Guest guest Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram Dear Sadhaks, even though this has been addressed in recent postings, it will be good to summarize for Sadhaks. From Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram ----------------------------- Dear sadhaks, and the disciples of the teachings of Bhagwan krishna The continued debate and dialogues and words of wisdom flowing from all has been very helpful and more than likley in the deepest of the deep heart and spirit every one knows but the problem as I see is how to How to get rid of external veil of I I I and why ME and ME and why not others? Some one will say I have SELF PRIDE and why AHAM and how to win or get rid of AHAM? which is inherently bonded in every human being and how to surrender to niceties of the spirit and soul and not mind or body?? This is what we need Surrender to me by Bhakti or other means like MEERA is what Krishna would say but practically ____ how can we let go I I AHAM and break the barrier is, what looks like would result in the essence of pursuit of happiness HOW TO? More than likely this has been addressed discoursed in past and if so may be can we if this sounds reasonable be repeated. Thanks Dinesh patel ------------------------ ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - ------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram Dear Sadhaks, even though this has been addressed in recent postings, it will be good to summarize for Sadhaks. From Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram ----------------------------- Dear sadhaks, and the disciples of the teachings of Bhagwan krishna The continued debate and dialogues and words of wisdom flowing from all has been very helpful and more than likley in the deepest of the deep heart and spirit every one knows but the problem as I see is how to How to get rid of external veil of I I I and why ME and ME and why not others? Some one will say I have SELF PRIDE and why AHAM and how to win or get rid of AHAM? which is inherently bonded in every human being and how to surrender to niceties of the spirit and soul and not mind or body?? This is what we need Surrender to me by Bhakti or other means like MEERA is what Krishna would say but practically ____ how can we let go I I AHAM and break the barrier is, what looks like would result in the essence of pursuit of happiness HOW TO? More than likely this has been addressed discoursed in past and if so may be can we if this sounds reasonable be repeated. Thanks Dinesh patel ------------------------ NEW POSTING Dear Sadhak, What really is I-ness? Swamiji's teachings on this subject come to mind. He says - The inseparable and thick relationship that the Self (Atma, Spirit) believes it has with the inert body, mind, intellect etc. is " I- ness " . The I-ness keeps changing, just as everything in the inert (nature) keeps changing... I am a hindu, I am a daughter, I am a supervisor, I am intelligent, I am a writer, I am a PhD, I am a peace lover, I am a grahastha, I am a social worker and on and on... so what is that I-ness? The I-ness comes and goes. Gitaji and Swamiji says, that this I- ness that keeps changing is unreal (impermanent) and therefore not our true Self (Gita 2:16)... If it is not our true Self then in reality, what is there to let go? In fact in deep sleep the I-ness does not stay ! Gitaji prescribes three paths to be free of I-ness - 1) Karmayog (path of action) - The Body/Mind are part of the world and the Self is a part of God. Turn the Body/Mind over to the world, since everything is acquired from the world. By doing everything only for the world, rendering service without the desire for it's fruits, i.e. renouncing the fruits, purifies the I-ness. 2) Jnanayog (path of knowledge)- Understanding and knowing through vivek (discrimination), that the inert (body/mind) etc. are unable to do anything for the Self. There is nothing the Self needs from the world / body / mind etc, thus knowing and becoming free of all desires, the I-ness perishes. 3) In Bhaktiyog (path of devotion)the I-ness changes. I am Bhagwaan's and only Bhagwaan is mine. Everything is Bhagwaan's and there is nothing else besides Bhagwaan. In Karmayog - I-ness purifies In Jnanayog - I-ness perishes In Bhaktiyog - I-ness changes The end result is being free of I-ness. With devotion, Meera Das ------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! If one is naturally inclined to Devotion to God, whatever God may mean in the beginning, then, have longing for God, let the mind be occupied with thoughts of God, let the body remain ready to serve God through serving all. Perform all rituals, like worship, chanting, meditation, all activities that remind you of God. Just God, God, God, whenever possible during the day or night. Above all don't worry about letting go of I or me. It will happen on its own when " I " stops trying to get rid of " I " itself, an impossible task. If one is given to actions, then perform all actions within the guidelines of Righteousness, with devotion uppermost on the mind, like an instrument in the hands of God, the Divinity, the Power, Intelligence, Love and Harmony. See that deeds are not performed by 'me " but the capacity, ability, set of skills given by the Grace of God to do His/Her work. You will see the " me " doer is replaced by " THE DOER " behind all doers! If one is inclined to use intellect, inquiry, path of knowledge, direct approach, then, Understanding based on experience is of great importance. Just see that I who wants to let go is the same I who has to go. It is not possible to do so, right? But to see/realize the fact: " oh, yes, it is the same I, that wants to get rid of " I-ness, or who is this I in the first place " ?, is the great leap in our understanding of letting it go. On this direct path, it is the Understanding of Truth behind all our experiences liberates us and not our doing anything. In all our doing the " me " gets involved due to ignorance and forms a veil around truth so that we just keep missing the TRUTH. For example, ask yourself a question: " What Am I " ? and pause, don't rush to answer with mind as all such answers overlook inner experience happening in the moment. All of a sudden, Truth will step in to steer you to see ITSELF. One may cry out, and say " oh, my God, I AM already here before I can even ask what am I, I know it for sure, I don't care who or how or why I am, but I AM is experiential certainty, aha " . " Now I know what scriptures mean, what Gita tells me about Atman, I am! " I know I have to be there before I can be anything or anyone like father, son, husband, wife or engineer, doctor, happy, unhappy etc. and when I am not any such upadhi I am still that I am! At this point, Gyani turns Bhakta who loves Truth unconditionally, rejoice in it! This Love for the Truth shows this devotee THE WAY to ITSELF! All objects of the world lead such a one to Bhagwaan by holding his hands, like a child is led by his father! The personal " I " is replaced by Impersonal " I " , the Totality, Functionality, Intelligence, Love, and Harmony in terms of helping and serving the Universe! Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------- By Understanding since understanding is the Key..... Once we understand, we get transformed.....the change starts.... It is a effortless process......there is nothing else to be done... Truth is like that......otherwise it is not the truth..... Once we understand the truth........that is it.....even with the I, Me, It is similar to learning science. Once you understand how Newton's law of motion works you will use them for good......Spirituality is the wisdom/rules of life that govern us.... Once we understand, we can not but change......just have faith and patience...to see it happen... Best wishes.... Sushil Jain ------------------------ Thanks for wonderful piece. Cape India ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - ------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram Dear Sadhaks, even though this has been addressed in recent postings, it will be good to summarize for Sadhaks. From Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram ----------------------------- Dear sadhaks, and the disciples of the teachings of Bhagwan krishna The continued debate and dialogues and words of wisdom flowing from all has been very helpful and more than likley in the deepest of the deep heart and spirit every one knows but the problem as I see is how to How to get rid of external veil of I I I and why ME and ME and why not others? Some one will say I have SELF PRIDE and why AHAM and how to win or get rid of AHAM? which is inherently bonded in every human being and how to surrender to niceties of the spirit and soul and not mind or body?? This is what we need Surrender to me by Bhakti or other means like MEERA is what Krishna would say but practically ____ how can we let go I I AHAM and break the barrier is, what looks like would result in the essence of pursuit of happiness HOW TO? More than likely this has been addressed discoursed in past and if so may be can we if this sounds reasonable be repeated. Thanks Dinesh patel ------------------------ NEW POSTING Hari Om Once Mira Dassji addresses any Q , she always addresses it in entirety, and in a real scholarly manner. Nothing then remains uncovered. Late comers than can only build upon the same. Thanks for short and still a very comprehensive message- covering entire substance of Swamiji's views on the subject. Any discussion on EGO, indeed reminds me of the following story which I have picked FROM A SCRIPTURE OF SANATAN DHARMA for benefit of all sadhaks who try to understand/ grasp what is ego actually. Just as a child attains conviction in this story narrated by mother DUE TO A THOUGHTLESS OR UNREFLECTING MIND, this creation of EGO ( hence worldly life) too has " assumed existence " to those FROM WHOSE MINDS, REFLECTION OR ENQUIRY ( VIVEKA/VICHAAR) HAS LEFT. Proof : Live on going debate on how to address Ego by Ego itself, including usage of Saam/Daam/Dand/Bhed by Ego itself against dreadful Ego itself, under another Q of this Divine Forum. Sadhaks may rush there, after reading this story- to further enjoy an extension, a practical exhibition of the following story:- THE STORY OF THE CHILD There are three brave princes in a non existent city. Of these three, two were never born and the other one never indeed was stationed in a womb. Once, having gone out with the object of acquiring the best, they saw in the sky trees possessing fruits and having eaten those sweet fruits, they reached three rivers crowned by large waves, on the way. There, one was completely dry and there was not even a little water in the other two. Having bathed there and sported in the water, and having drunk the water_ Three reached a city to be created in the future, at the end of the day. There, they saw three beautiful mansions. One was without walls and pillars; the other two houses were non-existent. There, they obtained three pans made of melted gold. Of these, two were in pieces and the other one was powdered. In that, three measures of rice less three measures were cooked. Obtaining that food , it was eaten by Brahmanas without mouths eating much. Then, those 3 princes, having eaten the remnants, stayed there happily engaged in hunting !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------ -Shree Hari- Dear Dinesh, I have read your question a few times, to get the feel of where you are coming from. All the answers I have read are very good. I would like to come at your question from a different angle. I saw a documentary on TV about people on a pilgrimage to the sacred source of the Ganga, what did I see? Pilgrims, thats all I really saw, all the differences between them,(gender,age,race profession), were of no interest to me as an onlooker, they were pilgrims.(It was their journey that kept my attention). And did not these good people consider themselves at that time, to be anything other than pilgrims? From what I have learned of the result of a spiritual driven pilgrimage, the pilgrim transcends to a higher awareness, yes? It's not the intellect or scholarly study that will cause the change, it is the journey, its driving force its rigors, that brings one closer to the the 'Beloved'. Not withstanding the three classic yogas, really are they not the vehicle of choice? One may not be aware that one is of a particular yoga discipline, are we not all on a pilgrimage? It is the journey that will change us, as we keep focused on the final destination, within our hearts. It is the sacred journey, all those rivers you wade, all those sacred shrines you kneel before in the driving rain, all those tears of compassion you weep, all the joyous spring mornings you greet. All this will wash away 'AHAM' (Sometimes I become lyrical). B.G. 12 To these whose mind is set on Me, Verily, I become ere long, O Pritha's son, their Savior from The sea of mortal samsara. (7) (The destination). With Respect and Divine Love. Mike (Keenor) ------------------------------- Dear Sadaks, The I-Ness will go by itself. I (Ness) is there in in thinking (I) want to let go ego. Only thought Vasudeva Sarvamayam will remove Ego. Now Please think like this.. You are acting in a movie. You may be villan or hero or heroine or side actress or side dancer or comedian Etc YOU ARE VERY QUITE AWARE: At the time of acting or Once the movie is complete you are none of those characters, you are not claiming the places/house/garden/co actor/ villan, you are NOT attached to anything in the movie except earning money for the work done. So also in life just do work (Karma) to earn love of God. You can similarly think that all the persons around you are acting (Doing Karma) as per the role given by Paramathuma without beimng attached to the role. You really do not have Krodh, jeolosy etc with your co actors except temporary attahment/friendship. In case yiou dislike your co actor you avoid him. But where as in real life you cannot detach person in your family (Except brothers and sisters). But there were saints who got detached even from wife, like Baktha Gora, Sri Ramanuja, Neelakanda Nayannar, Purander Doss Etc. That detachment lets go Ego- My wife, my child or himself/herself etc. When that goes one is in all and all is one. The Director is God who is seeing how you act and God thinks that you are only acting but HE pities you when you are attached to the role and to all persons in the role. You realize this, that when soul departs that the life was only to estinguise your attachments/Vasanas/ Desires Etc, like when the curtain falls, the actors just bid Hai to each other and go away and ready for next role. The anger, love and comedy is left with stage. We also to leave it on this earth stage, but we carry it in our mind strongly and get next role to act as per the desire. Referance Kapila Geetha of Bagavan. Here the curtain is death and next role is rebirth. Realize this, then you know that you are not the Hero or villan or others, but you are the self Mr.A or Mrs T or Master H, Miss U, side actor M, Villan A, dancer N.. So you are in all (Advaitham) and you are also seem to be seperate (Diyvatham). Then you also know you are A T H U M A N Jai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhak, What really is I-ness? Swamiji's teachings on this subject come to mind. He says - The inseparable and thick relationship that the Self (Atma, Spirit) believes it has with the inert body, mind, intellect etc. is " I- ness " . The I-ness keeps changing, just as everything in the inert (nature) keeps changing... I am a hindu, I am a daughter, I am a supervisor, I am intelligent, I am a writer, I am a PhD, I am a peace lover, I am a grahastha, I am a social worker and on and on... so what is that I-ness? The I-ness comes and goes. Gitaji and Swamiji says, that this I- ness that keeps changing is unreal (impermanent) and therefore not our true Self (Gita 2:16)... If it is not our true Self then in reality, what is there to let go? In fact in deep sleep the I-ness does not stay ! Gitaji prescribes three paths to be free of I-ness - 1) Karmayog (path of action) - The Body/Mind are part of the world and the Self is a part of God. Turn the Body/Mind over to the world, since everything is acquired from the world. By doing everything only for the world, rendering service without the desire for it's fruits, i.e. renouncing the fruits, purifies the I-ness. 2) Jnanayog (path of knowledge)- Understanding and knowing through vivek (discrimination), that the inert (body/mind) etc. are unable to do anything for the Self. There is nothing the Self needs from the world / body / mind etc, thus knowing and becoming free of all desires, the I-ness perishes. 3) In Bhaktiyog (path of devotion)the I-ness changes. I am Bhagwaan's and only Bhagwaan is mine. Everything is Bhagwaan's and there is nothing else besides Bhagwaan. In Karmayog - I-ness purifies In Jnanayog - I-ness perishes In Bhaktiyog - I-ness changes The end result is being free of I-ness. With devotion, Meera Das ------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! If one is naturally inclined to Devotion to God, whatever God may mean in the beginning, then, have longing for God, let the mind be occupied with thoughts of God, let the body remain ready to serve God through serving all. Perform all rituals, like worship, chanting, meditation, all activities that remind you of God. Just God, God, God, whenever possible during the day or night. Above all don't worry about letting go of I or me. It will happen on its own when " I " stops trying to get rid of " I " itself, an impossible task. If one is given to actions, then perform all actions within the guidelines of Righteousness, with devotion uppermost on the mind, like an instrument in the hands of God, the Divinity, the Power, Intelligence, Love and Harmony. See that deeds are not performed by 'me " but the capacity, ability, set of skills given by the Grace of God to do His/Her work. You will see the " me " doer is replaced by " THE DOER " behind all doers! If one is inclined to use intellect, inquiry, path of knowledge, direct approach, then, Understanding based on experience is of great importance. Just see that I who wants to let go is the same I who has to go. It is not possible to do so, right? But to see/realize the fact: " oh, yes, it is the same I, that wants to get rid of " I-ness, or who is this I in the first place " ?, is the great leap in our understanding of letting it go. On this direct path, it is the Understanding of Truth behind all our experiences liberates us and not our doing anything. In all our doing the " me " gets involved due to ignorance and forms a veil around truth so that we just keep missing the TRUTH. For example, ask yourself a question: " What Am I " ? and pause, don't rush to answer with mind as all such answers overlook inner experience happening in the moment. All of a sudden, Truth will step in to steer you to see ITSELF. One may cry out, and say " oh, my God, I AM already here before I can even ask what am I, I know it for sure, I don't care who or how or why I am, but I AM is experiential certainty, aha " . " Now I know what scriptures mean, what Gita tells me about Atman, I am! " I know I have to be there before I can be anything or anyone like father, son, husband, wife or engineer, doctor, happy, unhappy etc. and when I am not any such upadhi I am still that I am! At this point, Gyani turns Bhakta who loves Truth unconditionally, rejoice in it! This Love for the Truth shows this devotee THE WAY to ITSELF! All objects of the world lead such a one to Bhagwaan by holding his hands, like a child is led by his father! The personal " I " is replaced by Impersonal " I " , the Totality, Functionality, Intelligence, Love, and Harmony in terms of helping and serving the Universe! Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------- By Understanding since understanding is the Key..... Once we understand, we get transformed.....the change starts.... It is a effortless process......there is nothing else to be done... Truth is like that......otherwise it is not the truth..... Once we understand the truth........that is it.....even with the I, Me, It is similar to learning science. Once you understand how Newton's law of motion works you will use them for good......Spirituality is the wisdom/rules of life that govern us.... Once we understand, we can not but change......just have faith and patience...to see it happen... Best wishes.... Sushil Jain ------------------------ Thanks for wonderful piece. Cape India ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - ------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram Dear Sadhaks, even though this has been addressed in recent postings, it will be good to summarize for Sadhaks. From Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram ----------------------------- NEW POSTING Hari Om Having explained that Ego is nothing but a non existent ghost created by ignorance of Jeeva- the Q as to how one should get rid of it becomes quite easy to answer. Dispel ignorance !! Understand that THIS IGNORANCE (Ego) is THE ONLY cause, as per Scriptures, of your worldly existence; and EGO ONLY makes you CONNECTED with this world ! Understand CATEGORICALLY also that Ego is Inert and is 'acceptance' of SELF. Only self can REJECT this and NO ONE ELSE ! Only SELF can help SELF ! With respect to this EGO our Scriptures/Saints identify it primarily with notions of " ME as body " and " MINE as mind/intellect/ego - body - world -activity/matter-Nature-Inert ! Here few " terms " come into focus in Holy Scriptures say with ref mainly to activity - DOERSHIP. For results- ENJOYERSHIP and Dualities (Dvandas) like Sukha-dukha/ profit-loss/ respect- disrespect etc. With ref to matter say DESIRES (Kaamna)and SPRIHA (worry for basic needs). Then with ref to both activity and matter spring forth likings (RAAG) and dislikings(DVESHA) Thus - 1 ME ; 2 MINE; 3 DOERSHIP/ENJOYERSHIP ; 4 LIKINGS/DISLIKINGS; 5 DESIRES / SPRIHA; 6 DUALITIES ; and 7 IGNORANCE- all become constituents of Ego , in one way or other. All with reference to body/ World/ Nature/Activity-Matter ! ( Basically " World/Jagat/ Prakruti " is nothing except activity and matter.In deeper sense there is no matter even, there is ONLY constant/ceaseless activity going on. A mass of constant activity is called matter) For a human being/ Sadhak REAL goal is to become EGOLESS ! Because you (Real) get connected with World (Unreal) only because of EGO !! Different types of sadhaks take different elements/techniques/ powers as 'sadhana' to become EGOLESS !! A Karma Yogi strives to adopt " Equanimity " while relinquishing results and Duty/ Expectationless Service in deciding the nature of karmas to be performed - uses power " to do " ! A. Jnana Yogi 'discriminates' extensively between body/soul; sentient/inert; real/unreal etc and adopts 'Viveka' to relinquish 'doership' first - uses power " to know " ! A Bhakti Yogi changes very " me and mine " from 'worldly' to 'divine' and adopts " Surrender " / " Devotion " to achieve that- uses power " to believe " !! None of them consider Body to be me or mine as a law ! All use ' Divine techniques'. Thus terms such as Equanimity/Surrender/Duty/Devotion/Service/Renunciation/ Discrimination are frequently used terms in Scriptures ! Result _ Disconnection with World ! These Sadhaks finally become desireless /egoless/dualityless (nirdvanda/equanimous)/mamataless By Accepting no doership/ no enjoyership/ no mineness or me- ness with activity/results/matter or Accepting firmly that " I am of God , only God is mine " (Bhakti Yoga) or accepting firmly that " I don't do anything; I am not body " (Jnana Yoga) or accepting firmly that " I don't need anything for myself, I don't have to do anything for myself " ( Karma Yoga). AND THEREBY they are liberated ! You have to get liberated from matter/activity. You have to disconnect with Jagat ! Karma Yogi/Jnana Yogi focus on " disconnection " with World . Their connection then with 'Divine' is automatic and effortless ! Bhakti Yogi focuses on " connection with Divine " . His disconnection with world then is automatic /effortless( becomes responsibility of God) ! Whichever way- Go ahead Divine Sadhaks ! BUT with folded hands, down on my knees, I request you all earnestly - PLEASE DONT GO " BHOGA " WAY ! There is no way prescribed in any Scriptures which allows you indulge into Bhogas and still achieve Liberation. Whatever books reference anyone may advice you . Kindly go " YOGA " way !! The moment you go Yoga way - BG 16:1/16:3 will trigger in your favour ! As simple as that !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- Dear sadhaks, and the disciples of the teachings of Bhagwan krishna The continued debate and dialogues and words of wisdom flowing from all has been very helpful and more than likley in the deepest of the deep heart and spirit every one knows but the problem as I see is how to How to get rid of external veil of I I I and why ME and ME and why not others? Some one will say I have SELF PRIDE and why AHAM and how to win or get rid of AHAM? which is inherently bonded in every human being and how to surrender to niceties of the spirit and soul and not mind or body?? This is what we need Surrender to me by Bhakti or other means like MEERA is what Krishna would say but practically ____ how can we let go I I AHAM and break the barrier is, what looks like would result in the essence of pursuit of happiness HOW TO? More than likely this has been addressed discoursed in past and if so may be can we if this sounds reasonable be repeated. Thanks Dinesh patel ------------------------ Govinda ! Indeed it is bliss to read messages of this forum. Sure, I rushed to other Question to see practically how mind/intellects create ghosts and attempt to fight Ego with Ego itself. A thing which does not exist , it is amazing to see how seriously one fights and advocates the same. Paragraphs upon paragraphs of how a non existing thing relinquishes itself !!! Wonder of the wonders. In fact this story narrated by Vyasji should be an eye opener for many of souls who not only see snake in a rope, but also call a " jhaadigar " ( mantra doctor) to recite mantras, claiming they have been bitten by the snake and poison is spreading in the body. Absolutely unbelievable ! I am a proud party to this Forum. My Pranaams to all of you. Rupesh Kumar ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Once Mira Dassji addresses any Q , she always addresses it in entirety, and in a real scholarly manner. Nothing then remains uncovered. Late comers than can only build upon the same. Thanks for short and still a very comprehensive message- covering entire substance of Swamiji's views on the subject. Any discussion on EGO, indeed reminds me of the following story which I have picked FROM A SCRIPTURE OF SANATAN DHARMA for benefit of all sadhaks who try to understand/ grasp what is ego actually. Just as a child attains conviction in this story narrated by mother DUE TO A THOUGHTLESS OR UNREFLECTING MIND, this creation of EGO ( hence worldly life) too has " assumed existence " to those FROM WHOSE MINDS, REFLECTION OR ENQUIRY ( VIVEKA/VICHAAR) HAS LEFT. Proof : Live on going debate on how to address Ego by Ego itself, including usage of Saam/Daam/Dand/Bhed by Ego itself against dreadful Ego itself, under another Q of this Divine Forum. Sadhaks may rush there, after reading this story- to further enjoy an extension, a practical exhibition of the following story:- THE STORY OF THE CHILD There are three brave princes in a non existent city. Of these three, two were never born and the other one never indeed was stationed in a womb. Once, having gone out with the object of acquiring the best, they saw in the sky trees possessing fruits and having eaten those sweet fruits, they reached three rivers crowned by large waves, on the way. There, one was completely dry and there was not even a little water in the other two. Having bathed there and sported in the water, and having drunk the water_ Three reached a city to be created in the future, at the end of the day. There, they saw three beautiful mansions. One was without walls and pillars; the other two houses were non-existent. There, they obtained three pans made of melted gold. Of these, two were in pieces and the other one was powdered. In that, three measures of rice less three measures were cooked. Obtaining that food , it was eaten by Brahmanas without mouths eating much. Then, those 3 princes, having eaten the remnants, stayed there happily engaged in hunting !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------ -Shree Hari- Dear Dinesh, I have read your question a few times, to get the feel of where you are coming from. All the answers I have read are very good. I would like to come at your question from a different angle. I saw a documentary on TV about people on a pilgrimage to the sacred source of the Ganga, what did I see? Pilgrims, thats all I really saw, all the differences between them,(gender,age,race profession), were of no interest to me as an onlooker, they were pilgrims.(It was their journey that kept my attention). And did not these good people consider themselves at that time, to be anything other than pilgrims? From what I have learned of the result of a spiritual driven pilgrimage, the pilgrim transcends to a higher awareness, yes? It's not the intellect or scholarly study that will cause the change, it is the journey, its driving force its rigors, that brings one closer to the the 'Beloved'. Not withstanding the three classic yogas, really are they not the vehicle of choice? One may not be aware that one is of a particular yoga discipline, are we not all on a pilgrimage? It is the journey that will change us, as we keep focused on the final destination, within our hearts. It is the sacred journey, all those rivers you wade, all those sacred shrines you kneel before in the driving rain, all those tears of compassion you weep, all the joyous spring mornings you greet. All this will wash away 'AHAM' (Sometimes I become lyrical). B.G. 12 To these whose mind is set on Me, Verily, I become ere long, O Pritha's son, their Savior from The sea of mortal samsara. (7) (The destination). With Respect and Divine Love. Mike (Keenor) ------------------------------- Dear Sadaks, The I-Ness will go by itself. I (Ness) is there in in thinking (I) want to let go ego. Only thought Vasudeva Sarvamayam will remove Ego. Now Please think like this.. You are acting in a movie. You may be villan or hero or heroine or side actress or side dancer or comedian Etc YOU ARE VERY QUITE AWARE: At the time of acting or Once the movie is complete you are none of those characters, you are not claiming the places/house/garden/co actor/ villan, you are NOT attached to anything in the movie except earning money for the work done. So also in life just do work (Karma) to earn love of God. You can similarly think that all the persons around you are acting (Doing Karma) as per the role given by Paramathuma without beimng attached to the role. You really do not have Krodh, jeolosy etc with your co actors except temporary attahment/friendship. In case yiou dislike your co actor you avoid him. But where as in real life you cannot detach person in your family (Except brothers and sisters). But there were saints who got detached even from wife, like Baktha Gora, Sri Ramanuja, Neelakanda Nayannar, Purander Doss Etc. That detachment lets go Ego- My wife, my child or himself/herself etc. When that goes one is in all and all is one. The Director is God who is seeing how you act and God thinks that you are only acting but HE pities you when you are attached to the role and to all persons in the role. You realize this, that when soul departs that the life was only to estinguise your attachments/Vasanas/ Desires Etc, like when the curtain falls, the actors just bid Hai to each other and go away and ready for next role. The anger, love and comedy is left with stage. We also to leave it on this earth stage, but we carry it in our mind strongly and get next role to act as per the desire. Referance Kapila Geetha of Bagavan. Here the curtain is death and next role is rebirth. Realize this, then you know that you are not the Hero or villan or others, but you are the self Mr.A or Mrs T or Master H, Miss U, side actor M, Villan A, dancer N.. So you are in all (Advaitham) and you are also seem to be seperate (Diyvatham). Then you also know you are A T H U M A N Jai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan ----------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhak, What really is I-ness? Swamiji's teachings on this subject come to mind. He says - The inseparable and thick relationship that the Self (Atma, Spirit) believes it has with the inert body, mind, intellect etc. is " I- ness " . The I-ness keeps changing, just as everything in the inert (nature) keeps changing... I am a hindu, I am a daughter, I am a supervisor, I am intelligent, I am a writer, I am a PhD, I am a peace lover, I am a grahastha, I am a social worker and on and on... so what is that I-ness? The I-ness comes and goes. Gitaji and Swamiji says, that this I- ness that keeps changing is unreal (impermanent) and therefore not our true Self (Gita 2:16)... If it is not our true Self then in reality, what is there to let go? In fact in deep sleep the I-ness does not stay ! Gitaji prescribes three paths to be free of I-ness - 1) Karmayog (path of action) - The Body/Mind are part of the world and the Self is a part of God. Turn the Body/Mind over to the world, since everything is acquired from the world. By doing everything only for the world, rendering service without the desire for it's fruits, i.e. renouncing the fruits, purifies the I-ness. 2) Jnanayog (path of knowledge)- Understanding and knowing through vivek (discrimination), that the inert (body/mind) etc. are unable to do anything for the Self. There is nothing the Self needs from the world / body / mind etc, thus knowing and becoming free of all desires, the I-ness perishes. 3) In Bhaktiyog (path of devotion)the I-ness changes. I am Bhagwaan's and only Bhagwaan is mine. Everything is Bhagwaan's and there is nothing else besides Bhagwaan. In Karmayog - I-ness purifies In Jnanayog - I-ness perishes In Bhaktiyog - I-ness changes The end result is being free of I-ness. With devotion, Meera Das ------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! If one is naturally inclined to Devotion to God, whatever God may mean in the beginning, then, have longing for God, let the mind be occupied with thoughts of God, let the body remain ready to serve God through serving all. Perform all rituals, like worship, chanting, meditation, all activities that remind you of God. Just God, God, God, whenever possible during the day or night. Above all don't worry about letting go of I or me. It will happen on its own when " I " stops trying to get rid of " I " itself, an impossible task. If one is given to actions, then perform all actions within the guidelines of Righteousness, with devotion uppermost on the mind, like an instrument in the hands of God, the Divinity, the Power, Intelligence, Love and Harmony. See that deeds are not performed by 'me " but the capacity, ability, set of skills given by the Grace of God to do His/Her work. You will see the " me " doer is replaced by " THE DOER " behind all doers! If one is inclined to use intellect, inquiry, path of knowledge, direct approach, then, Understanding based on experience is of great importance. Just see that I who wants to let go is the same I who has to go. It is not possible to do so, right? But to see/realize the fact: " oh, yes, it is the same I, that wants to get rid of " I-ness, or who is this I in the first place " ?, is the great leap in our understanding of letting it go. On this direct path, it is the Understanding of Truth behind all our experiences liberates us and not our doing anything. In all our doing the " me " gets involved due to ignorance and forms a veil around truth so that we just keep missing the TRUTH. For example, ask yourself a question: " What Am I " ? and pause, don't rush to answer with mind as all such answers overlook inner experience happening in the moment. All of a sudden, Truth will step in to steer you to see ITSELF. One may cry out, and say " oh, my God, I AM already here before I can even ask what am I, I know it for sure, I don't care who or how or why I am, but I AM is experiential certainty, aha " . " Now I know what scriptures mean, what Gita tells me about Atman, I am! " I know I have to be there before I can be anything or anyone like father, son, husband, wife or engineer, doctor, happy, unhappy etc. and when I am not any such upadhi I am still that I am! At this point, Gyani turns Bhakta who loves Truth unconditionally, rejoice in it! This Love for the Truth shows this devotee THE WAY to ITSELF! All objects of the world lead such a one to Bhagwaan by holding his hands, like a child is led by his father! The personal " I " is replaced by Impersonal " I " , the Totality, Functionality, Intelligence, Love, and Harmony in terms of helping and serving the Universe! Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------- By Understanding since understanding is the Key..... Once we understand, we get transformed.....the change starts.... It is a effortless process......there is nothing else to be done... Truth is like that......otherwise it is not the truth..... Once we understand the truth........that is it.....even with the I, Me, It is similar to learning science. Once you understand how Newton's law of motion works you will use them for good......Spirituality is the wisdom/rules of life that govern us.... Once we understand, we can not but change......just have faith and patience...to see it happen... Best wishes.... Sushil Jain ------------------------ Thanks for wonderful piece. Cape India ------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - ------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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