Transition from Read-Learned Knowledge to Experiential Knowledge-Realization

January 1, 2009

Dear Sadhak Community

(1) Is the purpose of this forum only to discuss the meaning behind

Gita slokas? and / or

(2) interpreting the slokas or the spirit behind them to lead a

peaceful practical life?

(By practical life, I mean one living the normal life while in the

quest for God, Gita does not shun the karma, but the attachment

towards it)

While I understand both are important, Gita is directing its readers

like us to grow from Tatwa vaadibhi (one who reads and discusses

about the essential element) to tatva darsibhi (one who sees or

practices the knowledge / 'sat').

I am particularly and practically interested in this transition,

because some of the comments from my fellow sadhaks like 'then the

soul leaves the body','everything has nothing, while nothing has

every thing' while the same people are also suggesting 'no one may

have seen God'

'Tatvadarsibhi' (who sees or practices the knowledge / 'sat') is

referred in Gita 2:16 of Sankhya Yoga. Geetha charya suggests in

this sloka the sadhak to be tattva darsibhi (by sticking /

practicing to the 'sat') rather than being tattva vadibhi (talking

about the 'sat'). There is no direct reference to 'tattva vaadibhi'

here.

Let me know your views on the transition.

Regards

Venu Komanduri

----------------------------

NEW POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I have been thinking on the same line( as response to BG 8:3 & 4 or

stand alone) to bring in more emphasis in our posts that will bring

changes in us - transition the teaching of Gita or any authentic

teachings into reality as Venuji has said here!

We have had several nice posts explaining the BG Ch 8:3 & 4 and

2:16 recently.

What is the relationship of that Brahman, the Imperishable, That

ISNESS to I, Adhyatman, Adhibhutas etc.? Unless we experience, and

as a result change, it is of little use, we would think. Brahman may

look out of reach, far away!

As I see there is no substitute for deep understanding which comes

from looking at inner experience as we read or hear spiritual

discourses. In otherwords, we can receive information on such

matters and we can say " ok I know, I am embodied soul or

Existence/Sat " just as we know Delhi is north-East to Mumbai. This

works in the objective world, but I don't think it will work in the

field we are dealing on this platform as we have to rise beyond

mind. We need to discover experientially we are Consciousness, by

knowing what Consciousness means, in the first place!

My humble suggestion would be to see, feel deeply those words of

wisdom, let them resonate in our consciousness or awareness, in our

silence, long enough! They will convey some understanding based on

experience that is your own, if mind opens up to receive!

When such power ladden words merge in silence they take " us " in

Divine Presence!

It is important not to push away such intimations by saying " no, its

not according to such and such... " .

At this point I would stop here to hit this point which I have found

very helpful in all my pursuits. Everything we hear or read from

Realized ones like Swamiji, we need to translate them in our own

ways of putting it in practice in order to say we have understood

them. It is clarity that speaks through us, not " an informed person "

who impersonates us!

More on the subject later!

Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt

------------------------------

Hari Om

The Q of Venuji had two facets. One re the object of this Satsanga

Forum. While I am not in any way a Founder of this Forum but as I

see there is a common thread binding all Sadhaks - Swamiji Shri

Ramsukhdasji Maharaj and Holy Gita. The sphere of Holy Gita is

unlimited and universal- beyond all faiths and religions- covering

humanity at large. This forum is in my view at present " evolving "

and the deliberations are getting divine and divine. We , in fact,

can easily state that we are part of a Jnana Yagya within the

meaning of Holy Gita. Hence I don't see any limitations on the scope

of this forum. Since Holy Gita encompasses entire humanity , both

principles and practice of ideal human conduct - I see nothing wrong

in our addressing any type of problems faced by Sadhaks in their

spiritual journey.

All my personal views as one of the many Sadhaks of this divine

group.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

---------------------------

Dear all ,

Yes , if we can implement the teachings of gita , in our day to day

living , not only will it make life Less stressful , but more

meaningful .

After all we live in our communities and mingle / work / interact,

so i Feel as long as we understand The true meaning (spirit of the

message ) of the message sought to be Conveyed by the gita and try &

Impact the same in our lives , things will be much better .

In short ,what we want to be is better human beings , because only

than can we be better Parents / children / friends /

spouses /sadhaks / teachers/

Rgds

Arvind Malhotra

----------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

The very existence is " SAT " . Those who have experienced the

characteristics of " SAT " and ever changing function of nature-

" ASAT " , they in practice experience " their obvious , self proven,

natural, automatic positioning in the existence viz SAT . In their

experience there is nothing known as ASAT existing. In other words

in their experience only SAT is existing- nothing else is existing.

Such great people are called " tattva darshibhih " . In their

experience only their positioning in SAT- imperishable, permanent,

ever present existence- remains. Through that positioning they get

highest rewards.

In BG 2:16- the term " ubhayorapi " -

represents " conscience " ! " Antah " - represents " element

knowledge " !! " Drishtah " - represents " experience " !!!

Meaning thereby that " conscience has transformed ( " transition " term

as used by the questioner) in to the experiential knowledge and now

what has remained is SAT - existence only! This is the highest state

of Jnana Yoga!! The Highest reward!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

---------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

" The unreal has no existence. " (Gita 2:16). Swamiji has been very

clear about this... " Real " (Sat) is our natural state. Natural is

what needs no effort. It is ever attained. It simply IS. Be situate

in it.

The essence (Real) is always there - will always be there. The real

is not created. The unreal is created from the Real, stays in the

real and then merges in the real. It has no existence of its own.

One has to simply give importance to ones own experience. No need

to believe in the scriptures. Your existence always IS. What is NOT

can never exist. The IS always remains IS. To experience 'I AM', no

effort is required. No practice.

There is no doubt of our existence. The real essence is our

existence. The base, the foundation of all appearance - of all

creation. That is Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness,God).

Meera Das

Ram Ram

----------------------------

This is the sanest stuff I heard in a while!

Hare Krishna!

Gurunath Prakash

----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

Post message:

Subscribe: -

Un: -

January 15, 2009

Dear Sadhak Community

(1) Is the purpose of this forum only to discuss the meaning behind

Gita slokas? and / or

(2) interpreting the slokas or the spirit behind them to lead a

peaceful practical life?

(By practical life, I mean one living the normal life while in the

quest for God, Gita does not shun the karma, but the attachment

towards it)

While I understand both are important, Gita is directing its readers

like us to grow from Tatwa vaadibhi (one who reads and discusses

about the essential element) to tatva darsibhi (one who sees or

practices the knowledge / 'sat').

I am particularly and practically interested in this transition,

because some of the comments from my fellow sadhaks like 'then the

soul leaves the body','everything has nothing, while nothing has

every thing' while the same people are also suggesting 'no one may

have seen God'

'Tatvadarsibhi' (who sees or practices the knowledge / 'sat') is

referred in Gita 2:16 of Sankhya Yoga. Geetha charya suggests in

this sloka the sadhak to be tattva darsibhi (by sticking /

practicing to the 'sat') rather than being tattva vadibhi (talking

about the 'sat'). There is no direct reference to 'tattva vaadibhi'

here.

Let me know your views on the transition.

Regards

Venu Komanduri

----------------------------

SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES

Ram Ram

no scripture recommends only tattva-vada

sphere of Holy Gita is unlimited and universal. It addresses

principles and practice of ideal human conduct. All issues can be

addressed.

As clouds of ignorance and inertia get thinner, clarity increases

" tattva darshibhih " remain only in SAT (Existence)

" The unreal has no existence. " (Gita 2:16)

Sadhak is to be tattva darsibhi (by living/practicing 'sat') rather

than being tattva vadibhi (talking about the 'sat'). Surrender with

pure faith and love on Bagavan and all vasanas will be eradicated

Bhagwan will reveal himself to his children and bring his children

together in the way they resort to Him.

Implementing the teachings of gita - KEY to better you and world

Ram Ram

----------------------------

NEW POSTING

Dear Venu Komanduri,

B.G. 4

In whatever way they resort

To Me do I thus reward them.

It is My path which ev'rywhere

All men follow, O Arjuna. (11).

People the world over from many different faiths, or even non faiths,

who started their journey so very long ago, who hear as it were the

ringing of the sacred bells, and have a yearning in their hearts for

the unknown Beloved, they feel that Love, they know it is there. Do

you not think that Divine Krishna would not take his children by the

hand and show them the way home, 'The last miles'.

It is by means of their actions by their morality and there love,

that Bhagwan will reveal himself to them.

And these pilgrims have the courage to stand firm in HIS Divine

presence, not even caring for their lives.

Do you think HE would not bring his children together so they may

find comfort, be supported and support others in Divine Forum.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Wonderful dear Venu. In other words, you are telling us all to shut

up! Yes that is very much required for any serious seeker.

You are very right … no scripture recommends tattva-vada.

Definitely, tattva-vada can be a potential plague … most often, it

is better to be ignorant rather than being a tattava-vadin:

Andhantamah pravishanti ye avidyaamupaasate |

Tato bhuya iva te tamo ye u vidyaayaam rataah ||

But, … is there any other way toward becoming a tattva-darshin?

Manasaivedamaaptavyam neha naanaasti kinchana ||

We have to retrace the same path in which we collected our garbage

(ignorance and inertia) to remove the same – our minds and bodies.

You know, the vaccine is in the very germ! We have to turn the same

germ against itself to releive ourselves from our deseases. We are

helpless but to indulge in this vada (fight with our own bodily and

mental demands) to remove the ignorance and inertia harbored within.

The darshana (attainment of peace) is an eventuality of the vada

(the war within). No war … no peace! No war within is a suicide in

other words …

Tangste pretyaabhigacchhanti ye kechaatmahano janaah ||

One who persihes without fighting the ignorance and inertia harbored

within is the worst of all suicides. Therefore, a true vada (a

truthful fight against one's own ignorance and inertia - you may

want to call the vaccine, Tattva Vimarsha) is very essential to

attain The Peace (Tattva Darshana) … after all a war is a war …

things can go wrong … but it is definitely better than a suicide …

definitely better than being consumed by our own tendencies as time

passes over rendering no resistance like a pashu … Off course, the

vada has the most vicious side effect that it itself can become the

biggest vasana … well, as far as one is cognizant of the vada and

its vicuous side effects, it is good and … that is the only way.

The clouds of our ignorance and inertia become thinner and thinner

as our truthfulness in our Tattva Vada intensifies in our internal

search for the truth (Vada should be pitched against one's own well-

established stupidity NOT ON THE STUPIDITY WISHFULLY PERCEIVED IN

OTHERS!). Clarity of the truth (Tattva darshana) naturally increases

as the clouds of ignorance and inertia get thinner and thinner … it

is an eventuality that we look forward to so that we can finally

perform your wonderful suggestion – SHUT UP! Till then … let us poor

things perform the ritual waging the war within. Once in a while,

please keep peeping in to remind us that we really wage it only for

the correct reason (to burn the ignorance within) and only on

the correct targets (to uproot the inertia within). That is helpful.

THANK YOU.

Respects.

Naga Narayana

-------------------------------

Dear sadaks,

Geetha charya suggests in

this sloka the sadhak to be tattva darsibhi (by sticking /

practicing to the 'sat') rather than being tattva vadibhi (talking

about the 'sat'). There is no direct reference to 'tattva vaadibhi'

This is what Bagavan said to Arjuna. Bagavan said, " What is use of

knowing all knowledge when I (bagavan) is right in front of you " .

Means do not worry of Sadanas, Karmas, Scripts, knowledge on Sat etc

when the SAT (bagavan) has comes. That is surrender with pure faith

and love on Bagavan who will take care of all the good what

knowledge could give and also eradicate all vasanas, Karmas by HIS

sankalpa itself. We have been trying over several births and still

landing here. But if Bagavan tries you, the there is no any

obstacle to liberate. But if Bagavan wants to try one, then he

must have Niskama Prema Bakthi, which Bagavan has said in Geetha.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

===========================================

Happy new year 2009 to all sadhaks

Thanks for your co-operation and guide regarding Gita 2.16

pawan singhal

--------------------------