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Dear Sadhakas, Namakar

 

Please enlighten me, regarding what are the duties of a Gruhastha

(family man, householder), according to Geetaji.

 

....Gee Waman

 

-------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

 

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Dear Sadhakas, Namakar

 

Please enlighten me, regarding what are the duties of a Gruhastha

(family man, householder), according to Geetaji.

 

....Gee Waman

-------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

duty=dharama ?

Family or no family, the only dharma of a man is to unite with God.

1.Accept God is mine and family belongs to God. So serve the family

considering it as a gift given to you by God, with the capacity

given to you by God, with the tools given to you by God.

 

2.Choose any path-gyaan yoga, bhakti yoga or karma yoga. The common

element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme is the most important.

Many hard working people think that they are following karma yoga,

but they take all responsibily on themselves, they worry, they

insist on certain outcome, they trust their own strength, to me they

are not Yogi.

 

yoga-sthah kuru karmani

sangam tyaktva dhananjaya

siddhy-asiddhyoh samo bhutva

samatvam yoga ucyate

 

Establish yr self in Yoga and perform yr duties,abandon all

attachment to success or failure. Such evenness of mind is called

yoga.....

 

Do whatever God wants you to do while reaiming established in yoga.

with Love,

a sadhika

 

Sadhna Karigar

-----------------------

 

 

Hi,

According to scriptures, 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of

gratitude. Human being is bound to do duties at various levels of

his life i.e Saisavam, Balyam, Kaumaram and Vardhakyam. In Kaumaram

normaly one takes up life of a householder or Grihastha. A

householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha. To fully live

the life of a human the operation manual called Gita is available

for reference at any level for us.

 

with love, krishnadasan.

----------------------------

 

Dear Sadhak,

Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined elsewhere. One is not to analyze it, nor aspire for it.

Whatever comes in the way that has to be performed with all

sincerity, without having any interest in the result. One has been

given only the right of execution of the assigned work, neither the

cause of it nor the effect.(Karmanye ebo te adhikara, kodachono

faleshu ma, In Gita-II.47).

Option of becoming a Family man was also assigned which has its own

format. The format has also to be strictly followed, as it comes in

the way, but never one can apply his self conscience about

evaluation of the quality of the work assigned. (karmasanginam

agynang budhivedang na jonoyet bidwan jukto sarba karmani sadacharan

jojayet...Gita III-26)

 

BARIN CHATTERJEE

 

Warm regards

--------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR BARINJI,

Kindly explain what you mean in the last paragraph ... " never one can

apply his self conscience....... " .

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

--------------------------

There is ONLY ONE DUTY for all irrespective of what they do ...

BEING HAPPY!

 

As Shankara says,

 

Jatilo mundee lunchita keshah kashaayaambra bahukrita veshah |

Pashyannapi cha na pashyati mudhah udaranimittam bahukritaveshah ||

 

everyone has to do something or the other. One claims to be a house-

holder having no clue of what is house and what is holding. So is a

Sanyasi equally clueless of what Sanyasa means. One may ask, what is

the basis to doubt of their knowledge upon what they are doing?

Happiness, my dear friend. One who is unhappy does not where he

is ... because he does not know what he is doing ... because he does

not know who he is ...

 

Whether you are happy with what you are doing depends on your

intellect. Whether you are happy with what you are depends on your

wisdom. The question really is ... whether you want to be happy with

what you are doing ... or with what you are.

 

If you want to be happy with what you do ... many questions

follow ... how is my " doing " related to happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary as I see ... then, how much " doing " is

required to maintain the derivative happiness?

 

The " doing " is multitude and variant ... then how many " doings "

should I do to derive effective happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary, multitude and variant, how can I ever say

that the " happiness-es " derived from my various " doings " is really

the happiness?

 

Now the first question looms around stronger ... has the " doing "

anything to do with the happiness at all?!

 

I you want you to be happy with what you are ... then who cares what

you do? Stick with what you think you are.

 

Then comes the question, " Am I the one that I think that I am? "

 

Then, my dear friend, the clock starts ticking for you toward the

real happiness ... because you will find that you are not whatever

you thought as, perpetually. You will discover that all your

thoughts of " what you are " were in fact your " doings " and

never " you " . Then you may also realize that your happiness were

perpetually consumed by these parasites ... your identities ...

your " doings " and your " are-s " . As far as we are cognizant of what

we " are " and what we " do " , we are OK ... we can interrogate them

further.

 

Relating " what we do " and " what we are " to the happiness is an

absurd baseless logic ... it is called " Kaakataaleeya Nyaaya " . A

crow sits on a palm tree. Palm fruit falls down. The observer says,

the palm fruit falls down when a crow sits on the tree. The observer

beleives that there is a relation having not given any attention to

what relation means! Being happy is neither in " what we do " nor

in " what we think we are " . Both are the two faces of the same coing -

IDENTITY, the ego. In fact, if you were ever happy, my dear friend,

it was ONLY WHEN you had kept this coin away in your pocket.

 

Therefore, whatever you are and whatever you do is OK as far you are

happy. Because your happiness indicates the absence of the true

culprit - the ego. If we stick to the happiness as such, we will

then realize that " what is needed is to throw away this fellow, the

ego. Then what I do does not matter ... and what I am does not

matter ... I am happy as I should be! " . In my opinion, that is

spirituality.

 

Therefore, I see only one rule for spirituality irrespective of what

we are and what we do ... being happy ... being happy at the

core ... being nothing but happiness as such.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

---------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR NAGA NARAYANA JI, Yes! Being happy at the core is key ! One

doubt arises is can one be happy at another's expense as a

householder/family man? Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides

being happy, there must be certain duties of a Householder. Kindly

explain .. how one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true

culprit - the ego?

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

---------------------------

Interesting question......

 

It is all about knowing your true self.........while playing the

role whatever it may be........

Start with positive thought then to Happy thought and try to shift

to no thoughts....

 

As a householder even reaching to the stage of keeping happy

thoughts all the time works very fine and

gives great results and then the ultimate may happen too....while

the role of a householder goes on

perfectly, joyously........

 

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

Duties of a Gruastha

 

Very simple I believe. I know I don't write much because I am afraid

I may offend some people as I have my own strong views as well.

 

It is nice that you used the word DUTY. Life is a duty and one has

to understand the difference between duty and Maya. Maya attaches

you to the physical manifestation, duty is done as an entity and not

shrouded in Maya. As a father, mother, brother son, sister etc one

performs duty. Thus Moksha is easier to attain.

 

Happy to call this my 2 cents.

shashi dave

------------------------------

SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES

 

- only dharma of a man is to unite with God

- Accept God is mine and family belongs to God.

- Follow any path, common element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme

- 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of gratitude.

- householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha

- operation manual called Gita is ever available to us

- Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined

- Duty is to be performed with all sincerity, without attachment to

the result

- Being Happy at the core

- Know your true self, all else is a role

- From positive to happy to no thoughts!

- role of a householder goes on perfectly, joyously

- Life is a duty and one has to understand the difference between

duty and Maya

 

 

 

 

-------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

 

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Posted
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Dear Sadhakas, Namakar

 

Please enlighten me, regarding what are the duties of a Gruhastha

(family man, householder), according to Geetaji.

 

....Gee Waman

-------------------------

 

 

 

-Shree Hari-

 

" O descendant of Bharata, at that time Krishna, smiling, in the midst

of both the armies, spoke the following words to the grief-stricken

Arjuna. " B.G. 2:10

 

The 'Smile of Krishna', that is pregnant with, Divine Love,

Compassion, and Wisdom.

 

If one is of a nature to have these qualities in the household,

then peace and love will prevail.

 

Being detached from the Ego Wars, will give one the ability to be of

real value to all within the family sphere, (and those who know you).

 

A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on. (PLEASE ELABORATE ON THE QUALITIES - FROM

GITA TALK MODERATORS)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor)

--------------------------------

 

 

Hari Om

Grihastha - Household is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity) which a

human being is subjected to. No other tapasya is as subtle, as

fierce and as consuming as is that of a household. One must always ,

therefore, remember this 'grihastha' is a school for one's

emancipation and address the same accordingly.

 

Look at the family of Lord Shiva ! Lord Shiva sports garland of

skulls and serpent. Lord Shiva's vehicle is bull. Parvatiji on the

contrary is always wearing beautiful ornaments. Parvatiji's vehicle

is Lion. Their son, Lord Ganesha's vehicle is mouse. Their second

son Lord Karthikeya's vehicle is peacock. The serpent and mouse are

by birth fierce enemies. Mouse is the food of serpent. Peacock and

serpent are enemies. Peacock kills serpent. Lion and bull are

enemies. Bull is food for lion. Bitter enemies of each other. All in

one family. But, all live in perfect harmony and comfortably.

 

JUST AS: In Lord Shiva's family all members have different and

contrasting natures, still there is unity in the family.

 

SIMILARLY: All members of any household have different natures, and

different perspectives, and still there can be unity.

 

How? Each member should look at his role and duty only and not at

other's role and duty. One should always strive to give pleasure to

other. " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST " - should be the 'bhava'

(inner expression) of a Grihastha.

 

A grihastha in order to provide pleasure to other family members,

must renounce his own pleasures. That renunciation in fact is true

austerity ! It is law that without renouncing your own pleasure, you

can't provide happiness to others.

 

1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures- if you do these, you have lived

well in the grihashtha.

 

Sadhaks should remember that it is in Grihastha only- each and every

household, no exceptions- that you get practical opportunities to

get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual likings

and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha) and learn fine points of

real " karma yoga " and " bhakti yoga " . Grihashtha Ashram (Household)

is the most important and most beneficial phase of each human being.

One must therefore make best use of it. It is in grihastha, seeds of

of your old age are sown.

 

Above all, in Grihastha it is the utmost duty of a male is to see

God in his parents. If a grihashtha merely obeys his parents , his

life becomes divine. His old age becomes ideal.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally. Doing happens while

doer disappears! At all stages and in all roles duties will be

performed within the guidelines of Dharma as appropriate for the

circumstances one is placed, because one is Loving what has to be

done.

Without feeling such Love, duty feels like forced upon one, and

becomes chores, and boring! With Love, it is not so much as duty,

that one has to do, but rather its a Joy to do it.

So the real issue boils down to " what stops such Love to flow

freely? " Not realizing what I truly AM.

However, we can be guided by wisdom of Gita to ultimately realize

our true nature by performing duties in the best possible ways we

know, with devotion, with Love and without any expectations or

favors. Doing in such a way is its own reward, Yoga itself,

incorporating Yogah Karmashu Kaushalam principle of Gita

So as a householder with family, one takes care of those who are

entrusted to one by God. with an attitude of seeing the family as

gift from God, and serving them is to serve God. That is all!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Grihastha is the feeder to all other ashrams. Saints also get food

from households only. The beauty of grihastha ashram is that " you

can't run away " from your duties. You must do your duties- else

shatterred home ! A sadhu if he confronts with something

unpleasant , he will simply take his kamandal and walk away from the

scene. But a household can not ! That is " austerity " !

 

Rule of Grihastha is simple- Serve, Serve and serve ! Do your duty !

It is a law that service/duty destroys " mamata " . It is also a law

that if mamata is destroyed, ego gets destroyed automatically. You

instantly realise God if mamata (mine) is destroyed. What else ego

consists except " me " ? Where is the " me " when " mine " is

destroyed? " Me " (ego) and " Mine " ( mamata) are the chains which bind

a human being to the world. From this only Raag and Dvesha emerge !

Household is the place where you can easily -simply by serving the

family-destroy them decisively and achieve the very purpose for

which the human life has been given to you !

 

" Nirmamo Nirahankarasya sa shanti madi gachhati " - He who has

become " minenessless " and " egoless " gets permanent Peace and

liberation.

 

As simple as that !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

(Shashikalaji, ANY REFERENCE? CAN ONE NOT BE FREE OF MAMTA (free

of mine-ness)BUT STILL HAVE SENSE OF I-NESS (EGOISM)? GT

MODERATORS)

 

--------------------------

Friends

1.Arjuna was a Gruhastha, a family man and a householder.The

teachings applicable to Arjuna is applicable to

Gruhastha or householder.

2.The difference between Gruhastha and Sannyasi is difference in

objects of desire or attachment. King Janak devoid of attachment

was better and spiritually advanced than many Cannabis.

3.As rightly mentioned by Shri Naga Narayana the only duty of human

beings is to be happy. It is the substance,core and outcome of all

knowledge and efforts.

4.God is also called 'SAT CHIT ANAND' meaning mind/heart filled

with indestructible/permanent joy.Such state is not dependent on

others.

5.Happiness or Joy cannot be at other's cost or expense.

6.Sacrifice and happiness are contrary. Sacrifice will not provide

happiness. (KINDLY EXPLAIN - FROM GITA TALK MODERATOR)

7.According to Gita ,the only duty is to unite with God because that

alone can be source of happiness.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

KAMA--ARTHA--MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

The 4 steps Grahastha need to do.

But the Grahasta has to do and live as per sastras that Bagavan

says. Grahasth has lot of duties on shoulder as Kunthi had. But

Kunthi did well.

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

duty=dharama ?

Family or no family, the only dharma of a man is to unite with God.

1.Accept God is mine and family belongs to God. So serve the family

considering it as a gift given to you by God, with the capacity

given to you by God, with the tools given to you by God.

 

2.Choose any path-gyaan yoga, bhakti yoga or karma yoga. The common

element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme is the most important.

Many hard working people think that they are following karma yoga,

but they take all responsibily on themselves, they worry, they

insist on certain outcome, they trust their own strength, to me they

are not Yogi.

 

yoga-sthah kuru karmani

sangam tyaktva dhananjaya

siddhy-asiddhyoh samo bhutva

samatvam yoga ucyate

 

Establish yr self in Yoga and perform yr duties,abandon all

attachment to success or failure. Such evenness of mind is called

yoga.....

 

Do whatever God wants you to do while reaiming established in yoga.

with Love,

a sadhika

 

Sadhna Karigar

-----------------------

 

 

Hi,

According to scriptures, 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of

gratitude. Human being is bound to do duties at various levels of

his life i.e Saisavam, Balyam, Kaumaram and Vardhakyam. In Kaumaram

normaly one takes up life of a householder or Grihastha. A

householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha. To fully live

the life of a human the operation manual called Gita is available

for reference at any level for us.

 

with love, krishnadasan.

----------------------------

 

Dear Sadhak,

Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined elsewhere. One is not to analyze it, nor aspire for it.

Whatever comes in the way that has to be performed with all

sincerity, without having any interest in the result. One has been

given only the right of execution of the assigned work, neither the

cause of it nor the effect.(Karmanye ebo te adhikara, kodachono

faleshu ma, In Gita-II.47).

Option of becoming a Family man was also assigned which has its own

format. The format has also to be strictly followed, as it comes in

the way, but never one can apply his self conscience about

evaluation of the quality of the work assigned. (karmasanginam

agynang budhivedang na jonoyet bidwan jukto sarba karmani sadacharan

jojayet...Gita III-26)

 

BARIN CHATTERJEE

 

Warm regards

--------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR BARINJI,

Kindly explain what you mean in the last paragraph ... " never one can

apply his self conscience....... " .

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

--------------------------

There is ONLY ONE DUTY for all irrespective of what they do ...

BEING HAPPY!

 

As Shankara says,

 

Jatilo mundee lunchita keshah kashaayaambra bahukrita veshah |

Pashyannapi cha na pashyati mudhah udaranimittam bahukritaveshah ||

 

everyone has to do something or the other. One claims to be a house-

holder having no clue of what is house and what is holding. So is a

Sanyasi equally clueless of what Sanyasa means. One may ask, what is

the basis to doubt of their knowledge upon what they are doing?

Happiness, my dear friend. One who is unhappy does not where he

is ... because he does not know what he is doing ... because he does

not know who he is ...

 

Whether you are happy with what you are doing depends on your

intellect. Whether you are happy with what you are depends on your

wisdom. The question really is ... whether you want to be happy with

what you are doing ... or with what you are.

 

If you want to be happy with what you do ... many questions

follow ... how is my " doing " related to happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary as I see ... then, how much " doing " is

required to maintain the derivative happiness?

 

The " doing " is multitude and variant ... then how many " doings "

should I do to derive effective happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary, multitude and variant, how can I ever say

that the " happiness-es " derived from my various " doings " is really

the happiness?

 

Now the first question looms around stronger ... has the " doing "

anything to do with the happiness at all?!

 

I you want you to be happy with what you are ... then who cares what

you do? Stick with what you think you are.

 

Then comes the question, " Am I the one that I think that I am? "

 

Then, my dear friend, the clock starts ticking for you toward the

real happiness ... because you will find that you are not whatever

you thought as, perpetually. You will discover that all your

thoughts of " what you are " were in fact your " doings " and

never " you " . Then you may also realize that your happiness were

perpetually consumed by these parasites ... your identities ...

your " doings " and your " are-s " . As far as we are cognizant of what

we " are " and what we " do " , we are OK ... we can interrogate them

further.

 

Relating " what we do " and " what we are " to the happiness is an

absurd baseless logic ... it is called " Kaakataaleeya Nyaaya " . A

crow sits on a palm tree. Palm fruit falls down. The observer says,

the palm fruit falls down when a crow sits on the tree. The observer

beleives that there is a relation having not given any attention to

what relation means! Being happy is neither in " what we do " nor

in " what we think we are " . Both are the two faces of the same coing -

IDENTITY, the ego. In fact, if you were ever happy, my dear friend,

it was ONLY WHEN you had kept this coin away in your pocket.

 

Therefore, whatever you are and whatever you do is OK as far you are

happy. Because your happiness indicates the absence of the true

culprit - the ego. If we stick to the happiness as such, we will

then realize that " what is needed is to throw away this fellow, the

ego. Then what I do does not matter ... and what I am does not

matter ... I am happy as I should be! " . In my opinion, that is

spirituality.

 

Therefore, I see only one rule for spirituality irrespective of what

we are and what we do ... being happy ... being happy at the

core ... being nothing but happiness as such.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

---------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR NAGA NARAYANA JI, Yes! Being happy at the core is key ! One

doubt arises is can one be happy at another's expense as a

householder/family man? Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides

being happy, there must be certain duties of a Householder. Kindly

explain .. how one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true

culprit - the ego?

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

---------------------------

Interesting question......

 

It is all about knowing your true self.........while playing the

role whatever it may be........

Start with positive thought then to Happy thought and try to shift

to no thoughts....

 

As a householder even reaching to the stage of keeping happy

thoughts all the time works very fine and

gives great results and then the ultimate may happen too....while

the role of a householder goes on

perfectly, joyously........

 

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

Duties of a Gruastha

 

Very simple I believe. I know I don't write much because I am afraid

I may offend some people as I have my own strong views as well.

 

It is nice that you used the word DUTY. Life is a duty and one has

to understand the difference between duty and Maya. Maya attaches

you to the physical manifestation, duty is done as an entity and not

shrouded in Maya. As a father, mother, brother son, sister etc one

performs duty. Thus Moksha is easier to attain.

 

Happy to call this my 2 cents.

shashi dave

------------------------------

SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES

 

- only dharma of a man is to unite with God

- Accept God is mine and family belongs to God.

- Follow any path, common element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme

- 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of gratitude.

- householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha

- operation manual called Gita is ever available to us

- Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined

- Duty is to be performed with all sincerity, without attachment to

the result

- Being Happy at the core

- Know your true self, all else is a role

- From positive to happy to no thoughts!

- role of a householder goes on perfectly, joyously

- Life is a duty and one has to understand the difference between

duty and Maya

- Householder life is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity)

- Attitude must be - " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST "

- 1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures

- When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally.

- get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual

likings and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha)

- utmost duty of a male is to see God in his parents

- become free of mamta and ahamtaa by serve, serve, serve.

- Free of I-ness and Mine-ness.

- DHARMA - ARTHA - KAMA- MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

 

 

 

 

-------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

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5. Focus on subject at hand only.

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10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

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Ram Ram

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Dear Sadhakas, Namakar

 

Please enlighten me, regarding what are the duties of a Gruhastha

(family man, householder), according to Geetaji.

 

....Gee Waman

-------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

-Shree Hari-

 

In response to the comment by the moderators, to my somewhat

truncated response, I have contemplated Gitaji for what was

underlying my thoughts.

 

'A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on.

 

Taking the verses from Gitaji posted below, and looking at a profile

of a family head who has gained these attributes:

 

The man of restraint is awake

In what is night for all beings;

That in which all beings awake

Is night for the wise one who sees. B.G. 2(69)

 

The highest Self of him who has

Conquered himself and is peaceful,

Is steadfast in cold, heat, pleasure,

Pain; and honor and dishonor. B.G. 6(7)

The yogi who is content in

Knowledge and discrimination,

With senses conquered–unto him

Earth, stone, and gold are all the same. B.G. 6(8)

He attains eminence who looks

The same on well-wishers, friends, foes,

Neutral to enemies and kin,

The righteous and the unrighteous. B.G. 6(9)

 

Would not get caught up with mob mentality, understanding his duty

to create a wise and functioning family.

Being at peace, with the Divine shining through, will do what is

right, will not show favoritism, see the worth in all, including the

members of ones family. (Not to be one eyed, about the family or its

members).

Not to waste effort, in trying to buy affection within the family

with trinkets and toys even if they are sports cars etc.

Understanding that one should not judge, as all is working out as it

will (Lila). But with compassion and love one can offer sound

guidance.

(These attributes are far more global than family, but actually are

we not one big family?)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor).

 

---------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

MIKE! Thank you! BEAUTIFULLY SAID. Are we not one big family? Thus

is our PRIMARY duty AS A " ONE BIG " FAMILY MAN - " Sarvabhootahite

rataah " (Gita 12:4)? That is - May we all be absorbed in the well

being of all. What is sadhak's understanding regarding this? Does

Gita speak at all of the smaller family nucleas that we think off as

family?

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Excellent Q by GT Moderators ! There are two ahams (egos) . One that

relates with " existence " of the self (I exist) . A Jnana Yogi

establishes himself into that only. That remains in all three yogis-

Jnana, Bhakti and Karma yogis, even after liberation/kalyaan.

 

There is " another " ego which is connecting " self " (pure soul) to

inert (to world - body/mind/intellect). It is always " worldly " ego.

I am body, I am Doctor, I am rich etc. This " me " gets destroyed with

destruction of " mine " immediately as a law. What remains behind is

pure unattached free " self " !

Jeevan Mukta. Liberated while living. Janaka, Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj, Vaashishtha, Kaak Bhusandi etc had become liberated before

merging with Brahma. Their binding ego had destroyed but " I exist "

this awareness remained. " I " thus remained there. But that " I "

always remained in " Equanimity " mode- unattached !

 

In fact 'desire', 'spriha' , 'mamata' and 'ahankaar' all four are

one element only-worldly ego ! Desire is gross. " Spriha " (worry for

basic needs for body ) is subtle than desire. " Mamata " (mineness) is

more subtle than " spriha " . Ego (me) is the subtlest among the four

names of same element. Hence in " effect " you renounce

fully " mamata " , you will become " egoless " and vice versa !

 

As regards reference of Gita/Swamiji - please refer pg 137 of Sadhak

Sanjeevani where Swamiji while commenting upon BG 2:71 had stated

exactly what I have written. Read particularly second last para on

pg 137 (Hindi) of Sadhak Sanjeevani !

 

When the body is not " mine " , then I don't need anything . Desire

for what? Worry for what? When nothing is " mine " then what remains

in " me " ?

" Me " in fact is always with reference to worldly possessions, body

etc. When " mine " is gone, very basis for " me " is gone !! What

remained behind is " I exist " - this awareness only ! Unattached,

Free, Liberated - me - I exist !!

 

A Karma yogi (Grihashtha-houeshold generally) strives to

renounce " mineness " - mamata by putting his/her body, belongings,

powers etc fully into the service of the world. By doing that

his/her " mineness " first gets destroyed and thereupon ego (me -ness)

gets purified of " worldly impact/connection " ! A Jnana Yogi first

eliminates " me-ness " (ahankaar- I am doer) by renouncing worldly

activities in favour of nature ( I am not body. I don't do

anything ) and thereupon his/her mamata gets renounced. A Bhakti

yogi changes his " me-ness " from worldly to Godly ( I am of God ) and

mineness from worldly to Godly (ONLY God is mine) and thus becomes

egoless and mamtaless !! All three thus renounce " connection with

inert- world - body/mind/intellect/activity/matter " . " I exist " -

this awareness remains in them till death ! They use body, mind,

intellect - but in " equanimous mode " - unattached !!

 

Thanks ! Nothing pleases me more than such Question / Answer

sessions. A really good Question !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

THANK YOU JEE JEE! (GT MODERATORS)

--------------------------------

Thanks for the wonderful questions …

 

How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit - the

ego?

Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family man?

Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there must

be certain duties of a Householder?

 

Let us see …

 

Q: How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit -

the ego?

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-triggered,

whether it is established within or borrowed from around, it has the

same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the ego. Anybody

can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes alcohol why

he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be always to

forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard. If you

analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to analyze), it

becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at least to

forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there. Whether a

person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance (e.g.

coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans, etc.),

and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

Its uniques aspect of the happiness is its independence of all the

media through which one attains it. Also, the happiness should be

ever present everywhere. Otherwise, how can one attain it

irresepctive of the media chosen? How can one attain the same every

time consistently? How can anybody attain it any time anywhere? This

reinforces the theory that it is present across time and space,

rather it transcends space and time and therefore everything else.

 

When it is independent of everything, why should one develop

dependence on anything else? When it is ever-present everywhere in

abundance, why every one seem to struggle to pursue the same as if

in a panick that there is a scarcity of the same? That remains the

puzzle for everyone.

 

The reason why we loose sight of the happiness is the corruption

smeared by the ego who comes back to action claiming ownership over

the erstwhile experience of the happiness. Knowing the un-ownable

nature of the happiness subconciously, the ego enforces its

authority further by making a belief that the happiness is hidden in

the objects and actions because it feels it can manipulate them.

Without its own knowledge, it becomes a slave to the same ideas,

actions and objects which are its slaves in its belief. That is the

weakness of the ego … dependence on external entities such as

objects, actions and ideas to believe the presence of the happiness.

It does not understand, rather it refuses to understand, that the

very same ideas, actions or objects could provide happiness only by

removing itself from its cognition by disconnecting it from the

mechanism of relating itself to the I-ness and Mine-ness in real.

Due to its ignorance of what is happening, it becomes addicted to

the very notions, actions and objects to " forget " itself.

 

As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH = HAPPINESS and ANAND = BLISS. In you response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators)

 

Q: Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family

man?

 

When one is established in CONTENTMENT and FREEDOM how can he ever

disturb others?! Even when one is working toward THAT, how can there

be exploitation of others? Compassion floods out when one is filled

with Freedom and Contentment; compassion oozes out even when one's

vision is fixed toward THAT. Such a person can never be

inconsiderate to his environment - be it the family, or colleagues,

or fellow travellers, or any stranger on the street. Compassion to

others is an eventuality, a natural eventuality ascertaining the

abundance of happiness within. Apparent lack of compassion is the

symptom of the inherent lack of contentment and freedom. One has to

dig deep through the apparent symptom toward the inherent root cause

to correct the corruption at deeper and deeper layers. THAT TO ME IS

THE SPIRITUALITY. Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's

beliefs is deceit and hypocracy.

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. All the disturbances of

an ocean is superficial … the deeper we dive, the more peaceful it

is … the abyss of all the bliss is inherent in our depths

where " what we think we do " as well as " what we think we are " are

both annihilated without traces.

 

Q: Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there

must be certain duties of a Householder?

 

The notions of sacrifice, forgiving, etc. have a corrupt notion

thanks to our ego. What is meant really to people in common sense is

that, a person forgoes his happiness for others' happiness in these

acts. That means, the ownership is strongly enseeded in such

notions. Typically, sacrifice would mean " Yes that is mine, but I do

not mind giving to the other man so that he can be happy with! " Same

way, forgiving typically means, " Yes the other fellow did something

wrong; but it is OK; let me be magnanimous enough not to react; poor

fellow he does not know what he is doing! " Do you see the strength

of ownership in a subtle camafluage here? That is dangerous for

spirituality.

 

In contentment, there is no room for ideas such as sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. Whatever a content man does looks like sacrifice

as he is not staking for any fruits from the actions that flow out

of him. Also, since whatever the environemnt does to him are lost in

the oblivion of the contentment within and hence cannot invoke any

reaction at all. Therefore, it sounds like he is forgiving

everything that is happening around. To him … there is no sacrifice

and no forgiving. For him, " there is nothing mine to aid others " .

Then how can there be a notion of sacrifice? For him, " nothing can

go wrong as there is nothing wrong in the first place " . Then how can

there be a notion of forgiving? Obviously both notions belong to the

others who harbor their respective egoes!

 

(THANK YOU ! WE SEE NOW THE POINT. ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS

EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is having our eye on other's

welfare and benefit. This is true sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO

SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING, ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG

I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS BENEFICIAL TO US? From Gita Talk

Moderators).

 

For social and personal upliftment, a softer ego is better than the

crude one, I agree. Notions such as sacrifice, forgiving, etc. are

very useful there. In spiritual upliftment, ego is not acceptable in

any form. When the ego itself is annihilated in spiritual

upliftment, all other upliftments are just natural within that. That

is the beauty of spirituality versus " good living " . " Good living "

(Samaja Dharma) requires many tenets and doctrines as it still

remains variant and circumstantial. Spirituality (Sanaatana Dharma),

on the other hand, is eteranl and unique. It transcends all the

variations as well as the variants catergorically. The happiness

(Ananda) is its abode.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

The moment one applies self conscience the question of evaluation of

the task sets in, i.e., result is viewed and assessed whether it is

a " good " or " bad " job to do. The assigned job has to be done without

any consideration to that aspect.Could the doubt be cleared by this

humble person ? Namaste..

 

 

 

 

Grihastha - Household is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity) which a

human being is subjected to. No other tapasya is as subtle, as

fierce and as consuming as is that of a household. One must always ,

therefore, remember this 'grihastha' is a school for one's

emancipation and address the same accordingly.

 

Barin Chatterjee

------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

Look at the family of Lord Shiva ! Lord Shiva sports garland of

skulls and serpent. Lord Shiva's vehicle is bull. Parvatiji on the

contrary is always wearing beautiful ornaments. Parvatiji's vehicle

is Lion. Their son, Lord Ganesha's vehicle is mouse. Their second

son Lord Karthikeya's vehicle is peacock. The serpent and mouse are

by birth fierce enemies. Mouse is the food of serpent. Peacock and

serpent are enemies. Peacock kills serpent. Lion and bull are

enemies. Bull is food for lion. Bitter enemies of each other. All in

one family. But, all live in perfect harmony and comfortably.

 

JUST AS: In Lord Shiva's family all members have different and

contrasting natures, still there is unity in the family.

 

SIMILARLY: All members of any household have different natures, and

different perspectives, and still there can be unity.

 

How? Each member should look at his role and duty only and not at

other's role and duty. One should always strive to give pleasure to

other. " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST " - should be the 'bhava'

(inner expression) of a Grihastha.

 

A grihastha in order to provide pleasure to other family members,

must renounce his own pleasures. That renunciation in fact is true

austerity ! It is law that without renouncing your own pleasure, you

can't provide happiness to others.

 

1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures- if you do these, you have lived

well in the grihashtha.

 

Sadhaks should remember that it is in Grihastha only- each and every

household, no exceptions- that you get practical opportunities to

get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual likings

and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha) and learn fine points of

real " karma yoga " and " bhakti yoga " . Grihashtha Ashram (Household)

is the most important and most beneficial phase of each human being.

One must therefore make best use of it. It is in grihastha, seeds of

of your old age are sown.

 

Above all, in Grihastha it is the utmost duty of a male is to see

God in his parents. If a grihashtha merely obeys his parents , his

life becomes divine. His old age becomes ideal.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

" O descendant of Bharata, at that time Krishna, smiling, in the midst

of both the armies, spoke the following words to the grief-stricken

Arjuna. " B.G. 2:10

 

The 'Smile of Krishna', that is pregnant with, Divine Love,

Compassion, and Wisdom.

 

If one is of a nature to have these qualities in the household,

then peace and love will prevail.

 

Being detached from the Ego Wars, will give one the ability to be of

real value to all within the family sphere, (and those who know you).

 

A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on. (PLEASE ELABORATE ON THE QUALITIES - FROM

GITA TALK MODERATORS)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor)

--------------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally. Doing happens while

doer disappears! At all stages and in all roles duties will be

performed within the guidelines of Dharma as appropriate for the

circumstances one is placed, because one is Loving what has to be

done.

Without feeling such Love, duty feels like forced upon one, and

becomes chores, and boring! With Love, it is not so much as duty,

that one has to do, but rather its a Joy to do it.

So the real issue boils down to " what stops such Love to flow

freely? " Not realizing what I truly AM.

However, we can be guided by wisdom of Gita to ultimately realize

our true nature by performing duties in the best possible ways we

know, with devotion, with Love and without any expectations or

favors. Doing in such a way is its own reward, Yoga itself,

incorporating Yogah Karmashu Kaushalam principle of Gita

So as a householder with family, one takes care of those who are

entrusted to one by God. with an attitude of seeing the family as

gift from God, and serving them is to serve God. That is all!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Grihastha is the feeder to all other ashrams. Saints also get food

from households only. The beauty of grihastha ashram is that " you

can't run away " from your duties. You must do your duties- else

shatterred home ! A sadhu if he confronts with something

unpleasant , he will simply take his kamandal and walk away from the

scene. But a household can not ! That is " austerity " !

 

Rule of Grihastha is simple- Serve, Serve and serve ! Do your duty !

It is a law that service/duty destroys " mamata " . It is also a law

that if mamata is destroyed, ego gets destroyed automatically. You

instantly realise God if mamata (mine) is destroyed. What else ego

consists except " me " ? Where is the " me " when " mine " is

destroyed? " Me " (ego) and " Mine " ( mamata) are the chains which bind

a human being to the world. From this only Raag and Dvesha emerge !

Household is the place where you can easily -simply by serving the

family-destroy them decisively and achieve the very purpose for

which the human life has been given to you !

 

" Nirmamo Nirahankarasya sa shanti madi gachhati " - He who has

become " minenessless " and " egoless " gets permanent Peace and

liberation.

 

As simple as that !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

(Shashikalaji, ANY REFERENCE? CAN ONE NOT BE FREE OF MAMTA (free

of mine-ness)BUT STILL HAVE SENSE OF I-NESS (EGOISM)? GT

MODERATORS)

 

--------------------------

Friends

1.Arjuna was a Gruhastha, a family man and a householder.The

teachings applicable to Arjuna is applicable to

Gruhastha or householder.

2.The difference between Gruhastha and Sannyasi is difference in

objects of desire or attachment. King Janak devoid of attachment

was better and spiritually advanced than many Cannabis.

3.As rightly mentioned by Shri Naga Narayana the only duty of human

beings is to be happy. It is the substance,core and outcome of all

knowledge and efforts.

4.God is also called 'SAT CHIT ANAND' meaning mind/heart filled

with indestructible/permanent joy.Such state is not dependent on

others.

5.Happiness or Joy cannot be at other's cost or expense.

6.Sacrifice and happiness are contrary. Sacrifice will not provide

happiness. (KINDLY EXPLAIN - FROM GITA TALK MODERATOR)

7.According to Gita ,the only duty is to unite with God because that

alone can be source of happiness.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

KAMA--ARTHA--MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

The 4 steps Grahastha need to do.

But the Grahasta has to do and live as per sastras that Bagavan

says. Grahasth has lot of duties on shoulder as Kunthi had. But

Kunthi did well.

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

duty=dharama ?

Family or no family, the only dharma of a man is to unite with God.

1.Accept God is mine and family belongs to God. So serve the family

considering it as a gift given to you by God, with the capacity

given to you by God, with the tools given to you by God.

 

2.Choose any path-gyaan yoga, bhakti yoga or karma yoga. The common

element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme is the most important.

Many hard working people think that they are following karma yoga,

but they take all responsibily on themselves, they worry, they

insist on certain outcome, they trust their own strength, to me they

are not Yogi.

 

yoga-sthah kuru karmani

sangam tyaktva dhananjaya

siddhy-asiddhyoh samo bhutva

samatvam yoga ucyate

 

Establish yr self in Yoga and perform yr duties,abandon all

attachment to success or failure. Such evenness of mind is called

yoga.....

 

Do whatever God wants you to do while reaiming established in yoga.

with Love,

a sadhika

 

Sadhna Karigar

-----------------------

 

 

Hi,

According to scriptures, 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of

gratitude. Human being is bound to do duties at various levels of

his life i.e Saisavam, Balyam, Kaumaram and Vardhakyam. In Kaumaram

normaly one takes up life of a householder or Grihastha. A

householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha. To fully live

the life of a human the operation manual called Gita is available

for reference at any level for us.

 

with love, krishnadasan.

----------------------------

 

Dear Sadhak,

Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined elsewhere. One is not to analyze it, nor aspire for it.

Whatever comes in the way that has to be performed with all

sincerity, without having any interest in the result. One has been

given only the right of execution of the assigned work, neither the

cause of it nor the effect.(Karmanye ebo te adhikara, kodachono

faleshu ma, In Gita-II.47).

Option of becoming a Family man was also assigned which has its own

format. The format has also to be strictly followed, as it comes in

the way, but never one can apply his self conscience about

evaluation of the quality of the work assigned. (karmasanginam

agynang budhivedang na jonoyet bidwan jukto sarba karmani sadacharan

jojayet...Gita III-26)

 

BARIN CHATTERJEE

 

Warm regards

--------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR BARINJI,

Kindly explain what you mean in the last paragraph ... " never one can

apply his self conscience....... " .

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

--------------------------

There is ONLY ONE DUTY for all irrespective of what they do ...

BEING HAPPY!

 

As Shankara says,

 

Jatilo mundee lunchita keshah kashaayaambra bahukrita veshah |

Pashyannapi cha na pashyati mudhah udaranimittam bahukritaveshah ||

 

everyone has to do something or the other. One claims to be a house-

holder having no clue of what is house and what is holding. So is a

Sanyasi equally clueless of what Sanyasa means. One may ask, what is

the basis to doubt of their knowledge upon what they are doing?

Happiness, my dear friend. One who is unhappy does not where he

is ... because he does not know what he is doing ... because he does

not know who he is ...

 

Whether you are happy with what you are doing depends on your

intellect. Whether you are happy with what you are depends on your

wisdom. The question really is ... whether you want to be happy with

what you are doing ... or with what you are.

 

If you want to be happy with what you do ... many questions

follow ... how is my " doing " related to happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary as I see ... then, how much " doing " is

required to maintain the derivative happiness?

 

The " doing " is multitude and variant ... then how many " doings "

should I do to derive effective happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary, multitude and variant, how can I ever say

that the " happiness-es " derived from my various " doings " is really

the happiness?

 

Now the first question looms around stronger ... has the " doing "

anything to do with the happiness at all?!

 

I you want you to be happy with what you are ... then who cares what

you do? Stick with what you think you are.

 

Then comes the question, " Am I the one that I think that I am? "

 

Then, my dear friend, the clock starts ticking for you toward the

real happiness ... because you will find that you are not whatever

you thought as, perpetually. You will discover that all your

thoughts of " what you are " were in fact your " doings " and

never " you " . Then you may also realize that your happiness were

perpetually consumed by these parasites ... your identities ...

your " doings " and your " are-s " . As far as we are cognizant of what

we " are " and what we " do " , we are OK ... we can interrogate them

further.

 

Relating " what we do " and " what we are " to the happiness is an

absurd baseless logic ... it is called " Kaakataaleeya Nyaaya " . A

crow sits on a palm tree. Palm fruit falls down. The observer says,

the palm fruit falls down when a crow sits on the tree. The observer

beleives that there is a relation having not given any attention to

what relation means! Being happy is neither in " what we do " nor

in " what we think we are " . Both are the two faces of the same coing -

IDENTITY, the ego. In fact, if you were ever happy, my dear friend,

it was ONLY WHEN you had kept this coin away in your pocket.

 

Therefore, whatever you are and whatever you do is OK as far you are

happy. Because your happiness indicates the absence of the true

culprit - the ego. If we stick to the happiness as such, we will

then realize that " what is needed is to throw away this fellow, the

ego. Then what I do does not matter ... and what I am does not

matter ... I am happy as I should be! " . In my opinion, that is

spirituality.

 

Therefore, I see only one rule for spirituality irrespective of what

we are and what we do ... being happy ... being happy at the

core ... being nothing but happiness as such.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

---------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR NAGA NARAYANA JI, Yes! Being happy at the core is key ! One

doubt arises is can one be happy at another's expense as a

householder/family man? Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides

being happy, there must be certain duties of a Householder. Kindly

explain .. how one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true

culprit - the ego?

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

---------------------------

Interesting question......

 

It is all about knowing your true self.........while playing the

role whatever it may be........

Start with positive thought then to Happy thought and try to shift

to no thoughts....

 

As a householder even reaching to the stage of keeping happy

thoughts all the time works very fine and

gives great results and then the ultimate may happen too....while

the role of a householder goes on

perfectly, joyously........

 

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

Duties of a Gruastha

 

Very simple I believe. I know I don't write much because I am afraid

I may offend some people as I have my own strong views as well.

 

It is nice that you used the word DUTY. Life is a duty and one has

to understand the difference between duty and Maya. Maya attaches

you to the physical manifestation, duty is done as an entity and not

shrouded in Maya. As a father, mother, brother son, sister etc one

performs duty. Thus Moksha is easier to attain.

 

Happy to call this my 2 cents.

shashi dave

------------------------------

SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES

 

- only dharma of a man is to unite with God

- Accept God is mine and family belongs to God.

- Follow any path, common element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme

- 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of gratitude.

- householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha

- operation manual called Gita is ever available to us

- Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined

- Duty is to be performed with all sincerity, without attachment to

the result

- Being Happy at the core

- Know your true self, all else is a role

- From positive to happy to no thoughts!

- role of a householder goes on perfectly, joyously

- Life is a duty and one has to understand the difference between

duty and Maya

- Householder life is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity)

- Attitude must be - " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST "

- 1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures

- When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally.

- get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual

likings and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha)

- utmost duty of a male is to see God in his parents

- become free of mamta and ahamtaa by serve, serve, serve.

- Free of I-ness and Mine-ness.

- DHARMA - ARTHA - KAMA- MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

 

 

 

 

-------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

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Dear Sadhakas, Namakar

 

Please enlighten me, regarding what are the duties of a Gruhastha

(family man, householder), according to Geetaji.

 

....Gee Waman

-------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Friends

I refer to the Gita Talk Moderator's request for explanation on my

statement 'Sacrifice and happiness are contrary'

1.Mr Naga Narayan has explained it correctly and adequately that the

notion or act of sacrifices boosts ego.

2.Act done with compassion and empathy for the benefit of other

will not boost ego and the act itself will be joy.

3.Sacrifice assumes forgoing something whereas in reality the

happiness by doing something for others is much more.

4.Sacrifice ,in a way ,focuses attention on other whereas happiness

focuses on self.

5.Sacrifice assumes owning and parting with something valuable

whereas for a sadhak nothing is owned and nothing is parted with.

 

If anything done which does not boosts ego it is ok but mind is vey

subtle

 

There is fundamentally no difference of opinion in importance of

sacrifice but one has to careful about it's impact on ego.

 

Mr Naga Narayan has also mentioned Forgiveness.

 

I am willing to forgive now is the first step in forgiving. Only

saying 'I forgive now completely and unconditionaly' is not

sufficient.Major issues and problems can be resolved by one

statement 'I am willing to forgive now' It can be made a daily 5-10

minutes routine every night.

 

But even more important is ' I seek forgiveness now' This single

sentence can work miracle.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

------------------------------

 

Q: SUKH = HAPPINESS; and ANAND = BLISS. In your response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand.

 

Normally, the scriptures refer to the same in three levels - Ananda,

Sukha and Bhoga. Though they all address the same experience, the

attitude behind the experience differ dramatically depending on the

ignorance and inertia hoarded in an individual.

 

Ananda is the state of bliss where there are no attitudes - nobody

to claim the ownership of the experience. As soon as an owner (the

ego) crops up, the absolute experience becomes a memory in the

owners perception. The recall of the absolute bliss is often

referred to as Sukha. When an external agent is given the authority

over the same experience - the belief that the joy is inherent in

the objects of pleasures - it is called Bhoga.

 

In other words,

 

Bhoga – The objects are let to own the (notion of) happiness – the

ego owns the anticipation of the experience thereupon. The

individual craves for the availability of the objects of pleasures

and enterst the whirlpool of miseries.

Sukha – The subject owns the (memory of) happiness - the ego owns

the belief of enjoyership. The individual elates in his own prowess

to command the experience. On the positive side, it allows the ego

to pause to wonder and ponder `what is the nature of the happiness

and what exactly is its locus?'

Ananda – The Happiness remains as The Absolute where both the

subject and the objects are dissolved loosing their identities and

ownerships altogether.

 

But, if you look at it closely, The Happiness is The Happiness

whether one entertained apparent notion (Bhoga) or inherent notion

(Sukha) or just be THAT (Ananada). All the words are referring to

the same … but the first two have no clue of what IT really is!

Space is space and time is time whether one is congizant of the same

or not. So is The Hapiness … IT is what IT IS, nothing else.

 

Just words … nothing more …

 

Q: ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is

having our eye on other's welfare and benefit. This is true

sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING,

ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS

BENEFICIAL TO US?

 

Yes! Many other realized souls also advise the same to the worldly

men the same way!! Nobody can tell otherwise in all sanity when

the " good living " is in the context.

 

I am not well-versed on Swamiji's works. But, whatever few things I

have understood so far from his works is as follows. Swamiji

emphasises on all the good qualities when the context is relative

life. All the qualities such as non-violence, sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. are good for keeping healthy relations within

the society on one hand and are good tools to turn one's attention

from " Bhoga " toward " Sukha " - from worldly dependence toward

individual independence to actualize the spiritual practices to

start with. Swamiji refers to this as journey from Prapancha Drishti

toward Viveka Drishti. In Viveka Drishti, clear discrimination (Ref:

Sadhan Sudhaa Sindhu, Vibhaga Yoga) of the perceived dualities and

polarities in absolute clarity from the perceptional view point

itself is of paramount importance to reveal the ignorance hidden in

ones apparent knowledge. At this level, one has to see through ones

appreciation to realize what really is " good " and what really

is " bad " even from the perceptional standards. That is essential to

lead a " good living " . And, " good living " is essential for

spirituality. No arguments there.

 

The same Swamiji also continues further while educating our Viveka

Drishti toward Bhagavaddrishti ( " Sukha " toward " Ananda " ) to explain

how even the acts of Deep Trans (Samadhi) - let alone regular

Bhajans, Meditations, and other good living qualities - belong to

the dominion of the Insentient World, The Prakriti. No trace of ego

is enetertained at The Ananda, The Sentient, The Purusha (Ref:

Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Bhagavattattva). The Avinaashee Ras that he

explains in the next chapter is an eye opener from this perspective.

Only THAT is present and nothing else - not even Samadhi in that

Sahaja Sthiti.

 

Therefore, it depends on the context. A Bhogi needs to be educated

to become a Sukhi … and a Sukhi seeks Ananda naturally. In the first

phase, good qualities should be imbibed … in the second phase, even

that should be dropped. Interestingly, there is no sequence in these

phases … we, as seekers, often oscillate between the three states of

happiness (Bhoga, Sukha and Ananda) due to the inertia and ignorance

gravitated within. Till we purge the lump of ignorance and inertia

out we cannot help it. However, pragmatic appreciation (Yathaartha

Gnyaana) of what we do, how we do and who we are is essential.

Somehow, I am fascinated by the second phase more than the first.

That is all. It does not mean that the first phase is of any

insignificance.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

As our Moderators note Mike's post, I would also say yes, we are a

one big (happy) family. It is happy family because happiness comes

from our bigness. If we feel divided and shrunk, we don't feel

happy. Our bigness makes us integrally one and acts as if we are

one, and hence leaves no room for conflict inherent in division.

Such bigness manifests in well being of all because whoever does

whatever is for well being of one and all.

Secondly I want to build on what Shashikalaji said on Ego.

Ego is a " sense " (perception) of separation in our Consciousness-

Atman, which is ONE, and cannot be divided into many.

This sense is also called " me " or " I " , mistaken to be an

independently existing entity.

This " me " is only a thought in mind or a feeling/sensation

(pains/pleasures) in body that we identify with and say its " me "

or " I " . Once there is " me " , mineness ensues! If we don't identify

body as " me " just as toddlers don't, there cannot be " mineness " .

Mineness can be many but " me " is only one appearing as many

mineness. " me " is hiding place for mineness.

This " me " becomes stronger with external sense perception which we

call world " out there " and thus we say " not-I or not-me " . Thus not-I

or not-me gives more credibility to " me " and viceversa. Soon the

mere sense becomes reality.

Strangly enough, " me " is never our experience! When examined, our

experience seems to be of being conscious of thoughts and sensations

of forms/objects perceived/conceived only. In otherwords,

Consciousness is the only experience upon which we superimpose body-

mind-world. Then to this-body-mind we say " me " and the other-bodies-

world become not-me.

Experientially the body appears in mind as thought; the mind and the

world, both, appear as thoughts in Consciousness. This very

Consciousness is Atman, or Brahman or Reality or Pure Soul, or

Pure " Presence-I AM " or Existence which is conscious of itself

called SELF!

SELF is Sat-Chit experience(anubhutirupah). As such it is never

embodied, rather body-mind-world are in It, It permeates the entire

universe. Everything is in It as Itself.

IF one can see the truth of it, one gets liberated, JeevnMukta.

This is ONE TRUTH, all else is Bondage!

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

In response to the comment by the moderators, to my somewhat

truncated response, I have contemplated Gitaji for what was

underlying my thoughts.

 

'A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on.

 

Taking the verses from Gitaji posted below, and looking at a profile

of a family head who has gained these attributes:

 

The man of restraint is awake

In what is night for all beings;

That in which all beings awake

Is night for the wise one who sees. B.G. 2(69)

 

The highest Self of him who has

Conquered himself and is peaceful,

Is steadfast in cold, heat, pleasure,

Pain; and honor and dishonor. B.G. 6(7)

The yogi who is content in

Knowledge and discrimination,

With senses conquered–unto him

Earth, stone, and gold are all the same. B.G. 6(8)

He attains eminence who looks

The same on well-wishers, friends, foes,

Neutral to enemies and kin,

The righteous and the unrighteous. B.G. 6(9)

 

Would not get caught up with mob mentality, understanding his duty

to create a wise and functioning family.

Being at peace, with the Divine shining through, will do what is

right, will not show favoritism, see the worth in all, including the

members of ones family. (Not to be one eyed, about the family or its

members).

Not to waste effort, in trying to buy affection within the family

with trinkets and toys even if they are sports cars etc.

Understanding that one should not judge, as all is working out as it

will (Lila). But with compassion and love one can offer sound

guidance.

(These attributes are far more global than family, but actually are

we not one big family?)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor).

 

---------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

MIKE! Thank you! BEAUTIFULLY SAID. Are we not one big family? Thus

is our PRIMARY duty AS A " ONE BIG " FAMILY MAN - " Sarvabhootahite

rataah " (Gita 12:4)? That is - May we all be absorbed in the well

being of all. What is sadhak's understanding regarding this? Does

Gita speak at all of the smaller family nucleas that we think off as

family?

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Excellent Q by GT Moderators ! There are two ahams (egos) . One that

relates with " existence " of the self (I exist) . A Jnana Yogi

establishes himself into that only. That remains in all three yogis-

Jnana, Bhakti and Karma yogis, even after liberation/kalyaan.

 

There is " another " ego which is connecting " self " (pure soul) to

inert (to world - body/mind/intellect). It is always " worldly " ego.

I am body, I am Doctor, I am rich etc. This " me " gets destroyed with

destruction of " mine " immediately as a law. What remains behind is

pure unattached free " self " !

Jeevan Mukta. Liberated while living. Janaka, Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj, Vaashishtha, Kaak Bhusandi etc had become liberated before

merging with Brahma. Their binding ego had destroyed but " I exist "

this awareness remained. " I " thus remained there. But that " I "

always remained in " Equanimity " mode- unattached !

 

In fact 'desire', 'spriha' , 'mamata' and 'ahankaar' all four are

one element only-worldly ego ! Desire is gross. " Spriha " (worry for

basic needs for body ) is subtle than desire. " Mamata " (mineness) is

more subtle than " spriha " . Ego (me) is the subtlest among the four

names of same element. Hence in " effect " you renounce

fully " mamata " , you will become " egoless " and vice versa !

 

As regards reference of Gita/Swamiji - please refer pg 137 of Sadhak

Sanjeevani where Swamiji while commenting upon BG 2:71 had stated

exactly what I have written. Read particularly second last para on

pg 137 (Hindi) of Sadhak Sanjeevani !

 

When the body is not " mine " , then I don't need anything . Desire

for what? Worry for what? When nothing is " mine " then what remains

in " me " ?

" Me " in fact is always with reference to worldly possessions, body

etc. When " mine " is gone, very basis for " me " is gone !! What

remained behind is " I exist " - this awareness only ! Unattached,

Free, Liberated - me - I exist !!

 

A Karma yogi (Grihashtha-houeshold generally) strives to

renounce " mineness " - mamata by putting his/her body, belongings,

powers etc fully into the service of the world. By doing that

his/her " mineness " first gets destroyed and thereupon ego (me -ness)

gets purified of " worldly impact/connection " ! A Jnana Yogi first

eliminates " me-ness " (ahankaar- I am doer) by renouncing worldly

activities in favour of nature ( I am not body. I don't do

anything ) and thereupon his/her mamata gets renounced. A Bhakti

yogi changes his " me-ness " from worldly to Godly ( I am of God ) and

mineness from worldly to Godly (ONLY God is mine) and thus becomes

egoless and mamtaless !! All three thus renounce " connection with

inert- world - body/mind/intellect/activity/matter " . " I exist " -

this awareness remains in them till death ! They use body, mind,

intellect - but in " equanimous mode " - unattached !!

 

Thanks ! Nothing pleases me more than such Question / Answer

sessions. A really good Question !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

THANK YOU JEE JEE! (GT MODERATORS)

--------------------------------

Thanks for the wonderful questions …

 

How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit - the

ego?

Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family man?

Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there must

be certain duties of a Householder?

 

Let us see …

 

Q: How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit -

the ego?

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-triggered,

whether it is established within or borrowed from around, it has the

same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the ego. Anybody

can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes alcohol why

he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be always to

forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard. If you

analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to analyze), it

becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at least to

forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there. Whether a

person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance (e.g.

coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans, etc.),

and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

Its uniques aspect of the happiness is its independence of all the

media through which one attains it. Also, the happiness should be

ever present everywhere. Otherwise, how can one attain it

irresepctive of the media chosen? How can one attain the same every

time consistently? How can anybody attain it any time anywhere? This

reinforces the theory that it is present across time and space,

rather it transcends space and time and therefore everything else.

 

When it is independent of everything, why should one develop

dependence on anything else? When it is ever-present everywhere in

abundance, why every one seem to struggle to pursue the same as if

in a panick that there is a scarcity of the same? That remains the

puzzle for everyone.

 

The reason why we loose sight of the happiness is the corruption

smeared by the ego who comes back to action claiming ownership over

the erstwhile experience of the happiness. Knowing the un-ownable

nature of the happiness subconciously, the ego enforces its

authority further by making a belief that the happiness is hidden in

the objects and actions because it feels it can manipulate them.

Without its own knowledge, it becomes a slave to the same ideas,

actions and objects which are its slaves in its belief. That is the

weakness of the ego … dependence on external entities such as

objects, actions and ideas to believe the presence of the happiness.

It does not understand, rather it refuses to understand, that the

very same ideas, actions or objects could provide happiness only by

removing itself from its cognition by disconnecting it from the

mechanism of relating itself to the I-ness and Mine-ness in real.

Due to its ignorance of what is happening, it becomes addicted to

the very notions, actions and objects to " forget " itself.

 

As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH = HAPPINESS and ANAND = BLISS. In you response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators)

 

Q: Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family

man?

 

When one is established in CONTENTMENT and FREEDOM how can he ever

disturb others?! Even when one is working toward THAT, how can there

be exploitation of others? Compassion floods out when one is filled

with Freedom and Contentment; compassion oozes out even when one's

vision is fixed toward THAT. Such a person can never be

inconsiderate to his environment - be it the family, or colleagues,

or fellow travellers, or any stranger on the street. Compassion to

others is an eventuality, a natural eventuality ascertaining the

abundance of happiness within. Apparent lack of compassion is the

symptom of the inherent lack of contentment and freedom. One has to

dig deep through the apparent symptom toward the inherent root cause

to correct the corruption at deeper and deeper layers. THAT TO ME IS

THE SPIRITUALITY. Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's

beliefs is deceit and hypocracy.

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. All the disturbances of

an ocean is superficial … the deeper we dive, the more peaceful it

is … the abyss of all the bliss is inherent in our depths

where " what we think we do " as well as " what we think we are " are

both annihilated without traces.

 

Q: Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there

must be certain duties of a Householder?

 

The notions of sacrifice, forgiving, etc. have a corrupt notion

thanks to our ego. What is meant really to people in common sense is

that, a person forgoes his happiness for others' happiness in these

acts. That means, the ownership is strongly enseeded in such

notions. Typically, sacrifice would mean " Yes that is mine, but I do

not mind giving to the other man so that he can be happy with! " Same

way, forgiving typically means, " Yes the other fellow did something

wrong; but it is OK; let me be magnanimous enough not to react; poor

fellow he does not know what he is doing! " Do you see the strength

of ownership in a subtle camafluage here? That is dangerous for

spirituality.

 

In contentment, there is no room for ideas such as sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. Whatever a content man does looks like sacrifice

as he is not staking for any fruits from the actions that flow out

of him. Also, since whatever the environemnt does to him are lost in

the oblivion of the contentment within and hence cannot invoke any

reaction at all. Therefore, it sounds like he is forgiving

everything that is happening around. To him … there is no sacrifice

and no forgiving. For him, " there is nothing mine to aid others " .

Then how can there be a notion of sacrifice? For him, " nothing can

go wrong as there is nothing wrong in the first place " . Then how can

there be a notion of forgiving? Obviously both notions belong to the

others who harbor their respective egoes!

 

(THANK YOU ! WE SEE NOW THE POINT. ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS

EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is having our eye on other's

welfare and benefit. This is true sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO

SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING, ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG

I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS BENEFICIAL TO US? From Gita Talk

Moderators).

 

For social and personal upliftment, a softer ego is better than the

crude one, I agree. Notions such as sacrifice, forgiving, etc. are

very useful there. In spiritual upliftment, ego is not acceptable in

any form. When the ego itself is annihilated in spiritual

upliftment, all other upliftments are just natural within that. That

is the beauty of spirituality versus " good living " . " Good living "

(Samaja Dharma) requires many tenets and doctrines as it still

remains variant and circumstantial. Spirituality (Sanaatana Dharma),

on the other hand, is eteranl and unique. It transcends all the

variations as well as the variants catergorically. The happiness

(Ananda) is its abode.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

The moment one applies self conscience the question of evaluation of

the task sets in, i.e., result is viewed and assessed whether it is

a " good " or " bad " job to do. The assigned job has to be done without

any consideration to that aspect.Could the doubt be cleared by this

humble person ? Namaste..

 

 

 

 

Grihastha - Household is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity) which a

human being is subjected to. No other tapasya is as subtle, as

fierce and as consuming as is that of a household. One must always ,

therefore, remember this 'grihastha' is a school for one's

emancipation and address the same accordingly.

 

Barin Chatterjee

------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

Look at the family of Lord Shiva ! Lord Shiva sports garland of

skulls and serpent. Lord Shiva's vehicle is bull. Parvatiji on the

contrary is always wearing beautiful ornaments. Parvatiji's vehicle

is Lion. Their son, Lord Ganesha's vehicle is mouse. Their second

son Lord Karthikeya's vehicle is peacock. The serpent and mouse are

by birth fierce enemies. Mouse is the food of serpent. Peacock and

serpent are enemies. Peacock kills serpent. Lion and bull are

enemies. Bull is food for lion. Bitter enemies of each other. All in

one family. But, all live in perfect harmony and comfortably.

 

JUST AS: In Lord Shiva's family all members have different and

contrasting natures, still there is unity in the family.

 

SIMILARLY: All members of any household have different natures, and

different perspectives, and still there can be unity.

 

How? Each member should look at his role and duty only and not at

other's role and duty. One should always strive to give pleasure to

other. " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST " - should be the 'bhava'

(inner expression) of a Grihastha.

 

A grihastha in order to provide pleasure to other family members,

must renounce his own pleasures. That renunciation in fact is true

austerity ! It is law that without renouncing your own pleasure, you

can't provide happiness to others.

 

1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures- if you do these, you have lived

well in the grihashtha.

 

Sadhaks should remember that it is in Grihastha only- each and every

household, no exceptions- that you get practical opportunities to

get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual likings

and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha) and learn fine points of

real " karma yoga " and " bhakti yoga " . Grihashtha Ashram (Household)

is the most important and most beneficial phase of each human being.

One must therefore make best use of it. It is in grihastha, seeds of

of your old age are sown.

 

Above all, in Grihastha it is the utmost duty of a male is to see

God in his parents. If a grihashtha merely obeys his parents , his

life becomes divine. His old age becomes ideal.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

" O descendant of Bharata, at that time Krishna, smiling, in the midst

of both the armies, spoke the following words to the grief-stricken

Arjuna. " B.G. 2:10

 

The 'Smile of Krishna', that is pregnant with, Divine Love,

Compassion, and Wisdom.

 

If one is of a nature to have these qualities in the household,

then peace and love will prevail.

 

Being detached from the Ego Wars, will give one the ability to be of

real value to all within the family sphere, (and those who know you).

 

A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on. (PLEASE ELABORATE ON THE QUALITIES - FROM

GITA TALK MODERATORS)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor)

--------------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally. Doing happens while

doer disappears! At all stages and in all roles duties will be

performed within the guidelines of Dharma as appropriate for the

circumstances one is placed, because one is Loving what has to be

done.

Without feeling such Love, duty feels like forced upon one, and

becomes chores, and boring! With Love, it is not so much as duty,

that one has to do, but rather its a Joy to do it.

So the real issue boils down to " what stops such Love to flow

freely? " Not realizing what I truly AM.

However, we can be guided by wisdom of Gita to ultimately realize

our true nature by performing duties in the best possible ways we

know, with devotion, with Love and without any expectations or

favors. Doing in such a way is its own reward, Yoga itself,

incorporating Yogah Karmashu Kaushalam principle of Gita

So as a householder with family, one takes care of those who are

entrusted to one by God. with an attitude of seeing the family as

gift from God, and serving them is to serve God. That is all!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Grihastha is the feeder to all other ashrams. Saints also get food

from households only. The beauty of grihastha ashram is that " you

can't run away " from your duties. You must do your duties- else

shatterred home ! A sadhu if he confronts with something

unpleasant , he will simply take his kamandal and walk away from the

scene. But a household can not ! That is " austerity " !

 

Rule of Grihastha is simple- Serve, Serve and serve ! Do your duty !

It is a law that service/duty destroys " mamata " . It is also a law

that if mamata is destroyed, ego gets destroyed automatically. You

instantly realise God if mamata (mine) is destroyed. What else ego

consists except " me " ? Where is the " me " when " mine " is

destroyed? " Me " (ego) and " Mine " ( mamata) are the chains which bind

a human being to the world. From this only Raag and Dvesha emerge !

Household is the place where you can easily -simply by serving the

family-destroy them decisively and achieve the very purpose for

which the human life has been given to you !

 

" Nirmamo Nirahankarasya sa shanti madi gachhati " - He who has

become " minenessless " and " egoless " gets permanent Peace and

liberation.

 

As simple as that !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

(Shashikalaji, ANY REFERENCE? CAN ONE NOT BE FREE OF MAMTA (free

of mine-ness)BUT STILL HAVE SENSE OF I-NESS (EGOISM)? GT

MODERATORS)

 

--------------------------

Friends

1.Arjuna was a Gruhastha, a family man and a householder.The

teachings applicable to Arjuna is applicable to

Gruhastha or householder.

2.The difference between Gruhastha and Sannyasi is difference in

objects of desire or attachment. King Janak devoid of attachment

was better and spiritually advanced than many Cannabis.

3.As rightly mentioned by Shri Naga Narayana the only duty of human

beings is to be happy. It is the substance,core and outcome of all

knowledge and efforts.

4.God is also called 'SAT CHIT ANAND' meaning mind/heart filled

with indestructible/permanent joy.Such state is not dependent on

others.

5.Happiness or Joy cannot be at other's cost or expense.

6.Sacrifice and happiness are contrary. Sacrifice will not provide

happiness. (KINDLY EXPLAIN - FROM GITA TALK MODERATOR)

7.According to Gita ,the only duty is to unite with God because that

alone can be source of happiness.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

KAMA--ARTHA--MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

The 4 steps Grahastha need to do.

But the Grahasta has to do and live as per sastras that Bagavan

says. Grahasth has lot of duties on shoulder as Kunthi had. But

Kunthi did well.

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

duty=dharama ?

Family or no family, the only dharma of a man is to unite with God.

1.Accept God is mine and family belongs to God. So serve the family

considering it as a gift given to you by God, with the capacity

given to you by God, with the tools given to you by God.

 

2.Choose any path-gyaan yoga, bhakti yoga or karma yoga. The common

element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme is the most important.

Many hard working people think that they are following karma yoga,

but they take all responsibily on themselves, they worry, they

insist on certain outcome, they trust their own strength, to me they

are not Yogi.

 

yoga-sthah kuru karmani

sangam tyaktva dhananjaya

siddhy-asiddhyoh samo bhutva

samatvam yoga ucyate

 

Establish yr self in Yoga and perform yr duties,abandon all

attachment to success or failure. Such evenness of mind is called

yoga.....

 

Do whatever God wants you to do while reaiming established in yoga.

with Love,

a sadhika

 

Sadhna Karigar

-----------------------

 

 

Hi,

According to scriptures, 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of

gratitude. Human being is bound to do duties at various levels of

his life i.e Saisavam, Balyam, Kaumaram and Vardhakyam. In Kaumaram

normaly one takes up life of a householder or Grihastha. A

householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha. To fully live

the life of a human the operation manual called Gita is available

for reference at any level for us.

 

with love, krishnadasan.

----------------------------

 

Dear Sadhak,

Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined elsewhere. One is not to analyze it, nor aspire for it.

Whatever comes in the way that has to be performed with all

sincerity, without having any interest in the result. One has been

given only the right of execution of the assigned work, neither the

cause of it nor the effect.(Karmanye ebo te adhikara, kodachono

faleshu ma, In Gita-II.47).

Option of becoming a Family man was also assigned which has its own

format. The format has also to be strictly followed, as it comes in

the way, but never one can apply his self conscience about

evaluation of the quality of the work assigned. (karmasanginam

agynang budhivedang na jonoyet bidwan jukto sarba karmani sadacharan

jojayet...Gita III-26)

 

BARIN CHATTERJEE

 

Warm regards

--------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR BARINJI,

Kindly explain what you mean in the last paragraph ... " never one can

apply his self conscience....... " .

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

--------------------------

There is ONLY ONE DUTY for all irrespective of what they do ...

BEING HAPPY!

 

As Shankara says,

 

Jatilo mundee lunchita keshah kashaayaambra bahukrita veshah |

Pashyannapi cha na pashyati mudhah udaranimittam bahukritaveshah ||

 

everyone has to do something or the other. One claims to be a house-

holder having no clue of what is house and what is holding. So is a

Sanyasi equally clueless of what Sanyasa means. One may ask, what is

the basis to doubt of their knowledge upon what they are doing?

Happiness, my dear friend. One who is unhappy does not where he

is ... because he does not know what he is doing ... because he does

not know who he is ...

 

Whether you are happy with what you are doing depends on your

intellect. Whether you are happy with what you are depends on your

wisdom. The question really is ... whether you want to be happy with

what you are doing ... or with what you are.

 

If you want to be happy with what you do ... many questions

follow ... how is my " doing " related to happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary as I see ... then, how much " doing " is

required to maintain the derivative happiness?

 

The " doing " is multitude and variant ... then how many " doings "

should I do to derive effective happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary, multitude and variant, how can I ever say

that the " happiness-es " derived from my various " doings " is really

the happiness?

 

Now the first question looms around stronger ... has the " doing "

anything to do with the happiness at all?!

 

I you want you to be happy with what you are ... then who cares what

you do? Stick with what you think you are.

 

Then comes the question, " Am I the one that I think that I am? "

 

Then, my dear friend, the clock starts ticking for you toward the

real happiness ... because you will find that you are not whatever

you thought as, perpetually. You will discover that all your

thoughts of " what you are " were in fact your " doings " and

never " you " . Then you may also realize that your happiness were

perpetually consumed by these parasites ... your identities ...

your " doings " and your " are-s " . As far as we are cognizant of what

we " are " and what we " do " , we are OK ... we can interrogate them

further.

 

Relating " what we do " and " what we are " to the happiness is an

absurd baseless logic ... it is called " Kaakataaleeya Nyaaya " . A

crow sits on a palm tree. Palm fruit falls down. The observer says,

the palm fruit falls down when a crow sits on the tree. The observer

beleives that there is a relation having not given any attention to

what relation means! Being happy is neither in " what we do " nor

in " what we think we are " . Both are the two faces of the same coing -

IDENTITY, the ego. In fact, if you were ever happy, my dear friend,

it was ONLY WHEN you had kept this coin away in your pocket.

 

Therefore, whatever you are and whatever you do is OK as far you are

happy. Because your happiness indicates the absence of the true

culprit - the ego. If we stick to the happiness as such, we will

then realize that " what is needed is to throw away this fellow, the

ego. Then what I do does not matter ... and what I am does not

matter ... I am happy as I should be! " . In my opinion, that is

spirituality.

 

Therefore, I see only one rule for spirituality irrespective of what

we are and what we do ... being happy ... being happy at the

core ... being nothing but happiness as such.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

---------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR NAGA NARAYANA JI, Yes! Being happy at the core is key ! One

doubt arises is can one be happy at another's expense as a

householder/family man? Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides

being happy, there must be certain duties of a Householder. Kindly

explain .. how one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true

culprit - the ego?

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

---------------------------

Interesting question......

 

It is all about knowing your true self.........while playing the

role whatever it may be........

Start with positive thought then to Happy thought and try to shift

to no thoughts....

 

As a householder even reaching to the stage of keeping happy

thoughts all the time works very fine and

gives great results and then the ultimate may happen too....while

the role of a householder goes on

perfectly, joyously........

 

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

Duties of a Gruastha

 

Very simple I believe. I know I don't write much because I am afraid

I may offend some people as I have my own strong views as well.

 

It is nice that you used the word DUTY. Life is a duty and one has

to understand the difference between duty and Maya. Maya attaches

you to the physical manifestation, duty is done as an entity and not

shrouded in Maya. As a father, mother, brother son, sister etc one

performs duty. Thus Moksha is easier to attain.

 

Happy to call this my 2 cents.

shashi dave

------------------------------

SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES

 

- only dharma of a man is to unite with God

- Accept God is mine and family belongs to God.

- Follow any path, common element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme

- 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of gratitude.

- householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha

- operation manual called Gita is ever available to us

- Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined

- Duty is to be performed with all sincerity, without attachment to

the result

- Being Happy at the core

- Know your true self, all else is a role

- From positive to happy to no thoughts!

- role of a householder goes on perfectly, joyously

- Life is a duty and one has to understand the difference between

duty and Maya

- Householder life is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity)

- Attitude must be - " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST "

- 1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures

- When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally.

- get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual

likings and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha)

- utmost duty of a male is to see God in his parents

- become free of mamta and ahamtaa by serve, serve, serve.

- Free of I-ness and Mine-ness.

- DHARMA - ARTHA - KAMA- MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

 

 

 

 

-------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

 

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Dear Sadhakas, Namakar

 

Please enlighten me, regarding what are the duties of a Gruhastha

(family man, householder), according to Geetaji.

 

....Gee Waman

-------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Dear sadaks,

Scarifies--When Sri Rama asked to give away his throne to Bharat,

Puraan says HIS face was like just flowered lotus and brightness on

HIS face. The message was from Kaykeyi (Step mother) not from

Dasarath who actually said. Sri Rama never even verified the order

from Dasarath. Means sacrifies not done with benefit or done

knowingly (Sri Rama was not knowing the act was sacrifies). The best

part was when Sri Rama returned from forest HE first went to the

hunch back lady who spoilt Kaikeyi mind. DEAR SADAKS, kaikeyi mind

got corupted because of desire (which is ongoing discussion) of her

son. There is a saying Do Dharma with one hand let not the other

hand know. Concept of Sacrifies. A small iota thought of the action

in mind is enough to bring Ego in sacrifies.

 

Jesus crucified knows body soul are differant. If someone feels

happy in crucifing the body HE was silent. HE said, " Nothing happens

without the will of my Father " . So the action of sacrifies was not

owned by Jesus, the action owned by HIS father. Before dying HE

said, " Oh father in heavens let them be spared as they know not what

they are doing " . So the action of the crucifer was also disowned by

Jesus, which in turn disowned in mind level.

Five Bala Pandavas was slined by Aswathama after the war. Sri

Krishna and Arjuna catches Aswathama brings to Kunthi. She says let

Aswathama go since he is Guru`s son. Kunthi sacrifies was a concept.

Sadaks know Baktha Gora pot maker. His enimies broke his pots to

bits whitch he was carrying by cart for sale. He started picking the

bits from floor. The enemies asked whether he was mad. He replied

the bits mat hurt the passer by, so he is clearing the way. Pots was

sacrifice and picking denotes forgiveness. Both action were not even

in mind level Same Gora due to quarrel with his wife who said not to

touch her there after. Gora was NO way different from daily

household and in showing affection to his wife, but remained

untouched living in same bed room. Just a word from his wife in

anger not to touch her, he sacrificed his years of life which we

call it happiness.

 

Buddha walking for bath. Some said abusive language. He actually

forgot then and there, but his disciples reminded him. Buddha said

when did that happened. Mind level forgiveness which not owned. So

was Sri Rama, when some one asked forgivness for their misbehaviour

HE used to say " When it happened " . We store everything in our mind

to full extent, leaving no place for Bagavan WHO keeps on saying

leave it to ME (Surrender). Same thing said, in Christianity, " Empty

thyself, I will fill it " . We wont empty for Sri Krishna to come in,

still I hear from some sadaks, " Is God gone on holidays when I am

sufferings " .

 

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

On Ashokji's comments:

It is equally possible that acts of sacrifice and that of empathy

both can boost ego or both may not necessarily boost ego, depending

on the inner postures while acting.

As I understand it, Happiness is not contrary to anything or anyone,

as in Happiness there is " nobody " that is happy, is totally devoid

of " me " . It just is That, Happiness!

Our true nature, upon realization, is experienced as Happiness-

Bliss itself. It is welcoming Presence in us which welcomes

sacrifices with joy. It says " yes " to everything arising/appearing

in it, the reason why they arise/appear in the first place.

Sometimes doing things for others can also strengthen ego if in

thoughts " doer " creeps up while doing.

Forgiveness is the greatest virtue in practical life, sure. But in

forgiving if " forgiver " , disguised " me " shows up to forgive

the " other " , it may not make us peaceful, but can boost ego.

Forgiving, to me, is to overlook, or look over ego in others and

give understanding. It is to see that the person is not bad but

his/her acts are so, due to ignorance.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

 

Raam! Raam!!

 

We are all grateful to GT Moderators for sheer service being

rendered to humanity through management of this divine web site.

With reference to the topic under discussion , however, may I state

that for the first time I saw them agreeing to a totally wrong

statements. Since it is very dangerous from 20000 + sadhak point

of view hence I must point out. Consider the following:

 

" As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES.. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH AS HAPPINESS and ANAND AS BLISS. In your response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators) "

 

What does it clarify? How spirituality is bi-modal in nature? HOW

CAN EGO ITSELF RELINQUISH ITS CHERISHED I -ness or mineness? Answer

me ! How can Ego relinquish itself ? What are natural agents,

substantial agents, social agents, psychological agents ? What was

wrong in considering Happiness and Sukh as worldly and Anand as

Bliss to be the goal of each of us? Why we should equate them so

casually? How can an inert thing like TRUE FREEDOM " itself " empower

itself to execute on its own ........?

 

Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's beliefs is deceit and

hypocracy. ( WHAT BEHAVIOUR ? WHOSE BELIEF? ) /

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. ( WHY ONE SHOULD NOT

BECOME SPECIFIC? WHY ONE SHOULD NOT BECOME SADHAK? HOW ANYTHING WE

DO IS OK? DRUG ADDICTS ARE OK? )

 

Shyama C

-------------------------------

Radhey Radhey

 

Sadhak Sushilji ! I am happy you covered yourself quickly against a

difficult note which you wrote that " Sacrifice and Happiness are

contrary " . I agree fully with your explanation except Sr No 1. It is

Sr No 2 till the end which is absolutely correct. The fact is that

every sacrifice ( renunciation) instantly produces happiness.

INSTANTLY - even if that renunciation is of body waste. It is LAW !

That it boosts ego, etc they are all craps. NO RENUNCIATION CAN EVER

FUEL EGO ! Every renunciation reduces Ego ! There is no substance in

classifying Bhoga, Happiness (sukha) and Ananda and then eloquently

concluding - " Just words....nothing more " . " If you look closely -

Happiness is happiness " !! Sheer twist of words and nothing ,

nothing more than that ! They are not just words , there are

distinctions between them as wide as are south and north poles.

 

You have not looked closely at all Mr Naga Narain. Bhoga is

temporary. Bhoga is relative. ANANDA is absolute, self proven. Dont

say so loosely whatever comes to mind. Think deeply. Have you never

heard the word PEACE ? If yes, why did not you talk about it? What

is happiness ? Know Mr Naga and accept it humbly that- Happiness is

PEACE !! Says Gita - ASHANTASYA KUTAH SUKHAM ? ( Where is happiness

to him , who is not peaceful.? ) Dont just say for the sake of

saying.

 

But I have a request to make to GT Moderators. Please insist that

there is RELEVANCE to the Q asked in the response. Sushilji ,

Vyasji, Mike, Pratapji , Jee Jee Shashikalajee all talked

about " Duties of Household " and then came finer points of

discussion. Did Mr Naga Narain talk a single word reg the Question

of Mr GeeWaman? This is not how the deliberations become focussed

and fruitful.

 

Radhey Radhey

Nisha Chatterji

--------------------------------

To GT Moderators

 

Re-Read this again and kindly explain:

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-

triggered,whether it is established within or borrowed from around,

it has the same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the

ego. Anybody can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes

alcohol why he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be

always to forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard.

If you analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to

analyze), it becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at

least to forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there.

Whether a person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance

(e.g.coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans,

etc.),and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

WHAT DOES IT MEAN ? IT MEANS THAT IF YOU ARE CONSUMING DRUGS , (

substance triggered) - so long as under the influence of drugs you

are forgetting I- ness and Me- ness , you have established yourself

to the HIGHEST ANANDA level and have achieved the goal of human

birth ??? WHAT EXACTLY IS MEANT BY THIS?

 

And GT Moderators are thanking ?? along with boldly reference to

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj !!!

 

No ! I dont want to be a party to such ecstacies! Sorry. I regret I

became member of this group.

 

Audrey Rodrigues

--------------------------------

Hare Hare

 

Recent deliberations raise more Questions than answers. How can any

SADHAK boldly state that BHOGA/SUKHA/ANANDA are same thing, only a

matter of attitude, the effect is the same !!! Incomprehensible !

 

Statements such as same Ananda gets converted into happiness/bhoga

etc. are taking us no where in this WORD PLAY. The fact is that

there is huge difference in EXPERIENCE/ VERY NATURE/ VERY ELEMENTARY

of these elements. One is relative,transitory, unnatural, unreal and

another is ABSOLUTE and NATURAL, and real. What has attitude got

to do with it is totally unclear? and mainly what does it have to

do with the Question of Mr Gee Waman?

 

Bandook Singh Rathod

 

--------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Friends

I refer to the Gita Talk Moderator's request for explanation on my

statement 'Sacrifice and happiness are contrary'

1.Mr Naga Narayan has explained it correctly and adequately that the

notion or act of sacrifices boosts ego.

2.Act done with compassion and empathy for the benefit of other

will not boost ego and the act itself will be joy.

3.Sacrifice assumes forgoing something whereas in reality the

happiness by doing something for others is much more.

4.Sacrifice ,in a way ,focuses attention on other whereas happiness

focuses on self.

5.Sacrifice assumes owning and parting with something valuable

whereas for a sadhak nothing is owned and nothing is parted with.

 

If anything done which does not boosts ego it is ok but mind is vey

subtle

 

There is fundamentally no difference of opinion in importance of

sacrifice but one has to careful about it's impact on ego.

 

Mr Naga Narayan has also mentioned Forgiveness.

 

I am willing to forgive now is the first step in forgiving. Only

saying 'I forgive now completely and unconditionaly' is not

sufficient.Major issues and problems can be resolved by one

statement 'I am willing to forgive now' It can be made a daily 5-10

minutes routine every night.

 

But even more important is ' I seek forgiveness now' This single

sentence can work miracle.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

------------------------------

 

Q: SUKH = HAPPINESS; and ANAND = BLISS. In your response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand.

 

Normally, the scriptures refer to the same in three levels - Ananda,

Sukha and Bhoga. Though they all address the same experience, the

attitude behind the experience differ dramatically depending on the

ignorance and inertia hoarded in an individual.

 

Ananda is the state of bliss where there are no attitudes - nobody

to claim the ownership of the experience. As soon as an owner (the

ego) crops up, the absolute experience becomes a memory in the

owners perception. The recall of the absolute bliss is often

referred to as Sukha. When an external agent is given the authority

over the same experience - the belief that the joy is inherent in

the objects of pleasures - it is called Bhoga.

 

In other words,

 

Bhoga – The objects are let to own the (notion of) happiness – the

ego owns the anticipation of the experience thereupon. The

individual craves for the availability of the objects of pleasures

and enterst the whirlpool of miseries.

Sukha – The subject owns the (memory of) happiness - the ego owns

the belief of enjoyership. The individual elates in his own prowess

to command the experience. On the positive side, it allows the ego

to pause to wonder and ponder `what is the nature of the happiness

and what exactly is its focus?'

Ananda – The Happiness remains as The Absolute where both the

subject and the objects are dissolved loosing their identities and

ownerships altogether.

 

But, if you look at it closely, The Happiness is The Happiness

whether one entertained apparent notion (Bhoga) or inherent notion

(Sukha) or just be THAT (Ananada). All the words are referring to

the same … but the first two have no clue of what IT really is!

Space is space and time is time whether one is congizant of the same

or not. So is The Hapiness … IT is what IT IS, nothing else.

 

Just words … nothing more …

 

Q: ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is

having our eye on other's welfare and benefit. This is true

sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING,

ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS

BENEFICIAL TO US?

 

Yes! Many other realized souls also advise the same to the worldly

men the same way!! Nobody can tell otherwise in all sanity when

the " good living " is in the context.

 

I am not well-versed on Swamiji's works. But, whatever few things I

have understood so far from his works is as follows. Swamiji

emphasises on all the good qualities when the context is relative

life. All the qualities such as non-violence, sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. are good for keeping healthy relations within

the society on one hand and are good tools to turn one's attention

from " Bhoga " toward " Sukha " - from worldly dependence toward

individual independence to actualize the spiritual practices to

start with. Swamiji refers to this as journey from Prapancha Drishti

toward Viveka Drishti. In Viveka Drishti, clear discrimination (Ref:

Sadhan Sudhaa Sindhu, Vibhaga Yoga) of the perceived dualities and

polarities in absolute clarity from the perceptional view point

itself is of paramount importance to reveal the ignorance hidden in

ones apparent knowledge. At this level, one has to see through ones

appreciation to realize what really is " good " and what really

is " bad " even from the perceptional standards. That is essential to

lead a " good living " . And, " good living " is essential for

spirituality. No arguments there.

 

The same Swamiji also continues further while educating our Viveka

Drishti toward Bhagavaddrishti ( " Sukha " toward " Ananda " ) to explain

how even the acts of Deep Trans (Samadhi) - let alone regular

Bhajans, Meditations, and other good living qualities - belong to

the dominion of the Insentient World, The Prakriti. No trace of ego

is enetertained at The Ananda, The Sentient, The Purusha (Ref:

Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Bhagavattattva). The Avinaashee Ras that he

explains in the next chapter is an eye opener from this perspective.

Only THAT is present and nothing else - not even Samadhi in that

Sahaja Sthiti.

 

Therefore, it depends on the context. A Bhogi needs to be educated

to become a Sukhi … and a Sukhi seeks Ananda naturally. In the first

phase, good qualities should be imbibed … in the second phase, even

that should be dropped. Interestingly, there is no sequence in these

phases … we, as seekers, often oscillate between the three states of

happiness (Bhoga, Sukha and Ananda) due to the inertia and ignorance

gravitated within. Till we purge the lump of ignorance and inertia

out we cannot help it. However, pragmatic appreciation (Yathaartha

Gnyaana) of what we do, how we do and who we are is essential.

Somehow, I am fascinated by the second phase more than the first.

That is all. It does not mean that the first phase is of any

insignificance.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

As our Moderators note Mike's post, I would also say yes, we are a

one big (happy) family. It is happy family because happiness comes

from our bigness. If we feel divided and shrunk, we don't feel

happy. Our bigness makes us integrally one and acts as if we are

one, and hence leaves no room for conflict inherent in division.

Such bigness manifests in well being of all because whoever does

whatever is for well being of one and all.

Secondly I want to build on what Shashikalaji said on Ego.

Ego is a " sense " (perception) of separation in our Consciousness-

Atman, which is ONE, and cannot be divided into many.

This sense is also called " me " or " I " , mistaken to be an

independently existing entity.

This " me " is only a thought in mind or a feeling/sensation

(pains/pleasures) in body that we identify with and say its " me "

or " I " . Once there is " me " , mineness ensues! If we don't identify

body as " me " just as toddlers don't, there cannot be " mineness " .

Mineness can be many but " me " is only one appearing as many

mineness. " me " is hiding place for mineness.

This " me " becomes stronger with external sense perception which we

call world " out there " and thus we say " not-I or not-me " . Thus not-I

or not-me gives more credibility to " me " and viceversa. Soon the

mere sense becomes reality.

Strangly enough, " me " is never our experience! When examined, our

experience seems to be of being conscious of thoughts and sensations

of forms/objects perceived/conceived only. In otherwords,

Consciousness is the only experience upon which we superimpose body-

mind-world. Then to this-body-mind we say " me " and the other-bodies-

world become not-me.

Experientially the body appears in mind as thought; the mind and the

world, both, appear as thoughts in Consciousness. This very

Consciousness is Atman, or Brahman or Reality or Pure Soul, or

Pure " Presence-I AM " or Existence which is conscious of itself

called SELF!

SELF is Sat-Chit experience(anubhutirupah). As such it is never

embodied, rather body-mind-world are in It, It permeates the entire

universe. Everything is in It as Itself.

IF one can see the truth of it, one gets liberated, JeevnMukta.

This is ONE TRUTH, all else is Bondage!

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

In response to the comment by the moderators, to my somewhat

truncated response, I have contemplated Gitaji for what was

underlying my thoughts.

 

'A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on.

 

Taking the verses from Gitaji posted below, and looking at a profile

of a family head who has gained these attributes:

 

The man of restraint is awake

In what is night for all beings;

That in which all beings awake

Is night for the wise one who sees. B.G. 2(69)

 

The highest Self of him who has

Conquered himself and is peaceful,

Is steadfast in cold, heat, pleasure,

Pain; and honor and dishonor. B.G. 6(7)

The yogi who is content in

Knowledge and discrimination,

With senses conquered–unto him

Earth, stone, and gold are all the same. B.G. 6(8)

He attains eminence who looks

The same on well-wishers, friends, foes,

Neutral to enemies and kin,

The righteous and the unrighteous. B.G. 6(9)

 

Would not get caught up with mob mentality, understanding his duty

to create a wise and functioning family.

Being at peace, with the Divine shining through, will do what is

right, will not show favoritism, see the worth in all, including the

members of ones family. (Not to be one eyed, about the family or its

members).

Not to waste effort, in trying to buy affection within the family

with trinkets and toys even if they are sports cars etc.

Understanding that one should not judge, as all is working out as it

will (Lila). But with compassion and love one can offer sound

guidance.

(These attributes are far more global than family, but actually are

we not one big family?)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor).

 

---------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

MIKE! Thank you! BEAUTIFULLY SAID. Are we not one big family? Thus

is our PRIMARY duty AS A " ONE BIG " FAMILY MAN - " Sarvabhootahite

rataah " (Gita 12:4)? That is - May we all be absorbed in the well

being of all. What is sadhak's understanding regarding this? Does

Gita speak at all of the smaller family nucleas that we think off as

family?

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Excellent Q by GT Moderators ! There are two ahams (egos) . One that

relates with " existence " of the self (I exist) . A Jnana Yogi

establishes himself into that only. That remains in all three yogis-

Jnana, Bhakti and Karma yogis, even after liberation/kalyaan.

 

There is " another " ego which is connecting " self " (pure soul) to

inert (to world - body/mind/intellect). It is always " worldly " ego.

I am body, I am Doctor, I am rich etc. This " me " gets destroyed with

destruction of " mine " immediately as a law. What remains behind is

pure unattached free " self " !

Jeevan Mukta. Liberated while living. Janaka, Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj, Vaashishtha, Kaak Bhusandi etc had become liberated before

merging with Brahma. Their binding ego had destroyed but " I exist "

this awareness remained. " I " thus remained there. But that " I "

always remained in " Equanimity " mode- unattached !

 

In fact 'desire', 'spriha' , 'mamata' and 'ahankaar' all four are

one element only-worldly ego ! Desire is gross. " Spriha " (worry for

basic needs for body ) is subtle than desire. " Mamata " (mineness) is

more subtle than " spriha " . Ego (me) is the subtlest among the four

names of same element. Hence in " effect " you renounce

fully " mamata " , you will become " egoless " and vice versa !

 

As regards reference of Gita/Swamiji - please refer pg 137 of Sadhak

Sanjeevani where Swamiji while commenting upon BG 2:71 had stated

exactly what I have written. Read particularly second last para on

pg 137 (Hindi) of Sadhak Sanjeevani !

 

When the body is not " mine " , then I don't need anything . Desire

for what? Worry for what? When nothing is " mine " then what remains

in " me " ?

" Me " in fact is always with reference to worldly possessions, body

etc. When " mine " is gone, very basis for " me " is gone !! What

remained behind is " I exist " - this awareness only ! Unattached,

Free, Liberated - me - I exist !!

 

A Karma yogi (Grihashtha-houeshold generally) strives to

renounce " mineness " - mamata by putting his/her body, belongings,

powers etc fully into the service of the world. By doing that

his/her " mineness " first gets destroyed and thereupon ego (me -ness)

gets purified of " worldly impact/connection " ! A Jnana Yogi first

eliminates " me-ness " (ahankaar- I am doer) by renouncing worldly

activities in favour of nature ( I am not body. I don't do

anything ) and thereupon his/her mamata gets renounced. A Bhakti

yogi changes his " me-ness " from worldly to Godly ( I am of God ) and

mineness from worldly to Godly (ONLY God is mine) and thus becomes

egoless and mamtaless !! All three thus renounce " connection with

inert- world - body/mind/intellect/activity/matter " . " I exist " -

this awareness remains in them till death ! They use body, mind,

intellect - but in " equanimous mode " - unattached !!

 

Thanks ! Nothing pleases me more than such Question / Answer

sessions. A really good Question !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

THANK YOU JEE JEE! (GT MODERATORS)

--------------------------------

Thanks for the wonderful questions …

 

How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit - the

ego?

Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family man?

Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there must

be certain duties of a Householder?

 

Let us see …

 

Q: How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit -

the ego?

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-triggered,

whether it is established within or borrowed from around, it has the

same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the ego. Anybody

can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes alcohol why

he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be always to

forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard. If you

analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to analyze), it

becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at least to

forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there. Whether a

person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance (e.g.

coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans, etc.),

and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

Its uniques aspect of the happiness is its independence of all the

media through which one attains it. Also, the happiness should be

ever present everywhere. Otherwise, how can one attain it

irresepctive of the media chosen? How can one attain the same every

time consistently? How can anybody attain it any time anywhere? This

reinforces the theory that it is present across time and space,

rather it transcends space and time and therefore everything else.

 

When it is independent of everything, why should one develop

dependence on anything else? When it is ever-present everywhere in

abundance, why every one seem to struggle to pursue the same as if

in a panick that there is a scarcity of the same? That remains the

puzzle for everyone.

 

The reason why we loose sight of the happiness is the corruption

smeared by the ego who comes back to action claiming ownership over

the erstwhile experience of the happiness. Knowing the un-ownable

nature of the happiness subconciously, the ego enforces its

authority further by making a belief that the happiness is hidden in

the objects and actions because it feels it can manipulate them.

Without its own knowledge, it becomes a slave to the same ideas,

actions and objects which are its slaves in its belief. That is the

weakness of the ego … dependence on external entities such as

objects, actions and ideas to believe the presence of the happiness.

It does not understand, rather it refuses to understand, that the

very same ideas, actions or objects could provide happiness only by

removing itself from its cognition by disconnecting it from the

mechanism of relating itself to the I-ness and Mine-ness in real.

Due to its ignorance of what is happening, it becomes addicted to

the very notions, actions and objects to " forget " itself.

 

As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH = HAPPINESS and ANAND = BLISS. In you response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators)

 

Q: Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family

man?

 

When one is established in CONTENTMENT and FREEDOM how can he ever

disturb others?! Even when one is working toward THAT, how can there

be exploitation of others? Compassion floods out when one is filled

with Freedom and Contentment; compassion oozes out even when one's

vision is fixed toward THAT. Such a person can never be

inconsiderate to his environment - be it the family, or colleagues,

or fellow travellers, or any stranger on the street. Compassion to

others is an eventuality, a natural eventuality ascertaining the

abundance of happiness within. Apparent lack of compassion is the

symptom of the inherent lack of contentment and freedom. One has to

dig deep through the apparent symptom toward the inherent root cause

to correct the corruption at deeper and deeper layers. THAT TO ME IS

THE SPIRITUALITY. Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's

beliefs is deceit and hypocracy.

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. All the disturbances of

an ocean is superficial … the deeper we dive, the more peaceful it

is … the abyss of all the bliss is inherent in our depths

where " what we think we do " as well as " what we think we are " are

both annihilated without traces.

 

Q: Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there

must be certain duties of a Householder?

 

The notions of sacrifice, forgiving, etc. have a corrupt notion

thanks to our ego. What is meant really to people in common sense is

that, a person forgoes his happiness for others' happiness in these

acts. That means, the ownership is strongly enseeded in such

notions. Typically, sacrifice would mean " Yes that is mine, but I do

not mind giving to the other man so that he can be happy with! " Same

way, forgiving typically means, " Yes the other fellow did something

wrong; but it is OK; let me be magnanimous enough not to react; poor

fellow he does not know what he is doing! " Do you see the strength

of ownership in a subtle camafluage here? That is dangerous for

spirituality.

 

In contentment, there is no room for ideas such as sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. Whatever a content man does looks like sacrifice

as he is not staking for any fruits from the actions that flow out

of him. Also, since whatever the environemnt does to him are lost in

the oblivion of the contentment within and hence cannot invoke any

reaction at all. Therefore, it sounds like he is forgiving

everything that is happening around. To him … there is no sacrifice

and no forgiving. For him, " there is nothing mine to aid others " .

Then how can there be a notion of sacrifice? For him, " nothing can

go wrong as there is nothing wrong in the first place " . Then how can

there be a notion of forgiving? Obviously both notions belong to the

others who harbor their respective egoes!

 

(THANK YOU ! WE SEE NOW THE POINT. ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS

EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is having our eye on other's

welfare and benefit. This is true sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO

SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING, ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG

I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS BENEFICIAL TO US? From Gita Talk

Moderators).

 

For social and personal upliftment, a softer ego is better than the

crude one, I agree. Notions such as sacrifice, forgiving, etc. are

very useful there. In spiritual upliftment, ego is not acceptable in

any form. When the ego itself is annihilated in spiritual

upliftment, all other upliftments are just natural within that. That

is the beauty of spirituality versus " good living " . " Good living "

(Samaja Dharma) requires many tenets and doctrines as it still

remains variant and circumstantial. Spirituality (Sanaatana Dharma),

on the other hand, is eteranl and unique. It transcends all the

variations as well as the variants catergorically. The happiness

(Ananda) is its abode.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

The moment one applies self conscience the question of evaluation of

the task sets in, i.e., result is viewed and assessed whether it is

a " good " or " bad " job to do. The assigned job has to be done without

any consideration to that aspect.Could the doubt be cleared by this

humble person ? Namaste..

 

 

 

 

Grihastha - Household is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity) which a

human being is subjected to. No other tapasya is as subtle, as

fierce and as consuming as is that of a household. One must always ,

therefore, remember this 'grihastha' is a school for one's

emancipation and address the same accordingly.

 

Barin Chatterjee

------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

Look at the family of Lord Shiva ! Lord Shiva sports garland of

skulls and serpent. Lord Shiva's vehicle is bull. Parvatiji on the

contrary is always wearing beautiful ornaments. Parvatiji's vehicle

is Lion. Their son, Lord Ganesha's vehicle is mouse. Their second

son Lord Karthikeya's vehicle is peacock. The serpent and mouse are

by birth fierce enemies. Mouse is the food of serpent. Peacock and

serpent are enemies. Peacock kills serpent. Lion and bull are

enemies. Bull is food for lion. Bitter enemies of each other. All in

one family. But, all live in perfect harmony and comfortably.

 

JUST AS: In Lord Shiva's family all members have different and

contrasting natures, still there is unity in the family.

 

SIMILARLY: All members of any household have different natures, and

different perspectives, and still there can be unity.

 

How? Each member should look at his role and duty only and not at

other's role and duty. One should always strive to give pleasure to

other. " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST " - should be the 'bhava'

(inner expression) of a Grihastha.

 

A grihastha in order to provide pleasure to other family members,

must renounce his own pleasures. That renunciation in fact is true

austerity ! It is law that without renouncing your own pleasure, you

can't provide happiness to others.

 

1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures- if you do these, you have lived

well in the grihashtha.

 

Sadhaks should remember that it is in Grihastha only- each and every

household, no exceptions- that you get practical opportunities to

get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual likings

and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha) and learn fine points of

real " karma yoga " and " bhakti yoga " . Grihashtha Ashram (Household)

is the most important and most beneficial phase of each human being.

One must therefore make best use of it. It is in grihastha, seeds of

of your old age are sown.

 

Above all, in Grihastha it is the utmost duty of a male is to see

God in his parents. If a grihashtha merely obeys his parents , his

life becomes divine. His old age becomes ideal.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

" O descendant of Bharata, at that time Krishna, smiling, in the midst

of both the armies, spoke the following words to the grief-stricken

Arjuna. " B.G. 2:10

 

The 'Smile of Krishna', that is pregnant with, Divine Love,

Compassion, and Wisdom.

 

If one is of a nature to have these qualities in the household,

then peace and love will prevail.

 

Being detached from the Ego Wars, will give one the ability to be of

real value to all within the family sphere, (and those who know you).

 

A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on. (PLEASE ELABORATE ON THE QUALITIES - FROM

GITA TALK MODERATORS)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor)

--------------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally. Doing happens while

doer disappears! At all stages and in all roles duties will be

performed within the guidelines of Dharma as appropriate for the

circumstances one is placed, because one is Loving what has to be

done.

Without feeling such Love, duty feels like forced upon one, and

becomes chores, and boring! With Love, it is not so much as duty,

that one has to do, but rather its a Joy to do it.

So the real issue boils down to " what stops such Love to flow

freely? " Not realizing what I truly AM.

However, we can be guided by wisdom of Gita to ultimately realize

our true nature by performing duties in the best possible ways we

know, with devotion, with Love and without any expectations or

favors. Doing in such a way is its own reward, Yoga itself,

incorporating Yogah Karmashu Kaushalam principle of Gita

So as a householder with family, one takes care of those who are

entrusted to one by God. with an attitude of seeing the family as

gift from God, and serving them is to serve God. That is all!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Grihastha is the feeder to all other ashrams. Saints also get food

from households only. The beauty of grihastha ashram is that " you

can't run away " from your duties. You must do your duties- else

shatterred home ! A sadhu if he confronts with something

unpleasant , he will simply take his kamandal and walk away from the

scene. But a household can not ! That is " austerity " !

 

Rule of Grihastha is simple- Serve, Serve and serve ! Do your duty !

It is a law that service/duty destroys " mamata " . It is also a law

that if mamata is destroyed, ego gets destroyed automatically. You

instantly realise God if mamata (mine) is destroyed. What else ego

consists except " me " ? Where is the " me " when " mine " is

destroyed? " Me " (ego) and " Mine " ( mamata) are the chains which bind

a human being to the world. From this only Raag and Dvesha emerge !

Household is the place where you can easily -simply by serving the

family-destroy them decisively and achieve the very purpose for

which the human life has been given to you !

 

" Nirmamo Nirahankarasya sa shanti madi gachhati " - He who has

become " minenessless " and " egoless " gets permanent Peace and

liberation.

 

As simple as that !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

(Shashikalaji, ANY REFERENCE? CAN ONE NOT BE FREE OF MAMTA (free

of mine-ness)BUT STILL HAVE SENSE OF I-NESS (EGOISM)? GT

MODERATORS)

 

--------------------------

Friends

1.Arjuna was a Gruhastha, a family man and a householder.The

teachings applicable to Arjuna is applicable to

Gruhastha or householder.

2.The difference between Gruhastha and Sannyasi is difference in

objects of desire or attachment. King Janak devoid of attachment

was better and spiritually advanced than many Cannabis.

3.As rightly mentioned by Shri Naga Narayana the only duty of human

beings is to be happy. It is the substance,core and outcome of all

knowledge and efforts.

4.God is also called 'SAT CHIT ANAND' meaning mind/heart filled

with indestructible/permanent joy.Such state is not dependent on

others.

5.Happiness or Joy cannot be at other's cost or expense.

6.Sacrifice and happiness are contrary. Sacrifice will not provide

happiness. (KINDLY EXPLAIN - FROM GITA TALK MODERATOR)

7.According to Gita ,the only duty is to unite with God because that

alone can be source of happiness.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

KAMA--ARTHA--MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

The 4 steps Grahastha need to do.

But the Grahasta has to do and live as per sastras that Bagavan

says. Grahasth has lot of duties on shoulder as Kunthi had. But

Kunthi did well.

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

duty=dharama ?

Family or no family, the only dharma of a man is to unite with God.

1.Accept God is mine and family belongs to God. So serve the family

considering it as a gift given to you by God, with the capacity

given to you by God, with the tools given to you by God.

 

2.Choose any path-gyaan yoga, bhakti yoga or karma yoga. The common

element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme is the most important.

Many hard working people think that they are following karma yoga,

but they take all responsibily on themselves, they worry, they

insist on certain outcome, they trust their own strength, to me they

are not Yogi.

 

yoga-sthah kuru karmani

sangam tyaktva dhananjaya

siddhy-asiddhyoh samo bhutva

samatvam yoga ucyate

 

Establish yr self in Yoga and perform yr duties,abandon all

attachment to success or failure. Such evenness of mind is called

yoga.....

 

Do whatever God wants you to do while reaiming established in yoga.

with Love,

a sadhika

 

Sadhna Karigar

-----------------------

 

 

Hi,

According to scriptures, 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of

gratitude. Human being is bound to do duties at various levels of

his life i.e Saisavam, Balyam, Kaumaram and Vardhakyam. In Kaumaram

normaly one takes up life of a householder or Grihastha. A

householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha. To fully live

the life of a human the operation manual called Gita is available

for reference at any level for us.

 

with love, krishnadasan.

----------------------------

 

Dear Sadhak,

Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined elsewhere. One is not to analyze it, nor aspire for it.

Whatever comes in the way that has to be performed with all

sincerity, without having any interest in the result. One has been

given only the right of execution of the assigned work, neither the

cause of it nor the effect.(Karmanye ebo te adhikara, kodachono

faleshu ma, In Gita-II.47).

Option of becoming a Family man was also assigned which has its own

format. The format has also to be strictly followed, as it comes in

the way, but never one can apply his self conscience about

evaluation of the quality of the work assigned. (karmasanginam

agynang budhivedang na jonoyet bidwan jukto sarba karmani sadacharan

jojayet...Gita III-26)

 

BARIN CHATTERJEE

 

Warm regards

--------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR BARINJI,

Kindly explain what you mean in the last paragraph ... " never one can

apply his self conscience....... " .

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

--------------------------

There is ONLY ONE DUTY for all irrespective of what they do ...

BEING HAPPY!

 

As Shankara says,

 

Jatilo mundee lunchita keshah kashaayaambra bahukrita veshah |

Pashyannapi cha na pashyati mudhah udaranimittam bahukritaveshah ||

 

everyone has to do something or the other. One claims to be a house-

holder having no clue of what is house and what is holding. So is a

Sanyasi equally clueless of what Sanyasa means. One may ask, what is

the basis to doubt of their knowledge upon what they are doing?

Happiness, my dear friend. One who is unhappy does not where he

is ... because he does not know what he is doing ... because he does

not know who he is ...

 

Whether you are happy with what you are doing depends on your

intellect. Whether you are happy with what you are depends on your

wisdom. The question really is ... whether you want to be happy with

what you are doing ... or with what you are.

 

If you want to be happy with what you do ... many questions

follow ... how is my " doing " related to happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary as I see ... then, how much " doing " is

required to maintain the derivative happiness?

 

The " doing " is multitude and variant ... then how many " doings "

should I do to derive effective happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary, multitude and variant, how can I ever say

that the " happiness-es " derived from my various " doings " is really

the happiness?

 

Now the first question looms around stronger ... has the " doing "

anything to do with the happiness at all?!

 

I you want you to be happy with what you are ... then who cares what

you do? Stick with what you think you are.

 

Then comes the question, " Am I the one that I think that I am? "

 

Then, my dear friend, the clock starts ticking for you toward the

real happiness ... because you will find that you are not whatever

you thought as, perpetually. You will discover that all your

thoughts of " what you are " were in fact your " doings " and

never " you " . Then you may also realize that your happiness were

perpetually consumed by these parasites ... your identities ...

your " doings " and your " are-s " . As far as we are cognizant of what

we " are " and what we " do " , we are OK ... we can interrogate them

further.

 

Relating " what we do " and " what we are " to the happiness is an

absurd baseless logic ... it is called " Kaakataaleeya Nyaaya " . A

crow sits on a palm tree. Palm fruit falls down. The observer says,

the palm fruit falls down when a crow sits on the tree. The observer

beleives that there is a relation having not given any attention to

what relation means! Being happy is neither in " what we do " nor

in " what we think we are " . Both are the two faces of the same coing -

IDENTITY, the ego. In fact, if you were ever happy, my dear friend,

it was ONLY WHEN you had kept this coin away in your pocket.

 

Therefore, whatever you are and whatever you do is OK as far you are

happy. Because your happiness indicates the absence of the true

culprit - the ego. If we stick to the happiness as such, we will

then realize that " what is needed is to throw away this fellow, the

ego. Then what I do does not matter ... and what I am does not

matter ... I am happy as I should be! " . In my opinion, that is

spirituality.

 

Therefore, I see only one rule for spirituality irrespective of what

we are and what we do ... being happy ... being happy at the

core ... being nothing but happiness as such.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

---------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR NAGA NARAYANA JI, Yes! Being happy at the core is key ! One

doubt arises is can one be happy at another's expense as a

householder/family man? Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides

being happy, there must be certain duties of a Householder. Kindly

explain .. how one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true

culprit - the ego?

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

---------------------------

Interesting question......

 

It is all about knowing your true self.........while playing the

role whatever it may be........

Start with positive thought then to Happy thought and try to shift

to no thoughts....

 

As a householder even reaching to the stage of keeping happy

thoughts all the time works very fine and

gives great results and then the ultimate may happen too....while

the role of a householder goes on

perfectly, joyously........

 

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

Duties of a Gruastha

 

Very simple I believe. I know I don't write much because I am afraid

I may offend some people as I have my own strong views as well.

 

It is nice that you used the word DUTY. Life is a duty and one has

to understand the difference between duty and Maya. Maya attaches

you to the physical manifestation, duty is done as an entity and not

shrouded in Maya. As a father, mother, brother son, sister etc one

performs duty. Thus Moksha is easier to attain.

 

Happy to call this my 2 cents.

shashi dave

------------------------------

SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES

 

- only dharma of a man is to unite with God

- Accept God is mine and family belongs to God.

- Follow any path, common element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme

- 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of gratitude.

- householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha

- operation manual called Gita is ever available to us

- Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined

- Duty is to be performed with all sincerity, without attachment to

the result

- Being Happy at the core

- Know your true self, all else is a role

- From positive to happy to no thoughts!

- role of a householder goes on perfectly, joyously

- Life is a duty and one has to understand the difference between

duty and Maya

- Householder life is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity)

- Attitude must be - " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST "

- 1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures

- When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally.

- get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual

likings and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha)

- utmost duty of a male is to see God in his parents

- become free of mamta and ahamtaa by serve, serve, serve.

- Free of I-ness and Mine-ness.

- DHARMA - ARTHA - KAMA- MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

 

 

 

 

-------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

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Dear Sadhakas, Namakar

 

Please enlighten me, regarding what are the duties of a Gruhastha

(family man, householder), according to Geetaji.

 

....Gee Waman

-------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Shree Hari

 

Dear Sathyanarayanji

 

Minor correction - In your Mahabharat example - Arjuna brings

Ashwathama to Draupadi and not to Kunti.

 

Thank you for beautiful illustrations, they are indeed very

inspiring and fitting to the duty of the householder. Nothing

personal, would like to share a common observation - in few

instances, there have been great responses from our learned scholars

in Gita-talk forum but at times, the question at hand has not been

specifically addressed. Our moderators have been very patient about

this. Pls. forgive me for being so blunt about this observation,

kindly take my comments in a constructive way only.

 

Thanks to Gee Waman for posing a good question -

 

WHAT IS HOUSEHOLDER'S DUTY ACCORDING TO GITAJI?

 

In this particular setting, as a Kshatriya, Arjuna's duty is to

fight the war, protect the masses from the unrighteousness rule.

Depending upon the setting, circumstances and the situation at hand,

the individual's duty does vary, Arjuna too is a householder, in

household circumstances he will be playing a different role, his

duty would not be fighting the war. But the principles outlined in

our scriptures do apply: the householder's duty is described broadly

in Gitaji much in detail in many verses but for the sake of brevity,

following few are referenced here:

 

Gita: (2/ 31-38), (2/48),

(3/8-9) (3-19), (3-21), (3-35),

(16/24)

 

Gita 2-38

" :sukhadukhe same krtva, labhalabhau jayajayau

tato yudhaya yujsave, nai 'vam papam avapsyasi "

 

Meaning:

Treating alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat,

get ready for the fight (Arjuna's duty in this setting), then,

fighting thus you will not incur sin.

 

Gita 2-48

" yogasthah kuru karmani, sangam tyaktva dhanamjaya

sidhyasidhyoh samo bhutva, samatvam yoga ecyate "

 

Meaning:

Established in Yoga, perform your duty O Dhanamjaya (Arjuna),

abandoning attachment, being even-minded in success and failure;

even-mindedness is called Yoga.

 

Gita 3-19

" tasmad asaktah satatam, kayam karma samacara

asakto hy acaran karma, param apnoti purushah "

 

Meaning:

Therefore, always efficiently do your duty without attachment. Doing

work without attachment, man attains the Supreme.

 

Gita 16-24

" tasmac chastram pramanam te, karyakaryavasthitau

jnatva sastravidhanoktam, karma karatum iha 'rhasi "

 

Meaning:

Therefore, let the scripture be your authority in determining what

ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Knowing this, you

should act only in accordance with the sanction of scripture.

 

Humble regards,

Madan Kaura

---------------------------

Simple answer could be....

 

To know your true self and help everyone around i.e. family and

friends

in knowing themselves.....while doing (without the doer ship)

everything else......

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

 

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear sadaks,

Scarifies--When Sri Rama asked to give away his throne to Bharat,

Puraan says HIS face was like just flowered lotus and brightness on

HIS face. The message was from Kaykeyi (Step mother) not from

Dasarath who actually said. Sri Rama never even verified the order

from Dasarath. Means sacrifies not done with benefit or done

knowingly (Sri Rama was not knowing the act was sacrifies). The best

part was when Sri Rama returned from forest HE first went to the

hunch back lady who spoilt Kaikeyi mind. DEAR SADAKS, kaikeyi mind

got corupted because of desire (which is ongoing discussion) of her

son. There is a saying Do Dharma with one hand let not the other

hand know. Concept of Sacrifies. A small iota thought of the action

in mind is enough to bring Ego in sacrifies.

 

Jesus crucified knows body soul are differant. If someone feels

happy in crucifing the body HE was silent. HE said, " Nothing happens

without the will of my Father " . So the action of sacrifies was not

owned by Jesus, the action owned by HIS father. Before dying HE

said, " Oh father in heavens let them be spared as they know not what

they are doing " . So the action of the crucifer was also disowned by

Jesus, which in turn disowned in mind level.

Five Bala Pandavas was slined by Aswathama after the war. Sri

Krishna and Arjuna catches Aswathama brings to Kunthi. She says let

Aswathama go since he is Guru`s son. Kunthi sacrifies was a concept.

Sadaks know Baktha Gora pot maker. His enimies broke his pots to

bits whitch he was carrying by cart for sale. He started picking the

bits from floor. The enemies asked whether he was mad. He replied

the bits mat hurt the passer by, so he is clearing the way. Pots was

sacrifice and picking denotes forgiveness. Both action were not even

in mind level Same Gora due to quarrel with his wife who said not to

touch her there after. Gora was NO way different from daily

household and in showing affection to his wife, but remained

untouched living in same bed room. Just a word from his wife in

anger not to touch her, he sacrificed his years of life which we

call it happiness.

 

Buddha walking for bath. Some said abusive language. He actually

forgot then and there, but his disciples reminded him. Buddha said

when did that happened. Mind level forgiveness which not owned. So

was Sri Rama, when some one asked forgivness for their misbehaviour

HE used to say " When it happened " . We store everything in our mind

to full extent, leaving no place for Bagavan WHO keeps on saying

leave it to ME (Surrender). Same thing said, in Christianity, " Empty

thyself, I will fill it " . We wont empty for Sri Krishna to come in,

still I hear from some sadaks, " Is God gone on holidays when I am

sufferings " .

 

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

On Ashokji's comments:

It is equally possible that acts of sacrifice and that of empathy

both can boost ego or both may not necessarily boost ego, depending

on the inner postures while acting.

As I understand it, Happiness is not contrary to anything or anyone,

as in Happiness there is " nobody " that is happy, is totally devoid

of " me " . It just is That, Happiness!

Our true nature, upon realization, is experienced as Happiness-

Bliss itself. It is welcoming Presence in us which welcomes

sacrifices with joy. It says " yes " to everything arising/appearing

in it, the reason why they arise/appear in the first place.

Sometimes doing things for others can also strengthen ego if in

thoughts " doer " creeps up while doing.

Forgiveness is the greatest virtue in practical life, sure. But in

forgiving if " forgiver " , disguised " me " shows up to forgive

the " other " , it may not make us peaceful, but can boost ego.

Forgiving, to me, is to overlook, or look over ego in others and

give understanding. It is to see that the person is not bad but

his/her acts are so, due to ignorance.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

 

Raam! Raam!!

 

We are all grateful to GT Moderators for sheer service being

rendered to humanity through management of this divine web site.

With reference to the topic under discussion , however, may I state

that for the first time I saw them agreeing to a totally wrong

statements. Since it is very dangerous from 20000 + sadhak point

of view hence I must point out. Consider the following:

 

" As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES.. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH AS HAPPINESS and ANAND AS BLISS. In your response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators) "

 

What does it clarify? How spirituality is bi-modal in nature? HOW

CAN EGO ITSELF RELINQUISH ITS CHERISHED I -ness or mineness? Answer

me ! How can Ego relinquish itself ? What are natural agents,

substantial agents, social agents, psychological agents ? What was

wrong in considering Happiness and Sukh as worldly and Anand as

Bliss to be the goal of each of us? Why we should equate them so

casually? How can an inert thing like TRUE FREEDOM " itself " empower

itself to execute on its own ........?

 

Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's beliefs is deceit and

hypocracy. ( WHAT BEHAVIOUR ? WHOSE BELIEF? ) /

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. ( WHY ONE SHOULD NOT

BECOME SPECIFIC? WHY ONE SHOULD NOT BECOME SADHAK? HOW ANYTHING WE

DO IS OK? DRUG ADDICTS ARE OK? )

 

Shyama C

-------------------------------

Radhey Radhey

 

Sadhak Sushilji ! I am happy you covered yourself quickly against a

difficult note which you wrote that " Sacrifice and Happiness are

contrary " . I agree fully with your explanation except Sr No 1. It is

Sr No 2 till the end which is absolutely correct. The fact is that

every sacrifice ( renunciation) instantly produces happiness.

INSTANTLY - even if that renunciation is of body waste. It is LAW !

That it boosts ego, etc they are all craps. NO RENUNCIATION CAN EVER

FUEL EGO ! Every renunciation reduces Ego ! There is no substance in

classifying Bhoga, Happiness (sukha) and Ananda and then eloquently

concluding - " Just words....nothing more " . " If you look closely -

Happiness is happiness " !! Sheer twist of words and nothing ,

nothing more than that ! They are not just words , there are

distinctions between them as wide as are south and north poles.

 

You have not looked closely at all Mr Naga Narain. Bhoga is

temporary. Bhoga is relative. ANANDA is absolute, self proven. Dont

say so loosely whatever comes to mind. Think deeply. Have you never

heard the word PEACE ? If yes, why did not you talk about it? What

is happiness ? Know Mr Naga and accept it humbly that- Happiness is

PEACE !! Says Gita - ASHANTASYA KUTAH SUKHAM ? ( Where is happiness

to him , who is not peaceful.? ) Dont just say for the sake of

saying.

 

But I have a request to make to GT Moderators. Please insist that

there is RELEVANCE to the Q asked in the response. Sushilji ,

Vyasji, Mike, Pratapji , Jee Jee Shashikalajee all talked

about " Duties of Household " and then came finer points of

discussion. Did Mr Naga Narain talk a single word reg the Question

of Mr GeeWaman? This is not how the deliberations become focussed

and fruitful.

 

Radhey Radhey

Nisha Chatterji

--------------------------------

To GT Moderators

 

Re-Read this again and kindly explain:

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-

triggered,whether it is established within or borrowed from around,

it has the same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the

ego. Anybody can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes

alcohol why he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be

always to forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard.

If you analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to

analyze), it becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at

least to forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there.

Whether a person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance

(e.g.coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans,

etc.),and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

WHAT DOES IT MEAN ? IT MEANS THAT IF YOU ARE CONSUMING DRUGS , (

substance triggered) - so long as under the influence of drugs you

are forgetting I- ness and Me- ness , you have established yourself

to the HIGHEST ANANDA level and have achieved the goal of human

birth ??? WHAT EXACTLY IS MEANT BY THIS?

 

And GT Moderators are thanking ?? along with boldly reference to

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj !!!

 

No ! I dont want to be a party to such ecstacies! Sorry. I regret I

became member of this group.

 

Audrey Rodrigues

--------------------------------

Hare Hare

 

Recent deliberations raise more Questions than answers. How can any

SADHAK boldly state that BHOGA/SUKHA/ANANDA are same thing, only a

matter of attitude, the effect is the same !!! Incomprehensible !

 

Statements such as same Ananda gets converted into happiness/bhoga

etc. are taking us no where in this WORD PLAY. The fact is that

there is huge difference in EXPERIENCE/ VERY NATURE/ VERY ELEMENTARY

of these elements. One is relative,transitory, unnatural, unreal and

another is ABSOLUTE and NATURAL, and real. What has attitude got

to do with it is totally unclear? and mainly what does it have to

do with the Question of Mr Gee Waman?

 

Bandook Singh Rathod

 

--------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Friends

I refer to the Gita Talk Moderator's request for explanation on my

statement 'Sacrifice and happiness are contrary'

1.Mr Naga Narayan has explained it correctly and adequately that the

notion or act of sacrifices boosts ego.

2.Act done with compassion and empathy for the benefit of other

will not boost ego and the act itself will be joy.

3.Sacrifice assumes forgoing something whereas in reality the

happiness by doing something for others is much more.

4.Sacrifice ,in a way ,focuses attention on other whereas happiness

focuses on self.

5.Sacrifice assumes owning and parting with something valuable

whereas for a sadhak nothing is owned and nothing is parted with.

 

If anything done which does not boosts ego it is ok but mind is vey

subtle

 

There is fundamentally no difference of opinion in importance of

sacrifice but one has to careful about it's impact on ego.

 

Mr Naga Narayan has also mentioned Forgiveness.

 

I am willing to forgive now is the first step in forgiving. Only

saying 'I forgive now completely and unconditionaly' is not

sufficient.Major issues and problems can be resolved by one

statement 'I am willing to forgive now' It can be made a daily 5-10

minutes routine every night.

 

But even more important is ' I seek forgiveness now' This single

sentence can work miracle.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

------------------------------

 

Q: SUKH = HAPPINESS; and ANAND = BLISS. In your response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand.

 

Normally, the scriptures refer to the same in three levels - Ananda,

Sukha and Bhoga. Though they all address the same experience, the

attitude behind the experience differ dramatically depending on the

ignorance and inertia hoarded in an individual.

 

Ananda is the state of bliss where there are no attitudes - nobody

to claim the ownership of the experience. As soon as an owner (the

ego) crops up, the absolute experience becomes a memory in the

owners perception. The recall of the absolute bliss is often

referred to as Sukha. When an external agent is given the authority

over the same experience - the belief that the joy is inherent in

the objects of pleasures - it is called Bhoga.

 

In other words,

 

Bhoga – The objects are let to own the (notion of) happiness – the

ego owns the anticipation of the experience thereupon. The

individual craves for the availability of the objects of pleasures

and enterst the whirlpool of miseries.

Sukha – The subject owns the (memory of) happiness - the ego owns

the belief of enjoyership. The individual elates in his own prowess

to command the experience. On the positive side, it allows the ego

to pause to wonder and ponder `what is the nature of the happiness

and what exactly is its focus?'

Ananda – The Happiness remains as The Absolute where both the

subject and the objects are dissolved loosing their identities and

ownerships altogether.

 

But, if you look at it closely, The Happiness is The Happiness

whether one entertained apparent notion (Bhoga) or inherent notion

(Sukha) or just be THAT (Ananada). All the words are referring to

the same … but the first two have no clue of what IT really is!

Space is space and time is time whether one is congizant of the same

or not. So is The Hapiness … IT is what IT IS, nothing else.

 

Just words … nothing more …

 

Q: ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is

having our eye on other's welfare and benefit. This is true

sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING,

ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS

BENEFICIAL TO US?

 

Yes! Many other realized souls also advise the same to the worldly

men the same way!! Nobody can tell otherwise in all sanity when

the " good living " is in the context.

 

I am not well-versed on Swamiji's works. But, whatever few things I

have understood so far from his works is as follows. Swamiji

emphasises on all the good qualities when the context is relative

life. All the qualities such as non-violence, sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. are good for keeping healthy relations within

the society on one hand and are good tools to turn one's attention

from " Bhoga " toward " Sukha " - from worldly dependence toward

individual independence to actualize the spiritual practices to

start with. Swamiji refers to this as journey from Prapancha Drishti

toward Viveka Drishti. In Viveka Drishti, clear discrimination (Ref:

Sadhan Sudhaa Sindhu, Vibhaga Yoga) of the perceived dualities and

polarities in absolute clarity from the perceptional view point

itself is of paramount importance to reveal the ignorance hidden in

ones apparent knowledge. At this level, one has to see through ones

appreciation to realize what really is " good " and what really

is " bad " even from the perceptional standards. That is essential to

lead a " good living " . And, " good living " is essential for

spirituality. No arguments there.

 

The same Swamiji also continues further while educating our Viveka

Drishti toward Bhagavaddrishti ( " Sukha " toward " Ananda " ) to explain

how even the acts of Deep Trans (Samadhi) - let alone regular

Bhajans, Meditations, and other good living qualities - belong to

the dominion of the Insentient World, The Prakriti. No trace of ego

is enetertained at The Ananda, The Sentient, The Purusha (Ref:

Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Bhagavattattva). The Avinaashee Ras that he

explains in the next chapter is an eye opener from this perspective.

Only THAT is present and nothing else - not even Samadhi in that

Sahaja Sthiti.

 

Therefore, it depends on the context. A Bhogi needs to be educated

to become a Sukhi … and a Sukhi seeks Ananda naturally. In the first

phase, good qualities should be imbibed … in the second phase, even

that should be dropped. Interestingly, there is no sequence in these

phases … we, as seekers, often oscillate between the three states of

happiness (Bhoga, Sukha and Ananda) due to the inertia and ignorance

gravitated within. Till we purge the lump of ignorance and inertia

out we cannot help it. However, pragmatic appreciation (Yathaartha

Gnyaana) of what we do, how we do and who we are is essential.

Somehow, I am fascinated by the second phase more than the first.

That is all. It does not mean that the first phase is of any

insignificance.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

As our Moderators note Mike's post, I would also say yes, we are a

one big (happy) family. It is happy family because happiness comes

from our bigness. If we feel divided and shrunk, we don't feel

happy. Our bigness makes us integrally one and acts as if we are

one, and hence leaves no room for conflict inherent in division.

Such bigness manifests in well being of all because whoever does

whatever is for well being of one and all.

Secondly I want to build on what Shashikalaji said on Ego.

Ego is a " sense " (perception) of separation in our Consciousness-

Atman, which is ONE, and cannot be divided into many.

This sense is also called " me " or " I " , mistaken to be an

independently existing entity.

This " me " is only a thought in mind or a feeling/sensation

(pains/pleasures) in body that we identify with and say its " me "

or " I " . Once there is " me " , mineness ensues! If we don't identify

body as " me " just as toddlers don't, there cannot be " mineness " .

Mineness can be many but " me " is only one appearing as many

mineness. " me " is hiding place for mineness.

This " me " becomes stronger with external sense perception which we

call world " out there " and thus we say " not-I or not-me " . Thus not-I

or not-me gives more credibility to " me " and viceversa. Soon the

mere sense becomes reality.

Strangly enough, " me " is never our experience! When examined, our

experience seems to be of being conscious of thoughts and sensations

of forms/objects perceived/conceived only. In otherwords,

Consciousness is the only experience upon which we superimpose body-

mind-world. Then to this-body-mind we say " me " and the other-bodies-

world become not-me.

Experientially the body appears in mind as thought; the mind and the

world, both, appear as thoughts in Consciousness. This very

Consciousness is Atman, or Brahman or Reality or Pure Soul, or

Pure " Presence-I AM " or Existence which is conscious of itself

called SELF!

SELF is Sat-Chit experience(anubhutirupah). As such it is never

embodied, rather body-mind-world are in It, It permeates the entire

universe. Everything is in It as Itself.

IF one can see the truth of it, one gets liberated, JeevnMukta.

This is ONE TRUTH, all else is Bondage!

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

In response to the comment by the moderators, to my somewhat

truncated response, I have contemplated Gitaji for what was

underlying my thoughts.

 

'A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on.

 

Taking the verses from Gitaji posted below, and looking at a profile

of a family head who has gained these attributes:

 

The man of restraint is awake

In what is night for all beings;

That in which all beings awake

Is night for the wise one who sees. B.G. 2(69)

 

The highest Self of him who has

Conquered himself and is peaceful,

Is steadfast in cold, heat, pleasure,

Pain; and honor and dishonor. B.G. 6(7)

The yogi who is content in

Knowledge and discrimination,

With senses conquered–unto him

Earth, stone, and gold are all the same. B.G. 6(8)

He attains eminence who looks

The same on well-wishers, friends, foes,

Neutral to enemies and kin,

The righteous and the unrighteous. B.G. 6(9)

 

Would not get caught up with mob mentality, understanding his duty

to create a wise and functioning family.

Being at peace, with the Divine shining through, will do what is

right, will not show favoritism, see the worth in all, including the

members of ones family. (Not to be one eyed, about the family or its

members).

Not to waste effort, in trying to buy affection within the family

with trinkets and toys even if they are sports cars etc.

Understanding that one should not judge, as all is working out as it

will (Lila). But with compassion and love one can offer sound

guidance.

(These attributes are far more global than family, but actually are

we not one big family?)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor).

 

---------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

MIKE! Thank you! BEAUTIFULLY SAID. Are we not one big family? Thus

is our PRIMARY duty AS A " ONE BIG " FAMILY MAN - " Sarvabhootahite

rataah " (Gita 12:4)? That is - May we all be absorbed in the well

being of all. What is sadhak's understanding regarding this? Does

Gita speak at all of the smaller family nucleas that we think off as

family?

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Excellent Q by GT Moderators ! There are two ahams (egos) . One that

relates with " existence " of the self (I exist) . A Jnana Yogi

establishes himself into that only. That remains in all three yogis-

Jnana, Bhakti and Karma yogis, even after liberation/kalyaan.

 

There is " another " ego which is connecting " self " (pure soul) to

inert (to world - body/mind/intellect). It is always " worldly " ego.

I am body, I am Doctor, I am rich etc. This " me " gets destroyed with

destruction of " mine " immediately as a law. What remains behind is

pure unattached free " self " !

Jeevan Mukta. Liberated while living. Janaka, Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj, Vaashishtha, Kaak Bhusandi etc had become liberated before

merging with Brahma. Their binding ego had destroyed but " I exist "

this awareness remained. " I " thus remained there. But that " I "

always remained in " Equanimity " mode- unattached !

 

In fact 'desire', 'spriha' , 'mamata' and 'ahankaar' all four are

one element only-worldly ego ! Desire is gross. " Spriha " (worry for

basic needs for body ) is subtle than desire. " Mamata " (mineness) is

more subtle than " spriha " . Ego (me) is the subtlest among the four

names of same element. Hence in " effect " you renounce

fully " mamata " , you will become " egoless " and vice versa !

 

As regards reference of Gita/Swamiji - please refer pg 137 of Sadhak

Sanjeevani where Swamiji while commenting upon BG 2:71 had stated

exactly what I have written. Read particularly second last para on

pg 137 (Hindi) of Sadhak Sanjeevani !

 

When the body is not " mine " , then I don't need anything . Desire

for what? Worry for what? When nothing is " mine " then what remains

in " me " ?

" Me " in fact is always with reference to worldly possessions, body

etc. When " mine " is gone, very basis for " me " is gone !! What

remained behind is " I exist " - this awareness only ! Unattached,

Free, Liberated - me - I exist !!

 

A Karma yogi (Grihashtha-houeshold generally) strives to

renounce " mineness " - mamata by putting his/her body, belongings,

powers etc fully into the service of the world. By doing that

his/her " mineness " first gets destroyed and thereupon ego (me -ness)

gets purified of " worldly impact/connection " ! A Jnana Yogi first

eliminates " me-ness " (ahankaar- I am doer) by renouncing worldly

activities in favour of nature ( I am not body. I don't do

anything ) and thereupon his/her mamata gets renounced. A Bhakti

yogi changes his " me-ness " from worldly to Godly ( I am of God ) and

mineness from worldly to Godly (ONLY God is mine) and thus becomes

egoless and mamtaless !! All three thus renounce " connection with

inert- world - body/mind/intellect/activity/matter " . " I exist " -

this awareness remains in them till death ! They use body, mind,

intellect - but in " equanimous mode " - unattached !!

 

Thanks ! Nothing pleases me more than such Question / Answer

sessions. A really good Question !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

THANK YOU JEE JEE! (GT MODERATORS)

--------------------------------

Thanks for the wonderful questions …

 

How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit - the

ego?

Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family man?

Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there must

be certain duties of a Householder?

 

Let us see …

 

Q: How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit -

the ego?

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-triggered,

whether it is established within or borrowed from around, it has the

same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the ego. Anybody

can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes alcohol why

he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be always to

forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard. If you

analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to analyze), it

becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at least to

forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there. Whether a

person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance (e.g.

coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans, etc.),

and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

Its uniques aspect of the happiness is its independence of all the

media through which one attains it. Also, the happiness should be

ever present everywhere. Otherwise, how can one attain it

irresepctive of the media chosen? How can one attain the same every

time consistently? How can anybody attain it any time anywhere? This

reinforces the theory that it is present across time and space,

rather it transcends space and time and therefore everything else.

 

When it is independent of everything, why should one develop

dependence on anything else? When it is ever-present everywhere in

abundance, why every one seem to struggle to pursue the same as if

in a panick that there is a scarcity of the same? That remains the

puzzle for everyone.

 

The reason why we loose sight of the happiness is the corruption

smeared by the ego who comes back to action claiming ownership over

the erstwhile experience of the happiness. Knowing the un-ownable

nature of the happiness subconciously, the ego enforces its

authority further by making a belief that the happiness is hidden in

the objects and actions because it feels it can manipulate them.

Without its own knowledge, it becomes a slave to the same ideas,

actions and objects which are its slaves in its belief. That is the

weakness of the ego … dependence on external entities such as

objects, actions and ideas to believe the presence of the happiness.

It does not understand, rather it refuses to understand, that the

very same ideas, actions or objects could provide happiness only by

removing itself from its cognition by disconnecting it from the

mechanism of relating itself to the I-ness and Mine-ness in real.

Due to its ignorance of what is happening, it becomes addicted to

the very notions, actions and objects to " forget " itself.

 

As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH = HAPPINESS and ANAND = BLISS. In you response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators)

 

Q: Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family

man?

 

When one is established in CONTENTMENT and FREEDOM how can he ever

disturb others?! Even when one is working toward THAT, how can there

be exploitation of others? Compassion floods out when one is filled

with Freedom and Contentment; compassion oozes out even when one's

vision is fixed toward THAT. Such a person can never be

inconsiderate to his environment - be it the family, or colleagues,

or fellow travellers, or any stranger on the street. Compassion to

others is an eventuality, a natural eventuality ascertaining the

abundance of happiness within. Apparent lack of compassion is the

symptom of the inherent lack of contentment and freedom. One has to

dig deep through the apparent symptom toward the inherent root cause

to correct the corruption at deeper and deeper layers. THAT TO ME IS

THE SPIRITUALITY. Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's

beliefs is deceit and hypocracy.

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. All the disturbances of

an ocean is superficial … the deeper we dive, the more peaceful it

is … the abyss of all the bliss is inherent in our depths

where " what we think we do " as well as " what we think we are " are

both annihilated without traces.

 

Q: Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there

must be certain duties of a Householder?

 

The notions of sacrifice, forgiving, etc. have a corrupt notion

thanks to our ego. What is meant really to people in common sense is

that, a person forgoes his happiness for others' happiness in these

acts. That means, the ownership is strongly enseeded in such

notions. Typically, sacrifice would mean " Yes that is mine, but I do

not mind giving to the other man so that he can be happy with! " Same

way, forgiving typically means, " Yes the other fellow did something

wrong; but it is OK; let me be magnanimous enough not to react; poor

fellow he does not know what he is doing! " Do you see the strength

of ownership in a subtle camafluage here? That is dangerous for

spirituality.

 

In contentment, there is no room for ideas such as sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. Whatever a content man does looks like sacrifice

as he is not staking for any fruits from the actions that flow out

of him. Also, since whatever the environemnt does to him are lost in

the oblivion of the contentment within and hence cannot invoke any

reaction at all. Therefore, it sounds like he is forgiving

everything that is happening around. To him … there is no sacrifice

and no forgiving. For him, " there is nothing mine to aid others " .

Then how can there be a notion of sacrifice? For him, " nothing can

go wrong as there is nothing wrong in the first place " . Then how can

there be a notion of forgiving? Obviously both notions belong to the

others who harbor their respective egoes!

 

(THANK YOU ! WE SEE NOW THE POINT. ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS

EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is having our eye on other's

welfare and benefit. This is true sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO

SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING, ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG

I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS BENEFICIAL TO US? From Gita Talk

Moderators).

 

For social and personal upliftment, a softer ego is better than the

crude one, I agree. Notions such as sacrifice, forgiving, etc. are

very useful there. In spiritual upliftment, ego is not acceptable in

any form. When the ego itself is annihilated in spiritual

upliftment, all other upliftments are just natural within that. That

is the beauty of spirituality versus " good living " . " Good living "

(Samaja Dharma) requires many tenets and doctrines as it still

remains variant and circumstantial. Spirituality (Sanaatana Dharma),

on the other hand, is eteranl and unique. It transcends all the

variations as well as the variants catergorically. The happiness

(Ananda) is its abode.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

The moment one applies self conscience the question of evaluation of

the task sets in, i.e., result is viewed and assessed whether it is

a " good " or " bad " job to do. The assigned job has to be done without

any consideration to that aspect.Could the doubt be cleared by this

humble person ? Namaste..

 

 

 

 

Grihastha - Household is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity) which a

human being is subjected to. No other tapasya is as subtle, as

fierce and as consuming as is that of a household. One must always ,

therefore, remember this 'grihastha' is a school for one's

emancipation and address the same accordingly.

 

Barin Chatterjee

------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

Look at the family of Lord Shiva ! Lord Shiva sports garland of

skulls and serpent. Lord Shiva's vehicle is bull. Parvatiji on the

contrary is always wearing beautiful ornaments. Parvatiji's vehicle

is Lion. Their son, Lord Ganesha's vehicle is mouse. Their second

son Lord Karthikeya's vehicle is peacock. The serpent and mouse are

by birth fierce enemies. Mouse is the food of serpent. Peacock and

serpent are enemies. Peacock kills serpent. Lion and bull are

enemies. Bull is food for lion. Bitter enemies of each other. All in

one family. But, all live in perfect harmony and comfortably.

 

JUST AS: In Lord Shiva's family all members have different and

contrasting natures, still there is unity in the family.

 

SIMILARLY: All members of any household have different natures, and

different perspectives, and still there can be unity.

 

How? Each member should look at his role and duty only and not at

other's role and duty. One should always strive to give pleasure to

other. " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST " - should be the 'bhava'

(inner expression) of a Grihastha.

 

A grihastha in order to provide pleasure to other family members,

must renounce his own pleasures. That renunciation in fact is true

austerity ! It is law that without renouncing your own pleasure, you

can't provide happiness to others.

 

1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures- if you do these, you have lived

well in the grihashtha.

 

Sadhaks should remember that it is in Grihastha only- each and every

household, no exceptions- that you get practical opportunities to

get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual likings

and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha) and learn fine points of

real " karma yoga " and " bhakti yoga " . Grihashtha Ashram (Household)

is the most important and most beneficial phase of each human being.

One must therefore make best use of it. It is in grihastha, seeds of

of your old age are sown.

 

Above all, in Grihastha it is the utmost duty of a male is to see

God in his parents. If a grihashtha merely obeys his parents , his

life becomes divine. His old age becomes ideal.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

" O descendant of Bharata, at that time Krishna, smiling, in the midst

of both the armies, spoke the following words to the grief-stricken

Arjuna. " B.G. 2:10

 

The 'Smile of Krishna', that is pregnant with, Divine Love,

Compassion, and Wisdom.

 

If one is of a nature to have these qualities in the household,

then peace and love will prevail.

 

Being detached from the Ego Wars, will give one the ability to be of

real value to all within the family sphere, (and those who know you).

 

A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on. (PLEASE ELABORATE ON THE QUALITIES - FROM

GITA TALK MODERATORS)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor)

--------------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally. Doing happens while

doer disappears! At all stages and in all roles duties will be

performed within the guidelines of Dharma as appropriate for the

circumstances one is placed, because one is Loving what has to be

done.

Without feeling such Love, duty feels like forced upon one, and

becomes chores, and boring! With Love, it is not so much as duty,

that one has to do, but rather its a Joy to do it.

So the real issue boils down to " what stops such Love to flow

freely? " Not realizing what I truly AM.

However, we can be guided by wisdom of Gita to ultimately realize

our true nature by performing duties in the best possible ways we

know, with devotion, with Love and without any expectations or

favors. Doing in such a way is its own reward, Yoga itself,

incorporating Yogah Karmashu Kaushalam principle of Gita

So as a householder with family, one takes care of those who are

entrusted to one by God. with an attitude of seeing the family as

gift from God, and serving them is to serve God. That is all!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Grihastha is the feeder to all other ashrams. Saints also get food

from households only. The beauty of grihastha ashram is that " you

can't run away " from your duties. You must do your duties- else

shatterred home ! A sadhu if he confronts with something

unpleasant , he will simply take his kamandal and walk away from the

scene. But a household can not ! That is " austerity " !

 

Rule of Grihastha is simple- Serve, Serve and serve ! Do your duty !

It is a law that service/duty destroys " mamata " . It is also a law

that if mamata is destroyed, ego gets destroyed automatically. You

instantly realise God if mamata (mine) is destroyed. What else ego

consists except " me " ? Where is the " me " when " mine " is

destroyed? " Me " (ego) and " Mine " ( mamata) are the chains which bind

a human being to the world. From this only Raag and Dvesha emerge !

Household is the place where you can easily -simply by serving the

family-destroy them decisively and achieve the very purpose for

which the human life has been given to you !

 

" Nirmamo Nirahankarasya sa shanti madi gachhati " - He who has

become " minenessless " and " egoless " gets permanent Peace and

liberation.

 

As simple as that !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

(Shashikalaji, ANY REFERENCE? CAN ONE NOT BE FREE OF MAMTA (free

of mine-ness)BUT STILL HAVE SENSE OF I-NESS (EGOISM)? GT

MODERATORS)

 

--------------------------

Friends

1.Arjuna was a Gruhastha, a family man and a householder.The

teachings applicable to Arjuna is applicable to

Gruhastha or householder.

2.The difference between Gruhastha and Sannyasi is difference in

objects of desire or attachment. King Janak devoid of attachment

was better and spiritually advanced than many Cannabis.

3.As rightly mentioned by Shri Naga Narayana the only duty of human

beings is to be happy. It is the substance,core and outcome of all

knowledge and efforts.

4.God is also called 'SAT CHIT ANAND' meaning mind/heart filled

with indestructible/permanent joy.Such state is not dependent on

others.

5.Happiness or Joy cannot be at other's cost or expense.

6.Sacrifice and happiness are contrary. Sacrifice will not provide

happiness. (KINDLY EXPLAIN - FROM GITA TALK MODERATOR)

7.According to Gita ,the only duty is to unite with God because that

alone can be source of happiness.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

KAMA--ARTHA--MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

The 4 steps Grahastha need to do.

But the Grahasta has to do and live as per sastras that Bagavan

says. Grahasth has lot of duties on shoulder as Kunthi had. But

Kunthi did well.

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

duty=dharama ?

Family or no family, the only dharma of a man is to unite with God.

1.Accept God is mine and family belongs to God. So serve the family

considering it as a gift given to you by God, with the capacity

given to you by God, with the tools given to you by God.

 

2.Choose any path-gyaan yoga, bhakti yoga or karma yoga. The common

element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme is the most important.

Many hard working people think that they are following karma yoga,

but they take all responsibily on themselves, they worry, they

insist on certain outcome, they trust their own strength, to me they

are not Yogi.

 

yoga-sthah kuru karmani

sangam tyaktva dhananjaya

siddhy-asiddhyoh samo bhutva

samatvam yoga ucyate

 

Establish yr self in Yoga and perform yr duties,abandon all

attachment to success or failure. Such evenness of mind is called

yoga.....

 

Do whatever God wants you to do while reaiming established in yoga.

with Love,

a sadhika

 

Sadhna Karigar

-----------------------

 

 

Hi,

According to scriptures, 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of

gratitude. Human being is bound to do duties at various levels of

his life i.e Saisavam, Balyam, Kaumaram and Vardhakyam. In Kaumaram

normaly one takes up life of a householder or Grihastha. A

householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha. To fully live

the life of a human the operation manual called Gita is available

for reference at any level for us.

 

with love, krishnadasan.

----------------------------

 

Dear Sadhak,

Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined elsewhere. One is not to analyze it, nor aspire for it.

Whatever comes in the way that has to be performed with all

sincerity, without having any interest in the result. One has been

given only the right of execution of the assigned work, neither the

cause of it nor the effect.(Karmanye ebo te adhikara, kodachono

faleshu ma, In Gita-II.47).

Option of becoming a Family man was also assigned which has its own

format. The format has also to be strictly followed, as it comes in

the way, but never one can apply his self conscience about

evaluation of the quality of the work assigned. (karmasanginam

agynang budhivedang na jonoyet bidwan jukto sarba karmani sadacharan

jojayet...Gita III-26)

 

BARIN CHATTERJEE

 

Warm regards

--------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR BARINJI,

Kindly explain what you mean in the last paragraph ... " never one can

apply his self conscience....... " .

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

--------------------------

There is ONLY ONE DUTY for all irrespective of what they do ...

BEING HAPPY!

 

As Shankara says,

 

Jatilo mundee lunchita keshah kashaayaambra bahukrita veshah |

Pashyannapi cha na pashyati mudhah udaranimittam bahukritaveshah ||

 

everyone has to do something or the other. One claims to be a house-

holder having no clue of what is house and what is holding. So is a

Sanyasi equally clueless of what Sanyasa means. One may ask, what is

the basis to doubt of their knowledge upon what they are doing?

Happiness, my dear friend. One who is unhappy does not where he

is ... because he does not know what he is doing ... because he does

not know who he is ...

 

Whether you are happy with what you are doing depends on your

intellect. Whether you are happy with what you are depends on your

wisdom. The question really is ... whether you want to be happy with

what you are doing ... or with what you are.

 

If you want to be happy with what you do ... many questions

follow ... how is my " doing " related to happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary as I see ... then, how much " doing " is

required to maintain the derivative happiness?

 

The " doing " is multitude and variant ... then how many " doings "

should I do to derive effective happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary, multitude and variant, how can I ever say

that the " happiness-es " derived from my various " doings " is really

the happiness?

 

Now the first question looms around stronger ... has the " doing "

anything to do with the happiness at all?!

 

I you want you to be happy with what you are ... then who cares what

you do? Stick with what you think you are.

 

Then comes the question, " Am I the one that I think that I am? "

 

Then, my dear friend, the clock starts ticking for you toward the

real happiness ... because you will find that you are not whatever

you thought as, perpetually. You will discover that all your

thoughts of " what you are " were in fact your " doings " and

never " you " . Then you may also realize that your happiness were

perpetually consumed by these parasites ... your identities ...

your " doings " and your " are-s " . As far as we are cognizant of what

we " are " and what we " do " , we are OK ... we can interrogate them

further.

 

Relating " what we do " and " what we are " to the happiness is an

absurd baseless logic ... it is called " Kaakataaleeya Nyaaya " . A

crow sits on a palm tree. Palm fruit falls down. The observer says,

the palm fruit falls down when a crow sits on the tree. The observer

beleives that there is a relation having not given any attention to

what relation means! Being happy is neither in " what we do " nor

in " what we think we are " . Both are the two faces of the same coing -

IDENTITY, the ego. In fact, if you were ever happy, my dear friend,

it was ONLY WHEN you had kept this coin away in your pocket.

 

Therefore, whatever you are and whatever you do is OK as far you are

happy. Because your happiness indicates the absence of the true

culprit - the ego. If we stick to the happiness as such, we will

then realize that " what is needed is to throw away this fellow, the

ego. Then what I do does not matter ... and what I am does not

matter ... I am happy as I should be! " . In my opinion, that is

spirituality.

 

Therefore, I see only one rule for spirituality irrespective of what

we are and what we do ... being happy ... being happy at the

core ... being nothing but happiness as such.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

---------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR NAGA NARAYANA JI, Yes! Being happy at the core is key ! One

doubt arises is can one be happy at another's expense as a

householder/family man? Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides

being happy, there must be certain duties of a Householder. Kindly

explain .. how one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true

culprit - the ego?

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

---------------------------

Interesting question......

 

It is all about knowing your true self.........while playing the

role whatever it may be........

Start with positive thought then to Happy thought and try to shift

to no thoughts....

 

As a householder even reaching to the stage of keeping happy

thoughts all the time works very fine and

gives great results and then the ultimate may happen too....while

the role of a householder goes on

perfectly, joyously........

 

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

Duties of a Gruastha

 

Very simple I believe. I know I don't write much because I am afraid

I may offend some people as I have my own strong views as well.

 

It is nice that you used the word DUTY. Life is a duty and one has

to understand the difference between duty and Maya. Maya attaches

you to the physical manifestation, duty is done as an entity and not

shrouded in Maya. As a father, mother, brother son, sister etc one

performs duty. Thus Moksha is easier to attain.

 

Happy to call this my 2 cents.

shashi dave

------------------------------

SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES

 

- only dharma of a man is to unite with God

- Accept God is mine and family belongs to God.

- Follow any path, common element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme

- 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of gratitude.

- householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha

- operation manual called Gita is ever available to us

- Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined

- Duty is to be performed with all sincerity, without attachment to

the result

- Being Happy at the core

- Know your true self, all else is a role

- From positive to happy to no thoughts!

- role of a householder goes on perfectly, joyously

- Life is a duty and one has to understand the difference between

duty and Maya

- Householder life is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity)

- Attitude must be - " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST "

- 1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures

- When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally.

- get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual

likings and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha)

- utmost duty of a male is to see God in his parents

- become free of mamta and ahamtaa by serve, serve, serve.

- Free of I-ness and Mine-ness.

- DHARMA - ARTHA - KAMA- MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

 

 

 

 

-------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

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Dear Sadhakas, Namakar

 

Please enlighten me, regarding what are the duties of a Gruhastha

(family man, householder), according to Geetaji.

 

....Gee Waman

-------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Ram Ram

 

Last night I was hearing SATSANG of MAHARAJ JI of the day of Since

April-1991, that time there is a bright way in my mind that is WHAT

IS GEETA? MEANING OF GEETA? please rectify my mistake about above

question.

 

If there is a single mistake or wrong question then please " MUJE

BHOLA JAAN KE MAAF KAR DENA " " Consider me to be ignorant / innocent and Forgive

me " according to MAHARAJ JI ( 18 April-

1991's satsang)

 

 

Jag Mohan

--------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

JAGAT BHAR KI ROSHNI KE LIYE, KARODO KI JINDAGI KE LIYE ..... SOORAJ

RE JALATE RAHNA !!

 

For spreading light in the dark universe, giving life to all , O

Sun .... Kindly keep burning !!

 

Words can never express our gratitude to all sadhaks in this forum.

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Tyaag / Bhog / Tapasya / Grihastha / Sin / Virtue !!

 

With permission of this Divine Forum Moderators , I would like to

narrate 'real life' description of aforesaid terms. Read it with

reference to 'Kaliyuga' trends and BG 18:32. Slightly long , but I

hope it will serve many : I got married very early and my Hubby then

was only 17 and me 15. He is very sharp but once we saw a movie

called 'Chitralekha'. There was one ' Kalyugi' song in that -

absolutely appeared even to the best of minds as Bhajan. My

hubby 'acted' on that temporarily and after paying penalty and upon

coming in touch with Swamiji , in early 80s , he realised grave

error. That is what Swamiji called 'evil in the garb of good' .

Reproducing that 'bhajan' to Sadhaks so that they may never get

enticed to the juiciness of the same:

 

SANSAAR SE BHAGE PHIRATE HO BHAGWAAN KO TUM KYAA PAOGE ! IS JANAM KO

BHI APNA NA SAKE, US JANAM MAIN BHI PACHHTAOGE !!

 

You are running away from the world, how will you get God? You are

not able to enjoy this world properly, you will repent up there

(after death) also.

 

YEH BHOG BHI EK TAPASYA HAI, TUM TYAAG KE MARE KYAA JANO! APMAAN

RACHIYATA KA HOGA, RACHNA KO AGAR THUKRAOGE !!

 

This 'bhog' (consumption of worldly pleasures- say alcohol) is also

an austerity. You are not able to appreciate it because of pre

conceived notion of " renunciation/sacrifice " . You shall be

insulting the Creator , if you reject/renounce His creation !!

 

HAM KAHATE HAIN YEH JAG APNA HAI, TUM KAHATE HO JHOOTHA SAPANA HAI !

HAM JANAM BITAA KAR JAYENGE, TUM JANAM GAVAA KAR JAOGE!!

 

I say that this world is " mine " . You say that this world is false

and dream. I will win and live in this world and then die, you will

lose in this world and then die.

 

YEH PAAP HAI KYAA YEH PUNYA HAI KYAA, REETO PAR DHARAM KI MOHARE

HAIN ! HAR YUG MAIN BADALATE DHARMO KO KAISE ADARSH BANAAOGE !!

 

What is " paap " (sin) ? What is " punya " ( virtue). They are only

rituals on which there is a stamp of 'dharma'. How can you idolise

that 'dharma' which changes in every 'yuga' (changes with time) ?

 

Hubby carried these lines to his heart. Once he asked Swamiji- Sir

everything has been made by God, why not consume it? Do we not

insult Creator if we reject creation? The Great Swamiji replied- God

has made poison also, stool also, will you eat it? He became

speechless !! That changed him ! Today he says each and every line

of this song is wrong !

 

That is how evil comes in the garb of good, Divine Sadhaks in this

Kaliyuga !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

Hari Om

 

As per my experience a Karma Yogi sheds his ego automatically by

serving others so much so that in the end 'server', 'servicee'

and 'service' all three become one element. 'Good qualities' in a

human are the part of his very natural self and are never required

to be renounced- be it tyaag (sacrifice/renunciation) or forgiveness

or compassion , or tolerance or truthfulness, or humility or non

violence -they all are 'divine properties' - the very nature of

Paramatma ! Can Sun renounce light? I agree with Brother Mike- ego

can't be killed with ego- never ! It is only

sacrifice/renunciation/tyaag of " mineness " that kills ego and of

course the grace of Paramatma to the surrendered devotee. What kind

of ego a mom carries while feeding her children?

 

I agree with Madanji Kaura. We must act as per Scriptures. Only

Scriptures are the proof or the yardsticks of ideal conduct.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Shree Hari

 

Dear Sathyanarayanji

 

Minor correction - In your Mahabharat example - Arjuna brings

Ashwathama to Draupadi and not to Kunti.

 

Thank you for beautiful illustrations, they are indeed very

inspiring and fitting to the duty of the householder. Nothing

personal, would like to share a common observation - in few

instances, there have been great responses from our learned scholars

in Gita-talk forum but at times, the question at hand has not been

specifically addressed. Our moderators have been very patient about

this. Pls. forgive me for being so blunt about this observation,

kindly take my comments in a constructive way only.

 

Thanks to Gee Waman for posing a good question -

 

WHAT IS HOUSEHOLDER'S DUTY ACCORDING TO GITAJI?

 

In this particular setting, as a Kshatriya, Arjuna's duty is to

fight the war, protect the masses from the unrighteousness rule.

Depending upon the setting, circumstances and the situation at hand,

the individual's duty does vary, Arjuna too is a householder, in

household circumstances he will be playing a different role, his

duty would not be fighting the war. But the principles outlined in

our scriptures do apply: the householder's duty is described broadly

in Gitaji much in detail in many verses but for the sake of brevity,

following few are referenced here:

 

Gita: (2/ 31-38), (2/48),

(3/8-9) (3-19), (3-21), (3-35),

(16/24)

 

Gita 2-38

" :sukhadukhe same krtva, labhalabhau jayajayau

tato yudhaya yujsave, nai 'vam papam avapsyasi "

 

Meaning:

Treating alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat,

get ready for the fight (Arjuna's duty in this setting), then,

fighting thus you will not incur sin.

 

Gita 2-48

" yogasthah kuru karmani, sangam tyaktva dhanamjaya

sidhyasidhyoh samo bhutva, samatvam yoga ecyate "

 

Meaning:

Established in Yoga, perform your duty O Dhanamjaya (Arjuna),

abandoning attachment, being even-minded in success and failure;

even-mindedness is called Yoga.

 

Gita 3-19

" tasmad asaktah satatam, kayam karma samacara

asakto hy acaran karma, param apnoti purushah "

 

Meaning:

Therefore, always efficiently do your duty without attachment. Doing

work without attachment, man attains the Supreme.

 

Gita 16-24

" tasmac chastram pramanam te, karyakaryavasthitau

jnatva sastravidhanoktam, karma karatum iha 'rhasi "

 

Meaning:

Therefore, let the scripture be your authority in determining what

ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Knowing this, you

should act only in accordance with the sanction of scripture.

 

Humble regards,

Madan Kaura

---------------------------

Simple answer could be....

 

To know your true self and help everyone around i.e. family and

friends

in knowing themselves.....while doing (without the doer ship)

everything else......

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

 

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear sadaks,

Scarifies--When Sri Rama asked to give away his throne to Bharat,

Puraan says HIS face was like just flowered lotus and brightness on

HIS face. The message was from Kaykeyi (Step mother) not from

Dasarath who actually said. Sri Rama never even verified the order

from Dasarath. Means sacrifies not done with benefit or done

knowingly (Sri Rama was not knowing the act was sacrifies). The best

part was when Sri Rama returned from forest HE first went to the

hunch back lady who spoilt Kaikeyi mind. DEAR SADAKS, kaikeyi mind

got corupted because of desire (which is ongoing discussion) of her

son. There is a saying Do Dharma with one hand let not the other

hand know. Concept of Sacrifies. A small iota thought of the action

in mind is enough to bring Ego in sacrifies.

 

Jesus crucified knows body soul are differant. If someone feels

happy in crucifing the body HE was silent. HE said, " Nothing happens

without the will of my Father " . So the action of sacrifies was not

owned by Jesus, the action owned by HIS father. Before dying HE

said, " Oh father in heavens let them be spared as they know not what

they are doing " . So the action of the crucifer was also disowned by

Jesus, which in turn disowned in mind level.

Five Bala Pandavas was slined by Aswathama after the war. Sri

Krishna and Arjuna catches Aswathama brings to Kunthi. She says let

Aswathama go since he is Guru`s son. Kunthi sacrifies was a concept.

Sadaks know Baktha Gora pot maker. His enimies broke his pots to

bits whitch he was carrying by cart for sale. He started picking the

bits from floor. The enemies asked whether he was mad. He replied

the bits mat hurt the passer by, so he is clearing the way. Pots was

sacrifice and picking denotes forgiveness. Both action were not even

in mind level Same Gora due to quarrel with his wife who said not to

touch her there after. Gora was NO way different from daily

household and in showing affection to his wife, but remained

untouched living in same bed room. Just a word from his wife in

anger not to touch her, he sacrificed his years of life which we

call it happiness.

 

Buddha walking for bath. Some said abusive language. He actually

forgot then and there, but his disciples reminded him. Buddha said

when did that happened. Mind level forgiveness which not owned. So

was Sri Rama, when some one asked forgivness for their misbehaviour

HE used to say " When it happened " . We store everything in our mind

to full extent, leaving no place for Bagavan WHO keeps on saying

leave it to ME (Surrender). Same thing said, in Christianity, " Empty

thyself, I will fill it " . We wont empty for Sri Krishna to come in,

still I hear from some sadaks, " Is God gone on holidays when I am

sufferings " .

 

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

On Ashokji's comments:

It is equally possible that acts of sacrifice and that of empathy

both can boost ego or both may not necessarily boost ego, depending

on the inner postures while acting.

As I understand it, Happiness is not contrary to anything or anyone,

as in Happiness there is " nobody " that is happy, is totally devoid

of " me " . It just is That, Happiness!

Our true nature, upon realization, is experienced as Happiness-

Bliss itself. It is welcoming Presence in us which welcomes

sacrifices with joy. It says " yes " to everything arising/appearing

in it, the reason why they arise/appear in the first place.

Sometimes doing things for others can also strengthen ego if in

thoughts " doer " creeps up while doing.

Forgiveness is the greatest virtue in practical life, sure. But in

forgiving if " forgiver " , disguised " me " shows up to forgive

the " other " , it may not make us peaceful, but can boost ego.

Forgiving, to me, is to overlook, or look over ego in others and

give understanding. It is to see that the person is not bad but

his/her acts are so, due to ignorance.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

 

Raam! Raam!!

 

We are all grateful to GT Moderators for sheer service being

rendered to humanity through management of this divine web site.

With reference to the topic under discussion , however, may I state

that for the first time I saw them agreeing to a totally wrong

statements. Since it is very dangerous from 20000 + sadhak point

of view hence I must point out. Consider the following:

 

" As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES.. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH AS HAPPINESS and ANAND AS BLISS. In your response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators) "

 

What does it clarify? How spirituality is bi-modal in nature? HOW

CAN EGO ITSELF RELINQUISH ITS CHERISHED I -ness or mineness? Answer

me ! How can Ego relinquish itself ? What are natural agents,

substantial agents, social agents, psychological agents ? What was

wrong in considering Happiness and Sukh as worldly and Anand as

Bliss to be the goal of each of us? Why we should equate them so

casually? How can an inert thing like TRUE FREEDOM " itself " empower

itself to execute on its own ........?

 

Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's beliefs is deceit and

hypocracy. ( WHAT BEHAVIOUR ? WHOSE BELIEF? ) /

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. ( WHY ONE SHOULD NOT

BECOME SPECIFIC? WHY ONE SHOULD NOT BECOME SADHAK? HOW ANYTHING WE

DO IS OK? DRUG ADDICTS ARE OK? )

 

Shyama C

-------------------------------

Radhey Radhey

 

Sadhak Sushilji ! I am happy you covered yourself quickly against a

difficult note which you wrote that " Sacrifice and Happiness are

contrary " . I agree fully with your explanation except Sr No 1. It is

Sr No 2 till the end which is absolutely correct. The fact is that

every sacrifice ( renunciation) instantly produces happiness.

INSTANTLY - even if that renunciation is of body waste. It is LAW !

That it boosts ego, etc they are all craps. NO RENUNCIATION CAN EVER

FUEL EGO ! Every renunciation reduces Ego ! There is no substance in

classifying Bhoga, Happiness (sukha) and Ananda and then eloquently

concluding - " Just words....nothing more " . " If you look closely -

Happiness is happiness " !! Sheer twist of words and nothing ,

nothing more than that ! They are not just words , there are

distinctions between them as wide as are south and north poles.

 

You have not looked closely at all Mr Naga Narain. Bhoga is

temporary. Bhoga is relative. ANANDA is absolute, self proven. Dont

say so loosely whatever comes to mind. Think deeply. Have you never

heard the word PEACE ? If yes, why did not you talk about it? What

is happiness ? Know Mr Naga and accept it humbly that- Happiness is

PEACE !! Says Gita - ASHANTASYA KUTAH SUKHAM ? ( Where is happiness

to him , who is not peaceful.? ) Dont just say for the sake of

saying.

 

But I have a request to make to GT Moderators. Please insist that

there is RELEVANCE to the Q asked in the response. Sushilji ,

Vyasji, Mike, Pratapji , Jee Jee Shashikalajee all talked

about " Duties of Household " and then came finer points of

discussion. Did Mr Naga Narain talk a single word reg the Question

of Mr GeeWaman? This is not how the deliberations become focussed

and fruitful.

 

Radhey Radhey

Nisha Chatterji

--------------------------------

To GT Moderators

 

Re-Read this again and kindly explain:

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-

triggered,whether it is established within or borrowed from around,

it has the same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the

ego. Anybody can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes

alcohol why he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be

always to forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard.

If you analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to

analyze), it becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at

least to forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there.

Whether a person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance

(e.g.coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans,

etc.),and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

WHAT DOES IT MEAN ? IT MEANS THAT IF YOU ARE CONSUMING DRUGS , (

substance triggered) - so long as under the influence of drugs you

are forgetting I- ness and Me- ness , you have established yourself

to the HIGHEST ANANDA level and have achieved the goal of human

birth ??? WHAT EXACTLY IS MEANT BY THIS?

 

And GT Moderators are thanking ?? along with boldly reference to

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj !!!

 

No ! I dont want to be a party to such ecstacies! Sorry. I regret I

became member of this group.

 

Audrey Rodrigues

--------------------------------

Hare Hare

 

Recent deliberations raise more Questions than answers. How can any

SADHAK boldly state that BHOGA/SUKHA/ANANDA are same thing, only a

matter of attitude, the effect is the same !!! Incomprehensible !

 

Statements such as same Ananda gets converted into happiness/bhoga

etc. are taking us no where in this WORD PLAY. The fact is that

there is huge difference in EXPERIENCE/ VERY NATURE/ VERY ELEMENTARY

of these elements. One is relative,transitory, unnatural, unreal and

another is ABSOLUTE and NATURAL, and real. What has attitude got

to do with it is totally unclear? and mainly what does it have to

do with the Question of Mr Gee Waman?

 

Bandook Singh Rathod

 

--------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Friends

I refer to the Gita Talk Moderator's request for explanation on my

statement 'Sacrifice and happiness are contrary'

1.Mr Naga Narayan has explained it correctly and adequately that the

notion or act of sacrifices boosts ego.

2.Act done with compassion and empathy for the benefit of other

will not boost ego and the act itself will be joy.

3.Sacrifice assumes forgoing something whereas in reality the

happiness by doing something for others is much more.

4.Sacrifice ,in a way ,focuses attention on other whereas happiness

focuses on self.

5.Sacrifice assumes owning and parting with something valuable

whereas for a sadhak nothing is owned and nothing is parted with.

 

If anything done which does not boosts ego it is ok but mind is vey

subtle

 

There is fundamentally no difference of opinion in importance of

sacrifice but one has to careful about it's impact on ego.

 

Mr Naga Narayan has also mentioned Forgiveness.

 

I am willing to forgive now is the first step in forgiving. Only

saying 'I forgive now completely and unconditionaly' is not

sufficient.Major issues and problems can be resolved by one

statement 'I am willing to forgive now' It can be made a daily 5-10

minutes routine every night.

 

But even more important is ' I seek forgiveness now' This single

sentence can work miracle.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

------------------------------

 

Q: SUKH = HAPPINESS; and ANAND = BLISS. In your response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand.

 

Normally, the scriptures refer to the same in three levels - Ananda,

Sukha and Bhoga. Though they all address the same experience, the

attitude behind the experience differ dramatically depending on the

ignorance and inertia hoarded in an individual.

 

Ananda is the state of bliss where there are no attitudes - nobody

to claim the ownership of the experience. As soon as an owner (the

ego) crops up, the absolute experience becomes a memory in the

owners perception. The recall of the absolute bliss is often

referred to as Sukha. When an external agent is given the authority

over the same experience - the belief that the joy is inherent in

the objects of pleasures - it is called Bhoga.

 

In other words,

 

Bhoga – The objects are let to own the (notion of) happiness – the

ego owns the anticipation of the experience thereupon. The

individual craves for the availability of the objects of pleasures

and enterst the whirlpool of miseries.

Sukha – The subject owns the (memory of) happiness - the ego owns

the belief of enjoyership. The individual elates in his own prowess

to command the experience. On the positive side, it allows the ego

to pause to wonder and ponder `what is the nature of the happiness

and what exactly is its focus?'

Ananda – The Happiness remains as The Absolute where both the

subject and the objects are dissolved loosing their identities and

ownerships altogether.

 

But, if you look at it closely, The Happiness is The Happiness

whether one entertained apparent notion (Bhoga) or inherent notion

(Sukha) or just be THAT (Ananada). All the words are referring to

the same … but the first two have no clue of what IT really is!

Space is space and time is time whether one is congizant of the same

or not. So is The Hapiness … IT is what IT IS, nothing else.

 

Just words … nothing more …

 

Q: ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is

having our eye on other's welfare and benefit. This is true

sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING,

ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS

BENEFICIAL TO US?

 

Yes! Many other realized souls also advise the same to the worldly

men the same way!! Nobody can tell otherwise in all sanity when

the " good living " is in the context.

 

I am not well-versed on Swamiji's works. But, whatever few things I

have understood so far from his works is as follows. Swamiji

emphasises on all the good qualities when the context is relative

life. All the qualities such as non-violence, sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. are good for keeping healthy relations within

the society on one hand and are good tools to turn one's attention

from " Bhoga " toward " Sukha " - from worldly dependence toward

individual independence to actualize the spiritual practices to

start with. Swamiji refers to this as journey from Prapancha Drishti

toward Viveka Drishti. In Viveka Drishti, clear discrimination (Ref:

Sadhan Sudhaa Sindhu, Vibhaga Yoga) of the perceived dualities and

polarities in absolute clarity from the perceptional view point

itself is of paramount importance to reveal the ignorance hidden in

ones apparent knowledge. At this level, one has to see through ones

appreciation to realize what really is " good " and what really

is " bad " even from the perceptional standards. That is essential to

lead a " good living " . And, " good living " is essential for

spirituality. No arguments there.

 

The same Swamiji also continues further while educating our Viveka

Drishti toward Bhagavaddrishti ( " Sukha " toward " Ananda " ) to explain

how even the acts of Deep Trans (Samadhi) - let alone regular

Bhajans, Meditations, and other good living qualities - belong to

the dominion of the Insentient World, The Prakriti. No trace of ego

is enetertained at The Ananda, The Sentient, The Purusha (Ref:

Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Bhagavattattva). The Avinaashee Ras that he

explains in the next chapter is an eye opener from this perspective.

Only THAT is present and nothing else - not even Samadhi in that

Sahaja Sthiti.

 

Therefore, it depends on the context. A Bhogi needs to be educated

to become a Sukhi … and a Sukhi seeks Ananda naturally. In the first

phase, good qualities should be imbibed … in the second phase, even

that should be dropped. Interestingly, there is no sequence in these

phases … we, as seekers, often oscillate between the three states of

happiness (Bhoga, Sukha and Ananda) due to the inertia and ignorance

gravitated within. Till we purge the lump of ignorance and inertia

out we cannot help it. However, pragmatic appreciation (Yathaartha

Gnyaana) of what we do, how we do and who we are is essential.

Somehow, I am fascinated by the second phase more than the first.

That is all. It does not mean that the first phase is of any

insignificance.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

As our Moderators note Mike's post, I would also say yes, we are a

one big (happy) family. It is happy family because happiness comes

from our bigness. If we feel divided and shrunk, we don't feel

happy. Our bigness makes us integrally one and acts as if we are

one, and hence leaves no room for conflict inherent in division.

Such bigness manifests in well being of all because whoever does

whatever is for well being of one and all.

Secondly I want to build on what Shashikalaji said on Ego.

Ego is a " sense " (perception) of separation in our Consciousness-

Atman, which is ONE, and cannot be divided into many.

This sense is also called " me " or " I " , mistaken to be an

independently existing entity.

This " me " is only a thought in mind or a feeling/sensation

(pains/pleasures) in body that we identify with and say its " me "

or " I " . Once there is " me " , mineness ensues! If we don't identify

body as " me " just as toddlers don't, there cannot be " mineness " .

Mineness can be many but " me " is only one appearing as many

mineness. " me " is hiding place for mineness.

This " me " becomes stronger with external sense perception which we

call world " out there " and thus we say " not-I or not-me " . Thus not-I

or not-me gives more credibility to " me " and viceversa. Soon the

mere sense becomes reality.

Strangly enough, " me " is never our experience! When examined, our

experience seems to be of being conscious of thoughts and sensations

of forms/objects perceived/conceived only. In otherwords,

Consciousness is the only experience upon which we superimpose body-

mind-world. Then to this-body-mind we say " me " and the other-bodies-

world become not-me.

Experientially the body appears in mind as thought; the mind and the

world, both, appear as thoughts in Consciousness. This very

Consciousness is Atman, or Brahman or Reality or Pure Soul, or

Pure " Presence-I AM " or Existence which is conscious of itself

called SELF!

SELF is Sat-Chit experience(anubhutirupah). As such it is never

embodied, rather body-mind-world are in It, It permeates the entire

universe. Everything is in It as Itself.

IF one can see the truth of it, one gets liberated, JeevnMukta.

This is ONE TRUTH, all else is Bondage!

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

In response to the comment by the moderators, to my somewhat

truncated response, I have contemplated Gitaji for what was

underlying my thoughts.

 

'A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on.

 

Taking the verses from Gitaji posted below, and looking at a profile

of a family head who has gained these attributes:

 

The man of restraint is awake

In what is night for all beings;

That in which all beings awake

Is night for the wise one who sees. B.G. 2(69)

 

The highest Self of him who has

Conquered himself and is peaceful,

Is steadfast in cold, heat, pleasure,

Pain; and honor and dishonor. B.G. 6(7)

The yogi who is content in

Knowledge and discrimination,

With senses conquered–unto him

Earth, stone, and gold are all the same. B.G. 6(8)

He attains eminence who looks

The same on well-wishers, friends, foes,

Neutral to enemies and kin,

The righteous and the unrighteous. B.G. 6(9)

 

Would not get caught up with mob mentality, understanding his duty

to create a wise and functioning family.

Being at peace, with the Divine shining through, will do what is

right, will not show favoritism, see the worth in all, including the

members of ones family. (Not to be one eyed, about the family or its

members).

Not to waste effort, in trying to buy affection within the family

with trinkets and toys even if they are sports cars etc.

Understanding that one should not judge, as all is working out as it

will (Lila). But with compassion and love one can offer sound

guidance.

(These attributes are far more global than family, but actually are

we not one big family?)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor).

 

---------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

MIKE! Thank you! BEAUTIFULLY SAID. Are we not one big family? Thus

is our PRIMARY duty AS A " ONE BIG " FAMILY MAN - " Sarvabhootahite

rataah " (Gita 12:4)? That is - May we all be absorbed in the well

being of all. What is sadhak's understanding regarding this? Does

Gita speak at all of the smaller family nucleas that we think off as

family?

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Excellent Q by GT Moderators ! There are two ahams (egos) . One that

relates with " existence " of the self (I exist) . A Jnana Yogi

establishes himself into that only. That remains in all three yogis-

Jnana, Bhakti and Karma yogis, even after liberation/kalyaan.

 

There is " another " ego which is connecting " self " (pure soul) to

inert (to world - body/mind/intellect). It is always " worldly " ego.

I am body, I am Doctor, I am rich etc. This " me " gets destroyed with

destruction of " mine " immediately as a law. What remains behind is

pure unattached free " self " !

Jeevan Mukta. Liberated while living. Janaka, Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj, Vaashishtha, Kaak Bhusandi etc had become liberated before

merging with Brahma. Their binding ego had destroyed but " I exist "

this awareness remained. " I " thus remained there. But that " I "

always remained in " Equanimity " mode- unattached !

 

In fact 'desire', 'spriha' , 'mamata' and 'ahankaar' all four are

one element only-worldly ego ! Desire is gross. " Spriha " (worry for

basic needs for body ) is subtle than desire. " Mamata " (mineness) is

more subtle than " spriha " . Ego (me) is the subtlest among the four

names of same element. Hence in " effect " you renounce

fully " mamata " , you will become " egoless " and vice versa !

 

As regards reference of Gita/Swamiji - please refer pg 137 of Sadhak

Sanjeevani where Swamiji while commenting upon BG 2:71 had stated

exactly what I have written. Read particularly second last para on

pg 137 (Hindi) of Sadhak Sanjeevani !

 

When the body is not " mine " , then I don't need anything . Desire

for what? Worry for what? When nothing is " mine " then what remains

in " me " ?

" Me " in fact is always with reference to worldly possessions, body

etc. When " mine " is gone, very basis for " me " is gone !! What

remained behind is " I exist " - this awareness only ! Unattached,

Free, Liberated - me - I exist !!

 

A Karma yogi (Grihashtha-houeshold generally) strives to

renounce " mineness " - mamata by putting his/her body, belongings,

powers etc fully into the service of the world. By doing that

his/her " mineness " first gets destroyed and thereupon ego (me -ness)

gets purified of " worldly impact/connection " ! A Jnana Yogi first

eliminates " me-ness " (ahankaar- I am doer) by renouncing worldly

activities in favour of nature ( I am not body. I don't do

anything ) and thereupon his/her mamata gets renounced. A Bhakti

yogi changes his " me-ness " from worldly to Godly ( I am of God ) and

mineness from worldly to Godly (ONLY God is mine) and thus becomes

egoless and mamtaless !! All three thus renounce " connection with

inert- world - body/mind/intellect/activity/matter " . " I exist " -

this awareness remains in them till death ! They use body, mind,

intellect - but in " equanimous mode " - unattached !!

 

Thanks ! Nothing pleases me more than such Question / Answer

sessions. A really good Question !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

THANK YOU JEE JEE! (GT MODERATORS)

--------------------------------

Thanks for the wonderful questions …

 

How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit - the

ego?

Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family man?

Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there must

be certain duties of a Householder?

 

Let us see …

 

Q: How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit -

the ego?

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-triggered,

whether it is established within or borrowed from around, it has the

same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the ego. Anybody

can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes alcohol why

he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be always to

forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard. If you

analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to analyze), it

becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at least to

forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there. Whether a

person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance (e.g.

coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans, etc.),

and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

Its uniques aspect of the happiness is its independence of all the

media through which one attains it. Also, the happiness should be

ever present everywhere. Otherwise, how can one attain it

irresepctive of the media chosen? How can one attain the same every

time consistently? How can anybody attain it any time anywhere? This

reinforces the theory that it is present across time and space,

rather it transcends space and time and therefore everything else.

 

When it is independent of everything, why should one develop

dependence on anything else? When it is ever-present everywhere in

abundance, why every one seem to struggle to pursue the same as if

in a panick that there is a scarcity of the same? That remains the

puzzle for everyone.

 

The reason why we loose sight of the happiness is the corruption

smeared by the ego who comes back to action claiming ownership over

the erstwhile experience of the happiness. Knowing the un-ownable

nature of the happiness subconciously, the ego enforces its

authority further by making a belief that the happiness is hidden in

the objects and actions because it feels it can manipulate them.

Without its own knowledge, it becomes a slave to the same ideas,

actions and objects which are its slaves in its belief. That is the

weakness of the ego … dependence on external entities such as

objects, actions and ideas to believe the presence of the happiness.

It does not understand, rather it refuses to understand, that the

very same ideas, actions or objects could provide happiness only by

removing itself from its cognition by disconnecting it from the

mechanism of relating itself to the I-ness and Mine-ness in real.

Due to its ignorance of what is happening, it becomes addicted to

the very notions, actions and objects to " forget " itself.

 

As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH = HAPPINESS and ANAND = BLISS. In you response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators)

 

Q: Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family

man?

 

When one is established in CONTENTMENT and FREEDOM how can he ever

disturb others?! Even when one is working toward THAT, how can there

be exploitation of others? Compassion floods out when one is filled

with Freedom and Contentment; compassion oozes out even when one's

vision is fixed toward THAT. Such a person can never be

inconsiderate to his environment - be it the family, or colleagues,

or fellow travellers, or any stranger on the street. Compassion to

others is an eventuality, a natural eventuality ascertaining the

abundance of happiness within. Apparent lack of compassion is the

symptom of the inherent lack of contentment and freedom. One has to

dig deep through the apparent symptom toward the inherent root cause

to correct the corruption at deeper and deeper layers. THAT TO ME IS

THE SPIRITUALITY. Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's

beliefs is deceit and hypocracy.

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. All the disturbances of

an ocean is superficial … the deeper we dive, the more peaceful it

is … the abyss of all the bliss is inherent in our depths

where " what we think we do " as well as " what we think we are " are

both annihilated without traces.

 

Q: Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there

must be certain duties of a Householder?

 

The notions of sacrifice, forgiving, etc. have a corrupt notion

thanks to our ego. What is meant really to people in common sense is

that, a person forgoes his happiness for others' happiness in these

acts. That means, the ownership is strongly enseeded in such

notions. Typically, sacrifice would mean " Yes that is mine, but I do

not mind giving to the other man so that he can be happy with! " Same

way, forgiving typically means, " Yes the other fellow did something

wrong; but it is OK; let me be magnanimous enough not to react; poor

fellow he does not know what he is doing! " Do you see the strength

of ownership in a subtle camafluage here? That is dangerous for

spirituality.

 

In contentment, there is no room for ideas such as sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. Whatever a content man does looks like sacrifice

as he is not staking for any fruits from the actions that flow out

of him. Also, since whatever the environemnt does to him are lost in

the oblivion of the contentment within and hence cannot invoke any

reaction at all. Therefore, it sounds like he is forgiving

everything that is happening around. To him … there is no sacrifice

and no forgiving. For him, " there is nothing mine to aid others " .

Then how can there be a notion of sacrifice? For him, " nothing can

go wrong as there is nothing wrong in the first place " . Then how can

there be a notion of forgiving? Obviously both notions belong to the

others who harbor their respective egoes!

 

(THANK YOU ! WE SEE NOW THE POINT. ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS

EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is having our eye on other's

welfare and benefit. This is true sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO

SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING, ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG

I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS BENEFICIAL TO US? From Gita Talk

Moderators).

 

For social and personal upliftment, a softer ego is better than the

crude one, I agree. Notions such as sacrifice, forgiving, etc. are

very useful there. In spiritual upliftment, ego is not acceptable in

any form. When the ego itself is annihilated in spiritual

upliftment, all other upliftments are just natural within that. That

is the beauty of spirituality versus " good living " . " Good living "

(Samaja Dharma) requires many tenets and doctrines as it still

remains variant and circumstantial. Spirituality (Sanaatana Dharma),

on the other hand, is eteranl and unique. It transcends all the

variations as well as the variants catergorically. The happiness

(Ananda) is its abode.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

The moment one applies self conscience the question of evaluation of

the task sets in, i.e., result is viewed and assessed whether it is

a " good " or " bad " job to do. The assigned job has to be done without

any consideration to that aspect.Could the doubt be cleared by this

humble person ? Namaste..

 

 

 

 

Grihastha - Household is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity) which a

human being is subjected to. No other tapasya is as subtle, as

fierce and as consuming as is that of a household. One must always ,

therefore, remember this 'grihastha' is a school for one's

emancipation and address the same accordingly.

 

Barin Chatterjee

------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

Look at the family of Lord Shiva ! Lord Shiva sports garland of

skulls and serpent. Lord Shiva's vehicle is bull. Parvatiji on the

contrary is always wearing beautiful ornaments. Parvatiji's vehicle

is Lion. Their son, Lord Ganesha's vehicle is mouse. Their second

son Lord Karthikeya's vehicle is peacock. The serpent and mouse are

by birth fierce enemies. Mouse is the food of serpent. Peacock and

serpent are enemies. Peacock kills serpent. Lion and bull are

enemies. Bull is food for lion. Bitter enemies of each other. All in

one family. But, all live in perfect harmony and comfortably.

 

JUST AS: In Lord Shiva's family all members have different and

contrasting natures, still there is unity in the family.

 

SIMILARLY: All members of any household have different natures, and

different perspectives, and still there can be unity.

 

How? Each member should look at his role and duty only and not at

other's role and duty. One should always strive to give pleasure to

other. " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST " - should be the 'bhava'

(inner expression) of a Grihastha.

 

A grihastha in order to provide pleasure to other family members,

must renounce his own pleasures. That renunciation in fact is true

austerity ! It is law that without renouncing your own pleasure, you

can't provide happiness to others.

 

1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures- if you do these, you have lived

well in the grihashtha.

 

Sadhaks should remember that it is in Grihastha only- each and every

household, no exceptions- that you get practical opportunities to

get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual likings

and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha) and learn fine points of

real " karma yoga " and " bhakti yoga " . Grihashtha Ashram (Household)

is the most important and most beneficial phase of each human being.

One must therefore make best use of it. It is in grihastha, seeds of

of your old age are sown.

 

Above all, in Grihastha it is the utmost duty of a male is to see

God in his parents. If a grihashtha merely obeys his parents , his

life becomes divine. His old age becomes ideal.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

" O descendant of Bharata, at that time Krishna, smiling, in the midst

of both the armies, spoke the following words to the grief-stricken

Arjuna. " B.G. 2:10

 

The 'Smile of Krishna', that is pregnant with, Divine Love,

Compassion, and Wisdom.

 

If one is of a nature to have these qualities in the household,

then peace and love will prevail.

 

Being detached from the Ego Wars, will give one the ability to be of

real value to all within the family sphere, (and those who know you).

 

A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on. (PLEASE ELABORATE ON THE QUALITIES - FROM

GITA TALK MODERATORS)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor)

--------------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally. Doing happens while

doer disappears! At all stages and in all roles duties will be

performed within the guidelines of Dharma as appropriate for the

circumstances one is placed, because one is Loving what has to be

done.

Without feeling such Love, duty feels like forced upon one, and

becomes chores, and boring! With Love, it is not so much as duty,

that one has to do, but rather its a Joy to do it.

So the real issue boils down to " what stops such Love to flow

freely? " Not realizing what I truly AM.

However, we can be guided by wisdom of Gita to ultimately realize

our true nature by performing duties in the best possible ways we

know, with devotion, with Love and without any expectations or

favors. Doing in such a way is its own reward, Yoga itself,

incorporating Yogah Karmashu Kaushalam principle of Gita

So as a householder with family, one takes care of those who are

entrusted to one by God. with an attitude of seeing the family as

gift from God, and serving them is to serve God. That is all!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Grihastha is the feeder to all other ashrams. Saints also get food

from households only. The beauty of grihastha ashram is that " you

can't run away " from your duties. You must do your duties- else

shatterred home ! A sadhu if he confronts with something

unpleasant , he will simply take his kamandal and walk away from the

scene. But a household can not ! That is " austerity " !

 

Rule of Grihastha is simple- Serve, Serve and serve ! Do your duty !

It is a law that service/duty destroys " mamata " . It is also a law

that if mamata is destroyed, ego gets destroyed automatically. You

instantly realise God if mamata (mine) is destroyed. What else ego

consists except " me " ? Where is the " me " when " mine " is

destroyed? " Me " (ego) and " Mine " ( mamata) are the chains which bind

a human being to the world. From this only Raag and Dvesha emerge !

Household is the place where you can easily -simply by serving the

family-destroy them decisively and achieve the very purpose for

which the human life has been given to you !

 

" Nirmamo Nirahankarasya sa shanti madi gachhati " - He who has

become " minenessless " and " egoless " gets permanent Peace and

liberation.

 

As simple as that !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

(Shashikalaji, ANY REFERENCE? CAN ONE NOT BE FREE OF MAMTA (free

of mine-ness)BUT STILL HAVE SENSE OF I-NESS (EGOISM)? GT

MODERATORS)

 

--------------------------

Friends

1.Arjuna was a Gruhastha, a family man and a householder.The

teachings applicable to Arjuna is applicable to

Gruhastha or householder.

2.The difference between Gruhastha and Sannyasi is difference in

objects of desire or attachment. King Janak devoid of attachment

was better and spiritually advanced than many Cannabis.

3.As rightly mentioned by Shri Naga Narayana the only duty of human

beings is to be happy. It is the substance,core and outcome of all

knowledge and efforts.

4.God is also called 'SAT CHIT ANAND' meaning mind/heart filled

with indestructible/permanent joy.Such state is not dependent on

others.

5.Happiness or Joy cannot be at other's cost or expense.

6.Sacrifice and happiness are contrary. Sacrifice will not provide

happiness. (KINDLY EXPLAIN - FROM GITA TALK MODERATOR)

7.According to Gita ,the only duty is to unite with God because that

alone can be source of happiness.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

KAMA--ARTHA--MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

The 4 steps Grahastha need to do.

But the Grahasta has to do and live as per sastras that Bagavan

says. Grahasth has lot of duties on shoulder as Kunthi had. But

Kunthi did well.

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

duty=dharama ?

Family or no family, the only dharma of a man is to unite with God.

1.Accept God is mine and family belongs to God. So serve the family

considering it as a gift given to you by God, with the capacity

given to you by God, with the tools given to you by God.

 

2.Choose any path-gyaan yoga, bhakti yoga or karma yoga. The common

element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme is the most important.

Many hard working people think that they are following karma yoga,

but they take all responsibily on themselves, they worry, they

insist on certain outcome, they trust their own strength, to me they

are not Yogi.

 

yoga-sthah kuru karmani

sangam tyaktva dhananjaya

siddhy-asiddhyoh samo bhutva

samatvam yoga ucyate

 

Establish yr self in Yoga and perform yr duties,abandon all

attachment to success or failure. Such evenness of mind is called

yoga.....

 

Do whatever God wants you to do while reaiming established in yoga.

with Love,

a sadhika

 

Sadhna Karigar

-----------------------

 

 

Hi,

According to scriptures, 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of

gratitude. Human being is bound to do duties at various levels of

his life i.e Saisavam, Balyam, Kaumaram and Vardhakyam. In Kaumaram

normaly one takes up life of a householder or Grihastha. A

householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha. To fully live

the life of a human the operation manual called Gita is available

for reference at any level for us.

 

with love, krishnadasan.

----------------------------

 

Dear Sadhak,

Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined elsewhere. One is not to analyze it, nor aspire for it.

Whatever comes in the way that has to be performed with all

sincerity, without having any interest in the result. One has been

given only the right of execution of the assigned work, neither the

cause of it nor the effect.(Karmanye ebo te adhikara, kodachono

faleshu ma, In Gita-II.47).

Option of becoming a Family man was also assigned which has its own

format. The format has also to be strictly followed, as it comes in

the way, but never one can apply his self conscience about

evaluation of the quality of the work assigned. (karmasanginam

agynang budhivedang na jonoyet bidwan jukto sarba karmani sadacharan

jojayet...Gita III-26)

 

BARIN CHATTERJEE

 

Warm regards

--------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR BARINJI,

Kindly explain what you mean in the last paragraph ... " never one can

apply his self conscience....... " .

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

--------------------------

There is ONLY ONE DUTY for all irrespective of what they do ...

BEING HAPPY!

 

As Shankara says,

 

Jatilo mundee lunchita keshah kashaayaambra bahukrita veshah |

Pashyannapi cha na pashyati mudhah udaranimittam bahukritaveshah ||

 

everyone has to do something or the other. One claims to be a house-

holder having no clue of what is house and what is holding. So is a

Sanyasi equally clueless of what Sanyasa means. One may ask, what is

the basis to doubt of their knowledge upon what they are doing?

Happiness, my dear friend. One who is unhappy does not where he

is ... because he does not know what he is doing ... because he does

not know who he is ...

 

Whether you are happy with what you are doing depends on your

intellect. Whether you are happy with what you are depends on your

wisdom. The question really is ... whether you want to be happy with

what you are doing ... or with what you are.

 

If you want to be happy with what you do ... many questions

follow ... how is my " doing " related to happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary as I see ... then, how much " doing " is

required to maintain the derivative happiness?

 

The " doing " is multitude and variant ... then how many " doings "

should I do to derive effective happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary, multitude and variant, how can I ever say

that the " happiness-es " derived from my various " doings " is really

the happiness?

 

Now the first question looms around stronger ... has the " doing "

anything to do with the happiness at all?!

 

I you want you to be happy with what you are ... then who cares what

you do? Stick with what you think you are.

 

Then comes the question, " Am I the one that I think that I am? "

 

Then, my dear friend, the clock starts ticking for you toward the

real happiness ... because you will find that you are not whatever

you thought as, perpetually. You will discover that all your

thoughts of " what you are " were in fact your " doings " and

never " you " . Then you may also realize that your happiness were

perpetually consumed by these parasites ... your identities ...

your " doings " and your " are-s " . As far as we are cognizant of what

we " are " and what we " do " , we are OK ... we can interrogate them

further.

 

Relating " what we do " and " what we are " to the happiness is an

absurd baseless logic ... it is called " Kaakataaleeya Nyaaya " . A

crow sits on a palm tree. Palm fruit falls down. The observer says,

the palm fruit falls down when a crow sits on the tree. The observer

beleives that there is a relation having not given any attention to

what relation means! Being happy is neither in " what we do " nor

in " what we think we are " . Both are the two faces of the same coing -

IDENTITY, the ego. In fact, if you were ever happy, my dear friend,

it was ONLY WHEN you had kept this coin away in your pocket.

 

Therefore, whatever you are and whatever you do is OK as far you are

happy. Because your happiness indicates the absence of the true

culprit - the ego. If we stick to the happiness as such, we will

then realize that " what is needed is to throw away this fellow, the

ego. Then what I do does not matter ... and what I am does not

matter ... I am happy as I should be! " . In my opinion, that is

spirituality.

 

Therefore, I see only one rule for spirituality irrespective of what

we are and what we do ... being happy ... being happy at the

core ... being nothing but happiness as such.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

---------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR NAGA NARAYANA JI, Yes! Being happy at the core is key ! One

doubt arises is can one be happy at another's expense as a

householder/family man? Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides

being happy, there must be certain duties of a Householder. Kindly

explain .. how one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true

culprit - the ego?

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

---------------------------

Interesting question......

 

It is all about knowing your true self.........while playing the

role whatever it may be........

Start with positive thought then to Happy thought and try to shift

to no thoughts....

 

As a householder even reaching to the stage of keeping happy

thoughts all the time works very fine and

gives great results and then the ultimate may happen too....while

the role of a householder goes on

perfectly, joyously........

 

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

Duties of a Gruastha

 

Very simple I believe. I know I don't write much because I am afraid

I may offend some people as I have my own strong views as well.

 

It is nice that you used the word DUTY. Life is a duty and one has

to understand the difference between duty and Maya. Maya attaches

you to the physical manifestation, duty is done as an entity and not

shrouded in Maya. As a father, mother, brother son, sister etc one

performs duty. Thus Moksha is easier to attain.

 

Happy to call this my 2 cents.

shashi dave

------------------------------

SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES

 

- only dharma of a man is to unite with God

- Accept God is mine and family belongs to God.

- Follow any path, common element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme

- 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of gratitude.

- householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha

- operation manual called Gita is ever available to us

- Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined

- Duty is to be performed with all sincerity, without attachment to

the result

- Being Happy at the core

- Know your true self, all else is a role

- From positive to happy to no thoughts!

- role of a householder goes on perfectly, joyously

- Life is a duty and one has to understand the difference between

duty and Maya

- Householder life is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity)

- Attitude must be - " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST "

- 1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures

- When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally.

- get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual

likings and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha)

- utmost duty of a male is to see God in his parents

- become free of mamta and ahamtaa by serve, serve, serve.

- Free of I-ness and Mine-ness.

- DHARMA - ARTHA - KAMA- MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

 

 

 

 

-------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

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Dear Sadhakas, Namakar

 

Please enlighten me, regarding what are the duties of a Gruhastha

(family man, householder), according to Geetaji.

 

....Gee Waman

-------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

Grihastha (Household) is a place where by serving 'others' a person

must strive to get freedom from the ocean of birth and death. When

you 'serve' invariably your desire (gross form of ego) takes a hit.

Grihasthas therefore MUST use 'viveka'- discrimination frequently in

day to day life.

 

Trees also live; and so do animals and birds. He alone lives (in

essence) whose mind is alive by reflection. One must in Grihastha

(household) inculcate 'good qualities' in him. Human life itself and

in that too the ashram of 'grihastha' provides you opportunity of

being 'noble' . One must never drop 'nobleness' in him. NEVER !

Human life is given to renounce Bhog/sukha/happiness not to seek it.

Real happiness lies in sacrifice/renunciation. Peace emerges out of

renunciation( BG 12:12 ) . Trust Scriptures only, as Madanji Kaura

said.

 

Those who shun nobleness or contemplate dropping them are aged asses-

carrying burdens only. The scriptures is a burden for one without

discrimination; knowledge is a burden for the passionate(bhogi) ;

mind is a burden for one WITHOUT PEACE,( for one who does not

renounce or sacrifice worldly pleasures/possessions in favour of

family members/ others/world at large) and the body is a burden for

one who does not know SELF or tries to erase/forget his true

identity. For such people, without discrimination, the mind runs in

vain from here and from there perplexed, just as a dog from distance

to a greater distance in a village.

 

In Grihastha (household) therefore one has excellent opportunity of

deriving PEACE by merely renunciation of his own happiness and

possessions in favour of family members/ world at large.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

For every sadhak " household " is a challenge. Here he has to " do " !

How to be a " great doer " ? Read Scriptures to know that, as

suggested by Sadhak Madanji Kaura !

 

He is called a great 'grihashtha' (householder):-

 

1 Who performs duties prescribed by the scriptures according to

circumstances, with a mind free from doubt or fear.

 

2 Who assumes indifferently, love and hate, pleasure and pain,

likeable or unlikeable works, and fruit/reward and its absence

 

3 Who acts with his excitement/anxiety gone, who is possessed of

silence, free from egotism, stainless and is one who has given up

jeolousy.

 

4 Whose mind is mind is not stained by bad or improper doubt in

considerations of right and wrong in good and bad actions

 

5 Who neither regrets nor rises in his mood due to a pure and even

mind and is free from excitement and joy.

 

6 Who undertaking action and non-action and doership, remaining

indifferent , becomes exceedingly even internally.

 

7 Who , passing through weal and woe, does not indeed give up his

equanimity, and is calm by his very nature

 

8 Whose mind is quite even in circumstances of birth, existence,

death and among objects having rise and fall.

 

9 WHO SERVES, SERVES and SERVES to those people whom he

considers " mine " with those things which he considers to be " mine " -

thus relinquishes what is " mine " and thereby kills the very shelter

of " mineness " - the ME or I-ness !!

 

There is no doubt that all creatures, of whatever nature, strive

only for happiness. So does a 'householder'. Here

the 'discrimination' (viveka) plays vital role. He must distinguish

between Bhoga/happiness and Ananda/Bliss. Scriptures distinguish

categorically. Why? Because it is vital to do ! We must understand

the difference between temporary and permanent, real and unreal,

relative and absolute. When Sadhaks do so, with the help of Viveka,

then surely ugliness will be seen by them among the lovely; non

being on top of being; impermanence will be observed among the

permanence, and unreality among the seemingly real objects.

 

Bhogas ( seemingly real but actually unreal- objects of pleasure and

enjoyment of objects of sense) are only the expanded hoods of,

Kaliya Naga (SERPENT) referred in Scriptures (Shreemad Bhagavatam)

during description of Shree Krishna Leela . They just sting when

touched a little.

 

Which wise men and more particularly which SADHAK should take

delight in those Bhogas, under disguise of Ananda, which bhogas are

likes the shades of umbrellas in the form of exhanded hoods of

Nagas - serpents ? No one should, in fact. Never a grihastha , never

a sadhak, never a human being. NEVER !

 

And THUS mineness gets destroyed, and THUS as suggested by Brother

Mike entire world becomes a large family. You (water) can perceive

ocean only when you (it) come (s) out of small water pot !! Hence

serve first those who you consider " me/mine " . That breaks the

bottle !!

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Ram Ram

 

Last night I was hearing SATSANG of MAHARAJ JI of the day of Since

April-1991, that time there is a bright way in my mind that is WHAT

IS GEETA? MEANING OF GEETA? please rectify my mistake about above

question.

 

If there is a single mistake or wrong question then please " MUJE

BHOLA JAAN KE MAAF KAR DENA " " Consider me to be ignorant / innocent

and Forgive

me " according to MAHARAJ JI ( 18 April-

1991's satsang)

 

 

Jag Mohan

--------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

JAGAT BHAR KI ROSHNI KE LIYE, KARODO KI JINDAGI KE LIYE ..... SOORAJ

RE JALATE RAHNA !!

 

For spreading light in the dark universe, giving life to all , O

Sun .... Kindly keep burning !!

 

Words can never express our gratitude to all sadhaks in this forum.

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Tyaag / Bhog / Tapasya / Grihastha / Sin / Virtue !!

 

With permission of this Divine Forum Moderators , I would like to

narrate 'real life' description of aforesaid terms. Read it with

reference to 'Kaliyuga' trends and BG 18:32. Slightly long , but I

hope it will serve many : I got married very early and my Hubby then

was only 17 and me 15. He is very sharp but once we saw a movie

called 'Chitralekha'. There was one ' Kalyugi' song in that -

absolutely appeared even to the best of minds as Bhajan. My

hubby 'acted' on that temporarily and after paying penalty and upon

coming in touch with Swamiji , in early 80s , he realised grave

error. That is what Swamiji called 'evil in the garb of good' .

Reproducing that 'bhajan' to Sadhaks so that they may never get

enticed to the juiciness of the same:

 

SANSAAR SE BHAGE PHIRATE HO BHAGWAAN KO TUM KYAA PAOGE ! IS JANAM KO

BHI APNA NA SAKE, US JANAM MAIN BHI PACHHTAOGE !!

 

You are running away from the world, how will you get God? You are

not able to enjoy this world properly, you will repent up there

(after death) also.

 

YEH BHOG BHI EK TAPASYA HAI, TUM TYAAG KE MARE KYAA JANO! APMAAN

RACHIYATA KA HOGA, RACHNA KO AGAR THUKRAOGE !!

 

This 'bhog' (consumption of worldly pleasures- say alcohol) is also

an austerity. You are not able to appreciate it because of pre

conceived notion of " renunciation/sacrifice " . You shall be

insulting the Creator , if you reject/renounce His creation !!

 

HAM KAHATE HAIN YEH JAG APNA HAI, TUM KAHATE HO JHOOTHA SAPANA HAI !

HAM JANAM BITAA KAR JAYENGE, TUM JANAM GAVAA KAR JAOGE!!

 

I say that this world is " mine " . You say that this world is false

and dream. I will win and live in this world and then die, you will

lose in this world and then die.

 

YEH PAAP HAI KYAA YEH PUNYA HAI KYAA, REETO PAR DHARAM KI MOHARE

HAIN ! HAR YUG MAIN BADALATE DHARMO KO KAISE ADARSH BANAAOGE !!

 

What is " paap " (sin) ? What is " punya " ( virtue). They are only

rituals on which there is a stamp of 'dharma'. How can you idolise

that 'dharma' which changes in every 'yuga' (changes with time) ?

 

Hubby carried these lines to his heart. Once he asked Swamiji- Sir

everything has been made by God, why not consume it? Do we not

insult Creator if we reject creation? The Great Swamiji replied- God

has made poison also, stool also, will you eat it? He became

speechless !! That changed him ! Today he says each and every line

of this song is wrong !

 

That is how evil comes in the garb of good, Divine Sadhaks in this

Kaliyuga !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

Hari Om

 

As per my experience a Karma Yogi sheds his ego automatically by

serving others so much so that in the end 'server', 'servicee'

and 'service' all three become one element. 'Good qualities' in a

human are the part of his very natural self and are never required

to be renounced- be it tyaag (sacrifice/renunciation) or forgiveness

or compassion , or tolerance or truthfulness, or humility or non

violence -they all are 'divine properties' - the very nature of

Paramatma ! Can Sun renounce light? I agree with Brother Mike- ego

can't be killed with ego- never ! It is only

sacrifice/renunciation/tyaag of " mineness " that kills ego and of

course the grace of Paramatma to the surrendered devotee. What kind

of ego a mom carries while feeding her children?

 

I agree with Madanji Kaura. We must act as per Scriptures. Only

Scriptures are the proof or the yardsticks of ideal conduct.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Shree Hari

 

Dear Sathyanarayanji

 

Minor correction - In your Mahabharat example - Arjuna brings

Ashwathama to Draupadi and not to Kunti.

 

Thank you for beautiful illustrations, they are indeed very

inspiring and fitting to the duty of the householder. Nothing

personal, would like to share a common observation - in few

instances, there have been great responses from our learned scholars

in Gita-talk forum but at times, the question at hand has not been

specifically addressed. Our moderators have been very patient about

this. Pls. forgive me for being so blunt about this observation,

kindly take my comments in a constructive way only.

 

Thanks to Gee Waman for posing a good question -

 

WHAT IS HOUSEHOLDER'S DUTY ACCORDING TO GITAJI?

 

In this particular setting, as a Kshatriya, Arjuna's duty is to

fight the war, protect the masses from the unrighteousness rule.

Depending upon the setting, circumstances and the situation at hand,

the individual's duty does vary, Arjuna too is a householder, in

household circumstances he will be playing a different role, his

duty would not be fighting the war. But the principles outlined in

our scriptures do apply: the householder's duty is described broadly

in Gitaji much in detail in many verses but for the sake of brevity,

following few are referenced here:

 

Gita: (2/ 31-38), (2/48),

(3/8-9) (3-19), (3-21), (3-35),

(16/24)

 

Gita 2-38

" :sukhadukhe same krtva, labhalabhau jayajayau

tato yudhaya yujsave, nai 'vam papam avapsyasi "

 

Meaning:

Treating alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat,

get ready for the fight (Arjuna's duty in this setting), then,

fighting thus you will not incur sin.

 

Gita 2-48

" yogasthah kuru karmani, sangam tyaktva dhanamjaya

sidhyasidhyoh samo bhutva, samatvam yoga ecyate "

 

Meaning:

Established in Yoga, perform your duty O Dhanamjaya (Arjuna),

abandoning attachment, being even-minded in success and failure;

even-mindedness is called Yoga.

 

Gita 3-19

" tasmad asaktah satatam, kayam karma samacara

asakto hy acaran karma, param apnoti purushah "

 

Meaning:

Therefore, always efficiently do your duty without attachment. Doing

work without attachment, man attains the Supreme.

 

Gita 16-24

" tasmac chastram pramanam te, karyakaryavasthitau

jnatva sastravidhanoktam, karma karatum iha 'rhasi "

 

Meaning:

Therefore, let the scripture be your authority in determining what

ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Knowing this, you

should act only in accordance with the sanction of scripture.

 

Humble regards,

Madan Kaura

---------------------------

Simple answer could be....

 

To know your true self and help everyone around i.e. family and

friends

in knowing themselves.....while doing (without the doer ship)

everything else......

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

 

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear sadaks,

Scarifies--When Sri Rama asked to give away his throne to Bharat,

Puraan says HIS face was like just flowered lotus and brightness on

HIS face. The message was from Kaykeyi (Step mother) not from

Dasarath who actually said. Sri Rama never even verified the order

from Dasarath. Means sacrifies not done with benefit or done

knowingly (Sri Rama was not knowing the act was sacrifies). The best

part was when Sri Rama returned from forest HE first went to the

hunch back lady who spoilt Kaikeyi mind. DEAR SADAKS, kaikeyi mind

got corupted because of desire (which is ongoing discussion) of her

son. There is a saying Do Dharma with one hand let not the other

hand know. Concept of Sacrifies. A small iota thought of the action

in mind is enough to bring Ego in sacrifies.

 

Jesus crucified knows body soul are differant. If someone feels

happy in crucifing the body HE was silent. HE said, " Nothing happens

without the will of my Father " . So the action of sacrifies was not

owned by Jesus, the action owned by HIS father. Before dying HE

said, " Oh father in heavens let them be spared as they know not what

they are doing " . So the action of the crucifer was also disowned by

Jesus, which in turn disowned in mind level.

Five Bala Pandavas was slined by Aswathama after the war. Sri

Krishna and Arjuna catches Aswathama brings to Kunthi. She says let

Aswathama go since he is Guru`s son. Kunthi sacrifies was a concept.

Sadaks know Baktha Gora pot maker. His enimies broke his pots to

bits whitch he was carrying by cart for sale. He started picking the

bits from floor. The enemies asked whether he was mad. He replied

the bits mat hurt the passer by, so he is clearing the way. Pots was

sacrifice and picking denotes forgiveness. Both action were not even

in mind level Same Gora due to quarrel with his wife who said not to

touch her there after. Gora was NO way different from daily

household and in showing affection to his wife, but remained

untouched living in same bed room. Just a word from his wife in

anger not to touch her, he sacrificed his years of life which we

call it happiness.

 

Buddha walking for bath. Some said abusive language. He actually

forgot then and there, but his disciples reminded him. Buddha said

when did that happened. Mind level forgiveness which not owned. So

was Sri Rama, when some one asked forgivness for their misbehaviour

HE used to say " When it happened " . We store everything in our mind

to full extent, leaving no place for Bagavan WHO keeps on saying

leave it to ME (Surrender). Same thing said, in Christianity, " Empty

thyself, I will fill it " . We wont empty for Sri Krishna to come in,

still I hear from some sadaks, " Is God gone on holidays when I am

sufferings " .

 

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

On Ashokji's comments:

It is equally possible that acts of sacrifice and that of empathy

both can boost ego or both may not necessarily boost ego, depending

on the inner postures while acting.

As I understand it, Happiness is not contrary to anything or anyone,

as in Happiness there is " nobody " that is happy, is totally devoid

of " me " . It just is That, Happiness!

Our true nature, upon realization, is experienced as Happiness-

Bliss itself. It is welcoming Presence in us which welcomes

sacrifices with joy. It says " yes " to everything arising/appearing

in it, the reason why they arise/appear in the first place.

Sometimes doing things for others can also strengthen ego if in

thoughts " doer " creeps up while doing.

Forgiveness is the greatest virtue in practical life, sure. But in

forgiving if " forgiver " , disguised " me " shows up to forgive

the " other " , it may not make us peaceful, but can boost ego.

Forgiving, to me, is to overlook, or look over ego in others and

give understanding. It is to see that the person is not bad but

his/her acts are so, due to ignorance.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

 

Raam! Raam!!

 

We are all grateful to GT Moderators for sheer service being

rendered to humanity through management of this divine web site.

With reference to the topic under discussion , however, may I state

that for the first time I saw them agreeing to a totally wrong

statements. Since it is very dangerous from 20000 + sadhak point

of view hence I must point out. Consider the following:

 

" As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES.. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH AS HAPPINESS and ANAND AS BLISS. In your response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators) "

 

What does it clarify? How spirituality is bi-modal in nature? HOW

CAN EGO ITSELF RELINQUISH ITS CHERISHED I -ness or mineness? Answer

me ! How can Ego relinquish itself ? What are natural agents,

substantial agents, social agents, psychological agents ? What was

wrong in considering Happiness and Sukh as worldly and Anand as

Bliss to be the goal of each of us? Why we should equate them so

casually? How can an inert thing like TRUE FREEDOM " itself " empower

itself to execute on its own ........?

 

Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's beliefs is deceit and

hypocracy. ( WHAT BEHAVIOUR ? WHOSE BELIEF? ) /

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. ( WHY ONE SHOULD NOT

BECOME SPECIFIC? WHY ONE SHOULD NOT BECOME SADHAK? HOW ANYTHING WE

DO IS OK? DRUG ADDICTS ARE OK? )

 

Shyama C

-------------------------------

Radhey Radhey

 

Sadhak Sushilji ! I am happy you covered yourself quickly against a

difficult note which you wrote that " Sacrifice and Happiness are

contrary " . I agree fully with your explanation except Sr No 1. It is

Sr No 2 till the end which is absolutely correct. The fact is that

every sacrifice ( renunciation) instantly produces happiness.

INSTANTLY - even if that renunciation is of body waste. It is LAW !

That it boosts ego, etc they are all craps. NO RENUNCIATION CAN EVER

FUEL EGO ! Every renunciation reduces Ego ! There is no substance in

classifying Bhoga, Happiness (sukha) and Ananda and then eloquently

concluding - " Just words....nothing more " . " If you look closely -

Happiness is happiness " !! Sheer twist of words and nothing ,

nothing more than that ! They are not just words , there are

distinctions between them as wide as are south and north poles.

 

You have not looked closely at all Mr Naga Narain. Bhoga is

temporary. Bhoga is relative. ANANDA is absolute, self proven. Dont

say so loosely whatever comes to mind. Think deeply. Have you never

heard the word PEACE ? If yes, why did not you talk about it? What

is happiness ? Know Mr Naga and accept it humbly that- Happiness is

PEACE !! Says Gita - ASHANTASYA KUTAH SUKHAM ? ( Where is happiness

to him , who is not peaceful.? ) Dont just say for the sake of

saying.

 

But I have a request to make to GT Moderators. Please insist that

there is RELEVANCE to the Q asked in the response. Sushilji ,

Vyasji, Mike, Pratapji , Jee Jee Shashikalajee all talked

about " Duties of Household " and then came finer points of

discussion. Did Mr Naga Narain talk a single word reg the Question

of Mr GeeWaman? This is not how the deliberations become focussed

and fruitful.

 

Radhey Radhey

Nisha Chatterji

--------------------------------

To GT Moderators

 

Re-Read this again and kindly explain:

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-

triggered,whether it is established within or borrowed from around,

it has the same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the

ego. Anybody can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes

alcohol why he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be

always to forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard.

If you analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to

analyze), it becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at

least to forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there.

Whether a person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance

(e.g.coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans,

etc.),and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

WHAT DOES IT MEAN ? IT MEANS THAT IF YOU ARE CONSUMING DRUGS , (

substance triggered) - so long as under the influence of drugs you

are forgetting I- ness and Me- ness , you have established yourself

to the HIGHEST ANANDA level and have achieved the goal of human

birth ??? WHAT EXACTLY IS MEANT BY THIS?

 

And GT Moderators are thanking ?? along with boldly reference to

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj !!!

 

No ! I dont want to be a party to such ecstacies! Sorry. I regret I

became member of this group.

 

Audrey Rodrigues

--------------------------------

Hare Hare

 

Recent deliberations raise more Questions than answers. How can any

SADHAK boldly state that BHOGA/SUKHA/ANANDA are same thing, only a

matter of attitude, the effect is the same !!! Incomprehensible !

 

Statements such as same Ananda gets converted into happiness/bhoga

etc. are taking us no where in this WORD PLAY. The fact is that

there is huge difference in EXPERIENCE/ VERY NATURE/ VERY ELEMENTARY

of these elements. One is relative,transitory, unnatural, unreal and

another is ABSOLUTE and NATURAL, and real. What has attitude got

to do with it is totally unclear? and mainly what does it have to

do with the Question of Mr Gee Waman?

 

Bandook Singh Rathod

 

--------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Friends

I refer to the Gita Talk Moderator's request for explanation on my

statement 'Sacrifice and happiness are contrary'

1.Mr Naga Narayan has explained it correctly and adequately that the

notion or act of sacrifices boosts ego.

2.Act done with compassion and empathy for the benefit of other

will not boost ego and the act itself will be joy.

3.Sacrifice assumes forgoing something whereas in reality the

happiness by doing something for others is much more.

4.Sacrifice ,in a way ,focuses attention on other whereas happiness

focuses on self.

5.Sacrifice assumes owning and parting with something valuable

whereas for a sadhak nothing is owned and nothing is parted with.

 

If anything done which does not boosts ego it is ok but mind is vey

subtle

 

There is fundamentally no difference of opinion in importance of

sacrifice but one has to careful about it's impact on ego.

 

Mr Naga Narayan has also mentioned Forgiveness.

 

I am willing to forgive now is the first step in forgiving. Only

saying 'I forgive now completely and unconditionaly' is not

sufficient.Major issues and problems can be resolved by one

statement 'I am willing to forgive now' It can be made a daily 5-10

minutes routine every night.

 

But even more important is ' I seek forgiveness now' This single

sentence can work miracle.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

------------------------------

 

Q: SUKH = HAPPINESS; and ANAND = BLISS. In your response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand.

 

Normally, the scriptures refer to the same in three levels - Ananda,

Sukha and Bhoga. Though they all address the same experience, the

attitude behind the experience differ dramatically depending on the

ignorance and inertia hoarded in an individual.

 

Ananda is the state of bliss where there are no attitudes - nobody

to claim the ownership of the experience. As soon as an owner (the

ego) crops up, the absolute experience becomes a memory in the

owners perception. The recall of the absolute bliss is often

referred to as Sukha. When an external agent is given the authority

over the same experience - the belief that the joy is inherent in

the objects of pleasures - it is called Bhoga.

 

In other words,

 

Bhoga – The objects are let to own the (notion of) happiness – the

ego owns the anticipation of the experience thereupon. The

individual craves for the availability of the objects of pleasures

and enterst the whirlpool of miseries.

Sukha – The subject owns the (memory of) happiness - the ego owns

the belief of enjoyership. The individual elates in his own prowess

to command the experience. On the positive side, it allows the ego

to pause to wonder and ponder `what is the nature of the happiness

and what exactly is its focus?'

Ananda – The Happiness remains as The Absolute where both the

subject and the objects are dissolved loosing their identities and

ownerships altogether.

 

But, if you look at it closely, The Happiness is The Happiness

whether one entertained apparent notion (Bhoga) or inherent notion

(Sukha) or just be THAT (Ananada). All the words are referring to

the same … but the first two have no clue of what IT really is!

Space is space and time is time whether one is congizant of the same

or not. So is The Hapiness … IT is what IT IS, nothing else.

 

Just words … nothing more …

 

Q: ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is

having our eye on other's welfare and benefit. This is true

sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING,

ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS

BENEFICIAL TO US?

 

Yes! Many other realized souls also advise the same to the worldly

men the same way!! Nobody can tell otherwise in all sanity when

the " good living " is in the context.

 

I am not well-versed on Swamiji's works. But, whatever few things I

have understood so far from his works is as follows. Swamiji

emphasises on all the good qualities when the context is relative

life. All the qualities such as non-violence, sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. are good for keeping healthy relations within

the society on one hand and are good tools to turn one's attention

from " Bhoga " toward " Sukha " - from worldly dependence toward

individual independence to actualize the spiritual practices to

start with. Swamiji refers to this as journey from Prapancha Drishti

toward Viveka Drishti. In Viveka Drishti, clear discrimination (Ref:

Sadhan Sudhaa Sindhu, Vibhaga Yoga) of the perceived dualities and

polarities in absolute clarity from the perceptional view point

itself is of paramount importance to reveal the ignorance hidden in

ones apparent knowledge. At this level, one has to see through ones

appreciation to realize what really is " good " and what really

is " bad " even from the perceptional standards. That is essential to

lead a " good living " . And, " good living " is essential for

spirituality. No arguments there.

 

The same Swamiji also continues further while educating our Viveka

Drishti toward Bhagavaddrishti ( " Sukha " toward " Ananda " ) to explain

how even the acts of Deep Trans (Samadhi) - let alone regular

Bhajans, Meditations, and other good living qualities - belong to

the dominion of the Insentient World, The Prakriti. No trace of ego

is enetertained at The Ananda, The Sentient, The Purusha (Ref:

Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Bhagavattattva). The Avinaashee Ras that he

explains in the next chapter is an eye opener from this perspective.

Only THAT is present and nothing else - not even Samadhi in that

Sahaja Sthiti.

 

Therefore, it depends on the context. A Bhogi needs to be educated

to become a Sukhi … and a Sukhi seeks Ananda naturally. In the first

phase, good qualities should be imbibed … in the second phase, even

that should be dropped. Interestingly, there is no sequence in these

phases … we, as seekers, often oscillate between the three states of

happiness (Bhoga, Sukha and Ananda) due to the inertia and ignorance

gravitated within. Till we purge the lump of ignorance and inertia

out we cannot help it. However, pragmatic appreciation (Yathaartha

Gnyaana) of what we do, how we do and who we are is essential.

Somehow, I am fascinated by the second phase more than the first.

That is all. It does not mean that the first phase is of any

insignificance.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

As our Moderators note Mike's post, I would also say yes, we are a

one big (happy) family. It is happy family because happiness comes

from our bigness. If we feel divided and shrunk, we don't feel

happy. Our bigness makes us integrally one and acts as if we are

one, and hence leaves no room for conflict inherent in division.

Such bigness manifests in well being of all because whoever does

whatever is for well being of one and all.

Secondly I want to build on what Shashikalaji said on Ego.

Ego is a " sense " (perception) of separation in our Consciousness-

Atman, which is ONE, and cannot be divided into many.

This sense is also called " me " or " I " , mistaken to be an

independently existing entity.

This " me " is only a thought in mind or a feeling/sensation

(pains/pleasures) in body that we identify with and say its " me "

or " I " . Once there is " me " , mineness ensues! If we don't identify

body as " me " just as toddlers don't, there cannot be " mineness " .

Mineness can be many but " me " is only one appearing as many

mineness. " me " is hiding place for mineness.

This " me " becomes stronger with external sense perception which we

call world " out there " and thus we say " not-I or not-me " . Thus not-I

or not-me gives more credibility to " me " and viceversa. Soon the

mere sense becomes reality.

Strangly enough, " me " is never our experience! When examined, our

experience seems to be of being conscious of thoughts and sensations

of forms/objects perceived/conceived only. In otherwords,

Consciousness is the only experience upon which we superimpose body-

mind-world. Then to this-body-mind we say " me " and the other-bodies-

world become not-me.

Experientially the body appears in mind as thought; the mind and the

world, both, appear as thoughts in Consciousness. This very

Consciousness is Atman, or Brahman or Reality or Pure Soul, or

Pure " Presence-I AM " or Existence which is conscious of itself

called SELF!

SELF is Sat-Chit experience(anubhutirupah). As such it is never

embodied, rather body-mind-world are in It, It permeates the entire

universe. Everything is in It as Itself.

IF one can see the truth of it, one gets liberated, JeevnMukta.

This is ONE TRUTH, all else is Bondage!

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

In response to the comment by the moderators, to my somewhat

truncated response, I have contemplated Gitaji for what was

underlying my thoughts.

 

'A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on.

 

Taking the verses from Gitaji posted below, and looking at a profile

of a family head who has gained these attributes:

 

The man of restraint is awake

In what is night for all beings;

That in which all beings awake

Is night for the wise one who sees. B.G. 2(69)

 

The highest Self of him who has

Conquered himself and is peaceful,

Is steadfast in cold, heat, pleasure,

Pain; and honor and dishonor. B.G. 6(7)

The yogi who is content in

Knowledge and discrimination,

With senses conquered–unto him

Earth, stone, and gold are all the same. B.G. 6(8)

He attains eminence who looks

The same on well-wishers, friends, foes,

Neutral to enemies and kin,

The righteous and the unrighteous. B.G. 6(9)

 

Would not get caught up with mob mentality, understanding his duty

to create a wise and functioning family.

Being at peace, with the Divine shining through, will do what is

right, will not show favoritism, see the worth in all, including the

members of ones family. (Not to be one eyed, about the family or its

members).

Not to waste effort, in trying to buy affection within the family

with trinkets and toys even if they are sports cars etc.

Understanding that one should not judge, as all is working out as it

will (Lila). But with compassion and love one can offer sound

guidance.

(These attributes are far more global than family, but actually are

we not one big family?)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor).

 

---------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

MIKE! Thank you! BEAUTIFULLY SAID. Are we not one big family? Thus

is our PRIMARY duty AS A " ONE BIG " FAMILY MAN - " Sarvabhootahite

rataah " (Gita 12:4)? That is - May we all be absorbed in the well

being of all. What is sadhak's understanding regarding this? Does

Gita speak at all of the smaller family nucleas that we think off as

family?

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Excellent Q by GT Moderators ! There are two ahams (egos) . One that

relates with " existence " of the self (I exist) . A Jnana Yogi

establishes himself into that only. That remains in all three yogis-

Jnana, Bhakti and Karma yogis, even after liberation/kalyaan.

 

There is " another " ego which is connecting " self " (pure soul) to

inert (to world - body/mind/intellect). It is always " worldly " ego.

I am body, I am Doctor, I am rich etc. This " me " gets destroyed with

destruction of " mine " immediately as a law. What remains behind is

pure unattached free " self " !

Jeevan Mukta. Liberated while living. Janaka, Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj, Vaashishtha, Kaak Bhusandi etc had become liberated before

merging with Brahma. Their binding ego had destroyed but " I exist "

this awareness remained. " I " thus remained there. But that " I "

always remained in " Equanimity " mode- unattached !

 

In fact 'desire', 'spriha' , 'mamata' and 'ahankaar' all four are

one element only-worldly ego ! Desire is gross. " Spriha " (worry for

basic needs for body ) is subtle than desire. " Mamata " (mineness) is

more subtle than " spriha " . Ego (me) is the subtlest among the four

names of same element. Hence in " effect " you renounce

fully " mamata " , you will become " egoless " and vice versa !

 

As regards reference of Gita/Swamiji - please refer pg 137 of Sadhak

Sanjeevani where Swamiji while commenting upon BG 2:71 had stated

exactly what I have written. Read particularly second last para on

pg 137 (Hindi) of Sadhak Sanjeevani !

 

When the body is not " mine " , then I don't need anything . Desire

for what? Worry for what? When nothing is " mine " then what remains

in " me " ?

" Me " in fact is always with reference to worldly possessions, body

etc. When " mine " is gone, very basis for " me " is gone !! What

remained behind is " I exist " - this awareness only ! Unattached,

Free, Liberated - me - I exist !!

 

A Karma yogi (Grihashtha-houeshold generally) strives to

renounce " mineness " - mamata by putting his/her body, belongings,

powers etc fully into the service of the world. By doing that

his/her " mineness " first gets destroyed and thereupon ego (me -ness)

gets purified of " worldly impact/connection " ! A Jnana Yogi first

eliminates " me-ness " (ahankaar- I am doer) by renouncing worldly

activities in favour of nature ( I am not body. I don't do

anything ) and thereupon his/her mamata gets renounced. A Bhakti

yogi changes his " me-ness " from worldly to Godly ( I am of God ) and

mineness from worldly to Godly (ONLY God is mine) and thus becomes

egoless and mamtaless !! All three thus renounce " connection with

inert- world - body/mind/intellect/activity/matter " . " I exist " -

this awareness remains in them till death ! They use body, mind,

intellect - but in " equanimous mode " - unattached !!

 

Thanks ! Nothing pleases me more than such Question / Answer

sessions. A really good Question !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

THANK YOU JEE JEE! (GT MODERATORS)

--------------------------------

Thanks for the wonderful questions …

 

How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit - the

ego?

Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family man?

Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there must

be certain duties of a Householder?

 

Let us see …

 

Q: How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit -

the ego?

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-triggered,

whether it is established within or borrowed from around, it has the

same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the ego. Anybody

can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes alcohol why

he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be always to

forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard. If you

analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to analyze), it

becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at least to

forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there. Whether a

person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance (e.g.

coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans, etc.),

and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

Its uniques aspect of the happiness is its independence of all the

media through which one attains it. Also, the happiness should be

ever present everywhere. Otherwise, how can one attain it

irresepctive of the media chosen? How can one attain the same every

time consistently? How can anybody attain it any time anywhere? This

reinforces the theory that it is present across time and space,

rather it transcends space and time and therefore everything else.

 

When it is independent of everything, why should one develop

dependence on anything else? When it is ever-present everywhere in

abundance, why every one seem to struggle to pursue the same as if

in a panick that there is a scarcity of the same? That remains the

puzzle for everyone.

 

The reason why we loose sight of the happiness is the corruption

smeared by the ego who comes back to action claiming ownership over

the erstwhile experience of the happiness. Knowing the un-ownable

nature of the happiness subconciously, the ego enforces its

authority further by making a belief that the happiness is hidden in

the objects and actions because it feels it can manipulate them.

Without its own knowledge, it becomes a slave to the same ideas,

actions and objects which are its slaves in its belief. That is the

weakness of the ego … dependence on external entities such as

objects, actions and ideas to believe the presence of the happiness.

It does not understand, rather it refuses to understand, that the

very same ideas, actions or objects could provide happiness only by

removing itself from its cognition by disconnecting it from the

mechanism of relating itself to the I-ness and Mine-ness in real.

Due to its ignorance of what is happening, it becomes addicted to

the very notions, actions and objects to " forget " itself.

 

As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH = HAPPINESS and ANAND = BLISS. In you response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators)

 

Q: Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family

man?

 

When one is established in CONTENTMENT and FREEDOM how can he ever

disturb others?! Even when one is working toward THAT, how can there

be exploitation of others? Compassion floods out when one is filled

with Freedom and Contentment; compassion oozes out even when one's

vision is fixed toward THAT. Such a person can never be

inconsiderate to his environment - be it the family, or colleagues,

or fellow travellers, or any stranger on the street. Compassion to

others is an eventuality, a natural eventuality ascertaining the

abundance of happiness within. Apparent lack of compassion is the

symptom of the inherent lack of contentment and freedom. One has to

dig deep through the apparent symptom toward the inherent root cause

to correct the corruption at deeper and deeper layers. THAT TO ME IS

THE SPIRITUALITY. Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's

beliefs is deceit and hypocracy.

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. All the disturbances of

an ocean is superficial … the deeper we dive, the more peaceful it

is … the abyss of all the bliss is inherent in our depths

where " what we think we do " as well as " what we think we are " are

both annihilated without traces.

 

Q: Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there

must be certain duties of a Householder?

 

The notions of sacrifice, forgiving, etc. have a corrupt notion

thanks to our ego. What is meant really to people in common sense is

that, a person forgoes his happiness for others' happiness in these

acts. That means, the ownership is strongly enseeded in such

notions. Typically, sacrifice would mean " Yes that is mine, but I do

not mind giving to the other man so that he can be happy with! " Same

way, forgiving typically means, " Yes the other fellow did something

wrong; but it is OK; let me be magnanimous enough not to react; poor

fellow he does not know what he is doing! " Do you see the strength

of ownership in a subtle camafluage here? That is dangerous for

spirituality.

 

In contentment, there is no room for ideas such as sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. Whatever a content man does looks like sacrifice

as he is not staking for any fruits from the actions that flow out

of him. Also, since whatever the environemnt does to him are lost in

the oblivion of the contentment within and hence cannot invoke any

reaction at all. Therefore, it sounds like he is forgiving

everything that is happening around. To him … there is no sacrifice

and no forgiving. For him, " there is nothing mine to aid others " .

Then how can there be a notion of sacrifice? For him, " nothing can

go wrong as there is nothing wrong in the first place " . Then how can

there be a notion of forgiving? Obviously both notions belong to the

others who harbor their respective egoes!

 

(THANK YOU ! WE SEE NOW THE POINT. ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS

EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is having our eye on other's

welfare and benefit. This is true sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO

SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING, ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG

I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS BENEFICIAL TO US? From Gita Talk

Moderators).

 

For social and personal upliftment, a softer ego is better than the

crude one, I agree. Notions such as sacrifice, forgiving, etc. are

very useful there. In spiritual upliftment, ego is not acceptable in

any form. When the ego itself is annihilated in spiritual

upliftment, all other upliftments are just natural within that. That

is the beauty of spirituality versus " good living " . " Good living "

(Samaja Dharma) requires many tenets and doctrines as it still

remains variant and circumstantial. Spirituality (Sanaatana Dharma),

on the other hand, is eteranl and unique. It transcends all the

variations as well as the variants catergorically. The happiness

(Ananda) is its abode.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

The moment one applies self conscience the question of evaluation of

the task sets in, i.e., result is viewed and assessed whether it is

a " good " or " bad " job to do. The assigned job has to be done without

any consideration to that aspect.Could the doubt be cleared by this

humble person ? Namaste..

 

 

 

 

Grihastha - Household is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity) which a

human being is subjected to. No other tapasya is as subtle, as

fierce and as consuming as is that of a household. One must always ,

therefore, remember this 'grihastha' is a school for one's

emancipation and address the same accordingly.

 

Barin Chatterjee

------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

Look at the family of Lord Shiva ! Lord Shiva sports garland of

skulls and serpent. Lord Shiva's vehicle is bull. Parvatiji on the

contrary is always wearing beautiful ornaments. Parvatiji's vehicle

is Lion. Their son, Lord Ganesha's vehicle is mouse. Their second

son Lord Karthikeya's vehicle is peacock. The serpent and mouse are

by birth fierce enemies. Mouse is the food of serpent. Peacock and

serpent are enemies. Peacock kills serpent. Lion and bull are

enemies. Bull is food for lion. Bitter enemies of each other. All in

one family. But, all live in perfect harmony and comfortably.

 

JUST AS: In Lord Shiva's family all members have different and

contrasting natures, still there is unity in the family.

 

SIMILARLY: All members of any household have different natures, and

different perspectives, and still there can be unity.

 

How? Each member should look at his role and duty only and not at

other's role and duty. One should always strive to give pleasure to

other. " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST " - should be the 'bhava'

(inner expression) of a Grihastha.

 

A grihastha in order to provide pleasure to other family members,

must renounce his own pleasures. That renunciation in fact is true

austerity ! It is law that without renouncing your own pleasure, you

can't provide happiness to others.

 

1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures- if you do these, you have lived

well in the grihashtha.

 

Sadhaks should remember that it is in Grihastha only- each and every

household, no exceptions- that you get practical opportunities to

get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual likings

and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha) and learn fine points of

real " karma yoga " and " bhakti yoga " . Grihashtha Ashram (Household)

is the most important and most beneficial phase of each human being.

One must therefore make best use of it. It is in grihastha, seeds of

of your old age are sown.

 

Above all, in Grihastha it is the utmost duty of a male is to see

God in his parents. If a grihashtha merely obeys his parents , his

life becomes divine. His old age becomes ideal.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

" O descendant of Bharata, at that time Krishna, smiling, in the midst

of both the armies, spoke the following words to the grief-stricken

Arjuna. " B.G. 2:10

 

The 'Smile of Krishna', that is pregnant with, Divine Love,

Compassion, and Wisdom.

 

If one is of a nature to have these qualities in the household,

then peace and love will prevail.

 

Being detached from the Ego Wars, will give one the ability to be of

real value to all within the family sphere, (and those who know you).

 

A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on. (PLEASE ELABORATE ON THE QUALITIES - FROM

GITA TALK MODERATORS)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor)

--------------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally. Doing happens while

doer disappears! At all stages and in all roles duties will be

performed within the guidelines of Dharma as appropriate for the

circumstances one is placed, because one is Loving what has to be

done.

Without feeling such Love, duty feels like forced upon one, and

becomes chores, and boring! With Love, it is not so much as duty,

that one has to do, but rather its a Joy to do it.

So the real issue boils down to " what stops such Love to flow

freely? " Not realizing what I truly AM.

However, we can be guided by wisdom of Gita to ultimately realize

our true nature by performing duties in the best possible ways we

know, with devotion, with Love and without any expectations or

favors. Doing in such a way is its own reward, Yoga itself,

incorporating Yogah Karmashu Kaushalam principle of Gita

So as a householder with family, one takes care of those who are

entrusted to one by God. with an attitude of seeing the family as

gift from God, and serving them is to serve God. That is all!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Grihastha is the feeder to all other ashrams. Saints also get food

from households only. The beauty of grihastha ashram is that " you

can't run away " from your duties. You must do your duties- else

shatterred home ! A sadhu if he confronts with something

unpleasant , he will simply take his kamandal and walk away from the

scene. But a household can not ! That is " austerity " !

 

Rule of Grihastha is simple- Serve, Serve and serve ! Do your duty !

It is a law that service/duty destroys " mamata " . It is also a law

that if mamata is destroyed, ego gets destroyed automatically. You

instantly realise God if mamata (mine) is destroyed. What else ego

consists except " me " ? Where is the " me " when " mine " is

destroyed? " Me " (ego) and " Mine " ( mamata) are the chains which bind

a human being to the world. From this only Raag and Dvesha emerge !

Household is the place where you can easily -simply by serving the

family-destroy them decisively and achieve the very purpose for

which the human life has been given to you !

 

" Nirmamo Nirahankarasya sa shanti madi gachhati " - He who has

become " minenessless " and " egoless " gets permanent Peace and

liberation.

 

As simple as that !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

(Shashikalaji, ANY REFERENCE? CAN ONE NOT BE FREE OF MAMTA (free

of mine-ness)BUT STILL HAVE SENSE OF I-NESS (EGOISM)? GT

MODERATORS)

 

--------------------------

Friends

1.Arjuna was a Gruhastha, a family man and a householder.The

teachings applicable to Arjuna is applicable to

Gruhastha or householder.

2.The difference between Gruhastha and Sannyasi is difference in

objects of desire or attachment. King Janak devoid of attachment

was better and spiritually advanced than many Cannabis.

3.As rightly mentioned by Shri Naga Narayana the only duty of human

beings is to be happy. It is the substance,core and outcome of all

knowledge and efforts.

4.God is also called 'SAT CHIT ANAND' meaning mind/heart filled

with indestructible/permanent joy.Such state is not dependent on

others.

5.Happiness or Joy cannot be at other's cost or expense.

6.Sacrifice and happiness are contrary. Sacrifice will not provide

happiness. (KINDLY EXPLAIN - FROM GITA TALK MODERATOR)

7.According to Gita ,the only duty is to unite with God because that

alone can be source of happiness.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

KAMA--ARTHA--MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

The 4 steps Grahastha need to do.

But the Grahasta has to do and live as per sastras that Bagavan

says. Grahasth has lot of duties on shoulder as Kunthi had. But

Kunthi did well.

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

duty=dharama ?

Family or no family, the only dharma of a man is to unite with God.

1.Accept God is mine and family belongs to God. So serve the family

considering it as a gift given to you by God, with the capacity

given to you by God, with the tools given to you by God.

 

2.Choose any path-gyaan yoga, bhakti yoga or karma yoga. The common

element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme is the most important.

Many hard working people think that they are following karma yoga,

but they take all responsibily on themselves, they worry, they

insist on certain outcome, they trust their own strength, to me they

are not Yogi.

 

yoga-sthah kuru karmani

sangam tyaktva dhananjaya

siddhy-asiddhyoh samo bhutva

samatvam yoga ucyate

 

Establish yr self in Yoga and perform yr duties,abandon all

attachment to success or failure. Such evenness of mind is called

yoga.....

 

Do whatever God wants you to do while reaiming established in yoga.

with Love,

a sadhika

 

Sadhna Karigar

-----------------------

 

 

Hi,

According to scriptures, 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of

gratitude. Human being is bound to do duties at various levels of

his life i.e Saisavam, Balyam, Kaumaram and Vardhakyam. In Kaumaram

normaly one takes up life of a householder or Grihastha. A

householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha. To fully live

the life of a human the operation manual called Gita is available

for reference at any level for us.

 

with love, krishnadasan.

----------------------------

 

Dear Sadhak,

Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined elsewhere. One is not to analyze it, nor aspire for it.

Whatever comes in the way that has to be performed with all

sincerity, without having any interest in the result. One has been

given only the right of execution of the assigned work, neither the

cause of it nor the effect.(Karmanye ebo te adhikara, kodachono

faleshu ma, In Gita-II.47).

Option of becoming a Family man was also assigned which has its own

format. The format has also to be strictly followed, as it comes in

the way, but never one can apply his self conscience about

evaluation of the quality of the work assigned. (karmasanginam

agynang budhivedang na jonoyet bidwan jukto sarba karmani sadacharan

jojayet...Gita III-26)

 

BARIN CHATTERJEE

 

Warm regards

--------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR BARINJI,

Kindly explain what you mean in the last paragraph ... " never one can

apply his self conscience....... " .

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

--------------------------

There is ONLY ONE DUTY for all irrespective of what they do ...

BEING HAPPY!

 

As Shankara says,

 

Jatilo mundee lunchita keshah kashaayaambra bahukrita veshah |

Pashyannapi cha na pashyati mudhah udaranimittam bahukritaveshah ||

 

everyone has to do something or the other. One claims to be a house-

holder having no clue of what is house and what is holding. So is a

Sanyasi equally clueless of what Sanyasa means. One may ask, what is

the basis to doubt of their knowledge upon what they are doing?

Happiness, my dear friend. One who is unhappy does not where he

is ... because he does not know what he is doing ... because he does

not know who he is ...

 

Whether you are happy with what you are doing depends on your

intellect. Whether you are happy with what you are depends on your

wisdom. The question really is ... whether you want to be happy with

what you are doing ... or with what you are.

 

If you want to be happy with what you do ... many questions

follow ... how is my " doing " related to happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary as I see ... then, how much " doing " is

required to maintain the derivative happiness?

 

The " doing " is multitude and variant ... then how many " doings "

should I do to derive effective happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary, multitude and variant, how can I ever say

that the " happiness-es " derived from my various " doings " is really

the happiness?

 

Now the first question looms around stronger ... has the " doing "

anything to do with the happiness at all?!

 

I you want you to be happy with what you are ... then who cares what

you do? Stick with what you think you are.

 

Then comes the question, " Am I the one that I think that I am? "

 

Then, my dear friend, the clock starts ticking for you toward the

real happiness ... because you will find that you are not whatever

you thought as, perpetually. You will discover that all your

thoughts of " what you are " were in fact your " doings " and

never " you " . Then you may also realize that your happiness were

perpetually consumed by these parasites ... your identities ...

your " doings " and your " are-s " . As far as we are cognizant of what

we " are " and what we " do " , we are OK ... we can interrogate them

further.

 

Relating " what we do " and " what we are " to the happiness is an

absurd baseless logic ... it is called " Kaakataaleeya Nyaaya " . A

crow sits on a palm tree. Palm fruit falls down. The observer says,

the palm fruit falls down when a crow sits on the tree. The observer

beleives that there is a relation having not given any attention to

what relation means! Being happy is neither in " what we do " nor

in " what we think we are " . Both are the two faces of the same coing -

IDENTITY, the ego. In fact, if you were ever happy, my dear friend,

it was ONLY WHEN you had kept this coin away in your pocket.

 

Therefore, whatever you are and whatever you do is OK as far you are

happy. Because your happiness indicates the absence of the true

culprit - the ego. If we stick to the happiness as such, we will

then realize that " what is needed is to throw away this fellow, the

ego. Then what I do does not matter ... and what I am does not

matter ... I am happy as I should be! " . In my opinion, that is

spirituality.

 

Therefore, I see only one rule for spirituality irrespective of what

we are and what we do ... being happy ... being happy at the

core ... being nothing but happiness as such.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

---------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR NAGA NARAYANA JI, Yes! Being happy at the core is key ! One

doubt arises is can one be happy at another's expense as a

householder/family man? Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides

being happy, there must be certain duties of a Householder. Kindly

explain .. how one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true

culprit - the ego?

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

---------------------------

Interesting question......

 

It is all about knowing your true self.........while playing the

role whatever it may be........

Start with positive thought then to Happy thought and try to shift

to no thoughts....

 

As a householder even reaching to the stage of keeping happy

thoughts all the time works very fine and

gives great results and then the ultimate may happen too....while

the role of a householder goes on

perfectly, joyously........

 

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

Duties of a Gruastha

 

Very simple I believe. I know I don't write much because I am afraid

I may offend some people as I have my own strong views as well.

 

It is nice that you used the word DUTY. Life is a duty and one has

to understand the difference between duty and Maya. Maya attaches

you to the physical manifestation, duty is done as an entity and not

shrouded in Maya. As a father, mother, brother son, sister etc one

performs duty. Thus Moksha is easier to attain.

 

Happy to call this my 2 cents.

shashi dave

------------------------------

SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES

 

- only dharma of a man is to unite with God

- Accept God is mine and family belongs to God.

- Follow any path, common element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme

- 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of gratitude.

- householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha

- operation manual called Gita is ever available to us

- Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined

- Duty is to be performed with all sincerity, without attachment to

the result

- Being Happy at the core

- Know your true self, all else is a role

- From positive to happy to no thoughts!

- role of a householder goes on perfectly, joyously

- Life is a duty and one has to understand the difference between

duty and Maya

- Householder life is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity)

- Attitude must be - " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST "

- 1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures

- When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally.

- get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual

likings and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha)

- utmost duty of a male is to see God in his parents

- become free of mamta and ahamtaa by serve, serve, serve.

- Free of I-ness and Mine-ness.

- DHARMA - ARTHA - KAMA- MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

 

 

 

 

-------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

 

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Dear Sadhakas, Namakar

 

Please enlighten me, regarding what are the duties of a Gruhastha

(family man, householder), according to Geetaji.

 

....Gee Waman

-------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Jai Shri Krishna

Our duty is only that which, for those who are close to us, or

otherwise, doing for them according to our capability/ability, what

ever their rights are on us as per the scriptures. Just like the

father's duty is to make his children qualified, capable and worthy.

And whatever are the rights of the child, those become the duty of

the father. When everyone fulfills their duties, then everyone's

rights are automatically protected, and it will be the creation of a

wonderful society. Regarding duties, whatever standards are

established and prescribed in the scriptures, that alone must be

done. These are the same sentiments that have been expressed by

words of Saints - Swami Shri Sharananandji Maharaj and also in Swami

Maharaj's (Swami Ramsukhdasji's) Sadhak Sanjeevani.

 

Duty is that alone in which there is benefit / gain / well-being of

the other. It is never a duty to do what is harmful to others. To

do what is harmful or leading to someone's downfall can never be our

duty.

 

Keeping these words in mind then in whatever be your stage in life,

the varna you are in, all those that are around you will remain ever

happy with you.

 

Your servant, Ramesh (Sadhak Ramesh)

 

IN HINDI

 

Hamare liye Kartvya vahi hai,jo hamare nikatvarti hai,dur ke

hai..unka yathayogya,shastra anukul jo adhikar hai,unko pura

karna.jaise ki pati ka kartavya hai ki balako ko yogya banaye aur jo

pita ka kartavya hai,vahi balak ka adhikar hai.sab apane apane

kartavya ka palan karenge to sabke adhikar ki raksha ho jayegi aur

sunder samaj ka nirman hoga.Kartavya ke bare me praman shastra ki jo

agya hai vahi karna hai.aisa santvani me swami shre Sharnanadji

Maharaj Aur swamiji Maharaj ke bhi Sadhak Sanjeevni me yahi bhav

hai.Kartavya vahi hota hai ,jisase dusare ka hit ho,bhala ho.kabhi

dusare ka ahit,bura karna kartavya nahi ho sakta hai.yeh bate dhyan

me rakhate huye aap chahe koi bhi ashram ,varn me ho ...palan karo

to sada aap aur aapke nikatvarti samaj aanand me rahega.

 

Aapka Dass, Ramesh (Sadhak Ramesh)

 

----------------------

Dear sadaks,

Gruham is house- Astha the person who is in charge of house and its

inmates, providing them shelter, food, and most importantly teaching

his dependants Dharma sastras, Puranas Etc. The householder himself

must be well learnt to guide his family in right way. Such a person

should live purely without attachments, dutybound acting with

doership surrendered to God mentally and physically. Once he marries

his children away, he should opt for Vanaprastam. He is Karma Yogi

as Bagavan said and as said by Vyasji

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Brother Mike Keenor indeed referred to the end result of all yogas

particularly for a household- entire world as a family. That is the

nectar flowing from a sadhak always speaking from his soul. Sadhak

Pratapji and Shashikalajee have already built upon the same ,

beautifully, in their last messages, hence I have very little to

offer.

 

But I must say that this is how all yogas end their journeys call

it , " sarvabhoot hite rata " (BG 12:4) for Jnana Yogis or " Vasudevah

Sarvam " (BG 7:19) for a Bhakti Yogi, what to say of a Household

(Karma Yogi) where entire world is a family for him. SARVA

BANDHUTVAM (Brotherhood of All ).

 

The consideration that " this one is a kinsman and this one is not "

is of persons who have mean mind. But for persons possessing

a 'noble' behaviour, the intellect is quite free from

coverings/restraints- and that is achieved by resolution : There is

no place where I am not; there is nothing which is not mine. All

classes are indeed our kinsmen. None whatever of these beings are

very much unconnected to us.

 

Yes Mike ! How indeed at the end of road and at the door steps of

the 'Beloved', there can be that understanding, 'this is kinsman and

this is a stranger ', of the SELF who is existing in oneness and is

all pervading ?

 

Yes, but the bottle must also break first, as Shashikalajee told so

that first " mineness " with 'others' dissolves fully and then emerges

out of that renunciation(service/sacrifice) Peace and from peace

comes out again the mineness with the all pervading 'Divine' ! MERE

TO GIRDHAR GOPAL !! (Only God is Mine) There is no " doosara " (other)

thereafter. Service has destroyed the mineness with the 'other' .

There is no SARVAM now ! There is ONLY VASUDEVA !! There is

no " doosara na koi " , there is ONLY , " MERE TO GIRDHAR GOPAL " !!

 

Amen, Brother !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------------

 

I apologize for the lapse in communication of the message in an

" appealing way " raising anger in some. Apparently, we are thinking in

two different languages! But, my request is, PLEASE DO NOT THROW THE

STONES EVERYWHERE IN YOUR ANGER. The moderators as well as the forum

has nothing to do with it. It is me who has caused ... and hence, aim

the stones at the cause. If there is any blame, that is mine. Pl. do

not give credit of that to anybody else :).

 

Somebody has advised me to use the word " peace " rather than

" happiness " . Tathaastu. Amen. I will. Any other word is also fine ...

I have no problem.

 

Some felt that Bhoga, Sukha, Ananda etc are treated the same in the

message. No! All referring to one's attitude behind one's action can

never be the same. Let me re-iterate, the perceptions are not the

same, but the essence is. In fact, the essence of anything and

everything is the same. Vaasudevah Sarvam.

 

Some objections that the message had no relevance to house-holder ...

Sorry for assuming that it was implicit ...

 

Somehow some have extracted a notion that " taking drugs is OK " from

the message! I am baffled as well as apolegitic for such grossly

unintended meaning being grasped :(. What was intended was that " even

respectful activities such as Bhajan, meditation, and even Samadhi

could be practiced as Bhoga if we believe these are responsible for

the the ever-present absolute ... let us be alert in our practices.

As a house-holder one need to be extra-cautious due to the expectations from the

family and society " :

 

Na karmanaam anaarambhaan naishkarmyam purusho'shnute |

Na cha sanyasanaadeva siddhim samadhigacchhati ||

 

We can talk on this for years and centuries and millineums ... and

yet the communication will falter as we insist for familiarity in the

expressions ... If you disagree, feel free. Being angry ... think

about it.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

All seem to strongly agree that " Ananda " or " Peace " is Absolute ...

and yet strongly insist that many things should be excluded from

That! That baffles me. Ananda (not the word, but the essence referred to) IS

Absolutely Absolute - Vasudevah Sarvam. THAT is everything being all-inclusive.

Then it has to be any word as such. It has to be any thing as such. I cannot

fathom how anything in this world can be excluded from the happiness that we are

referring to! Your agreement is also THAT. Your disagreement as well. Your anger

as well!

 

Vidyaa-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi hastini |

Shuni chaiva shvapaake cha ... aanando'nanda eva hi ||

 

Everything is, in fact, entitled for the happiness equally - be that

a great scholar, a great saint, a great truth seeker, an animal such as cow or

elephant or a dog, or be that a dog eater ... happiness is

happiness as such. I cannot claim any right on the happiness " more "

irrespective of what I do or think. I know that I am entitled for the

happiness as anything else in this world is. There cannot be anything

in this world other than THAT, The Truth which is often referred to

by various words such as happiness, peace, absolute, truth, bliss, etc. I

consider it to be the greatest ignorance if I consider any specific word to be

singularly adequate to mean THAT.

 

The words are NOT there to mean The Absolute ... but to mean what we

perceive. After all, any word is nothing but a figment of our

cognition only! Therefore, we shall revisit the words Bhoga, Sukha

and Ananda again. For communication sake, following is what they

represent for me:

 

Bhoga: The notion of happiness is projected on to a perceived

entity - substance, action, perception or experience. Even if one

attains happiness through Samadhi, if the beleif is that the

happiness is established in Samadhi, I consider that notion or

attitude as Bhoga only. The objects of body, mind and desire

dominate the belief here.

THIS IS THE WORST STATE OF ONE'S ATTITUDE. I am baffled how anybody

could get a contrary meaning out of it?!

 

Sukha: The notion of happiness claimed by an individual. Even if it

is claimed by a saint, my considerations remain the same. On positive

side, it promotes individual independence while it can also promote

pride on its negative side. The subject dominates the belief here.

Again it is a limited state as one's perception dominates. I am again

confused how people could mix-up what was expressed from two distinct

angles - one from individual attitude and another from transcendental

perception.

 

Ananda: Just being happy where happiness remains just happiness. As a

matter of fact, any pure objective presence where every object is

treated as itself and the subject as itself without any imposed

qualities is also THAT only. No subject, no object, no beliefs ...

but just THAT remains. Though the word is conceived in one's

cognition, what is meant her is " transcendental " . That is The

Absolute presence of reference here. Therefore, everything is Ananda

only from transcendental perception.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

I have difficulty in understanding how The Absolute can be viewed

with any filter - be it a word, or a concept or a theory or objects

or even the whole universe. THAT cannot be trapped in anything ...

yet, THAT is everything as such. In other words, if we look at

everything objectively without any trace of subjective notions, we

are always happy because we are THAT. THAT IS THE VALUE FOR THE

HOUSEHOLDER, OR AS A MATTER FACT, FOR ANYONE ELSE AS SUCH.

 

Karma brahmodbhavam viddhi brahmakshara samudbhavam |

Tasmaat sarvagatam brahma nityam yagnye pratishthitam ||

 

Everything (though the actions are in context here) " is " THAT and yet

none can " get " or " have " THAT. The value of the appreciation of our

ignorance in our appreciation of life - distinction between Bhoga,

Sukha and Ananda in our perception - is of paramount importance to

realize the unity beneath everything (including the notions of

pleasures, happiness, bliss, etc.) in our natural presence (Sahaja

Sthiti). If one (including a house-holder) involves in the daily

activities naturally, The Bliss is revealed in the very presence

irrespectively.

 

THE PURPOT IS, ALL VARIATIONS REMAIN WITHIN THE IMAGINATIONS

(NOTIONS,

EMOTIONS, RELATIONS) OF THE PERCEIVER (THE EGO) ... NOT IN THE MERE

PRESENCE OF ANYTHING (INCLUDING THE EGO).

 

Therefore, nobody need to worry whether they are in right

circumstances for receiving the abundance of happiness (be it a

house-holder or anybody else). If we let ourselves " be " what we are

while letting everything else as they " are " we are always happy. If

we try " get " or " have " anything including our own identities, we are

doomed to suffer. Nobody has strength to " get " or " have " happiness -

not even gods let alone great saints and scholars. Everybody is

entitled to " be " happy as they are no matter who it is ... be a dog

or a dog eater ... does not matter.

 

RELEVANCE: DUTY FOR A HOUSE-HOLDER (FOR EVERYONE ELSE AS WELL) IS TO

NURTURE OBJECTIVITY IN LIFE. RESPECT EVERYTHING AS THAT.

 

Happiness IS just happiness ... Truth IS just truth ... anything IS

just anything ... no matter how we attempt to look at things around.

The beleif that what we see is completely representative of what is

seen is THE IGNORANCE that is the cause of all miseries. As a

house-holder (let me make this explicit as some have difficulty in

potential irrelevance of the statements here), as well as anybody

else, the ONE AND ONLY FOOL-PROOF way to be happy is to let ourselves

be involved in the actions presented to us naturally showing no trace

of hesitance.

 

Karma brahmodbhavam viddhi ... no matter what ...

 

RELEVANCE: DUTY FOR A HOUSE-HOLDER (FOR EVERYONE ELSE AS WELL) IS TO

RESIST DEVELOPING NOTIONS ON ANYTHING FUELING THE INHERENT TENDENCIES

OF LIKES AND DISLIKES.

 

Jitaatmanah prashaantasya paramaatmaa samaahitah |

Sheetoshnasukhaduhkheshu tathaa maanaavamaanayoh ||

 

Again, we can talk on this for years and centuries and milleniums ...

and yet the communication will falter as we insist for familiarity in

the expressions ... If you disagree, feel free. Being angry ... think

about it.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Just a few 'principles/laws' from Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj . The

Question of these ever failing does not arise :

 

1 Service destroys Mamata (mineness)

 

2 When you provide happiness to others , your own desire for

enjoyment reduces. Desire is gross form of Ego !

 

3 You can't renounce what belongs to you. You can only renounce that

which is continuousy renouncing you.

 

4 Either, When you serve, just don't consider the servicee to be

yours ! Alnernately, serve those who you don't consider to be

me/mine. Result is same.

 

5 Bhog and Sangrah - Consumption and Accumulation of worldly things-

is not allowing you to realise God !

 

6 A grihastha renounces 'enjoyership' (fruits of actions) first. He

acts with 'doership' in him. Renunciation of fruits of action

destroys effortlessly the 'doership' as a law ! In case of Jnana

Yoga, sadhak first renounces 'doership' ! Renunciation of 'doership'

destroys effortlessly 'enjoyership' as a law ! The world is nothing

except " doing " and " enjoying/suffering " !!

 

7 World is not the place at all for pleasures or pains. For

pleasures (bhog) , go to heaven. For pains go to hell. For mixed, be

bird/animal/tree etc But once you are human, rise above them.

 

8 When you renounce, however/with whatever attitude, peace will

generate in you ! Ego takes a beating with every disconnection.

 

9 Discrimination (Viveka) is God given advisor to you. Respect it.

 

A grihastha (householder) whose primary sadhana comprises

of 'doing' , should not worry excessively about 'doership' or the

false notion that it fuels ego ! No- such notions are 'evils in the

garb of good' !! He should renounce 'enjoyership' of results.

Doership goes later on automatically/effortlessly by operation of

Divine Laws.

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

-------------------------

 

Gruhastha means a householder. In other words a married man. The

head of the household has a duty to see to the well being of his

family and to do everything he can to see that they are looked after

well. Afterwards he has a duty towards society especially those who

suffer due to poverty or ill health. If he serves them then he is

serving God as well as because they are also God's creations.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

---------------------------

.. " When the self is known……. All is known , " This is the highest

understanding to be imbibed by a sadhaka.

 

2.Effort for Self realization, thus, is the highest sadhana .

 

3.If the self is realized ……….. all the questions get answered from

within oneself . The duties of a Pativrata, the duties of a

Householder ( Pati), the duties towards each amongst the various

members of the family ………. happen to get understood , and expressed

in action, spontaneously , by the knowers of truth…… by the self

realized .

 

But …………………..

 

4.Self realization is not easy. It does not even occur to most

people, as the primary purpose of Life. So, in the family, it will

seldom be that even one member would be self realized ……… All would

be what they are ……….. egos evolving at their own pace and according

to their own choices …………. And, in this age of Kaliyuga …………… there

is naught but the ego in manifestation everywhere ……

 

And…………..

 

5.The family is the smallest unit of society. The values that the

society wishes to be practised within itself , have to begin as

practise within the Family. The values practised within the family

will automatically get practised in the society.

 

6.The family and Society are deeply linked. If the Family

practises Dharma, the society will be a Dharmic society. If the

society encourages Dharma, and is Dharmic, the family too will have

a tendency to live the life of Dharma .

 

7.Keeping the above in view, for harmonious living , wherein the

highest values get lived and practised in action, the Rishis and

Munis , the realized ones, laid down the Principles of Dharma( the

Sanatana Dharma ) as also the duties to be practised by the various

members of the family, beginning with the Pativrata Dharma and the

Patnivrata Dharma, Vrata means ............... self-imposed

discipline for the sake of self evolution. Discipline is defined as

self-imposed sacrifice of ego for the larger Good of the greater

number . Discipline is the sacrifice , in which all benefit and

achieve their individual goals .

 

8.Now, the Family comprises of the pati, the patni, the progeny.

 

It would not need much intelligence to logically arrive at the

conclusion that harmony we seek within our own selves must begin as

expression within the family; and, it can only be so, if all the

members know their duties and responsibilities towards each other,

and these duties should occur from within each member so as to be

expressed in action spontaneously, easily and lovingly .

 

But, as we said earlier ……… that is only possible , if every member

is self realized . From this , it becomes easy to arrive at the

conclusion that the first duty of each member is self -

realisation.

 

9.But, the family comprises of husband , wife and children. And, the

children would only follow what their parents do. THUS, both husband

and wife must have their first duty as the realisation of the

self .

 

Ha !

 

Now comes the rub . Where do things go wrong ? Things go wrong,

because the husband focuses only on what duties the wife should be

performing . The wife focuses only on what she should get out of the

husband , what his duties are !...... No-one focuses on Duty as

kartavaya ( One's own duty lovingly performed so as to please God

and thus move into self realization ) And, thus we find around us

today, turmoil in every home, discord in every home, with husband

and wife constantly at each others throats, and children rebelling

and even abusing their parents .

 

10. The way to self –realisation is given in various Upanishads ,

granthas, puranas, smritis, bhagvatam, and so on. Bhagvada Geetha is

the quintiscence of all the Upanishads .

 

11.It would be logical to say …. That a wise sadhaka would try to

walk the shortest, obstacle-less path to self-realization.

 

12.And for the true Sadhaka, there are three very valuable

scriptures ( amongst scores more ), which show the way to self

realization. These are the Bhagvada Geetha , the Ashtang Yoga sutras

of Patanjali, and the Vivekachudamani by Shankra. All the three are

complete and competent in themselves to lead the sadhaka to the

ultimate fulfillment . At the same time …. they compliment each

other , and are not exclusive of the other. But, it is best for the

sadhaka to stick to anyone of them for walking the Path

assiduousally , under the guidance of a self-realised Guru , if

possible .The importance of a Guru can never be over-emphasised .

 

Ah, friends, if we want to bring joy, happiness and true progress

within the society, it will have to be by clearly understanding

that practice of the discipline for self realization will have to be

by defining the duties of the husband and wife clearly towards each

other , and through the understanding that these duties are self-

imposed for the evolution of the self so as to realize God in

this very lifetime.

 

All creativity in Nature is the outcome of two principles, the male

principle and the female principle. These principles govern even

the insentient creation. But, when the evolution brings us to

sentience , the intelligence given to human beings by God or

Existence was to to reach the pinnacle of achievement ……. God

realization ……… and society living as Gods . This is Dharma. The

principal players in this are a man and woman , and the unit is the

family. Discipline will have to begin with these two players . The

discipline will have to be practiced by the wife and the husband for

the sake of their own self . The Bhagvada Geetha is the guide to

discipline , the practice of the thirty attributes given in

Chapter 13, irrespective of whether one is the wife , or a husband.

BUT, we will also have to devise the individual Dharma of the

husband and wife toward each other , This the ancient rishis and

munis did ……. But today, the wife and the husband both flout it ,

and fight regarding its veracity. The husband of today does not

understand that he is responsible to respect the woman and, the wife

of today refuses to set an example to her children in love sacrifice

and obedience, even though both carry on reciting the ancient

mantras " matri devo bhava, pitri devo bhava, acharya devo bhave,

atithi devobhava "

 

Every wife and mother is enchanted by the mantra ` matri-devo

bhava'………… but is reluctant to be a great mother .

 

Every father would like to be worshipped in accordance with the

Mantra ` pitri-devo-bhava'……….. but may not wish treat his parents

worshipfully.

 

And what about the mantra , we used to hear a few decades ago …………'

pati devo bhava `………. We hear of it no more …………..

 

Nobody is to be blamed ………….. neither man , nor woman ………… it is

the march of time ……….

 

Everyone shouts at the other to practice the same values , which one

oneself refuses to practice.

 

The family, the vey womb of Dharma is breaking up if not already

broken. But there is still the great Hope for revival. Out of the

awareness of the evil of Adharma all around ,Dharma now is becoming

an individual quest. Perhaps, one day again, soon, out of this

individual self-realisation, the family will , once again, come

together ; but, it will then again be a Dharmic wife and a Dharmic

husband, and their progeny worshipping their parents …….. so that

all may fulfill the purpose of Life , God- Realisation.

 

A Golden age of Dharma may yet come again…………. may be not in our

lifetime, maybe not even in this yuga( for, when this happens, we

would not be able to call it kaliyuga , it will become

Satyuga ,,,,,,,,,,, ) ………….. God only knows .All is His Will. The

movement of Time and Space, is itself God's Will.

 

Ah, dear sadhakas, who so do choose…………… let us continue with our

sadhna .

 

Ah, where were we …? Bhagvada Geetha ……….. chapter ….. shaloka ….. ?

 

AUM narinder bhandari

-------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Narinderji, Please kindly be concise in future postings. Thank

you, From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

 

--------------------------

Dear Sadak Sri Madan Kaura,

I very happily accept your correction. What is true is to be

corrected is our Dharma. It is not Kunthi but Droupati who forgave.

Such quality comes from the persons with whom one is associated.

Droupati association with Sri Krishna.

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Grihastha (Household) is a place where by serving 'others' a person

must strive to get freedom from the ocean of birth and death. When

you 'serve' invariably your desire (gross form of ego) takes a hit.

Grihasthas therefore MUST use 'viveka'- discrimination frequently in

day to day life.

 

Trees also live; and so do animals and birds. He alone lives (in

essence) whose mind is alive by reflection. One must in Grihastha

(household) inculcate 'good qualities' in him. Human life itself and

in that too the ashram of 'grihastha' provides you opportunity of

being 'noble' . One must never drop 'nobleness' in him. NEVER !

Human life is given to renounce Bhog/sukha/happiness not to seek it.

Real happiness lies in sacrifice/renunciation. Peace emerges out of

renunciation( BG 12:12 ) . Trust Scriptures only, as Madanji Kaura

said.

 

Those who shun nobleness or contemplate dropping them are aged asses-

carrying burdens only. The scriptures is a burden for one without

discrimination; knowledge is a burden for the passionate(bhogi) ;

mind is a burden for one WITHOUT PEACE,( for one who does not

renounce or sacrifice worldly pleasures/possessions in favour of

family members/ others/world at large) and the body is a burden for

one who does not know SELF or tries to erase/forget his true

identity. For such people, without discrimination, the mind runs in

vain from here and from there perplexed, just as a dog from distance

to a greater distance in a village.

 

In Grihastha (household) therefore one has excellent opportunity of

deriving PEACE by merely renunciation of his own happiness and

possessions in favour of family members/ world at large.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

For every sadhak " household " is a challenge. Here he has to " do " !

How to be a " great doer " ? Read Scriptures to know that, as

suggested by Sadhak Madanji Kaura !

 

He is called a great 'grihashtha' (householder):-

 

1 Who performs duties prescribed by the scriptures according to

circumstances, with a mind free from doubt or fear.

 

2 Who assumes indifferently, love and hate, pleasure and pain,

likeable or unlikeable works, and fruit/reward and its absence

 

3 Who acts with his excitement/anxiety gone, who is possessed of

silence, free from egotism, stainless and is one who has given up

jeolousy.

 

4 Whose mind is mind is not stained by bad or improper doubt in

considerations of right and wrong in good and bad actions

 

5 Who neither regrets nor rises in his mood due to a pure and even

mind and is free from excitement and joy.

 

6 Who undertaking action and non-action and doership, remaining

indifferent , becomes exceedingly even internally.

 

7 Who , passing through weal and woe, does not indeed give up his

equanimity, and is calm by his very nature

 

8 Whose mind is quite even in circumstances of birth, existence,

death and among objects having rise and fall.

 

9 WHO SERVES, SERVES and SERVES to those people whom he

considers " mine " with those things which he considers to be " mine " -

thus relinquishes what is " mine " and thereby kills the very shelter

of " mineness " - the ME or I-ness !!

 

There is no doubt that all creatures, of whatever nature, strive

only for happiness. So does a 'householder'. Here

the 'discrimination' (viveka) plays vital role. He must distinguish

between Bhoga/happiness and Ananda/Bliss. Scriptures distinguish

categorically. Why? Because it is vital to do ! We must understand

the difference between temporary and permanent, real and unreal,

relative and absolute. When Sadhaks do so, with the help of Viveka,

then surely ugliness will be seen by them among the lovely; non

being on top of being; impermanence will be observed among the

permanence, and unreality among the seemingly real objects.

 

Bhogas ( seemingly real but actually unreal- objects of pleasure and

enjoyment of objects of sense) are only the expanded hoods of,

Kaliya Naga (SERPENT) referred in Scriptures (Shreemad Bhagavatam)

during description of Shree Krishna Leela . They just sting when

touched a little.

 

Which wise men and more particularly which SADHAK should take

delight in those Bhogas, under disguise of Ananda, which bhogas are

likes the shades of umbrellas in the form of exhanded hoods of

Nagas - serpents ? No one should, in fact. Never a grihastha , never

a sadhak, never a human being. NEVER !

 

And THUS mineness gets destroyed, and THUS as suggested by Brother

Mike entire world becomes a large family. You (water) can perceive

ocean only when you (it) come (s) out of small water pot !! Hence

serve first those who you consider " me/mine " . That breaks the

bottle !!

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Ram Ram

 

Last night I was hearing SATSANG of MAHARAJ JI of the day of Since

April-1991, that time there is a bright way in my mind that is WHAT

IS GEETA? MEANING OF GEETA? please rectify my mistake about above

question.

 

If there is a single mistake or wrong question then please " MUJE

BHOLA JAAN KE MAAF KAR DENA " " Consider me to be ignorant / innocent

and Forgive

me " according to MAHARAJ JI ( 18 April-

1991's satsang)

 

 

Jag Mohan

--------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

JAGAT BHAR KI ROSHNI KE LIYE, KARODO KI JINDAGI KE LIYE ..... SOORAJ

RE JALATE RAHNA !!

 

For spreading light in the dark universe, giving life to all , O

Sun .... Kindly keep burning !!

 

Words can never express our gratitude to all sadhaks in this forum.

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Tyaag / Bhog / Tapasya / Grihastha / Sin / Virtue !!

 

With permission of this Divine Forum Moderators , I would like to

narrate 'real life' description of aforesaid terms. Read it with

reference to 'Kaliyuga' trends and BG 18:32. Slightly long , but I

hope it will serve many : I got married very early and my Hubby then

was only 17 and me 15. He is very sharp but once we saw a movie

called 'Chitralekha'. There was one ' Kalyugi' song in that -

absolutely appeared even to the best of minds as Bhajan. My

hubby 'acted' on that temporarily and after paying penalty and upon

coming in touch with Swamiji , in early 80s , he realised grave

error. That is what Swamiji called 'evil in the garb of good' .

Reproducing that 'bhajan' to Sadhaks so that they may never get

enticed to the juiciness of the same:

 

SANSAAR SE BHAGE PHIRATE HO BHAGWAAN KO TUM KYAA PAOGE ! IS JANAM KO

BHI APNA NA SAKE, US JANAM MAIN BHI PACHHTAOGE !!

 

You are running away from the world, how will you get God? You are

not able to enjoy this world properly, you will repent up there

(after death) also.

 

YEH BHOG BHI EK TAPASYA HAI, TUM TYAAG KE MARE KYAA JANO! APMAAN

RACHIYATA KA HOGA, RACHNA KO AGAR THUKRAOGE !!

 

This 'bhog' (consumption of worldly pleasures- say alcohol) is also

an austerity. You are not able to appreciate it because of pre

conceived notion of " renunciation/sacrifice " . You shall be

insulting the Creator , if you reject/renounce His creation !!

 

HAM KAHATE HAIN YEH JAG APNA HAI, TUM KAHATE HO JHOOTHA SAPANA HAI !

HAM JANAM BITAA KAR JAYENGE, TUM JANAM GAVAA KAR JAOGE!!

 

I say that this world is " mine " . You say that this world is false

and dream. I will win and live in this world and then die, you will

lose in this world and then die.

 

YEH PAAP HAI KYAA YEH PUNYA HAI KYAA, REETO PAR DHARAM KI MOHARE

HAIN ! HAR YUG MAIN BADALATE DHARMO KO KAISE ADARSH BANAAOGE !!

 

What is " paap " (sin) ? What is " punya " ( virtue). They are only

rituals on which there is a stamp of 'dharma'. How can you idolise

that 'dharma' which changes in every 'yuga' (changes with time) ?

 

Hubby carried these lines to his heart. Once he asked Swamiji- Sir

everything has been made by God, why not consume it? Do we not

insult Creator if we reject creation? The Great Swamiji replied- God

has made poison also, stool also, will you eat it? He became

speechless !! That changed him ! Today he says each and every line

of this song is wrong !

 

That is how evil comes in the garb of good, Divine Sadhaks in this

Kaliyuga !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

Hari Om

 

As per my experience a Karma Yogi sheds his ego automatically by

serving others so much so that in the end 'server', 'servicee'

and 'service' all three become one element. 'Good qualities' in a

human are the part of his very natural self and are never required

to be renounced- be it tyaag (sacrifice/renunciation) or forgiveness

or compassion , or tolerance or truthfulness, or humility or non

violence -they all are 'divine properties' - the very nature of

Paramatma ! Can Sun renounce light? I agree with Brother Mike- ego

can't be killed with ego- never ! It is only

sacrifice/renunciation/tyaag of " mineness " that kills ego and of

course the grace of Paramatma to the surrendered devotee. What kind

of ego a mom carries while feeding her children?

 

I agree with Madanji Kaura. We must act as per Scriptures. Only

Scriptures are the proof or the yardsticks of ideal conduct.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Shree Hari

 

Dear Sathyanarayanji

 

Minor correction - In your Mahabharat example - Arjuna brings

Ashwathama to Draupadi and not to Kunti.

 

Thank you for beautiful illustrations, they are indeed very

inspiring and fitting to the duty of the householder. Nothing

personal, would like to share a common observation - in few

instances, there have been great responses from our learned scholars

in Gita-talk forum but at times, the question at hand has not been

specifically addressed. Our moderators have been very patient about

this. Pls. forgive me for being so blunt about this observation,

kindly take my comments in a constructive way only.

 

Thanks to Gee Waman for posing a good question -

 

WHAT IS HOUSEHOLDER'S DUTY ACCORDING TO GITAJI?

 

In this particular setting, as a Kshatriya, Arjuna's duty is to

fight the war, protect the masses from the unrighteousness rule.

Depending upon the setting, circumstances and the situation at hand,

the individual's duty does vary, Arjuna too is a householder, in

household circumstances he will be playing a different role, his

duty would not be fighting the war. But the principles outlined in

our scriptures do apply: the householder's duty is described broadly

in Gitaji much in detail in many verses but for the sake of brevity,

following few are referenced here:

 

Gita: (2/ 31-38), (2/48),

(3/8-9) (3-19), (3-21), (3-35),

(16/24)

 

Gita 2-38

" :sukhadukhe same krtva, labhalabhau jayajayau

tato yudhaya yujsave, nai 'vam papam avapsyasi "

 

Meaning:

Treating alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat,

get ready for the fight (Arjuna's duty in this setting), then,

fighting thus you will not incur sin.

 

Gita 2-48

" yogasthah kuru karmani, sangam tyaktva dhanamjaya

sidhyasidhyoh samo bhutva, samatvam yoga ecyate "

 

Meaning:

Established in Yoga, perform your duty O Dhanamjaya (Arjuna),

abandoning attachment, being even-minded in success and failure;

even-mindedness is called Yoga.

 

Gita 3-19

" tasmad asaktah satatam, kayam karma samacara

asakto hy acaran karma, param apnoti purushah "

 

Meaning:

Therefore, always efficiently do your duty without attachment. Doing

work without attachment, man attains the Supreme.

 

Gita 16-24

" tasmac chastram pramanam te, karyakaryavasthitau

jnatva sastravidhanoktam, karma karatum iha 'rhasi "

 

Meaning:

Therefore, let the scripture be your authority in determining what

ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Knowing this, you

should act only in accordance with the sanction of scripture.

 

Humble regards,

Madan Kaura

---------------------------

Simple answer could be....

 

To know your true self and help everyone around i.e. family and

friends

in knowing themselves.....while doing (without the doer ship)

everything else......

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

 

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear sadaks,

Scarifies--When Sri Rama asked to give away his throne to Bharat,

Puraan says HIS face was like just flowered lotus and brightness on

HIS face. The message was from Kaykeyi (Step mother) not from

Dasarath who actually said. Sri Rama never even verified the order

from Dasarath. Means sacrifies not done with benefit or done

knowingly (Sri Rama was not knowing the act was sacrifies). The best

part was when Sri Rama returned from forest HE first went to the

hunch back lady who spoilt Kaikeyi mind. DEAR SADAKS, kaikeyi mind

got corupted because of desire (which is ongoing discussion) of her

son. There is a saying Do Dharma with one hand let not the other

hand know. Concept of Sacrifies. A small iota thought of the action

in mind is enough to bring Ego in sacrifies.

 

Jesus crucified knows body soul are differant. If someone feels

happy in crucifing the body HE was silent. HE said, " Nothing happens

without the will of my Father " . So the action of sacrifies was not

owned by Jesus, the action owned by HIS father. Before dying HE

said, " Oh father in heavens let them be spared as they know not what

they are doing " . So the action of the crucifer was also disowned by

Jesus, which in turn disowned in mind level.

Five Bala Pandavas was slined by Aswathama after the war. Sri

Krishna and Arjuna catches Aswathama brings to Kunthi. She says let

Aswathama go since he is Guru`s son. Kunthi sacrifies was a concept.

Sadaks know Baktha Gora pot maker. His enimies broke his pots to

bits whitch he was carrying by cart for sale. He started picking the

bits from floor. The enemies asked whether he was mad. He replied

the bits mat hurt the passer by, so he is clearing the way. Pots was

sacrifice and picking denotes forgiveness. Both action were not even

in mind level Same Gora due to quarrel with his wife who said not to

touch her there after. Gora was NO way different from daily

household and in showing affection to his wife, but remained

untouched living in same bed room. Just a word from his wife in

anger not to touch her, he sacrificed his years of life which we

call it happiness.

 

Buddha walking for bath. Some said abusive language. He actually

forgot then and there, but his disciples reminded him. Buddha said

when did that happened. Mind level forgiveness which not owned. So

was Sri Rama, when some one asked forgivness for their misbehaviour

HE used to say " When it happened " . We store everything in our mind

to full extent, leaving no place for Bagavan WHO keeps on saying

leave it to ME (Surrender). Same thing said, in Christianity, " Empty

thyself, I will fill it " . We wont empty for Sri Krishna to come in,

still I hear from some sadaks, " Is God gone on holidays when I am

sufferings " .

 

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

On Ashokji's comments:

It is equally possible that acts of sacrifice and that of empathy

both can boost ego or both may not necessarily boost ego, depending

on the inner postures while acting.

As I understand it, Happiness is not contrary to anything or anyone,

as in Happiness there is " nobody " that is happy, is totally devoid

of " me " . It just is That, Happiness!

Our true nature, upon realization, is experienced as Happiness-

Bliss itself. It is welcoming Presence in us which welcomes

sacrifices with joy. It says " yes " to everything arising/appearing

in it, the reason why they arise/appear in the first place.

Sometimes doing things for others can also strengthen ego if in

thoughts " doer " creeps up while doing.

Forgiveness is the greatest virtue in practical life, sure. But in

forgiving if " forgiver " , disguised " me " shows up to forgive

the " other " , it may not make us peaceful, but can boost ego.

Forgiving, to me, is to overlook, or look over ego in others and

give understanding. It is to see that the person is not bad but

his/her acts are so, due to ignorance.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

 

Raam! Raam!!

 

We are all grateful to GT Moderators for sheer service being

rendered to humanity through management of this divine web site.

With reference to the topic under discussion , however, may I state

that for the first time I saw them agreeing to a totally wrong

statements. Since it is very dangerous from 20000 + sadhak point

of view hence I must point out. Consider the following:

 

" As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES.. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH AS HAPPINESS and ANAND AS BLISS. In your response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators) "

 

What does it clarify? How spirituality is bi-modal in nature? HOW

CAN EGO ITSELF RELINQUISH ITS CHERISHED I -ness or mineness? Answer

me ! How can Ego relinquish itself ? What are natural agents,

substantial agents, social agents, psychological agents ? What was

wrong in considering Happiness and Sukh as worldly and Anand as

Bliss to be the goal of each of us? Why we should equate them so

casually? How can an inert thing like TRUE FREEDOM " itself " empower

itself to execute on its own ........?

 

Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's beliefs is deceit and

hypocracy. ( WHAT BEHAVIOUR ? WHOSE BELIEF? ) /

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. ( WHY ONE SHOULD NOT

BECOME SPECIFIC? WHY ONE SHOULD NOT BECOME SADHAK? HOW ANYTHING WE

DO IS OK? DRUG ADDICTS ARE OK? )

 

Shyama C

-------------------------------

Radhey Radhey

 

Sadhak Sushilji ! I am happy you covered yourself quickly against a

difficult note which you wrote that " Sacrifice and Happiness are

contrary " . I agree fully with your explanation except Sr No 1. It is

Sr No 2 till the end which is absolutely correct. The fact is that

every sacrifice ( renunciation) instantly produces happiness.

INSTANTLY - even if that renunciation is of body waste. It is LAW !

That it boosts ego, etc they are all craps. NO RENUNCIATION CAN EVER

FUEL EGO ! Every renunciation reduces Ego ! There is no substance in

classifying Bhoga, Happiness (sukha) and Ananda and then eloquently

concluding - " Just words....nothing more " . " If you look closely -

Happiness is happiness " !! Sheer twist of words and nothing ,

nothing more than that ! They are not just words , there are

distinctions between them as wide as are south and north poles.

 

You have not looked closely at all Mr Naga Narain. Bhoga is

temporary. Bhoga is relative. ANANDA is absolute, self proven. Dont

say so loosely whatever comes to mind. Think deeply. Have you never

heard the word PEACE ? If yes, why did not you talk about it? What

is happiness ? Know Mr Naga and accept it humbly that- Happiness is

PEACE !! Says Gita - ASHANTASYA KUTAH SUKHAM ? ( Where is happiness

to him , who is not peaceful.? ) Dont just say for the sake of

saying.

 

But I have a request to make to GT Moderators. Please insist that

there is RELEVANCE to the Q asked in the response. Sushilji ,

Vyasji, Mike, Pratapji , Jee Jee Shashikalajee all talked

about " Duties of Household " and then came finer points of

discussion. Did Mr Naga Narain talk a single word reg the Question

of Mr GeeWaman? This is not how the deliberations become focussed

and fruitful.

 

Radhey Radhey

Nisha Chatterji

--------------------------------

To GT Moderators

 

Re-Read this again and kindly explain:

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-

triggered,whether it is established within or borrowed from around,

it has the same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the

ego. Anybody can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes

alcohol why he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be

always to forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard.

If you analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to

analyze), it becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at

least to forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there.

Whether a person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance

(e.g.coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans,

etc.),and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

WHAT DOES IT MEAN ? IT MEANS THAT IF YOU ARE CONSUMING DRUGS , (

substance triggered) - so long as under the influence of drugs you

are forgetting I- ness and Me- ness , you have established yourself

to the HIGHEST ANANDA level and have achieved the goal of human

birth ??? WHAT EXACTLY IS MEANT BY THIS?

 

And GT Moderators are thanking ?? along with boldly reference to

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj !!!

 

No ! I dont want to be a party to such ecstacies! Sorry. I regret I

became member of this group.

 

Audrey Rodrigues

--------------------------------

Hare Hare

 

Recent deliberations raise more Questions than answers. How can any

SADHAK boldly state that BHOGA/SUKHA/ANANDA are same thing, only a

matter of attitude, the effect is the same !!! Incomprehensible !

 

Statements such as same Ananda gets converted into happiness/bhoga

etc. are taking us no where in this WORD PLAY. The fact is that

there is huge difference in EXPERIENCE/ VERY NATURE/ VERY ELEMENTARY

of these elements. One is relative,transitory, unnatural, unreal and

another is ABSOLUTE and NATURAL, and real. What has attitude got

to do with it is totally unclear? and mainly what does it have to

do with the Question of Mr Gee Waman?

 

Bandook Singh Rathod

 

--------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Friends

I refer to the Gita Talk Moderator's request for explanation on my

statement 'Sacrifice and happiness are contrary'

1.Mr Naga Narayan has explained it correctly and adequately that the

notion or act of sacrifices boosts ego.

2.Act done with compassion and empathy for the benefit of other

will not boost ego and the act itself will be joy.

3.Sacrifice assumes forgoing something whereas in reality the

happiness by doing something for others is much more.

4.Sacrifice ,in a way ,focuses attention on other whereas happiness

focuses on self.

5.Sacrifice assumes owning and parting with something valuable

whereas for a sadhak nothing is owned and nothing is parted with.

 

If anything done which does not boosts ego it is ok but mind is vey

subtle

 

There is fundamentally no difference of opinion in importance of

sacrifice but one has to careful about it's impact on ego.

 

Mr Naga Narayan has also mentioned Forgiveness.

 

I am willing to forgive now is the first step in forgiving. Only

saying 'I forgive now completely and unconditionaly' is not

sufficient.Major issues and problems can be resolved by one

statement 'I am willing to forgive now' It can be made a daily 5-10

minutes routine every night.

 

But even more important is ' I seek forgiveness now' This single

sentence can work miracle.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

------------------------------

 

Q: SUKH = HAPPINESS; and ANAND = BLISS. In your response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand.

 

Normally, the scriptures refer to the same in three levels - Ananda,

Sukha and Bhoga. Though they all address the same experience, the

attitude behind the experience differ dramatically depending on the

ignorance and inertia hoarded in an individual.

 

Ananda is the state of bliss where there are no attitudes - nobody

to claim the ownership of the experience. As soon as an owner (the

ego) crops up, the absolute experience becomes a memory in the

owners perception. The recall of the absolute bliss is often

referred to as Sukha. When an external agent is given the authority

over the same experience - the belief that the joy is inherent in

the objects of pleasures - it is called Bhoga.

 

In other words,

 

Bhoga – The objects are let to own the (notion of) happiness – the

ego owns the anticipation of the experience thereupon. The

individual craves for the availability of the objects of pleasures

and enterst the whirlpool of miseries.

Sukha – The subject owns the (memory of) happiness - the ego owns

the belief of enjoyership. The individual elates in his own prowess

to command the experience. On the positive side, it allows the ego

to pause to wonder and ponder `what is the nature of the happiness

and what exactly is its focus?'

Ananda – The Happiness remains as The Absolute where both the

subject and the objects are dissolved loosing their identities and

ownerships altogether.

 

But, if you look at it closely, The Happiness is The Happiness

whether one entertained apparent notion (Bhoga) or inherent notion

(Sukha) or just be THAT (Ananada). All the words are referring to

the same … but the first two have no clue of what IT really is!

Space is space and time is time whether one is congizant of the same

or not. So is The Hapiness … IT is what IT IS, nothing else.

 

Just words … nothing more …

 

Q: ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is

having our eye on other's welfare and benefit. This is true

sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING,

ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS

BENEFICIAL TO US?

 

Yes! Many other realized souls also advise the same to the worldly

men the same way!! Nobody can tell otherwise in all sanity when

the " good living " is in the context.

 

I am not well-versed on Swamiji's works. But, whatever few things I

have understood so far from his works is as follows. Swamiji

emphasises on all the good qualities when the context is relative

life. All the qualities such as non-violence, sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. are good for keeping healthy relations within

the society on one hand and are good tools to turn one's attention

from " Bhoga " toward " Sukha " - from worldly dependence toward

individual independence to actualize the spiritual practices to

start with. Swamiji refers to this as journey from Prapancha Drishti

toward Viveka Drishti. In Viveka Drishti, clear discrimination (Ref:

Sadhan Sudhaa Sindhu, Vibhaga Yoga) of the perceived dualities and

polarities in absolute clarity from the perceptional view point

itself is of paramount importance to reveal the ignorance hidden in

ones apparent knowledge. At this level, one has to see through ones

appreciation to realize what really is " good " and what really

is " bad " even from the perceptional standards. That is essential to

lead a " good living " . And, " good living " is essential for

spirituality. No arguments there.

 

The same Swamiji also continues further while educating our Viveka

Drishti toward Bhagavaddrishti ( " Sukha " toward " Ananda " ) to explain

how even the acts of Deep Trans (Samadhi) - let alone regular

Bhajans, Meditations, and other good living qualities - belong to

the dominion of the Insentient World, The Prakriti. No trace of ego

is enetertained at The Ananda, The Sentient, The Purusha (Ref:

Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Bhagavattattva). The Avinaashee Ras that he

explains in the next chapter is an eye opener from this perspective.

Only THAT is present and nothing else - not even Samadhi in that

Sahaja Sthiti.

 

Therefore, it depends on the context. A Bhogi needs to be educated

to become a Sukhi … and a Sukhi seeks Ananda naturally. In the first

phase, good qualities should be imbibed … in the second phase, even

that should be dropped. Interestingly, there is no sequence in these

phases … we, as seekers, often oscillate between the three states of

happiness (Bhoga, Sukha and Ananda) due to the inertia and ignorance

gravitated within. Till we purge the lump of ignorance and inertia

out we cannot help it. However, pragmatic appreciation (Yathaartha

Gnyaana) of what we do, how we do and who we are is essential.

Somehow, I am fascinated by the second phase more than the first.

That is all. It does not mean that the first phase is of any

insignificance.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

As our Moderators note Mike's post, I would also say yes, we are a

one big (happy) family. It is happy family because happiness comes

from our bigness. If we feel divided and shrunk, we don't feel

happy. Our bigness makes us integrally one and acts as if we are

one, and hence leaves no room for conflict inherent in division.

Such bigness manifests in well being of all because whoever does

whatever is for well being of one and all.

Secondly I want to build on what Shashikalaji said on Ego.

Ego is a " sense " (perception) of separation in our Consciousness-

Atman, which is ONE, and cannot be divided into many.

This sense is also called " me " or " I " , mistaken to be an

independently existing entity.

This " me " is only a thought in mind or a feeling/sensation

(pains/pleasures) in body that we identify with and say its " me "

or " I " . Once there is " me " , mineness ensues! If we don't identify

body as " me " just as toddlers don't, there cannot be " mineness " .

Mineness can be many but " me " is only one appearing as many

mineness. " me " is hiding place for mineness.

This " me " becomes stronger with external sense perception which we

call world " out there " and thus we say " not-I or not-me " . Thus not-I

or not-me gives more credibility to " me " and viceversa. Soon the

mere sense becomes reality.

Strangly enough, " me " is never our experience! When examined, our

experience seems to be of being conscious of thoughts and sensations

of forms/objects perceived/conceived only. In otherwords,

Consciousness is the only experience upon which we superimpose body-

mind-world. Then to this-body-mind we say " me " and the other-bodies-

world become not-me.

Experientially the body appears in mind as thought; the mind and the

world, both, appear as thoughts in Consciousness. This very

Consciousness is Atman, or Brahman or Reality or Pure Soul, or

Pure " Presence-I AM " or Existence which is conscious of itself

called SELF!

SELF is Sat-Chit experience(anubhutirupah). As such it is never

embodied, rather body-mind-world are in It, It permeates the entire

universe. Everything is in It as Itself.

IF one can see the truth of it, one gets liberated, JeevnMukta.

This is ONE TRUTH, all else is Bondage!

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

In response to the comment by the moderators, to my somewhat

truncated response, I have contemplated Gitaji for what was

underlying my thoughts.

 

'A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on.

 

Taking the verses from Gitaji posted below, and looking at a profile

of a family head who has gained these attributes:

 

The man of restraint is awake

In what is night for all beings;

That in which all beings awake

Is night for the wise one who sees. B.G. 2(69)

 

The highest Self of him who has

Conquered himself and is peaceful,

Is steadfast in cold, heat, pleasure,

Pain; and honor and dishonor. B.G. 6(7)

The yogi who is content in

Knowledge and discrimination,

With senses conquered–unto him

Earth, stone, and gold are all the same. B.G. 6(8)

He attains eminence who looks

The same on well-wishers, friends, foes,

Neutral to enemies and kin,

The righteous and the unrighteous. B.G. 6(9)

 

Would not get caught up with mob mentality, understanding his duty

to create a wise and functioning family.

Being at peace, with the Divine shining through, will do what is

right, will not show favoritism, see the worth in all, including the

members of ones family. (Not to be one eyed, about the family or its

members).

Not to waste effort, in trying to buy affection within the family

with trinkets and toys even if they are sports cars etc.

Understanding that one should not judge, as all is working out as it

will (Lila). But with compassion and love one can offer sound

guidance.

(These attributes are far more global than family, but actually are

we not one big family?)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor).

 

---------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

MIKE! Thank you! BEAUTIFULLY SAID. Are we not one big family? Thus

is our PRIMARY duty AS A " ONE BIG " FAMILY MAN - " Sarvabhootahite

rataah " (Gita 12:4)? That is - May we all be absorbed in the well

being of all. What is sadhak's understanding regarding this? Does

Gita speak at all of the smaller family nucleas that we think off as

family?

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Excellent Q by GT Moderators ! There are two ahams (egos) . One that

relates with " existence " of the self (I exist) . A Jnana Yogi

establishes himself into that only. That remains in all three yogis-

Jnana, Bhakti and Karma yogis, even after liberation/kalyaan.

 

There is " another " ego which is connecting " self " (pure soul) to

inert (to world - body/mind/intellect). It is always " worldly " ego.

I am body, I am Doctor, I am rich etc. This " me " gets destroyed with

destruction of " mine " immediately as a law. What remains behind is

pure unattached free " self " !

Jeevan Mukta. Liberated while living. Janaka, Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj, Vaashishtha, Kaak Bhusandi etc had become liberated before

merging with Brahma. Their binding ego had destroyed but " I exist "

this awareness remained. " I " thus remained there. But that " I "

always remained in " Equanimity " mode- unattached !

 

In fact 'desire', 'spriha' , 'mamata' and 'ahankaar' all four are

one element only-worldly ego ! Desire is gross. " Spriha " (worry for

basic needs for body ) is subtle than desire. " Mamata " (mineness) is

more subtle than " spriha " . Ego (me) is the subtlest among the four

names of same element. Hence in " effect " you renounce

fully " mamata " , you will become " egoless " and vice versa !

 

As regards reference of Gita/Swamiji - please refer pg 137 of Sadhak

Sanjeevani where Swamiji while commenting upon BG 2:71 had stated

exactly what I have written. Read particularly second last para on

pg 137 (Hindi) of Sadhak Sanjeevani !

 

When the body is not " mine " , then I don't need anything . Desire

for what? Worry for what? When nothing is " mine " then what remains

in " me " ?

" Me " in fact is always with reference to worldly possessions, body

etc. When " mine " is gone, very basis for " me " is gone !! What

remained behind is " I exist " - this awareness only ! Unattached,

Free, Liberated - me - I exist !!

 

A Karma yogi (Grihashtha-houeshold generally) strives to

renounce " mineness " - mamata by putting his/her body, belongings,

powers etc fully into the service of the world. By doing that

his/her " mineness " first gets destroyed and thereupon ego (me -ness)

gets purified of " worldly impact/connection " ! A Jnana Yogi first

eliminates " me-ness " (ahankaar- I am doer) by renouncing worldly

activities in favour of nature ( I am not body. I don't do

anything ) and thereupon his/her mamata gets renounced. A Bhakti

yogi changes his " me-ness " from worldly to Godly ( I am of God ) and

mineness from worldly to Godly (ONLY God is mine) and thus becomes

egoless and mamtaless !! All three thus renounce " connection with

inert- world - body/mind/intellect/activity/matter " . " I exist " -

this awareness remains in them till death ! They use body, mind,

intellect - but in " equanimous mode " - unattached !!

 

Thanks ! Nothing pleases me more than such Question / Answer

sessions. A really good Question !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

THANK YOU JEE JEE! (GT MODERATORS)

--------------------------------

Thanks for the wonderful questions …

 

How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit - the

ego?

Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family man?

Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there must

be certain duties of a Householder?

 

Let us see …

 

Q: How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit -

the ego?

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-triggered,

whether it is established within or borrowed from around, it has the

same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the ego. Anybody

can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes alcohol why

he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be always to

forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard. If you

analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to analyze), it

becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at least to

forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there. Whether a

person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance (e.g.

coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans, etc.),

and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

Its uniques aspect of the happiness is its independence of all the

media through which one attains it. Also, the happiness should be

ever present everywhere. Otherwise, how can one attain it

irresepctive of the media chosen? How can one attain the same every

time consistently? How can anybody attain it any time anywhere? This

reinforces the theory that it is present across time and space,

rather it transcends space and time and therefore everything else.

 

When it is independent of everything, why should one develop

dependence on anything else? When it is ever-present everywhere in

abundance, why every one seem to struggle to pursue the same as if

in a panick that there is a scarcity of the same? That remains the

puzzle for everyone.

 

The reason why we loose sight of the happiness is the corruption

smeared by the ego who comes back to action claiming ownership over

the erstwhile experience of the happiness. Knowing the un-ownable

nature of the happiness subconciously, the ego enforces its

authority further by making a belief that the happiness is hidden in

the objects and actions because it feels it can manipulate them.

Without its own knowledge, it becomes a slave to the same ideas,

actions and objects which are its slaves in its belief. That is the

weakness of the ego … dependence on external entities such as

objects, actions and ideas to believe the presence of the happiness.

It does not understand, rather it refuses to understand, that the

very same ideas, actions or objects could provide happiness only by

removing itself from its cognition by disconnecting it from the

mechanism of relating itself to the I-ness and Mine-ness in real.

Due to its ignorance of what is happening, it becomes addicted to

the very notions, actions and objects to " forget " itself.

 

As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH = HAPPINESS and ANAND = BLISS. In you response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators)

 

Q: Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family

man?

 

When one is established in CONTENTMENT and FREEDOM how can he ever

disturb others?! Even when one is working toward THAT, how can there

be exploitation of others? Compassion floods out when one is filled

with Freedom and Contentment; compassion oozes out even when one's

vision is fixed toward THAT. Such a person can never be

inconsiderate to his environment - be it the family, or colleagues,

or fellow travellers, or any stranger on the street. Compassion to

others is an eventuality, a natural eventuality ascertaining the

abundance of happiness within. Apparent lack of compassion is the

symptom of the inherent lack of contentment and freedom. One has to

dig deep through the apparent symptom toward the inherent root cause

to correct the corruption at deeper and deeper layers. THAT TO ME IS

THE SPIRITUALITY. Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's

beliefs is deceit and hypocracy.

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. All the disturbances of

an ocean is superficial … the deeper we dive, the more peaceful it

is … the abyss of all the bliss is inherent in our depths

where " what we think we do " as well as " what we think we are " are

both annihilated without traces.

 

Q: Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there

must be certain duties of a Householder?

 

The notions of sacrifice, forgiving, etc. have a corrupt notion

thanks to our ego. What is meant really to people in common sense is

that, a person forgoes his happiness for others' happiness in these

acts. That means, the ownership is strongly enseeded in such

notions. Typically, sacrifice would mean " Yes that is mine, but I do

not mind giving to the other man so that he can be happy with! " Same

way, forgiving typically means, " Yes the other fellow did something

wrong; but it is OK; let me be magnanimous enough not to react; poor

fellow he does not know what he is doing! " Do you see the strength

of ownership in a subtle camafluage here? That is dangerous for

spirituality.

 

In contentment, there is no room for ideas such as sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. Whatever a content man does looks like sacrifice

as he is not staking for any fruits from the actions that flow out

of him. Also, since whatever the environemnt does to him are lost in

the oblivion of the contentment within and hence cannot invoke any

reaction at all. Therefore, it sounds like he is forgiving

everything that is happening around. To him … there is no sacrifice

and no forgiving. For him, " there is nothing mine to aid others " .

Then how can there be a notion of sacrifice? For him, " nothing can

go wrong as there is nothing wrong in the first place " . Then how can

there be a notion of forgiving? Obviously both notions belong to the

others who harbor their respective egoes!

 

(THANK YOU ! WE SEE NOW THE POINT. ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS

EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is having our eye on other's

welfare and benefit. This is true sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO

SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING, ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG

I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS BENEFICIAL TO US? From Gita Talk

Moderators).

 

For social and personal upliftment, a softer ego is better than the

crude one, I agree. Notions such as sacrifice, forgiving, etc. are

very useful there. In spiritual upliftment, ego is not acceptable in

any form. When the ego itself is annihilated in spiritual

upliftment, all other upliftments are just natural within that. That

is the beauty of spirituality versus " good living " . " Good living "

(Samaja Dharma) requires many tenets and doctrines as it still

remains variant and circumstantial. Spirituality (Sanaatana Dharma),

on the other hand, is eteranl and unique. It transcends all the

variations as well as the variants catergorically. The happiness

(Ananda) is its abode.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

The moment one applies self conscience the question of evaluation of

the task sets in, i.e., result is viewed and assessed whether it is

a " good " or " bad " job to do. The assigned job has to be done without

any consideration to that aspect.Could the doubt be cleared by this

humble person ? Namaste..

 

 

 

 

Grihastha - Household is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity) which a

human being is subjected to. No other tapasya is as subtle, as

fierce and as consuming as is that of a household. One must always ,

therefore, remember this 'grihastha' is a school for one's

emancipation and address the same accordingly.

 

Barin Chatterjee

------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

Look at the family of Lord Shiva ! Lord Shiva sports garland of

skulls and serpent. Lord Shiva's vehicle is bull. Parvatiji on the

contrary is always wearing beautiful ornaments. Parvatiji's vehicle

is Lion. Their son, Lord Ganesha's vehicle is mouse. Their second

son Lord Karthikeya's vehicle is peacock. The serpent and mouse are

by birth fierce enemies. Mouse is the food of serpent. Peacock and

serpent are enemies. Peacock kills serpent. Lion and bull are

enemies. Bull is food for lion. Bitter enemies of each other. All in

one family. But, all live in perfect harmony and comfortably.

 

JUST AS: In Lord Shiva's family all members have different and

contrasting natures, still there is unity in the family.

 

SIMILARLY: All members of any household have different natures, and

different perspectives, and still there can be unity.

 

How? Each member should look at his role and duty only and not at

other's role and duty. One should always strive to give pleasure to

other. " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST " - should be the 'bhava'

(inner expression) of a Grihastha.

 

A grihastha in order to provide pleasure to other family members,

must renounce his own pleasures. That renunciation in fact is true

austerity ! It is law that without renouncing your own pleasure, you

can't provide happiness to others.

 

1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures- if you do these, you have lived

well in the grihashtha.

 

Sadhaks should remember that it is in Grihastha only- each and every

household, no exceptions- that you get practical opportunities to

get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual likings

and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha) and learn fine points of

real " karma yoga " and " bhakti yoga " . Grihashtha Ashram (Household)

is the most important and most beneficial phase of each human being.

One must therefore make best use of it. It is in grihastha, seeds of

of your old age are sown.

 

Above all, in Grihastha it is the utmost duty of a male is to see

God in his parents. If a grihashtha merely obeys his parents , his

life becomes divine. His old age becomes ideal.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

" O descendant of Bharata, at that time Krishna, smiling, in the midst

of both the armies, spoke the following words to the grief-stricken

Arjuna. " B.G. 2:10

 

The 'Smile of Krishna', that is pregnant with, Divine Love,

Compassion, and Wisdom.

 

If one is of a nature to have these qualities in the household,

then peace and love will prevail.

 

Being detached from the Ego Wars, will give one the ability to be of

real value to all within the family sphere, (and those who know you).

 

A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on. (PLEASE ELABORATE ON THE QUALITIES - FROM

GITA TALK MODERATORS)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor)

--------------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally. Doing happens while

doer disappears! At all stages and in all roles duties will be

performed within the guidelines of Dharma as appropriate for the

circumstances one is placed, because one is Loving what has to be

done.

Without feeling such Love, duty feels like forced upon one, and

becomes chores, and boring! With Love, it is not so much as duty,

that one has to do, but rather its a Joy to do it.

So the real issue boils down to " what stops such Love to flow

freely? " Not realizing what I truly AM.

However, we can be guided by wisdom of Gita to ultimately realize

our true nature by performing duties in the best possible ways we

know, with devotion, with Love and without any expectations or

favors. Doing in such a way is its own reward, Yoga itself,

incorporating Yogah Karmashu Kaushalam principle of Gita

So as a householder with family, one takes care of those who are

entrusted to one by God. with an attitude of seeing the family as

gift from God, and serving them is to serve God. That is all!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Grihastha is the feeder to all other ashrams. Saints also get food

from households only. The beauty of grihastha ashram is that " you

can't run away " from your duties. You must do your duties- else

shatterred home ! A sadhu if he confronts with something

unpleasant , he will simply take his kamandal and walk away from the

scene. But a household can not ! That is " austerity " !

 

Rule of Grihastha is simple- Serve, Serve and serve ! Do your duty !

It is a law that service/duty destroys " mamata " . It is also a law

that if mamata is destroyed, ego gets destroyed automatically. You

instantly realise God if mamata (mine) is destroyed. What else ego

consists except " me " ? Where is the " me " when " mine " is

destroyed? " Me " (ego) and " Mine " ( mamata) are the chains which bind

a human being to the world. From this only Raag and Dvesha emerge !

Household is the place where you can easily -simply by serving the

family-destroy them decisively and achieve the very purpose for

which the human life has been given to you !

 

" Nirmamo Nirahankarasya sa shanti madi gachhati " - He who has

become " minenessless " and " egoless " gets permanent Peace and

liberation.

 

As simple as that !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

(Shashikalaji, ANY REFERENCE? CAN ONE NOT BE FREE OF MAMTA (free

of mine-ness)BUT STILL HAVE SENSE OF I-NESS (EGOISM)? GT

MODERATORS)

 

--------------------------

Friends

1.Arjuna was a Gruhastha, a family man and a householder.The

teachings applicable to Arjuna is applicable to

Gruhastha or householder.

2.The difference between Gruhastha and Sannyasi is difference in

objects of desire or attachment. King Janak devoid of attachment

was better and spiritually advanced than many Cannabis.

3.As rightly mentioned by Shri Naga Narayana the only duty of human

beings is to be happy. It is the substance,core and outcome of all

knowledge and efforts.

4.God is also called 'SAT CHIT ANAND' meaning mind/heart filled

with indestructible/permanent joy.Such state is not dependent on

others.

5.Happiness or Joy cannot be at other's cost or expense.

6.Sacrifice and happiness are contrary. Sacrifice will not provide

happiness. (KINDLY EXPLAIN - FROM GITA TALK MODERATOR)

7.According to Gita ,the only duty is to unite with God because that

alone can be source of happiness.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

KAMA--ARTHA--MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

The 4 steps Grahastha need to do.

But the Grahasta has to do and live as per sastras that Bagavan

says. Grahasth has lot of duties on shoulder as Kunthi had. But

Kunthi did well.

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

duty=dharama ?

Family or no family, the only dharma of a man is to unite with God.

1.Accept God is mine and family belongs to God. So serve the family

considering it as a gift given to you by God, with the capacity

given to you by God, with the tools given to you by God.

 

2.Choose any path-gyaan yoga, bhakti yoga or karma yoga. The common

element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme is the most important.

Many hard working people think that they are following karma yoga,

but they take all responsibily on themselves, they worry, they

insist on certain outcome, they trust their own strength, to me they

are not Yogi.

 

yoga-sthah kuru karmani

sangam tyaktva dhananjaya

siddhy-asiddhyoh samo bhutva

samatvam yoga ucyate

 

Establish yr self in Yoga and perform yr duties,abandon all

attachment to success or failure. Such evenness of mind is called

yoga.....

 

Do whatever God wants you to do while reaiming established in yoga.

with Love,

a sadhika

 

Sadhna Karigar

-----------------------

 

 

Hi,

According to scriptures, 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of

gratitude. Human being is bound to do duties at various levels of

his life i.e Saisavam, Balyam, Kaumaram and Vardhakyam. In Kaumaram

normaly one takes up life of a householder or Grihastha. A

householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha. To fully live

the life of a human the operation manual called Gita is available

for reference at any level for us.

 

with love, krishnadasan.

----------------------------

 

Dear Sadhak,

Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined elsewhere. One is not to analyze it, nor aspire for it.

Whatever comes in the way that has to be performed with all

sincerity, without having any interest in the result. One has been

given only the right of execution of the assigned work, neither the

cause of it nor the effect.(Karmanye ebo te adhikara, kodachono

faleshu ma, In Gita-II.47).

Option of becoming a Family man was also assigned which has its own

format. The format has also to be strictly followed, as it comes in

the way, but never one can apply his self conscience about

evaluation of the quality of the work assigned. (karmasanginam

agynang budhivedang na jonoyet bidwan jukto sarba karmani sadacharan

jojayet...Gita III-26)

 

BARIN CHATTERJEE

 

Warm regards

--------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR BARINJI,

Kindly explain what you mean in the last paragraph ... " never one can

apply his self conscience....... " .

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

--------------------------

There is ONLY ONE DUTY for all irrespective of what they do ...

BEING HAPPY!

 

As Shankara says,

 

Jatilo mundee lunchita keshah kashaayaambra bahukrita veshah |

Pashyannapi cha na pashyati mudhah udaranimittam bahukritaveshah ||

 

everyone has to do something or the other. One claims to be a house-

holder having no clue of what is house and what is holding. So is a

Sanyasi equally clueless of what Sanyasa means. One may ask, what is

the basis to doubt of their knowledge upon what they are doing?

Happiness, my dear friend. One who is unhappy does not where he

is ... because he does not know what he is doing ... because he does

not know who he is ...

 

Whether you are happy with what you are doing depends on your

intellect. Whether you are happy with what you are depends on your

wisdom. The question really is ... whether you want to be happy with

what you are doing ... or with what you are.

 

If you want to be happy with what you do ... many questions

follow ... how is my " doing " related to happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary as I see ... then, how much " doing " is

required to maintain the derivative happiness?

 

The " doing " is multitude and variant ... then how many " doings "

should I do to derive effective happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary, multitude and variant, how can I ever say

that the " happiness-es " derived from my various " doings " is really

the happiness?

 

Now the first question looms around stronger ... has the " doing "

anything to do with the happiness at all?!

 

I you want you to be happy with what you are ... then who cares what

you do? Stick with what you think you are.

 

Then comes the question, " Am I the one that I think that I am? "

 

Then, my dear friend, the clock starts ticking for you toward the

real happiness ... because you will find that you are not whatever

you thought as, perpetually. You will discover that all your

thoughts of " what you are " were in fact your " doings " and

never " you " . Then you may also realize that your happiness were

perpetually consumed by these parasites ... your identities ...

your " doings " and your " are-s " . As far as we are cognizant of what

we " are " and what we " do " , we are OK ... we can interrogate them

further.

 

Relating " what we do " and " what we are " to the happiness is an

absurd baseless logic ... it is called " Kaakataaleeya Nyaaya " . A

crow sits on a palm tree. Palm fruit falls down. The observer says,

the palm fruit falls down when a crow sits on the tree. The observer

beleives that there is a relation having not given any attention to

what relation means! Being happy is neither in " what we do " nor

in " what we think we are " . Both are the two faces of the same coing -

IDENTITY, the ego. In fact, if you were ever happy, my dear friend,

it was ONLY WHEN you had kept this coin away in your pocket.

 

Therefore, whatever you are and whatever you do is OK as far you are

happy. Because your happiness indicates the absence of the true

culprit - the ego. If we stick to the happiness as such, we will

then realize that " what is needed is to throw away this fellow, the

ego. Then what I do does not matter ... and what I am does not

matter ... I am happy as I should be! " . In my opinion, that is

spirituality.

 

Therefore, I see only one rule for spirituality irrespective of what

we are and what we do ... being happy ... being happy at the

core ... being nothing but happiness as such.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

---------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR NAGA NARAYANA JI, Yes! Being happy at the core is key ! One

doubt arises is can one be happy at another's expense as a

householder/family man? Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides

being happy, there must be certain duties of a Householder. Kindly

explain .. how one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true

culprit - the ego?

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

---------------------------

Interesting question......

 

It is all about knowing your true self.........while playing the

role whatever it may be........

Start with positive thought then to Happy thought and try to shift

to no thoughts....

 

As a householder even reaching to the stage of keeping happy

thoughts all the time works very fine and

gives great results and then the ultimate may happen too....while

the role of a householder goes on

perfectly, joyously........

 

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

Duties of a Gruastha

 

Very simple I believe. I know I don't write much because I am afraid

I may offend some people as I have my own strong views as well.

 

It is nice that you used the word DUTY. Life is a duty and one has

to understand the difference between duty and Maya. Maya attaches

you to the physical manifestation, duty is done as an entity and not

shrouded in Maya. As a father, mother, brother son, sister etc one

performs duty. Thus Moksha is easier to attain.

 

Happy to call this my 2 cents.

shashi dave

------------------------------

SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES

 

- only dharma of a man is to unite with God

- Accept God is mine and family belongs to God.

- Follow any path, common element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme

- 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of gratitude.

- householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha

- operation manual called Gita is ever available to us

- Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined

- Duty is to be performed with all sincerity, without attachment to

the result

- Being Happy at the core

- Know your true self, all else is a role

- From positive to happy to no thoughts!

- role of a householder goes on perfectly, joyously

- Life is a duty and one has to understand the difference between

duty and Maya

- Householder life is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity)

- Attitude must be - " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST "

- 1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures

- When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally.

- get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual

likings and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha)

- utmost duty of a male is to see God in his parents

- become free of mamta and ahamtaa by serve, serve, serve.

- Free of I-ness and Mine-ness.

- DHARMA - ARTHA - KAMA- MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

 

 

 

 

-------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

 

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Dear Sadhakas, Namakar

 

Please enlighten me, regarding what are the duties of a Gruhastha

(family man, householder), according to Geetaji.

 

....Gee Waman

-------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Shree Hari

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Dear Rameshji,

 

Thank you very much by bringing out " Householder's immediate duty is

to protect the rights of those who happen to be close to the

individual as a result of family relationship " . As Swamiji Maharaj

points out in Sadhak Sanjivini that our duty is simply to perform

our duty, in a lovingly manner as an offering to God and our duty is

not to make a judgment about what is the duty of others and how well

they are performing it. An exception to this of course is our duty

towards our children, they have to be guided lovingly about their

duty. The best we can do is to set a good example -

(Ref: Gita 3-21)

yad-yad acharati shreshas, tad-tad eve'taro janah

sa yat pramnam kurute, lokas tad anuvartate

 

" For whatever a great man does is followed by others; people go by

the example he sets up "

 

Many times, the common family feud in today's life style happens to

be - demanding the RIGHTS but NOT DOING one's own individual duty.

The " Bagvaan " was a good Hindi movie illustrating this point.

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Humble pranams,

Madan Kaura

---------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Coming specifically again to the subject, I have no doubt that as

Respected Rameshji said- each one of us should focus only on " What

is my duty " . We must never look at what is other family member's

duty. It is a law that your duty is other's right. Karma Yoga

essentially requires you to perform your duties (meaning protect

other family members' rights) BUT renounce your rights (meaning

ignore other family members' duties towards you)

 

Swamiji vehemently advocated this while talking about a happy

gruhustha. This single trait is good enough to make us peaceful and

happy. A gruhustha indeed suffers mostly because of lack of this

trait/skill in him. Sadhak Narinder Bhandariji has indeed brought

out this in his own beautiful, lyrical way. Thanks

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-----------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I am glad to read Naga Narayanji's response in terms of

clarification of his last post which raised issues and questions on

some of our sadhak family. I was waiting for his own response first.

I understood his post in the spirit he conveyed the first time as

did the moderators. I hope his subsequent explanations clarifies

what he really meant.

 

In my words, I would put it like this.

 

The Absolute Beingness which is at the same time Consciousness

Supreme, IS Limitless, Non-Dual, Complete in Itself, and IS Bliss

Itself. It cannot be otherwise as it is its nature, and is the ONLY

REALITY of all our experiences not matter what types of experiences.

When we talk of Bhogas, and Sukhas, we are talking from Ego's point

of view, trying to fufill through the perceived/conceived objects of

the world, forgetting the Perceiver/Conceiver being Consciousness

itself, the very reason they are experienced. All objects thus

perceived are limited, and give only limited bhogas/sukhas, the

absence of which give pains.

However, even in temporary sense pleasures or bhogas/sukhas, the

happiness felt is only due to Consciousness (being devoid of sense

of " me " in those moments), essential condition, so to speak. There

is a chapter in Panchdashi(Prakarana Grantha) by Swami Vidyaranyaji,

ch 15, " Brahmanande Vishayananda " , The Bliss of objects, where the

messge is conveyed that there is an intrinsic relationship between

worldly pleasures and Divine Happiness, the later being the original

and the former its distortion due to artificial limitations. The

implications of this is that if one is intelligent enough to

recognize this connection, the world of objects becomes Divine, and

would not appear as objects of selfish enjoyments implied in

Sukhas/Bhogas.

Besides, temporary pleasures derived from Alcohol or other such

entertainments requiring senses/body/mind have adverse effect on

physical and mental health. Thus Viveka is required. But what could

be better than to be able to see Divinity even in mundane things

with such understanading? Besides where else can you see God if not

in the world itself?

" me " can see only objects, its absence sees those very objects as

God.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Shri Krishna

Our duty is only that which, for those who are close to us, or

otherwise, doing for them according to our capability/ability, what

ever their rights are on us as per the scriptures. Just like the

father's duty is to make his children qualified, capable and worthy.

And whatever are the rights of the child, those become the duty of

the father. When everyone fulfills their duties, then everyone's

rights are automatically protected, and it will be the creation of a

wonderful society. Regarding duties, whatever standards are

established and prescribed in the scriptures, that alone must be

done. These are the same sentiments that have been expressed by

words of Saints - Swami Shri Sharananandji Maharaj and also in Swami

Maharaj's (Swami Ramsukhdasji's) Sadhak Sanjeevani.

 

Duty is that alone in which there is benefit / gain / well-being of

the other. It is never a duty to do what is harmful to others. To

do what is harmful or leading to someone's downfall can never be our

duty.

 

Keeping these words in mind then in whatever be your stage in life,

the varna you are in, all those that are around you will remain ever

happy with you.

 

Your servant, Ramesh (Sadhak Ramesh)

 

IN HINDI

 

Hamare liye Kartvya vahi hai,jo hamare nikatvarti hai,dur ke

hai..unka yathayogya,shastra anukul jo adhikar hai,unko pura

karna.jaise ki pati ka kartavya hai ki balako ko yogya banaye aur jo

pita ka kartavya hai,vahi balak ka adhikar hai.sab apane apane

kartavya ka palan karenge to sabke adhikar ki raksha ho jayegi aur

sunder samaj ka nirman hoga.Kartavya ke bare me praman shastra ki jo

agya hai vahi karna hai.aisa santvani me swami shre Sharnanadji

Maharaj Aur swamiji Maharaj ke bhi Sadhak Sanjeevni me yahi bhav

hai.Kartavya vahi hota hai ,jisase dusare ka hit ho,bhala ho.kabhi

dusare ka ahit,bura karna kartavya nahi ho sakta hai.yeh bate dhyan

me rakhate huye aap chahe koi bhi ashram ,varn me ho ...palan karo

to sada aap aur aapke nikatvarti samaj aanand me rahega.

 

Aapka Dass, Ramesh (Sadhak Ramesh)

 

----------------------

Dear sadaks,

Gruham is house- Astha the person who is in charge of house and its

inmates, providing them shelter, food, and most importantly teaching

his dependants Dharma sastras, Puranas Etc. The householder himself

must be well learnt to guide his family in right way. Such a person

should live purely without attachments, dutybound acting with

doership surrendered to God mentally and physically. Once he marries

his children away, he should opt for Vanaprastam. He is Karma Yogi

as Bagavan said and as said by Vyasji

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Brother Mike Keenor indeed referred to the end result of all yogas

particularly for a household- entire world as a family. That is the

nectar flowing from a sadhak always speaking from his soul. Sadhak

Pratapji and Shashikalajee have already built upon the same ,

beautifully, in their last messages, hence I have very little to

offer.

 

But I must say that this is how all yogas end their journeys call

it , " sarvabhoot hite rata " (BG 12:4) for Jnana Yogis or " Vasudevah

Sarvam " (BG 7:19) for a Bhakti Yogi, what to say of a Household

(Karma Yogi) where entire world is a family for him. SARVA

BANDHUTVAM (Brotherhood of All ).

 

The consideration that " this one is a kinsman and this one is not "

is of persons who have mean mind. But for persons possessing

a 'noble' behaviour, the intellect is quite free from

coverings/restraints- and that is achieved by resolution : There is

no place where I am not; there is nothing which is not mine. All

classes are indeed our kinsmen. None whatever of these beings are

very much unconnected to us.

 

Yes Mike ! How indeed at the end of road and at the door steps of

the 'Beloved', there can be that understanding, 'this is kinsman and

this is a stranger ', of the SELF who is existing in oneness and is

all pervading ?

 

Yes, but the bottle must also break first, as Shashikalajee told so

that first " mineness " with 'others' dissolves fully and then emerges

out of that renunciation(service/sacrifice) Peace and from peace

comes out again the mineness with the all pervading 'Divine' ! MERE

TO GIRDHAR GOPAL !! (Only God is Mine) There is no " doosara " (other)

thereafter. Service has destroyed the mineness with the 'other' .

There is no SARVAM now ! There is ONLY VASUDEVA !! There is

no " doosara na koi " , there is ONLY , " MERE TO GIRDHAR GOPAL " !!

 

Amen, Brother !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------------

 

I apologize for the lapse in communication of the message in an

" appealing way " raising anger in some. Apparently, we are thinking in

two different languages! But, my request is, PLEASE DO NOT THROW THE

STONES EVERYWHERE IN YOUR ANGER. The moderators as well as the forum

has nothing to do with it. It is me who has caused ... and hence, aim

the stones at the cause. If there is any blame, that is mine. Pl. do

not give credit of that to anybody else :).

 

Somebody has advised me to use the word " peace " rather than

" happiness " . Tathaastu. Amen. I will. Any other word is also fine ...

I have no problem.

 

Some felt that Bhoga, Sukha, Ananda etc are treated the same in the

message. No! All referring to one's attitude behind one's action can

never be the same. Let me re-iterate, the perceptions are not the

same, but the essence is. In fact, the essence of anything and

everything is the same. Vaasudevah Sarvam.

 

Some objections that the message had no relevance to house-holder ...

Sorry for assuming that it was implicit ...

 

Somehow some have extracted a notion that " taking drugs is OK " from

the message! I am baffled as well as apolegitic for such grossly

unintended meaning being grasped :(. What was intended was that " even

respectful activities such as Bhajan, meditation, and even Samadhi

could be practiced as Bhoga if we believe these are responsible for

the the ever-present absolute ... let us be alert in our practices.

As a house-holder one need to be extra-cautious due to the

expectations from the

family and society " :

 

Na karmanaam anaarambhaan naishkarmyam purusho'shnute |

Na cha sanyasanaadeva siddhim samadhigacchhati ||

 

We can talk on this for years and centuries and millineums ... and

yet the communication will falter as we insist for familiarity in the

expressions ... If you disagree, feel free. Being angry ... think

about it.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

All seem to strongly agree that " Ananda " or " Peace " is Absolute ...

and yet strongly insist that many things should be excluded from

That! That baffles me. Ananda (not the word, but the essence

referred to) IS

Absolutely Absolute - Vasudevah Sarvam. THAT is everything being all-

inclusive.

Then it has to be any word as such. It has to be any thing as such.

I cannot

fathom how anything in this world can be excluded from the happiness

that we are

referring to! Your agreement is also THAT. Your disagreement as

well. Your anger

as well!

 

Vidyaa-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi hastini |

Shuni chaiva shvapaake cha ... aanando'nanda eva hi ||

 

Everything is, in fact, entitled for the happiness equally - be that

a great scholar, a great saint, a great truth seeker, an animal such

as cow or

elephant or a dog, or be that a dog eater ... happiness is

happiness as such. I cannot claim any right on the happiness " more "

irrespective of what I do or think. I know that I am entitled for the

happiness as anything else in this world is. There cannot be anything

in this world other than THAT, The Truth which is often referred to

by various words such as happiness, peace, absolute, truth, bliss,

etc. I

consider it to be the greatest ignorance if I consider any specific

word to be

singularly adequate to mean THAT.

 

The words are NOT there to mean The Absolute ... but to mean what we

perceive. After all, any word is nothing but a figment of our

cognition only! Therefore, we shall revisit the words Bhoga, Sukha

and Ananda again. For communication sake, following is what they

represent for me:

 

Bhoga: The notion of happiness is projected on to a perceived

entity - substance, action, perception or experience. Even if one

attains happiness through Samadhi, if the beleif is that the

happiness is established in Samadhi, I consider that notion or

attitude as Bhoga only. The objects of body, mind and desire

dominate the belief here.

THIS IS THE WORST STATE OF ONE'S ATTITUDE. I am baffled how anybody

could get a contrary meaning out of it?!

 

Sukha: The notion of happiness claimed by an individual. Even if it

is claimed by a saint, my considerations remain the same. On positive

side, it promotes individual independence while it can also promote

pride on its negative side. The subject dominates the belief here.

Again it is a limited state as one's perception dominates. I am again

confused how people could mix-up what was expressed from two distinct

angles - one from individual attitude and another from transcendental

perception.

 

Ananda: Just being happy where happiness remains just happiness. As a

matter of fact, any pure objective presence where every object is

treated as itself and the subject as itself without any imposed

qualities is also THAT only. No subject, no object, no beliefs ...

but just THAT remains. Though the word is conceived in one's

cognition, what is meant her is " transcendental " . That is The

Absolute presence of reference here. Therefore, everything is Ananda

only from transcendental perception.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

I have difficulty in understanding how The Absolute can be viewed

with any filter - be it a word, or a concept or a theory or objects

or even the whole universe. THAT cannot be trapped in anything ...

yet, THAT is everything as such. In other words, if we look at

everything objectively without any trace of subjective notions, we

are always happy because we are THAT. THAT IS THE VALUE FOR THE

HOUSEHOLDER, OR AS A MATTER FACT, FOR ANYONE ELSE AS SUCH.

 

Karma brahmodbhavam viddhi brahmakshara samudbhavam |

Tasmaat sarvagatam brahma nityam yagnye pratishthitam ||

 

Everything (though the actions are in context here) " is " THAT and yet

none can " get " or " have " THAT. The value of the appreciation of our

ignorance in our appreciation of life - distinction between Bhoga,

Sukha and Ananda in our perception - is of paramount importance to

realize the unity beneath everything (including the notions of

pleasures, happiness, bliss, etc.) in our natural presence (Sahaja

Sthiti). If one (including a house-holder) involves in the daily

activities naturally, The Bliss is revealed in the very presence

irrespectively.

 

THE PURPOT IS, ALL VARIATIONS REMAIN WITHIN THE IMAGINATIONS

(NOTIONS,

EMOTIONS, RELATIONS) OF THE PERCEIVER (THE EGO) ... NOT IN THE MERE

PRESENCE OF ANYTHING (INCLUDING THE EGO).

 

Therefore, nobody need to worry whether they are in right

circumstances for receiving the abundance of happiness (be it a

house-holder or anybody else). If we let ourselves " be " what we are

while letting everything else as they " are " we are always happy. If

we try " get " or " have " anything including our own identities, we are

doomed to suffer. Nobody has strength to " get " or " have " happiness -

not even gods let alone great saints and scholars. Everybody is

entitled to " be " happy as they are no matter who it is ... be a dog

or a dog eater ... does not matter.

 

RELEVANCE: DUTY FOR A HOUSE-HOLDER (FOR EVERYONE ELSE AS WELL) IS TO

NURTURE OBJECTIVITY IN LIFE. RESPECT EVERYTHING AS THAT.

 

Happiness IS just happiness ... Truth IS just truth ... anything IS

just anything ... no matter how we attempt to look at things around.

The beleif that what we see is completely representative of what is

seen is THE IGNORANCE that is the cause of all miseries. As a

house-holder (let me make this explicit as some have difficulty in

potential irrelevance of the statements here), as well as anybody

else, the ONE AND ONLY FOOL-PROOF way to be happy is to let ourselves

be involved in the actions presented to us naturally showing no trace

of hesitance.

 

Karma brahmodbhavam viddhi ... no matter what ...

 

RELEVANCE: DUTY FOR A HOUSE-HOLDER (FOR EVERYONE ELSE AS WELL) IS TO

RESIST DEVELOPING NOTIONS ON ANYTHING FUELING THE INHERENT TENDENCIES

OF LIKES AND DISLIKES.

 

Jitaatmanah prashaantasya paramaatmaa samaahitah |

Sheetoshnasukhaduhkheshu tathaa maanaavamaanayoh ||

 

Again, we can talk on this for years and centuries and milleniums ...

and yet the communication will falter as we insist for familiarity in

the expressions ... If you disagree, feel free. Being angry ... think

about it.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Just a few 'principles/laws' from Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj . The

Question of these ever failing does not arise :

 

1 Service destroys Mamata (mineness)

 

2 When you provide happiness to others , your own desire for

enjoyment reduces. Desire is gross form of Ego !

 

3 You can't renounce what belongs to you. You can only renounce that

which is continuousy renouncing you.

 

4 Either, When you serve, just don't consider the servicee to be

yours ! Alnernately, serve those who you don't consider to be

me/mine. Result is same.

 

5 Bhog and Sangrah - Consumption and Accumulation of worldly things-

is not allowing you to realise God !

 

6 A grihastha renounces 'enjoyership' (fruits of actions) first. He

acts with 'doership' in him. Renunciation of fruits of action

destroys effortlessly the 'doership' as a law ! In case of Jnana

Yoga, sadhak first renounces 'doership' ! Renunciation of 'doership'

destroys effortlessly 'enjoyership' as a law ! The world is nothing

except " doing " and " enjoying/suffering " !!

 

7 World is not the place at all for pleasures or pains. For

pleasures (bhog) , go to heaven. For pains go to hell. For mixed, be

bird/animal/tree etc But once you are human, rise above them.

 

8 When you renounce, however/with whatever attitude, peace will

generate in you ! Ego takes a beating with every disconnection.

 

9 Discrimination (Viveka) is God given advisor to you. Respect it.

 

A grihastha (householder) whose primary sadhana comprises

of 'doing' , should not worry excessively about 'doership' or the

false notion that it fuels ego ! No- such notions are 'evils in the

garb of good' !! He should renounce 'enjoyership' of results.

Doership goes later on automatically/effortlessly by operation of

Divine Laws.

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

-------------------------

 

Gruhastha means a householder. In other words a married man. The

head of the household has a duty to see to the well being of his

family and to do everything he can to see that they are looked after

well. Afterwards he has a duty towards society especially those who

suffer due to poverty or ill health. If he serves them then he is

serving God as well as because they are also God's creations.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

---------------------------

.. " When the self is known……. All is known , " This is the highest

understanding to be imbibed by a sadhaka.

 

2.Effort for Self realization, thus, is the highest sadhana .

 

3.If the self is realized ……….. all the questions get answered from

within oneself . The duties of a Pativrata, the duties of a

Householder ( Pati), the duties towards each amongst the various

members of the family ………. happen to get understood , and expressed

in action, spontaneously , by the knowers of truth…… by the self

realized .

 

But …………………..

 

4.Self realization is not easy. It does not even occur to most

people, as the primary purpose of Life. So, in the family, it will

seldom be that even one member would be self realized ……… All would

be what they are ……….. egos evolving at their own pace and according

to their own choices …………. And, in this age of Kaliyuga …………… there

is naught but the ego in manifestation everywhere ……

 

And…………..

 

5.The family is the smallest unit of society. The values that the

society wishes to be practised within itself , have to begin as

practise within the Family. The values practised within the family

will automatically get practised in the society.

 

6.The family and Society are deeply linked. If the Family

practises Dharma, the society will be a Dharmic society. If the

society encourages Dharma, and is Dharmic, the family too will have

a tendency to live the life of Dharma .

 

7.Keeping the above in view, for harmonious living , wherein the

highest values get lived and practised in action, the Rishis and

Munis , the realized ones, laid down the Principles of Dharma( the

Sanatana Dharma ) as also the duties to be practised by the various

members of the family, beginning with the Pativrata Dharma and the

Patnivrata Dharma, Vrata means ............... self-imposed

discipline for the sake of self evolution. Discipline is defined as

self-imposed sacrifice of ego for the larger Good of the greater

number . Discipline is the sacrifice , in which all benefit and

achieve their individual goals .

 

8.Now, the Family comprises of the pati, the patni, the progeny.

 

It would not need much intelligence to logically arrive at the

conclusion that harmony we seek within our own selves must begin as

expression within the family; and, it can only be so, if all the

members know their duties and responsibilities towards each other,

and these duties should occur from within each member so as to be

expressed in action spontaneously, easily and lovingly .

 

But, as we said earlier ……… that is only possible , if every member

is self realized . From this , it becomes easy to arrive at the

conclusion that the first duty of each member is self -

realisation.

 

9.But, the family comprises of husband , wife and children. And, the

children would only follow what their parents do. THUS, both husband

and wife must have their first duty as the realisation of the

self .

 

Ha !

 

Now comes the rub . Where do things go wrong ? Things go wrong,

because the husband focuses only on what duties the wife should be

performing . The wife focuses only on what she should get out of the

husband , what his duties are !...... No-one focuses on Duty as

kartavaya ( One's own duty lovingly performed so as to please God

and thus move into self realization ) And, thus we find around us

today, turmoil in every home, discord in every home, with husband

and wife constantly at each others throats, and children rebelling

and even abusing their parents .

 

10. The way to self –realisation is given in various Upanishads ,

granthas, puranas, smritis, bhagvatam, and so on. Bhagvada Geetha is

the quintiscence of all the Upanishads .

 

11.It would be logical to say …. That a wise sadhaka would try to

walk the shortest, obstacle-less path to self-realization.

 

12.And for the true Sadhaka, there are three very valuable

scriptures ( amongst scores more ), which show the way to self

realization. These are the Bhagvada Geetha , the Ashtang Yoga sutras

of Patanjali, and the Vivekachudamani by Shankra. All the three are

complete and competent in themselves to lead the sadhaka to the

ultimate fulfillment . At the same time …. they compliment each

other , and are not exclusive of the other. But, it is best for the

sadhaka to stick to anyone of them for walking the Path

assiduousally , under the guidance of a self-realised Guru , if

possible .The importance of a Guru can never be over-emphasised .

 

Ah, friends, if we want to bring joy, happiness and true progress

within the society, it will have to be by clearly understanding

that practice of the discipline for self realization will have to be

by defining the duties of the husband and wife clearly towards each

other , and through the understanding that these duties are self-

imposed for the evolution of the self so as to realize God in

this very lifetime.

 

All creativity in Nature is the outcome of two principles, the male

principle and the female principle. These principles govern even

the insentient creation. But, when the evolution brings us to

sentience , the intelligence given to human beings by God or

Existence was to to reach the pinnacle of achievement ……. God

realization ……… and society living as Gods . This is Dharma. The

principal players in this are a man and woman , and the unit is the

family. Discipline will have to begin with these two players . The

discipline will have to be practiced by the wife and the husband for

the sake of their own self . The Bhagvada Geetha is the guide to

discipline , the practice of the thirty attributes given in

Chapter 13, irrespective of whether one is the wife , or a husband.

BUT, we will also have to devise the individual Dharma of the

husband and wife toward each other , This the ancient rishis and

munis did ……. But today, the wife and the husband both flout it ,

and fight regarding its veracity. The husband of today does not

understand that he is responsible to respect the woman and, the wife

of today refuses to set an example to her children in love sacrifice

and obedience, even though both carry on reciting the ancient

mantras " matri devo bhava, pitri devo bhava, acharya devo bhave,

atithi devobhava "

 

Every wife and mother is enchanted by the mantra ` matri-devo

bhava'………… but is reluctant to be a great mother .

 

Every father would like to be worshipped in accordance with the

Mantra ` pitri-devo-bhava'……….. but may not wish treat his parents

worshipfully.

 

And what about the mantra , we used to hear a few decades ago …………'

pati devo bhava `………. We hear of it no more …………..

 

Nobody is to be blamed ………….. neither man , nor woman ………… it is

the march of time ……….

 

Everyone shouts at the other to practice the same values , which one

oneself refuses to practice.

 

The family, the vey womb of Dharma is breaking up if not already

broken. But there is still the great Hope for revival. Out of the

awareness of the evil of Adharma all around ,Dharma now is becoming

an individual quest. Perhaps, one day again, soon, out of this

individual self-realisation, the family will , once again, come

together ; but, it will then again be a Dharmic wife and a Dharmic

husband, and their progeny worshipping their parents …….. so that

all may fulfill the purpose of Life , God- Realisation.

 

A Golden age of Dharma may yet come again…………. may be not in our

lifetime, maybe not even in this yuga( for, when this happens, we

would not be able to call it kaliyuga , it will become

Satyuga ,,,,,,,,,,, ) ………….. God only knows .All is His Will. The

movement of Time and Space, is itself God's Will.

 

Ah, dear sadhakas, who so do choose…………… let us continue with our

sadhna .

 

Ah, where were we …? Bhagvada Geetha ……….. chapter ….. shaloka ….. ?

 

AUM narinder bhandari

-------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Narinderji, Please kindly be concise in future postings. Thank

you, From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

 

--------------------------

Dear Sadak Sri Madan Kaura,

I very happily accept your correction. What is true is to be

corrected is our Dharma. It is not Kunthi but Droupati who forgave.

Such quality comes from the persons with whom one is associated.

Droupati association with Sri Krishna.

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Grihastha (Household) is a place where by serving 'others' a person

must strive to get freedom from the ocean of birth and death. When

you 'serve' invariably your desire (gross form of ego) takes a hit.

Grihasthas therefore MUST use 'viveka'- discrimination frequently in

day to day life.

 

Trees also live; and so do animals and birds. He alone lives (in

essence) whose mind is alive by reflection. One must in Grihastha

(household) inculcate 'good qualities' in him. Human life itself and

in that too the ashram of 'grihastha' provides you opportunity of

being 'noble' . One must never drop 'nobleness' in him. NEVER !

Human life is given to renounce Bhog/sukha/happiness not to seek it.

Real happiness lies in sacrifice/renunciation. Peace emerges out of

renunciation( BG 12:12 ) . Trust Scriptures only, as Madanji Kaura

said.

 

Those who shun nobleness or contemplate dropping them are aged asses-

carrying burdens only. The scriptures is a burden for one without

discrimination; knowledge is a burden for the passionate(bhogi) ;

mind is a burden for one WITHOUT PEACE,( for one who does not

renounce or sacrifice worldly pleasures/possessions in favour of

family members/ others/world at large) and the body is a burden for

one who does not know SELF or tries to erase/forget his true

identity. For such people, without discrimination, the mind runs in

vain from here and from there perplexed, just as a dog from distance

to a greater distance in a village.

 

In Grihastha (household) therefore one has excellent opportunity of

deriving PEACE by merely renunciation of his own happiness and

possessions in favour of family members/ world at large.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

For every sadhak " household " is a challenge. Here he has to " do " !

How to be a " great doer " ? Read Scriptures to know that, as

suggested by Sadhak Madanji Kaura !

 

He is called a great 'grihashtha' (householder):-

 

1 Who performs duties prescribed by the scriptures according to

circumstances, with a mind free from doubt or fear.

 

2 Who assumes indifferently, love and hate, pleasure and pain,

likeable or unlikeable works, and fruit/reward and its absence

 

3 Who acts with his excitement/anxiety gone, who is possessed of

silence, free from egotism, stainless and is one who has given up

jeolousy.

 

4 Whose mind is mind is not stained by bad or improper doubt in

considerations of right and wrong in good and bad actions

 

5 Who neither regrets nor rises in his mood due to a pure and even

mind and is free from excitement and joy.

 

6 Who undertaking action and non-action and doership, remaining

indifferent , becomes exceedingly even internally.

 

7 Who , passing through weal and woe, does not indeed give up his

equanimity, and is calm by his very nature

 

8 Whose mind is quite even in circumstances of birth, existence,

death and among objects having rise and fall.

 

9 WHO SERVES, SERVES and SERVES to those people whom he

considers " mine " with those things which he considers to be " mine " -

thus relinquishes what is " mine " and thereby kills the very shelter

of " mineness " - the ME or I-ness !!

 

There is no doubt that all creatures, of whatever nature, strive

only for happiness. So does a 'householder'. Here

the 'discrimination' (viveka) plays vital role. He must distinguish

between Bhoga/happiness and Ananda/Bliss. Scriptures distinguish

categorically. Why? Because it is vital to do ! We must understand

the difference between temporary and permanent, real and unreal,

relative and absolute. When Sadhaks do so, with the help of Viveka,

then surely ugliness will be seen by them among the lovely; non

being on top of being; impermanence will be observed among the

permanence, and unreality among the seemingly real objects.

 

Bhogas ( seemingly real but actually unreal- objects of pleasure and

enjoyment of objects of sense) are only the expanded hoods of,

Kaliya Naga (SERPENT) referred in Scriptures (Shreemad Bhagavatam)

during description of Shree Krishna Leela . They just sting when

touched a little.

 

Which wise men and more particularly which SADHAK should take

delight in those Bhogas, under disguise of Ananda, which bhogas are

likes the shades of umbrellas in the form of exhanded hoods of

Nagas - serpents ? No one should, in fact. Never a grihastha , never

a sadhak, never a human being. NEVER !

 

And THUS mineness gets destroyed, and THUS as suggested by Brother

Mike entire world becomes a large family. You (water) can perceive

ocean only when you (it) come (s) out of small water pot !! Hence

serve first those who you consider " me/mine " . That breaks the

bottle !!

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Ram Ram

 

Last night I was hearing SATSANG of MAHARAJ JI of the day of Since

April-1991, that time there is a bright way in my mind that is WHAT

IS GEETA? MEANING OF GEETA? please rectify my mistake about above

question.

 

If there is a single mistake or wrong question then please " MUJE

BHOLA JAAN KE MAAF KAR DENA " " Consider me to be ignorant / innocent

and Forgive

me " according to MAHARAJ JI ( 18 April-

1991's satsang)

 

 

Jag Mohan

--------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

JAGAT BHAR KI ROSHNI KE LIYE, KARODO KI JINDAGI KE LIYE ..... SOORAJ

RE JALATE RAHNA !!

 

For spreading light in the dark universe, giving life to all , O

Sun .... Kindly keep burning !!

 

Words can never express our gratitude to all sadhaks in this forum.

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Tyaag / Bhog / Tapasya / Grihastha / Sin / Virtue !!

 

With permission of this Divine Forum Moderators , I would like to

narrate 'real life' description of aforesaid terms. Read it with

reference to 'Kaliyuga' trends and BG 18:32. Slightly long , but I

hope it will serve many : I got married very early and my Hubby then

was only 17 and me 15. He is very sharp but once we saw a movie

called 'Chitralekha'. There was one ' Kalyugi' song in that -

absolutely appeared even to the best of minds as Bhajan. My

hubby 'acted' on that temporarily and after paying penalty and upon

coming in touch with Swamiji , in early 80s , he realised grave

error. That is what Swamiji called 'evil in the garb of good' .

Reproducing that 'bhajan' to Sadhaks so that they may never get

enticed to the juiciness of the same:

 

SANSAAR SE BHAGE PHIRATE HO BHAGWAAN KO TUM KYAA PAOGE ! IS JANAM KO

BHI APNA NA SAKE, US JANAM MAIN BHI PACHHTAOGE !!

 

You are running away from the world, how will you get God? You are

not able to enjoy this world properly, you will repent up there

(after death) also.

 

YEH BHOG BHI EK TAPASYA HAI, TUM TYAAG KE MARE KYAA JANO! APMAAN

RACHIYATA KA HOGA, RACHNA KO AGAR THUKRAOGE !!

 

This 'bhog' (consumption of worldly pleasures- say alcohol) is also

an austerity. You are not able to appreciate it because of pre

conceived notion of " renunciation/sacrifice " . You shall be

insulting the Creator , if you reject/renounce His creation !!

 

HAM KAHATE HAIN YEH JAG APNA HAI, TUM KAHATE HO JHOOTHA SAPANA HAI !

HAM JANAM BITAA KAR JAYENGE, TUM JANAM GAVAA KAR JAOGE!!

 

I say that this world is " mine " . You say that this world is false

and dream. I will win and live in this world and then die, you will

lose in this world and then die.

 

YEH PAAP HAI KYAA YEH PUNYA HAI KYAA, REETO PAR DHARAM KI MOHARE

HAIN ! HAR YUG MAIN BADALATE DHARMO KO KAISE ADARSH BANAAOGE !!

 

What is " paap " (sin) ? What is " punya " ( virtue). They are only

rituals on which there is a stamp of 'dharma'. How can you idolise

that 'dharma' which changes in every 'yuga' (changes with time) ?

 

Hubby carried these lines to his heart. Once he asked Swamiji- Sir

everything has been made by God, why not consume it? Do we not

insult Creator if we reject creation? The Great Swamiji replied- God

has made poison also, stool also, will you eat it? He became

speechless !! That changed him ! Today he says each and every line

of this song is wrong !

 

That is how evil comes in the garb of good, Divine Sadhaks in this

Kaliyuga !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

Hari Om

 

As per my experience a Karma Yogi sheds his ego automatically by

serving others so much so that in the end 'server', 'servicee'

and 'service' all three become one element. 'Good qualities' in a

human are the part of his very natural self and are never required

to be renounced- be it tyaag (sacrifice/renunciation) or forgiveness

or compassion , or tolerance or truthfulness, or humility or non

violence -they all are 'divine properties' - the very nature of

Paramatma ! Can Sun renounce light? I agree with Brother Mike- ego

can't be killed with ego- never ! It is only

sacrifice/renunciation/tyaag of " mineness " that kills ego and of

course the grace of Paramatma to the surrendered devotee. What kind

of ego a mom carries while feeding her children?

 

I agree with Madanji Kaura. We must act as per Scriptures. Only

Scriptures are the proof or the yardsticks of ideal conduct.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Shree Hari

 

Dear Sathyanarayanji

 

Minor correction - In your Mahabharat example - Arjuna brings

Ashwathama to Draupadi and not to Kunti.

 

Thank you for beautiful illustrations, they are indeed very

inspiring and fitting to the duty of the householder. Nothing

personal, would like to share a common observation - in few

instances, there have been great responses from our learned scholars

in Gita-talk forum but at times, the question at hand has not been

specifically addressed. Our moderators have been very patient about

this. Pls. forgive me for being so blunt about this observation,

kindly take my comments in a constructive way only.

 

Thanks to Gee Waman for posing a good question -

 

WHAT IS HOUSEHOLDER'S DUTY ACCORDING TO GITAJI?

 

In this particular setting, as a Kshatriya, Arjuna's duty is to

fight the war, protect the masses from the unrighteousness rule.

Depending upon the setting, circumstances and the situation at hand,

the individual's duty does vary, Arjuna too is a householder, in

household circumstances he will be playing a different role, his

duty would not be fighting the war. But the principles outlined in

our scriptures do apply: the householder's duty is described broadly

in Gitaji much in detail in many verses but for the sake of brevity,

following few are referenced here:

 

Gita: (2/ 31-38), (2/48),

(3/8-9) (3-19), (3-21), (3-35),

(16/24)

 

Gita 2-38

" :sukhadukhe same krtva, labhalabhau jayajayau

tato yudhaya yujsave, nai 'vam papam avapsyasi "

 

Meaning:

Treating alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat,

get ready for the fight (Arjuna's duty in this setting), then,

fighting thus you will not incur sin.

 

Gita 2-48

" yogasthah kuru karmani, sangam tyaktva dhanamjaya

sidhyasidhyoh samo bhutva, samatvam yoga ecyate "

 

Meaning:

Established in Yoga, perform your duty O Dhanamjaya (Arjuna),

abandoning attachment, being even-minded in success and failure;

even-mindedness is called Yoga.

 

Gita 3-19

" tasmad asaktah satatam, kayam karma samacara

asakto hy acaran karma, param apnoti purushah "

 

Meaning:

Therefore, always efficiently do your duty without attachment. Doing

work without attachment, man attains the Supreme.

 

Gita 16-24

" tasmac chastram pramanam te, karyakaryavasthitau

jnatva sastravidhanoktam, karma karatum iha 'rhasi "

 

Meaning:

Therefore, let the scripture be your authority in determining what

ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Knowing this, you

should act only in accordance with the sanction of scripture.

 

Humble regards,

Madan Kaura

---------------------------

Simple answer could be....

 

To know your true self and help everyone around i.e. family and

friends

in knowing themselves.....while doing (without the doer ship)

everything else......

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

 

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear sadaks,

Scarifies--When Sri Rama asked to give away his throne to Bharat,

Puraan says HIS face was like just flowered lotus and brightness on

HIS face. The message was from Kaykeyi (Step mother) not from

Dasarath who actually said. Sri Rama never even verified the order

from Dasarath. Means sacrifies not done with benefit or done

knowingly (Sri Rama was not knowing the act was sacrifies). The best

part was when Sri Rama returned from forest HE first went to the

hunch back lady who spoilt Kaikeyi mind. DEAR SADAKS, kaikeyi mind

got corupted because of desire (which is ongoing discussion) of her

son. There is a saying Do Dharma with one hand let not the other

hand know. Concept of Sacrifies. A small iota thought of the action

in mind is enough to bring Ego in sacrifies.

 

Jesus crucified knows body soul are differant. If someone feels

happy in crucifing the body HE was silent. HE said, " Nothing happens

without the will of my Father " . So the action of sacrifies was not

owned by Jesus, the action owned by HIS father. Before dying HE

said, " Oh father in heavens let them be spared as they know not what

they are doing " . So the action of the crucifer was also disowned by

Jesus, which in turn disowned in mind level.

Five Bala Pandavas was slined by Aswathama after the war. Sri

Krishna and Arjuna catches Aswathama brings to Kunthi. She says let

Aswathama go since he is Guru`s son. Kunthi sacrifies was a concept.

Sadaks know Baktha Gora pot maker. His enimies broke his pots to

bits whitch he was carrying by cart for sale. He started picking the

bits from floor. The enemies asked whether he was mad. He replied

the bits mat hurt the passer by, so he is clearing the way. Pots was

sacrifice and picking denotes forgiveness. Both action were not even

in mind level Same Gora due to quarrel with his wife who said not to

touch her there after. Gora was NO way different from daily

household and in showing affection to his wife, but remained

untouched living in same bed room. Just a word from his wife in

anger not to touch her, he sacrificed his years of life which we

call it happiness.

 

Buddha walking for bath. Some said abusive language. He actually

forgot then and there, but his disciples reminded him. Buddha said

when did that happened. Mind level forgiveness which not owned. So

was Sri Rama, when some one asked forgivness for their misbehaviour

HE used to say " When it happened " . We store everything in our mind

to full extent, leaving no place for Bagavan WHO keeps on saying

leave it to ME (Surrender). Same thing said, in Christianity, " Empty

thyself, I will fill it " . We wont empty for Sri Krishna to come in,

still I hear from some sadaks, " Is God gone on holidays when I am

sufferings " .

 

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

On Ashokji's comments:

It is equally possible that acts of sacrifice and that of empathy

both can boost ego or both may not necessarily boost ego, depending

on the inner postures while acting.

As I understand it, Happiness is not contrary to anything or anyone,

as in Happiness there is " nobody " that is happy, is totally devoid

of " me " . It just is That, Happiness!

Our true nature, upon realization, is experienced as Happiness-

Bliss itself. It is welcoming Presence in us which welcomes

sacrifices with joy. It says " yes " to everything arising/appearing

in it, the reason why they arise/appear in the first place.

Sometimes doing things for others can also strengthen ego if in

thoughts " doer " creeps up while doing.

Forgiveness is the greatest virtue in practical life, sure. But in

forgiving if " forgiver " , disguised " me " shows up to forgive

the " other " , it may not make us peaceful, but can boost ego.

Forgiving, to me, is to overlook, or look over ego in others and

give understanding. It is to see that the person is not bad but

his/her acts are so, due to ignorance.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

 

Raam! Raam!!

 

We are all grateful to GT Moderators for sheer service being

rendered to humanity through management of this divine web site.

With reference to the topic under discussion , however, may I state

that for the first time I saw them agreeing to a totally wrong

statements. Since it is very dangerous from 20000 + sadhak point

of view hence I must point out. Consider the following:

 

" As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES.. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH AS HAPPINESS and ANAND AS BLISS. In your response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators) "

 

What does it clarify? How spirituality is bi-modal in nature? HOW

CAN EGO ITSELF RELINQUISH ITS CHERISHED I -ness or mineness? Answer

me ! How can Ego relinquish itself ? What are natural agents,

substantial agents, social agents, psychological agents ? What was

wrong in considering Happiness and Sukh as worldly and Anand as

Bliss to be the goal of each of us? Why we should equate them so

casually? How can an inert thing like TRUE FREEDOM " itself " empower

itself to execute on its own ........?

 

Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's beliefs is deceit and

hypocracy. ( WHAT BEHAVIOUR ? WHOSE BELIEF? ) /

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. ( WHY ONE SHOULD NOT

BECOME SPECIFIC? WHY ONE SHOULD NOT BECOME SADHAK? HOW ANYTHING WE

DO IS OK? DRUG ADDICTS ARE OK? )

 

Shyama C

-------------------------------

Radhey Radhey

 

Sadhak Sushilji ! I am happy you covered yourself quickly against a

difficult note which you wrote that " Sacrifice and Happiness are

contrary " . I agree fully with your explanation except Sr No 1. It is

Sr No 2 till the end which is absolutely correct. The fact is that

every sacrifice ( renunciation) instantly produces happiness.

INSTANTLY - even if that renunciation is of body waste. It is LAW !

That it boosts ego, etc they are all craps. NO RENUNCIATION CAN EVER

FUEL EGO ! Every renunciation reduces Ego ! There is no substance in

classifying Bhoga, Happiness (sukha) and Ananda and then eloquently

concluding - " Just words....nothing more " . " If you look closely -

Happiness is happiness " !! Sheer twist of words and nothing ,

nothing more than that ! They are not just words , there are

distinctions between them as wide as are south and north poles.

 

You have not looked closely at all Mr Naga Narain. Bhoga is

temporary. Bhoga is relative. ANANDA is absolute, self proven. Dont

say so loosely whatever comes to mind. Think deeply. Have you never

heard the word PEACE ? If yes, why did not you talk about it? What

is happiness ? Know Mr Naga and accept it humbly that- Happiness is

PEACE !! Says Gita - ASHANTASYA KUTAH SUKHAM ? ( Where is happiness

to him , who is not peaceful.? ) Dont just say for the sake of

saying.

 

But I have a request to make to GT Moderators. Please insist that

there is RELEVANCE to the Q asked in the response. Sushilji ,

Vyasji, Mike, Pratapji , Jee Jee Shashikalajee all talked

about " Duties of Household " and then came finer points of

discussion. Did Mr Naga Narain talk a single word reg the Question

of Mr GeeWaman? This is not how the deliberations become focussed

and fruitful.

 

Radhey Radhey

Nisha Chatterji

--------------------------------

To GT Moderators

 

Re-Read this again and kindly explain:

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-

triggered,whether it is established within or borrowed from around,

it has the same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the

ego. Anybody can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes

alcohol why he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be

always to forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard.

If you analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to

analyze), it becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at

least to forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there.

Whether a person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance

(e.g.coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans,

etc.),and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

WHAT DOES IT MEAN ? IT MEANS THAT IF YOU ARE CONSUMING DRUGS , (

substance triggered) - so long as under the influence of drugs you

are forgetting I- ness and Me- ness , you have established yourself

to the HIGHEST ANANDA level and have achieved the goal of human

birth ??? WHAT EXACTLY IS MEANT BY THIS?

 

And GT Moderators are thanking ?? along with boldly reference to

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj !!!

 

No ! I dont want to be a party to such ecstacies! Sorry. I regret I

became member of this group.

 

Audrey Rodrigues

--------------------------------

Hare Hare

 

Recent deliberations raise more Questions than answers. How can any

SADHAK boldly state that BHOGA/SUKHA/ANANDA are same thing, only a

matter of attitude, the effect is the same !!! Incomprehensible !

 

Statements such as same Ananda gets converted into happiness/bhoga

etc. are taking us no where in this WORD PLAY. The fact is that

there is huge difference in EXPERIENCE/ VERY NATURE/ VERY ELEMENTARY

of these elements. One is relative,transitory, unnatural, unreal and

another is ABSOLUTE and NATURAL, and real. What has attitude got

to do with it is totally unclear? and mainly what does it have to

do with the Question of Mr Gee Waman?

 

Bandook Singh Rathod

 

--------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Friends

I refer to the Gita Talk Moderator's request for explanation on my

statement 'Sacrifice and happiness are contrary'

1.Mr Naga Narayan has explained it correctly and adequately that the

notion or act of sacrifices boosts ego.

2.Act done with compassion and empathy for the benefit of other

will not boost ego and the act itself will be joy.

3.Sacrifice assumes forgoing something whereas in reality the

happiness by doing something for others is much more.

4.Sacrifice ,in a way ,focuses attention on other whereas happiness

focuses on self.

5.Sacrifice assumes owning and parting with something valuable

whereas for a sadhak nothing is owned and nothing is parted with.

 

If anything done which does not boosts ego it is ok but mind is vey

subtle

 

There is fundamentally no difference of opinion in importance of

sacrifice but one has to careful about it's impact on ego.

 

Mr Naga Narayan has also mentioned Forgiveness.

 

I am willing to forgive now is the first step in forgiving. Only

saying 'I forgive now completely and unconditionaly' is not

sufficient.Major issues and problems can be resolved by one

statement 'I am willing to forgive now' It can be made a daily 5-10

minutes routine every night.

 

But even more important is ' I seek forgiveness now' This single

sentence can work miracle.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

------------------------------

 

Q: SUKH = HAPPINESS; and ANAND = BLISS. In your response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand.

 

Normally, the scriptures refer to the same in three levels - Ananda,

Sukha and Bhoga. Though they all address the same experience, the

attitude behind the experience differ dramatically depending on the

ignorance and inertia hoarded in an individual.

 

Ananda is the state of bliss where there are no attitudes - nobody

to claim the ownership of the experience. As soon as an owner (the

ego) crops up, the absolute experience becomes a memory in the

owners perception. The recall of the absolute bliss is often

referred to as Sukha. When an external agent is given the authority

over the same experience - the belief that the joy is inherent in

the objects of pleasures - it is called Bhoga.

 

In other words,

 

Bhoga – The objects are let to own the (notion of) happiness – the

ego owns the anticipation of the experience thereupon. The

individual craves for the availability of the objects of pleasures

and enterst the whirlpool of miseries.

Sukha – The subject owns the (memory of) happiness - the ego owns

the belief of enjoyership. The individual elates in his own prowess

to command the experience. On the positive side, it allows the ego

to pause to wonder and ponder `what is the nature of the happiness

and what exactly is its focus?'

Ananda – The Happiness remains as The Absolute where both the

subject and the objects are dissolved loosing their identities and

ownerships altogether.

 

But, if you look at it closely, The Happiness is The Happiness

whether one entertained apparent notion (Bhoga) or inherent notion

(Sukha) or just be THAT (Ananada). All the words are referring to

the same … but the first two have no clue of what IT really is!

Space is space and time is time whether one is congizant of the same

or not. So is The Hapiness … IT is what IT IS, nothing else.

 

Just words … nothing more …

 

Q: ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is

having our eye on other's welfare and benefit. This is true

sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING,

ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS

BENEFICIAL TO US?

 

Yes! Many other realized souls also advise the same to the worldly

men the same way!! Nobody can tell otherwise in all sanity when

the " good living " is in the context.

 

I am not well-versed on Swamiji's works. But, whatever few things I

have understood so far from his works is as follows. Swamiji

emphasises on all the good qualities when the context is relative

life. All the qualities such as non-violence, sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. are good for keeping healthy relations within

the society on one hand and are good tools to turn one's attention

from " Bhoga " toward " Sukha " - from worldly dependence toward

individual independence to actualize the spiritual practices to

start with. Swamiji refers to this as journey from Prapancha Drishti

toward Viveka Drishti. In Viveka Drishti, clear discrimination (Ref:

Sadhan Sudhaa Sindhu, Vibhaga Yoga) of the perceived dualities and

polarities in absolute clarity from the perceptional view point

itself is of paramount importance to reveal the ignorance hidden in

ones apparent knowledge. At this level, one has to see through ones

appreciation to realize what really is " good " and what really

is " bad " even from the perceptional standards. That is essential to

lead a " good living " . And, " good living " is essential for

spirituality. No arguments there.

 

The same Swamiji also continues further while educating our Viveka

Drishti toward Bhagavaddrishti ( " Sukha " toward " Ananda " ) to explain

how even the acts of Deep Trans (Samadhi) - let alone regular

Bhajans, Meditations, and other good living qualities - belong to

the dominion of the Insentient World, The Prakriti. No trace of ego

is enetertained at The Ananda, The Sentient, The Purusha (Ref:

Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Bhagavattattva). The Avinaashee Ras that he

explains in the next chapter is an eye opener from this perspective.

Only THAT is present and nothing else - not even Samadhi in that

Sahaja Sthiti.

 

Therefore, it depends on the context. A Bhogi needs to be educated

to become a Sukhi … and a Sukhi seeks Ananda naturally. In the first

phase, good qualities should be imbibed … in the second phase, even

that should be dropped. Interestingly, there is no sequence in these

phases … we, as seekers, often oscillate between the three states of

happiness (Bhoga, Sukha and Ananda) due to the inertia and ignorance

gravitated within. Till we purge the lump of ignorance and inertia

out we cannot help it. However, pragmatic appreciation (Yathaartha

Gnyaana) of what we do, how we do and who we are is essential.

Somehow, I am fascinated by the second phase more than the first.

That is all. It does not mean that the first phase is of any

insignificance.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

As our Moderators note Mike's post, I would also say yes, we are a

one big (happy) family. It is happy family because happiness comes

from our bigness. If we feel divided and shrunk, we don't feel

happy. Our bigness makes us integrally one and acts as if we are

one, and hence leaves no room for conflict inherent in division.

Such bigness manifests in well being of all because whoever does

whatever is for well being of one and all.

Secondly I want to build on what Shashikalaji said on Ego.

Ego is a " sense " (perception) of separation in our Consciousness-

Atman, which is ONE, and cannot be divided into many.

This sense is also called " me " or " I " , mistaken to be an

independently existing entity.

This " me " is only a thought in mind or a feeling/sensation

(pains/pleasures) in body that we identify with and say its " me "

or " I " . Once there is " me " , mineness ensues! If we don't identify

body as " me " just as toddlers don't, there cannot be " mineness " .

Mineness can be many but " me " is only one appearing as many

mineness. " me " is hiding place for mineness.

This " me " becomes stronger with external sense perception which we

call world " out there " and thus we say " not-I or not-me " . Thus not-I

or not-me gives more credibility to " me " and viceversa. Soon the

mere sense becomes reality.

Strangly enough, " me " is never our experience! When examined, our

experience seems to be of being conscious of thoughts and sensations

of forms/objects perceived/conceived only. In otherwords,

Consciousness is the only experience upon which we superimpose body-

mind-world. Then to this-body-mind we say " me " and the other-bodies-

world become not-me.

Experientially the body appears in mind as thought; the mind and the

world, both, appear as thoughts in Consciousness. This very

Consciousness is Atman, or Brahman or Reality or Pure Soul, or

Pure " Presence-I AM " or Existence which is conscious of itself

called SELF!

SELF is Sat-Chit experience(anubhutirupah). As such it is never

embodied, rather body-mind-world are in It, It permeates the entire

universe. Everything is in It as Itself.

IF one can see the truth of it, one gets liberated, JeevnMukta.

This is ONE TRUTH, all else is Bondage!

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

In response to the comment by the moderators, to my somewhat

truncated response, I have contemplated Gitaji for what was

underlying my thoughts.

 

'A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on.

 

Taking the verses from Gitaji posted below, and looking at a profile

of a family head who has gained these attributes:

 

The man of restraint is awake

In what is night for all beings;

That in which all beings awake

Is night for the wise one who sees. B.G. 2(69)

 

The highest Self of him who has

Conquered himself and is peaceful,

Is steadfast in cold, heat, pleasure,

Pain; and honor and dishonor. B.G. 6(7)

The yogi who is content in

Knowledge and discrimination,

With senses conquered–unto him

Earth, stone, and gold are all the same. B.G. 6(8)

He attains eminence who looks

The same on well-wishers, friends, foes,

Neutral to enemies and kin,

The righteous and the unrighteous. B.G. 6(9)

 

Would not get caught up with mob mentality, understanding his duty

to create a wise and functioning family.

Being at peace, with the Divine shining through, will do what is

right, will not show favoritism, see the worth in all, including the

members of ones family. (Not to be one eyed, about the family or its

members).

Not to waste effort, in trying to buy affection within the family

with trinkets and toys even if they are sports cars etc.

Understanding that one should not judge, as all is working out as it

will (Lila). But with compassion and love one can offer sound

guidance.

(These attributes are far more global than family, but actually are

we not one big family?)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor).

 

---------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

MIKE! Thank you! BEAUTIFULLY SAID. Are we not one big family? Thus

is our PRIMARY duty AS A " ONE BIG " FAMILY MAN - " Sarvabhootahite

rataah " (Gita 12:4)? That is - May we all be absorbed in the well

being of all. What is sadhak's understanding regarding this? Does

Gita speak at all of the smaller family nucleas that we think off as

family?

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Excellent Q by GT Moderators ! There are two ahams (egos) . One that

relates with " existence " of the self (I exist) . A Jnana Yogi

establishes himself into that only. That remains in all three yogis-

Jnana, Bhakti and Karma yogis, even after liberation/kalyaan.

 

There is " another " ego which is connecting " self " (pure soul) to

inert (to world - body/mind/intellect). It is always " worldly " ego.

I am body, I am Doctor, I am rich etc. This " me " gets destroyed with

destruction of " mine " immediately as a law. What remains behind is

pure unattached free " self " !

Jeevan Mukta. Liberated while living. Janaka, Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj, Vaashishtha, Kaak Bhusandi etc had become liberated before

merging with Brahma. Their binding ego had destroyed but " I exist "

this awareness remained. " I " thus remained there. But that " I "

always remained in " Equanimity " mode- unattached !

 

In fact 'desire', 'spriha' , 'mamata' and 'ahankaar' all four are

one element only-worldly ego ! Desire is gross. " Spriha " (worry for

basic needs for body ) is subtle than desire. " Mamata " (mineness) is

more subtle than " spriha " . Ego (me) is the subtlest among the four

names of same element. Hence in " effect " you renounce

fully " mamata " , you will become " egoless " and vice versa !

 

As regards reference of Gita/Swamiji - please refer pg 137 of Sadhak

Sanjeevani where Swamiji while commenting upon BG 2:71 had stated

exactly what I have written. Read particularly second last para on

pg 137 (Hindi) of Sadhak Sanjeevani !

 

When the body is not " mine " , then I don't need anything . Desire

for what? Worry for what? When nothing is " mine " then what remains

in " me " ?

" Me " in fact is always with reference to worldly possessions, body

etc. When " mine " is gone, very basis for " me " is gone !! What

remained behind is " I exist " - this awareness only ! Unattached,

Free, Liberated - me - I exist !!

 

A Karma yogi (Grihashtha-houeshold generally) strives to

renounce " mineness " - mamata by putting his/her body, belongings,

powers etc fully into the service of the world. By doing that

his/her " mineness " first gets destroyed and thereupon ego (me -ness)

gets purified of " worldly impact/connection " ! A Jnana Yogi first

eliminates " me-ness " (ahankaar- I am doer) by renouncing worldly

activities in favour of nature ( I am not body. I don't do

anything ) and thereupon his/her mamata gets renounced. A Bhakti

yogi changes his " me-ness " from worldly to Godly ( I am of God ) and

mineness from worldly to Godly (ONLY God is mine) and thus becomes

egoless and mamtaless !! All three thus renounce " connection with

inert- world - body/mind/intellect/activity/matter " . " I exist " -

this awareness remains in them till death ! They use body, mind,

intellect - but in " equanimous mode " - unattached !!

 

Thanks ! Nothing pleases me more than such Question / Answer

sessions. A really good Question !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

THANK YOU JEE JEE! (GT MODERATORS)

--------------------------------

Thanks for the wonderful questions …

 

How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit - the

ego?

Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family man?

Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there must

be certain duties of a Householder?

 

Let us see …

 

Q: How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit -

the ego?

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-triggered,

whether it is established within or borrowed from around, it has the

same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the ego. Anybody

can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes alcohol why

he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be always to

forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard. If you

analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to analyze), it

becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at least to

forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there. Whether a

person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance (e.g.

coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans, etc.),

and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

Its uniques aspect of the happiness is its independence of all the

media through which one attains it. Also, the happiness should be

ever present everywhere. Otherwise, how can one attain it

irresepctive of the media chosen? How can one attain the same every

time consistently? How can anybody attain it any time anywhere? This

reinforces the theory that it is present across time and space,

rather it transcends space and time and therefore everything else.

 

When it is independent of everything, why should one develop

dependence on anything else? When it is ever-present everywhere in

abundance, why every one seem to struggle to pursue the same as if

in a panick that there is a scarcity of the same? That remains the

puzzle for everyone.

 

The reason why we loose sight of the happiness is the corruption

smeared by the ego who comes back to action claiming ownership over

the erstwhile experience of the happiness. Knowing the un-ownable

nature of the happiness subconciously, the ego enforces its

authority further by making a belief that the happiness is hidden in

the objects and actions because it feels it can manipulate them.

Without its own knowledge, it becomes a slave to the same ideas,

actions and objects which are its slaves in its belief. That is the

weakness of the ego … dependence on external entities such as

objects, actions and ideas to believe the presence of the happiness.

It does not understand, rather it refuses to understand, that the

very same ideas, actions or objects could provide happiness only by

removing itself from its cognition by disconnecting it from the

mechanism of relating itself to the I-ness and Mine-ness in real.

Due to its ignorance of what is happening, it becomes addicted to

the very notions, actions and objects to " forget " itself.

 

As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH = HAPPINESS and ANAND = BLISS. In you response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators)

 

Q: Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family

man?

 

When one is established in CONTENTMENT and FREEDOM how can he ever

disturb others?! Even when one is working toward THAT, how can there

be exploitation of others? Compassion floods out when one is filled

with Freedom and Contentment; compassion oozes out even when one's

vision is fixed toward THAT. Such a person can never be

inconsiderate to his environment - be it the family, or colleagues,

or fellow travellers, or any stranger on the street. Compassion to

others is an eventuality, a natural eventuality ascertaining the

abundance of happiness within. Apparent lack of compassion is the

symptom of the inherent lack of contentment and freedom. One has to

dig deep through the apparent symptom toward the inherent root cause

to correct the corruption at deeper and deeper layers. THAT TO ME IS

THE SPIRITUALITY. Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's

beliefs is deceit and hypocracy.

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. All the disturbances of

an ocean is superficial … the deeper we dive, the more peaceful it

is … the abyss of all the bliss is inherent in our depths

where " what we think we do " as well as " what we think we are " are

both annihilated without traces.

 

Q: Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there

must be certain duties of a Householder?

 

The notions of sacrifice, forgiving, etc. have a corrupt notion

thanks to our ego. What is meant really to people in common sense is

that, a person forgoes his happiness for others' happiness in these

acts. That means, the ownership is strongly enseeded in such

notions. Typically, sacrifice would mean " Yes that is mine, but I do

not mind giving to the other man so that he can be happy with! " Same

way, forgiving typically means, " Yes the other fellow did something

wrong; but it is OK; let me be magnanimous enough not to react; poor

fellow he does not know what he is doing! " Do you see the strength

of ownership in a subtle camafluage here? That is dangerous for

spirituality.

 

In contentment, there is no room for ideas such as sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. Whatever a content man does looks like sacrifice

as he is not staking for any fruits from the actions that flow out

of him. Also, since whatever the environemnt does to him are lost in

the oblivion of the contentment within and hence cannot invoke any

reaction at all. Therefore, it sounds like he is forgiving

everything that is happening around. To him … there is no sacrifice

and no forgiving. For him, " there is nothing mine to aid others " .

Then how can there be a notion of sacrifice? For him, " nothing can

go wrong as there is nothing wrong in the first place " . Then how can

there be a notion of forgiving? Obviously both notions belong to the

others who harbor their respective egoes!

 

(THANK YOU ! WE SEE NOW THE POINT. ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS

EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is having our eye on other's

welfare and benefit. This is true sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO

SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING, ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG

I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS BENEFICIAL TO US? From Gita Talk

Moderators).

 

For social and personal upliftment, a softer ego is better than the

crude one, I agree. Notions such as sacrifice, forgiving, etc. are

very useful there. In spiritual upliftment, ego is not acceptable in

any form. When the ego itself is annihilated in spiritual

upliftment, all other upliftments are just natural within that. That

is the beauty of spirituality versus " good living " . " Good living "

(Samaja Dharma) requires many tenets and doctrines as it still

remains variant and circumstantial. Spirituality (Sanaatana Dharma),

on the other hand, is eteranl and unique. It transcends all the

variations as well as the variants catergorically. The happiness

(Ananda) is its abode.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

The moment one applies self conscience the question of evaluation of

the task sets in, i.e., result is viewed and assessed whether it is

a " good " or " bad " job to do. The assigned job has to be done without

any consideration to that aspect.Could the doubt be cleared by this

humble person ? Namaste..

 

 

 

 

Grihastha - Household is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity) which a

human being is subjected to. No other tapasya is as subtle, as

fierce and as consuming as is that of a household. One must always ,

therefore, remember this 'grihastha' is a school for one's

emancipation and address the same accordingly.

 

Barin Chatterjee

------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

Look at the family of Lord Shiva ! Lord Shiva sports garland of

skulls and serpent. Lord Shiva's vehicle is bull. Parvatiji on the

contrary is always wearing beautiful ornaments. Parvatiji's vehicle

is Lion. Their son, Lord Ganesha's vehicle is mouse. Their second

son Lord Karthikeya's vehicle is peacock. The serpent and mouse are

by birth fierce enemies. Mouse is the food of serpent. Peacock and

serpent are enemies. Peacock kills serpent. Lion and bull are

enemies. Bull is food for lion. Bitter enemies of each other. All in

one family. But, all live in perfect harmony and comfortably.

 

JUST AS: In Lord Shiva's family all members have different and

contrasting natures, still there is unity in the family.

 

SIMILARLY: All members of any household have different natures, and

different perspectives, and still there can be unity.

 

How? Each member should look at his role and duty only and not at

other's role and duty. One should always strive to give pleasure to

other. " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST " - should be the 'bhava'

(inner expression) of a Grihastha.

 

A grihastha in order to provide pleasure to other family members,

must renounce his own pleasures. That renunciation in fact is true

austerity ! It is law that without renouncing your own pleasure, you

can't provide happiness to others.

 

1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures- if you do these, you have lived

well in the grihashtha.

 

Sadhaks should remember that it is in Grihastha only- each and every

household, no exceptions- that you get practical opportunities to

get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual likings

and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha) and learn fine points of

real " karma yoga " and " bhakti yoga " . Grihashtha Ashram (Household)

is the most important and most beneficial phase of each human being.

One must therefore make best use of it. It is in grihastha, seeds of

of your old age are sown.

 

Above all, in Grihastha it is the utmost duty of a male is to see

God in his parents. If a grihashtha merely obeys his parents , his

life becomes divine. His old age becomes ideal.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

" O descendant of Bharata, at that time Krishna, smiling, in the midst

of both the armies, spoke the following words to the grief-stricken

Arjuna. " B.G. 2:10

 

The 'Smile of Krishna', that is pregnant with, Divine Love,

Compassion, and Wisdom.

 

If one is of a nature to have these qualities in the household,

then peace and love will prevail.

 

Being detached from the Ego Wars, will give one the ability to be of

real value to all within the family sphere, (and those who know you).

 

A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on. (PLEASE ELABORATE ON THE QUALITIES - FROM

GITA TALK MODERATORS)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor)

--------------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally. Doing happens while

doer disappears! At all stages and in all roles duties will be

performed within the guidelines of Dharma as appropriate for the

circumstances one is placed, because one is Loving what has to be

done.

Without feeling such Love, duty feels like forced upon one, and

becomes chores, and boring! With Love, it is not so much as duty,

that one has to do, but rather its a Joy to do it.

So the real issue boils down to " what stops such Love to flow

freely? " Not realizing what I truly AM.

However, we can be guided by wisdom of Gita to ultimately realize

our true nature by performing duties in the best possible ways we

know, with devotion, with Love and without any expectations or

favors. Doing in such a way is its own reward, Yoga itself,

incorporating Yogah Karmashu Kaushalam principle of Gita

So as a householder with family, one takes care of those who are

entrusted to one by God. with an attitude of seeing the family as

gift from God, and serving them is to serve God. That is all!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Grihastha is the feeder to all other ashrams. Saints also get food

from households only. The beauty of grihastha ashram is that " you

can't run away " from your duties. You must do your duties- else

shatterred home ! A sadhu if he confronts with something

unpleasant , he will simply take his kamandal and walk away from the

scene. But a household can not ! That is " austerity " !

 

Rule of Grihastha is simple- Serve, Serve and serve ! Do your duty !

It is a law that service/duty destroys " mamata " . It is also a law

that if mamata is destroyed, ego gets destroyed automatically. You

instantly realise God if mamata (mine) is destroyed. What else ego

consists except " me " ? Where is the " me " when " mine " is

destroyed? " Me " (ego) and " Mine " ( mamata) are the chains which bind

a human being to the world. From this only Raag and Dvesha emerge !

Household is the place where you can easily -simply by serving the

family-destroy them decisively and achieve the very purpose for

which the human life has been given to you !

 

" Nirmamo Nirahankarasya sa shanti madi gachhati " - He who has

become " minenessless " and " egoless " gets permanent Peace and

liberation.

 

As simple as that !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

(Shashikalaji, ANY REFERENCE? CAN ONE NOT BE FREE OF MAMTA (free

of mine-ness)BUT STILL HAVE SENSE OF I-NESS (EGOISM)? GT

MODERATORS)

 

--------------------------

Friends

1.Arjuna was a Gruhastha, a family man and a householder.The

teachings applicable to Arjuna is applicable to

Gruhastha or householder.

2.The difference between Gruhastha and Sannyasi is difference in

objects of desire or attachment. King Janak devoid of attachment

was better and spiritually advanced than many Cannabis.

3.As rightly mentioned by Shri Naga Narayana the only duty of human

beings is to be happy. It is the substance,core and outcome of all

knowledge and efforts.

4.God is also called 'SAT CHIT ANAND' meaning mind/heart filled

with indestructible/permanent joy.Such state is not dependent on

others.

5.Happiness or Joy cannot be at other's cost or expense.

6.Sacrifice and happiness are contrary. Sacrifice will not provide

happiness. (KINDLY EXPLAIN - FROM GITA TALK MODERATOR)

7.According to Gita ,the only duty is to unite with God because that

alone can be source of happiness.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

KAMA--ARTHA--MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

The 4 steps Grahastha need to do.

But the Grahasta has to do and live as per sastras that Bagavan

says. Grahasth has lot of duties on shoulder as Kunthi had. But

Kunthi did well.

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

duty=dharama ?

Family or no family, the only dharma of a man is to unite with God.

1.Accept God is mine and family belongs to God. So serve the family

considering it as a gift given to you by God, with the capacity

given to you by God, with the tools given to you by God.

 

2.Choose any path-gyaan yoga, bhakti yoga or karma yoga. The common

element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme is the most important.

Many hard working people think that they are following karma yoga,

but they take all responsibily on themselves, they worry, they

insist on certain outcome, they trust their own strength, to me they

are not Yogi.

 

yoga-sthah kuru karmani

sangam tyaktva dhananjaya

siddhy-asiddhyoh samo bhutva

samatvam yoga ucyate

 

Establish yr self in Yoga and perform yr duties,abandon all

attachment to success or failure. Such evenness of mind is called

yoga.....

 

Do whatever God wants you to do while reaiming established in yoga.

with Love,

a sadhika

 

Sadhna Karigar

-----------------------

 

 

Hi,

According to scriptures, 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of

gratitude. Human being is bound to do duties at various levels of

his life i.e Saisavam, Balyam, Kaumaram and Vardhakyam. In Kaumaram

normaly one takes up life of a householder or Grihastha. A

householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha. To fully live

the life of a human the operation manual called Gita is available

for reference at any level for us.

 

with love, krishnadasan.

----------------------------

 

Dear Sadhak,

Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined elsewhere. One is not to analyze it, nor aspire for it.

Whatever comes in the way that has to be performed with all

sincerity, without having any interest in the result. One has been

given only the right of execution of the assigned work, neither the

cause of it nor the effect.(Karmanye ebo te adhikara, kodachono

faleshu ma, In Gita-II.47).

Option of becoming a Family man was also assigned which has its own

format. The format has also to be strictly followed, as it comes in

the way, but never one can apply his self conscience about

evaluation of the quality of the work assigned. (karmasanginam

agynang budhivedang na jonoyet bidwan jukto sarba karmani sadacharan

jojayet...Gita III-26)

 

BARIN CHATTERJEE

 

Warm regards

--------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR BARINJI,

Kindly explain what you mean in the last paragraph ... " never one can

apply his self conscience....... " .

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

--------------------------

There is ONLY ONE DUTY for all irrespective of what they do ...

BEING HAPPY!

 

As Shankara says,

 

Jatilo mundee lunchita keshah kashaayaambra bahukrita veshah |

Pashyannapi cha na pashyati mudhah udaranimittam bahukritaveshah ||

 

everyone has to do something or the other. One claims to be a house-

holder having no clue of what is house and what is holding. So is a

Sanyasi equally clueless of what Sanyasa means. One may ask, what is

the basis to doubt of their knowledge upon what they are doing?

Happiness, my dear friend. One who is unhappy does not where he

is ... because he does not know what he is doing ... because he does

not know who he is ...

 

Whether you are happy with what you are doing depends on your

intellect. Whether you are happy with what you are depends on your

wisdom. The question really is ... whether you want to be happy with

what you are doing ... or with what you are.

 

If you want to be happy with what you do ... many questions

follow ... how is my " doing " related to happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary as I see ... then, how much " doing " is

required to maintain the derivative happiness?

 

The " doing " is multitude and variant ... then how many " doings "

should I do to derive effective happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary, multitude and variant, how can I ever say

that the " happiness-es " derived from my various " doings " is really

the happiness?

 

Now the first question looms around stronger ... has the " doing "

anything to do with the happiness at all?!

 

I you want you to be happy with what you are ... then who cares what

you do? Stick with what you think you are.

 

Then comes the question, " Am I the one that I think that I am? "

 

Then, my dear friend, the clock starts ticking for you toward the

real happiness ... because you will find that you are not whatever

you thought as, perpetually. You will discover that all your

thoughts of " what you are " were in fact your " doings " and

never " you " . Then you may also realize that your happiness were

perpetually consumed by these parasites ... your identities ...

your " doings " and your " are-s " . As far as we are cognizant of what

we " are " and what we " do " , we are OK ... we can interrogate them

further.

 

Relating " what we do " and " what we are " to the happiness is an

absurd baseless logic ... it is called " Kaakataaleeya Nyaaya " . A

crow sits on a palm tree. Palm fruit falls down. The observer says,

the palm fruit falls down when a crow sits on the tree. The observer

beleives that there is a relation having not given any attention to

what relation means! Being happy is neither in " what we do " nor

in " what we think we are " . Both are the two faces of the same coing -

IDENTITY, the ego. In fact, if you were ever happy, my dear friend,

it was ONLY WHEN you had kept this coin away in your pocket.

 

Therefore, whatever you are and whatever you do is OK as far you are

happy. Because your happiness indicates the absence of the true

culprit - the ego. If we stick to the happiness as such, we will

then realize that " what is needed is to throw away this fellow, the

ego. Then what I do does not matter ... and what I am does not

matter ... I am happy as I should be! " . In my opinion, that is

spirituality.

 

Therefore, I see only one rule for spirituality irrespective of what

we are and what we do ... being happy ... being happy at the

core ... being nothing but happiness as such.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

---------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR NAGA NARAYANA JI, Yes! Being happy at the core is key ! One

doubt arises is can one be happy at another's expense as a

householder/family man? Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides

being happy, there must be certain duties of a Householder. Kindly

explain .. how one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true

culprit - the ego?

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

---------------------------

Interesting question......

 

It is all about knowing your true self.........while playing the

role whatever it may be........

Start with positive thought then to Happy thought and try to shift

to no thoughts....

 

As a householder even reaching to the stage of keeping happy

thoughts all the time works very fine and

gives great results and then the ultimate may happen too....while

the role of a householder goes on

perfectly, joyously........

 

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

Duties of a Gruastha

 

Very simple I believe. I know I don't write much because I am afraid

I may offend some people as I have my own strong views as well.

 

It is nice that you used the word DUTY. Life is a duty and one has

to understand the difference between duty and Maya. Maya attaches

you to the physical manifestation, duty is done as an entity and not

shrouded in Maya. As a father, mother, brother son, sister etc one

performs duty. Thus Moksha is easier to attain.

 

Happy to call this my 2 cents.

shashi dave

------------------------------

SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES

 

- only dharma of a man is to unite with God

- Accept God is mine and family belongs to God.

- Follow any path, common element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme

- 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of gratitude.

- householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha

- operation manual called Gita is ever available to us

- Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined

- Duty is to be performed with all sincerity, without attachment to

the result

- Being Happy at the core

- Know your true self, all else is a role

- From positive to happy to no thoughts!

- role of a householder goes on perfectly, joyously

- Life is a duty and one has to understand the difference between

duty and Maya

- Householder life is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity)

- Attitude must be - " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST "

- 1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures

- When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally.

- get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual

likings and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha)

- utmost duty of a male is to see God in his parents

- become free of mamta and ahamtaa by serve, serve, serve.

- Free of I-ness and Mine-ness.

- DHARMA - ARTHA - KAMA- MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

 

 

 

 

-------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

 

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Dear Sadhakas, Namakar

 

Please enlighten me, regarding what are the duties of a Gruhastha

(family man, householder), according to Geetaji.

 

....Gee Waman

-------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

One must be careful not to equate everything under the Sun in the

garb of 'Vasudeva Sarvam'. Gita BG 5:18 regarding seeing Brahmin, a

cow, a dog, an elephant or a dog eater equally must not be

misunderstood.

 

Scriptures state that for such people, the very scriptures are a

burden ! The very knowledge is a burden. They have been called in

Scriptures as " Jathar Gardabhas " - Aged Donkeys !

 

Says Swamiji in Gita Prabodhini :

 

Only those with lack of understanding (lack of mental grasp or lack

of intelligence), present as an example the verse BG 5:18 to

advocate 'equal treatment' with all. What is written in verse

is " equal perception " (seeing with an equal eye) not " equal treatment / conduct

/ adoption " ! 'Samdarshinah' has been employed not 'Samvartinah' in the verse !

Our eye should see the Paramatma in them, but we should not start 'treating'

them equally merely because in all He is present ! Our conduct with them has to

have

'discrimination' (viveka)! such as worship of Brahmin and not worship of Dog.

It is about seeing with an equal eye, i.e. beholding Bhagwaan pervading

everywhere, but have different dealings with different beings according to what

is proper based on differences in food, qualities, conduct and caste etc.

 

That is not against the principles of equanimity, or Vasudeva

Sarvam. We can't keep the stone in cupboard and gold ornaments on

road because of Vasudeva Sarvam ! We can't consume poison or filth

because all is one in essence. Our conduct in household life must be

based on the distinctions, but at the same time have an " equal eye "

to them, but not in our attitude/conduct/actions towards the same !

 

We are talking of " what a household should DO " What to do, how to

do - is the question. Your 'conduct', your actions are under ambit

of the question. Your eye or vision is not answer. Answer

is 'discriminate' between a dog and a brahmin when contemplating

worship. Discriminate between a child and an adult in family while

distributing sweets. Discriminate between wife and mother while

contemplating physical enjoyment. To quote there BG 5:18 or talk of

Vasudeva Sarvam - appears to be sheer irrelevance, and likely to be

misleading.

 

Essence of everything and anything is not the same, cannot be the

same. It is fatal to think so ! Let us learn to 'discriminate' !! If

the essence of everything and anything is same then why Scriptures

provide for what should be done and what should not be done? Why

distinctions are made such as 'sattvik' / 'rajasik' / 'tamasic' ?

Yes, Paramatma is there in all three, but should we then become

tamasic ? Drop the 'good qualities' in you us under the garb

of 'spiritual progress' as second phase of 'sadhana' to

convert 'bhoga' into 'sukha' and 'sukha' into 'Ananda' ?

 

Let us talk practical. Let us not conclude so loosely the sacredness

behind Scriptures. Let us focus on proper 'discrimination' !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

------------------------

Hari Om

 

BHOGA ! as I understand from Gita is deriving happiness from

temporary elements ONLY because we perceive them to be permanent.

That is not because of EGO. The assumed affinity of the sentient

(the Self) and identification with the insentient (matter), is the

ignorance which leads to bhog. A bhogi (enjoyer of sense pleasures)

is one who tries to derive pleasure out of world. Ego is not under

illusion. Self due to it's identification with insentient is under

illusion. Ego (inert) is not the one that is enjoying or suffering ! Self due

to it's identification and assumed affinity becomes the enjoyer and sufferer!

 

SELF is always there in ANANDA therefore. Self does not cease to

exist. Please understand what is Ego ! What is essential ego and

what is worldly ego . One must carefully read Gita 5:22 to

understand what is Bhoga !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

--------------------------

I am sorry, I missed couple of serious contentions from some readers

in my previous response. Let me address the same as I can:

 

How can Ego relinquish itself?

 

Let us see. Who needs to seek " freedom " ? One who is already free or

the one who thinks he is constrained? Obviously one who is in misery

need to seek the remedy - happiness. The one who suffers is the

insentient body-mind cluster. Who represents this? I call it ego

(you can call it individual, soul, etc.). The individual needs to

seek the liberation. What is the hurdle? The I-ness (identity) and

the mine-ness (ownership) - the ego in a collective sense. Who can

take any action? The insentient body-mind cluster. Who thinks that

he acts? The ego. Therefore, who can take an initiative to remove

the hurdle for attaining liberation? The ego. Again what is the

hurdle? The ego. Then, what is the obvious solution?? The ego

removing itself. That is called Sharanaagati or Surrender. It is the

so-called inert body-mind cluster that need to surrender and that

can surrender. The sentient neither needs to surrender nor it can.

The surrender means to me the cognizant acceptance from the ego of

the futility of its presence as well as its ownership on anything

and everything it knows. If it relinquishes its identity (I-ness)

and ownership (mine-ness), it is THAT as anything else is.

 

How can an inert thing like TRUE FREEDOM " itself " empower itself to

execute on its own ........?

 

The sentient (Purusha or Vaasudeva) is everything - that is the

hypotysis to start with. The insentient (Prakriti or body-mind

cluster) alone is involved in incessant purutrbations where as the

sentient remains unpurturbed is the corollary. The hypothesis and

the corrolary do not seem to jive well - the first says that the

first is everything, the other tries to establish a distinct

dominion for the second. What is making this fission in the

integrity of one's presence? Again the ego. If the hypothesis is

correct, ego also should be THAT only. How come it does not feel

that way? The corollary it has concocted in its perception. Being

spell-bound by its own web, the ego insists for separation wherever

it creeps in - be it actions, thoughts or experiences. It can

understand only one thing - separation or plurality! Its identity

whithers away if the fragmentation of the images it processes falls

apart. It looses its locus in the absence of I-ness and I-ness

looses its integrity in the absence of mine-ness … therefore, the

ego hangs on to the worldly relations and possessions desperately.

That is its ignorance - notion that its existence is dependent on

its identities and possessions. How can it " surrender " if this

continues? Only by empowering itself with the TRUE KNOWLEDGE that it

is what it is irrespective of identities and ownerships. Nobody else

can releive it from its own ignorance. It alone can help itself by

questioning the validity of its identities and possessions.

 

Uddhareduddharaatmaanam naatmaanamavasaadayet |

Aatmaiva hyaatmano bandhuh aatmaiva ripuraatmanah ||

 

The individual is its own enemy. Also, the only well-wisher it can

ever have is itself. (By nurturing the second aspect), it should not

let itself down into the miseries, but should empower itself to help

itself. When the all the relativities - identies and ownerships -

are removed, it remains in its pure essence - The Self, The

Absolute. Anything else also IS THAT only in its pure essence.

Attaining the purity by volition is referred here as " self-

empowerment " .

 

There are other ways to mend this ego - saama (by convincing), daana

(by offering good effects), bheda (by revealing the threats) and

danda (by pouring the dire consequences) - based on circumstantial

relativity. But, I personally consider all of them to be tentative

and their effect to be partial. Self awareness of The Reality is the

most fool-proof way to let ego relinquish itself completely – that

alone is worthy of being referred to as Tyaga, Renunciation.

 

Pratapji's reference to Vidyaranya Bharati's " Brahmanande

Vishayananda " is is very relevant … I recommend the fellow sadhaks

to study that seriously. To appreciate the Absolute Bliss in our

lives however we live is the clue for the Jeevanmukti whether we are

house-holders or anything else. Please study Vidyanaranya

Bharati's " Jeevanmukti Viveka " as well. Don't just read … please

study.

 

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

-----------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Clarification needed... We think it is terminology related

confusion... per our understanding, Ego is inert, and therefore not

the sufferer. " Atma " is " Self, Soul " and " Ahamkaar " is " Egoism " .

Sharanagati is at the " Swayam " / " Self " level, not at " Ego " level,

per our understanding. It is surrendering ourself !! Surrender to

Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness) in such a manner that only

Paramatma (Consciousness) remains. It could be vocabulory /

terminology that is in question.

 

Nagaji and all Sadhaks we kindly request BREVITY. It is easy for a

reader to get lost in words and lengthy explanations, with added

limitations of the mind to grasp. Thank you sincerely,

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

 

Dear Fellow Sadhakas!

 

ONE SINCERE REQUEST TO ALL …

 

So far, my clarifications have remained figments of my own

imaginations as I have never got to understand the true reasons for

the disagreements so far. Please make sure to evaluate and establish

why you disagree next time so that I will get an opportunity to

learn my ignorance thereupon; all sadhakas have that right upon

me. Keeping The Truth, nothing but The Truth, as the

ONLY basis in our criticism makes the debate more educational.

 

Deep Respects.

Naga Narayana

-------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Let us try stating facts / scriptures as we understand them without

being critical of other sadhaks, as our initial approach to

understanding the Truth. Let us know if you propose another

method. Sincerely, Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-------------------------

Radhey Radhey

 

Hmmh...!! So are we saying that .... once " me " is forgotten, all

become divine? It is still unclear the difference between Bhoga and

Sukha, please clarify?

 

Radhey Radhey

Nisha Chatterji

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Dear Rameshji,

 

Thank you very much by bringing out " Householder's immediate duty is

to protect the rights of those who happen to be close to the

individual as a result of family relationship " . As Swamiji Maharaj

points out in Sadhak Sanjivini that our duty is simply to perform

our duty, in a lovingly manner as an offering to God and our duty is

not to make a judgment about what is the duty of others and how well

they are performing it. An exception to this of course is our duty

towards our children, they have to be guided lovingly about their

duty. The best we can do is to set a good example -

(Ref: Gita 3-21)

yad-yad acharati shreshas, tad-tad eve'taro janah

sa yat pramnam kurute, lokas tad anuvartate

 

" For whatever a great man does is followed by others; people go by

the example he sets up "

 

Many times, the common family feud in today's life style happens to

be - demanding the RIGHTS but NOT DOING one's own individual duty.

The " Bagvaan " was a good Hindi movie illustrating this point.

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Humble pranams,

Madan Kaura

---------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Coming specifically again to the subject, I have no doubt that as

Respected Rameshji said- each one of us should focus only on " What

is my duty " . We must never look at what is other family member's

duty. It is a law that your duty is other's right. Karma Yoga

essentially requires you to perform your duties (meaning protect

other family members' rights) BUT renounce your rights (meaning

ignore other family members' duties towards you)

 

Swamiji vehemently advocated this while talking about a happy

gruhustha. This single trait is good enough to make us peaceful and

happy. A gruhustha indeed suffers mostly because of lack of this

trait/skill in him. Sadhak Narinder Bhandariji has indeed brought

out this in his own beautiful, lyrical way. Thanks

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-----------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I am glad to read Naga Narayanji's response in terms of

clarification of his last post which raised issues and questions on

some of our sadhak family. I was waiting for his own response first.

I understood his post in the spirit he conveyed the first time as

did the moderators. I hope his subsequent explanations clarifies

what he really meant.

 

In my words, I would put it like this.

 

The Absolute Beingness which is at the same time Consciousness

Supreme, IS Limitless, Non-Dual, Complete in Itself, and IS Bliss

Itself. It cannot be otherwise as it is its nature, and is the ONLY

REALITY of all our experiences not matter what types of experiences.

When we talk of Bhogas, and Sukhas, we are talking from Ego's point

of view, trying to fufill through the perceived/conceived objects of

the world, forgetting the Perceiver/Conceiver being Consciousness

itself, the very reason they are experienced. All objects thus

perceived are limited, and give only limited bhogas/sukhas, the

absence of which give pains.

However, even in temporary sense pleasures or bhogas/sukhas, the

happiness felt is only due to Consciousness (being devoid of sense

of " me " in those moments), essential condition, so to speak. There

is a chapter in Panchdashi(Prakarana Grantha) by Swami Vidyaranyaji,

ch 15, " Brahmanande Vishayananda " , The Bliss of objects, where the

messge is conveyed that there is an intrinsic relationship between

worldly pleasures and Divine Happiness, the later being the original

and the former its distortion due to artificial limitations. The

implications of this is that if one is intelligent enough to

recognize this connection, the world of objects becomes Divine, and

would not appear as objects of selfish enjoyments implied in

Sukhas/Bhogas.

Besides, temporary pleasures derived from Alcohol or other such

entertainments requiring senses/body/mind have adverse effect on

physical and mental health. Thus Viveka is required. But what could

be better than to be able to see Divinity even in mundane things

with such understanading? Besides where else can you see God if not

in the world itself?

" me " can see only objects, its absence sees those very objects as

God.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Shri Krishna

Our duty is only that which, for those who are close to us, or

otherwise, doing for them according to our capability/ability, what

ever their rights are on us as per the scriptures. Just like the

father's duty is to make his children qualified, capable and worthy.

And whatever are the rights of the child, those become the duty of

the father. When everyone fulfills their duties, then everyone's

rights are automatically protected, and it will be the creation of a

wonderful society. Regarding duties, whatever standards are

established and prescribed in the scriptures, that alone must be

done. These are the same sentiments that have been expressed by

words of Saints - Swami Shri Sharananandji Maharaj and also in Swami

Maharaj's (Swami Ramsukhdasji's) Sadhak Sanjeevani.

 

Duty is that alone in which there is benefit / gain / well-being of

the other. It is never a duty to do what is harmful to others. To

do what is harmful or leading to someone's downfall can never be our

duty.

 

Keeping these words in mind then in whatever be your stage in life,

the varna you are in, all those that are around you will remain ever

happy with you.

 

Your servant, Ramesh (Sadhak Ramesh)

 

IN HINDI

 

Hamare liye Kartvya vahi hai,jo hamare nikatvarti hai,dur ke

hai..unka yathayogya,shastra anukul jo adhikar hai,unko pura

karna.jaise ki pati ka kartavya hai ki balako ko yogya banaye aur jo

pita ka kartavya hai,vahi balak ka adhikar hai.sab apane apane

kartavya ka palan karenge to sabke adhikar ki raksha ho jayegi aur

sunder samaj ka nirman hoga.Kartavya ke bare me praman shastra ki jo

agya hai vahi karna hai.aisa santvani me swami shre Sharnanadji

Maharaj Aur swamiji Maharaj ke bhi Sadhak Sanjeevni me yahi bhav

hai.Kartavya vahi hota hai ,jisase dusare ka hit ho,bhala ho.kabhi

dusare ka ahit,bura karna kartavya nahi ho sakta hai.yeh bate dhyan

me rakhate huye aap chahe koi bhi ashram ,varn me ho ...palan karo

to sada aap aur aapke nikatvarti samaj aanand me rahega.

 

Aapka Dass, Ramesh (Sadhak Ramesh)

 

----------------------

Dear sadaks,

Gruham is house- Astha the person who is in charge of house and its

inmates, providing them shelter, food, and most importantly teaching

his dependants Dharma sastras, Puranas Etc. The householder himself

must be well learnt to guide his family in right way. Such a person

should live purely without attachments, dutybound acting with

doership surrendered to God mentally and physically. Once he marries

his children away, he should opt for Vanaprastam. He is Karma Yogi

as Bagavan said and as said by Vyasji

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Brother Mike Keenor indeed referred to the end result of all yogas

particularly for a household- entire world as a family. That is the

nectar flowing from a sadhak always speaking from his soul. Sadhak

Pratapji and Shashikalajee have already built upon the same ,

beautifully, in their last messages, hence I have very little to

offer.

 

But I must say that this is how all yogas end their journeys call

it , " sarvabhoot hite rata " (BG 12:4) for Jnana Yogis or " Vasudevah

Sarvam " (BG 7:19) for a Bhakti Yogi, what to say of a Household

(Karma Yogi) where entire world is a family for him. SARVA

BANDHUTVAM (Brotherhood of All ).

 

The consideration that " this one is a kinsman and this one is not "

is of persons who have mean mind. But for persons possessing

a 'noble' behaviour, the intellect is quite free from

coverings/restraints- and that is achieved by resolution : There is

no place where I am not; there is nothing which is not mine. All

classes are indeed our kinsmen. None whatever of these beings are

very much unconnected to us.

 

Yes Mike ! How indeed at the end of road and at the door steps of

the 'Beloved', there can be that understanding, 'this is kinsman and

this is a stranger ', of the SELF who is existing in oneness and is

all pervading ?

 

Yes, but the bottle must also break first, as Shashikalajee told so

that first " mineness " with 'others' dissolves fully and then emerges

out of that renunciation(service/sacrifice) Peace and from peace

comes out again the mineness with the all pervading 'Divine' ! MERE

TO GIRDHAR GOPAL !! (Only God is Mine) There is no " doosara " (other)

thereafter. Service has destroyed the mineness with the 'other' .

There is no SARVAM now ! There is ONLY VASUDEVA !! There is

no " doosara na koi " , there is ONLY , " MERE TO GIRDHAR GOPAL " !!

 

Amen, Brother !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------------

 

I apologize for the lapse in communication of the message in an

" appealing way " raising anger in some. Apparently, we are thinking in

two different languages! But, my request is, PLEASE DO NOT THROW THE

STONES EVERYWHERE IN YOUR ANGER. The moderators as well as the forum

has nothing to do with it. It is me who has caused ... and hence, aim

the stones at the cause. If there is any blame, that is mine. Pl. do

not give credit of that to anybody else :).

 

Somebody has advised me to use the word " peace " rather than

" happiness " . Tathaastu. Amen. I will. Any other word is also fine ...

I have no problem.

 

Some felt that Bhoga, Sukha, Ananda etc are treated the same in the

message. No! All referring to one's attitude behind one's action can

never be the same. Let me re-iterate, the perceptions are not the

same, but the essence is. In fact, the essence of anything and

everything is the same. Vaasudevah Sarvam.

 

Some objections that the message had no relevance to house-holder ...

Sorry for assuming that it was implicit ...

 

Somehow some have extracted a notion that " taking drugs is OK " from

the message! I am baffled as well as apolegitic for such grossly

unintended meaning being grasped :(. What was intended was that " even

respectful activities such as Bhajan, meditation, and even Samadhi

could be practiced as Bhoga if we believe these are responsible for

the the ever-present absolute ... let us be alert in our practices.

As a house-holder one need to be extra-cautious due to the

expectations from the

family and society " :

 

Na karmanaam anaarambhaan naishkarmyam purusho'shnute |

Na cha sanyasanaadeva siddhim samadhigacchhati ||

 

We can talk on this for years and centuries and millineums ... and

yet the communication will falter as we insist for familiarity in the

expressions ... If you disagree, feel free. Being angry ... think

about it.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

All seem to strongly agree that " Ananda " or " Peace " is Absolute ...

and yet strongly insist that many things should be excluded from

That! That baffles me. Ananda (not the word, but the essence

referred to) IS

Absolutely Absolute - Vasudevah Sarvam. THAT is everything being all-

inclusive.

Then it has to be any word as such. It has to be any thing as such.

I cannot

fathom how anything in this world can be excluded from the happiness

that we are

referring to! Your agreement is also THAT. Your disagreement as

well. Your anger

as well!

 

Vidyaa-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi hastini |

Shuni chaiva shvapaake cha ... aanando'nanda eva hi ||

 

Everything is, in fact, entitled for the happiness equally - be that

a great scholar, a great saint, a great truth seeker, an animal such

as cow or

elephant or a dog, or be that a dog eater ... happiness is

happiness as such. I cannot claim any right on the happiness " more "

irrespective of what I do or think. I know that I am entitled for the

happiness as anything else in this world is. There cannot be anything

in this world other than THAT, The Truth which is often referred to

by various words such as happiness, peace, absolute, truth, bliss,

etc. I

consider it to be the greatest ignorance if I consider any specific

word to be

singularly adequate to mean THAT.

 

The words are NOT there to mean The Absolute ... but to mean what we

perceive. After all, any word is nothing but a figment of our

cognition only! Therefore, we shall revisit the words Bhoga, Sukha

and Ananda again. For communication sake, following is what they

represent for me:

 

Bhoga: The notion of happiness is projected on to a perceived

entity - substance, action, perception or experience. Even if one

attains happiness through Samadhi, if the beleif is that the

happiness is established in Samadhi, I consider that notion or

attitude as Bhoga only. The objects of body, mind and desire

dominate the belief here.

THIS IS THE WORST STATE OF ONE'S ATTITUDE. I am baffled how anybody

could get a contrary meaning out of it?!

 

Sukha: The notion of happiness claimed by an individual. Even if it

is claimed by a saint, my considerations remain the same. On positive

side, it promotes individual independence while it can also promote

pride on its negative side. The subject dominates the belief here.

Again it is a limited state as one's perception dominates. I am again

confused how people could mix-up what was expressed from two distinct

angles - one from individual attitude and another from transcendental

perception.

 

Ananda: Just being happy where happiness remains just happiness. As a

matter of fact, any pure objective presence where every object is

treated as itself and the subject as itself without any imposed

qualities is also THAT only. No subject, no object, no beliefs ...

but just THAT remains. Though the word is conceived in one's

cognition, what is meant her is " transcendental " . That is The

Absolute presence of reference here. Therefore, everything is Ananda

only from transcendental perception.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

I have difficulty in understanding how The Absolute can be viewed

with any filter - be it a word, or a concept or a theory or objects

or even the whole universe. THAT cannot be trapped in anything ...

yet, THAT is everything as such. In other words, if we look at

everything objectively without any trace of subjective notions, we

are always happy because we are THAT. THAT IS THE VALUE FOR THE

HOUSEHOLDER, OR AS A MATTER FACT, FOR ANYONE ELSE AS SUCH.

 

Karma brahmodbhavam viddhi brahmakshara samudbhavam |

Tasmaat sarvagatam brahma nityam yagnye pratishthitam ||

 

Everything (though the actions are in context here) " is " THAT and yet

none can " get " or " have " THAT. The value of the appreciation of our

ignorance in our appreciation of life - distinction between Bhoga,

Sukha and Ananda in our perception - is of paramount importance to

realize the unity beneath everything (including the notions of

pleasures, happiness, bliss, etc.) in our natural presence (Sahaja

Sthiti). If one (including a house-holder) involves in the daily

activities naturally, The Bliss is revealed in the very presence

irrespectively.

 

THE PURPOT IS, ALL VARIATIONS REMAIN WITHIN THE IMAGINATIONS

(NOTIONS,

EMOTIONS, RELATIONS) OF THE PERCEIVER (THE EGO) ... NOT IN THE MERE

PRESENCE OF ANYTHING (INCLUDING THE EGO).

 

Therefore, nobody need to worry whether they are in right

circumstances for receiving the abundance of happiness (be it a

house-holder or anybody else). If we let ourselves " be " what we are

while letting everything else as they " are " we are always happy. If

we try " get " or " have " anything including our own identities, we are

doomed to suffer. Nobody has strength to " get " or " have " happiness -

not even gods let alone great saints and scholars. Everybody is

entitled to " be " happy as they are no matter who it is ... be a dog

or a dog eater ... does not matter.

 

RELEVANCE: DUTY FOR A HOUSE-HOLDER (FOR EVERYONE ELSE AS WELL) IS TO

NURTURE OBJECTIVITY IN LIFE. RESPECT EVERYTHING AS THAT.

 

Happiness IS just happiness ... Truth IS just truth ... anything IS

just anything ... no matter how we attempt to look at things around.

The beleif that what we see is completely representative of what is

seen is THE IGNORANCE that is the cause of all miseries. As a

house-holder (let me make this explicit as some have difficulty in

potential irrelevance of the statements here), as well as anybody

else, the ONE AND ONLY FOOL-PROOF way to be happy is to let ourselves

be involved in the actions presented to us naturally showing no trace

of hesitance.

 

Karma brahmodbhavam viddhi ... no matter what ...

 

RELEVANCE: DUTY FOR A HOUSE-HOLDER (FOR EVERYONE ELSE AS WELL) IS TO

RESIST DEVELOPING NOTIONS ON ANYTHING FUELING THE INHERENT TENDENCIES

OF LIKES AND DISLIKES.

 

Jitaatmanah prashaantasya paramaatmaa samaahitah |

Sheetoshnasukhaduhkheshu tathaa maanaavamaanayoh ||

 

Again, we can talk on this for years and centuries and milleniums ...

and yet the communication will falter as we insist for familiarity in

the expressions ... If you disagree, feel free. Being angry ... think

about it.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Just a few 'principles/laws' from Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj . The

Question of these ever failing does not arise :

 

1 Service destroys Mamata (mineness)

 

2 When you provide happiness to others , your own desire for

enjoyment reduces. Desire is gross form of Ego !

 

3 You can't renounce what belongs to you. You can only renounce that

which is continuousy renouncing you.

 

4 Either, When you serve, just don't consider the servicee to be

yours ! Alnernately, serve those who you don't consider to be

me/mine. Result is same.

 

5 Bhog and Sangrah - Consumption and Accumulation of worldly things-

is not allowing you to realise God !

 

6 A grihastha renounces 'enjoyership' (fruits of actions) first. He

acts with 'doership' in him. Renunciation of fruits of action

destroys effortlessly the 'doership' as a law ! In case of Jnana

Yoga, sadhak first renounces 'doership' ! Renunciation of 'doership'

destroys effortlessly 'enjoyership' as a law ! The world is nothing

except " doing " and " enjoying/suffering " !!

 

7 World is not the place at all for pleasures or pains. For

pleasures (bhog) , go to heaven. For pains go to hell. For mixed, be

bird/animal/tree etc But once you are human, rise above them.

 

8 When you renounce, however/with whatever attitude, peace will

generate in you ! Ego takes a beating with every disconnection.

 

9 Discrimination (Viveka) is God given advisor to you. Respect it.

 

A grihastha (householder) whose primary sadhana comprises

of 'doing' , should not worry excessively about 'doership' or the

false notion that it fuels ego ! No- such notions are 'evils in the

garb of good' !! He should renounce 'enjoyership' of results.

Doership goes later on automatically/effortlessly by operation of

Divine Laws.

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

-------------------------

 

Gruhastha means a householder. In other words a married man. The

head of the household has a duty to see to the well being of his

family and to do everything he can to see that they are looked after

well. Afterwards he has a duty towards society especially those who

suffer due to poverty or ill health. If he serves them then he is

serving God as well as because they are also God's creations.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

---------------------------

.. " When the self is known……. All is known , " This is the highest

understanding to be imbibed by a sadhaka.

 

2.Effort for Self realization, thus, is the highest sadhana .

 

3.If the self is realized ……….. all the questions get answered from

within oneself . The duties of a Pativrata, the duties of a

Householder ( Pati), the duties towards each amongst the various

members of the family ………. happen to get understood , and expressed

in action, spontaneously , by the knowers of truth…… by the self

realized .

 

But …………………..

 

4.Self realization is not easy. It does not even occur to most

people, as the primary purpose of Life. So, in the family, it will

seldom be that even one member would be self realized ……… All would

be what they are ……….. egos evolving at their own pace and according

to their own choices …………. And, in this age of Kaliyuga …………… there

is naught but the ego in manifestation everywhere ……

 

And…………..

 

5.The family is the smallest unit of society. The values that the

society wishes to be practised within itself , have to begin as

practise within the Family. The values practised within the family

will automatically get practised in the society.

 

6.The family and Society are deeply linked. If the Family

practises Dharma, the society will be a Dharmic society. If the

society encourages Dharma, and is Dharmic, the family too will have

a tendency to live the life of Dharma .

 

7.Keeping the above in view, for harmonious living , wherein the

highest values get lived and practised in action, the Rishis and

Munis , the realized ones, laid down the Principles of Dharma( the

Sanatana Dharma ) as also the duties to be practised by the various

members of the family, beginning with the Pativrata Dharma and the

Patnivrata Dharma, Vrata means ............... self-imposed

discipline for the sake of self evolution. Discipline is defined as

self-imposed sacrifice of ego for the larger Good of the greater

number . Discipline is the sacrifice , in which all benefit and

achieve their individual goals .

 

8.Now, the Family comprises of the pati, the patni, the progeny.

 

It would not need much intelligence to logically arrive at the

conclusion that harmony we seek within our own selves must begin as

expression within the family; and, it can only be so, if all the

members know their duties and responsibilities towards each other,

and these duties should occur from within each member so as to be

expressed in action spontaneously, easily and lovingly .

 

But, as we said earlier ……… that is only possible , if every member

is self realized . From this , it becomes easy to arrive at the

conclusion that the first duty of each member is self -

realisation.

 

9.But, the family comprises of husband , wife and children. And, the

children would only follow what their parents do. THUS, both husband

and wife must have their first duty as the realisation of the

self .

 

Ha !

 

Now comes the rub . Where do things go wrong ? Things go wrong,

because the husband focuses only on what duties the wife should be

performing . The wife focuses only on what she should get out of the

husband , what his duties are !...... No-one focuses on Duty as

kartavaya ( One's own duty lovingly performed so as to please God

and thus move into self realization ) And, thus we find around us

today, turmoil in every home, discord in every home, with husband

and wife constantly at each others throats, and children rebelling

and even abusing their parents .

 

10. The way to self –realisation is given in various Upanishads ,

granthas, puranas, smritis, bhagvatam, and so on. Bhagvada Geetha is

the quintiscence of all the Upanishads .

 

11.It would be logical to say …. That a wise sadhaka would try to

walk the shortest, obstacle-less path to self-realization.

 

12.And for the true Sadhaka, there are three very valuable

scriptures ( amongst scores more ), which show the way to self

realization. These are the Bhagvada Geetha , the Ashtang Yoga sutras

of Patanjali, and the Vivekachudamani by Shankra. All the three are

complete and competent in themselves to lead the sadhaka to the

ultimate fulfillment . At the same time …. they compliment each

other , and are not exclusive of the other. But, it is best for the

sadhaka to stick to anyone of them for walking the Path

assiduousally , under the guidance of a self-realised Guru , if

possible .The importance of a Guru can never be over-emphasised .

 

Ah, friends, if we want to bring joy, happiness and true progress

within the society, it will have to be by clearly understanding

that practice of the discipline for self realization will have to be

by defining the duties of the husband and wife clearly towards each

other , and through the understanding that these duties are self-

imposed for the evolution of the self so as to realize God in

this very lifetime.

 

All creativity in Nature is the outcome of two principles, the male

principle and the female principle. These principles govern even

the insentient creation. But, when the evolution brings us to

sentience , the intelligence given to human beings by God or

Existence was to to reach the pinnacle of achievement ……. God

realization ……… and society living as Gods . This is Dharma. The

principal players in this are a man and woman , and the unit is the

family. Discipline will have to begin with these two players . The

discipline will have to be practiced by the wife and the husband for

the sake of their own self . The Bhagvada Geetha is the guide to

discipline , the practice of the thirty attributes given in

Chapter 13, irrespective of whether one is the wife , or a husband.

BUT, we will also have to devise the individual Dharma of the

husband and wife toward each other , This the ancient rishis and

munis did ……. But today, the wife and the husband both flout it ,

and fight regarding its veracity. The husband of today does not

understand that he is responsible to respect the woman and, the wife

of today refuses to set an example to her children in love sacrifice

and obedience, even though both carry on reciting the ancient

mantras " matri devo bhava, pitri devo bhava, acharya devo bhave,

atithi devobhava "

 

Every wife and mother is enchanted by the mantra ` matri-devo

bhava'………… but is reluctant to be a great mother .

 

Every father would like to be worshipped in accordance with the

Mantra ` pitri-devo-bhava'……….. but may not wish treat his parents

worshipfully.

 

And what about the mantra , we used to hear a few decades ago …………'

pati devo bhava `………. We hear of it no more …………..

 

Nobody is to be blamed ………….. neither man , nor woman ………… it is

the march of time ……….

 

Everyone shouts at the other to practice the same values , which one

oneself refuses to practice.

 

The family, the vey womb of Dharma is breaking up if not already

broken. But there is still the great Hope for revival. Out of the

awareness of the evil of Adharma all around ,Dharma now is becoming

an individual quest. Perhaps, one day again, soon, out of this

individual self-realisation, the family will , once again, come

together ; but, it will then again be a Dharmic wife and a Dharmic

husband, and their progeny worshipping their parents …….. so that

all may fulfill the purpose of Life , God- Realisation.

 

A Golden age of Dharma may yet come again…………. may be not in our

lifetime, maybe not even in this yuga( for, when this happens, we

would not be able to call it kaliyuga , it will become

Satyuga ,,,,,,,,,,, ) ………….. God only knows .All is His Will. The

movement of Time and Space, is itself God's Will.

 

Ah, dear sadhakas, who so do choose…………… let us continue with our

sadhna .

 

Ah, where were we …? Bhagvada Geetha ……….. chapter ….. shaloka ….. ?

 

AUM narinder bhandari

-------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Narinderji, Please kindly be concise in future postings. Thank

you, From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

 

--------------------------

Dear Sadak Sri Madan Kaura,

I very happily accept your correction. What is true is to be

corrected is our Dharma. It is not Kunthi but Droupati who forgave.

Such quality comes from the persons with whom one is associated.

Droupati association with Sri Krishna.

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Grihastha (Household) is a place where by serving 'others' a person

must strive to get freedom from the ocean of birth and death. When

you 'serve' invariably your desire (gross form of ego) takes a hit.

Grihasthas therefore MUST use 'viveka'- discrimination frequently in

day to day life.

 

Trees also live; and so do animals and birds. He alone lives (in

essence) whose mind is alive by reflection. One must in Grihastha

(household) inculcate 'good qualities' in him. Human life itself and

in that too the ashram of 'grihastha' provides you opportunity of

being 'noble' . One must never drop 'nobleness' in him. NEVER !

Human life is given to renounce Bhog/sukha/happiness not to seek it.

Real happiness lies in sacrifice/renunciation. Peace emerges out of

renunciation( BG 12:12 ) . Trust Scriptures only, as Madanji Kaura

said.

 

Those who shun nobleness or contemplate dropping them are aged asses-

carrying burdens only. The scriptures is a burden for one without

discrimination; knowledge is a burden for the passionate(bhogi) ;

mind is a burden for one WITHOUT PEACE,( for one who does not

renounce or sacrifice worldly pleasures/possessions in favour of

family members/ others/world at large) and the body is a burden for

one who does not know SELF or tries to erase/forget his true

identity. For such people, without discrimination, the mind runs in

vain from here and from there perplexed, just as a dog from distance

to a greater distance in a village.

 

In Grihastha (household) therefore one has excellent opportunity of

deriving PEACE by merely renunciation of his own happiness and

possessions in favour of family members/ world at large.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

For every sadhak " household " is a challenge. Here he has to " do " !

How to be a " great doer " ? Read Scriptures to know that, as

suggested by Sadhak Madanji Kaura !

 

He is called a great 'grihashtha' (householder):-

 

1 Who performs duties prescribed by the scriptures according to

circumstances, with a mind free from doubt or fear.

 

2 Who assumes indifferently, love and hate, pleasure and pain,

likeable or unlikeable works, and fruit/reward and its absence

 

3 Who acts with his excitement/anxiety gone, who is possessed of

silence, free from egotism, stainless and is one who has given up

jeolousy.

 

4 Whose mind is mind is not stained by bad or improper doubt in

considerations of right and wrong in good and bad actions

 

5 Who neither regrets nor rises in his mood due to a pure and even

mind and is free from excitement and joy.

 

6 Who undertaking action and non-action and doership, remaining

indifferent , becomes exceedingly even internally.

 

7 Who , passing through weal and woe, does not indeed give up his

equanimity, and is calm by his very nature

 

8 Whose mind is quite even in circumstances of birth, existence,

death and among objects having rise and fall.

 

9 WHO SERVES, SERVES and SERVES to those people whom he

considers " mine " with those things which he considers to be " mine " -

thus relinquishes what is " mine " and thereby kills the very shelter

of " mineness " - the ME or I-ness !!

 

There is no doubt that all creatures, of whatever nature, strive

only for happiness. So does a 'householder'. Here

the 'discrimination' (viveka) plays vital role. He must distinguish

between Bhoga/happiness and Ananda/Bliss. Scriptures distinguish

categorically. Why? Because it is vital to do ! We must understand

the difference between temporary and permanent, real and unreal,

relative and absolute. When Sadhaks do so, with the help of Viveka,

then surely ugliness will be seen by them among the lovely; non

being on top of being; impermanence will be observed among the

permanence, and unreality among the seemingly real objects.

 

Bhogas ( seemingly real but actually unreal- objects of pleasure and

enjoyment of objects of sense) are only the expanded hoods of,

Kaliya Naga (SERPENT) referred in Scriptures (Shreemad Bhagavatam)

during description of Shree Krishna Leela . They just sting when

touched a little.

 

Which wise men and more particularly which SADHAK should take

delight in those Bhogas, under disguise of Ananda, which bhogas are

likes the shades of umbrellas in the form of exhanded hoods of

Nagas - serpents ? No one should, in fact. Never a grihastha , never

a sadhak, never a human being. NEVER !

 

And THUS mineness gets destroyed, and THUS as suggested by Brother

Mike entire world becomes a large family. You (water) can perceive

ocean only when you (it) come (s) out of small water pot !! Hence

serve first those who you consider " me/mine " . That breaks the

bottle !!

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Ram Ram

 

Last night I was hearing SATSANG of MAHARAJ JI of the day of Since

April-1991, that time there is a bright way in my mind that is WHAT

IS GEETA? MEANING OF GEETA? please rectify my mistake about above

question.

 

If there is a single mistake or wrong question then please " MUJE

BHOLA JAAN KE MAAF KAR DENA " " Consider me to be ignorant / innocent

and Forgive

me " according to MAHARAJ JI ( 18 April-

1991's satsang)

 

 

Jag Mohan

--------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

JAGAT BHAR KI ROSHNI KE LIYE, KARODO KI JINDAGI KE LIYE ..... SOORAJ

RE JALATE RAHNA !!

 

For spreading light in the dark universe, giving life to all , O

Sun .... Kindly keep burning !!

 

Words can never express our gratitude to all sadhaks in this forum.

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Tyaag / Bhog / Tapasya / Grihastha / Sin / Virtue !!

 

With permission of this Divine Forum Moderators , I would like to

narrate 'real life' description of aforesaid terms. Read it with

reference to 'Kaliyuga' trends and BG 18:32. Slightly long , but I

hope it will serve many : I got married very early and my Hubby then

was only 17 and me 15. He is very sharp but once we saw a movie

called 'Chitralekha'. There was one ' Kalyugi' song in that -

absolutely appeared even to the best of minds as Bhajan. My

hubby 'acted' on that temporarily and after paying penalty and upon

coming in touch with Swamiji , in early 80s , he realised grave

error. That is what Swamiji called 'evil in the garb of good' .

Reproducing that 'bhajan' to Sadhaks so that they may never get

enticed to the juiciness of the same:

 

SANSAAR SE BHAGE PHIRATE HO BHAGWAAN KO TUM KYAA PAOGE ! IS JANAM KO

BHI APNA NA SAKE, US JANAM MAIN BHI PACHHTAOGE !!

 

You are running away from the world, how will you get God? You are

not able to enjoy this world properly, you will repent up there

(after death) also.

 

YEH BHOG BHI EK TAPASYA HAI, TUM TYAAG KE MARE KYAA JANO! APMAAN

RACHIYATA KA HOGA, RACHNA KO AGAR THUKRAOGE !!

 

This 'bhog' (consumption of worldly pleasures- say alcohol) is also

an austerity. You are not able to appreciate it because of pre

conceived notion of " renunciation/sacrifice " . You shall be

insulting the Creator , if you reject/renounce His creation !!

 

HAM KAHATE HAIN YEH JAG APNA HAI, TUM KAHATE HO JHOOTHA SAPANA HAI !

HAM JANAM BITAA KAR JAYENGE, TUM JANAM GAVAA KAR JAOGE!!

 

I say that this world is " mine " . You say that this world is false

and dream. I will win and live in this world and then die, you will

lose in this world and then die.

 

YEH PAAP HAI KYAA YEH PUNYA HAI KYAA, REETO PAR DHARAM KI MOHARE

HAIN ! HAR YUG MAIN BADALATE DHARMO KO KAISE ADARSH BANAAOGE !!

 

What is " paap " (sin) ? What is " punya " ( virtue). They are only

rituals on which there is a stamp of 'dharma'. How can you idolise

that 'dharma' which changes in every 'yuga' (changes with time) ?

 

Hubby carried these lines to his heart. Once he asked Swamiji- Sir

everything has been made by God, why not consume it? Do we not

insult Creator if we reject creation? The Great Swamiji replied- God

has made poison also, stool also, will you eat it? He became

speechless !! That changed him ! Today he says each and every line

of this song is wrong !

 

That is how evil comes in the garb of good, Divine Sadhaks in this

Kaliyuga !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

Hari Om

 

As per my experience a Karma Yogi sheds his ego automatically by

serving others so much so that in the end 'server', 'servicee'

and 'service' all three become one element. 'Good qualities' in a

human are the part of his very natural self and are never required

to be renounced- be it tyaag (sacrifice/renunciation) or forgiveness

or compassion , or tolerance or truthfulness, or humility or non

violence -they all are 'divine properties' - the very nature of

Paramatma ! Can Sun renounce light? I agree with Brother Mike- ego

can't be killed with ego- never ! It is only

sacrifice/renunciation/tyaag of " mineness " that kills ego and of

course the grace of Paramatma to the surrendered devotee. What kind

of ego a mom carries while feeding her children?

 

I agree with Madanji Kaura. We must act as per Scriptures. Only

Scriptures are the proof or the yardsticks of ideal conduct.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Shree Hari

 

Dear Sathyanarayanji

 

Minor correction - In your Mahabharat example - Arjuna brings

Ashwathama to Draupadi and not to Kunti.

 

Thank you for beautiful illustrations, they are indeed very

inspiring and fitting to the duty of the householder. Nothing

personal, would like to share a common observation - in few

instances, there have been great responses from our learned scholars

in Gita-talk forum but at times, the question at hand has not been

specifically addressed. Our moderators have been very patient about

this. Pls. forgive me for being so blunt about this observation,

kindly take my comments in a constructive way only.

 

Thanks to Gee Waman for posing a good question -

 

WHAT IS HOUSEHOLDER'S DUTY ACCORDING TO GITAJI?

 

In this particular setting, as a Kshatriya, Arjuna's duty is to

fight the war, protect the masses from the unrighteousness rule.

Depending upon the setting, circumstances and the situation at hand,

the individual's duty does vary, Arjuna too is a householder, in

household circumstances he will be playing a different role, his

duty would not be fighting the war. But the principles outlined in

our scriptures do apply: the householder's duty is described broadly

in Gitaji much in detail in many verses but for the sake of brevity,

following few are referenced here:

 

Gita: (2/ 31-38), (2/48),

(3/8-9) (3-19), (3-21), (3-35),

(16/24)

 

Gita 2-38

" :sukhadukhe same krtva, labhalabhau jayajayau

tato yudhaya yujsave, nai 'vam papam avapsyasi "

 

Meaning:

Treating alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat,

get ready for the fight (Arjuna's duty in this setting), then,

fighting thus you will not incur sin.

 

Gita 2-48

" yogasthah kuru karmani, sangam tyaktva dhanamjaya

sidhyasidhyoh samo bhutva, samatvam yoga ecyate "

 

Meaning:

Established in Yoga, perform your duty O Dhanamjaya (Arjuna),

abandoning attachment, being even-minded in success and failure;

even-mindedness is called Yoga.

 

Gita 3-19

" tasmad asaktah satatam, kayam karma samacara

asakto hy acaran karma, param apnoti purushah "

 

Meaning:

Therefore, always efficiently do your duty without attachment. Doing

work without attachment, man attains the Supreme.

 

Gita 16-24

" tasmac chastram pramanam te, karyakaryavasthitau

jnatva sastravidhanoktam, karma karatum iha 'rhasi "

 

Meaning:

Therefore, let the scripture be your authority in determining what

ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Knowing this, you

should act only in accordance with the sanction of scripture.

 

Humble regards,

Madan Kaura

---------------------------

Simple answer could be....

 

To know your true self and help everyone around i.e. family and

friends

in knowing themselves.....while doing (without the doer ship)

everything else......

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

 

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear sadaks,

Scarifies--When Sri Rama asked to give away his throne to Bharat,

Puraan says HIS face was like just flowered lotus and brightness on

HIS face. The message was from Kaykeyi (Step mother) not from

Dasarath who actually said. Sri Rama never even verified the order

from Dasarath. Means sacrifies not done with benefit or done

knowingly (Sri Rama was not knowing the act was sacrifies). The best

part was when Sri Rama returned from forest HE first went to the

hunch back lady who spoilt Kaikeyi mind. DEAR SADAKS, kaikeyi mind

got corupted because of desire (which is ongoing discussion) of her

son. There is a saying Do Dharma with one hand let not the other

hand know. Concept of Sacrifies. A small iota thought of the action

in mind is enough to bring Ego in sacrifies.

 

Jesus crucified knows body soul are differant. If someone feels

happy in crucifing the body HE was silent. HE said, " Nothing happens

without the will of my Father " . So the action of sacrifies was not

owned by Jesus, the action owned by HIS father. Before dying HE

said, " Oh father in heavens let them be spared as they know not what

they are doing " . So the action of the crucifer was also disowned by

Jesus, which in turn disowned in mind level.

Five Bala Pandavas was slined by Aswathama after the war. Sri

Krishna and Arjuna catches Aswathama brings to Kunthi. She says let

Aswathama go since he is Guru`s son. Kunthi sacrifies was a concept.

Sadaks know Baktha Gora pot maker. His enimies broke his pots to

bits whitch he was carrying by cart for sale. He started picking the

bits from floor. The enemies asked whether he was mad. He replied

the bits mat hurt the passer by, so he is clearing the way. Pots was

sacrifice and picking denotes forgiveness. Both action were not even

in mind level Same Gora due to quarrel with his wife who said not to

touch her there after. Gora was NO way different from daily

household and in showing affection to his wife, but remained

untouched living in same bed room. Just a word from his wife in

anger not to touch her, he sacrificed his years of life which we

call it happiness.

 

Buddha walking for bath. Some said abusive language. He actually

forgot then and there, but his disciples reminded him. Buddha said

when did that happened. Mind level forgiveness which not owned. So

was Sri Rama, when some one asked forgivness for their misbehaviour

HE used to say " When it happened " . We store everything in our mind

to full extent, leaving no place for Bagavan WHO keeps on saying

leave it to ME (Surrender). Same thing said, in Christianity, " Empty

thyself, I will fill it " . We wont empty for Sri Krishna to come in,

still I hear from some sadaks, " Is God gone on holidays when I am

sufferings " .

 

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

On Ashokji's comments:

It is equally possible that acts of sacrifice and that of empathy

both can boost ego or both may not necessarily boost ego, depending

on the inner postures while acting.

As I understand it, Happiness is not contrary to anything or anyone,

as in Happiness there is " nobody " that is happy, is totally devoid

of " me " . It just is That, Happiness!

Our true nature, upon realization, is experienced as Happiness-

Bliss itself. It is welcoming Presence in us which welcomes

sacrifices with joy. It says " yes " to everything arising/appearing

in it, the reason why they arise/appear in the first place.

Sometimes doing things for others can also strengthen ego if in

thoughts " doer " creeps up while doing.

Forgiveness is the greatest virtue in practical life, sure. But in

forgiving if " forgiver " , disguised " me " shows up to forgive

the " other " , it may not make us peaceful, but can boost ego.

Forgiving, to me, is to overlook, or look over ego in others and

give understanding. It is to see that the person is not bad but

his/her acts are so, due to ignorance.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

 

Raam! Raam!!

 

We are all grateful to GT Moderators for sheer service being

rendered to humanity through management of this divine web site.

With reference to the topic under discussion , however, may I state

that for the first time I saw them agreeing to a totally wrong

statements. Since it is very dangerous from 20000 + sadhak point

of view hence I must point out. Consider the following:

 

" As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES.. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH AS HAPPINESS and ANAND AS BLISS. In your response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators) "

 

What does it clarify? How spirituality is bi-modal in nature? HOW

CAN EGO ITSELF RELINQUISH ITS CHERISHED I -ness or mineness? Answer

me ! How can Ego relinquish itself ? What are natural agents,

substantial agents, social agents, psychological agents ? What was

wrong in considering Happiness and Sukh as worldly and Anand as

Bliss to be the goal of each of us? Why we should equate them so

casually? How can an inert thing like TRUE FREEDOM " itself " empower

itself to execute on its own ........?

 

Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's beliefs is deceit and

hypocracy. ( WHAT BEHAVIOUR ? WHOSE BELIEF? ) /

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. ( WHY ONE SHOULD NOT

BECOME SPECIFIC? WHY ONE SHOULD NOT BECOME SADHAK? HOW ANYTHING WE

DO IS OK? DRUG ADDICTS ARE OK? )

 

Shyama C

-------------------------------

Radhey Radhey

 

Sadhak Sushilji ! I am happy you covered yourself quickly against a

difficult note which you wrote that " Sacrifice and Happiness are

contrary " . I agree fully with your explanation except Sr No 1. It is

Sr No 2 till the end which is absolutely correct. The fact is that

every sacrifice ( renunciation) instantly produces happiness.

INSTANTLY - even if that renunciation is of body waste. It is LAW !

That it boosts ego, etc they are all craps. NO RENUNCIATION CAN EVER

FUEL EGO ! Every renunciation reduces Ego ! There is no substance in

classifying Bhoga, Happiness (sukha) and Ananda and then eloquently

concluding - " Just words....nothing more " . " If you look closely -

Happiness is happiness " !! Sheer twist of words and nothing ,

nothing more than that ! They are not just words , there are

distinctions between them as wide as are south and north poles.

 

You have not looked closely at all Mr Naga Narain. Bhoga is

temporary. Bhoga is relative. ANANDA is absolute, self proven. Dont

say so loosely whatever comes to mind. Think deeply. Have you never

heard the word PEACE ? If yes, why did not you talk about it? What

is happiness ? Know Mr Naga and accept it humbly that- Happiness is

PEACE !! Says Gita - ASHANTASYA KUTAH SUKHAM ? ( Where is happiness

to him , who is not peaceful.? ) Dont just say for the sake of

saying.

 

But I have a request to make to GT Moderators. Please insist that

there is RELEVANCE to the Q asked in the response. Sushilji ,

Vyasji, Mike, Pratapji , Jee Jee Shashikalajee all talked

about " Duties of Household " and then came finer points of

discussion. Did Mr Naga Narain talk a single word reg the Question

of Mr GeeWaman? This is not how the deliberations become focussed

and fruitful.

 

Radhey Radhey

Nisha Chatterji

--------------------------------

To GT Moderators

 

Re-Read this again and kindly explain:

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-

triggered,whether it is established within or borrowed from around,

it has the same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the

ego. Anybody can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes

alcohol why he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be

always to forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard.

If you analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to

analyze), it becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at

least to forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there.

Whether a person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance

(e.g.coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans,

etc.),and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

WHAT DOES IT MEAN ? IT MEANS THAT IF YOU ARE CONSUMING DRUGS , (

substance triggered) - so long as under the influence of drugs you

are forgetting I- ness and Me- ness , you have established yourself

to the HIGHEST ANANDA level and have achieved the goal of human

birth ??? WHAT EXACTLY IS MEANT BY THIS?

 

And GT Moderators are thanking ?? along with boldly reference to

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj !!!

 

No ! I dont want to be a party to such ecstacies! Sorry. I regret I

became member of this group.

 

Audrey Rodrigues

--------------------------------

Hare Hare

 

Recent deliberations raise more Questions than answers. How can any

SADHAK boldly state that BHOGA/SUKHA/ANANDA are same thing, only a

matter of attitude, the effect is the same !!! Incomprehensible !

 

Statements such as same Ananda gets converted into happiness/bhoga

etc. are taking us no where in this WORD PLAY. The fact is that

there is huge difference in EXPERIENCE/ VERY NATURE/ VERY ELEMENTARY

of these elements. One is relative,transitory, unnatural, unreal and

another is ABSOLUTE and NATURAL, and real. What has attitude got

to do with it is totally unclear? and mainly what does it have to

do with the Question of Mr Gee Waman?

 

Bandook Singh Rathod

 

--------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Friends

I refer to the Gita Talk Moderator's request for explanation on my

statement 'Sacrifice and happiness are contrary'

1.Mr Naga Narayan has explained it correctly and adequately that the

notion or act of sacrifices boosts ego.

2.Act done with compassion and empathy for the benefit of other

will not boost ego and the act itself will be joy.

3.Sacrifice assumes forgoing something whereas in reality the

happiness by doing something for others is much more.

4.Sacrifice ,in a way ,focuses attention on other whereas happiness

focuses on self.

5.Sacrifice assumes owning and parting with something valuable

whereas for a sadhak nothing is owned and nothing is parted with.

 

If anything done which does not boosts ego it is ok but mind is vey

subtle

 

There is fundamentally no difference of opinion in importance of

sacrifice but one has to careful about it's impact on ego.

 

Mr Naga Narayan has also mentioned Forgiveness.

 

I am willing to forgive now is the first step in forgiving. Only

saying 'I forgive now completely and unconditionaly' is not

sufficient.Major issues and problems can be resolved by one

statement 'I am willing to forgive now' It can be made a daily 5-10

minutes routine every night.

 

But even more important is ' I seek forgiveness now' This single

sentence can work miracle.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

------------------------------

 

Q: SUKH = HAPPINESS; and ANAND = BLISS. In your response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand.

 

Normally, the scriptures refer to the same in three levels - Ananda,

Sukha and Bhoga. Though they all address the same experience, the

attitude behind the experience differ dramatically depending on the

ignorance and inertia hoarded in an individual.

 

Ananda is the state of bliss where there are no attitudes - nobody

to claim the ownership of the experience. As soon as an owner (the

ego) crops up, the absolute experience becomes a memory in the

owners perception. The recall of the absolute bliss is often

referred to as Sukha. When an external agent is given the authority

over the same experience - the belief that the joy is inherent in

the objects of pleasures - it is called Bhoga.

 

In other words,

 

Bhoga – The objects are let to own the (notion of) happiness – the

ego owns the anticipation of the experience thereupon. The

individual craves for the availability of the objects of pleasures

and enterst the whirlpool of miseries.

Sukha – The subject owns the (memory of) happiness - the ego owns

the belief of enjoyership. The individual elates in his own prowess

to command the experience. On the positive side, it allows the ego

to pause to wonder and ponder `what is the nature of the happiness

and what exactly is its focus?'

Ananda – The Happiness remains as The Absolute where both the

subject and the objects are dissolved loosing their identities and

ownerships altogether.

 

But, if you look at it closely, The Happiness is The Happiness

whether one entertained apparent notion (Bhoga) or inherent notion

(Sukha) or just be THAT (Ananada). All the words are referring to

the same … but the first two have no clue of what IT really is!

Space is space and time is time whether one is congizant of the same

or not. So is The Hapiness … IT is what IT IS, nothing else.

 

Just words … nothing more …

 

Q: ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is

having our eye on other's welfare and benefit. This is true

sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING,

ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS

BENEFICIAL TO US?

 

Yes! Many other realized souls also advise the same to the worldly

men the same way!! Nobody can tell otherwise in all sanity when

the " good living " is in the context.

 

I am not well-versed on Swamiji's works. But, whatever few things I

have understood so far from his works is as follows. Swamiji

emphasises on all the good qualities when the context is relative

life. All the qualities such as non-violence, sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. are good for keeping healthy relations within

the society on one hand and are good tools to turn one's attention

from " Bhoga " toward " Sukha " - from worldly dependence toward

individual independence to actualize the spiritual practices to

start with. Swamiji refers to this as journey from Prapancha Drishti

toward Viveka Drishti. In Viveka Drishti, clear discrimination (Ref:

Sadhan Sudhaa Sindhu, Vibhaga Yoga) of the perceived dualities and

polarities in absolute clarity from the perceptional view point

itself is of paramount importance to reveal the ignorance hidden in

ones apparent knowledge. At this level, one has to see through ones

appreciation to realize what really is " good " and what really

is " bad " even from the perceptional standards. That is essential to

lead a " good living " . And, " good living " is essential for

spirituality. No arguments there.

 

The same Swamiji also continues further while educating our Viveka

Drishti toward Bhagavaddrishti ( " Sukha " toward " Ananda " ) to explain

how even the acts of Deep Trans (Samadhi) - let alone regular

Bhajans, Meditations, and other good living qualities - belong to

the dominion of the Insentient World, The Prakriti. No trace of ego

is enetertained at The Ananda, The Sentient, The Purusha (Ref:

Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Bhagavattattva). The Avinaashee Ras that he

explains in the next chapter is an eye opener from this perspective.

Only THAT is present and nothing else - not even Samadhi in that

Sahaja Sthiti.

 

Therefore, it depends on the context. A Bhogi needs to be educated

to become a Sukhi … and a Sukhi seeks Ananda naturally. In the first

phase, good qualities should be imbibed … in the second phase, even

that should be dropped. Interestingly, there is no sequence in these

phases … we, as seekers, often oscillate between the three states of

happiness (Bhoga, Sukha and Ananda) due to the inertia and ignorance

gravitated within. Till we purge the lump of ignorance and inertia

out we cannot help it. However, pragmatic appreciation (Yathaartha

Gnyaana) of what we do, how we do and who we are is essential.

Somehow, I am fascinated by the second phase more than the first.

That is all. It does not mean that the first phase is of any

insignificance.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

As our Moderators note Mike's post, I would also say yes, we are a

one big (happy) family. It is happy family because happiness comes

from our bigness. If we feel divided and shrunk, we don't feel

happy. Our bigness makes us integrally one and acts as if we are

one, and hence leaves no room for conflict inherent in division.

Such bigness manifests in well being of all because whoever does

whatever is for well being of one and all.

Secondly I want to build on what Shashikalaji said on Ego.

Ego is a " sense " (perception) of separation in our Consciousness-

Atman, which is ONE, and cannot be divided into many.

This sense is also called " me " or " I " , mistaken to be an

independently existing entity.

This " me " is only a thought in mind or a feeling/sensation

(pains/pleasures) in body that we identify with and say its " me "

or " I " . Once there is " me " , mineness ensues! If we don't identify

body as " me " just as toddlers don't, there cannot be " mineness " .

Mineness can be many but " me " is only one appearing as many

mineness. " me " is hiding place for mineness.

This " me " becomes stronger with external sense perception which we

call world " out there " and thus we say " not-I or not-me " . Thus not-I

or not-me gives more credibility to " me " and viceversa. Soon the

mere sense becomes reality.

Strangly enough, " me " is never our experience! When examined, our

experience seems to be of being conscious of thoughts and sensations

of forms/objects perceived/conceived only. In otherwords,

Consciousness is the only experience upon which we superimpose body-

mind-world. Then to this-body-mind we say " me " and the other-bodies-

world become not-me.

Experientially the body appears in mind as thought; the mind and the

world, both, appear as thoughts in Consciousness. This very

Consciousness is Atman, or Brahman or Reality or Pure Soul, or

Pure " Presence-I AM " or Existence which is conscious of itself

called SELF!

SELF is Sat-Chit experience(anubhutirupah). As such it is never

embodied, rather body-mind-world are in It, It permeates the entire

universe. Everything is in It as Itself.

IF one can see the truth of it, one gets liberated, JeevnMukta.

This is ONE TRUTH, all else is Bondage!

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

In response to the comment by the moderators, to my somewhat

truncated response, I have contemplated Gitaji for what was

underlying my thoughts.

 

'A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on.

 

Taking the verses from Gitaji posted below, and looking at a profile

of a family head who has gained these attributes:

 

The man of restraint is awake

In what is night for all beings;

That in which all beings awake

Is night for the wise one who sees. B.G. 2(69)

 

The highest Self of him who has

Conquered himself and is peaceful,

Is steadfast in cold, heat, pleasure,

Pain; and honor and dishonor. B.G. 6(7)

The yogi who is content in

Knowledge and discrimination,

With senses conquered–unto him

Earth, stone, and gold are all the same. B.G. 6(8)

He attains eminence who looks

The same on well-wishers, friends, foes,

Neutral to enemies and kin,

The righteous and the unrighteous. B.G. 6(9)

 

Would not get caught up with mob mentality, understanding his duty

to create a wise and functioning family.

Being at peace, with the Divine shining through, will do what is

right, will not show favoritism, see the worth in all, including the

members of ones family. (Not to be one eyed, about the family or its

members).

Not to waste effort, in trying to buy affection within the family

with trinkets and toys even if they are sports cars etc.

Understanding that one should not judge, as all is working out as it

will (Lila). But with compassion and love one can offer sound

guidance.

(These attributes are far more global than family, but actually are

we not one big family?)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor).

 

---------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

MIKE! Thank you! BEAUTIFULLY SAID. Are we not one big family? Thus

is our PRIMARY duty AS A " ONE BIG " FAMILY MAN - " Sarvabhootahite

rataah " (Gita 12:4)? That is - May we all be absorbed in the well

being of all. What is sadhak's understanding regarding this? Does

Gita speak at all of the smaller family nucleas that we think off as

family?

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Excellent Q by GT Moderators ! There are two ahams (egos) . One that

relates with " existence " of the self (I exist) . A Jnana Yogi

establishes himself into that only. That remains in all three yogis-

Jnana, Bhakti and Karma yogis, even after liberation/kalyaan.

 

There is " another " ego which is connecting " self " (pure soul) to

inert (to world - body/mind/intellect). It is always " worldly " ego.

I am body, I am Doctor, I am rich etc. This " me " gets destroyed with

destruction of " mine " immediately as a law. What remains behind is

pure unattached free " self " !

Jeevan Mukta. Liberated while living. Janaka, Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj, Vaashishtha, Kaak Bhusandi etc had become liberated before

merging with Brahma. Their binding ego had destroyed but " I exist "

this awareness remained. " I " thus remained there. But that " I "

always remained in " Equanimity " mode- unattached !

 

In fact 'desire', 'spriha' , 'mamata' and 'ahankaar' all four are

one element only-worldly ego ! Desire is gross. " Spriha " (worry for

basic needs for body ) is subtle than desire. " Mamata " (mineness) is

more subtle than " spriha " . Ego (me) is the subtlest among the four

names of same element. Hence in " effect " you renounce

fully " mamata " , you will become " egoless " and vice versa !

 

As regards reference of Gita/Swamiji - please refer pg 137 of Sadhak

Sanjeevani where Swamiji while commenting upon BG 2:71 had stated

exactly what I have written. Read particularly second last para on

pg 137 (Hindi) of Sadhak Sanjeevani !

 

When the body is not " mine " , then I don't need anything . Desire

for what? Worry for what? When nothing is " mine " then what remains

in " me " ?

" Me " in fact is always with reference to worldly possessions, body

etc. When " mine " is gone, very basis for " me " is gone !! What

remained behind is " I exist " - this awareness only ! Unattached,

Free, Liberated - me - I exist !!

 

A Karma yogi (Grihashtha-houeshold generally) strives to

renounce " mineness " - mamata by putting his/her body, belongings,

powers etc fully into the service of the world. By doing that

his/her " mineness " first gets destroyed and thereupon ego (me -ness)

gets purified of " worldly impact/connection " ! A Jnana Yogi first

eliminates " me-ness " (ahankaar- I am doer) by renouncing worldly

activities in favour of nature ( I am not body. I don't do

anything ) and thereupon his/her mamata gets renounced. A Bhakti

yogi changes his " me-ness " from worldly to Godly ( I am of God ) and

mineness from worldly to Godly (ONLY God is mine) and thus becomes

egoless and mamtaless !! All three thus renounce " connection with

inert- world - body/mind/intellect/activity/matter " . " I exist " -

this awareness remains in them till death ! They use body, mind,

intellect - but in " equanimous mode " - unattached !!

 

Thanks ! Nothing pleases me more than such Question / Answer

sessions. A really good Question !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

THANK YOU JEE JEE! (GT MODERATORS)

--------------------------------

Thanks for the wonderful questions …

 

How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit - the

ego?

Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family man?

Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there must

be certain duties of a Householder?

 

Let us see …

 

Q: How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit -

the ego?

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-triggered,

whether it is established within or borrowed from around, it has the

same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the ego. Anybody

can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes alcohol why

he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be always to

forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard. If you

analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to analyze), it

becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at least to

forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there. Whether a

person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance (e.g.

coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans, etc.),

and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

Its uniques aspect of the happiness is its independence of all the

media through which one attains it. Also, the happiness should be

ever present everywhere. Otherwise, how can one attain it

irresepctive of the media chosen? How can one attain the same every

time consistently? How can anybody attain it any time anywhere? This

reinforces the theory that it is present across time and space,

rather it transcends space and time and therefore everything else.

 

When it is independent of everything, why should one develop

dependence on anything else? When it is ever-present everywhere in

abundance, why every one seem to struggle to pursue the same as if

in a panick that there is a scarcity of the same? That remains the

puzzle for everyone.

 

The reason why we loose sight of the happiness is the corruption

smeared by the ego who comes back to action claiming ownership over

the erstwhile experience of the happiness. Knowing the un-ownable

nature of the happiness subconciously, the ego enforces its

authority further by making a belief that the happiness is hidden in

the objects and actions because it feels it can manipulate them.

Without its own knowledge, it becomes a slave to the same ideas,

actions and objects which are its slaves in its belief. That is the

weakness of the ego … dependence on external entities such as

objects, actions and ideas to believe the presence of the happiness.

It does not understand, rather it refuses to understand, that the

very same ideas, actions or objects could provide happiness only by

removing itself from its cognition by disconnecting it from the

mechanism of relating itself to the I-ness and Mine-ness in real.

Due to its ignorance of what is happening, it becomes addicted to

the very notions, actions and objects to " forget " itself.

 

As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH = HAPPINESS and ANAND = BLISS. In you response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators)

 

Q: Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family

man?

 

When one is established in CONTENTMENT and FREEDOM how can he ever

disturb others?! Even when one is working toward THAT, how can there

be exploitation of others? Compassion floods out when one is filled

with Freedom and Contentment; compassion oozes out even when one's

vision is fixed toward THAT. Such a person can never be

inconsiderate to his environment - be it the family, or colleagues,

or fellow travellers, or any stranger on the street. Compassion to

others is an eventuality, a natural eventuality ascertaining the

abundance of happiness within. Apparent lack of compassion is the

symptom of the inherent lack of contentment and freedom. One has to

dig deep through the apparent symptom toward the inherent root cause

to correct the corruption at deeper and deeper layers. THAT TO ME IS

THE SPIRITUALITY. Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's

beliefs is deceit and hypocracy.

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. All the disturbances of

an ocean is superficial … the deeper we dive, the more peaceful it

is … the abyss of all the bliss is inherent in our depths

where " what we think we do " as well as " what we think we are " are

both annihilated without traces.

 

Q: Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there

must be certain duties of a Householder?

 

The notions of sacrifice, forgiving, etc. have a corrupt notion

thanks to our ego. What is meant really to people in common sense is

that, a person forgoes his happiness for others' happiness in these

acts. That means, the ownership is strongly enseeded in such

notions. Typically, sacrifice would mean " Yes that is mine, but I do

not mind giving to the other man so that he can be happy with! " Same

way, forgiving typically means, " Yes the other fellow did something

wrong; but it is OK; let me be magnanimous enough not to react; poor

fellow he does not know what he is doing! " Do you see the strength

of ownership in a subtle camafluage here? That is dangerous for

spirituality.

 

In contentment, there is no room for ideas such as sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. Whatever a content man does looks like sacrifice

as he is not staking for any fruits from the actions that flow out

of him. Also, since whatever the environemnt does to him are lost in

the oblivion of the contentment within and hence cannot invoke any

reaction at all. Therefore, it sounds like he is forgiving

everything that is happening around. To him … there is no sacrifice

and no forgiving. For him, " there is nothing mine to aid others " .

Then how can there be a notion of sacrifice? For him, " nothing can

go wrong as there is nothing wrong in the first place " . Then how can

there be a notion of forgiving? Obviously both notions belong to the

others who harbor their respective egoes!

 

(THANK YOU ! WE SEE NOW THE POINT. ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS

EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is having our eye on other's

welfare and benefit. This is true sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO

SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING, ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG

I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS BENEFICIAL TO US? From Gita Talk

Moderators).

 

For social and personal upliftment, a softer ego is better than the

crude one, I agree. Notions such as sacrifice, forgiving, etc. are

very useful there. In spiritual upliftment, ego is not acceptable in

any form. When the ego itself is annihilated in spiritual

upliftment, all other upliftments are just natural within that. That

is the beauty of spirituality versus " good living " . " Good living "

(Samaja Dharma) requires many tenets and doctrines as it still

remains variant and circumstantial. Spirituality (Sanaatana Dharma),

on the other hand, is eteranl and unique. It transcends all the

variations as well as the variants catergorically. The happiness

(Ananda) is its abode.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

The moment one applies self conscience the question of evaluation of

the task sets in, i.e., result is viewed and assessed whether it is

a " good " or " bad " job to do. The assigned job has to be done without

any consideration to that aspect.Could the doubt be cleared by this

humble person ? Namaste..

 

 

 

 

Grihastha - Household is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity) which a

human being is subjected to. No other tapasya is as subtle, as

fierce and as consuming as is that of a household. One must always ,

therefore, remember this 'grihastha' is a school for one's

emancipation and address the same accordingly.

 

Barin Chatterjee

------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

Look at the family of Lord Shiva ! Lord Shiva sports garland of

skulls and serpent. Lord Shiva's vehicle is bull. Parvatiji on the

contrary is always wearing beautiful ornaments. Parvatiji's vehicle

is Lion. Their son, Lord Ganesha's vehicle is mouse. Their second

son Lord Karthikeya's vehicle is peacock. The serpent and mouse are

by birth fierce enemies. Mouse is the food of serpent. Peacock and

serpent are enemies. Peacock kills serpent. Lion and bull are

enemies. Bull is food for lion. Bitter enemies of each other. All in

one family. But, all live in perfect harmony and comfortably.

 

JUST AS: In Lord Shiva's family all members have different and

contrasting natures, still there is unity in the family.

 

SIMILARLY: All members of any household have different natures, and

different perspectives, and still there can be unity.

 

How? Each member should look at his role and duty only and not at

other's role and duty. One should always strive to give pleasure to

other. " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST " - should be the 'bhava'

(inner expression) of a Grihastha.

 

A grihastha in order to provide pleasure to other family members,

must renounce his own pleasures. That renunciation in fact is true

austerity ! It is law that without renouncing your own pleasure, you

can't provide happiness to others.

 

1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures- if you do these, you have lived

well in the grihashtha.

 

Sadhaks should remember that it is in Grihastha only- each and every

household, no exceptions- that you get practical opportunities to

get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual likings

and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha) and learn fine points of

real " karma yoga " and " bhakti yoga " . Grihashtha Ashram (Household)

is the most important and most beneficial phase of each human being.

One must therefore make best use of it. It is in grihastha, seeds of

of your old age are sown.

 

Above all, in Grihastha it is the utmost duty of a male is to see

God in his parents. If a grihashtha merely obeys his parents , his

life becomes divine. His old age becomes ideal.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

" O descendant of Bharata, at that time Krishna, smiling, in the midst

of both the armies, spoke the following words to the grief-stricken

Arjuna. " B.G. 2:10

 

The 'Smile of Krishna', that is pregnant with, Divine Love,

Compassion, and Wisdom.

 

If one is of a nature to have these qualities in the household,

then peace and love will prevail.

 

Being detached from the Ego Wars, will give one the ability to be of

real value to all within the family sphere, (and those who know you).

 

A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on. (PLEASE ELABORATE ON THE QUALITIES - FROM

GITA TALK MODERATORS)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor)

--------------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally. Doing happens while

doer disappears! At all stages and in all roles duties will be

performed within the guidelines of Dharma as appropriate for the

circumstances one is placed, because one is Loving what has to be

done.

Without feeling such Love, duty feels like forced upon one, and

becomes chores, and boring! With Love, it is not so much as duty,

that one has to do, but rather its a Joy to do it.

So the real issue boils down to " what stops such Love to flow

freely? " Not realizing what I truly AM.

However, we can be guided by wisdom of Gita to ultimately realize

our true nature by performing duties in the best possible ways we

know, with devotion, with Love and without any expectations or

favors. Doing in such a way is its own reward, Yoga itself,

incorporating Yogah Karmashu Kaushalam principle of Gita

So as a householder with family, one takes care of those who are

entrusted to one by God. with an attitude of seeing the family as

gift from God, and serving them is to serve God. That is all!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Grihastha is the feeder to all other ashrams. Saints also get food

from households only. The beauty of grihastha ashram is that " you

can't run away " from your duties. You must do your duties- else

shatterred home ! A sadhu if he confronts with something

unpleasant , he will simply take his kamandal and walk away from the

scene. But a household can not ! That is " austerity " !

 

Rule of Grihastha is simple- Serve, Serve and serve ! Do your duty !

It is a law that service/duty destroys " mamata " . It is also a law

that if mamata is destroyed, ego gets destroyed automatically. You

instantly realise God if mamata (mine) is destroyed. What else ego

consists except " me " ? Where is the " me " when " mine " is

destroyed? " Me " (ego) and " Mine " ( mamata) are the chains which bind

a human being to the world. From this only Raag and Dvesha emerge !

Household is the place where you can easily -simply by serving the

family-destroy them decisively and achieve the very purpose for

which the human life has been given to you !

 

" Nirmamo Nirahankarasya sa shanti madi gachhati " - He who has

become " minenessless " and " egoless " gets permanent Peace and

liberation.

 

As simple as that !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

(Shashikalaji, ANY REFERENCE? CAN ONE NOT BE FREE OF MAMTA (free

of mine-ness)BUT STILL HAVE SENSE OF I-NESS (EGOISM)? GT

MODERATORS)

 

--------------------------

Friends

1.Arjuna was a Gruhastha, a family man and a householder.The

teachings applicable to Arjuna is applicable to

Gruhastha or householder.

2.The difference between Gruhastha and Sannyasi is difference in

objects of desire or attachment. King Janak devoid of attachment

was better and spiritually advanced than many Cannabis.

3.As rightly mentioned by Shri Naga Narayana the only duty of human

beings is to be happy. It is the substance,core and outcome of all

knowledge and efforts.

4.God is also called 'SAT CHIT ANAND' meaning mind/heart filled

with indestructible/permanent joy.Such state is not dependent on

others.

5.Happiness or Joy cannot be at other's cost or expense.

6.Sacrifice and happiness are contrary. Sacrifice will not provide

happiness. (KINDLY EXPLAIN - FROM GITA TALK MODERATOR)

7.According to Gita ,the only duty is to unite with God because that

alone can be source of happiness.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

KAMA--ARTHA--MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

The 4 steps Grahastha need to do.

But the Grahasta has to do and live as per sastras that Bagavan

says. Grahasth has lot of duties on shoulder as Kunthi had. But

Kunthi did well.

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

duty=dharama ?

Family or no family, the only dharma of a man is to unite with God.

1.Accept God is mine and family belongs to God. So serve the family

considering it as a gift given to you by God, with the capacity

given to you by God, with the tools given to you by God.

 

2.Choose any path-gyaan yoga, bhakti yoga or karma yoga. The common

element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme is the most important.

Many hard working people think that they are following karma yoga,

but they take all responsibily on themselves, they worry, they

insist on certain outcome, they trust their own strength, to me they

are not Yogi.

 

yoga-sthah kuru karmani

sangam tyaktva dhananjaya

siddhy-asiddhyoh samo bhutva

samatvam yoga ucyate

 

Establish yr self in Yoga and perform yr duties,abandon all

attachment to success or failure. Such evenness of mind is called

yoga.....

 

Do whatever God wants you to do while reaiming established in yoga.

with Love,

a sadhika

 

Sadhna Karigar

-----------------------

 

 

Hi,

According to scriptures, 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of

gratitude. Human being is bound to do duties at various levels of

his life i.e Saisavam, Balyam, Kaumaram and Vardhakyam. In Kaumaram

normaly one takes up life of a householder or Grihastha. A

householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha. To fully live

the life of a human the operation manual called Gita is available

for reference at any level for us.

 

with love, krishnadasan.

----------------------------

 

Dear Sadhak,

Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined elsewhere. One is not to analyze it, nor aspire for it.

Whatever comes in the way that has to be performed with all

sincerity, without having any interest in the result. One has been

given only the right of execution of the assigned work, neither the

cause of it nor the effect.(Karmanye ebo te adhikara, kodachono

faleshu ma, In Gita-II.47).

Option of becoming a Family man was also assigned which has its own

format. The format has also to be strictly followed, as it comes in

the way, but never one can apply his self conscience about

evaluation of the quality of the work assigned. (karmasanginam

agynang budhivedang na jonoyet bidwan jukto sarba karmani sadacharan

jojayet...Gita III-26)

 

BARIN CHATTERJEE

 

Warm regards

--------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR BARINJI,

Kindly explain what you mean in the last paragraph ... " never one can

apply his self conscience....... " .

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

--------------------------

There is ONLY ONE DUTY for all irrespective of what they do ...

BEING HAPPY!

 

As Shankara says,

 

Jatilo mundee lunchita keshah kashaayaambra bahukrita veshah |

Pashyannapi cha na pashyati mudhah udaranimittam bahukritaveshah ||

 

everyone has to do something or the other. One claims to be a house-

holder having no clue of what is house and what is holding. So is a

Sanyasi equally clueless of what Sanyasa means. One may ask, what is

the basis to doubt of their knowledge upon what they are doing?

Happiness, my dear friend. One who is unhappy does not where he

is ... because he does not know what he is doing ... because he does

not know who he is ...

 

Whether you are happy with what you are doing depends on your

intellect. Whether you are happy with what you are depends on your

wisdom. The question really is ... whether you want to be happy with

what you are doing ... or with what you are.

 

If you want to be happy with what you do ... many questions

follow ... how is my " doing " related to happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary as I see ... then, how much " doing " is

required to maintain the derivative happiness?

 

The " doing " is multitude and variant ... then how many " doings "

should I do to derive effective happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary, multitude and variant, how can I ever say

that the " happiness-es " derived from my various " doings " is really

the happiness?

 

Now the first question looms around stronger ... has the " doing "

anything to do with the happiness at all?!

 

I you want you to be happy with what you are ... then who cares what

you do? Stick with what you think you are.

 

Then comes the question, " Am I the one that I think that I am? "

 

Then, my dear friend, the clock starts ticking for you toward the

real happiness ... because you will find that you are not whatever

you thought as, perpetually. You will discover that all your

thoughts of " what you are " were in fact your " doings " and

never " you " . Then you may also realize that your happiness were

perpetually consumed by these parasites ... your identities ...

your " doings " and your " are-s " . As far as we are cognizant of what

we " are " and what we " do " , we are OK ... we can interrogate them

further.

 

Relating " what we do " and " what we are " to the happiness is an

absurd baseless logic ... it is called " Kaakataaleeya Nyaaya " . A

crow sits on a palm tree. Palm fruit falls down. The observer says,

the palm fruit falls down when a crow sits on the tree. The observer

beleives that there is a relation having not given any attention to

what relation means! Being happy is neither in " what we do " nor

in " what we think we are " . Both are the two faces of the same coing -

IDENTITY, the ego. In fact, if you were ever happy, my dear friend,

it was ONLY WHEN you had kept this coin away in your pocket.

 

Therefore, whatever you are and whatever you do is OK as far you are

happy. Because your happiness indicates the absence of the true

culprit - the ego. If we stick to the happiness as such, we will

then realize that " what is needed is to throw away this fellow, the

ego. Then what I do does not matter ... and what I am does not

matter ... I am happy as I should be! " . In my opinion, that is

spirituality.

 

Therefore, I see only one rule for spirituality irrespective of what

we are and what we do ... being happy ... being happy at the

core ... being nothing but happiness as such.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

---------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR NAGA NARAYANA JI, Yes! Being happy at the core is key ! One

doubt arises is can one be happy at another's expense as a

householder/family man? Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides

being happy, there must be certain duties of a Householder. Kindly

explain .. how one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true

culprit - the ego?

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

---------------------------

Interesting question......

 

It is all about knowing your true self.........while playing the

role whatever it may be........

Start with positive thought then to Happy thought and try to shift

to no thoughts....

 

As a householder even reaching to the stage of keeping happy

thoughts all the time works very fine and

gives great results and then the ultimate may happen too....while

the role of a householder goes on

perfectly, joyously........

 

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

Duties of a Gruastha

 

Very simple I believe. I know I don't write much because I am afraid

I may offend some people as I have my own strong views as well.

 

It is nice that you used the word DUTY. Life is a duty and one has

to understand the difference between duty and Maya. Maya attaches

you to the physical manifestation, duty is done as an entity and not

shrouded in Maya. As a father, mother, brother son, sister etc one

performs duty. Thus Moksha is easier to attain.

 

Happy to call this my 2 cents.

shashi dave

------------------------------

SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES

 

- only dharma of a man is to unite with God

- Accept God is mine and family belongs to God.

- Follow any path, common element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme

- 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of gratitude.

- householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha

- operation manual called Gita is ever available to us

- Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined

- Duty is to be performed with all sincerity, without attachment to

the result

- Being Happy at the core

- Know your true self, all else is a role

- From positive to happy to no thoughts!

- role of a householder goes on perfectly, joyously

- Life is a duty and one has to understand the difference between

duty and Maya

- Householder life is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity)

- Attitude must be - " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST "

- 1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures

- When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally.

- get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual

likings and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha)

- utmost duty of a male is to see God in his parents

- become free of mamta and ahamtaa by serve, serve, serve.

- Free of I-ness and Mine-ness.

- DHARMA - ARTHA - KAMA- MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

 

 

 

 

-------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

 

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Dear Sadhakas, Namakar

 

Please enlighten me, regarding what are the duties of a Gruhastha

(family man, householder), according to Geetaji.

 

....Gee Waman

-------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

There is a real concern in Sadhak Aurdrey Rodrigues.D ear sadhak

Aurdey, please bring yr understanding and Truth instead of running

away.

I would like to put forward my understanding on this subject..

 

- Pleasure(bhog) belongs to body,

- Happiness(sukh) belongs to mind, and

- Bliss(anand) belongs to Self(Atman)

 

Although in physical pleasure and mental happiness some one can

enjoy absence of " I " but it is in no way can be equated to

Meditation or any other spiritual practices because -

1. Here in bhoga or sukh we drop our selves below our thoughts level

that is why it is called animal instincts. In happiness we feel

absence of desire so we feel contented temporarily. But bhog and

sukh both are temporary stages.

 

2. Pleasure or happiness are product of selfish acts which is against

Karma yoga, gyaan yoga or bhakti yoga. Bliss emerges out of

Love , Service and Knowledge. Bliss is our true nature, it merges out of our

union with our true Self.

 

3. We are not aware of our true Self in these states of physical

pleasures, or mental happiness. Which is the biggest

mistake. Anything that detach us from our real SELF is a bondage,

maya or illusion.

 

Once a fly sat on Gautama Buddha's head and his hand went there and

it flew off. Then He said to his disciple, " I just committed a sin " .

The disciple wondered and asked How ? He explained that his hands

automatically, unconsciously went to the fly and any act of

unawareness is a sin.

 

Spiritual practices leads sadhak to a state where he always remains

alert, awake and conscious. Most refined practices ask sadhak to

constantly watch breath, stay alert and remain in present.

 

When Gitaji starts Arjuna was in complete illusion. But in the last

chapter he says-

 

" Nasto Mohah smrti labdha... " 18:73

 

" my moha/illusion has been destroyed and I regained my memory.... "

We need to regain our memory, we need to know that we are part of

the Supreme, we are one with HIM. To remain in union, Krishna has

shown us paths of Gyaan, Karma and Bhakti yoga. Sadhu or grihastha,

does not matter, please follow these paths shown by Lord Krishna

Himself. Use your power of discrimination as Shashikalaji pointed out.

 

All sadhaks please know that many new sadhak, many teens are also a

part of this group. Scriptures quotes/words should not be misleading.

 

with Love,

a sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

----------------------------

 

 

Hi All,

From these very many nice comments, quotings from Gita and wonderful

explanations done by all, one can understand what is 'duty' really

means as 'action performed with a sense of gratitude'.. I believe

none of these people are motivated in reaping out a particular

selfish benefit for them by their, these actions. Everyone's

knowledge of the subject matter is expressed here. 'Knowing'

is 'Being'. Knowledge of 'fire' leads one to take care of the fire.

Knowing that the so called 'Sukha' discussed here is not real sukha,

one should not crave for gaining such worldly pleasures. It's

shortlived. Anything shortliving is temperory. Anything temperory is

not sukha which gives dukha at the end of it. Rather one should

attain the permanant sukha described in Gita. That is what is said

in verse 22 of Ch.5 'adyantavantha kaunteya na theshu ramathe

budhah " The wise never rejoice in it. All worldy bhoga are

generators of sorrow, as in first line of the verse 22 says: " yehi

samsparsaja bhoga dukhayonava ena they " A householder's duty

towards the family, is to protect the family, is right, no doubt

about it. But anything done with a selfish motive behind, does not

give everlasting joy; it leads to sorrows alone. As 'knowing is

being' one can not act otherwise of what he knows. All actions are

done depending upon one's knowledge of the action, to be performed.

Right knowledge comes to everyone if one really seeks fot it. This

is the law of nature.,

 

krishnadasan.

 

------------------------------

 

Nishaji,

 

Forgotten " me " jumps back ... that is the problem with Bhoga. The

ego has never excercised its freedom.

 

Acknowledged " me " stays ... that is the limitation of the Sukha.

 

Annihilated (removed at roots) " me " can neither stay nor return ...

THAT is the wonder of ANANDA.

 

Purport is, therefore, Bhoga, Sukha and Ananda have nothing to do

with anything but one's attitude toward the experience.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

--------------------------

 

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

As per Moderatorji's suggestion, I offer my terminology based on

understanding, consistent with scriptures. To me, our inner

experience is the most important authority to understand what

scriptures may be pointing to. When talking about this inner

experience we may be using different words/terminology and confusion

seems to arise.

 

Ego: When the light of Atman(as though) shines/reflects in the

Antahkarana ( body-senses-mind-intellect), it becomes the inner

instrument of cognition identifying with body as " I " purely for

functionality pointing at Existence-Consciousness-Witnessing

Presence. However, " I " may be mistaken as an independent reality of

its own apart from the Atman. This is just as Sun reflecting in a

bucket of water and reflection believing itself as real due to

partially endowed ability by Sun to shine nearby objects. This

results in a sense of " me " , who thinks it is personal doer and

enjoyer/sufferer of the deeds performed by the body-mind it

calls " mine " . This is ego and is ignorance itself! Thus I can say

that identified SELF(ignorance) is EGO itself. I can also say that

ego is not under illusion, rather, ego is an illusion because it is

not but appears to be.

 

As the ego believes it to be real, it treats all objects of senses

as real and therefore, gets attached and indulges in them (bhogas)

and suffers or oscillates between pleasures and pains(sukha/dukha)!

That which is not real but taken as Real can only bind us!

In the wake of knowledge, the identification breaks down and one

realizes one's true nature being experiential (anubhutirupah)

Reality - Supreme Consciouness and Bliss follows!

 

Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt

 

PS: To answer Nishaji's question on when " me " is forgotten, all

become Divine!

" me " is not to be forgotten, rather it is to be understood

thoroughly as to its Reality.

When it is found to be false, non-existent, ignorance, upon inquiry,

it goes away on its own, meaning now our actions come from wisdom of

Atman, God, and not from limited " me " causing bondage. Actions and

Happiness speak for its diappearance!

 

I see the difference between that which I call Bliss or Happiness

and Bhogas/Sukhas. The former has no opposites, doesn't depend on

objects of the senses only, and has no " me " pursuing it, while later

is with sensual pleasures, come in pairs of opposites, it is never

complete, differing in degrees or extents only, and are dependent on

objects, and hence temporary.

 

Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------

 

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Who seeks freedom ? Certainly not Ego ! Ego is inert. IN FACT IT DOES NOT EXIST

AT FIRST PLACE. (BG 2:16) It is " Jeeva " who seeks freedom.

 

Who suffers/enjoys? It is Jeeva (Purusha/Self) and not ego as

suggested by you !! Ego is part of Prakriti. How can insentient

element (say machine) ever suffer? (Gita 13: 20 addresses who

suffers) Simple !!

 

Who thinks that he acts? Ego is cause there. Self/Jeeva assumes he is doer.

Read Gita 3:27 - " The fool, whose mind is deluded by egoism , thinks : I am the

doer " !

 

Therefore, who can take an initiative to remove the hurdle for

attaining liberation? The self adopts the " world " , not the ego! Self goes to

hell or heaven not ego which is part of prakrati. Self becomes egoless. Self

becomes liberated ! How

can ego take initiative? Gita 7:4/5 explains the difference!

 

It is Jeeva/Swayam/Self who surrenders ! One who suffers, one who needs to get

liberated, that only can surrender.

 

Sentient only needs to surrender because sentient only

has " assumed " affinity, sentient only goes to heaven and hell,

sentient only is suffering, SENTIENT ONLY CAN SURRENDER !! How can a

machine surrender? Ego is inert/imaginary/false/an assumption of the

Self only. Can a thought surrender or the thinker surrenders ?

 

Mr Naga Narain, Inert is like a machine! Can machine

surrender? Can machine get bound? Can machine suffer or enjoy? One needs to

think about these - Why Jeeva suffers? What powers Jeeva has? How he misutilises

them? How he gets bound? How he gets deluded?

 

Here is how EGO is defined in Scriptures:

 

The ego, which is without substance, is only inert, of the nature of

corpse. It is produced by the individual soul (Jeeva) , as a ghost,

which is of the nature of a delusion, is produced by the mind of a

boy !!

 

It is only by surrendering to Gita, this holy science, this knowledge is

revealed. In one line Gita will reveal what is Jeeva are remove all

ignorance/insistence. As I have stated several times before, it is better to

throw the mind into a dust bin, when we lift Gita !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------

 

 

Hari Om

 

Well since the current deliberations have taken a different

direction, I must state that Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma state in

no uncertain terms that doctrine that everything is Brahman

(Vasudeva Sarvam) when displayed or revealed , surely does not befit

one whose intellect is half learned. Contemplating with the

perception of BHOGAS (of enjoyments that brings objects before the

mind) , this person perishes.

 

 

Hence, At first, let one purify himself with virtues like

tranquillity and self restraint. Then let him teach others , " All is

Brahman " !! Whoever tells an ignorant person , who is half awakened,

that everything is Brahman, that ignorant person is joined to a

multitude of big hells by him.

 

It is proper to say there is no impurity of Nescience only to that

noble person who has an awakened intellect , whose desire for

enjoyments (Bhogas) has vanished and who is without expectations !

 

One must appreciate that the mere enjoyment of objects of pleasure

(Bhogas) , agreeable only at the current moment (say when there is

temporary /forced forgetfulness or erasure of even " me or mineness "

is also there) and has an inevitable end , is NOT truly coducive to

happiness. Those enjoyment fields are transient, causes of worldly

existence, liable to change quickly and ARE DREADFUL !!

 

Thus, in such cases, impurity or sin and also pain exist quite at

the end of every expectation of pleasure, as soot exists at the end

of flame !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

-----------------------------

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

One must be careful not to equate everything under the Sun in the

garb of 'Vasudeva Sarvam'. Gita BG 5:18 regarding seeing Brahmin, a

cow, a dog, an elephant or a dog eater equally must not be

misunderstood.

 

Scriptures state that for such people, the very scriptures are a

burden ! The very knowledge is a burden. They have been called in

Scriptures as " Jathar Gardabhas " - Aged Donkeys !

 

Says Swamiji in Gita Prabodhini :

 

Only those with lack of understanding (lack of mental grasp or lack

of intelligence), present as an example the verse BG 5:18 to

advocate 'equal treatment' with all. What is written in verse

is " equal perception " (seeing with an equal eye) not " equal

treatment / conduct

/ adoption " ! 'Samdarshinah' has been employed not 'Samvartinah' in

the verse !

Our eye should see the Paramatma in them, but we should not

start 'treating'

them equally merely because in all He is present ! Our conduct with

them has to

have

'discrimination' (viveka)! such as worship of Brahmin and not

worship of Dog.

It is about seeing with an equal eye, i.e. beholding Bhagwaan

pervading

everywhere, but have different dealings with different beings

according to what

is proper based on differences in food, qualities, conduct and caste

etc.

 

That is not against the principles of equanimity, or Vasudeva

Sarvam. We can't keep the stone in cupboard and gold ornaments on

road because of Vasudeva Sarvam ! We can't consume poison or filth

because all is one in essence. Our conduct in household life must be

based on the distinctions, but at the same time have an " equal eye "

to them, but not in our attitude/conduct/actions towards the same !

 

We are talking of " what a household should DO " What to do, how to

do - is the question. Your 'conduct', your actions are under ambit

of the question. Your eye or vision is not answer. Answer

is 'discriminate' between a dog and a brahmin when contemplating

worship. Discriminate between a child and an adult in family while

distributing sweets. Discriminate between wife and mother while

contemplating physical enjoyment. To quote there BG 5:18 or talk of

Vasudeva Sarvam - appears to be sheer irrelevance, and likely to be

misleading.

 

Essence of everything and anything is not the same, cannot be the

same. It is fatal to think so ! Let us learn to 'discriminate' !! If

the essence of everything and anything is same then why Scriptures

provide for what should be done and what should not be done? Why

distinctions are made such as 'sattvik' / 'rajasik' / 'tamasic' ?

Yes, Paramatma is there in all three, but should we then become

tamasic ? Drop the 'good qualities' in you us under the garb

of 'spiritual progress' as second phase of 'sadhana' to

convert 'bhoga' into 'sukha' and 'sukha' into 'Ananda' ?

 

Let us talk practical. Let us not conclude so loosely the sacredness

behind Scriptures. Let us focus on proper 'discrimination' !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

------------------------

Hari Om

 

BHOGA ! as I understand from Gita is deriving happiness from

temporary elements ONLY because we perceive them to be permanent.

That is not because of EGO. The assumed affinity of the sentient

(the Self) and identification with the insentient (matter), is the

ignorance which leads to bhog. A bhogi (enjoyer of sense pleasures)

is one who tries to derive pleasure out of world. Ego is not under

illusion. Self due to it's identification with insentient is under

illusion. Ego (inert) is not the one that is enjoying or suffering !

Self due

to it's identification and assumed affinity becomes the enjoyer and

sufferer!

 

SELF is always there in ANANDA therefore. Self does not cease to

exist. Please understand what is Ego ! What is essential ego and

what is worldly ego . One must carefully read Gita 5:22 to

understand what is Bhoga !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

--------------------------

I am sorry, I missed couple of serious contentions from some readers

in my previous response. Let me address the same as I can:

 

How can Ego relinquish itself?

 

Let us see. Who needs to seek " freedom " ? One who is already free or

the one who thinks he is constrained? Obviously one who is in misery

need to seek the remedy - happiness. The one who suffers is the

insentient body-mind cluster. Who represents this? I call it ego

(you can call it individual, soul, etc.). The individual needs to

seek the liberation. What is the hurdle? The I-ness (identity) and

the mine-ness (ownership) - the ego in a collective sense. Who can

take any action? The insentient body-mind cluster. Who thinks that

he acts? The ego. Therefore, who can take an initiative to remove

the hurdle for attaining liberation? The ego. Again what is the

hurdle? The ego. Then, what is the obvious solution?? The ego

removing itself. That is called Sharanaagati or Surrender. It is the

so-called inert body-mind cluster that need to surrender and that

can surrender. The sentient neither needs to surrender nor it can.

The surrender means to me the cognizant acceptance from the ego of

the futility of its presence as well as its ownership on anything

and everything it knows. If it relinquishes its identity (I-ness)

and ownership (mine-ness), it is THAT as anything else is.

 

How can an inert thing like TRUE FREEDOM " itself " empower itself to

execute on its own ........?

 

The sentient (Purusha or Vaasudeva) is everything - that is the

hypotysis to start with. The insentient (Prakriti or body-mind

cluster) alone is involved in incessant purutrbations where as the

sentient remains unpurturbed is the corollary. The hypothesis and

the corrolary do not seem to jive well - the first says that the

first is everything, the other tries to establish a distinct

dominion for the second. What is making this fission in the

integrity of one's presence? Again the ego. If the hypothesis is

correct, ego also should be THAT only. How come it does not feel

that way? The corollary it has concocted in its perception. Being

spell-bound by its own web, the ego insists for separation wherever

it creeps in - be it actions, thoughts or experiences. It can

understand only one thing - separation or plurality! Its identity

whithers away if the fragmentation of the images it processes falls

apart. It looses its locus in the absence of I-ness and I-ness

looses its integrity in the absence of mine-ness … therefore, the

ego hangs on to the worldly relations and possessions desperately.

That is its ignorance - notion that its existence is dependent on

its identities and possessions. How can it " surrender " if this

continues? Only by empowering itself with the TRUE KNOWLEDGE that it

is what it is irrespective of identities and ownerships. Nobody else

can releive it from its own ignorance. It alone can help itself by

questioning the validity of its identities and possessions.

 

Uddhareduddharaatmaanam naatmaanamavasaadayet |

Aatmaiva hyaatmano bandhuh aatmaiva ripuraatmanah ||

 

The individual is its own enemy. Also, the only well-wisher it can

ever have is itself. (By nurturing the second aspect), it should not

let itself down into the miseries, but should empower itself to help

itself. When the all the relativities - identies and ownerships -

are removed, it remains in its pure essence - The Self, The

Absolute. Anything else also IS THAT only in its pure essence.

Attaining the purity by volition is referred here as " self-

empowerment " .

 

There are other ways to mend this ego - saama (by convincing), daana

(by offering good effects), bheda (by revealing the threats) and

danda (by pouring the dire consequences) - based on circumstantial

relativity. But, I personally consider all of them to be tentative

and their effect to be partial. Self awareness of The Reality is the

most fool-proof way to let ego relinquish itself completely – that

alone is worthy of being referred to as Tyaga, Renunciation.

 

Pratapji's reference to Vidyaranya Bharati's " Brahmanande

Vishayananda " is is very relevant … I recommend the fellow sadhaks

to study that seriously. To appreciate the Absolute Bliss in our

lives however we live is the clue for the Jeevanmukti whether we are

house-holders or anything else. Please study Vidyanaranya

Bharati's " Jeevanmukti Viveka " as well. Don't just read … please

study.

 

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

-----------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Clarification needed... We think it is terminology related

confusion... per our understanding, Ego is inert, and therefore not

the sufferer. " Atma " is " Self, Soul " and " Ahamkaar " is " Egoism " .

Sharanagati is at the " Swayam " / " Self " level, not at " Ego " level,

per our understanding. It is surrendering ourself !! Surrender to

Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness) in such a manner that only

Paramatma (Consciousness) remains. It could be vocabulory /

terminology that is in question.

 

Nagaji and all Sadhaks we kindly request BREVITY. It is easy for a

reader to get lost in words and lengthy explanations, with added

limitations of the mind to grasp. Thank you sincerely,

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

 

Dear Fellow Sadhakas!

 

ONE SINCERE REQUEST TO ALL …

 

So far, my clarifications have remained figments of my own

imaginations as I have never got to understand the true reasons for

the disagreements so far. Please make sure to evaluate and establish

why you disagree next time so that I will get an opportunity to

learn my ignorance thereupon; all sadhakas have that right upon

me. Keeping The Truth, nothing but The Truth, as the

ONLY basis in our criticism makes the debate more educational.

 

Deep Respects.

Naga Narayana

-------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Let us try stating facts / scriptures as we understand them without

being critical of other sadhaks, as our initial approach to

understanding the Truth. Let us know if you propose another

method. Sincerely, Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-------------------------

Radhey Radhey

 

Hmmh...!! So are we saying that .... once " me " is forgotten, all

become divine? It is still unclear the difference between Bhoga and

Sukha, please clarify?

 

Radhey Radhey

Nisha Chatterji

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Dear Rameshji,

 

Thank you very much by bringing out " Householder's immediate duty is

to protect the rights of those who happen to be close to the

individual as a result of family relationship " . As Swamiji Maharaj

points out in Sadhak Sanjivini that our duty is simply to perform

our duty, in a lovingly manner as an offering to God and our duty is

not to make a judgment about what is the duty of others and how well

they are performing it. An exception to this of course is our duty

towards our children, they have to be guided lovingly about their

duty. The best we can do is to set a good example -

(Ref: Gita 3-21)

yad-yad acharati shreshas, tad-tad eve'taro janah

sa yat pramnam kurute, lokas tad anuvartate

 

" For whatever a great man does is followed by others; people go by

the example he sets up "

 

Many times, the common family feud in today's life style happens to

be - demanding the RIGHTS but NOT DOING one's own individual duty.

The " Bagvaan " was a good Hindi movie illustrating this point.

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Humble pranams,

Madan Kaura

---------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Coming specifically again to the subject, I have no doubt that as

Respected Rameshji said- each one of us should focus only on " What

is my duty " . We must never look at what is other family member's

duty. It is a law that your duty is other's right. Karma Yoga

essentially requires you to perform your duties (meaning protect

other family members' rights) BUT renounce your rights (meaning

ignore other family members' duties towards you)

 

Swamiji vehemently advocated this while talking about a happy

gruhustha. This single trait is good enough to make us peaceful and

happy. A gruhustha indeed suffers mostly because of lack of this

trait/skill in him. Sadhak Narinder Bhandariji has indeed brought

out this in his own beautiful, lyrical way. Thanks

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-----------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I am glad to read Naga Narayanji's response in terms of

clarification of his last post which raised issues and questions on

some of our sadhak family. I was waiting for his own response first.

I understood his post in the spirit he conveyed the first time as

did the moderators. I hope his subsequent explanations clarifies

what he really meant.

 

In my words, I would put it like this.

 

The Absolute Beingness which is at the same time Consciousness

Supreme, IS Limitless, Non-Dual, Complete in Itself, and IS Bliss

Itself. It cannot be otherwise as it is its nature, and is the ONLY

REALITY of all our experiences not matter what types of experiences.

When we talk of Bhogas, and Sukhas, we are talking from Ego's point

of view, trying to fufill through the perceived/conceived objects of

the world, forgetting the Perceiver/Conceiver being Consciousness

itself, the very reason they are experienced. All objects thus

perceived are limited, and give only limited bhogas/sukhas, the

absence of which give pains.

However, even in temporary sense pleasures or bhogas/sukhas, the

happiness felt is only due to Consciousness (being devoid of sense

of " me " in those moments), essential condition, so to speak. There

is a chapter in Panchdashi(Prakarana Grantha) by Swami Vidyaranyaji,

ch 15, " Brahmanande Vishayananda " , The Bliss of objects, where the

messge is conveyed that there is an intrinsic relationship between

worldly pleasures and Divine Happiness, the later being the original

and the former its distortion due to artificial limitations. The

implications of this is that if one is intelligent enough to

recognize this connection, the world of objects becomes Divine, and

would not appear as objects of selfish enjoyments implied in

Sukhas/Bhogas.

Besides, temporary pleasures derived from Alcohol or other such

entertainments requiring senses/body/mind have adverse effect on

physical and mental health. Thus Viveka is required. But what could

be better than to be able to see Divinity even in mundane things

with such understanading? Besides where else can you see God if not

in the world itself?

" me " can see only objects, its absence sees those very objects as

God.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Shri Krishna

Our duty is only that which, for those who are close to us, or

otherwise, doing for them according to our capability/ability, what

ever their rights are on us as per the scriptures. Just like the

father's duty is to make his children qualified, capable and worthy.

And whatever are the rights of the child, those become the duty of

the father. When everyone fulfills their duties, then everyone's

rights are automatically protected, and it will be the creation of a

wonderful society. Regarding duties, whatever standards are

established and prescribed in the scriptures, that alone must be

done. These are the same sentiments that have been expressed by

words of Saints - Swami Shri Sharananandji Maharaj and also in Swami

Maharaj's (Swami Ramsukhdasji's) Sadhak Sanjeevani.

 

Duty is that alone in which there is benefit / gain / well-being of

the other. It is never a duty to do what is harmful to others. To

do what is harmful or leading to someone's downfall can never be our

duty.

 

Keeping these words in mind then in whatever be your stage in life,

the varna you are in, all those that are around you will remain ever

happy with you.

 

Your servant, Ramesh (Sadhak Ramesh)

 

IN HINDI

 

Hamare liye Kartvya vahi hai,jo hamare nikatvarti hai,dur ke

hai..unka yathayogya,shastra anukul jo adhikar hai,unko pura

karna.jaise ki pati ka kartavya hai ki balako ko yogya banaye aur jo

pita ka kartavya hai,vahi balak ka adhikar hai.sab apane apane

kartavya ka palan karenge to sabke adhikar ki raksha ho jayegi aur

sunder samaj ka nirman hoga.Kartavya ke bare me praman shastra ki jo

agya hai vahi karna hai.aisa santvani me swami shre Sharnanadji

Maharaj Aur swamiji Maharaj ke bhi Sadhak Sanjeevni me yahi bhav

hai.Kartavya vahi hota hai ,jisase dusare ka hit ho,bhala ho.kabhi

dusare ka ahit,bura karna kartavya nahi ho sakta hai.yeh bate dhyan

me rakhate huye aap chahe koi bhi ashram ,varn me ho ...palan karo

to sada aap aur aapke nikatvarti samaj aanand me rahega.

 

Aapka Dass, Ramesh (Sadhak Ramesh)

 

----------------------

Dear sadaks,

Gruham is house- Astha the person who is in charge of house and its

inmates, providing them shelter, food, and most importantly teaching

his dependants Dharma sastras, Puranas Etc. The householder himself

must be well learnt to guide his family in right way. Such a person

should live purely without attachments, dutybound acting with

doership surrendered to God mentally and physically. Once he marries

his children away, he should opt for Vanaprastam. He is Karma Yogi

as Bagavan said and as said by Vyasji

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Brother Mike Keenor indeed referred to the end result of all yogas

particularly for a household- entire world as a family. That is the

nectar flowing from a sadhak always speaking from his soul. Sadhak

Pratapji and Shashikalajee have already built upon the same ,

beautifully, in their last messages, hence I have very little to

offer.

 

But I must say that this is how all yogas end their journeys call

it , " sarvabhoot hite rata " (BG 12:4) for Jnana Yogis or " Vasudevah

Sarvam " (BG 7:19) for a Bhakti Yogi, what to say of a Household

(Karma Yogi) where entire world is a family for him. SARVA

BANDHUTVAM (Brotherhood of All ).

 

The consideration that " this one is a kinsman and this one is not "

is of persons who have mean mind. But for persons possessing

a 'noble' behaviour, the intellect is quite free from

coverings/restraints- and that is achieved by resolution : There is

no place where I am not; there is nothing which is not mine. All

classes are indeed our kinsmen. None whatever of these beings are

very much unconnected to us.

 

Yes Mike ! How indeed at the end of road and at the door steps of

the 'Beloved', there can be that understanding, 'this is kinsman and

this is a stranger ', of the SELF who is existing in oneness and is

all pervading ?

 

Yes, but the bottle must also break first, as Shashikalajee told so

that first " mineness " with 'others' dissolves fully and then emerges

out of that renunciation(service/sacrifice) Peace and from peace

comes out again the mineness with the all pervading 'Divine' ! MERE

TO GIRDHAR GOPAL !! (Only God is Mine) There is no " doosara " (other)

thereafter. Service has destroyed the mineness with the 'other' .

There is no SARVAM now ! There is ONLY VASUDEVA !! There is

no " doosara na koi " , there is ONLY , " MERE TO GIRDHAR GOPAL " !!

 

Amen, Brother !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------------

 

I apologize for the lapse in communication of the message in an

" appealing way " raising anger in some. Apparently, we are thinking in

two different languages! But, my request is, PLEASE DO NOT THROW THE

STONES EVERYWHERE IN YOUR ANGER. The moderators as well as the forum

has nothing to do with it. It is me who has caused ... and hence, aim

the stones at the cause. If there is any blame, that is mine. Pl. do

not give credit of that to anybody else :).

 

Somebody has advised me to use the word " peace " rather than

" happiness " . Tathaastu. Amen. I will. Any other word is also fine ...

I have no problem.

 

Some felt that Bhoga, Sukha, Ananda etc are treated the same in the

message. No! All referring to one's attitude behind one's action can

never be the same. Let me re-iterate, the perceptions are not the

same, but the essence is. In fact, the essence of anything and

everything is the same. Vaasudevah Sarvam.

 

Some objections that the message had no relevance to house-holder ...

Sorry for assuming that it was implicit ...

 

Somehow some have extracted a notion that " taking drugs is OK " from

the message! I am baffled as well as apolegitic for such grossly

unintended meaning being grasped :(. What was intended was that " even

respectful activities such as Bhajan, meditation, and even Samadhi

could be practiced as Bhoga if we believe these are responsible for

the the ever-present absolute ... let us be alert in our practices.

As a house-holder one need to be extra-cautious due to the

expectations from the

family and society " :

 

Na karmanaam anaarambhaan naishkarmyam purusho'shnute |

Na cha sanyasanaadeva siddhim samadhigacchhati ||

 

We can talk on this for years and centuries and millineums ... and

yet the communication will falter as we insist for familiarity in the

expressions ... If you disagree, feel free. Being angry ... think

about it.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

All seem to strongly agree that " Ananda " or " Peace " is Absolute ...

and yet strongly insist that many things should be excluded from

That! That baffles me. Ananda (not the word, but the essence

referred to) IS

Absolutely Absolute - Vasudevah Sarvam. THAT is everything being all-

inclusive.

Then it has to be any word as such. It has to be any thing as such.

I cannot

fathom how anything in this world can be excluded from the happiness

that we are

referring to! Your agreement is also THAT. Your disagreement as

well. Your anger

as well!

 

Vidyaa-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi hastini |

Shuni chaiva shvapaake cha ... aanando'nanda eva hi ||

 

Everything is, in fact, entitled for the happiness equally - be that

a great scholar, a great saint, a great truth seeker, an animal such

as cow or

elephant or a dog, or be that a dog eater ... happiness is

happiness as such. I cannot claim any right on the happiness " more "

irrespective of what I do or think. I know that I am entitled for the

happiness as anything else in this world is. There cannot be anything

in this world other than THAT, The Truth which is often referred to

by various words such as happiness, peace, absolute, truth, bliss,

etc. I

consider it to be the greatest ignorance if I consider any specific

word to be

singularly adequate to mean THAT.

 

The words are NOT there to mean The Absolute ... but to mean what we

perceive. After all, any word is nothing but a figment of our

cognition only! Therefore, we shall revisit the words Bhoga, Sukha

and Ananda again. For communication sake, following is what they

represent for me:

 

Bhoga: The notion of happiness is projected on to a perceived

entity - substance, action, perception or experience. Even if one

attains happiness through Samadhi, if the beleif is that the

happiness is established in Samadhi, I consider that notion or

attitude as Bhoga only. The objects of body, mind and desire

dominate the belief here.

THIS IS THE WORST STATE OF ONE'S ATTITUDE. I am baffled how anybody

could get a contrary meaning out of it?!

 

Sukha: The notion of happiness claimed by an individual. Even if it

is claimed by a saint, my considerations remain the same. On positive

side, it promotes individual independence while it can also promote

pride on its negative side. The subject dominates the belief here.

Again it is a limited state as one's perception dominates. I am again

confused how people could mix-up what was expressed from two distinct

angles - one from individual attitude and another from transcendental

perception.

 

Ananda: Just being happy where happiness remains just happiness. As a

matter of fact, any pure objective presence where every object is

treated as itself and the subject as itself without any imposed

qualities is also THAT only. No subject, no object, no beliefs ...

but just THAT remains. Though the word is conceived in one's

cognition, what is meant her is " transcendental " . That is The

Absolute presence of reference here. Therefore, everything is Ananda

only from transcendental perception.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

I have difficulty in understanding how The Absolute can be viewed

with any filter - be it a word, or a concept or a theory or objects

or even the whole universe. THAT cannot be trapped in anything ...

yet, THAT is everything as such. In other words, if we look at

everything objectively without any trace of subjective notions, we

are always happy because we are THAT. THAT IS THE VALUE FOR THE

HOUSEHOLDER, OR AS A MATTER FACT, FOR ANYONE ELSE AS SUCH.

 

Karma brahmodbhavam viddhi brahmakshara samudbhavam |

Tasmaat sarvagatam brahma nityam yagnye pratishthitam ||

 

Everything (though the actions are in context here) " is " THAT and yet

none can " get " or " have " THAT. The value of the appreciation of our

ignorance in our appreciation of life - distinction between Bhoga,

Sukha and Ananda in our perception - is of paramount importance to

realize the unity beneath everything (including the notions of

pleasures, happiness, bliss, etc.) in our natural presence (Sahaja

Sthiti). If one (including a house-holder) involves in the daily

activities naturally, The Bliss is revealed in the very presence

irrespectively.

 

THE PURPOT IS, ALL VARIATIONS REMAIN WITHIN THE IMAGINATIONS

(NOTIONS,

EMOTIONS, RELATIONS) OF THE PERCEIVER (THE EGO) ... NOT IN THE MERE

PRESENCE OF ANYTHING (INCLUDING THE EGO).

 

Therefore, nobody need to worry whether they are in right

circumstances for receiving the abundance of happiness (be it a

house-holder or anybody else). If we let ourselves " be " what we are

while letting everything else as they " are " we are always happy. If

we try " get " or " have " anything including our own identities, we are

doomed to suffer. Nobody has strength to " get " or " have " happiness -

not even gods let alone great saints and scholars. Everybody is

entitled to " be " happy as they are no matter who it is ... be a dog

or a dog eater ... does not matter.

 

RELEVANCE: DUTY FOR A HOUSE-HOLDER (FOR EVERYONE ELSE AS WELL) IS TO

NURTURE OBJECTIVITY IN LIFE. RESPECT EVERYTHING AS THAT.

 

Happiness IS just happiness ... Truth IS just truth ... anything IS

just anything ... no matter how we attempt to look at things around.

The beleif that what we see is completely representative of what is

seen is THE IGNORANCE that is the cause of all miseries. As a

house-holder (let me make this explicit as some have difficulty in

potential irrelevance of the statements here), as well as anybody

else, the ONE AND ONLY FOOL-PROOF way to be happy is to let ourselves

be involved in the actions presented to us naturally showing no trace

of hesitance.

 

Karma brahmodbhavam viddhi ... no matter what ...

 

RELEVANCE: DUTY FOR A HOUSE-HOLDER (FOR EVERYONE ELSE AS WELL) IS TO

RESIST DEVELOPING NOTIONS ON ANYTHING FUELING THE INHERENT TENDENCIES

OF LIKES AND DISLIKES.

 

Jitaatmanah prashaantasya paramaatmaa samaahitah |

Sheetoshnasukhaduhkheshu tathaa maanaavamaanayoh ||

 

Again, we can talk on this for years and centuries and milleniums ...

and yet the communication will falter as we insist for familiarity in

the expressions ... If you disagree, feel free. Being angry ... think

about it.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Just a few 'principles/laws' from Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj . The

Question of these ever failing does not arise :

 

1 Service destroys Mamata (mineness)

 

2 When you provide happiness to others , your own desire for

enjoyment reduces. Desire is gross form of Ego !

 

3 You can't renounce what belongs to you. You can only renounce that

which is continuousy renouncing you.

 

4 Either, When you serve, just don't consider the servicee to be

yours ! Alnernately, serve those who you don't consider to be

me/mine. Result is same.

 

5 Bhog and Sangrah - Consumption and Accumulation of worldly things-

is not allowing you to realise God !

 

6 A grihastha renounces 'enjoyership' (fruits of actions) first. He

acts with 'doership' in him. Renunciation of fruits of action

destroys effortlessly the 'doership' as a law ! In case of Jnana

Yoga, sadhak first renounces 'doership' ! Renunciation of 'doership'

destroys effortlessly 'enjoyership' as a law ! The world is nothing

except " doing " and " enjoying/suffering " !!

 

7 World is not the place at all for pleasures or pains. For

pleasures (bhog) , go to heaven. For pains go to hell. For mixed, be

bird/animal/tree etc But once you are human, rise above them.

 

8 When you renounce, however/with whatever attitude, peace will

generate in you ! Ego takes a beating with every disconnection.

 

9 Discrimination (Viveka) is God given advisor to you. Respect it.

 

A grihastha (householder) whose primary sadhana comprises

of 'doing' , should not worry excessively about 'doership' or the

false notion that it fuels ego ! No- such notions are 'evils in the

garb of good' !! He should renounce 'enjoyership' of results.

Doership goes later on automatically/effortlessly by operation of

Divine Laws.

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

-------------------------

 

Gruhastha means a householder. In other words a married man. The

head of the household has a duty to see to the well being of his

family and to do everything he can to see that they are looked after

well. Afterwards he has a duty towards society especially those who

suffer due to poverty or ill health. If he serves them then he is

serving God as well as because they are also God's creations.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

---------------------------

.. " When the self is known……. All is known , " This is the highest

understanding to be imbibed by a sadhaka.

 

2.Effort for Self realization, thus, is the highest sadhana .

 

3.If the self is realized ……….. all the questions get answered from

within oneself . The duties of a Pativrata, the duties of a

Householder ( Pati), the duties towards each amongst the various

members of the family ………. happen to get understood , and expressed

in action, spontaneously , by the knowers of truth…… by the self

realized .

 

But …………………..

 

4.Self realization is not easy. It does not even occur to most

people, as the primary purpose of Life. So, in the family, it will

seldom be that even one member would be self realized ……… All would

be what they are ……….. egos evolving at their own pace and according

to their own choices …………. And, in this age of Kaliyuga …………… there

is naught but the ego in manifestation everywhere ……

 

And…………..

 

5.The family is the smallest unit of society. The values that the

society wishes to be practised within itself , have to begin as

practise within the Family. The values practised within the family

will automatically get practised in the society.

 

6.The family and Society are deeply linked. If the Family

practises Dharma, the society will be a Dharmic society. If the

society encourages Dharma, and is Dharmic, the family too will have

a tendency to live the life of Dharma .

 

7.Keeping the above in view, for harmonious living , wherein the

highest values get lived and practised in action, the Rishis and

Munis , the realized ones, laid down the Principles of Dharma( the

Sanatana Dharma ) as also the duties to be practised by the various

members of the family, beginning with the Pativrata Dharma and the

Patnivrata Dharma, Vrata means ............... self-imposed

discipline for the sake of self evolution. Discipline is defined as

self-imposed sacrifice of ego for the larger Good of the greater

number . Discipline is the sacrifice , in which all benefit and

achieve their individual goals .

 

8.Now, the Family comprises of the pati, the patni, the progeny.

 

It would not need much intelligence to logically arrive at the

conclusion that harmony we seek within our own selves must begin as

expression within the family; and, it can only be so, if all the

members know their duties and responsibilities towards each other,

and these duties should occur from within each member so as to be

expressed in action spontaneously, easily and lovingly .

 

But, as we said earlier ……… that is only possible , if every member

is self realized . From this , it becomes easy to arrive at the

conclusion that the first duty of each member is self -

realisation.

 

9.But, the family comprises of husband , wife and children. And, the

children would only follow what their parents do. THUS, both husband

and wife must have their first duty as the realisation of the

self .

 

Ha !

 

Now comes the rub . Where do things go wrong ? Things go wrong,

because the husband focuses only on what duties the wife should be

performing . The wife focuses only on what she should get out of the

husband , what his duties are !...... No-one focuses on Duty as

kartavaya ( One's own duty lovingly performed so as to please God

and thus move into self realization ) And, thus we find around us

today, turmoil in every home, discord in every home, with husband

and wife constantly at each others throats, and children rebelling

and even abusing their parents .

 

10. The way to self –realisation is given in various Upanishads ,

granthas, puranas, smritis, bhagvatam, and so on. Bhagvada Geetha is

the quintiscence of all the Upanishads .

 

11.It would be logical to say …. That a wise sadhaka would try to

walk the shortest, obstacle-less path to self-realization.

 

12.And for the true Sadhaka, there are three very valuable

scriptures ( amongst scores more ), which show the way to self

realization. These are the Bhagvada Geetha , the Ashtang Yoga sutras

of Patanjali, and the Vivekachudamani by Shankra. All the three are

complete and competent in themselves to lead the sadhaka to the

ultimate fulfillment . At the same time …. they compliment each

other , and are not exclusive of the other. But, it is best for the

sadhaka to stick to anyone of them for walking the Path

assiduousally , under the guidance of a self-realised Guru , if

possible .The importance of a Guru can never be over-emphasised .

 

Ah, friends, if we want to bring joy, happiness and true progress

within the society, it will have to be by clearly understanding

that practice of the discipline for self realization will have to be

by defining the duties of the husband and wife clearly towards each

other , and through the understanding that these duties are self-

imposed for the evolution of the self so as to realize God in

this very lifetime.

 

All creativity in Nature is the outcome of two principles, the male

principle and the female principle. These principles govern even

the insentient creation. But, when the evolution brings us to

sentience , the intelligence given to human beings by God or

Existence was to to reach the pinnacle of achievement ……. God

realization ……… and society living as Gods . This is Dharma. The

principal players in this are a man and woman , and the unit is the

family. Discipline will have to begin with these two players . The

discipline will have to be practiced by the wife and the husband for

the sake of their own self . The Bhagvada Geetha is the guide to

discipline , the practice of the thirty attributes given in

Chapter 13, irrespective of whether one is the wife , or a husband.

BUT, we will also have to devise the individual Dharma of the

husband and wife toward each other , This the ancient rishis and

munis did ……. But today, the wife and the husband both flout it ,

and fight regarding its veracity. The husband of today does not

understand that he is responsible to respect the woman and, the wife

of today refuses to set an example to her children in love sacrifice

and obedience, even though both carry on reciting the ancient

mantras " matri devo bhava, pitri devo bhava, acharya devo bhave,

atithi devobhava "

 

Every wife and mother is enchanted by the mantra ` matri-devo

bhava'………… but is reluctant to be a great mother .

 

Every father would like to be worshipped in accordance with the

Mantra ` pitri-devo-bhava'……….. but may not wish treat his parents

worshipfully.

 

And what about the mantra , we used to hear a few decades ago …………'

pati devo bhava `………. We hear of it no more …………..

 

Nobody is to be blamed ………….. neither man , nor woman ………… it is

the march of time ……….

 

Everyone shouts at the other to practice the same values , which one

oneself refuses to practice.

 

The family, the vey womb of Dharma is breaking up if not already

broken. But there is still the great Hope for revival. Out of the

awareness of the evil of Adharma all around ,Dharma now is becoming

an individual quest. Perhaps, one day again, soon, out of this

individual self-realisation, the family will , once again, come

together ; but, it will then again be a Dharmic wife and a Dharmic

husband, and their progeny worshipping their parents …….. so that

all may fulfill the purpose of Life , God- Realisation.

 

A Golden age of Dharma may yet come again…………. may be not in our

lifetime, maybe not even in this yuga( for, when this happens, we

would not be able to call it kaliyuga , it will become

Satyuga ,,,,,,,,,,, ) ………….. God only knows .All is His Will. The

movement of Time and Space, is itself God's Will.

 

Ah, dear sadhakas, who so do choose…………… let us continue with our

sadhna .

 

Ah, where were we …? Bhagvada Geetha ……….. chapter ….. shaloka ….. ?

 

AUM narinder bhandari

-------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Narinderji, Please kindly be concise in future postings. Thank

you, From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

 

--------------------------

Dear Sadak Sri Madan Kaura,

I very happily accept your correction. What is true is to be

corrected is our Dharma. It is not Kunthi but Droupati who forgave.

Such quality comes from the persons with whom one is associated.

Droupati association with Sri Krishna.

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Grihastha (Household) is a place where by serving 'others' a person

must strive to get freedom from the ocean of birth and death. When

you 'serve' invariably your desire (gross form of ego) takes a hit.

Grihasthas therefore MUST use 'viveka'- discrimination frequently in

day to day life.

 

Trees also live; and so do animals and birds. He alone lives (in

essence) whose mind is alive by reflection. One must in Grihastha

(household) inculcate 'good qualities' in him. Human life itself and

in that too the ashram of 'grihastha' provides you opportunity of

being 'noble' . One must never drop 'nobleness' in him. NEVER !

Human life is given to renounce Bhog/sukha/happiness not to seek it.

Real happiness lies in sacrifice/renunciation. Peace emerges out of

renunciation( BG 12:12 ) . Trust Scriptures only, as Madanji Kaura

said.

 

Those who shun nobleness or contemplate dropping them are aged asses-

carrying burdens only. The scriptures is a burden for one without

discrimination; knowledge is a burden for the passionate(bhogi) ;

mind is a burden for one WITHOUT PEACE,( for one who does not

renounce or sacrifice worldly pleasures/possessions in favour of

family members/ others/world at large) and the body is a burden for

one who does not know SELF or tries to erase/forget his true

identity. For such people, without discrimination, the mind runs in

vain from here and from there perplexed, just as a dog from distance

to a greater distance in a village.

 

In Grihastha (household) therefore one has excellent opportunity of

deriving PEACE by merely renunciation of his own happiness and

possessions in favour of family members/ world at large.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

For every sadhak " household " is a challenge. Here he has to " do " !

How to be a " great doer " ? Read Scriptures to know that, as

suggested by Sadhak Madanji Kaura !

 

He is called a great 'grihashtha' (householder):-

 

1 Who performs duties prescribed by the scriptures according to

circumstances, with a mind free from doubt or fear.

 

2 Who assumes indifferently, love and hate, pleasure and pain,

likeable or unlikeable works, and fruit/reward and its absence

 

3 Who acts with his excitement/anxiety gone, who is possessed of

silence, free from egotism, stainless and is one who has given up

jeolousy.

 

4 Whose mind is mind is not stained by bad or improper doubt in

considerations of right and wrong in good and bad actions

 

5 Who neither regrets nor rises in his mood due to a pure and even

mind and is free from excitement and joy.

 

6 Who undertaking action and non-action and doership, remaining

indifferent , becomes exceedingly even internally.

 

7 Who , passing through weal and woe, does not indeed give up his

equanimity, and is calm by his very nature

 

8 Whose mind is quite even in circumstances of birth, existence,

death and among objects having rise and fall.

 

9 WHO SERVES, SERVES and SERVES to those people whom he

considers " mine " with those things which he considers to be " mine " -

thus relinquishes what is " mine " and thereby kills the very shelter

of " mineness " - the ME or I-ness !!

 

There is no doubt that all creatures, of whatever nature, strive

only for happiness. So does a 'householder'. Here

the 'discrimination' (viveka) plays vital role. He must distinguish

between Bhoga/happiness and Ananda/Bliss. Scriptures distinguish

categorically. Why? Because it is vital to do ! We must understand

the difference between temporary and permanent, real and unreal,

relative and absolute. When Sadhaks do so, with the help of Viveka,

then surely ugliness will be seen by them among the lovely; non

being on top of being; impermanence will be observed among the

permanence, and unreality among the seemingly real objects.

 

Bhogas ( seemingly real but actually unreal- objects of pleasure and

enjoyment of objects of sense) are only the expanded hoods of,

Kaliya Naga (SERPENT) referred in Scriptures (Shreemad Bhagavatam)

during description of Shree Krishna Leela . They just sting when

touched a little.

 

Which wise men and more particularly which SADHAK should take

delight in those Bhogas, under disguise of Ananda, which bhogas are

likes the shades of umbrellas in the form of exhanded hoods of

Nagas - serpents ? No one should, in fact. Never a grihastha , never

a sadhak, never a human being. NEVER !

 

And THUS mineness gets destroyed, and THUS as suggested by Brother

Mike entire world becomes a large family. You (water) can perceive

ocean only when you (it) come (s) out of small water pot !! Hence

serve first those who you consider " me/mine " . That breaks the

bottle !!

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Ram Ram

 

Last night I was hearing SATSANG of MAHARAJ JI of the day of Since

April-1991, that time there is a bright way in my mind that is WHAT

IS GEETA? MEANING OF GEETA? please rectify my mistake about above

question.

 

If there is a single mistake or wrong question then please " MUJE

BHOLA JAAN KE MAAF KAR DENA " " Consider me to be ignorant / innocent

and Forgive

me " according to MAHARAJ JI ( 18 April-

1991's satsang)

 

 

Jag Mohan

--------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

JAGAT BHAR KI ROSHNI KE LIYE, KARODO KI JINDAGI KE LIYE ..... SOORAJ

RE JALATE RAHNA !!

 

For spreading light in the dark universe, giving life to all , O

Sun .... Kindly keep burning !!

 

Words can never express our gratitude to all sadhaks in this forum.

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Tyaag / Bhog / Tapasya / Grihastha / Sin / Virtue !!

 

With permission of this Divine Forum Moderators , I would like to

narrate 'real life' description of aforesaid terms. Read it with

reference to 'Kaliyuga' trends and BG 18:32. Slightly long , but I

hope it will serve many : I got married very early and my Hubby then

was only 17 and me 15. He is very sharp but once we saw a movie

called 'Chitralekha'. There was one ' Kalyugi' song in that -

absolutely appeared even to the best of minds as Bhajan. My

hubby 'acted' on that temporarily and after paying penalty and upon

coming in touch with Swamiji , in early 80s , he realised grave

error. That is what Swamiji called 'evil in the garb of good' .

Reproducing that 'bhajan' to Sadhaks so that they may never get

enticed to the juiciness of the same:

 

SANSAAR SE BHAGE PHIRATE HO BHAGWAAN KO TUM KYAA PAOGE ! IS JANAM KO

BHI APNA NA SAKE, US JANAM MAIN BHI PACHHTAOGE !!

 

You are running away from the world, how will you get God? You are

not able to enjoy this world properly, you will repent up there

(after death) also.

 

YEH BHOG BHI EK TAPASYA HAI, TUM TYAAG KE MARE KYAA JANO! APMAAN

RACHIYATA KA HOGA, RACHNA KO AGAR THUKRAOGE !!

 

This 'bhog' (consumption of worldly pleasures- say alcohol) is also

an austerity. You are not able to appreciate it because of pre

conceived notion of " renunciation/sacrifice " . You shall be

insulting the Creator , if you reject/renounce His creation !!

 

HAM KAHATE HAIN YEH JAG APNA HAI, TUM KAHATE HO JHOOTHA SAPANA HAI !

HAM JANAM BITAA KAR JAYENGE, TUM JANAM GAVAA KAR JAOGE!!

 

I say that this world is " mine " . You say that this world is false

and dream. I will win and live in this world and then die, you will

lose in this world and then die.

 

YEH PAAP HAI KYAA YEH PUNYA HAI KYAA, REETO PAR DHARAM KI MOHARE

HAIN ! HAR YUG MAIN BADALATE DHARMO KO KAISE ADARSH BANAAOGE !!

 

What is " paap " (sin) ? What is " punya " ( virtue). They are only

rituals on which there is a stamp of 'dharma'. How can you idolise

that 'dharma' which changes in every 'yuga' (changes with time) ?

 

Hubby carried these lines to his heart. Once he asked Swamiji- Sir

everything has been made by God, why not consume it? Do we not

insult Creator if we reject creation? The Great Swamiji replied- God

has made poison also, stool also, will you eat it? He became

speechless !! That changed him ! Today he says each and every line

of this song is wrong !

 

That is how evil comes in the garb of good, Divine Sadhaks in this

Kaliyuga !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

Hari Om

 

As per my experience a Karma Yogi sheds his ego automatically by

serving others so much so that in the end 'server', 'servicee'

and 'service' all three become one element. 'Good qualities' in a

human are the part of his very natural self and are never required

to be renounced- be it tyaag (sacrifice/renunciation) or forgiveness

or compassion , or tolerance or truthfulness, or humility or non

violence -they all are 'divine properties' - the very nature of

Paramatma ! Can Sun renounce light? I agree with Brother Mike- ego

can't be killed with ego- never ! It is only

sacrifice/renunciation/tyaag of " mineness " that kills ego and of

course the grace of Paramatma to the surrendered devotee. What kind

of ego a mom carries while feeding her children?

 

I agree with Madanji Kaura. We must act as per Scriptures. Only

Scriptures are the proof or the yardsticks of ideal conduct.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Shree Hari

 

Dear Sathyanarayanji

 

Minor correction - In your Mahabharat example - Arjuna brings

Ashwathama to Draupadi and not to Kunti.

 

Thank you for beautiful illustrations, they are indeed very

inspiring and fitting to the duty of the householder. Nothing

personal, would like to share a common observation - in few

instances, there have been great responses from our learned scholars

in Gita-talk forum but at times, the question at hand has not been

specifically addressed. Our moderators have been very patient about

this. Pls. forgive me for being so blunt about this observation,

kindly take my comments in a constructive way only.

 

Thanks to Gee Waman for posing a good question -

 

WHAT IS HOUSEHOLDER'S DUTY ACCORDING TO GITAJI?

 

In this particular setting, as a Kshatriya, Arjuna's duty is to

fight the war, protect the masses from the unrighteousness rule.

Depending upon the setting, circumstances and the situation at hand,

the individual's duty does vary, Arjuna too is a householder, in

household circumstances he will be playing a different role, his

duty would not be fighting the war. But the principles outlined in

our scriptures do apply: the householder's duty is described broadly

in Gitaji much in detail in many verses but for the sake of brevity,

following few are referenced here:

 

Gita: (2/ 31-38), (2/48),

(3/8-9) (3-19), (3-21), (3-35),

(16/24)

 

Gita 2-38

" :sukhadukhe same krtva, labhalabhau jayajayau

tato yudhaya yujsave, nai 'vam papam avapsyasi "

 

Meaning:

Treating alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat,

get ready for the fight (Arjuna's duty in this setting), then,

fighting thus you will not incur sin.

 

Gita 2-48

" yogasthah kuru karmani, sangam tyaktva dhanamjaya

sidhyasidhyoh samo bhutva, samatvam yoga ecyate "

 

Meaning:

Established in Yoga, perform your duty O Dhanamjaya (Arjuna),

abandoning attachment, being even-minded in success and failure;

even-mindedness is called Yoga.

 

Gita 3-19

" tasmad asaktah satatam, kayam karma samacara

asakto hy acaran karma, param apnoti purushah "

 

Meaning:

Therefore, always efficiently do your duty without attachment. Doing

work without attachment, man attains the Supreme.

 

Gita 16-24

" tasmac chastram pramanam te, karyakaryavasthitau

jnatva sastravidhanoktam, karma karatum iha 'rhasi "

 

Meaning:

Therefore, let the scripture be your authority in determining what

ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Knowing this, you

should act only in accordance with the sanction of scripture.

 

Humble regards,

Madan Kaura

---------------------------

Simple answer could be....

 

To know your true self and help everyone around i.e. family and

friends

in knowing themselves.....while doing (without the doer ship)

everything else......

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

 

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear sadaks,

Scarifies--When Sri Rama asked to give away his throne to Bharat,

Puraan says HIS face was like just flowered lotus and brightness on

HIS face. The message was from Kaykeyi (Step mother) not from

Dasarath who actually said. Sri Rama never even verified the order

from Dasarath. Means sacrifies not done with benefit or done

knowingly (Sri Rama was not knowing the act was sacrifies). The best

part was when Sri Rama returned from forest HE first went to the

hunch back lady who spoilt Kaikeyi mind. DEAR SADAKS, kaikeyi mind

got corupted because of desire (which is ongoing discussion) of her

son. There is a saying Do Dharma with one hand let not the other

hand know. Concept of Sacrifies. A small iota thought of the action

in mind is enough to bring Ego in sacrifies.

 

Jesus crucified knows body soul are differant. If someone feels

happy in crucifing the body HE was silent. HE said, " Nothing happens

without the will of my Father " . So the action of sacrifies was not

owned by Jesus, the action owned by HIS father. Before dying HE

said, " Oh father in heavens let them be spared as they know not what

they are doing " . So the action of the crucifer was also disowned by

Jesus, which in turn disowned in mind level.

Five Bala Pandavas was slined by Aswathama after the war. Sri

Krishna and Arjuna catches Aswathama brings to Kunthi. She says let

Aswathama go since he is Guru`s son. Kunthi sacrifies was a concept.

Sadaks know Baktha Gora pot maker. His enimies broke his pots to

bits whitch he was carrying by cart for sale. He started picking the

bits from floor. The enemies asked whether he was mad. He replied

the bits mat hurt the passer by, so he is clearing the way. Pots was

sacrifice and picking denotes forgiveness. Both action were not even

in mind level Same Gora due to quarrel with his wife who said not to

touch her there after. Gora was NO way different from daily

household and in showing affection to his wife, but remained

untouched living in same bed room. Just a word from his wife in

anger not to touch her, he sacrificed his years of life which we

call it happiness.

 

Buddha walking for bath. Some said abusive language. He actually

forgot then and there, but his disciples reminded him. Buddha said

when did that happened. Mind level forgiveness which not owned. So

was Sri Rama, when some one asked forgivness for their misbehaviour

HE used to say " When it happened " . We store everything in our mind

to full extent, leaving no place for Bagavan WHO keeps on saying

leave it to ME (Surrender). Same thing said, in Christianity, " Empty

thyself, I will fill it " . We wont empty for Sri Krishna to come in,

still I hear from some sadaks, " Is God gone on holidays when I am

sufferings " .

 

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

On Ashokji's comments:

It is equally possible that acts of sacrifice and that of empathy

both can boost ego or both may not necessarily boost ego, depending

on the inner postures while acting.

As I understand it, Happiness is not contrary to anything or anyone,

as in Happiness there is " nobody " that is happy, is totally devoid

of " me " . It just is That, Happiness!

Our true nature, upon realization, is experienced as Happiness-

Bliss itself. It is welcoming Presence in us which welcomes

sacrifices with joy. It says " yes " to everything arising/appearing

in it, the reason why they arise/appear in the first place.

Sometimes doing things for others can also strengthen ego if in

thoughts " doer " creeps up while doing.

Forgiveness is the greatest virtue in practical life, sure. But in

forgiving if " forgiver " , disguised " me " shows up to forgive

the " other " , it may not make us peaceful, but can boost ego.

Forgiving, to me, is to overlook, or look over ego in others and

give understanding. It is to see that the person is not bad but

his/her acts are so, due to ignorance.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

 

Raam! Raam!!

 

We are all grateful to GT Moderators for sheer service being

rendered to humanity through management of this divine web site.

With reference to the topic under discussion , however, may I state

that for the first time I saw them agreeing to a totally wrong

statements. Since it is very dangerous from 20000 + sadhak point

of view hence I must point out. Consider the following:

 

" As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES.. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH AS HAPPINESS and ANAND AS BLISS. In your response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators) "

 

What does it clarify? How spirituality is bi-modal in nature? HOW

CAN EGO ITSELF RELINQUISH ITS CHERISHED I -ness or mineness? Answer

me ! How can Ego relinquish itself ? What are natural agents,

substantial agents, social agents, psychological agents ? What was

wrong in considering Happiness and Sukh as worldly and Anand as

Bliss to be the goal of each of us? Why we should equate them so

casually? How can an inert thing like TRUE FREEDOM " itself " empower

itself to execute on its own ........?

 

Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's beliefs is deceit and

hypocracy. ( WHAT BEHAVIOUR ? WHOSE BELIEF? ) /

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. ( WHY ONE SHOULD NOT

BECOME SPECIFIC? WHY ONE SHOULD NOT BECOME SADHAK? HOW ANYTHING WE

DO IS OK? DRUG ADDICTS ARE OK? )

 

Shyama C

-------------------------------

Radhey Radhey

 

Sadhak Sushilji ! I am happy you covered yourself quickly against a

difficult note which you wrote that " Sacrifice and Happiness are

contrary " . I agree fully with your explanation except Sr No 1. It is

Sr No 2 till the end which is absolutely correct. The fact is that

every sacrifice ( renunciation) instantly produces happiness.

INSTANTLY - even if that renunciation is of body waste. It is LAW !

That it boosts ego, etc they are all craps. NO RENUNCIATION CAN EVER

FUEL EGO ! Every renunciation reduces Ego ! There is no substance in

classifying Bhoga, Happiness (sukha) and Ananda and then eloquently

concluding - " Just words....nothing more " . " If you look closely -

Happiness is happiness " !! Sheer twist of words and nothing ,

nothing more than that ! They are not just words , there are

distinctions between them as wide as are south and north poles.

 

You have not looked closely at all Mr Naga Narain. Bhoga is

temporary. Bhoga is relative. ANANDA is absolute, self proven. Dont

say so loosely whatever comes to mind. Think deeply. Have you never

heard the word PEACE ? If yes, why did not you talk about it? What

is happiness ? Know Mr Naga and accept it humbly that- Happiness is

PEACE !! Says Gita - ASHANTASYA KUTAH SUKHAM ? ( Where is happiness

to him , who is not peaceful.? ) Dont just say for the sake of

saying.

 

But I have a request to make to GT Moderators. Please insist that

there is RELEVANCE to the Q asked in the response. Sushilji ,

Vyasji, Mike, Pratapji , Jee Jee Shashikalajee all talked

about " Duties of Household " and then came finer points of

discussion. Did Mr Naga Narain talk a single word reg the Question

of Mr GeeWaman? This is not how the deliberations become focussed

and fruitful.

 

Radhey Radhey

Nisha Chatterji

--------------------------------

To GT Moderators

 

Re-Read this again and kindly explain:

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-

triggered,whether it is established within or borrowed from around,

it has the same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the

ego. Anybody can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes

alcohol why he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be

always to forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard.

If you analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to

analyze), it becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at

least to forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there.

Whether a person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance

(e.g.coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans,

etc.),and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

WHAT DOES IT MEAN ? IT MEANS THAT IF YOU ARE CONSUMING DRUGS , (

substance triggered) - so long as under the influence of drugs you

are forgetting I- ness and Me- ness , you have established yourself

to the HIGHEST ANANDA level and have achieved the goal of human

birth ??? WHAT EXACTLY IS MEANT BY THIS?

 

And GT Moderators are thanking ?? along with boldly reference to

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj !!!

 

No ! I dont want to be a party to such ecstacies! Sorry. I regret I

became member of this group.

 

Audrey Rodrigues

--------------------------------

Hare Hare

 

Recent deliberations raise more Questions than answers. How can any

SADHAK boldly state that BHOGA/SUKHA/ANANDA are same thing, only a

matter of attitude, the effect is the same !!! Incomprehensible !

 

Statements such as same Ananda gets converted into happiness/bhoga

etc. are taking us no where in this WORD PLAY. The fact is that

there is huge difference in EXPERIENCE/ VERY NATURE/ VERY ELEMENTARY

of these elements. One is relative,transitory, unnatural, unreal and

another is ABSOLUTE and NATURAL, and real. What has attitude got

to do with it is totally unclear? and mainly what does it have to

do with the Question of Mr Gee Waman?

 

Bandook Singh Rathod

 

--------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Friends

I refer to the Gita Talk Moderator's request for explanation on my

statement 'Sacrifice and happiness are contrary'

1.Mr Naga Narayan has explained it correctly and adequately that the

notion or act of sacrifices boosts ego.

2.Act done with compassion and empathy for the benefit of other

will not boost ego and the act itself will be joy.

3.Sacrifice assumes forgoing something whereas in reality the

happiness by doing something for others is much more.

4.Sacrifice ,in a way ,focuses attention on other whereas happiness

focuses on self.

5.Sacrifice assumes owning and parting with something valuable

whereas for a sadhak nothing is owned and nothing is parted with.

 

If anything done which does not boosts ego it is ok but mind is vey

subtle

 

There is fundamentally no difference of opinion in importance of

sacrifice but one has to careful about it's impact on ego.

 

Mr Naga Narayan has also mentioned Forgiveness.

 

I am willing to forgive now is the first step in forgiving. Only

saying 'I forgive now completely and unconditionaly' is not

sufficient.Major issues and problems can be resolved by one

statement 'I am willing to forgive now' It can be made a daily 5-10

minutes routine every night.

 

But even more important is ' I seek forgiveness now' This single

sentence can work miracle.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

------------------------------

 

Q: SUKH = HAPPINESS; and ANAND = BLISS. In your response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand.

 

Normally, the scriptures refer to the same in three levels - Ananda,

Sukha and Bhoga. Though they all address the same experience, the

attitude behind the experience differ dramatically depending on the

ignorance and inertia hoarded in an individual.

 

Ananda is the state of bliss where there are no attitudes - nobody

to claim the ownership of the experience. As soon as an owner (the

ego) crops up, the absolute experience becomes a memory in the

owners perception. The recall of the absolute bliss is often

referred to as Sukha. When an external agent is given the authority

over the same experience - the belief that the joy is inherent in

the objects of pleasures - it is called Bhoga.

 

In other words,

 

Bhoga – The objects are let to own the (notion of) happiness – the

ego owns the anticipation of the experience thereupon. The

individual craves for the availability of the objects of pleasures

and enterst the whirlpool of miseries.

Sukha – The subject owns the (memory of) happiness - the ego owns

the belief of enjoyership. The individual elates in his own prowess

to command the experience. On the positive side, it allows the ego

to pause to wonder and ponder `what is the nature of the happiness

and what exactly is its focus?'

Ananda – The Happiness remains as The Absolute where both the

subject and the objects are dissolved loosing their identities and

ownerships altogether.

 

But, if you look at it closely, The Happiness is The Happiness

whether one entertained apparent notion (Bhoga) or inherent notion

(Sukha) or just be THAT (Ananada). All the words are referring to

the same … but the first two have no clue of what IT really is!

Space is space and time is time whether one is congizant of the same

or not. So is The Hapiness … IT is what IT IS, nothing else.

 

Just words … nothing more …

 

Q: ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is

having our eye on other's welfare and benefit. This is true

sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING,

ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS

BENEFICIAL TO US?

 

Yes! Many other realized souls also advise the same to the worldly

men the same way!! Nobody can tell otherwise in all sanity when

the " good living " is in the context.

 

I am not well-versed on Swamiji's works. But, whatever few things I

have understood so far from his works is as follows. Swamiji

emphasises on all the good qualities when the context is relative

life. All the qualities such as non-violence, sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. are good for keeping healthy relations within

the society on one hand and are good tools to turn one's attention

from " Bhoga " toward " Sukha " - from worldly dependence toward

individual independence to actualize the spiritual practices to

start with. Swamiji refers to this as journey from Prapancha Drishti

toward Viveka Drishti. In Viveka Drishti, clear discrimination (Ref:

Sadhan Sudhaa Sindhu, Vibhaga Yoga) of the perceived dualities and

polarities in absolute clarity from the perceptional view point

itself is of paramount importance to reveal the ignorance hidden in

ones apparent knowledge. At this level, one has to see through ones

appreciation to realize what really is " good " and what really

is " bad " even from the perceptional standards. That is essential to

lead a " good living " . And, " good living " is essential for

spirituality. No arguments there.

 

The same Swamiji also continues further while educating our Viveka

Drishti toward Bhagavaddrishti ( " Sukha " toward " Ananda " ) to explain

how even the acts of Deep Trans (Samadhi) - let alone regular

Bhajans, Meditations, and other good living qualities - belong to

the dominion of the Insentient World, The Prakriti. No trace of ego

is enetertained at The Ananda, The Sentient, The Purusha (Ref:

Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Bhagavattattva). The Avinaashee Ras that he

explains in the next chapter is an eye opener from this perspective.

Only THAT is present and nothing else - not even Samadhi in that

Sahaja Sthiti.

 

Therefore, it depends on the context. A Bhogi needs to be educated

to become a Sukhi … and a Sukhi seeks Ananda naturally. In the first

phase, good qualities should be imbibed … in the second phase, even

that should be dropped. Interestingly, there is no sequence in these

phases … we, as seekers, often oscillate between the three states of

happiness (Bhoga, Sukha and Ananda) due to the inertia and ignorance

gravitated within. Till we purge the lump of ignorance and inertia

out we cannot help it. However, pragmatic appreciation (Yathaartha

Gnyaana) of what we do, how we do and who we are is essential.

Somehow, I am fascinated by the second phase more than the first.

That is all. It does not mean that the first phase is of any

insignificance.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

As our Moderators note Mike's post, I would also say yes, we are a

one big (happy) family. It is happy family because happiness comes

from our bigness. If we feel divided and shrunk, we don't feel

happy. Our bigness makes us integrally one and acts as if we are

one, and hence leaves no room for conflict inherent in division.

Such bigness manifests in well being of all because whoever does

whatever is for well being of one and all.

Secondly I want to build on what Shashikalaji said on Ego.

Ego is a " sense " (perception) of separation in our Consciousness-

Atman, which is ONE, and cannot be divided into many.

This sense is also called " me " or " I " , mistaken to be an

independently existing entity.

This " me " is only a thought in mind or a feeling/sensation

(pains/pleasures) in body that we identify with and say its " me "

or " I " . Once there is " me " , mineness ensues! If we don't identify

body as " me " just as toddlers don't, there cannot be " mineness " .

Mineness can be many but " me " is only one appearing as many

mineness. " me " is hiding place for mineness.

This " me " becomes stronger with external sense perception which we

call world " out there " and thus we say " not-I or not-me " . Thus not-I

or not-me gives more credibility to " me " and viceversa. Soon the

mere sense becomes reality.

Strangly enough, " me " is never our experience! When examined, our

experience seems to be of being conscious of thoughts and sensations

of forms/objects perceived/conceived only. In otherwords,

Consciousness is the only experience upon which we superimpose body-

mind-world. Then to this-body-mind we say " me " and the other-bodies-

world become not-me.

Experientially the body appears in mind as thought; the mind and the

world, both, appear as thoughts in Consciousness. This very

Consciousness is Atman, or Brahman or Reality or Pure Soul, or

Pure " Presence-I AM " or Existence which is conscious of itself

called SELF!

SELF is Sat-Chit experience(anubhutirupah). As such it is never

embodied, rather body-mind-world are in It, It permeates the entire

universe. Everything is in It as Itself.

IF one can see the truth of it, one gets liberated, JeevnMukta.

This is ONE TRUTH, all else is Bondage!

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

In response to the comment by the moderators, to my somewhat

truncated response, I have contemplated Gitaji for what was

underlying my thoughts.

 

'A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on.

 

Taking the verses from Gitaji posted below, and looking at a profile

of a family head who has gained these attributes:

 

The man of restraint is awake

In what is night for all beings;

That in which all beings awake

Is night for the wise one who sees. B.G. 2(69)

 

The highest Self of him who has

Conquered himself and is peaceful,

Is steadfast in cold, heat, pleasure,

Pain; and honor and dishonor. B.G. 6(7)

The yogi who is content in

Knowledge and discrimination,

With senses conquered–unto him

Earth, stone, and gold are all the same. B.G. 6(8)

He attains eminence who looks

The same on well-wishers, friends, foes,

Neutral to enemies and kin,

The righteous and the unrighteous. B.G. 6(9)

 

Would not get caught up with mob mentality, understanding his duty

to create a wise and functioning family.

Being at peace, with the Divine shining through, will do what is

right, will not show favoritism, see the worth in all, including the

members of ones family. (Not to be one eyed, about the family or its

members).

Not to waste effort, in trying to buy affection within the family

with trinkets and toys even if they are sports cars etc.

Understanding that one should not judge, as all is working out as it

will (Lila). But with compassion and love one can offer sound

guidance.

(These attributes are far more global than family, but actually are

we not one big family?)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor).

 

---------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

MIKE! Thank you! BEAUTIFULLY SAID. Are we not one big family? Thus

is our PRIMARY duty AS A " ONE BIG " FAMILY MAN - " Sarvabhootahite

rataah " (Gita 12:4)? That is - May we all be absorbed in the well

being of all. What is sadhak's understanding regarding this? Does

Gita speak at all of the smaller family nucleas that we think off as

family?

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Excellent Q by GT Moderators ! There are two ahams (egos) . One that

relates with " existence " of the self (I exist) . A Jnana Yogi

establishes himself into that only. That remains in all three yogis-

Jnana, Bhakti and Karma yogis, even after liberation/kalyaan.

 

There is " another " ego which is connecting " self " (pure soul) to

inert (to world - body/mind/intellect). It is always " worldly " ego.

I am body, I am Doctor, I am rich etc. This " me " gets destroyed with

destruction of " mine " immediately as a law. What remains behind is

pure unattached free " self " !

Jeevan Mukta. Liberated while living. Janaka, Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj, Vaashishtha, Kaak Bhusandi etc had become liberated before

merging with Brahma. Their binding ego had destroyed but " I exist "

this awareness remained. " I " thus remained there. But that " I "

always remained in " Equanimity " mode- unattached !

 

In fact 'desire', 'spriha' , 'mamata' and 'ahankaar' all four are

one element only-worldly ego ! Desire is gross. " Spriha " (worry for

basic needs for body ) is subtle than desire. " Mamata " (mineness) is

more subtle than " spriha " . Ego (me) is the subtlest among the four

names of same element. Hence in " effect " you renounce

fully " mamata " , you will become " egoless " and vice versa !

 

As regards reference of Gita/Swamiji - please refer pg 137 of Sadhak

Sanjeevani where Swamiji while commenting upon BG 2:71 had stated

exactly what I have written. Read particularly second last para on

pg 137 (Hindi) of Sadhak Sanjeevani !

 

When the body is not " mine " , then I don't need anything . Desire

for what? Worry for what? When nothing is " mine " then what remains

in " me " ?

" Me " in fact is always with reference to worldly possessions, body

etc. When " mine " is gone, very basis for " me " is gone !! What

remained behind is " I exist " - this awareness only ! Unattached,

Free, Liberated - me - I exist !!

 

A Karma yogi (Grihashtha-houeshold generally) strives to

renounce " mineness " - mamata by putting his/her body, belongings,

powers etc fully into the service of the world. By doing that

his/her " mineness " first gets destroyed and thereupon ego (me -ness)

gets purified of " worldly impact/connection " ! A Jnana Yogi first

eliminates " me-ness " (ahankaar- I am doer) by renouncing worldly

activities in favour of nature ( I am not body. I don't do

anything ) and thereupon his/her mamata gets renounced. A Bhakti

yogi changes his " me-ness " from worldly to Godly ( I am of God ) and

mineness from worldly to Godly (ONLY God is mine) and thus becomes

egoless and mamtaless !! All three thus renounce " connection with

inert- world - body/mind/intellect/activity/matter " . " I exist " -

this awareness remains in them till death ! They use body, mind,

intellect - but in " equanimous mode " - unattached !!

 

Thanks ! Nothing pleases me more than such Question / Answer

sessions. A really good Question !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

THANK YOU JEE JEE! (GT MODERATORS)

--------------------------------

Thanks for the wonderful questions …

 

How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit - the

ego?

Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family man?

Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there must

be certain duties of a Householder?

 

Let us see …

 

Q: How one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true culprit -

the ego?

 

The Happiness, The Ananda, whether you receive it knowingly or

unknowingly, whether is substance-triggered or subject-triggered,

whether it is established within or borrowed from around, it has the

same quality - erasure of the I-ness and Mine-ness, the ego. Anybody

can do this self-experiment. Ask anybody who consumes alcohol why

he/she would drink that. The truthful answer would be always to

forget what they are, to forget the identities they hoard. If you

analyze the psyche of anybody (oneself is the best to analyze), it

becomes apparent that everything we do is to erase, at least to

forget, what we think we are as we think we stink there. Whether a

person derives this state of mind by chemical assistance (e.g.

coffee, tea, food, intoxicants, drugs, etc.), and/or by social

assistance (e.g. spouse, children, family, parties, bhajans, etc.),

and/or by psychological assistance (dreaming, narscissism,

meditation, etc.), or by natural assistance (sleep), the quality of

the happiness is unique - the absence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

Quality of its counterpart (unhappiness) is also uniques - the

presence of I-ness and Mine-ness!

 

Its uniques aspect of the happiness is its independence of all the

media through which one attains it. Also, the happiness should be

ever present everywhere. Otherwise, how can one attain it

irresepctive of the media chosen? How can one attain the same every

time consistently? How can anybody attain it any time anywhere? This

reinforces the theory that it is present across time and space,

rather it transcends space and time and therefore everything else.

 

When it is independent of everything, why should one develop

dependence on anything else? When it is ever-present everywhere in

abundance, why every one seem to struggle to pursue the same as if

in a panick that there is a scarcity of the same? That remains the

puzzle for everyone.

 

The reason why we loose sight of the happiness is the corruption

smeared by the ego who comes back to action claiming ownership over

the erstwhile experience of the happiness. Knowing the un-ownable

nature of the happiness subconciously, the ego enforces its

authority further by making a belief that the happiness is hidden in

the objects and actions because it feels it can manipulate them.

Without its own knowledge, it becomes a slave to the same ideas,

actions and objects which are its slaves in its belief. That is the

weakness of the ego … dependence on external entities such as

objects, actions and ideas to believe the presence of the happiness.

It does not understand, rather it refuses to understand, that the

very same ideas, actions or objects could provide happiness only by

removing itself from its cognition by disconnecting it from the

mechanism of relating itself to the I-ness and Mine-ness in real.

Due to its ignorance of what is happening, it becomes addicted to

the very notions, actions and objects to " forget " itself.

 

As I see spirituality is bi-modal in nature. The first mode is to

appreciate the inherent happiness that is ever-present and ever-

free; and the second is to realize that the ego itself can

relinquish its cherished I-ness and Mine-ness volitionally. The TRUE

FREEDOM is to empower itself to execute on its own removal rather

than franchising an external agent to do the same. The TRUE

CONTENTMENT is to be the ever-present and ever-free happiness that

everything is naturally rather than imbibing the same through some

specific agents - be it natural, psychological, social or

substantial.

(THANK YOU NAGA NARAYANAJI - THAT CLARIFIES. WE WERE TRANSLATING

SUKH = HAPPINESS and ANAND = BLISS. In you response you have

clarifed that you used the word happiness for Anand. GT Moderators)

 

Q: Can one be happy at another's expense as a householder/family

man?

 

When one is established in CONTENTMENT and FREEDOM how can he ever

disturb others?! Even when one is working toward THAT, how can there

be exploitation of others? Compassion floods out when one is filled

with Freedom and Contentment; compassion oozes out even when one's

vision is fixed toward THAT. Such a person can never be

inconsiderate to his environment - be it the family, or colleagues,

or fellow travellers, or any stranger on the street. Compassion to

others is an eventuality, a natural eventuality ascertaining the

abundance of happiness within. Apparent lack of compassion is the

symptom of the inherent lack of contentment and freedom. One has to

dig deep through the apparent symptom toward the inherent root cause

to correct the corruption at deeper and deeper layers. THAT TO ME IS

THE SPIRITUALITY. Changing the apparent behavior to suit one's

beliefs is deceit and hypocracy.

 

One need not become anything specific - be it in the lifestyle or in

the profession or in the soceity - anything that we are and we do is

OK as far as we dive into the abyss within. All the disturbances of

an ocean is superficial … the deeper we dive, the more peaceful it

is … the abyss of all the bliss is inherent in our depths

where " what we think we do " as well as " what we think we are " are

both annihilated without traces.

 

Q: Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides being happy, there

must be certain duties of a Householder?

 

The notions of sacrifice, forgiving, etc. have a corrupt notion

thanks to our ego. What is meant really to people in common sense is

that, a person forgoes his happiness for others' happiness in these

acts. That means, the ownership is strongly enseeded in such

notions. Typically, sacrifice would mean " Yes that is mine, but I do

not mind giving to the other man so that he can be happy with! " Same

way, forgiving typically means, " Yes the other fellow did something

wrong; but it is OK; let me be magnanimous enough not to react; poor

fellow he does not know what he is doing! " Do you see the strength

of ownership in a subtle camafluage here? That is dangerous for

spirituality.

 

In contentment, there is no room for ideas such as sacrifice,

forgivingness, etc. Whatever a content man does looks like sacrifice

as he is not staking for any fruits from the actions that flow out

of him. Also, since whatever the environemnt does to him are lost in

the oblivion of the contentment within and hence cannot invoke any

reaction at all. Therefore, it sounds like he is forgiving

everything that is happening around. To him … there is no sacrifice

and no forgiving. For him, " there is nothing mine to aid others " .

Then how can there be a notion of sacrifice? For him, " nothing can

go wrong as there is nothing wrong in the first place " . Then how can

there be a notion of forgiving? Obviously both notions belong to the

others who harbor their respective egoes!

 

(THANK YOU ! WE SEE NOW THE POINT. ONE DOUBT - SWAMIJI HAS

EMPHASIZED TYAAG (SACRIFICE). It is having our eye on other's

welfare and benefit. This is true sacrifice (tyaag). THEREFORE TO

SEE TO SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-BEING, ISN'T THERE AN ELEMENT OF TYAAG

I.E. NOT HAVING EYE ON WHAT IS BENEFICIAL TO US? From Gita Talk

Moderators).

 

For social and personal upliftment, a softer ego is better than the

crude one, I agree. Notions such as sacrifice, forgiving, etc. are

very useful there. In spiritual upliftment, ego is not acceptable in

any form. When the ego itself is annihilated in spiritual

upliftment, all other upliftments are just natural within that. That

is the beauty of spirituality versus " good living " . " Good living "

(Samaja Dharma) requires many tenets and doctrines as it still

remains variant and circumstantial. Spirituality (Sanaatana Dharma),

on the other hand, is eteranl and unique. It transcends all the

variations as well as the variants catergorically. The happiness

(Ananda) is its abode.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

The moment one applies self conscience the question of evaluation of

the task sets in, i.e., result is viewed and assessed whether it is

a " good " or " bad " job to do. The assigned job has to be done without

any consideration to that aspect.Could the doubt be cleared by this

humble person ? Namaste..

 

 

 

 

Grihastha - Household is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity) which a

human being is subjected to. No other tapasya is as subtle, as

fierce and as consuming as is that of a household. One must always ,

therefore, remember this 'grihastha' is a school for one's

emancipation and address the same accordingly.

 

Barin Chatterjee

------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

Look at the family of Lord Shiva ! Lord Shiva sports garland of

skulls and serpent. Lord Shiva's vehicle is bull. Parvatiji on the

contrary is always wearing beautiful ornaments. Parvatiji's vehicle

is Lion. Their son, Lord Ganesha's vehicle is mouse. Their second

son Lord Karthikeya's vehicle is peacock. The serpent and mouse are

by birth fierce enemies. Mouse is the food of serpent. Peacock and

serpent are enemies. Peacock kills serpent. Lion and bull are

enemies. Bull is food for lion. Bitter enemies of each other. All in

one family. But, all live in perfect harmony and comfortably.

 

JUST AS: In Lord Shiva's family all members have different and

contrasting natures, still there is unity in the family.

 

SIMILARLY: All members of any household have different natures, and

different perspectives, and still there can be unity.

 

How? Each member should look at his role and duty only and not at

other's role and duty. One should always strive to give pleasure to

other. " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST " - should be the 'bhava'

(inner expression) of a Grihastha.

 

A grihastha in order to provide pleasure to other family members,

must renounce his own pleasures. That renunciation in fact is true

austerity ! It is law that without renouncing your own pleasure, you

can't provide happiness to others.

 

1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures- if you do these, you have lived

well in the grihashtha.

 

Sadhaks should remember that it is in Grihastha only- each and every

household, no exceptions- that you get practical opportunities to

get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual likings

and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha) and learn fine points of

real " karma yoga " and " bhakti yoga " . Grihashtha Ashram (Household)

is the most important and most beneficial phase of each human being.

One must therefore make best use of it. It is in grihastha, seeds of

of your old age are sown.

 

Above all, in Grihastha it is the utmost duty of a male is to see

God in his parents. If a grihashtha merely obeys his parents , his

life becomes divine. His old age becomes ideal.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

" O descendant of Bharata, at that time Krishna, smiling, in the midst

of both the armies, spoke the following words to the grief-stricken

Arjuna. " B.G. 2:10

 

The 'Smile of Krishna', that is pregnant with, Divine Love,

Compassion, and Wisdom.

 

If one is of a nature to have these qualities in the household,

then peace and love will prevail.

 

Being detached from the Ego Wars, will give one the ability to be of

real value to all within the family sphere, (and those who know you).

 

A person of such qualities will know his duties as a father/mother,

grand parent, and so on. (PLEASE ELABORATE ON THE QUALITIES - FROM

GITA TALK MODERATORS)

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike (Keenor)

--------------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally. Doing happens while

doer disappears! At all stages and in all roles duties will be

performed within the guidelines of Dharma as appropriate for the

circumstances one is placed, because one is Loving what has to be

done.

Without feeling such Love, duty feels like forced upon one, and

becomes chores, and boring! With Love, it is not so much as duty,

that one has to do, but rather its a Joy to do it.

So the real issue boils down to " what stops such Love to flow

freely? " Not realizing what I truly AM.

However, we can be guided by wisdom of Gita to ultimately realize

our true nature by performing duties in the best possible ways we

know, with devotion, with Love and without any expectations or

favors. Doing in such a way is its own reward, Yoga itself,

incorporating Yogah Karmashu Kaushalam principle of Gita

So as a householder with family, one takes care of those who are

entrusted to one by God. with an attitude of seeing the family as

gift from God, and serving them is to serve God. That is all!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Grihastha is the feeder to all other ashrams. Saints also get food

from households only. The beauty of grihastha ashram is that " you

can't run away " from your duties. You must do your duties- else

shatterred home ! A sadhu if he confronts with something

unpleasant , he will simply take his kamandal and walk away from the

scene. But a household can not ! That is " austerity " !

 

Rule of Grihastha is simple- Serve, Serve and serve ! Do your duty !

It is a law that service/duty destroys " mamata " . It is also a law

that if mamata is destroyed, ego gets destroyed automatically. You

instantly realise God if mamata (mine) is destroyed. What else ego

consists except " me " ? Where is the " me " when " mine " is

destroyed? " Me " (ego) and " Mine " ( mamata) are the chains which bind

a human being to the world. From this only Raag and Dvesha emerge !

Household is the place where you can easily -simply by serving the

family-destroy them decisively and achieve the very purpose for

which the human life has been given to you !

 

" Nirmamo Nirahankarasya sa shanti madi gachhati " - He who has

become " minenessless " and " egoless " gets permanent Peace and

liberation.

 

As simple as that !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

(Shashikalaji, ANY REFERENCE? CAN ONE NOT BE FREE OF MAMTA (free

of mine-ness)BUT STILL HAVE SENSE OF I-NESS (EGOISM)? GT

MODERATORS)

 

--------------------------

Friends

1.Arjuna was a Gruhastha, a family man and a householder.The

teachings applicable to Arjuna is applicable to

Gruhastha or householder.

2.The difference between Gruhastha and Sannyasi is difference in

objects of desire or attachment. King Janak devoid of attachment

was better and spiritually advanced than many Cannabis.

3.As rightly mentioned by Shri Naga Narayana the only duty of human

beings is to be happy. It is the substance,core and outcome of all

knowledge and efforts.

4.God is also called 'SAT CHIT ANAND' meaning mind/heart filled

with indestructible/permanent joy.Such state is not dependent on

others.

5.Happiness or Joy cannot be at other's cost or expense.

6.Sacrifice and happiness are contrary. Sacrifice will not provide

happiness. (KINDLY EXPLAIN - FROM GITA TALK MODERATOR)

7.According to Gita ,the only duty is to unite with God because that

alone can be source of happiness.

 

regards

Ashok Jain

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

KAMA--ARTHA--MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

The 4 steps Grahastha need to do.

But the Grahasta has to do and live as per sastras that Bagavan

says. Grahasth has lot of duties on shoulder as Kunthi had. But

Kunthi did well.

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

duty=dharama ?

Family or no family, the only dharma of a man is to unite with God.

1.Accept God is mine and family belongs to God. So serve the family

considering it as a gift given to you by God, with the capacity

given to you by God, with the tools given to you by God.

 

2.Choose any path-gyaan yoga, bhakti yoga or karma yoga. The common

element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme is the most important.

Many hard working people think that they are following karma yoga,

but they take all responsibily on themselves, they worry, they

insist on certain outcome, they trust their own strength, to me they

are not Yogi.

 

yoga-sthah kuru karmani

sangam tyaktva dhananjaya

siddhy-asiddhyoh samo bhutva

samatvam yoga ucyate

 

Establish yr self in Yoga and perform yr duties,abandon all

attachment to success or failure. Such evenness of mind is called

yoga.....

 

Do whatever God wants you to do while reaiming established in yoga.

with Love,

a sadhika

 

Sadhna Karigar

-----------------------

 

 

Hi,

According to scriptures, 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of

gratitude. Human being is bound to do duties at various levels of

his life i.e Saisavam, Balyam, Kaumaram and Vardhakyam. In Kaumaram

normaly one takes up life of a householder or Grihastha. A

householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha. To fully live

the life of a human the operation manual called Gita is available

for reference at any level for us.

 

with love, krishnadasan.

----------------------------

 

Dear Sadhak,

Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined elsewhere. One is not to analyze it, nor aspire for it.

Whatever comes in the way that has to be performed with all

sincerity, without having any interest in the result. One has been

given only the right of execution of the assigned work, neither the

cause of it nor the effect.(Karmanye ebo te adhikara, kodachono

faleshu ma, In Gita-II.47).

Option of becoming a Family man was also assigned which has its own

format. The format has also to be strictly followed, as it comes in

the way, but never one can apply his self conscience about

evaluation of the quality of the work assigned. (karmasanginam

agynang budhivedang na jonoyet bidwan jukto sarba karmani sadacharan

jojayet...Gita III-26)

 

BARIN CHATTERJEE

 

Warm regards

--------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR BARINJI,

Kindly explain what you mean in the last paragraph ... " never one can

apply his self conscience....... " .

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

--------------------------

There is ONLY ONE DUTY for all irrespective of what they do ...

BEING HAPPY!

 

As Shankara says,

 

Jatilo mundee lunchita keshah kashaayaambra bahukrita veshah |

Pashyannapi cha na pashyati mudhah udaranimittam bahukritaveshah ||

 

everyone has to do something or the other. One claims to be a house-

holder having no clue of what is house and what is holding. So is a

Sanyasi equally clueless of what Sanyasa means. One may ask, what is

the basis to doubt of their knowledge upon what they are doing?

Happiness, my dear friend. One who is unhappy does not where he

is ... because he does not know what he is doing ... because he does

not know who he is ...

 

Whether you are happy with what you are doing depends on your

intellect. Whether you are happy with what you are depends on your

wisdom. The question really is ... whether you want to be happy with

what you are doing ... or with what you are.

 

If you want to be happy with what you do ... many questions

follow ... how is my " doing " related to happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary as I see ... then, how much " doing " is

required to maintain the derivative happiness?

 

The " doing " is multitude and variant ... then how many " doings "

should I do to derive effective happiness?

 

The " doing " is momentary, multitude and variant, how can I ever say

that the " happiness-es " derived from my various " doings " is really

the happiness?

 

Now the first question looms around stronger ... has the " doing "

anything to do with the happiness at all?!

 

I you want you to be happy with what you are ... then who cares what

you do? Stick with what you think you are.

 

Then comes the question, " Am I the one that I think that I am? "

 

Then, my dear friend, the clock starts ticking for you toward the

real happiness ... because you will find that you are not whatever

you thought as, perpetually. You will discover that all your

thoughts of " what you are " were in fact your " doings " and

never " you " . Then you may also realize that your happiness were

perpetually consumed by these parasites ... your identities ...

your " doings " and your " are-s " . As far as we are cognizant of what

we " are " and what we " do " , we are OK ... we can interrogate them

further.

 

Relating " what we do " and " what we are " to the happiness is an

absurd baseless logic ... it is called " Kaakataaleeya Nyaaya " . A

crow sits on a palm tree. Palm fruit falls down. The observer says,

the palm fruit falls down when a crow sits on the tree. The observer

beleives that there is a relation having not given any attention to

what relation means! Being happy is neither in " what we do " nor

in " what we think we are " . Both are the two faces of the same coing -

IDENTITY, the ego. In fact, if you were ever happy, my dear friend,

it was ONLY WHEN you had kept this coin away in your pocket.

 

Therefore, whatever you are and whatever you do is OK as far you are

happy. Because your happiness indicates the absence of the true

culprit - the ego. If we stick to the happiness as such, we will

then realize that " what is needed is to throw away this fellow, the

ego. Then what I do does not matter ... and what I am does not

matter ... I am happy as I should be! " . In my opinion, that is

spirituality.

 

Therefore, I see only one rule for spirituality irrespective of what

we are and what we do ... being happy ... being happy at the

core ... being nothing but happiness as such.

 

Respects

Naga Narayana

---------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

FOR NAGA NARAYANA JI, Yes! Being happy at the core is key ! One

doubt arises is can one be happy at another's expense as a

householder/family man? Isn't there an element of sacrifice? Besides

being happy, there must be certain duties of a Householder. Kindly

explain .. how one's happiness indicates the abscence of the true

culprit - the ego?

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

---------------------------

Interesting question......

 

It is all about knowing your true self.........while playing the

role whatever it may be........

Start with positive thought then to Happy thought and try to shift

to no thoughts....

 

As a householder even reaching to the stage of keeping happy

thoughts all the time works very fine and

gives great results and then the ultimate may happen too....while

the role of a householder goes on

perfectly, joyously........

 

Sushil Jain

-----------------------------

Duties of a Gruastha

 

Very simple I believe. I know I don't write much because I am afraid

I may offend some people as I have my own strong views as well.

 

It is nice that you used the word DUTY. Life is a duty and one has

to understand the difference between duty and Maya. Maya attaches

you to the physical manifestation, duty is done as an entity and not

shrouded in Maya. As a father, mother, brother son, sister etc one

performs duty. Thus Moksha is easier to attain.

 

Happy to call this my 2 cents.

shashi dave

------------------------------

SUMMARY OF SADHAK RESPONSES

 

- only dharma of a man is to unite with God

- Accept God is mine and family belongs to God.

- Follow any path, common element is YOGA. Union with the Supreme

- 'Duty' is action performed with a sense of gratitude.

- householder must be thankful to his family first who have become

dependent to him by Dharma and by performing a Vivaha

- operation manual called Gita is ever available to us

- Duty for an individual is pre-determined or may be transitionally

determined

- Duty is to be performed with all sincerity, without attachment to

the result

- Being Happy at the core

- Know your true self, all else is a role

- From positive to happy to no thoughts!

- role of a householder goes on perfectly, joyously

- Life is a duty and one has to understand the difference between

duty and Maya

- Householder life is the biggest " tapasya " (austerity)

- Attitude must be - " LET ME WORK AND OTHERS TAKE REST "

- 1 Keep doing your duty, don't look at other's duty. 2 Feed others'

ego, throw your ego into a dust bin, 3 give pleasure to others,

unmindful of your own pleasures

- When Unconditional Love flows from SELF that one is, one will know

duties, what to or what not to do, naturally.

- get rid of " mineness(mamata) " , " ahankaar " (ego), individual

likings and dislikings ( Raag and Dvesha)

- utmost duty of a male is to see God in his parents

- become free of mamta and ahamtaa by serve, serve, serve.

- Free of I-ness and Mine-ness.

- DHARMA - ARTHA - KAMA- MOKSHA--PURUSARTHAM.

 

 

 

 

-------------------------

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

 

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