Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj and J. Krishnamurti - strikingly similarity

February 20, 2009

Dear Gita-peers,

Though my question does not pertain to the Gita directly, indirectly

it does. In Sadhna-Sudha-Sindhu and Sadhak-Sanjivani, Swamiji has

emphasized on 'karan-nirpeksha' way (no-mind or go-beyond-mind)

for self-realization. Surprisingly, J. Krishnamurti had been

insisting on 'go beyond mind' approach for the same purpose

throughout his life and talks.

I want to know whether Swamiji had ever met Krishinamuri or vice

versa. The latter had been to Rishikesh on couple of occasions.

I know that there is no disagreement amongst the self-realized

persons, these both great souls are very dear to my heart and I

shall be greatful if someone can throw some light on their meeting

together.

It will be also helpful to know other insights where they were

similar / dissimilar.

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

-------------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

12. No criticism of other sadhaks. Respect for all.

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

Post message:

Subscribe: -

Un: -

------------------------------

March 6, 2009

Dear Gita-peers,

Though my question does not pertain to the Gita directly, indirectly

it does. In Sadhna-Sudha-Sindhu and Sadhak-Sanjivani, Swamiji has

emphasized on 'karan-nirpeksha' way (no-mind or go-beyond-mind)

for self-realization. Surprisingly, J. Krishnamurti had been

insisting on 'go beyond mind' approach for the same purpose

throughout his life and talks.

I want to know whether Swamiji had ever met Krishinamuri or vice

versa. The latter had been to Rishikesh on couple of occasions.

I know that there is no disagreement amongst the self-realized

persons, these both great souls are very dear to my heart and I

shall be greatful if someone can throw some light on their meeting

together.

It will be also helpful to know other insights where they were

similar / dissimilar.

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

-------------------------------

NEW POSTING

Dear Sadhaka, Namaste!

It is the proof of ONE truth of our Being realized/experinced by such great

ones, and expressed in different words!

Krishnamurtiji rarely referred to God as such but used to point to Source,

Ground of all Being, Love, Intelligence!

Swamiji always used God, Supreme Consciousness, Paramatman, Nath as these were

more familiar to his Audience, I think.

Krishnamurtiji was also compared with Kabir, his teaching with non-dual Vedanta.

As he lived mostly in Western world, obviously his language is also geared

towards the audience!

I have also very great reverence for both the sages of our times!

Namaskar.....Pratap Bhatt

--------------------

Dear sadak,

Sri Krishna moorthy topic on death tells and refers Swamiji teachings as

example, going beyond mind. Now is it not good to follow their teaching to go

beyond mind? So why struggle within the mind whether they met or not. What is

going beyond mind? Desire-- Bagavan says in Geetha. Mind runs after a desire and

after fulfilment of that desire it wants more and more, but does not end.

Bagavan has said in Geetha it is like pouring Ghee in fire to estinguish it.

Today desire and emotions are fed with petrol. This fire becomes Vasana until

old age and death and to clear that Vasana, a new body is given, says Geetha. So

Punarapi Jananam Jatare Sayanam -- Ref: Bajagovindam

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

My knowledge about Sri Krishnamurtiji's writings it limited therefore please

forgive me if I am incorrect in my observations -

DISSIMILAR -

Sri Krishnamurtiji's angle was mostly from " Self " perspective - Gyani

perspective. Reliance and dependence on Self only. Pujya Swamiji, rarely

expressed his own thoughts / point of view. He only spoke what was stated in

the scriptures - Gita, Ramcharitramanas, other. He dealt with all angles

equally at stated in Gita - gyaani, karma, bhakta and others as all angles/path

can lead to bliss and realization of Truth.

Sri Krishnamurtiji did not deny God, but did not openly express much belief in

God (God he refers to as Super Intelligence). In fact on many occassion he

expressed that belief in God, is spreading misery in the world. Krishnamurtiji,

to my knowledge rarely spoke about any of the hindu scriptures. Swamiji spoken

only from the scriptures/Gita/Ramcharitramanas etc. Only Bhagwaan's words of

Truth and Knowledge.

Sri Krishnamurtiji expressed that intelligence was the way to a better life, and

there cannot be intelligence if there is belief. Belief divides people. My

understanding of Swamiji's message is that mind/intellect (and therefore

intelligence) are inert and apart from Self (Soul, Atman). That Self is nothing

but perfect knowledge. Belief in our True Essence at the Self level can direct

intellect, therefore intelligence towards perfection / perfect knowledge; Where

there is perfection " purnataah " there cannot be any division.

To Sri Krishnamurtiji Reality, Awareness, witnessing was the main theme.

Swamiji emphasized on IS-ness, existence as expressed in Gitaji as main theme,

and from a devotee's perspective everything was Bhagwaan's divine play (lila).

(more to follow if sadhaks are interested).

SIMILAR

Both agreed on " Silence " (of the mind) as True anubhava.

Meera Das

Ram Ram

--------------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

12. No criticism of other sadhaks. Respect for all.

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

Post message:

Subscribe: -

Un: -

------------------------------

March 9, 2009

Dear Gita-peers,Though my question does not pertain to the Gita directly, indirectlyit does. In Sadhna-Sudha-Sindhu and Sadhak-Sanjivani, Swamiji hasemphasized on 'karan-nirpeksha' way (no-mind or go-beyond-mind)for self-realization. Surprisingly, J. Krishnamurti had beeninsisting on 'go beyond mind' approach for the same purposethroughout his life and talks.I want to know whether Swamiji had ever met Krishinamuri or viceversa. The latter had been to Rishikesh on couple of occasions.I know that there is no disagreement amongst the self-realizedpersons, these both great souls are very dear to my heart and Ishall be greatful if someone can throw some light on their meetingtogether.It will be also helpful to know other insights where they weresimilar / dissimilar.Kind regards,Suresh C Sharma-------------------------------NEW POSTING

Respected Pratap Bhatt ji, B.Sathyanarayan ji and Meera Das ji,Thanks for your erudite and soothing comments. Please also allow me submit thatafter seeing so many comments on 'extra marital affairs' on this list, I was alittle taken aback that why no one is offering comments on my request.Swami Ramsukh Dasji maharaj is my breathing, J Krishnamurti is my 'awareness'and Gita-talks postings are my food. I request you all to pray to Lord Krishnato remove my 'my-ness' and dissolve it in His 'Is-ness', as with my efforts Ihave not been able to do it.With my head in your lotus feet,Suresh C. Sharma

-------------------------------

Dear sadhaks,

no doubt, trying to understand the self , has so many different approaches...... so many ways .... and all are valid ................ for, we are what we are , each one the divine Bindu on the vast circumference with an unlimited radius, and the Centre is ONE. The process of Pratyhara is the process of shortening the distance between you and God and is also termed as ' centering'.

In reality, there is neither a centre, nor a circumference . But, it helps the intellect to understand , and shed its obduracy or ignorance , necessarily a slow process .

What comes to mind is this : all saints and sages, Swami jee and Krishnamurthy jee included; their lives, their experiences, their words, only illustrate the Truth of the Ultimate Dissolution of the Mind. No Mind. And, the way to it .

This happens in a Flash. Happens when it happens . Is not subject to the Law of Cause and Effect( Doing) , and yet, alights as Grace not without much Doing ! Only after much Doing !

Each of us enjoys the journey even on the spiritual Path through one's own Mind or Swabhava. Some of us may choose to walk the shortest Path between our place on the Circumference and the Centre; while others may enjoy many fragrances by moving slightly away from the radius every now and then, and coming back to it again and again.

But the ultimate experience is No Mind.

Here are some thoughts on No Mind :

...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................

THOUGHTS ON NO-THOUGHT What is no-thought? Silence? Before the thought arose, there was silence; when the thought was no more, there was silence. How is it that I never became aware of this Silence? Could there be awareness of Thought, if there were no silence to support it? In the background? Does the Silence ever disappear? ………And Thought? What is a Thought? Words? A string of words? Where does word come from? Rise from? ……….. From Silence? When the word is no more, where does it go? Disappear into?……..Silence? When the word is no more, is it really no more? Could it have its entity even when it is no more?…… As silence? That, which is born from silence, is sustained by silence, dies into silence; can it be other than silence? Is Silence a word? A thought? Or, no- word? No-thought? Just `being'? And, now comes the rub! Why should you be reading these thoughts on No-thought? The knowers of silence say, "When silence is known, all is known. All you could desire is within your grasp. Silence is the intelligence, from which all wisdom flowers. It is the fulfilment of life; nay, all evolution." But As we read these words, our minds do not accept their truth, And, therefore, we continue Our game ,according to our concepts and conditionings, The game of herculian efforts, and what we feel are `achievements', `successes', Till one day, it dawns on us, totally tired and fagged out , that all we ever valued Did not have the power To give us what we were always seeking; and what we were seeking was only A moment's repose; Total, and absolute repose right Now. And It is right that it should be so; for all this is the play of Universal Consciousness, Which is What You are.

AUM

narinder bhandari

------------------------------

Suresh Sharmaji's question on Going Beyond Mind

Your question has been answered in Gita very explicitly when the verses describe the properties and behaviour of a person who has achieved Realization: One who is ego-less, desire-free, anger-free, fear-free and unperturbed and unaffected by external events, sees and treats everyone and everything with equanimity, always in peace. Can such a person behaviour be controlled by his mind? No. His mind must have become fully under his control and works in consistency with his above- mentioned features. Thus the realized soul is gone beyond the bonds of mind and made his mind a slave to his continuous state of peace free from desire, sensual pleasure, anger, fear and ego. So, all unrealised souls will say the same thing in different ways. If you concentrate only on those few verses describing the characteristics of successful Yogis, Sthitha-Pragyas and realized soul, you will know that they are no longer under the influence of mind, intellect and ego. Unlike them, most human beings work under the influence of ego, intellect and mind. We seek answers to questions that our minds desire, our intellect prompts and our ego has interest in. In the realized State, these questions die out completely : the realised soul has solved all his problems by getting rid of all such questions from his mind, intellect and ego. By knowing why the mind, intellect and ego ask these questions and do various kinds of things, the Realized soul does not require to be guided / influenced / controlled an ego any more, an intellect any more and a mind any more.

Basudeb Sen

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadhaka, Namaste!It is the proof of ONE truth of our Being realized/experinced by such greatones, and expressed in different words!Krishnamurtiji rarely referred to God as such but used to point to Source,Ground of all Being, Love, Intelligence!Swamiji always used God, Supreme Consciousness, Paramatman, Nath as these weremore familiar to his Audience, I think.Krishnamurtiji was also compared with Kabir, his teaching with non-dual Vedanta.As he lived mostly in Western world, obviously his language is also gearedtowards the audience!I have also very great reverence for both the sages of our times!Namaskar.....Pratap Bhatt--------------------Dear sadak,Sri Krishna moorthy topic on death tells and refers Swamiji teachings asexample, going beyond mind. Now is it not good to follow their teaching to gobeyond mind? So why struggle within the mind whether they met or not. What isgoing beyond mind? Desire-- Bagavan says in Geetha. Mind runs after a desire andafter fulfilment of that desire it wants more and more, but does not end.Bagavan has said in Geetha it is like pouring Ghee in fire to estinguish it.Today desire and emotions are fed with petrol. This fire becomes Vasana untilold age and death and to clear that Vasana, a new body is given, says Geetha. SoPunarapi Jananam Jatare Sayanam -- Ref: BajagovindamJai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan------------------------------Shree HariRam RamMy knowledge about Sri Krishnamurtiji's writings it limited therefore pleaseforgive me if I am incorrect in my observations -DISSIMILAR -Sri Krishnamurtiji's angle was mostly from "Self" perspective - Gyaniperspective. Reliance and dependence on Self only. Pujya Swamiji, rarelyexpressed his own thoughts / point of view. He only spoke what was stated inthe scriptures - Gita, Ramcharitramanas, other. He dealt with all anglesequally at stated in Gita - gyaani, karma, bhakta and others as all angles/pathcan lead to bliss and realization of Truth.Sri Krishnamurtiji did not deny God, but did not openly express much belief inGod (God he refers to as Super Intelligence). In fact on many occassion heexpressed that belief in God, is spreading misery in the world. Krishnamurtiji,to my knowledge rarely spoke about any of the hindu scriptures. Swamiji spokenonly from the scriptures/Gita/Ramcharitramanas etc. Only Bhagwaan's words ofTruth and Knowledge.Sri Krishnamurtiji expressed that intelligence was the way to a better life, andthere cannot be intelligence if there is belief. Belief divides people. Myunderstanding of Swamiji's message is that mind/intellect (and thereforeintelligence) are inert and apart from Self (Soul, Atman). That Self is nothingbut perfect knowledge. Belief in our True Essence at the Self level can directintellect, therefore intelligence towards perfection / perfect knowledge; Wherethere is perfection "purnataah" there cannot be any division.To Sri Krishnamurtiji Reality, Awareness, witnessing was the main theme. Swamiji emphasized on IS-ness, existence as expressed in Gitaji as main theme,and from a devotee's perspective everything was Bhagwaan's divine play (lila). (more to follow if sadhaks are interested).SIMILARBoth emphasized "Silence" (and going beyond the mind) . Swamiji emphasized non-acceptance of the mind as our true Self... and becoming "udaasin" - indifferent, detached, without fighting it and giving it importance. Meera DasRam Ram--------------------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.12. No criticism of other sadhaks. Respect for all.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - ------------------------------

March 10, 2009

Dear Gita-peers,Though my question does not pertain to the Gita directly, indirectlyit does. In Sadhna-Sudha-Sindhu and Sadhak-Sanjivani, Swamiji hasemphasized on 'karan-nirpeksha' way (no-mind or go-beyond-mind)for self-realization. Surprisingly, J. Krishnamurti had beeninsisting on 'go beyond mind' approach for the same purposethroughout his life and talks.I want to know whether Swamiji had ever met Krishinamuri or viceversa. The latter had been to Rishikesh on couple of occasions.I know that there is no disagreement amongst the self-realizedpersons, these both great souls are very dear to my heart and Ishall be greatful if someone can throw some light on their meetingtogether.It will be also helpful to know other insights where they weresimilar / dissimilar.Kind regards,Suresh C Sharma-------------------------------NEW POSTING

Hari OmSadhak Sureshji ! I would have definitely responded to you, had I heard even the name of J Krishnamurty before I read your message. What then can I say? You see, for last 2o/25 years, I have been reading only Swamiji and Scriptures referred by Him. Never felt any need, honestly. Even Swami Vivekanand , I used to read in the past his books very fondly, his books are now in upper shelves only, for a long time. I refer them only when Raaj Yoga is discussed, or when I need to confirm reg definitions of terms used in Patanjali Yoga Darsana. So is now the Taat Shree in life. Besides Him, it is Gita, Ramayana, Upanishads and Yoga Vaasistha. As regards your 'virtuous desire' - we all are with you. There is no need for any "efforts". Intense desire is more than enough. A sadhak should always be optimist towards his goal. This human birth is given only for that. There is no need for you to feel dejected. Whatever circumstances are there, they are sufficient enough to liberate you. Keep the fire burning.As far as silencing of mind is concerned- be sure all are unanimous, including Raaj Yogis !

By the way, your co-relating another question and involvement of sadhaks there, should or should not be taken by you as ignorance to 'YOUR' question? If you think deeply- what does it (co-relation) reflect? Can you discuss this aspect ? Do , if you can. What does this reflect in a sadhak? It is a subtle point not uncommon to sadhaks. Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B -----------------

Loving Divine,

Pranam.

Thanks & humble pranams to all who have already responded, excellent comments - on the mark! This is in response to Sureshji's complain in his 2nd posting. Sureshji, in your 1st posting you seemed more interested in the specifics of Swamiji & Krishnamurthiji's mtgs, do you expect people will respond to such things, honestly ask yourself, what one can say if they don't know the specifics? Lot of people have experience w/marriage - success or failure, so lot more people can relate to the issue & present their views but what to provide on the mtgs about which not many know, even it might not have happened, how can they answer? Even if it had happened, true sadhaks will not give much importance to it because it is establishing relationship with the bodies of these Divine souls, and not their teachings, is it fruitful in spiritual journey? Swamiji says not. So from your 1st post only no-mind thing can be answered but that was not your query any way!!! Still those who answered, have given perfect answers, hats off...

humble regards,

always at Thy Divine Feet

Manjula Patel

-----

Krishnamurty is not saying anything new.it is stated in the opening lines of yoga sutras of Patanjali and is the basis of Awareness Dhyan, often wrongly termed as meditation.beyond mind is consciousness, chaitana. A previous writer stated that krishnamurty said that belief in god spreads misery, well that is blatantly obvious if you care to read the daily newspapers and that is why we as hindus are so lucky as belief plays a minor role in our philosophy. When there is direct perception 'pratyaksh anumanagamaha' (yoga sutra 7) by going beyond mind then there is no space or need for belief. in the end all faith and belief must fall or be discarded otherwise what is the point?Jiddu krishnamurty was an enlightened master and true jagad guru, his teaching however is very mature, as is that of hinduism anyway, and for that reason not understood by all and therefore also not suitable for all especially those stuck in belief patterns. Hinduism demands an attitude of being open minded and promotes tolerance and inclusivityReligions demand an attitude of being closed minded and promote intolerance, exclusivity, divisions between believers and non believers.Educated hindus refer to religions of belief as 'Criminal political ideologies'Since when has it been virtuous to be a believer?ravi bakshi

PRIOR POSTING

Respected Pratap Bhatt ji, B.Sathyanarayan ji and Meera Das ji,Thanks for your erudite and soothing comments. Please also allow me submit thatafter seeing so many comments on 'extra marital affairs' on this list, I was alittle taken aback that why no one is offering comments on my request.Swami Ramsukh Dasji maharaj is my breathing, J Krishnamurti is my 'awareness'and Gita-talks postings are my food. I request you all to pray to Lord Krishnato remove my 'my-ness' and dissolve it in His 'Is-ness', as with my efforts Ihave not been able to do it.With my head in your lotus feet,Suresh C. Sharma

-------------------------------

Dear sadhaks,

no doubt, trying to understand the self , has so many different approaches...... so many ways .... and all are valid ................ for, we are what we are , each one the divine Bindu on the vast circumference with an unlimited radius, and the Centre is ONE. The process of Pratyhara is the process of shortening the distance between you and God and is also termed as ' centering'.

In reality, there is neither a centre, nor a circumference . But, it helps the intellect to understand , and shed its obduracy or ignorance , necessarily a slow process .

What comes to mind is this : all saints and sages, Swami jee and Krishnamurthy jee included; their lives, their experiences, their words, only illustrate the Truth of the Ultimate Dissolution of the Mind. No Mind. And, the way to it .

This happens in a Flash. Happens when it happens . Is not subject to the Law of Cause and Effect( Doing) , and yet, alights as Grace not without much Doing ! Only after much Doing !

Each of us enjoys the journey even on the spiritual Path through one's own Mind or Swabhava. Some of us may choose to walk the shortest Path between our place on the Circumference and the Centre; while others may enjoy many fragrances by moving slightly away from the radius every now and then, and coming back to it again and again.

But the ultimate experience is No Mind.

Here are some thoughts on No Mind :

...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................

THOUGHTS ON NO-THOUGHT What is no-thought? Silence? Before the thought arose, there was silence; when the thought was no more, there was silence. How is it that I never became aware of this Silence? Could there be awareness of Thought, if there were no silence to support it? In the background? Does the Silence ever disappear? ………And Thought? What is a Thought? Words? A string of words? Where does word come from? Rise from? ……….. From Silence? When the word is no more, where does it go? Disappear into?……..Silence? When the word is no more, is it really no more? Could it have its entity even when it is no more?…… As silence? That, which is born from silence, is sustained by silence, dies into silence; can it be other than silence? Is Silence a word? A thought? Or, no- word? No-thought? Just `being'? And, now comes the rub! Why should you be reading these thoughts on No-thought? The knowers of silence say, "When silence is known, all is known. All you could desire is within your grasp. Silence is the intelligence, from which all wisdom flowers. It is the fulfilment of life; nay, all evolution." But As we read these words, our minds do not accept their truth, And, therefore, we continue Our game ,according to our concepts and conditionings, The game of herculian efforts, and what we feel are `achievements', `successes', Till one day, it dawns on us, totally tired and fagged out , that all we ever valued Did not have the power To give us what we were always seeking; and what we were seeking was only A moment's repose; Total, and absolute repose right Now. And It is right that it should be so; for all this is the play of Universal Consciousness, Which is What You are.

AUM

narinder bhandari

------------------------------

Suresh Sharmaji's question on Going Beyond Mind

Your question has been answered in Gita very explicitly when the verses describe the properties and behaviour of a person who has achieved Realization: One who is ego-less, desire-free, anger-free, fear-free and unperturbed and unaffected by external events, sees and treats everyone and everything with equanimity, always in peace. Can such a person behaviour be controlled by his mind? No. His mind must have become fully under his control and works in consistency with his above- mentioned features. Thus the realized soul is gone beyond the bonds of mind and made his mind a slave to his continuous state of peace free from desire, sensual pleasure, anger, fear and ego. So, all unrealised souls will say the same thing in different ways. If you concentrate only on those few verses describing the characteristics of successful Yogis, Sthitha-Pragyas and realized soul, you will know that they are no longer under the influence of mind, intellect and ego. Unlike them, most human beings work under the influence of ego, intellect and mind. We seek answers to questions that our minds desire, our intellect prompts and our ego has interest in. In the realized State, these questions die out completely : the realised soul has solved all his problems by getting rid of all such questions from his mind, intellect and ego. By knowing why the mind, intellect and ego ask these questions and do various kinds of things, the Realized soul does not require to be guided / influenced / controlled an ego any more, an intellect any more and a mind any more.

Basudeb Sen

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadhaka, Namaste!It is the proof of ONE truth of our Being realized/experinced by such greatones, and expressed in different words!Krishnamurtiji rarely referred to God as such but used to point to Source,Ground of all Being, Love, Intelligence!Swamiji always used God, Supreme Consciousness, Paramatman, Nath as these weremore familiar to his Audience, I think.Krishnamurtiji was also compared with Kabir, his teaching with non-dual Vedanta.As he lived mostly in Western world, obviously his language is also gearedtowards the audience!I have also very great reverence for both the sages of our times!Namaskar.....Pratap Bhatt--------------------Dear sadak,Sri Krishna moorthy topic on death tells and refers Swamiji teachings asexample, going beyond mind. Now is it not good to follow their teaching to gobeyond mind? So why struggle within the mind whether they met or not. What isgoing beyond mind? Desire-- Bagavan says in Geetha. Mind runs after a desire andafter fulfilment of that desire it wants more and more, but does not end.Bagavan has said in Geetha it is like pouring Ghee in fire to estinguish it.Today desire and emotions are fed with petrol. This fire becomes Vasana untilold age and death and to clear that Vasana, a new body is given, says Geetha. SoPunarapi Jananam Jatare Sayanam -- Ref: BajagovindamJai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan------------------------------Shree HariRam RamMy knowledge about Sri Krishnamurtiji's writings it limited therefore pleaseforgive me if I am incorrect in my observations -DISSIMILAR -Sri Krishnamurtiji's angle was mostly from "Self" perspective - Gyaniperspective. Reliance and dependence on Self only. Pujya Swamiji, rarelyexpressed his own thoughts / point of view. He only spoke what was stated inthe scriptures - Gita, Ramcharitramanas, other. He dealt with all anglesequally at stated in Gita - gyaani, karma, bhakta and others as all angles/pathcan lead to bliss and realization of Truth.Sri Krishnamurtiji did not deny God, but did not openly express much belief inGod (God he refers to as Super Intelligence). In fact on many occassion heexpressed that belief in God, is spreading misery in the world. Krishnamurtiji,to my knowledge rarely spoke about any of the hindu scriptures. Swamiji spokenonly from the scriptures/Gita/Ramcharitramanas etc. Only Bhagwaan's words ofTruth and Knowledge.Sri Krishnamurtiji expressed that intelligence was the way to a better life, andthere cannot be intelligence if there is belief. Belief divides people. Myunderstanding of Swamiji's message is that mind/intellect (and thereforeintelligence) are inert and apart from Self (Soul, Atman). That Self is nothingbut perfect knowledge. Belief in our True Essence at the Self level can directintellect, therefore intelligence towards perfection / perfect knowledge; Wherethere is perfection "purnataah" there cannot be any division.To Sri Krishnamurtiji Reality, Awareness, witnessing was the main theme. Swamiji emphasized on IS-ness, existence as expressed in Gitaji as main theme,and from a devotee's perspective everything was Bhagwaan's divine play (lila). (more to follow if sadhaks are interested).SIMILARBoth emphasized "Silence" (and going beyond the mind) . Swamiji emphasized non-acceptance of the mind as our true Self... and becoming "udaasin" - indifferent, detached, without fighting it and giving it importance. Meera DasRam Ram--------------------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.12. No criticism of other sadhaks. Respect for all.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - ------------------------------

March 12, 2009

Dear Gita-peers,Though my question does not pertain to the Gita directly, indirectlyit does. In Sadhna-Sudha-Sindhu and Sadhak-Sanjivani, Swamiji hasemphasized on 'karan-nirpeksha' way (no-mind or go-beyond-mind)for self-realization. Surprisingly, J. Krishnamurti had beeninsisting on 'go beyond mind' approach for the same purposethroughout his life and talks.I want to know whether Swamiji had ever met Krishinamuri or viceversa. The latter had been to Rishikesh on couple of occasions.I know that there is no disagreement amongst the self-realizedpersons, these both great souls are very dear to my heart and Ishall be greatful if someone can throw some light on their meetingtogether.It will be also helpful to know other insights where they weresimilar / dissimilar.Kind regards,Suresh C Sharma-------------------------------NEW POSTING

I am surprised. Till now I was thinking that I might be the only Indian who loves both Swami ji and JK.

Teachings of Swami ji and JK- both reveals the same insight.

I heard one pravachan of swami ji, where someone referred to KRishnamurti and from response of swami ji, it appeared to me, that he was not familiar with Krishnamurti, or he might have misheard the question and sensing that it was irrelevant to what he was emphasizing on that day-he did not pay much attention to it, or might have forgotten about it.

I find Swami ji's teachings help one at all levels- bhakti and all, while JK's teachings might not be suitable to all.

Keval Satyanveshi

-----------

Dear Sadhak,Actually comparing 2 great souls means nothing for me, so I didnot respond.with Love,A sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

-----------

Respected Vyas ji,

Thank you so much for all the guidance and help.

I experience that my `I-ness' has been built by the society I have been born and now work with etc. `Janmanah jaayate shudrah sanskaaraat dwij uchyate' (one is born almost an animal, but with proper guidance, one becomes `re-born').

Therefore, my `I-ness' is an amalgamation of others' I-ness. If I live in the company of those who are full of `I, me and mine', my ego gets strengthened, and if I live in the company of those who are full of `God', my ego gets weakened and in the company of some (even while reading Swami Ramsukh Dasji and nearly always while reading posts on this forum) my `ego' gets watered down and there is a sense of `ever new peace'. My ego does not dissolve completely, hence I humbly requested more experienced sadhaks (I am sure many of you are sidhdha also, though you/they will not admit).

J. Krishnamurti and other modern agers like Nisarga Dutt Maharaj and HWL Punja convey the same thing. Swamiji Maharaj has very kindly hinted about `chuppi' (inner silence) in his Sadhak-Sudha-Sindhu. Hope I have cleared my point.

I will reply in detail (by evening) about my spiritual achievements under another `thread of talk' already being discussed on this God's list; I one of your emails, you have also urged many including me to speak about myself.

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari OmSadhak Sureshji ! I would have definitely responded to you, had I heard even the name of J Krishnamurty before I read your message. What then can I say? You see, for last 2o/25 years, I have been reading only Swamiji and Scriptures referred by Him. Never felt any need, honestly. Even Swami Vivekanand , I used to read in the past his books very fondly, his books are now in upper shelves only, for a long time. I refer them only when Raaj Yoga is discussed, or when I need to confirm reg definitions of terms used in Patanjali Yoga Darsana. So is now the Taat Shree in life. Besides Him, it is Gita, Ramayana, Upanishads and Yoga Vaasistha. As regards your 'virtuous desire' - we all are with you. There is no need for any "efforts". Intense desire is more than enough. A sadhak should always be optimist towards his goal. This human birth is given only for that. There is no need for you to feel dejected. Whatever circumstances are there, they are sufficient enough to liberate you. Keep the fire burning.As far as silencing of mind is concerned- be sure all are unanimous, including Raaj Yogis !

By the way, your co-relating another question and involvement of sadhaks there, should or should not be taken by you as ignorance to 'YOUR' question? If you think deeply- what does it (co-relation) reflect? Can you discuss this aspect ? Do , if you can. What does this reflect in a sadhak? It is a subtle point not uncommon to sadhaks. Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B -----------------

Loving Divine,

Pranam.

Thanks & humble pranams to all who have already responded, excellent comments - on the mark! This is in response to Sureshji's complain in his 2nd posting. Sureshji, in your 1st posting you seemed more interested in the specifics of Swamiji & Krishnamurthiji's mtgs, do you expect people will respond to such things, honestly ask yourself, what one can say if they don't know the specifics? Lot of people have experience w/marriage - success or failure, so lot more people can relate to the issue & present their views but what to provide on the mtgs about which not many know, even it might not have happened, how can they answer? Even if it had happened, true sadhaks will not give much importance to it because it is establishing relationship with the bodies of these Divine souls, and not their teachings, is it fruitful in spiritual journey? Swamiji says not. So from your 1st post only no-mind thing can be answered but that was not your query any way!!! Still those who answered, have given perfect answers, hats off...

humble regards,

always at Thy Divine Feet

Manjula Patel

-----

Krishnamurty is not saying anything new.it is stated in the opening lines of yoga sutras of Patanjali and is the basis of Awareness Dhyan, often wrongly termed as meditation.beyond mind is consciousness, chaitana. A previous writer stated that krishnamurty said that belief in god spreads misery, well that is blatantly obvious if you care to read the daily newspapers and that is why we as hindus are so lucky as belief plays a minor role in our philosophy. When there is direct perception 'pratyaksh anumanagamaha' (yoga sutra 7) by going beyond mind then there is no space or need for belief. in the end all faith and belief must fall or be discarded otherwise what is the point?Jiddu krishnamurty was an enlightened master and true jagad guru, his teaching however is very mature, as is that of hinduism anyway, and for that reason not understood by all and therefore also not suitable for all especially those stuck in belief patterns. Hinduism demands an attitude of being open minded and promotes tolerance and inclusivityReligions demand an attitude of being closed minded and promote intolerance, exclusivity, divisions between believers and non believers.Educated hindus refer to religions of belief as 'Criminal political ideologies'Since when has it been virtuous to be a believer?ravi bakshi

PRIOR POSTING

Respected Pratap Bhatt ji, B.Sathyanarayan ji and Meera Das ji,Thanks for your erudite and soothing comments. Please also allow me submit thatafter seeing so many comments on 'extra marital affairs' on this list, I was alittle taken aback that why no one is offering comments on my request.Swami Ramsukh Dasji maharaj is my breathing, J Krishnamurti is my 'awareness'and Gita-talks postings are my food. I request you all to pray to Lord Krishnato remove my 'my-ness' and dissolve it in His 'Is-ness', as with my efforts Ihave not been able to do it.With my head in your lotus feet,Suresh C. Sharma

-------------------------------

Dear sadhaks,

no doubt, trying to understand the self , has so many different approaches...... so many ways .... and all are valid ................ for, we are what we are , each one the divine Bindu on the vast circumference with an unlimited radius, and the Centre is ONE. The process of Pratyhara is the process of shortening the distance between you and God and is also termed as ' centering'.

In reality, there is neither a centre, nor a circumference . But, it helps the intellect to understand , and shed its obduracy or ignorance , necessarily a slow process .

What comes to mind is this : all saints and sages, Swami jee and Krishnamurthy jee included; their lives, their experiences, their words, only illustrate the Truth of the Ultimate Dissolution of the Mind. No Mind. And, the way to it .

This happens in a Flash. Happens when it happens . Is not subject to the Law of Cause and Effect( Doing) , and yet, alights as Grace not without much Doing ! Only after much Doing !

Each of us enjoys the journey even on the spiritual Path through one's own Mind or Swabhava. Some of us may choose to walk the shortest Path between our place on the Circumference and the Centre; while others may enjoy many fragrances by moving slightly away from the radius every now and then, and coming back to it again and again.

But the ultimate experience is No Mind.

Here are some thoughts on No Mind :

...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................

THOUGHTS ON NO-THOUGHT What is no-thought? Silence? Before the thought arose, there was silence; when the thought was no more, there was silence. How is it that I never became aware of this Silence? Could there be awareness of Thought, if there were no silence to support it? In the background? Does the Silence ever disappear? ………And Thought? What is a Thought? Words? A string of words? Where does word come from? Rise from? ……….. From Silence? When the word is no more, where does it go? Disappear into?……..Silence? When the word is no more, is it really no more? Could it have its entity even when it is no more?…… As silence? That, which is born from silence, is sustained by silence, dies into silence; can it be other than silence? Is Silence a word? A thought? Or, no- word? No-thought? Just `being'? And, now comes the rub! Why should you be reading these thoughts on No-thought? The knowers of silence say, "When silence is known, all is known. All you could desire is within your grasp. Silence is the intelligence, from which all wisdom flowers. It is the fulfilment of life; nay, all evolution." But As we read these words, our minds do not accept their truth, And, therefore, we continue Our game ,according to our concepts and conditionings, The game of herculian efforts, and what we feel are `achievements', `successes', Till one day, it dawns on us, totally tired and fagged out , that all we ever valued Did not have the power To give us what we were always seeking; and what we were seeking was only A moment's repose; Total, and absolute repose right Now. And It is right that it should be so; for all this is the play of Universal Consciousness, Which is What You are.

AUM

narinder bhandari

------------------------------

Suresh Sharmaji's question on Going Beyond Mind

Your question has been answered in Gita very explicitly when the verses describe the properties and behaviour of a person who has achieved Realization: One who is ego-less, desire-free, anger-free, fear-free and unperturbed and unaffected by external events, sees and treats everyone and everything with equanimity, always in peace. Can such a person behaviour be controlled by his mind? No. His mind must have become fully under his control and works in consistency with his above- mentioned features. Thus the realized soul is gone beyond the bonds of mind and made his mind a slave to his continuous state of peace free from desire, sensual pleasure, anger, fear and ego. So, all unrealised souls will say the same thing in different ways. If you concentrate only on those few verses describing the characteristics of successful Yogis, Sthitha-Pragyas and realized soul, you will know that they are no longer under the influence of mind, intellect and ego. Unlike them, most human beings work under the influence of ego, intellect and mind. We seek answers to questions that our minds desire, our intellect prompts and our ego has interest in. In the realized State, these questions die out completely : the realised soul has solved all his problems by getting rid of all such questions from his mind, intellect and ego. By knowing why the mind, intellect and ego ask these questions and do various kinds of things, the Realized soul does not require to be guided / influenced / controlled an ego any more, an intellect any more and a mind any more.

Basudeb Sen

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadhaka, Namaste!It is the proof of ONE truth of our Being realized/experinced by such greatones, and expressed in different words!Krishnamurtiji rarely referred to God as such but used to point to Source,Ground of all Being, Love, Intelligence!Swamiji always used God, Supreme Consciousness, Paramatman, Nath as these weremore familiar to his Audience, I think.Krishnamurtiji was also compared with Kabir, his teaching with non-dual Vedanta.As he lived mostly in Western world, obviously his language is also gearedtowards the audience!I have also very great reverence for both the sages of our times!Namaskar.....Pratap Bhatt--------------------Dear sadak,Sri Krishna moorthy topic on death tells and refers Swamiji teachings asexample, going beyond mind. Now is it not good to follow their teaching to gobeyond mind? So why struggle within the mind whether they met or not. What isgoing beyond mind? Desire-- Bagavan says in Geetha. Mind runs after a desire andafter fulfilment of that desire it wants more and more, but does not end.Bagavan has said in Geetha it is like pouring Ghee in fire to estinguish it.Today desire and emotions are fed with petrol. This fire becomes Vasana untilold age and death and to clear that Vasana, a new body is given, says Geetha. SoPunarapi Jananam Jatare Sayanam -- Ref: BajagovindamJai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan------------------------------Shree HariRam RamMy knowledge about Sri Krishnamurtiji's writings it limited therefore pleaseforgive me if I am incorrect in my observations -DISSIMILAR -Sri Krishnamurtiji's angle was mostly from "Self" perspective - Gyaniperspective. Reliance and dependence on Self only. Pujya Swamiji, rarelyexpressed his own thoughts / point of view. He only spoke what was stated inthe scriptures - Gita, Ramcharitramanas, other. He dealt with all anglesequally at stated in Gita - gyaani, karma, bhakta and others as all angles/pathcan lead to bliss and realization of Truth.Sri Krishnamurtiji did not deny God, but did not openly express much belief inGod (God he refers to as Super Intelligence). In fact on many occassion heexpressed that belief in God, is spreading misery in the world. Krishnamurtiji,to my knowledge rarely spoke about any of the hindu scriptures. Swamiji spokenonly from the scriptures/Gita/Ramcharitramanas etc. Only Bhagwaan's words ofTruth and Knowledge.Sri Krishnamurtiji expressed that intelligence was the way to a better life, andthere cannot be intelligence if there is belief. Belief divides people. Myunderstanding of Swamiji's message is that mind/intellect (and thereforeintelligence) are inert and apart from Self (Soul, Atman). That Self is nothingbut perfect knowledge. Belief in our True Essence at the Self level can directintellect, therefore intelligence towards perfection / perfect knowledge; Wherethere is perfection "purnataah" there cannot be any division.To Sri Krishnamurtiji Reality, Awareness, witnessing was the main theme. Swamiji emphasized on IS-ness, existence as expressed in Gitaji as main theme,and from a devotee's perspective everything was Bhagwaan's divine play (lila). (more to follow if sadhaks are interested).SIMILARBoth emphasized "Silence" (and going beyond the mind) . Swamiji emphasized non-acceptance of the mind as our true Self... and becoming "udaasin" - indifferent, detached, without fighting it and giving it importance. Meera DasRam Ram--------------------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.12. No criticism of other sadhaks. Respect for all.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - ------------------------------