails, like the above stated Rishis at one part in their

lives. That is why Bagavan in Geetha says by Yoga one to reach HIM

may take several births. But becoming God's, developing a loving

relationship with Him, even while being in family, amidst society

and the world, living dharmic way as per the sastras, God

personally takes responsibility for such devotees and makes certain

that there is NO slippage from getting liberated.

 

Examples are many but few are being shared here:

Baktha Gora, pot maker accidentally stamped his son while meditating

on Panduranga. His wife in Anger said not to touch her. He remained

so for years. His wife married her sister to have issue to them.

But on wedding day the father in law promised to Gora to treat his

2cd daughter as he would treat his 1st wife. Gora said to his 2cd

wife on first night, that her elder sister was aloof from him and

so she also to remain aloof as promised by his father in law.

Having 2 wives Gora was singing and dancing in Bakthi without least

thought of senses. Wives one night touched hands of Gora who slain

ed his hands to keep up promise. God Panduranga came down as a

servant Rangan and worked in his house. Same was with Neelakanda

Nayanar Shiva Baktha where Bagavan Shiva came down to him. Bagavan

even touched and washed the feet of Kuchela for his love. Bagavan

even did shaving to King Badhusha on behalf of his Baktha. Bagavan

ran to save elephant Gajendra. What Prahalad did- Nava Rasa Bakthi

and Bagavan was always with him. For a cobbler (whose house even to

day exits) in Panderpur Bagavan stitched slipper for business. For a

housewife Sakubai, Bagavan took the form of Sankubai to fullfil her

desire to go to Panderpur and Bagavan was acting as Sakubai in her

house as servant. Sakubai dies in the temple when she is overwhelmed

seeing Moorthy Panduranga in the temple. She was cremated. But

Bagavan Shiva raises her to life from ashes. One can visit her house

in Gopalpur even today. A lady by name Poogodhai was raised to life

from Hasti (Ashes of Poogodhai) right in presence of public in a

temple Kabaleesvar- Mylapore in Chennai by a saint Thiru Gyna

Sambather.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

Respected Hari Om Roy,

 

Appreciate your remarks. Following is what revolves around in me at

this point

 

Dhyana " The intellect established in focus on an object for

appreciation Yoga "

Absolute Unison

Dhyana Yoga " Appreciation (of anything) in Absolute Unison

 

Dhyana yoga is a self-sufficient phrase as Bhagavan Vyaasa puts it

forward in the first place.

 

Being pulled apart from two polarities in our existence " individual

and universe

" we qualify this unique concept further:

 

Aatma Dhyana Yoga " Self Appreciation Brahma Dhyana Yoga " Universal

Appreciation

 

The inertially ignorant mind cannot fathom anything but an object

(Vishaya) and its image in its senses (Indriyas) and hence gravitates

all suggestions to the same Vishayendriya cluster (sensorial images

of object)

and hence looses the Absolute Unison intended in the first

place. Often, it is diluted to the perceived duo " vishaya and

indriya.

 

Vishaya Dhyana Yoga: Absolute appreciation of any object is enough.

Even " the letter, the pronunciation, the sound, the shape, the

syllable, its medium, its source, its destiny, its constitution, its

composites, etc. " is enough. If it is too simple … Aum … Omkara

Dhyana. Vishaya Dhyana in its purity tends toward Brahma Dhyana.

 

Indriya Dhyana Yoga: Absolute appreciation of any sense is also

sensible enough. Just an utterance is enough to pace toward the

absolute through the same sensory signal in truthful pursuit as

Krishna says very often in Gita - Indriyaaneendriyaartheshu. The

same Omkara helps to traverse inward as well. Indriya Dhyana in its

purity tends toward Aatma Dhyana.

 

The intended Dhyana Yoga becomes Dhyana Roga as the partial, lopsided

and wishful appreciation of oneself (subject) as well as the objects

(and their images in terms of actions, thoughts and desires) around

increases. Neither the subject (Aatman) nor the object (Brahman) is

appreciated in Absolute Unison. The subject is appreciated in terms

of

objectional images and the objects are appreciated in terms of

subjective desires, thoughts and actions. As such, there is nothing

wrong in either vishaya or in indriya … but, the corruption is in

our

perception of the same.

 

On the other hand, dwelling in three apparent domains in three

inherent forms, we cannot but gravitate to one of the three clusters

closest to our nature " physical, perceptional and experiential worlds

in terms of actions, thoughts and desires. Accordingly the same

Dhyana Yoga is

recommend with alternative adjectives from different schools of

thoughts:

 

Aatma Dhyana Yoga " Experiential Appreciation in the domain of desires

(aatma-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Gowdapada, Shankara, Ramana,

…)

Daiva Dhyana Yoga " Perceptional Appreciation in the domain of

thoughts (daiva-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Vallabha, Ramanuja,

Madhva)

Bhuta Dhyana Yoga " Existential Appreciation in the domain of actions

(bhouta-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Chaarvaaka, and most of us)

 

When the focus is turned to a limited identity, practical difficulty

of loosing the original intent is faced. We add another adjective to

emphasize on the basis for each rather than the tip of the ice berg

in each

domain:

 

Aadhyaatma Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Experiential Appreciation

Adhidaiva Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Perceptional Appreciation

Adhibhuta Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Existential Appreciation

 

The above three are also often referenced as Bhakti Yoga, Gnyaana

Yoga, and Karma Yoga with variant overlaps on each other.

 

Details are added perpetually distinctions are made that are lost in

the heap of overlapping attributes we loose the understanding

that the real appreciation of anything is in its simplicity and not

in

complexity nothing was required and nothing is required the

helpless mind needs some support as soon as it is given a choice, it

floods with its own images for its own sustenance.

As Ramana puts it, the mind flies around chasing the smoke and

fragrances dispersed from a sandle stick Dhyana is to push it to the

source of all smoke and fragrance around " the tip of the sandle

stick it runs away we should bring it the focal point that is the

game Dhyana

Yoga! That is Karma Yoga, as well as Gnyaana Yoga as well as Bhakti

Yoga as well

as any other yoga all for ONE and ONLY ONE to be THAT. You can call

it Samadhi

or Mukti or God or anything else.

 

Your observations are valid our pre-conditioned existence appears to

drift in variant directions. The wisdom is to integrate the

fragmented presence in all the domains of our existence " be it

actions, or

thoughts, or desires " concurrently. No multiple paths are prescribed

in Gita to

my understanding. ONE HAS TO CLEANSE ONESELF IN ALL RESPECTS, IN ALL

THE

EIGHTEEN DOMAINS IDENTIFIED

IN GITA! My understanding is to practice The Yoga in its

completeness rather

than in its fragment that appeals to me. Starting point is the same "

Vishada and

ending point is the same " Moksha Sanyasa. Every yoga in between is

a building

block to complete this puzzle for me. NONE OF THEM HAVE ANY

INDEPENDENT

EXISTENCE AS SUCH. ALL THE EIGHTEEN SERVE THE SINGLE PURPOSE " TO BE

THAT.

 

Personally, I do not to the popular acceptance that each

yoga or path can have their own credits. They have credits only in

unison with the rest in my appreciation. Any yoga practiced rightly

automatically incorporates the rest - from this perspective, each is

COMPLETE in itself as well. As far as The Truth at the pedestal of

one's presence, anything is fine and everything is fine because

anything and everything floods toward THAT.

 

If you have any specific question/objection to this, pl. feel free

express the same. I will attempt to address as I can.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Brother Naga Narayana says the question is redundant, it is not.

Journeyman faces the problem which Sadhana to do to reach the goal.

once you reach the goal then and then only QUESTION becomes

redundant. here are some more thoughts for your consideration and

comments:

 

IS THERE ONLY ONE RIGHT

 

WAY TO GOD?

 

Lord Krishna has been talking about both manifest and unmanifest

aspects of God in the previous chapters. Arjun's question has been

answered in great detail in this chapter, but people still argue

that one method of worship or certain religious practices are better

than others. Such persons only understand half the truth. In our

opinion, it is quite clear that the method of worship depends on the

nature of the individual. The person or the person's guru should

find out which path will be most suitable for the individual,

depending on the person's temperament. To force his or her own

method of worship on people is the greatest disservice a guru can do

to disciples. The important thing is to develop faith in and love of

God. God

has the power to manifest before a devotee in any form, regardless

of the

devotee's chosen form of worship.

 

What has worked for one may not work for all. There was no need for

the Lord to

discuss different paths of yoga if there was one path for all. If

the chosen

path of spiritual discipline does not give one peace or God-

realization, then it

must be understood that one is not practicing correctly or the path

is not right

for the individual.

 

Hari Om Roy

 

-------------------------------

 

Sir,

To represent the things in scientific ways,I like to say that'

It is now a fact that chemical rexs can create electric egergy and

eectric flow is result of oxidation,i.e. electron formation.In human

body also this simple system leads to energy and life.So,smadhi

means actually to control a reaction or control the generation of

electrons.Naturally it can lead to more life but of courst,provided

the chemical rex also is controlled,but not stopped.So,by limiting

intake and smadhi can increase life,but also decreases the current

to work.So,gita is now a base for science facts.

Regards,

sayal123

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

No ! Samadhi is certainly not a necessary condition for Moksha-

the " mineness " - an exclusive " mineness " with Paramatma is however a

desirable requirement for liberation. In fact, disconnection with

inert is essential condition for Liberation- whether that comes

through Karma Yoga or Jnana Yoga. For Bhakti Yoga , Mineness with

Paramatma is essential.

 

There is one more type of Samadhi- called " Sahaj Samadhi " . That is

necessary end result of liberation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

This a question filled with contradictions and inconsistencies.

 

Neither Samadhi is a condition nor Moksha a target.

 

State where no conditions can raise from, where no conditions can

survive and where all the conditions are completely obliterated is

Samadhi.

 

State where no targets can emerge from, where no targets can persist

and where all the targets are completely annihilated is Moksha.

 

They are synanmous to each other where there cannot be any necessity

or requirement as such.

 

Therefore, this question is redundant in itself for me.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

Bhagavan has said to Arjuna, " When I (GOD) am in front why you want

to know about all this knowledge " . Samadhi levels, different types

of yogas, Etc is not necessary when Bhagavan comes to you. Buddhi +

yoga = Buddhi yoga. So there is prefix Buddhi to yoga. So also in

other cases. But for Bakthi (worship, devotion, love of God) there

is no prefix. Why? Because Bakthi is crown of all spiritual

practices. Bakthi is unconditional constant and No change in any

condition in love towards GOD. Besides what Bakthi makes? All yogas

and samadhi levels in the world put together is practice to silence

the mind from totally to remove Vasanas. This type of practices by

one` s effort. So Bhagavan just remains witness to see how far you

can succeed. Bhagavan has clearly said in Geetha that by Yoga or by

Tapas (austerities) one can reach HIM after serveral births.

Bhagavan in same Geetha has also clearly said that HE can liberate a

person in one single (same Jalma) by HIS Sankalpa (resolve, vow).

Does it not seem contradictory? NO. First instance you are making

Sankalpa (will, resolve, intentions) to reach HIM. Whereas in second

instance Bagavan is making HIS sankalpa (resolve) to liberate you.

Simple Example: 1) Finite is trying to reach infinite. (2) Infinite

is trying to pull finite. Which will succeed? In prakuthi also Mass

can attract molecule. Bagavan has said that HE takes care of HIS

bhakta (devotees), if bhakta fails in his attempt. Bagavan has

given a designation as " Yoga Brasta " to such soul failed in bakthi

(worship and devotion).

In Sri Ranga Mahatyiyam script, mother Lakshmi points out to a

bhakta saying that he is doing mistakes. Bhagavan immediately says

to mother Lakshmi, " Here after YOU take care of YOUR baktha and I

(Bagavan) will take care of MY baktha " . One can see from scripts

that yogis are subjected to abuse and torcher. Where as Bakthas are

immediately rescued by Bagavan. When Bagavan has said in simple

terms, " Surrender to ME " , means love (Bhakti) why ponder over many

things.

Lastly the cat story of doing certain practices is Gift from Bagavan

to animals alone called Instinct. We humans have No instinct and the

gift of intellect from God is unused.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

------------------------

In our religion, the first 25 years are spent in learning, next 25

in married life, next 25 in religious activities with one's spouse

and the last 25 in sanyas. This is the time when one is free from

worldly duties and can totally concentrate(dhyan) or meditate and

become one with the Self and attain Nirvikalp samadhi and moksha or

liberation from the endless cycle of birth and death. There are

other paths like Karm yog and Gyan yog also but these take time.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

--------------------------

 

dear sadaks,

Nirvikalpa samadhi etc are difficult tasks which are performed by

yogis. Vasanas cannot go that easily. But short cut is Bakthi Marg.

In this Marg Bagavan comes to you rather than you searching HIM.

Examples: Bagavan came to numerous saints, played with them, lived

with them, protected them Baktha Gora, Purander Doss, Tukaram,

Pundalikan, Sakubai, Meera bai etc etc. These saints underwent

sufferings (which we feel) but they hardly knew what was happening.

Bakthi is surrender. Easy and simple way. Here your effort is Zero.

In samadhi level your effort is maximum.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

 

Hari Om.

 

I saw a kitten in my friend's house today.

It had lost its mother soon after it was born.

It never knew that it was a kitten and left alone.

without any observation or company of a cat, it does exactly

what a cat does.

To pass stool it dug a pit and pushed the mud back after passing

stool.

Now tell me who taught it to behave like a cat?

Its the impression of the brain that was formed when it was in its

mother's womb.

The same way all of act according to the impressions that are in our

brain from the day we entered our mother's womb.

This way we carry the good and bad deeds of previous birth

when we enter our mother's womb.

The karma cycle starts here for this birth.

For the good deeds we get comfort and for the bad deeds we

getdiscomfort

and misery.

MOKSHA IS THE PROCESS BY WHICH WE RELIEVE URSELVES

 

FROM THIS CYCLE OF KARMA.

 

This can be attained only by doing Sadhana.

Ths Sadhana takes us to SAMADHI.

Samadhi is the state where our soul light removes our karma.

This is the TRUTH OF GEETHA TOLD BY KRUSHNA IN KAPILA CHARITHRAM.

THis is known as Shankya Yoga in GEETHA.

with regards,

 

Usha sridhar

----------------------------

 

Yogiraj Madhvacarya's Response (Posted by HariOm Roy for the benefit

of the group)

 

It is a fact that unless one reaches into the causal body and works

at it on the causal plane, one cannot completely eradicate the

vasanas. Gita has given the path of buddhi yoga in chapter two,

especially in the last portion of chapter two as the solution and

instead of nirvikalpa, we get the term brahmanirvanam.

 

Gita enunciated two paths as karma yoga and jnana yoga. The path of

jnana yoga has within it the potential to attain the eradications of

the vasanas, but in my opinion the path of karma yoga will not

remove the vasanas but will remove most of the inconvenient or

undesirable vasanas.

 

If someone does not see that the path of jnana yoga and particularly

the buddhi yoga techniques discussed by Sri Krishna as containing

the solution of the problem of the vasanas, it means that the person

does not understand the Sanskrit terms and is giving those terms

insufficient meanings.

 

But in that case if one goes to the Uddhava Gita, one will get a

more in-depth and detailed instruction for that jnana yoga and then

one's doubts about Gita should be removed.

 

Buddhi yoga as given in Bhagavad Gita is a practice which was taught

by Sri Krishna to both the jnana yogis and the karma yogis. Karma

yogis students like Arjuna got that skill through the practice of

elementary meditation yoga and with that psychological proficiency,

they applied this to their life in the cultural world, as

politicians, state officials and state warriors. The proficiency of

this for a karma yogi shows by his detachment when punishing and

impartiality when dealing with citizens. Thus Krishna requested

Arjuna to exhibit the buddhi yoga proficient on the battlefield of

Kurukshetra, just as Janak and other legendary kings did in the

Vedic history.

 

Basically speaking the meditative yoga practice of those karma yogis

ended with this buddhi yoga and its result in their life was

highlighted by their detachment and impartially.

 

First we begin by defining yoga and to do so we must go to

Patanjali. He gave us an eight (8) part system which become known

also as Ashtanga yoga.

 

Thus bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga. Buddhi yoga is buddhi+yoga. Jnana

yoga is jnana+yoga. Atma yoga is atma+ yoga and so on. In this way

we will be clear when we use these terms. Now if we agree that

bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga, then what is bhakti? The answer is

that bhakti is bhakti. The next question is : Can someone reach

perfection by bhakti alone.. And the answer is that scriptures give

us examples of persons who did just that, persons like the gopis.

 

Then there is another question, why do yoga and then apply it to

bhakti if one can reach perfection by bhakti alone. The answer is

obvious, that it would be foolish to do yoga and apply bhakti if you

can reach perfection by bhakti alone. Therefore we accept that only

those who will fail at bhakti by itself should do yoga and then do

bhakti.

 

But then there is another question as to why even bother with yoga .

The answer to that is given by Sri Krishna when he defined the

purpose of yoga as atmavishuddha in Chapter 6 verse 12.

 

Therefore if one finds that his or her bhakti is not getting

perfection, that person may do yoga for purification of the psyche

(atma), the psychological energies. Then when yoga is successful in

that purpose, he or she can apply bhakti and get the desired success.

 

Buddhi yoga? What is that?

 

That is the application of yoga practice to curbing and purifying

the intellect, the buddhi. It has to do with that one aspect only,

the buddhi. It concerns nothing else. It is the process of curbing

the buddhi by meditational techniques.

 

The mastership of the 5th pratyahar stage of yoga and the beginning

practice of the 6th dharana stage concerns buddhi yoga, the curbing

and subjugation of the buddhi organ in the subtle body.

 

The difficulty with implementing the removal of the vasanas, has to

do with the deficiency of the human being. This deficiency comes

from the natural way which is to focus into the gross plane of

existence. Due to that we have no accurate knowledge or experience

of the subtle existence. And to make matters worse, the causal plane

is even more abstract than the subtle level.

 

How many of us are willing to take up a sadhana which would cause an

increase in subtle perception? How many of us would make that our

top priority to do whatever would be necessary to shut down most of

our physical interest and to put our attention over to the subtle

side.

 

I feel this is our impediment.

 

The causal level, which has within it the seed energies (bija) of

the vasanas, cannot be reached until we develop very subtle

perception. How can you affect something which you can neither see

nor feel. So first we have to get subtle vision then super subtle

vision then we can tackle the root energies of the vasanas which

influence and dominate us on this level.

 

From this physical plane we cannot eradicate the vasanas because

their supportive and motivational roots are coming from the causal

level. We can however limited their main manifestation if we apply

strong moral principles in an attempt to restrict vices and promote

a righteous lifestyle (dharma).

 

Over time of practicing dharma, one develops some resistance to some

of the very gross and vulgar vasanas. From this one develops a

strength to challenge the motivational forces, and then gradually

one develops introspection and moves into higher yoga practice. Thus

karma yoga serves as a stepping stone to jnana yoga which is the

practice for directly challenging the vasanas first in the subtle

body and then at their rooting on the causal plane.

 

One easy way to understand the difference between nirvikalpa and

savikalpa samadhi is through the example of one electric circuit

which has only a light bulb and another circuit which has a light

bulb and a meter.

 

The electric supply or generator would serve as representing God or

representing the supreme brahman, while the bulb and its little

circuit presents the jiva or yogi. When we plug the circuit into the

electric supply, the light glows, because it is connected to that

power..

 

In the second example there is a meter attached to the bulb ,

whereby when the circuit is plugged in, the bulb glows but the meter

also registers a certain quality of current.

 

In the first example the bulb gets the full current and is fully

charged with the supreme power, while in the second example only

some of the current is used by the bulb since the meter which

measures the current, absorbs some of the electric force.

 

Thus in the second example the yogi's mind which measures and

analyzes the power which flows from the Supreme, causes a reduction

in his contact with the Supreme power.

 

The advantage of the first example is that the yogi gets to feel the

full supreme power, while in the second example the yogi cannot

experience the full power but is better able to describe his

experience because he was able to measure the intensity of the

supreme power/

 

In the first example, after the samadhi the yogi might say, " I

experience it but there is no way that I can describe it to you. It

was fully subjective. It was not objective. It was like: I was it

and it was me. "

 

In the second case the yogi might say, " I measured it as I

experienced it. I will describe it to you. I was objective to it.

 

Madhavacharya (Michael Beloved)

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Please correct the misconcept that Holy Gita is insufficient by

reading and assimilating verse 66 of chapter 18. What is Moksh? What

is Mukti? What is Nirvan? What is Realization of Self? All these are

beyond body mind mechanism whereas samadhi of any type or kind is

within it and ends with vyutthaan.

please be specific as to how and where Gita is found insufficient.

Thanks and Regards,

Sarvottam

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Just a quick observation on Divakaranji's post.

Sure, it is a great worship when whatever we do as Krishnaarpanam.

Such sustained worshiping attitude can lead one to Moksha because

the highest one can offer(arpana to Krishna) is oneself-ego in total

surrender!

But Moksha or Mukti is not a matter of individual perception, rather

freedom from Individuality itself! Moksha is when " individual " is

seen as illusion, and all his/her perceptions including " I am an

individual with this body-mind " dissolves into THAT which IS! It is

the only Reality/Atman/Brahman/God and cannot be perceived(by mind)

because IT perceives everything, even mind-body-world.

Namaskar.............

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

My dear Sadhak Gurujan,

When whatever we do is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itself

constitutes worship. Whether Moksha or Mukti is thus achieved is a

matter of individual perception.

 

Subbanarasu Divakaran

 

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In my seeing, it is the most important that one realizes what one

truly IS!, not as one thinks or believes one is! Samadhi as I

understand it, is a state which comes and goes, so " we " cannot be

such a state. We are THAT whatever THAT may be, in which such states

come and go, but we don't ever come or go as Consciousness!

Upon investigation we may discover that such state as savikalpa

samadhi arises in our Consciousness (which is also our Beingness) in

meditation while focusing on God or breath etc., and when samadhi

state leaves us it goes back to same Consciousness just as wave

arising and vanishing back to ocean(water really). We know " we " are

Ocean of Consciousness even when waves arise or vanish.

 

Nirvikalpa samadhi is when Consciousness is devoid of objects

experienced only as thoughts in mind and sensations/feelings in

body. In otherword, Consciousness being Conscious of ITSELF,

liberating from limitations of objects.

Due to desires, vaasanas, attachments etc one is constantly occupied

by objects of perceptions and/or feelings such as anger, jealousy,

envy etc, samadhi state is not manifest as Consciousness is

identified with such objects.

 

When understanding takes place through inquiy, contemplations,

meditation(if one has inclination to path of Gyan), then one

realizes one is not body-mind based separate person, and samadhi

happens naturally. When samadhi state happens naturally regardless

of presence ot abscence of objects as perceptions, conceptions,

arising in Consciousness, Consciousness is liberated and a state of

Sahaj samadhi happens. (Many saints such as Ramana Maharshi,

Ramkrishna Paramhansa were in such a state while being engaged in

activities, as I know).

 

It is apperception meaning Consciousness being conscious of Itself

(Sat-Chit-Ananda swarupa) rather than objects, in all situations.

(Like wave now knows it is really water even as it appears to be

wave from the mind's perspective).

Such realization is of primary importance, and samadhi state may be

an indication only.

 

It is equally possible to realize this by total Devotion, or being

engaged in selfless Karma within guidelines of Dharma. In such

pursuits Grace is bestowed upon Sadhakas by Bhgwaan. Bliss, Love,

Peace, Harmony, Intelligence, Beauty manifest in life of such a

sadhaka which is the same experience of oneness as narrated by

realized ones or Bhagwaan's devotees!

To summarize, it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neither

is the only path to liberation! Realization through spiritual

sadhana with predominence of Self-inquiry, Devotion, or Karma-Yoga

can lead to ultimate Grace! One knows undoubtedly ONE is

Consciousness(Chit), which is Impersonal Being(sat), and therefore

is at the same time Fullness-Bliss(Anada)!

 

Namaskar.....

 

Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

 

Moksha need not neccesarily by Yoga or become a brahma gnani to

released from cycle of life, in Krishna clearly says easiest way to

attain nirvana is thru true love towards him, thru gnana and yoga

the yogi or upasaka should fix a time to leave this itself requires

lot of knowledge and takes many births.

 

So when easily gnana moksha is available why to go for toughest

thing.

 

But a good food contains all items Dhyana is neccessary along with

Bhakthi to attain the goal.

 

But any one who has read the Gita easily can understand and manage

both.

 

MANY HAVE DOUBTS WHEN KRIHNA SAYS BHAKTHI TAKES U TO MOKSHA THE EASY

WAY AND ALSO MENTIONS TO CONCENTRATE ON HIM(dhyana) AND ALSO MENTIONS

TO KARMA YOGA.

 

WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND WE SHOULD PLAY MUTIPLE MARGAS (path) TO ATTAIN

MOKSHA (salvation).

 

PLEASE READ GITA BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION ASK URSELF ASK LORD INSIDE

YOU.

 

Shapur Shiva

-------------------------------

 

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Shree Hari

Ram Ram

We are clearing up pending queue this week due to significant back

log. You will receive few extra emails next couple of days. Only

reply if essential point not covered by other sadhaks

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

--------------------------------

HARIOM,

 

Proponents of Dhyana Yoga (Yoga of Meditation)say one must attain

Nivikalp samadhi (a very difficult task for most people) to

completely eradicate the VASANAS (desires, passions, impressions

remaining in the mind) from the causal body. Thus they express that

any one of the other paths of the Holy Gita is not a sufficient

condition for mukti (liberation, benediction, release from rebirth

in the world, emancipation). Please remove my doubts completely and

in detail.

 

Hari Om Roy

----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

There are many opinions and beliefs surrounding Samadhi, various

types of it and is or is not necessary for Mukti.

I want to share simple approach to understand it based on experience

we all have.

1) When I-me sense, so dominating throughout the life, is lost in an

object because that object is so attractive, such as watching an

interesting movie, playing a game, witnessing a beautiful sunset or

sunrise, chanting mantra, or meditating, it is possible that

consciousness of " me " is temporarily forgotten/lost. At the time

there is only witnessing, not " me " witnessing objects, and hence

there is joy beyond mind and senses, however, temporary it may be.

I call this Savikalpa samadhi, but sense of " me " returns after the

state is over.

2) When there are no perceived objects, attractive or otherwise in

consciousness, consciousness turns inward to itself, so to speak,

being conscious of itself and nothing else, sense of " me " has gone

for some time. There is peace/bliss.

I call this Nirvikalpa Samadhi, but sense of " me " though weaker than

before, returns.

3) When Consciousness remains conscious of itself even when

perceived objects are present or absent and cannot take

Consciousness away from Itself, so to speak, there is only Non-dual

Existence experientially present. All objects or their absence are

seen as Consciousness only. All is thus Vasudev sarvam.

I call this Sahaj samadhi, our realized nature! This is really Mukti

itself, if it is truly one's experience, and not self-deception.

If samadhi is a state, then it just comes and goes, and hence is not

what we are!

One can label any ways one likes, but it is the experiential

realization of Being always free of all identifications, and being

Undivided Wholeness, Blissfulness, That is Mukti or liberation. It

is the Freedom from sense of " me " and therefore " others " . The moment

sense of " me " arises, it separates us, our beingness-consciousness

into many, and thus each of such apparant " many " feels lack,

incompleteness within him/her and desire to fulfil, to become Whole

through objects giving rise to suffering. Some Objects are taken to

give us happiness temporarily, which fools us from looking within

and realizing " we " are and always will be Free!

Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt

------------------------------

Namaskar to All,

 

Reading the life of Saints, we will find that Siddhis (miracles) are

presented from the Birth.

Why are they born again ? Very obvious: They have developed

themselves for these siddhis through different Yog. Weren't they

selfish ? We see in the Next life, they Serve (Seva) and reach

Moksha (salvation).

Bhakti Yog has some of it, but Raj Yog combines all.

--

Regards

 

Swapan PURKAYASTHA

--------------------------------

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

SUMMARY TO DATE - SADHAK RESONSES-

 

Liberation (Freedom) is releasing that which we have grabbed hold off

Liberation is very easy as freedom is the true nature of SELF

So to become free, mukta, no need for any samadhi.

Samadhi is a state of the kaaran sharir that is connected to nature.

Disconnection with inert is essential condition for Liberation-

Mineness with Paramatma is essential. " Sahaj Samadhi " is

necessary end result of liberation. What is Mukti? Moksha? Nirvan?

Self Realization? All are beyond body mind mechanism whereas samadhi

of any type or kind is within it and ends with vyutthaan (rising).

Eternal attachment with God treating samadhi, siddhis as tucha

(small, insignificant) is true liberation or moksha.

Bhagavan says - What you want to know when I am in front of you.

In Dyana yoga, Sahaja Yoga etc. easy to slip; can take several births

By becoming God's, He personally takes responsibility for moksha

Any yoga practiced rightly automatically incorporates the rest. Each

is COMPLETE in itself as well. Anything and everything floods toward

THAT. Method of worship depends on the nature of the individual.

important thing is to develop faith in and love of God. God has the

power to manifest before a devotee in any form, regardless of the

devotee's chosen form of worship. Samadhi = to control a reaction

or control a generation of electrons. gita is now a base for science

facts. Neither Samadhi is a condition nor Moksha a target. State

where no targets can emerge from, where no targets can persist and

where all the targets are completely annihilated is Moksha.

Selfless service key for moksha.

Samadhi or Mukti is the natural state, ever present.

Bhagavan said , " When I (GOD) am in front why you want to know about

all this knowledge " i.e. Samadhi levels, different types of yogas,

etc. is not necessary when Bhagavan comes to you. Bakthi is crown of

all spiritual practices. " Surrender to ME " , means love (Bhakti).

Nirvikalpa samadhi etc are difficult. Short cut is Bakthi Marg.

Moksha is the process by which we relieve ourselves from the cycle

of karma. This is done through sadhana - Sankhya Yoga.

Moksha is when " individual " with this body-mind " dissolves into THAT

which IS! Reality/Atman/Brahman/God and cannot be perceived(by mind)

because IT perceives everything, even mind-body-world. whatever we

do is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itself constitutes worship.

Moksha or Mukti is a matter of individual perception

Krishna says - easiest way to attain nirvana is thru true love

towards Him. Even Samadhi state comes and goes. We (Self) is beyond

that. it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neither

is it the only path to liberation!

Experiential realization of Being always free of all

identifications, and being Undivided Wholeness, Blissfulness, That

is Mukti or liberation. It is the Freedom from sense of " me " and

therefore " others " .

 

From Gita Talk Moderators

-----------------------------

 

pRIY SADHAK

samadhi is state if kaaran sharir which is again connected to nature.

Understanding self is ultimate

pl follow it

thanx

raja gurdasani

 

----------------------

RAM RAM

 

sajjan shri,

 

Swamiramsukhdasji in his " Sadhak-Sanjeevani " (Shreemadhbhagvadgita)

says that, stages like samadhi or siddhi is also material. These

stages can get destroyed by senses even if one attains them.

So " Sahaj yoga " is recommended ie in God or Ram or Shri Krishna

consciousness to practice karmas . For moksha if samadhi gets khandit

(broken) with time or senses after samadhis attainment , one then

realises futility of such conditions (samadhi siddhi) because they

are material conditions.

 

Eternal attachement with god treating samadhi, siddhis as tucha

(small, insignificant) is true liberation or moksha, because samadhi

siddhi dont liberate even mukti may not be possible by samadhi

siddhi what to tell of moksha.

 

Just living in god told way of bhavatgita is enough. You will get

moksha. And to get mokhsa complete surrendering to god Krishnaji is

enough without desiring even moksha mukti, any greed or lust, is a

necessary. THe spirit of Meerabai ie " Mera to girdhar Gopal Doosaro

na koi " . By " Koi " is not accepting any dependence on anything

material is spirit of surrenderring and in that stage you will get

ultimate peace or Moksha.

 

Yours truly,

Kalrav Pande

-------------------------

Dear Sadaks and eminent Sanskrit scholars kindly give your comments

with explanation very briefly for the below;

VADHANTHU SASTRANI,

YAJANTHU DEVANI,

KURVANTHU KARMANI,

BAJANTHU DEVATHAYAHA,

ATHUMA AAIKIYA BOTHENA,

VANAHI MUKTHI----NHASIDHYATE,

BHRAMA SATANTRA REPINE.

 

The above meaning co relates to Bagavan in Geetha saying to

Arjuna, " What you want to know when I (Bagavan) is in front of you.

Similarly in Geetha Bagavan says in one instance " Moodhaha "

(Ignorant people). Again this also relates to Bikshu Geetha Bagavan

delivered.

Crisp answer will make a reader understand better.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

---------------------------

 

Dear Hariji,

 

Nirvikalp or Savikalp are two different images captured in one's

mind - pl. note that both are based on the vikalp, a mental choice.

The Samadhi or mukti where such images are not needed on one hand

and cannot stay on the other hand is ever existent. For the sake of

conversational convenience, we often refer this state as Nirvikalp.

We should be cognizant that even the " nirvikalpatva " as perceived by

mind looses its presence just like the " savikalpatva " in such

natural presence.

 

As I see, Samadhi or Mukti is ever-present every-where. Samadhi or

Mukti is the natural state of all and therefore cannot be

characterized in any manner. Due to our preceptional ignorance and

existential inertia fuelled perptually by experiential desire-fear

cluster, we perpetually imagine to be not in THAT! One who realizes

has just cleared this opaqueness within ... you can call such

realization " Nirvikalpa " or " Nirvana " or " Sthitapragnyaa " or

Equanimity etc., no problem as far as they retain no significance in

themselves, as far as they do not become a concept (vikalpa) in

one's mind.

 

Once a desciple approaches Buddha to say he attained " emptyness " in

his mind. Buddha slaps him hard ... " That emptyness is filling your

mind! Emoty that as well!! " The mind has this terrible tendency to

make a vikalpa of everything ... even the nirvikalpatva or samadhi

or mukti ... My caution is toward that tendency ... not otherwise.

However you call or address THAT, THAT remains what IT IS.

 

Whether Mukti is one time or not is self-evident from the above. IT

never occurs since IT is ever present. IT can not be handled like

anything else perceived e.g. having it once, twice, thrice, etc. In

fact, one can never " have " THAT ... but one can always " be " THAT ...

rather everything " is " always THAT. I would say every one receives

the warmth from THAT every moment for the sheer existence. Most

have no clue of that; few imagine that; very few attain that

knowledgibly; very very few remain THERE as such ... the oftenness

is applicable to our ignorance and inertia - how often we break the

opaqueness of our ignorance and inertia is countable; NOT THAT!

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

What is Moksha and what is Bandhan ?

 

A story(this is how a monkey is caught)-

There are some chickpeas in a container. The mouth of the container

is very narrow. A monkey comes, sees the peas, put its hand in the

container and grab peas in his fist. Now it wants to take its hand

out from the container, but it cannot. Why ? so obvious. What it

need to do to get its hand out ? so obvious, just open the fist and

let the peas go. But no,no matter how hard he tries, he cannot take

his hand out.

Similarly we have grabbed this sansar/jagat. as soon as we

disconnect our selves with this sansar, we are free, Mukta.

Swamiji says - mukti sahaj hai(Liberation is easy). Bandhan mana hua

hai(Bondage is adopted). Because freedom is the true nature of SELF.

So to become free, mukta, no need for any samadhi. Swamiji often

says a highly evolved sadhak who has attained many siddhis may have

great experiences, he may wander different planes but its not

necessary that he will attain moksha.

 

with Love,

a Sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

------------------------------

YES, Brother Naga Narayana, you said it so nicely:

" Any yoga practiced rightly

automatically incorporates the rest - from this perspective, each is

COMPLETE in itself as well. "

 

here is another subset of the original question: ALL SADHANAS MUST

CULMINATE IN NIRVIKALP SAMADHI BEFORE MUKTI IS POSSIBLE ? in other

words, if one has not attained nirvikalp state, then one has a long

way to go? then another Question arises: is this samadhi a one time

deal or one has to be always or most of the time in that state?

 

Hari Om Roy

 

------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadaks,

 

Dyana yoga, Sahaja Yoga etc are same yoga prefixing Dyana

(meditation) to yoga. This is like God over Sahastra Nama, but

eventually GOD is one. Gowtham Rishi, Vasista, Viswamitra and so

many failed in yoga. In yoga the effort to be put is totally

cleansing the mind through out one` s life. Persons who succeeded

sometime fails, like the above stated Rishis at one part in their

lives. That is why Bagavan in Geetha says by Yoga one to reach HIM

may take several births. But becoming God's, developing a loving

relationship with Him, even while being in family, amidst society

and the world, living dharmic way as per the sastras, God

personally takes responsibility for such devotees and makes certain

that there is NO slippage from getting liberated.

 

Examples are many but few are being shared here:

Baktha Gora, pot maker accidentally stamped his son while meditating

on Panduranga. His wife in Anger said not to touch her. He remained

so for years. His wife married her sister to have issue to them.

But on wedding day the father in law promised to Gora to treat his

2cd daughter as he would treat his 1st wife. Gora said to his 2cd

wife on first night, that her elder sister was aloof from him and

so she also to remain aloof as promised by his father in law.

Having 2 wives Gora was singing and dancing in Bakthi without least

thought of senses. Wives one night touched hands of Gora who slain

ed his hands to keep up promise. God Panduranga came down as a

servant Rangan and worked in his house. Same was with Neelakanda

Nayanar Shiva Baktha where Bagavan Shiva came down to him. Bagavan

even touched and washed the feet of Kuchela for his love. Bagavan

even did shaving to King Badhusha on behalf of his Baktha. Bagavan

ran to save elephant Gajendra. What Prahalad did- Nava Rasa Bakthi

and Bagavan was always with him. For a cobbler (whose house even to

day exits) in Panderpur Bagavan stitched slipper for business. For a

housewife Sakubai, Bagavan took the form of Sankubai to fullfil her

desire to go to Panderpur and Bagavan was acting as Sakubai in her

house as servant. Sakubai dies in the temple when she is overwhelmed

seeing Moorthy Panduranga in the temple. She was cremated. But

Bagavan Shiva raises her to life from ashes. One can visit her house

in Gopalpur even today. A lady by name Poogodhai was raised to life

from Hasti (Ashes of Poogodhai) right in presence of public in a

temple Kabaleesvar- Mylapore in Chennai by a saint Thiru Gyna

Sambather.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

Respected Hari Om Roy,

 

Appreciate your remarks. Following is what revolves around in me at

this point

 

Dhyana " The intellect established in focus on an object for

appreciation Yoga "

Absolute Unison

Dhyana Yoga " Appreciation (of anything) in Absolute Unison

 

Dhyana yoga is a self-sufficient phrase as Bhagavan Vyaasa puts it

forward in the first place.

 

Being pulled apart from two polarities in our existence " individual

and universe

" we qualify this unique concept further:

 

Aatma Dhyana Yoga " Self Appreciation Brahma Dhyana Yoga " Universal

Appreciation

 

The inertially ignorant mind cannot fathom anything but an object

(Vishaya) and its image in its senses (Indriyas) and hence gravitates

all suggestions to the same Vishayendriya cluster (sensorial images

of object)

and hence looses the Absolute Unison intended in the first

place. Often, it is diluted to the perceived duo " vishaya and

indriya.

 

Vishaya Dhyana Yoga: Absolute appreciation of any object is enough.

Even " the letter, the pronunciation, the sound, the shape, the

syllable, its medium, its source, its destiny, its constitution, its

composites, etc. " is enough. If it is too simple … Aum … Omkara

Dhyana. Vishaya Dhyana in its purity tends toward Brahma Dhyana.

 

Indriya Dhyana Yoga: Absolute appreciation of any sense is also

sensible enough. Just an utterance is enough to pace toward the

absolute through the same sensory signal in truthful pursuit as

Krishna says very often in Gita - Indriyaaneendriyaartheshu. The

same Omkara helps to traverse inward as well. Indriya Dhyana in its

purity tends toward Aatma Dhyana.

 

The intended Dhyana Yoga becomes Dhyana Roga as the partial, lopsided

and wishful appreciation of oneself (subject) as well as the objects

(and their images in terms of actions, thoughts and desires) around

increases. Neither the subject (Aatman) nor the object (Brahman) is

appreciated in Absolute Unison. The subject is appreciated in terms

of

objectional images and the objects are appreciated in terms of

subjective desires, thoughts and actions. As such, there is nothing

wrong in either vishaya or in indriya … but, the corruption is in

our

perception of the same.

 

On the other hand, dwelling in three apparent domains in three

inherent forms, we cannot but gravitate to one of the three clusters

closest to our nature " physical, perceptional and experiential worlds

in terms of actions, thoughts and desires. Accordingly the same

Dhyana Yoga is

recommend with alternative adjectives from different schools of

thoughts:

 

Aatma Dhyana Yoga " Experiential Appreciation in the domain of desires

(aatma-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Gowdapada, Shankara, Ramana,

…)

Daiva Dhyana Yoga " Perceptional Appreciation in the domain of

thoughts (daiva-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Vallabha, Ramanuja,

Madhva)

Bhuta Dhyana Yoga " Existential Appreciation in the domain of actions

(bhouta-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Chaarvaaka, and most of us)

 

When the focus is turned to a limited identity, practical difficulty

of loosing the original intent is faced. We add another adjective to

emphasize on the basis for each rather than the tip of the ice berg

in each

domain:

 

Aadhyaatma Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Experiential Appreciation

Adhidaiva Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Perceptional Appreciation

Adhibhuta Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Existential Appreciation

 

The above three are also often referenced as Bhakti Yoga, Gnyaana

Yoga, and Karma Yoga with variant overlaps on each other.

 

Details are added perpetually distinctions are made that are lost in

the heap of overlapping attributes we loose the understanding

that the real appreciation of anything is in its simplicity and not

in

complexity nothing was required and nothing is required the

helpless mind needs some support as soon as it is given a choice, it

floods with its own images for its own sustenance.

As Ramana puts it, the mind flies around chasing the smoke and

fragrances dispersed from a sandle stick Dhyana is to push it to the

source of all smoke and fragrance around " the tip of the sandle

stick it runs away we should bring it the focal point that is the

game Dhyana

Yoga! That is Karma Yoga, as well as Gnyaana Yoga as well as Bhakti

Yoga as well

as any other yoga all for ONE and ONLY ONE to be THAT. You can call

it Samadhi

or Mukti or God or anything else.

 

Your observations are valid our pre-conditioned existence appears to

drift in variant directions. The wisdom is to integrate the

fragmented presence in all the domains of our existence " be it

actions, or

thoughts, or desires " concurrently. No multiple paths are prescribed

in Gita to

my understanding. ONE HAS TO CLEANSE ONESELF IN ALL RESPECTS, IN ALL

THE

EIGHTEEN DOMAINS IDENTIFIED

IN GITA! My understanding is to practice The Yoga in its

completeness rather

than in its fragment that appeals to me. Starting point is the same "

Vishada and

ending point is the same " Moksha Sanyasa. Every yoga in between is

a building

block to complete this puzzle for me. NONE OF THEM HAVE ANY

INDEPENDENT

EXISTENCE AS SUCH. ALL THE EIGHTEEN SERVE THE SINGLE PURPOSE " TO BE

THAT.

 

Personally, I do not to the popular acceptance that each

yoga or path can have their own credits. They have credits only in

unison with the rest in my appreciation. Any yoga practiced rightly

automatically incorporates the rest - from this perspective, each is

COMPLETE in itself as well. As far as The Truth at the pedestal of

one's presence, anything is fine and everything is fine because

anything and everything floods toward THAT.

 

If you have any specific question/objection to this, pl. feel free

express the same. I will attempt to address as I can.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Brother Naga Narayana says the question is redundant, it is not.

Journeyman faces the problem which Sadhana to do to reach the goal.

once you reach the goal then and then only QUESTION becomes

redundant. here are some more thoughts for your consideration and

comments:

 

IS THERE ONLY ONE RIGHT

 

WAY TO GOD?

 

Lord Krishna has been talking about both manifest and unmanifest

aspects of God in the previous chapters. Arjun's question has been

answered in great detail in this chapter, but people still argue

that one method of worship or certain religious practices are better

than others. Such persons only understand half the truth. In our

opinion, it is quite clear that the method of worship depends on the

nature of the individual. The person or the person's guru should

find out which path will be most suitable for the individual,

depending on the person's temperament. To force his or her own

method of worship on people is the greatest disservice a guru can do

to disciples. The important thing is to develop faith in and love of

God. God

has the power to manifest before a devotee in any form, regardless

of the

devotee's chosen form of worship.

 

What has worked for one may not work for all. There was no need for

the Lord to

discuss different paths of yoga if there was one path for all. If

the chosen

path of spiritual discipline does not give one peace or God-

realization, then it

must be understood that one is not practicing correctly or the path

is not right

for the individual.

 

Hari Om Roy

 

-------------------------------

 

Sir,

To represent the things in scientific ways,I like to say that'

It is now a fact that chemical rexs can create electric egergy and

eectric flow is result of oxidation,i.e. electron formation.In human

body also this simple system leads to energy and life.So,smadhi

means actually to control a reaction or control the generation of

electrons.Naturally it can lead to more life but of courst,provided

the chemical rex also is controlled,but not stopped.So,by limiting

intake and smadhi can increase life,but also decreases the current

to work.So,gita is now a base for science facts.

Regards,

sayal123

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

No ! Samadhi is certainly not a necessary condition for Moksha-

the " mineness " - an exclusive " mineness " with Paramatma is however a

desirable requirement for liberation. In fact, disconnection with

inert is essential condition for Liberation- whether that comes

through Karma Yoga or Jnana Yoga. For Bhakti Yoga , Mineness with

Paramatma is essential.

 

There is one more type of Samadhi- called " Sahaj Samadhi " . That is

necessary end result of liberation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

This a question filled with contradictions and inconsistencies.

 

Neither Samadhi is a condition nor Moksha a target.

 

State where no conditions can raise from, where no conditions can

survive and where all the conditions are completely obliterated is

Samadhi.

 

State where no targets can emerge from, where no targets can persist

and where all the targets are completely annihilated is Moksha.

 

They are synanmous to each other where there cannot be any necessity

or requirement as such.

 

Therefore, this question is redundant in itself for me.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

Bhagavan has said to Arjuna, " When I (GOD) am in front why you want

to know about all this knowledge " . Samadhi levels, different types

of yogas, Etc is not necessary when Bhagavan comes to you. Buddhi +

yoga = Buddhi yoga. So there is prefix Buddhi to yoga. So also in

other cases. But for Bakthi (worship, devotion, love of God) there

is no prefix. Why? Because Bakthi is crown of all spiritual

practices. Bakthi is unconditional constant and No change in any

condition in love towards GOD. Besides what Bakthi makes? All yogas

and samadhi levels in the world put together is practice to silence

the mind from totally to remove Vasanas. This type of practices by

one` s effort. So Bhagavan just remains witness to see how far you

can succeed. Bhagavan has clearly said in Geetha that by Yoga or by

Tapas (austerities) one can reach HIM after serveral births.

Bhagavan in same Geetha has also clearly said that HE can liberate a

person in one single (same Jalma) by HIS Sankalpa (resolve, vow).

Does it not seem contradictory? NO. First instance you are making

Sankalpa (will, resolve, intentions) to reach HIM. Whereas in second

instance Bagavan is making HIS sankalpa (resolve) to liberate you.

Simple Example: 1) Finite is trying to reach infinite. (2) Infinite

is trying to pull finite. Which will succeed? In prakuthi also Mass

can attract molecule. Bagavan has said that HE takes care of HIS

bhakta (devotees), if bhakta fails in his attempt. Bagavan has

given a designation as " Yoga Brasta " to such soul failed in bakthi

(worship and devotion).

In Sri Ranga Mahatyiyam script, mother Lakshmi points out to a

bhakta saying that he is doing mistakes. Bhagavan immediately says

to mother Lakshmi, " Here after YOU take care of YOUR baktha and I

(Bagavan) will take care of MY baktha " . One can see from scripts

that yogis are subjected to abuse and torcher. Where as Bakthas are

immediately rescued by Bagavan. When Bagavan has said in simple

terms, " Surrender to ME " , means love (Bhakti) why ponder over many

things.

Lastly the cat story of doing certain practices is Gift from Bagavan

to animals alone called Instinct. We humans have No instinct and the

gift of intellect from God is unused.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

------------------------

In our religion, the first 25 years are spent in learning, next 25

in married life, next 25 in religious activities with one's spouse

and the last 25 in sanyas. This is the time when one is free from

worldly duties and can totally concentrate(dhyan) or meditate and

become one with the Self and attain Nirvikalp samadhi and moksha or

liberation from the endless cycle of birth and death. There are

other paths like Karm yog and Gyan yog also but these take time.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

--------------------------

 

dear sadaks,

Nirvikalpa samadhi etc are difficult tasks which are performed by

yogis. Vasanas cannot go that easily. But short cut is Bakthi Marg.

In this Marg Bagavan comes to you rather than you searching HIM.

Examples: Bagavan came to numerous saints, played with them, lived

with them, protected them Baktha Gora, Purander Doss, Tukaram,

Pundalikan, Sakubai, Meera bai etc etc. These saints underwent

sufferings (which we feel) but they hardly knew what was happening.

Bakthi is surrender. Easy and simple way. Here your effort is Zero.

In samadhi level your effort is maximum.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

 

Hari Om.

 

I saw a kitten in my friend's house today.

It had lost its mother soon after it was born.

It never knew that it was a kitten and left alone.

without any observation or company of a cat, it does exactly

what a cat does.

To pass stool it dug a pit and pushed the mud back after passing

stool.

Now tell me who taught it to behave like a cat?

Its the impression of the brain that was formed when it was in its

mother's womb.

The same way all of act according to the impressions that are in our

brain from the day we entered our mother's womb.

This way we carry the good and bad deeds of previous birth

when we enter our mother's womb.

The karma cycle starts here for this birth.

For the good deeds we get comfort and for the bad deeds we

getdiscomfort

and misery.

MOKSHA IS THE PROCESS BY WHICH WE RELIEVE URSELVES

 

FROM THIS CYCLE OF KARMA.

 

This can be attained only by doing Sadhana.

Ths Sadhana takes us to SAMADHI.

Samadhi is the state where our soul light removes our karma.

This is the TRUTH OF GEETHA TOLD BY KRUSHNA IN KAPILA CHARITHRAM.

THis is known as Shankya Yoga in GEETHA.

with regards,

 

Usha sridhar

----------------------------

 

Yogiraj Madhvacarya's Response (Posted by HariOm Roy for the benefit

of the group)

 

It is a fact that unless one reaches into the causal body and works

at it on the causal plane, one cannot completely eradicate the

vasanas. Gita has given the path of buddhi yoga in chapter two,

especially in the last portion of chapter two as the solution and

instead of nirvikalpa, we get the term brahmanirvanam.

 

Gita enunciated two paths as karma yoga and jnana yoga. The path of

jnana yoga has within it the potential to attain the eradications of

the vasanas, but in my opinion the path of karma yoga will not

remove the vasanas but will remove most of the inconvenient or

undesirable vasanas.

 

If someone does not see that the path of jnana yoga and particularly

the buddhi yoga techniques discussed by Sri Krishna as containing

the solution of the problem of the vasanas, it means that the person

does not understand the Sanskrit terms and is giving those terms

insufficient meanings.

 

But in that case if one goes to the Uddhava Gita, one will get a

more in-depth and detailed instruction for that jnana yoga and then

one's doubts about Gita should be removed.

 

Buddhi yoga as given in Bhagavad Gita is a practice which was taught

by Sri Krishna to both the jnana yogis and the karma yogis. Karma

yogis students like Arjuna got that skill through the practice of

elementary meditation yoga and with that psychological proficiency,

they applied this to their life in the cultural world, as

politicians, state officials and state warriors. The proficiency of

this for a karma yogi shows by his detachment when punishing and

impartiality when dealing with citizens. Thus Krishna requested

Arjuna to exhibit the buddhi yoga proficient on the battlefield of

Kurukshetra, just as Janak and other legendary kings did in the

Vedic history.

 

Basically speaking the meditative yoga practice of those karma yogis

ended with this buddhi yoga and its result in their life was

highlighted by their detachment and impartially.

 

First we begin by defining yoga and to do so we must go to

Patanjali. He gave us an eight (8) part system which become known

also as Ashtanga yoga.

 

Thus bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga. Buddhi yoga is buddhi+yoga. Jnana

yoga is jnana+yoga. Atma yoga is atma+ yoga and so on. In this way

we will be clear when we use these terms. Now if we agree that

bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga, then what is bhakti? The answer is

that bhakti is bhakti. The next question is : Can someone reach

perfection by bhakti alone.. And the answer is that scriptures give

us examples of persons who did just that, persons like the gopis.

 

Then there is another question, why do yoga and then apply it to

bhakti if one can reach perfection by bhakti alone. The answer is

obvious, that it would be foolish to do yoga and apply bhakti if you

can reach perfection by bhakti alone. Therefore we accept that only

those who will fail at bhakti by itself should do yoga and then do

bhakti.

 

But then there is another question as to why even bother with yoga .

The answer to that is given by Sri Krishna when he defined the

purpose of yoga as atmavishuddha in Chapter 6 verse 12.

 

Therefore if one finds that his or her bhakti is not getting

perfection, that person may do yoga for purification of the psyche

(atma), the psychological energies. Then when yoga is successful in

that purpose, he or she can apply bhakti and get the desired success.

 

Buddhi yoga? What is that?

 

That is the application of yoga practice to curbing and purifying

the intellect, the buddhi. It has to do with that one aspect only,

the buddhi. It concerns nothing else. It is the process of curbing

the buddhi by meditational techniques.

 

The mastership of the 5th pratyahar stage of yoga and the beginning

practice of the 6th dharana stage concerns buddhi yoga, the curbing

and subjugation of the buddhi organ in the subtle body.

 

The difficulty with implementing the removal of the vasanas, has to

do with the deficiency of the human being. This deficiency comes

from the natural way which is to focus into the gross plane of

existence. Due to that we have no accurate knowledge or experience

of the subtle existence. And to make matters worse, the causal plane

is even more abstract than the subtle level.

 

How many of us are willing to take up a sadhana which would cause an

increase in subtle perception? How many of us would make that our

top priority to do whatever would be necessary to shut down most of

our physical interest and to put our attention over to the subtle

side.

 

I feel this is our impediment.

 

The causal level, which has within it the seed energies (bija) of

the vasanas, cannot be reached until we develop very subtle

perception. How can you affect something which you can neither see

nor feel. So first we have to get subtle vision then super subtle

vision then we can tackle the root energies of the vasanas which

influence and dominate us on this level.

 

From this physical plane we cannot eradicate the vasanas because

their supportive and motivational roots are coming from the causal

level. We can however limited their main manifestation if we apply

strong moral principles in an attempt to restrict vices and promote

a righteous lifestyle (dharma).

 

Over time of practicing dharma, one develops some resistance to some

of the very gross and vulgar vasanas. From this one develops a

strength to challenge the motivational forces, and then gradually

one develops introspection and moves into higher yoga practice. Thus

karma yoga serves as a stepping stone to jnana yoga which is the

practice for directly challenging the vasanas first in the subtle

body and then at their rooting on the causal plane.

 

One easy way to understand the difference between nirvikalpa and

savikalpa samadhi is through the example of one electric circuit

which has only a light bulb and another circuit which has a light

bulb and a meter.

 

The electric supply or generator would serve as representing God or

representing the supreme brahman, while the bulb and its little

circuit presents the jiva or yogi. When we plug the circuit into the

electric supply, the light glows, because it is connected to that

power..

 

In the second example there is a meter attached to the bulb ,

whereby when the circuit is plugged in, the bulb glows but the meter

also registers a certain quality of current.

 

In the first example the bulb gets the full current and is fully

charged with the supreme power, while in the second example only

some of the current is used by the bulb since the meter which

measures the current, absorbs some of the electric force.

 

Thus in the second example the yogi's mind which measures and

analyzes the power which flows from the Supreme, causes a reduction

in his contact with the Supreme power.

 

The advantage of the first example is that the yogi gets to feel the

full supreme power, while in the second example the yogi cannot

experience the full power but is better able to describe his

experience because he was able to measure the intensity of the

supreme power/

 

In the first example, after the samadhi the yogi might say, " I

experience it but there is no way that I can describe it to you. It

was fully subjective. It was not objective. It was like: I was it

and it was me. "

 

In the second case the yogi might say, " I measured it as I

experienced it. I will describe it to you. I was objective to it.

 

Madhavacharya (Michael Beloved)

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Please correct the misconcept that Holy Gita is insufficient by

reading and assimilating verse 66 of chapter 18. What is Moksh? What

is Mukti? What is Nirvan? What is Realization of Self? All these are

beyond body mind mechanism whereas samadhi of any type or kind is

within it and ends with vyutthaan.

please be specific as to how and where Gita is found insufficient.

Thanks and Regards,

Sarvottam

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Just a quick observation on Divakaranji's post.

Sure, it is a great worship when whatever we do as Krishnaarpanam.

Such sustained worshiping attitude can lead one to Moksha because

the highest one can offer(arpana to Krishna) is oneself-ego in total

surrender!

But Moksha or Mukti is not a matter of individual perception, rather

freedom from Individuality itself! Moksha is when " individual " is

seen as illusion, and all his/her perceptions including " I am an

individual with this body-mind " dissolves into THAT which IS! It is

the only Reality/Atman/Brahman/God and cannot be perceived(by mind)

because IT perceives everything, even mind-body-world.

Namaskar.............

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

My dear Sadhak Gurujan,

When whatever we do is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itself

constitutes worship. Whether Moksha or Mukti is thus achieved is a

matter of individual perception.

 

Subbanarasu Divakaran

 

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In my seeing, it is the most important that one realizes what one

truly IS!, not as one thinks or believes one is! Samadhi as I

understand it, is a state which comes and goes, so " we " cannot be

such a state. We are THAT whatever THAT may be, in which such states

come and go, but we don't ever come or go as Consciousness!

Upon investigation we may discover that such state as savikalpa

samadhi arises in our Consciousness (which is also our Beingness) in

meditation while focusing on God or breath etc., and when samadhi

state leaves us it goes back to same Consciousness just as wave

arising and vanishing back to ocean(water really). We know " we " are

Ocean of Consciousness even when waves arise or vanish.

 

Nirvikalpa samadhi is when Consciousness is devoid of objects

experienced only as thoughts in mind and sensations/feelings in

body. In otherword, Consciousness being Conscious of ITSELF,

liberating from limitations of objects.

Due to desires, vaasanas, attachments etc one is constantly occupied

by objects of perceptions and/or feelings such as anger, jealousy,

envy etc, samadhi state is not manifest as Consciousness is

identified with such objects.

 

When understanding takes place through inquiy, contemplations,

meditation(if one has inclination to path of Gyan), then one

realizes one is not body-mind based separate person, and samadhi

happens naturally. When samadhi state happens naturally regardless

of presence ot abscence of objects as perceptions, conceptions,

arising in Consciousness, Consciousness is liberated and a state of

Sahaj samadhi happens. (Many saints such as Ramana Maharshi,

Ramkrishna Paramhansa were in such a state while being engaged in

activities, as I know).

 

It is apperception meaning Consciousness being conscious of Itself

(Sat-Chit-Ananda swarupa) rather than objects, in all situations.

(Like wave now knows it is really water even as it appears to be

wave from the mind's perspective).

Such realization is of primary importance, and samadhi state may be

an indication only.

 

It is equally possible to realize this by total Devotion, or being

engaged in selfless Karma within guidelines of Dharma. In such

pursuits Grace is bestowed upon Sadhakas by Bhgwaan. Bliss, Love,

Peace, Harmony, Intelligence, Beauty manifest in life of such a

sadhaka which is the same experience of oneness as narrated by

realized ones or Bhagwaan's devotees!

To summarize, it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neither

is the only path to liberation! Realization through spiritual

sadhana with predominence of Self-inquiry, Devotion, or Karma-Yoga

can lead to ultimate Grace! One knows undoubtedly ONE is

Consciousness(Chit), which is Impersonal Being(sat), and therefore

is at the same time Fullness-Bliss(Anada)!

 

Namaskar.....

 

Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

 

Moksha need not neccesarily by Yoga or become a brahma gnani to

released from cycle of life, in Krishna clearly says easiest way to

attain nirvana is thru true love towards him, thru gnana and yoga

the yogi or upasaka should fix a time to leave this itself requires

lot of knowledge and takes many births.

 

So when easily gnana moksha is available why to go for toughest

thing.

 

But a good food contains all items Dhyana is neccessary along with

Bhakthi to attain the goal.

 

But any one who has read the Gita easily can understand and manage

both.

 

MANY HAVE DOUBTS WHEN KRIHNA SAYS BHAKTHI TAKES U TO MOKSHA THE EASY

WAY AND ALSO MENTIONS TO CONCENTRATE ON HIM(dhyana) AND ALSO MENTIONS

TO KARMA YOGA.

 

WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND WE SHOULD PLAY MUTIPLE MARGAS (path) TO ATTAIN

MOKSHA (salvation).

 

PLEASE READ GITA BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION ASK URSELF ASK LORD INSIDE

YOU.

 

Shapur Shiva

-------------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

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related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

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4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

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5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

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7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

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8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

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11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

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wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Shree Hari

Ram Ram

We are clearing up pending queue this week due to significant back

log. You will receive few extra emails next couple of days. Only

reply if essential point not covered by other sadhaks

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

--------------------------------

HARIOM,

 

Proponents of Dhyana Yoga (Yoga of Meditation)say one must attain

Nivikalp samadhi (a very difficult task for most people) to

completely eradicate the VASANAS (desires, passions, impressions

remaining in the mind) from the causal body. Thus they express that

any one of the other paths of the Holy Gita is not a sufficient

condition for mukti (liberation, benediction, release from rebirth

in the world, emancipation). Please remove my doubts completely and

in detail.

 

Hari Om Roy

----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Dear Sadaks,

There were so many Bakthas who got liberated living within the

family detached. They did nothing for Samadhi, which is only for

Yogis who renounced everything and went to forest.

baiya Sathyanarayan

-----------------------

 

the self is perfect .............

 

perfect, this moment now ...........

 

nothing needs being done

 

all is as it is designed to be,

 

designed, ordained, created by God, Nature, or

Existence ............

 

there is no need for any trnasformation in being ...............

 

the above is the truth of truths, my friends, yes it is !!

 

and yet,

 

unless it becomes narinder's truth, he continues to live with a

feeling " I am suffering "

 

thus begins a new search for a state of mind , which is free from

suffering .

 

this state of freedom is called No Mind ( or ego).

 

that state you would reach only through ' watching' of your own

conduct; Meditation leads us to that state of ' watching,

witnessing ........ '

 

every day, every single day, routine lives are lived, beginning from

the point, where we may be at that point of time.

 

It cannot be otherwise.

 

try and realise the immensity of this truth above. It is not that

we need to acquire anything new in our being …… but that we need

to free ourselves from those concepts and conditionings of the Mind

that eclipse our inner purity of being .

 

From this flows, ( if Grace alights ) the understanding that there

is a need to include in our day to day life, " The sadhna of

deliberate effort, to give a direction to our present being, to free

the Mind( de-eclipse our being) from Fear, Pain, and Delusion, the

cause of the feeling that ' I am suffering' .... "

 

All the BUDDHAS show us the Way of how to de-eclipse the mind.

 

We, who are on the Path .... the path of paths ...........

we need to be eternally vigilant for lapses in our own conduct, in

day to day life. We need to ' watch ' our own behaviour. We need

to' keep judging' ourselves.......................

 

....................judging ourselves ....................without

condemnation of our own selves ( for this could lead to

depression ), .......................and without justifying

ourselves ( this leads to spiritual arrogance, and literally stops

our ability to bring about any transformation in our being ) .

 

When the False is seen as False, it drops by itself …..and we move

one step closer to the Silence of Meditation.

 

Bhagvada Geetha it is that tells each one of us what conduct(

dharma, and swa-dharma) de-eclipses the Mind ..... as also how to

attain the wisdom and strength( understanding) for the same.

 

narinder bhandari

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

There are many opinions and beliefs surrounding Samadhi, various

types of it and is or is not necessary for Mukti.

I want to share simple approach to understand it based on experience

we all have.

1) When I-me sense, so dominating throughout the life, is lost in an

object because that object is so attractive, such as watching an

interesting movie, playing a game, witnessing a beautiful sunset or

sunrise, chanting mantra, or meditating, it is possible that

consciousness of " me " is temporarily forgotten/lost. At the time

there is only witnessing, not " me " witnessing objects, and hence

there is joy beyond mind and senses, however, temporary it may be.

I call this Savikalpa samadhi, but sense of " me " returns after the

state is over.

2) When there are no perceived objects, attractive or otherwise in

consciousness, consciousness turns inward to itself, so to speak,

being conscious of itself and nothing else, sense of " me " has gone

for some time. There is peace/bliss.

I call this Nirvikalpa Samadhi, but sense of " me " though weaker than

before, returns.

3) When Consciousness remains conscious of itself even when

perceived objects are present or absent and cannot take

Consciousness away from Itself, so to speak, there is only Non-dual

Existence experientially present. All objects or their absence are

seen as Consciousness only. All is thus Vasudev sarvam.

I call this Sahaj samadhi, our realized nature! This is really Mukti

itself, if it is truly one's experience, and not self-deception.

If samadhi is a state, then it just comes and goes, and hence is not

what we are!

One can label any ways one likes, but it is the experiential

realization of Being always free of all identifications, and being

Undivided Wholeness, Blissfulness, That is Mukti or liberation. It

is the Freedom from sense of " me " and therefore " others " . The moment

sense of " me " arises, it separates us, our beingness-consciousness

into many, and thus each of such apparant " many " feels lack,

incompleteness within him/her and desire to fulfil, to become Whole

through objects giving rise to suffering. Some Objects are taken to

give us happiness temporarily, which fools us from looking within

and realizing " we " are and always will be Free!

Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt

------------------------------

Namaskar to All,

 

Reading the life of Saints, we will find that Siddhis (miracles) are

presented from the Birth.

Why are they born again ? Very obvious: They have developed

themselves for these siddhis through different Yog. Weren't they

selfish ? We see in the Next life, they Serve (Seva) and reach

Moksha (salvation).

Bhakti Yog has some of it, but Raj Yog combines all.

--

Regards

 

Swapan PURKAYASTHA

--------------------------------

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

SUMMARY TO DATE - SADHAK RESONSES-

 

Liberation (Freedom) is releasing that which we have grabbed hold off

Liberation is very easy as freedom is the true nature of SELF

So to become free, mukta, no need for any samadhi.

Samadhi is a state of the kaaran sharir that is connected to nature.

Disconnection with inert is essential condition for Liberation-

Mineness with Paramatma is essential. " Sahaj Samadhi " is

necessary end result of liberation. What is Mukti? Moksha? Nirvan?

Self Realization? All are beyond body mind mechanism whereas samadhi

of any type or kind is within it and ends with vyutthaan (rising).

Eternal attachment with God treating samadhi, siddhis as tucha

(small, insignificant) is true liberation or moksha.

Bhagavan says - What you want to know when I am in front of you.

In Dyana yoga, Sahaja Yoga etc. easy to slip; can take several births

By becoming God's, He personally takes responsibility for moksha

Any yoga practiced rightly automatically incorporates the rest. Each

is COMPLETE in itself as well. Anything and everything floods toward

THAT. Method of worship depends on the nature of the individual.

important thing is to develop faith in and love of God. God has the

power to manifest before a devotee in any form, regardless of the

devotee's chosen form of worship. Samadhi = to control a reaction

or control a generation of electrons. gita is now a base for science

facts. Neither Samadhi is a condition nor Moksha a target. State

where no targets can emerge from, where no targets can persist and

where all the targets are completely annihilated is Moksha.

Selfless service key for moksha.

Samadhi or Mukti is the natural state, ever present.

Bhagavan said , " When I (GOD) am in front why you want to know about

all this knowledge " i.e. Samadhi levels, different types of yogas,

etc. is not necessary when Bhagavan comes to you. Bakthi is crown of

all spiritual practices. " Surrender to ME " , means love (Bhakti).

Nirvikalpa samadhi etc are difficult. Short cut is Bakthi Marg.

Moksha is the process by which we relieve ourselves from the cycle

of karma. This is done through sadhana - Sankhya Yoga.

Moksha is when " individual " with this body-mind " dissolves into THAT

which IS! Reality/Atman/Brahman/God and cannot be perceived(by mind)

because IT perceives everything, even mind-body-world. whatever we

do is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itself constitutes worship.

Moksha or Mukti is a matter of individual perception

Krishna says - easiest way to attain nirvana is thru true love

towards Him. Even Samadhi state comes and goes. We (Self) is beyond

that. it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neither

is it the only path to liberation!

Experiential realization of Being always free of all

identifications, and being Undivided Wholeness, Blissfulness, That

is Mukti or liberation. It is the Freedom from sense of " me " and

therefore " others " .

 

From Gita Talk Moderators

-----------------------------

 

pRIY SADHAK

samadhi is state if kaaran sharir which is again connected to nature.

Understanding self is ultimate

pl follow it

thanx

raja gurdasani

 

----------------------

RAM RAM

 

sajjan shri,

 

Swamiramsukhdasji in his " Sadhak-Sanjeevani " (Shreemadhbhagvadgita)

says that, stages like samadhi or siddhi is also material. These

stages can get destroyed by senses even if one attains them.

So " Sahaj yoga " is recommended ie in God or Ram or Shri Krishna

consciousness to practice karmas . For moksha if samadhi gets khandit

(broken) with time or senses after samadhis attainment , one then

realises futility of such conditions (samadhi siddhi) because they

are material conditions.

 

Eternal attachement with god treating samadhi, siddhis as tucha

(small, insignificant) is true liberation or moksha, because samadhi

siddhi dont liberate even mukti may not be possible by samadhi

siddhi what to tell of moksha.

 

Just living in god told way of bhavatgita is enough. You will get

moksha. And to get mokhsa complete surrendering to god Krishnaji is

enough without desiring even moksha mukti, any greed or lust, is a

necessary. THe spirit of Meerabai ie " Mera to girdhar Gopal Doosaro

na koi " . By " Koi " is not accepting any dependence on anything

material is spirit of surrenderring and in that stage you will get

ultimate peace or Moksha.

 

Yours truly,

Kalrav Pande

-------------------------

Dear Sadaks and eminent Sanskrit scholars kindly give your comments

with explanation very briefly for the below;

VADHANTHU SASTRANI,

YAJANTHU DEVANI,

KURVANTHU KARMANI,

BAJANTHU DEVATHAYAHA,

ATHUMA AAIKIYA BOTHENA,

VANAHI MUKTHI----NHASIDHYATE,

BHRAMA SATANTRA REPINE.

 

The above meaning co relates to Bagavan in Geetha saying to

Arjuna, " What you want to know when I (Bagavan) is in front of you.

Similarly in Geetha Bagavan says in one instance " Moodhaha "

(Ignorant people). Again this also relates to Bikshu Geetha Bagavan

delivered.

Crisp answer will make a reader understand better.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

---------------------------

 

Dear Hariji,

 

Nirvikalp or Savikalp are two different images captured in one's

mind - pl. note that both are based on the vikalp, a mental choice.

The Samadhi or mukti where such images are not needed on one hand

and cannot stay on the other hand is ever existent. For the sake of

conversational convenience, we often refer this state as Nirvikalp.

We should be cognizant that even the " nirvikalpatva " as perceived by

mind looses its presence just like the " savikalpatva " in such

natural presence.

 

As I see, Samadhi or Mukti is ever-present every-where. Samadhi or

Mukti is the natural state of all and therefore cannot be

characterized in any manner. Due to our preceptional ignorance and

existential inertia fuelled perptually by experiential desire-fear

cluster, we perpetually imagine to be not in THAT! One who realizes

has just cleared this opaqueness within ... you can call such

realization " Nirvikalpa " or " Nirvana " or " Sthitapragnyaa " or

Equanimity etc., no problem as far as they retain no significance in

themselves, as far as they do not become a concept (vikalpa) in

one's mind.

 

Once a desciple approaches Buddha to say he attained " emptyness " in

his mind. Buddha slaps him hard ... " That emptyness is filling your

mind! Emoty that as well!! " The mind has this terrible tendency to

make a vikalpa of everything ... even the nirvikalpatva or samadhi

or mukti ... My caution is toward that tendency ... not otherwise.

However you call or address THAT, THAT remains what IT IS.

 

Whether Mukti is one time or not is self-evident from the above. IT

never occurs since IT is ever present. IT can not be handled like

anything else perceived e.g. having it once, twice, thrice, etc. In

fact, one can never " have " THAT ... but one can always " be " THAT ...

rather everything " is " always THAT. I would say every one receives

the warmth from THAT every moment for the sheer existence. Most

have no clue of that; few imagine that; very few attain that

knowledgibly; very very few remain THERE as such ... the oftenness

is applicable to our ignorance and inertia - how often we break the

opaqueness of our ignorance and inertia is countable; NOT THAT!

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

What is Moksha and what is Bandhan ?

 

A story(this is how a monkey is caught)-

There are some chickpeas in a container. The mouth of the container

is very narrow. A monkey comes, sees the peas, put its hand in the

container and grab peas in his fist. Now it wants to take its hand

out from the container, but it cannot. Why ? so obvious. What it

need to do to get its hand out ? so obvious, just open the fist and

let the peas go. But no,no matter how hard he tries, he cannot take

his hand out.

Similarly we have grabbed this sansar/jagat. as soon as we

disconnect our selves with this sansar, we are free, Mukta.

Swamiji says - mukti sahaj hai(Liberation is easy). Bandhan mana hua

hai(Bondage is adopted). Because freedom is the true nature of SELF.

So to become free, mukta, no need for any samadhi. Swamiji often

says a highly evolved sadhak who has attained many siddhis may have

great experiences, he may wander different planes but its not

necessary that he will attain moksha.

 

with Love,

a Sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

------------------------------

YES, Brother Naga Narayana, you said it so nicely:

" Any yoga practiced rightly

automatically incorporates the rest - from this perspective, each is

COMPLETE in itself as well. "

 

here is another subset of the original question: ALL SADHANAS MUST

CULMINATE IN NIRVIKALP SAMADHI BEFORE MUKTI IS POSSIBLE ? in other

words, if one has not attained nirvikalp state, then one has a long

way to go? then another Question arises: is this samadhi a one time

deal or one has to be always or most of the time in that state?

 

Hari Om Roy

 

------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadaks,

 

Dyana yoga, Sahaja Yoga etc are same yoga prefixing Dyana

(meditation) to yoga. This is like God over Sahastra Nama, but

eventually GOD is one. Gowtham Rishi, Vasista, Viswamitra and so

many failed in yoga. In yoga the effort to be put is totally

cleansing the mind through out one` s life. Persons who succeeded

sometime fails, like the above stated Rishis at one part in their

lives. That is why Bagavan in Geetha says by Yoga one to reach HIM

may take several births. But becoming God's, developing a loving

relationship with Him, even while being in family, amidst society

and the world, living dharmic way as per the sastras, God

personally takes responsibility for such devotees and makes certain

that there is NO slippage from getting liberated.

 

Examples are many but few are being shared here:

Baktha Gora, pot maker accidentally stamped his son while meditating

on Panduranga. His wife in Anger said not to touch her. He remained

so for years. His wife married her sister to have issue to them.

But on wedding day the father in law promised to Gora to treat his

2cd daughter as he would treat his 1st wife. Gora said to his 2cd

wife on first night, that her elder sister was aloof from him and

so she also to remain aloof as promised by his father in law.

Having 2 wives Gora was singing and dancing in Bakthi without least

thought of senses. Wives one night touched hands of Gora who slain

ed his hands to keep up promise. God Panduranga came down as a

servant Rangan and worked in his house. Same was with Neelakanda

Nayanar Shiva Baktha where Bagavan Shiva came down to him. Bagavan

even touched and washed the feet of Kuchela for his love. Bagavan

even did shaving to King Badhusha on behalf of his Baktha. Bagavan

ran to save elephant Gajendra. What Prahalad did- Nava Rasa Bakthi

and Bagavan was always with him. For a cobbler (whose house even to

day exits) in Panderpur Bagavan stitched slipper for business. For a

housewife Sakubai, Bagavan took the form of Sankubai to fullfil her

desire to go to Panderpur and Bagavan was acting as Sakubai in her

house as servant. Sakubai dies in the temple when she is overwhelmed

seeing Moorthy Panduranga in the temple. She was cremated. But

Bagavan Shiva raises her to life from ashes. One can visit her house

in Gopalpur even today. A lady by name Poogodhai was raised to life

from Hasti (Ashes of Poogodhai) right in presence of public in a

temple Kabaleesvar- Mylapore in Chennai by a saint Thiru Gyna

Sambather.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

Respected Hari Om Roy,

 

Appreciate your remarks. Following is what revolves around in me at

this point

 

Dhyana " The intellect established in focus on an object for

appreciation Yoga "

Absolute Unison

Dhyana Yoga " Appreciation (of anything) in Absolute Unison

 

Dhyana yoga is a self-sufficient phrase as Bhagavan Vyaasa puts it

forward in the first place.

 

Being pulled apart from two polarities in our existence " individual

and universe

" we qualify this unique concept further:

 

Aatma Dhyana Yoga " Self Appreciation Brahma Dhyana Yoga " Universal

Appreciation

 

The inertially ignorant mind cannot fathom anything but an object

(Vishaya) and its image in its senses (Indriyas) and hence gravitates

all suggestions to the same Vishayendriya cluster (sensorial images

of object)

and hence looses the Absolute Unison intended in the first

place. Often, it is diluted to the perceived duo " vishaya and

indriya.

 

Vishaya Dhyana Yoga: Absolute appreciation of any object is enough.

Even " the letter, the pronunciation, the sound, the shape, the

syllable, its medium, its source, its destiny, its constitution, its

composites, etc. " is enough. If it is too simple … Aum … Omkara

Dhyana. Vishaya Dhyana in its purity tends toward Brahma Dhyana.

 

Indriya Dhyana Yoga: Absolute appreciation of any sense is also

sensible enough. Just an utterance is enough to pace toward the

absolute through the same sensory signal in truthful pursuit as

Krishna says very often in Gita - Indriyaaneendriyaartheshu. The

same Omkara helps to traverse inward as well. Indriya Dhyana in its

purity tends toward Aatma Dhyana.

 

The intended Dhyana Yoga becomes Dhyana Roga as the partial, lopsided

and wishful appreciation of oneself (subject) as well as the objects

(and their images in terms of actions, thoughts and desires) around

increases. Neither the subject (Aatman) nor the object (Brahman) is

appreciated in Absolute Unison. The subject is appreciated in terms

of

objectional images and the objects are appreciated in terms of

subjective desires, thoughts and actions. As such, there is nothing

wrong in either vishaya or in indriya … but, the corruption is in

our

perception of the same.

 

On the other hand, dwelling in three apparent domains in three

inherent forms, we cannot but gravitate to one of the three clusters

closest to our nature " physical, perceptional and experiential worlds

in terms of actions, thoughts and desires. Accordingly the same

Dhyana Yoga is

recommend with alternative adjectives from different schools of

thoughts:

 

Aatma Dhyana Yoga " Experiential Appreciation in the domain of desires

(aatma-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Gowdapada, Shankara, Ramana,

…)

Daiva Dhyana Yoga " Perceptional Appreciation in the domain of

thoughts (daiva-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Vallabha, Ramanuja,

Madhva)

Bhuta Dhyana Yoga " Existential Appreciation in the domain of actions

(bhouta-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Chaarvaaka, and most of us)

 

When the focus is turned to a limited identity, practical difficulty

of loosing the original intent is faced. We add another adjective to

emphasize on the basis for each rather than the tip of the ice berg

in each

domain:

 

Aadhyaatma Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Experiential Appreciation

Adhidaiva Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Perceptional Appreciation

Adhibhuta Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Existential Appreciation

 

The above three are also often referenced as Bhakti Yoga, Gnyaana

Yoga, and Karma Yoga with variant overlaps on each other.

 

Details are added perpetually distinctions are made that are lost in

the heap of overlapping attributes we loose the understanding

that the real appreciation of anything is in its simplicity and not

in

complexity nothing was required and nothing is required the

helpless mind needs some support as soon as it is given a choice, it

floods with its own images for its own sustenance.

As Ramana puts it, the mind flies around chasing the smoke and

fragrances dispersed from a sandle stick Dhyana is to push it to the

source of all smoke and fragrance around " the tip of the sandle

stick it runs away we should bring it the focal point that is the

game Dhyana

Yoga! That is Karma Yoga, as well as Gnyaana Yoga as well as Bhakti

Yoga as well

as any other yoga all for ONE and ONLY ONE to be THAT. You can call

it Samadhi

or Mukti or God or anything else.

 

Your observations are valid our pre-conditioned existence appears to

drift in variant directions. The wisdom is to integrate the

fragmented presence in all the domains of our existence " be it

actions, or

thoughts, or desires " concurrently. No multiple paths are prescribed

in Gita to

my understanding. ONE HAS TO CLEANSE ONESELF IN ALL RESPECTS, IN ALL

THE

EIGHTEEN DOMAINS IDENTIFIED

IN GITA! My understanding is to practice The Yoga in its

completeness rather

than in its fragment that appeals to me. Starting point is the same "

Vishada and

ending point is the same " Moksha Sanyasa. Every yoga in between is

a building

block to complete this puzzle for me. NONE OF THEM HAVE ANY

INDEPENDENT

EXISTENCE AS SUCH. ALL THE EIGHTEEN SERVE THE SINGLE PURPOSE " TO BE

THAT.

 

Personally, I do not to the popular acceptance that each

yoga or path can have their own credits. They have credits only in

unison with the rest in my appreciation. Any yoga practiced rightly

automatically incorporates the rest - from this perspective, each is

COMPLETE in itself as well. As far as The Truth at the pedestal of

one's presence, anything is fine and everything is fine because

anything and everything floods toward THAT.

 

If you have any specific question/objection to this, pl. feel free

express the same. I will attempt to address as I can.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Brother Naga Narayana says the question is redundant, it is not.

Journeyman faces the problem which Sadhana to do to reach the goal.

once you reach the goal then and then only QUESTION becomes

redundant. here are some more thoughts for your consideration and

comments:

 

IS THERE ONLY ONE RIGHT

 

WAY TO GOD?

 

Lord Krishna has been talking about both manifest and unmanifest

aspects of God in the previous chapters. Arjun's question has been

answered in great detail in this chapter, but people still argue

that one method of worship or certain religious practices are better

than others. Such persons only understand half the truth. In our

opinion, it is quite clear that the method of worship depends on the

nature of the individual. The person or the person's guru should

find out which path will be most suitable for the individual,

depending on the person's temperament. To force his or her own

method of worship on people is the greatest disservice a guru can do

to disciples. The important thing is to develop faith in and love of

God. God

has the power to manifest before a devotee in any form, regardless

of the

devotee's chosen form of worship.

 

What has worked for one may not work for all. There was no need for

the Lord to

discuss different paths of yoga if there was one path for all. If

the chosen

path of spiritual discipline does not give one peace or God-

realization, then it

must be understood that one is not practicing correctly or the path

is not right

for the individual.

 

Hari Om Roy

 

-------------------------------

 

Sir,

To represent the things in scientific ways,I like to say that'

It is now a fact that chemical rexs can create electric egergy and

eectric flow is result of oxidation,i.e. electron formation.In human

body also this simple system leads to energy and life.So,smadhi

means actually to control a reaction or control the generation of

electrons.Naturally it can lead to more life but of courst,provided

the chemical rex also is controlled,but not stopped.So,by limiting

intake and smadhi can increase life,but also decreases the current

to work.So,gita is now a base for science facts.

Regards,

sayal123

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

No ! Samadhi is certainly not a necessary condition for Moksha-

the " mineness " - an exclusive " mineness " with Paramatma is however a

desirable requirement for liberation. In fact, disconnection with

inert is essential condition for Liberation- whether that comes

through Karma Yoga or Jnana Yoga. For Bhakti Yoga , Mineness with

Paramatma is essential.

 

There is one more type of Samadhi- called " Sahaj Samadhi " . That is

necessary end result of liberation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

This a question filled with contradictions and inconsistencies.

 

Neither Samadhi is a condition nor Moksha a target.

 

State where no conditions can raise from, where no conditions can

survive and where all the conditions are completely obliterated is

Samadhi.

 

State where no targets can emerge from, where no targets can persist

and where all the targets are completely annihilated is Moksha.

 

They are synanmous to each other where there cannot be any necessity

or requirement as such.

 

Therefore, this question is redundant in itself for me.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

Bhagavan has said to Arjuna, " When I (GOD) am in front why you want

to know about all this knowledge " . Samadhi levels, different types

of yogas, Etc is not necessary when Bhagavan comes to you. Buddhi +

yoga = Buddhi yoga. So there is prefix Buddhi to yoga. So also in

other cases. But for Bakthi (worship, devotion, love of God) there

is no prefix. Why? Because Bakthi is crown of all spiritual

practices. Bakthi is unconditional constant and No change in any

condition in love towards GOD. Besides what Bakthi makes? All yogas

and samadhi levels in the world put together is practice to silence

the mind from totally to remove Vasanas. This type of practices by

one` s effort. So Bhagavan just remains witness to see how far you

can succeed. Bhagavan has clearly said in Geetha that by Yoga or by

Tapas (austerities) one can reach HIM after serveral births.

Bhagavan in same Geetha has also clearly said that HE can liberate a

person in one single (same Jalma) by HIS Sankalpa (resolve, vow).

Does it not seem contradictory? NO. First instance you are making

Sankalpa (will, resolve, intentions) to reach HIM. Whereas in second

instance Bagavan is making HIS sankalpa (resolve) to liberate you.

Simple Example: 1) Finite is trying to reach infinite. (2) Infinite

is trying to pull finite. Which will succeed? In prakuthi also Mass

can attract molecule. Bagavan has said that HE takes care of HIS

bhakta (devotees), if bhakta fails in his attempt. Bagavan has

given a designation as " Yoga Brasta " to such soul failed in bakthi

(worship and devotion).

In Sri Ranga Mahatyiyam script, mother Lakshmi points out to a

bhakta saying that he is doing mistakes. Bhagavan immediately says

to mother Lakshmi, " Here after YOU take care of YOUR baktha and I

(Bagavan) will take care of MY baktha " . One can see from scripts

that yogis are subjected to abuse and torcher. Where as Bakthas are

immediately rescued by Bagavan. When Bagavan has said in simple

terms, " Surrender to ME " , means love (Bhakti) why ponder over many

things.

Lastly the cat story of doing certain practices is Gift from Bagavan

to animals alone called Instinct. We humans have No instinct and the

gift of intellect from God is unused.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

------------------------

In our religion, the first 25 years are spent in learning, next 25

in married life, next 25 in religious activities with one's spouse

and the last 25 in sanyas. This is the time when one is free from

worldly duties and can totally concentrate(dhyan) or meditate and

become one with the Self and attain Nirvikalp samadhi and moksha or

liberation from the endless cycle of birth and death. There are

other paths like Karm yog and Gyan yog also but these take time.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

--------------------------

 

dear sadaks,

Nirvikalpa samadhi etc are difficult tasks which are performed by

yogis. Vasanas cannot go that easily. But short cut is Bakthi Marg.

In this Marg Bagavan comes to you rather than you searching HIM.

Examples: Bagavan came to numerous saints, played with them, lived

with them, protected them Baktha Gora, Purander Doss, Tukaram,

Pundalikan, Sakubai, Meera bai etc etc. These saints underwent

sufferings (which we feel) but they hardly knew what was happening.

Bakthi is surrender. Easy and simple way. Here your effort is Zero.

In samadhi level your effort is maximum.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

 

Hari Om.

 

I saw a kitten in my friend's house today.

It had lost its mother soon after it was born.

It never knew that it was a kitten and left alone.

without any observation or company of a cat, it does exactly

what a cat does.

To pass stool it dug a pit and pushed the mud back after passing

stool.

Now tell me who taught it to behave like a cat?

Its the impression of the brain that was formed when it was in its

mother's womb.

The same way all of act according to the impressions that are in our

brain from the day we entered our mother's womb.

This way we carry the good and bad deeds of previous birth

when we enter our mother's womb.

The karma cycle starts here for this birth.

For the good deeds we get comfort and for the bad deeds we

getdiscomfort

and misery.

MOKSHA IS THE PROCESS BY WHICH WE RELIEVE URSELVES

 

FROM THIS CYCLE OF KARMA.

 

This can be attained only by doing Sadhana.

Ths Sadhana takes us to SAMADHI.

Samadhi is the state where our soul light removes our karma.

This is the TRUTH OF GEETHA TOLD BY KRUSHNA IN KAPILA CHARITHRAM.

THis is known as Shankya Yoga in GEETHA.

with regards,

 

Usha sridhar

----------------------------

 

Yogiraj Madhvacarya's Response (Posted by HariOm Roy for the benefit

of the group)

 

It is a fact that unless one reaches into the causal body and works

at it on the causal plane, one cannot completely eradicate the

vasanas. Gita has given the path of buddhi yoga in chapter two,

especially in the last portion of chapter two as the solution and

instead of nirvikalpa, we get the term brahmanirvanam.

 

Gita enunciated two paths as karma yoga and jnana yoga. The path of

jnana yoga has within it the potential to attain the eradications of

the vasanas, but in my opinion the path of karma yoga will not

remove the vasanas but will remove most of the inconvenient or

undesirable vasanas.

 

If someone does not see that the path of jnana yoga and particularly

the buddhi yoga techniques discussed by Sri Krishna as containing

the solution of the problem of the vasanas, it means that the person

does not understand the Sanskrit terms and is giving those terms

insufficient meanings.

 

But in that case if one goes to the Uddhava Gita, one will get a

more in-depth and detailed instruction for that jnana yoga and then

one's doubts about Gita should be removed.

 

Buddhi yoga as given in Bhagavad Gita is a practice which was taught

by Sri Krishna to both the jnana yogis and the karma yogis. Karma

yogis students like Arjuna got that skill through the practice of

elementary meditation yoga and with that psychological proficiency,

they applied this to their life in the cultural world, as

politicians, state officials and state warriors. The proficiency of

this for a karma yogi shows by his detachment when punishing and

impartiality when dealing with citizens. Thus Krishna requested

Arjuna to exhibit the buddhi yoga proficient on the battlefield of

Kurukshetra, just as Janak and other legendary kings did in the

Vedic history.

 

Basically speaking the meditative yoga practice of those karma yogis

ended with this buddhi yoga and its result in their life was

highlighted by their detachment and impartially.

 

First we begin by defining yoga and to do so we must go to

Patanjali. He gave us an eight (8) part system which become known

also as Ashtanga yoga.

 

Thus bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga. Buddhi yoga is buddhi+yoga. Jnana

yoga is jnana+yoga. Atma yoga is atma+ yoga and so on. In this way

we will be clear when we use these terms. Now if we agree that

bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga, then what is bhakti? The answer is

that bhakti is bhakti. The next question is : Can someone reach

perfection by bhakti alone.. And the answer is that scriptures give

us examples of persons who did just that, persons like the gopis.

 

Then there is another question, why do yoga and then apply it to

bhakti if one can reach perfection by bhakti alone. The answer is

obvious, that it would be foolish to do yoga and apply bhakti if you

can reach perfection by bhakti alone. Therefore we accept that only

those who will fail at bhakti by itself should do yoga and then do

bhakti.

 

But then there is another question as to why even bother with yoga .

The answer to that is given by Sri Krishna when he defined the

purpose of yoga as atmavishuddha in Chapter 6 verse 12.

 

Therefore if one finds that his or her bhakti is not getting

perfection, that person may do yoga for purification of the psyche

(atma), the psychological energies. Then when yoga is successful in

that purpose, he or she can apply bhakti and get the desired success.

 

Buddhi yoga? What is that?

 

That is the application of yoga practice to curbing and purifying

the intellect, the buddhi. It has to do with that one aspect only,

the buddhi. It concerns nothing else. It is the process of curbing

the buddhi by meditational techniques.

 

The mastership of the 5th pratyahar stage of yoga and the beginning

practice of the 6th dharana stage concerns buddhi yoga, the curbing

and subjugation of the buddhi organ in the subtle body.

 

The difficulty with implementing the removal of the vasanas, has to

do with the deficiency of the human being. This deficiency comes

from the natural way which is to focus into the gross plane of

existence. Due to that we have no accurate knowledge or experience

of the subtle existence. And to make matters worse, the causal plane

is even more abstract than the subtle level.

 

How many of us are willing to take up a sadhana which would cause an

increase in subtle perception? How many of us would make that our

top priority to do whatever would be necessary to shut down most of

our physical interest and to put our attention over to the subtle

side.

 

I feel this is our impediment.

 

The causal level, which has within it the seed energies (bija) of

the vasanas, cannot be reached until we develop very subtle

perception. How can you affect something which you can neither see

nor feel. So first we have to get subtle vision then super subtle

vision then we can tackle the root energies of the vasanas which

influence and dominate us on this level.

 

From this physical plane we cannot eradicate the vasanas because

their supportive and motivational roots are coming from the causal

level. We can however limited their main manifestation if we apply

strong moral principles in an attempt to restrict vices and promote

a righteous lifestyle (dharma).

 

Over time of practicing dharma, one develops some resistance to some

of the very gross and vulgar vasanas. From this one develops a

strength to challenge the motivational forces, and then gradually

one develops introspection and moves into higher yoga practice. Thus

karma yoga serves as a stepping stone to jnana yoga which is the

practice for directly challenging the vasanas first in the subtle

body and then at their rooting on the causal plane.

 

One easy way to understand the difference between nirvikalpa and

savikalpa samadhi is through the example of one electric circuit

which has only a light bulb and another circuit which has a light

bulb and a meter.

 

The electric supply or generator would serve as representing God or

representing the supreme brahman, while the bulb and its little

circuit presents the jiva or yogi. When we plug the circuit into the

electric supply, the light glows, because it is connected to that

power..

 

In the second example there is a meter attached to the bulb ,

whereby when the circuit is plugged in, the bulb glows but the meter

also registers a certain quality of current.

 

In the first example the bulb gets the full current and is fully

charged with the supreme power, while in the second example only

some of the current is used by the bulb since the meter which

measures the current, absorbs some of the electric force.

 

Thus in the second example the yogi's mind which measures and

analyzes the power which flows from the Supreme, causes a reduction

in his contact with the Supreme power.

 

The advantage of the first example is that the yogi gets to feel the

full supreme power, while in the second example the yogi cannot

experience the full power but is better able to describe his

experience because he was able to measure the intensity of the

supreme power/

 

In the first example, after the samadhi the yogi might say, " I

experience it but there is no way that I can describe it to you. It

was fully subjective. It was not objective. It was like: I was it

and it was me. "

 

In the second case the yogi might say, " I measured it as I

experienced it. I will describe it to you. I was objective to it.

 

Madhavacharya (Michael Beloved)

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Please correct the misconcept that Holy Gita is insufficient by

reading and assimilating verse 66 of chapter 18. What is Moksh? What

is Mukti? What is Nirvan? What is Realization of Self? All these are

beyond body mind mechanism whereas samadhi of any type or kind is

within it and ends with vyutthaan.

please be specific as to how and where Gita is found insufficient.

Thanks and Regards,

Sarvottam

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Just a quick observation on Divakaranji's post.

Sure, it is a great worship when whatever we do as Krishnaarpanam.

Such sustained worshiping attitude can lead one to Moksha because

the highest one can offer(arpana to Krishna) is oneself-ego in total

surrender!

But Moksha or Mukti is not a matter of individual perception, rather

freedom from Individuality itself! Moksha is when " individual " is

seen as illusion, and all his/her perceptions including " I am an

individual with this body-mind " dissolves into THAT which IS! It is

the only Reality/Atman/Brahman/God and cannot be perceived(by mind)

because IT perceives everything, even mind-body-world.

Namaskar.............

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

My dear Sadhak Gurujan,

When whatever we do is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itself

constitutes worship. Whether Moksha or Mukti is thus achieved is a

matter of individual perception.

 

Subbanarasu Divakaran

 

----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In my seeing, it is the most important that one realizes what one

truly IS!, not as one thinks or believes one is! Samadhi as I

understand it, is a state which comes and goes, so " we " cannot be

such a state. We are THAT whatever THAT may be, in which such states

come and go, but we don't ever come or go as Consciousness!

Upon investigation we may discover that such state as savikalpa

samadhi arises in our Consciousness (which is also our Beingness) in

meditation while focusing on God or breath etc., and when samadhi

state leaves us it goes back to same Consciousness just as wave

arising and vanishing back to ocean(water really). We know " we " are

Ocean of Consciousness even when waves arise or vanish.

 

Nirvikalpa samadhi is when Consciousness is devoid of objects

experienced only as thoughts in mind and sensations/feelings in

body. In otherword, Consciousness being Conscious of ITSELF,

liberating from limitations of objects.

Due to desires, vaasanas, attachments etc one is constantly occupied

by objects of perceptions and/or feelings such as anger, jealousy,

envy etc, samadhi state is not manifest as Consciousness is

identified with such objects.

 

When understanding takes place through inquiy, contemplations,

meditation(if one has inclination to path of Gyan), then one

realizes one is not body-mind based separate person, and samadhi

happens naturally. When samadhi state happens naturally regardless

of presence ot abscence of objects as perceptions, conceptions,

arising in Consciousness, Consciousness is liberated and a state of

Sahaj samadhi happens. (Many saints such as Ramana Maharshi,

Ramkrishna Paramhansa were in such a state while being engaged in

activities, as I know).

 

It is apperception meaning Consciousness being conscious of Itself

(Sat-Chit-Ananda swarupa) rather than objects, in all situations.

(Like wave now knows it is really water even as it appears to be

wave from the mind's perspective).

Such realization is of primary importance, and samadhi state may be

an indication only.

 

It is equally possible to realize this by total Devotion, or being

engaged in selfless Karma within guidelines of Dharma. In such

pursuits Grace is bestowed upon Sadhakas by Bhgwaan. Bliss, Love,

Peace, Harmony, Intelligence, Beauty manifest in life of such a

sadhaka which is the same experience of oneness as narrated by

realized ones or Bhagwaan's devotees!

To summarize, it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neither

is the only path to liberation! Realization through spiritual

sadhana with predominence of Self-inquiry, Devotion, or Karma-Yoga

can lead to ultimate Grace! One knows undoubtedly ONE is

Consciousness(Chit), which is Impersonal Being(sat), and therefore

is at the same time Fullness-Bliss(Anada)!

 

Namaskar.....

 

Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

 

Moksha need not neccesarily by Yoga or become a brahma gnani to

released from cycle of life, in Krishna clearly says easiest way to

attain nirvana is thru true love towards him, thru gnana and yoga

the yogi or upasaka should fix a time to leave this itself requires

lot of knowledge and takes many births.

 

So when easily gnana moksha is available why to go for toughest

thing.

 

But a good food contains all items Dhyana is neccessary along with

Bhakthi to attain the goal.

 

But any one who has read the Gita easily can understand and manage

both.

 

MANY HAVE DOUBTS WHEN KRIHNA SAYS BHAKTHI TAKES U TO MOKSHA THE EASY

WAY AND ALSO MENTIONS TO CONCENTRATE ON HIM(dhyana) AND ALSO MENTIONS

TO KARMA YOGA.

 

WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND WE SHOULD PLAY MUTIPLE MARGAS (path) TO ATTAIN

MOKSHA (salvation).

 

PLEASE READ GITA BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION ASK URSELF ASK LORD INSIDE

YOU.

 

Shapur Shiva

-------------------------------

 

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Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Shree HariRam RamWe are clearing up pending queue this week due to significant backlog. ONLY REPLY IF NOT ALREADY COVERED by other sadhaksFrom Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------------------------------HARIOM,Proponents of Dhyana Yoga (Yoga of Meditation)say one must attainNivikalp samadhi (a very difficult task for most people) tocompletely eradicate the VASANAS (desires, passions, impressionsremaining in the mind) from the causal body. Thus they express thatany one of the other paths of the Holy Gita is not a sufficientcondition for mukti (liberation, benediction, release from rebirthin the world, emancipation). Please remove my doubts completely andin detail.Hari Om Roy----------------------------NEW POSTING

Sadhak HariOm Roy has raised a pertinent point

 

My understanding of Gita and other scriptures relating to

Sel-realisation is that NIRVIKALPA SAMADHI IS THE

STATE when the SELF CEASES to exist.

It is a state of experiencing and not an experience. The

Latter state implies an experiencer (the self) and the experience.

srl narasimhan

-----------------

Hari Om

 

Regarding the fresh Question of Sadhak Hari Om Roy, I may state that the "Samadhi" has not been stated anywhere to be the ONLY eradicator of VAASANAS from the causal body. On the contrary, it is in Dhyaan Yoga only that a person is allowed to carry desires with him till the end. In fact, many of the people have the object of getting "siddhis" ( Super-natural powers) out of concentration of mind and out of Samadhi. Gita has identified many other methods of getting desireless and so have other Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. Therefore, it is not a correct statement that one get desireless only through Samadhi and through no other means. As stated , reverse is the case, as in Samadhi state till the end one can retain subtle desires , which desires catapult , if the yogi so wants, into "siddhis" ! Moreover, even for Dhyaan Yogis, in the end, the disconnection with inert is essential condition for MOKSHA. That disconnection with inert, is certainly more easily attained through Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga or Bhakti Yogas stated in Holy Gita. Even Lord Krishna has stated in Holy Gita that to master Dhyaan Yoga is a very difficult task ( as compared with other yogas say Karma or Bhakti Yoga). Hence the advice given to you by certain people is not a correct advice and is not supported by Holy Gita.

Hope this clarifies the query fully.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------

Dear Sadhak

In short Moksha is available through many processes as narrated in our scriptures.One of them way to achieve is to get Moksha throguh the process of meditartion. In this meditation practice first comes concentration,then Samadhi and final we got an opportunity to seek Moksha.Samadhi is such a word that it come every stage of moksha.When We recite Bhajans,we are so much engrossed that our mind is in the stage of Samadhi This is what I experience in my offering of prayers everyday.How you feel about my short experience in life Contributed by a Brahmin eighty five years old.

Truly yours

 

Shankerprasad S Bhatt

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadaks,There were so many Bakthas who got liberated living within thefamily detached. They did nothing for Samadhi, which is only forYogis who renounced everything and went to forest.baiya Sathyanarayan-----------------------the self is perfect .............perfect, this moment now ...........nothing needs being doneall is as it is designed to be,designed, ordained, created by God, Nature, orExistence ............there is no need for any trnasformation in being ...............the above is the truth of truths, my friends, yes it is !!and yet,unless it becomes narinder's truth, he continues to live with afeeling " I am suffering"thus begins a new search for a state of mind , which is free fromsuffering .this state of freedom is called No Mind ( or ego).that state you would reach only through ' watching' of your ownconduct; Meditation leads us to that state of ' watching,witnessing ........ 'every day, every single day, routine lives are lived, beginning fromthe point, where we may be at that point of time.It cannot be otherwise.try and realise the immensity of this truth above. It is not thatwe need to acquire anything new in our being …… but that we needto free ourselves from those concepts and conditionings of the Mindthat eclipse our inner purity of being .From this flows, ( if Grace alights ) the understanding that thereis a need to include in our day to day life, " The sadhna ofdeliberate effort, to give a direction to our present being, to freethe Mind( de-eclipse our being) from Fear, Pain, and Delusion, thecause of the feeling that ' I am suffering' .... "All the BUDDHAS show us the Way of how to de-eclipse the mind.We, who are on the Path .... the path of paths ...........we need to be eternally vigilant for lapses in our own conduct, inday to day life. We need to ' watch ' our own behaviour. We needto' keep judging' ourselves..........................................judging ourselves ....................withoutcondemnation of our own selves ( for this could lead todepression ), .......................and without justifyingourselves ( this leads to spiritual arrogance, and literally stopsour ability to bring about any transformation in our being ) .When the False is seen as False, it drops by itself …..and we moveone step closer to the Silence of Meditation.Bhagvada Geetha it is that tells each one of us what conduct(dharma, and swa-dharma) de-eclipses the Mind ..... as also how toattain the wisdom and strength( understanding) for the same.narinder bhandari----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadhakas, Namaste!There are many opinions and beliefs surrounding Samadhi, varioustypes of it and is or is not necessary for Mukti.I want to share simple approach to understand it based on experiencewe all have.1) When I-me sense, so dominating throughout the life, is lost in anobject because that object is so attractive, such as watching aninteresting movie, playing a game, witnessing a beautiful sunset orsunrise, chanting mantra, or meditating, it is possible thatconsciousness of "me" is temporarily forgotten/lost. At the timethere is only witnessing, not "me" witnessing objects, and hencethere is joy beyond mind and senses, however, temporary it may be.I call this Savikalpa samadhi, but sense of "me" returns after thestate is over.2) When there are no perceived objects, attractive or otherwise inconsciousness, consciousness turns inward to itself, so to speak,being conscious of itself and nothing else, sense of "me" has gonefor some time. There is peace/bliss.I call this Nirvikalpa Samadhi, but sense of "me" though weaker thanbefore, returns.3) When Consciousness remains conscious of itself even whenperceived objects are present or absent and cannot takeConsciousness away from Itself, so to speak, there is only Non-dualExistence experientially present. All objects or their absence areseen as Consciousness only. All is thus Vasudev sarvam.I call this Sahaj samadhi, our realized nature! This is really Muktiitself, if it is truly one's experience, and not self-deception.If samadhi is a state, then it just comes and goes, and hence is notwhat we are!One can label any ways one likes, but it is the experientialrealization of Being always free of all identifications, and beingUndivided Wholeness, Blissfulness, That is Mukti or liberation. Itis the Freedom from sense of "me" and therefore "others". The momentsense of "me" arises, it separates us, our beingness-consciousnessinto many, and thus each of such apparant "many" feels lack,incompleteness within him/her and desire to fulfil, to become Wholethrough objects giving rise to suffering. Some Objects are taken togive us happiness temporarily, which fools us from looking withinand realizing "we" are and always will be Free!Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt------------------------------Namaskar to All,Reading the life of Saints, we will find that Siddhis (miracles) arepresented from the Birth.Why are they born again ? Very obvious: They have developedthemselves for these siddhis through different Yog. Weren't theyselfish ? We see in the Next life, they Serve (Seva) and reachMoksha (salvation).Bhakti Yog has some of it, but Raj Yog combines all.--RegardsSwapan PURKAYASTHA--------------------------------Shree HariRam RamSUMMARY TO DATE - SADHAK RESONSES-Liberation (Freedom) is releasing that which we have grabbed hold offLiberation is very easy as freedom is the true nature of SELFSo to become free, mukta, no need for any samadhi.Samadhi is a state of the kaaran sharir that is connected to nature.Disconnection with inert is essential condition for Liberation-Mineness with Paramatma is essential. "Sahaj Samadhi" isnecessary end result of liberation. What is Mukti? Moksha? Nirvan?Self Realization? All are beyond body mind mechanism whereas samadhiof any type or kind is within it and ends with vyutthaan (rising).Eternal attachment with God treating samadhi, siddhis as tucha(small, insignificant) is true liberation or moksha.Bhagavan says - What you want to know when I am in front of you.In Dyana yoga, Sahaja Yoga etc. easy to slip; can take several birthsBy becoming God's, He personally takes responsibility for mokshaAny yoga practiced rightly automatically incorporates the rest. Eachis COMPLETE in itself as well. Anything and everything floods towardTHAT. Method of worship depends on the nature of the individual.important thing is to develop faith in and love of God. God has thepower to manifest before a devotee in any form, regardless of thedevotee's chosen form of worship. Samadhi = to control a reactionor control a generation of electrons. gita is now a base for sciencefacts. Neither Samadhi is a condition nor Moksha a target. Statewhere no targets can emerge from, where no targets can persist andwhere all the targets are completely annihilated is Moksha.Selfless service key for moksha.Samadhi or Mukti is the natural state, ever present.Bhagavan said , "When I (GOD) am in front why you want to know aboutall this knowledge" i.e. Samadhi levels, different types of yogas,etc. is not necessary when Bhagavan comes to you. Bakthi is crown ofall spiritual practices. "Surrender to ME", means love (Bhakti).Nirvikalpa samadhi etc are difficult. Short cut is Bakthi Marg.Moksha is the process by which we relieve ourselves from the cycleof karma. This is done through sadhana - Sankhya Yoga.Moksha is when "individual" with this body-mind" dissolves into THATwhich IS! Reality/Atman/Brahman/God and cannot be perceived(by mind)because IT perceives everything, even mind-body-world. whatever wedo is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itself constitutes worship.Moksha or Mukti is a matter of individual perceptionKrishna says - easiest way to attain nirvana is thru true lovetowards Him. Even Samadhi state comes and goes. We (Self) is beyondthat. it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neitheris it the only path to liberation!Experiential realization of Being always free of allidentifications, and being Undivided Wholeness, Blissfulness, Thatis Mukti or liberation. It is the Freedom from sense of "me" andtherefore "others".From Gita Talk Moderators-----------------------------pRIY SADHAKsamadhi is state if kaaran sharir which is again connected to nature.Understanding self is ultimatepl follow itthanxraja gurdasani----------------------RAM RAMsajjan shri,Swamiramsukhdasji in his "Sadhak-Sanjeevani"(Shreemadhbhagvadgita)says that, stages like samadhi or siddhi is also material. Thesestages can get destroyed by senses even if one attains them.So "Sahaj yoga" is recommended ie in God or Ram or Shri Krishnaconsciousness to practice karmas . For moksha if samadhi gets khandit(broken) with time or senses after samadhis attainment , one thenrealises futility of such conditions (samadhi siddhi) because theyare material conditions.Eternal attachement with god treating samadhi, siddhis as tucha(small, insignificant) is true liberation or moksha, because samadhisiddhi dont liberate even mukti may not be possible by samadhisiddhi what to tell of moksha.Just living in god told way of bhavatgita is enough. You will getmoksha. And to get mokhsa complete surrendering to god Krishnaji isenough without desiring even moksha mukti, any greed or lust, is anecessary. THe spirit of Meerabai ie "Mera to girdhar Gopal Doosarona koi". By "Koi" is not accepting any dependence on anythingmaterial is spirit of surrenderring and in that stage you will getultimate peace or Moksha.Yours truly,Kalrav Pande-------------------------Dear Sadaks and eminent Sanskrit scholars kindly give your commentswith explanation very briefly for the below;VADHANTHU SASTRANI,YAJANTHU DEVANI,KURVANTHU KARMANI,BAJANTHU DEVATHAYAHA,ATHUMA AAIKIYA BOTHENA,VANAHI MUKTHI----NHASIDHYATE,BHRAMA SATANTRA REPINE.The above meaning co relates to Bagavan in Geetha saying toArjuna, " What you want to know when I (Bagavan) is in front of you.Similarly in Geetha Bagavan says in one instance "Moodhaha"(Ignorant people). Again this also relates to Bikshu Geetha Bagavandelivered.Crisp answer will make a reader understand better.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan---------------------------Dear Hariji,Nirvikalp or Savikalp are two different images captured in one'smind - pl. note that both are based on the vikalp, a mental choice.The Samadhi or mukti where such images are not needed on one handand cannot stay on the other hand is ever existent. For the sake ofconversational convenience, we often refer this state as Nirvikalp.We should be cognizant that even the "nirvikalpatva" as perceived bymind looses its presence just like the "savikalpatva" in suchnatural presence.As I see, Samadhi or Mukti is ever-present every-where. Samadhi orMukti is the natural state of all and therefore cannot becharacterized in any manner. Due to our preceptional ignorance andexistential inertia fuelled perptually by experiential desire-fearcluster, we perpetually imagine to be not in THAT! One who realizeshas just cleared this opaqueness within ... you can call suchrealization "Nirvikalpa" or "Nirvana" or "Sthitapragnyaa" orEquanimity etc., no problem as far as they retain no significance inthemselves, as far as they do not become a concept (vikalpa) inone's mind.Once a desciple approaches Buddha to say he attained "emptyness" inhis mind. Buddha slaps him hard ... "That emptyness is filling yourmind! Emoty that as well!!" The mind has this terrible tendency tomake a vikalpa of everything ... even the nirvikalpatva or samadhior mukti ... My caution is toward that tendency ... not otherwise.However you call or address THAT, THAT remains what IT IS.Whether Mukti is one time or not is self-evident from the above. ITnever occurs since IT is ever present. IT can not be handled likeanything else perceived e.g. having it once, twice, thrice, etc. Infact, one can never "have" THAT ... but one can always "be" THAT ...rather everything "is" always THAT. I would say every one receivesthe warmth from THAT every moment for the sheer existence. Mosthave no clue of that; few imagine that; very few attain thatknowledgibly; very very few remain THERE as such ... the oftennessis applicable to our ignorance and inertia - how often we break theopaqueness of our ignorance and inertia is countable; NOT THAT!Respects.Naga Narayana.------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadhak,What is Moksha and what is Bandhan ?A story(this is how a monkey is caught)-There are some chickpeas in a container. The mouth of the containeris very narrow. A monkey comes, sees the peas, put its hand in thecontainer and grab peas in his fist. Now it wants to take its handout from the container, but it cannot. Why ? so obvious. What itneed to do to get its hand out ? so obvious, just open the fist andlet the peas go. But no,no matter how hard he tries, he cannot takehis hand out.Similarly we have grabbed this sansar/jagat. as soon as wedisconnect our selves with this sansar, we are free, Mukta.Swamiji says - mukti sahaj hai(Liberation is easy). Bandhan mana huahai(Bondage is adopted). Because freedom is the true nature of SELF.So to become free, mukta, no need for any samadhi. Swamiji oftensays a highly evolved sadhak who has attained many siddhis may havegreat experiences, he may wander different planes but its notnecessary that he will attain moksha.with Love,a SadhikaSadhna Karigar------------------------------YES, Brother Naga Narayana, you said it so nicely:"Any yoga practiced rightlyautomatically incorporates the rest - from this perspective, each isCOMPLETE in itself as well. "here is another subset of the original question: ALL SADHANAS MUSTCULMINATE IN NIRVIKALP SAMADHI BEFORE MUKTI IS POSSIBLE ? in otherwords, if one has not attained nirvikalp state, then one has a longway to go? then another Question arises: is this samadhi a one timedeal or one has to be always or most of the time in that state?Hari Om Roy------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadaks,Dyana yoga, Sahaja Yoga etc are same yoga prefixing Dyana(meditation) to yoga. This is like God over Sahastra Nama, buteventually GOD is one. Gowtham Rishi, Vasista, Viswamitra and somany failed in yoga. In yoga the effort to be put is totallycleansing the mind through out one` s life. Persons who succeededsometime fails, like the above stated Rishis at one part in theirlives. That is why Bagavan in Geetha says by Yoga one to reach HIMmay take several births. But becoming God's, developing a lovingrelationship with Him, even while being in family, amidst societyand the world, living dharmic way as per the sastras, Godpersonally takes responsibility for such devotees and makes certainthat there is NO slippage from getting liberated.Examples are many but few are being shared here:Baktha Gora, pot maker accidentally stamped his son while meditatingon Panduranga. His wife in Anger said not to touch her. He remainedso for years. His wife married her sister to have issue to them.But on wedding day the father in law promised to Gora to treat his2cd daughter as he would treat his 1st wife. Gora said to his 2cdwife on first night, that her elder sister was aloof from him andso she also to remain aloof as promised by his father in law.Having 2 wives Gora was singing and dancing in Bakthi without leastthought of senses. Wives one night touched hands of Gora who slained his hands to keep up promise. God Panduranga came down as aservant Rangan and worked in his house. Same was with NeelakandaNayanar Shiva Baktha where Bagavan Shiva came down to him. Bagavaneven touched and washed the feet of Kuchela for his love. Bagavaneven did shaving to King Badhusha on behalf of his Baktha. Bagavanran to save elephant Gajendra. What Prahalad did- Nava Rasa Bakthiand Bagavan was always with him. For a cobbler (whose house even today exits) in Panderpur Bagavan stitched slipper for business. For ahousewife Sakubai, Bagavan took the form of Sankubai to fullfil herdesire to go to Panderpur and Bagavan was acting as Sakubai in herhouse as servant. Sakubai dies in the temple when she is overwhelmedseeing Moorthy Panduranga in the temple. She was cremated. ButBagavan Shiva raises her to life from ashes. One can visit her housein Gopalpur even today. A lady by name Poogodhai was raised to lifefrom Hasti (Ashes of Poogodhai) right in presence of public in atemple Kabaleesvar- Mylapore in Chennai by a saint Thiru GynaSambather.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan-----------------------------Respected Hari Om Roy,Appreciate your remarks. Following is what revolves around in me atthis pointDhyana "The intellect established in focus on an object forappreciation Yoga "Absolute UnisonDhyana Yoga " Appreciation (of anything) in Absolute UnisonDhyana yoga is a self-sufficient phrase as Bhagavan Vyaasa puts itforward in the first place.Being pulled apart from two polarities in our existence "individualand universe"we qualify this unique concept further:Aatma Dhyana Yoga " Self Appreciation Brahma Dhyana Yoga" UniversalAppreciationThe inertially ignorant mind cannot fathom anything but an object(Vishaya) and its image in its senses (Indriyas) and hence gravitatesall suggestions to the same Vishayendriya cluster (sensorial imagesof object)and hence looses the Absolute Unison intended in the firstplace. Often, it is diluted to the perceived duo "vishaya andindriya.Vishaya Dhyana Yoga: Absolute appreciation of any object is enough.Even " the letter, the pronunciation, the sound, the shape, thesyllable, its medium, its source, its destiny, its constitution, itscomposites, etc." is enough. If it is too simple … Aum … OmkaraDhyana. Vishaya Dhyana in its purity tends toward Brahma Dhyana.Indriya Dhyana Yoga: Absolute appreciation of any sense is alsosensible enough. Just an utterance is enough to pace toward theabsolute through the same sensory signal in truthful pursuit asKrishna says very often in Gita - Indriyaaneendriyaartheshu. Thesame Omkara helps to traverse inward as well. Indriya Dhyana in itspurity tends toward Aatma Dhyana.The intended Dhyana Yoga becomes Dhyana Roga as the partial, lopsidedand wishful appreciation of oneself (subject) as well as the objects(and their images in terms of actions, thoughts and desires) aroundincreases. Neither the subject (Aatman) nor the object (Brahman) isappreciated in Absolute Unison. The subject is appreciated in termsofobjectional images and the objects are appreciated in terms ofsubjective desires, thoughts and actions. As such, there is nothingwrong in either vishaya or in indriya … but, the corruption is inourperception of the same.On the other hand, dwelling in three apparent domains in threeinherent forms, we cannot but gravitate to one of the three clustersclosest to our nature "physical, perceptional and experiential worldsin terms of actions, thoughts and desires. Accordingly the sameDhyana Yoga isrecommend with alternative adjectives from different schools ofthoughts:Aatma Dhyana Yoga "Experiential Appreciation in the domain of desires(aatma-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Gowdapada, Shankara, Ramana,…)Daiva Dhyana Yoga " Perceptional Appreciation in the domain ofthoughts (daiva-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Vallabha, Ramanuja,Madhva)Bhuta Dhyana Yoga " Existential Appreciation in the domain of actions(bhouta-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Chaarvaaka, and most of us)When the focus is turned to a limited identity, practical difficultyof loosing the original intent is faced. We add another adjective toemphasize on the basis for each rather than the tip of the ice bergin eachdomain:Aadhyaatma Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Experiential AppreciationAdhidaiva Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Perceptional AppreciationAdhibhuta Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Existential AppreciationThe above three are also often referenced as Bhakti Yoga, GnyaanaYoga, and Karma Yoga with variant overlaps on each other.Details are added perpetually distinctions are made that are lost inthe heap of overlapping attributes we loose the understandingthat the real appreciation of anything is in its simplicity and notincomplexity nothing was required and nothing is required thehelpless mind needs some support as soon as it is given a choice, itfloods with its own images for its own sustenance.As Ramana puts it, the mind flies around chasing the smoke andfragrances dispersed from a sandle stick Dhyana is to push it to thesource of all smoke and fragrance around " the tip of the sandlestick it runs away we should bring it the focal point that is thegame DhyanaYoga! That is Karma Yoga, as well as Gnyaana Yoga as well as BhaktiYoga as wellas any other yoga all for ONE and ONLY ONE to be THAT. You can callit Samadhior Mukti or God or anything else.Your observations are valid our pre-conditioned existence appears todrift in variant directions. The wisdom is to integrate thefragmented presence in all the domains of our existence "be itactions, orthoughts, or desires" concurrently. No multiple paths are prescribedin Gita tomy understanding. ONE HAS TO CLEANSE ONESELF IN ALL RESPECTS, IN ALLTHEEIGHTEEN DOMAINS IDENTIFIEDIN GITA! My understanding is to practice The Yoga in itscompleteness ratherthan in its fragment that appeals to me. Starting point is the same"Vishada andending point is the same " Moksha Sanyasa. Every yoga in between isa buildingblock to complete this puzzle for me. NONE OF THEM HAVE ANYINDEPENDENTEXISTENCE AS SUCH. ALL THE EIGHTEEN SERVE THE SINGLE PURPOSE" TO BETHAT.Personally, I do not to the popular acceptance that eachyoga or path can have their own credits. They have credits only inunison with the rest in my appreciation. Any yoga practiced rightlyautomatically incorporates the rest - from this perspective, each isCOMPLETE in itself as well. As far as The Truth at the pedestal ofone's presence, anything is fine and everything is fine becauseanything and everything floods toward THAT.If you have any specific question/objection to this, pl. feel freeexpress the same. I will attempt to address as I can.Respects.Naga Narayana-----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGBrother Naga Narayana says the question is redundant, it is not.Journeyman faces the problem which Sadhana to do to reach the goal.once you reach the goal then and then only QUESTION becomesredundant. here are some more thoughts for your consideration andcomments:IS THERE ONLY ONE RIGHTWAY TO GOD?Lord Krishna has been talking about both manifest and unmanifestaspects of God in the previous chapters. Arjun's question has beenanswered in great detail in this chapter, but people still arguethat one method of worship or certain religious practices are betterthan others. Such persons only understand half the truth. In ouropinion, it is quite clear that the method of worship depends on thenature of the individual. The person or the person's guru shouldfind out which path will be most suitable for the individual,depending on the person's temperament. To force his or her ownmethod of worship on people is the greatest disservice a guru can doto disciples. The important thing is to develop faith in and love ofGod. Godhas the power to manifest before a devotee in any form, regardlessof thedevotee's chosen form of worship.What has worked for one may not work for all. There was no need forthe Lord todiscuss different paths of yoga if there was one path for all. Ifthe chosenpath of spiritual discipline does not give one peace or God-realization, then itmust be understood that one is not practicing correctly or the pathis not rightfor the individual.Hari Om Roy-------------------------------Sir,To represent the things in scientific ways,I like to say that'It is now a fact that chemical rexs can create electric egergy andeectric flow is result of oxidation,i.e. electron formation.In humanbody also this simple system leads to energy and life.So,smadhimeans actually to control a reaction or control the generation ofelectrons.Naturally it can lead to more life but of courst,providedthe chemical rex also is controlled,but not stopped.So,by limitingintake and smadhi can increase life,but also decreases the currentto work.So,gita is now a base for science facts.Regards,sayal123-----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGHari OmNo ! Samadhi is certainly not a necessary condition for Moksha-the "mineness" - an exclusive "mineness" with Paramatma is however adesirable requirement for liberation. In fact, disconnection withinert is essential condition for Liberation- whether that comesthrough Karma Yoga or Jnana Yoga. For Bhakti Yoga , Mineness withParamatma is essential.There is one more type of Samadhi- called "Sahaj Samadhi". That isnecessary end result of liberation.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-------------------------------This a question filled with contradictions and inconsistencies.Neither Samadhi is a condition nor Moksha a target.State where no conditions can raise from, where no conditions cansurvive and where all the conditions are completely obliterated isSamadhi.State where no targets can emerge from, where no targets can persistand where all the targets are completely annihilated is Moksha.They are synanmous to each other where there cannot be any necessityor requirement as such.Therefore, this question is redundant in itself for me.Respects.Naga Narayana.----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadaks,Bhagavan has said to Arjuna, "When I (GOD) am in front why you wantto know about all this knowledge". Samadhi levels, different typesof yogas, Etc is not necessary when Bhagavan comes to you. Buddhi +yoga = Buddhi yoga. So there is prefix Buddhi to yoga. So also inother cases. But for Bakthi (worship, devotion, love of God) thereis no prefix. Why? Because Bakthi is crown of all spiritualpractices. Bakthi is unconditional constant and No change in anycondition in love towards GOD. Besides what Bakthi makes? All yogasand samadhi levels in the world put together is practice to silencethe mind from totally to remove Vasanas. This type of practices byone` s effort. So Bhagavan just remains witness to see how far youcan succeed. Bhagavan has clearly said in Geetha that by Yoga or byTapas (austerities) one can reach HIM after serveral births.Bhagavan in same Geetha has also clearly said that HE can liberate aperson in one single (same Jalma) by HIS Sankalpa (resolve, vow).Does it not seem contradictory? NO. First instance you are makingSankalpa (will, resolve, intentions) to reach HIM. Whereas in secondinstance Bagavan is making HIS sankalpa (resolve) to liberate you.Simple Example: 1) Finite is trying to reach infinite. (2) Infiniteis trying to pull finite. Which will succeed? In prakuthi also Masscan attract molecule. Bagavan has said that HE takes care of HISbhakta (devotees), if bhakta fails in his attempt. Bagavan hasgiven a designation as "Yoga Brasta" to such soul failed in bakthi(worship and devotion).In Sri Ranga Mahatyiyam script, mother Lakshmi points out to abhakta saying that he is doing mistakes. Bhagavan immediately saysto mother Lakshmi, "Here after YOU take care of YOUR baktha and I(Bagavan) will take care of MY baktha". One can see from scriptsthat yogis are subjected to abuse and torcher. Where as Bakthas areimmediately rescued by Bagavan. When Bagavan has said in simpleterms, "Surrender to ME", means love (Bhakti) why ponder over manythings.Lastly the cat story of doing certain practices is Gift from Bagavanto animals alone called Instinct. We humans have No instinct and thegift of intellect from God is unused.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan------------------------In our religion, the first 25 years are spent in learning, next 25in married life, next 25 in religious activities with one's spouseand the last 25 in sanyas. This is the time when one is free fromworldly duties and can totally concentrate(dhyan) or meditate andbecome one with the Self and attain Nirvikalp samadhi and moksha orliberation from the endless cycle of birth and death. There areother paths like Karm yog and Gyan yog also but these take time.Hari Shanker Deo--------------------------dear sadaks,Nirvikalpa samadhi etc are difficult tasks which are performed byyogis. Vasanas cannot go that easily. But short cut is Bakthi Marg.In this Marg Bagavan comes to you rather than you searching HIM.Examples: Bagavan came to numerous saints, played with them, livedwith them, protected them Baktha Gora, Purander Doss, Tukaram,Pundalikan, Sakubai, Meera bai etc etc. These saints underwentsufferings (which we feel) but they hardly knew what was happening.Bakthi is surrender. Easy and simple way. Here your effort is Zero.In samadhi level your effort is maximum.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan----------------------------Hari Om.I saw a kitten in my friend's house today.It had lost its mother soon after it was born.It never knew that it was a kitten and left alone.without any observation or company of a cat, it does exactlywhat a cat does.To pass stool it dug a pit and pushed the mud back after passingstool.Now tell me who taught it to behave like a cat?Its the impression of the brain that was formed when it was in itsmother's womb.The same way all of act according to the impressions that are in ourbrain from the day we entered our mother's womb.This way we carry the good and bad deeds of previous birthwhen we enter our mother's womb.The karma cycle starts here for this birth.For the good deeds we get comfort and for the bad deeds wegetdiscomfortand misery.MOKSHA IS THE PROCESS BY WHICH WE RELIEVE URSELVESFROM THIS CYCLE OF KARMA.This can be attained only by doing Sadhana.Ths Sadhana takes us to SAMADHI.Samadhi is the state where our soul light removes our karma.This is the TRUTH OF GEETHA TOLD BY KRUSHNA IN KAPILA CHARITHRAM.THis is known as Shankya Yoga in GEETHA.with regards,Usha sridhar----------------------------Yogiraj Madhvacarya's Response (Posted by HariOm Roy for the benefitof the group)It is a fact that unless one reaches into the causal body and worksat it on the causal plane, one cannot completely eradicate thevasanas. Gita has given the path of buddhi yoga in chapter two,especially in the last portion of chapter two as the solution andinstead of nirvikalpa, we get the term brahmanirvanam.Gita enunciated two paths as karma yoga and jnana yoga. The path ofjnana yoga has within it the potential to attain the eradications ofthe vasanas, but in my opinion the path of karma yoga will notremove the vasanas but will remove most of the inconvenient orundesirable vasanas.If someone does not see that the path of jnana yoga and particularlythe buddhi yoga techniques discussed by Sri Krishna as containingthe solution of the problem of the vasanas, it means that the persondoes not understand the Sanskrit terms and is giving those termsinsufficient meanings.But in that case if one goes to the Uddhava Gita, one will get amore in-depth and detailed instruction for that jnana yoga and thenone's doubts about Gita should be removed.Buddhi yoga as given in Bhagavad Gita is a practice which was taughtby Sri Krishna to both the jnana yogis and the karma yogis. Karmayogis students like Arjuna got that skill through the practice ofelementary meditation yoga and with that psychological proficiency,they applied this to their life in the cultural world, aspoliticians, state officials and state warriors. The proficiency ofthis for a karma yogi shows by his detachment when punishing andimpartiality when dealing with citizens. Thus Krishna requestedArjuna to exhibit the buddhi yoga proficient on the battlefield ofKurukshetra, just as Janak and other legendary kings did in theVedic history.Basically speaking the meditative yoga practice of those karma yogisended with this buddhi yoga and its result in their life washighlighted by their detachment and impartially.First we begin by defining yoga and to do so we must go toPatanjali. He gave us an eight (8) part system which become knownalso as Ashtanga yoga.Thus bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga. Buddhi yoga is buddhi+yoga. Jnanayoga is jnana+yoga. Atma yoga is atma+ yoga and so on. In this waywe will be clear when we use these terms. Now if we agree thatbhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga, then what is bhakti? The answer isthat bhakti is bhakti. The next question is : Can someone reachperfection by bhakti alone.. And the answer is that scriptures giveus examples of persons who did just that, persons like the gopis.Then there is another question, why do yoga and then apply it tobhakti if one can reach perfection by bhakti alone. The answer isobvious, that it would be foolish to do yoga and apply bhakti if youcan reach perfection by bhakti alone. Therefore we accept that onlythose who will fail at bhakti by itself should do yoga and then dobhakti.But then there is another question as to why even bother with yoga .The answer to that is given by Sri Krishna when he defined thepurpose of yoga as atmavishuddha in Chapter 6 verse 12.Therefore if one finds that his or her bhakti is not gettingperfection, that person may do yoga for purification of the psyche(atma), the psychological energies. Then when yoga is successful inthat purpose, he or she can apply bhakti and get the desired success.Buddhi yoga? What is that?That is the application of yoga practice to curbing and purifyingthe intellect, the buddhi. It has to do with that one aspect only,the buddhi. It concerns nothing else. It is the process of curbingthe buddhi by meditational techniques.The mastership of the 5th pratyahar stage of yoga and the beginningpractice of the 6th dharana stage concerns buddhi yoga, the curbingand subjugation of the buddhi organ in the subtle body.The difficulty with implementing the removal of the vasanas, has todo with the deficiency of the human being. This deficiency comesfrom the natural way which is to focus into the gross plane ofexistence. Due to that we have no accurate knowledge or experienceof the subtle existence. And to make matters worse, the causal planeis even more abstract than the subtle level.How many of us are willing to take up a sadhana which would cause anincrease in subtle perception? How many of us would make that ourtop priority to do whatever would be necessary to shut down most ofour physical interest and to put our attention over to the subtleside.I feel this is our impediment.The causal level, which has within it the seed energies (bija) ofthe vasanas, cannot be reached until we develop very subtleperception. How can you affect something which you can neither seenor feel. So first we have to get subtle vision then super subtlevision then we can tackle the root energies of the vasanas whichinfluence and dominate us on this level.From this physical plane we cannot eradicate the vasanas becausetheir supportive and motivational roots are coming from the causallevel. We can however limited their main manifestation if we applystrong moral principles in an attempt to restrict vices and promotea righteous lifestyle (dharma).Over time of practicing dharma, one develops some resistance to someof the very gross and vulgar vasanas. From this one develops astrength to challenge the motivational forces, and then graduallyone develops introspection and moves into higher yoga practice. Thuskarma yoga serves as a stepping stone to jnana yoga which is thepractice for directly challenging the vasanas first in the subtlebody and then at their rooting on the causal plane.One easy way to understand the difference between nirvikalpa andsavikalpa samadhi is through the example of one electric circuitwhich has only a light bulb and another circuit which has a lightbulb and a meter.The electric supply or generator would serve as representing God orrepresenting the supreme brahman, while the bulb and its littlecircuit presents the jiva or yogi. When we plug the circuit into theelectric supply, the light glows, because it is connected to thatpower..In the second example there is a meter attached to the bulb ,whereby when the circuit is plugged in, the bulb glows but the meteralso registers a certain quality of current.In the first example the bulb gets the full current and is fullycharged with the supreme power, while in the second example onlysome of the current is used by the bulb since the meter whichmeasures the current, absorbs some of the electric force.Thus in the second example the yogi's mind which measures andanalyzes the power which flows from the Supreme, causes a reductionin his contact with the Supreme power.The advantage of the first example is that the yogi gets to feel thefull supreme power, while in the second example the yogi cannotexperience the full power but is better able to describe hisexperience because he was able to measure the intensity of thesupreme power/In the first example, after the samadhi the yogi might say, "Iexperience it but there is no way that I can describe it to you. Itwas fully subjective. It was not objective. It was like: I was itand it was me."In the second case the yogi might say, " I measured it as Iexperienced it. I will describe it to you. I was objective to it.Madhavacharya (Michael Beloved)----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGShree Hari:Ram Ram.Please correct the misconcept that Holy Gita is insufficient byreading and assimilating verse 66 of chapter 18. What is Moksh? Whatis Mukti? What is Nirvan? What is Realization of Self? All these arebeyond body mind mechanism whereas samadhi of any type or kind iswithin it and ends with vyutthaan.please be specific as to how and where Gita is found insufficient.Thanks and Regards,Sarvottam----------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Just a quick observation on Divakaranji's post.Sure, it is a great worship when whatever we do as Krishnaarpanam.Such sustained worshiping attitude can lead one to Moksha becausethe highest one can offer(arpana to Krishna) is oneself-ego in totalsurrender!But Moksha or Mukti is not a matter of individual perception, ratherfreedom from Individuality itself! Moksha is when "individual" isseen as illusion, and all his/her perceptions including "I am anindividual with this body-mind" dissolves into THAT which IS! It isthe only Reality/Atman/Brahman/God and cannot be perceived(by mind)because IT perceives everything, even mind-body-world.Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGMy dear Sadhak Gurujan,When whatever we do is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itselfconstitutes worship. Whether Moksha or Mukti is thus achieved is amatter of individual perception.Subbanarasu Divakaran----------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!In my seeing, it is the most important that one realizes what onetruly IS!, not as one thinks or believes one is! Samadhi as Iunderstand it, is a state which comes and goes, so "we" cannot besuch a state. We are THAT whatever THAT may be, in which such statescome and go, but we don't ever come or go as Consciousness!Upon investigation we may discover that such state as savikalpasamadhi arises in our Consciousness (which is also our Beingness) inmeditation while focusing on God or breath etc., and when samadhistate leaves us it goes back to same Consciousness just as wavearising and vanishing back to ocean(water really). We know "we" areOcean of Consciousness even when waves arise or vanish.Nirvikalpa samadhi is when Consciousness is devoid of objectsexperienced only as thoughts in mind and sensations/feelings inbody. In otherword, Consciousness being Conscious of ITSELF,liberating from limitations of objects.Due to desires, vaasanas, attachments etc one is constantly occupiedby objects of perceptions and/or feelings such as anger, jealousy,envy etc, samadhi state is not manifest as Consciousness isidentified with such objects.When understanding takes place through inquiy, contemplations,meditation(if one has inclination to path of Gyan), then onerealizes one is not body-mind based separate person, and samadhihappens naturally. When samadhi state happens naturally regardlessof presence ot abscence of objects as perceptions, conceptions,arising in Consciousness, Consciousness is liberated and a state ofSahaj samadhi happens. (Many saints such as Ramana Maharshi,Ramkrishna Paramhansa were in such a state while being engaged inactivities, as I know).It is apperception meaning Consciousness being conscious of Itself(Sat-Chit-Ananda swarupa) rather than objects, in all situations.(Like wave now knows it is really water even as it appears to bewave from the mind's perspective).Such realization is of primary importance, and samadhi state may bean indication only.It is equally possible to realize this by total Devotion, or beingengaged in selfless Karma within guidelines of Dharma. In suchpursuits Grace is bestowed upon Sadhakas by Bhgwaan. Bliss, Love,Peace, Harmony, Intelligence, Beauty manifest in life of such asadhaka which is the same experience of oneness as narrated byrealized ones or Bhagwaan's devotees!To summarize, it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neitheris the only path to liberation! Realization through spiritualsadhana with predominence of Self-inquiry, Devotion, or Karma-Yogacan lead to ultimate Grace! One knows undoubtedly ONE isConsciousness(Chit), which is Impersonal Being(sat), and thereforeis at the same time Fullness-Bliss(Anada)!Namaskar.....Pratap Bhatt-----------------------------Moksha need not neccesarily by Yoga or become a brahma gnani toreleased from cycle of life, in Krishna clearly says easiest way toattain nirvana is thru true love towards him, thru gnana and yogathe yogi or upasaka should fix a time to leave this itself requireslot of knowledge and takes many births.So when easily gnana moksha is available why to go for toughestthing.But a good food contains all items Dhyana is neccessary along withBhakthi to attain the goal.But any one who has read the Gita easily can understand and manageboth.MANY HAVE DOUBTS WHEN KRIHNA SAYS BHAKTHI TAKES U TO MOKSHA THE EASYWAY AND ALSO MENTIONS TO CONCENTRATE ON HIM(dhyana) AND ALSO MENTIONSTO KARMA YOGA.WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND WE SHOULD PLAY MUTIPLE MARGAS (path) TO ATTAINMOKSHA (salvation).PLEASE READ GITA BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION ASK URSELF ASK LORD INSIDEYOU.Shapur Shiva-------------------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubtsrelated to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which furtherclarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures tosubstantiate your response.3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respectingsadhaka's time.5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.6. Please do not include links to the other sites or otherorganizations.7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phonenumber, address etc.8. Please do not address the response to a particular individualsince the message is going to the entire group.9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if contentis unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskritwords only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketedwherever possible.MODERATORRam Ram------------------------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

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Shree HariRam RamWe are clearing up pending queue this week due to significant backlog. ONLY REPLY IF NOT ALREADY COVERED by other sadhaksFrom Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------------------------------HARIOM,

Proponents of Dhyana Yoga (Yoga of Meditation)say one must attainNivikalp samadhi (a very difficult task for most people) tocompletely eradicate the VASANAS (desires, passions, impressionsremaining in the mind) from the causal body. Thus they express thatany one of the other paths of the Holy Gita is not a sufficientcondition for mukti (liberation, benediction, release from rebirthin the world, emancipation). Please remove my doubts completely andin detail.

Hari Om Roy----------------------------NEW POSTING

Hi,

To the best of my understanding 'Dhi' in Sanksrit is 'knowledge' Sama means Equal. Equal knowledge. A state when one becomes one with brahman, equal in consciousness, knowledge,awareness of one's own existence, is Samadhi. This is not bodily attained. Moksha is not for the body. The knowledge mentioned is not worldly knowledge also.

 

Geetaji says in Chapter 5 : Labhante brahma nirvanam rishaya ksheena kalmasha

Chinnadwaita yadatmnaha sarvabhutha hite ratha:

 

On this fast rotating globe details of existence is detailed in geetaji for our reference.

 

Krishnadasan

----------

Hari OmSadhak Shri Narsimhan ! Self never ceases to exist! False and assumed Ego ceases to exist ! Self only remains ! Self is Truth ! Self is Paramatma ! Can Paramatma cease to exist? Self is avinaashi (imperishable) ! What any type of Samadhi has got to do with that which is permanent/imperishable ? How can it cease? It can at the most become what it actually is- Paramatma ! Consciousness! How it can cease? Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Sadhak HariOm Roy has raised a pertinent point

My understanding of Gita and other scriptures relating to

Sel-realisation is that NIRVIKALPA SAMADHI IS THE

STATE when the SELF CEASES to exist.

It is a state of experiencing and not an experience. The

Latter state implies an experiencer (the self) and the experience.

srl narasimhan

-----------------

Hari Om

Regarding the fresh Question of Sadhak Hari Om Roy, I may state that the "Samadhi" has not been stated anywhere to be the ONLY eradicator of VAASANAS from the causal body. On the contrary, it is in Dhyaan Yoga only that a person is allowed to carry desires with him till the end. In fact, many of the people have the object of getting "siddhis" ( Super-natural powers) out of concentration of mind and out of Samadhi. Gita has identified many other methods of getting desireless and so have other Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. Therefore, it is not a correct statement that one get desireless only through Samadhi and through no other means. As stated , reverse is the case, as in Samadhi state till the end one can retain subtle desires , which desires catapult , if the yogi so wants, into "siddhis" ! Moreover, even for Dhyaan Yogis, in the end, the disconnection with inert is essential condition for MOKSHA. That disconnection with inert, is certainly more easily attained through Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga or Bhakti Yogas stated in Holy Gita. Even Lord Krishna has stated in Holy Gita that to master Dhyaan Yoga is a very difficult task ( as compared with other yogas say Karma or Bhakti Yoga). Hence the advice given to you by certain people is not a correct advice and is not supported by Holy Gita.

Hope this clarifies the query fully.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------

Dear SadhakIn short Moksha is available through many processes as narrated in our scriptures.One of them way to achieve is to get Moksha throguh the process of meditartion. In this meditation practice first comes concentration,then Samadhi and final we got an opportunity to seek Moksha.Samadhi is such a word that it come every stage of moksha.When We recite Bhajans,we are so much engrossed that our mind is in the stage of Samadhi This is what I experience in my offering of prayers everyday.How you feel about my short experience in life Contributed by a Brahmin eighty five years old.Truly yours Shankerprasad S Bhatt-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,There were so many Bakthas who got liberated living within thefamily detached. They did nothing for Samadhi, which is only forYogis who renounced everything and went to forest.baiya Sathyanarayan-----------------------

the self is perfect .............

perfect, this moment now ...........

nothing needs being done

all is as it is designed to be,

designed, ordained, created by God, Nature, orExistence ............

there is no need for any trnasformation in being ...............

the above is the truth of truths, my friends, yes it is !!

and yet,

unless it becomes narinder's truth, he continues to live with afeeling " I am suffering"

thus begins a new search for a state of mind , which is free fromsuffering .

this state of freedom is called No Mind ( or ego).

that state you would reach only through ' watching' of your ownconduct; Meditation leads us to that state of ' watching,witnessing ........ '

every day, every single day, routine lives are lived, beginning fromthe point, where we may be at that point of time.

It cannot be otherwise.

try and realise the immensity of this truth above. It is not thatwe need to acquire anything new in our being …… but that we needto free ourselves from those concepts and conditionings of the Mindthat eclipse our inner purity of being .

From this flows, ( if Grace alights ) the understanding that thereis a need to include in our day to day life, " The sadhna ofdeliberate effort, to give a direction to our present being, to freethe Mind( de-eclipse our being) from Fear, Pain, and Delusion, thecause of the feeling that ' I am suffering' .... "

All the BUDDHAS show us the Way of how to de-eclipse the mind.

We, who are on the Path .... the path of paths ...........we need to be eternally vigilant for lapses in our own conduct, inday to day life. We need to ' watch ' our own behaviour. We needto' keep judging' ourselves.......................

....................judging ourselves ....................withoutcondemnation of our own selves ( for this could lead todepression ), .......................and without justifyingourselves ( this leads to spiritual arrogance, and literally stopsour ability to bring about any transformation in our being ) .

When the False is seen as False, it drops by itself …..and we moveone step closer to the Silence of Meditation.

Bhagvada Geetha it is that tells each one of us what conduct(dharma, and swa-dharma) de-eclipses the Mind ..... as also how toattain the wisdom and strength( understanding) for the same.

narinder bhandari

----------------------------PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!There are many opinions and beliefs surrounding Samadhi, varioustypes of it and is or is not necessary for Mukti.I want to share simple approach to understand it based on experiencewe all have.1) When I-me sense, so dominating throughout the life, is lost in anobject because that object is so attractive, such as watching aninteresting movie, playing a game, witnessing a beautiful sunset orsunrise, chanting mantra, or meditating, it is possible thatconsciousness of "me" is temporarily forgotten/lost. At the timethere is only witnessing, not "me" witnessing objects, and hencethere is joy beyond mind and senses, however, temporary it may be.I call this Savikalpa samadhi, but sense of "me" returns after thestate is over.2) When there are no perceived objects, attractive or otherwise inconsciousness, consciousness turns inward to itself, so to speak,being conscious of itself and nothing else, sense of "me" has gonefor some time. There is peace/bliss.I call this Nirvikalpa Samadhi, but sense of "me" though weaker thanbefore, returns.3) When Consciousness remains conscious of itself even whenperceived objects are present or absent and cannot takeConsciousness away from Itself, so to speak, there is only Non-dualExistence experientially present. All objects or their absence areseen as Consciousness only. All is thus Vasudev sarvam.I call this Sahaj samadhi, our realized nature! This is really Muktiitself, if it is truly one's experience, and not self-deception.If samadhi is a state, then it just comes and goes, and hence is notwhat we are!One can label any ways one likes, but it is the experientialrealization of Being always free of all identifications, and beingUndivided Wholeness, Blissfulness, That is Mukti or liberation. Itis the Freedom from sense of "me" and therefore "others". The momentsense of "me" arises, it separates us, our beingness-consciousnessinto many, and thus each of such apparant "many" feels lack,incompleteness within him/her and desire to fulfil, to become Wholethrough objects giving rise to suffering. Some Objects are taken togive us happiness temporarily, which fools us from looking withinand realizing "we" are and always will be Free!Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt------------------------------Namaskar to All,

Reading the life of Saints, we will find that Siddhis (miracles) arepresented from the Birth.Why are they born again ? Very obvious: They have developedthemselves for these siddhis through different Yog. Weren't theyselfish ? We see in the Next life, they Serve (Seva) and reachMoksha (salvation).Bhakti Yog has some of it, but Raj Yog combines all.--Regards

Swapan PURKAYASTHA--------------------------------

Shree HariRam Ram

SUMMARY TO DATE - SADHAK RESONSES-

Liberation (Freedom) is releasing that which we have grabbed hold offLiberation is very easy as freedom is the true nature of SELFSo to become free, mukta, no need for any samadhi.Samadhi is a state of the kaaran sharir that is connected to nature.Disconnection with inert is essential condition for Liberation-Mineness with Paramatma is essential. "Sahaj Samadhi" isnecessary end result of liberation. What is Mukti? Moksha? Nirvan?Self Realization? All are beyond body mind mechanism whereas samadhiof any type or kind is within it and ends with vyutthaan (rising).Eternal attachment with God treating samadhi, siddhis as tucha(small, insignificant) is true liberation or moksha.Bhagavan says - What you want to know when I am in front of you.In Dyana yoga, Sahaja Yoga etc. easy to slip; can take several birthsBy becoming God's, He personally takes responsibility for mokshaAny yoga practiced rightly automatically incorporates the rest. Eachis COMPLETE in itself as well. Anything and everything floods towardTHAT. Method of worship depends on the nature of the individual.important thing is to develop faith in and love of God. God has thepower to manifest before a devotee in any form, regardless of thedevotee's chosen form of worship. Samadhi = to control a reactionor control a generation of electrons. gita is now a base for sciencefacts. Neither Samadhi is a condition nor Moksha a target. Statewhere no targets can emerge from, where no targets can persist andwhere all the targets are completely annihilated is Moksha.Selfless service key for moksha.Samadhi or Mukti is the natural state, ever present.Bhagavan said , "When I (GOD) am in front why you want to know aboutall this knowledge" i.e. Samadhi levels, different types of yogas,etc. is not necessary when Bhagavan comes to you. Bakthi is crown ofall spiritual practices. "Surrender to ME", means love (Bhakti).Nirvikalpa samadhi etc are difficult. Short cut is Bakthi Marg.Moksha is the process by which we relieve ourselves from the cycleof karma. This is done through sadhana - Sankhya Yoga.Moksha is when "individual" with this body-mind" dissolves into THATwhich IS! Reality/Atman/Brahman/God and cannot be perceived(by mind)because IT perceives everything, even mind-body-world. whatever wedo is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itself constitutes worship.Moksha or Mukti is a matter of individual perceptionKrishna says - easiest way to attain nirvana is thru true lovetowards Him. Even Samadhi state comes and goes. We (Self) is beyondthat. it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neitheris it the only path to liberation!Experiential realization of Being always free of allidentifications, and being Undivided Wholeness, Blissfulness, Thatis Mukti or liberation. It is the Freedom from sense of "me" andtherefore "others".

From Gita Talk Moderators-----------------------------

pRIY SADHAKsamadhi is state if kaaran sharir which is again connected to nature.Understanding self is ultimatepl follow itthanxraja gurdasani

----------------------RAM RAM

sajjan shri,

Swamiramsukhdasji in his "Sadhak-Sanjeevani"(Shreemadhbhagvadgita)says that, stages like samadhi or siddhi is also material. Thesestages can get destroyed by senses even if one attains them.So "Sahaj yoga" is recommended ie in God or Ram or Shri Krishnaconsciousness to practice karmas . For moksha if samadhi gets khandit(broken) with time or senses after samadhis attainment , one thenrealises futility of such conditions (samadhi siddhi) because theyare material conditions.

Eternal attachement with god treating samadhi, siddhis as tucha(small, insignificant) is true liberation or moksha, because samadhisiddhi dont liberate even mukti may not be possible by samadhisiddhi what to tell of moksha.

Just living in god told way of bhavatgita is enough. You will getmoksha. And to get mokhsa complete surrendering to god Krishnaji isenough without desiring even moksha mukti, any greed or lust, is anecessary. THe spirit of Meerabai ie "Mera to girdhar Gopal Doosarona koi". By "Koi" is not accepting any dependence on anythingmaterial is spirit of surrenderring and in that stage you will getultimate peace or Moksha.

Yours truly,Kalrav Pande-------------------------Dear Sadaks and eminent Sanskrit scholars kindly give your commentswith explanation very briefly for the below;VADHANTHU SASTRANI,YAJANTHU DEVANI,KURVANTHU KARMANI,BAJANTHU DEVATHAYAHA,ATHUMA AAIKIYA BOTHENA,VANAHI MUKTHI----NHASIDHYATE,BHRAMA SATANTRA REPINE.

The above meaning co relates to Bagavan in Geetha saying toArjuna, " What you want to know when I (Bagavan) is in front of you.Similarly in Geetha Bagavan says in one instance "Moodhaha"(Ignorant people). Again this also relates to Bikshu Geetha Bagavandelivered.Crisp answer will make a reader understand better.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan---------------------------

Dear Hariji,

Nirvikalp or Savikalp are two different images captured in one'smind - pl. note that both are based on the vikalp, a mental choice.The Samadhi or mukti where such images are not needed on one handand cannot stay on the other hand is ever existent. For the sake ofconversational convenience, we often refer this state as Nirvikalp.We should be cognizant that even the "nirvikalpatva" as perceived bymind looses its presence just like the "savikalpatva" in suchnatural presence.

As I see, Samadhi or Mukti is ever-present every-where. Samadhi orMukti is the natural state of all and therefore cannot becharacterized in any manner. Due to our preceptional ignorance andexistential inertia fuelled perptually by experiential desire-fearcluster, we perpetually imagine to be not in THAT! One who realizeshas just cleared this opaqueness within ... you can call suchrealization "Nirvikalpa" or "Nirvana" or "Sthitapragnyaa" orEquanimity etc., no problem as far as they retain no significance inthemselves, as far as they do not become a concept (vikalpa) inone's mind.

Once a desciple approaches Buddha to say he attained "emptyness" inhis mind. Buddha slaps him hard ... "That emptyness is filling yourmind! Emoty that as well!!" The mind has this terrible tendency tomake a vikalpa of everything ... even the nirvikalpatva or samadhior mukti ... My caution is toward that tendency ... not otherwise.However you call or address THAT, THAT remains what IT IS.

Whether Mukti is one time or not is self-evident from the above. ITnever occurs since IT is ever present. IT can not be handled likeanything else perceived e.g. having it once, twice, thrice, etc. Infact, one can never "have" THAT ... but one can always "be" THAT ...rather everything "is" always THAT. I would say every one receivesthe warmth from THAT every moment for the sheer existence. Mosthave no clue of that; few imagine that; very few attain thatknowledgibly; very very few remain THERE as such ... the oftennessis applicable to our ignorance and inertia - how often we break theopaqueness of our ignorance and inertia is countable; NOT THAT!

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

 

 

 

 

------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhak,What is Moksha and what is Bandhan ?

A story(this is how a monkey is caught)-There are some chickpeas in a container. The mouth of the containeris very narrow. A monkey comes, sees the peas, put its hand in thecontainer and grab peas in his fist. Now it wants to take its handout from the container, but it cannot. Why ? so obvious. What itneed to do to get its hand out ? so obvious, just open the fist andlet the peas go. But no,no matter how hard he tries, he cannot takehis hand out.Similarly we have grabbed this sansar/jagat. as soon as wedisconnect our selves with this sansar, we are free, Mukta.Swamiji says - mukti sahaj hai(Liberation is easy). Bandhan mana huahai(Bondage is adopted). Because freedom is the true nature of SELF.So to become free, mukta, no need for any samadhi. Swamiji oftensays a highly evolved sadhak who has attained many siddhis may havegreat experiences, he may wander different planes but its notnecessary that he will attain moksha.

with Love,a SadhikaSadhna Karigar------------------------------YES, Brother Naga Narayana, you said it so nicely:"Any yoga practiced rightlyautomatically incorporates the rest - from this perspective, each isCOMPLETE in itself as well. "

here is another subset of the original question: ALL SADHANAS MUSTCULMINATE IN NIRVIKALP SAMADHI BEFORE MUKTI IS POSSIBLE ? in otherwords, if one has not attained nirvikalp state, then one has a longway to go? then another Question arises: is this samadhi a one timedeal or one has to be always or most of the time in that state?

Hari Om Roy

------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

Dyana yoga, Sahaja Yoga etc are same yoga prefixing Dyana(meditation) to yoga. This is like God over Sahastra Nama, buteventually GOD is one. Gowtham Rishi, Vasista, Viswamitra and somany failed in yoga. In yoga the effort to be put is totallycleansing the mind through out one` s life. Persons who succeededsometime fails, like the above stated Rishis at one part in theirlives. That is why Bagavan in Geetha says by Yoga one to reach HIMmay take several births. But becoming God's, developing a lovingrelationship with Him, even while being in family, amidst societyand the world, living dharmic way as per the sastras, Godpersonally takes responsibility for such devotees and makes certainthat there is NO slippage from getting liberated.

Examples are many but few are being shared here:Baktha Gora, pot maker accidentally stamped his son while meditatingon Panduranga. His wife in Anger said not to touch her. He remainedso for years. His wife married her sister to have issue to them.But on wedding day the father in law promised to Gora to treat his2cd daughter as he would treat his 1st wife. Gora said to his 2cdwife on first night, that her elder sister was aloof from him andso she also to remain aloof as promised by his father in law.Having 2 wives Gora was singing and dancing in Bakthi without leastthought of senses. Wives one night touched hands of Gora who slained his hands to keep up promise. God Panduranga came down as aservant Rangan and worked in his house. Same was with NeelakandaNayanar Shiva Baktha where Bagavan Shiva came down to him. Bagavaneven touched and washed the feet of Kuchela for his love. Bagavaneven did shaving to King Badhusha on behalf of his Baktha. Bagavanran to save elephant Gajendra. What Prahalad did- Nava Rasa Bakthiand Bagavan was always with him. For a cobbler (whose house even today exits) in Panderpur Bagavan stitched slipper for business. For ahousewife Sakubai, Bagavan took the form of Sankubai to fullfil herdesire to go to Panderpur and Bagavan was acting as Sakubai in herhouse as servant. Sakubai dies in the temple when she is overwhelmedseeing Moorthy Panduranga in the temple. She was cremated. ButBagavan Shiva raises her to life from ashes. One can visit her housein Gopalpur even today. A lady by name Poogodhai was raised to lifefrom Hasti (Ashes of Poogodhai) right in presence of public in atemple Kabaleesvar- Mylapore in Chennai by a saint Thiru GynaSambather.

Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan-----------------------------Respected Hari Om Roy,

Appreciate your remarks. Following is what revolves around in me atthis point

Dhyana "The intellect established in focus on an object forappreciation Yoga "Absolute UnisonDhyana Yoga " Appreciation (of anything) in Absolute Unison

Dhyana yoga is a self-sufficient phrase as Bhagavan Vyaasa puts itforward in the first place.

Being pulled apart from two polarities in our existence "individualand universe"we qualify this unique concept further:

Aatma Dhyana Yoga " Self Appreciation Brahma Dhyana Yoga" UniversalAppreciation

The inertially ignorant mind cannot fathom anything but an object(Vishaya) and its image in its senses (Indriyas) and hence gravitatesall suggestions to the same Vishayendriya cluster (sensorial imagesof object)and hence looses the Absolute Unison intended in the firstplace. Often, it is diluted to the perceived duo "vishaya andindriya.

Vishaya Dhyana Yoga: Absolute appreciation of any object is enough.Even " the letter, the pronunciation, the sound, the shape, thesyllable, its medium, its source, its destiny, its constitution, itscomposites, etc." is enough. If it is too simple … Aum … OmkaraDhyana. Vishaya Dhyana in its purity tends toward Brahma Dhyana.

Indriya Dhyana Yoga: Absolute appreciation of any sense is alsosensible enough. Just an utterance is enough to pace toward theabsolute through the same sensory signal in truthful pursuit asKrishna says very often in Gita - Indriyaaneendriyaartheshu. Thesame Omkara helps to traverse inward as well. Indriya Dhyana in itspurity tends toward Aatma Dhyana.

The intended Dhyana Yoga becomes Dhyana Roga as the partial, lopsidedand wishful appreciation of oneself (subject) as well as the objects(and their images in terms of actions, thoughts and desires) aroundincreases. Neither the subject (Aatman) nor the object (Brahman) isappreciated in Absolute Unison. The subject is appreciated in termsofobjectional images and the objects are appreciated in terms ofsubjective desires, thoughts and actions. As such, there is nothingwrong in either vishaya or in indriya … but, the corruption is inourperception of the same.

On the other hand, dwelling in three apparent domains in threeinherent forms, we cannot but gravitate to one of the three clustersclosest to our nature "physical, perceptional and experiential worldsin terms of actions, thoughts and desires. Accordingly the sameDhyana Yoga isrecommend with alternative adjectives from different schools ofthoughts:

Aatma Dhyana Yoga "Experiential Appreciation in the domain of desires(aatma-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Gowdapada, Shankara, Ramana,…)Daiva Dhyana Yoga " Perceptional Appreciation in the domain ofthoughts (daiva-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Vallabha, Ramanuja,Madhva)Bhuta Dhyana Yoga " Existential Appreciation in the domain of actions(bhouta-pradhana-vada, to quote grossly, Chaarvaaka, and most of us)

When the focus is turned to a limited identity, practical difficultyof loosing the original intent is faced. We add another adjective toemphasize on the basis for each rather than the tip of the ice bergin eachdomain:

Aadhyaatma Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Experiential AppreciationAdhidaiva Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Perceptional AppreciationAdhibhuta Dhyana Yoga " Absolute Existential Appreciation

The above three are also often referenced as Bhakti Yoga, GnyaanaYoga, and Karma Yoga with variant overlaps on each other.

Details are added perpetually distinctions are made that are lost inthe heap of overlapping attributes we loose the understandingthat the real appreciation of anything is in its simplicity and notincomplexity nothing was required and nothing is required thehelpless mind needs some support as soon as it is given a choice, itfloods with its own images for its own sustenance.As Ramana puts it, the mind flies around chasing the smoke andfragrances dispersed from a sandle stick Dhyana is to push it to thesource of all smoke and fragrance around " the tip of the sandlestick it runs away we should bring it the focal point that is thegame DhyanaYoga! That is Karma Yoga, as well as Gnyaana Yoga as well as BhaktiYoga as wellas any other yoga all for ONE and ONLY ONE to be THAT. You can callit Samadhior Mukti or God or anything else.

Your observations are valid our pre-conditioned existence appears todrift in variant directions. The wisdom is to integrate thefragmented presence in all the domains of our existence "be itactions, orthoughts, or desires" concurrently. No multiple paths are prescribedin Gita tomy understanding. ONE HAS TO CLEANSE ONESELF IN ALL RESPECTS, IN ALLTHEEIGHTEEN DOMAINS IDENTIFIEDIN GITA! My understanding is to practice The Yoga in itscompleteness ratherthan in its fragment that appeals to me. Starting point is the same"Vishada andending point is the same " Moksha Sanyasa. Every yoga in between isa buildingblock to complete this puzzle for me. NONE OF THEM HAVE ANYINDEPENDENTEXISTENCE AS SUCH. ALL THE EIGHTEEN SERVE THE SINGLE PURPOSE" TO BETHAT.

Personally, I do not to the popular acceptance that eachyoga or path can have their own credits. They have credits only inunison with the rest in my appreciation. Any yoga practiced rightlyautomatically incorporates the rest - from this perspective, each isCOMPLETE in itself as well. As far as The Truth at the pedestal ofone's presence, anything is fine and everything is fine becauseanything and everything floods toward THAT.

If you have any specific question/objection to this, pl. feel freeexpress the same. I will attempt to address as I can.

Respects.

Naga Narayana

-----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGBrother Naga Narayana says the question is redundant, it is not.Journeyman faces the problem which Sadhana to do to reach the goal.once you reach the goal then and then only QUESTION becomesredundant. here are some more thoughts for your consideration andcomments:

IS THERE ONLY ONE RIGHT

WAY TO GOD?

Lord Krishna has been talking about both manifest and unmanifestaspects of God in the previous chapters. Arjun's question has beenanswered in great detail in this chapter, but people still arguethat one method of worship or certain religious practices are betterthan others. Such persons only understand half the truth. In ouropinion, it is quite clear that the method of worship depends on thenature of the individual. The person or the person's guru shouldfind out which path will be most suitable for the individual,depending on the person's temperament. To force his or her ownmethod of worship on people is the greatest disservice a guru can doto disciples. The important thing is to develop faith in and love ofGod. Godhas the power to manifest before a devotee in any form, regardlessof thedevotee's chosen form of worship.

What has worked for one may not work for all. There was no need forthe Lord todiscuss different paths of yoga if there was one path for all. Ifthe chosenpath of spiritual discipline does not give one peace or God-realization, then itmust be understood that one is not practicing correctly or the pathis not rightfor the individual.

Hari Om Roy

-------------------------------

Sir,To represent the things in scientific ways,I like to say that'It is now a fact that chemical rexs can create electric egergy andeectric flow is result of oxidation,i.e. electron formation.In humanbody also this simple system leads to energy and life.So,smadhimeans actually to control a reaction or control the generation ofelectrons.Naturally it can lead to more life but of courst,providedthe chemical rex also is controlled,but not stopped.So,by limitingintake and smadhi can increase life,but also decreases the currentto work.So,gita is now a base for science facts.Regards,sayal123

-----------------------------PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

No ! Samadhi is certainly not a necessary condition for Moksha-the "mineness" - an exclusive "mineness" with Paramatma is however adesirable requirement for liberation. In fact, disconnection withinert is essential condition for Liberation- whether that comesthrough Karma Yoga or Jnana Yoga. For Bhakti Yoga , Mineness withParamatma is essential.

There is one more type of Samadhi- called "Sahaj Samadhi". That isnecessary end result of liberation.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B-------------------------------

This a question filled with contradictions and inconsistencies.

Neither Samadhi is a condition nor Moksha a target.

State where no conditions can raise from, where no conditions cansurvive and where all the conditions are completely obliterated isSamadhi.

State where no targets can emerge from, where no targets can persistand where all the targets are completely annihilated is Moksha.

They are synanmous to each other where there cannot be any necessityor requirement as such.

Therefore, this question is redundant in itself for me.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadaks,Bhagavan has said to Arjuna, "When I (GOD) am in front why you wantto know about all this knowledge". Samadhi levels, different typesof yogas, Etc is not necessary when Bhagavan comes to you. Buddhi +yoga = Buddhi yoga. So there is prefix Buddhi to yoga. So also inother cases. But for Bakthi (worship, devotion, love of God) thereis no prefix. Why? Because Bakthi is crown of all spiritualpractices. Bakthi is unconditional constant and No change in anycondition in love towards GOD. Besides what Bakthi makes? All yogasand samadhi levels in the world put together is practice to silencethe mind from totally to remove Vasanas. This type of practices byone` s effort. So Bhagavan just remains witness to see how far youcan succeed. Bhagavan has clearly said in Geetha that by Yoga or byTapas (austerities) one can reach HIM after serveral births.Bhagavan in same Geetha has also clearly said that HE can liberate aperson in one single (same Jalma) by HIS Sankalpa (resolve, vow).Does it not seem contradictory? NO. First instance you are makingSankalpa (will, resolve, intentions) to reach HIM. Whereas in secondinstance Bagavan is making HIS sankalpa (resolve) to liberate you.Simple Example: 1) Finite is trying to reach infinite. (2) Infiniteis trying to pull finite. Which will succeed? In prakuthi also Masscan attract molecule. Bagavan has said that HE takes care of HISbhakta (devotees), if bhakta fails in his attempt. Bagavan hasgiven a designation as "Yoga Brasta" to such soul failed in bakthi(worship and devotion).In Sri Ranga Mahatyiyam script, mother Lakshmi points out to abhakta saying that he is doing mistakes. Bhagavan immediately saysto mother Lakshmi, "Here after YOU take care of YOUR baktha and I(Bagavan) will take care of MY baktha". One can see from scriptsthat yogis are subjected to abuse and torcher. Where as Bakthas areimmediately rescued by Bagavan. When Bagavan has said in simpleterms, "Surrender to ME", means love (Bhakti) why ponder over manythings.Lastly the cat story of doing certain practices is Gift from Bagavanto animals alone called Instinct. We humans have No instinct and thegift of intellect from God is unused.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan------------------------In our religion, the first 25 years are spent in learning, next 25in married life, next 25 in religious activities with one's spouseand the last 25 in sanyas. This is the time when one is free fromworldly duties and can totally concentrate(dhyan) or meditate andbecome one with the Self and attain Nirvikalp samadhi and moksha orliberation from the endless cycle of birth and death. There areother paths like Karm yog and Gyan yog also but these take time.

Hari Shanker Deo--------------------------

dear sadaks,Nirvikalpa samadhi etc are difficult tasks which are performed byyogis. Vasanas cannot go that easily. But short cut is Bakthi Marg.In this Marg Bagavan comes to you rather than you searching HIM.Examples: Bagavan came to numerous saints, played with them, livedwith them, protected them Baktha Gora, Purander Doss, Tukaram,Pundalikan, Sakubai, Meera bai etc etc. These saints underwentsufferings (which we feel) but they hardly knew what was happening.Bakthi is surrender. Easy and simple way. Here your effort is Zero.In samadhi level your effort is maximum.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan----------------------------

Hari Om.

I saw a kitten in my friend's house today.It had lost its mother soon after it was born.It never knew that it was a kitten and left alone.without any observation or company of a cat, it does exactlywhat a cat does.To pass stool it dug a pit and pushed the mud back after passingstool.Now tell me who taught it to behave like a cat?Its the impression of the brain that was formed when it was in itsmother's womb.The same way all of act according to the impressions that are in ourbrain from the day we entered our mother's womb.This way we carry the good and bad deeds of previous birthwhen we enter our mother's womb.The karma cycle starts here for this birth.For the good deeds we get comfort and for the bad deeds wegetdiscomfortand misery.MOKSHA IS THE PROCESS BY WHICH WE RELIEVE URSELVES

FROM THIS CYCLE OF KARMA.

This can be attained only by doing Sadhana.Ths Sadhana takes us to SAMADHI.Samadhi is the state where our soul light removes our karma.This is the TRUTH OF GEETHA TOLD BY KRUSHNA IN KAPILA CHARITHRAM.THis is known as Shankya Yoga in GEETHA.with regards,

Usha sridhar----------------------------

Yogiraj Madhvacarya's Response (Posted by HariOm Roy for the benefitof the group)

It is a fact that unless one reaches into the causal body and worksat it on the causal plane, one cannot completely eradicate thevasanas. Gita has given the path of buddhi yoga in chapter two,especially in the last portion of chapter two as the solution andinstead of nirvikalpa, we get the term brahmanirvanam.

Gita enunciated two paths as karma yoga and jnana yoga. The path ofjnana yoga has within it the potential to attain the eradications ofthe vasanas, but in my opinion the path of karma yoga will notremove the vasanas but will remove most of the inconvenient orundesirable vasanas.

If someone does not see that the path of jnana yoga and particularlythe buddhi yoga techniques discussed by Sri Krishna as containingthe solution of the problem of the vasanas, it means that the persondoes not understand the Sanskrit terms and is giving those termsinsufficient meanings.

But in that case if one goes to the Uddhava Gita, one will get amore in-depth and detailed instruction for that jnana yoga and thenone's doubts about Gita should be removed.

Buddhi yoga as given in Bhagavad Gita is a practice which was taughtby Sri Krishna to both the jnana yogis and the karma yogis. Karmayogis students like Arjuna got that skill through the practice ofelementary meditation yoga and with that psychological proficiency,they applied this to their life in the cultural world, aspoliticians, state officials and state warriors. The proficiency ofthis for a karma yogi shows by his detachment when punishing andimpartiality when dealing with citizens. Thus Krishna requestedArjuna to exhibit the buddhi yoga proficient on the battlefield ofKurukshetra, just as Janak and other legendary kings did in theVedic history.

Basically speaking the meditative yoga practice of those karma yogisended with this buddhi yoga and its result in their life washighlighted by their detachment and impartially.

First we begin by defining yoga and to do so we must go toPatanjali. He gave us an eight (8) part system which become knownalso as Ashtanga yoga.

Thus bhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga. Buddhi yoga is buddhi+yoga. Jnanayoga is jnana+yoga. Atma yoga is atma+ yoga and so on. In this waywe will be clear when we use these terms. Now if we agree thatbhakti yoga is bhakti + yoga, then what is bhakti? The answer isthat bhakti is bhakti. The next question is : Can someone reachperfection by bhakti alone.. And the answer is that scriptures giveus examples of persons who did just that, persons like the gopis.

Then there is another question, why do yoga and then apply it tobhakti if one can reach perfection by bhakti alone. The answer isobvious, that it would be foolish to do yoga and apply bhakti if youcan reach perfection by bhakti alone. Therefore we accept that onlythose who will fail at bhakti by itself should do yoga and then dobhakti.

But then there is another question as to why even bother with yoga .The answer to that is given by Sri Krishna when he defined thepurpose of yoga as atmavishuddha in Chapter 6 verse 12.

Therefore if one finds that his or her bhakti is not gettingperfection, that person may do yoga for purification of the psyche(atma), the psychological energies. Then when yoga is successful inthat purpose, he or she can apply bhakti and get the desired success.

Buddhi yoga? What is that?

That is the application of yoga practice to curbing and purifyingthe intellect, the buddhi. It has to do with that one aspect only,the buddhi. It concerns nothing else. It is the process of curbingthe buddhi by meditational techniques.

The mastership of the 5th pratyahar stage of yoga and the beginningpractice of the 6th dharana stage concerns buddhi yoga, the curbingand subjugation of the buddhi organ in the subtle body.

The difficulty with implementing the removal of the vasanas, has todo with the deficiency of the human being. This deficiency comesfrom the natural way which is to focus into the gross plane ofexistence. Due to that we have no accurate knowledge or experienceof the subtle existence. And to make matters worse, the causal planeis even more abstract than the subtle level.

How many of us are willing to take up a sadhana which would cause anincrease in subtle perception? How many of us would make that ourtop priority to do whatever would be necessary to shut down most ofour physical interest and to put our attention over to the subtleside.

I feel this is our impediment.

The causal level, which has within it the seed energies (bija) ofthe vasanas, cannot be reached until we develop very subtleperception. How can you affect something which you can neither seenor feel. So first we have to get subtle vision then super subtlevision then we can tackle the root energies of the vasanas whichinfluence and dominate us on this level.

From this physical plane we cannot eradicate the vasanas becausetheir supportive and motivational roots are coming from the causallevel. We can however limited their main manifestation if we applystrong moral principles in an attempt to restrict vices and promotea righteous lifestyle (dharma).

Over time of practicing dharma, one develops some resistance to someof the very gross and vulgar vasanas. From this one develops astrength to challenge the motivational forces, and then graduallyone develops introspection and moves into higher yoga practice. Thuskarma yoga serves as a stepping stone to jnana yoga which is thepractice for directly challenging the vasanas first in the subtlebody and then at their rooting on the causal plane.

One easy way to understand the difference between nirvikalpa andsavikalpa samadhi is through the example of one electric circuitwhich has only a light bulb and another circuit which has a lightbulb and a meter.

The electric supply or generator would serve as representing God orrepresenting the supreme brahman, while the bulb and its littlecircuit presents the jiva or yogi. When we plug the circuit into theelectric supply, the light glows, because it is connected to thatpower..

In the second example there is a meter attached to the bulb ,whereby when the circuit is plugged in, the bulb glows but the meteralso registers a certain quality of current.

In the first example the bulb gets the full current and is fullycharged with the supreme power, while in the second example onlysome of the current is used by the bulb since the meter whichmeasures the current, absorbs some of the electric force.

Thus in the second example the yogi's mind which measures andanalyzes the power which flows from the Supreme, causes a reductionin his contact with the Supreme power.

The advantage of the first example is that the yogi gets to feel thefull supreme power, while in the second example the yogi cannotexperience the full power but is better able to describe hisexperience because he was able to measure the intensity of thesupreme power/

In the first example, after the samadhi the yogi might say, "Iexperience it but there is no way that I can describe it to you. Itwas fully subjective. It was not objective. It was like: I was itand it was me."

In the second case the yogi might say, " I measured it as Iexperienced it. I will describe it to you. I was objective to it.

Madhavacharya (Michael Beloved)

----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGShree Hari:Ram Ram.Please correct the misconcept that Holy Gita is insufficient byreading and assimilating verse 66 of chapter 18. What is Moksh? Whatis Mukti? What is Nirvan? What is Realization of Self? All these arebeyond body mind mechanism whereas samadhi of any type or kind iswithin it and ends with vyutthaan.please be specific as to how and where Gita is found insufficient.Thanks and Regards,Sarvottam----------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Just a quick observation on Divakaranji's post.Sure, it is a great worship when whatever we do as Krishnaarpanam.Such sustained worshiping attitude can lead one to Moksha becausethe highest one can offer(arpana to Krishna) is oneself-ego in totalsurrender!But Moksha or Mukti is not a matter of individual perception, ratherfreedom from Individuality itself! Moksha is when "individual" isseen as illusion, and all his/her perceptions including "I am anindividual with this body-mind" dissolves into THAT which IS! It isthe only Reality/Atman/Brahman/God and cannot be perceived(by mind)because IT perceives everything, even mind-body-world.Namaskar.............

Pratap Bhatt

----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGMy dear Sadhak Gurujan,When whatever we do is made as Krishnaarpanam, that itselfconstitutes worship. Whether Moksha or Mukti is thus achieved is amatter of individual perception.

Subbanarasu Divakaran

----------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In my seeing, it is the most important that one realizes what onetruly IS!, not as one thinks or believes one is! Samadhi as Iunderstand it, is a state which comes and goes, so "we" cannot besuch a state. We are THAT whatever THAT may be, in which such statescome and go, but we don't ever come or go as Consciousness!Upon investigation we may discover that such state as savikalpasamadhi arises in our Consciousness (which is also our Beingness) inmeditation while focusing on God or breath etc., and when samadhistate leaves us it goes back to same Consciousness just as wavearising and vanishing back to ocean(water really). We know "we" areOcean of Consciousness even when waves arise or vanish.

Nirvikalpa samadhi is when Consciousness is devoid of objectsexperienced only as thoughts in mind and sensations/feelings inbody. In otherword, Consciousness being Conscious of ITSELF,liberating from limitations of objects.Due to desires, vaasanas, attachments etc one is constantly occupiedby objects of perceptions and/or feelings such as anger, jealousy,envy etc, samadhi state is not manifest as Consciousness isidentified with such objects.

When understanding takes place through inquiy, contemplations,meditation(if one has inclination to path of Gyan), then onerealizes one is not body-mind based separate person, and samadhihappens naturally. When samadhi state happens naturally regardlessof presence ot abscence of objects as perceptions, conceptions,arising in Consciousness, Consciousness is liberated and a state ofSahaj samadhi happens. (Many saints such as Ramana Maharshi,Ramkrishna Paramhansa were in such a state while being engaged inactivities, as I know).

It is apperception meaning Consciousness being conscious of Itself(Sat-Chit-Ananda swarupa) rather than objects, in all situations.(Like wave now knows it is really water even as it appears to bewave from the mind's perspective).Such realization is of primary importance, and samadhi state may bean indication only.

It is equally possible to realize this by total Devotion, or beingengaged in selfless Karma within guidelines of Dharma. In suchpursuits Grace is bestowed upon Sadhakas by Bhgwaan. Bliss, Love,Peace, Harmony, Intelligence, Beauty manifest in life of such asadhaka which is the same experience of oneness as narrated byrealized ones or Bhagwaan's devotees!To summarize, it is not necessary to have samadhi darshan, neitheris the only path to liberation! Realization through spiritualsadhana with predominence of Self-inquiry, Devotion, or Karma-Yogacan lead to ultimate Grace! One knows undoubtedly ONE isConsciousness(Chit), which is Impersonal Being(sat), and thereforeis at the same time Fullness-Bliss(Anada)!

Namaskar.....

Pratap Bhatt-----------------------------

Moksha need not neccesarily by Yoga or become a brahma gnani toreleased from cycle of life, in Krishna clearly says easiest way toattain nirvana is thru true love towards him, thru gnana and yogathe yogi or upasaka should fix a time to leave this itself requireslot of knowledge and takes many births.

So when easily gnana moksha is available why to go for toughestthing.

But a good food contains all items Dhyana is neccessary along withBhakthi to attain the goal.

But any one who has read the Gita easily can understand and manageboth.

MANY HAVE DOUBTS WHEN KRIHNA SAYS BHAKTHI TAKES U TO MOKSHA THE EASYWAY AND ALSO MENTIONS TO CONCENTRATE ON HIM(dhyana) AND ALSO MENTIONSTO KARMA YOGA.

WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND WE SHOULD PLAY MUTIPLE MARGAS (path) TO ATTAINMOKSHA (salvation).

PLEASE READ GITA BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION ASK URSELF ASK LORD INSIDEYOU.

Shapur Shiva-------------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubtsrelated to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which furtherclarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures tosubstantiate your response.3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respectingsadhaka's time.5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.6. Please do not include links to the other sites or otherorganizations.7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phonenumber, address etc.8. Please do not address the response to a particular individualsince the message is going to the entire group.9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if contentis unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskritwords only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketedwherever possible.

MODERATORRam Ram------------------------

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