Guest guest Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 A Question How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? Are there any yardsticks prescribed in Gita/Ramayana or other Scriptures? How does one know where is he standing at present? Prepetina G -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 A Question How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? Are there any yardsticks prescribed in Gita/Ramayana or other Scriptures? How does one know where is he standing at present? Prepetina G ----------------------------- NEW POSTING The following question was answered on May 14, 2008 in Kansas City Star. I t answers waht is spirituality, what absence of spirituality means. P hope ypu cam post this as the start of discussion. Thank you. Arvind Khetia Q: WHAT DOES THE TERM " SPIRITUALITY " MEAN IN YOUR FAITH? Ans: The universal and inclusive nature of Hinduism is derived from its emphasis on spirituality. The sages of ancient India contemplated on the nature of consciousness and realized that there is a divine presence at the core of all existence and within all human beings. Thus, behind this material world, at a deep spiritual level of consciousness, they realized an underlying unity. To realize one's inner divinity, Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad- Gita, " The Supreme Reality is revealed in the consciousness of those who have conquered themselves. " Thus, one's spiritual quest begins with cultivating self-control, detachment, truthfulness and non- violence, and culminates in realizing the ultimate Reality within oneself and in all of the existence. Thus, according to Vedanta (spiritual philosophy of Hinduism), spirituality is not just believing, but becoming. It requires an increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all. Then, one can transcend apparent differences based on race, religion or gender, and transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. The absence of spirituality creates the delusion of separateness resulting in a false sense of superiority. Consequently, exploitation, hatred, fear and violence follows. Swami Vivekananda correctly observed that, " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality, and the death of that race begins the day that spirituality wanes and materialism gains ground. " -------------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Spiritual progress is unlike progress we measure in worldly matters. One can measure over time noting the change between two points in time. Conventionally we may say spiritual progress just to encourage sadhakas on their way to liberation. however, time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. As such the understanding happens in flashes when one is least expecting. It's " aha wow.., now I know " moments accompanied by joy due to the absence of " me " . Such moments are brief in the starting, but they become more prevalent and asserting down the road. Bottom line is that progress, for the lack of better word, is when there is increasing joy without any cause! One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God which is Life! At this point in one's sadhana, only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God(vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains... namaskara............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Prepetina, Be very careful, because of the word judge, because one may start to think, " Well I meditate twice a day, and practice sacred rituals every day, she/he doesn't. I am much further along the path! " , you may start to judge others. Remember the two birds at the fountain. A true story: During my time in Singapore, I used to pass a very small Hindu Shrine, and there was this man there busy cleaning and tidying the Shrine and its surrounds on a daily basis. When he was done he used to sit in Lotus for hours in the sun, just where the path to the Shrine met the street pavement, but to one side, so as not to obstruct, (I presume), his eyes were always open, and the merest hint of a smile on his face. I mentioned this man of so long ago to a group of people we meditate with, asking what was he doing sitting there for so long, quite a few folk agreed with the comment made by one, " He was doing Gods Work " , another said, " After all you still remember him " , I do indeed, he was my,'Silent Guru'. B.G. Chapter 9 Those who direct their thoughts to Me, Worshiping Me with steadfast mind, For them I secure what they lack And preserve that which they possess. (22) The only yardstick I see is that you have started to do that which is described in Gitaji 9:22, as you have turned towards this Satsang, (a spiritual move). My simple humble advice is to get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor). ----------------------------- There are no yardsticks as such but with spiritual practices like sewa, sadhna, satsang and meditation if done properly and regularly one can notice the changes in one's thoughts, action , behaviour etc.. When one connects with one's Self, he or she will realise that all that we see is maya or an illusion and that the only true path and the goal for our soul is to become one with the Parmatma or God. After that we are spared from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------- SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES TO DATE - Spiritual progress is unlike progress in worldly matters - spirituality is not just believing, but becoming - Spirituality is increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all, thus transcending all differences. - Absence of spirituality creates delusion of separateness/superiority - transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. - Swami Vivekananda " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality... " - time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. - understanding happens in flashes.. It's " aha wow... One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God! Life! and only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God (vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains. - get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. - Bhagwaan (The Beloved) will secure what is lacking and preserve that which you possess - Only one goal - become one with Paramatma for eternal bliss - all else is maya. there are no yardsticks -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 A Question How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? Are there any yardsticks prescribed in Gita/Ramayana or other Scriptures? How does one know where is he standing at present? Prepetina G ----------------------------- NEW POSTING As the understanding gets deeper with experience and start getting near the true natural state...... there is increasing joy .......for no outside reasons........This means good progress....... When this inner happiness is not disturbed at all.....gets stabilized..... That is the state of bliss or moksha.....connection to the supercomputer of the universe... Self assessment or assessment by others of higher consciousness levels may be necessary to know if the direction needs correction.....But it is all very tricky. Mind plays in many ways and even a single thought could stop the progress further...... Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind... Wonderful way of knowing self............................. Sushil Jain ----------------------------- Hari Om Yardsticks as sought by you based on Swamiji's discourses and Gitaji: 1 The bouts of anger/greed are not now that frequent as they were in the past. 2 They don't come now with that high velocity and ferocity as they used into the past. 3 They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. 4 Divine properties as described in the BG 16:1 to 16:3 have started manifesting into you. Like fearlessness, clean conscience, austerity, tolerance, truthfulness, easyness, strightforwardness, non violence, giving to other, reading of holy scriptures, non fickleness, a shame in doing evil , radiance, forgiveness, etc In fact your spiritual progress can be judged from above yardsticks. Anger reduces, the frequency reduces, it remains for lesser time than in the past. I may add here that it is not very beneficial for a sadhak to keep observing as where does he stand in spiritual progress. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj also stated that one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. It is not a matter of worry but surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging also gives rise to comparison with another and then arises either pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex) . Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- Dear Sadak, Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama (desires), Krodh (anger), Lobha (greed) etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi (devotion and worship of God). B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- Dear Sadhkas, Namaskar It is good question...How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? I feel, by analysing the existing concepts of spirituality, he can know how far he is approaching the truth...the facts connected to his existance...Gee Waman ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING The following question was answered on May 14, 2008 in Kansas City Star. I t answers waht is spirituality, what absence of spirituality means. P hope ypu cam post this as the start of discussion. Thank you. Arvind Khetia Q: WHAT DOES THE TERM " SPIRITUALITY " MEAN IN YOUR FAITH? Ans: The universal and inclusive nature of Hinduism is derived from its emphasis on spirituality. The sages of ancient India contemplated on the nature of consciousness and realized that there is a divine presence at the core of all existence and within all human beings. Thus, behind this material world, at a deep spiritual level of consciousness, they realized an underlying unity. To realize one's inner divinity, Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad- Gita, " The Supreme Reality is revealed in the consciousness of those who have conquered themselves. " Thus, one's spiritual quest begins with cultivating self-control, detachment, truthfulness and non- violence, and culminates in realizing the ultimate Reality within oneself and in all of the existence. Thus, according to Vedanta (spiritual philosophy of Hinduism), spirituality is not just believing, but becoming. It requires an increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all. Then, one can transcend apparent differences based on race, religion or gender, and transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. The absence of spirituality creates the delusion of separateness resulting in a false sense of superiority. Consequently, exploitation, hatred, fear and violence follows. Swami Vivekananda correctly observed that, " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality, and the death of that race begins the day that spirituality wanes and materialism gains ground. " -------------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Spiritual progress is unlike progress we measure in worldly matters. One can measure over time noting the change between two points in time. Conventionally we may say spiritual progress just to encourage sadhakas on their way to liberation. however, time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. As such the understanding happens in flashes when one is least expecting. It's " aha wow.., now I know " moments accompanied by joy due to the absence of " me " . Such moments are brief in the starting, but they become more prevalent and asserting down the road. Bottom line is that progress, for the lack of better word, is when there is increasing joy without any cause! One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God which is Life! At this point in one's sadhana, only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God(vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains... namaskara............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Prepetina, Be very careful, because of the word judge, because one may start to think, " Well I meditate twice a day, and practice sacred rituals every day, she/he doesn't. I am much further along the path! " , you may start to judge others. Remember the two birds at the fountain. A true story: During my time in Singapore, I used to pass a very small Hindu Shrine, and there was this man there busy cleaning and tidying the Shrine and its surrounds on a daily basis. When he was done he used to sit in Lotus for hours in the sun, just where the path to the Shrine met the street pavement, but to one side, so as not to obstruct, (I presume), his eyes were always open, and the merest hint of a smile on his face. I mentioned this man of so long ago to a group of people we meditate with, asking what was he doing sitting there for so long, quite a few folk agreed with the comment made by one, " He was doing Gods Work " , another said, " After all you still remember him " , I do indeed, he was my,'Silent Guru'. B.G. Chapter 9 Those who direct their thoughts to Me, Worshiping Me with steadfast mind, For them I secure what they lack And preserve that which they possess. (22) The only yardstick I see is that you have started to do that which is described in Gitaji 9:22, as you have turned towards this Satsang, (a spiritual move). My simple humble advice is to get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor). ----------------------------- There are no yardsticks as such but with spiritual practices like sewa, sadhna, satsang and meditation if done properly and regularly one can notice the changes in one's thoughts, action , behaviour etc.. When one connects with one's Self, he or she will realise that all that we see is maya or an illusion and that the only true path and the goal for our soul is to become one with the Parmatma or God. After that we are spared from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------- SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES TO DATE - Spiritual progress is unlike progress in worldly matters - spirituality is not just believing, but becoming - Spirituality is increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all, thus transcending all differences. - Absence of spirituality creates delusion of separateness/superiority - transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. - Swami Vivekananda " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality... " - time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. - understanding happens in flashes.. It's " aha wow... One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God! Life! and only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God (vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains. - get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. - Bhagwaan (The Beloved) will secure what is lacking and preserve that which you possess - Only one goal - become one with Paramatma for eternal bliss - all else is maya. there are no yardsticks - Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama, Krodh, Lobha etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi. - reduction in frequency, velocity of anger/greed/desires and They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. Divine properties of Gita 16:1-3 - Yardstick - how far he is approaching the truth/existence - one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. Rather experience surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging leads to comparison resulting in pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex). Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. - increasing joy for no external reason. state of bliss or moksha - Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind. -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram Cleaning pending queue. Only responding if adding to what has already been covered by other sadhaks. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------- A Question How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? Are there any yardsticks prescribed in Gita/Ramayana or other Scriptures? How does one know where is he standing at present? Prepetina G ----------------------------- NEW POSTING How much love you have developed for Bhagwaan. How much do you remember Bhagwaan, just like lovers (lover and the loved). IN HINDI Bhagwan ke prati kitna pyar hua hai Unki kitni yaad aati hai. Just like premi & premika Thanx Raja Gurdasani --------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji says that the less that we are attracted to the world and the more that our attraction, attachment, devotion to God increases, that much we have progressed spiritually. On having made spiritual progress, there is less attachment (passion, attraction, likes, desires) and aversion (dislikes, hatred, enmity) in worldly relations. There is less elation and dejection in worldly affairs. There is less pleasure or pain from worldly gains and losses. There is a peaceful feeling, ever cheerfulness and contentment. Meera Das Ram Ram --------------------- Best way to " judge " spiritual progress is in the absence of any yardsticks to measure the same as well as anything else. Best " yard stick " to measure spiritual progress is the absence of any need to judge the same as well as anything else. Absence of judgment as well as measurement altogether is The Spirituality. If at all one insists for one ... The Happiness is the " yard stick " to " measure " as well as the " basis " to " judge " one's spiritual progress ... because, The Happiness is the one that REQUIRES absence of both the qualities - judgment and measurement ... as far as one does not attempt to use The Happiness as an instrument to judge or measure anything as such. Respects. Naga Narayana ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING As the understanding gets deeper with experience and start getting near the true natural state...... there is increasing joy .......for no outside reasons........This means good progress....... When this inner happiness is not disturbed at all.....gets stabilized..... That is the state of bliss or moksha.....connection to the supercomputer of the universe... Self assessment or assessment by others of higher consciousness levels may be necessary to know if the direction needs correction.....But it is all very tricky. Mind plays in many ways and even a single thought could stop the progress further...... Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind... Wonderful way of knowing self............................. Sushil Jain ----------------------------- Hari Om Yardsticks as sought by you based on Swamiji's discourses and Gitaji: 1 The bouts of anger/greed are not now that frequent as they were in the past. 2 They don't come now with that high velocity and ferocity as they used into the past. 3 They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. 4 Divine properties as described in the BG 16:1 to 16:3 have started manifesting into you. Like fearlessness, clean conscience, austerity, tolerance, truthfulness, easyness, strightforwardness, non violence, giving to other, reading of holy scriptures, non fickleness, a shame in doing evil , radiance, forgiveness, etc In fact your spiritual progress can be judged from above yardsticks. Anger reduces, the frequency reduces, it remains for lesser time than in the past. I may add here that it is not very beneficial for a sadhak to keep observing as where does he stand in spiritual progress. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj also stated that one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. It is not a matter of worry but surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging also gives rise to comparison with another and then arises either pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex) . Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- Dear Sadak, Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama (desires), Krodh (anger), Lobha (greed) etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi (devotion and worship of God). B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- Dear Sadhkas, Namaskar It is good question...How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? I feel, by analysing the existing concepts of spirituality, he can know how far he is approaching the truth...the facts connected to his existance...Gee Waman ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING The following question was answered on May 14, 2008 in Kansas City Star. I t answers waht is spirituality, what absence of spirituality means. P hope ypu cam post this as the start of discussion. Thank you. Arvind Khetia Q: WHAT DOES THE TERM " SPIRITUALITY " MEAN IN YOUR FAITH? Ans: The universal and inclusive nature of Hinduism is derived from its emphasis on spirituality. The sages of ancient India contemplated on the nature of consciousness and realized that there is a divine presence at the core of all existence and within all human beings. Thus, behind this material world, at a deep spiritual level of consciousness, they realized an underlying unity. To realize one's inner divinity, Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad- Gita, " The Supreme Reality is revealed in the consciousness of those who have conquered themselves. " Thus, one's spiritual quest begins with cultivating self-control, detachment, truthfulness and non- violence, and culminates in realizing the ultimate Reality within oneself and in all of the existence. Thus, according to Vedanta (spiritual philosophy of Hinduism), spirituality is not just believing, but becoming. It requires an increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all. Then, one can transcend apparent differences based on race, religion or gender, and transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. The absence of spirituality creates the delusion of separateness resulting in a false sense of superiority. Consequently, exploitation, hatred, fear and violence follows. Swami Vivekananda correctly observed that, " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality, and the death of that race begins the day that spirituality wanes and materialism gains ground. " -------------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Spiritual progress is unlike progress we measure in worldly matters. One can measure over time noting the change between two points in time. Conventionally we may say spiritual progress just to encourage sadhakas on their way to liberation. however, time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. As such the understanding happens in flashes when one is least expecting. It's " aha wow.., now I know " moments accompanied by joy due to the absence of " me " . Such moments are brief in the starting, but they become more prevalent and asserting down the road. Bottom line is that progress, for the lack of better word, is when there is increasing joy without any cause! One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God which is Life! At this point in one's sadhana, only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God(vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains... namaskara............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Prepetina, Be very careful, because of the word judge, because one may start to think, " Well I meditate twice a day, and practice sacred rituals every day, she/he doesn't. I am much further along the path! " , you may start to judge others. Remember the two birds at the fountain. A true story: During my time in Singapore, I used to pass a very small Hindu Shrine, and there was this man there busy cleaning and tidying the Shrine and its surrounds on a daily basis. When he was done he used to sit in Lotus for hours in the sun, just where the path to the Shrine met the street pavement, but to one side, so as not to obstruct, (I presume), his eyes were always open, and the merest hint of a smile on his face. I mentioned this man of so long ago to a group of people we meditate with, asking what was he doing sitting there for so long, quite a few folk agreed with the comment made by one, " He was doing Gods Work " , another said, " After all you still remember him " , I do indeed, he was my,'Silent Guru'. B.G. Chapter 9 Those who direct their thoughts to Me, Worshiping Me with steadfast mind, For them I secure what they lack And preserve that which they possess. (22) The only yardstick I see is that you have started to do that which is described in Gitaji 9:22, as you have turned towards this Satsang, (a spiritual move). My simple humble advice is to get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor). ----------------------------- There are no yardsticks as such but with spiritual practices like sewa, sadhna, satsang and meditation if done properly and regularly one can notice the changes in one's thoughts, action , behaviour etc.. When one connects with one's Self, he or she will realise that all that we see is maya or an illusion and that the only true path and the goal for our soul is to become one with the Parmatma or God. After that we are spared from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------- SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES TO DATE - Spiritual progress is unlike progress in worldly matters - spirituality is not just believing, but becoming - Spirituality is increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all, thus transcending all differences. - Absence of spirituality creates delusion of separateness/superiority - transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. - Swami Vivekananda " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality... " - time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. - understanding happens in flashes.. It's " aha wow... One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God! Life! and only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God (vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains. - get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. - Bhagwaan (The Beloved) will secure what is lacking and preserve that which you possess - Only one goal - become one with Paramatma for eternal bliss - all else is maya. there are no yardsticks - Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama, Krodh, Lobha etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi. - reduction in frequency, velocity of anger/greed/desires and They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. Divine properties of Gita 16:1-3 - Yardstick - how far he is approaching the truth/existence - one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. Rather experience surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging leads to comparison resulting in pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex). Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. - increasing joy for no external reason. state of bliss or moksha - Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind. -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram Cleaning pending queue. Only responding if adding to what has already been covered by other sadhaks. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------- A Question How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? Are there any yardsticks prescribed in Gita/Ramayana or other Scriptures? How does one know where is he standing at present? Prepetina G ----------------------------- NEW POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji says that when the longing is so intense for God that one remembers nothing but God and only God. Besides God, nothing is attractive. Nothing in the world is appealing, absolutely nothing else - " Ab kuch bhi nahin suhaave, ek tu hi mana bhaave. " Only You and You alone. During the day there is no hunger, nor thirst, at night there is no desire to sleep, time and time again there is that one and only one intense longing - " Din nahin bhookh, raine nahin nidraa, chin chin vyaakul hot hiyaa. " There is no laughter, there is intense uneasiness and longing - when will I behold Him!!! Meera Das Ram Ram ----------------------------- From Drops Of Nectar, chapter 27, page 41 397. In the beginning, to a sadhak God appears to be far off, then He seems closer, then sadhak sees God within his own Self, and later he sees nothing, but only God. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/englishbooks/english% 20book%20layout/The%20Drops%20Nector/main.html Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia Swamiji has said that A sadhak should judge his spiritual progress only when he is in doubt. Compared to his previous state before becoming a sadhak, he will definitely notice some difference. If he has no doubt then he should never judge himself, he should just be steadfast in his practice. If he starts judging then there are some pitfalls: 1. Complacency - If he becomes complacent at his present state then he will not strive for further perfection. Also the present state of peacefulness will not last because attachment of sattvik also leads to bondage. " Sattvagun binds through attachment of peace and knowledge " (Gita 14.6) It does not mean that sadhak does not has to respect peace and knowledge of sattvagun. He has to respect that peace and also protect it because that will only lead to emancipation. " But the self-controlled sadhak, while enjoying the various sense- objects through his senses, which are disciplined and free from likes and dislikes, attains of placidity of mind. With the attainment of such placidity of mind, all his sorrows come to an end; and the intellect of such a tranquil mind soon withdrawing itself from all sides, becomes firmly established in God " (Gita 2.64- 65) " The peace of yogarudh (one who is tranquil) sadhak is way to blessedness " (Gita 6.3) He has to respect sattvagun but not get attached to it. 2. Ego - There is always a fear of this ego - 'I am a good sadhak'. This will definitely spell doom for him. This is related to first point but I'm specifying it as different point because this is the most dangerous. To make him aware of this mistake, God sends unfavorable circumstances. 3. Mine-ness with inert - When a sadhak judges himself he judges them only by looking into mind, intellect, nature etc. The problem here is that with whom sadhak has to break his affinity he is looking into those things. The Self does not change, it remains as it is. Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING How much love you have developed for Bhagwaan. How much do you remember Bhagwaan, just like lovers (lover and the loved). IN HINDI Bhagwan ke prati kitna pyar hua hai Unki kitni yaad aati hai. Just like premi & premika Thanx Raja Gurdasani --------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji says that the less that we are attracted to the world and the more that our attraction, attachment, devotion to God increases, that much we have progressed spiritually. On having made spiritual progress, there is less attachment (passion, attraction, likes, desires) and aversion (dislikes, hatred, enmity) in worldly relations. There is less elation and dejection in worldly affairs. There is less pleasure or pain from worldly gains and losses. There is a peaceful feeling, ever cheerfulness and contentment. Meera Das Ram Ram --------------------- Best way to " judge " spiritual progress is in the absence of any yardsticks to measure the same as well as anything else. Best " yard stick " to measure spiritual progress is the absence of any need to judge the same as well as anything else. Absence of judgment as well as measurement altogether is The Spirituality. If at all one insists for one ... The Happiness is the " yard stick " to " measure " as well as the " basis " to " judge " one's spiritual progress ... because, The Happiness is the one that REQUIRES absence of both the qualities - judgment and measurement ... as far as one does not attempt to use The Happiness as an instrument to judge or measure anything as such. Respects. Naga Narayana ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING As the understanding gets deeper with experience and start getting near the true natural state...... there is increasing joy .......for no outside reasons........This means good progress....... When this inner happiness is not disturbed at all.....gets stabilized..... That is the state of bliss or moksha.....connection to the supercomputer of the universe... Self assessment or assessment by others of higher consciousness levels may be necessary to know if the direction needs correction.....But it is all very tricky. Mind plays in many ways and even a single thought could stop the progress further...... Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind... Wonderful way of knowing self............................. Sushil Jain ----------------------------- Hari Om Yardsticks as sought by you based on Swamiji's discourses and Gitaji: 1 The bouts of anger/greed are not now that frequent as they were in the past. 2 They don't come now with that high velocity and ferocity as they used into the past. 3 They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. 4 Divine properties as described in the BG 16:1 to 16:3 have started manifesting into you. Like fearlessness, clean conscience, austerity, tolerance, truthfulness, easyness, strightforwardness, non violence, giving to other, reading of holy scriptures, non fickleness, a shame in doing evil , radiance, forgiveness, etc In fact your spiritual progress can be judged from above yardsticks. Anger reduces, the frequency reduces, it remains for lesser time than in the past. I may add here that it is not very beneficial for a sadhak to keep observing as where does he stand in spiritual progress. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj also stated that one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. It is not a matter of worry but surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging also gives rise to comparison with another and then arises either pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex) . Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- Dear Sadak, Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama (desires), Krodh (anger), Lobha (greed) etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi (devotion and worship of God). B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- Dear Sadhkas, Namaskar It is good question...How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? I feel, by analysing the existing concepts of spirituality, he can know how far he is approaching the truth...the facts connected to his existance...Gee Waman ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING The following question was answered on May 14, 2008 in Kansas City Star. I t answers waht is spirituality, what absence of spirituality means. P hope ypu cam post this as the start of discussion. Thank you. Arvind Khetia Q: WHAT DOES THE TERM " SPIRITUALITY " MEAN IN YOUR FAITH? Ans: The universal and inclusive nature of Hinduism is derived from its emphasis on spirituality. The sages of ancient India contemplated on the nature of consciousness and realized that there is a divine presence at the core of all existence and within all human beings. Thus, behind this material world, at a deep spiritual level of consciousness, they realized an underlying unity. To realize one's inner divinity, Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad- Gita, " The Supreme Reality is revealed in the consciousness of those who have conquered themselves. " Thus, one's spiritual quest begins with cultivating self-control, detachment, truthfulness and non- violence, and culminates in realizing the ultimate Reality within oneself and in all of the existence. Thus, according to Vedanta (spiritual philosophy of Hinduism), spirituality is not just believing, but becoming. It requires an increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all. Then, one can transcend apparent differences based on race, religion or gender, and transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. The absence of spirituality creates the delusion of separateness resulting in a false sense of superiority. Consequently, exploitation, hatred, fear and violence follows. Swami Vivekananda correctly observed that, " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality, and the death of that race begins the day that spirituality wanes and materialism gains ground. " -------------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Spiritual progress is unlike progress we measure in worldly matters. One can measure over time noting the change between two points in time. Conventionally we may say spiritual progress just to encourage sadhakas on their way to liberation. however, time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. As such the understanding happens in flashes when one is least expecting. It's " aha wow.., now I know " moments accompanied by joy due to the absence of " me " . Such moments are brief in the starting, but they become more prevalent and asserting down the road. Bottom line is that progress, for the lack of better word, is when there is increasing joy without any cause! One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God which is Life! At this point in one's sadhana, only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God(vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains... namaskara............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Prepetina, Be very careful, because of the word judge, because one may start to think, " Well I meditate twice a day, and practice sacred rituals every day, she/he doesn't. I am much further along the path! " , you may start to judge others. Remember the two birds at the fountain. A true story: During my time in Singapore, I used to pass a very small Hindu Shrine, and there was this man there busy cleaning and tidying the Shrine and its surrounds on a daily basis. When he was done he used to sit in Lotus for hours in the sun, just where the path to the Shrine met the street pavement, but to one side, so as not to obstruct, (I presume), his eyes were always open, and the merest hint of a smile on his face. I mentioned this man of so long ago to a group of people we meditate with, asking what was he doing sitting there for so long, quite a few folk agreed with the comment made by one, " He was doing Gods Work " , another said, " After all you still remember him " , I do indeed, he was my,'Silent Guru'. B.G. Chapter 9 Those who direct their thoughts to Me, Worshiping Me with steadfast mind, For them I secure what they lack And preserve that which they possess. (22) The only yardstick I see is that you have started to do that which is described in Gitaji 9:22, as you have turned towards this Satsang, (a spiritual move). My simple humble advice is to get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor). ----------------------------- There are no yardsticks as such but with spiritual practices like sewa, sadhna, satsang and meditation if done properly and regularly one can notice the changes in one's thoughts, action , behaviour etc.. When one connects with one's Self, he or she will realise that all that we see is maya or an illusion and that the only true path and the goal for our soul is to become one with the Parmatma or God. After that we are spared from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------- SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES TO DATE - Spiritual progress is unlike progress in worldly matters - spirituality is not just believing, but becoming - Spirituality is increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all, thus transcending all differences. - Absence of spirituality creates delusion of separateness/superiority - transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. - Swami Vivekananda " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality... " - time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. - understanding happens in flashes.. It's " aha wow... One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God! Life! and only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God (vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains. - get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. - Bhagwaan (The Beloved) will secure what is lacking and preserve that which you possess - Only one goal - become one with Paramatma for eternal bliss - all else is maya. there are no yardsticks - Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama, Krodh, Lobha etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi. - reduction in frequency, velocity of anger/greed/desires and They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. Divine properties of Gita 16:1-3 - Yardstick - how far he is approaching the truth/existence - one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. Rather experience surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging leads to comparison resulting in pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex). Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. - increasing joy for no external reason. state of bliss or moksha - Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind. -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram Cleaning pending queue. Only responding if adding to what has already been covered by other sadhaks. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------- A Question How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? Are there any yardsticks prescribed in Gita/Ramayana or other Scriptures? How does one know where is he standing at present? Prepetina G ----------------------------- NEW POSTING The single most measure for self evaluation is : The ability to abide peacefully and joyfully in the present,dealing with whatever situation Existence places you, without remorse or guilt of the past, and any anxiety for the future ( results) . AUM. narinder bhandari ----------------------------- Near & Dear Prepetina G, According to your Query, there is a single and unique yardstick to measure not only our spiritual progress but also our routine work, that is all the activities was, is, and will be done by us. That is our " MANA " in the sense HEART. It is my personal request that please listen to PRAVACHAN of MAHARAJ JI of the day of April-1991, You will definitely clear your doubts. If there is a single mistake in conveying this then please forgive me. Jag Mohan ------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Jag Mohanji, please specify exact date and time of pravachan. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram --------------- Spirituality & Progress Yardstick Gita clearly specifies the attributes of behaviour of a Yogi on the path to Nirvana (Godhood). One can find out progress by the following measures: How much of time in his waking day and sleep does one remain (i) unperturbed by external events and developments (ii) work, think and act with complete concentration without any desire to seek pleasure or satisfaction, (iii) does not feel the pressure of self-ego (the idea that I am doing/ thinking/ eating) (iv) sees every person as the same as no different from himself as manifestation of God, (v) without anger irrespective of whatever happens (vi) without disappointment irrespective of whatever happens (viii) without pride.... If the percentage of time under (i) to (viii) continously increases, there is progress. Basudeb Sen ------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Judging capacity or rights to judge the progress of anyone or self solely in the hands of GOD. Normally one who experienced a little of Bagavan have to go 2/3 births still more. Examples: Sant Namdev, even after Bagavan Paruranga (Sri Krishna) had direct touch with him, he was born again as Sant Tukaram who flew to Vaikunt. Jada Bharat in Sri Bagavath Puran took 2 births and then got liberated. Ramana Rishi said that he crossed few birth to understand that world is Maya and he remained attached to SAT. There were cases were Bakthas like Vilvamangalam who was regularly playing and living with Sri Krishna was deluded by a small mistake and had to take birth as a cow, then as a snake and then as plant Tulasi in Guruvayur. The tulasi leaves were on Ekadasi day was plucked from that so called Vilvamangal Tulasi tree and garlanded to sri Krishna and there after Vilvamangalam was with Bagavan. A person aiming at medal in a race normally never succeds. But a person who runs just for race with enthusiasm wins. So if one has slight desire to measure his yardstick, only falls rather than raising. There is a beatiful example from stories of Brindavan. A calf used to looking at Sri Krishna while grassing so pathetically, got liberated. When the Jeeva of calf leaving the body (Calf body) was wittnessed by a great saint at Brindavan. Saint asked Bagavan Sri Krishna, when such a grace is going to come for him. Sri Krishna said, " Oh saint, the calf was looking at me with mind set saying that it is was expressing it`s total inability even to think of ME (Sri Krishna). So the calf had total surrender and no atom of I- ness. Where as you think you are saint, that which is obstacle for you " . Sadaks, we are desiring for infenity, SAT, unchanging bliss, so our input quality can be only measured by Bagavan. Surrender to HIM and progress. To judge your exam paper you dont do. Somebody does. This is for education and earning for survival not for liberation. Then imagine for liberation-What? Jai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan ----------------------------- Pranam Meeraji, How to create such intense longing for GOD? Varun P. Paprunia ----------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji says that when the longing is so intense for God that one remembers nothing but God and only God. Besides God, nothing is attractive. Nothing in the world is appealing, absolutely nothing else - " Ab kuch bhi nahin suhaave, ek tu hi mana bhaave. " Only You and You alone. During the day there is no hunger, nor thirst, at night there is no desire to sleep, time and time again there is that one and only one intense longing - " Din nahin bhookh, raine nahin nidraa, chin chin vyaakul hot hiyaa. " There is no laughter, there is intense uneasiness and longing - when will I behold Him!!! Meera Das Ram Ram ----------------------------- From Drops Of Nectar, chapter 27, page 41 397. In the beginning, to a sadhak God appears to be far off, then He seems closer, then sadhak sees God within his own Self, and later he sees nothing, but only God. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/englishbooks/english% 20book%20layout/The%20Drops%20Nector/main.html Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia Swamiji has said that A sadhak should judge his spiritual progress only when he is in doubt. Compared to his previous state before becoming a sadhak, he will definitely notice some difference. If he has no doubt then he should never judge himself, he should just be steadfast in his practice. If he starts judging then there are some pitfalls: 1. Complacency - If he becomes complacent at his present state then he will not strive for further perfection. Also the present state of peacefulness will not last because attachment of sattvik also leads to bondage. " Sattvagun binds through attachment of peace and knowledge " (Gita 14.6) It does not mean that sadhak does not has to respect peace and knowledge of sattvagun. He has to respect that peace and also protect it because that will only lead to emancipation. " But the self-controlled sadhak, while enjoying the various sense- objects through his senses, which are disciplined and free from likes and dislikes, attains of placidity of mind. With the attainment of such placidity of mind, all his sorrows come to an end; and the intellect of such a tranquil mind soon withdrawing itself from all sides, becomes firmly established in God " (Gita 2.64- 65) " The peace of yogarudh (one who is tranquil) sadhak is way to blessedness " (Gita 6.3) He has to respect sattvagun but not get attached to it. 2. Ego - There is always a fear of this ego - 'I am a good sadhak'. This will definitely spell doom for him. This is related to first point but I'm specifying it as different point because this is the most dangerous. To make him aware of this mistake, God sends unfavorable circumstances. 3. Mine-ness with inert - When a sadhak judges himself he judges them only by looking into mind, intellect, nature etc. The problem here is that with whom sadhak has to break his affinity he is looking into those things. The Self does not change, it remains as it is. Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING How much love you have developed for Bhagwaan. How much do you remember Bhagwaan, just like lovers (lover and the loved). IN HINDI Bhagwan ke prati kitna pyar hua hai Unki kitni yaad aati hai. Just like premi & premika Thanx Raja Gurdasani --------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji says that the less that we are attracted to the world and the more that our attraction, attachment, devotion to God increases, that much we have progressed spiritually. On having made spiritual progress, there is less attachment (passion, attraction, likes, desires) and aversion (dislikes, hatred, enmity) in worldly relations. There is less elation and dejection in worldly affairs. There is less pleasure or pain from worldly gains and losses. There is a peaceful feeling, ever cheerfulness and contentment. Meera Das Ram Ram --------------------- Best way to " judge " spiritual progress is in the absence of any yardsticks to measure the same as well as anything else. Best " yard stick " to measure spiritual progress is the absence of any need to judge the same as well as anything else. Absence of judgment as well as measurement altogether is The Spirituality. If at all one insists for one ... The Happiness is the " yard stick " to " measure " as well as the " basis " to " judge " one's spiritual progress ... because, The Happiness is the one that REQUIRES absence of both the qualities - judgment and measurement ... as far as one does not attempt to use The Happiness as an instrument to judge or measure anything as such. Respects. Naga Narayana ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING As the understanding gets deeper with experience and start getting near the true natural state...... there is increasing joy .......for no outside reasons........This means good progress....... When this inner happiness is not disturbed at all.....gets stabilized..... That is the state of bliss or moksha.....connection to the supercomputer of the universe... Self assessment or assessment by others of higher consciousness levels may be necessary to know if the direction needs correction.....But it is all very tricky. Mind plays in many ways and even a single thought could stop the progress further...... Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind... Wonderful way of knowing self............................. Sushil Jain ----------------------------- Hari Om Yardsticks as sought by you based on Swamiji's discourses and Gitaji: 1 The bouts of anger/greed are not now that frequent as they were in the past. 2 They don't come now with that high velocity and ferocity as they used into the past. 3 They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. 4 Divine properties as described in the BG 16:1 to 16:3 have started manifesting into you. Like fearlessness, clean conscience, austerity, tolerance, truthfulness, easyness, strightforwardness, non violence, giving to other, reading of holy scriptures, non fickleness, a shame in doing evil , radiance, forgiveness, etc In fact your spiritual progress can be judged from above yardsticks. Anger reduces, the frequency reduces, it remains for lesser time than in the past. I may add here that it is not very beneficial for a sadhak to keep observing as where does he stand in spiritual progress. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj also stated that one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. It is not a matter of worry but surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging also gives rise to comparison with another and then arises either pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex) . Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- Dear Sadak, Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama (desires), Krodh (anger), Lobha (greed) etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi (devotion and worship of God). B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- Dear Sadhkas, Namaskar It is good question...How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? I feel, by analysing the existing concepts of spirituality, he can know how far he is approaching the truth...the facts connected to his existance...Gee Waman ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING The following question was answered on May 14, 2008 in Kansas City Star. I t answers waht is spirituality, what absence of spirituality means. P hope ypu cam post this as the start of discussion. Thank you. Arvind Khetia Q: WHAT DOES THE TERM " SPIRITUALITY " MEAN IN YOUR FAITH? Ans: The universal and inclusive nature of Hinduism is derived from its emphasis on spirituality. The sages of ancient India contemplated on the nature of consciousness and realized that there is a divine presence at the core of all existence and within all human beings. Thus, behind this material world, at a deep spiritual level of consciousness, they realized an underlying unity. To realize one's inner divinity, Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad- Gita, " The Supreme Reality is revealed in the consciousness of those who have conquered themselves. " Thus, one's spiritual quest begins with cultivating self-control, detachment, truthfulness and non- violence, and culminates in realizing the ultimate Reality within oneself and in all of the existence. Thus, according to Vedanta (spiritual philosophy of Hinduism), spirituality is not just believing, but becoming. It requires an increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all. Then, one can transcend apparent differences based on race, religion or gender, and transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. The absence of spirituality creates the delusion of separateness resulting in a false sense of superiority. Consequently, exploitation, hatred, fear and violence follows. Swami Vivekananda correctly observed that, " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality, and the death of that race begins the day that spirituality wanes and materialism gains ground. " -------------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Spiritual progress is unlike progress we measure in worldly matters. One can measure over time noting the change between two points in time. Conventionally we may say spiritual progress just to encourage sadhakas on their way to liberation. however, time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. As such the understanding happens in flashes when one is least expecting. It's " aha wow.., now I know " moments accompanied by joy due to the absence of " me " . Such moments are brief in the starting, but they become more prevalent and asserting down the road. Bottom line is that progress, for the lack of better word, is when there is increasing joy without any cause! One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God which is Life! At this point in one's sadhana, only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God(vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains... namaskara............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Prepetina, Be very careful, because of the word judge, because one may start to think, " Well I meditate twice a day, and practice sacred rituals every day, she/he doesn't. I am much further along the path! " , you may start to judge others. Remember the two birds at the fountain. A true story: During my time in Singapore, I used to pass a very small Hindu Shrine, and there was this man there busy cleaning and tidying the Shrine and its surrounds on a daily basis. When he was done he used to sit in Lotus for hours in the sun, just where the path to the Shrine met the street pavement, but to one side, so as not to obstruct, (I presume), his eyes were always open, and the merest hint of a smile on his face. I mentioned this man of so long ago to a group of people we meditate with, asking what was he doing sitting there for so long, quite a few folk agreed with the comment made by one, " He was doing Gods Work " , another said, " After all you still remember him " , I do indeed, he was my,'Silent Guru'. B.G. Chapter 9 Those who direct their thoughts to Me, Worshiping Me with steadfast mind, For them I secure what they lack And preserve that which they possess. (22) The only yardstick I see is that you have started to do that which is described in Gitaji 9:22, as you have turned towards this Satsang, (a spiritual move). My simple humble advice is to get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor). ----------------------------- There are no yardsticks as such but with spiritual practices like sewa, sadhna, satsang and meditation if done properly and regularly one can notice the changes in one's thoughts, action , behaviour etc.. When one connects with one's Self, he or she will realise that all that we see is maya or an illusion and that the only true path and the goal for our soul is to become one with the Parmatma or God. After that we are spared from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------- SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES TO DATE - Spiritual progress is unlike progress in worldly matters - spirituality is not just believing, but becoming - Spirituality is increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all, thus transcending all differences. - Absence of spirituality creates delusion of separateness/superiority - transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. - Swami Vivekananda " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality... " - time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. - understanding happens in flashes.. It's " aha wow... One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God! Life! and only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God (vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains. - get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. - Bhagwaan (The Beloved) will secure what is lacking and preserve that which you possess - Only one goal - become one with Paramatma for eternal bliss - all else is maya. there are no yardsticks - Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama, Krodh, Lobha etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi. - reduction in frequency, velocity of anger/greed/desires and They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. Divine properties of Gita 16:1-3 - Yardstick - how far he is approaching the truth/existence - one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. Rather experience surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging leads to comparison resulting in pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex). Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. - increasing joy for no external reason. state of bliss or moksha - Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind. -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram Sadhaks, Let not any reading be casual. Let us use this opportunity to study the references and make them part of our daily lives. Thank you sadhaks for the extensive references. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------- A Question How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? Are there any yardsticks prescribed in Gita/Ramayana or other Scriptures? How does one know where is he standing at present? Prepetina G ----------------------------- NEW POSTING Shree Hari || Ram Ram || Dear Sadhak, Many excellent responses have already been posted on this important question. To summarize again, few simple marks are: Feeling at peace with oneself, not waiting for a future happening to feel happy, always in a state of equanimity in favorable and unfavorable circumstances or conditions, dispassion from the world, not thinking or doing bad to anyone. The other people who come in contact with such a sadhka would observe these traits in Sadhka, in terms of good behavior and vibrations of peace etc. As has been pointed by Swamiji Maharaj - what is really the need to know the marks for spiritual progress, because the only thing this knowledge can do for one is to boost the ego, one feels proud and tends to compare himself or herself with others who may not be at par with him or her. Being concerned about progress also can prove to be a distracter from the Sadhana which suggests the Sadhka has not set his goal (union with God), firmly as of yet. The good virtues coming in the sadhaka are not a result of his or her own effort but they are bestowed upon by God's grace only, that is why these virtues are called Divine treasure (Devic Sampati), for example: Arjuna was not aware of the Divine virtues in Him, Lord Krishna says to Arjuna - " Grieve not, thou are born with divine virtues " (Gita: 16-5) and " To you who does not cavil " (Gita: 9-1) and Arjuna says too - " My delusion is destroyed, I have gained my memory through your Grace " (Gita:18-73). In Ramayana too, Hanumanji is not aware of his strength till roused by Jamavan before crossing over to Lanka. When Lord praises him about his bravery, setting a fire to Lanka etc. he says he is only a monkey who only knows how to jump from one branch of the tree to the other, all was possible due to His grace only. The subject question was also about the references in Gita and Ramayana. Depending on mental make-up and choice, each individual may follow one of the four Yogas described in Gita. Many of the traits for each discipline are elaborated through out the Gita, at certain places these traits come as clusters of gems. The virtues mostly seem to be for the Sidhas (perfected souls) only but can be taken as a goal to attain for the Sadhkas. Few of the Verses are: KARMA YOGA (Discipline of Action) - Chapter II: 38, 47-50, 55-72 Chapter III:19-20, 30, 34, 36-37 Chapter IV: 20-23, 41-42 Chapter V:. 11-12 Chapter XVIII: 6, 9, 23, 26 JNANA YOGA (Discipline of Knowledge) - Chapter IV: 9-10 34, 36, 39 Chapter V: .. 7-9, 16-28 Chapter VI: 6-29 Chapter VII: 4-5, 8-12 Chapter X: 3-5 Chapter XIII: 7-11 Chapter XIV: 14/21-26 Chapter XV: 7 Chapter XVIII: 20, 51-53 BHAKTI YOGA (Discipline of Devotion) - Chapter V: 10 Chapter VI: 30-31 Chapter VII: 19 Chapter VIII:14 Chapter IX: 14, 22, 27-28, 30-31, 34 Chapter X: 8-10 Chapter XI: 55 Chapter XII: 13-20 Chapter XV: 5 Chapter XVI: 1-3 Chapter XVIII: 55, 65-66 DHAYANA YOGA (Discipline of Self Control) - Chapter VI: 14-18, 20-25 Chapter VIII: 8-13 In Tulsidas ji's Ram-charit-manas, there are many places, the Divine traits are described as the virtues of saints. For example: In Aryana Kandha, Lord Rama describes the navda Bhakti (nine-fold devotion) to Shabri (35-4 through 36/1-5), starting with: navadha bhakti kahau tohi pahi, savadhana sunu dharau mana mahi " Listen O good lady, to My words I recognize no other kinship except that of Devotion " In Aryana Kandha again: Lord describes these virtues to Narada: samtanha ke lacchana raguubira, kahahu natha bhava bhamjana bhira ... (45/3-5) sunu muni samtanha ke guna kahau, jinha te mat unha ke basa rahau sata bikara jita anagha akama, acala aklimcana suci sukhadhama amitabodha aniha mitbhogi, satyasara kabi kobida jogi savadhana manada madhina, dhira dharma gati param praina gunagar samsara dukha rahita bigata samdeha, " (Doha #46) taji mama carana saroja priya tinha kahudeha na geha Meaning: " O Rama, who are well versed in sacred lore: tell me, my Lord Raghuvira (Hero of Raghu's lineage), the distinguished marks of saints, O dispeller of fear of transmigration. I tell you, dear sage, the qualities of saints, by virtue of which they hold Me in subjection. They are masters of six passions (lust, anger, greed, infatuation, pride and jealousy), sinless, disinterested , firm, possessing nothing, pure (both within and without), full of bliss, of boundless wisdom, desire-less, moderate in diet, truthful, inspired, learned and united with God, circumspect, bestowing honor on others, free from pride, strong-minded and highly conversant with the coursed of Dharma (righteousness). " They are abodes of virtue, above the sorrows of the world and free from doubt. Nthing besides My lotus feet is dear to them, not even their body nor their home.†In Uttara Kandha, Lord Rama describes the divine virtues again at the request of Bharata: suna cahau prabhu inha kar lacchana, krpasimdhu guna gyana bicaccahana ... (37-2) " The gory of the saints, O Lord of the Raghus, has been sung in various ways by the Vedas and Puranas. You too have exalted them by your own graceful mouth and my Lord bears great affection for them. " ... continued to Doha #38. In Uttara Kandha, Kaka Bhusandi is describing virtues of saints when requested by Garuda: para upkar bacana mana kaya, samta sahaja subhau khagraya samata sahani dukha parahit lagi, paradukha hetu asamta abhagi brurja taru sama samta hkrpala, parahita niti saha bipati bisala .. (121/ 7-8) There is no blessing to equal to the communion with the God. To be charitable to others in thought and word, O king of birds, is the innate disposition of saints. The god endure pain in the interest of others, but evil wretches do so to give others pain. Tendencies saints like the birch tree, submit to the direst distress (even allow their bark to be torn off) for the good of their neighbors. || Ram Ram || Humble pranam, Madan Kaura ----------------------------- Hari Om For the benefit of all the sadhaks, I am pleased to present an article from one of the most respected Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma which charts out progression in a sadhak's life. I hope Sadhaks will find themselves in the narration. I will appreciate views of sadhaks/ their personal experiences on the below. THE FIRST STAGE: At the end of many births , a man becomes discriminating. He reflects THUS: " Alas ! The state of worldly life is worthless. Enough of this for me. " " How do I cross the ocean of worldly existence becoming one possessed of freedom from passion? " When a person with a virtuous mind becomes intent on reflection in this manner, he attains to indifference towards worldly pleasures in his inner thoughts day after day. He undertakes and rejoices in activities of a lofty nature every day. He always hesitates in doing vulgar and stupid actions. He does not speak of the defects of others. He pursues virtuous deeds, gentle deeds not causing agitation of mind. He is constantly afraid of sin. He does not hope for enjoyment. He speaks words, tender and proper, full of affection and friendship, which words are suitable to time and place. He honours virtuous people by thought, word and deed. He looks into Scriptures of spiritual knowledge, fetching them from some where or any one. Next time: The Second Stage Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- This question is tricky and I saw that Sadhaks mention 'do surrender', 'do not judge'. Truly, Yes! But for the mind that is sometimes a question for some people. Not every one is like the ones mentioned in the stories and to have such ocassional doubt not at all a detriment to saadhana. Like for any practice the sadhana has its 'ups' and 'downs'. During the 'up' we see the inner quite and peace, which is a indicator we are making a progress. The problem comes when there are 'downs'. By 'downs', I mean that saadhak do not feel the same inner peace (for whatever reasons, which is not the discussion point here!) and so would consider he / she is down the path. What actually is happening is that sadhak is working on the 'vaasanas' or the effects of the 'vasanaas'. If sadhak is patient and continue sadhana (be it meditation, yogasanas, mantra, tantra, bhajan or satsang) with determination the saadhak will soon see the 'up' and feel the experience. The measure is (whether you consciously judge or it unconsciously happens) that in the long run we start realizing quiteness / peace more frequently. Yes, sadhana towards God is the target, while the peace / quiteness is the fall out of the same. Regards Venu Komanduri ----------------------------- The easiest and best yardstick to measure one's spiritual progress is just to look back down the line of your life and compared yourself what you were and what you are, and if you find marked difference in your attitude positively and spiritual, then you are progressing. One need not ask anybody, it is all within. Love and Love alone..... -- Paritala Gopi Krishna ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING The single most measure for self evaluation is : The ability to abide peacefully and joyfully in the present,dealing with whatever situation Existence places you, without remorse or guilt of the past, and any anxiety for the future ( results) . AUM. narinder bhandari ----------------------------- Near & Dear Prepetina G, According to your Query, there is a single and unique yardstick to measure not only our spiritual progress but also our routine work, that is all the activities was, is, and will be done by us. That is our " MANA " in the sense HEART. It is my personal request that please listen to PRAVACHAN of MAHARAJ JI of the day of April-1991, You will definitely clear your doubts. If there is a single mistake in conveying this then please forgive me. Jag Mohan ------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Jag Mohanji, please specify exact date and time of pravachan. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram --------------- Spirituality & Progress Yardstick Gita clearly specifies the attributes of behaviour of a Yogi on the path to Nirvana (Godhood). One can find out progress by the following measures: How much of time in his waking day and sleep does one remain (i) unperturbed by external events and developments (ii) work, think and act with complete concentration without any desire to seek pleasure or satisfaction, (iii) does not feel the pressure of self-ego (the idea that I am doing/ thinking/ eating) (iv) sees every person as the same as no different from himself as manifestation of God, (v) without anger irrespective of whatever happens (vi) without disappointment irrespective of whatever happens (viii) without pride.... If the percentage of time under (i) to (viii) continously increases, there is progress. Basudeb Sen ------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Judging capacity or rights to judge the progress of anyone or self solely in the hands of GOD. Normally one who experienced a little of Bagavan have to go 2/3 births still more. Examples: Sant Namdev, even after Bagavan Paruranga (Sri Krishna) had direct touch with him, he was born again as Sant Tukaram who flew to Vaikunt. Jada Bharat in Sri Bagavath Puran took 2 births and then got liberated. Ramana Rishi said that he crossed few birth to understand that world is Maya and he remained attached to SAT. There were cases were Bakthas like Vilvamangalam who was regularly playing and living with Sri Krishna was deluded by a small mistake and had to take birth as a cow, then as a snake and then as plant Tulasi in Guruvayur. The tulasi leaves were on Ekadasi day was plucked from that so called Vilvamangal Tulasi tree and garlanded to sri Krishna and there after Vilvamangalam was with Bagavan. A person aiming at medal in a race normally never succeds. But a person who runs just for race with enthusiasm wins. So if one has slight desire to measure his yardstick, only falls rather than raising. There is a beatiful example from stories of Brindavan. A calf used to looking at Sri Krishna while grassing so pathetically, got liberated. When the Jeeva of calf leaving the body (Calf body) was wittnessed by a great saint at Brindavan. Saint asked Bagavan Sri Krishna, when such a grace is going to come for him. Sri Krishna said, " Oh saint, the calf was looking at me with mind set saying that it is was expressing it`s total inability even to think of ME (Sri Krishna). So the calf had total surrender and no atom of I- ness. Where as you think you are saint, that which is obstacle for you " . Sadaks, we are desiring for infenity, SAT, unchanging bliss, so our input quality can be only measured by Bagavan. Surrender to HIM and progress. To judge your exam paper you dont do. Somebody does. This is for education and earning for survival not for liberation. Then imagine for liberation-What? Jai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan ----------------------------- Pranam Meeraji, How to create such intense longing for GOD? Varun P. Paprunia ----------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji says that when the longing is so intense for God that one remembers nothing but God and only God. Besides God, nothing is attractive. Nothing in the world is appealing, absolutely nothing else - " Ab kuch bhi nahin suhaave, ek tu hi mana bhaave. " Only You and You alone. During the day there is no hunger, nor thirst, at night there is no desire to sleep, time and time again there is that one and only one intense longing - " Din nahin bhookh, raine nahin nidraa, chin chin vyaakul hot hiyaa. " There is no laughter, there is intense uneasiness and longing - when will I behold Him!!! Meera Das Ram Ram ----------------------------- From Drops Of Nectar, chapter 27, page 41 397. In the beginning, to a sadhak God appears to be far off, then He seems closer, then sadhak sees God within his own Self, and later he sees nothing, but only God. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/englishbooks/english% 20book%20layout/The%20Drops%20Nector/main.html Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia Swamiji has said that A sadhak should judge his spiritual progress only when he is in doubt. Compared to his previous state before becoming a sadhak, he will definitely notice some difference. If he has no doubt then he should never judge himself, he should just be steadfast in his practice. If he starts judging then there are some pitfalls: 1. Complacency - If he becomes complacent at his present state then he will not strive for further perfection. Also the present state of peacefulness will not last because attachment of sattvik also leads to bondage. " Sattvagun binds through attachment of peace and knowledge " (Gita 14.6) It does not mean that sadhak does not has to respect peace and knowledge of sattvagun. He has to respect that peace and also protect it because that will only lead to emancipation. " But the self-controlled sadhak, while enjoying the various sense- objects through his senses, which are disciplined and free from likes and dislikes, attains of placidity of mind. With the attainment of such placidity of mind, all his sorrows come to an end; and the intellect of such a tranquil mind soon withdrawing itself from all sides, becomes firmly established in God " (Gita 2.64- 65) " The peace of yogarudh (one who is tranquil) sadhak is way to blessedness " (Gita 6.3) He has to respect sattvagun but not get attached to it. 2. Ego - There is always a fear of this ego - 'I am a good sadhak'. This will definitely spell doom for him. This is related to first point but I'm specifying it as different point because this is the most dangerous. To make him aware of this mistake, God sends unfavorable circumstances. 3. Mine-ness with inert - When a sadhak judges himself he judges them only by looking into mind, intellect, nature etc. The problem here is that with whom sadhak has to break his affinity he is looking into those things. The Self does not change, it remains as it is. Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING How much love you have developed for Bhagwaan. How much do you remember Bhagwaan, just like lovers (lover and the loved). IN HINDI Bhagwan ke prati kitna pyar hua hai Unki kitni yaad aati hai. Just like premi & premika Thanx Raja Gurdasani --------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji says that the less that we are attracted to the world and the more that our attraction, attachment, devotion to God increases, that much we have progressed spiritually. On having made spiritual progress, there is less attachment (passion, attraction, likes, desires) and aversion (dislikes, hatred, enmity) in worldly relations. There is less elation and dejection in worldly affairs. There is less pleasure or pain from worldly gains and losses. There is a peaceful feeling, ever cheerfulness and contentment. Meera Das Ram Ram --------------------- Best way to " judge " spiritual progress is in the absence of any yardsticks to measure the same as well as anything else. Best " yard stick " to measure spiritual progress is the absence of any need to judge the same as well as anything else. Absence of judgment as well as measurement altogether is The Spirituality. If at all one insists for one ... The Happiness is the " yard stick " to " measure " as well as the " basis " to " judge " one's spiritual progress ... because, The Happiness is the one that REQUIRES absence of both the qualities - judgment and measurement ... as far as one does not attempt to use The Happiness as an instrument to judge or measure anything as such. Respects. Naga Narayana ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING As the understanding gets deeper with experience and start getting near the true natural state...... there is increasing joy .......for no outside reasons........This means good progress....... When this inner happiness is not disturbed at all.....gets stabilized..... That is the state of bliss or moksha.....connection to the supercomputer of the universe... Self assessment or assessment by others of higher consciousness levels may be necessary to know if the direction needs correction.....But it is all very tricky. Mind plays in many ways and even a single thought could stop the progress further...... Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind... Wonderful way of knowing self............................. Sushil Jain ----------------------------- Hari Om Yardsticks as sought by you based on Swamiji's discourses and Gitaji: 1 The bouts of anger/greed are not now that frequent as they were in the past. 2 They don't come now with that high velocity and ferocity as they used into the past. 3 They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. 4 Divine properties as described in the BG 16:1 to 16:3 have started manifesting into you. Like fearlessness, clean conscience, austerity, tolerance, truthfulness, easyness, strightforwardness, non violence, giving to other, reading of holy scriptures, non fickleness, a shame in doing evil , radiance, forgiveness, etc In fact your spiritual progress can be judged from above yardsticks. Anger reduces, the frequency reduces, it remains for lesser time than in the past. I may add here that it is not very beneficial for a sadhak to keep observing as where does he stand in spiritual progress. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj also stated that one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. It is not a matter of worry but surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging also gives rise to comparison with another and then arises either pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex) . Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- Dear Sadak, Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama (desires), Krodh (anger), Lobha (greed) etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi (devotion and worship of God). B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- Dear Sadhkas, Namaskar It is good question...How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? I feel, by analysing the existing concepts of spirituality, he can know how far he is approaching the truth...the facts connected to his existance...Gee Waman ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING The following question was answered on May 14, 2008 in Kansas City Star. I t answers waht is spirituality, what absence of spirituality means. P hope ypu cam post this as the start of discussion. Thank you. Arvind Khetia Q: WHAT DOES THE TERM " SPIRITUALITY " MEAN IN YOUR FAITH? Ans: The universal and inclusive nature of Hinduism is derived from its emphasis on spirituality. The sages of ancient India contemplated on the nature of consciousness and realized that there is a divine presence at the core of all existence and within all human beings. Thus, behind this material world, at a deep spiritual level of consciousness, they realized an underlying unity. To realize one's inner divinity, Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad- Gita, " The Supreme Reality is revealed in the consciousness of those who have conquered themselves. " Thus, one's spiritual quest begins with cultivating self-control, detachment, truthfulness and non- violence, and culminates in realizing the ultimate Reality within oneself and in all of the existence. Thus, according to Vedanta (spiritual philosophy of Hinduism), spirituality is not just believing, but becoming. It requires an increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all. Then, one can transcend apparent differences based on race, religion or gender, and transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. The absence of spirituality creates the delusion of separateness resulting in a false sense of superiority. Consequently, exploitation, hatred, fear and violence follows. Swami Vivekananda correctly observed that, " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality, and the death of that race begins the day that spirituality wanes and materialism gains ground. " -------------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Spiritual progress is unlike progress we measure in worldly matters. One can measure over time noting the change between two points in time. Conventionally we may say spiritual progress just to encourage sadhakas on their way to liberation. however, time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. As such the understanding happens in flashes when one is least expecting. It's " aha wow.., now I know " moments accompanied by joy due to the absence of " me " . Such moments are brief in the starting, but they become more prevalent and asserting down the road. Bottom line is that progress, for the lack of better word, is when there is increasing joy without any cause! One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God which is Life! At this point in one's sadhana, only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God(vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains... namaskara............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Prepetina, Be very careful, because of the word judge, because one may start to think, " Well I meditate twice a day, and practice sacred rituals every day, she/he doesn't. I am much further along the path! " , you may start to judge others. Remember the two birds at the fountain. A true story: During my time in Singapore, I used to pass a very small Hindu Shrine, and there was this man there busy cleaning and tidying the Shrine and its surrounds on a daily basis. When he was done he used to sit in Lotus for hours in the sun, just where the path to the Shrine met the street pavement, but to one side, so as not to obstruct, (I presume), his eyes were always open, and the merest hint of a smile on his face. I mentioned this man of so long ago to a group of people we meditate with, asking what was he doing sitting there for so long, quite a few folk agreed with the comment made by one, " He was doing Gods Work " , another said, " After all you still remember him " , I do indeed, he was my,'Silent Guru'. B.G. Chapter 9 Those who direct their thoughts to Me, Worshiping Me with steadfast mind, For them I secure what they lack And preserve that which they possess. (22) The only yardstick I see is that you have started to do that which is described in Gitaji 9:22, as you have turned towards this Satsang, (a spiritual move). My simple humble advice is to get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor). ----------------------------- There are no yardsticks as such but with spiritual practices like sewa, sadhna, satsang and meditation if done properly and regularly one can notice the changes in one's thoughts, action , behaviour etc.. When one connects with one's Self, he or she will realise that all that we see is maya or an illusion and that the only true path and the goal for our soul is to become one with the Parmatma or God. After that we are spared from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------- SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES TO DATE - Spiritual progress is unlike progress in worldly matters - spirituality is not just believing, but becoming - Spirituality is increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all, thus transcending all differences. - Absence of spirituality creates delusion of separateness/superiority - transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. - Swami Vivekananda " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality... " - time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. - understanding happens in flashes.. It's " aha wow... One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God! Life! and only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God (vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains. - get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. - Bhagwaan (The Beloved) will secure what is lacking and preserve that which you possess - Only one goal - become one with Paramatma for eternal bliss - all else is maya. there are no yardsticks - Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama, Krodh, Lobha etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi. - reduction in frequency, velocity of anger/greed/desires and They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. Divine properties of Gita 16:1-3 - Yardstick - how far he is approaching the truth/existence - one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. Rather experience surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging leads to comparison resulting in pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex). Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. - increasing joy for no external reason. state of bliss or moksha - Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind. -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram Sadhaks, Let not any reading be casual. Let us use this opportunity to study the references and make them part of our daily lives. Thank you sadhaks for the extensive references. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------- A Question How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? Are there any yardsticks prescribed in Gita/Ramayana or other Scriptures? How does one know where is he standing at present? Prepetina G ----------------------------- NEW POSTING Hari Om We discussed conduct of a Sadhak in the first stage. I hope a majority of sadhaks of this Forum might have found themselves crossing that stage ! In second stage, Sadhak starts looking at Scriptures deeply in order to determine his conduct. Brother Mike ! Any personal experiences to share especially re the second stage? THE SECOND STAGE: He resorts to pre-eminent scholars, well known by their foremost exposition of Veds-s , texts of ethical and religious codes, virtuous conduct, concentration, meditation and rituals. Familiar with the division or arrangement of words and their meanings, he knows the settled rule relating to what ought to be done and what ought not to be done, as a householder knows his house. He gets rid of excessive pride, self conceit, jeolousy, delusion and greed, even dwelling outwardly a little in his worldly life, necessitated by circumstances, as a snake gets rid of its skin. One whose intellect is in this state, duly learns completely , along with the esoteric teachings, from following or devotion to Scriptures , the spiritual preceptor and wise (vituous ) persons ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------ Dear Sadhak Every body's progress towards spiritual development can be flt by the person himself.When Mirabai was singing the song of Lord Krishna then sometime she was crying and many time she was in estacy.Somiliarly was the case of Sri Chaitainya Maihaprabhu who was acting like Mirabai When we forget things in the service of God then we are nearer to God Sri Narsinh Mehta was reciting bhajan he forgot his own work.The same was the case of Gopis who were reciting the name of Gopal instead f milk or dahi which they have to sell. We have examin any such thing happening to us We achieve intutive power.We get the power to offer prayers for others These are the sing of spiritual developent These are my experiences at the age of eighty five ll my experiences are noted in my book on " Prayers of all Religions of the world. " May God Bless all Sadhaks who reading these Gita talks. Gita must be read alway only one chapter then see the result Sing Rama Dhuna at leaat for ten minutes and observe its result. There are many things to learn from saints like person.Gita talk can help us a lot Truly yours Shankerprasad S Bhatt ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari || Ram Ram || Dear Sadhak, Many excellent responses have already been posted on this important question. To summarize again, few simple marks are: Feeling at peace with oneself, not waiting for a future happening to feel happy, always in a state of equanimity in favorable and unfavorable circumstances or conditions, dispassion from the world, not thinking or doing bad to anyone. The other people who come in contact with such a sadhka would observe these traits in Sadhka, in terms of good behavior and vibrations of peace etc. As has been pointed by Swamiji Maharaj - what is really the need to know the marks for spiritual progress, because the only thing this knowledge can do for one is to boost the ego, one feels proud and tends to compare himself or herself with others who may not be at par with him or her. Being concerned about progress also can prove to be a distracter from the Sadhana which suggests the Sadhka has not set his goal (union with God), firmly as of yet. The good virtues coming in the sadhaka are not a result of his or her own effort but they are bestowed upon by God's grace only, that is why these virtues are called Divine treasure (Devic Sampati), for example: Arjuna was not aware of the Divine virtues in Him, Lord Krishna says to Arjuna - " Grieve not, thou are born with divine virtues " (Gita: 16-5) and " To you who does not cavil " (Gita: 9-1) and Arjuna says too - " My delusion is destroyed, I have gained my memory through your Grace " (Gita:18-73). In Ramayana too, Hanumanji is not aware of his strength till roused by Jamavan before crossing over to Lanka. When Lord praises him about his bravery, setting a fire to Lanka etc. he says he is only a monkey who only knows how to jump from one branch of the tree to the other, all was possible due to His grace only. The subject question was also about the references in Gita and Ramayana. Depending on mental make-up and choice, each individual may follow one of the four Yogas described in Gita. Many of the traits for each discipline are elaborated through out the Gita, at certain places these traits come as clusters of gems. The virtues mostly seem to be for the Sidhas (perfected souls) only but can be taken as a goal to attain for the Sadhkas. Few of the Verses are: KARMA YOGA (Discipline of Action) - Chapter II: 38, 47-50, 55-72 Chapter III:19-20, 30, 34, 36-37 Chapter IV: 20-23, 41-42 Chapter V:. 11-12 Chapter XVIII: 6, 9, 23, 26 JNANA YOGA (Discipline of Knowledge) - Chapter IV: 9-10 34, 36, 39 Chapter V: .. 7-9, 16-28 Chapter VI: 6-29 Chapter VII: 4-5, 8-12 Chapter X: 3-5 Chapter XIII: 7-11 Chapter XIV: 14/21-26 Chapter XV: 7 Chapter XVIII: 20, 51-53 BHAKTI YOGA (Discipline of Devotion) - Chapter V: 10 Chapter VI: 30-31 Chapter VII: 19 Chapter VIII:14 Chapter IX: 14, 22, 27-28, 30-31, 34 Chapter X: 8-10 Chapter XI: 55 Chapter XII: 13-20 Chapter XV: 5 Chapter XVI: 1-3 Chapter XVIII: 55, 65-66 DHAYANA YOGA (Discipline of Self Control) - Chapter VI: 14-18, 20-25 Chapter VIII: 8-13 In Tulsidas ji's Ram-charit-manas, there are many places, the Divine traits are described as the virtues of saints. For example: In Aryana Kandha, Lord Rama describes the navda Bhakti (nine-fold devotion) to Shabri (35-4 through 36/1-5), starting with: navadha bhakti kahau tohi pahi, savadhana sunu dharau mana mahi " Listen O good lady, to My words I recognize no other kinship except that of Devotion " In Aryana Kandha again: Lord describes these virtues to Narada: samtanha ke lacchana raguubira, kahahu natha bhava bhamjana bhira ... (45/3-5) sunu muni samtanha ke guna kahau, jinha te mat unha ke basa rahau sata bikara jita anagha akama, acala aklimcana suci sukhadhama amitabodha aniha mitbhogi, satyasara kabi kobida jogi savadhana manada madhina, dhira dharma gati param praina gunagar samsara dukha rahita bigata samdeha, " (Doha #46) taji mama carana saroja priya tinha kahudeha na geha Meaning: " O Rama, who are well versed in sacred lore: tell me, my Lord Raghuvira (Hero of Raghu's lineage), the distinguished marks of saints, O dispeller of fear of transmigration. I tell you, dear sage, the qualities of saints, by virtue of which they hold Me in subjection. They are masters of six passions (lust, anger, greed, infatuation, pride and jealousy), sinless, disinterested , firm, possessing nothing, pure (both within and without), full of bliss, of boundless wisdom, desire-less, moderate in diet, truthful, inspired, learned and united with God, circumspect, bestowing honor on others, free from pride, strong-minded and highly conversant with the coursed of Dharma (righteousness). " They are abodes of virtue, above the sorrows of the world and free from doubt. Nthing besides My lotus feet is dear to them, not even their body nor their home.†In Uttara Kandha, Lord Rama describes the divine virtues again at the request of Bharata: suna cahau prabhu inha kar lacchana, krpasimdhu guna gyana bicaccahana ... (37-2) " The gory of the saints, O Lord of the Raghus, has been sung in various ways by the Vedas and Puranas. You too have exalted them by your own graceful mouth and my Lord bears great affection for them. " ... continued to Doha #38. In Uttara Kandha, Kaka Bhusandi is describing virtues of saints when requested by Garuda: para upkar bacana mana kaya, samta sahaja subhau khagraya samata sahani dukha parahit lagi, paradukha hetu asamta abhagi brurja taru sama samta hkrpala, parahita niti saha bipati bisala .. (121/ 7-8) There is no blessing to equal to the communion with the God. To be charitable to others in thought and word, O king of birds, is the innate disposition of saints. The god endure pain in the interest of others, but evil wretches do so to give others pain. Tendencies saints like the birch tree, submit to the direst distress (even allow their bark to be torn off) for the good of their neighbors. || Ram Ram || Humble pranam, Madan Kaura ----------------------------- Hari Om For the benefit of all the sadhaks, I am pleased to present an article from one of the most respected Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma which charts out progression in a sadhak's life. I hope Sadhaks will find themselves in the narration. I will appreciate views of sadhaks/ their personal experiences on the below. THE FIRST STAGE: At the end of many births , a man becomes discriminating. He reflects THUS: " Alas ! The state of worldly life is worthless. Enough of this for me. " " How do I cross the ocean of worldly existence becoming one possessed of freedom from passion? " When a person with a virtuous mind becomes intent on reflection in this manner, he attains to indifference towards worldly pleasures in his inner thoughts day after day. He undertakes and rejoices in activities of a lofty nature every day. He always hesitates in doing vulgar and stupid actions. He does not speak of the defects of others. He pursues virtuous deeds, gentle deeds not causing agitation of mind. He is constantly afraid of sin. He does not hope for enjoyment. He speaks words, tender and proper, full of affection and friendship, which words are suitable to time and place. He honours virtuous people by thought, word and deed. He looks into Scriptures of spiritual knowledge, fetching them from some where or any one. Next time: The Second Stage Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- This question is tricky and I saw that Sadhaks mention 'do surrender', 'do not judge'. Truly, Yes! But for the mind that is sometimes a question for some people. Not every one is like the ones mentioned in the stories and to have such ocassional doubt not at all a detriment to saadhana. Like for any practice the sadhana has its 'ups' and 'downs'. During the 'up' we see the inner quite and peace, which is a indicator we are making a progress. The problem comes when there are 'downs'. By 'downs', I mean that saadhak do not feel the same inner peace (for whatever reasons, which is not the discussion point here!) and so would consider he / she is down the path. What actually is happening is that sadhak is working on the 'vaasanas' or the effects of the 'vasanaas'. If sadhak is patient and continue sadhana (be it meditation, yogasanas, mantra, tantra, bhajan or satsang) with determination the saadhak will soon see the 'up' and feel the experience. The measure is (whether you consciously judge or it unconsciously happens) that in the long run we start realizing quiteness / peace more frequently. Yes, sadhana towards God is the target, while the peace / quiteness is the fall out of the same. Regards Venu Komanduri ----------------------------- The easiest and best yardstick to measure one's spiritual progress is just to look back down the line of your life and compared yourself what you were and what you are, and if you find marked difference in your attitude positively and spiritual, then you are progressing. One need not ask anybody, it is all within. Love and Love alone..... -- Paritala Gopi Krishna ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING The single most measure for self evaluation is : The ability to abide peacefully and joyfully in the present,dealing with whatever situation Existence places you, without remorse or guilt of the past, and any anxiety for the future ( results) . AUM. narinder bhandari ----------------------------- Near & Dear Prepetina G, According to your Query, there is a single and unique yardstick to measure not only our spiritual progress but also our routine work, that is all the activities was, is, and will be done by us. That is our " MANA " in the sense HEART. It is my personal request that please listen to PRAVACHAN of MAHARAJ JI of the day of April-1991, You will definitely clear your doubts. If there is a single mistake in conveying this then please forgive me. Jag Mohan ------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Jag Mohanji, please specify exact date and time of pravachan. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram --------------- Spirituality & Progress Yardstick Gita clearly specifies the attributes of behaviour of a Yogi on the path to Nirvana (Godhood). One can find out progress by the following measures: How much of time in his waking day and sleep does one remain (i) unperturbed by external events and developments (ii) work, think and act with complete concentration without any desire to seek pleasure or satisfaction, (iii) does not feel the pressure of self-ego (the idea that I am doing/ thinking/ eating) (iv) sees every person as the same as no different from himself as manifestation of God, (v) without anger irrespective of whatever happens (vi) without disappointment irrespective of whatever happens (viii) without pride.... If the percentage of time under (i) to (viii) continously increases, there is progress. Basudeb Sen ------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Judging capacity or rights to judge the progress of anyone or self solely in the hands of GOD. Normally one who experienced a little of Bagavan have to go 2/3 births still more. Examples: Sant Namdev, even after Bagavan Paruranga (Sri Krishna) had direct touch with him, he was born again as Sant Tukaram who flew to Vaikunt. Jada Bharat in Sri Bagavath Puran took 2 births and then got liberated. Ramana Rishi said that he crossed few birth to understand that world is Maya and he remained attached to SAT. There were cases were Bakthas like Vilvamangalam who was regularly playing and living with Sri Krishna was deluded by a small mistake and had to take birth as a cow, then as a snake and then as plant Tulasi in Guruvayur. The tulasi leaves were on Ekadasi day was plucked from that so called Vilvamangal Tulasi tree and garlanded to sri Krishna and there after Vilvamangalam was with Bagavan. A person aiming at medal in a race normally never succeds. But a person who runs just for race with enthusiasm wins. So if one has slight desire to measure his yardstick, only falls rather than raising. There is a beatiful example from stories of Brindavan. A calf used to looking at Sri Krishna while grassing so pathetically, got liberated. When the Jeeva of calf leaving the body (Calf body) was wittnessed by a great saint at Brindavan. Saint asked Bagavan Sri Krishna, when such a grace is going to come for him. Sri Krishna said, " Oh saint, the calf was looking at me with mind set saying that it is was expressing it`s total inability even to think of ME (Sri Krishna). So the calf had total surrender and no atom of I- ness. Where as you think you are saint, that which is obstacle for you " . Sadaks, we are desiring for infenity, SAT, unchanging bliss, so our input quality can be only measured by Bagavan. Surrender to HIM and progress. To judge your exam paper you dont do. Somebody does. This is for education and earning for survival not for liberation. Then imagine for liberation-What? Jai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan ----------------------------- Pranam Meeraji, How to create such intense longing for GOD? Varun P. Paprunia ----------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji says that when the longing is so intense for God that one remembers nothing but God and only God. Besides God, nothing is attractive. Nothing in the world is appealing, absolutely nothing else - " Ab kuch bhi nahin suhaave, ek tu hi mana bhaave. " Only You and You alone. During the day there is no hunger, nor thirst, at night there is no desire to sleep, time and time again there is that one and only one intense longing - " Din nahin bhookh, raine nahin nidraa, chin chin vyaakul hot hiyaa. " There is no laughter, there is intense uneasiness and longing - when will I behold Him!!! Meera Das Ram Ram ----------------------------- From Drops Of Nectar, chapter 27, page 41 397. In the beginning, to a sadhak God appears to be far off, then He seems closer, then sadhak sees God within his own Self, and later he sees nothing, but only God. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/englishbooks/english% 20book%20layout/The%20Drops%20Nector/main.html Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia Swamiji has said that A sadhak should judge his spiritual progress only when he is in doubt. Compared to his previous state before becoming a sadhak, he will definitely notice some difference. If he has no doubt then he should never judge himself, he should just be steadfast in his practice. If he starts judging then there are some pitfalls: 1. Complacency - If he becomes complacent at his present state then he will not strive for further perfection. Also the present state of peacefulness will not last because attachment of sattvik also leads to bondage. " Sattvagun binds through attachment of peace and knowledge " (Gita 14.6) It does not mean that sadhak does not has to respect peace and knowledge of sattvagun. He has to respect that peace and also protect it because that will only lead to emancipation. " But the self-controlled sadhak, while enjoying the various sense- objects through his senses, which are disciplined and free from likes and dislikes, attains of placidity of mind. With the attainment of such placidity of mind, all his sorrows come to an end; and the intellect of such a tranquil mind soon withdrawing itself from all sides, becomes firmly established in God " (Gita 2.64- 65) " The peace of yogarudh (one who is tranquil) sadhak is way to blessedness " (Gita 6.3) He has to respect sattvagun but not get attached to it. 2. Ego - There is always a fear of this ego - 'I am a good sadhak'. This will definitely spell doom for him. This is related to first point but I'm specifying it as different point because this is the most dangerous. To make him aware of this mistake, God sends unfavorable circumstances. 3. Mine-ness with inert - When a sadhak judges himself he judges them only by looking into mind, intellect, nature etc. The problem here is that with whom sadhak has to break his affinity he is looking into those things. The Self does not change, it remains as it is. Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING How much love you have developed for Bhagwaan. How much do you remember Bhagwaan, just like lovers (lover and the loved). IN HINDI Bhagwan ke prati kitna pyar hua hai Unki kitni yaad aati hai. Just like premi & premika Thanx Raja Gurdasani --------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji says that the less that we are attracted to the world and the more that our attraction, attachment, devotion to God increases, that much we have progressed spiritually. On having made spiritual progress, there is less attachment (passion, attraction, likes, desires) and aversion (dislikes, hatred, enmity) in worldly relations. There is less elation and dejection in worldly affairs. There is less pleasure or pain from worldly gains and losses. There is a peaceful feeling, ever cheerfulness and contentment. Meera Das Ram Ram --------------------- Best way to " judge " spiritual progress is in the absence of any yardsticks to measure the same as well as anything else. Best " yard stick " to measure spiritual progress is the absence of any need to judge the same as well as anything else. Absence of judgment as well as measurement altogether is The Spirituality. If at all one insists for one ... The Happiness is the " yard stick " to " measure " as well as the " basis " to " judge " one's spiritual progress ... because, The Happiness is the one that REQUIRES absence of both the qualities - judgment and measurement ... as far as one does not attempt to use The Happiness as an instrument to judge or measure anything as such. Respects. Naga Narayana ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING As the understanding gets deeper with experience and start getting near the true natural state...... there is increasing joy .......for no outside reasons........This means good progress....... When this inner happiness is not disturbed at all.....gets stabilized..... That is the state of bliss or moksha.....connection to the supercomputer of the universe... Self assessment or assessment by others of higher consciousness levels may be necessary to know if the direction needs correction.....But it is all very tricky. Mind plays in many ways and even a single thought could stop the progress further...... Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind... Wonderful way of knowing self............................. Sushil Jain ----------------------------- Hari Om Yardsticks as sought by you based on Swamiji's discourses and Gitaji: 1 The bouts of anger/greed are not now that frequent as they were in the past. 2 They don't come now with that high velocity and ferocity as they used into the past. 3 They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. 4 Divine properties as described in the BG 16:1 to 16:3 have started manifesting into you. Like fearlessness, clean conscience, austerity, tolerance, truthfulness, easyness, strightforwardness, non violence, giving to other, reading of holy scriptures, non fickleness, a shame in doing evil , radiance, forgiveness, etc In fact your spiritual progress can be judged from above yardsticks. Anger reduces, the frequency reduces, it remains for lesser time than in the past. I may add here that it is not very beneficial for a sadhak to keep observing as where does he stand in spiritual progress. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj also stated that one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. It is not a matter of worry but surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging also gives rise to comparison with another and then arises either pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex) . Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- Dear Sadak, Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama (desires), Krodh (anger), Lobha (greed) etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi (devotion and worship of God). B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- Dear Sadhkas, Namaskar It is good question...How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? I feel, by analysing the existing concepts of spirituality, he can know how far he is approaching the truth...the facts connected to his existance...Gee Waman ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING The following question was answered on May 14, 2008 in Kansas City Star. I t answers waht is spirituality, what absence of spirituality means. P hope ypu cam post this as the start of discussion. Thank you. Arvind Khetia Q: WHAT DOES THE TERM " SPIRITUALITY " MEAN IN YOUR FAITH? Ans: The universal and inclusive nature of Hinduism is derived from its emphasis on spirituality. The sages of ancient India contemplated on the nature of consciousness and realized that there is a divine presence at the core of all existence and within all human beings. Thus, behind this material world, at a deep spiritual level of consciousness, they realized an underlying unity. To realize one's inner divinity, Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad- Gita, " The Supreme Reality is revealed in the consciousness of those who have conquered themselves. " Thus, one's spiritual quest begins with cultivating self-control, detachment, truthfulness and non- violence, and culminates in realizing the ultimate Reality within oneself and in all of the existence. Thus, according to Vedanta (spiritual philosophy of Hinduism), spirituality is not just believing, but becoming. It requires an increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all. Then, one can transcend apparent differences based on race, religion or gender, and transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. The absence of spirituality creates the delusion of separateness resulting in a false sense of superiority. Consequently, exploitation, hatred, fear and violence follows. Swami Vivekananda correctly observed that, " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality, and the death of that race begins the day that spirituality wanes and materialism gains ground. " -------------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Spiritual progress is unlike progress we measure in worldly matters. One can measure over time noting the change between two points in time. Conventionally we may say spiritual progress just to encourage sadhakas on their way to liberation. however, time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. As such the understanding happens in flashes when one is least expecting. It's " aha wow.., now I know " moments accompanied by joy due to the absence of " me " . Such moments are brief in the starting, but they become more prevalent and asserting down the road. Bottom line is that progress, for the lack of better word, is when there is increasing joy without any cause! One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God which is Life! At this point in one's sadhana, only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God(vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains... namaskara............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Prepetina, Be very careful, because of the word judge, because one may start to think, " Well I meditate twice a day, and practice sacred rituals every day, she/he doesn't. I am much further along the path! " , you may start to judge others. Remember the two birds at the fountain. A true story: During my time in Singapore, I used to pass a very small Hindu Shrine, and there was this man there busy cleaning and tidying the Shrine and its surrounds on a daily basis. When he was done he used to sit in Lotus for hours in the sun, just where the path to the Shrine met the street pavement, but to one side, so as not to obstruct, (I presume), his eyes were always open, and the merest hint of a smile on his face. I mentioned this man of so long ago to a group of people we meditate with, asking what was he doing sitting there for so long, quite a few folk agreed with the comment made by one, " He was doing Gods Work " , another said, " After all you still remember him " , I do indeed, he was my,'Silent Guru'. B.G. Chapter 9 Those who direct their thoughts to Me, Worshiping Me with steadfast mind, For them I secure what they lack And preserve that which they possess. (22) The only yardstick I see is that you have started to do that which is described in Gitaji 9:22, as you have turned towards this Satsang, (a spiritual move). My simple humble advice is to get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor). ----------------------------- There are no yardsticks as such but with spiritual practices like sewa, sadhna, satsang and meditation if done properly and regularly one can notice the changes in one's thoughts, action , behaviour etc.. When one connects with one's Self, he or she will realise that all that we see is maya or an illusion and that the only true path and the goal for our soul is to become one with the Parmatma or God. After that we are spared from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------- SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES TO DATE - Spiritual progress is unlike progress in worldly matters - spirituality is not just believing, but becoming - Spirituality is increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all, thus transcending all differences. - Absence of spirituality creates delusion of separateness/superiority - transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. - Swami Vivekananda " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality... " - time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. - understanding happens in flashes.. It's " aha wow... One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God! Life! and only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God (vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains. - get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. - Bhagwaan (The Beloved) will secure what is lacking and preserve that which you possess - Only one goal - become one with Paramatma for eternal bliss - all else is maya. there are no yardsticks - Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama, Krodh, Lobha etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi. - reduction in frequency, velocity of anger/greed/desires and They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. Divine properties of Gita 16:1-3 - Yardstick - how far he is approaching the truth/existence - one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. Rather experience surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging leads to comparison resulting in pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex). Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. - increasing joy for no external reason. state of bliss or moksha - Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind. -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram Sadhaks, Let not any reading be casual. Let us use this opportunity to study the references and make them part of our daily lives. Thank you sadhaks for the extensive references. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------- A Question How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? Are there any yardsticks prescribed in Gita/Ramayana or other Scriptures? How does one know where is he standing at present? Prepetina G ----------------------------- NEW POSTING Dear Sadaks, Yardstick answer is: While just hearing Bagwan name the hair should stand, tears should come, body will feel ecstasy. Ref: Brindarinya Upanashid. Even Bagavan says similar words in Geetha at One instance This just like on hearing your most loved one` s name who is far away. Dont you feel heart felt joy. So when you are close to Bagavan alone you experience bliss. Jai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ Hari Om Indeed Sadhaks should attain momentum, as suggested by Divine Moderators of this GT Group. The third of the total 7 stages must encourage many to pursue the divine path : THE THIRD STAGE Having applied his mind steadily to the meaning (bhavas) of the words of Scriptures properly, he wears out his extended life seated on a couch of stone, with his rests in the hermitages of ascetics and with his participation in courses of narration concerning the Supreme Spirit, which blame worldly life and which are equally the steps in producing indifference to the world. INDIFFERENCE TO THE WORLD !! Ordinary Non attachment " Everything brought into existence by previous actions (pleasure or pain), is only dependent on God. What is my doership in the matter? The enjoyments of objects of pleasure are intense diseases. Riches are great misfortunes. Associations are only for separation. Anxieties are diseases of mind. Time is engaged in swallowing up all beings continuously " The annihilation ( " Fana " in Brother Mike's words ! ) of mental inclinations inwardly in the above manner, due to INDIFFERENCE of one with a mind fastened to the meanings of the sentences of Scriptures , is that ORDINARY NON-ATTACHMENT !! Dear Sadhaks ! Keep deliberating as to where each of us is placed and why? What prevents us from moving forward ? Feel free ! Feel enthusiastic ! Throw ego into the dust bin while expressing ! The best is on the way to touch your soul ! Next : The best non- attachment: The Fourth Stage Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------------------------- " If each year, the number of things or events, which can arouse your anger or lust grows smaller, you are making progress; if it remains the same, you are stagnating; if it increases, your spiritual development is regressing. " by: Paramacharya, Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham, Kanchi. Paritala Gopi Krishna ----------------------------- -Shree Hari- Brother Vyas, Reflecting on your invitation to share personal experiences, on the 'second stage', I printed your list so can I think about it as I type. Now during my time of change I found much support, in a sense I really did not have to look too hard it was always there, this I believe to be universal to all seekers, regardless of creed.(This is in agreement with Gitaji). For many years,(decades), I scrutinized scripture, (Christian), dissected customs, festivals holy days. I got hold of the earliest Greek/English text, I felt I was being assaulted by waves of blind dogma, blind worship. I was horrified with what mother church had done through history, to innocent cultures and people, and I felt sickened to my soul. You see dear Sadhaks, I remained spiritual through all this, never rejecting GOD. But I felt very, very, alone, like I was in a spiritual wilderness. In this dark time, I then suffered from agonizing pain that lasted for about a year, made me a virtual cripple. Oddly enough I was always drawn towards meditation, for so long I can't remember. My pride and ego took a hammering, through the pain, through my bewilderment, I realize now,(looking back), I was heading into what in the West is known as the 'Dark Night of the Soul', very few will talk about it,(I expect the Indian traditions have their own name for it, probably something to do with Shakti). Things got far worse, but I will not talk about it. But you see it is in that 'Dark Place', that you see the Rising Sun, the Light of Beloved. You NEVER come out of this place the way you go in, this Dark place is full of Grace you see. There is so much more, but suffice to say the points Brother Vyas made, in general, are a natural outcome of this process. Prepetinaji don't worry that was my soul chosen way. Yours could be all laughter and light. All Sadhaks have their story, I expect you have yours Brother Vyas. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor) ------------------------------ Hari Om I humbly suggest the following as good indicators of Spiritual Progress: - an incredible sense of calm, serenity, and absolute lack of concern or worry about anything. Lack of concern does not mean you are careless and reckless and ignore danger. And, those who are well- advanced in Spirituality do not have to make an attempt to be calm or still, even in the face of disastrous events. - a great yearning for anything that represents or is connected with Bhagavan, e.g. devotional music, scriptures, literature, company of sadhaks, and discussions on Spiritual matters. - no complaints, no shouting, no loud words, almost totally oblivious of the world around you, perfectly satisfied with whatever material possessions you have, e.g. clothes, car, home, food, furniture etc. - you seem to be surrounded by a aura of divinity and spirituality ( you are not! Lose the false ego): total strangers smile as they approach you, become friendly and relaxed in your presence, respect and even accept your views, and they have an intense desire to associate with you. - most of all, you genuinely believe there is a spark of divinity in every human being and you want to devote every moment of your life to serve others. Krishna S. Narinedath ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om We discussed conduct of a Sadhak in the first stage. I hope a majority of sadhaks of this Forum might have found themselves crossing that stage ! In second stage, Sadhak starts looking at Scriptures deeply in order to determine his conduct. Brother Mike ! Any personal experiences to share especially re the second stage? THE SECOND STAGE: He resorts to pre-eminent scholars, well known by their foremost exposition of Veds-s , texts of ethical and religious codes, virtuous conduct, concentration, meditation and rituals. Familiar with the division or arrangement of words and their meanings, he knows the settled rule relating to what ought to be done and what ought not to be done, as a householder knows his house. He gets rid of excessive pride, self conceit, jeolousy, delusion and greed, even dwelling outwardly a little in his worldly life, necessitated by circumstances, as a snake gets rid of its skin. One whose intellect is in this state, duly learns completely , along with the esoteric teachings, from following or devotion to Scriptures , the spiritual preceptor and wise (vituous ) persons ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------ Dear Sadhak Every body's progress towards spiritual development can be flt by the person himself.When Mirabai was singing the song of Lord Krishna then sometime she was crying and many time she was in estacy.Somiliarly was the case of Sri Chaitainya Maihaprabhu who was acting like Mirabai When we forget things in the service of God then we are nearer to God Sri Narsinh Mehta was reciting bhajan he forgot his own work.The same was the case of Gopis who were reciting the name of Gopal instead f milk or dahi which they have to sell. We have examin any such thing happening to us We achieve intutive power.We get the power to offer prayers for others These are the sing of spiritual developent These are my experiences at the age of eighty five ll my experiences are noted in my book on " Prayers of all Religions of the world. " May God Bless all Sadhaks who reading these Gita talks. Gita must be read alway only one chapter then see the result Sing Rama Dhuna at leaat for ten minutes and observe its result. There are many things to learn from saints like person.Gita talk can help us a lot Truly yours Shankerprasad S Bhatt ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari || Ram Ram || Dear Sadhak, Many excellent responses have already been posted on this important question. To summarize again, few simple marks are: Feeling at peace with oneself, not waiting for a future happening to feel happy, always in a state of equanimity in favorable and unfavorable circumstances or conditions, dispassion from the world, not thinking or doing bad to anyone. The other people who come in contact with such a sadhka would observe these traits in Sadhka, in terms of good behavior and vibrations of peace etc. As has been pointed by Swamiji Maharaj - what is really the need to know the marks for spiritual progress, because the only thing this knowledge can do for one is to boost the ego, one feels proud and tends to compare himself or herself with others who may not be at par with him or her. Being concerned about progress also can prove to be a distracter from the Sadhana which suggests the Sadhka has not set his goal (union with God), firmly as of yet. The good virtues coming in the sadhaka are not a result of his or her own effort but they are bestowed upon by God's grace only, that is why these virtues are called Divine treasure (Devic Sampati), for example: Arjuna was not aware of the Divine virtues in Him, Lord Krishna says to Arjuna - " Grieve not, thou are born with divine virtues " (Gita: 16-5) and " To you who does not cavil " (Gita: 9-1) and Arjuna says too - " My delusion is destroyed, I have gained my memory through your Grace " (Gita:18-73). In Ramayana too, Hanumanji is not aware of his strength till roused by Jamavan before crossing over to Lanka. When Lord praises him about his bravery, setting a fire to Lanka etc. he says he is only a monkey who only knows how to jump from one branch of the tree to the other, all was possible due to His grace only. The subject question was also about the references in Gita and Ramayana. Depending on mental make-up and choice, each individual may follow one of the four Yogas described in Gita. Many of the traits for each discipline are elaborated through out the Gita, at certain places these traits come as clusters of gems. The virtues mostly seem to be for the Sidhas (perfected souls) only but can be taken as a goal to attain for the Sadhkas. Few of the Verses are: KARMA YOGA (Discipline of Action) - Chapter II: 38, 47-50, 55-72 Chapter III:19-20, 30, 34, 36-37 Chapter IV: 20-23, 41-42 Chapter V:. 11-12 Chapter XVIII: 6, 9, 23, 26 JNANA YOGA (Discipline of Knowledge) - Chapter IV: 9-10 34, 36, 39 Chapter V: .. 7-9, 16-28 Chapter VI: 6-29 Chapter VII: 4-5, 8-12 Chapter X: 3-5 Chapter XIII: 7-11 Chapter XIV: 14/21-26 Chapter XV: 7 Chapter XVIII: 20, 51-53 BHAKTI YOGA (Discipline of Devotion) - Chapter V: 10 Chapter VI: 30-31 Chapter VII: 19 Chapter VIII:14 Chapter IX: 14, 22, 27-28, 30-31, 34 Chapter X: 8-10 Chapter XI: 55 Chapter XII: 13-20 Chapter XV: 5 Chapter XVI: 1-3 Chapter XVIII: 55, 65-66 DHAYANA YOGA (Discipline of Self Control) - Chapter VI: 14-18, 20-25 Chapter VIII: 8-13 In Tulsidas ji's Ram-charit-manas, there are many places, the Divine traits are described as the virtues of saints. For example: In Aryana Kandha, Lord Rama describes the navda Bhakti (nine-fold devotion) to Shabri (35-4 through 36/1-5), starting with: navadha bhakti kahau tohi pahi, savadhana sunu dharau mana mahi " Listen O good lady, to My words I recognize no other kinship except that of Devotion " In Aryana Kandha again: Lord describes these virtues to Narada: samtanha ke lacchana raguubira, kahahu natha bhava bhamjana bhira ... (45/3-5) sunu muni samtanha ke guna kahau, jinha te mat unha ke basa rahau sata bikara jita anagha akama, acala aklimcana suci sukhadhama amitabodha aniha mitbhogi, satyasara kabi kobida jogi savadhana manada madhina, dhira dharma gati param praina gunagar samsara dukha rahita bigata samdeha, " (Doha #46) taji mama carana saroja priya tinha kahudeha na geha Meaning: " O Rama, who are well versed in sacred lore: tell me, my Lord Raghuvira (Hero of Raghu's lineage), the distinguished marks of saints, O dispeller of fear of transmigration. I tell you, dear sage, the qualities of saints, by virtue of which they hold Me in subjection. They are masters of six passions (lust, anger, greed, infatuation, pride and jealousy), sinless, disinterested , firm, possessing nothing, pure (both within and without), full of bliss, of boundless wisdom, desire-less, moderate in diet, truthful, inspired, learned and united with God, circumspect, bestowing honor on others, free from pride, strong-minded and highly conversant with the coursed of Dharma (righteousness). " They are abodes of virtue, above the sorrows of the world and free from doubt. Nthing besides My lotus feet is dear to them, not even their body nor their home.†In Uttara Kandha, Lord Rama describes the divine virtues again at the request of Bharata: suna cahau prabhu inha kar lacchana, krpasimdhu guna gyana bicaccahana ... (37-2) " The gory of the saints, O Lord of the Raghus, has been sung in various ways by the Vedas and Puranas. You too have exalted them by your own graceful mouth and my Lord bears great affection for them. " ... continued to Doha #38. In Uttara Kandha, Kaka Bhusandi is describing virtues of saints when requested by Garuda: para upkar bacana mana kaya, samta sahaja subhau khagraya samata sahani dukha parahit lagi, paradukha hetu asamta abhagi brurja taru sama samta hkrpala, parahita niti saha bipati bisala .. (121/ 7-8) There is no blessing to equal to the communion with the God. To be charitable to others in thought and word, O king of birds, is the innate disposition of saints. The god endure pain in the interest of others, but evil wretches do so to give others pain. Tendencies saints like the birch tree, submit to the direst distress (even allow their bark to be torn off) for the good of their neighbors. || Ram Ram || Humble pranam, Madan Kaura ----------------------------- Hari Om For the benefit of all the sadhaks, I am pleased to present an article from one of the most respected Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma which charts out progression in a sadhak's life. I hope Sadhaks will find themselves in the narration. I will appreciate views of sadhaks/ their personal experiences on the below. THE FIRST STAGE: At the end of many births , a man becomes discriminating. He reflects THUS: " Alas ! The state of worldly life is worthless. Enough of this for me. " " How do I cross the ocean of worldly existence becoming one possessed of freedom from passion? " When a person with a virtuous mind becomes intent on reflection in this manner, he attains to indifference towards worldly pleasures in his inner thoughts day after day. He undertakes and rejoices in activities of a lofty nature every day. He always hesitates in doing vulgar and stupid actions. He does not speak of the defects of others. He pursues virtuous deeds, gentle deeds not causing agitation of mind. He is constantly afraid of sin. He does not hope for enjoyment. He speaks words, tender and proper, full of affection and friendship, which words are suitable to time and place. He honours virtuous people by thought, word and deed. He looks into Scriptures of spiritual knowledge, fetching them from some where or any one. Next time: The Second Stage Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- This question is tricky and I saw that Sadhaks mention 'do surrender', 'do not judge'. Truly, Yes! But for the mind that is sometimes a question for some people. Not every one is like the ones mentioned in the stories and to have such ocassional doubt not at all a detriment to saadhana. Like for any practice the sadhana has its 'ups' and 'downs'. During the 'up' we see the inner quite and peace, which is a indicator we are making a progress. The problem comes when there are 'downs'. By 'downs', I mean that saadhak do not feel the same inner peace (for whatever reasons, which is not the discussion point here!) and so would consider he / she is down the path. What actually is happening is that sadhak is working on the 'vaasanas' or the effects of the 'vasanaas'. If sadhak is patient and continue sadhana (be it meditation, yogasanas, mantra, tantra, bhajan or satsang) with determination the saadhak will soon see the 'up' and feel the experience. The measure is (whether you consciously judge or it unconsciously happens) that in the long run we start realizing quiteness / peace more frequently. Yes, sadhana towards God is the target, while the peace / quiteness is the fall out of the same. Regards Venu Komanduri ----------------------------- The easiest and best yardstick to measure one's spiritual progress is just to look back down the line of your life and compared yourself what you were and what you are, and if you find marked difference in your attitude positively and spiritual, then you are progressing. One need not ask anybody, it is all within. Love and Love alone..... -- Paritala Gopi Krishna ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING The single most measure for self evaluation is : The ability to abide peacefully and joyfully in the present,dealing with whatever situation Existence places you, without remorse or guilt of the past, and any anxiety for the future ( results) . AUM. narinder bhandari ----------------------------- Near & Dear Prepetina G, According to your Query, there is a single and unique yardstick to measure not only our spiritual progress but also our routine work, that is all the activities was, is, and will be done by us. That is our " MANA " in the sense HEART. It is my personal request that please listen to PRAVACHAN of MAHARAJ JI of the day of April-1991, You will definitely clear your doubts. If there is a single mistake in conveying this then please forgive me. Jag Mohan ------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Jag Mohanji, please specify exact date and time of pravachan. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram --------------- Spirituality & Progress Yardstick Gita clearly specifies the attributes of behaviour of a Yogi on the path to Nirvana (Godhood). One can find out progress by the following measures: How much of time in his waking day and sleep does one remain (i) unperturbed by external events and developments (ii) work, think and act with complete concentration without any desire to seek pleasure or satisfaction, (iii) does not feel the pressure of self-ego (the idea that I am doing/ thinking/ eating) (iv) sees every person as the same as no different from himself as manifestation of God, (v) without anger irrespective of whatever happens (vi) without disappointment irrespective of whatever happens (viii) without pride.... If the percentage of time under (i) to (viii) continously increases, there is progress. Basudeb Sen ------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Judging capacity or rights to judge the progress of anyone or self solely in the hands of GOD. Normally one who experienced a little of Bagavan have to go 2/3 births still more. Examples: Sant Namdev, even after Bagavan Paruranga (Sri Krishna) had direct touch with him, he was born again as Sant Tukaram who flew to Vaikunt. Jada Bharat in Sri Bagavath Puran took 2 births and then got liberated. Ramana Rishi said that he crossed few birth to understand that world is Maya and he remained attached to SAT. There were cases were Bakthas like Vilvamangalam who was regularly playing and living with Sri Krishna was deluded by a small mistake and had to take birth as a cow, then as a snake and then as plant Tulasi in Guruvayur. The tulasi leaves were on Ekadasi day was plucked from that so called Vilvamangal Tulasi tree and garlanded to sri Krishna and there after Vilvamangalam was with Bagavan. A person aiming at medal in a race normally never succeds. But a person who runs just for race with enthusiasm wins. So if one has slight desire to measure his yardstick, only falls rather than raising. There is a beatiful example from stories of Brindavan. A calf used to looking at Sri Krishna while grassing so pathetically, got liberated. When the Jeeva of calf leaving the body (Calf body) was wittnessed by a great saint at Brindavan. Saint asked Bagavan Sri Krishna, when such a grace is going to come for him. Sri Krishna said, " Oh saint, the calf was looking at me with mind set saying that it is was expressing it`s total inability even to think of ME (Sri Krishna). So the calf had total surrender and no atom of I- ness. Where as you think you are saint, that which is obstacle for you " . Sadaks, we are desiring for infenity, SAT, unchanging bliss, so our input quality can be only measured by Bagavan. Surrender to HIM and progress. To judge your exam paper you dont do. Somebody does. This is for education and earning for survival not for liberation. Then imagine for liberation-What? Jai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan ----------------------------- Pranam Meeraji, How to create such intense longing for GOD? Varun P. Paprunia ----------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji says that when the longing is so intense for God that one remembers nothing but God and only God. Besides God, nothing is attractive. Nothing in the world is appealing, absolutely nothing else - " Ab kuch bhi nahin suhaave, ek tu hi mana bhaave. " Only You and You alone. During the day there is no hunger, nor thirst, at night there is no desire to sleep, time and time again there is that one and only one intense longing - " Din nahin bhookh, raine nahin nidraa, chin chin vyaakul hot hiyaa. " There is no laughter, there is intense uneasiness and longing - when will I behold Him!!! Meera Das Ram Ram ----------------------------- From Drops Of Nectar, chapter 27, page 41 397. In the beginning, to a sadhak God appears to be far off, then He seems closer, then sadhak sees God within his own Self, and later he sees nothing, but only God. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/englishbooks/english% 20book%20layout/The%20Drops%20Nector/main.html Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia Swamiji has said that A sadhak should judge his spiritual progress only when he is in doubt. Compared to his previous state before becoming a sadhak, he will definitely notice some difference. If he has no doubt then he should never judge himself, he should just be steadfast in his practice. If he starts judging then there are some pitfalls: 1. Complacency - If he becomes complacent at his present state then he will not strive for further perfection. Also the present state of peacefulness will not last because attachment of sattvik also leads to bondage. " Sattvagun binds through attachment of peace and knowledge " (Gita 14.6) It does not mean that sadhak does not has to respect peace and knowledge of sattvagun. He has to respect that peace and also protect it because that will only lead to emancipation. " But the self-controlled sadhak, while enjoying the various sense- objects through his senses, which are disciplined and free from likes and dislikes, attains of placidity of mind. With the attainment of such placidity of mind, all his sorrows come to an end; and the intellect of such a tranquil mind soon withdrawing itself from all sides, becomes firmly established in God " (Gita 2.64- 65) " The peace of yogarudh (one who is tranquil) sadhak is way to blessedness " (Gita 6.3) He has to respect sattvagun but not get attached to it. 2. Ego - There is always a fear of this ego - 'I am a good sadhak'. This will definitely spell doom for him. This is related to first point but I'm specifying it as different point because this is the most dangerous. To make him aware of this mistake, God sends unfavorable circumstances. 3. Mine-ness with inert - When a sadhak judges himself he judges them only by looking into mind, intellect, nature etc. The problem here is that with whom sadhak has to break his affinity he is looking into those things. The Self does not change, it remains as it is. Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING How much love you have developed for Bhagwaan. How much do you remember Bhagwaan, just like lovers (lover and the loved). IN HINDI Bhagwan ke prati kitna pyar hua hai Unki kitni yaad aati hai. Just like premi & premika Thanx Raja Gurdasani --------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji says that the less that we are attracted to the world and the more that our attraction, attachment, devotion to God increases, that much we have progressed spiritually. On having made spiritual progress, there is less attachment (passion, attraction, likes, desires) and aversion (dislikes, hatred, enmity) in worldly relations. There is less elation and dejection in worldly affairs. There is less pleasure or pain from worldly gains and losses. There is a peaceful feeling, ever cheerfulness and contentment. Meera Das Ram Ram --------------------- Best way to " judge " spiritual progress is in the absence of any yardsticks to measure the same as well as anything else. Best " yard stick " to measure spiritual progress is the absence of any need to judge the same as well as anything else. Absence of judgment as well as measurement altogether is The Spirituality. If at all one insists for one ... The Happiness is the " yard stick " to " measure " as well as the " basis " to " judge " one's spiritual progress ... because, The Happiness is the one that REQUIRES absence of both the qualities - judgment and measurement ... as far as one does not attempt to use The Happiness as an instrument to judge or measure anything as such. Respects. Naga Narayana ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING As the understanding gets deeper with experience and start getting near the true natural state...... there is increasing joy .......for no outside reasons........This means good progress....... When this inner happiness is not disturbed at all.....gets stabilized..... That is the state of bliss or moksha.....connection to the supercomputer of the universe... Self assessment or assessment by others of higher consciousness levels may be necessary to know if the direction needs correction.....But it is all very tricky. Mind plays in many ways and even a single thought could stop the progress further...... Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind... Wonderful way of knowing self............................. Sushil Jain ----------------------------- Hari Om Yardsticks as sought by you based on Swamiji's discourses and Gitaji: 1 The bouts of anger/greed are not now that frequent as they were in the past. 2 They don't come now with that high velocity and ferocity as they used into the past. 3 They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. 4 Divine properties as described in the BG 16:1 to 16:3 have started manifesting into you. Like fearlessness, clean conscience, austerity, tolerance, truthfulness, easyness, strightforwardness, non violence, giving to other, reading of holy scriptures, non fickleness, a shame in doing evil , radiance, forgiveness, etc In fact your spiritual progress can be judged from above yardsticks. Anger reduces, the frequency reduces, it remains for lesser time than in the past. I may add here that it is not very beneficial for a sadhak to keep observing as where does he stand in spiritual progress. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj also stated that one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. It is not a matter of worry but surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging also gives rise to comparison with another and then arises either pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex) . Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- Dear Sadak, Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama (desires), Krodh (anger), Lobha (greed) etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi (devotion and worship of God). B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- Dear Sadhkas, Namaskar It is good question...How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? I feel, by analysing the existing concepts of spirituality, he can know how far he is approaching the truth...the facts connected to his existance...Gee Waman ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING The following question was answered on May 14, 2008 in Kansas City Star. I t answers waht is spirituality, what absence of spirituality means. P hope ypu cam post this as the start of discussion. Thank you. Arvind Khetia Q: WHAT DOES THE TERM " SPIRITUALITY " MEAN IN YOUR FAITH? Ans: The universal and inclusive nature of Hinduism is derived from its emphasis on spirituality. The sages of ancient India contemplated on the nature of consciousness and realized that there is a divine presence at the core of all existence and within all human beings. Thus, behind this material world, at a deep spiritual level of consciousness, they realized an underlying unity. To realize one's inner divinity, Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad- Gita, " The Supreme Reality is revealed in the consciousness of those who have conquered themselves. " Thus, one's spiritual quest begins with cultivating self-control, detachment, truthfulness and non- violence, and culminates in realizing the ultimate Reality within oneself and in all of the existence. Thus, according to Vedanta (spiritual philosophy of Hinduism), spirituality is not just believing, but becoming. It requires an increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all. Then, one can transcend apparent differences based on race, religion or gender, and transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. The absence of spirituality creates the delusion of separateness resulting in a false sense of superiority. Consequently, exploitation, hatred, fear and violence follows. Swami Vivekananda correctly observed that, " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality, and the death of that race begins the day that spirituality wanes and materialism gains ground. " -------------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Spiritual progress is unlike progress we measure in worldly matters. One can measure over time noting the change between two points in time. Conventionally we may say spiritual progress just to encourage sadhakas on their way to liberation. however, time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. As such the understanding happens in flashes when one is least expecting. It's " aha wow.., now I know " moments accompanied by joy due to the absence of " me " . Such moments are brief in the starting, but they become more prevalent and asserting down the road. Bottom line is that progress, for the lack of better word, is when there is increasing joy without any cause! One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God which is Life! At this point in one's sadhana, only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God(vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains... namaskara............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Prepetina, Be very careful, because of the word judge, because one may start to think, " Well I meditate twice a day, and practice sacred rituals every day, she/he doesn't. I am much further along the path! " , you may start to judge others. Remember the two birds at the fountain. A true story: During my time in Singapore, I used to pass a very small Hindu Shrine, and there was this man there busy cleaning and tidying the Shrine and its surrounds on a daily basis. When he was done he used to sit in Lotus for hours in the sun, just where the path to the Shrine met the street pavement, but to one side, so as not to obstruct, (I presume), his eyes were always open, and the merest hint of a smile on his face. I mentioned this man of so long ago to a group of people we meditate with, asking what was he doing sitting there for so long, quite a few folk agreed with the comment made by one, " He was doing Gods Work " , another said, " After all you still remember him " , I do indeed, he was my,'Silent Guru'. B.G. Chapter 9 Those who direct their thoughts to Me, Worshiping Me with steadfast mind, For them I secure what they lack And preserve that which they possess. (22) The only yardstick I see is that you have started to do that which is described in Gitaji 9:22, as you have turned towards this Satsang, (a spiritual move). My simple humble advice is to get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor). ----------------------------- There are no yardsticks as such but with spiritual practices like sewa, sadhna, satsang and meditation if done properly and regularly one can notice the changes in one's thoughts, action , behaviour etc.. When one connects with one's Self, he or she will realise that all that we see is maya or an illusion and that the only true path and the goal for our soul is to become one with the Parmatma or God. After that we are spared from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------- SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES TO DATE - Spiritual progress is unlike progress in worldly matters - spirituality is not just believing, but becoming - Spirituality is increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all, thus transcending all differences. - Absence of spirituality creates delusion of separateness/superiority - transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. - Swami Vivekananda " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality... " - time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. - understanding happens in flashes.. It's " aha wow... One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God! Life! and only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God (vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains. - get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. - Bhagwaan (The Beloved) will secure what is lacking and preserve that which you possess - Only one goal - become one with Paramatma for eternal bliss - all else is maya. there are no yardsticks - Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama, Krodh, Lobha etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi. - reduction in frequency, velocity of anger/greed/desires and They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. Divine properties of Gita 16:1-3 - Yardstick - how far he is approaching the truth/existence - one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. Rather experience surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging leads to comparison resulting in pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex). Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. - increasing joy for no external reason. state of bliss or moksha - Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind. -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram Sadhaks, Let not any reading be casual. Let us use this opportunity to study the references and make them part of our daily lives. Thank you sadhaks for the extensive references. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------- A Question How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? Are there any yardsticks prescribed in Gita/Ramayana or other Scriptures? How does one know where is he standing at present? Prepetina G ----------------------------- NEW POSTING Swamiji says - when a sadhak comes to the understanding that he wants that happiness, that joy and bliss that has no shortage or limitation, and that which never ends. " Yam labdhvaa chaaparam laabham manyate naadhikam tatah; yaasminnisthato na dukhen gurnaapi vichaalyate tam vidhyaadukhsam yog viyogam yogasanjitam. " (Gita 6:22-23) " Having gained that state, he does not reckon any other gain greater than that, and wherein established, he is not shaken even by the greatest affliction. " This separation from the assumed union with world - prakriti(i.e. becoming Nirmamoha and Nirahankaar) and the realization that something like this is not possible without the grace of The Divine, and that he is only an instrument in the hands of The Divine - is a yardstick of spiritual progress. Bhagwaan asked Arjuna, if he had understood the Gita ? and Arjuna replied, " Nashto Moha, Smriti Labdhvaa, Tat Prasaadaa " All attachments are wiped out, and the Truth is now recollected, only by Your grace. " Karishye vachanam tavah " , I will follow Your command, Your words. Meera Das Ram Ram ---------------- Hari Om I always know Brother Mike speaks from his soul. Hence my invitation must have made many sadhaks richer. Gem in his own right, is this great Child of Universe ! Why not each of the really distinguished battery of sadhaks should share his/her experience ? O God ! Do not we have Sadhaks drawn from varied castes/ creeds/cultures/countries/civilisations/characters/colours ?? There lies the beauty, there lies the treasure for all to share. Mira Dassji, Rajaji, Pratapji, Shrikantji Joshi, Varunji, Shashikalaji, Manjulaji Patel, Naga Narainji, S S Bhattji, Sadhanaji Karigar, Madanji Kaura, Sarvottamji, B Sathyanarainji, Ashokji Goenka , AH Dalmiaji, KG Gopalji, Mahalaxmiji Dasi, Rajendra Bohraji, Respected Rameshji, Sophiaji, Suresh Sharmaji, Mrs G K Balaji, Narinder Bhandariji, Catherine Anderson, Nishaji, Adrien Meyers, Hanna Sandal, Ben, Shivji, - dozens and dozens and dozens others must be having, like Brother Mike Keenor , to narrate their paths, their personal views, their own sentiments/bhavas, leading them to HIM !!! Why not share them ? (Promise! I will share mine. Satsanga must reach divine heights. It shall !! I knew Brother Mike would respond instantly). Come On, Divine Brothers and Divine Sisters ! Even if sorrows are at centre, what is shame in stating that ? DUKHALAYAM ASHASHWATHAM !! There lies the crux ! This is Divinity !! THIRD STAGE ... To be Contd Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------------------- thank you Vyas jee.................thank you dear sadhaks................. what a divine feast we have in this sharing ........... the 'Three Stages ' mentioned by Vyas jee ................. are so delicious !I am looking forward to the Fourth dish ....... only one thing comes to the Mind, however,and that is ............... the words are only bridges to lead us to the other shore, the No-Mind. they are only 'indicators': the travelling is our own. Only when the other shore is reached, the words truly reveal to us the intelligence they contain !Peacefulness and Bliss follows .............. Bliss that embraces within itself all grief, all sorrow, all pain ! and narinder becomes aware of yet another paradox............... even the travelling is Grace, His Gift : the whole of the sadhna is a journey in the resolution of this paradox for oneself ............ may the Buddhas of all ages bless us and come to our aid ............ aum, Narinder Bhandari ......... ----------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadaks, Yardstick answer is: While just hearing Bagwan name the hair should stand, tears should come, body will feel ecstasy. Ref: Brindarinya Upanashid. Even Bagavan says similar words in Geetha at One instance This just like on hearing your most loved one` s name who is far away. Dont you feel heart felt joy. So when you are close to Bagavan alone you experience bliss. Jai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ Hari Om Indeed Sadhaks should attain momentum, as suggested by Divine Moderators of this GT Group. The third of the total 7 stages must encourage many to pursue the divine path : THE THIRD STAGE Having applied his mind steadily to the meaning (bhavas) of the words of Scriptures properly, he wears out his extended life seated on a couch of stone, with his rests in the hermitages of ascetics and with his participation in courses of narration concerning the Supreme Spirit, which blame worldly life and which are equally the steps in producing indifference to the world. INDIFFERENCE TO THE WORLD !! Ordinary Non attachment " Everything brought into existence by previous actions (pleasure or pain), is only dependent on God. What is my doership in the matter? The enjoyments of objects of pleasure are intense diseases. Riches are great misfortunes. Associations are only for separation. Anxieties are diseases of mind. Time is engaged in swallowing up all beings continuously " The annihilation ( " Fana " in Brother Mike's words ! ) of mental inclinations inwardly in the above manner, due to INDIFFERENCE of one with a mind fastened to the meanings of the sentences of Scriptures , is that ORDINARY NON-ATTACHMENT !! Dear Sadhaks ! Keep deliberating as to where each of us is placed and why? What prevents us from moving forward ? Feel free ! Feel enthusiastic ! Throw ego into the dust bin while expressing ! The best is on the way to touch your soul ! Next : The best non- attachment: The Fourth Stage Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------------------------- " If each year, the number of things or events, which can arouse your anger or lust grows smaller, you are making progress; if it remains the same, you are stagnating; if it increases, your spiritual development is regressing. " by: Paramacharya, Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham, Kanchi. Paritala Gopi Krishna ----------------------------- -Shree Hari- Brother Vyas, Reflecting on your invitation to share personal experiences, on the 'second stage', I printed your list so can I think about it as I type. Now during my time of change I found much support, in a sense I really did not have to look too hard it was always there, this I believe to be universal to all seekers, regardless of creed.(This is in agreement with Gitaji). For many years,(decades), I scrutinized scripture, (Christian), dissected customs, festivals holy days. I got hold of the earliest Greek/English text, I felt I was being assaulted by waves of blind dogma, blind worship. I was horrified with what mother church had done through history, to innocent cultures and people, and I felt sickened to my soul. You see dear Sadhaks, I remained spiritual through all this, never rejecting GOD. But I felt very, very, alone, like I was in a spiritual wilderness. In this dark time, I then suffered from agonizing pain that lasted for about a year, made me a virtual cripple. Oddly enough I was always drawn towards meditation, for so long I can't remember. My pride and ego took a hammering, through the pain, through my bewilderment, I realize now,(looking back), I was heading into what in the West is known as the 'Dark Night of the Soul', very few will talk about it,(I expect the Indian traditions have their own name for it, probably something to do with Shakti). Things got far worse, but I will not talk about it. But you see it is in that 'Dark Place', that you see the Rising Sun, the Light of Beloved. You NEVER come out of this place the way you go in, this Dark place is full of Grace you see. There is so much more, but suffice to say the points Brother Vyas made, in general, are a natural outcome of this process. Prepetinaji don't worry that was my soul chosen way. Yours could be all laughter and light. All Sadhaks have their story, I expect you have yours Brother Vyas. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor) ------------------------------ Hari Om I humbly suggest the following as good indicators of Spiritual Progress: - an incredible sense of calm, serenity, and absolute lack of concern or worry about anything. Lack of concern does not mean you are careless and reckless and ignore danger. And, those who are well- advanced in Spirituality do not have to make an attempt to be calm or still, even in the face of disastrous events. - a great yearning for anything that represents or is connected with Bhagavan, e.g. devotional music, scriptures, literature, company of sadhaks, and discussions on Spiritual matters. - no complaints, no shouting, no loud words, almost totally oblivious of the world around you, perfectly satisfied with whatever material possessions you have, e.g. clothes, car, home, food, furniture etc. - you seem to be surrounded by a aura of divinity and spirituality ( you are not! Lose the false ego): total strangers smile as they approach you, become friendly and relaxed in your presence, respect and even accept your views, and they have an intense desire to associate with you. - most of all, you genuinely believe there is a spark of divinity in every human being and you want to devote every moment of your life to serve others. Krishna S. Narinedath ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om We discussed conduct of a Sadhak in the first stage. I hope a majority of sadhaks of this Forum might have found themselves crossing that stage ! In second stage, Sadhak starts looking at Scriptures deeply in order to determine his conduct. Brother Mike ! Any personal experiences to share especially re the second stage? THE SECOND STAGE: He resorts to pre-eminent scholars, well known by their foremost exposition of Veds-s , texts of ethical and religious codes, virtuous conduct, concentration, meditation and rituals. Familiar with the division or arrangement of words and their meanings, he knows the settled rule relating to what ought to be done and what ought not to be done, as a householder knows his house. He gets rid of excessive pride, self conceit, jeolousy, delusion and greed, even dwelling outwardly a little in his worldly life, necessitated by circumstances, as a snake gets rid of its skin. One whose intellect is in this state, duly learns completely , along with the esoteric teachings, from following or devotion to Scriptures , the spiritual preceptor and wise (vituous ) persons ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------ Dear Sadhak Every body's progress towards spiritual development can be flt by the person himself.When Mirabai was singing the song of Lord Krishna then sometime she was crying and many time she was in estacy.Somiliarly was the case of Sri Chaitainya Maihaprabhu who was acting like Mirabai When we forget things in the service of God then we are nearer to God Sri Narsinh Mehta was reciting bhajan he forgot his own work.The same was the case of Gopis who were reciting the name of Gopal instead f milk or dahi which they have to sell. We have examin any such thing happening to us We achieve intutive power.We get the power to offer prayers for others These are the sing of spiritual developent These are my experiences at the age of eighty five ll my experiences are noted in my book on " Prayers of all Religions of the world. " May God Bless all Sadhaks who reading these Gita talks. Gita must be read alway only one chapter then see the result Sing Rama Dhuna at leaat for ten minutes and observe its result. There are many things to learn from saints like person.Gita talk can help us a lot Truly yours Shankerprasad S Bhatt ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari || Ram Ram || Dear Sadhak, Many excellent responses have already been posted on this important question. To summarize again, few simple marks are: Feeling at peace with oneself, not waiting for a future happening to feel happy, always in a state of equanimity in favorable and unfavorable circumstances or conditions, dispassion from the world, not thinking or doing bad to anyone. The other people who come in contact with such a sadhka would observe these traits in Sadhka, in terms of good behavior and vibrations of peace etc. As has been pointed by Swamiji Maharaj - what is really the need to know the marks for spiritual progress, because the only thing this knowledge can do for one is to boost the ego, one feels proud and tends to compare himself or herself with others who may not be at par with him or her. Being concerned about progress also can prove to be a distracter from the Sadhana which suggests the Sadhka has not set his goal (union with God), firmly as of yet. The good virtues coming in the sadhaka are not a result of his or her own effort but they are bestowed upon by God's grace only, that is why these virtues are called Divine treasure (Devic Sampati), for example: Arjuna was not aware of the Divine virtues in Him, Lord Krishna says to Arjuna - " Grieve not, thou are born with divine virtues " (Gita: 16-5) and " To you who does not cavil " (Gita: 9-1) and Arjuna says too - " My delusion is destroyed, I have gained my memory through your Grace " (Gita:18-73). In Ramayana too, Hanumanji is not aware of his strength till roused by Jamavan before crossing over to Lanka. When Lord praises him about his bravery, setting a fire to Lanka etc. he says he is only a monkey who only knows how to jump from one branch of the tree to the other, all was possible due to His grace only. The subject question was also about the references in Gita and Ramayana. Depending on mental make-up and choice, each individual may follow one of the four Yogas described in Gita. Many of the traits for each discipline are elaborated through out the Gita, at certain places these traits come as clusters of gems. The virtues mostly seem to be for the Sidhas (perfected souls) only but can be taken as a goal to attain for the Sadhkas. Few of the Verses are: KARMA YOGA (Discipline of Action) - Chapter II: 38, 47-50, 55-72 Chapter III:19-20, 30, 34, 36-37 Chapter IV: 20-23, 41-42 Chapter V:. 11-12 Chapter XVIII: 6, 9, 23, 26 JNANA YOGA (Discipline of Knowledge) - Chapter IV: 9-10 34, 36, 39 Chapter V: .. 7-9, 16-28 Chapter VI: 6-29 Chapter VII: 4-5, 8-12 Chapter X: 3-5 Chapter XIII: 7-11 Chapter XIV: 14/21-26 Chapter XV: 7 Chapter XVIII: 20, 51-53 BHAKTI YOGA (Discipline of Devotion) - Chapter V: 10 Chapter VI: 30-31 Chapter VII: 19 Chapter VIII:14 Chapter IX: 14, 22, 27-28, 30-31, 34 Chapter X: 8-10 Chapter XI: 55 Chapter XII: 13-20 Chapter XV: 5 Chapter XVI: 1-3 Chapter XVIII: 55, 65-66 DHAYANA YOGA (Discipline of Self Control) - Chapter VI: 14-18, 20-25 Chapter VIII: 8-13 In Tulsidas ji's Ram-charit-manas, there are many places, the Divine traits are described as the virtues of saints. For example: In Aryana Kandha, Lord Rama describes the navda Bhakti (nine-fold devotion) to Shabri (35-4 through 36/1-5), starting with: navadha bhakti kahau tohi pahi, savadhana sunu dharau mana mahi " Listen O good lady, to My words I recognize no other kinship except that of Devotion " In Aryana Kandha again: Lord describes these virtues to Narada: samtanha ke lacchana raguubira, kahahu natha bhava bhamjana bhira ... (45/3-5) sunu muni samtanha ke guna kahau, jinha te mat unha ke basa rahau sata bikara jita anagha akama, acala aklimcana suci sukhadhama amitabodha aniha mitbhogi, satyasara kabi kobida jogi savadhana manada madhina, dhira dharma gati param praina gunagar samsara dukha rahita bigata samdeha, " (Doha #46) taji mama carana saroja priya tinha kahudeha na geha Meaning: " O Rama, who are well versed in sacred lore: tell me, my Lord Raghuvira (Hero of Raghu's lineage), the distinguished marks of saints, O dispeller of fear of transmigration. I tell you, dear sage, the qualities of saints, by virtue of which they hold Me in subjection. They are masters of six passions (lust, anger, greed, infatuation, pride and jealousy), sinless, disinterested , firm, possessing nothing, pure (both within and without), full of bliss, of boundless wisdom, desire-less, moderate in diet, truthful, inspired, learned and united with God, circumspect, bestowing honor on others, free from pride, strong-minded and highly conversant with the coursed of Dharma (righteousness). " They are abodes of virtue, above the sorrows of the world and free from doubt. Nthing besides My lotus feet is dear to them, not even their body nor their home.†In Uttara Kandha, Lord Rama describes the divine virtues again at the request of Bharata: suna cahau prabhu inha kar lacchana, krpasimdhu guna gyana bicaccahana ... (37-2) " The gory of the saints, O Lord of the Raghus, has been sung in various ways by the Vedas and Puranas. You too have exalted them by your own graceful mouth and my Lord bears great affection for them. " ... continued to Doha #38. In Uttara Kandha, Kaka Bhusandi is describing virtues of saints when requested by Garuda: para upkar bacana mana kaya, samta sahaja subhau khagraya samata sahani dukha parahit lagi, paradukha hetu asamta abhagi brurja taru sama samta hkrpala, parahita niti saha bipati bisala .. (121/ 7-8) There is no blessing to equal to the communion with the God. To be charitable to others in thought and word, O king of birds, is the innate disposition of saints. The god endure pain in the interest of others, but evil wretches do so to give others pain. Tendencies saints like the birch tree, submit to the direst distress (even allow their bark to be torn off) for the good of their neighbors. || Ram Ram || Humble pranam, Madan Kaura ----------------------------- Hari Om For the benefit of all the sadhaks, I am pleased to present an article from one of the most respected Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma which charts out progression in a sadhak's life. I hope Sadhaks will find themselves in the narration. I will appreciate views of sadhaks/ their personal experiences on the below. THE FIRST STAGE: At the end of many births , a man becomes discriminating. He reflects THUS: " Alas ! The state of worldly life is worthless. Enough of this for me. " " How do I cross the ocean of worldly existence becoming one possessed of freedom from passion? " When a person with a virtuous mind becomes intent on reflection in this manner, he attains to indifference towards worldly pleasures in his inner thoughts day after day. He undertakes and rejoices in activities of a lofty nature every day. He always hesitates in doing vulgar and stupid actions. He does not speak of the defects of others. He pursues virtuous deeds, gentle deeds not causing agitation of mind. He is constantly afraid of sin. He does not hope for enjoyment. He speaks words, tender and proper, full of affection and friendship, which words are suitable to time and place. He honours virtuous people by thought, word and deed. He looks into Scriptures of spiritual knowledge, fetching them from some where or any one. Next time: The Second Stage Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- This question is tricky and I saw that Sadhaks mention 'do surrender', 'do not judge'. Truly, Yes! But for the mind that is sometimes a question for some people. Not every one is like the ones mentioned in the stories and to have such ocassional doubt not at all a detriment to saadhana. Like for any practice the sadhana has its 'ups' and 'downs'. During the 'up' we see the inner quite and peace, which is a indicator we are making a progress. The problem comes when there are 'downs'. By 'downs', I mean that saadhak do not feel the same inner peace (for whatever reasons, which is not the discussion point here!) and so would consider he / she is down the path. What actually is happening is that sadhak is working on the 'vaasanas' or the effects of the 'vasanaas'. If sadhak is patient and continue sadhana (be it meditation, yogasanas, mantra, tantra, bhajan or satsang) with determination the saadhak will soon see the 'up' and feel the experience. The measure is (whether you consciously judge or it unconsciously happens) that in the long run we start realizing quiteness / peace more frequently. Yes, sadhana towards God is the target, while the peace / quiteness is the fall out of the same. Regards Venu Komanduri ----------------------------- The easiest and best yardstick to measure one's spiritual progress is just to look back down the line of your life and compared yourself what you were and what you are, and if you find marked difference in your attitude positively and spiritual, then you are progressing. One need not ask anybody, it is all within. Love and Love alone..... -- Paritala Gopi Krishna ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING The single most measure for self evaluation is : The ability to abide peacefully and joyfully in the present,dealing with whatever situation Existence places you, without remorse or guilt of the past, and any anxiety for the future ( results) . AUM. narinder bhandari ----------------------------- Near & Dear Prepetina G, According to your Query, there is a single and unique yardstick to measure not only our spiritual progress but also our routine work, that is all the activities was, is, and will be done by us. That is our " MANA " in the sense HEART. It is my personal request that please listen to PRAVACHAN of MAHARAJ JI of the day of April-1991, You will definitely clear your doubts. If there is a single mistake in conveying this then please forgive me. Jag Mohan ------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Jag Mohanji, please specify exact date and time of pravachan. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram --------------- Spirituality & Progress Yardstick Gita clearly specifies the attributes of behaviour of a Yogi on the path to Nirvana (Godhood). One can find out progress by the following measures: How much of time in his waking day and sleep does one remain (i) unperturbed by external events and developments (ii) work, think and act with complete concentration without any desire to seek pleasure or satisfaction, (iii) does not feel the pressure of self-ego (the idea that I am doing/ thinking/ eating) (iv) sees every person as the same as no different from himself as manifestation of God, (v) without anger irrespective of whatever happens (vi) without disappointment irrespective of whatever happens (viii) without pride.... If the percentage of time under (i) to (viii) continously increases, there is progress. Basudeb Sen ------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Judging capacity or rights to judge the progress of anyone or self solely in the hands of GOD. Normally one who experienced a little of Bagavan have to go 2/3 births still more. Examples: Sant Namdev, even after Bagavan Paruranga (Sri Krishna) had direct touch with him, he was born again as Sant Tukaram who flew to Vaikunt. Jada Bharat in Sri Bagavath Puran took 2 births and then got liberated. Ramana Rishi said that he crossed few birth to understand that world is Maya and he remained attached to SAT. There were cases were Bakthas like Vilvamangalam who was regularly playing and living with Sri Krishna was deluded by a small mistake and had to take birth as a cow, then as a snake and then as plant Tulasi in Guruvayur. The tulasi leaves were on Ekadasi day was plucked from that so called Vilvamangal Tulasi tree and garlanded to sri Krishna and there after Vilvamangalam was with Bagavan. A person aiming at medal in a race normally never succeds. But a person who runs just for race with enthusiasm wins. So if one has slight desire to measure his yardstick, only falls rather than raising. There is a beatiful example from stories of Brindavan. A calf used to looking at Sri Krishna while grassing so pathetically, got liberated. When the Jeeva of calf leaving the body (Calf body) was wittnessed by a great saint at Brindavan. Saint asked Bagavan Sri Krishna, when such a grace is going to come for him. Sri Krishna said, " Oh saint, the calf was looking at me with mind set saying that it is was expressing it`s total inability even to think of ME (Sri Krishna). So the calf had total surrender and no atom of I- ness. Where as you think you are saint, that which is obstacle for you " . Sadaks, we are desiring for infenity, SAT, unchanging bliss, so our input quality can be only measured by Bagavan. Surrender to HIM and progress. To judge your exam paper you dont do. Somebody does. This is for education and earning for survival not for liberation. Then imagine for liberation-What? Jai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan ----------------------------- Pranam Meeraji, How to create such intense longing for GOD? Varun P. Paprunia ----------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji says that when the longing is so intense for God that one remembers nothing but God and only God. Besides God, nothing is attractive. Nothing in the world is appealing, absolutely nothing else - " Ab kuch bhi nahin suhaave, ek tu hi mana bhaave. " Only You and You alone. During the day there is no hunger, nor thirst, at night there is no desire to sleep, time and time again there is that one and only one intense longing - " Din nahin bhookh, raine nahin nidraa, chin chin vyaakul hot hiyaa. " There is no laughter, there is intense uneasiness and longing - when will I behold Him!!! Meera Das Ram Ram ----------------------------- From Drops Of Nectar, chapter 27, page 41 397. In the beginning, to a sadhak God appears to be far off, then He seems closer, then sadhak sees God within his own Self, and later he sees nothing, but only God. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/englishbooks/english% 20book%20layout/The%20Drops%20Nector/main.html Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia Swamiji has said that A sadhak should judge his spiritual progress only when he is in doubt. Compared to his previous state before becoming a sadhak, he will definitely notice some difference. If he has no doubt then he should never judge himself, he should just be steadfast in his practice. If he starts judging then there are some pitfalls: 1. Complacency - If he becomes complacent at his present state then he will not strive for further perfection. Also the present state of peacefulness will not last because attachment of sattvik also leads to bondage. " Sattvagun binds through attachment of peace and knowledge " (Gita 14.6) It does not mean that sadhak does not has to respect peace and knowledge of sattvagun. He has to respect that peace and also protect it because that will only lead to emancipation. " But the self-controlled sadhak, while enjoying the various sense- objects through his senses, which are disciplined and free from likes and dislikes, attains of placidity of mind. With the attainment of such placidity of mind, all his sorrows come to an end; and the intellect of such a tranquil mind soon withdrawing itself from all sides, becomes firmly established in God " (Gita 2.64- 65) " The peace of yogarudh (one who is tranquil) sadhak is way to blessedness " (Gita 6.3) He has to respect sattvagun but not get attached to it. 2. Ego - There is always a fear of this ego - 'I am a good sadhak'. This will definitely spell doom for him. This is related to first point but I'm specifying it as different point because this is the most dangerous. To make him aware of this mistake, God sends unfavorable circumstances. 3. Mine-ness with inert - When a sadhak judges himself he judges them only by looking into mind, intellect, nature etc. The problem here is that with whom sadhak has to break his affinity he is looking into those things. The Self does not change, it remains as it is. Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING How much love you have developed for Bhagwaan. How much do you remember Bhagwaan, just like lovers (lover and the loved). IN HINDI Bhagwan ke prati kitna pyar hua hai Unki kitni yaad aati hai. Just like premi & premika Thanx Raja Gurdasani --------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji says that the less that we are attracted to the world and the more that our attraction, attachment, devotion to God increases, that much we have progressed spiritually. On having made spiritual progress, there is less attachment (passion, attraction, likes, desires) and aversion (dislikes, hatred, enmity) in worldly relations. There is less elation and dejection in worldly affairs. There is less pleasure or pain from worldly gains and losses. There is a peaceful feeling, ever cheerfulness and contentment. Meera Das Ram Ram --------------------- Best way to " judge " spiritual progress is in the absence of any yardsticks to measure the same as well as anything else. Best " yard stick " to measure spiritual progress is the absence of any need to judge the same as well as anything else. Absence of judgment as well as measurement altogether is The Spirituality. If at all one insists for one ... The Happiness is the " yard stick " to " measure " as well as the " basis " to " judge " one's spiritual progress ... because, The Happiness is the one that REQUIRES absence of both the qualities - judgment and measurement ... as far as one does not attempt to use The Happiness as an instrument to judge or measure anything as such. Respects. Naga Narayana ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING As the understanding gets deeper with experience and start getting near the true natural state...... there is increasing joy .......for no outside reasons........This means good progress....... When this inner happiness is not disturbed at all.....gets stabilized..... That is the state of bliss or moksha.....connection to the supercomputer of the universe... Self assessment or assessment by others of higher consciousness levels may be necessary to know if the direction needs correction.....But it is all very tricky. Mind plays in many ways and even a single thought could stop the progress further...... Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind... Wonderful way of knowing self............................. Sushil Jain ----------------------------- Hari Om Yardsticks as sought by you based on Swamiji's discourses and Gitaji: 1 The bouts of anger/greed are not now that frequent as they were in the past. 2 They don't come now with that high velocity and ferocity as they used into the past. 3 They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. 4 Divine properties as described in the BG 16:1 to 16:3 have started manifesting into you. Like fearlessness, clean conscience, austerity, tolerance, truthfulness, easyness, strightforwardness, non violence, giving to other, reading of holy scriptures, non fickleness, a shame in doing evil , radiance, forgiveness, etc In fact your spiritual progress can be judged from above yardsticks. Anger reduces, the frequency reduces, it remains for lesser time than in the past. I may add here that it is not very beneficial for a sadhak to keep observing as where does he stand in spiritual progress. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj also stated that one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. It is not a matter of worry but surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging also gives rise to comparison with another and then arises either pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex) . Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- Dear Sadak, Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama (desires), Krodh (anger), Lobha (greed) etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi (devotion and worship of God). B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- Dear Sadhkas, Namaskar It is good question...How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? I feel, by analysing the existing concepts of spirituality, he can know how far he is approaching the truth...the facts connected to his existance...Gee Waman ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING The following question was answered on May 14, 2008 in Kansas City Star. I t answers waht is spirituality, what absence of spirituality means. P hope ypu cam post this as the start of discussion. Thank you. Arvind Khetia Q: WHAT DOES THE TERM " SPIRITUALITY " MEAN IN YOUR FAITH? Ans: The universal and inclusive nature of Hinduism is derived from its emphasis on spirituality. The sages of ancient India contemplated on the nature of consciousness and realized that there is a divine presence at the core of all existence and within all human beings. Thus, behind this material world, at a deep spiritual level of consciousness, they realized an underlying unity. To realize one's inner divinity, Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad- Gita, " The Supreme Reality is revealed in the consciousness of those who have conquered themselves. " Thus, one's spiritual quest begins with cultivating self-control, detachment, truthfulness and non- violence, and culminates in realizing the ultimate Reality within oneself and in all of the existence. Thus, according to Vedanta (spiritual philosophy of Hinduism), spirituality is not just believing, but becoming. It requires an increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all. Then, one can transcend apparent differences based on race, religion or gender, and transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. The absence of spirituality creates the delusion of separateness resulting in a false sense of superiority. Consequently, exploitation, hatred, fear and violence follows. Swami Vivekananda correctly observed that, " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality, and the death of that race begins the day that spirituality wanes and materialism gains ground. " -------------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Spiritual progress is unlike progress we measure in worldly matters. One can measure over time noting the change between two points in time. Conventionally we may say spiritual progress just to encourage sadhakas on their way to liberation. however, time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. As such the understanding happens in flashes when one is least expecting. It's " aha wow.., now I know " moments accompanied by joy due to the absence of " me " . Such moments are brief in the starting, but they become more prevalent and asserting down the road. Bottom line is that progress, for the lack of better word, is when there is increasing joy without any cause! One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God which is Life! At this point in one's sadhana, only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God(vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains... namaskara............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Prepetina, Be very careful, because of the word judge, because one may start to think, " Well I meditate twice a day, and practice sacred rituals every day, she/he doesn't. I am much further along the path! " , you may start to judge others. Remember the two birds at the fountain. A true story: During my time in Singapore, I used to pass a very small Hindu Shrine, and there was this man there busy cleaning and tidying the Shrine and its surrounds on a daily basis. When he was done he used to sit in Lotus for hours in the sun, just where the path to the Shrine met the street pavement, but to one side, so as not to obstruct, (I presume), his eyes were always open, and the merest hint of a smile on his face. I mentioned this man of so long ago to a group of people we meditate with, asking what was he doing sitting there for so long, quite a few folk agreed with the comment made by one, " He was doing Gods Work " , another said, " After all you still remember him " , I do indeed, he was my,'Silent Guru'. B.G. Chapter 9 Those who direct their thoughts to Me, Worshiping Me with steadfast mind, For them I secure what they lack And preserve that which they possess. (22) The only yardstick I see is that you have started to do that which is described in Gitaji 9:22, as you have turned towards this Satsang, (a spiritual move). My simple humble advice is to get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor). ----------------------------- There are no yardsticks as such but with spiritual practices like sewa, sadhna, satsang and meditation if done properly and regularly one can notice the changes in one's thoughts, action , behaviour etc.. When one connects with one's Self, he or she will realise that all that we see is maya or an illusion and that the only true path and the goal for our soul is to become one with the Parmatma or God. After that we are spared from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------- SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES TO DATE - Spiritual progress is unlike progress in worldly matters - spirituality is not just believing, but becoming - Spirituality is increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all, thus transcending all differences. - Absence of spirituality creates delusion of separateness/superiority - transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. - Swami Vivekananda " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality... " - time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. - understanding happens in flashes.. It's " aha wow... One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God! Life! and only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God (vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains. - get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. - Bhagwaan (The Beloved) will secure what is lacking and preserve that which you possess - Only one goal - become one with Paramatma for eternal bliss - all else is maya. there are no yardsticks - Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama, Krodh, Lobha etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi. - reduction in frequency, velocity of anger/greed/desires and They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. Divine properties of Gita 16:1-3 - Yardstick - how far he is approaching the truth/existence - one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. Rather experience surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging leads to comparison resulting in pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex). Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. - increasing joy for no external reason. state of bliss or moksha - Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind. -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram Sadhaks, Let not any reading be casual. Let us use this opportunity to study the references and make them part of our daily lives. Thank you sadhaks for the extensive references. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------- A Question How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? Are there any yardsticks prescribed in Gita/Ramayana or other Scriptures? How does one know where is he standing at present? Prepetina G ----------------------------- NEW POSTING Jai Hanuman There you are Miraji Dass ! Yeah Bhandariji ! Immaculate divine timing of messages by Sadhaks ! This can't be planned ! It has to arrive from within !! Indeed by the end of fourth state and outset of fifth the element of Joy which the body attains to when the goblin of the mind ( duality) is extinguished, it does not reach that Joy even through sovereignity over the world. I do not see among living beings another virtue or felicity except the state of absence of the mind (equanimous mind, no fears or favours, no duality, no likings or dislikings, desirelessness ), which is the arrival of the autumnal season for the mist that is the delusion arising from the fever of all desires. Those persons with tranquil minds, who have gone to the state of absence of mind through their lofty intellect (viveka) , have alone arrived at the outmost limit of enjoyment of pleasures. Dear Sadhaks ! When copper that is the mind is purified and has gone to the state of gold that is the highest spiritual knowledge, there arises spontaneous happiness. Of what use are pieces of stone in the form of the body? That is the state Mira Dassji talked about in her latest message! Hats off to all you, Divine Sadhaks. Oye Keep going Jee ! Nectar is flowing. Take holy bath ! Virtuous Desire !! The first stage of knowledge is said to be " Subheccha " (virtuous desire) ! The second is " Vichaarana " ( investigation/reflection) . The third is " tanumaansa " (State of thin mind). The fourth would be sattvapati (attainment of Pure being). Then the state named asamsakti ( non-union, I e detachment from the objective world)- this is what Miraji referred by quoting Holy Gita and Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj. The sixth is padarthabhavani (non ideation of objects). The seventh is considered as turyaga. Liberation exists at the end of these stages. In that state as Miraji Dass stated one does not grieve for anything again. The Highest gain ! Dear Sadhaks ! All this starts with the desire in a human's mind : Why do I remain a mere fool? I shall reflect with the scriptures and virtuous people by indifference to the world. Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala -------------------------------- Divine All: Loving Pranams. In response to Vyasji's invitation (not that one is needed)... :-) Baba says that complete ignorance or complete knowledge is bliss, those in between stages are dangerous...! To me, in brief, the following are the stages: 1) Complete ignorance - nothing matters, don't care for anyhing, whatever one does is right from his/her perspective anyway, simply busy in worldly pleasures. Worldly enjoyments are wrongfully considered as bliss. 2) Some how, from somewhere, something suddenly happens, a spark falls on a pile of woods. This spark can be due to a sorrowful event, God/Guru's grace, temporary awakening moment (like smashaan vairaagya), etc. Depending on the dryness of the wood (readiness of the field - kshetra), fire is caught but we still remain mainly ignorant other than those occasional moments of awakening. This is the dangerous state as Baba calls it because lot of confusion, illusion, delusion, hallucination, imagination, belief system, attachments, etc. one knows them and yet don't know them. If one studies chapter 1 of BG carefully, one will recognize them based on Arjuna's baseless reasoning. To him the highest happiness was enjoying heaven or enjoying ruling over the 3 worlds (heaven, earth, paataal loka) or giving mukti to dead ancestors by performing some ceremonies, etc. etc. - all worldly stuff! However, he has received spiritual sparks now and than; major delusions but still some awareness so he accepts Krishna as his Guru in chapter 2:7 - shishyasteham shadi maam... 3) Now this little spark has turned into some sort of fire. The thirst for knowledge increases like Arjuna who keeps on asking all kinds of questions to Shri Krishna. We attend satsangs, read lot of books, practice some sadhana, etc. In this stage lot of things get cleared, lot of delusions are over come, lot of belief systems are broken, lot of 'I thought...' are removed. With lot more understanding, the attitude start changing, even thought there is lot of restlessness, relatively lot more peace and calmness start dawning. Lot more questions get answered. More light of the soul is seen, more experiences are accumulated, more faith and love springs and more joy/bliss starts dawning w/o any specific reasons. You can't relate cause and effect or say for sure that 1 + 1 = 2 only!!! In my view, this is the longest state for most of the sadhakas. 4) With whatever practices one follows - gyaan, karma, bhakti, etc., at this stage, your entire house is burning but you don't care like Rajarshri Janak!!! Sarvadharmaan parityajya... You have accepted God's command. Nothing of the world matters any more - all seem so stupid (pardon my expression) because one has awakened to know and understand that all is just a dream. We are nothing but a part of a play. This dream or play (nice or horrible) has ended from inside, however, to world and worldly people it continues but the one who has understood it, it has ended! Chapter 18 of BG - nashto moha... Even though it seems that ego is completely gone at this time it is not so, ego still remains but in subtle form. After war, Arjuna started boasting that he had killed, won war, bla, bla, bla... Krishna calls on to Bhima's son's head still hanging on one pole, who says that I only saw a chakra killing all (Bhaagwatam). 5) At this stage one has not just understood, but one just lives that way - jivan mukta - one's ego is completely annihilated, i.e., one becomes an EMBODIMENT of peace, love, compassion and harmony. One becomes ONE - Aham Brahmasmi, Not just 1+1 but 1+many results in ONE and only ONE - Vasudevam sarvam!!!!!!! I heard that Shri Ramakrishna Paramhams had real problem understanding math, to him 1+1 always equalled One. So now one totally remains in that oneness. Nothing remains to be known, done, understood, nothing what so ever!!! Please read Chapter 2 then Chapter 10 of BG. Soooo..., if one is asking what is next, one is not there yet and one must continue his/her efforts (even though they are not his/hers)! If any point is confusing, please feel free to raise a question. humble regards, always at Thy Loving, Peaceful and Blissful Feet Manjula Patel ----------------------- Hari Om THE BEST NON ATTACHMENT: Third Stage (contd) When the Reality, which is the further bank of the ocean of worldly existence, the Essence and the Supreme Cause, has arrived at firmly , like a fruit placed on the hand, By investigation; By Association with noble souls; By Separation from the wicked; By the use of one's own intellect within (Viveka) By manly effort (Purushartha) and By the employment of constant practice, (Meditation/Japa/Restraint/controls/niyamas etc) Then, ABIDING SILENTLY AND CALMLY, Having certainly cast far away the contemplation of the meanings of words such as , " I am not the doer; God is the doer or my action derived from prakrati (or Nature) is the doer, " .... Is called the best non-attachment. THE FOURTH STAGE When ignorance has reached its end due to the practice of the above three stages and when there is the appearance of true knowledge in the mind like the rising of the full moon, the yogin-s with one pointed minds who have gone to the fourth stage, perceive every thing equally, without division and without beginning and end. When NON-DUALITY HAS ATTAINED TO STABILITY AND DUALITY HAS REACHED ITS END, the ones who have gone to the fourth stage see the worlds like a dream !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- My dandavat pranams to all in this forum..... Such a beautiful question! I am not able to speak on any realized level, as I only see myself sunk in the modes of tamas (ignorance) and rajas (passion) in an unbroken flow, day after day....but I have heard from others that to be advanced on the path of love of God, one is above petty arguements. He disciplines his mind to not pay attention to small things, that cause friction. This is often referred to as " drama " , in todays world.....a God realized person is free from the constant drama which creates so much bad energy between individuals. Nor does one who is truly elevated criticize others. There is a verse in the Sri Upadesamrta of Srila Rupa Goswami, (verse 5)...... " krsneti yasya giri tam manasa driyeta, diksasti cet pranatibis ca bajantam isham, sushrusaya bhajana vijnam ananyam anyad, nindadi sunya hrdam ipsita sanga labdhya " " One should mentally honor the devotee who chants the holy Name of Lord Krsna, one should offer obeisances to the devotee who has undergone spiritual initiation and is engaged in worshiping the deity, and one should associate with and faithfully serve that pure devotee who is advanced in undeviated devotional service, and whose heart is completely devoid of the propensity to criticize others " . This verse, by Srila Rupa Gosvami (a contemporary of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu) is the yardstick by which we can gauge who is worthy of various degrees of reverence and worship, and simultaneously, we can look within ourselves to see if we are progressing toward the stage of an uttama adhikari, a topmost devotee of the Lord, who has no interest whatsoever in fault finding others, at any point in life. Such a high class devotee is very rare. Another concept to dwell on is the awareness that the Supreme Lord is present everywhee, within all things, within each and every person. Hence, to disrespect ANY individual is to disrespect the Lord who is seated within that persons heart, regardless of how degraded, or rude, or distasteful any given person may be. Still, the Lord has not left his heart. We can ask ourselves, " How much am I recognizing the Lord's presence in every situation? Seeing that He is the cause of all actions, and that there is always a lesson within each and every painful interaction, as well as letting myself always appreciate and remember Him amidst the celebrations, the gratificatory times? " Myself, personally, I pray to always remember that the Supreme Being is a loving Person. To more and more be aware that He is actively preparing situations for my remembrance of Him, actively trying to teach me to become more conscious, more sensitive, and more intune with His universal energy. Respectfully submitted, mahalaksmi Dasi Dandavat pranams. Mahalaksmi Dasi ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Swamiji says - when a sadhak comes to the understanding that he wants that happiness, that joy and bliss that has no shortage or limitation, and that which never ends. " Yam labdhvaa chaaparam laabham manyate naadhikam tatah; yaasminnisthato na dukhen gurnaapi vichaalyate tam vidhyaadukhsam yog viyogam yogasanjitam. " (Gita 6:22-23) " Having gained that state, he does not reckon any other gain greater than that, and wherein established, he is not shaken even by the greatest affliction. " This separation from the assumed union with world - prakriti(i.e. becoming Nirmamoha and Nirahankaar) and the realization that something like this is not possible without the grace of The Divine, and that he is only an instrument in the hands of The Divine - is a yardstick of spiritual progress. Bhagwaan asked Arjuna, if he had understood the Gita ? and Arjuna replied, " Nashto Moha, Smriti Labdhvaa, Tat Prasaadaa " All attachments are wiped out, and the Truth is now recollected, only by Your grace. " Karishye vachanam tavah " , I will follow Your command, Your words. Meera Das Ram Ram ---------------- Hari Om I always know Brother Mike speaks from his soul. Hence my invitation must have made many sadhaks richer. Gem in his own right, is this great Child of Universe ! Why not each of the really distinguished battery of sadhaks should share his/her experience ? O God ! Do not we have Sadhaks drawn from varied castes/ creeds/cultures/countries/civilisations/characters/colours ?? There lies the beauty, there lies the treasure for all to share. Mira Dassji, Rajaji, Pratapji, Shrikantji Joshi, Varunji, Shashikalaji, Manjulaji Patel, Naga Narainji, S S Bhattji, Sadhanaji Karigar, Madanji Kaura, Sarvottamji, B Sathyanarainji, Ashokji Goenka , AH Dalmiaji, KG Gopalji, Mahalaxmiji Dasi, Rajendra Bohraji, Respected Rameshji, Sophiaji, Suresh Sharmaji, Mrs G K Balaji, Narinder Bhandariji, Catherine Anderson, Nishaji, Adrien Meyers, Hanna Sandal, Ben, Shivji, - dozens and dozens and dozens others must be having, like Brother Mike Keenor , to narrate their paths, their personal views, their own sentiments/bhavas, leading them to HIM !!! Why not share them ? (Promise! I will share mine. Satsanga must reach divine heights. It shall !! I knew Brother Mike would respond instantly). Come On, Divine Brothers and Divine Sisters ! Even if sorrows are at centre, what is shame in stating that ? DUKHALAYAM ASHASHWATHAM !! There lies the crux ! This is Divinity !! THIRD STAGE ... To be Contd Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------------------- thank you Vyas jee.................thank you dear sadhaks................. what a divine feast we have in this sharing ........... the 'Three Stages ' mentioned by Vyas jee ................. are so delicious !I am looking forward to the Fourth dish ....... only one thing comes to the Mind, however,and that is ............... the words are only bridges to lead us to the other shore, the No-Mind. they are only 'indicators': the travelling is our own. Only when the other shore is reached, the words truly reveal to us the intelligence they contain !Peacefulness and Bliss follows .............. Bliss that embraces within itself all grief, all sorrow, all pain ! and narinder becomes aware of yet another paradox............... even the travelling is Grace, His Gift : the whole of the sadhna is a journey in the resolution of this paradox for oneself ............ may the Buddhas of all ages bless us and come to our aid ............ aum, Narinder Bhandari ......... ----------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadaks, Yardstick answer is: While just hearing Bagwan name the hair should stand, tears should come, body will feel ecstasy. Ref: Brindarinya Upanashid. Even Bagavan says similar words in Geetha at One instance This just like on hearing your most loved one` s name who is far away. Dont you feel heart felt joy. So when you are close to Bagavan alone you experience bliss. Jai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ Hari Om Indeed Sadhaks should attain momentum, as suggested by Divine Moderators of this GT Group. The third of the total 7 stages must encourage many to pursue the divine path : THE THIRD STAGE Having applied his mind steadily to the meaning (bhavas) of the words of Scriptures properly, he wears out his extended life seated on a couch of stone, with his rests in the hermitages of ascetics and with his participation in courses of narration concerning the Supreme Spirit, which blame worldly life and which are equally the steps in producing indifference to the world. INDIFFERENCE TO THE WORLD !! Ordinary Non attachment " Everything brought into existence by previous actions (pleasure or pain), is only dependent on God. What is my doership in the matter? The enjoyments of objects of pleasure are intense diseases. Riches are great misfortunes. Associations are only for separation. Anxieties are diseases of mind. Time is engaged in swallowing up all beings continuously " The annihilation ( " Fana " in Brother Mike's words ! ) of mental inclinations inwardly in the above manner, due to INDIFFERENCE of one with a mind fastened to the meanings of the sentences of Scriptures , is that ORDINARY NON-ATTACHMENT !! Dear Sadhaks ! Keep deliberating as to where each of us is placed and why? What prevents us from moving forward ? Feel free ! Feel enthusiastic ! Throw ego into the dust bin while expressing ! The best is on the way to touch your soul ! Next : The best non- attachment: The Fourth Stage Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------------------------- " If each year, the number of things or events, which can arouse your anger or lust grows smaller, you are making progress; if it remains the same, you are stagnating; if it increases, your spiritual development is regressing. " by: Paramacharya, Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham, Kanchi. Paritala Gopi Krishna ----------------------------- -Shree Hari- Brother Vyas, Reflecting on your invitation to share personal experiences, on the 'second stage', I printed your list so can I think about it as I type. Now during my time of change I found much support, in a sense I really did not have to look too hard it was always there, this I believe to be universal to all seekers, regardless of creed.(This is in agreement with Gitaji). For many years,(decades), I scrutinized scripture, (Christian), dissected customs, festivals holy days. I got hold of the earliest Greek/English text, I felt I was being assaulted by waves of blind dogma, blind worship. I was horrified with what mother church had done through history, to innocent cultures and people, and I felt sickened to my soul. You see dear Sadhaks, I remained spiritual through all this, never rejecting GOD. But I felt very, very, alone, like I was in a spiritual wilderness. In this dark time, I then suffered from agonizing pain that lasted for about a year, made me a virtual cripple. Oddly enough I was always drawn towards meditation, for so long I can't remember. My pride and ego took a hammering, through the pain, through my bewilderment, I realize now,(looking back), I was heading into what in the West is known as the 'Dark Night of the Soul', very few will talk about it,(I expect the Indian traditions have their own name for it, probably something to do with Shakti). Things got far worse, but I will not talk about it. But you see it is in that 'Dark Place', that you see the Rising Sun, the Light of Beloved. You NEVER come out of this place the way you go in, this Dark place is full of Grace you see. There is so much more, but suffice to say the points Brother Vyas made, in general, are a natural outcome of this process. Prepetinaji don't worry that was my soul chosen way. Yours could be all laughter and light. All Sadhaks have their story, I expect you have yours Brother Vyas. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor) ------------------------------ Hari Om I humbly suggest the following as good indicators of Spiritual Progress: - an incredible sense of calm, serenity, and absolute lack of concern or worry about anything. Lack of concern does not mean you are careless and reckless and ignore danger. And, those who are well- advanced in Spirituality do not have to make an attempt to be calm or still, even in the face of disastrous events. - a great yearning for anything that represents or is connected with Bhagavan, e.g. devotional music, scriptures, literature, company of sadhaks, and discussions on Spiritual matters. - no complaints, no shouting, no loud words, almost totally oblivious of the world around you, perfectly satisfied with whatever material possessions you have, e.g. clothes, car, home, food, furniture etc. - you seem to be surrounded by a aura of divinity and spirituality ( you are not! Lose the false ego): total strangers smile as they approach you, become friendly and relaxed in your presence, respect and even accept your views, and they have an intense desire to associate with you. - most of all, you genuinely believe there is a spark of divinity in every human being and you want to devote every moment of your life to serve others. Krishna S. Narinedath ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om We discussed conduct of a Sadhak in the first stage. I hope a majority of sadhaks of this Forum might have found themselves crossing that stage ! In second stage, Sadhak starts looking at Scriptures deeply in order to determine his conduct. Brother Mike ! Any personal experiences to share especially re the second stage? THE SECOND STAGE: He resorts to pre-eminent scholars, well known by their foremost exposition of Veds-s , texts of ethical and religious codes, virtuous conduct, concentration, meditation and rituals. Familiar with the division or arrangement of words and their meanings, he knows the settled rule relating to what ought to be done and what ought not to be done, as a householder knows his house. He gets rid of excessive pride, self conceit, jeolousy, delusion and greed, even dwelling outwardly a little in his worldly life, necessitated by circumstances, as a snake gets rid of its skin. One whose intellect is in this state, duly learns completely , along with the esoteric teachings, from following or devotion to Scriptures , the spiritual preceptor and wise (vituous ) persons ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------ Dear Sadhak Every body's progress towards spiritual development can be flt by the person himself.When Mirabai was singing the song of Lord Krishna then sometime she was crying and many time she was in estacy.Somiliarly was the case of Sri Chaitainya Maihaprabhu who was acting like Mirabai When we forget things in the service of God then we are nearer to God Sri Narsinh Mehta was reciting bhajan he forgot his own work.The same was the case of Gopis who were reciting the name of Gopal instead f milk or dahi which they have to sell. We have examin any such thing happening to us We achieve intutive power.We get the power to offer prayers for others These are the sing of spiritual developent These are my experiences at the age of eighty five ll my experiences are noted in my book on " Prayers of all Religions of the world. " May God Bless all Sadhaks who reading these Gita talks. Gita must be read alway only one chapter then see the result Sing Rama Dhuna at leaat for ten minutes and observe its result. There are many things to learn from saints like person.Gita talk can help us a lot Truly yours Shankerprasad S Bhatt ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari || Ram Ram || Dear Sadhak, Many excellent responses have already been posted on this important question. To summarize again, few simple marks are: Feeling at peace with oneself, not waiting for a future happening to feel happy, always in a state of equanimity in favorable and unfavorable circumstances or conditions, dispassion from the world, not thinking or doing bad to anyone. The other people who come in contact with such a sadhka would observe these traits in Sadhka, in terms of good behavior and vibrations of peace etc. As has been pointed by Swamiji Maharaj - what is really the need to know the marks for spiritual progress, because the only thing this knowledge can do for one is to boost the ego, one feels proud and tends to compare himself or herself with others who may not be at par with him or her. Being concerned about progress also can prove to be a distracter from the Sadhana which suggests the Sadhka has not set his goal (union with God), firmly as of yet. The good virtues coming in the sadhaka are not a result of his or her own effort but they are bestowed upon by God's grace only, that is why these virtues are called Divine treasure (Devic Sampati), for example: Arjuna was not aware of the Divine virtues in Him, Lord Krishna says to Arjuna - " Grieve not, thou are born with divine virtues " (Gita: 16-5) and " To you who does not cavil " (Gita: 9-1) and Arjuna says too - " My delusion is destroyed, I have gained my memory through your Grace " (Gita:18-73). In Ramayana too, Hanumanji is not aware of his strength till roused by Jamavan before crossing over to Lanka. When Lord praises him about his bravery, setting a fire to Lanka etc. he says he is only a monkey who only knows how to jump from one branch of the tree to the other, all was possible due to His grace only. The subject question was also about the references in Gita and Ramayana. Depending on mental make-up and choice, each individual may follow one of the four Yogas described in Gita. Many of the traits for each discipline are elaborated through out the Gita, at certain places these traits come as clusters of gems. The virtues mostly seem to be for the Sidhas (perfected souls) only but can be taken as a goal to attain for the Sadhkas. Few of the Verses are: KARMA YOGA (Discipline of Action) - Chapter II: 38, 47-50, 55-72 Chapter III:19-20, 30, 34, 36-37 Chapter IV: 20-23, 41-42 Chapter V:. 11-12 Chapter XVIII: 6, 9, 23, 26 JNANA YOGA (Discipline of Knowledge) - Chapter IV: 9-10 34, 36, 39 Chapter V: .. 7-9, 16-28 Chapter VI: 6-29 Chapter VII: 4-5, 8-12 Chapter X: 3-5 Chapter XIII: 7-11 Chapter XIV: 14/21-26 Chapter XV: 7 Chapter XVIII: 20, 51-53 BHAKTI YOGA (Discipline of Devotion) - Chapter V: 10 Chapter VI: 30-31 Chapter VII: 19 Chapter VIII:14 Chapter IX: 14, 22, 27-28, 30-31, 34 Chapter X: 8-10 Chapter XI: 55 Chapter XII: 13-20 Chapter XV: 5 Chapter XVI: 1-3 Chapter XVIII: 55, 65-66 DHAYANA YOGA (Discipline of Self Control) - Chapter VI: 14-18, 20-25 Chapter VIII: 8-13 In Tulsidas ji's Ram-charit-manas, there are many places, the Divine traits are described as the virtues of saints. For example: In Aryana Kandha, Lord Rama describes the navda Bhakti (nine-fold devotion) to Shabri (35-4 through 36/1-5), starting with: navadha bhakti kahau tohi pahi, savadhana sunu dharau mana mahi " Listen O good lady, to My words I recognize no other kinship except that of Devotion " In Aryana Kandha again: Lord describes these virtues to Narada: samtanha ke lacchana raguubira, kahahu natha bhava bhamjana bhira ... (45/3-5) sunu muni samtanha ke guna kahau, jinha te mat unha ke basa rahau sata bikara jita anagha akama, acala aklimcana suci sukhadhama amitabodha aniha mitbhogi, satyasara kabi kobida jogi savadhana manada madhina, dhira dharma gati param praina gunagar samsara dukha rahita bigata samdeha, " (Doha #46) taji mama carana saroja priya tinha kahudeha na geha Meaning: " O Rama, who are well versed in sacred lore: tell me, my Lord Raghuvira (Hero of Raghu's lineage), the distinguished marks of saints, O dispeller of fear of transmigration. I tell you, dear sage, the qualities of saints, by virtue of which they hold Me in subjection. They are masters of six passions (lust, anger, greed, infatuation, pride and jealousy), sinless, disinterested , firm, possessing nothing, pure (both within and without), full of bliss, of boundless wisdom, desire-less, moderate in diet, truthful, inspired, learned and united with God, circumspect, bestowing honor on others, free from pride, strong-minded and highly conversant with the coursed of Dharma (righteousness). " They are abodes of virtue, above the sorrows of the world and free from doubt. Nthing besides My lotus feet is dear to them, not even their body nor their home.†In Uttara Kandha, Lord Rama describes the divine virtues again at the request of Bharata: suna cahau prabhu inha kar lacchana, krpasimdhu guna gyana bicaccahana ... (37-2) " The gory of the saints, O Lord of the Raghus, has been sung in various ways by the Vedas and Puranas. You too have exalted them by your own graceful mouth and my Lord bears great affection for them. " ... continued to Doha #38. In Uttara Kandha, Kaka Bhusandi is describing virtues of saints when requested by Garuda: para upkar bacana mana kaya, samta sahaja subhau khagraya samata sahani dukha parahit lagi, paradukha hetu asamta abhagi brurja taru sama samta hkrpala, parahita niti saha bipati bisala .. (121/ 7-8) There is no blessing to equal to the communion with the God. To be charitable to others in thought and word, O king of birds, is the innate disposition of saints. The god endure pain in the interest of others, but evil wretches do so to give others pain. Tendencies saints like the birch tree, submit to the direst distress (even allow their bark to be torn off) for the good of their neighbors. || Ram Ram || Humble pranam, Madan Kaura ----------------------------- Hari Om For the benefit of all the sadhaks, I am pleased to present an article from one of the most respected Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma which charts out progression in a sadhak's life. I hope Sadhaks will find themselves in the narration. I will appreciate views of sadhaks/ their personal experiences on the below. THE FIRST STAGE: At the end of many births , a man becomes discriminating. He reflects THUS: " Alas ! The state of worldly life is worthless. Enough of this for me. " " How do I cross the ocean of worldly existence becoming one possessed of freedom from passion? " When a person with a virtuous mind becomes intent on reflection in this manner, he attains to indifference towards worldly pleasures in his inner thoughts day after day. He undertakes and rejoices in activities of a lofty nature every day. He always hesitates in doing vulgar and stupid actions. He does not speak of the defects of others. He pursues virtuous deeds, gentle deeds not causing agitation of mind. He is constantly afraid of sin. He does not hope for enjoyment. He speaks words, tender and proper, full of affection and friendship, which words are suitable to time and place. He honours virtuous people by thought, word and deed. He looks into Scriptures of spiritual knowledge, fetching them from some where or any one. Next time: The Second Stage Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- This question is tricky and I saw that Sadhaks mention 'do surrender', 'do not judge'. Truly, Yes! But for the mind that is sometimes a question for some people. Not every one is like the ones mentioned in the stories and to have such ocassional doubt not at all a detriment to saadhana. Like for any practice the sadhana has its 'ups' and 'downs'. During the 'up' we see the inner quite and peace, which is a indicator we are making a progress. The problem comes when there are 'downs'. By 'downs', I mean that saadhak do not feel the same inner peace (for whatever reasons, which is not the discussion point here!) and so would consider he / she is down the path. What actually is happening is that sadhak is working on the 'vaasanas' or the effects of the 'vasanaas'. If sadhak is patient and continue sadhana (be it meditation, yogasanas, mantra, tantra, bhajan or satsang) with determination the saadhak will soon see the 'up' and feel the experience. The measure is (whether you consciously judge or it unconsciously happens) that in the long run we start realizing quiteness / peace more frequently. Yes, sadhana towards God is the target, while the peace / quiteness is the fall out of the same. Regards Venu Komanduri ----------------------------- The easiest and best yardstick to measure one's spiritual progress is just to look back down the line of your life and compared yourself what you were and what you are, and if you find marked difference in your attitude positively and spiritual, then you are progressing. One need not ask anybody, it is all within. Love and Love alone..... -- Paritala Gopi Krishna ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING The single most measure for self evaluation is : The ability to abide peacefully and joyfully in the present,dealing with whatever situation Existence places you, without remorse or guilt of the past, and any anxiety for the future ( results) . AUM. narinder bhandari ----------------------------- Near & Dear Prepetina G, According to your Query, there is a single and unique yardstick to measure not only our spiritual progress but also our routine work, that is all the activities was, is, and will be done by us. That is our " MANA " in the sense HEART. It is my personal request that please listen to PRAVACHAN of MAHARAJ JI of the day of April-1991, You will definitely clear your doubts. If there is a single mistake in conveying this then please forgive me. Jag Mohan ------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Jag Mohanji, please specify exact date and time of pravachan. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram --------------- Spirituality & Progress Yardstick Gita clearly specifies the attributes of behaviour of a Yogi on the path to Nirvana (Godhood). One can find out progress by the following measures: How much of time in his waking day and sleep does one remain (i) unperturbed by external events and developments (ii) work, think and act with complete concentration without any desire to seek pleasure or satisfaction, (iii) does not feel the pressure of self-ego (the idea that I am doing/ thinking/ eating) (iv) sees every person as the same as no different from himself as manifestation of God, (v) without anger irrespective of whatever happens (vi) without disappointment irrespective of whatever happens (viii) without pride.... If the percentage of time under (i) to (viii) continously increases, there is progress. Basudeb Sen ------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Judging capacity or rights to judge the progress of anyone or self solely in the hands of GOD. Normally one who experienced a little of Bagavan have to go 2/3 births still more. Examples: Sant Namdev, even after Bagavan Paruranga (Sri Krishna) had direct touch with him, he was born again as Sant Tukaram who flew to Vaikunt. Jada Bharat in Sri Bagavath Puran took 2 births and then got liberated. Ramana Rishi said that he crossed few birth to understand that world is Maya and he remained attached to SAT. There were cases were Bakthas like Vilvamangalam who was regularly playing and living with Sri Krishna was deluded by a small mistake and had to take birth as a cow, then as a snake and then as plant Tulasi in Guruvayur. The tulasi leaves were on Ekadasi day was plucked from that so called Vilvamangal Tulasi tree and garlanded to sri Krishna and there after Vilvamangalam was with Bagavan. A person aiming at medal in a race normally never succeds. But a person who runs just for race with enthusiasm wins. So if one has slight desire to measure his yardstick, only falls rather than raising. There is a beatiful example from stories of Brindavan. A calf used to looking at Sri Krishna while grassing so pathetically, got liberated. When the Jeeva of calf leaving the body (Calf body) was wittnessed by a great saint at Brindavan. Saint asked Bagavan Sri Krishna, when such a grace is going to come for him. Sri Krishna said, " Oh saint, the calf was looking at me with mind set saying that it is was expressing it`s total inability even to think of ME (Sri Krishna). So the calf had total surrender and no atom of I- ness. Where as you think you are saint, that which is obstacle for you " . Sadaks, we are desiring for infenity, SAT, unchanging bliss, so our input quality can be only measured by Bagavan. Surrender to HIM and progress. To judge your exam paper you dont do. Somebody does. This is for education and earning for survival not for liberation. Then imagine for liberation-What? Jai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan ----------------------------- Pranam Meeraji, How to create such intense longing for GOD? Varun P. Paprunia ----------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji says that when the longing is so intense for God that one remembers nothing but God and only God. Besides God, nothing is attractive. Nothing in the world is appealing, absolutely nothing else - " Ab kuch bhi nahin suhaave, ek tu hi mana bhaave. " Only You and You alone. During the day there is no hunger, nor thirst, at night there is no desire to sleep, time and time again there is that one and only one intense longing - " Din nahin bhookh, raine nahin nidraa, chin chin vyaakul hot hiyaa. " There is no laughter, there is intense uneasiness and longing - when will I behold Him!!! Meera Das Ram Ram ----------------------------- From Drops Of Nectar, chapter 27, page 41 397. In the beginning, to a sadhak God appears to be far off, then He seems closer, then sadhak sees God within his own Self, and later he sees nothing, but only God. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/englishbooks/english% 20book%20layout/The%20Drops%20Nector/main.html Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia Swamiji has said that A sadhak should judge his spiritual progress only when he is in doubt. Compared to his previous state before becoming a sadhak, he will definitely notice some difference. If he has no doubt then he should never judge himself, he should just be steadfast in his practice. If he starts judging then there are some pitfalls: 1. Complacency - If he becomes complacent at his present state then he will not strive for further perfection. Also the present state of peacefulness will not last because attachment of sattvik also leads to bondage. " Sattvagun binds through attachment of peace and knowledge " (Gita 14.6) It does not mean that sadhak does not has to respect peace and knowledge of sattvagun. He has to respect that peace and also protect it because that will only lead to emancipation. " But the self-controlled sadhak, while enjoying the various sense- objects through his senses, which are disciplined and free from likes and dislikes, attains of placidity of mind. With the attainment of such placidity of mind, all his sorrows come to an end; and the intellect of such a tranquil mind soon withdrawing itself from all sides, becomes firmly established in God " (Gita 2.64- 65) " The peace of yogarudh (one who is tranquil) sadhak is way to blessedness " (Gita 6.3) He has to respect sattvagun but not get attached to it. 2. Ego - There is always a fear of this ego - 'I am a good sadhak'. This will definitely spell doom for him. This is related to first point but I'm specifying it as different point because this is the most dangerous. To make him aware of this mistake, God sends unfavorable circumstances. 3. Mine-ness with inert - When a sadhak judges himself he judges them only by looking into mind, intellect, nature etc. The problem here is that with whom sadhak has to break his affinity he is looking into those things. The Self does not change, it remains as it is. Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING How much love you have developed for Bhagwaan. How much do you remember Bhagwaan, just like lovers (lover and the loved). IN HINDI Bhagwan ke prati kitna pyar hua hai Unki kitni yaad aati hai. Just like premi & premika Thanx Raja Gurdasani --------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji says that the less that we are attracted to the world and the more that our attraction, attachment, devotion to God increases, that much we have progressed spiritually. On having made spiritual progress, there is less attachment (passion, attraction, likes, desires) and aversion (dislikes, hatred, enmity) in worldly relations. There is less elation and dejection in worldly affairs. There is less pleasure or pain from worldly gains and losses. There is a peaceful feeling, ever cheerfulness and contentment. Meera Das Ram Ram --------------------- Best way to " judge " spiritual progress is in the absence of any yardsticks to measure the same as well as anything else. Best " yard stick " to measure spiritual progress is the absence of any need to judge the same as well as anything else. Absence of judgment as well as measurement altogether is The Spirituality. If at all one insists for one ... The Happiness is the " yard stick " to " measure " as well as the " basis " to " judge " one's spiritual progress ... because, The Happiness is the one that REQUIRES absence of both the qualities - judgment and measurement ... as far as one does not attempt to use The Happiness as an instrument to judge or measure anything as such. Respects. Naga Narayana ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING As the understanding gets deeper with experience and start getting near the true natural state...... there is increasing joy .......for no outside reasons........This means good progress....... When this inner happiness is not disturbed at all.....gets stabilized..... That is the state of bliss or moksha.....connection to the supercomputer of the universe... Self assessment or assessment by others of higher consciousness levels may be necessary to know if the direction needs correction.....But it is all very tricky. Mind plays in many ways and even a single thought could stop the progress further...... Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind... Wonderful way of knowing self............................. Sushil Jain ----------------------------- Hari Om Yardsticks as sought by you based on Swamiji's discourses and Gitaji: 1 The bouts of anger/greed are not now that frequent as they were in the past. 2 They don't come now with that high velocity and ferocity as they used into the past. 3 They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. 4 Divine properties as described in the BG 16:1 to 16:3 have started manifesting into you. Like fearlessness, clean conscience, austerity, tolerance, truthfulness, easyness, strightforwardness, non violence, giving to other, reading of holy scriptures, non fickleness, a shame in doing evil , radiance, forgiveness, etc In fact your spiritual progress can be judged from above yardsticks. Anger reduces, the frequency reduces, it remains for lesser time than in the past. I may add here that it is not very beneficial for a sadhak to keep observing as where does he stand in spiritual progress. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj also stated that one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. It is not a matter of worry but surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging also gives rise to comparison with another and then arises either pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex) . Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- Dear Sadak, Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama (desires), Krodh (anger), Lobha (greed) etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi (devotion and worship of God). B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- Dear Sadhkas, Namaskar It is good question...How does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? I feel, by analysing the existing concepts of spirituality, he can know how far he is approaching the truth...the facts connected to his existance...Gee Waman ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING The following question was answered on May 14, 2008 in Kansas City Star. I t answers waht is spirituality, what absence of spirituality means. P hope ypu cam post this as the start of discussion. Thank you. Arvind Khetia Q: WHAT DOES THE TERM " SPIRITUALITY " MEAN IN YOUR FAITH? Ans: The universal and inclusive nature of Hinduism is derived from its emphasis on spirituality. The sages of ancient India contemplated on the nature of consciousness and realized that there is a divine presence at the core of all existence and within all human beings. Thus, behind this material world, at a deep spiritual level of consciousness, they realized an underlying unity. To realize one's inner divinity, Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad- Gita, " The Supreme Reality is revealed in the consciousness of those who have conquered themselves. " Thus, one's spiritual quest begins with cultivating self-control, detachment, truthfulness and non- violence, and culminates in realizing the ultimate Reality within oneself and in all of the existence. Thus, according to Vedanta (spiritual philosophy of Hinduism), spirituality is not just believing, but becoming. It requires an increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all. Then, one can transcend apparent differences based on race, religion or gender, and transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. The absence of spirituality creates the delusion of separateness resulting in a false sense of superiority. Consequently, exploitation, hatred, fear and violence follows. Swami Vivekananda correctly observed that, " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality, and the death of that race begins the day that spirituality wanes and materialism gains ground. " -------------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Spiritual progress is unlike progress we measure in worldly matters. One can measure over time noting the change between two points in time. Conventionally we may say spiritual progress just to encourage sadhakas on their way to liberation. however, time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. As such the understanding happens in flashes when one is least expecting. It's " aha wow.., now I know " moments accompanied by joy due to the absence of " me " . Such moments are brief in the starting, but they become more prevalent and asserting down the road. Bottom line is that progress, for the lack of better word, is when there is increasing joy without any cause! One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God which is Life! At this point in one's sadhana, only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God(vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains... namaskara............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Prepetina, Be very careful, because of the word judge, because one may start to think, " Well I meditate twice a day, and practice sacred rituals every day, she/he doesn't. I am much further along the path! " , you may start to judge others. Remember the two birds at the fountain. A true story: During my time in Singapore, I used to pass a very small Hindu Shrine, and there was this man there busy cleaning and tidying the Shrine and its surrounds on a daily basis. When he was done he used to sit in Lotus for hours in the sun, just where the path to the Shrine met the street pavement, but to one side, so as not to obstruct, (I presume), his eyes were always open, and the merest hint of a smile on his face. I mentioned this man of so long ago to a group of people we meditate with, asking what was he doing sitting there for so long, quite a few folk agreed with the comment made by one, " He was doing Gods Work " , another said, " After all you still remember him " , I do indeed, he was my,'Silent Guru'. B.G. Chapter 9 Those who direct their thoughts to Me, Worshiping Me with steadfast mind, For them I secure what they lack And preserve that which they possess. (22) The only yardstick I see is that you have started to do that which is described in Gitaji 9:22, as you have turned towards this Satsang, (a spiritual move). My simple humble advice is to get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor). ----------------------------- There are no yardsticks as such but with spiritual practices like sewa, sadhna, satsang and meditation if done properly and regularly one can notice the changes in one's thoughts, action , behaviour etc.. When one connects with one's Self, he or she will realise that all that we see is maya or an illusion and that the only true path and the goal for our soul is to become one with the Parmatma or God. After that we are spared from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------- SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES TO DATE - Spiritual progress is unlike progress in worldly matters - spirituality is not just believing, but becoming - Spirituality is increasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all, thus transcending all differences. - Absence of spirituality creates delusion of separateness/superiority - transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion, empathy and non-violence. - Swami Vivekananda " … the strength of every race lies in its spirituality... " - time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence. - understanding happens in flashes.. It's " aha wow... One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in terms of steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God! Life! and only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God (vasudev sarvam), and absence of " me " , or I AM THAT remains. - get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure your spiritual worth. - Bhagwaan (The Beloved) will secure what is lacking and preserve that which you possess - Only one goal - become one with Paramatma for eternal bliss - all else is maya. there are no yardsticks - Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama, Krodh, Lobha etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi. - reduction in frequency, velocity of anger/greed/desires and They don't remain that long as they used to in the past. Divine properties of Gita 16:1-3 - Yardstick - how far he is approaching the truth/existence - one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above. Rather experience surprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging leads to comparison resulting in pride(superiority complex) or frustration (inferiority complex). Both do not help sadhak and are avoidable. - increasing joy for no external reason. state of bliss or moksha - Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are the attributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind. -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Shree HariRam RamSadhaks, Let not any reading be casual. Let us use thisopportunity to study the references and make them part of our dailylives. Thank you sadhaks for the extensive references.Gita Talk Moderators,Ram Ram--------------------------A QuestionHow does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? Arethere any yardsticks prescribed in Gita/Ramayana or otherScriptures? How does one know where is he standing at present?Prepetina G-----------------------------NEW POSTING Hari OmYes Manjulaji ! World indeed does start looking like a dream. See how divinely your message matches with Holy Scriptures ! My last posting ended with the same- taken always AS IT IS from Yoga Vaashishtha. Both messages got simultaneously posted. One from Scriptures, one from a Sadhak of Divine path. Such are holy rays of the divine days , not coincidences. They are boosters ! Ways are different, but in the end all meet. Indeed a lot of things burn in the fire of knowledge - even the false householder, ego, burns what to say of the house. Ego takes the mighty hits, crumbles and divine rays enter from the cracks into the deep within. Welcome Krishna Narinedathji. A beautiful message indeed for all of us! What to say of Miraji Dass ! My Pranaams for being on dot as always. Narinder Bhandariji ! Thanks to Saints of Sanatan Dharma- here to Sage Vaashishtha. Vasudeva Sarvam. Yes Mahalaxmiji. Till we disrespect any body, we have not advanced in reality towards BG 7:19 ! No one is bad. Based on our bhavas only the other appears to us. God is doing Lila of Kaliyuga. One simply can not enter Vasudeva Sarvam till he sees Him Only in evil, in disrespect, in sorrow, in the unpleasant, and in rajasic, sattwik and tamasic modes too, always doing Lila according to Time..That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for you Dear Sadhaks ! (Refer latest article by Swamiji in Kalyaan). It is not that only tamasic and rajasic modes prevail in us. Without your being in sattwik mode such a beautiful message can not be shared by you so gracefully to all of us. Thanks.THE FIFTH STAGEThe one who has gone to the fifth stage lives only with Pure Being as remainder.Having arrived at the fifth stage which has the name "the place of profound repose", the person, with all his distinguishing parts or features abated, LIVES IN MERE NON DUALITY. Risen with the appearance of duality vanished, he is the one who has awakened within. (Refer also BG 7:28/29- "dvandamoha nirmukta" - free from duality - from pair of opposites. Sadhaks may set these verses as goal. Brother Mike also referred this recently in one of his messages- these verses are creams of Holy Gita- ends of express highways leading to Him )The one who has gone to the fifth stage exists only in uninterrupted deep sleep ( rather profound repose) , remaining with inwardness of consciousness, though WHOLLY ENGAGED IN EXTERNAL ACTIONS. The one without desires, doing repeated practice in this stage, ( Jap/Keertan/ Meditation/ Worship/Penances/duty/service/yajna/ swadharma/surrender/ austerity - Hey Naath main apko bhoolu nahin- O God let me not forget you ) , is seen as if asleep ALWAYS due to much tranquility. Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B --- Jai Sita Ram The insights provided by Sadhika Manjula Patel for sadhaks were soul touching. In fact we learn more by direct personal experiences. Such selfless expressions will make this Satsanga more and more divine. I also liked Mike Keenor's assurance to Prepetina to be highly encouraging. Sir, can one cross this ocean with happiness and laughter? How to do that, Sir ? What are the precise lessons which you would like to share with us, which lessons you learnt the hard way? To reach such clarity levels, indeed, Paramatma's grace was required. But what according to you helped you most, other than that? You see, Mike Sir, you turned to Geetaji under a genuine need of your soul. When a person turns to anything with a purpose, he has the advantage of knowing better than others. Please enlighten us as to how we should conduct to be on the same level of clarity, perception, and devotion. Do you think Sir that humans are mere puppets in the hands of Divine or they are independent till they say - I am tired now? With respects Anirudh Joshi ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTINGSwamiji says - when a sadhak comes to the understanding that he wants thathappiness, that joy and bliss that has no shortage or limitation, and that whichnever ends."Yam labdhvaa chaaparam laabham manyate naadhikam tatah; yaasminnisthato nadukhen gurnaapi vichaalyate tam vidhyaadukhsam yog viyogam yogasanjitam." (Gita6:22-23)"Having gained that state, he does not reckon any other gain greater than that,and wherein established, he is not shaken even by the greatest affliction."This separation from the assumed union with world - prakriti(i.e. becomingNirmamoha and Nirahankaar) and the realization that something like this is notpossible without the grace of The Divine, and that he is only an instrument inthe hands of The Divine - is a yardstick of spiritual progress.Bhagwaan asked Arjuna, if he had understood the Gita ? and Arjuna replied,"Nashto Moha, Smriti Labdhvaa, Tat Prasaadaa" All attachments are wiped out, andthe Truth is now recollected, only by Your grace. "Karishye vachanam tavah", Iwill follow Your command, Your words.Meera DasRam Ram----------------Hari OmI always know Brother Mike speaks from his soul. Hence my invitation must havemade many sadhaks richer. Gem in his own right, is this great Child of Universe! Why not each of the really distinguished battery of sadhaks should sharehis/her experience ? O God ! Do not we have Sadhaks drawn from varied castes/creeds/cultures/countries/civilisations/characters/colours ?? There lies thebeauty, there lies the treasure for all to share. Mira Dassji, Rajaji, Pratapji,Shrikantji Joshi, Varunji, Shashikalaji, Manjulaji Patel, Naga Narainji, S SBhattji, Sadhanaji Karigar, Madanji Kaura, Sarvottamji, B Sathyanarainji,Ashokji Goenka , AH Dalmiaji, KG Gopalji, Mahalaxmiji Dasi, Rajendra Bohraji,Respected Rameshji, Sophiaji, Suresh Sharmaji, Mrs G K Balaji, NarinderBhandariji, Catherine Anderson, Nishaji, Adrien Meyers, Hanna Sandal, Ben,Shivji, - dozens and dozens and dozens others must be having, like Brother MikeKeenor , to narrate their paths, their personal views, their ownsentiments/bhavas, leading them to HIM !!! Why not share them ? (Promise! I willshare mine. Satsanga must reach divine heights. It shall !! I knew Brother Mikewould respond instantly). Come On, Divine Brothers and Divine Sisters ! Even ifsorrows are at centre, what is shame in stating that ? DUKHALAYAM ASHASHWATHAM!! There lies the crux ! This is Divinity !!THIRD STAGE ... To be ContdJai Shree KrishnaVyas N B----------------------thank you Vyas jee.................thank you dear sadhaks.................what a divine feast we have in this sharing ...........the 'Three Stages ' mentioned by Vyas jee ................. are so delicious !Iam looking forward to the Fourth dish .......only one thing comes to the Mind, however,and that is ............... the wordsare only bridges to lead us to the other shore, the No-Mind. they are only 'indicators': the travelling is our own. Only when the other shore is reached,the words truly reveal to us the intelligence they contain !Peacefulness andBliss follows .............. Bliss that embraces within itself all grief, allsorrow, all pain !and narinder becomes aware of yet another paradox............... even thetravelling is Grace, His Gift : the whole of the sadhna is a journey in theresolution of this paradox for oneself ............may the Buddhas of all ages bless us and come to our aid ............aum,Narinder Bhandari .........-----------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadaks,Yardstick answer is: While just hearing Bagwan name the hair should stand, tearsshould come, body will feel ecstasy. Ref: Brindarinya Upanashid. Even Bagavansays similar words in Geetha at One instanceThis just like on hearing your most loved one` s name who is far away. Dont youfeel heart felt joy. So when you are close to Bagavan alone you experiencebliss.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan------------------------------Hari OmIndeed Sadhaks should attain momentum, as suggested by DivineModerators of this GT Group. The third of the total 7 stages mustencourage many to pursue the divine path :THE THIRD STAGEHaving applied his mind steadily to the meaning (bhavas) of thewords of Scriptures properly, he wears out his extended life seatedon a couch of stone, with his rests in the hermitages of asceticsand with his participation in courses of narration concerning theSupreme Spirit, which blame worldly life and which are equally thesteps in producing indifference to the world.INDIFFERENCE TO THE WORLD !!Ordinary Non attachment"Everything brought into existence by previous actions (pleasure orpain), is only dependent on God. What is my doership in the matter?The enjoyments of objects of pleasure are intense diseases. Richesare great misfortunes. Associations are only for separation.Anxieties are diseases of mind. Time is engaged in swallowing up allbeings continuously"The annihilation ( "Fana" in Brother Mike's words ! ) of mentalinclinations inwardly in the above manner, due to INDIFFERENCE ofone with a mind fastened to the meanings of the sentences ofScriptures , is that ORDINARY NON-ATTACHMENT !!Dear Sadhaks ! Keep deliberating as to where each of us is placedand why? What prevents us from moving forward ? Feel free ! Feelenthusiastic ! Throw ego into the dust bin while expressing ! Thebest is on the way to touch your soul !Next : The best non- attachment: The Fourth StageJai Shree KrishnaVyas N B----------------------------"If each year, the number of things or events, which can arouse your anger orlust grows smaller, you are making progress; if it remains the same, you arestagnating; if it increases, your spiritual development is regressing." by:Paramacharya, Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham, Kanchi.Paritala Gopi Krishna------------------------------Shree Hari-Brother Vyas,Reflecting on your invitation to share personal experiences, on the'second stage', I printed your list so can I think about it as Itype.Now during my time of change I found much support, in a sense Ireally did not have to look too hard it was always there, this Ibelieve to be universal to all seekers, regardless of creed.(This isin agreement with Gitaji).For many years,(decades), I scrutinized scripture, (Christian),dissected customs, festivals holy days. I got hold of the earliestGreek/English text, I felt I was being assaulted by waves of blinddogma, blind worship. I was horrified with what mother church haddone through history, to innocent cultures and people, and I feltsickened to my soul. You see dear Sadhaks, I remained spiritualthrough all this, never rejecting GOD. But I felt very, very, alone,like I was in a spiritual wilderness.In this dark time, I then suffered from agonizing pain that lastedfor about a year, made me a virtual cripple.Oddly enough I was always drawn towards meditation, for so long Ican't remember.My pride and ego took a hammering, through the pain, through mybewilderment, I realize now,(looking back), I was heading into whatin the West is known as the 'Dark Night of the Soul', very few willtalk about it,(I expect the Indian traditions have their own namefor it, probably something to do with Shakti).Things got far worse, but I will not talk about it.But you see it is in that 'Dark Place', that you see the Rising Sun,the Light of Beloved.You NEVER come out of this place the way you go in, this Dark placeis full of Grace you see.There is so much more, but suffice to say the points Brother Vyasmade, in general, are a natural outcome of this process.Prepetinaji don't worry that was my soul chosen way. Yours could beall laughter and light.All Sadhaks have their story, I expect you have yours Brother Vyas.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor)------------------------------Hari OmI humbly suggest the following as good indicators of SpiritualProgress:- an incredible sense of calm, serenity, and absolute lack ofconcern or worry about anything. Lack of concern does not mean youare careless and reckless and ignore danger. And, those who are well-advanced in Spirituality do not have to make an attempt to be calmor still, even in the face of disastrous events.- a great yearning for anything that represents or is connected withBhagavan, e.g. devotional music, scriptures, literature, company ofsadhaks, and discussions on Spiritual matters.- no complaints, no shouting, no loud words, almost totallyoblivious of the world around you, perfectly satisfied with whatevermaterial possessions you have, e.g. clothes, car, home, food,furniture etc.- you seem to be surrounded by a aura of divinity and spirituality (you are not!Lose the false ego): total strangers smile as they approach you,become friendly and relaxed in your presence, respect and evenaccept your views, and they have an intense desire to associate withyou.- most of all, you genuinely believe there is a spark of divinity inevery human being andyou want to devote every moment of your life to serve others.Krishna S. Narinedath------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGHari OmWe discussed conduct of a Sadhak in the first stage. I hope amajority of sadhaks of this Forum might have found themselvescrossing that stage ! In second stage, Sadhak starts looking atScriptures deeply in order to determine his conduct. Brother Mike !Any personal experiences to share especially re the second stage?THE SECOND STAGE:He resorts to pre-eminent scholars, well known by their foremostexposition of Veds-s , texts of ethical and religious codes,virtuous conduct, concentration, meditation and rituals.Familiar with the division or arrangement of words and theirmeanings, he knows the settled rule relating to what ought to bedone and what ought not to be done, as a householder knows his house.He gets rid of excessive pride, self conceit, jeolousy, delusion andgreed, even dwelling outwardly a little in his worldly life,necessitated by circumstances, as a snake gets rid of its skin.One whose intellect is in this state, duly learns completely , alongwith the esoteric teachings, from following or devotion toScriptures , the spiritual preceptor and wise (vituous ) persons !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------Dear SadhakEvery body's progress towards spiritual development can be flt bythe person himself.When Mirabai was singing the song of Lord Krishnathen sometime she was crying and many time she was inestacy.Somiliarly was the case of Sri Chaitainya Maihaprabhu whowas acting like MirabaiWhen we forget things in the service of God then we are nearer toGod Sri Narsinh Mehta was reciting bhajan he forgot his own work.Thesame was the case of Gopis who were reciting the name of Gopalinstead f milk or dahi which they have to sell.We have examin any such thing happening to us We achieve intutivepower.We get the power to offer prayers for others These are thesing of spiritual developent These are my experiences at the age ofeighty five ll my experiences are noted in my book on "Prayers ofall Religions of the world." May God Bless all Sadhaks who readingthese Gita talks. Gita must be read alway only one chapter then seethe result Sing Rama Dhuna at leaat for ten minutes and observe itsresult. There are many things to learn from saints like person.Gitatalk can help us a lotTruly yoursShankerprasad S Bhatt-----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGShree Hari|| Ram Ram ||Dear Sadhak,Many excellent responses have already been posted on this importantquestion. To summarize again, few simple marks are: Feeling at peacewith oneself, not waiting for a future happening to feel happy,always in a state of equanimity in favorable and unfavorablecircumstances or conditions, dispassion from the world, not thinkingor doing bad to anyone. The other people who come in contact withsuch a sadhka would observe these traits in Sadhka, in terms of goodbehavior and vibrations of peace etc.As has been pointed by Swamiji Maharaj - what is really the need toknow the marks for spiritual progress, because the only thing thisknowledge can do for one is to boost the ego, one feels proud andtends to compare himself or herself with others who may not be atpar with him or her. Being concerned about progress also can proveto be a distracter from the Sadhana which suggests the Sadhka hasnot set his goal (union with God), firmly as of yet.The good virtues coming in the sadhaka are not a result of his orher own effort but they are bestowed upon by God's grace only, thatis why these virtues are called Divine treasure (Devic Sampati), forexample:Arjuna was not aware of the Divine virtues in Him, Lord Krishna saysto Arjuna - "Grieve not, thou are born with divine virtues" (Gita:16-5) and "To you who does not cavil" (Gita: 9-1) and Arjuna saystoo - "My delusion is destroyed, I have gained my memory throughyour Grace" (Gita:18-73). In Ramayana too, Hanumanji is not aware ofhis strength till roused by Jamavan before crossing over to Lanka.When Lord praises him about his bravery, setting a fire to Lankaetc. he says he is only a monkey who only knows how to jump from onebranch of the tree to the other, all was possible due to His graceonly.The subject question was also about the references in Gita andRamayana. Depending on mental make-up and choice, each individualmay follow one of the four Yogas described in Gita. Many of thetraits for each discipline are elaborated through out the Gita, atcertain places these traits come as clusters of gems. The virtuesmostly seem to be for the Sidhas (perfected souls) only but can betaken as a goal to attain for the Sadhkas.Few of the Verses are:KARMA YOGA (Discipline of Action) -Chapter II: 38, 47-50, 55-72Chapter III:19-20, 30, 34, 36-37Chapter IV: 20-23, 41-42Chapter V:. 11-12Chapter XVIII: 6, 9, 23, 26JNANA YOGA (Discipline of Knowledge) -Chapter IV: 9-10 34, 36, 39Chapter V: .. 7-9, 16-28Chapter VI: 6-29Chapter VII: 4-5, 8-12Chapter X: 3-5Chapter XIII: 7-11Chapter XIV: 14/21-26Chapter XV: 7Chapter XVIII: 20, 51-53BHAKTI YOGA (Discipline of Devotion) -Chapter V: 10Chapter VI: 30-31Chapter VII: 19Chapter VIII:14Chapter IX: 14, 22, 27-28, 30-31, 34Chapter X: 8-10Chapter XI: 55Chapter XII: 13-20Chapter XV: 5Chapter XVI: 1-3Chapter XVIII: 55, 65-66DHAYANA YOGA (Discipline of Self Control) -Chapter VI: 14-18, 20-25Chapter VIII: 8-13In Tulsidas ji's Ram-charit-manas, there are many places, the Divinetraits are described as the virtues of saints. For example:In Aryana Kandha, Lord Rama describes the navda Bhakti (nine-folddevotion) to Shabri (35-4 through 36/1-5), starting with:navadha bhakti kahau tohi pahi, savadhana sunu dharau mana mahi"Listen O good lady, to My words I recognize no other kinship exceptthat of Devotion"In Aryana Kandha again: Lord describes these virtues to Narada:samtanha ke lacchana raguubira, kahahu natha bhava bhamjanabhira ... (45/3-5)sunu muni samtanha ke guna kahau, jinha te mat unha ke basa rahausata bikara jita anagha akama, acala aklimcana suci sukhadhamaamitabodha aniha mitbhogi, satyasara kabi kobida jogisavadhana manada madhina, dhira dharma gati param prainagunagar samsara dukha rahita bigata samdeha," (Doha #46)taji mama carana saroja priya tinha kahudeha na gehaMeaning:"O Rama, who are well versed in sacred lore: tell me, my LordRaghuvira (Hero of Raghu's lineage), the distinguished marks ofsaints, O dispeller of fear of transmigration. I tell you, dearsage, the qualities of saints, by virtue of which they hold Me insubjection. They are masters of six passions (lust, anger, greed,infatuation, pride and jealousy), sinless, disinterested , firm,possessing nothing, pure (both within and without), full of bliss,of boundless wisdom, desire-less, moderate in diet, truthful,inspired, learned and united with God, circumspect, bestowing honoron others, free from pride, strong-minded and highly conversant withthe coursed of Dharma (righteousness)."They are abodes of virtue, above the sorrows of the world and freefrom doubt. Nthing besides My lotus feet is dear to them, not eventheir body nor their home.â€In Uttara Kandha, Lord Rama describes the divine virtues again atthe request of Bharata:suna cahau prabhu inha kar lacchana, krpasimdhu guna gyanabicaccahana ... (37-2)"The gory of the saints, O Lord of the Raghus, has been sung invarious ways by the Vedas and Puranas. You too have exalted them byyour own graceful mouth and my Lord bears great affection forthem." ... continued to Doha #38.In Uttara Kandha, Kaka Bhusandi is describing virtues of saints whenrequested by Garuda:para upkar bacana mana kaya, samta sahaja subhau khagrayasamata sahani dukha parahit lagi, paradukha hetu asamta abhagibrurja taru sama samta hkrpala, parahita niti saha bipati bisala ..(121/ 7-8)There is no blessing to equal to the communion with the God. To becharitable to others in thought and word, O king of birds, is theinnate disposition of saints. The god endure pain in the interest ofothers, but evil wretches do so to give others pain. Tendenciessaints like the birch tree, submit to the direst distress (evenallow their bark to be torn off) for the good of their neighbors.|| Ram Ram ||Humble pranam,Madan Kaura-----------------------------Hari OmFor the benefit of all the sadhaks, I am pleased to present anarticle from one of the most respected Scriptures of Sanatan Dharmawhich charts out progression in a sadhak's life. I hope Sadhaks willfind themselves in the narration.I will appreciate views of sadhaks/ their personal experiences onthe below.THE FIRST STAGE:At the end of many births , a man becomes discriminating. Hereflects THUS: "Alas ! The state of worldly life is worthless.Enough of this for me. ""How do I cross the ocean of worldly existence becoming onepossessed of freedom from passion?" When a person with a virtuousmind becomes intent on reflection in this manner, he attains toindifference towards worldly pleasures in his inner thoughts dayafter day. He undertakes and rejoices in activities of a loftynature every day.He always hesitates in doing vulgar and stupid actions. He does notspeak of the defects of others. He pursues virtuous deeds, gentledeeds not causing agitation of mind. He is constantly afraid of sin.He does not hope for enjoyment. He speaks words, tender and proper,full of affection and friendship, which words are suitable to timeand place.He honours virtuous people by thought, word and deed. He looks intoScriptures of spiritual knowledge, fetching them from some where orany one.Next time: The Second StageJai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-----------------------------This question is tricky and I saw that Sadhaks mention 'dosurrender', 'do not judge'. Truly, Yes! But for the mind that issometimes a question for some people. Not every one is like the onesmentioned in the stories and to have such ocassional doubt not atall a detriment to saadhana.Like for any practice the sadhana has its 'ups' and 'downs'. Duringthe 'up' we see the inner quite and peace, which is a indicator weare making a progress. The problem comes when there are 'downs'.By 'downs', I mean that saadhak do not feel the same inner peace(for whatever reasons, which is not the discussion point here!) andso would consider he / she is down the path. What actually ishappening is that sadhak is working on the 'vaasanas' or the effectsof the 'vasanaas'. If sadhak is patient and continue sadhana (be itmeditation, yogasanas, mantra, tantra, bhajan or satsang) withdetermination the saadhak will soon see the 'up' and feel theexperience. The measure is (whether you consciously judge or itunconsciously happens) that in the long run we start realizingquiteness / peace more frequently. Yes, sadhana towards God is thetarget, while the peace / quiteness is the fall out of the same.RegardsVenu Komanduri-----------------------------The easiest and best yardstick to measure one's spiritual progressis just to look back down the line of your life and comparedyourself what you were and what you are, and if you find markeddifference in your attitude positively and spiritual, then you areprogressing. One need not ask anybody, it is all within.Love and Love alone.....--Paritala Gopi Krishna-----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGThe single most measure for self evaluation is :The ability to abide peacefully and joyfully in the present,dealingwith whatever situation Existence places you, without remorse orguilt of the past, and any anxiety for the future ( results) .AUM.narinder bhandari-----------------------------Near & Dear Prepetina G,According to your Query, there is a single and unique yardstick tomeasure not only our spiritual progress but also our routine work,that is all the activities was, is, and will be done by us. That isour "MANA" in the sense HEART.It is my personal request that please listen to PRAVACHAN of MAHARAJJI of the day of April-1991, You will definitely clear your doubts.If there is a single mistake in conveying this then please forgiveme.Jag Mohan-------------------------Shree Hari Ram RamJag Mohanji, please specify exact date and time of pravachan.Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram---------------Spirituality & Progress YardstickGita clearly specifies the attributes of behaviour of a Yogi on thepath to Nirvana (Godhood). One can find out progress by thefollowing measures:How much of time in his waking day and sleep does one remain(i) unperturbed by external events and developments(ii) work, think and act with complete concentration without anydesire to seek pleasure or satisfaction,(iii) does not feel the pressure of self-ego (the idea that I amdoing/ thinking/ eating)(iv) sees every person as the same as no different from himself asmanifestation of God,(v) without anger irrespective of whatever happens(vi) without disappointment irrespective of whatever happens(viii) without pride....If the percentage of time under (i) to (viii) continously increases,there is progress.Basudeb Sen------------------------Dear Sadaks,Judging capacity or rights to judge the progress of anyone or selfsolely in the hands of GOD. Normally one who experienced a little ofBagavan have to go 2/3 births still more. Examples: Sant Namdev,even after Bagavan Paruranga (Sri Krishna) had direct touch withhim, he was born again as Sant Tukaram who flew to Vaikunt. JadaBharat in Sri Bagavath Puran took 2 births and then got liberated.Ramana Rishi said that he crossed few birth to understand that worldis Maya and he remained attached to SAT.There were cases were Bakthas like Vilvamangalam who was regularlyplaying and living with Sri Krishna was deluded by a small mistakeand had to take birth as a cow, then as a snake and then as plantTulasi in Guruvayur. The tulasi leaves were on Ekadasi day wasplucked from that so called Vilvamangal Tulasi tree and garlanded tosri Krishna and there after Vilvamangalam was with Bagavan.A person aiming at medal in a race normally never succeds. But aperson who runs just for race with enthusiasm wins. So if one hasslight desire to measure his yardstick, only falls rather thanraising.There is a beatiful example from stories of Brindavan. A calf usedto looking at Sri Krishna while grassing so pathetically, gotliberated. When the Jeeva of calf leaving the body (Calf body) waswittnessed by a great saint at Brindavan. Saint asked Bagavan SriKrishna, when such a grace is going to come for him. Sri Krishnasaid, "Oh saint, the calf was looking at me with mind set sayingthat it is was expressing it`s total inability even to think of ME(Sri Krishna). So the calf had total surrender and no atom of I-ness. Where as you think you are saint, that which is obstacle foryou".Sadaks, we are desiring for infenity, SAT, unchanging bliss, so ourinput quality can be only measured by Bagavan. Surrender to HIM andprogress. To judge your exam paper you dont do. Somebody does. Thisis for education and earning for survival not for liberation. Thenimagine for liberation-What?Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan-----------------------------Pranam Meeraji,How to create such intense longing for GOD?Varun P. Paprunia-----------------------------Shree HariRam RamSwamiji says that when the longing is so intense for God that oneremembers nothing but God and only God. Besides God, nothing isattractive. Nothing in the world is appealing, absolutely nothingelse - "Ab kuch bhi nahin suhaave, ek tu hi mana bhaave." Only Youand You alone. During the day there is no hunger, nor thirst, atnight there is no desire to sleep, time and time again there isthat one and only one intense longing - "Din nahin bhookh, rainenahin nidraa, chin chin vyaakul hot hiyaa." There is no laughter,there is intense uneasiness and longing - when will I behold Him!!!Meera DasRam Ram-----------------------------From Drops Of Nectar, chapter 27, page 41397. In the beginning, to a sadhak God appears to be far off, thenHe seems closer, then sadhak sees God within his own Self, and laterhe sees nothing, but only God.http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/englishbooks/english%20book%20layout/The%20Drops%20Nector/main.htmlHare KrishnaVarun P. PapruniaSwamiji has said thatA sadhak should judge his spiritual progress only when he is indoubt. Compared to his previous state before becoming a sadhak, hewill definitely notice some difference.If he has no doubt then he should never judge himself, he shouldjust be steadfast in his practice. If he starts judging then thereare some pitfalls:1. Complacency - If he becomes complacent at his present state thenhe will not strive for further perfection. Also the present state ofpeacefulness will not last because attachment of sattvik also leadsto bondage."Sattvagun binds through attachment of peace and knowledge" (Gita14.6)It does not mean that sadhak does not has to respect peace andknowledge of sattvagun. He has to respect that peace and alsoprotect it because that will only lead to emancipation."But the self-controlled sadhak, while enjoying the various sense-objects through his senses, which are disciplined and free fromlikes and dislikes, attains of placidity of mind. With theattainment of such placidity of mind, all his sorrows come to anend; and the intellect of such a tranquil mind soon withdrawingitself from all sides, becomes firmly established in God"(Gita 2.64-65)"The peace of yogarudh (one who is tranquil) sadhak is way toblessedness" (Gita 6.3)He has to respect sattvagun but not get attached to it.2. Ego - There is always a fear of this ego - 'I am a good sadhak'.This will definitely spell doom for him. This is related to firstpoint but I'm specifying it as different point because this is themost dangerous. To make him aware of this mistake, God sendsunfavorable circumstances.3. Mine-ness with inert - When a sadhak judges himself he judgesthem only by looking into mind, intellect, nature etc. The problemhere is that with whom sadhak has to break his affinity he islooking into those things. The Self does not change, it remains asit is.Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGHow much love you have developed for Bhagwaan. How much do youremember Bhagwaan, just like lovers (lover and the loved).IN HINDIBhagwan ke prati kitna pyar hua haiUnki kitni yaad aati hai.Just like premi & premikaThanxRaja Gurdasani---------------------Shree HariRam RamSwamiji says that the less that we are attracted to the world andthe more that our attraction, attachment, devotion to God increases,that much we have progressed spiritually.On having made spiritual progress, there is less attachment(passion, attraction, likes, desires) and aversion (dislikes,hatred, enmity) in worldly relations.There is less elation and dejection in worldly affairs. There isless pleasure or pain from worldly gains and losses.There is a peaceful feeling, ever cheerfulness and contentment.Meera DasRam Ram---------------------Best way to "judge" spiritual progress is in the absence of anyyardsticks to measure the same as well as anything else.Best "yard stick" to measure spiritual progress is the absence ofany need to judge the same as well as anything else.Absence of judgment as well as measurement altogether is TheSpirituality.If at all one insists for one ... The Happiness is the "yard stick"to "measure" as well as the "basis" to "judge" one's spiritualprogress ... because, The Happiness is the one that REQUIRES absenceof both the qualities - judgment and measurement ... as far as onedoes not attempt to use The Happiness as an instrument to judge ormeasure anything as such.Respects.Naga Narayana------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGAs the understanding gets deeper with experience and start gettingnear the true natural state......there is increasing joy .......for no outside reasons........Thismeans good progress.......When this inner happiness is not disturbed at all.....getsstabilized.....That is the state of bliss or moksha.....connection to thesupercomputer of the universe...Self assessment or assessment by others of higher consciousnesslevels may be necessary to know if the direction needscorrection.....But it is all very tricky.Mind plays in many ways and even a single thought could stop theprogress further......Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are theattributes to achieve the ultimate..Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goalhas to be finally left behind...Wonderful way of knowing self.............................Sushil Jain-----------------------------Hari OmYardsticks as sought by you based on Swamiji's discourses and Gitaji:1 The bouts of anger/greed are not now that frequent as they were inthe past.2 They don't come now with that high velocity and ferocity as theyused into the past.3 They don't remain that long as they used to in the past.4 Divine properties as described in the BG 16:1 to 16:3 have startedmanifesting into you. Like fearlessness, clean conscience,austerity, tolerance, truthfulness, easyness, strightforwardness,non violence, giving to other, reading of holy scriptures, nonfickleness, a shame in doing evil , radiance, forgiveness, etcIn fact your spiritual progress can be judged from above yardsticks.Anger reduces, the frequency reduces, it remains for lesser timethan in the past.I may add here that it is not very beneficial for a sadhak to keepobserving as where does he stand in spiritual progress. SwamijiRamsukhdasji Maharaj also stated that one should not worry aboutmeeting or not meeting the above. It is not a matter of worry butsurprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging also gives riseto comparison with another and then arises either pride(superioritycomplex) or frustration (inferiority complex) . Both do not helpsadhak and are avoidable.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-----------------------------Dear Sadak,Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama (desires), Krodh (anger), Lobha(greed) etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi (devotion andworship of God).B.Sathyanarayan----------------------------Dear Sadhkas, NamaskarIt is good question...How does a person judge his progress inspiritual pursuits?I feel, by analysing the existing concepts of spirituality, he canknow how far he is approaching the truth...the facts connected tohis existance...Gee Waman-----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGThe following question was answered on May 14, 2008 in Kansas CityStar. I t answers waht is spirituality, what absence of spiritualitymeans. P hope ypu cam post this as the start of discussion. Thankyou. Arvind KhetiaQ: WHAT DOES THE TERM "SPIRITUALITY" MEAN IN YOUR FAITH?Ans: The universal and inclusive nature of Hinduism is derived fromits emphasis on spirituality. The sages of ancient Indiacontemplated on the nature of consciousness and realized that thereis a divine presence at the core of all existence and within allhuman beings. Thus, behind this material world, at a deep spirituallevel of consciousness, they realized an underlying unity.To realize one's inner divinity, Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad-Gita, "The Supreme Reality is revealed in the consciousness of thosewho have conquered themselves." Thus, one's spiritual quest beginswith cultivating self-control, detachment, truthfulness and non-violence, and culminates in realizing the ultimate Reality withinoneself and in all of the existence.Thus, according to Vedanta (spiritual philosophy of Hinduism),spirituality is not just believing, but becoming. It requires anincreasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within andrecognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all. Then, one cantranscend apparent differences based on race, religion or gender,and transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion,empathy and non-violence.The absence of spirituality creates the delusion of separatenessresulting in a false sense of superiority. Consequently,exploitation, hatred, fear and violence follows. Swami Vivekanandacorrectly observed that, "… the strength of every race lies in itsspirituality, and the death of that race begins the day thatspirituality wanes and materialism gains ground."--------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Spiritual progress is unlike progress we measure in worldly matters.One can measure over time noting the change between two points intime.Conventionally we may say spiritual progress just to encouragesadhakas on their way to liberation. however, time is not ofessence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence.As such the understanding happens in flashes when one is leastexpecting. It's "aha wow.., now I know" moments accompanied by joydue to the absence of "me". Such moments are brief in the starting,but they become more prevalent and asserting down the road.Bottom line is that progress, for the lack of better word, is whenthere is increasing joy without any cause!One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in termsof steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust inGod which is Life!At this point in one's sadhana, only selflessness in karmas,devotion to God(vasudev sarvam), and absence of "me", or I AM THATremains...namaskara............Pratap Bhatt--------------------------------Shree Hari-Dear Prepetina,Be very careful, because of the word judge, because one may start tothink, "Well I meditate twice a day, and practice sacred ritualsevery day, she/he doesn't. I am much further along the path!", youmay start to judge others.Remember the two birds at the fountain.A true story: During my time in Singapore, I used to pass a verysmall Hindu Shrine, and there was this man there busy cleaning andtidying the Shrine and its surrounds on a daily basis. When he wasdone he used to sit in Lotus for hours in the sun, just where thepath to the Shrine met the street pavement, but to one side, so asnot to obstruct, (I presume), his eyes were always open, and themerest hint of a smile on his face.I mentioned this man of so long ago to a group of people we meditatewith, asking what was he doing sitting there for so long, quite a fewfolk agreed with the comment made by one, "He was doing Gods Work",another said, "After all you still remember him", I do indeed, hewas my,'Silent Guru'.B.G. Chapter 9Those who direct their thoughts to Me,Worshiping Me with steadfast mind,For them I secure what they lackAnd preserve that which they possess. (22)The only yardstick I see is that you have started to do that which isdescribed in Gitaji 9:22, as you have turned towards this Satsang, (aspiritual move).My simple humble advice is to get lost unto 'The Beloved', forgetabout trying to measure your spiritual worth.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor).-----------------------------There are no yardsticks as such but with spiritual practices likesewa, sadhna, satsang and meditation if done properly and regularlyone can notice the changes in one's thoughts, action , behaviouretc.. When one connects with one's Self, he or she will realise thatall that we see is maya or an illusion and that the only true pathand the goal for our soul is to become one with the Parmatma or God.After that we are spared from the endless and painful cycle of birthand death.Hari Shanker Deo-------------------------------SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES TO DATE- Spiritual progress is unlike progress in worldly matters- spirituality is not just believing, but becoming- Spirituality is increasing and deepening awareness of the divinepresence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness ofall, thus transcending all differences.- Absence of spirituality creates delusion ofseparateness/superiority- transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion,empathy and non-violence.- Swami Vivekananda "… the strength of every race lies in itsspirituality..."- time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is theessence.- understanding happens in flashes.. It's "aha wow... One cannot saywhen one changed but the Change is certainty in terms ofsteadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God!Life! and only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God (vasudevsarvam), and absence of "me", or I AM THAT remains.- get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure yourspiritual worth.- Bhagwaan (The Beloved) will secure what is lacking and preservethat which you possess- Only one goal - become one with Paramatma for eternal bliss - allelse is maya. there are no yardsticks- Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama, Krodh, Lobha etc. Thisreduction is due to sadana Bakthi.- reduction in frequency, velocity of anger/greed/desires and Theydon't remain that long as they used to in the past. Divineproperties of Gita 16:1-3- Yardstick - how far he is approaching the truth/existence- one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above.Rather experience surprise as to why this trait is not in me !Judging leads to comparison resulting in pride(superiority complex)or frustration (inferiority complex). Both do not help sadhak andare avoidable.- increasing joy for no external reason. state of bliss or moksha- Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are theattributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment,spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind.--------------------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 Shree HariRam RamSadhaks, Let not any reading be casual. Let us use thisopportunity to study the references and make them part of our dailylives. Thank you sadhaks for the extensive references.Gita Talk Moderators,Ram Ram--------------------------A QuestionHow does a person judge his progress in spiritual pursuits? Arethere any yardsticks prescribed in Gita/Ramayana or otherScriptures? How does one know where is he standing at present?Prepetina G-----------------------------NEW POSTING Respected Vyas ji and others, Please allow me to use `I' so that we can communicate. I have not yet reached a stage where I can say that I am out of the world (Nishkam), but gradually I have realized the futility of pursuing the worldly possessions, chasing its ungraspable mirages, indulging in meaningless sensory gratifications and drinking the salty ocean water of fame without quenching my thirst . Though I am in the world, but without any urge to repeat the past `catch and acquire' habits. I have also realized the futility of `holier than thou' or `my shirt is now whiter than yours' approach by putting on the mask of a pseudo `satsangi'. How did I come to this stage? Like bus, train, air tickets, scriptures also serve a practical purpose. After a stage, these are also to be got rid of, but as long as I depend on the society for my bare minimum needs (nor desires), I should continue with my selective scriptures – Gita, Maharamayana (Yoga-vashishtha), Ashtravakra Gita – reading these give me a kind of happiness I cannot describe. After reaching this last step, let me describe my attitudes – I do not like hypocrite persons. I feel happy in the company of honest, simple-of-heart-and-possessions people who have realized the futility of worldly pleasures and are trying to know the real self `Atma Sakshatkar'. How can confused persons remove my or others' confusions? By God's grace, I have come to and gracefully accepted in the company of real spiritual gems of this divine forum. This was from the last step. The initial steps were my deep effortless love for nature and its denizens - birds, butterflies, insects, mountains, rivers, sunshine, moon, stars, rains, trees, jungles, flowers, creatures, music, great poets and writers. Then, there were holy scriptures, their speakers, kirtans, satsangs, bhajans, anecdotes from the lives of great saints, Vivekanand, Swami Ramteerth, Maharishi Raman, J Krishnamurti, Vimla Thakar, and so on and so on. In the mean while, there were love affairs, successful and not so successful, marriage, ups and downs, extra-marital attraction and other charms – whose beginning was smeared with sadness, in the middle was stupid pleasure but gloominess and in the end there was again sadness of frustration and meaninglessness. One `guru' was made who simply forced me to follow some rituals without any spiritual insights. Left for good. And then, the greatest revolution happened, studied literature of Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj and his `darshan' and `satsang' at Rishikesh, I was there when he breathed his last – weather was cloudy with light rains, but there was a rainbow inside me… don't know from where it appeared…His last will, I have read many times and always cry with tears like a child, result is always ever new `bliss'. In fact, this blob of proteins does not want to know, but just to be, to be, to be… And yet, I love to be in the company of true sadhaks like you all and like a few others. So that the mirages of the sensory pleasures may not draw me astray, hence my request to all sadhaks/siddhs on this list to kindly let me be with you, I need your blessings. MO TE ADHIK SANT KARI LEKHA (Ram in Manas). Compassionate Lord Krishna, when the ripe time will come, will merge me with His `Is-ness' – there is nothing to be done, just I have to stand in the sunshine of His saints. Kind regards, Suresh C. Sharma ---------------------------- Hari OmTHE SIXTH STAGEGradually, he goes over to the different sixth stage having the name "turya" (or the Fourth State of Consciousness) , where he is neither non-existence nor one having a real nature; neither ' I ' nor even non ego ! He remains merely with the thinking process worn away, FREED FROM DUALITY AND UNITY, without the knot of ignorance in the heart, with his doubts abated, liberated while living and having clear perception. Though not liberated from existence, he is liberated, REMAINING LIKE A LAMP IN PICTURE ( which does not shine, though not consumed) . He is empty within and empty without, like an empty pot in space. He is full within and full without like a water-filled pot within the ocean. He is quite possessed of something; or he is not anything.THE SEVENTH STAGEThat yogin, having remained in the sixth stage, can attain the seventh stage- liberation without a body. That stage which is inaccessible to words and is tranquil, is the utmost limit in the territories of worldly existence. Though it cannot be indicated always, it is taught somehow.Says Sage Vashishtha-Rama ! This is called liberation. This is declared as Brahman. This is described as Nirvana ( or final emancipation from matter and absorption in the Supreme Spirit) , whose form is fuller than the full.The one liberated without a body does not rise; nor does he set (vanish). He is not extinguished. He is neither being nor non-being. He is not far off. He is neither ' I ' nor not ' I '. He is not another !!Dear Sadhaks ! I narrated this straight from Yoga Vashishtha ( Courtesy Samata Books, Chennai, Book: The Vision and the way of Vasistha ) for common cause.It should be heartening to note that ultimately it is NON DUALITY, INDIFFERENCE FROM WORLD ( Equanimity ) that only is to be accomplished. To be conquered: Raag and Dvesha- Likings and Dislikings- DESIRES ! If we are determined, the delay can not be there ! The world is constantly leaving you. Leave it before it leaves you! Leave the importance for it from within! Leave mine-ness with it. You are through !Pranaams to all Divine Sadhaks !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ---------------------------- -Shree Hari-Dear Anirudh,I have been working on your question directed at me, finally I decided to juststart typing.Question:'which lessons you learnt the hard way? To> reach such clarity levels, indeed, Paramatma's grace was required. But> whataccording to you helped you most'I believe the biggest lesson I learned, was not realizing the hand of theBeloved was at work in my pain.People of India are very lucky because the Sanatana Dharma is all around, peoplethat come to this Satsang are truly blessed. In spiritual crises the west can bea lonely minefield.Many books came into my hands, retrospective to what I had gone through.Looking back I don't believe I could have avoided the 'Dark Night', my senseswere confounded, my intellect was being smashed up, i.e. my ability to reasonspiritual matters kept falling apart.No wonder that Sri Lankan freind said to me, "Mike you should read, the BhagavadGita", "The what? Said I". See my point, I am sure Gr.. was thinking of theearly chapters.My situation, where I was at, it had to be that way, The medicine that firstseems like poison, but is nectar to the soul, I am really glad it happened. Mystony heart was smashed, it took a lot of breaking, it is like an explosion oflove within.What helped me the most? "God help me God help me I cant help me!", Tyaga, mysurrender to GOD. You see I was too full of arrogance and pride, to not realizeI was defeated by my own will.This surrender is unconditional, one has surrendered to GODS will, thatsurrender is when you start to realize GODS grace, as you indicated.I think that if a person is in Divine company and opens his/her heart, in truelove for Bhagwan, letting go of pride, then why can't that person cross theocean with joy and happiness?The Gitaji is revealing to me the bigger picture, this medicine is sweet to thetaste, and sweet to the soul.This response is more than I usually write, I sincerely hope it has been ofvalue.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor). ----------------------------- Jai HanumanWhile Holy Scriptures are full of beautiful verses describing conduct of Liberated Sadhaks, but I give hereunder, some really practical ones:He remains with an unattached mind towards a person who is intent on relationship. He has the behaviour of a devotee towards a devotee and is like a rogue towards a rogue.He is a child among children, an old man among the aged, one having courage among the courageous, a youth among those having youthful behaviour and is distressed along with the miserable !He has no purpose served by good acts, enjoyments, religious rites, misdeeds, renunciation of enjoyments or kinsmen. He takes or leaves everything in everyway and behaves like a child without anything to be chosen.Though engaging himself in actions by virtue of the regular course or order of place, time and activity, he is not seized even a little by the pleasure and pain arising from actions. He is neither mad nor having an afflicted mind; neither dejected nor elevated, neither sorrowful nor possessed of joy.The Wise one enjoys the entire collection of objects of enjoyment obtained without effort, sportively, with an unattached mind, like the eye experiencing light. He is liberated who engages himself in actions with his desires given up, thinking thus : " I perform ( or I am engaged in) this universal movement. "Dear Sadhaks ! Let us continue our journey and come out of the snare of the world like a lion out of a cage !!Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala ----------- PRIOR POSTINGHari OmYes Manjulaji ! World indeed does start looking like a dream. See how divinely your message matches with Holy Scriptures ! My last posting ended with the same- taken always AS IT IS from Yoga Vaashishtha. Both messages got simultaneously posted. One from Scriptures, one from a Sadhak of Divine path. Such are holy rays of the divine days , not coincidences. They are boosters ! Ways are different, but in the end all meet. Indeed a lot of things burn in the fire of knowledge - even the false householder, ego, burns what to say of the house. Ego takes the mighty hits, crumbles and divine rays enter from the cracks into the deep within. Welcome Krishna Narinedathji. A beautiful message indeed for all of us! What to say of Miraji Dass ! My Pranaams for being on dot as always. Narinder Bhandariji ! Thanks to Saints of Sanatan Dharma- here to Sage Vaashishtha. Vasudeva Sarvam. Yes Mahalaxmiji. Till we disrespect any body, we have not advanced in reality towards BG 7:19 ! No one is bad. Based on our bhavas only the other appears to us. God is doing Lila of Kaliyuga. One simply can not enter Vasudeva Sarvam till he sees Him Only in evil, in disrespect, in sorrow, in the unpleasant, and in rajasic, sattwik and tamasic modes too, always doing Lila according to Time..That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for you Dear Sadhaks ! (Refer latest article by Swamiji in Kalyaan). It is not that only tamasic and rajasic modes prevail in us. Without your being in sattwik mode such a beautiful message can not be shared by you so gracefully to all of us. Thanks.THE FIFTH STAGEThe one who has gone to the fifth stage lives only with Pure Being as remainder.Having arrived at the fifth stage which has the name "the place of profound repose", the person, with all his distinguishing parts or features abated, LIVES IN MERE NON DUALITY. Risen with the appearance of duality vanished, he is the one who has awakened within. (Refer also BG 7:28/29- "dvandamoha nirmukta" - free from duality - from pair of opposites. Sadhaks may set these verses as goal. Brother Mike also referred this recently in one of his messages- these verses are creams of Holy Gita- ends of express highways leading to Him )The one who has gone to the fifth stage exists only in uninterrupted deep sleep ( rather profound repose) , remaining with inwardness of consciousness, though WHOLLY ENGAGED IN EXTERNAL ACTIONS. The one without desires, doing repeated practice in this stage, ( Jap/Keertan/ Meditation/ Worship/Penances/duty/service/yajna/ swadharma/surrender/ austerity - Hey Naath main apko bhoolu nahin- O God let me not forget you ) , is seen as if asleep ALWAYS due to much tranquility. Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B --- Jai Sita Ram The insights provided by Sadhika Manjula Patel for sadhaks were soul touching. In fact we learn more by direct personal experiences. Such selfless expressions will make this Satsanga more and more divine. I also liked Mike Keenor's assurance to Prepetina to be highly encouraging. Sir, can one cross this ocean with happiness and laughter? How to do that, Sir ? What are the precise lessons which you would like to share with us, which lessons you learnt the hard way? To reach such clarity levels, indeed, Paramatma's grace was required. But what according to you helped you most, other than that? You see, Mike Sir, you turned to Geetaji under a genuine need of your soul. When a person turns to anything with a purpose, he has the advantage of knowing better than others. Please enlighten us as to how we should conduct to be on the same level of clarity, perception, and devotion. Do you think Sir that humans are mere puppets in the hands of Divine or they are independent till they say - I am tired now? With respects Anirudh Joshi ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTINGSwamiji says - when a sadhak comes to the understanding that he wants thathappiness, that joy and bliss that has no shortage or limitation, and that whichnever ends."Yam labdhvaa chaaparam laabham manyate naadhikam tatah; yaasminnisthato nadukhen gurnaapi vichaalyate tam vidhyaadukhsam yog viyogam yogasanjitam." (Gita6:22-23)"Having gained that state, he does not reckon any other gain greater than that,and wherein established, he is not shaken even by the greatest affliction."This separation from the assumed union with world - prakriti(i.e. becomingNirmamoha and Nirahankaar) and the realization that something like this is notpossible without the grace of The Divine, and that he is only an instrument inthe hands of The Divine - is a yardstick of spiritual progress.Bhagwaan asked Arjuna, if he had understood the Gita ? and Arjuna replied,"Nashto Moha, Smriti Labdhvaa, Tat Prasaadaa" All attachments are wiped out, andthe Truth is now recollected, only by Your grace. "Karishye vachanam tavah", Iwill follow Your command, Your words.Meera DasRam Ram----------------Hari OmI always know Brother Mike speaks from his soul. Hence my invitation must havemade many sadhaks richer. Gem in his own right, is this great Child of Universe! Why not each of the really distinguished battery of sadhaks should sharehis/her experience ? O God ! Do not we have Sadhaks drawn from varied castes/creeds/cultures/countries/civilisations/characters/colours ?? There lies thebeauty, there lies the treasure for all to share. Mira Dassji, Rajaji, Pratapji,Shrikantji Joshi, Varunji, Shashikalaji, Manjulaji Patel, Naga Narainji, S SBhattji, Sadhanaji Karigar, Madanji Kaura, Sarvottamji, B Sathyanarainji,Ashokji Goenka , AH Dalmiaji, KG Gopalji, Mahalaxmiji Dasi, Rajendra Bohraji,Respected Rameshji, Sophiaji, Suresh Sharmaji, Mrs G K Balaji, NarinderBhandariji, Catherine Anderson, Nishaji, Adrien Meyers, Hanna Sandal, Ben,Shivji, - dozens and dozens and dozens others must be having, like Brother MikeKeenor , to narrate their paths, their personal views, their ownsentiments/bhavas, leading them to HIM !!! Why not share them ? (Promise! I willshare mine. Satsanga must reach divine heights. It shall !! I knew Brother Mikewould respond instantly). Come On, Divine Brothers and Divine Sisters ! Even ifsorrows are at centre, what is shame in stating that ? DUKHALAYAM ASHASHWATHAM!! There lies the crux ! This is Divinity !!THIRD STAGE ... To be ContdJai Shree KrishnaVyas N B----------------------thank you Vyas jee.................thank you dear sadhaks.................what a divine feast we have in this sharing ...........the 'Three Stages ' mentioned by Vyas jee ................. are so delicious !Iam looking forward to the Fourth dish .......only one thing comes to the Mind, however,and that is ............... the wordsare only bridges to lead us to the other shore, the No-Mind. they are only 'indicators': the travelling is our own. Only when the other shore is reached,the words truly reveal to us the intelligence they contain !Peacefulness andBliss follows .............. Bliss that embraces within itself all grief, allsorrow, all pain !and narinder becomes aware of yet another paradox............... even thetravelling is Grace, His Gift : the whole of the sadhna is a journey in theresolution of this paradox for oneself ............may the Buddhas of all ages bless us and come to our aid ............aum,Narinder Bhandari .........-----------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadaks,Yardstick answer is: While just hearing Bagwan name the hair should stand, tearsshould come, body will feel ecstasy. Ref: Brindarinya Upanashid. Even Bagavansays similar words in Geetha at One instanceThis just like on hearing your most loved one` s name who is far away. Dont youfeel heart felt joy. So when you are close to Bagavan alone you experiencebliss.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan------------------------------Hari OmIndeed Sadhaks should attain momentum, as suggested by DivineModerators of this GT Group. The third of the total 7 stages mustencourage many to pursue the divine path :THE THIRD STAGEHaving applied his mind steadily to the meaning (bhavas) of thewords of Scriptures properly, he wears out his extended life seatedon a couch of stone, with his rests in the hermitages of asceticsand with his participation in courses of narration concerning theSupreme Spirit, which blame worldly life and which are equally thesteps in producing indifference to the world.INDIFFERENCE TO THE WORLD !!Ordinary Non attachment"Everything brought into existence by previous actions (pleasure orpain), is only dependent on God. What is my doership in the matter?The enjoyments of objects of pleasure are intense diseases. Richesare great misfortunes. Associations are only for separation.Anxieties are diseases of mind. Time is engaged in swallowing up allbeings continuously"The annihilation ( "Fana" in Brother Mike's words ! ) of mentalinclinations inwardly in the above manner, due to INDIFFERENCE ofone with a mind fastened to the meanings of the sentences ofScriptures , is that ORDINARY NON-ATTACHMENT !!Dear Sadhaks ! Keep deliberating as to where each of us is placedand why? What prevents us from moving forward ? Feel free ! Feelenthusiastic ! Throw ego into the dust bin while expressing ! Thebest is on the way to touch your soul !Next : The best non- attachment: The Fourth StageJai Shree KrishnaVyas N B----------------------------"If each year, the number of things or events, which can arouse your anger orlust grows smaller, you are making progress; if it remains the same, you arestagnating; if it increases, your spiritual development is regressing." by:Paramacharya, Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham, Kanchi.Paritala Gopi Krishna------------------------------Shree Hari-Brother Vyas,Reflecting on your invitation to share personal experiences, on the'second stage', I printed your list so can I think about it as Itype.Now during my time of change I found much support, in a sense Ireally did not have to look too hard it was always there, this Ibelieve to be universal to all seekers, regardless of creed.(This isin agreement with Gitaji).For many years,(decades), I scrutinized scripture, (Christian),dissected customs, festivals holy days. I got hold of the earliestGreek/English text, I felt I was being assaulted by waves of blinddogma, blind worship. I was horrified with what mother church haddone through history, to innocent cultures and people, and I feltsickened to my soul. You see dear Sadhaks, I remained spiritualthrough all this, never rejecting GOD. But I felt very, very, alone,like I was in a spiritual wilderness.In this dark time, I then suffered from agonizing pain that lastedfor about a year, made me a virtual cripple.Oddly enough I was always drawn towards meditation, for so long Ican't remember.My pride and ego took a hammering, through the pain, through mybewilderment, I realize now,(looking back), I was heading into whatin the West is known as the 'Dark Night of the Soul', very few willtalk about it,(I expect the Indian traditions have their own namefor it, probably something to do with Shakti).Things got far worse, but I will not talk about it.But you see it is in that 'Dark Place', that you see the Rising Sun,the Light of Beloved.You NEVER come out of this place the way you go in, this Dark placeis full of Grace you see.There is so much more, but suffice to say the points Brother Vyasmade, in general, are a natural outcome of this process.Prepetinaji don't worry that was my soul chosen way. Yours could beall laughter and light.All Sadhaks have their story, I expect you have yours Brother Vyas.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor)------------------------------Hari OmI humbly suggest the following as good indicators of SpiritualProgress:- an incredible sense of calm, serenity, and absolute lack ofconcern or worry about anything. Lack of concern does not mean youare careless and reckless and ignore danger. And, those who are well-advanced in Spirituality do not have to make an attempt to be calmor still, even in the face of disastrous events.- a great yearning for anything that represents or is connected withBhagavan, e.g. devotional music, scriptures, literature, company ofsadhaks, and discussions on Spiritual matters.- no complaints, no shouting, no loud words, almost totallyoblivious of the world around you, perfectly satisfied with whatevermaterial possessions you have, e.g. clothes, car, home, food,furniture etc.- you seem to be surrounded by a aura of divinity and spirituality (you are not!Lose the false ego): total strangers smile as they approach you,become friendly and relaxed in your presence, respect and evenaccept your views, and they have an intense desire to associate withyou.- most of all, you genuinely believe there is a spark of divinity inevery human being andyou want to devote every moment of your life to serve others.Krishna S. Narinedath------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGHari OmWe discussed conduct of a Sadhak in the first stage. I hope amajority of sadhaks of this Forum might have found themselvescrossing that stage ! In second stage, Sadhak starts looking atScriptures deeply in order to determine his conduct. Brother Mike !Any personal experiences to share especially re the second stage?THE SECOND STAGE:He resorts to pre-eminent scholars, well known by their foremostexposition of Veds-s , texts of ethical and religious codes,virtuous conduct, concentration, meditation and rituals.Familiar with the division or arrangement of words and theirmeanings, he knows the settled rule relating to what ought to bedone and what ought not to be done, as a householder knows his house.He gets rid of excessive pride, self conceit, jeolousy, delusion andgreed, even dwelling outwardly a little in his worldly life,necessitated by circumstances, as a snake gets rid of its skin.One whose intellect is in this state, duly learns completely , alongwith the esoteric teachings, from following or devotion toScriptures , the spiritual preceptor and wise (vituous ) persons !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------Dear SadhakEvery body's progress towards spiritual development can be flt bythe person himself.When Mirabai was singing the song of Lord Krishnathen sometime she was crying and many time she was inestacy.Somiliarly was the case of Sri Chaitainya Maihaprabhu whowas acting like MirabaiWhen we forget things in the service of God then we are nearer toGod Sri Narsinh Mehta was reciting bhajan he forgot his own work.Thesame was the case of Gopis who were reciting the name of Gopalinstead f milk or dahi which they have to sell.We have examin any such thing happening to us We achieve intutivepower.We get the power to offer prayers for others These are thesing of spiritual developent These are my experiences at the age ofeighty five ll my experiences are noted in my book on "Prayers ofall Religions of the world." May God Bless all Sadhaks who readingthese Gita talks. Gita must be read alway only one chapter then seethe result Sing Rama Dhuna at leaat for ten minutes and observe itsresult. There are many things to learn from saints like person.Gitatalk can help us a lotTruly yoursShankerprasad S Bhatt-----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGShree Hari|| Ram Ram ||Dear Sadhak,Many excellent responses have already been posted on this importantquestion. To summarize again, few simple marks are: Feeling at peacewith oneself, not waiting for a future happening to feel happy,always in a state of equanimity in favorable and unfavorablecircumstances or conditions, dispassion from the world, not thinkingor doing bad to anyone. The other people who come in contact withsuch a sadhka would observe these traits in Sadhka, in terms of goodbehavior and vibrations of peace etc.As has been pointed by Swamiji Maharaj - what is really the need toknow the marks for spiritual progress, because the only thing thisknowledge can do for one is to boost the ego, one feels proud andtends to compare himself or herself with others who may not be atpar with him or her. Being concerned about progress also can proveto be a distracter from the Sadhana which suggests the Sadhka hasnot set his goal (union with God), firmly as of yet.The good virtues coming in the sadhaka are not a result of his orher own effort but they are bestowed upon by God's grace only, thatis why these virtues are called Divine treasure (Devic Sampati), forexample:Arjuna was not aware of the Divine virtues in Him, Lord Krishna saysto Arjuna - "Grieve not, thou are born with divine virtues" (Gita:16-5) and "To you who does not cavil" (Gita: 9-1) and Arjuna saystoo - "My delusion is destroyed, I have gained my memory throughyour Grace" (Gita:18-73). In Ramayana too, Hanumanji is not aware ofhis strength till roused by Jamavan before crossing over to Lanka.When Lord praises him about his bravery, setting a fire to Lankaetc. he says he is only a monkey who only knows how to jump from onebranch of the tree to the other, all was possible due to His graceonly.The subject question was also about the references in Gita andRamayana. Depending on mental make-up and choice, each individualmay follow one of the four Yogas described in Gita. Many of thetraits for each discipline are elaborated through out the Gita, atcertain places these traits come as clusters of gems. The virtuesmostly seem to be for the Sidhas (perfected souls) only but can betaken as a goal to attain for the Sadhkas.Few of the Verses are:KARMA YOGA (Discipline of Action) -Chapter II: 38, 47-50, 55-72Chapter III:19-20, 30, 34, 36-37Chapter IV: 20-23, 41-42Chapter V:. 11-12Chapter XVIII: 6, 9, 23, 26JNANA YOGA (Discipline of Knowledge) -Chapter IV: 9-10 34, 36, 39Chapter V: .. 7-9, 16-28Chapter VI: 6-29Chapter VII: 4-5, 8-12Chapter X: 3-5Chapter XIII: 7-11Chapter XIV: 14/21-26Chapter XV: 7Chapter XVIII: 20, 51-53BHAKTI YOGA (Discipline of Devotion) -Chapter V: 10Chapter VI: 30-31Chapter VII: 19Chapter VIII:14Chapter IX: 14, 22, 27-28, 30-31, 34Chapter X: 8-10Chapter XI: 55Chapter XII: 13-20Chapter XV: 5Chapter XVI: 1-3Chapter XVIII: 55, 65-66DHAYANA YOGA (Discipline of Self Control) -Chapter VI: 14-18, 20-25Chapter VIII: 8-13In Tulsidas ji's Ram-charit-manas, there are many places, the Divinetraits are described as the virtues of saints. For example:In Aryana Kandha, Lord Rama describes the navda Bhakti (nine-folddevotion) to Shabri (35-4 through 36/1-5), starting with:navadha bhakti kahau tohi pahi, savadhana sunu dharau mana mahi"Listen O good lady, to My words I recognize no other kinship exceptthat of Devotion"In Aryana Kandha again: Lord describes these virtues to Narada:samtanha ke lacchana raguubira, kahahu natha bhava bhamjanabhira ... (45/3-5)sunu muni samtanha ke guna kahau, jinha te mat unha ke basa rahausata bikara jita anagha akama, acala aklimcana suci sukhadhamaamitabodha aniha mitbhogi, satyasara kabi kobida jogisavadhana manada madhina, dhira dharma gati param prainagunagar samsara dukha rahita bigata samdeha," (Doha #46)taji mama carana saroja priya tinha kahudeha na gehaMeaning:"O Rama, who are well versed in sacred lore: tell me, my LordRaghuvira (Hero of Raghu's lineage), the distinguished marks ofsaints, O dispeller of fear of transmigration. I tell you, dearsage, the qualities of saints, by virtue of which they hold Me insubjection. They are masters of six passions (lust, anger, greed,infatuation, pride and jealousy), sinless, disinterested , firm,possessing nothing, pure (both within and without), full of bliss,of boundless wisdom, desire-less, moderate in diet, truthful,inspired, learned and united with God, circumspect, bestowing honoron others, free from pride, strong-minded and highly conversant withthe coursed of Dharma (righteousness)."They are abodes of virtue, above the sorrows of the world and freefrom doubt. Nthing besides My lotus feet is dear to them, not eventheir body nor their home.â€In Uttara Kandha, Lord Rama describes the divine virtues again atthe request of Bharata:suna cahau prabhu inha kar lacchana, krpasimdhu guna gyanabicaccahana ... (37-2)"The gory of the saints, O Lord of the Raghus, has been sung invarious ways by the Vedas and Puranas. You too have exalted them byyour own graceful mouth and my Lord bears great affection forthem." ... continued to Doha #38.In Uttara Kandha, Kaka Bhusandi is describing virtues of saints whenrequested by Garuda:para upkar bacana mana kaya, samta sahaja subhau khagrayasamata sahani dukha parahit lagi, paradukha hetu asamta abhagibrurja taru sama samta hkrpala, parahita niti saha bipati bisala ..(121/ 7-8)There is no blessing to equal to the communion with the God. To becharitable to others in thought and word, O king of birds, is theinnate disposition of saints. The god endure pain in the interest ofothers, but evil wretches do so to give others pain. Tendenciessaints like the birch tree, submit to the direst distress (evenallow their bark to be torn off) for the good of their neighbors.|| Ram Ram ||Humble pranam,Madan Kaura-----------------------------Hari OmFor the benefit of all the sadhaks, I am pleased to present anarticle from one of the most respected Scriptures of Sanatan Dharmawhich charts out progression in a sadhak's life. I hope Sadhaks willfind themselves in the narration.I will appreciate views of sadhaks/ their personal experiences onthe below.THE FIRST STAGE:At the end of many births , a man becomes discriminating. Hereflects THUS: "Alas ! The state of worldly life is worthless.Enough of this for me. ""How do I cross the ocean of worldly existence becoming onepossessed of freedom from passion?" When a person with a virtuousmind becomes intent on reflection in this manner, he attains toindifference towards worldly pleasures in his inner thoughts dayafter day. He undertakes and rejoices in activities of a loftynature every day.He always hesitates in doing vulgar and stupid actions. He does notspeak of the defects of others. He pursues virtuous deeds, gentledeeds not causing agitation of mind. He is constantly afraid of sin.He does not hope for enjoyment. He speaks words, tender and proper,full of affection and friendship, which words are suitable to timeand place.He honours virtuous people by thought, word and deed. He looks intoScriptures of spiritual knowledge, fetching them from some where orany one.Next time: The Second StageJai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-----------------------------This question is tricky and I saw that Sadhaks mention 'dosurrender', 'do not judge'. Truly, Yes! But for the mind that issometimes a question for some people. Not every one is like the onesmentioned in the stories and to have such ocassional doubt not atall a detriment to saadhana.Like for any practice the sadhana has its 'ups' and 'downs'. Duringthe 'up' we see the inner quite and peace, which is a indicator weare making a progress. The problem comes when there are 'downs'.By 'downs', I mean that saadhak do not feel the same inner peace(for whatever reasons, which is not the discussion point here!) andso would consider he / she is down the path. What actually ishappening is that sadhak is working on the 'vaasanas' or the effectsof the 'vasanaas'. If sadhak is patient and continue sadhana (be itmeditation, yogasanas, mantra, tantra, bhajan or satsang) withdetermination the saadhak will soon see the 'up' and feel theexperience. The measure is (whether you consciously judge or itunconsciously happens) that in the long run we start realizingquiteness / peace more frequently. Yes, sadhana towards God is thetarget, while the peace / quiteness is the fall out of the same.RegardsVenu Komanduri-----------------------------The easiest and best yardstick to measure one's spiritual progressis just to look back down the line of your life and comparedyourself what you were and what you are, and if you find markeddifference in your attitude positively and spiritual, then you areprogressing. One need not ask anybody, it is all within.Love and Love alone.....--Paritala Gopi Krishna-----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGThe single most measure for self evaluation is :The ability to abide peacefully and joyfully in the present,dealingwith whatever situation Existence places you, without remorse orguilt of the past, and any anxiety for the future ( results) .AUM.narinder bhandari-----------------------------Near & Dear Prepetina G,According to your Query, there is a single and unique yardstick tomeasure not only our spiritual progress but also our routine work,that is all the activities was, is, and will be done by us. That isour "MANA" in the sense HEART.It is my personal request that please listen to PRAVACHAN of MAHARAJJI of the day of April-1991, You will definitely clear your doubts.If there is a single mistake in conveying this then please forgiveme.Jag Mohan-------------------------Shree Hari Ram RamJag Mohanji, please specify exact date and time of pravachan.Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram---------------Spirituality & Progress YardstickGita clearly specifies the attributes of behaviour of a Yogi on thepath to Nirvana (Godhood). One can find out progress by thefollowing measures:How much of time in his waking day and sleep does one remain(i) unperturbed by external events and developments(ii) work, think and act with complete concentration without anydesire to seek pleasure or satisfaction,(iii) does not feel the pressure of self-ego (the idea that I amdoing/ thinking/ eating)(iv) sees every person as the same as no different from himself asmanifestation of God,(v) without anger irrespective of whatever happens(vi) without disappointment irrespective of whatever happens(viii) without pride....If the percentage of time under (i) to (viii) continously increases,there is progress.Basudeb Sen------------------------Dear Sadaks,Judging capacity or rights to judge the progress of anyone or selfsolely in the hands of GOD. Normally one who experienced a little ofBagavan have to go 2/3 births still more. Examples: Sant Namdev,even after Bagavan Paruranga (Sri Krishna) had direct touch withhim, he was born again as Sant Tukaram who flew to Vaikunt. JadaBharat in Sri Bagavath Puran took 2 births and then got liberated.Ramana Rishi said that he crossed few birth to understand that worldis Maya and he remained attached to SAT.There were cases were Bakthas like Vilvamangalam who was regularlyplaying and living with Sri Krishna was deluded by a small mistakeand had to take birth as a cow, then as a snake and then as plantTulasi in Guruvayur. The tulasi leaves were on Ekadasi day wasplucked from that so called Vilvamangal Tulasi tree and garlanded tosri Krishna and there after Vilvamangalam was with Bagavan.A person aiming at medal in a race normally never succeds. But aperson who runs just for race with enthusiasm wins. So if one hasslight desire to measure his yardstick, only falls rather thanraising.There is a beatiful example from stories of Brindavan. A calf usedto looking at Sri Krishna while grassing so pathetically, gotliberated. When the Jeeva of calf leaving the body (Calf body) waswittnessed by a great saint at Brindavan. Saint asked Bagavan SriKrishna, when such a grace is going to come for him. Sri Krishnasaid, "Oh saint, the calf was looking at me with mind set sayingthat it is was expressing it`s total inability even to think of ME(Sri Krishna). So the calf had total surrender and no atom of I-ness. Where as you think you are saint, that which is obstacle foryou".Sadaks, we are desiring for infenity, SAT, unchanging bliss, so ourinput quality can be only measured by Bagavan. Surrender to HIM andprogress. To judge your exam paper you dont do. Somebody does. Thisis for education and earning for survival not for liberation. Thenimagine for liberation-What?Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan-----------------------------Pranam Meeraji,How to create such intense longing for GOD?Varun P. Paprunia-----------------------------Shree HariRam RamSwamiji says that when the longing is so intense for God that oneremembers nothing but God and only God. Besides God, nothing isattractive. Nothing in the world is appealing, absolutely nothingelse - "Ab kuch bhi nahin suhaave, ek tu hi mana bhaave." Only Youand You alone. During the day there is no hunger, nor thirst, atnight there is no desire to sleep, time and time again there isthat one and only one intense longing - "Din nahin bhookh, rainenahin nidraa, chin chin vyaakul hot hiyaa." There is no laughter,there is intense uneasiness and longing - when will I behold Him!!!Meera DasRam Ram-----------------------------From Drops Of Nectar, chapter 27, page 41397. In the beginning, to a sadhak God appears to be far off, thenHe seems closer, then sadhak sees God within his own Self, and laterhe sees nothing, but only God.http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/englishbooks/english%20book%20layout/The%20Drops%20Nector/main.htmlHare KrishnaVarun P. PapruniaSwamiji has said thatA sadhak should judge his spiritual progress only when he is indoubt. Compared to his previous state before becoming a sadhak, hewill definitely notice some difference.If he has no doubt then he should never judge himself, he shouldjust be steadfast in his practice. If he starts judging then thereare some pitfalls:1. Complacency - If he becomes complacent at his present state thenhe will not strive for further perfection. Also the present state ofpeacefulness will not last because attachment of sattvik also leadsto bondage."Sattvagun binds through attachment of peace and knowledge" (Gita14.6)It does not mean that sadhak does not has to respect peace andknowledge of sattvagun. He has to respect that peace and alsoprotect it because that will only lead to emancipation."But the self-controlled sadhak, while enjoying the various sense-objects through his senses, which are disciplined and free fromlikes and dislikes, attains of placidity of mind. With theattainment of such placidity of mind, all his sorrows come to anend; and the intellect of such a tranquil mind soon withdrawingitself from all sides, becomes firmly established in God"(Gita 2.64-65)"The peace of yogarudh (one who is tranquil) sadhak is way toblessedness" (Gita 6.3)He has to respect sattvagun but not get attached to it.2. Ego - There is always a fear of this ego - 'I am a good sadhak'.This will definitely spell doom for him. This is related to firstpoint but I'm specifying it as different point because this is themost dangerous. To make him aware of this mistake, God sendsunfavorable circumstances.3. Mine-ness with inert - When a sadhak judges himself he judgesthem only by looking into mind, intellect, nature etc. The problemhere is that with whom sadhak has to break his affinity he islooking into those things. The Self does not change, it remains asit is.Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGHow much love you have developed for Bhagwaan. How much do youremember Bhagwaan, just like lovers (lover and the loved).IN HINDIBhagwan ke prati kitna pyar hua haiUnki kitni yaad aati hai.Just like premi & premikaThanxRaja Gurdasani---------------------Shree HariRam RamSwamiji says that the less that we are attracted to the world andthe more that our attraction, attachment, devotion to God increases,that much we have progressed spiritually.On having made spiritual progress, there is less attachment(passion, attraction, likes, desires) and aversion (dislikes,hatred, enmity) in worldly relations.There is less elation and dejection in worldly affairs. There isless pleasure or pain from worldly gains and losses.There is a peaceful feeling, ever cheerfulness and contentment.Meera DasRam Ram---------------------Best way to "judge" spiritual progress is in the absence of anyyardsticks to measure the same as well as anything else.Best "yard stick" to measure spiritual progress is the absence ofany need to judge the same as well as anything else.Absence of judgment as well as measurement altogether is TheSpirituality.If at all one insists for one ... The Happiness is the "yard stick"to "measure" as well as the "basis" to "judge" one's spiritualprogress ... because, The Happiness is the one that REQUIRES absenceof both the qualities - judgment and measurement ... as far as onedoes not attempt to use The Happiness as an instrument to judge ormeasure anything as such.Respects.Naga Narayana------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGAs the understanding gets deeper with experience and start gettingnear the true natural state......there is increasing joy .......for no outside reasons........Thismeans good progress.......When this inner happiness is not disturbed at all.....getsstabilized.....That is the state of bliss or moksha.....connection to thesupercomputer of the universe...Self assessment or assessment by others of higher consciousnesslevels may be necessary to know if the direction needscorrection.....But it is all very tricky.Mind plays in many ways and even a single thought could stop theprogress further......Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are theattributes to achieve the ultimate..Even the thought of assessment, spiritual growth, the ultimate goalhas to be finally left behind...Wonderful way of knowing self.............................Sushil Jain-----------------------------Hari OmYardsticks as sought by you based on Swamiji's discourses and Gitaji:1 The bouts of anger/greed are not now that frequent as they were inthe past.2 They don't come now with that high velocity and ferocity as theyused into the past.3 They don't remain that long as they used to in the past.4 Divine properties as described in the BG 16:1 to 16:3 have startedmanifesting into you. Like fearlessness, clean conscience,austerity, tolerance, truthfulness, easyness, strightforwardness,non violence, giving to other, reading of holy scriptures, nonfickleness, a shame in doing evil , radiance, forgiveness, etcIn fact your spiritual progress can be judged from above yardsticks.Anger reduces, the frequency reduces, it remains for lesser timethan in the past.I may add here that it is not very beneficial for a sadhak to keepobserving as where does he stand in spiritual progress. SwamijiRamsukhdasji Maharaj also stated that one should not worry aboutmeeting or not meeting the above. It is not a matter of worry butsurprise as to why this trait is not in me ! Judging also gives riseto comparison with another and then arises either pride(superioritycomplex) or frustration (inferiority complex) . Both do not helpsadhak and are avoidable.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-----------------------------Dear Sadak,Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama (desires), Krodh (anger), Lobha(greed) etc. This reduction is due to sadana Bakthi (devotion andworship of God).B.Sathyanarayan----------------------------Dear Sadhkas, NamaskarIt is good question...How does a person judge his progress inspiritual pursuits?I feel, by analysing the existing concepts of spirituality, he canknow how far he is approaching the truth...the facts connected tohis existance...Gee Waman-----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGThe following question was answered on May 14, 2008 in Kansas CityStar. I t answers waht is spirituality, what absence of spiritualitymeans. P hope ypu cam post this as the start of discussion. Thankyou. Arvind KhetiaQ: WHAT DOES THE TERM "SPIRITUALITY" MEAN IN YOUR FAITH?Ans: The universal and inclusive nature of Hinduism is derived fromits emphasis on spirituality. The sages of ancient Indiacontemplated on the nature of consciousness and realized that thereis a divine presence at the core of all existence and within allhuman beings. Thus, behind this material world, at a deep spirituallevel of consciousness, they realized an underlying unity.To realize one's inner divinity, Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad-Gita, "The Supreme Reality is revealed in the consciousness of thosewho have conquered themselves." Thus, one's spiritual quest beginswith cultivating self-control, detachment, truthfulness and non-violence, and culminates in realizing the ultimate Reality withinoneself and in all of the existence.Thus, according to Vedanta (spiritual philosophy of Hinduism),spirituality is not just believing, but becoming. It requires anincreasing and deepening awareness of the divine presence within andrecognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness of all. Then, one cantranscend apparent differences based on race, religion or gender,and transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion,empathy and non-violence.The absence of spirituality creates the delusion of separatenessresulting in a false sense of superiority. Consequently,exploitation, hatred, fear and violence follows. Swami Vivekanandacorrectly observed that, "… the strength of every race lies in itsspirituality, and the death of that race begins the day thatspirituality wanes and materialism gains ground."--------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Spiritual progress is unlike progress we measure in worldly matters.One can measure over time noting the change between two points intime.Conventionally we may say spiritual progress just to encouragesadhakas on their way to liberation. however, time is not ofessence, rather, the correct understanding is the essence.As such the understanding happens in flashes when one is leastexpecting. It's "aha wow.., now I know" moments accompanied by joydue to the absence of "me". Such moments are brief in the starting,but they become more prevalent and asserting down the road.Bottom line is that progress, for the lack of better word, is whenthere is increasing joy without any cause!One cannot say when one changed but the Change is certainty in termsof steadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust inGod which is Life!At this point in one's sadhana, only selflessness in karmas,devotion to God(vasudev sarvam), and absence of "me", or I AM THATremains...namaskara............Pratap Bhatt--------------------------------Shree Hari-Dear Prepetina,Be very careful, because of the word judge, because one may start tothink, "Well I meditate twice a day, and practice sacred ritualsevery day, she/he doesn't. I am much further along the path!", youmay start to judge others.Remember the two birds at the fountain.A true story: During my time in Singapore, I used to pass a verysmall Hindu Shrine, and there was this man there busy cleaning andtidying the Shrine and its surrounds on a daily basis. When he wasdone he used to sit in Lotus for hours in the sun, just where thepath to the Shrine met the street pavement, but to one side, so asnot to obstruct, (I presume), his eyes were always open, and themerest hint of a smile on his face.I mentioned this man of so long ago to a group of people we meditatewith, asking what was he doing sitting there for so long, quite a fewfolk agreed with the comment made by one, "He was doing Gods Work",another said, "After all you still remember him", I do indeed, hewas my,'Silent Guru'.B.G. Chapter 9Those who direct their thoughts to Me,Worshiping Me with steadfast mind,For them I secure what they lackAnd preserve that which they possess. (22)The only yardstick I see is that you have started to do that which isdescribed in Gitaji 9:22, as you have turned towards this Satsang, (aspiritual move).My simple humble advice is to get lost unto 'The Beloved', forgetabout trying to measure your spiritual worth.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor).-----------------------------There are no yardsticks as such but with spiritual practices likesewa, sadhna, satsang and meditation if done properly and regularlyone can notice the changes in one's thoughts, action , behaviouretc.. When one connects with one's Self, he or she will realise thatall that we see is maya or an illusion and that the only true pathand the goal for our soul is to become one with the Parmatma or God.After that we are spared from the endless and painful cycle of birthand death.Hari Shanker Deo-------------------------------SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES TO DATE- Spiritual progress is unlike progress in worldly matters- spirituality is not just believing, but becoming- Spirituality is increasing and deepening awareness of the divinepresence within and recognizing the fundamental spiritual oneness ofall, thus transcending all differences.- Absence of spirituality creates delusion ofseparateness/superiority- transform anger, selfishness, and jealousy into compassion,empathy and non-violence.- Swami Vivekananda "… the strength of every race lies in itsspirituality..."- time is not of essence, rather, the correct understanding is theessence.- understanding happens in flashes.. It's "aha wow... One cannot saywhen one changed but the Change is certainty in terms ofsteadfastness in attitude, prayerful heart, unshakable trust in God!Life! and only selflessness in karmas, devotion to God (vasudevsarvam), and absence of "me", or I AM THAT remains.- get lost unto 'The Beloved', forget about trying to measure yourspiritual worth.- Bhagwaan (The Beloved) will secure what is lacking and preservethat which you possess- Only one goal - become one with Paramatma for eternal bliss - allelse is maya. there are no yardsticks- Yardstick is--- reduction of Kama, Krodh, Lobha etc. Thisreduction is due to sadana Bakthi.- reduction in frequency, velocity of anger/greed/desires and Theydon't remain that long as they used to in the past. Divineproperties of Gita 16:1-3- Yardstick - how far he is approaching the truth/existence- one should not worry about meeting or not meeting the above.Rather experience surprise as to why this trait is not in me !Judging leads to comparison resulting in pride(superiority complex)or frustration (inferiority complex). Both do not help sadhak andare avoidable.- increasing joy for no external reason. state of bliss or moksha- Trust, total surrender/acceptance, complete Maun...are theattributes to achieve the ultimate.. Even the thought of assessment,spiritual growth, the ultimate goal has to be finally left behind.--------------------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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