Guest guest Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! There have been many postings on the subject " Duties of house holder... " , so I chose this, sort of a new topic. It is to build on Shashikalaji's comments on essence of " everything and anything " and use of viveka. The essence of all things, in our experience is just ONE, Undivided Consciousness! We can never experience " world out there including our own body " in itself, as absolute truth. We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them in the moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separate objects. Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. We can call it Vasudev, God, Atman, Paramatman, Reality, Consciousness or whatever name. This is called Absolute Truth of all our experiences, the true I! In jainism, they have term " NischayNaya " , I think. Soon after the perceptions, mind with memory, intellect, etc resolves the Wholeness into objects that we are familiar in practical life. So first perceptions, and then conceptions of objects with names happen in our experience! Names and forms are thus relative truth. It is here that we need to be guided by discrimination to have a proper perspective for each such object, so we can all function in the world of relativity. This is VyavaharNaya in Jainism, I think. When we deeply understand the Essence of all things, being ONE Reality, Paramtman, without a second Reality of thus perceived/conceived objeccts, we can function without attachments and thereby without suffering. In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of " myself " and objects are one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discrimination in dealing with them! Vedanta even goes on to say " knower of Brahman becomes Brahman " , Brahman being the Reality, the Essence of all! Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt --------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER 1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita, relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant to motivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path 2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study 3. Only one question at a time. 4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group's primary aim of deeper understanding of Gita. FOR RESPONDER 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! There have been many postings on the subject " Duties of house holder... " , so I chose this, sort of a new topic. It is to build on Shashikalaji's comments on essence of " everything and anything " and use of viveka. The essence of all things, in our experience is just ONE, Undivided Consciousness! We can never experience " world out there including our own body " in itself, as absolute truth. We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them in the moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separate objects. Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. We can call it Vasudev, God, Atman, Paramatman, Reality, Consciousness or whatever name. This is called Absolute Truth of all our experiences, the true I! In jainism, they have term " NischayNaya " , I think. Soon after the perceptions, mind with memory, intellect, etc resolves the Wholeness into objects that we are familiar in practical life. So first perceptions, and then conceptions of objects with names happen in our experience! Names and forms are thus relative truth. It is here that we need to be guided by discrimination to have a proper perspective for each such object, so we can all function in the world of relativity. This is VyavaharNaya in Jainism, I think. When we deeply understand the Essence of all things, being ONE Reality, Paramtman, without a second Reality of thus perceived/conceived objeccts, we can function without attachments and thereby without suffering. In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of " myself " and objects are one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discrimination in dealing with them! Vedanta even goes on to say " knower of Brahman becomes Brahman " , Brahman being the Reality, the Essence of all! Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt --------------------------- NEW POSTING -Shree Hari- Dear Pratap Bhatt, I read your article several times, and it made me think deeply, that is really good. It reminded me of things I meditated on, discussed and even experienced and so on. My mind went to Bhagavad Gita Ch.11 the revelation of Lord Krishna's Supreme form (Ishwara). Before I continue I would like to share something. I read the whole of the chapter, I was in a very focused state of mind, as I read the Holy Gita, something happened, yes I was reading it in English, but the language of it faded away, I felt as if I were right there in a strange way, I felt I was a privileged observer, the richness of the whole thing was fixed in my mind, hmmm, thats the best way my stumbling words can put it.(Most inadequately). Getting back to Getaji Ch 11, Arjuna saw Shri Krishna, who he considered to be a great friend, in an overpowering form, I presume only Arjuna witnessed this, or more correctly was given the gift to perceive Ishwara, his senses were confounded he was terrified, and then of course the vision left him. A friend of mine who was a walking encyclopedia, said that 90% of all we perceive is filtered out, otherwise we could not function.(I think I read that somewhere myself). My proviso is the focused mind can transcend these limitations, and the most powerful focus one can have is the 'The Divine Beloved'. B.G. 11 53. Neither by the Vedas, nor by austerity, nor by gift, nor by sacrifice, can I be seen in this form as you have seen me (so easily). 54. But by single-minded devotion can I, of this form, be known and seen in reality and also entered into, Arjuna! With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor) --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, A ray of light has 9 colors. But we see it as white. A minute dot of water try on your computer screen, it will reflect nine colours. The light is one but has 9 colours within. Jai Sri Kriahna B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ Jai Hanuman Mr Bhatt ! You said :In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of " myself " and objects are one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discrimination in dealing with them! Can you elaborate as to how considering reality of " What exists " (Self) and " what does not exist at all " (objects) - by considering them (existent and non existent) to be ONE in the beginning itself, " naturally guide me to discrimination/wisdom in dealing with them " ? Say, If I consider myself and body to be ONE in essence , how will I then discriminate? How the reality of yourself and objects is the same/one ? Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER 1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita, relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant to motivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path 2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study 3. Only one question at a time. 4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group's primary aim of deeper understanding of Gita. FOR RESPONDER 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! There have been many postings on the subject " Duties of house holder... " , so I chose this, sort of a new topic. It is to build on Shashikalaji's comments on essence of " everything and anything " and use of viveka. The essence of all things, in our experience is just ONE, Undivided Consciousness! We can never experience " world out there including our own body " in itself, as absolute truth. We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them in the moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separate objects. Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. We can call it Vasudev, God, Atman, Paramatman, Reality, Consciousness or whatever name. This is called Absolute Truth of all our experiences, the true I! In jainism, they have term " NischayNaya " , I think. Soon after the perceptions, mind with memory, intellect, etc resolves the Wholeness into objects that we are familiar in practical life. So first perceptions, and then conceptions of objects with names happen in our experience! Names and forms are thus relative truth. It is here that we need to be guided by discrimination to have a proper perspective for each such object, so we can all function in the world of relativity. This is VyavaharNaya in Jainism, I think. When we deeply understand the Essence of all things, being ONE Reality, Paramtman, without a second Reality of thus perceived/conceived objeccts, we can function without attachments and thereby without suffering. In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of " myself " and objects are one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discrimination in dealing with them! Vedanta even goes on to say " knower of Brahman becomes Brahman " , Brahman being the Reality, the Essence of all! Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt --------------------------- NEW POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram " Vasudeva Sarvam " " Everything is Paramatma (God) " is the ultimate of all knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this to be " Vigyaan " and balance all to be " Gyaan " ! To understand / realize the depth of this topic, sadhaks will have to be crisp, precise in stating scriptures. This is not a topic of only words and debate. Therefore please kindly pose specific questions and specific responses - crisply, concisely and precisely based on scriptures only. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------- Hari Om Pratapji ! I am sorry inspite of making efforts , I could not understand a lot of your Article. Hence I humbly seek elucidation by you on the first part of your article.. That should make the deliberations more productive, and fruitful, at least more comprehensible. I seek your forgiveness for being of duller intellect. Hope you will bless me with answers : 1 How do you say at the outset that we all are experiencing " undivided consciousness " ? Are we really ? I thought we are experiencing 'individual consciousness' only which means 'divided' and not 'undivided' ! 2 You said : We can never experience " world out there including our own body " in itself, as absolute truth. Out where? Why can't we experience the body as truth? Is not almost entire humanity experiencing the body as Self? For what Scriptures are struggling, otherwise? How it is relative? Relative to what? Where is the Q of absolute or relative Truth in " experiencing " ? " In itself " means in " which self " ? What is " itself " ? 3 You said: We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). We know what as perception ? Who is knowing? Who is that " we " ? What is IS-NESS ? Is it a state / attribute or the ONLY thing ? If it is an attribute then there must be an experiencer also ? If there is no experiencer then of what avail are the statements made by you so frequently such as " we experience, perceiver, perceived, we " etc ? How can consciousness ( chetana) in itself perceive? Perceive what when there is nothing except that ONLY existing? 4 Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them in the moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separate objects. Who is the experiencer( We) ? Is there any or there is " IS NESS ONLY " sans experiencer? How objects are same as IS NESS ? " THUS " means what? What have you stated in previous two/three sentences or more which makes you to conclude that nature of objects is same as that of " us " ? Too fast a conclusion , Sir ? Please state the basis for such conclusion ! Can objects also experience or perceive ? Do objects exist? If yes, then do they have same property as " we " (in your words) have? If no, where is the Q their being ONE with whole or having same property as " we " have ? Is " Consciousness " sentient or inert? Or neither of them? Where is the need for discrimination if both are sentient or both are inert ? Where is the need for Scriptures- if both YOGA and BHOGA are same? 5 You said: Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? What is your view? Are they same? If yes, how? If no, why not? If perceived, perception, and perceiver are same, then how the Q of their being same or not arises? Where does it arise? In whom does it arise? If they are not same, how there is ONE only ? 6 So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. " Experientially " - of whose experience, Pratapji ? How you have said " essentially " ? Is it so ? What makes them ONE experientially? Are we experiencing that? Is their any EXPERIENCER of that state of IS NESS (existence) or not ? Yes or No !! Pratapji ! Consider me as Devil's Advocate only and respond so that all may benefit - SATSANGA !! Beauty lies there !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Contemplate on Sant Jadabharat in Srimat Bagavath talking to king Raguguna on palanquin, saying " Oh king Raguguna, for me the palanquin, you and me are one and the same from same earth " . Can Sadaks pass their views in crisp. If everything and anything is same, where comes the question of Sri Krishna telling Arjuna to wage war with Kauravas. Here Arjuna is one and the other is Kauravas. But essence of everything and anything is correct. HOW? Jai Sri Krishana B.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! I really appreciate Mike and Shashikalaji for their feedback and response. It helps my own understanding really as it works as a booster shot! I relate to what Mike said while reading Ch 11 and appreciate it too in the same spirit. Let me answer the question raised by Shashikalaji! First of all my respects to her as she was the instrumental in making me share this post! In the beginning, we are told by Scriptures or Realized souls like Swamiji, you are not body-mind-sense complex, you are sentient and the world being inert. So disidentify with such objects as they are perishable while you are Imperishable Atman or Consciousness! When deeply contemplated, " you " (?) take your stand as Witnessing Presence within, relative to everything being witnessed(SakshiBhav). This is essential first step, The crown jewel of Discrimination (vivekchudamani) between what one is, Atman, Conscious Being, and everything witnessed, and both are apart. That which is perceived/conceived(body-mind-world) is distinct from all Perceiving Consciousness or Awareness. However, this is still relative truth as you are witness only relative to witnessed! Now comes Vasudev Sarvam or SarvatmaBhav! As you may appreciate by looking openly at our inner experience at the time of perceptions it is NEVER that of separate objects. It is one Wholeness because one sees so many objects and space containing them including one's own body, all at once. This is as if in a pitch dark room one sees only dense-mass of darkness, one cannot even see one's own body! All of a sudden light is turned on and one sees separate objects as if they are materialized from oneness of darkness surrounding them. Similarly we separate and conceive objects when we think " this is chair, this is table, this is another person, this is me etc. These very thoughts of ours have time and space embaded in them(Actually Consciousness creates time- space through us) so they help conceive separate objects we are familiar with outside. Nevertheless, they are experienced as subjective thoughts of those objects which we think are outside independently, not true. Such thoughts are Consciousness shaped up as those objects in all our exoeriences, just as water is shaped as waves in the ocean. In other words, an object has to be one with Consciousness in order for it to be experienced by us, Conscious Being! So all we really experience is Consciousness itself as body-mind and world. There is nothing else in our experience other than Consciousness, Reality, ISNESS! This very Consciousness is Absolute Existence, one Homogeneous mass, so to speak, experientially! IT is what we eseentially are, and It is not personal, is shared by each body- mind! As a matter of fact there is nothing personal in the entire cosmos! We are like a window for Absolute to see through us and enjoy ITSELF as World(leela)! This is Vasudev Sarvam! All there is is this Consciousness, Brahman! So when we say objects don't have existence, it means separate objects don't exist as they appear to be independent of our existence, however, Absolute Existence or BEINGNESS never ceases to be disguised as diversity, the meaning of BG Ch 2:16. No one has ever experienced world in itself, it has been always through being Conscious and as Consciousness. In and of itself everything is ONE UNDIVIDED BEINGNESS which Consciousness! Thus we deal with relative objects based on how they appear in our miinds, likes and dislikes due to conditioned by such objects taken real! However, with this understanding Relative world of objects are discriminated properly as you have suggested, and the biggest help is that we don't get attached to them and fall apart. Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING -Shree Hari- Dear Pratap Bhatt, I read your article several times, and it made me think deeply, that is really good. It reminded me of things I meditated on, discussed and even experienced and so on. My mind went to Bhagavad Gita Ch.11 the revelation of Lord Krishna's Supreme form (Ishwara). Before I continue I would like to share something. I read the whole of the chapter, I was in a very focused state of mind, as I read the Holy Gita, something happened, yes I was reading it in English, but the language of it faded away, I felt as if I were right there in a strange way, I felt I was a privileged observer, the richness of the whole thing was fixed in my mind, hmmm, thats the best way my stumbling words can put it.(Most inadequately). Getting back to Gitaji Ch 11, Arjuna saw Shri Krishna, who he considered to be a great friend, in an overpowering form, I presume only Arjuna witnessed this, or more correctly was given the gift to perceive Ishwara, his senses were confounded he was terrified, and then of course the vision left him. A friend of mine who was a walking encyclopedia, said that 90% of all we perceive is filtered out, otherwise we could not function.(I think I read that somewhere myself). My proviso is the focused mind can transcend these limitations, and the most powerful focus one can have is the 'The Divine Beloved'. B.G. 11 53. Neither by the Vedas, nor by austerity, nor by gift, nor by sacrifice, can I be seen in this form as you have seen me (so easily). 54. But by single-minded devotion can I, of this form, be known and seen in reality and also entered into, Arjuna! With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor) --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, A ray of light has 9 colors. But we see it as white. A minute dot of water try on your computer screen, it will reflect nine colours. The light is one but has 9 colours within. Jai Sri Kriahna B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ Jai Hanuman Mr Bhatt ! You said :In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of " myself " and objects are one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discrimination in dealing with them! Can you elaborate as to how considering reality of " What exists " (Self) and " what does not exist at all " (objects) - by considering them (existent and non existent) to be ONE in the beginning itself, " naturally guide me to discrimination/wisdom in dealing with them " ? Say, If I consider myself and body to be ONE in essence , how will I then discriminate? How the reality of yourself and objects is the same/one ? Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER 1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita, relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant to motivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path 2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study 3. Only one question at a time. 4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group's primary aim of deeper understanding of Gita. FOR RESPONDER 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram " Vasudeva Sarvam " " Everything is Paramatma (God) " is the ultimate of all knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this to be " Vigyaan " and balance all to be " Gyaan " ! To understand / realize the depth of this topic, sadhaks will have to be crisp, precise in stating scriptures. This is not a topic of only words and debate. Therefore please kindly pose specific questions and specific responses - crisply, concisely and precisely based on scriptures only. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! There have been many postings on the subject " Duties of house holder... " , so I chose this, sort of a new topic. It is to build on Shashikalaji's comments on essence of " everything and anything " and use of viveka. The essence of all things, in our experience is just ONE, Undivided Consciousness! We can never experience " world out there including our own body " in itself, as absolute truth. We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them in the moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separate objects. Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. We can call it Vasudev, God, Atman, Paramatman, Reality, Consciousness or whatever name. This is called Absolute Truth of all our experiences, the true I! In jainism, they have term " NischayNaya " , I think. Soon after the perceptions, mind with memory, intellect, etc resolves the Wholeness into objects that we are familiar in practical life. So first perceptions, and then conceptions of objects with names happen in our experience! Names and forms are thus relative truth. It is here that we need to be guided by discrimination to have a proper perspective for each such object, so we can all function in the world of relativity. This is VyavaharNaya in Jainism, I think. When we deeply understand the Essence of all things, being ONE Reality, Paramtman, without a second Reality of thus perceived/conceived objeccts, we can function without attachments and thereby without suffering. In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of " myself " and objects are one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discrimination in dealing with them! Vedanta even goes on to say " knower of Brahman becomes Brahman " , Brahman being the Reality, the Essence of all! Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt --------------------------- NEW POSTING " Vasudeva Sarvam " " Everything is Paramatma (God) " is the ultimate of all knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this to be " Vigyaan " and balance all to be " Gyaan " ! What a wonderful statement! We most often jump around considering " Gnyaana " itself as " Vignyaana " !! Brihadaaranyaka (4.2.12) makes an acute observation on this. Yagnyavalkya concludes that, " No gnyaana can ever be present in Moksha " . Everything is THAT VIGNYAANA alone. He calls IT " Vignyaanaghana " - purest essence of all intelligence. We often get carried away by our informative relational rationale to address the same. Vasudeva includes everything ... there is no room outside Him. Pl. refer to Vishwarupa Darshana Yoga. HE includes Duryodhana and the gang as much as the Yudhishthira and the gang. HE includes the most powerful of all as much as the weakest of all. HE includes the richest as much as the poorest. No parameter in any dimension can ever outrange HIM! The discrimination and rationale can rule only the domain of Gnyaana ... not The Vignyaana. Again, it is an opinion projected through the mechanism of Gnyaana ... therefore, pl. treat it just that way. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- MEW POSTING Vasudevah Sarvam - The Essence of ALL The essence of everything is THAT, The Absolute. The Matter IS THAT, but some matter trapped in a perceived body is NOT. The Energy IS THAT, but some energy trapped in a packet of matter is NOT. The Action IS THAT, but an action trapped in a packet of matter and energy is NOT. The Thought IS THAT, but a thought trapped in an action is NOT. The Experience IS THAT, but an experience trapped in a thought is NOT. The Happiness IS THAT, but a happiness trapped in an experience is NOT. The Essence of all the joys IS The Essence of all the experiences IS The Essence of all the thoughts IS The Essence of all the actions IS The Essence of all the bodies IS The Essence of all the energy IS The Essence of all the matter IS .... ... ... The essence of anything IS .... ... ... The essence of everything IS The Essence of ALL. The Absolute. The Truth. Vasudevah Sarvam. Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Naga Narayanaji, Some further clarity needed on second note. If Everything is Vasudeva (Gita 7:19), then is there a " is Not " as such? " Sadsacchaahamarjun. " (Gita 9:19), " I am Being (sat, real) and Non-being (asat, unreal) both. " When there is nothing else besides Vasudeva, then where is the question of IS NOT? is unclear.... From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------- Sadhakas, Namaste! It is a great privilege to be part of this wisdom platform sharing with each other and learning along the way by bringing in experiences in light of scriptural injunctions or pointers from spiritual teachers! As Vyasji put it, then, we can have more meaningful deliberations. With deep respects and divine friendship, I would answer the questions posed by Vyasji as best as I can through the words. It will be better to break them in different posts. 1. How can we experience undivided Consciousness at the outset? We do experience as such, it is just not noticed that way. Consciousness appears to be divided as many objects, split second later, after initial perception. Consciousness cannot be divided, only seems to be so like a movie characters seem to divide ONE light. Attraction for the seen objects distracts us from the non- divisible SEER of all objects! If one notices one doesn't see a particular object initially, one sees as if the view in front of our eyes is totally enveloped in the space surrounding it, as if in the ocean of space, we see waves of forms, upon initial perceptions by senses as raw sensations. This ocean of space itself is in the ocean of Consciousness, so to speak, as only a Conscious Being can perceive such space. However, thought arises " I see a chair there " . Notice, when this is said, the time of initial perception is elapsed, so our recognizing a particular object is in time-space fabric, an integral part of the thought " I see a chair " , chair being from past memory! By the time we recognize, it is already past, as all such thoughts are. We can never know the separate objects without such thoughts and when we know they are past. Object-thoughts are like waves in the Ocean of Consciousness, so all objects including body we call ours are thoughts-Consciousness in our actual experience. The statement " I see a chair " is not our experience in this sense, but is conceptualization of wholeness of experience for the sake of language. Only seeing which is being conscious of, is experiential, I-thought as individual is identification with body-mind of Consciousness and Chair-thought is memory. THAT Which is experiential is always with us, and is Consciousness Itself, where as experiences of objects as thoughts are fleeting! It is, as though, from Totality of view in front of us, we are extracting each object by offering it space and time to exist in our thoughts-mind, in what seems to be division into many objects. Please see this fact: our thoughts manifest objects! When we are not conscious of objects, they remain non-manifest as in deep sleep! As this part of our experience is not noticed and deeply contemplated upon, we see only separate objects and forgetting that separate objects are in mind as thoughts in terms of words(names being time dimension and shape being space dimension). Also it is to be noticed that these objects are Consciousness of them, totally subjective in nature because objects don't participate in our re-cognition of them. No objects tells us what it is, only we call them this or that. If we call cat a dog, or dog a cat, nothing happens to them intrinsically. In otherwords, dog is true only relative to everything else we know that is " not dog-like " . Thus all names are dependent on our agreement to call them as such so we can function and discriminate relatively, it is just a pragmatism only. A dog or any name for that matter is not absolute truth of the object as referred to by that name. In absolute Truth everything has to be undivided, and nameless ONE which we call Existence, Is- ness intrinsic to all objects, and is referred to as SELF, Atman in the context of sentient beings meaning Existence that knows Itself, self-evident Light of Consciousness, Being is " consciousness of being " and consciousness is " being " . Sat is Chit and Chit is Sat and is everyone's experience all the time even if not noticed as in deep sleep! And " we " are THAT Absolutely! This is Vedanta proclamation! PS: Consciousness as I used it above is THAT Absolute Existence which perceives through each body-mind all objects, while ITSELF remaining non-perceivable ever through senses and mind. However, it is ever present, deep rooted PRESENCE in us of Existence by which all else is known. IT is the ultimate Knowingness! It is our True I, we, they, all such pronouns, we use for ourselves, but are taken as individuals. Finally all such words including Consciousness too are concepts, but useful to point to TRUTH, which can only be pointed to our BEING- NESS! This may answer some questions, more later ....Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt ---------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! More on Vyasji's questions: Pardon me, I have to repeat some points, no choice! We cannot experience the world " out there " , means the world we think is external to us by thinking our body ends at the surface of outer skin. The world and body appear in our Consciousness as perceptions, so we only experience our perceptions of world, and body. " Body " is name given to being conscious of sensations, feelings of pains, discomforts, sensual pleasures etc, Such body is " my body " is also due to identification with such feelings and sensations calling it " me " , and is thus not experiential. If all these are seen as appearances in Consciousness, and knowingly identify with Consciousness as I, the seer of all that is " seen " , the discrimination happens. Next the world and body experienced inwardly is found to be consisting of Consciousness only. Then one can say " I am not this body, but this body, along with all other bodies, are in " ME " as Consciousness, All bodies are mine! This is what Vasudevah Sarvam to me. This is because anything one experiences is at once at a zero distance from Consciouseness! Our connection to the apparent world and body is only through this Consciousness, Chaitanya! For instance, a thought about a chair originates, is sustained and dissolves in us without ever touching the outside chair! So chair we experioence is chair-thought only, not the chaor in itself! Everything as a whole is Divine SELF, not an individual body taken exclusively as mine! The body, mind and the World are in ME as Krishna says, but I am not in them if taken as individual objects. Now the real outside world in and of itself cannot be named as separate objects, because then it is from the mind-names-forms only. This nameless reality is Brahman, The absolute, THAT, Ishwara, or whatever name we give, is in reality nameless or all names are only HIS names! IF we name objects, then, from mind only we can do so, and thus ones is relative to others. No named object can stand on its own leg as absolute truth, it needs the legs of others to stand and validate it. Oneness is Reality of experience and the separate objects are concepts and thus to be discriminated for what its worth based on pragmatism! Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Meditation continues in the form of answers to Vyasji's questions with deep appreciation! Hopefully last two posts with this one cover most of the remaining ones from no 3 onward! When I refer to we or I or any pronouns it means Consciousness or Atman that we are, the only Reality. However, we need to refer to us individually for communication purpose and many practical reasons. In this spirit it is Consciousness as Sadhakas are questioning and answering! Anything we know is Consciousness knowing Itself only because ultimate Knower is THAT as us, and what is known are appearances as such made up of thoughts as mind and feelings as bodily sensations, all perceived objects! Consciousness-Atman is the experience of Conscious Existence, indwelling Presence, Isness, and is self evident, no other knower needed to know this Presence or ISNess. It is not a state, or attribute. It is what it IS! As said before, It perceives only Itself as undivided(God sees everything God only, to God there is not everything else). This is said to emphasize the self-effulgence, self-luminous aspect, not attribute. This Perception is the whole and not time-space bound so it is not created, nor destroyed. However, when we separate It as objects by conceiving through thoughts in time-space fabric, specific object thus conceived can end in time, but its Beingness cannot be destroyed as it belongs to Totality from which it emerged and into which it dissolves! When I use " We perceive " , I mean we as Consciousness perceives and endows mind to conceive objects so that Leela can go on! We manifest everything out of ONE thing by conceiving through mind this Totality just as spider weaves web out of itself and then winds it in itself! This is our freedom to be Individual too! Can another object perceive? no, object itself is perceived. Only Consciousness being chaitanya perceives. By Perception, I mean raw sensations-data that sense-complex in the presence of Atman seems to produce as Consciousness of ????. Conception is what I call perceptions resolved as objects with mind- intellect and when such mind assumes itself as knower, it is EGO/Jeeva, considering it as separate reality of beig subject apart from Real KNOWER! Nature of objects perceived/conceived are thus experienced by us only as Consciousness, but we equate such objects with outside objects for which we have no direct knowledge. We only experience our perceptions of the world which are subjective only, never the world itself! In otherwords, world cannot be perceived independent of Consciousness in our experience! The way I use " experience " is that it is discrete, has beginning with objects perceived as thoughts/feelings and end only to replace with another such objects. " Experiential " to me, is that which is continuous, never begins or ends, is subjective in nature but free of attributes of pairs of opposites, shines attributes-gunas of objects, always present as background or substratum of all appearances. It is Consciousness that IS or Brahman! Perceived and Perceiving Consciousness-Atman are same in the sense that waves are perceived while ocean is perceiving Itself. For the purpose of Leela, play, or Maya principle Consciousness forgets and considers appearances as Real until It chooses to end the game in some apparent birth and returns Home apparently as It never left Home! Maya is not a problem, to consider it as Real is the problem! I think these answers questions on the path starting with oneself to reach ONE SELF, from SakshiBhav to SarvatmBhav, from " me " to ME, from personal being to Impersonal BEING and finally feel Vasudev Sarvam! I remain open to further dialogues! Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt - PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Pratapji ! I am sorry inspite of making efforts , I could not understand a lot of your Article. Hence I humbly seek elucidation by you on the first part of your article.. That should make the deliberations more productive, and fruitful, at least more comprehensible. I seek your forgiveness for being of duller intellect. Hope you will bless me with answers : 1 How do you say at the outset that we all are experiencing " undivided consciousness " ? Are we really ? I thought we are experiencing 'individual consciousness' only which means 'divided' and not 'undivided' ! 2 You said : We can never experience " world out there including our own body " in itself, as absolute truth. Out where? Why can't we experience the body as truth? Is not almost entire humanity experiencing the body as Self? For what Scriptures are struggling, otherwise? How it is relative? Relative to what? Where is the Q of absolute or relative Truth in " experiencing " ? " In itself " means in " which self " ? What is " itself " ? 3 You said: We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). We know what as perception ? Who is knowing? Who is that " we " ? What is IS-NESS ? Is it a state / attribute or the ONLY thing ? If it is an attribute then there must be an experiencer also ? If there is no experiencer then of what avail are the statements made by you so frequently such as " we experience, perceiver, perceived, we " etc ? How can consciousness ( chetana) in itself perceive? Perceive what when there is nothing except that ONLY existing? 4 Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them in the moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separate objects. Who is the experiencer( We) ? Is there any or there is " IS NESS ONLY " sans experiencer? How objects are same as IS NESS ? " THUS " means what? What have you stated in previous two/three sentences or more which makes you to conclude that nature of objects is same as that of " us " ? Too fast a conclusion , Sir ? Please state the basis for such conclusion ! Can objects also experience or perceive ? Do objects exist? If yes, then do they have same property as " we " (in your words) have? If no, where is the Q their being ONE with whole or having same property as " we " have ? Is " Consciousness " sentient or inert? Or neither of them? Where is the need for discrimination if both are sentient or both are inert ? Where is the need for Scriptures- if both YOGA and BHOGA are same? 5 You said: Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? What is your view? Are they same? If yes, how? If no, why not? If perceived, perception, and perceiver are same, then how the Q of their being same or not arises? Where does it arise? In whom does it arise? If they are not same, how there is ONE only ? 6 So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. " Experientially " - of whose experience, Pratapji ? How you have said " essentially " ? Is it so ? What makes them ONE experientially? Are we experiencing that? Is their any EXPERIENCER of that state of IS NESS (existence) or not ? Yes or No !! Pratapji ! Consider me as Devil's Advocate only and respond so that all may benefit - SATSANGA !! Beauty lies there !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Contemplate on Sant Jadabharat in Srimat Bagavath talking to king Raguguna on palanquin, saying " Oh king Raguguna, for me the palanquin, you and me are one and the same from same earth " . Can Sadaks pass their views in crisp. If everything and anything is same, where comes the question of Sri Krishna telling Arjuna to wage war with Kauravas. Here Arjuna is one and the other is Kauravas. But essence of everything and anything is correct. HOW? Jai Sri Krishana B.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! I really appreciate Mike and Shashikalaji for their feedback and response. It helps my own understanding really as it works as a booster shot! I relate to what Mike said while reading Ch 11 and appreciate it too in the same spirit. Let me answer the question raised by Shashikalaji! First of all my respects to her as she was the instrumental in making me share this post! In the beginning, we are told by Scriptures or Realized souls like Swamiji, you are not body-mind-sense complex, you are sentient and the world being inert. So disidentify with such objects as they are perishable while you are Imperishable Atman or Consciousness! When deeply contemplated, " you " (?) take your stand as Witnessing Presence within, relative to everything being witnessed(SakshiBhav). This is essential first step, The crown jewel of Discrimination (vivekchudamani) between what one is, Atman, Conscious Being, and everything witnessed, and both are apart. That which is perceived/conceived(body-mind-world) is distinct from all Perceiving Consciousness or Awareness. However, this is still relative truth as you are witness only relative to witnessed! Now comes Vasudev Sarvam or SarvatmaBhav! As you may appreciate by looking openly at our inner experience at the time of perceptions it is NEVER that of separate objects. It is one Wholeness because one sees so many objects and space containing them including one's own body, all at once. This is as if in a pitch dark room one sees only dense-mass of darkness, one cannot even see one's own body! All of a sudden light is turned on and one sees separate objects as if they are materialized from oneness of darkness surrounding them. Similarly we separate and conceive objects when we think " this is chair, this is table, this is another person, this is me etc. These very thoughts of ours have time and space embaded in them(Actually Consciousness creates time- space through us) so they help conceive separate objects we are familiar with outside. Nevertheless, they are experienced as subjective thoughts of those objects which we think are outside independently, not true. Such thoughts are Consciousness shaped up as those objects in all our exoeriences, just as water is shaped as waves in the ocean. In other words, an object has to be one with Consciousness in order for it to be experienced by us, Conscious Being! So all we really experience is Consciousness itself as body-mind and world. There is nothing else in our experience other than Consciousness, Reality, ISNESS! This very Consciousness is Absolute Existence, one Homogeneous mass, so to speak, experientially! IT is what we eseentially are, and It is not personal, is shared by each body- mind! As a matter of fact there is nothing personal in the entire cosmos! We are like a window for Absolute to see through us and enjoy ITSELF as World(leela)! This is Vasudev Sarvam! All there is is this Consciousness, Brahman! So when we say objects don't have existence, it means separate objects don't exist as they appear to be independent of our existence, however, Absolute Existence or BEINGNESS never ceases to be disguised as diversity, the meaning of BG Ch 2:16. No one has ever experienced world in itself, it has been always through being Conscious and as Consciousness. In and of itself everything is ONE UNDIVIDED BEINGNESS which Consciousness! Thus we deal with relative objects based on how they appear in our miinds, likes and dislikes due to conditioned by such objects taken real! However, with this understanding Relative world of objects are discriminated properly as you have suggested, and the biggest help is that we don't get attached to them and fall apart. Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING -Shree Hari- Dear Pratap Bhatt, I read your article several times, and it made me think deeply, that is really good. It reminded me of things I meditated on, discussed and even experienced and so on. My mind went to Bhagavad Gita Ch.11 the revelation of Lord Krishna's Supreme form (Ishwara). Before I continue I would like to share something. I read the whole of the chapter, I was in a very focused state of mind, as I read the Holy Gita, something happened, yes I was reading it in English, but the language of it faded away, I felt as if I were right there in a strange way, I felt I was a privileged observer, the richness of the whole thing was fixed in my mind, hmmm, thats the best way my stumbling words can put it.(Most inadequately). Getting back to Gitaji Ch 11, Arjuna saw Shri Krishna, who he considered to be a great friend, in an overpowering form, I presume only Arjuna witnessed this, or more correctly was given the gift to perceive Ishwara, his senses were confounded he was terrified, and then of course the vision left him. A friend of mine who was a walking encyclopedia, said that 90% of all we perceive is filtered out, otherwise we could not function.(I think I read that somewhere myself). My proviso is the focused mind can transcend these limitations, and the most powerful focus one can have is the 'The Divine Beloved'. B.G. 11 53. Neither by the Vedas, nor by austerity, nor by gift, nor by sacrifice, can I be seen in this form as you have seen me (so easily). 54. But by single-minded devotion can I, of this form, be known and seen in reality and also entered into, Arjuna! With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor) --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, A ray of light has 9 colors. But we see it as white. A minute dot of water try on your computer screen, it will reflect nine colours. The light is one but has 9 colours within. Jai Sri Kriahna B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ Jai Hanuman Mr Bhatt ! You said :In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of " myself " and objects are one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discrimination in dealing with them! Can you elaborate as to how considering reality of " What exists " (Self) and " what does not exist at all " (objects) - by considering them (existent and non existent) to be ONE in the beginning itself, " naturally guide me to discrimination/wisdom in dealing with them " ? Say, If I consider myself and body to be ONE in essence , how will I then discriminate? How the reality of yourself and objects is the same/one ? Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER 1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita, relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant to motivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path 2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study 3. Only one question at a time. 4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group's primary aim of deeper understanding of Gita. FOR RESPONDER 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram " Vasudeva Sarvam " " Everything is Paramatma (God) " is the ultimate of all knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this to be " Vigyaan " and balance all to be " Gyaan " ! To understand / realize the depth of this topic, sadhaks will have to be crisp, precise in stating scriptures. This is not a topic of only words and debate. Therefore please kindly pose specific questions and specific responses - crisply, concisely and precisely based on scriptures only. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! There have been many postings on the subject " Duties of house holder... " , so I chose this, sort of a new topic. It is to build on Shashikalaji's comments on essence of " everything and anything " and use of viveka. The essence of all things, in our experience is just ONE, Undivided Consciousness! We can never experience " world out there including our own body " in itself, as absolute truth. We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them in the moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separate objects. Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. We can call it Vasudev, God, Atman, Paramatman, Reality, Consciousness or whatever name. This is called Absolute Truth of all our experiences, the true I! In jainism, they have term " NischayNaya " , I think. Soon after the perceptions, mind with memory, intellect, etc resolves the Wholeness into objects that we are familiar in practical life. So first perceptions, and then conceptions of objects with names happen in our experience! Names and forms are thus relative truth. It is here that we need to be guided by discrimination to have a proper perspective for each such object, so we can all function in the world of relativity. This is VyavaharNaya in Jainism, I think. When we deeply understand the Essence of all things, being ONE Reality, Paramtman, without a second Reality of thus perceived/conceived objeccts, we can function without attachments and thereby without suffering. In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of " myself " and objects are one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discrimination in dealing with them! Vedanta even goes on to say " knower of Brahman becomes Brahman " , Brahman being the Reality, the Essence of all! Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt --------------------------- NEW POSTING Q: When there is nothing else besides Vasudeva, then where is the question of IS NOT? is unclear.... I agree ... there is no room for " IS NOT " ever. THAT IS CORRECT. The Asat by its very nature is " unreal " and hence " non-existent " on its own. How can a non-existent be anything at all?! That is nothing but nothing!! The " IS NOT " is just a figment of our imagination when we try to contain everything that we perceive within the boundaries of our cognition. The very presence of " IS NOT " just reminds us that we are NOT in The Vignyaana but trapped within our cognitive dependence. Till cognitive dependence rules, whatever perceived DOES NOT LOOK LIKE " SAT " , THE REAL to a true seeker - because, the cognition keeps changing the perceived perpetually. It is in this context, all the wise saints say " NETI " ... " IS NOT " is a necessity for seeking Truth till Asat leaves no traces in our presence. That is the only fool-proof way of realizing our ignorance in believing the limited cognitive perception itself as " the reality " . Once the Asat is mitigated encore, ONLY SAT stays, ONLY VIGNYAANA remains, ONLY TRUTH prevails. Applying the essence of appreciation backwards in our daily life, one would then say that " the so-called Asat " is also THAT alone. That means, " The Asat " is non-existent whether we acknowledge or not. Such an understanding can come only after attaining the Tattva. To start with ... under dominion of the discrimination anything perceived cannot be THE COMPLETE as the preception leaves out infinitude beyond itself. But once The Absolute is attained, THAT alone is prevalent in everything. The very notion of the Asat is mitigated encore and hence one need not verify anything as Sat anymore. My most favorite example for this is from Swamiji ( " Bhagavattattva " in Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga): For a mundane person, the Asat is as crisp and clear as a solid line drawn on a solid rock (NETI is extremely necessary here). For a truthful seeker of truth, in the beginning, it becomes like a line drawn on sand (Still NETI remains important for progress). For a truth seeker in whom the wisdom has bloomed, its is like a line drawn on water (NETI fades away as the SAT prevails). For a Tattvagnya who is permanently established in The Vignyaana that Swamiji refers to, the Asat, the unreal is truly as unreal and illusive as a line drawn in space ... IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST! Then where is the question of IS NOT when we contemplate on " Vaasudevah Sarvam " ? You are right ... then ... " IS NOT " is absolutely irrelevant; IS alone is relevant as well as prevalent. As you correctly pointed out in your note, most of us (at least I am clear about myself) are NOT EVEN FIT to talk about THAT as I am nowhere near THAT ... ONLY REALIZED ONES such as Swamiji can talk on such matter. However, if I have to contemplate on such an idea, I AM BOUND TO BE TRUTHFUL TO THE IDEA RECEIVED IN AS MUCH CLARITY AND TRANSPARENCY AS POSSIBLE - THAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY. As Swamiji says while teaching us how to apply discrimination ( " Vibhaga Yoga " , in Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga), we should adapt the truthful appreciation that we perceive in the realized ones truthfully ... at least while contemplating on THAT if not all the time! That is my limited understanding on this. If you want more, I am afraid, the only way is to invoke The Swamiji and such realized ones in our contemplation ... it is a wonderful journey of perpetual removal of the debris (the unreal) hoarded within ... That is all I can share on this ... Thank You. Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING " Vasudeva Sarvam " " Everything is Paramatma (God) " is the ultimate of all knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this to be " Vigyaan " and balance all to be " Gyaan " ! What a wonderful statement! We most often jump around considering " Gnyaana " itself as " Vignyaana " !! Brihadaaranyaka (4.2.12) makes an acute observation on this. Yagnyavalkya concludes that, " No gnyaana can ever be present in Moksha " . Everything is THAT VIGNYAANA alone. He calls IT " Vignyaanaghana " - purest essence of all intelligence. We often get carried away by our informative relational rationale to address the same. Vasudeva includes everything ... there is no room outside Him. Pl. refer to Vishwarupa Darshana Yoga. HE includes Duryodhana and the gang as much as the Yudhishthira and the gang. HE includes the most powerful of all as much as the weakest of all. HE includes the richest as much as the poorest. No parameter in any dimension can ever outrange HIM! The discrimination and rationale can rule only the domain of Gnyaana ... not The Vignyaana. Again, it is an opinion projected through the mechanism of Gnyaana ... therefore, pl. treat it just that way. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- MEW POSTING Vasudevah Sarvam - The Essence of ALL The essence of everything is THAT, The Absolute. The Matter IS THAT, but some matter trapped in a perceived body is NOT. The Energy IS THAT, but some energy trapped in a packet of matter is NOT. The Action IS THAT, but an action trapped in a packet of matter and energy is NOT. The Thought IS THAT, but a thought trapped in an action is NOT. The Experience IS THAT, but an experience trapped in a thought is NOT. The Happiness IS THAT, but a happiness trapped in an experience is NOT. The Essence of all the joys IS The Essence of all the experiences IS The Essence of all the thoughts IS The Essence of all the actions IS The Essence of all the bodies IS The Essence of all the energy IS The Essence of all the matter IS .... ... ... The essence of anything IS .... ... ... The essence of everything IS The Essence of ALL. The Absolute. The Truth. Vasudevah Sarvam. Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Naga Narayanaji, Some further clarity needed on second note. If Everything is Vasudeva (Gita 7:19), then is there a " is Not " as such? " Sadsacchaahamarjun. " (Gita 9:19), " I am Being (sat, real) and Non-being (asat, unreal) both. " When there is nothing else besides Vasudeva, then where is the question of IS NOT? is unclear.... From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------- Sadhakas, Namaste! It is a great privilege to be part of this wisdom platform sharing with each other and learning along the way by bringing in experiences in light of scriptural injunctions or pointers from spiritual teachers! As Vyasji put it, then, we can have more meaningful deliberations. With deep respects and divine friendship, I would answer the questions posed by Vyasji as best as I can through the words. It will be better to break them in different posts. 1. How can we experience undivided Consciousness at the outset? We do experience as such, it is just not noticed that way. Consciousness appears to be divided as many objects, split second later, after initial perception. Consciousness cannot be divided, only seems to be so like a movie characters seem to divide ONE light. Attraction for the seen objects distracts us from the non- divisible SEER of all objects! If one notices one doesn't see a particular object initially, one sees as if the view in front of our eyes is totally enveloped in the space surrounding it, as if in the ocean of space, we see waves of forms, upon initial perceptions by senses as raw sensations. This ocean of space itself is in the ocean of Consciousness, so to speak, as only a Conscious Being can perceive such space. However, thought arises " I see a chair there " . Notice, when this is said, the time of initial perception is elapsed, so our recognizing a particular object is in time-space fabric, an integral part of the thought " I see a chair " , chair being from past memory! By the time we recognize, it is already past, as all such thoughts are. We can never know the separate objects without such thoughts and when we know they are past. Object-thoughts are like waves in the Ocean of Consciousness, so all objects including body we call ours are thoughts-Consciousness in our actual experience. The statement " I see a chair " is not our experience in this sense, but is conceptualization of wholeness of experience for the sake of language. Only seeing which is being conscious of, is experiential, I-thought as individual is identification with body-mind of Consciousness and Chair-thought is memory. THAT Which is experiential is always with us, and is Consciousness Itself, where as experiences of objects as thoughts are fleeting! It is, as though, from Totality of view in front of us, we are extracting each object by offering it space and time to exist in our thoughts-mind, in what seems to be division into many objects. Please see this fact: our thoughts manifest objects! When we are not conscious of objects, they remain non-manifest as in deep sleep! As this part of our experience is not noticed and deeply contemplated upon, we see only separate objects and forgetting that separate objects are in mind as thoughts in terms of words(names being time dimension and shape being space dimension). Also it is to be noticed that these objects are Consciousness of them, totally subjective in nature because objects don't participate in our re-cognition of them. No objects tells us what it is, only we call them this or that. If we call cat a dog, or dog a cat, nothing happens to them intrinsically. In otherwords, dog is true only relative to everything else we know that is " not dog-like " . Thus all names are dependent on our agreement to call them as such so we can function and discriminate relatively, it is just a pragmatism only. A dog or any name for that matter is not absolute truth of the object as referred to by that name. In absolute Truth everything has to be undivided, and nameless ONE which we call Existence, Is- ness intrinsic to all objects, and is referred to as SELF, Atman in the context of sentient beings meaning Existence that knows Itself, self-evident Light of Consciousness, Being is " consciousness of being " and consciousness is " being " . Sat is Chit and Chit is Sat and is everyone's experience all the time even if not noticed as in deep sleep! And " we " are THAT Absolutely! This is Vedanta proclamation! PS: Consciousness as I used it above is THAT Absolute Existence which perceives through each body-mind all objects, while ITSELF remaining non-perceivable ever through senses and mind. However, it is ever present, deep rooted PRESENCE in us of Existence by which all else is known. IT is the ultimate Knowingness! It is our True I, we, they, all such pronouns, we use for ourselves, but are taken as individuals. Finally all such words including Consciousness too are concepts, but useful to point to TRUTH, which can only be pointed to our BEING- NESS! This may answer some questions, more later ....Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt ---------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! More on Vyasji's questions: Pardon me, I have to repeat some points, no choice! We cannot experience the world " out there " , means the world we think is external to us by thinking our body ends at the surface of outer skin. The world and body appear in our Consciousness as perceptions, so we only experience our perceptions of world, and body. " Body " is name given to being conscious of sensations, feelings of pains, discomforts, sensual pleasures etc, Such body is " my body " is also due to identification with such feelings and sensations calling it " me " , and is thus not experiential. If all these are seen as appearances in Consciousness, and knowingly identify with Consciousness as I, the seer of all that is " seen " , the discrimination happens. Next the world and body experienced inwardly is found to be consisting of Consciousness only. Then one can say " I am not this body, but this body, along with all other bodies, are in " ME " as Consciousness, All bodies are mine! This is what Vasudevah Sarvam to me. This is because anything one experiences is at once at a zero distance from Consciouseness! Our connection to the apparent world and body is only through this Consciousness, Chaitanya! For instance, a thought about a chair originates, is sustained and dissolves in us without ever touching the outside chair! So chair we experioence is chair-thought only, not the chaor in itself! Everything as a whole is Divine SELF, not an individual body taken exclusively as mine! The body, mind and the World are in ME as Krishna says, but I am not in them if taken as individual objects. Now the real outside world in and of itself cannot be named as separate objects, because then it is from the mind-names-forms only. This nameless reality is Brahman, The absolute, THAT, Ishwara, or whatever name we give, is in reality nameless or all names are only HIS names! IF we name objects, then, from mind only we can do so, and thus ones is relative to others. No named object can stand on its own leg as absolute truth, it needs the legs of others to stand and validate it. Oneness is Reality of experience and the separate objects are concepts and thus to be discriminated for what its worth based on pragmatism! Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Meditation continues in the form of answers to Vyasji's questions with deep appreciation! Hopefully last two posts with this one cover most of the remaining ones from no 3 onward! When I refer to we or I or any pronouns it means Consciousness or Atman that we are, the only Reality. However, we need to refer to us individually for communication purpose and many practical reasons. In this spirit it is Consciousness as Sadhakas are questioning and answering! Anything we know is Consciousness knowing Itself only because ultimate Knower is THAT as us, and what is known are appearances as such made up of thoughts as mind and feelings as bodily sensations, all perceived objects! Consciousness-Atman is the experience of Conscious Existence, indwelling Presence, Isness, and is self evident, no other knower needed to know this Presence or ISNess. It is not a state, or attribute. It is what it IS! As said before, It perceives only Itself as undivided(God sees everything God only, to God there is not everything else). This is said to emphasize the self-effulgence, self-luminous aspect, not attribute. This Perception is the whole and not time-space bound so it is not created, nor destroyed. However, when we separate It as objects by conceiving through thoughts in time-space fabric, specific object thus conceived can end in time, but its Beingness cannot be destroyed as it belongs to Totality from which it emerged and into which it dissolves! When I use " We perceive " , I mean we as Consciousness perceives and endows mind to conceive objects so that Leela can go on! We manifest everything out of ONE thing by conceiving through mind this Totality just as spider weaves web out of itself and then winds it in itself! This is our freedom to be Individual too! Can another object perceive? no, object itself is perceived. Only Consciousness being chaitanya perceives. By Perception, I mean raw sensations-data that sense-complex in the presence of Atman seems to produce as Consciousness of ????. Conception is what I call perceptions resolved as objects with mind- intellect and when such mind assumes itself as knower, it is EGO/Jeeva, considering it as separate reality of beig subject apart from Real KNOWER! Nature of objects perceived/conceived are thus experienced by us only as Consciousness, but we equate such objects with outside objects for which we have no direct knowledge. We only experience our perceptions of the world which are subjective only, never the world itself! In otherwords, world cannot be perceived independent of Consciousness in our experience! The way I use " experience " is that it is discrete, has beginning with objects perceived as thoughts/feelings and end only to replace with another such objects. " Experiential " to me, is that which is continuous, never begins or ends, is subjective in nature but free of attributes of pairs of opposites, shines attributes-gunas of objects, always present as background or substratum of all appearances. It is Consciousness that IS or Brahman! Perceived and Perceiving Consciousness-Atman are same in the sense that waves are perceived while ocean is perceiving Itself. For the purpose of Leela, play, or Maya principle Consciousness forgets and considers appearances as Real until It chooses to end the game in some apparent birth and returns Home apparently as It never left Home! Maya is not a problem, to consider it as Real is the problem! I think these answers questions on the path starting with oneself to reach ONE SELF, from SakshiBhav to SarvatmBhav, from " me " to ME, from personal being to Impersonal BEING and finally feel Vasudev Sarvam! I remain open to further dialogues! Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt - PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Pratapji ! I am sorry inspite of making efforts , I could not understand a lot of your Article. Hence I humbly seek elucidation by you on the first part of your article.. That should make the deliberations more productive, and fruitful, at least more comprehensible. I seek your forgiveness for being of duller intellect. Hope you will bless me with answers : 1 How do you say at the outset that we all are experiencing " undivided consciousness " ? Are we really ? I thought we are experiencing 'individual consciousness' only which means 'divided' and not 'undivided' ! 2 You said : We can never experience " world out there including our own body " in itself, as absolute truth. Out where? Why can't we experience the body as truth? Is not almost entire humanity experiencing the body as Self? For what Scriptures are struggling, otherwise? How it is relative? Relative to what? Where is the Q of absolute or relative Truth in " experiencing " ? " In itself " means in " which self " ? What is " itself " ? 3 You said: We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). We know what as perception ? Who is knowing? Who is that " we " ? What is IS-NESS ? Is it a state / attribute or the ONLY thing ? If it is an attribute then there must be an experiencer also ? If there is no experiencer then of what avail are the statements made by you so frequently such as " we experience, perceiver, perceived, we " etc ? How can consciousness ( chetana) in itself perceive? Perceive what when there is nothing except that ONLY existing? 4 Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them in the moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separate objects. Who is the experiencer( We) ? Is there any or there is " IS NESS ONLY " sans experiencer? How objects are same as IS NESS ? " THUS " means what? What have you stated in previous two/three sentences or more which makes you to conclude that nature of objects is same as that of " us " ? Too fast a conclusion , Sir ? Please state the basis for such conclusion ! Can objects also experience or perceive ? Do objects exist? If yes, then do they have same property as " we " (in your words) have? If no, where is the Q their being ONE with whole or having same property as " we " have ? Is " Consciousness " sentient or inert? Or neither of them? Where is the need for discrimination if both are sentient or both are inert ? Where is the need for Scriptures- if both YOGA and BHOGA are same? 5 You said: Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? What is your view? Are they same? If yes, how? If no, why not? If perceived, perception, and perceiver are same, then how the Q of their being same or not arises? Where does it arise? In whom does it arise? If they are not same, how there is ONE only ? 6 So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. " Experientially " - of whose experience, Pratapji ? How you have said " essentially " ? Is it so ? What makes them ONE experientially? Are we experiencing that? Is their any EXPERIENCER of that state of IS NESS (existence) or not ? Yes or No !! Pratapji ! Consider me as Devil's Advocate only and respond so that all may benefit - SATSANGA !! Beauty lies there !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Contemplate on Sant Jadabharat in Srimat Bagavath talking to king Raguguna on palanquin, saying " Oh king Raguguna, for me the palanquin, you and me are one and the same from same earth " . Can Sadaks pass their views in crisp. If everything and anything is same, where comes the question of Sri Krishna telling Arjuna to wage war with Kauravas. Here Arjuna is one and the other is Kauravas. But essence of everything and anything is correct. HOW? Jai Sri Krishana B.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! I really appreciate Mike and Shashikalaji for their feedback and response. It helps my own understanding really as it works as a booster shot! I relate to what Mike said while reading Ch 11 and appreciate it too in the same spirit. Let me answer the question raised by Shashikalaji! First of all my respects to her as she was the instrumental in making me share this post! In the beginning, we are told by Scriptures or Realized souls like Swamiji, you are not body-mind-sense complex, you are sentient and the world being inert. So disidentify with such objects as they are perishable while you are Imperishable Atman or Consciousness! When deeply contemplated, " you " (?) take your stand as Witnessing Presence within, relative to everything being witnessed(SakshiBhav). This is essential first step, The crown jewel of Discrimination (vivekchudamani) between what one is, Atman, Conscious Being, and everything witnessed, and both are apart. That which is perceived/conceived(body-mind-world) is distinct from all Perceiving Consciousness or Awareness. However, this is still relative truth as you are witness only relative to witnessed! Now comes Vasudev Sarvam or SarvatmaBhav! As you may appreciate by looking openly at our inner experience at the time of perceptions it is NEVER that of separate objects. It is one Wholeness because one sees so many objects and space containing them including one's own body, all at once. This is as if in a pitch dark room one sees only dense-mass of darkness, one cannot even see one's own body! All of a sudden light is turned on and one sees separate objects as if they are materialized from oneness of darkness surrounding them. Similarly we separate and conceive objects when we think " this is chair, this is table, this is another person, this is me etc. These very thoughts of ours have time and space embaded in them(Actually Consciousness creates time- space through us) so they help conceive separate objects we are familiar with outside. Nevertheless, they are experienced as subjective thoughts of those objects which we think are outside independently, not true. Such thoughts are Consciousness shaped up as those objects in all our exoeriences, just as water is shaped as waves in the ocean. In other words, an object has to be one with Consciousness in order for it to be experienced by us, Conscious Being! So all we really experience is Consciousness itself as body-mind and world. There is nothing else in our experience other than Consciousness, Reality, ISNESS! This very Consciousness is Absolute Existence, one Homogeneous mass, so to speak, experientially! IT is what we eseentially are, and It is not personal, is shared by each body- mind! As a matter of fact there is nothing personal in the entire cosmos! We are like a window for Absolute to see through us and enjoy ITSELF as World(leela)! This is Vasudev Sarvam! All there is is this Consciousness, Brahman! So when we say objects don't have existence, it means separate objects don't exist as they appear to be independent of our existence, however, Absolute Existence or BEINGNESS never ceases to be disguised as diversity, the meaning of BG Ch 2:16. No one has ever experienced world in itself, it has been always through being Conscious and as Consciousness. In and of itself everything is ONE UNDIVIDED BEINGNESS which Consciousness! Thus we deal with relative objects based on how they appear in our miinds, likes and dislikes due to conditioned by such objects taken real! However, with this understanding Relative world of objects are discriminated properly as you have suggested, and the biggest help is that we don't get attached to them and fall apart. Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING -Shree Hari- Dear Pratap Bhatt, I read your article several times, and it made me think deeply, that is really good. It reminded me of things I meditated on, discussed and even experienced and so on. My mind went to Bhagavad Gita Ch.11 the revelation of Lord Krishna's Supreme form (Ishwara). Before I continue I would like to share something. I read the whole of the chapter, I was in a very focused state of mind, as I read the Holy Gita, something happened, yes I was reading it in English, but the language of it faded away, I felt as if I were right there in a strange way, I felt I was a privileged observer, the richness of the whole thing was fixed in my mind, hmmm, thats the best way my stumbling words can put it.(Most inadequately). Getting back to Gitaji Ch 11, Arjuna saw Shri Krishna, who he considered to be a great friend, in an overpowering form, I presume only Arjuna witnessed this, or more correctly was given the gift to perceive Ishwara, his senses were confounded he was terrified, and then of course the vision left him. A friend of mine who was a walking encyclopedia, said that 90% of all we perceive is filtered out, otherwise we could not function.(I think I read that somewhere myself). My proviso is the focused mind can transcend these limitations, and the most powerful focus one can have is the 'The Divine Beloved'. B.G. 11 53. Neither by the Vedas, nor by austerity, nor by gift, nor by sacrifice, can I be seen in this form as you have seen me (so easily). 54. But by single-minded devotion can I, of this form, be known and seen in reality and also entered into, Arjuna! With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor) --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, A ray of light has 9 colors. But we see it as white. A minute dot of water try on your computer screen, it will reflect nine colours. The light is one but has 9 colours within. Jai Sri Kriahna B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ Jai Hanuman Mr Bhatt ! You said :In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of " myself " and objects are one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discrimination in dealing with them! Can you elaborate as to how considering reality of " What exists " (Self) and " what does not exist at all " (objects) - by considering them (existent and non existent) to be ONE in the beginning itself, " naturally guide me to discrimination/wisdom in dealing with them " ? Say, If I consider myself and body to be ONE in essence , how will I then discriminate? How the reality of yourself and objects is the same/one ? Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER 1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita, relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant to motivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path 2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study 3. Only one question at a time. 4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group's primary aim of deeper understanding of Gita. FOR RESPONDER 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram " Vasudeva Sarvam " " Everything is Paramatma (God) " is the ultimate of all knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this to be " Vigyaan " and balance all to be " Gyaan " ! To understand / realize the depth of this topic, sadhaks will have to be crisp, precise in stating scriptures. This is not a topic of only words and debate. Therefore please kindly pose specific questions and specific responses - crisply, concisely and precisely based on scriptures only. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! There have been many postings on the subject " Duties of house holder... " , so I chose this, sort of a new topic. It is to build on Shashikalaji's comments on essence of " everything and anything " and use of viveka. The essence of all things, in our experience is just ONE, Undivided Consciousness! We can never experience " world out there including our own body " in itself, as absolute truth. We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them in the moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separate objects. Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. We can call it Vasudev, God, Atman, Paramatman, Reality, Consciousness or whatever name. This is called Absolute Truth of all our experiences, the true I! In jainism, they have term " NischayNaya " , I think. Soon after the perceptions, mind with memory, intellect, etc resolves the Wholeness into objects that we are familiar in practical life. So first perceptions, and then conceptions of objects with names happen in our experience! Names and forms are thus relative truth. It is here that we need to be guided by discrimination to have a proper perspective for each such object, so we can all function in the world of relativity. This is VyavaharNaya in Jainism, I think. When we deeply understand the Essence of all things, being ONE Reality, Paramtman, without a second Reality of thus perceived/conceived objeccts, we can function without attachments and thereby without suffering. In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of " myself " and objects are one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discrimination in dealing with them! Vedanta even goes on to say " knower of Brahman becomes Brahman " , Brahman being the Reality, the Essence of all! Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt --------------------------- NEW POSTING Q: When there is nothing else besides Vasudeva, then where is the question of IS NOT? is unclear.... I agree ... there is no room for " IS NOT " ever. THAT IS CORRECT. The Asat by its very nature is " unreal " and hence " non-existent " on its own. How can a non-existent be anything at all?! That is nothing but nothing!! The " IS NOT " is just a figment of our imagination when we try to contain everything that we perceive within the boundaries of our cognition. The very presence of " IS NOT " just reminds us that we are NOT in The Vignyaana but trapped within our cognitive dependence. Till cognitive dependence rules, whatever perceived DOES NOT LOOK LIKE " SAT " , THE REAL to a true seeker - because, the cognition keeps changing the perceived perpetually. It is in this context, all the wise saints say " NETI " ... " IS NOT " is a necessity for seeking Truth till Asat leaves no traces in our presence. That is the only fool-proof way of realizing our ignorance in believing the limited cognitive perception itself as " the reality " . Once the Asat is mitigated encore, ONLY SAT stays, ONLY VIGNYAANA remains, ONLY TRUTH prevails. Applying the essence of appreciation backwards in our daily life, one would then say that " the so-called Asat " is also THAT alone. That means, " The Asat " is non-existent whether we acknowledge or not. Such an understanding can come only after attaining the Tattva. To start with ... under dominion of the discrimination anything perceived cannot be THE COMPLETE as the preception leaves out infinitude beyond itself. But once The Absolute is attained, THAT alone is prevalent in everything. The very notion of the Asat is mitigated encore and hence one need not verify anything as Sat anymore. My most favorite example for this is from Swamiji ( " Bhagavattattva " in Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga): For a mundane person, the Asat is as crisp and clear as a solid line drawn on a solid rock (NETI is extremely necessary here). For a truthful seeker of truth, in the beginning, it becomes like a line drawn on sand (Still NETI remains important for progress). For a truth seeker in whom the wisdom has bloomed, its is like a line drawn on water (NETI fades away as the SAT prevails). For a Tattvagnya who is permanently established in The Vignyaana that Swamiji refers to, the Asat, the unreal is truly as unreal and illusive as a line drawn in space ... IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST! Then where is the question of IS NOT when we contemplate on " Vaasudevah Sarvam " ? You are right ... then ... " IS NOT " is absolutely irrelevant; IS alone is relevant as well as prevalent. As you correctly pointed out in your note, most of us (at least I am clear about myself) are NOT EVEN FIT to talk about THAT as I am nowhere near THAT ... ONLY REALIZED ONES such as Swamiji can talk on such matter. However, if I have to contemplate on such an idea, I AM BOUND TO BE TRUTHFUL TO THE IDEA RECEIVED IN AS MUCH CLARITY AND TRANSPARENCY AS POSSIBLE - THAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY. As Swamiji says while teaching us how to apply discrimination ( " Vibhaga Yoga " , in Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga), we should adapt the truthful appreciation that we perceive in the realized ones truthfully ... at least while contemplating on THAT if not all the time! That is my limited understanding on this. If you want more, I am afraid, the only way is to invoke The Swamiji and such realized ones in our contemplation ... it is a wonderful journey of perpetual removal of the debris (the unreal) hoarded within ... That is all I can share on this ... Thank You. Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Nagaji, you say - wise saints say " NETI " ... " IS NOT " is a necessity for seeking Truth. Does that mean " Sadsacchaahamarjun. " (Gita 9:19), " I am Being (sat, real) and Non-being (asat, unreal) both. " There is nothing else besides Vasudeva, is this sentiment that Bhagwaan has expressed mainly for a bhakta (loving devotee)? Sarvottamji, Swamiji has spoken to you about Vasudeva Sarvam, can you provide your insights on what is meant by " Sadsacchaahamarjun. " (Gita 9:19). All sadhaks welcome to share on Gita 9:19. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram --------------------------- Thank you, Naga Narayana jee............ ISNESS narinder bhandari ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING " Vasudeva Sarvam " " Everything is Paramatma (God) " is the ultimate of all knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this to be " Vigyaan " and balance all to be " Gyaan " ! What a wonderful statement! We most often jump around considering " Gnyaana " itself as " Vignyaana " !! Brihadaaranyaka (4.2.12) makes an acute observation on this. Yagnyavalkya concludes that, " No gnyaana can ever be present in Moksha " . Everything is THAT VIGNYAANA alone. He calls IT " Vignyaanaghana " - purest essence of all intelligence. We often get carried away by our informative relational rationale to address the same. Vasudeva includes everything ... there is no room outside Him. Pl. refer to Vishwarupa Darshana Yoga. HE includes Duryodhana and the gang as much as the Yudhishthira and the gang. HE includes the most powerful of all as much as the weakest of all. HE includes the richest as much as the poorest. No parameter in any dimension can ever outrange HIM! The discrimination and rationale can rule only the domain of Gnyaana ... not The Vignyaana. Again, it is an opinion projected through the mechanism of Gnyaana ... therefore, pl. treat it just that way. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- MEW POSTING Vasudevah Sarvam - The Essence of ALL The essence of everything is THAT, The Absolute. The Matter IS THAT, but some matter trapped in a perceived body is NOT. The Energy IS THAT, but some energy trapped in a packet of matter is NOT. The Action IS THAT, but an action trapped in a packet of matter and energy is NOT. The Thought IS THAT, but a thought trapped in an action is NOT. The Experience IS THAT, but an experience trapped in a thought is NOT. The Happiness IS THAT, but a happiness trapped in an experience is NOT. The Essence of all the joys IS The Essence of all the experiences IS The Essence of all the thoughts IS The Essence of all the actions IS The Essence of all the bodies IS The Essence of all the energy IS The Essence of all the matter IS .... ... ... The essence of anything IS .... ... ... The essence of everything IS The Essence of ALL. The Absolute. The Truth. Vasudevah Sarvam. Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Naga Narayanaji, Some further clarity needed on second note. If Everything is Vasudeva (Gita 7:19), then is there a " is Not " as such? " Sadsacchaahamarjun. " (Gita 9:19), " I am Being (sat, real) and Non-being (asat, unreal) both. " When there is nothing else besides Vasudeva, then where is the question of IS NOT? is unclear.... From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------- Sadhakas, Namaste! It is a great privilege to be part of this wisdom platform sharing with each other and learning along the way by bringing in experiences in light of scriptural injunctions or pointers from spiritual teachers! As Vyasji put it, then, we can have more meaningful deliberations. With deep respects and divine friendship, I would answer the questions posed by Vyasji as best as I can through the words. It will be better to break them in different posts. 1. How can we experience undivided Consciousness at the outset? We do experience as such, it is just not noticed that way. Consciousness appears to be divided as many objects, split second later, after initial perception. Consciousness cannot be divided, only seems to be so like a movie characters seem to divide ONE light. Attraction for the seen objects distracts us from the non- divisible SEER of all objects! If one notices one doesn't see a particular object initially, one sees as if the view in front of our eyes is totally enveloped in the space surrounding it, as if in the ocean of space, we see waves of forms, upon initial perceptions by senses as raw sensations. This ocean of space itself is in the ocean of Consciousness, so to speak, as only a Conscious Being can perceive such space. However, thought arises " I see a chair there " . Notice, when this is said, the time of initial perception is elapsed, so our recognizing a particular object is in time-space fabric, an integral part of the thought " I see a chair " , chair being from past memory! By the time we recognize, it is already past, as all such thoughts are. We can never know the separate objects without such thoughts and when we know they are past. Object-thoughts are like waves in the Ocean of Consciousness, so all objects including body we call ours are thoughts-Consciousness in our actual experience. The statement " I see a chair " is not our experience in this sense, but is conceptualization of wholeness of experience for the sake of language. Only seeing which is being conscious of, is experiential, I-thought as individual is identification with body-mind of Consciousness and Chair-thought is memory. THAT Which is experiential is always with us, and is Consciousness Itself, where as experiences of objects as thoughts are fleeting! It is, as though, from Totality of view in front of us, we are extracting each object by offering it space and time to exist in our thoughts-mind, in what seems to be division into many objects. Please see this fact: our thoughts manifest objects! When we are not conscious of objects, they remain non-manifest as in deep sleep! As this part of our experience is not noticed and deeply contemplated upon, we see only separate objects and forgetting that separate objects are in mind as thoughts in terms of words(names being time dimension and shape being space dimension). Also it is to be noticed that these objects are Consciousness of them, totally subjective in nature because objects don't participate in our re-cognition of them. No objects tells us what it is, only we call them this or that. If we call cat a dog, or dog a cat, nothing happens to them intrinsically. In otherwords, dog is true only relative to everything else we know that is " not dog-like " . Thus all names are dependent on our agreement to call them as such so we can function and discriminate relatively, it is just a pragmatism only. A dog or any name for that matter is not absolute truth of the object as referred to by that name. In absolute Truth everything has to be undivided, and nameless ONE which we call Existence, Is- ness intrinsic to all objects, and is referred to as SELF, Atman in the context of sentient beings meaning Existence that knows Itself, self-evident Light of Consciousness, Being is " consciousness of being " and consciousness is " being " . Sat is Chit and Chit is Sat and is everyone's experience all the time even if not noticed as in deep sleep! And " we " are THAT Absolutely! This is Vedanta proclamation! PS: Consciousness as I used it above is THAT Absolute Existence which perceives through each body-mind all objects, while ITSELF remaining non-perceivable ever through senses and mind. However, it is ever present, deep rooted PRESENCE in us of Existence by which all else is known. IT is the ultimate Knowingness! It is our True I, we, they, all such pronouns, we use for ourselves, but are taken as individuals. Finally all such words including Consciousness too are concepts, but useful to point to TRUTH, which can only be pointed to our BEING- NESS! This may answer some questions, more later ....Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt ---------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! More on Vyasji's questions: Pardon me, I have to repeat some points, no choice! We cannot experience the world " out there " , means the world we think is external to us by thinking our body ends at the surface of outer skin. The world and body appear in our Consciousness as perceptions, so we only experience our perceptions of world, and body. " Body " is name given to being conscious of sensations, feelings of pains, discomforts, sensual pleasures etc, Such body is " my body " is also due to identification with such feelings and sensations calling it " me " , and is thus not experiential. If all these are seen as appearances in Consciousness, and knowingly identify with Consciousness as I, the seer of all that is " seen " , the discrimination happens. Next the world and body experienced inwardly is found to be consisting of Consciousness only. Then one can say " I am not this body, but this body, along with all other bodies, are in " ME " as Consciousness, All bodies are mine! This is what Vasudevah Sarvam to me. This is because anything one experiences is at once at a zero distance from Consciouseness! Our connection to the apparent world and body is only through this Consciousness, Chaitanya! For instance, a thought about a chair originates, is sustained and dissolves in us without ever touching the outside chair! So chair we experioence is chair-thought only, not the chaor in itself! Everything as a whole is Divine SELF, not an individual body taken exclusively as mine! The body, mind and the World are in ME as Krishna says, but I am not in them if taken as individual objects. Now the real outside world in and of itself cannot be named as separate objects, because then it is from the mind-names-forms only. This nameless reality is Brahman, The absolute, THAT, Ishwara, or whatever name we give, is in reality nameless or all names are only HIS names! IF we name objects, then, from mind only we can do so, and thus ones is relative to others. No named object can stand on its own leg as absolute truth, it needs the legs of others to stand and validate it. Oneness is Reality of experience and the separate objects are concepts and thus to be discriminated for what its worth based on pragmatism! Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Meditation continues in the form of answers to Vyasji's questions with deep appreciation! Hopefully last two posts with this one cover most of the remaining ones from no 3 onward! When I refer to we or I or any pronouns it means Consciousness or Atman that we are, the only Reality. However, we need to refer to us individually for communication purpose and many practical reasons. In this spirit it is Consciousness as Sadhakas are questioning and answering! Anything we know is Consciousness knowing Itself only because ultimate Knower is THAT as us, and what is known are appearances as such made up of thoughts as mind and feelings as bodily sensations, all perceived objects! Consciousness-Atman is the experience of Conscious Existence, indwelling Presence, Isness, and is self evident, no other knower needed to know this Presence or ISNess. It is not a state, or attribute. It is what it IS! As said before, It perceives only Itself as undivided(God sees everything God only, to God there is not everything else). This is said to emphasize the self-effulgence, self-luminous aspect, not attribute. This Perception is the whole and not time-space bound so it is not created, nor destroyed. However, when we separate It as objects by conceiving through thoughts in time-space fabric, specific object thus conceived can end in time, but its Beingness cannot be destroyed as it belongs to Totality from which it emerged and into which it dissolves! When I use " We perceive " , I mean we as Consciousness perceives and endows mind to conceive objects so that Leela can go on! We manifest everything out of ONE thing by conceiving through mind this Totality just as spider weaves web out of itself and then winds it in itself! This is our freedom to be Individual too! Can another object perceive? no, object itself is perceived. Only Consciousness being chaitanya perceives. By Perception, I mean raw sensations-data that sense-complex in the presence of Atman seems to produce as Consciousness of ????. Conception is what I call perceptions resolved as objects with mind- intellect and when such mind assumes itself as knower, it is EGO/Jeeva, considering it as separate reality of beig subject apart from Real KNOWER! Nature of objects perceived/conceived are thus experienced by us only as Consciousness, but we equate such objects with outside objects for which we have no direct knowledge. We only experience our perceptions of the world which are subjective only, never the world itself! In otherwords, world cannot be perceived independent of Consciousness in our experience! The way I use " experience " is that it is discrete, has beginning with objects perceived as thoughts/feelings and end only to replace with another such objects. " Experiential " to me, is that which is continuous, never begins or ends, is subjective in nature but free of attributes of pairs of opposites, shines attributes-gunas of objects, always present as background or substratum of all appearances. It is Consciousness that IS or Brahman! Perceived and Perceiving Consciousness-Atman are same in the sense that waves are perceived while ocean is perceiving Itself. For the purpose of Leela, play, or Maya principle Consciousness forgets and considers appearances as Real until It chooses to end the game in some apparent birth and returns Home apparently as It never left Home! Maya is not a problem, to consider it as Real is the problem! I think these answers questions on the path starting with oneself to reach ONE SELF, from SakshiBhav to SarvatmBhav, from " me " to ME, from personal being to Impersonal BEING and finally feel Vasudev Sarvam! I remain open to further dialogues! Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt - PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Pratapji ! I am sorry inspite of making efforts , I could not understand a lot of your Article. Hence I humbly seek elucidation by you on the first part of your article.. That should make the deliberations more productive, and fruitful, at least more comprehensible. I seek your forgiveness for being of duller intellect. Hope you will bless me with answers : 1 How do you say at the outset that we all are experiencing " undivided consciousness " ? Are we really ? I thought we are experiencing 'individual consciousness' only which means 'divided' and not 'undivided' ! 2 You said : We can never experience " world out there including our own body " in itself, as absolute truth. Out where? Why can't we experience the body as truth? Is not almost entire humanity experiencing the body as Self? For what Scriptures are struggling, otherwise? How it is relative? Relative to what? Where is the Q of absolute or relative Truth in " experiencing " ? " In itself " means in " which self " ? What is " itself " ? 3 You said: We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). We know what as perception ? Who is knowing? Who is that " we " ? What is IS-NESS ? Is it a state / attribute or the ONLY thing ? If it is an attribute then there must be an experiencer also ? If there is no experiencer then of what avail are the statements made by you so frequently such as " we experience, perceiver, perceived, we " etc ? How can consciousness ( chetana) in itself perceive? Perceive what when there is nothing except that ONLY existing? 4 Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them in the moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separate objects. Who is the experiencer( We) ? Is there any or there is " IS NESS ONLY " sans experiencer? How objects are same as IS NESS ? " THUS " means what? What have you stated in previous two/three sentences or more which makes you to conclude that nature of objects is same as that of " us " ? Too fast a conclusion , Sir ? Please state the basis for such conclusion ! Can objects also experience or perceive ? Do objects exist? If yes, then do they have same property as " we " (in your words) have? If no, where is the Q their being ONE with whole or having same property as " we " have ? Is " Consciousness " sentient or inert? Or neither of them? Where is the need for discrimination if both are sentient or both are inert ? Where is the need for Scriptures- if both YOGA and BHOGA are same? 5 You said: Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? What is your view? Are they same? If yes, how? If no, why not? If perceived, perception, and perceiver are same, then how the Q of their being same or not arises? Where does it arise? In whom does it arise? If they are not same, how there is ONE only ? 6 So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. " Experientially " - of whose experience, Pratapji ? How you have said " essentially " ? Is it so ? What makes them ONE experientially? Are we experiencing that? Is their any EXPERIENCER of that state of IS NESS (existence) or not ? Yes or No !! Pratapji ! Consider me as Devil's Advocate only and respond so that all may benefit - SATSANGA !! Beauty lies there !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Contemplate on Sant Jadabharat in Srimat Bagavath talking to king Raguguna on palanquin, saying " Oh king Raguguna, for me the palanquin, you and me are one and the same from same earth " . Can Sadaks pass their views in crisp. If everything and anything is same, where comes the question of Sri Krishna telling Arjuna to wage war with Kauravas. Here Arjuna is one and the other is Kauravas. But essence of everything and anything is correct. HOW? Jai Sri Krishana B.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! I really appreciate Mike and Shashikalaji for their feedback and response. It helps my own understanding really as it works as a booster shot! I relate to what Mike said while reading Ch 11 and appreciate it too in the same spirit. Let me answer the question raised by Shashikalaji! First of all my respects to her as she was the instrumental in making me share this post! In the beginning, we are told by Scriptures or Realized souls like Swamiji, you are not body-mind-sense complex, you are sentient and the world being inert. So disidentify with such objects as they are perishable while you are Imperishable Atman or Consciousness! When deeply contemplated, " you " (?) take your stand as Witnessing Presence within, relative to everything being witnessed(SakshiBhav). This is essential first step, The crown jewel of Discrimination (vivekchudamani) between what one is, Atman, Conscious Being, and everything witnessed, and both are apart. That which is perceived/conceived(body-mind-world) is distinct from all Perceiving Consciousness or Awareness. However, this is still relative truth as you are witness only relative to witnessed! Now comes Vasudev Sarvam or SarvatmaBhav! As you may appreciate by looking openly at our inner experience at the time of perceptions it is NEVER that of separate objects. It is one Wholeness because one sees so many objects and space containing them including one's own body, all at once. This is as if in a pitch dark room one sees only dense-mass of darkness, one cannot even see one's own body! All of a sudden light is turned on and one sees separate objects as if they are materialized from oneness of darkness surrounding them. Similarly we separate and conceive objects when we think " this is chair, this is table, this is another person, this is me etc. These very thoughts of ours have time and space embaded in them(Actually Consciousness creates time- space through us) so they help conceive separate objects we are familiar with outside. Nevertheless, they are experienced as subjective thoughts of those objects which we think are outside independently, not true. Such thoughts are Consciousness shaped up as those objects in all our exoeriences, just as water is shaped as waves in the ocean. In other words, an object has to be one with Consciousness in order for it to be experienced by us, Conscious Being! So all we really experience is Consciousness itself as body-mind and world. There is nothing else in our experience other than Consciousness, Reality, ISNESS! This very Consciousness is Absolute Existence, one Homogeneous mass, so to speak, experientially! IT is what we eseentially are, and It is not personal, is shared by each body- mind! As a matter of fact there is nothing personal in the entire cosmos! We are like a window for Absolute to see through us and enjoy ITSELF as World(leela)! This is Vasudev Sarvam! All there is is this Consciousness, Brahman! So when we say objects don't have existence, it means separate objects don't exist as they appear to be independent of our existence, however, Absolute Existence or BEINGNESS never ceases to be disguised as diversity, the meaning of BG Ch 2:16. No one has ever experienced world in itself, it has been always through being Conscious and as Consciousness. In and of itself everything is ONE UNDIVIDED BEINGNESS which Consciousness! Thus we deal with relative objects based on how they appear in our miinds, likes and dislikes due to conditioned by such objects taken real! However, with this understanding Relative world of objects are discriminated properly as you have suggested, and the biggest help is that we don't get attached to them and fall apart. Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING -Shree Hari- Dear Pratap Bhatt, I read your article several times, and it made me think deeply, that is really good. It reminded me of things I meditated on, discussed and even experienced and so on. My mind went to Bhagavad Gita Ch.11 the revelation of Lord Krishna's Supreme form (Ishwara). Before I continue I would like to share something. I read the whole of the chapter, I was in a very focused state of mind, as I read the Holy Gita, something happened, yes I was reading it in English, but the language of it faded away, I felt as if I were right there in a strange way, I felt I was a privileged observer, the richness of the whole thing was fixed in my mind, hmmm, thats the best way my stumbling words can put it.(Most inadequately). Getting back to Gitaji Ch 11, Arjuna saw Shri Krishna, who he considered to be a great friend, in an overpowering form, I presume only Arjuna witnessed this, or more correctly was given the gift to perceive Ishwara, his senses were confounded he was terrified, and then of course the vision left him. A friend of mine who was a walking encyclopedia, said that 90% of all we perceive is filtered out, otherwise we could not function.(I think I read that somewhere myself). My proviso is the focused mind can transcend these limitations, and the most powerful focus one can have is the 'The Divine Beloved'. B.G. 11 53. Neither by the Vedas, nor by austerity, nor by gift, nor by sacrifice, can I be seen in this form as you have seen me (so easily). 54. But by single-minded devotion can I, of this form, be known and seen in reality and also entered into, Arjuna! With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor) --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, A ray of light has 9 colors. But we see it as white. A minute dot of water try on your computer screen, it will reflect nine colours. The light is one but has 9 colours within. Jai Sri Kriahna B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ Jai Hanuman Mr Bhatt ! You said :In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of " myself " and objects are one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discrimination in dealing with them! Can you elaborate as to how considering reality of " What exists " (Self) and " what does not exist at all " (objects) - by considering them (existent and non existent) to be ONE in the beginning itself, " naturally guide me to discrimination/wisdom in dealing with them " ? Say, If I consider myself and body to be ONE in essence , how will I then discriminate? How the reality of yourself and objects is the same/one ? Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER 1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita, relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant to motivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path 2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study 3. Only one question at a time. 4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group's primary aim of deeper understanding of Gita. FOR RESPONDER 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram " Vasudeva Sarvam " " Everything is Paramatma (God) " is the ultimate of all knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this to be " Vigyaan " and balance all to be " Gyaan " ! To understand / realize the depth of this topic, sadhaks will have to be crisp, precise in stating scriptures. This is not a topic of only words and debate. Therefore please kindly pose specific questions and specific responses - crisply, concisely and precisely based on scriptures only. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! There have been many postings on the subject " Duties of house holder... " , so I chose this, sort of a new topic. It is to build on Shashikalaji's comments on essence of " everything and anything " and use of viveka. The essence of all things, in our experience is just ONE, Undivided Consciousness! We can never experience " world out there including our own body " in itself, as absolute truth. We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them in the moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separate objects. Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. We can call it Vasudev, God, Atman, Paramatman, Reality, Consciousness or whatever name. This is called Absolute Truth of all our experiences, the true I! In jainism, they have term " NischayNaya " , I think. Soon after the perceptions, mind with memory, intellect, etc resolves the Wholeness into objects that we are familiar in practical life. So first perceptions, and then conceptions of objects with names happen in our experience! Names and forms are thus relative truth. It is here that we need to be guided by discrimination to have a proper perspective for each such object, so we can all function in the world of relativity. This is VyavaharNaya in Jainism, I think. When we deeply understand the Essence of all things, being ONE Reality, Paramtman, without a second Reality of thus perceived/conceived objeccts, we can function without attachments and thereby without suffering. In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of " myself " and objects are one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discrimination in dealing with them! Vedanta even goes on to say " knower of Brahman becomes Brahman " , Brahman being the Reality, the Essence of all! Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt --------------------------- NEW POSTING Hari Om On the subject of Vasudeva Sarvam (7:19) or Nasato Vidyate Bhavah (2:16)- main Q is how objects / world do not exist at all? Do we not directly experience the world ? How to negate that? The fact is that this world is the expansion of Brahman. The triple world is within consciousness. Brahman alone appears as the world. The universe created by Brahma is mental. Brahma has a body consisting only of thought. Hence Brahma is known in the Scriptures as Cosmic Mind. The imagination of objects is of the nature of mere appearance or illusion of Absolute Consciousness. That indeed is described by the word Jeeva ( embodied/individual soul) which is the natural throb of the pure sky of Consciousness. As there is movement of wind , the hotness of fire or the coldness of ice, so there is Jeevahood of the Self. That Self Principle ( or the Absolute Consciousness) , which is not limited by space, time etc takes a body held in space and time, through its own power and ONLY OUT OF SPORT ! ( Ekaki na ramate ). The Self is spontaneously perceived , as if it were another, only by itself. When Self produces the energy called thinking ( or imagination) like wind its power of motion, then, the universal Self becomes the mind consisting of grasping of thoughts, appearing as it were differently, manifesting its form of its own accord. THUS , THE ABSOLUTE CONSCIOUSNESS, IMAGINING ITSELF AS DIFFERENT BY NATURE, GOES AS IT WERE TO THE STATE OF OTHERNESS BY ITSELF , IN THE FORM OF ITS OWN ERROR ( i e , such imagination). As the same man indeed becomes another in a moment on account of anger , so, the one of the nature of Pure Consciousness , has gone to the state of otherness, having the stain of error/imagination. For him who considers this collection of rays of solar light as different from the Sun, this is indeed different, as it were, from the Sun !!! (Other examples- Gold/Bracelet; Water/Wave; Fire/flame; ) To be contd. In the meantime let there be deliberations/focussed and brief on the subject / material shared so far. Even Moderators have requested ALL Sadhaks to whole heartedly participate. I will answer each and every question on the subject. Start asking Qs (on shared material) as I continue taking the deliberations forward. This is ULTIMATE subject ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------- There is nothing else besides Vasudeva, is this sentiment that Bhagwaan has expressed mainly for a bhakta (loving devotee)? If you want me to answer this question … " The Truth is everything " is the fact - no matter whether it is told or not, whether it is told to somebody or everybody or nobody, whether anybody receives it or not, whether anybody accepts it or disputes it … the very statement covers everything with absolutely no exceptions. But, one who receives the message earnestly is invariably a Bhakta in essence. Isn't so? THAT does not address anybody in particular ... yet, anybody, no matter what, is elligible and capable of approaching THAT! NETI means " anything is not THAT " ... it does not mean " THAT is not anything " . THAT is anything and everything. But, nothing can be THAT in isolation as The Truth cannot be multiple. This results in Mano Naasha (annihilation of subjective identity) - that is what I tried to mean in the beginning of my original utterances. But, an individual cannot fathom what THAT means thanks to its self-rooted, self-promoted and self-protected confinement camps called identities. The fellow helplessly insists the images collected as its identities as " the only reality " . It does not mean that The Truth could be excluded even in such ignorance - THAT includes everything without saying. But, the ignorant cannot fathom the wonderful experience of the Universal Presence as it cannot break open its cocoons of ignorance in terms of its beleifs and doubts, desires and fears, and likes and dislikes. The only way to entice the ignorant to break open its cocoons is to suggest the opposite (NETI) of its beliefs rather strongly. When the deeprooted beliefs are negated strongly, there is a positive chance that one would look into one's self-proclaimed identities to come out with a justification. As every image that the ignorant brings out in support, " The NETI " stands against smashing the images one after the other burning down the ignorance hoarded in terms of the images within. When all the images are annihilated, one can experience The Absolute. Unless the individual can fathom beyond the cocoons of beliefs, " Vasudevah Sarvam " , The Absolute remains a notion in one's mind. NETI helps breaking all the beliefs helping us attain The Truth. When " NETI " hints upon The Truth, then, " NETI " means " NOT JUST THIS " and not " NOT THIS " … as we apply such an appreciation in our lives, Vasudeva blooms to ITS infinitude breaking all the barriers we have gathered. This results in Aatma Bodha (Universal Awareness). That is what I tried to mean later in my original utterances. Anything IS THAT, but anything trapped in a perceived domain is NOT - meaning, " do not limit your appreciation to anything as such … let it flow freely encompassing the whole universe and beyond … do not confine yourself to any figment even if it is the whole universe itself … then, there is an opportunity to witness The Vasudeva, The Lord of All. In fact, " Vasudevah Sarvam " itself is a discriminative notion that is required till the contradictions of real and unreal loom around in one's existence. Once, all the unreal is mitigated, real does not make sense either. Just like " You are eating " is a meaningless statement to the one who is already eating, " Vasudevah Sarvam " is a meaningless statement to a Prahlada who is already THAT. As Swamiji says, such a natural presence wherein both real and unreal loose their dominions is " Vasudevah Sarvam " (REFER below). Om Tat Sat! Respects. Naga Narayana. Excerpts from " Sahaja Nivritti " from Sadhan Sudha Sindhu: Asat ko satta denese hee nivritt (sahaja-nivritt) aur praapt (swatah-praapt) - ye do vibhag kahe jaate hai. Asatko satta na de to na nivritt hai, na praapt hai, pratyut sattamaatr jyon-ki-tyon hai. Dusare shabdon me, jabtak asatki satta hai, tabtak vivek hai. Asatki satta mitneper vivek hee tattvagnyaanme parinat ho jaata hai; kyonki jab asatki satta hai hee nahi, to phir sat hee shesh rahega. Iseeko Geetane " Vasudevah Sarvam " kahaa hai. The distinction between the real (the ever-attained) and the unreal (the ever-departing) remains only because one provides importance to the unreal. Once the unreal becomes insignificant in one's perception, there is neither attainable nor unattainable, but mere presence as such. In other words, the discrimination is present (and required) only till there are traces of the unreal. Once the unreal is annihilated at its core, the same discrimination matures into realization because, when there is no unreal at all, everything is nothing but the mere presence of all, The Truth, The Sat. This is referred to as " Vasudevah Sarvam " in the Bhagavadgita. PS: Original Hindi version is given, in case, there is any misgivings in its english version. Respects. Naga. -------------------------------- Dear Sadaks, Everything is that a worldly man desires. No matter how much wealth, fame, one may have but a little more. A millionaire, then a multimillionaire, 1st richest man on earth Etc. Anything is for realized one. Anything on earth is Vasudev Swaroop- Poornathuvam, nothing beyond and permanent. So the Gyani cannot have 2 different things, he sees Vasudeva Sarvam. Ordinary man sees another person Mr/Mrs X by looks, by his dress, by his wealth Etc. But Gyani sees the same Mr.X inside that illumines is Paramathuma. All the external features of Mr.X is unseen. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ------------------------------- THE NATURE AND EXPERIENCE OF ISNESS ( The essence ) One day, of Krishna , Govinda, Satguru, I asked, O Krishna Govinda, my Love, Satguru, my Being, pray let me know, What is Realisation? Realisation, answered Krishna , is the IS-NESS of all that IS And Beloved, implored within me, What is my IS-NESS ? I cannot say, I cannot tell,Govinda smiled, But IS-NESS happened, it just happened ! The Gift of my Satguru And Time was no more, Nor Space, Nor speech, nor silence, Only ISNESS. In the Eternity of the Moment The giving of the Gift The receiving of the Gift No Giver, No Reciever, Only ISNESS. In the Eternity of the Moment Silence that IS. In the Eternity of the Moment The Soundless Sound. In the Eternity of the Moment The One Word. In the Eternity of the Moment The expansion of the Word, The Vedas. In the Eternity of the Moment All movement, the World, the Universe. In the Eternity of the Moment Total stillness, Void, Full-ness absolute. In the Eternity of the Moment Only IS-NESS. Only IS-NESS, just Is-ness! Only the Giving, only the Receiving Sans Giver, Sans Receiver Only IS-NESS. Only IS-NESS Only gratitude Only Loving, choiceless loving Only One-ness, Not- two-ness forever Of the seeker and his Guru, ONlY IS-NESS. AUM narinder bhandari --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Q: When there is nothing else besides Vasudeva, then where is the question of IS NOT? is unclear.... I agree ... there is no room for " IS NOT " ever. THAT IS CORRECT. The Asat by its very nature is " unreal " and hence " non-existent " on its own. How can a non-existent be anything at all?! That is nothing but nothing!! The " IS NOT " is just a figment of our imagination when we try to contain everything that we perceive within the boundaries of our cognition. The very presence of " IS NOT " just reminds us that we are NOT in The Vignyaana but trapped within our cognitive dependence. Till cognitive dependence rules, whatever perceived DOES NOT LOOK LIKE " SAT " , THE REAL to a true seeker - because, the cognition keeps changing the perceived perpetually. It is in this context, all the wise saints say " NETI " ... " IS NOT " is a necessity for seeking Truth till Asat leaves no traces in our presence. That is the only fool-proof way of realizing our ignorance in believing the limited cognitive perception itself as " the reality " . Once the Asat is mitigated encore, ONLY SAT stays, ONLY VIGNYAANA remains, ONLY TRUTH prevails. Applying the essence of appreciation backwards in our daily life, one would then say that " the so-called Asat " is also THAT alone. That means, " The Asat " is non-existent whether we acknowledge or not. Such an understanding can come only after attaining the Tattva. To start with ... under dominion of the discrimination anything perceived cannot be THE COMPLETE as the preception leaves out infinitude beyond itself. But once The Absolute is attained, THAT alone is prevalent in everything. The very notion of the Asat is mitigated encore and hence one need not verify anything as Sat anymore. My most favorite example for this is from Swamiji ( " Bhagavattattva " in Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga): For a mundane person, the Asat is as crisp and clear as a solid line drawn on a solid rock (NETI is extremely necessary here). For a truthful seeker of truth, in the beginning, it becomes like a line drawn on sand (Still NETI remains important for progress). For a truth seeker in whom the wisdom has bloomed, its is like a line drawn on water (NETI fades away as the SAT prevails). For a Tattvagnya who is permanently established in The Vignyaana that Swamiji refers to, the Asat, the unreal is truly as unreal and illusive as a line drawn in space ... IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST! Then where is the question of IS NOT when we contemplate on " Vaasudevah Sarvam " ? You are right ... then ... " IS NOT " is absolutely irrelevant; IS alone is relevant as well as prevalent. As you correctly pointed out in your note, most of us (at least I am clear about myself) are NOT EVEN FIT to talk about THAT as I am nowhere near THAT ... ONLY REALIZED ONES such as Swamiji can talk on such matter. However, if I have to contemplate on such an idea, I AM BOUND TO BE TRUTHFUL TO THE IDEA RECEIVED IN AS MUCH CLARITY AND TRANSPARENCY AS POSSIBLE - THAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY. As Swamiji says while teaching us how to apply discrimination ( " Vibhaga Yoga " , in Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga), we should adapt the truthful appreciation that we perceive in the realized ones truthfully ... at least while contemplating on THAT if not all the time! That is my limited understanding on this. If you want more, I am afraid, the only way is to invoke The Swamiji and such realized ones in our contemplation ... it is a wonderful journey of perpetual removal of the debris (the unreal) hoarded within ... That is all I can share on this ... Thank You. Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Nagaji, you say - wise saints say " NETI " ... " IS NOT " is a necessity for seeking Truth. Does that mean " Sadsacchaahamarjun. " (Gita 9:19), " I am Being (sat, real) and Non-being (asat, unreal) both. " There is nothing else besides Vasudeva, is this sentiment that Bhagwaan has expressed mainly for a bhakta (loving devotee)? Sarvottamji, Swamiji has spoken to you about Vasudeva Sarvam, can you provide your insights on what is meant by " Sadsacchaahamarjun. " (Gita 9:19). All sadhaks welcome to share on Gita 9:19. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram --------------------------- Thank you, Naga Narayana jee............ ISNESS narinder bhandari ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING " Vasudeva Sarvam " " Everything is Paramatma (God) " is the ultimate of all knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this to be " Vigyaan " and balance all to be " Gyaan " ! What a wonderful statement! We most often jump around considering " Gnyaana " itself as " Vignyaana " !! Brihadaaranyaka (4.2.12) makes an acute observation on this. Yagnyavalkya concludes that, " No gnyaana can ever be present in Moksha " . Everything is THAT VIGNYAANA alone. He calls IT " Vignyaanaghana " - purest essence of all intelligence. We often get carried away by our informative relational rationale to address the same. Vasudeva includes everything ... there is no room outside Him. Pl. refer to Vishwarupa Darshana Yoga. HE includes Duryodhana and the gang as much as the Yudhishthira and the gang. HE includes the most powerful of all as much as the weakest of all. HE includes the richest as much as the poorest. No parameter in any dimension can ever outrange HIM! The discrimination and rationale can rule only the domain of Gnyaana ... not The Vignyaana. Again, it is an opinion projected through the mechanism of Gnyaana ... therefore, pl. treat it just that way. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- MEW POSTING Vasudevah Sarvam - The Essence of ALL The essence of everything is THAT, The Absolute. The Matter IS THAT, but some matter trapped in a perceived body is NOT. The Energy IS THAT, but some energy trapped in a packet of matter is NOT. The Action IS THAT, but an action trapped in a packet of matter and energy is NOT. The Thought IS THAT, but a thought trapped in an action is NOT. The Experience IS THAT, but an experience trapped in a thought is NOT. The Happiness IS THAT, but a happiness trapped in an experience is NOT. The Essence of all the joys IS The Essence of all the experiences IS The Essence of all the thoughts IS The Essence of all the actions IS The Essence of all the bodies IS The Essence of all the energy IS The Essence of all the matter IS .... ... ... The essence of anything IS .... ... ... The essence of everything IS The Essence of ALL. The Absolute. The Truth. Vasudevah Sarvam. Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Naga Narayanaji, Some further clarity needed on second note. If Everything is Vasudeva (Gita 7:19), then is there a " is Not " as such? " Sadsacchaahamarjun. " (Gita 9:19), " I am Being (sat, real) and Non-being (asat, unreal) both. " When there is nothing else besides Vasudeva, then where is the question of IS NOT? is unclear.... From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------- Sadhakas, Namaste! It is a great privilege to be part of this wisdom platform sharing with each other and learning along the way by bringing in experiences in light of scriptural injunctions or pointers from spiritual teachers! As Vyasji put it, then, we can have more meaningful deliberations. With deep respects and divine friendship, I would answer the questions posed by Vyasji as best as I can through the words. It will be better to break them in different posts. 1. How can we experience undivided Consciousness at the outset? We do experience as such, it is just not noticed that way. Consciousness appears to be divided as many objects, split second later, after initial perception. Consciousness cannot be divided, only seems to be so like a movie characters seem to divide ONE light. Attraction for the seen objects distracts us from the non- divisible SEER of all objects! If one notices one doesn't see a particular object initially, one sees as if the view in front of our eyes is totally enveloped in the space surrounding it, as if in the ocean of space, we see waves of forms, upon initial perceptions by senses as raw sensations. This ocean of space itself is in the ocean of Consciousness, so to speak, as only a Conscious Being can perceive such space. However, thought arises " I see a chair there " . Notice, when this is said, the time of initial perception is elapsed, so our recognizing a particular object is in time-space fabric, an integral part of the thought " I see a chair " , chair being from past memory! By the time we recognize, it is already past, as all such thoughts are. We can never know the separate objects without such thoughts and when we know they are past. Object-thoughts are like waves in the Ocean of Consciousness, so all objects including body we call ours are thoughts-Consciousness in our actual experience. The statement " I see a chair " is not our experience in this sense, but is conceptualization of wholeness of experience for the sake of language. Only seeing which is being conscious of, is experiential, I-thought as individual is identification with body-mind of Consciousness and Chair-thought is memory. THAT Which is experiential is always with us, and is Consciousness Itself, where as experiences of objects as thoughts are fleeting! It is, as though, from Totality of view in front of us, we are extracting each object by offering it space and time to exist in our thoughts-mind, in what seems to be division into many objects. Please see this fact: our thoughts manifest objects! When we are not conscious of objects, they remain non-manifest as in deep sleep! As this part of our experience is not noticed and deeply contemplated upon, we see only separate objects and forgetting that separate objects are in mind as thoughts in terms of words(names being time dimension and shape being space dimension). Also it is to be noticed that these objects are Consciousness of them, totally subjective in nature because objects don't participate in our re-cognition of them. No objects tells us what it is, only we call them this or that. If we call cat a dog, or dog a cat, nothing happens to them intrinsically. In otherwords, dog is true only relative to everything else we know that is " not dog-like " . Thus all names are dependent on our agreement to call them as such so we can function and discriminate relatively, it is just a pragmatism only. A dog or any name for that matter is not absolute truth of the object as referred to by that name. In absolute Truth everything has to be undivided, and nameless ONE which we call Existence, Is- ness intrinsic to all objects, and is referred to as SELF, Atman in the context of sentient beings meaning Existence that knows Itself, self-evident Light of Consciousness, Being is " consciousness of being " and consciousness is " being " . Sat is Chit and Chit is Sat and is everyone's experience all the time even if not noticed as in deep sleep! And " we " are THAT Absolutely! This is Vedanta proclamation! PS: Consciousness as I used it above is THAT Absolute Existence which perceives through each body-mind all objects, while ITSELF remaining non-perceivable ever through senses and mind. However, it is ever present, deep rooted PRESENCE in us of Existence by which all else is known. IT is the ultimate Knowingness! It is our True I, we, they, all such pronouns, we use for ourselves, but are taken as individuals. Finally all such words including Consciousness too are concepts, but useful to point to TRUTH, which can only be pointed to our BEING- NESS! This may answer some questions, more later ....Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt ---------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! More on Vyasji's questions: Pardon me, I have to repeat some points, no choice! We cannot experience the world " out there " , means the world we think is external to us by thinking our body ends at the surface of outer skin. The world and body appear in our Consciousness as perceptions, so we only experience our perceptions of world, and body. " Body " is name given to being conscious of sensations, feelings of pains, discomforts, sensual pleasures etc, Such body is " my body " is also due to identification with such feelings and sensations calling it " me " , and is thus not experiential. If all these are seen as appearances in Consciousness, and knowingly identify with Consciousness as I, the seer of all that is " seen " , the discrimination happens. Next the world and body experienced inwardly is found to be consisting of Consciousness only. Then one can say " I am not this body, but this body, along with all other bodies, are in " ME " as Consciousness, All bodies are mine! This is what Vasudevah Sarvam to me. This is because anything one experiences is at once at a zero distance from Consciouseness! Our connection to the apparent world and body is only through this Consciousness, Chaitanya! For instance, a thought about a chair originates, is sustained and dissolves in us without ever touching the outside chair! So chair we experioence is chair-thought only, not the chaor in itself! Everything as a whole is Divine SELF, not an individual body taken exclusively as mine! The body, mind and the World are in ME as Krishna says, but I am not in them if taken as individual objects. Now the real outside world in and of itself cannot be named as separate objects, because then it is from the mind-names-forms only. This nameless reality is Brahman, The absolute, THAT, Ishwara, or whatever name we give, is in reality nameless or all names are only HIS names! IF we name objects, then, from mind only we can do so, and thus ones is relative to others. No named object can stand on its own leg as absolute truth, it needs the legs of others to stand and validate it. Oneness is Reality of experience and the separate objects are concepts and thus to be discriminated for what its worth based on pragmatism! Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Meditation continues in the form of answers to Vyasji's questions with deep appreciation! Hopefully last two posts with this one cover most of the remaining ones from no 3 onward! When I refer to we or I or any pronouns it means Consciousness or Atman that we are, the only Reality. However, we need to refer to us individually for communication purpose and many practical reasons. In this spirit it is Consciousness as Sadhakas are questioning and answering! Anything we know is Consciousness knowing Itself only because ultimate Knower is THAT as us, and what is known are appearances as such made up of thoughts as mind and feelings as bodily sensations, all perceived objects! Consciousness-Atman is the experience of Conscious Existence, indwelling Presence, Isness, and is self evident, no other knower needed to know this Presence or ISNess. It is not a state, or attribute. It is what it IS! As said before, It perceives only Itself as undivided(God sees everything God only, to God there is not everything else). This is said to emphasize the self-effulgence, self-luminous aspect, not attribute. This Perception is the whole and not time-space bound so it is not created, nor destroyed. However, when we separate It as objects by conceiving through thoughts in time-space fabric, specific object thus conceived can end in time, but its Beingness cannot be destroyed as it belongs to Totality from which it emerged and into which it dissolves! When I use " We perceive " , I mean we as Consciousness perceives and endows mind to conceive objects so that Leela can go on! We manifest everything out of ONE thing by conceiving through mind this Totality just as spider weaves web out of itself and then winds it in itself! This is our freedom to be Individual too! Can another object perceive? no, object itself is perceived. Only Consciousness being chaitanya perceives. By Perception, I mean raw sensations-data that sense-complex in the presence of Atman seems to produce as Consciousness of ????. Conception is what I call perceptions resolved as objects with mind- intellect and when such mind assumes itself as knower, it is EGO/Jeeva, considering it as separate reality of beig subject apart from Real KNOWER! Nature of objects perceived/conceived are thus experienced by us only as Consciousness, but we equate such objects with outside objects for which we have no direct knowledge. We only experience our perceptions of the world which are subjective only, never the world itself! In otherwords, world cannot be perceived independent of Consciousness in our experience! The way I use " experience " is that it is discrete, has beginning with objects perceived as thoughts/feelings and end only to replace with another such objects. " Experiential " to me, is that which is continuous, never begins or ends, is subjective in nature but free of attributes of pairs of opposites, shines attributes-gunas of objects, always present as background or substratum of all appearances. It is Consciousness that IS or Brahman! Perceived and Perceiving Consciousness-Atman are same in the sense that waves are perceived while ocean is perceiving Itself. For the purpose of Leela, play, or Maya principle Consciousness forgets and considers appearances as Real until It chooses to end the game in some apparent birth and returns Home apparently as It never left Home! Maya is not a problem, to consider it as Real is the problem! I think these answers questions on the path starting with oneself to reach ONE SELF, from SakshiBhav to SarvatmBhav, from " me " to ME, from personal being to Impersonal BEING and finally feel Vasudev Sarvam! I remain open to further dialogues! Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt - PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Pratapji ! I am sorry inspite of making efforts , I could not understand a lot of your Article. Hence I humbly seek elucidation by you on the first part of your article.. That should make the deliberations more productive, and fruitful, at least more comprehensible. I seek your forgiveness for being of duller intellect. Hope you will bless me with answers : 1 How do you say at the outset that we all are experiencing " undivided consciousness " ? Are we really ? I thought we are experiencing 'individual consciousness' only which means 'divided' and not 'undivided' ! 2 You said : We can never experience " world out there including our own body " in itself, as absolute truth. Out where? Why can't we experience the body as truth? Is not almost entire humanity experiencing the body as Self? For what Scriptures are struggling, otherwise? How it is relative? Relative to what? Where is the Q of absolute or relative Truth in " experiencing " ? " In itself " means in " which self " ? What is " itself " ? 3 You said: We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). We know what as perception ? Who is knowing? Who is that " we " ? What is IS-NESS ? Is it a state / attribute or the ONLY thing ? If it is an attribute then there must be an experiencer also ? If there is no experiencer then of what avail are the statements made by you so frequently such as " we experience, perceiver, perceived, we " etc ? How can consciousness ( chetana) in itself perceive? Perceive what when there is nothing except that ONLY existing? 4 Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them in the moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separate objects. Who is the experiencer( We) ? Is there any or there is " IS NESS ONLY " sans experiencer? How objects are same as IS NESS ? " THUS " means what? What have you stated in previous two/three sentences or more which makes you to conclude that nature of objects is same as that of " us " ? Too fast a conclusion , Sir ? Please state the basis for such conclusion ! Can objects also experience or perceive ? Do objects exist? If yes, then do they have same property as " we " (in your words) have? If no, where is the Q their being ONE with whole or having same property as " we " have ? Is " Consciousness " sentient or inert? Or neither of them? Where is the need for discrimination if both are sentient or both are inert ? Where is the need for Scriptures- if both YOGA and BHOGA are same? 5 You said: Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? What is your view? Are they same? If yes, how? If no, why not? If perceived, perception, and perceiver are same, then how the Q of their being same or not arises? Where does it arise? In whom does it arise? If they are not same, how there is ONE only ? 6 So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. " Experientially " - of whose experience, Pratapji ? How you have said " essentially " ? Is it so ? What makes them ONE experientially? Are we experiencing that? Is their any EXPERIENCER of that state of IS NESS (existence) or not ? Yes or No !! Pratapji ! Consider me as Devil's Advocate only and respond so that all may benefit - SATSANGA !! Beauty lies there !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Contemplate on Sant Jadabharat in Srimat Bagavath talking to king Raguguna on palanquin, saying " Oh king Raguguna, for me the palanquin, you and me are one and the same from same earth " . Can Sadaks pass their views in crisp. If everything and anything is same, where comes the question of Sri Krishna telling Arjuna to wage war with Kauravas. Here Arjuna is one and the other is Kauravas. But essence of everything and anything is correct. HOW? Jai Sri Krishana B.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! I really appreciate Mike and Shashikalaji for their feedback and response. It helps my own understanding really as it works as a booster shot! I relate to what Mike said while reading Ch 11 and appreciate it too in the same spirit. Let me answer the question raised by Shashikalaji! First of all my respects to her as she was the instrumental in making me share this post! In the beginning, we are told by Scriptures or Realized souls like Swamiji, you are not body-mind-sense complex, you are sentient and the world being inert. So disidentify with such objects as they are perishable while you are Imperishable Atman or Consciousness! When deeply contemplated, " you " (?) take your stand as Witnessing Presence within, relative to everything being witnessed(SakshiBhav). This is essential first step, The crown jewel of Discrimination (vivekchudamani) between what one is, Atman, Conscious Being, and everything witnessed, and both are apart. That which is perceived/conceived(body-mind-world) is distinct from all Perceiving Consciousness or Awareness. However, this is still relative truth as you are witness only relative to witnessed! Now comes Vasudev Sarvam or SarvatmaBhav! As you may appreciate by looking openly at our inner experience at the time of perceptions it is NEVER that of separate objects. It is one Wholeness because one sees so many objects and space containing them including one's own body, all at once. This is as if in a pitch dark room one sees only dense-mass of darkness, one cannot even see one's own body! All of a sudden light is turned on and one sees separate objects as if they are materialized from oneness of darkness surrounding them. Similarly we separate and conceive objects when we think " this is chair, this is table, this is another person, this is me etc. These very thoughts of ours have time and space embaded in them(Actually Consciousness creates time- space through us) so they help conceive separate objects we are familiar with outside. Nevertheless, they are experienced as subjective thoughts of those objects which we think are outside independently, not true. Such thoughts are Consciousness shaped up as those objects in all our exoeriences, just as water is shaped as waves in the ocean. In other words, an object has to be one with Consciousness in order for it to be experienced by us, Conscious Being! So all we really experience is Consciousness itself as body-mind and world. There is nothing else in our experience other than Consciousness, Reality, ISNESS! This very Consciousness is Absolute Existence, one Homogeneous mass, so to speak, experientially! IT is what we eseentially are, and It is not personal, is shared by each body- mind! As a matter of fact there is nothing personal in the entire cosmos! We are like a window for Absolute to see through us and enjoy ITSELF as World(leela)! This is Vasudev Sarvam! All there is is this Consciousness, Brahman! So when we say objects don't have existence, it means separate objects don't exist as they appear to be independent of our existence, however, Absolute Existence or BEINGNESS never ceases to be disguised as diversity, the meaning of BG Ch 2:16. No one has ever experienced world in itself, it has been always through being Conscious and as Consciousness. In and of itself everything is ONE UNDIVIDED BEINGNESS which Consciousness! Thus we deal with relative objects based on how they appear in our miinds, likes and dislikes due to conditioned by such objects taken real! However, with this understanding Relative world of objects are discriminated properly as you have suggested, and the biggest help is that we don't get attached to them and fall apart. Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING -Shree Hari- Dear Pratap Bhatt, I read your article several times, and it made me think deeply, that is really good. It reminded me of things I meditated on, discussed and even experienced and so on. My mind went to Bhagavad Gita Ch.11 the revelation of Lord Krishna's Supreme form (Ishwara). Before I continue I would like to share something. I read the whole of the chapter, I was in a very focused state of mind, as I read the Holy Gita, something happened, yes I was reading it in English, but the language of it faded away, I felt as if I were right there in a strange way, I felt I was a privileged observer, the richness of the whole thing was fixed in my mind, hmmm, thats the best way my stumbling words can put it.(Most inadequately). Getting back to Gitaji Ch 11, Arjuna saw Shri Krishna, who he considered to be a great friend, in an overpowering form, I presume only Arjuna witnessed this, or more correctly was given the gift to perceive Ishwara, his senses were confounded he was terrified, and then of course the vision left him. A friend of mine who was a walking encyclopedia, said that 90% of all we perceive is filtered out, otherwise we could not function.(I think I read that somewhere myself). My proviso is the focused mind can transcend these limitations, and the most powerful focus one can have is the 'The Divine Beloved'. B.G. 11 53. Neither by the Vedas, nor by austerity, nor by gift, nor by sacrifice, can I be seen in this form as you have seen me (so easily). 54. But by single-minded devotion can I, of this form, be known and seen in reality and also entered into, Arjuna! With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor) --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, A ray of light has 9 colors. But we see it as white. A minute dot of water try on your computer screen, it will reflect nine colours. The light is one but has 9 colours within. Jai Sri Kriahna B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ Jai Hanuman Mr Bhatt ! You said :In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of " myself " and objects are one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discrimination in dealing with them! Can you elaborate as to how considering reality of " What exists " (Self) and " what does not exist at all " (objects) - by considering them (existent and non existent) to be ONE in the beginning itself, " naturally guide me to discrimination/wisdom in dealing with them " ? Say, If I consider myself and body to be ONE in essence , how will I then discriminate? How the reality of yourself and objects is the same/one ? Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER 1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita, relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant to motivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path 2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study 3. Only one question at a time. 4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group's primary aim of deeper understanding of Gita. FOR RESPONDER 1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted. 2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible. 3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka's time. 5. Focus on subject at hand only. 6. Do not include links to the other sites. 7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc). 8. Do not personalize message 9. All responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting. 11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non- sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only. Provide English word bracketed. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Shree HariRam Ram "Vasudeva SarvamEverything is Paramatma (God)" is the ultimate ofall knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this tobe "Vigyaan" and balance all to be "Gyaan" ! To understand /realize the depth of this topic, sadhaks will have to be crisp,precise in stating scriptures. This is not a topic of only wordsand debate. Therefore please kindly pose specific questions andspecific responses - crisply, concisely and precisely based onscriptures only.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! There have been many postings on the subject "Duties of householder...", so I chose this, sort of a new topic. It is to build onShashikalaji's comments on essence of "everything and anything" anduse of viveka. The essence of all things, in our experience is just ONE, UndividedConsciousness! We can never experience "world out there including ourown body" in itself, as absolute truth. We just know it asperceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS-NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). Thus perceived objects are madeup of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them inthe moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separateobjects. Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. We cancall it Vasudev, God, Atman, Paramatman, Reality, Consciousness orwhatever name. This is called Absolute Truth of all our experiences,the true I! In jainism, they have term "NischayNaya", I think.Soon after the perceptions, mind with memory, intellect, etc resolvesthe Wholeness into objects that we are familiar in practical life. Sofirst perceptions, and then conceptions of objects with names happenin our experience! Names and forms are thus relative truth. It ishere that we need to be guided by discrimination to have a properperspective for each such object, so we can all function in the worldof relativity. This is VyavaharNaya in Jainism, I think. When we deeply understand the Essence of all things, being ONEReality, Paramtman, without a second Reality of thusperceived/conceived objeccts, we can function without attachments andthereby without suffering. In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even aswaves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of "myself" and objectsare one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discriminationin dealing with them! Vedanta even goes on to say "knower of Brahman becomes Brahman",Brahman being the Reality, the Essence of all! Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt ---------------------------NEW POSTING Hari OmThat which is constant at the beginning and the end is called Real. What is Real at the beginning and end, is only real when existing at present. What doesn't exist at the beginning and the end, is so at the present also. Of what nature could the reality be, of a thing that does not exist at the beginning and the end? There is no destruction at any time of that which exists.The delusion of the world is of the mind. It is neither Real nor Unreal ! It is not born; and it has risen like a conjuring trick, (causing illusory perceptions) of a number of minds. The same illusion may be seen by a number of persons due to illusion. Therefore, this objective world is not real at any time; nor is it unreal. It is neither real nor unreal as the delusion of a snake in a rope. It has risen like the illusion of dreams and shines like a false idea.The wealth of magic constituting the world is very much exhibited or spread here by mind, as a moving wave, though unreal, is exhibited by a river caused by heat (mirage), as if it were real. Unreal on account of its instability and real on account of its appearance or perception, the world WHICH IS A PROJECTION OF THOUGHT, is of the nature of both reality and unreality as a dream is.As pearl necklaces, feathers of peacock's tail, balls of hair and the like seen in the sky are unreal, but have become reality for those WITH A DEFECTIVE VISION, so, the world appears to those with defective vision. This is only unreality resembling reality and is an appearance. It is uncreated, yet experienced ! It is not Real but EXISTS as reality.Next: Firm Belief of Mind (Sankalpa)Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Beautiful are Expressions of Truth, Itself remaining INEXPRESSIBLE!Many are its Manifestations, Itself remaining ONE Unmanifest!The Essence of Everything and Anything and Nothing!It is heartening to read posts by Vyasji, Nagaji, Narinderji, Moderatorji, Mike, Sathyanarayanji, all sharing the same Wisdom in their own ways! I shared the same understanding hoping it answered Vyasji's tough questions, though not as eloquently!It is a real joy to get booster shots! I thank you all sadhakas! Consciousness, THAT, SELF, THE ABSOLUTE, BELOVED KRISHNA of BG ALL ONE REALITY, DIVINITY! Vasudeva in guise of everything and anything!As Vyasji put it, This is the ultimate subject!To that I would add: And That ultimate Subject is "I". That Sat-Chit-Anand appears(feels/thinks) as "I", the body-mind, I call "me/mine", you call "you/yours", we call "us/ours"! What a trick the magician is playing!Let us unfold it, right now, not later!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt -------------------------Jai HanumanI don't believe in 'theoritical' types of talks. Swamiji also insisted upon simple down to earth conduct. Vyasji appears to be in theoritical mode suddenly. Ok ! He has right to do so ! May be that is necessary too ! But to my mind, practical is more important. Hence here is practical talk on the subject.There are 2 things. Read last Sadhak Message of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj . One- BG 2:16 ! Two- BG 7:19 ! How to 'realise' - Vasudeva Sarvam- BG 7:19 ? Every thing is 'thou and thou' only ! How ? How??Don't understand any one to be bad ! Don't do bad to any one !! Don't wish bad for any one !!! If you see any one indulging in evil thoughts/ deeds/ desires- think : God is playing as per Time - Kaliyuga !! Conduct yourself carefully- as per order of God- BG 2:47 ! But from inside your heart never consider any one to be bad !Enough Jee ! Enough !! Why to be so complex? Be that, if that helps complexity loving Sadhaks ! Why this 'NETI ..NETI' lecture? There is ONLY one existing. 'NETI NETI' is BG 2:16 ! Sure ! But is BG 7:19 clear? NETI NETI ! Why such big talk? Baba ! Simple ! Do objects seen in dream exist in reality ? No ! So long as dream was there, they 'appeared' real ! Where are they now? Who made/ created them? MIND Jee, Mind ! Throw mind into the dust bin ! Where is the world now ? Where are objects ? What NETI NETI ? Why ? Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala - PRIOR POSTING Hari Om On the subject of Vasudeva Sarvam (7:19) or Nasato Vidyate Bhavah (2:16)- main Qis how objects / world do not exist at all? Do we not directly experience theworld ? How to negate that? The fact is that this world is the expansion of Brahman. The triple world iswithin consciousness. Brahman alone appears as the world. The universe createdby Brahma is mental. Brahma has a body consisting only of thought. Hence Brahmais known in the Scriptures as Cosmic Mind. The imagination of objects is of thenature of mere appearance or illusion of Absolute Consciousness. That indeed is described by the word Jeeva ( embodied/individual soul) which isthe natural throb of the pure sky of Consciousness. As there is movement of wind, the hotness of fire or the coldness of ice, so there is Jeevahood of the Self. That Self Principle ( or the Absolute Consciousness) , which is not limited byspace, time etc takes a body held in space and time, through its own power andONLY OUT OF SPORT ! ( Ekaki na ramate ). The Self is spontaneously perceived ,as if it were another, only by itself. When Self produces the energy calledthinking ( or imagination) like wind its power of motion, then, the universalSelf becomes the mind consisting of grasping of thoughts, appearing as it weredifferently, manifesting its form of its own accord. THUS , THE ABSOLUTE CONSCIOUSNESS, IMAGINING ITSELF AS DIFFERENT BY NATURE, GOESAS IT WERE TO THE STATE OF OTHERNESS BY ITSELF , IN THE FORM OF ITS OWN ERROR (i e , such imagination). As the same man indeed becomes another in a moment on account of anger , so, theone of the nature of Pure Consciousness , has gone to the state of otherness,having the stain of error/imagination. For him who considers this collection of rays of solar light as different fromthe Sun, this is indeed different, as it were, from the Sun !!! (Other examples-Gold/Bracelet; Water/Wave; Fire/flame; ) To be contd. In the meantime let there be deliberations/focussed and brief onthe subject / material shared so far. Even Moderators have requested ALL Sadhaksto whole heartedly participate. I will answer each and every question on thesubject. Start asking Qs (on shared material) as I continue taking thedeliberations forward. This is ULTIMATE subject ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B-------------------------------There is nothing else besides Vasudeva, is this sentiment that Bhagwaan hasexpressed mainly for a bhakta (loving devotee)? If you want me to answer this question … "The Truth is everything" is the fact -no matter whether it is told or not, whether it is told to somebody or everybodyor nobody, whether anybody receives it or not, whether anybody accepts it ordisputes it … the very statement covers everything with absolutely noexceptions. But, one who receives the message earnestly is invariably a Bhaktain essence. Isn't so? THAT does not address anybody in particular ... yet,anybody, no matter what, is elligible and capable of approaching THAT! NETI means "anything is not THAT" ... it does not mean "THAT is not anything".THAT is anything and everything. But, nothing can be THAT in isolation as TheTruth cannot be multiple. This results in Mano Naasha (annihilation ofsubjective identity) - that is what I tried to mean in the beginning of myoriginal utterances. But, an individual cannot fathom what THAT means thanks to its self-rooted,self-promoted and self-protected confinement camps called identities. The fellowhelplessly insists the images collected as its identities as "the only reality".It does not mean that The Truth could be excluded even in such ignorance - THATincludes everything without saying. But, the ignorant cannot fathom thewonderful experience of the Universal Presence as it cannot break open itscocoons of ignorance in terms of its beleifs and doubts, desires and fears, andlikes and dislikes. The only way to entice the ignorant to break open itscocoons is to suggest the opposite (NETI) of its beliefs rather strongly. Whenthe deeprooted beliefs are negated strongly, there is a positive chance that onewould look into one's self-proclaimed identities to come out with ajustification. As every image that the ignorant brings out in support, "TheNETI" stands against smashing the images one after the other burning down theignorance hoarded in terms of the images within. When all the images areannihilated, one can experience The Absolute. Unless the individual can fathombeyond the cocoons of beliefs, "Vasudevah Sarvam", The Absolute remains a notionin one's mind. NETI helps breaking all the beliefs helping us attain The Truth. When "NETI" hints upon The Truth, then, "NETI" means "NOT JUST THIS" and not"NOT THIS" … as we apply such an appreciation in our lives, Vasudeva blooms toITS infinitude breaking all the barriers we have gathered. This results in AatmaBodha (Universal Awareness). That is what I tried to mean later in my originalutterances. Anything IS THAT, but anything trapped in a perceived domain is NOT - meaning,"do not limit your appreciation to anything as such … let it flow freelyencompassing the whole universe and beyond … do not confine yourself to anyfigment even if it is the whole universe itself … then, there is an opportunityto witness The Vasudeva, The Lord of All. In fact, "Vasudevah Sarvam" itself is a discriminative notion that is requiredtill the contradictions of real and unreal loom around in one's existence. Once,all the unreal is mitigated, real does not make sense either. Just like "You areeating" is a meaningless statement to the one who is already eating, "VasudevahSarvam" is a meaningless statement to a Prahlada who is already THAT. As Swamijisays, such a natural presence wherein both real and unreal loose their dominionsis "Vasudevah Sarvam" (REFER below). Om Tat Sat! Respects.Naga Narayana. Excerpts from "Sahaja Nivritti" from Sadhan Sudha Sindhu: Asat ko satta denese hee nivritt (sahaja-nivritt) aur praapt (swatah-praapt) -ye do vibhag kahe jaate hai. Asatko satta na de to na nivritt hai, na praapthai, pratyut sattamaatr jyon-ki-tyon hai. Dusare shabdon me, jabtak asatki sattahai, tabtak vivek hai. Asatki satta mitneper vivek hee tattvagnyaanme parinat hojaata hai; kyonki jab asatki satta hai hee nahi, to phir sat hee shesh rahega.Iseeko Geetane "Vasudevah Sarvam" kahaa hai. The distinction between the real (the ever-attained) and the unreal (theever-departing) remains only because one provides importance to the unreal. Oncethe unreal becomes insignificant in one's perception, there is neitherattainable nor unattainable, but mere presence as such. In other words, thediscrimination is present (and required) only till there are traces of theunreal. Once the unreal is annihilated at its core, the same discriminationmatures into realization because, when there is no unreal at all, everything isnothing but the mere presence of all, The Truth, The Sat. This is referred to as"Vasudevah Sarvam" in the Bhagavadgita. PS: Original Hindi version is given, in case, there is any misgivings in itsenglish version. Respects. Naga. --------------------------------Dear Sadaks,Everything is that a worldly man desires. No matter how much wealth, fame, onemay have but a little more. A millionaire, then a multimillionaire, 1st richestman on earth Etc.Anything is for realized one. Anything on earth is Vasudev Swaroop-Poornathuvam, nothing beyond and permanent. So the Gyani cannot have 2 differentthings, he sees Vasudeva Sarvam.Ordinary man sees another person Mr/Mrs X by looks, by his dress, by his wealthEtc. But Gyani sees the same Mr.X inside that illumines is Paramathuma. All theexternal features of Mr.X is unseen.Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan------------------------------- THE NATURE AND EXPERIENCE OF ISNESS ( The essence ) One day, of Krishna , Govinda, Satguru, I asked,O KrishnaGovinda, my Love,Satguru, my Being, pray let me know,What is Realisation?Realisation, answered Krishna , is the IS-NESS of all that ISAnd Beloved, implored within me, What is my IS-NESS ?I cannot say, I cannot tell,Govinda smiled, But IS-NESS happened, it just happened !The Gift of my SatguruAndTime was no more,Nor Space,Nor speech, nor silence,Only ISNESS.In the Eternity of the MomentThe giving of the GiftThe receiving of the GiftNo Giver, No Reciever,Only ISNESS. In the Eternity of the MomentSilence that IS.In the Eternity of the MomentThe Soundless Sound.In the Eternity of the MomentThe One Word.In the Eternity of the MomentThe expansion of the Word, The Vedas.In the Eternity of the MomentAll movement, the World, the Universe.In the Eternity of the MomentTotal stillness, Void,Full-ness absolute.In the Eternity of the MomentOnly IS-NESS.Only IS-NESS, just Is-ness!Only the Giving, only the ReceivingSans Giver, Sans ReceiverOnly IS-NESS.Only IS-NESSOnly gratitudeOnly Loving, choiceless lovingOnly One-ness, Not- two-ness foreverOf the seeker and his Guru, ONlY IS-NESS. AUMnarinder bhandari---------------------------PRIOR POSTING Q: When there is nothing else besides Vasudeva, then where is thequestion of IS NOT? is unclear.... I agree ... there is no room for "IS NOT" ever. THAT IS CORRECT. TheAsat by its very nature is "unreal" and hence "non-existent" on itsown. How can a non-existent be anything at all?! That is nothing butnothing!! The "IS NOT" is just a figment of our imagination when we try tocontain everything that we perceive within the boundaries of ourcognition. The very presence of "IS NOT" just reminds us that we areNOT in The Vignyaana but trapped within our cognitive dependence.Till cognitive dependence rules, whatever perceived DOES NOT LOOK LIKE "SAT",THE REAL to a true seeker - because, the cognition keepschanging the perceived perpetually. It is in this context, all thewise saints say "NETI" ... "IS NOT" is a necessity for seeking Truthtill Asat leaves no traces in our presence. That is the onlyfool-proof way of realizing our ignorance in believing the limitedcognitive perception itself as "the reality". Once the Asat ismitigated encore, ONLY SAT stays, ONLY VIGNYAANA remains, ONLY TRUTHprevails. Applying the essence of appreciation backwards in our dailylife, one would then say that "the so-called Asat" is also THATalone.That means, "The Asat" is non-existent whether we acknowledge or not.Such an understanding can come only after attaining the Tattva. To start with ... under dominion of the discrimination anythingperceived cannot be THE COMPLETE as the preception leaves outinfinitude beyond itself. But once The Absolute is attained, THATalone is prevalent in everything. The very notion of the Asat ismitigated encore and hence one need not verify anything as Satanymore. My most favorite example for this is from Swamiji("Bhagavattattva" in Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga): For a mundane person, the Asat is as crisp and clear as a solid linedrawn on a solid rock (NETI is extremely necessary here).For a truthful seeker of truth, in the beginning, it becomes like aline drawn on sand (Still NETI remains important for progress).For a truth seeker in whom the wisdom has bloomed, its is like a linedrawn on water (NETI fades away as the SAT prevails).For a Tattvagnya who is permanently established in The Vignyaana thatSwamiji refers to, the Asat, the unreal is truly as unreal andillusive as a line drawn in space ... IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST! Thenwhere is the question of IS NOT when we contemplate on "VaasudevahSarvam"? You are right ... then ... "IS NOT" is absolutelyirrelevant; IS alone is relevant as well as prevalent. As you correctly pointed out in your note, most of us (at least I amclear about myself) are NOT EVEN FIT to talk about THAT as I amnowhere near THAT ... ONLY REALIZED ONES such as Swamiji can talk onsuch matter. However, if I have to contemplate on such an idea, I AMBOUND TO BE TRUTHFUL TO THE IDEA RECEIVED IN AS MUCH CLARITY ANDTRANSPARENCY AS POSSIBLE - THAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY. As Swamiji sayswhile teaching us how to apply discrimination ("Vibhaga Yoga", inSadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga), we should adapt the truthfulappreciation that we perceive in the realized ones truthfully ... atleast while contemplating on THAT if not all the time! That is my limited understanding on this. If you want more, I amafraid, the only way is to invoke The Swamiji and such realized onesin our contemplation ... it is a wonderful journey of perpetualremoval of the debris (the unreal) hoarded within ... That is all Ican share on this ... Thank You. Respects. Naga Narayana--------------------------Shree HariRam Ram Nagaji, you say - wise saints say "NETI" ... "IS NOT" is a necessity for seekingTruth. Does that mean "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19), "I am Being (sat,real) and Non-being (asat, unreal) both." There is nothing else besidesVasudeva, is this sentiment that Bhagwaan has expressed mainly for a bhakta(loving devotee)? Sarvottamji,Swamiji has spoken to you about Vasudeva Sarvam, can you provide your insightson what is meant by "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19). All sadhaks welcome toshare on Gita 9:19. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------------------------- Thank you, Naga Narayana jee............ ISNESS narinder bhandari---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING "Vasudeva SarvamEverything is Paramatma (God)" is the ultimate ofall knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this tobe "Vigyaan" and balance all to be "Gyaan" ! What a wonderful statement! We most often jump aroundconsidering "Gnyaana" itself as "Vignyaana"!! Brihadaaranyaka(4.2.12) makes an acute observation on this. Yagnyavalkya concludesthat, "No gnyaana can ever be present in Moksha". Everything is THATVIGNYAANA alone. He calls IT "Vignyaanaghana" - purest essence ofall intelligence. We often get carried away by our informativerelational rationale to address the same. Vasudeva includes everything ... there is no room outside Him. Pl.refer to Vishwarupa Darshana Yoga. HE includes Duryodhana and thegang as much as the Yudhishthira and the gang. HE includes the mostpowerful of all as much as the weakest of all. HE includes therichest as much as the poorest. No parameter in any dimension canever outrange HIM! The discrimination and rationale can rule onlythe domain of Gnyaana ... not The Vignyaana. Again, it is an opinion projected through the mechanism ofGnyaana ... therefore, pl. treat it just that way. Respects. Naga Narayana---------------------------- MEW POSTING Vasudevah Sarvam - The Essence of ALL The essence of everything is THAT, The Absolute. The Matter IS THAT, but some matter trapped in a perceived body isNOT. The Energy IS THAT, but some energy trapped in a packet of matter is NOT.The Action IS THAT, but an action trapped in a packet of matter andenergy is NOT.The Thought IS THAT, but a thought trapped in an action is NOT.The Experience IS THAT, but an experience trapped in a thought isNOT.The Happiness IS THAT, but a happiness trapped in an experience isNOT. The Essence of all the joys ISThe Essence of all the experiences ISThe Essence of all the thoughts ISThe Essence of all the actions ISThe Essence of all the bodies ISThe Essence of all the energy ISThe Essence of all the matter IS... ... ...The essence of anything IS... ... ...The essence of everything ISThe Essence of ALL.The Absolute.The Truth. Vasudevah Sarvam. Respects.Naga Narayana--------------------------Shree HariRam RamNaga Narayanaji, Some further clarity needed on second note. IfEverything is Vasudeva (Gita 7:19), then is there a "is Not" assuch? "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19), "I am Being (sat, real) andNon-being (asat, unreal) both." When there is nothing else besidesVasudeva, then where is the question of IS NOT? is unclear....From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram-------------------------- Sadhakas, Namaste!It is a great privilege to be part of this wisdom platform sharingwith each other and learning along the way by bringing inexperiences in light of scriptural injunctions or pointers fromspiritual teachers! As Vyasji put it, then, we can have moremeaningful deliberations.With deep respects and divine friendship, I would answer thequestions posed by Vyasji as best as I can through the words. Itwill be better to break them in different posts.1. How can we experience undivided Consciousness at the outset?We do experience as such, it is just not noticed that way.Consciousness appears to be divided as many objects, split secondlater, after initial perception. Consciousness cannot be divided,only seems to be so like a movie characters seem to divide ONElight. Attraction for the seen objects distracts us from the non-divisible SEER of all objects!If one notices one doesn't see a particular object initially, onesees as if the view in front of our eyes is totally enveloped in thespace surrounding it, as if in the ocean of space, we see waves offorms, upon initial perceptions by senses as raw sensations. Thisocean of space itself is in the ocean of Consciousness, so to speak,as only a Conscious Being can perceive such space. However, thoughtarises "I see a chair there". Notice, when this is said, the time ofinitial perception is elapsed, so our recognizing a particularobject is in time-space fabric, an integral part of the thought "Isee a chair", chair being from past memory! By the time werecognize, it is already past, as all such thoughts are. We cannever know the separate objects without such thoughts and when weknow they are past. Object-thoughts are like waves in the Ocean ofConsciousness, so all objects including body we call ours arethoughts-Consciousness in our actual experience. The statement "Isee a chair" is not our experience in this sense, but isconceptualization of wholeness of experience for the sake oflanguage. Only seeing which is being conscious of, is experiential,I-thought as individual is identification with body-mind ofConsciousness and Chair-thought is memory. THAT Which isexperiential is always with us, and is Consciousness Itself, whereas experiences of objects as thoughts are fleeting!It is, as though, from Totality of view in front of us, we areextracting each object by offering it space and time to exist in ourthoughts-mind, in what seems to be division into many objects.Please see this fact: our thoughts manifest objects! When we are notconscious of objects, they remain non-manifest as in deep sleep!As this part of our experience is not noticed and deeplycontemplated upon, we see only separate objects and forgetting thatseparate objects are in mind as thoughts in terms of words(namesbeing time dimension and shape being space dimension).Also it is to be noticed that these objects are Consciousness ofthem, totally subjective in nature because objects don't participatein our re-cognition of them. No objects tells us what it is, only wecall them this or that. If we call cat a dog, or dog a cat, nothinghappens to them intrinsically. In otherwords, dog is true onlyrelative to everything else we know that is "not dog-like". Thus allnames are dependent on our agreement to call them as such so we canfunction and discriminate relatively, it is just a pragmatism only.A dog or any name for that matter is not absolute truth of theobject as referred to by that name. In absolute Truth everythinghas to be undivided, and nameless ONE which we call Existence, Is-ness intrinsic to all objects, and is referred to as SELF, Atman inthe context of sentient beings meaning Existence that knows Itself,self-evident Light of Consciousness, Being is "consciousness ofbeing" and consciousness is "being". Sat is Chit and Chit is Sat andis everyone's experience all the time even if not noticed as in deepsleep! And "we" are THAT Absolutely!This is Vedanta proclamation!PS: Consciousness as I used it above is THAT Absolute Existencewhich perceives through each body-mind all objects, while ITSELFremaining non-perceivable ever through senses and mind. However, itis ever present, deep rooted PRESENCE in us of Existence by whichall else is known. IT is the ultimate Knowingness! It is our True I,we, they, all such pronouns, we use for ourselves, but are taken asindividuals.Finally all such words including Consciousness too are concepts, butuseful to point to TRUTH, which can only be pointed to our BEING-NESS!This may answer some questions, more later...Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!More on Vyasji's questions: Pardon me, I have to repeat some points,no choice!We cannot experience the world "out there", means the world we thinkis external to us by thinking our body ends at the surface of outerskin. The world and body appear in our Consciousness as perceptions,so we only experience our perceptions of world, and body."Body" is name given to being conscious of sensations, feelings ofpains, discomforts, sensual pleasures etc, Such body is "my body" isalso due to identification with such feelings and sensations callingit "me", and is thus not experiential.If all these are seen as appearances in Consciousness, and knowinglyidentify with Consciousness as I, the seer of all that is "seen",the discrimination happens. Next the world and body experiencedinwardly is found to be consisting of Consciousness only. Then onecan say "I am not this body, but this body, along with all otherbodies, are in "ME" as Consciousness, All bodies are mine! This iswhat Vasudevah Sarvam to me. This is because anything oneexperiences is at once at a zero distance from Consciouseness!Our connection to the apparent world and body is only through thisConsciousness, Chaitanya! For instance, a thought about a chairoriginates, is sustained and dissolves in us without ever touchingthe outside chair! So chair we experioence is chair-thought only,not the chaor in itself!Everything as a whole is Divine SELF, not an individual body takenexclusively as mine! The body, mind and the World are in ME asKrishna says, but I am not in them if taken as individual objects.Now the real outside world in and of itself cannot be named asseparate objects, because then it is from the mind-names-forms only.This nameless reality is Brahman, The absolute, THAT, Ishwara, orwhatever name we give,is in reality nameless or all names are only HIS names! IF we nameobjects, then, from mind only we can do so, and thus ones isrelative to others. No named object can stand on its own leg asabsolute truth, it needs the legs of others to stand and validateit. Oneness is Reality of experience and the separate objects areconcepts and thus to be discriminated for what its worth based onpragmatism!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt-------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Meditation continues in the form of answers to Vyasji's questionswith deep appreciation!Hopefully last two posts with this one cover most of the remainingones from no 3 onward!When I refer to we or I or any pronouns it means Consciousness orAtman that we are, the only Reality. However, we need to refer to usindividually for communication purpose and many practical reasons.In this spirit it is Consciousness as Sadhakas are questioning andanswering!Anything we know is Consciousness knowing Itself only becauseultimate Knower is THAT as us, and what is known are appearances assuch made up of thoughts as mind and feelings as bodily sensations,all perceived objects!Consciousness-Atman is the experience of Conscious Existence,indwelling Presence, Isness, and is self evident, no other knowerneeded to know this Presence or ISNess.It is not a state, or attribute. It is what it IS! As said before,It perceives only Itself as undivided(God sees everything God only,to God there is not everything else). This is said to emphasize theself-effulgence, self-luminous aspect, not attribute. ThisPerception is the whole and not time-space bound so it is notcreated, nor destroyed. However, when we separate It as objects byconceiving through thoughts in time-space fabric, specific objectthus conceived can end in time, but its Beingness cannot bedestroyed as it belongs to Totality from which it emerged and intowhich it dissolves!When I use "We perceive", I mean we as Consciousness perceives andendows mind to conceive objects so that Leela can go on! We manifesteverything out of ONE thing by conceiving through mind this Totalityjust as spider weaves web out of itself and then winds it in itself!This is our freedom to be Individual too!Can another object perceive? no, object itself is perceived. OnlyConsciousness being chaitanya perceives.By Perception, I mean raw sensations-data that sense-complex in thepresence of Atman seems to produce as Consciousness of ????.Conception is what I call perceptions resolved as objects with mind-intellect and when such mind assumes itself as knower, it isEGO/Jeeva, considering it as separate reality of beig subject apartfrom Real KNOWER!Nature of objects perceived/conceived are thus experienced by usonly as Consciousness, but we equate such objects with outsideobjects for which we have no direct knowledge. We only experienceour perceptions of the world which are subjective only, never theworld itself! In otherwords, world cannot be perceived independentof Consciousness in our experience!The way I use "experience" is that it is discrete, has beginningwith objects perceived as thoughts/feelings and end only to replacewith another such objects. "Experiential" to me, is that which iscontinuous, never begins or ends, is subjective in nature but freeof attributes of pairs of opposites, shines attributes-gunas ofobjects, always present as background or substratum of allappearances. It is Consciousness that IS or Brahman!Perceived and Perceiving Consciousness-Atman are same in the sensethat waves are perceived while ocean is perceiving Itself. For thepurpose of Leela, play, or Maya principle Consciousness forgets andconsiders appearances as Real until It chooses to end the game insome apparent birth and returns Home apparently as It never leftHome! Maya is not a problem, to consider it as Real is the problem!I think these answers questions on the path starting with oneself toreach ONE SELF, from SakshiBhav to SarvatmBhav, from "me" to ME,from personal being to Impersonal BEING and finally feel VasudevSarvam!I remain open to further dialogues!Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt-PRIOR POSTINGHari Om Pratapji ! I am sorry inspite of making efforts , I could notunderstand a lot of your Article. Hence I humbly seek elucidation byyou on the first part of your article.. That should make thedeliberations more productive, and fruitful, at least morecomprehensible. I seek your forgiveness for being of dullerintellect. Hope you will bless me with answers : 1 How do you say at the outset that we all areexperiencing "undivided consciousness"? Are we really ? I thought weare experiencing 'individual consciousness' only whichmeans 'divided' and not 'undivided' ! 2 You said : We can never experience "world out there including ourown body" in itself, as absolute truth. Out where? Why can't we experience the body as truth? Is not almostentire humanity experiencing the body as Self? For what Scripturesare struggling, otherwise? How it is relative? Relative to what?Where is the Q of absolute or relative Truth in "experiencing" ? "Initself" means in " which self" ? What is "itself" ? 3 You said: We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which isConsciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). We know what as perception ? Who is knowing? Who is that "we"? Whatis IS-NESS ? Is it a state / attribute or the ONLY thing ? If it isan attribute then there must be an experiencer also ? If there is noexperiencer then of what avail are the statements made by you sofrequently such as "we experience, perceiver, perceived, we" etc ?How can consciousness ( chetana) in itself perceive? Perceive whatwhen there is nothing except that ONLY existing? 4 Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu,Consciousness, as we experience them inthe moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separateobjects. Who is the experiencer( We) ? Is there any or there is "IS NESSONLY" sans experiencer? How objects are same as IS NESS ? "THUS"means what? What have you stated in previous two/three sentences ormore which makes you to conclude that nature of objects is same asthat of "us" ? Too fast a conclusion , Sir ? Please state the basisfor such conclusion ! Can objects also experience or perceive ? Doobjects exist? If yes, then do they have same property as "we" (inyour words) have? If no, where is the Q their being ONE with wholeor having same property as "we" have ? Is "Consciousness" sentientor inert? Or neither of them? Where is the need for discriminationif both are sentient or both are inert ? Where is the need forScriptures- if both YOGA and BHOGA are same? 5 You said: Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? What is your view? Are they same? If yes, how? If no, why not? Ifperceived, perception, and perceiver are same, then how the Q oftheir being same or not arises? Where does it arise?In whom does it arise? If they are not same, how there is ONE only ? 6 So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. "Experientially" - of whose experience, Pratapji ? How you havesaid "essentially"? Is it so ? What makes them ONE experientially?Are we experiencing that? Is their any EXPERIENCER of that state ofIS NESS (existence) or not ? Yes or No !! Pratapji ! Consider me as Devil's Advocate only and respond so thatall may benefit - SATSANGA !! Beauty lies there !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------Dear Sadaks,Contemplate on Sant Jadabharat in Srimat Bagavath talking to kingRaguguna on palanquin,saying "Oh king Raguguna, for me the palanquin, you and me are oneand the same from same earth". Can Sadaks pass their views in crisp.If everything and anything is same, where comes the question of SriKrishna telling Arjuna to wage war with Kauravas. Here Arjuna is oneand the other is Kauravas. But essence of everything and anything iscorrect. HOW?Jai Sri KrishanaB.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!I really appreciate Mike and Shashikalaji for their feedback andresponse. It helps my own understanding really as it works as abooster shot! I relate to what Mike said while reading Ch 11 andappreciate it too in the same spirit.Let me answer the question raised by Shashikalaji! First of all myrespects to her as she was the instrumental in making me share thispost!In the beginning, we are told by Scriptures or Realized souls likeSwamiji, you are not body-mind-sense complex, you are sentient andthe world being inert. So disidentify with such objects as they areperishable while you are Imperishable Atman or Consciousness! Whendeeply contemplated, "you"(?) take your stand as Witnessing Presencewithin, relative to everything being witnessed(SakshiBhav). This isessential first step, The crown jewel of Discrimination(vivekchudamani) between what one is, Atman, Conscious Being, andeverything witnessed, and both are apart. That which isperceived/conceived(body-mind-world) is distinct from all PerceivingConsciousness or Awareness. However, this is still relative truthas you are witness only relative to witnessed!Now comes Vasudev Sarvam or SarvatmaBhav! As you may appreciate bylooking openly at our inner experience at the time of perceptions itis NEVER that of separate objects.It is one Wholeness because one sees so many objects and spacecontaining them including one's own body, all at once. This is as ifin a pitch dark room one sees only dense-mass of darkness, onecannot even see one's own body! All of a sudden light is turned onand one sees separate objects as if they are materialized fromoneness of darkness surrounding them. Similarly we separate andconceive objects when we think "this is chair, this is table, thisis another person, this is me etc. These very thoughts of ours havetime and space embaded in them(Actually Consciousness creates time-space through us) so they help conceive separate objects we arefamiliar with outside. Nevertheless, they are experienced assubjective thoughts of those objects which we think are outsideindependently, not true. Such thoughts are Consciousness shaped upas those objects in all our exoeriences, just as water is shaped aswaves in the ocean.In other words, an object has to be one with Consciousness in orderfor it to be experienced by us, Conscious Being! So all we reallyexperience is Consciousness itself as body-mind and world. There isnothing else in our experience other than Consciousness, Reality,ISNESS! This very Consciousness is Absolute Existence, oneHomogeneous mass, so to speak, experientially! IT is what weeseentially are, and It is not personal, is shared by each body-mind! As a matter of fact there is nothing personal in the entirecosmos! We are like a window for Absolute to see through us andenjoy ITSELF as World(leela)!This is Vasudev Sarvam! All there is is this Consciousness, Brahman!So when we say objects don't have existence, it means separateobjects don't exist as they appear to be independent of ourexistence, however, Absolute Existence or BEINGNESS never ceases tobe disguised as diversity, the meaning of BG Ch 2:16.No one has ever experienced world in itself, it has been alwaysthrough being Conscious and as Consciousness. In and of itselfeverything is ONE UNDIVIDED BEINGNESS which Consciousness!Thus we deal with relative objects based on how they appear in ourmiinds, likes and dislikes due to conditioned by such objects takenreal!However, with this understanding Relative world of objects arediscriminated properly as you have suggested, and the biggest helpis that we don't get attached to them and fall apart.Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari- Dear Pratap Bhatt, I read your article several times, and it made me think deeply, thatis really good. It reminded me of things I meditated on, discussedand even experienced and so on. My mind went to Bhagavad Gita Ch.11 the revelation of Lord Krishna'sSupreme form (Ishwara).Before I continue I would like to share something. I read the wholeof the chapter, I was in a very focused state of mind, as I read theHoly Gita, something happened, yes I was reading it in English, butthe language of it faded away, I felt as if I were right there in astrange way, I felt I was a privileged observer, the richness of thewhole thing was fixed in my mind, hmmm, thats the best way mystumbling words can put it.(Most inadequately). Getting back to Gitaji Ch 11, Arjuna saw Shri Krishna, who heconsidered to be a great friend, in an overpowering form, I presumeonly Arjuna witnessed this, or more correctly was given the gift toperceive Ishwara, his senses were confounded he was terrified, andthen of course the vision left him. A friend of mine who was a walking encyclopedia, said that 90% of allwe perceive is filtered out, otherwise we could not function.(I thinkI read that somewhere myself).My proviso is the focused mind can transcend these limitations, andthe most powerful focus one can have is the 'The Divine Beloved'. B.G. 1153. Neither by the Vedas, nor by austerity, nor by gift, nor bysacrifice, can I be seen in this form as you have seen me (soeasily). 54. But by single-minded devotion can I, of this form, be known andseen in reality and also entered into, Arjuna! With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor)--------------------------- Dear Sadaks,A ray of light has 9 colors. But we see it as white. A minute dot ofwater try on your computer screen, it will reflect nine colours. Thelight is one but has 9 colours within.Jai Sri KriahnaB.Sathyanarayan------------------------------Jai Hanuman Mr Bhatt ! You said :In summary objects experienced are one withConsciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Realityof "myself" and objectsare one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discriminationin dealing with them! Can you elaborate as to how considering reality of "What exists"(Self) and "what does not exist at all" (objects) - by consideringthem (existent and non existent) to be ONE in the beginningitself, "naturally guide me to discrimination/wisdom in dealing withthem" ? Say, If I consider myself and body tobe ONE in essence , how will I then discriminate? How the reality ofyourself and objects is the same/one ? Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita,relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant tomotivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group'sprimary aim of deeper understanding of Gita. FOR RESPONDER1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka'stime.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Shree HariRam Ram "Vasudeva SarvamEverything is Paramatma (God)" is the ultimate ofall knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this tobe "Vigyaan" and balance all to be "Gyaan" ! To understand /realize the depth of this topic, sadhaks will have to be crisp,precise in stating scriptures. This is not a topic of only wordsand debate. Therefore please kindly pose specific questions andspecific responses - crisply, concisely and precisely based onscriptures only.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! There have been many postings on the subject "Duties of householder...", so I chose this, sort of a new topic. It is to build onShashikalaji's comments on essence of "everything and anything" anduse of viveka. The essence of all things, in our experience is just ONE, UndividedConsciousness! We can never experience "world out there including ourown body" in itself, as absolute truth. We just know it asperceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS-NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). Thus perceived objects are madeup of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them inthe moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separateobjects. Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. We cancall it Vasudev, God, Atman, Paramatman, Reality, Consciousness orwhatever name. This is called Absolute Truth of all our experiences,the true I! In jainism, they have term "NischayNaya", I think.Soon after the perceptions, mind with memory, intellect, etc resolvesthe Wholeness into objects that we are familiar in practical life. Sofirst perceptions, and then conceptions of objects with names happenin our experience! Names and forms are thus relative truth. It ishere that we need to be guided by discrimination to have a properperspective for each such object, so we can all function in the worldof relativity. This is VyavaharNaya in Jainism, I think. When we deeply understand the Essence of all things, being ONEReality, Paramtman, without a second Reality of thusperceived/conceived objeccts, we can function without attachments andthereby without suffering. In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even aswaves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of "myself" and objectsare one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discriminationin dealing with them! Vedanta even goes on to say "knower of Brahman becomes Brahman",Brahman being the Reality, the Essence of all! Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt ---------------------------NEW POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Here is the Ultimate Subject, The LIGHT of all lights. Pujya Swamiji's most profound message yet!This Light is what we ARE, not what is lighted, the body-mind-world! See it is not theoretical at all, is our experience as these words are written and read! Please, please!Swamiji says once this discrimination between Vasudeva, the Light, the imperishable, and Sarvam, the lighted, the perishables takes place, Realization of Vasudeva Servam also takes place! What it means that lighted objects considered as separate objects are perishables due to their existence in time-space causality, but when Lighted are see as One totality(which is our innermost experience), they are ONE Light, Non-dual! Our problem is we give thus lighted and illumined objects reality and get attached or resist them, while the Illuminator, the Only Reality, ISNESS gets IGNORED!Then he says: "There is nothing to be done. There is no description of this experience. It simply IS. Absolute stillness." Note here as he says, no description, only EXPERIENCE! In the vedantic text called Panchdashi, the entire chapter 10 "Natak Deepah" or "Lamp of the theater stage" is devoted to illustrate this point!This post is an expression of my appreciation, gratitude and Pranaam to Swamiji! I hope Sadhakas will be helped tremendously upon serious contemplation!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt----------------- Hari OmAgreed Jee ! But theory has its own beauty, particularly when it emanates straight from Holy Scriptures. Oh ! What a bliss Yoga Vaashishtha brings to the Sadhak. The objects seen in dream were only creations of mind, where seen, seeing and seer- all was mind only.That is considered as the mind which is the form of the Infinite Principle (tattwa) of the Self, the all-powerful Supreme Spirit, created by its power of thought or will (sankalpa) ! The Supreme Consciousness, excited by the powers of movement in the form of space and time and pusuing imagination, attains to the position of grasping things. This vibration or movement is of the nature of imagination of objects. This Supreme Consciousness flows forth by itself, imagining objects which have gone beyond its nature. Itself having faded all around , it is enfeebled. That is considered as MIND.The Consciousness which is associated with objects imagined is declared as comprehension or grasping of ideas. That state of Consciousness which is intent on objects is considered as the sprout of imagination. Consciousness, thinking of objects perceived as if they are distinct from itself, attains to the state of imagination, like a seed attaining to the state of a sprout !!Vasudeva and the world are one and real. The One is existing as the Many and the whole appears not to be so. The Pure is spread as Impure. That which is not void (Paramatma) appears as void (world) and the void is manifested as non void. That which is large is like a thing which is not large and the one which is not expanded qppears like one expanded. That which is immutable appears LIKE ONE LIABLE TO CHANGE. The one which is equal and calm appears like one disturbed. The real one is INVISIBLE like a non existent thing. Only THAT has risen like one which is not THAT !! The undivided one appears like divided. THE ONE WHICH IS NOT INACTIVE HAS BECOME LIKE ONE WHICH IS INERT. Though unknowable, it appears as one having the nature of the known. Without parts, it is shining like one with parts. He who is not "I" appears like I. One without destruction appears as one which is perishable.Though free from Maya (illusion), it is like the stainless sun with a circular orb of illusory rays. Know that Brahman as the Lord of the Wise, as you know the great ocean as the lord of the waters !!Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ---- Dear sadaks,Question: How to not see the world (inert, temporary), and instead see ONLY God ? (Sansaar ne dikhkar, kewal Paramatma Kaise dikhey?)May this be a little bit of message for clarity.Sukh Brama was walking away from his father Veda Vyas. His father was following his son. In a pond there were woman bathing clotheslines. As Sukh was walking along they never even bothered. But when his father Ved Vyas walking the woman raped themselves in clothes. Ved Vyas aasked these woman, "Why are you woman clothing looking at me? My son is teen ager and you woman neglect him. " Woman answered, ' Saint Vyasji it is your first cause that because you are asking this question, that is you see us and yourself as 2 objects. While Sukhji see the trees around, birds of air, prakurthi and us with NO differance. Sukhji see Sarvam Para Bramam. One and the only one. ''Sadaks, seeing, hearing, talking etc should not be attached in mind level as objects of pleasures. Eyes can see but mind should be tuned to Neti (Negate) the objects on earth, such that mind should cast eagerness to see Guru, Parents, Bagavan. Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Shri Hari Very interesting idea "Light of all Lights" message from world to divinity Ram Ram Pawan Singhal ---- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Some posts of Sadhakas seemed theoretical to Shashikalaji! However, these posts echo Advaita Vedanta, a rare Gem of Seers of Truth! With all the respects, to some of us, this is the most practical as it addresses the ignorance at its core. There are many approaches to Truth, some simple and some not-so-simple depending upon sadhakas.Why not we share what we understand by putting them on this platform and let all take a look and decide for themselves with open mind. Many aspects of Gita and Swamiji's teachings are preparatory in nature to make us eligible to receive the Ultimate Subject, our true nature! For example, advice such as "don't get attached to world, give up doership/enjoyership, Don't think bad of anyone" etc find extraordinary meanings and get implemented naturally when one understands one is not an individual one thinks one is. All attachments are inherent in the individual, not in the world objects, as any separate entity finds the need to defend its interests at any cost even if its unfair to other such individuals. Strange as it may sound, we don't have any proof we are such autonomous individuals! "I am this body and so and so..." is just a false belief taken real, and we kill each other if we have to for this belief! Also the doer we assume ourselves to be is really the "skill, know-how, knowledge etc" stored as intellect that we identify with all our life without questioning, taking as I, the doer. See this intellect is also given to us! It is losing sight of this truth and keep trying to be free of doership. Seeing the truth of this liberates from doership while doing karmas! Otherwise we keep fighting to get rid of perceived doer with believed doer!Neti, Neti approach is not just talk, nor complex! We make it complex by not giving it a try!In this approach, we are asked to see that anything and everything known by mind is defined in space-time imposing attributes, etc thus making them limited, and therefore, it cannot be Iti, Iti or Vasudeva being Unlimited!Upon deep understanding, mind gives up all attempts to hold THAT, naturally, and thus in the emptiness of such mind Vsudeva invites Himself in and takes the reins of that carriage becoming its charioteer!The point is that if our mind is simple enough like that of famous Bhaktas, like Meera, Devotion path may sound simple, and if we are given to inquiry, let it be so! Ultimately its the mind that needs to be Silent on its own as it cannot be made silent by dismissing it when it wants to know answers! Samadhan - "Understanding with satisfaction" plays a major role in silence of the mind than even Samadhi, if mind is asking and asking!Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari OmThat which is constant at the beginning and the end is called Real. What is Real at the beginning and end, is only real when existing at present. What doesn't exist at the beginning and the end, is so at the present also. Of what nature could the reality be, of a thing that does not exist at the beginning and the end? There is no destruction at any time of that which exists.The delusion of the world is of the mind. It is neither Real nor Unreal ! It is not born; and it has risen like a conjuring trick, (causing illusory perceptions) of a number of minds. The same illusion may be seen by a number of persons due to illusion. Therefore, this objective world is not real at any time; nor is it unreal. It is neither real nor unreal as the delusion of a snake in a rope. It has risen like the illusion of dreams and shines like a false idea.The wealth of magic constituting the world is very much exhibited or spread here by mind, as a moving wave, though unreal, is exhibited by a river caused by heat (mirage), as if it were real. Unreal on account of its instability and real on account of its appearance or perception, the world WHICH IS A PROJECTION OF THOUGHT, is of the nature of both reality and unreality as a dream is.As pearl necklaces, feathers of peacock's tail, balls of hair and the like seen in the sky are unreal, but have become reality for those WITH A DEFECTIVE VISION, so, the world appears to those with defective vision. This is only unreality resembling reality and is an appearance. It is uncreated, yet experienced ! It is not Real but EXISTS as reality.Next: Firm Belief of Mind (Sankalpa)Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Beautiful are Expressions of Truth, Itself remaining INEXPRESSIBLE!Many are its Manifestations, Itself remaining ONE Unmanifest!The Essence of Everything and Anything and Nothing!It is heartening to read posts by Vyasji, Nagaji, Narinderji, Moderatorji, Mike, Sathyanarayanji, all sharing the same Wisdom in their own ways! I shared the same understanding hoping it answered Vyasji's tough questions, though not as eloquently!It is a real joy to get booster shots! I thank you all sadhakas! Consciousness, THAT, SELF, THE ABSOLUTE, BELOVED KRISHNA of BG ALL ONE REALITY, DIVINITY! Vasudeva in guise of everything and anything!As Vyasji put it, This is the ultimate subject!To that I would add: And That ultimate Subject is "I". That Sat-Chit-Anand appears(feels/thinks) as "I", the body-mind, I call "me/mine", you call "you/yours", we call "us/ours"! What a trick the magician is playing!Let us unfold it, right now, not later!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt -------------------------Jai HanumanI don't believe in 'theoritical' types of talks. Swamiji also insisted upon simple down to earth conduct. Vyasji appears to be in theoritical mode suddenly. Ok ! He has right to do so ! May be that is necessary too ! But to my mind, practical is more important. Hence here is practical talk on the subject.There are 2 things. Read last Sadhak Message of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj . One- BG 2:16 ! Two- BG 7:19 ! How to 'realise' - Vasudeva Sarvam- BG 7:19 ? Every thing is 'thou and thou' only ! How ? How??Don't understand any one to be bad ! Don't do bad to any one !! Don't wish bad for any one !!! If you see any one indulging in evil thoughts/ deeds/ desires- think : God is playing as per Time - Kaliyuga !! Conduct yourself carefully- as per order of God- BG 2:47 ! But from inside your heart never consider any one to be bad !Enough Jee ! Enough !! Why to be so complex? Be that, if that helps complexity loving Sadhaks ! Why this 'NETI ..NETI' lecture? There is ONLY one existing. 'NETI NETI' is BG 2:16 ! Sure ! But is BG 7:19 clear? NETI NETI ! Why such big talk? Baba ! Simple ! Do objects seen in dream exist in reality ? No ! So long as dream was there, they 'appeared' real ! Where are they now? Who made/ created them? MIND Jee, Mind ! Throw mind into the dust bin ! Where is the world now ? Where are objects ? What NETI NETI ? Why ? Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala - PRIOR POSTING Hari Om On the subject of Vasudeva Sarvam (7:19) or Nasato Vidyate Bhavah (2:16)- main Qis how objects / world do not exist at all? Do we not directly experience theworld ? How to negate that? The fact is that this world is the expansion of Brahman. The triple world iswithin consciousness. Brahman alone appears as the world. The universe createdby Brahma is mental. Brahma has a body consisting only of thought. Hence Brahmais known in the Scriptures as Cosmic Mind. The imagination of objects is of thenature of mere appearance or illusion of Absolute Consciousness. That indeed is described by the word Jeeva ( embodied/individual soul) which isthe natural throb of the pure sky of Consciousness. As there is movement of wind, the hotness of fire or the coldness of ice, so there is Jeevahood of the Self. That Self Principle ( or the Absolute Consciousness) , which is not limited byspace, time etc takes a body held in space and time, through its own power andONLY OUT OF SPORT ! ( Ekaki na ramate ). The Self is spontaneously perceived ,as if it were another, only by itself. When Self produces the energy calledthinking ( or imagination) like wind its power of motion, then, the universalSelf becomes the mind consisting of grasping of thoughts, appearing as it weredifferently, manifesting its form of its own accord. THUS , THE ABSOLUTE CONSCIOUSNESS, IMAGINING ITSELF AS DIFFERENT BY NATURE, GOESAS IT WERE TO THE STATE OF OTHERNESS BY ITSELF , IN THE FORM OF ITS OWN ERROR (i e , such imagination). As the same man indeed becomes another in a moment on account of anger , so, theone of the nature of Pure Consciousness , has gone to the state of otherness,having the stain of error/imagination. For him who considers this collection of rays of solar light as different fromthe Sun, this is indeed different, as it were, from the Sun !!! (Other examples-Gold/Bracelet; Water/Wave; Fire/flame; ) To be contd. In the meantime let there be deliberations/focussed and brief onthe subject / material shared so far. Even Moderators have requested ALL Sadhaksto whole heartedly participate. I will answer each and every question on thesubject. Start asking Qs (on shared material) as I continue taking thedeliberations forward. This is ULTIMATE subject ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B-------------------------------There is nothing else besides Vasudeva, is this sentiment that Bhagwaan hasexpressed mainly for a bhakta (loving devotee)? If you want me to answer this question … "The Truth is everything" is the fact -no matter whether it is told or not, whether it is told to somebody or everybodyor nobody, whether anybody receives it or not, whether anybody accepts it ordisputes it … the very statement covers everything with absolutely noexceptions. But, one who receives the message earnestly is invariably a Bhaktain essence. Isn't so? THAT does not address anybody in particular ... yet,anybody, no matter what, is elligible and capable of approaching THAT! NETI means "anything is not THAT" ... it does not mean "THAT is not anything".THAT is anything and everything. But, nothing can be THAT in isolation as TheTruth cannot be multiple. This results in Mano Naasha (annihilation ofsubjective identity) - that is what I tried to mean in the beginning of myoriginal utterances. But, an individual cannot fathom what THAT means thanks to its self-rooted,self-promoted and self-protected confinement camps called identities. The fellowhelplessly insists the images collected as its identities as "the only reality".It does not mean that The Truth could be excluded even in such ignorance - THATincludes everything without saying. But, the ignorant cannot fathom thewonderful experience of the Universal Presence as it cannot break open itscocoons of ignorance in terms of its beleifs and doubts, desires and fears, andlikes and dislikes. The only way to entice the ignorant to break open itscocoons is to suggest the opposite (NETI) of its beliefs rather strongly. Whenthe deeprooted beliefs are negated strongly, there is a positive chance that onewould look into one's self-proclaimed identities to come out with ajustification. As every image that the ignorant brings out in support, "TheNETI" stands against smashing the images one after the other burning down theignorance hoarded in terms of the images within. When all the images areannihilated, one can experience The Absolute. Unless the individual can fathombeyond the cocoons of beliefs, "Vasudevah Sarvam", The Absolute remains a notionin one's mind. NETI helps breaking all the beliefs helping us attain The Truth. When "NETI" hints upon The Truth, then, "NETI" means "NOT JUST THIS" and not"NOT THIS" … as we apply such an appreciation in our lives, Vasudeva blooms toITS infinitude breaking all the barriers we have gathered. This results in AatmaBodha (Universal Awareness). That is what I tried to mean later in my originalutterances. Anything IS THAT, but anything trapped in a perceived domain is NOT - meaning,"do not limit your appreciation to anything as such … let it flow freelyencompassing the whole universe and beyond … do not confine yourself to anyfigment even if it is the whole universe itself … then, there is an opportunityto witness The Vasudeva, The Lord of All. In fact, "Vasudevah Sarvam" itself is a discriminative notion that is requiredtill the contradictions of real and unreal loom around in one's existence. Once,all the unreal is mitigated, real does not make sense either. Just like "You areeating" is a meaningless statement to the one who is already eating, "VasudevahSarvam" is a meaningless statement to a Prahlada who is already THAT. As Swamijisays, such a natural presence wherein both real and unreal loose their dominionsis "Vasudevah Sarvam" (REFER below). Om Tat Sat! Respects.Naga Narayana. Excerpts from "Sahaja Nivritti" from Sadhan Sudha Sindhu: Asat ko satta denese hee nivritt (sahaja-nivritt) aur praapt (swatah-praapt) -ye do vibhag kahe jaate hai. Asatko satta na de to na nivritt hai, na praapthai, pratyut sattamaatr jyon-ki-tyon hai. Dusare shabdon me, jabtak asatki sattahai, tabtak vivek hai. Asatki satta mitneper vivek hee tattvagnyaanme parinat hojaata hai; kyonki jab asatki satta hai hee nahi, to phir sat hee shesh rahega.Iseeko Geetane "Vasudevah Sarvam" kahaa hai. The distinction between the real (the ever-attained) and the unreal (theever-departing) remains only because one provides importance to the unreal. Oncethe unreal becomes insignificant in one's perception, there is neitherattainable nor unattainable, but mere presence as such. In other words, thediscrimination is present (and required) only till there are traces of theunreal. Once the unreal is annihilated at its core, the same discriminationmatures into realization because, when there is no unreal at all, everything isnothing but the mere presence of all, The Truth, The Sat. This is referred to as"Vasudevah Sarvam" in the Bhagavadgita. PS: Original Hindi version is given, in case, there is any misgivings in itsenglish version. Respects. Naga. --------------------------------Dear Sadaks,Everything is that a worldly man desires. No matter how much wealth, fame, onemay have but a little more. A millionaire, then a multimillionaire, 1st richestman on earth Etc.Anything is for realized one. Anything on earth is Vasudev Swaroop-Poornathuvam, nothing beyond and permanent. So the Gyani cannot have 2 differentthings, he sees Vasudeva Sarvam.Ordinary man sees another person Mr/Mrs X by looks, by his dress, by his wealthEtc. But Gyani sees the same Mr.X inside that illumines is Paramathuma. All theexternal features of Mr.X is unseen.Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan------------------------------- THE NATURE AND EXPERIENCE OF ISNESS ( The essence ) One day, of Krishna , Govinda, Satguru, I asked,O KrishnaGovinda, my Love,Satguru, my Being, pray let me know,What is Realisation?Realisation, answered Krishna , is the IS-NESS of all that ISAnd Beloved, implored within me, What is my IS-NESS ?I cannot say, I cannot tell,Govinda smiled, But IS-NESS happened, it just happened !The Gift of my SatguruAndTime was no more,Nor Space,Nor speech, nor silence,Only ISNESS.In the Eternity of the MomentThe giving of the GiftThe receiving of the GiftNo Giver, No Reciever,Only ISNESS. In the Eternity of the MomentSilence that IS.In the Eternity of the MomentThe Soundless Sound.In the Eternity of the MomentThe One Word.In the Eternity of the MomentThe expansion of the Word, The Vedas.In the Eternity of the MomentAll movement, the World, the Universe.In the Eternity of the MomentTotal stillness, Void,Full-ness absolute.In the Eternity of the MomentOnly IS-NESS.Only IS-NESS, just Is-ness!Only the Giving, only the ReceivingSans Giver, Sans ReceiverOnly IS-NESS.Only IS-NESSOnly gratitudeOnly Loving, choiceless lovingOnly One-ness, Not- two-ness foreverOf the seeker and his Guru, ONlY IS-NESS. AUMnarinder bhandari---------------------------PRIOR POSTING Q: When there is nothing else besides Vasudeva, then where is thequestion of IS NOT? is unclear.... I agree ... there is no room for "IS NOT" ever. THAT IS CORRECT. TheAsat by its very nature is "unreal" and hence "non-existent" on itsown. How can a non-existent be anything at all?! That is nothing butnothing!! The "IS NOT" is just a figment of our imagination when we try tocontain everything that we perceive within the boundaries of ourcognition. The very presence of "IS NOT" just reminds us that we areNOT in The Vignyaana but trapped within our cognitive dependence.Till cognitive dependence rules, whatever perceived DOES NOT LOOK LIKE "SAT",THE REAL to a true seeker - because, the cognition keepschanging the perceived perpetually. It is in this context, all thewise saints say "NETI" ... "IS NOT" is a necessity for seeking Truthtill Asat leaves no traces in our presence. That is the onlyfool-proof way of realizing our ignorance in believing the limitedcognitive perception itself as "the reality". Once the Asat ismitigated encore, ONLY SAT stays, ONLY VIGNYAANA remains, ONLY TRUTHprevails. Applying the essence of appreciation backwards in our dailylife, one would then say that "the so-called Asat" is also THATalone.That means, "The Asat" is non-existent whether we acknowledge or not.Such an understanding can come only after attaining the Tattva. To start with ... under dominion of the discrimination anythingperceived cannot be THE COMPLETE as the preception leaves outinfinitude beyond itself. But once The Absolute is attained, THATalone is prevalent in everything. The very notion of the Asat ismitigated encore and hence one need not verify anything as Satanymore. My most favorite example for this is from Swamiji("Bhagavattattva" in Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga): For a mundane person, the Asat is as crisp and clear as a solid linedrawn on a solid rock (NETI is extremely necessary here).For a truthful seeker of truth, in the beginning, it becomes like aline drawn on sand (Still NETI remains important for progress).For a truth seeker in whom the wisdom has bloomed, its is like a linedrawn on water (NETI fades away as the SAT prevails).For a Tattvagnya who is permanently established in The Vignyaana thatSwamiji refers to, the Asat, the unreal is truly as unreal andillusive as a line drawn in space ... IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST! Thenwhere is the question of IS NOT when we contemplate on "VaasudevahSarvam"? You are right ... then ... "IS NOT" is absolutelyirrelevant; IS alone is relevant as well as prevalent. As you correctly pointed out in your note, most of us (at least I amclear about myself) are NOT EVEN FIT to talk about THAT as I amnowhere near THAT ... ONLY REALIZED ONES such as Swamiji can talk onsuch matter. However, if I have to contemplate on such an idea, I AMBOUND TO BE TRUTHFUL TO THE IDEA RECEIVED IN AS MUCH CLARITY ANDTRANSPARENCY AS POSSIBLE - THAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY. As Swamiji sayswhile teaching us how to apply discrimination ("Vibhaga Yoga", inSadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga), we should adapt the truthfulappreciation that we perceive in the realized ones truthfully ... atleast while contemplating on THAT if not all the time! That is my limited understanding on this. If you want more, I amafraid, the only way is to invoke The Swamiji and such realized onesin our contemplation ... it is a wonderful journey of perpetualremoval of the debris (the unreal) hoarded within ... That is all Ican share on this ... Thank You. Respects. Naga Narayana--------------------------Shree HariRam Ram Nagaji, you say - wise saints say "NETI" ... "IS NOT" is a necessity for seekingTruth. Does that mean "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19), "I am Being (sat,real) and Non-being (asat, unreal) both." There is nothing else besidesVasudeva, is this sentiment that Bhagwaan has expressed mainly for a bhakta(loving devotee)? Sarvottamji,Swamiji has spoken to you about Vasudeva Sarvam, can you provide your insightson what is meant by "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19). All sadhaks welcome toshare on Gita 9:19. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------------------------- Thank you, Naga Narayana jee............ ISNESS narinder bhandari---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING "Vasudeva SarvamEverything is Paramatma (God)" is the ultimate ofall knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this tobe "Vigyaan" and balance all to be "Gyaan" ! What a wonderful statement! We most often jump aroundconsidering "Gnyaana" itself as "Vignyaana"!! Brihadaaranyaka(4.2.12) makes an acute observation on this. Yagnyavalkya concludesthat, "No gnyaana can ever be present in Moksha". Everything is THATVIGNYAANA alone. He calls IT "Vignyaanaghana" - purest essence ofall intelligence. We often get carried away by our informativerelational rationale to address the same. Vasudeva includes everything ... there is no room outside Him. Pl.refer to Vishwarupa Darshana Yoga. HE includes Duryodhana and thegang as much as the Yudhishthira and the gang. HE includes the mostpowerful of all as much as the weakest of all. HE includes therichest as much as the poorest. No parameter in any dimension canever outrange HIM! The discrimination and rationale can rule onlythe domain of Gnyaana ... not The Vignyaana. Again, it is an opinion projected through the mechanism ofGnyaana ... therefore, pl. treat it just that way. Respects. Naga Narayana---------------------------- MEW POSTING Vasudevah Sarvam - The Essence of ALL The essence of everything is THAT, The Absolute. The Matter IS THAT, but some matter trapped in a perceived body isNOT. The Energy IS THAT, but some energy trapped in a packet of matter is NOT.The Action IS THAT, but an action trapped in a packet of matter andenergy is NOT.The Thought IS THAT, but a thought trapped in an action is NOT.The Experience IS THAT, but an experience trapped in a thought isNOT.The Happiness IS THAT, but a happiness trapped in an experience isNOT. The Essence of all the joys ISThe Essence of all the experiences ISThe Essence of all the thoughts ISThe Essence of all the actions ISThe Essence of all the bodies ISThe Essence of all the energy ISThe Essence of all the matter IS... ... ...The essence of anything IS... ... ...The essence of everything ISThe Essence of ALL.The Absolute.The Truth. Vasudevah Sarvam. Respects.Naga Narayana--------------------------Shree HariRam RamNaga Narayanaji, Some further clarity needed on second note. IfEverything is Vasudeva (Gita 7:19), then is there a "is Not" assuch? "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19), "I am Being (sat, real) andNon-being (asat, unreal) both." When there is nothing else besidesVasudeva, then where is the question of IS NOT? is unclear....From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram-------------------------- Sadhakas, Namaste!It is a great privilege to be part of this wisdom platform sharingwith each other and learning along the way by bringing inexperiences in light of scriptural injunctions or pointers fromspiritual teachers! As Vyasji put it, then, we can have moremeaningful deliberations.With deep respects and divine friendship, I would answer thequestions posed by Vyasji as best as I can through the words. Itwill be better to break them in different posts.1. How can we experience undivided Consciousness at the outset?We do experience as such, it is just not noticed that way.Consciousness appears to be divided as many objects, split secondlater, after initial perception. Consciousness cannot be divided,only seems to be so like a movie characters seem to divide ONElight. Attraction for the seen objects distracts us from the non-divisible SEER of all objects!If one notices one doesn't see a particular object initially, onesees as if the view in front of our eyes is totally enveloped in thespace surrounding it, as if in the ocean of space, we see waves offorms, upon initial perceptions by senses as raw sensations. Thisocean of space itself is in the ocean of Consciousness, so to speak,as only a Conscious Being can perceive such space. However, thoughtarises "I see a chair there". Notice, when this is said, the time ofinitial perception is elapsed, so our recognizing a particularobject is in time-space fabric, an integral part of the thought "Isee a chair", chair being from past memory! By the time werecognize, it is already past, as all such thoughts are. We cannever know the separate objects without such thoughts and when weknow they are past. Object-thoughts are like waves in the Ocean ofConsciousness, so all objects including body we call ours arethoughts-Consciousness in our actual experience. The statement "Isee a chair" is not our experience in this sense, but isconceptualization of wholeness of experience for the sake oflanguage. Only seeing which is being conscious of, is experiential,I-thought as individual is identification with body-mind ofConsciousness and Chair-thought is memory. THAT Which isexperiential is always with us, and is Consciousness Itself, whereas experiences of objects as thoughts are fleeting!It is, as though, from Totality of view in front of us, we areextracting each object by offering it space and time to exist in ourthoughts-mind, in what seems to be division into many objects.Please see this fact: our thoughts manifest objects! When we are notconscious of objects, they remain non-manifest as in deep sleep!As this part of our experience is not noticed and deeplycontemplated upon, we see only separate objects and forgetting thatseparate objects are in mind as thoughts in terms of words(namesbeing time dimension and shape being space dimension).Also it is to be noticed that these objects are Consciousness ofthem, totally subjective in nature because objects don't participatein our re-cognition of them. No objects tells us what it is, only wecall them this or that. If we call cat a dog, or dog a cat, nothinghappens to them intrinsically. In otherwords, dog is true onlyrelative to everything else we know that is "not dog-like". Thus allnames are dependent on our agreement to call them as such so we canfunction and discriminate relatively, it is just a pragmatism only.A dog or any name for that matter is not absolute truth of theobject as referred to by that name. In absolute Truth everythinghas to be undivided, and nameless ONE which we call Existence, Is-ness intrinsic to all objects, and is referred to as SELF, Atman inthe context of sentient beings meaning Existence that knows Itself,self-evident Light of Consciousness, Being is "consciousness ofbeing" and consciousness is "being". Sat is Chit and Chit is Sat andis everyone's experience all the time even if not noticed as in deepsleep! And "we" are THAT Absolutely!This is Vedanta proclamation!PS: Consciousness as I used it above is THAT Absolute Existencewhich perceives through each body-mind all objects, while ITSELFremaining non-perceivable ever through senses and mind. However, itis ever present, deep rooted PRESENCE in us of Existence by whichall else is known. IT is the ultimate Knowingness! It is our True I,we, they, all such pronouns, we use for ourselves, but are taken asindividuals.Finally all such words including Consciousness too are concepts, butuseful to point to TRUTH, which can only be pointed to our BEING-NESS!This may answer some questions, more later...Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!More on Vyasji's questions: Pardon me, I have to repeat some points,no choice!We cannot experience the world "out there", means the world we thinkis external to us by thinking our body ends at the surface of outerskin. The world and body appear in our Consciousness as perceptions,so we only experience our perceptions of world, and body."Body" is name given to being conscious of sensations, feelings ofpains, discomforts, sensual pleasures etc, Such body is "my body" isalso due to identification with such feelings and sensations callingit "me", and is thus not experiential.If all these are seen as appearances in Consciousness, and knowinglyidentify with Consciousness as I, the seer of all that is "seen",the discrimination happens. Next the world and body experiencedinwardly is found to be consisting of Consciousness only. Then onecan say "I am not this body, but this body, along with all otherbodies, are in "ME" as Consciousness, All bodies are mine! This iswhat Vasudevah Sarvam to me. This is because anything oneexperiences is at once at a zero distance from Consciouseness!Our connection to the apparent world and body is only through thisConsciousness, Chaitanya! For instance, a thought about a chairoriginates, is sustained and dissolves in us without ever touchingthe outside chair! So chair we experioence is chair-thought only,not the chaor in itself!Everything as a whole is Divine SELF, not an individual body takenexclusively as mine! The body, mind and the World are in ME asKrishna says, but I am not in them if taken as individual objects.Now the real outside world in and of itself cannot be named asseparate objects, because then it is from the mind-names-forms only.This nameless reality is Brahman, The absolute, THAT, Ishwara, orwhatever name we give,is in reality nameless or all names are only HIS names! IF we nameobjects, then, from mind only we can do so, and thus ones isrelative to others. No named object can stand on its own leg asabsolute truth, it needs the legs of others to stand and validateit. Oneness is Reality of experience and the separate objects areconcepts and thus to be discriminated for what its worth based onpragmatism!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt-------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Meditation continues in the form of answers to Vyasji's questionswith deep appreciation!Hopefully last two posts with this one cover most of the remainingones from no 3 onward!When I refer to we or I or any pronouns it means Consciousness orAtman that we are, the only Reality. However, we need to refer to usindividually for communication purpose and many practical reasons.In this spirit it is Consciousness as Sadhakas are questioning andanswering!Anything we know is Consciousness knowing Itself only becauseultimate Knower is THAT as us, and what is known are appearances assuch made up of thoughts as mind and feelings as bodily sensations,all perceived objects!Consciousness-Atman is the experience of Conscious Existence,indwelling Presence, Isness, and is self evident, no other knowerneeded to know this Presence or ISNess.It is not a state, or attribute. It is what it IS! As said before,It perceives only Itself as undivided(God sees everything God only,to God there is not everything else). This is said to emphasize theself-effulgence, self-luminous aspect, not attribute. ThisPerception is the whole and not time-space bound so it is notcreated, nor destroyed. However, when we separate It as objects byconceiving through thoughts in time-space fabric, specific objectthus conceived can end in time, but its Beingness cannot bedestroyed as it belongs to Totality from which it emerged and intowhich it dissolves!When I use "We perceive", I mean we as Consciousness perceives andendows mind to conceive objects so that Leela can go on! We manifesteverything out of ONE thing by conceiving through mind this Totalityjust as spider weaves web out of itself and then winds it in itself!This is our freedom to be Individual too!Can another object perceive? no, object itself is perceived. OnlyConsciousness being chaitanya perceives.By Perception, I mean raw sensations-data that sense-complex in thepresence of Atman seems to produce as Consciousness of ????.Conception is what I call perceptions resolved as objects with mind-intellect and when such mind assumes itself as knower, it isEGO/Jeeva, considering it as separate reality of beig subject apartfrom Real KNOWER!Nature of objects perceived/conceived are thus experienced by usonly as Consciousness, but we equate such objects with outsideobjects for which we have no direct knowledge. We only experienceour perceptions of the world which are subjective only, never theworld itself! In otherwords, world cannot be perceived independentof Consciousness in our experience!The way I use "experience" is that it is discrete, has beginningwith objects perceived as thoughts/feelings and end only to replacewith another such objects. "Experiential" to me, is that which iscontinuous, never begins or ends, is subjective in nature but freeof attributes of pairs of opposites, shines attributes-gunas ofobjects, always present as background or substratum of allappearances. It is Consciousness that IS or Brahman!Perceived and Perceiving Consciousness-Atman are same in the sensethat waves are perceived while ocean is perceiving Itself. For thepurpose of Leela, play, or Maya principle Consciousness forgets andconsiders appearances as Real until It chooses to end the game insome apparent birth and returns Home apparently as It never leftHome! Maya is not a problem, to consider it as Real is the problem!I think these answers questions on the path starting with oneself toreach ONE SELF, from SakshiBhav to SarvatmBhav, from "me" to ME,from personal being to Impersonal BEING and finally feel VasudevSarvam!I remain open to further dialogues!Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt-PRIOR POSTINGHari Om Pratapji ! I am sorry inspite of making efforts , I could notunderstand a lot of your Article. Hence I humbly seek elucidation byyou on the first part of your article.. That should make thedeliberations more productive, and fruitful, at least morecomprehensible. I seek your forgiveness for being of dullerintellect. Hope you will bless me with answers : 1 How do you say at the outset that we all areexperiencing "undivided consciousness"? Are we really ? I thought weare experiencing 'individual consciousness' only whichmeans 'divided' and not 'undivided' ! 2 You said : We can never experience "world out there including ourown body" in itself, as absolute truth. Out where? Why can't we experience the body as truth? Is not almostentire humanity experiencing the body as Self? For what Scripturesare struggling, otherwise? How it is relative? Relative to what?Where is the Q of absolute or relative Truth in "experiencing" ? "Initself" means in " which self" ? What is "itself" ? 3 You said: We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which isConsciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). We know what as perception ? Who is knowing? Who is that "we"? Whatis IS-NESS ? Is it a state / attribute or the ONLY thing ? If it isan attribute then there must be an experiencer also ? If there is noexperiencer then of what avail are the statements made by you sofrequently such as "we experience, perceiver, perceived, we" etc ?How can consciousness ( chetana) in itself perceive? Perceive whatwhen there is nothing except that ONLY existing? 4 Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu,Consciousness, as we experience them inthe moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separateobjects. Who is the experiencer( We) ? Is there any or there is "IS NESSONLY" sans experiencer? How objects are same as IS NESS ? "THUS"means what? What have you stated in previous two/three sentences ormore which makes you to conclude that nature of objects is same asthat of "us" ? Too fast a conclusion , Sir ? Please state the basisfor such conclusion ! Can objects also experience or perceive ? Doobjects exist? If yes, then do they have same property as "we" (inyour words) have? If no, where is the Q their being ONE with wholeor having same property as "we" have ? Is "Consciousness" sentientor inert? Or neither of them? Where is the need for discriminationif both are sentient or both are inert ? Where is the need forScriptures- if both YOGA and BHOGA are same? 5 You said: Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? What is your view? Are they same? If yes, how? If no, why not? Ifperceived, perception, and perceiver are same, then how the Q oftheir being same or not arises? Where does it arise?In whom does it arise? If they are not same, how there is ONE only ? 6 So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. "Experientially" - of whose experience, Pratapji ? How you havesaid "essentially"? Is it so ? What makes them ONE experientially?Are we experiencing that? Is their any EXPERIENCER of that state ofIS NESS (existence) or not ? Yes or No !! Pratapji ! Consider me as Devil's Advocate only and respond so thatall may benefit - SATSANGA !! Beauty lies there !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------Dear Sadaks,Contemplate on Sant Jadabharat in Srimat Bagavath talking to kingRaguguna on palanquin,saying "Oh king Raguguna, for me the palanquin, you and me are oneand the same from same earth". Can Sadaks pass their views in crisp.If everything and anything is same, where comes the question of SriKrishna telling Arjuna to wage war with Kauravas. Here Arjuna is oneand the other is Kauravas. But essence of everything and anything iscorrect. HOW?Jai Sri KrishanaB.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!I really appreciate Mike and Shashikalaji for their feedback andresponse. It helps my own understanding really as it works as abooster shot! I relate to what Mike said while reading Ch 11 andappreciate it too in the same spirit.Let me answer the question raised by Shashikalaji! First of all myrespects to her as she was the instrumental in making me share thispost!In the beginning, we are told by Scriptures or Realized souls likeSwamiji, you are not body-mind-sense complex, you are sentient andthe world being inert. So disidentify with such objects as they areperishable while you are Imperishable Atman or Consciousness! Whendeeply contemplated, "you"(?) take your stand as Witnessing Presencewithin, relative to everything being witnessed(SakshiBhav). This isessential first step, The crown jewel of Discrimination(vivekchudamani) between what one is, Atman, Conscious Being, andeverything witnessed, and both are apart. That which isperceived/conceived(body-mind-world) is distinct from all PerceivingConsciousness or Awareness. However, this is still relative truthas you are witness only relative to witnessed!Now comes Vasudev Sarvam or SarvatmaBhav! As you may appreciate bylooking openly at our inner experience at the time of perceptions itis NEVER that of separate objects.It is one Wholeness because one sees so many objects and spacecontaining them including one's own body, all at once. This is as ifin a pitch dark room one sees only dense-mass of darkness, onecannot even see one's own body! All of a sudden light is turned onand one sees separate objects as if they are materialized fromoneness of darkness surrounding them. Similarly we separate andconceive objects when we think "this is chair, this is table, thisis another person, this is me etc. These very thoughts of ours havetime and space embaded in them(Actually Consciousness creates time-space through us) so they help conceive separate objects we arefamiliar with outside. Nevertheless, they are experienced assubjective thoughts of those objects which we think are outsideindependently, not true. Such thoughts are Consciousness shaped upas those objects in all our exoeriences, just as water is shaped aswaves in the ocean.In other words, an object has to be one with Consciousness in orderfor it to be experienced by us, Conscious Being! So all we reallyexperience is Consciousness itself as body-mind and world. There isnothing else in our experience other than Consciousness, Reality,ISNESS! This very Consciousness is Absolute Existence, oneHomogeneous mass, so to speak, experientially! IT is what weeseentially are, and It is not personal, is shared by each body-mind! As a matter of fact there is nothing personal in the entirecosmos! We are like a window for Absolute to see through us andenjoy ITSELF as World(leela)!This is Vasudev Sarvam! All there is is this Consciousness, Brahman!So when we say objects don't have existence, it means separateobjects don't exist as they appear to be independent of ourexistence, however, Absolute Existence or BEINGNESS never ceases tobe disguised as diversity, the meaning of BG Ch 2:16.No one has ever experienced world in itself, it has been alwaysthrough being Conscious and as Consciousness. In and of itselfeverything is ONE UNDIVIDED BEINGNESS which Consciousness!Thus we deal with relative objects based on how they appear in ourmiinds, likes and dislikes due to conditioned by such objects takenreal!However, with this understanding Relative world of objects arediscriminated properly as you have suggested, and the biggest helpis that we don't get attached to them and fall apart.Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari- Dear Pratap Bhatt, I read your article several times, and it made me think deeply, thatis really good. It reminded me of things I meditated on, discussedand even experienced and so on. My mind went to Bhagavad Gita Ch.11 the revelation of Lord Krishna'sSupreme form (Ishwara).Before I continue I would like to share something. I read the wholeof the chapter, I was in a very focused state of mind, as I read theHoly Gita, something happened, yes I was reading it in English, butthe language of it faded away, I felt as if I were right there in astrange way, I felt I was a privileged observer, the richness of thewhole thing was fixed in my mind, hmmm, thats the best way mystumbling words can put it.(Most inadequately). Getting back to Gitaji Ch 11, Arjuna saw Shri Krishna, who heconsidered to be a great friend, in an overpowering form, I presumeonly Arjuna witnessed this, or more correctly was given the gift toperceive Ishwara, his senses were confounded he was terrified, andthen of course the vision left him. A friend of mine who was a walking encyclopedia, said that 90% of allwe perceive is filtered out, otherwise we could not function.(I thinkI read that somewhere myself).My proviso is the focused mind can transcend these limitations, andthe most powerful focus one can have is the 'The Divine Beloved'. B.G. 1153. Neither by the Vedas, nor by austerity, nor by gift, nor bysacrifice, can I be seen in this form as you have seen me (soeasily). 54. But by single-minded devotion can I, of this form, be known andseen in reality and also entered into, Arjuna! With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor)--------------------------- Dear Sadaks,A ray of light has 9 colors. But we see it as white. A minute dot ofwater try on your computer screen, it will reflect nine colours. Thelight is one but has 9 colours within.Jai Sri KriahnaB.Sathyanarayan------------------------------Jai Hanuman Mr Bhatt ! You said :In summary objects experienced are one withConsciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Realityof "myself" and objectsare one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discriminationin dealing with them! Can you elaborate as to how considering reality of "What exists"(Self) and "what does not exist at all" (objects) - by consideringthem (existent and non existent) to be ONE in the beginningitself, "naturally guide me to discrimination/wisdom in dealing withthem" ? Say, If I consider myself and body tobe ONE in essence , how will I then discriminate? How the reality ofyourself and objects is the same/one ? Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita,relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant tomotivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group'sprimary aim of deeper understanding of Gita. FOR RESPONDER1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka'stime.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Shree HariRam Ram "Vasudeva SarvamEverything is Paramatma (God)" is the ultimate ofall knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this tobe "Vigyaan" and balance all to be "Gyaan" ! To understand /realize the depth of this topic, sadhaks will have to be crisp,precise in stating scriptures. This is not a topic of only wordsand debate. Therefore please kindly pose specific questions andspecific responses - crisply, concisely and precisely based onscriptures only.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! There have been many postings on the subject "Duties of householder...", so I chose this, sort of a new topic. It is to build onShashikalaji's comments on essence of "everything and anything" anduse of viveka. The essence of all things, in our experience is just ONE, UndividedConsciousness! We can never experience "world out there including ourown body" in itself, as absolute truth. We just know it asperceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS-NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). Thus perceived objects are madeup of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them inthe moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separateobjects. Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. We cancall it Vasudev, God, Atman, Paramatman, Reality, Consciousness orwhatever name. This is called Absolute Truth of all our experiences,the true I! In jainism, they have term "NischayNaya", I think.Soon after the perceptions, mind with memory, intellect, etc resolvesthe Wholeness into objects that we are familiar in practical life. Sofirst perceptions, and then conceptions of objects with names happenin our experience! Names and forms are thus relative truth. It ishere that we need to be guided by discrimination to have a properperspective for each such object, so we can all function in the worldof relativity. This is VyavaharNaya in Jainism, I think. When we deeply understand the Essence of all things, being ONEReality, Paramtman, without a second Reality of thusperceived/conceived objeccts, we can function without attachments andthereby without suffering. In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even aswaves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of "myself" and objectsare one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discriminationin dealing with them! Vedanta even goes on to say "knower of Brahman becomes Brahman",Brahman being the Reality, the Essence of all! Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt ---------------------------NEW POSTING Vasudeva Sarvam It is YOU, Govinda, who weave The seven sounds Into the soundless Sound. You Who swing the seven colours Into the Light of lights. Light That pulsates In The soundless Sound. To create and sustain An Existence so vast That Time and Space Find themselves impotent To suppress or express! And I Pure Intelligence Consciousness, Energy Changeless Unmoving, Do yet Create Sustain and Destroy The Three Worlds Once Every twenty- four hours! And choose to play the Game Of the Seeker and the Sought Of the Dancer dancing Even when the Dance Cries out To be ONE with the Dancer In Repose. HE ALONE PREVAILS He prevails! he prevails! he alone Who , yesterday , did prevail Tomorrow, too will prevail He alone For whom all yesterdays are the Light of His eyes And tomorrows, the Laughter of His being He, who Himself is All yesterdays All tomorrows¦ And that which lies between¦. Ah ! The tyranny of the Mind That chooses to play in time In yesterdays, today and morrows… While Eternity of This Moment Now laughs and laughs No yesterday ever was, Beloved, nor morrows ever exist And Today ? Ah ! Guess again ! If yesterday is the mist of memory Tomorrow, the cloud of imagination Today ? Does today Exist…. Is there any Today at all ! Reject Time Shun yesterdays and morrows And be ever Free of Today and Time¦ And beyond Time, beyond yesterdays, today and morrows Blissfully enjoy the dream The Dream that is the Gift of Time Memory and imagination Which is This Moment Now . AUM narinder bhandari ------------------------- Divine All. Pranams. Very beautiful message by Swamiji. There is no doubt about us being light and not the lighted one. Few weeks back, this thought/click/dawning happened that between Pramatma and us in our gross form (includs body, mind, intelluct and memory), we remain as light, vibration and sound, i.e., we are nothing but grossification of light, vibration and sound (hindi: ham jyoti, spandan aur dhwani ka hi ghat swaroop hain). Any one would like to share their thoughts? I agree Vyasji, Yoga Vashsitha is a jem of all jems!!! If one really understands it, one will know that nothing actually exist!!! humble regards, always at Thy Mayaavi FeetManjula Patel --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Here is the Ultimate Subject, The LIGHT of all lights. Pujya Swamiji's most profound message yet!This Light is what we ARE, not what is lighted, the body-mind-world! See it is not theoretical at all, is our experience as these words are written and read! Please, please!Swamiji says once this discrimination between Vasudeva, the Light, the imperishable, and Sarvam, the lighted, the perishables takes place, Realization of Vasudeva Servam also takes place! What it means that lighted objects considered as separate objects are perishables due to their existence in time-space causality, but when Lighted are see as One totality(which is our innermost experience), they are ONE Light, Non-dual! Our problem is we give thus lighted and illumined objects reality and get attached or resist them, while the Illuminator, the Only Reality, ISNESS gets IGNORED!Then he says: "There is nothing to be done. There is no description of this experience. It simply IS. Absolute stillness." Note here as he says, no description, only EXPERIENCE! In the vedantic text called Panchdashi, the entire chapter 10 "Natak Deepah" or "Lamp of the theater stage" is devoted to illustrate this point!This post is an expression of my appreciation, gratitude and Pranaam to Swamiji! I hope Sadhakas will be helped tremendously upon serious contemplation!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt----------------- Hari OmAgreed Jee ! But theory has its own beauty, particularly when it emanates straight from Holy Scriptures. Oh ! What a bliss Yoga Vaashishtha brings to the Sadhak. The objects seen in dream were only creations of mind, where seen, seeing and seer- all was mind only.That is considered as the mind which is the form of the Infinite Principle (tattwa) of the Self, the all-powerful Supreme Spirit, created by its power of thought or will (sankalpa) ! The Supreme Consciousness, excited by the powers of movement in the form of space and time and pusuing imagination, attains to the position of grasping things. This vibration or movement is of the nature of imagination of objects. This Supreme Consciousness flows forth by itself, imagining objects which have gone beyond its nature. Itself having faded all around , it is enfeebled. That is considered as MIND.The Consciousness which is associated with objects imagined is declared as comprehension or grasping of ideas. That state of Consciousness which is intent on objects is considered as the sprout of imagination. Consciousness, thinking of objects perceived as if they are distinct from itself, attains to the state of imagination, like a seed attaining to the state of a sprout !!Vasudeva and the world are one and real. The One is existing as the Many and the whole appears not to be so. The Pure is spread as Impure. That which is not void (Paramatma) appears as void (world) and the void is manifested as non void. That which is large is like a thing which is not large and the one which is not expanded qppears like one expanded. That which is immutable appears LIKE ONE LIABLE TO CHANGE. The one which is equal and calm appears like one disturbed. The real one is INVISIBLE like a non existent thing. Only THAT has risen like one which is not THAT !! The undivided one appears like divided. THE ONE WHICH IS NOT INACTIVE HAS BECOME LIKE ONE WHICH IS INERT. Though unknowable, it appears as one having the nature of the known. Without parts, it is shining like one with parts. He who is not "I" appears like I. One without destruction appears as one which is perishable.Though free from Maya (illusion), it is like the stainless sun with a circular orb of illusory rays. Know that Brahman as the Lord of the Wise, as you know the great ocean as the lord of the waters !!Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ---- Dear sadaks,Question: How to not see the world (inert, temporary), and instead see ONLY God ? (Sansaar ne dikhkar, kewal Paramatma Kaise dikhey?)May this be a little bit of message for clarity.Sukh Brama was walking away from his father Veda Vyas. His father was following his son. In a pond there were woman bathing clotheslines. As Sukh was walking along they never even bothered. But when his father Ved Vyas walking the woman raped themselves in clothes. Ved Vyas aasked these woman, "Why are you woman clothing looking at me? My son is teen ager and you woman neglect him. " Woman answered, ' Saint Vyasji it is your first cause that because you are asking this question, that is you see us and yourself as 2 objects. While Sukhji see the trees around, birds of air, prakurthi and us with NO differance. Sukhji see Sarvam Para Bramam. One and the only one. ''Sadaks, seeing, hearing, talking etc should not be attached in mind level as objects of pleasures. Eyes can see but mind should be tuned to Neti (Negate) the objects on earth, such that mind should cast eagerness to see Guru, Parents, Bagavan. Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Shri Hari Very interesting idea "Light of all Lights" message from world to divinity Ram Ram Pawan Singhal ---- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Some posts of Sadhakas seemed theoretical to Shashikalaji! However, these posts echo Advaita Vedanta, a rare Gem of Seers of Truth! With all the respects, to some of us, this is the most practical as it addresses the ignorance at its core. There are many approaches to Truth, some simple and some not-so-simple depending upon sadhakas.Why not we share what we understand by putting them on this platform and let all take a look and decide for themselves with open mind. Many aspects of Gita and Swamiji's teachings are preparatory in nature to make us eligible to receive the Ultimate Subject, our true nature! For example, advice such as "don't get attached to world, give up doership/enjoyership, Don't think bad of anyone" etc find extraordinary meanings and get implemented naturally when one understands one is not an individual one thinks one is. All attachments are inherent in the individual, not in the world objects, as any separate entity finds the need to defend its interests at any cost even if its unfair to other such individuals. Strange as it may sound, we don't have any proof we are such autonomous individuals! "I am this body and so and so..." is just a false belief taken real, and we kill each other if we have to for this belief! Also the doer we assume ourselves to be is really the "skill, know-how, knowledge etc" stored as intellect that we identify with all our life without questioning, taking as I, the doer. See this intellect is also given to us! It is losing sight of this truth and keep trying to be free of doership. Seeing the truth of this liberates from doership while doing karmas! Otherwise we keep fighting to get rid of perceived doer with believed doer!Neti, Neti approach is not just talk, nor complex! We make it complex by not giving it a try!In this approach, we are asked to see that anything and everything known by mind is defined in space-time imposing attributes, etc thus making them limited, and therefore, it cannot be Iti, Iti or Vasudeva being Unlimited!Upon deep understanding, mind gives up all attempts to hold THAT, naturally, and thus in the emptiness of such mind Vsudeva invites Himself in and takes the reins of that carriage becoming its charioteer!The point is that if our mind is simple enough like that of famous Bhaktas, like Meera, Devotion path may sound simple, and if we are given to inquiry, let it be so! Ultimately its the mind that needs to be Silent on its own as it cannot be made silent by dismissing it when it wants to know answers! Samadhan - "Understanding with satisfaction" plays a major role in silence of the mind than even Samadhi, if mind is asking and asking!Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari OmThat which is constant at the beginning and the end is called Real. What is Real at the beginning and end, is only real when existing at present. What doesn't exist at the beginning and the end, is so at the present also. Of what nature could the reality be, of a thing that does not exist at the beginning and the end? There is no destruction at any time of that which exists.The delusion of the world is of the mind. It is neither Real nor Unreal ! It is not born; and it has risen like a conjuring trick, (causing illusory perceptions) of a number of minds. The same illusion may be seen by a number of persons due to illusion. Therefore, this objective world is not real at any time; nor is it unreal. It is neither real nor unreal as the delusion of a snake in a rope. It has risen like the illusion of dreams and shines like a false idea.The wealth of magic constituting the world is very much exhibited or spread here by mind, as a moving wave, though unreal, is exhibited by a river caused by heat (mirage), as if it were real. Unreal on account of its instability and real on account of its appearance or perception, the world WHICH IS A PROJECTION OF THOUGHT, is of the nature of both reality and unreality as a dream is.As pearl necklaces, feathers of peacock's tail, balls of hair and the like seen in the sky are unreal, but have become reality for those WITH A DEFECTIVE VISION, so, the world appears to those with defective vision. This is only unreality resembling reality and is an appearance. It is uncreated, yet experienced ! It is not Real but EXISTS as reality.Next: Firm Belief of Mind (Sankalpa)Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Beautiful are Expressions of Truth, Itself remaining INEXPRESSIBLE!Many are its Manifestations, Itself remaining ONE Unmanifest!The Essence of Everything and Anything and Nothing!It is heartening to read posts by Vyasji, Nagaji, Narinderji, Moderatorji, Mike, Sathyanarayanji, all sharing the same Wisdom in their own ways! I shared the same understanding hoping it answered Vyasji's tough questions, though not as eloquently!It is a real joy to get booster shots! I thank you all sadhakas! Consciousness, THAT, SELF, THE ABSOLUTE, BELOVED KRISHNA of BG ALL ONE REALITY, DIVINITY! Vasudeva in guise of everything and anything!As Vyasji put it, This is the ultimate subject!To that I would add: And That ultimate Subject is "I". That Sat-Chit-Anand appears(feels/thinks) as "I", the body-mind, I call "me/mine", you call "you/yours", we call "us/ours"! What a trick the magician is playing!Let us unfold it, right now, not later!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt -------------------------Jai HanumanI don't believe in 'theoritical' types of talks. Swamiji also insisted upon simple down to earth conduct. Vyasji appears to be in theoritical mode suddenly. Ok ! He has right to do so ! May be that is necessary too ! But to my mind, practical is more important. Hence here is practical talk on the subject.There are 2 things. Read last Sadhak Message of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj . One- BG 2:16 ! Two- BG 7:19 ! How to 'realise' - Vasudeva Sarvam- BG 7:19 ? Every thing is 'thou and thou' only ! How ? How??Don't understand any one to be bad ! Don't do bad to any one !! Don't wish bad for any one !!! If you see any one indulging in evil thoughts/ deeds/ desires- think : God is playing as per Time - Kaliyuga !! Conduct yourself carefully- as per order of God- BG 2:47 ! But from inside your heart never consider any one to be bad !Enough Jee ! Enough !! Why to be so complex? Be that, if that helps complexity loving Sadhaks ! Why this 'NETI ..NETI' lecture? There is ONLY one existing. 'NETI NETI' is BG 2:16 ! Sure ! But is BG 7:19 clear? NETI NETI ! Why such big talk? Baba ! Simple ! Do objects seen in dream exist in reality ? No ! So long as dream was there, they 'appeared' real ! Where are they now? Who made/ created them? MIND Jee, Mind ! Throw mind into the dust bin ! Where is the world now ? Where are objects ? What NETI NETI ? Why ? Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala - PRIOR POSTING Hari Om On the subject of Vasudeva Sarvam (7:19) or Nasato Vidyate Bhavah (2:16)- main Qis how objects / world do not exist at all? Do we not directly experience theworld ? How to negate that? The fact is that this world is the expansion of Brahman. The triple world iswithin consciousness. Brahman alone appears as the world. The universe createdby Brahma is mental. Brahma has a body consisting only of thought. Hence Brahmais known in the Scriptures as Cosmic Mind. The imagination of objects is of thenature of mere appearance or illusion of Absolute Consciousness. That indeed is described by the word Jeeva ( embodied/individual soul) which isthe natural throb of the pure sky of Consciousness. As there is movement of wind, the hotness of fire or the coldness of ice, so there is Jeevahood of the Self. That Self Principle ( or the Absolute Consciousness) , which is not limited byspace, time etc takes a body held in space and time, through its own power andONLY OUT OF SPORT ! ( Ekaki na ramate ). The Self is spontaneously perceived ,as if it were another, only by itself. When Self produces the energy calledthinking ( or imagination) like wind its power of motion, then, the universalSelf becomes the mind consisting of grasping of thoughts, appearing as it weredifferently, manifesting its form of its own accord. THUS , THE ABSOLUTE CONSCIOUSNESS, IMAGINING ITSELF AS DIFFERENT BY NATURE, GOESAS IT WERE TO THE STATE OF OTHERNESS BY ITSELF , IN THE FORM OF ITS OWN ERROR (i e , such imagination). As the same man indeed becomes another in a moment on account of anger , so, theone of the nature of Pure Consciousness , has gone to the state of otherness,having the stain of error/imagination. For him who considers this collection of rays of solar light as different fromthe Sun, this is indeed different, as it were, from the Sun !!! (Other examples-Gold/Bracelet; Water/Wave; Fire/flame; ) To be contd. In the meantime let there be deliberations/focussed and brief onthe subject / material shared so far. Even Moderators have requested ALL Sadhaksto whole heartedly participate. I will answer each and every question on thesubject. Start asking Qs (on shared material) as I continue taking thedeliberations forward. This is ULTIMATE subject ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B-------------------------------There is nothing else besides Vasudeva, is this sentiment that Bhagwaan hasexpressed mainly for a bhakta (loving devotee)? If you want me to answer this question … "The Truth is everything" is the fact -no matter whether it is told or not, whether it is told to somebody or everybodyor nobody, whether anybody receives it or not, whether anybody accepts it ordisputes it … the very statement covers everything with absolutely noexceptions. But, one who receives the message earnestly is invariably a Bhaktain essence. Isn't so? THAT does not address anybody in particular ... yet,anybody, no matter what, is elligible and capable of approaching THAT! NETI means "anything is not THAT" ... it does not mean "THAT is not anything".THAT is anything and everything. But, nothing can be THAT in isolation as TheTruth cannot be multiple. This results in Mano Naasha (annihilation ofsubjective identity) - that is what I tried to mean in the beginning of myoriginal utterances. But, an individual cannot fathom what THAT means thanks to its self-rooted,self-promoted and self-protected confinement camps called identities. The fellowhelplessly insists the images collected as its identities as "the only reality".It does not mean that The Truth could be excluded even in such ignorance - THATincludes everything without saying. But, the ignorant cannot fathom thewonderful experience of the Universal Presence as it cannot break open itscocoons of ignorance in terms of its beleifs and doubts, desires and fears, andlikes and dislikes. The only way to entice the ignorant to break open itscocoons is to suggest the opposite (NETI) of its beliefs rather strongly. Whenthe deeprooted beliefs are negated strongly, there is a positive chance that onewould look into one's self-proclaimed identities to come out with ajustification. As every image that the ignorant brings out in support, "TheNETI" stands against smashing the images one after the other burning down theignorance hoarded in terms of the images within. When all the images areannihilated, one can experience The Absolute. Unless the individual can fathombeyond the cocoons of beliefs, "Vasudevah Sarvam", The Absolute remains a notionin one's mind. NETI helps breaking all the beliefs helping us attain The Truth. When "NETI" hints upon The Truth, then, "NETI" means "NOT JUST THIS" and not"NOT THIS" … as we apply such an appreciation in our lives, Vasudeva blooms toITS infinitude breaking all the barriers we have gathered. This results in AatmaBodha (Universal Awareness). That is what I tried to mean later in my originalutterances. Anything IS THAT, but anything trapped in a perceived domain is NOT - meaning,"do not limit your appreciation to anything as such … let it flow freelyencompassing the whole universe and beyond … do not confine yourself to anyfigment even if it is the whole universe itself … then, there is an opportunityto witness The Vasudeva, The Lord of All. In fact, "Vasudevah Sarvam" itself is a discriminative notion that is requiredtill the contradictions of real and unreal loom around in one's existence. Once,all the unreal is mitigated, real does not make sense either. Just like "You areeating" is a meaningless statement to the one who is already eating, "VasudevahSarvam" is a meaningless statement to a Prahlada who is already THAT. As Swamijisays, such a natural presence wherein both real and unreal loose their dominionsis "Vasudevah Sarvam" (REFER below). Om Tat Sat! Respects.Naga Narayana. Excerpts from "Sahaja Nivritti" from Sadhan Sudha Sindhu: Asat ko satta denese hee nivritt (sahaja-nivritt) aur praapt (swatah-praapt) -ye do vibhag kahe jaate hai. Asatko satta na de to na nivritt hai, na praapthai, pratyut sattamaatr jyon-ki-tyon hai. Dusare shabdon me, jabtak asatki sattahai, tabtak vivek hai. Asatki satta mitneper vivek hee tattvagnyaanme parinat hojaata hai; kyonki jab asatki satta hai hee nahi, to phir sat hee shesh rahega.Iseeko Geetane "Vasudevah Sarvam" kahaa hai. The distinction between the real (the ever-attained) and the unreal (theever-departing) remains only because one provides importance to the unreal. Oncethe unreal becomes insignificant in one's perception, there is neitherattainable nor unattainable, but mere presence as such. In other words, thediscrimination is present (and required) only till there are traces of theunreal. Once the unreal is annihilated at its core, the same discriminationmatures into realization because, when there is no unreal at all, everything isnothing but the mere presence of all, The Truth, The Sat. This is referred to as"Vasudevah Sarvam" in the Bhagavadgita. PS: Original Hindi version is given, in case, there is any misgivings in itsenglish version. Respects. Naga. --------------------------------Dear Sadaks,Everything is that a worldly man desires. No matter how much wealth, fame, onemay have but a little more. A millionaire, then a multimillionaire, 1st richestman on earth Etc.Anything is for realized one. Anything on earth is Vasudev Swaroop-Poornathuvam, nothing beyond and permanent. So the Gyani cannot have 2 differentthings, he sees Vasudeva Sarvam.Ordinary man sees another person Mr/Mrs X by looks, by his dress, by his wealthEtc. But Gyani sees the same Mr.X inside that illumines is Paramathuma. All theexternal features of Mr.X is unseen.Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan------------------------------- THE NATURE AND EXPERIENCE OF ISNESS ( The essence ) One day, of Krishna , Govinda, Satguru, I asked,O KrishnaGovinda, my Love,Satguru, my Being, pray let me know,What is Realisation?Realisation, answered Krishna , is the IS-NESS of all that ISAnd Beloved, implored within me, What is my IS-NESS ?I cannot say, I cannot tell,Govinda smiled, But IS-NESS happened, it just happened !The Gift of my SatguruAndTime was no more,Nor Space,Nor speech, nor silence,Only ISNESS.In the Eternity of the MomentThe giving of the GiftThe receiving of the GiftNo Giver, No Reciever,Only ISNESS. In the Eternity of the MomentSilence that IS.In the Eternity of the MomentThe Soundless Sound.In the Eternity of the MomentThe One Word.In the Eternity of the MomentThe expansion of the Word, The Vedas.In the Eternity of the MomentAll movement, the World, the Universe.In the Eternity of the MomentTotal stillness, Void,Full-ness absolute.In the Eternity of the MomentOnly IS-NESS.Only IS-NESS, just Is-ness!Only the Giving, only the ReceivingSans Giver, Sans ReceiverOnly IS-NESS.Only IS-NESSOnly gratitudeOnly Loving, choiceless lovingOnly One-ness, Not- two-ness foreverOf the seeker and his Guru, ONlY IS-NESS. AUMnarinder bhandari---------------------------PRIOR POSTING Q: When there is nothing else besides Vasudeva, then where is thequestion of IS NOT? is unclear.... I agree ... there is no room for "IS NOT" ever. THAT IS CORRECT. TheAsat by its very nature is "unreal" and hence "non-existent" on itsown. How can a non-existent be anything at all?! That is nothing butnothing!! The "IS NOT" is just a figment of our imagination when we try tocontain everything that we perceive within the boundaries of ourcognition. The very presence of "IS NOT" just reminds us that we areNOT in The Vignyaana but trapped within our cognitive dependence.Till cognitive dependence rules, whatever perceived DOES NOT LOOK LIKE "SAT",THE REAL to a true seeker - because, the cognition keepschanging the perceived perpetually. It is in this context, all thewise saints say "NETI" ... "IS NOT" is a necessity for seeking Truthtill Asat leaves no traces in our presence. That is the onlyfool-proof way of realizing our ignorance in believing the limitedcognitive perception itself as "the reality". Once the Asat ismitigated encore, ONLY SAT stays, ONLY VIGNYAANA remains, ONLY TRUTHprevails. Applying the essence of appreciation backwards in our dailylife, one would then say that "the so-called Asat" is also THATalone.That means, "The Asat" is non-existent whether we acknowledge or not.Such an understanding can come only after attaining the Tattva. To start with ... under dominion of the discrimination anythingperceived cannot be THE COMPLETE as the preception leaves outinfinitude beyond itself. But once The Absolute is attained, THATalone is prevalent in everything. The very notion of the Asat ismitigated encore and hence one need not verify anything as Satanymore. My most favorite example for this is from Swamiji("Bhagavattattva" in Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga): For a mundane person, the Asat is as crisp and clear as a solid linedrawn on a solid rock (NETI is extremely necessary here).For a truthful seeker of truth, in the beginning, it becomes like aline drawn on sand (Still NETI remains important for progress).For a truth seeker in whom the wisdom has bloomed, its is like a linedrawn on water (NETI fades away as the SAT prevails).For a Tattvagnya who is permanently established in The Vignyaana thatSwamiji refers to, the Asat, the unreal is truly as unreal andillusive as a line drawn in space ... IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST! Thenwhere is the question of IS NOT when we contemplate on "VaasudevahSarvam"? You are right ... then ... "IS NOT" is absolutelyirrelevant; IS alone is relevant as well as prevalent. As you correctly pointed out in your note, most of us (at least I amclear about myself) are NOT EVEN FIT to talk about THAT as I amnowhere near THAT ... ONLY REALIZED ONES such as Swamiji can talk onsuch matter. However, if I have to contemplate on such an idea, I AMBOUND TO BE TRUTHFUL TO THE IDEA RECEIVED IN AS MUCH CLARITY ANDTRANSPARENCY AS POSSIBLE - THAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY. As Swamiji sayswhile teaching us how to apply discrimination ("Vibhaga Yoga", inSadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga), we should adapt the truthfulappreciation that we perceive in the realized ones truthfully ... atleast while contemplating on THAT if not all the time! That is my limited understanding on this. If you want more, I amafraid, the only way is to invoke The Swamiji and such realized onesin our contemplation ... it is a wonderful journey of perpetualremoval of the debris (the unreal) hoarded within ... That is all Ican share on this ... Thank You. Respects. Naga Narayana--------------------------Shree HariRam Ram Nagaji, you say - wise saints say "NETI" ... "IS NOT" is a necessity for seekingTruth. Does that mean "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19), "I am Being (sat,real) and Non-being (asat, unreal) both." There is nothing else besidesVasudeva, is this sentiment that Bhagwaan has expressed mainly for a bhakta(loving devotee)? Sarvottamji,Swamiji has spoken to you about Vasudeva Sarvam, can you provide your insightson what is meant by "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19). All sadhaks welcome toshare on Gita 9:19. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------------------------- Thank you, Naga Narayana jee............ ISNESS narinder bhandari---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING "Vasudeva SarvamEverything is Paramatma (God)" is the ultimate ofall knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this tobe "Vigyaan" and balance all to be "Gyaan" ! What a wonderful statement! We most often jump aroundconsidering "Gnyaana" itself as "Vignyaana"!! Brihadaaranyaka(4.2.12) makes an acute observation on this. Yagnyavalkya concludesthat, "No gnyaana can ever be present in Moksha". Everything is THATVIGNYAANA alone. He calls IT "Vignyaanaghana" - purest essence ofall intelligence. We often get carried away by our informativerelational rationale to address the same. Vasudeva includes everything ... there is no room outside Him. Pl.refer to Vishwarupa Darshana Yoga. HE includes Duryodhana and thegang as much as the Yudhishthira and the gang. HE includes the mostpowerful of all as much as the weakest of all. HE includes therichest as much as the poorest. No parameter in any dimension canever outrange HIM! The discrimination and rationale can rule onlythe domain of Gnyaana ... not The Vignyaana. Again, it is an opinion projected through the mechanism ofGnyaana ... therefore, pl. treat it just that way. Respects. Naga Narayana---------------------------- MEW POSTING Vasudevah Sarvam - The Essence of ALL The essence of everything is THAT, The Absolute. The Matter IS THAT, but some matter trapped in a perceived body isNOT. The Energy IS THAT, but some energy trapped in a packet of matter is NOT.The Action IS THAT, but an action trapped in a packet of matter andenergy is NOT.The Thought IS THAT, but a thought trapped in an action is NOT.The Experience IS THAT, but an experience trapped in a thought isNOT.The Happiness IS THAT, but a happiness trapped in an experience isNOT. The Essence of all the joys ISThe Essence of all the experiences ISThe Essence of all the thoughts ISThe Essence of all the actions ISThe Essence of all the bodies ISThe Essence of all the energy ISThe Essence of all the matter IS... ... ...The essence of anything IS... ... ...The essence of everything ISThe Essence of ALL.The Absolute.The Truth. Vasudevah Sarvam. Respects.Naga Narayana--------------------------Shree HariRam RamNaga Narayanaji, Some further clarity needed on second note. IfEverything is Vasudeva (Gita 7:19), then is there a "is Not" assuch? "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19), "I am Being (sat, real) andNon-being (asat, unreal) both." When there is nothing else besidesVasudeva, then where is the question of IS NOT? is unclear....From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram-------------------------- Sadhakas, Namaste!It is a great privilege to be part of this wisdom platform sharingwith each other and learning along the way by bringing inexperiences in light of scriptural injunctions or pointers fromspiritual teachers! As Vyasji put it, then, we can have moremeaningful deliberations.With deep respects and divine friendship, I would answer thequestions posed by Vyasji as best as I can through the words. Itwill be better to break them in different posts.1. How can we experience undivided Consciousness at the outset?We do experience as such, it is just not noticed that way.Consciousness appears to be divided as many objects, split secondlater, after initial perception. Consciousness cannot be divided,only seems to be so like a movie characters seem to divide ONElight. Attraction for the seen objects distracts us from the non-divisible SEER of all objects!If one notices one doesn't see a particular object initially, onesees as if the view in front of our eyes is totally enveloped in thespace surrounding it, as if in the ocean of space, we see waves offorms, upon initial perceptions by senses as raw sensations. Thisocean of space itself is in the ocean of Consciousness, so to speak,as only a Conscious Being can perceive such space. However, thoughtarises "I see a chair there". Notice, when this is said, the time ofinitial perception is elapsed, so our recognizing a particularobject is in time-space fabric, an integral part of the thought "Isee a chair", chair being from past memory! By the time werecognize, it is already past, as all such thoughts are. We cannever know the separate objects without such thoughts and when weknow they are past. Object-thoughts are like waves in the Ocean ofConsciousness, so all objects including body we call ours arethoughts-Consciousness in our actual experience. The statement "Isee a chair" is not our experience in this sense, but isconceptualization of wholeness of experience for the sake oflanguage. Only seeing which is being conscious of, is experiential,I-thought as individual is identification with body-mind ofConsciousness and Chair-thought is memory. THAT Which isexperiential is always with us, and is Consciousness Itself, whereas experiences of objects as thoughts are fleeting!It is, as though, from Totality of view in front of us, we areextracting each object by offering it space and time to exist in ourthoughts-mind, in what seems to be division into many objects.Please see this fact: our thoughts manifest objects! When we are notconscious of objects, they remain non-manifest as in deep sleep!As this part of our experience is not noticed and deeplycontemplated upon, we see only separate objects and forgetting thatseparate objects are in mind as thoughts in terms of words(namesbeing time dimension and shape being space dimension).Also it is to be noticed that these objects are Consciousness ofthem, totally subjective in nature because objects don't participatein our re-cognition of them. No objects tells us what it is, only wecall them this or that. If we call cat a dog, or dog a cat, nothinghappens to them intrinsically. In otherwords, dog is true onlyrelative to everything else we know that is "not dog-like". Thus allnames are dependent on our agreement to call them as such so we canfunction and discriminate relatively, it is just a pragmatism only.A dog or any name for that matter is not absolute truth of theobject as referred to by that name. In absolute Truth everythinghas to be undivided, and nameless ONE which we call Existence, Is-ness intrinsic to all objects, and is referred to as SELF, Atman inthe context of sentient beings meaning Existence that knows Itself,self-evident Light of Consciousness, Being is "consciousness ofbeing" and consciousness is "being". Sat is Chit and Chit is Sat andis everyone's experience all the time even if not noticed as in deepsleep! And "we" are THAT Absolutely!This is Vedanta proclamation!PS: Consciousness as I used it above is THAT Absolute Existencewhich perceives through each body-mind all objects, while ITSELFremaining non-perceivable ever through senses and mind. However, itis ever present, deep rooted PRESENCE in us of Existence by whichall else is known. IT is the ultimate Knowingness! It is our True I,we, they, all such pronouns, we use for ourselves, but are taken asindividuals.Finally all such words including Consciousness too are concepts, butuseful to point to TRUTH, which can only be pointed to our BEING-NESS!This may answer some questions, more later...Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!More on Vyasji's questions: Pardon me, I have to repeat some points,no choice!We cannot experience the world "out there", means the world we thinkis external to us by thinking our body ends at the surface of outerskin. The world and body appear in our Consciousness as perceptions,so we only experience our perceptions of world, and body."Body" is name given to being conscious of sensations, feelings ofpains, discomforts, sensual pleasures etc, Such body is "my body" isalso due to identification with such feelings and sensations callingit "me", and is thus not experiential.If all these are seen as appearances in Consciousness, and knowinglyidentify with Consciousness as I, the seer of all that is "seen",the discrimination happens. Next the world and body experiencedinwardly is found to be consisting of Consciousness only. Then onecan say "I am not this body, but this body, along with all otherbodies, are in "ME" as Consciousness, All bodies are mine! This iswhat Vasudevah Sarvam to me. This is because anything oneexperiences is at once at a zero distance from Consciouseness!Our connection to the apparent world and body is only through thisConsciousness, Chaitanya! For instance, a thought about a chairoriginates, is sustained and dissolves in us without ever touchingthe outside chair! So chair we experioence is chair-thought only,not the chaor in itself!Everything as a whole is Divine SELF, not an individual body takenexclusively as mine! The body, mind and the World are in ME asKrishna says, but I am not in them if taken as individual objects.Now the real outside world in and of itself cannot be named asseparate objects, because then it is from the mind-names-forms only.This nameless reality is Brahman, The absolute, THAT, Ishwara, orwhatever name we give,is in reality nameless or all names are only HIS names! IF we nameobjects, then, from mind only we can do so, and thus ones isrelative to others. No named object can stand on its own leg asabsolute truth, it needs the legs of others to stand and validateit. Oneness is Reality of experience and the separate objects areconcepts and thus to be discriminated for what its worth based onpragmatism!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt-------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Meditation continues in the form of answers to Vyasji's questionswith deep appreciation!Hopefully last two posts with this one cover most of the remainingones from no 3 onward!When I refer to we or I or any pronouns it means Consciousness orAtman that we are, the only Reality. However, we need to refer to usindividually for communication purpose and many practical reasons.In this spirit it is Consciousness as Sadhakas are questioning andanswering!Anything we know is Consciousness knowing Itself only becauseultimate Knower is THAT as us, and what is known are appearances assuch made up of thoughts as mind and feelings as bodily sensations,all perceived objects!Consciousness-Atman is the experience of Conscious Existence,indwelling Presence, Isness, and is self evident, no other knowerneeded to know this Presence or ISNess.It is not a state, or attribute. It is what it IS! As said before,It perceives only Itself as undivided(God sees everything God only,to God there is not everything else). This is said to emphasize theself-effulgence, self-luminous aspect, not attribute. ThisPerception is the whole and not time-space bound so it is notcreated, nor destroyed. However, when we separate It as objects byconceiving through thoughts in time-space fabric, specific objectthus conceived can end in time, but its Beingness cannot bedestroyed as it belongs to Totality from which it emerged and intowhich it dissolves!When I use "We perceive", I mean we as Consciousness perceives andendows mind to conceive objects so that Leela can go on! We manifesteverything out of ONE thing by conceiving through mind this Totalityjust as spider weaves web out of itself and then winds it in itself!This is our freedom to be Individual too!Can another object perceive? no, object itself is perceived. OnlyConsciousness being chaitanya perceives.By Perception, I mean raw sensations-data that sense-complex in thepresence of Atman seems to produce as Consciousness of ????.Conception is what I call perceptions resolved as objects with mind-intellect and when such mind assumes itself as knower, it isEGO/Jeeva, considering it as separate reality of beig subject apartfrom Real KNOWER!Nature of objects perceived/conceived are thus experienced by usonly as Consciousness, but we equate such objects with outsideobjects for which we have no direct knowledge. We only experienceour perceptions of the world which are subjective only, never theworld itself! In otherwords, world cannot be perceived independentof Consciousness in our experience!The way I use "experience" is that it is discrete, has beginningwith objects perceived as thoughts/feelings and end only to replacewith another such objects. "Experiential" to me, is that which iscontinuous, never begins or ends, is subjective in nature but freeof attributes of pairs of opposites, shines attributes-gunas ofobjects, always present as background or substratum of allappearances. It is Consciousness that IS or Brahman!Perceived and Perceiving Consciousness-Atman are same in the sensethat waves are perceived while ocean is perceiving Itself. For thepurpose of Leela, play, or Maya principle Consciousness forgets andconsiders appearances as Real until It chooses to end the game insome apparent birth and returns Home apparently as It never leftHome! Maya is not a problem, to consider it as Real is the problem!I think these answers questions on the path starting with oneself toreach ONE SELF, from SakshiBhav to SarvatmBhav, from "me" to ME,from personal being to Impersonal BEING and finally feel VasudevSarvam!I remain open to further dialogues!Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt-PRIOR POSTINGHari Om Pratapji ! I am sorry inspite of making efforts , I could notunderstand a lot of your Article. Hence I humbly seek elucidation byyou on the first part of your article.. That should make thedeliberations more productive, and fruitful, at least morecomprehensible. I seek your forgiveness for being of dullerintellect. Hope you will bless me with answers : 1 How do you say at the outset that we all areexperiencing "undivided consciousness"? Are we really ? I thought weare experiencing 'individual consciousness' only whichmeans 'divided' and not 'undivided' ! 2 You said : We can never experience "world out there including ourown body" in itself, as absolute truth. Out where? Why can't we experience the body as truth? Is not almostentire humanity experiencing the body as Self? For what Scripturesare struggling, otherwise? How it is relative? Relative to what?Where is the Q of absolute or relative Truth in "experiencing" ? "Initself" means in " which self" ? What is "itself" ? 3 You said: We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which isConsciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). We know what as perception ? Who is knowing? Who is that "we"? Whatis IS-NESS ? Is it a state / attribute or the ONLY thing ? If it isan attribute then there must be an experiencer also ? If there is noexperiencer then of what avail are the statements made by you sofrequently such as "we experience, perceiver, perceived, we" etc ?How can consciousness ( chetana) in itself perceive? Perceive whatwhen there is nothing except that ONLY existing? 4 Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu,Consciousness, as we experience them inthe moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separateobjects. Who is the experiencer( We) ? Is there any or there is "IS NESSONLY" sans experiencer? How objects are same as IS NESS ? "THUS"means what? What have you stated in previous two/three sentences ormore which makes you to conclude that nature of objects is same asthat of "us" ? Too fast a conclusion , Sir ? Please state the basisfor such conclusion ! Can objects also experience or perceive ? Doobjects exist? If yes, then do they have same property as "we" (inyour words) have? If no, where is the Q their being ONE with wholeor having same property as "we" have ? Is "Consciousness" sentientor inert? Or neither of them? Where is the need for discriminationif both are sentient or both are inert ? Where is the need forScriptures- if both YOGA and BHOGA are same? 5 You said: Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? What is your view? Are they same? If yes, how? If no, why not? Ifperceived, perception, and perceiver are same, then how the Q oftheir being same or not arises? Where does it arise?In whom does it arise? If they are not same, how there is ONE only ? 6 So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. "Experientially" - of whose experience, Pratapji ? How you havesaid "essentially"? Is it so ? What makes them ONE experientially?Are we experiencing that? Is their any EXPERIENCER of that state ofIS NESS (existence) or not ? Yes or No !! Pratapji ! Consider me as Devil's Advocate only and respond so thatall may benefit - SATSANGA !! Beauty lies there !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------Dear Sadaks,Contemplate on Sant Jadabharat in Srimat Bagavath talking to kingRaguguna on palanquin,saying "Oh king Raguguna, for me the palanquin, you and me are oneand the same from same earth". Can Sadaks pass their views in crisp.If everything and anything is same, where comes the question of SriKrishna telling Arjuna to wage war with Kauravas. Here Arjuna is oneand the other is Kauravas. But essence of everything and anything iscorrect. HOW?Jai Sri KrishanaB.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!I really appreciate Mike and Shashikalaji for their feedback andresponse. It helps my own understanding really as it works as abooster shot! I relate to what Mike said while reading Ch 11 andappreciate it too in the same spirit.Let me answer the question raised by Shashikalaji! First of all myrespects to her as she was the instrumental in making me share thispost!In the beginning, we are told by Scriptures or Realized souls likeSwamiji, you are not body-mind-sense complex, you are sentient andthe world being inert. So disidentify with such objects as they areperishable while you are Imperishable Atman or Consciousness! Whendeeply contemplated, "you"(?) take your stand as Witnessing Presencewithin, relative to everything being witnessed(SakshiBhav). This isessential first step, The crown jewel of Discrimination(vivekchudamani) between what one is, Atman, Conscious Being, andeverything witnessed, and both are apart. That which isperceived/conceived(body-mind-world) is distinct from all PerceivingConsciousness or Awareness. However, this is still relative truthas you are witness only relative to witnessed!Now comes Vasudev Sarvam or SarvatmaBhav! As you may appreciate bylooking openly at our inner experience at the time of perceptions itis NEVER that of separate objects.It is one Wholeness because one sees so many objects and spacecontaining them including one's own body, all at once. This is as ifin a pitch dark room one sees only dense-mass of darkness, onecannot even see one's own body! All of a sudden light is turned onand one sees separate objects as if they are materialized fromoneness of darkness surrounding them. Similarly we separate andconceive objects when we think "this is chair, this is table, thisis another person, this is me etc. These very thoughts of ours havetime and space embaded in them(Actually Consciousness creates time-space through us) so they help conceive separate objects we arefamiliar with outside. Nevertheless, they are experienced assubjective thoughts of those objects which we think are outsideindependently, not true. Such thoughts are Consciousness shaped upas those objects in all our exoeriences, just as water is shaped aswaves in the ocean.In other words, an object has to be one with Consciousness in orderfor it to be experienced by us, Conscious Being! So all we reallyexperience is Consciousness itself as body-mind and world. There isnothing else in our experience other than Consciousness, Reality,ISNESS! This very Consciousness is Absolute Existence, oneHomogeneous mass, so to speak, experientially! IT is what weeseentially are, and It is not personal, is shared by each body-mind! As a matter of fact there is nothing personal in the entirecosmos! We are like a window for Absolute to see through us andenjoy ITSELF as World(leela)!This is Vasudev Sarvam! All there is is this Consciousness, Brahman!So when we say objects don't have existence, it means separateobjects don't exist as they appear to be independent of ourexistence, however, Absolute Existence or BEINGNESS never ceases tobe disguised as diversity, the meaning of BG Ch 2:16.No one has ever experienced world in itself, it has been alwaysthrough being Conscious and as Consciousness. In and of itselfeverything is ONE UNDIVIDED BEINGNESS which Consciousness!Thus we deal with relative objects based on how they appear in ourmiinds, likes and dislikes due to conditioned by such objects takenreal!However, with this understanding Relative world of objects arediscriminated properly as you have suggested, and the biggest helpis that we don't get attached to them and fall apart.Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari- Dear Pratap Bhatt, I read your article several times, and it made me think deeply, thatis really good. It reminded me of things I meditated on, discussedand even experienced and so on. My mind went to Bhagavad Gita Ch.11 the revelation of Lord Krishna'sSupreme form (Ishwara).Before I continue I would like to share something. I read the wholeof the chapter, I was in a very focused state of mind, as I read theHoly Gita, something happened, yes I was reading it in English, butthe language of it faded away, I felt as if I were right there in astrange way, I felt I was a privileged observer, the richness of thewhole thing was fixed in my mind, hmmm, thats the best way mystumbling words can put it.(Most inadequately). Getting back to Gitaji Ch 11, Arjuna saw Shri Krishna, who heconsidered to be a great friend, in an overpowering form, I presumeonly Arjuna witnessed this, or more correctly was given the gift toperceive Ishwara, his senses were confounded he was terrified, andthen of course the vision left him. A friend of mine who was a walking encyclopedia, said that 90% of allwe perceive is filtered out, otherwise we could not function.(I thinkI read that somewhere myself).My proviso is the focused mind can transcend these limitations, andthe most powerful focus one can have is the 'The Divine Beloved'. B.G. 1153. Neither by the Vedas, nor by austerity, nor by gift, nor bysacrifice, can I be seen in this form as you have seen me (soeasily). 54. But by single-minded devotion can I, of this form, be known andseen in reality and also entered into, Arjuna! With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor)--------------------------- Dear Sadaks,A ray of light has 9 colors. But we see it as white. A minute dot ofwater try on your computer screen, it will reflect nine colours. Thelight is one but has 9 colours within.Jai Sri KriahnaB.Sathyanarayan------------------------------Jai Hanuman Mr Bhatt ! You said :In summary objects experienced are one withConsciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Realityof "myself" and objectsare one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discriminationin dealing with them! Can you elaborate as to how considering reality of "What exists"(Self) and "what does not exist at all" (objects) - by consideringthem (existent and non existent) to be ONE in the beginningitself, "naturally guide me to discrimination/wisdom in dealing withthem" ? Say, If I consider myself and body tobe ONE in essence , how will I then discriminate? How the reality ofyourself and objects is the same/one ? Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita,relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant tomotivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group'sprimary aim of deeper understanding of Gita. FOR RESPONDER1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka'stime.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Shree HariRam Ram "Vasudeva SarvamEverything is Paramatma (God)" is the ultimate ofall knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this tobe "Vigyaan" and balance all to be "Gyaan" ! To understand /realize the depth of this topic, sadhaks will have to be crisp,precise in stating scriptures. This is not a topic of only wordsand debate. Therefore please kindly pose specific questions andspecific responses - crisply, concisely and precisely based onscriptures only.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! There have been many postings on the subject "Duties of householder...", so I chose this, sort of a new topic. It is to build onShashikalaji's comments on essence of "everything and anything" anduse of viveka. The essence of all things, in our experience is just ONE, UndividedConsciousness! We can never experience "world out there including ourown body" in itself, as absolute truth. We just know it asperceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS-NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). Thus perceived objects are madeup of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them inthe moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separateobjects. Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. We cancall it Vasudev, God, Atman, Paramatman, Reality, Consciousness orwhatever name. This is called Absolute Truth of all our experiences,the true I! In jainism, they have term "NischayNaya", I think.Soon after the perceptions, mind with memory, intellect, etc resolvesthe Wholeness into objects that we are familiar in practical life. Sofirst perceptions, and then conceptions of objects with names happenin our experience! Names and forms are thus relative truth. It ishere that we need to be guided by discrimination to have a properperspective for each such object, so we can all function in the worldof relativity. This is VyavaharNaya in Jainism, I think. When we deeply understand the Essence of all things, being ONEReality, Paramtman, without a second Reality of thusperceived/conceived objeccts, we can function without attachments andthereby without suffering. In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even aswaves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of "myself" and objectsare one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discriminationin dealing with them! Vedanta even goes on to say "knower of Brahman becomes Brahman",Brahman being the Reality, the Essence of all! Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt ---------------------------NEW POSTING HARE KRISHNA Krishna, in the joy of Loving, Showered His Blessings On Himself Bestowed on Himself the gift of Self- remembrance And, narinder was no more Only he was- - - - - Krishna - - - - Hare Krishna .... Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna , Hare Hare In the newly awakened Krishna consciousness Where-ever there was witnessing, seeing ..... Seeing through The mind's eye Or The Eye of the eye The Ear of the ear The Tongue of the tongue The Mind of the mind, Where so ever was the witnessing There was only Krishna everywhere In manifold manifestation ! In manifold manifestation Himself the witness Himself the winessing Himself the witnessed. Himself the rejoicing In Self - remembrance In the Self. Krishna - - - Hare Krishna ! Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna , Hare Hare AUM narinder bhandari --------- Dear Sadaks,Sri Manjulaji said so,"""we remain as light, vibration and sound, i.e., we are nothing but grossification of light, vibration and sound (hindi: ham jyoti, spandan aur dhwani ka hi ghat swaroop hain). Any one would like to share their thoughts?""".Again it is not light, vibration and sound. How? From light comes vibration, sound and solar energy. Small match stick when ignited by match box, one can hear a small sound. So in all cases of light, sound varies from the quantum of light. Say thunder, light comes first then the sound a little later. Light travels at 1,86,000 miles per second. Sound travels 1800 miles per second. Without light there is no sound or vibration, heat or energy Etc Light produces 8 properties, which matches with Astakshram Om Namo Narayanaya. So only ONE that Sri Vishnu/Narayana cause for everything and anything, but HE has NO cause.Sri Vishnu roopaya Shivaye. Sri Shiva roopaya Vishnuve.What Swamiji might has meant by saying you are the light not the lighted. Any lighting cause requires another source of fire, mode say Stick, matter say Ghee/oil. But the inner light Paramathuma, along with Jeeva and body illumines without source. That is you, you human. Now realize that light which can timeless exist with or without Jeeva and body. Please bear with these comments if I should be wrong.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan ----- PRIOR POSTING Vasudeva Sarvam It is YOU, Govinda, who weave The seven sounds Into the soundless Sound.YouWho swing the seven colours Into the Light of lights.LightThat pulsatesInThe soundless Sound.To create and sustainAn Existence so vastThatTime and SpaceFind themselves impotentTo suppress or express!And I Pure IntelligenceConsciousness,EnergyChangeless Unmoving,Do yetCreate Sustain and DestroyThe Three WorldsOnceEvery twenty- four hours!And choose to play the GameOf the Seeker and the SoughtOf the Dancer dancingEven when the DanceCries outTo beONE with the DancerIn Repose. HE ALONE PREVAILS He prevails! he prevails! he alone Who , yesterday , did prevailTomorrow, too will prevail He aloneFor whom all yesterdays are the Light of His eyesAnd tomorrows, the Laughter of His beingHe, who Himself is All yesterdays All tomorrows¦ And that which lies between¦.Ah ! The tyranny of the Mind That chooses to play in time In yesterdays, today and morrows While Eternity of This Moment Now laughs and laughsNo yesterday ever was, Beloved, nor morrows ever existAnd Today ?Ah ! Guess again ! If yesterday is the mist of memoryTomorrow, the cloud of imaginationToday ?Does today Exist. Is there any Today at all ! Reject Time Shun yesterdays and morrows And be ever Free of Today and Time¦ And beyond Time, beyond yesterdays, today and morrowsBlissfully enjoy the dream The Dream that is the Gift of Time Memory and imaginationWhich is This Moment Now .AUM narinder bhandari------------------------- Divine All. Pranams. Very beautiful message by Swamiji. There is no doubt about us being light and not the lighted one. Few weeks back, this thought/click/dawning happened that between Pramatma and us in our gross form (includs body, mind, intelluct and memory), we remain as light, vibration and sound, i.e., we are nothing but grossification of light, vibration and sound (hindi: ham jyoti, spandan aur dhwani ka hi ghat swaroop hain). Any one would like to share their thoughts? I agree Vyasji, Yoga Vashsitha is a jem of all jems!!! If one really understands it, one will know that nothing actually exist!!! humble regards, always at Thy Mayaavi Feet Manjula Patel--------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Here is the Ultimate Subject, The LIGHT of all lights. Pujya Swamiji's most profound message yet!This Light is what we ARE, not what is lighted, the body-mind-world! See it is not theoretical at all, is our experience as these words are written and read! Please, please!Swamiji says once this discrimination between Vasudeva, the Light, the imperishable, and Sarvam, the lighted, the perishables takes place, Realization of Vasudeva Servam also takes place! What it means that lighted objects considered as separate objects are perishables due to their existence in time-space causality, but when Lighted are see as One totality(which is our innermost experience), they are ONE Light, Non-dual! Our problem is we give thus lighted and illumined objects reality and get attached or resist them, while the Illuminator, the Only Reality, ISNESS gets IGNORED!Then he says: "There is nothing to be done. There is no description of this experience. It simply IS. Absolute stillness." Note here as he says, no description, only EXPERIENCE! In the vedantic text called Panchdashi, the entire chapter 10 "Natak Deepah" or "Lamp of the theater stage" is devoted to illustrate this point!This post is an expression of my appreciation, gratitude and Pranaam to Swamiji! I hope Sadhakas will be helped tremendously upon serious contemplation! Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt----------------- Hari Om Agreed Jee ! But theory has its own beauty, particularly when it emanates straight from Holy Scriptures. Oh ! What a bliss Yoga Vaashishtha brings to the Sadhak. The objects seen in dream were only creations of mind, where seen, seeing and seer- all was mind only. That is considered as the mind which is the form of the Infinite Principle (tattwa) of the Self, the all-powerful Supreme Spirit, created by its power of thought or will (sankalpa) ! The Supreme Consciousness, excited by the powers of movement in the form of space and time and pusuing imagination, attains to the position of grasping things. This vibration or movement is of the nature of imagination of objects. This Supreme Consciousness flows forth by itself, imagining objects which have gone beyond its nature. Itself having faded all around , it is enfeebled. That is considered as MIND. The Consciousness which is associated with objects imagined is declared as comprehension or grasping of ideas. That state of Consciousness which is intent on objects is considered as the sprout of imagination. Consciousness, thinking of objects perceived as if they are distinct from itself, attains to the state of imagination, like a seed attaining to the state of a sprout !! Vasudeva and the world are one and real. The One is existing as the Many and the whole appears not to be so. The Pure is spread as Impure. That which is not void (Paramatma) appears as void (world) and the void is manifested as non void. That which is large is like a thing which is not large and the one which is not expanded qppears like one expanded. That which is immutable appears LIKE ONE LIABLE TO CHANGE. The one which is equal and calm appears like one disturbed. The real one is INVISIBLE like a non existent thing. Only THAT has risen like one which is not THAT !! The undivided one appears like divided. THE ONE WHICH IS NOT INACTIVE HAS BECOME LIKE ONE WHICH IS INERT. Though unknowable, it appears as one having the nature of the known. Without parts, it is shining like one with parts. He who is not "I" appears like I. One without destruction appears as one which is perishable.Though free from Maya (illusion), it is like the stainless sun with a circular orb of illusory rays. Know that Brahman as the Lord of the Wise, as you know the great ocean as the lord of the waters !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---- Dear sadaks,Question: How to not see the world (inert, temporary), and instead see ONLY God ? (Sansaar ne dikhkar, kewal Paramatma Kaise dikhey?) May this be a little bit of message for clarity.Sukh Brama was walking away from his father Veda Vyas. His father was following his son. In a pond there were woman bathing clotheslines. As Sukh was walking along they never even bothered. But when his father Ved Vyas walking the woman raped themselves in clothes. Ved Vyas aasked these woman, "Why are you woman clothing looking at me? My son is teen ager and you woman neglect him. " Woman answered, ' Saint Vyasji it is your first cause that because you are asking this question, that is you see us and yourself as 2 objects. While Sukhji see the trees around, birds of air, prakurthi and us with NO differance. Sukhji see Sarvam Para Bramam. One and the only one. ''Sadaks, seeing, hearing, talking etc should not be attached in mind level as objects of pleasures. Eyes can see but mind should be tuned to Neti (Negate) the objects on earth, such that mind should cast eagerness to see Guru, Parents, Bagavan. Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Shri HariVery interesting idea "Light of all Lights" message from world to divinityRam Ram Pawan Singhal -------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Some posts of Sadhakas seemed theoretical to Shashikalaji! However, these posts echo Advaita Vedanta, a rare Gem of Seers of Truth! With all the respects, to some of us, this is the most practical as it addresses the ignorance at its core. There are many approaches to Truth, some simple and some not-so-simple depending upon sadhakas.Why not we share what we understand by putting them on this platform and let all take a look and decide for themselves with open mind. Many aspects of Gita and Swamiji's teachings are preparatory in nature to make us eligible to receive the Ultimate Subject, our true nature! For example, advice such as "don't get attached to world, give up doership/enjoyership, Don't think bad of anyone" etc find extraordinary meanings and get implemented naturally when one understands one is not an individual one thinks one is. All attachments are inherent in the individual, not in the world objects, as any separate entity finds the need to defend its interests at any cost even if its unfair to other such individuals. Strange as it may sound, we don't have any proof we are such autonomous individuals! "I am this body and so and so..." is just a false belief taken real, and we kill each other if we have to for this belief! Also the doer we assume ourselves to be is really the "skill, know-how, knowledge etc" stored as intellect that we identify with all our life without questioning, taking as I, the doer. See this intellect is also given to us! It is losing sight of this truth and keep trying to be free of doership. Seeing the truth of this liberates from doership while doing karmas! Otherwise we keep fighting to get rid of perceived doer with believed doer!Neti, Neti approach is not just talk, nor complex! We make it complex by not giving it a try!In this approach, we are asked to see that anything and everything known by mind is defined in space-time imposing attributes, etc thus making them limited, and therefore, it cannot be Iti, Iti or Vasudeva being Unlimited!Upon deep understanding, mind gives up all attempts to hold THAT, naturally, and thus in the emptiness of such mind Vsudeva invites Himself in and takes the reins of that carriage becoming its charioteer!The point is that if our mind is simple enough like that of famous Bhaktas, like Meera, Devotion path may sound simple, and if we are given to inquiry, let it be so! Ultimately its the mind that needs to be Silent on its own as it cannot be made silent by dismissing it when it wants to know answers! Samadhan - "Understanding with satisfaction" plays a major role in silence of the mind than even Samadhi, if mind is asking and asking!Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om That which is constant at the beginning and the end is called Real. What is Real at the beginning and end, is only real when existing at present. What doesn't exist at the beginning and the end, is so at the present also. Of what nature could the reality be, of a thing that does not exist at the beginning and the end? There is no destruction at any time of that which exists. The delusion of the world is of the mind. It is neither Real nor Unreal ! It is not born; and it has risen like a conjuring trick, (causing illusory perceptions) of a number of minds. The same illusion may be seen by a number of persons due to illusion. Therefore, this objective world is not real at any time; nor is it unreal. It is neither real nor unreal as the delusion of a snake in a rope. It has risen like the illusion of dreams and shines like a false idea. The wealth of magic constituting the world is very much exhibited or spread here by mind, as a moving wave, though unreal, is exhibited by a river caused by heat (mirage), as if it were real. Unreal on account of its instability and real on account of its appearance or perception, the world WHICH IS A PROJECTION OF THOUGHT, is of the nature of both reality and unreality as a dream is. As pearl necklaces, feathers of peacock's tail, balls of hair and the like seen in the sky are unreal, but have become reality for those WITH A DEFECTIVE VISION, so, the world appears to those with defective vision. This is only unreality resembling reality and is an appearance. It is uncreated, yet experienced ! It is not Real but EXISTS as reality. Next: Firm Belief of Mind (Sankalpa) Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Beautiful are Expressions of Truth, Itself remaining INEXPRESSIBLE!Many are its Manifestations, Itself remaining ONE Unmanifest!The Essence of Everything and Anything and Nothing!It is heartening to read posts by Vyasji, Nagaji, Narinderji, Moderatorji, Mike, Sathyanarayanji, all sharing the same Wisdom in their own ways! I shared the same understanding hoping it answered Vyasji's tough questions, though not as eloquently!It is a real joy to get booster shots! I thank you all sadhakas! Consciousness, THAT, SELF, THE ABSOLUTE, BELOVED KRISHNA of BG ALL ONE REALITY, DIVINITY! Vasudeva in guise of everything and anything!As Vyasji put it, This is the ultimate subject!To that I would add: And That ultimate Subject is "I". That Sat-Chit-Anand appears(feels/thinks) as "I", the body-mind, I call "me/mine", you call "you/yours", we call "us/ours"! What a trick the magician is playing!Let us unfold it, right now, not later!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt --Jai Hanuman I don't believe in 'theoritical' types of talks. Swamiji also insisted upon simple down to earth conduct. Vyasji appears to be in theoritical mode suddenly. Ok ! He has right to do so ! May be that is necessary too ! But to my mind, practical is more important. Hence here is practical talk on the subject. There are 2 things. Read last Sadhak Message of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj . One- BG 2:16 ! Two- BG 7:19 ! How to 'realise' - Vasudeva Sarvam- BG 7:19 ? Every thing is 'thou and thou' only ! How ? How?? Don't understand any one to be bad ! Don't do bad to any one !! Don't wish bad for any one !!! If you see any one indulging in evil thoughts/ deeds/ desires- think : God is playing as per Time - Kaliyuga !! Conduct yourself carefully- as per order of God- BG 2:47 ! But from inside your heart never consider any one to be bad ! Enough Jee ! Enough !! Why to be so complex? Be that, if that helps complexity loving Sadhaks ! Why this 'NETI ..NETI' lecture? There is ONLY one existing. 'NETI NETI' is BG 2:16 ! Sure ! But is BG 7:19 clear? NETI NETI ! Why such big talk? Baba ! Simple ! Do objects seen in dream exist in reality ? No ! So long as dream was there, they 'appeared' real ! Where are they now? Who made/ created them? MIND Jee, Mind ! Throw mind into the dust bin ! Where is the world now ? Where are objects ? What NETI NETI ? Why ? Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala --- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om On the subject of Vasudeva Sarvam (7:19) or Nasato Vidyate Bhavah (2:16)- main Qis how objects / world do not exist at all? Do we not directly experience theworld ? How to negate that? The fact is that this world is the expansion of Brahman. The triple world iswithin consciousness. Brahman alone appears as the world. The universe createdby Brahma is mental. Brahma has a body consisting only of thought. Hence Brahmais known in the Scriptures as Cosmic Mind. The imagination of objects is of thenature of mere appearance or illusion of Absolute Consciousness. That indeed is described by the word Jeeva ( embodied/individual soul) which isthe natural throb of the pure sky of Consciousness. As there is movement of wind, the hotness of fire or the coldness of ice, so there is Jeevahood of the Self. That Self Principle ( or the Absolute Consciousness) , which is not limited byspace, time etc takes a body held in space and time, through its own power andONLY OUT OF SPORT ! ( Ekaki na ramate ). The Self is spontaneously perceived ,as if it were another, only by itself. When Self produces the energy calledthinking ( or imagination) like wind its power of motion, then, the universalSelf becomes the mind consisting of grasping of thoughts, appearing as it weredifferently, manifesting its form of its own accord. THUS , THE ABSOLUTE CONSCIOUSNESS, IMAGINING ITSELF AS DIFFERENT BY NATURE, GOESAS IT WERE TO THE STATE OF OTHERNESS BY ITSELF , IN THE FORM OF ITS OWN ERROR (i e , such imagination). As the same man indeed becomes another in a moment on account of anger , so, theone of the nature of Pure Consciousness , has gone to the state of otherness,having the stain of error/imagination. For him who considers this collection of rays of solar light as different fromthe Sun, this is indeed different, as it were, from the Sun !!! (Other examples-Gold/Bracelet; Water/Wave; Fire/flame; ) To be contd. In the meantime let there be deliberations/focussed and brief onthe subject / material shared so far. Even Moderators have requested ALL Sadhaksto whole heartedly participate. I will answer each and every question on thesubject. Start asking Qs (on shared material) as I continue taking thedeliberations forward. This is ULTIMATE subject ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B-------------------------------There is nothing else besides Vasudeva, is this sentiment that Bhagwaan hasexpressed mainly for a bhakta (loving devotee)? If you want me to answer this question … "The Truth is everything" is the fact -no matter whether it is told or not, whether it is told to somebody or everybodyor nobody, whether anybody receives it or not, whether anybody accepts it ordisputes it … the very statement covers everything with absolutely noexceptions. But, one who receives the message earnestly is invariably a Bhaktain essence. Isn't so? THAT does not address anybody in particular ... yet,anybody, no matter what, is elligible and capable of approaching THAT! NETI means "anything is not THAT" ... it does not mean "THAT is not anything".THAT is anything and everything. But, nothing can be THAT in isolation as TheTruth cannot be multiple. This results in Mano Naasha (annihilation ofsubjective identity) - that is what I tried to mean in the beginning of myoriginal utterances. But, an individual cannot fathom what THAT means thanks to its self-rooted,self-promoted and self-protected confinement camps called identities. The fellowhelplessly insists the images collected as its identities as "the only reality".It does not mean that The Truth could be excluded even in such ignorance - THATincludes everything without saying. But, the ignorant cannot fathom thewonderful experience of the Universal Presence as it cannot break open itscocoons of ignorance in terms of its beleifs and doubts, desires and fears, andlikes and dislikes. The only way to entice the ignorant to break open itscocoons is to suggest the opposite (NETI) of its beliefs rather strongly. Whenthe deeprooted beliefs are negated strongly, there is a positive chance that onewould look into one's self-proclaimed identities to come out with ajustification. As every image that the ignorant brings out in support, "TheNETI" stands against smashing the images one after the other burning down theignorance hoarded in terms of the images within. When all the images areannihilated, one can experience The Absolute. Unless the individual can fathombeyond the cocoons of beliefs, "Vasudevah Sarvam", The Absolute remains a notionin one's mind. NETI helps breaking all the beliefs helping us attain The Truth. When "NETI" hints upon The Truth, then, "NETI" means "NOT JUST THIS" and not"NOT THIS" … as we apply such an appreciation in our lives, Vasudeva blooms toITS infinitude breaking all the barriers we have gathered. This results in AatmaBodha (Universal Awareness). That is what I tried to mean later in my originalutterances. Anything IS THAT, but anything trapped in a perceived domain is NOT - meaning,"do not limit your appreciation to anything as such … let it flow freelyencompassing the whole universe and beyond … do not confine yourself to anyfigment even if it is the whole universe itself … then, there is an opportunityto witness The Vasudeva, The Lord of All. In fact, "Vasudevah Sarvam" itself is a discriminative notion that is requiredtill the contradictions of real and unreal loom around in one's existence. Once,all the unreal is mitigated, real does not make sense either. Just like "You areeating" is a meaningless statement to the one who is already eating, "VasudevahSarvam" is a meaningless statement to a Prahlada who is already THAT. As Swamijisays, such a natural presence wherein both real and unreal loose their dominionsis "Vasudevah Sarvam" (REFER below). Om Tat Sat! Respects.Naga Narayana. Excerpts from "Sahaja Nivritti" from Sadhan Sudha Sindhu: Asat ko satta denese hee nivritt (sahaja-nivritt) aur praapt (swatah-praapt) -ye do vibhag kahe jaate hai. Asatko satta na de to na nivritt hai, na praapthai, pratyut sattamaatr jyon-ki-tyon hai. Dusare shabdon me, jabtak asatki sattahai, tabtak vivek hai. Asatki satta mitneper vivek hee tattvagnyaanme parinat hojaata hai; kyonki jab asatki satta hai hee nahi, to phir sat hee shesh rahega.Iseeko Geetane "Vasudevah Sarvam" kahaa hai. The distinction between the real (the ever-attained) and the unreal (theever-departing) remains only because one provides importance to the unreal. Oncethe unreal becomes insignificant in one's perception, there is neitherattainable nor unattainable, but mere presence as such. In other words, thediscrimination is present (and required) only till there are traces of theunreal. Once the unreal is annihilated at its core, the same discriminationmatures into realization because, when there is no unreal at all, everything isnothing but the mere presence of all, The Truth, The Sat. This is referred to as"Vasudevah Sarvam" in the Bhagavadgita. PS: Original Hindi version is given, in case, there is any misgivings in itsenglish version. Respects. Naga. --------------------------------Dear Sadaks,Everything is that a worldly man desires. No matter how much wealth, fame, onemay have but a little more. A millionaire, then a multimillionaire, 1st richestman on earth Etc.Anything is for realized one. Anything on earth is Vasudev Swaroop-Poornathuvam, nothing beyond and permanent. So the Gyani cannot have 2 differentthings, he sees Vasudeva Sarvam.Ordinary man sees another person Mr/Mrs X by looks, by his dress, by his wealthEtc. But Gyani sees the same Mr.X inside that illumines is Paramathuma. All theexternal features of Mr.X is unseen.Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan------------------------------- THE NATURE AND EXPERIENCE OF ISNESS ( The essence ) One day, of Krishna , Govinda, Satguru, I asked,O KrishnaGovinda, my Love,Satguru, my Being, pray let me know,What is Realisation?Realisation, answered Krishna , is the IS-NESS of all that ISAnd Beloved, implored within me, What is my IS-NESS ?I cannot say, I cannot tell,Govinda smiled, But IS-NESS happened, it just happened !The Gift of my SatguruAndTime was no more,Nor Space,Nor speech, nor silence,Only ISNESS.In the Eternity of the MomentThe giving of the GiftThe receiving of the GiftNo Giver, No Reciever,Only ISNESS. In the Eternity of the MomentSilence that IS.In the Eternity of the MomentThe Soundless Sound.In the Eternity of the MomentThe One Word.In the Eternity of the MomentThe expansion of the Word, The Vedas.In the Eternity of the MomentAll movement, the World, the Universe.In the Eternity of the MomentTotal stillness, Void,Full-ness absolute.In the Eternity of the MomentOnly IS-NESS.Only IS-NESS, just Is-ness!Only the Giving, only the ReceivingSans Giver, Sans ReceiverOnly IS-NESS.Only IS-NESSOnly gratitudeOnly Loving, choiceless lovingOnly One-ness, Not- two-ness foreverOf the seeker and his Guru, ONlY IS-NESS. AUMnarinder bhandari---------------------------PRIOR POSTING Q: When there is nothing else besides Vasudeva, then where is thequestion of IS NOT? is unclear.... I agree ... there is no room for "IS NOT" ever. THAT IS CORRECT. TheAsat by its very nature is "unreal" and hence "non-existent" on itsown. How can a non-existent be anything at all?! That is nothing butnothing!! The "IS NOT" is just a figment of our imagination when we try tocontain everything that we perceive within the boundaries of ourcognition. The very presence of "IS NOT" just reminds us that we areNOT in The Vignyaana but trapped within our cognitive dependence.Till cognitive dependence rules, whatever perceived DOES NOT LOOK LIKE "SAT",THE REAL to a true seeker - because, the cognition keepschanging the perceived perpetually. It is in this context, all thewise saints say "NETI" ... "IS NOT" is a necessity for seeking Truthtill Asat leaves no traces in our presence. That is the onlyfool-proof way of realizing our ignorance in believing the limitedcognitive perception itself as "the reality". Once the Asat ismitigated encore, ONLY SAT stays, ONLY VIGNYAANA remains, ONLY TRUTHprevails. Applying the essence of appreciation backwards in our dailylife, one would then say that "the so-called Asat" is also THATalone.That means, "The Asat" is non-existent whether we acknowledge or not.Such an understanding can come only after attaining the Tattva. To start with ... under dominion of the discrimination anythingperceived cannot be THE COMPLETE as the preception leaves outinfinitude beyond itself. But once The Absolute is attained, THATalone is prevalent in everything. The very notion of the Asat ismitigated encore and hence one need not verify anything as Satanymore. My most favorite example for this is from Swamiji("Bhagavattattva" in Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga): For a mundane person, the Asat is as crisp and clear as a solid linedrawn on a solid rock (NETI is extremely necessary here).For a truthful seeker of truth, in the beginning, it becomes like aline drawn on sand (Still NETI remains important for progress).For a truth seeker in whom the wisdom has bloomed, its is like a linedrawn on water (NETI fades away as the SAT prevails).For a Tattvagnya who is permanently established in The Vignyaana thatSwamiji refers to, the Asat, the unreal is truly as unreal andillusive as a line drawn in space ... IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST! Thenwhere is the question of IS NOT when we contemplate on "VaasudevahSarvam"? You are right ... then ... "IS NOT" is absolutelyirrelevant; IS alone is relevant as well as prevalent. As you correctly pointed out in your note, most of us (at least I amclear about myself) are NOT EVEN FIT to talk about THAT as I amnowhere near THAT ... ONLY REALIZED ONES such as Swamiji can talk onsuch matter. However, if I have to contemplate on such an idea, I AMBOUND TO BE TRUTHFUL TO THE IDEA RECEIVED IN AS MUCH CLARITY ANDTRANSPARENCY AS POSSIBLE - THAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY. As Swamiji sayswhile teaching us how to apply discrimination ("Vibhaga Yoga", inSadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga), we should adapt the truthfulappreciation that we perceive in the realized ones truthfully ... atleast while contemplating on THAT if not all the time! That is my limited understanding on this. If you want more, I amafraid, the only way is to invoke The Swamiji and such realized onesin our contemplation ... it is a wonderful journey of perpetualremoval of the debris (the unreal) hoarded within ... That is all Ican share on this ... Thank You. Respects. Naga Narayana--------------------------Shree HariRam Ram Nagaji, you say - wise saints say "NETI" ... "IS NOT" is a necessity for seekingTruth. Does that mean "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19), "I am Being (sat,real) and Non-being (asat, unreal) both." There is nothing else besidesVasudeva, is this sentiment that Bhagwaan has expressed mainly for a bhakta(loving devotee)? Sarvottamji,Swamiji has spoken to you about Vasudeva Sarvam, can you provide your insightson what is meant by "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19). All sadhaks welcome toshare on Gita 9:19. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------------------------- Thank you, Naga Narayana jee............ ISNESS narinder bhandari---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING "Vasudeva SarvamEverything is Paramatma (God)" is the ultimate ofall knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this tobe "Vigyaan" and balance all to be "Gyaan" ! What a wonderful statement! We most often jump aroundconsidering "Gnyaana" itself as "Vignyaana"!! Brihadaaranyaka(4.2.12) makes an acute observation on this. Yagnyavalkya concludesthat, "No gnyaana can ever be present in Moksha". Everything is THATVIGNYAANA alone. He calls IT "Vignyaanaghana" - purest essence ofall intelligence. We often get carried away by our informativerelational rationale to address the same. Vasudeva includes everything ... there is no room outside Him. Pl.refer to Vishwarupa Darshana Yoga. HE includes Duryodhana and thegang as much as the Yudhishthira and the gang. HE includes the mostpowerful of all as much as the weakest of all. HE includes therichest as much as the poorest. No parameter in any dimension canever outrange HIM! The discrimination and rationale can rule onlythe domain of Gnyaana ... not The Vignyaana. Again, it is an opinion projected through the mechanism ofGnyaana ... therefore, pl. treat it just that way. Respects. Naga Narayana---------------------------- MEW POSTING Vasudevah Sarvam - The Essence of ALL The essence of everything is THAT, The Absolute. The Matter IS THAT, but some matter trapped in a perceived body isNOT. The Energy IS THAT, but some energy trapped in a packet of matter is NOT.The Action IS THAT, but an action trapped in a packet of matter andenergy is NOT.The Thought IS THAT, but a thought trapped in an action is NOT.The Experience IS THAT, but an experience trapped in a thought isNOT.The Happiness IS THAT, but a happiness trapped in an experience isNOT. The Essence of all the joys ISThe Essence of all the experiences ISThe Essence of all the thoughts ISThe Essence of all the actions ISThe Essence of all the bodies ISThe Essence of all the energy ISThe Essence of all the matter IS... ... ...The essence of anything IS... ... ...The essence of everything ISThe Essence of ALL.The Absolute.The Truth. Vasudevah Sarvam. Respects.Naga Narayana--------------------------Shree HariRam RamNaga Narayanaji, Some further clarity needed on second note. IfEverything is Vasudeva (Gita 7:19), then is there a "is Not" assuch? "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19), "I am Being (sat, real) andNon-being (asat, unreal) both." When there is nothing else besidesVasudeva, then where is the question of IS NOT? is unclear....From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram-------------------------- Sadhakas, Namaste!It is a great privilege to be part of this wisdom platform sharingwith each other and learning along the way by bringing inexperiences in light of scriptural injunctions or pointers fromspiritual teachers! As Vyasji put it, then, we can have moremeaningful deliberations.With deep respects and divine friendship, I would answer thequestions posed by Vyasji as best as I can through the words. Itwill be better to break them in different posts.1. How can we experience undivided Consciousness at the outset?We do experience as such, it is just not noticed that way.Consciousness appears to be divided as many objects, split secondlater, after initial perception. Consciousness cannot be divided,only seems to be so like a movie characters seem to divide ONElight. Attraction for the seen objects distracts us from the non-divisible SEER of all objects!If one notices one doesn't see a particular object initially, onesees as if the view in front of our eyes is totally enveloped in thespace surrounding it, as if in the ocean of space, we see waves offorms, upon initial perceptions by senses as raw sensations. Thisocean of space itself is in the ocean of Consciousness, so to speak,as only a Conscious Being can perceive such space. However, thoughtarises "I see a chair there". Notice, when this is said, the time ofinitial perception is elapsed, so our recognizing a particularobject is in time-space fabric, an integral part of the thought "Isee a chair", chair being from past memory! By the time werecognize, it is already past, as all such thoughts are. We cannever know the separate objects without such thoughts and when weknow they are past. Object-thoughts are like waves in the Ocean ofConsciousness, so all objects including body we call ours arethoughts-Consciousness in our actual experience. The statement "Isee a chair" is not our experience in this sense, but isconceptualization of wholeness of experience for the sake oflanguage. Only seeing which is being conscious of, is experiential,I-thought as individual is identification with body-mind ofConsciousness and Chair-thought is memory. THAT Which isexperiential is always with us, and is Consciousness Itself, whereas experiences of objects as thoughts are fleeting!It is, as though, from Totality of view in front of us, we areextracting each object by offering it space and time to exist in ourthoughts-mind, in what seems to be division into many objects.Please see this fact: our thoughts manifest objects! When we are notconscious of objects, they remain non-manifest as in deep sleep!As this part of our experience is not noticed and deeplycontemplated upon, we see only separate objects and forgetting thatseparate objects are in mind as thoughts in terms of words(namesbeing time dimension and shape being space dimension).Also it is to be noticed that these objects are Consciousness ofthem, totally subjective in nature because objects don't participatein our re-cognition of them. No objects tells us what it is, only wecall them this or that. If we call cat a dog, or dog a cat, nothinghappens to them intrinsically. In otherwords, dog is true onlyrelative to everything else we know that is "not dog-like". Thus allnames are dependent on our agreement to call them as such so we canfunction and discriminate relatively, it is just a pragmatism only.A dog or any name for that matter is not absolute truth of theobject as referred to by that name. In absolute Truth everythinghas to be undivided, and nameless ONE which we call Existence, Is-ness intrinsic to all objects, and is referred to as SELF, Atman inthe context of sentient beings meaning Existence that knows Itself,self-evident Light of Consciousness, Being is "consciousness ofbeing" and consciousness is "being". Sat is Chit and Chit is Sat andis everyone's experience all the time even if not noticed as in deepsleep! And "we" are THAT Absolutely!This is Vedanta proclamation!PS: Consciousness as I used it above is THAT Absolute Existencewhich perceives through each body-mind all objects, while ITSELFremaining non-perceivable ever through senses and mind. However, itis ever present, deep rooted PRESENCE in us of Existence by whichall else is known. IT is the ultimate Knowingness! It is our True I,we, they, all such pronouns, we use for ourselves, but are taken asindividuals.Finally all such words including Consciousness too are concepts, butuseful to point to TRUTH, which can only be pointed to our BEING-NESS!This may answer some questions, more later...Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!More on Vyasji's questions: Pardon me, I have to repeat some points,no choice!We cannot experience the world "out there", means the world we thinkis external to us by thinking our body ends at the surface of outerskin. The world and body appear in our Consciousness as perceptions,so we only experience our perceptions of world, and body."Body" is name given to being conscious of sensations, feelings ofpains, discomforts, sensual pleasures etc, Such body is "my body" isalso due to identification with such feelings and sensations callingit "me", and is thus not experiential.If all these are seen as appearances in Consciousness, and knowinglyidentify with Consciousness as I, the seer of all that is "seen",the discrimination happens. Next the world and body experiencedinwardly is found to be consisting of Consciousness only. Then onecan say "I am not this body, but this body, along with all otherbodies, are in "ME" as Consciousness, All bodies are mine! This iswhat Vasudevah Sarvam to me. This is because anything oneexperiences is at once at a zero distance from Consciouseness!Our connection to the apparent world and body is only through thisConsciousness, Chaitanya! For instance, a thought about a chairoriginates, is sustained and dissolves in us without ever touchingthe outside chair! So chair we experioence is chair-thought only,not the chaor in itself!Everything as a whole is Divine SELF, not an individual body takenexclusively as mine! The body, mind and the World are in ME asKrishna says, but I am not in them if taken as individual objects.Now the real outside world in and of itself cannot be named asseparate objects, because then it is from the mind-names-forms only.This nameless reality is Brahman, The absolute, THAT, Ishwara, orwhatever name we give,is in reality nameless or all names are only HIS names! IF we nameobjects, then, from mind only we can do so, and thus ones isrelative to others. No named object can stand on its own leg asabsolute truth, it needs the legs of others to stand and validateit. Oneness is Reality of experience and the separate objects areconcepts and thus to be discriminated for what its worth based onpragmatism!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt-------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Meditation continues in the form of answers to Vyasji's questionswith deep appreciation!Hopefully last two posts with this one cover most of the remainingones from no 3 onward!When I refer to we or I or any pronouns it means Consciousness orAtman that we are, the only Reality. However, we need to refer to usindividually for communication purpose and many practical reasons.In this spirit it is Consciousness as Sadhakas are questioning andanswering!Anything we know is Consciousness knowing Itself only becauseultimate Knower is THAT as us, and what is known are appearances assuch made up of thoughts as mind and feelings as bodily sensations,all perceived objects!Consciousness-Atman is the experience of Conscious Existence,indwelling Presence, Isness, and is self evident, no other knowerneeded to know this Presence or ISNess.It is not a state, or attribute. It is what it IS! As said before,It perceives only Itself as undivided(God sees everything God only,to God there is not everything else). This is said to emphasize theself-effulgence, self-luminous aspect, not attribute. ThisPerception is the whole and not time-space bound so it is notcreated, nor destroyed. However, when we separate It as objects byconceiving through thoughts in time-space fabric, specific objectthus conceived can end in time, but its Beingness cannot bedestroyed as it belongs to Totality from which it emerged and intowhich it dissolves!When I use "We perceive", I mean we as Consciousness perceives andendows mind to conceive objects so that Leela can go on! We manifesteverything out of ONE thing by conceiving through mind this Totalityjust as spider weaves web out of itself and then winds it in itself!This is our freedom to be Individual too!Can another object perceive? no, object itself is perceived. OnlyConsciousness being chaitanya perceives.By Perception, I mean raw sensations-data that sense-complex in thepresence of Atman seems to produce as Consciousness of ????.Conception is what I call perceptions resolved as objects with mind-intellect and when such mind assumes itself as knower, it isEGO/Jeeva, considering it as separate reality of beig subject apartfrom Real KNOWER!Nature of objects perceived/conceived are thus experienced by usonly as Consciousness, but we equate such objects with outsideobjects for which we have no direct knowledge. We only experienceour perceptions of the world which are subjective only, never theworld itself! In otherwords, world cannot be perceived independentof Consciousness in our experience!The way I use "experience" is that it is discrete, has beginningwith objects perceived as thoughts/feelings and end only to replacewith another such objects. "Experiential" to me, is that which iscontinuous, never begins or ends, is subjective in nature but freeof attributes of pairs of opposites, shines attributes-gunas ofobjects, always present as background or substratum of allappearances. It is Consciousness that IS or Brahman!Perceived and Perceiving Consciousness-Atman are same in the sensethat waves are perceived while ocean is perceiving Itself. For thepurpose of Leela, play, or Maya principle Consciousness forgets andconsiders appearances as Real until It chooses to end the game insome apparent birth and returns Home apparently as It never leftHome! Maya is not a problem, to consider it as Real is the problem!I think these answers questions on the path starting with oneself toreach ONE SELF, from SakshiBhav to SarvatmBhav, from "me" to ME,from personal being to Impersonal BEING and finally feel VasudevSarvam!I remain open to further dialogues!Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt-PRIOR POSTINGHari Om Pratapji ! I am sorry inspite of making efforts , I could notunderstand a lot of your Article. Hence I humbly seek elucidation byyou on the first part of your article.. That should make thedeliberations more productive, and fruitful, at least morecomprehensible. I seek your forgiveness for being of dullerintellect. Hope you will bless me with answers : 1 How do you say at the outset that we all areexperiencing "undivided consciousness"? Are we really ? I thought weare experiencing 'individual consciousness' only whichmeans 'divided' and not 'undivided' ! 2 You said : We can never experience "world out there including ourown body" in itself, as absolute truth. Out where? Why can't we experience the body as truth? Is not almostentire humanity experiencing the body as Self? For what Scripturesare struggling, otherwise? How it is relative? Relative to what?Where is the Q of absolute or relative Truth in "experiencing" ? "Initself" means in " which self" ? What is "itself" ? 3 You said: We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which isConsciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). We know what as perception ? Who is knowing? Who is that "we"? Whatis IS-NESS ? Is it a state / attribute or the ONLY thing ? If it isan attribute then there must be an experiencer also ? If there is noexperiencer then of what avail are the statements made by you sofrequently such as "we experience, perceiver, perceived, we" etc ?How can consciousness ( chetana) in itself perceive? Perceive whatwhen there is nothing except that ONLY existing? 4 Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu,Consciousness, as we experience them inthe moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separateobjects. Who is the experiencer( We) ? Is there any or there is "IS NESSONLY" sans experiencer? How objects are same as IS NESS ? "THUS"means what? What have you stated in previous two/three sentences ormore which makes you to conclude that nature of objects is same asthat of "us" ? Too fast a conclusion , Sir ? Please state the basisfor such conclusion ! Can objects also experience or perceive ? Doobjects exist? If yes, then do they have same property as "we" (inyour words) have? If no, where is the Q their being ONE with wholeor having same property as "we" have ? Is "Consciousness" sentientor inert? Or neither of them? Where is the need for discriminationif both are sentient or both are inert ? Where is the need forScriptures- if both YOGA and BHOGA are same? 5 You said: Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? What is your view? Are they same? If yes, how? If no, why not? Ifperceived, perception, and perceiver are same, then how the Q oftheir being same or not arises? Where does it arise?In whom does it arise? If they are not same, how there is ONE only ? 6 So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. "Experientially" - of whose experience, Pratapji ? How you havesaid "essentially"? Is it so ? What makes them ONE experientially?Are we experiencing that? Is their any EXPERIENCER of that state ofIS NESS (existence) or not ? Yes or No !! Pratapji ! Consider me as Devil's Advocate only and respond so thatall may benefit - SATSANGA !! Beauty lies there !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------Dear Sadaks,Contemplate on Sant Jadabharat in Srimat Bagavath talking to kingRaguguna on palanquin,saying "Oh king Raguguna, for me the palanquin, you and me are oneand the same from same earth". Can Sadaks pass their views in crisp.If everything and anything is same, where comes the question of SriKrishna telling Arjuna to wage war with Kauravas. Here Arjuna is oneand the other is Kauravas. But essence of everything and anything iscorrect. HOW?Jai Sri KrishanaB.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!I really appreciate Mike and Shashikalaji for their feedback andresponse. It helps my own understanding really as it works as abooster shot! I relate to what Mike said while reading Ch 11 andappreciate it too in the same spirit.Let me answer the question raised by Shashikalaji! First of all myrespects to her as she was the instrumental in making me share thispost!In the beginning, we are told by Scriptures or Realized souls likeSwamiji, you are not body-mind-sense complex, you are sentient andthe world being inert. So disidentify with such objects as they areperishable while you are Imperishable Atman or Consciousness! Whendeeply contemplated, "you"(?) take your stand as Witnessing Presencewithin, relative to everything being witnessed(SakshiBhav). This isessential first step, The crown jewel of Discrimination(vivekchudamani) between what one is, Atman, Conscious Being, andeverything witnessed, and both are apart. That which isperceived/conceived(body-mind-world) is distinct from all PerceivingConsciousness or Awareness. However, this is still relative truthas you are witness only relative to witnessed!Now comes Vasudev Sarvam or SarvatmaBhav! As you may appreciate bylooking openly at our inner experience at the time of perceptions itis NEVER that of separate objects.It is one Wholeness because one sees so many objects and spacecontaining them including one's own body, all at once. This is as ifin a pitch dark room one sees only dense-mass of darkness, onecannot even see one's own body! All of a sudden light is turned onand one sees separate objects as if they are materialized fromoneness of darkness surrounding them. Similarly we separate andconceive objects when we think "this is chair, this is table, thisis another person, this is me etc. These very thoughts of ours havetime and space embaded in them(Actually Consciousness creates time-space through us) so they help conceive separate objects we arefamiliar with outside. Nevertheless, they are experienced assubjective thoughts of those objects which we think are outsideindependently, not true. Such thoughts are Consciousness shaped upas those objects in all our exoeriences, just as water is shaped aswaves in the ocean.In other words, an object has to be one with Consciousness in orderfor it to be experienced by us, Conscious Being! So all we reallyexperience is Consciousness itself as body-mind and world. There isnothing else in our experience other than Consciousness, Reality,ISNESS! This very Consciousness is Absolute Existence, oneHomogeneous mass, so to speak, experientially! IT is what weeseentially are, and It is not personal, is shared by each body-mind! As a matter of fact there is nothing personal in the entirecosmos! We are like a window for Absolute to see through us andenjoy ITSELF as World(leela)!This is Vasudev Sarvam! All there is is this Consciousness, Brahman!So when we say objects don't have existence, it means separateobjects don't exist as they appear to be independent of ourexistence, however, Absolute Existence or BEINGNESS never ceases tobe disguised as diversity, the meaning of BG Ch 2:16.No one has ever experienced world in itself, it has been alwaysthrough being Conscious and as Consciousness. In and of itselfeverything is ONE UNDIVIDED BEINGNESS which Consciousness!Thus we deal with relative objects based on how they appear in ourmiinds, likes and dislikes due to conditioned by such objects takenreal!However, with this understanding Relative world of objects arediscriminated properly as you have suggested, and the biggest helpis that we don't get attached to them and fall apart.Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari- Dear Pratap Bhatt, I read your article several times, and it made me think deeply, thatis really good. It reminded me of things I meditated on, discussedand even experienced and so on. My mind went to Bhagavad Gita Ch.11 the revelation of Lord Krishna'sSupreme form (Ishwara).Before I continue I would like to share something. I read the wholeof the chapter, I was in a very focused state of mind, as I read theHoly Gita, something happened, yes I was reading it in English, butthe language of it faded away, I felt as if I were right there in astrange way, I felt I was a privileged observer, the richness of thewhole thing was fixed in my mind, hmmm, thats the best way mystumbling words can put it.(Most inadequately). Getting back to Gitaji Ch 11, Arjuna saw Shri Krishna, who heconsidered to be a great friend, in an overpowering form, I presumeonly Arjuna witnessed this, or more correctly was given the gift toperceive Ishwara, his senses were confounded he was terrified, andthen of course the vision left him. A friend of mine who was a walking encyclopedia, said that 90% of allwe perceive is filtered out, otherwise we could not function.(I thinkI read that somewhere myself).My proviso is the focused mind can transcend these limitations, andthe most powerful focus one can have is the 'The Divine Beloved'. B.G. 1153. Neither by the Vedas, nor by austerity, nor by gift, nor bysacrifice, can I be seen in this form as you have seen me (soeasily). 54. But by single-minded devotion can I, of this form, be known andseen in reality and also entered into, Arjuna! With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor)--------------------------- Dear Sadaks,A ray of light has 9 colors. But we see it as white. A minute dot ofwater try on your computer screen, it will reflect nine colours. Thelight is one but has 9 colours within.Jai Sri KriahnaB.Sathyanarayan------------------------------Jai Hanuman Mr Bhatt ! You said :In summary objects experienced are one withConsciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Realityof "myself" and objectsare one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discriminationin dealing with them! Can you elaborate as to how considering reality of "What exists"(Self) and "what does not exist at all" (objects) - by consideringthem (existent and non existent) to be ONE in the beginningitself, "naturally guide me to discrimination/wisdom in dealing withthem" ? Say, If I consider myself and body tobe ONE in essence , how will I then discriminate? How the reality ofyourself and objects is the same/one ? Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita,relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant tomotivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group'sprimary aim of deeper understanding of Gita. FOR RESPONDER1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka'stime.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Shree HariRam Ram "Vasudeva SarvamEverything is Paramatma (God)" is the ultimate ofall knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this tobe "Vigyaan" and balance all to be "Gyaan" ! To understand /realize the depth of this topic, sadhaks will have to be crisp,precise in stating scriptures. This is not a topic of only wordsand debate. Therefore please kindly pose specific questions andspecific responses - crisply, concisely and precisely based onscriptures only.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! There have been many postings on the subject "Duties of householder...", so I chose this, sort of a new topic. It is to build onShashikalaji's comments on essence of "everything and anything" anduse of viveka. The essence of all things, in our experience is just ONE, UndividedConsciousness! We can never experience "world out there including ourown body" in itself, as absolute truth. We just know it asperceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS-NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). Thus perceived objects are madeup of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them inthe moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separateobjects. Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. We cancall it Vasudev, God, Atman, Paramatman, Reality, Consciousness orwhatever name. This is called Absolute Truth of all our experiences,the true I! In jainism, they have term "NischayNaya", I think.Soon after the perceptions, mind with memory, intellect, etc resolvesthe Wholeness into objects that we are familiar in practical life. Sofirst perceptions, and then conceptions of objects with names happenin our experience! Names and forms are thus relative truth. It ishere that we need to be guided by discrimination to have a properperspective for each such object, so we can all function in the worldof relativity. This is VyavaharNaya in Jainism, I think. When we deeply understand the Essence of all things, being ONEReality, Paramtman, without a second Reality of thusperceived/conceived objeccts, we can function without attachments andthereby without suffering. In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even aswaves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of "myself" and objectsare one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discriminationin dealing with them! Vedanta even goes on to say "knower of Brahman becomes Brahman",Brahman being the Reality, the Essence of all! Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt ---------------------------NEW POSTING Dear Sadhak,Such a beautiful satsang going on here. Every time I start writing, I felt a mum. I have no words to describe HIM...When we say "Vasudev Sarvam" , it creates a false notion of Vasudev and Sarvam, but in reality sarvam has no independent existence. Without Vasudev, where is sarvam ? Sarvam appears because Vasudev Exist.A sadhak starts his sadhna to reach his sadhya, but finally sadhna, sadhak and sadhya becomes one and only One.Our mind creates the world by accepting time, space and causation, observes and enjoys its creation, co-exist with its creation and finally drops itself when feels-ab mein nacho bahut Gopala. Mind is inert still due to presence of Self, it becomes capable doing all this(as due to presence of the Sun, the beautiful drama is going on at the earth).Its like a child build a fort of sand at seashore, plays and enjoys it, and finally leaves or destroys it whenever he wants to, and runs back to his mother's lap.Without Light, there is no lighted. Light is absolute while lighted is relative. The One Truth spoken and described in many ways by all of us. Superb.........with Love,a sadhikaSadhna Karigar -------- Dear Divine, Pranam. Yes, light travels faster than sound and what Sathyanarayanji is saying is true from scientific point of view is also true but if you read Upanishads, even the Bible, it shows in which order this world got created - first came the sound - AUM, then came sky, air, light, water and last came earth (BG 7:4). Now the question is did sound come 1st that's why vibration happened and this friction caused light? Or the vibration happened first and this friction caused sound and light? Or like what Sathyananrayanji said light came 1st to cause vibration and sound? OR all happened at once? So is God, all pervading darkness from where creation starts and dissolves? I would make an attempt to explain unexplainable (what Mikeji asked in different message...). I am gross body. prior to it I existed as strong samskars/habits - mind/intellect/memory. prior to it i existed as vaasanas/desires/thoughts. prior to it I existed as words. prior to it I existed as letters/alphabets. prior to it i existed as just a sound without alphabets and that was AUM. prior to this I existed as space (condition needed for sound to travel is space). And prior to this sound, I existed as pure Consciousness!!! Is pure consciousness equals light? If it is sound and vibrations are also part of pure consciousness. And prior to that nothing exist then is it pure darkness? Have fun contemplating... humble regards, always at Thy so Loving, Divine & Mysterious Feet Manjula Patel ------ Dear Sadhak's,Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? asks Sri Pratabji. Yes, possible.Once one sees Perceiver, he can see perceived also, as perceived has come from perceiver. Example: Recent times- Ramana Rishi left his home while studying 8th sandard. He found difficulty in read Wren and Martin book. He sat in cave 60 days, realized Bagavan Shiva. He wrote commentary on Geetha in Tamil. But he spoke of any text from 108 upnashids, vedas, the world, Maya etc. Ancient times-- Valmiki was thief and illiterate. Realized Ram Nam. Wrote wonderful scripts in Sanskrit. 16th centuary Sant Tukaram Abang says about the conscience what we all are talking off and it says that he and God are NOT two. In south India a sant called Vallalar- at age of 7 he left home. Sat in solitude like Buddha. He sang 5 scripts of Bagavan Shiva which is said in Tamil (5 Thirumurai) Realized GOD. Until then the whole Chidambaram temple authorities praised him. 6th Script he sang saying, "I am the most ignorant person, holding on to temples and idols. I could see all the world in Bagavan and Bagavan in the world". Sadaks that we are telling Vasudeva servam. We can see duallity the world and Bagavan, but we surely know the world is ever changing and Bagavan never changing. Sadaks this differance Bagavan Kurpa to show us, so that we negate world and hold on to Paramathuma. The real and unreal is revealed by Gyana then. So we live like dead irrespective of abuses or praises, wealth or poverty, death or existence of body,doing karma and social obligations without any attachment.Just for example: I was called to Guruvayur on Deepavalli day. My family felt bad. I told them that my existence is because of that Paramathuma and I have spent so many deepavali and what If I want to celebrate Deepavalli with Guruvayur Krishna. For Me home or temple is no differance." My family just kept quiet.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan ------- PRIOR POSTING HARE KRISHNA Krishna, in the joy of Loving, Showered His Blessings On Himself Bestowed on Himself the gift of Self- remembrance And, narinder was no more Only he was- - - - - Krishna - - - - Hare Krishna .... Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna , Hare Hare In the newly awakened Krishna consciousness Where-ever there was witnessing, seeing ..... Seeing through The mind's eye Or The Eye of the eye The Ear of the ear The Tongue of the tongue The Mind of the mind, Where so ever was the witnessing There was only Krishna everywhere In manifold manifestation ! In manifold manifestation Himself the witness Himself the winessing Himself the witnessed. Himself the rejoicing In Self - remembrance In the Self. Krishna - - - Hare Krishna ! Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna , Hare Hare AUM narinder bhandari--------- Dear Sadaks,Sri Manjulaji said so,"""we remain as light, vibration and sound, i.e., we are nothing but grossification of light, vibration and sound (hindi: ham jyoti, spandan aur dhwani ka hi ghat swaroop hain). Any one would like to share their thoughts?""".Again it is not light, vibration and sound. How? From light comes vibration, sound and solar energy. Small match stick when ignited by match box, one can hear a small sound. So in all cases of light, sound varies from the quantum of light. Say thunder, light comes first then the sound a little later. Light travels at 1,86,000 miles per second. Sound travels 1800 miles per second. Without light there is no sound or vibration, heat or energy Etc Light produces 8 properties, which matches with Astakshram Om Namo Narayanaya. So only ONE that Sri Vishnu/Narayana cause for everything and anything, but HE has NO cause.Sri Vishnu roopaya Shivaye. Sri Shiva roopaya Vishnuve.What Swamiji might has meant by saying you are the light not the lighted. Any lighting cause requires another source of fire, mode say Stick, matter say Ghee/oil. But the inner light Paramathuma, along with Jeeva and body illumines without source. That is you, you human. Now realize that light which can timeless exist with or without Jeeva and body. Please bear with these comments if I should be wrong.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan ----- PRIOR POSTING Vasudeva Sarvam It is YOU, Govinda, who weave The seven sounds Into the soundless Sound.YouWho swing the seven colours Into the Light of lights.LightThat pulsatesInThe soundless Sound.To create and sustainAn Existence so vastThatTime and SpaceFind themselves impotentTo suppress or express!And I Pure IntelligenceConsciousness,EnergyChangeless Unmoving,Do yetCreate Sustain and DestroyThe Three WorldsOnceEvery twenty- four hours!And choose to play the GameOf the Seeker and the SoughtOf the Dancer dancingEven when the DanceCries outTo beONE with the DancerIn Repose. HE ALONE PREVAILS He prevails! he prevails! he alone Who , yesterday , did prevailTomorrow, too will prevail He aloneFor whom all yesterdays are the Light of His eyesAnd tomorrows, the Laughter of His beingHe, who Himself is All yesterdays All tomorrows¦ And that which lies between¦.Ah ! The tyranny of the Mind That chooses to play in time In yesterdays, today and morrows While Eternity of This Moment Now laughs and laughsNo yesterday ever was, Beloved, nor morrows ever existAnd Today ?Ah ! Guess again ! If yesterday is the mist of memoryTomorrow, the cloud of imaginationToday ?Does today Exist. Is there any Today at all ! Reject Time Shun yesterdays and morrows And be ever Free of Today and Time¦ And beyond Time, beyond yesterdays, today and morrowsBlissfully enjoy the dream The Dream that is the Gift of Time Memory and imaginationWhich is This Moment Now .AUM narinder bhandari------------------------- Divine All. Pranams. Very beautiful message by Swamiji. There is no doubt about us being light and not the lighted one. Few weeks back, this thought/click/dawning happened that between Pramatma and us in our gross form (includs body, mind, intelluct and memory), we remain as light, vibration and sound, i.e., we are nothing but grossification of light, vibration and sound (hindi: ham jyoti, spandan aur dhwani ka hi ghat swaroop hain). Any one would like to share their thoughts? I agree Vyasji, Yoga Vashsitha is a jem of all jems!!! If one really understands it, one will know that nothing actually exist!!! humble regards, always at Thy Mayaavi Feet Manjula Patel--------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Here is the Ultimate Subject, The LIGHT of all lights. Pujya Swamiji's most profound message yet!This Light is what we ARE, not what is lighted, the body-mind-world! See it is not theoretical at all, is our experience as these words are written and read! Please, please!Swamiji says once this discrimination between Vasudeva, the Light, the imperishable, and Sarvam, the lighted, the perishables takes place, Realization of Vasudeva Servam also takes place! What it means that lighted objects considered as separate objects are perishables due to their existence in time-space causality, but when Lighted are see as One totality(which is our innermost experience), they are ONE Light, Non-dual! Our problem is we give thus lighted and illumined objects reality and get attached or resist them, while the Illuminator, the Only Reality, ISNESS gets IGNORED!Then he says: "There is nothing to be done. There is no description of this experience. It simply IS. Absolute stillness." Note here as he says, no description, only EXPERIENCE! In the vedantic text called Panchdashi, the entire chapter 10 "Natak Deepah" or "Lamp of the theater stage" is devoted to illustrate this point!This post is an expression of my appreciation, gratitude and Pranaam to Swamiji! I hope Sadhakas will be helped tremendously upon serious contemplation! Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt----------------- Hari Om Agreed Jee ! But theory has its own beauty, particularly when it emanates straight from Holy Scriptures. Oh ! What a bliss Yoga Vaashishtha brings to the Sadhak. The objects seen in dream were only creations of mind, where seen, seeing and seer- all was mind only. That is considered as the mind which is the form of the Infinite Principle (tattwa) of the Self, the all-powerful Supreme Spirit, created by its power of thought or will (sankalpa) ! The Supreme Consciousness, excited by the powers of movement in the form of space and time and pusuing imagination, attains to the position of grasping things. This vibration or movement is of the nature of imagination of objects. This Supreme Consciousness flows forth by itself, imagining objects which have gone beyond its nature. Itself having faded all around , it is enfeebled. That is considered as MIND. The Consciousness which is associated with objects imagined is declared as comprehension or grasping of ideas. That state of Consciousness which is intent on objects is considered as the sprout of imagination. Consciousness, thinking of objects perceived as if they are distinct from itself, attains to the state of imagination, like a seed attaining to the state of a sprout !! Vasudeva and the world are one and real. The One is existing as the Many and the whole appears not to be so. The Pure is spread as Impure. That which is not void (Paramatma) appears as void (world) and the void is manifested as non void. That which is large is like a thing which is not large and the one which is not expanded qppears like one expanded. That which is immutable appears LIKE ONE LIABLE TO CHANGE. The one which is equal and calm appears like one disturbed. The real one is INVISIBLE like a non existent thing. Only THAT has risen like one which is not THAT !! The undivided one appears like divided. THE ONE WHICH IS NOT INACTIVE HAS BECOME LIKE ONE WHICH IS INERT. Though unknowable, it appears as one having the nature of the known. Without parts, it is shining like one with parts. He who is not "I" appears like I. One without destruction appears as one which is perishable.Though free from Maya (illusion), it is like the stainless sun with a circular orb of illusory rays. Know that Brahman as the Lord of the Wise, as you know the great ocean as the lord of the waters !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---- Dear sadaks,Question: How to not see the world (inert, temporary), and instead see ONLY God ? (Sansaar ne dikhkar, kewal Paramatma Kaise dikhey?) May this be a little bit of message for clarity.Sukh Brama was walking away from his father Veda Vyas. His father was following his son. In a pond there were woman bathing clotheslines. As Sukh was walking along they never even bothered. But when his father Ved Vyas walking the woman raped themselves in clothes. Ved Vyas aasked these woman, "Why are you woman clothing looking at me? My son is teen ager and you woman neglect him. " Woman answered, ' Saint Vyasji it is your first cause that because you are asking this question, that is you see us and yourself as 2 objects. While Sukhji see the trees around, birds of air, prakurthi and us with NO differance. Sukhji see Sarvam Para Bramam. One and the only one. ''Sadaks, seeing, hearing, talking etc should not be attached in mind level as objects of pleasures. Eyes can see but mind should be tuned to Neti (Negate) the objects on earth, such that mind should cast eagerness to see Guru, Parents, Bagavan. Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Shri HariVery interesting idea "Light of all Lights" message from world to divinityRam Ram Pawan Singhal -------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Some posts of Sadhakas seemed theoretical to Shashikalaji! However, these posts echo Advaita Vedanta, a rare Gem of Seers of Truth! With all the respects, to some of us, this is the most practical as it addresses the ignorance at its core. There are many approaches to Truth, some simple and some not-so-simple depending upon sadhakas.Why not we share what we understand by putting them on this platform and let all take a look and decide for themselves with open mind. Many aspects of Gita and Swamiji's teachings are preparatory in nature to make us eligible to receive the Ultimate Subject, our true nature! For example, advice such as "don't get attached to world, give up doership/enjoyership, Don't think bad of anyone" etc find extraordinary meanings and get implemented naturally when one understands one is not an individual one thinks one is. All attachments are inherent in the individual, not in the world objects, as any separate entity finds the need to defend its interests at any cost even if its unfair to other such individuals. Strange as it may sound, we don't have any proof we are such autonomous individuals! "I am this body and so and so..." is just a false belief taken real, and we kill each other if we have to for this belief! Also the doer we assume ourselves to be is really the "skill, know-how, knowledge etc" stored as intellect that we identify with all our life without questioning, taking as I, the doer. See this intellect is also given to us! It is losing sight of this truth and keep trying to be free of doership. Seeing the truth of this liberates from doership while doing karmas! Otherwise we keep fighting to get rid of perceived doer with believed doer!Neti, Neti approach is not just talk, nor complex! We make it complex by not giving it a try!In this approach, we are asked to see that anything and everything known by mind is defined in space-time imposing attributes, etc thus making them limited, and therefore, it cannot be Iti, Iti or Vasudeva being Unlimited!Upon deep understanding, mind gives up all attempts to hold THAT, naturally, and thus in the emptiness of such mind Vsudeva invites Himself in and takes the reins of that carriage becoming its charioteer!The point is that if our mind is simple enough like that of famous Bhaktas, like Meera, Devotion path may sound simple, and if we are given to inquiry, let it be so! Ultimately its the mind that needs to be Silent on its own as it cannot be made silent by dismissing it when it wants to know answers! Samadhan - "Understanding with satisfaction" plays a major role in silence of the mind than even Samadhi, if mind is asking and asking!Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om That which is constant at the beginning and the end is called Real. What is Real at the beginning and end, is only real when existing at present. What doesn't exist at the beginning and the end, is so at the present also. Of what nature could the reality be, of a thing that does not exist at the beginning and the end? There is no destruction at any time of that which exists. The delusion of the world is of the mind. It is neither Real nor Unreal ! It is not born; and it has risen like a conjuring trick, (causing illusory perceptions) of a number of minds. The same illusion may be seen by a number of persons due to illusion. Therefore, this objective world is not real at any time; nor is it unreal. It is neither real nor unreal as the delusion of a snake in a rope. It has risen like the illusion of dreams and shines like a false idea. The wealth of magic constituting the world is very much exhibited or spread here by mind, as a moving wave, though unreal, is exhibited by a river caused by heat (mirage), as if it were real. Unreal on account of its instability and real on account of its appearance or perception, the world WHICH IS A PROJECTION OF THOUGHT, is of the nature of both reality and unreality as a dream is. As pearl necklaces, feathers of peacock's tail, balls of hair and the like seen in the sky are unreal, but have become reality for those WITH A DEFECTIVE VISION, so, the world appears to those with defective vision. This is only unreality resembling reality and is an appearance. It is uncreated, yet experienced ! It is not Real but EXISTS as reality. Next: Firm Belief of Mind (Sankalpa) Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Beautiful are Expressions of Truth, Itself remaining INEXPRESSIBLE!Many are its Manifestations, Itself remaining ONE Unmanifest!The Essence of Everything and Anything and Nothing!It is heartening to read posts by Vyasji, Nagaji, Narinderji, Moderatorji, Mike, Sathyanarayanji, all sharing the same Wisdom in their own ways! I shared the same understanding hoping it answered Vyasji's tough questions, though not as eloquently!It is a real joy to get booster shots! I thank you all sadhakas! Consciousness, THAT, SELF, THE ABSOLUTE, BELOVED KRISHNA of BG ALL ONE REALITY, DIVINITY! Vasudeva in guise of everything and anything!As Vyasji put it, This is the ultimate subject!To that I would add: And That ultimate Subject is "I". That Sat-Chit-Anand appears(feels/thinks) as "I", the body-mind, I call "me/mine", you call "you/yours", we call "us/ours"! What a trick the magician is playing!Let us unfold it, right now, not later!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt --Jai Hanuman I don't believe in 'theoritical' types of talks. Swamiji also insisted upon simple down to earth conduct. Vyasji appears to be in theoritical mode suddenly. Ok ! He has right to do so ! May be that is necessary too ! But to my mind, practical is more important. Hence here is practical talk on the subject. There are 2 things. Read last Sadhak Message of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj . One- BG 2:16 ! Two- BG 7:19 ! How to 'realise' - Vasudeva Sarvam- BG 7:19 ? Every thing is 'thou and thou' only ! How ? How?? Don't understand any one to be bad ! Don't do bad to any one !! Don't wish bad for any one !!! If you see any one indulging in evil thoughts/ deeds/ desires- think : God is playing as per Time - Kaliyuga !! Conduct yourself carefully- as per order of God- BG 2:47 ! But from inside your heart never consider any one to be bad ! Enough Jee ! Enough !! Why to be so complex? Be that, if that helps complexity loving Sadhaks ! Why this 'NETI ..NETI' lecture? There is ONLY one existing. 'NETI NETI' is BG 2:16 ! Sure ! But is BG 7:19 clear? NETI NETI ! Why such big talk? Baba ! Simple ! Do objects seen in dream exist in reality ? No ! So long as dream was there, they 'appeared' real ! Where are they now? Who made/ created them? MIND Jee, Mind ! Throw mind into the dust bin ! Where is the world now ? Where are objects ? What NETI NETI ? Why ? Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala --- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om On the subject of Vasudeva Sarvam (7:19) or Nasato Vidyate Bhavah (2:16)- main Qis how objects / world do not exist at all? Do we not directly experience theworld ? How to negate that? The fact is that this world is the expansion of Brahman. The triple world iswithin consciousness. Brahman alone appears as the world. The universe createdby Brahma is mental. Brahma has a body consisting only of thought. Hence Brahmais known in the Scriptures as Cosmic Mind. The imagination of objects is of thenature of mere appearance or illusion of Absolute Consciousness. That indeed is described by the word Jeeva ( embodied/individual soul) which isthe natural throb of the pure sky of Consciousness. As there is movement of wind, the hotness of fire or the coldness of ice, so there is Jeevahood of the Self. That Self Principle ( or the Absolute Consciousness) , which is not limited byspace, time etc takes a body held in space and time, through its own power andONLY OUT OF SPORT ! ( Ekaki na ramate ). The Self is spontaneously perceived ,as if it were another, only by itself. When Self produces the energy calledthinking ( or imagination) like wind its power of motion, then, the universalSelf becomes the mind consisting of grasping of thoughts, appearing as it weredifferently, manifesting its form of its own accord. THUS , THE ABSOLUTE CONSCIOUSNESS, IMAGINING ITSELF AS DIFFERENT BY NATURE, GOESAS IT WERE TO THE STATE OF OTHERNESS BY ITSELF , IN THE FORM OF ITS OWN ERROR (i e , such imagination). As the same man indeed becomes another in a moment on account of anger , so, theone of the nature of Pure Consciousness , has gone to the state of otherness,having the stain of error/imagination. For him who considers this collection of rays of solar light as different fromthe Sun, this is indeed different, as it were, from the Sun !!! (Other examples-Gold/Bracelet; Water/Wave; Fire/flame; ) To be contd. In the meantime let there be deliberations/focussed and brief onthe subject / material shared so far. Even Moderators have requested ALL Sadhaksto whole heartedly participate. I will answer each and every question on thesubject. Start asking Qs (on shared material) as I continue taking thedeliberations forward. This is ULTIMATE subject ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B-------------------------------There is nothing else besides Vasudeva, is this sentiment that Bhagwaan hasexpressed mainly for a bhakta (loving devotee)? If you want me to answer this question … "The Truth is everything" is the fact -no matter whether it is told or not, whether it is told to somebody or everybodyor nobody, whether anybody receives it or not, whether anybody accepts it ordisputes it … the very statement covers everything with absolutely noexceptions. But, one who receives the message earnestly is invariably a Bhaktain essence. Isn't so? THAT does not address anybody in particular ... yet,anybody, no matter what, is elligible and capable of approaching THAT! NETI means "anything is not THAT" ... it does not mean "THAT is not anything".THAT is anything and everything. But, nothing can be THAT in isolation as TheTruth cannot be multiple. This results in Mano Naasha (annihilation ofsubjective identity) - that is what I tried to mean in the beginning of myoriginal utterances. But, an individual cannot fathom what THAT means thanks to its self-rooted,self-promoted and self-protected confinement camps called identities. The fellowhelplessly insists the images collected as its identities as "the only reality".It does not mean that The Truth could be excluded even in such ignorance - THATincludes everything without saying. But, the ignorant cannot fathom thewonderful experience of the Universal Presence as it cannot break open itscocoons of ignorance in terms of its beleifs and doubts, desires and fears, andlikes and dislikes. The only way to entice the ignorant to break open itscocoons is to suggest the opposite (NETI) of its beliefs rather strongly. Whenthe deeprooted beliefs are negated strongly, there is a positive chance that onewould look into one's self-proclaimed identities to come out with ajustification. As every image that the ignorant brings out in support, "TheNETI" stands against smashing the images one after the other burning down theignorance hoarded in terms of the images within. When all the images areannihilated, one can experience The Absolute. Unless the individual can fathombeyond the cocoons of beliefs, "Vasudevah Sarvam", The Absolute remains a notionin one's mind. NETI helps breaking all the beliefs helping us attain The Truth. When "NETI" hints upon The Truth, then, "NETI" means "NOT JUST THIS" and not"NOT THIS" … as we apply such an appreciation in our lives, Vasudeva blooms toITS infinitude breaking all the barriers we have gathered. This results in AatmaBodha (Universal Awareness). That is what I tried to mean later in my originalutterances. Anything IS THAT, but anything trapped in a perceived domain is NOT - meaning,"do not limit your appreciation to anything as such … let it flow freelyencompassing the whole universe and beyond … do not confine yourself to anyfigment even if it is the whole universe itself … then, there is an opportunityto witness The Vasudeva, The Lord of All. In fact, "Vasudevah Sarvam" itself is a discriminative notion that is requiredtill the contradictions of real and unreal loom around in one's existence. Once,all the unreal is mitigated, real does not make sense either. Just like "You areeating" is a meaningless statement to the one who is already eating, "VasudevahSarvam" is a meaningless statement to a Prahlada who is already THAT. As Swamijisays, such a natural presence wherein both real and unreal loose their dominionsis "Vasudevah Sarvam" (REFER below). Om Tat Sat! Respects.Naga Narayana. Excerpts from "Sahaja Nivritti" from Sadhan Sudha Sindhu: Asat ko satta denese hee nivritt (sahaja-nivritt) aur praapt (swatah-praapt) -ye do vibhag kahe jaate hai. Asatko satta na de to na nivritt hai, na praapthai, pratyut sattamaatr jyon-ki-tyon hai. Dusare shabdon me, jabtak asatki sattahai, tabtak vivek hai. Asatki satta mitneper vivek hee tattvagnyaanme parinat hojaata hai; kyonki jab asatki satta hai hee nahi, to phir sat hee shesh rahega.Iseeko Geetane "Vasudevah Sarvam" kahaa hai. The distinction between the real (the ever-attained) and the unreal (theever-departing) remains only because one provides importance to the unreal. Oncethe unreal becomes insignificant in one's perception, there is neitherattainable nor unattainable, but mere presence as such. In other words, thediscrimination is present (and required) only till there are traces of theunreal. Once the unreal is annihilated at its core, the same discriminationmatures into realization because, when there is no unreal at all, everything isnothing but the mere presence of all, The Truth, The Sat. This is referred to as"Vasudevah Sarvam" in the Bhagavadgita. PS: Original Hindi version is given, in case, there is any misgivings in itsenglish version. Respects. Naga. --------------------------------Dear Sadaks,Everything is that a worldly man desires. No matter how much wealth, fame, onemay have but a little more. A millionaire, then a multimillionaire, 1st richestman on earth Etc.Anything is for realized one. Anything on earth is Vasudev Swaroop-Poornathuvam, nothing beyond and permanent. So the Gyani cannot have 2 differentthings, he sees Vasudeva Sarvam.Ordinary man sees another person Mr/Mrs X by looks, by his dress, by his wealthEtc. But Gyani sees the same Mr.X inside that illumines is Paramathuma. All theexternal features of Mr.X is unseen.Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan------------------------------- THE NATURE AND EXPERIENCE OF ISNESS ( The essence ) One day, of Krishna , Govinda, Satguru, I asked,O KrishnaGovinda, my Love,Satguru, my Being, pray let me know,What is Realisation?Realisation, answered Krishna , is the IS-NESS of all that ISAnd Beloved, implored within me, What is my IS-NESS ?I cannot say, I cannot tell,Govinda smiled, But IS-NESS happened, it just happened !The Gift of my SatguruAndTime was no more,Nor Space,Nor speech, nor silence,Only ISNESS.In the Eternity of the MomentThe giving of the GiftThe receiving of the GiftNo Giver, No Reciever,Only ISNESS. In the Eternity of the MomentSilence that IS.In the Eternity of the MomentThe Soundless Sound.In the Eternity of the MomentThe One Word.In the Eternity of the MomentThe expansion of the Word, The Vedas.In the Eternity of the MomentAll movement, the World, the Universe.In the Eternity of the MomentTotal stillness, Void,Full-ness absolute.In the Eternity of the MomentOnly IS-NESS.Only IS-NESS, just Is-ness!Only the Giving, only the ReceivingSans Giver, Sans ReceiverOnly IS-NESS.Only IS-NESSOnly gratitudeOnly Loving, choiceless lovingOnly One-ness, Not- two-ness foreverOf the seeker and his Guru, ONlY IS-NESS. AUMnarinder bhandari---------------------------PRIOR POSTING Q: When there is nothing else besides Vasudeva, then where is thequestion of IS NOT? is unclear.... I agree ... there is no room for "IS NOT" ever. THAT IS CORRECT. TheAsat by its very nature is "unreal" and hence "non-existent" on itsown. How can a non-existent be anything at all?! That is nothing butnothing!! The "IS NOT" is just a figment of our imagination when we try tocontain everything that we perceive within the boundaries of ourcognition. The very presence of "IS NOT" just reminds us that we areNOT in The Vignyaana but trapped within our cognitive dependence.Till cognitive dependence rules, whatever perceived DOES NOT LOOK LIKE "SAT",THE REAL to a true seeker - because, the cognition keepschanging the perceived perpetually. It is in this context, all thewise saints say "NETI" ... "IS NOT" is a necessity for seeking Truthtill Asat leaves no traces in our presence. That is the onlyfool-proof way of realizing our ignorance in believing the limitedcognitive perception itself as "the reality". Once the Asat ismitigated encore, ONLY SAT stays, ONLY VIGNYAANA remains, ONLY TRUTHprevails. Applying the essence of appreciation backwards in our dailylife, one would then say that "the so-called Asat" is also THATalone.That means, "The Asat" is non-existent whether we acknowledge or not.Such an understanding can come only after attaining the Tattva. To start with ... under dominion of the discrimination anythingperceived cannot be THE COMPLETE as the preception leaves outinfinitude beyond itself. But once The Absolute is attained, THATalone is prevalent in everything. The very notion of the Asat ismitigated encore and hence one need not verify anything as Satanymore. My most favorite example for this is from Swamiji("Bhagavattattva" in Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga): For a mundane person, the Asat is as crisp and clear as a solid linedrawn on a solid rock (NETI is extremely necessary here).For a truthful seeker of truth, in the beginning, it becomes like aline drawn on sand (Still NETI remains important for progress).For a truth seeker in whom the wisdom has bloomed, its is like a linedrawn on water (NETI fades away as the SAT prevails).For a Tattvagnya who is permanently established in The Vignyaana thatSwamiji refers to, the Asat, the unreal is truly as unreal andillusive as a line drawn in space ... IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST! Thenwhere is the question of IS NOT when we contemplate on "VaasudevahSarvam"? You are right ... then ... "IS NOT" is absolutelyirrelevant; IS alone is relevant as well as prevalent. As you correctly pointed out in your note, most of us (at least I amclear about myself) are NOT EVEN FIT to talk about THAT as I amnowhere near THAT ... ONLY REALIZED ONES such as Swamiji can talk onsuch matter. However, if I have to contemplate on such an idea, I AMBOUND TO BE TRUTHFUL TO THE IDEA RECEIVED IN AS MUCH CLARITY ANDTRANSPARENCY AS POSSIBLE - THAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY. As Swamiji sayswhile teaching us how to apply discrimination ("Vibhaga Yoga", inSadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga), we should adapt the truthfulappreciation that we perceive in the realized ones truthfully ... atleast while contemplating on THAT if not all the time! That is my limited understanding on this. If you want more, I amafraid, the only way is to invoke The Swamiji and such realized onesin our contemplation ... it is a wonderful journey of perpetualremoval of the debris (the unreal) hoarded within ... That is all Ican share on this ... Thank You. Respects. Naga Narayana--------------------------Shree HariRam Ram Nagaji, you say - wise saints say "NETI" ... "IS NOT" is a necessity for seekingTruth. Does that mean "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19), "I am Being (sat,real) and Non-being (asat, unreal) both." There is nothing else besidesVasudeva, is this sentiment that Bhagwaan has expressed mainly for a bhakta(loving devotee)? Sarvottamji,Swamiji has spoken to you about Vasudeva Sarvam, can you provide your insightson what is meant by "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19). All sadhaks welcome toshare on Gita 9:19. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------------------------- Thank you, Naga Narayana jee............ ISNESS narinder bhandari---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING "Vasudeva SarvamEverything is Paramatma (God)" is the ultimate ofall knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this tobe "Vigyaan" and balance all to be "Gyaan" ! What a wonderful statement! We most often jump aroundconsidering "Gnyaana" itself as "Vignyaana"!! Brihadaaranyaka(4.2.12) makes an acute observation on this. Yagnyavalkya concludesthat, "No gnyaana can ever be present in Moksha". Everything is THATVIGNYAANA alone. He calls IT "Vignyaanaghana" - purest essence ofall intelligence. We often get carried away by our informativerelational rationale to address the same. Vasudeva includes everything ... there is no room outside Him. Pl.refer to Vishwarupa Darshana Yoga. HE includes Duryodhana and thegang as much as the Yudhishthira and the gang. HE includes the mostpowerful of all as much as the weakest of all. HE includes therichest as much as the poorest. No parameter in any dimension canever outrange HIM! The discrimination and rationale can rule onlythe domain of Gnyaana ... not The Vignyaana. Again, it is an opinion projected through the mechanism ofGnyaana ... therefore, pl. treat it just that way. Respects. Naga Narayana---------------------------- MEW POSTING Vasudevah Sarvam - The Essence of ALL The essence of everything is THAT, The Absolute. The Matter IS THAT, but some matter trapped in a perceived body isNOT. The Energy IS THAT, but some energy trapped in a packet of matter is NOT.The Action IS THAT, but an action trapped in a packet of matter andenergy is NOT.The Thought IS THAT, but a thought trapped in an action is NOT.The Experience IS THAT, but an experience trapped in a thought isNOT.The Happiness IS THAT, but a happiness trapped in an experience isNOT. The Essence of all the joys ISThe Essence of all the experiences ISThe Essence of all the thoughts ISThe Essence of all the actions ISThe Essence of all the bodies ISThe Essence of all the energy ISThe Essence of all the matter IS... ... ...The essence of anything IS... ... ...The essence of everything ISThe Essence of ALL.The Absolute.The Truth. Vasudevah Sarvam. Respects.Naga Narayana--------------------------Shree HariRam RamNaga Narayanaji, Some further clarity needed on second note. IfEverything is Vasudeva (Gita 7:19), then is there a "is Not" assuch? "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19), "I am Being (sat, real) andNon-being (asat, unreal) both." When there is nothing else besidesVasudeva, then where is the question of IS NOT? is unclear....From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram-------------------------- Sadhakas, Namaste!It is a great privilege to be part of this wisdom platform sharingwith each other and learning along the way by bringing inexperiences in light of scriptural injunctions or pointers fromspiritual teachers! As Vyasji put it, then, we can have moremeaningful deliberations.With deep respects and divine friendship, I would answer thequestions posed by Vyasji as best as I can through the words. Itwill be better to break them in different posts.1. How can we experience undivided Consciousness at the outset?We do experience as such, it is just not noticed that way.Consciousness appears to be divided as many objects, split secondlater, after initial perception. Consciousness cannot be divided,only seems to be so like a movie characters seem to divide ONElight. Attraction for the seen objects distracts us from the non-divisible SEER of all objects!If one notices one doesn't see a particular object initially, onesees as if the view in front of our eyes is totally enveloped in thespace surrounding it, as if in the ocean of space, we see waves offorms, upon initial perceptions by senses as raw sensations. Thisocean of space itself is in the ocean of Consciousness, so to speak,as only a Conscious Being can perceive such space. However, thoughtarises "I see a chair there". Notice, when this is said, the time ofinitial perception is elapsed, so our recognizing a particularobject is in time-space fabric, an integral part of the thought "Isee a chair", chair being from past memory! By the time werecognize, it is already past, as all such thoughts are. We cannever know the separate objects without such thoughts and when weknow they are past. Object-thoughts are like waves in the Ocean ofConsciousness, so all objects including body we call ours arethoughts-Consciousness in our actual experience. The statement "Isee a chair" is not our experience in this sense, but isconceptualization of wholeness of experience for the sake oflanguage. Only seeing which is being conscious of, is experiential,I-thought as individual is identification with body-mind ofConsciousness and Chair-thought is memory. THAT Which isexperiential is always with us, and is Consciousness Itself, whereas experiences of objects as thoughts are fleeting!It is, as though, from Totality of view in front of us, we areextracting each object by offering it space and time to exist in ourthoughts-mind, in what seems to be division into many objects.Please see this fact: our thoughts manifest objects! When we are notconscious of objects, they remain non-manifest as in deep sleep!As this part of our experience is not noticed and deeplycontemplated upon, we see only separate objects and forgetting thatseparate objects are in mind as thoughts in terms of words(namesbeing time dimension and shape being space dimension).Also it is to be noticed that these objects are Consciousness ofthem, totally subjective in nature because objects don't participatein our re-cognition of them. No objects tells us what it is, only wecall them this or that. If we call cat a dog, or dog a cat, nothinghappens to them intrinsically. In otherwords, dog is true onlyrelative to everything else we know that is "not dog-like". Thus allnames are dependent on our agreement to call them as such so we canfunction and discriminate relatively, it is just a pragmatism only.A dog or any name for that matter is not absolute truth of theobject as referred to by that name. In absolute Truth everythinghas to be undivided, and nameless ONE which we call Existence, Is-ness intrinsic to all objects, and is referred to as SELF, Atman inthe context of sentient beings meaning Existence that knows Itself,self-evident Light of Consciousness, Being is "consciousness ofbeing" and consciousness is "being". Sat is Chit and Chit is Sat andis everyone's experience all the time even if not noticed as in deepsleep! And "we" are THAT Absolutely!This is Vedanta proclamation!PS: Consciousness as I used it above is THAT Absolute Existencewhich perceives through each body-mind all objects, while ITSELFremaining non-perceivable ever through senses and mind. However, itis ever present, deep rooted PRESENCE in us of Existence by whichall else is known. IT is the ultimate Knowingness! It is our True I,we, they, all such pronouns, we use for ourselves, but are taken asindividuals.Finally all such words including Consciousness too are concepts, butuseful to point to TRUTH, which can only be pointed to our BEING-NESS!This may answer some questions, more later...Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!More on Vyasji's questions: Pardon me, I have to repeat some points,no choice!We cannot experience the world "out there", means the world we thinkis external to us by thinking our body ends at the surface of outerskin. The world and body appear in our Consciousness as perceptions,so we only experience our perceptions of world, and body."Body" is name given to being conscious of sensations, feelings ofpains, discomforts, sensual pleasures etc, Such body is "my body" isalso due to identification with such feelings and sensations callingit "me", and is thus not experiential.If all these are seen as appearances in Consciousness, and knowinglyidentify with Consciousness as I, the seer of all that is "seen",the discrimination happens. Next the world and body experiencedinwardly is found to be consisting of Consciousness only. Then onecan say "I am not this body, but this body, along with all otherbodies, are in "ME" as Consciousness, All bodies are mine! This iswhat Vasudevah Sarvam to me. This is because anything oneexperiences is at once at a zero distance from Consciouseness!Our connection to the apparent world and body is only through thisConsciousness, Chaitanya! For instance, a thought about a chairoriginates, is sustained and dissolves in us without ever touchingthe outside chair! So chair we experioence is chair-thought only,not the chaor in itself!Everything as a whole is Divine SELF, not an individual body takenexclusively as mine! The body, mind and the World are in ME asKrishna says, but I am not in them if taken as individual objects.Now the real outside world in and of itself cannot be named asseparate objects, because then it is from the mind-names-forms only.This nameless reality is Brahman, The absolute, THAT, Ishwara, orwhatever name we give,is in reality nameless or all names are only HIS names! IF we nameobjects, then, from mind only we can do so, and thus ones isrelative to others. No named object can stand on its own leg asabsolute truth, it needs the legs of others to stand and validateit. Oneness is Reality of experience and the separate objects areconcepts and thus to be discriminated for what its worth based onpragmatism!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt-------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Meditation continues in the form of answers to Vyasji's questionswith deep appreciation!Hopefully last two posts with this one cover most of the remainingones from no 3 onward!When I refer to we or I or any pronouns it means Consciousness orAtman that we are, the only Reality. However, we need to refer to usindividually for communication purpose and many practical reasons.In this spirit it is Consciousness as Sadhakas are questioning andanswering!Anything we know is Consciousness knowing Itself only becauseultimate Knower is THAT as us, and what is known are appearances assuch made up of thoughts as mind and feelings as bodily sensations,all perceived objects!Consciousness-Atman is the experience of Conscious Existence,indwelling Presence, Isness, and is self evident, no other knowerneeded to know this Presence or ISNess.It is not a state, or attribute. It is what it IS! As said before,It perceives only Itself as undivided(God sees everything God only,to God there is not everything else). This is said to emphasize theself-effulgence, self-luminous aspect, not attribute. ThisPerception is the whole and not time-space bound so it is notcreated, nor destroyed. However, when we separate It as objects byconceiving through thoughts in time-space fabric, specific objectthus conceived can end in time, but its Beingness cannot bedestroyed as it belongs to Totality from which it emerged and intowhich it dissolves!When I use "We perceive", I mean we as Consciousness perceives andendows mind to conceive objects so that Leela can go on! We manifesteverything out of ONE thing by conceiving through mind this Totalityjust as spider weaves web out of itself and then winds it in itself!This is our freedom to be Individual too!Can another object perceive? no, object itself is perceived. OnlyConsciousness being chaitanya perceives.By Perception, I mean raw sensations-data that sense-complex in thepresence of Atman seems to produce as Consciousness of ????.Conception is what I call perceptions resolved as objects with mind-intellect and when such mind assumes itself as knower, it isEGO/Jeeva, considering it as separate reality of beig subject apartfrom Real KNOWER!Nature of objects perceived/conceived are thus experienced by usonly as Consciousness, but we equate such objects with outsideobjects for which we have no direct knowledge. We only experienceour perceptions of the world which are subjective only, never theworld itself! In otherwords, world cannot be perceived independentof Consciousness in our experience!The way I use "experience" is that it is discrete, has beginningwith objects perceived as thoughts/feelings and end only to replacewith another such objects. "Experiential" to me, is that which iscontinuous, never begins or ends, is subjective in nature but freeof attributes of pairs of opposites, shines attributes-gunas ofobjects, always present as background or substratum of allappearances. It is Consciousness that IS or Brahman!Perceived and Perceiving Consciousness-Atman are same in the sensethat waves are perceived while ocean is perceiving Itself. For thepurpose of Leela, play, or Maya principle Consciousness forgets andconsiders appearances as Real until It chooses to end the game insome apparent birth and returns Home apparently as It never leftHome! Maya is not a problem, to consider it as Real is the problem!I think these answers questions on the path starting with oneself toreach ONE SELF, from SakshiBhav to SarvatmBhav, from "me" to ME,from personal being to Impersonal BEING and finally feel VasudevSarvam!I remain open to further dialogues!Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt-PRIOR POSTINGHari Om Pratapji ! I am sorry inspite of making efforts , I could notunderstand a lot of your Article. Hence I humbly seek elucidation byyou on the first part of your article.. That should make thedeliberations more productive, and fruitful, at least morecomprehensible. I seek your forgiveness for being of dullerintellect. Hope you will bless me with answers : 1 How do you say at the outset that we all areexperiencing "undivided consciousness"? Are we really ? I thought weare experiencing 'individual consciousness' only whichmeans 'divided' and not 'undivided' ! 2 You said : We can never experience "world out there including ourown body" in itself, as absolute truth. Out where? Why can't we experience the body as truth? Is not almostentire humanity experiencing the body as Self? For what Scripturesare struggling, otherwise? How it is relative? Relative to what?Where is the Q of absolute or relative Truth in "experiencing" ? "Initself" means in " which self" ? What is "itself" ? 3 You said: We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which isConsciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). We know what as perception ? Who is knowing? Who is that "we"? Whatis IS-NESS ? Is it a state / attribute or the ONLY thing ? If it isan attribute then there must be an experiencer also ? If there is noexperiencer then of what avail are the statements made by you sofrequently such as "we experience, perceiver, perceived, we" etc ?How can consciousness ( chetana) in itself perceive? Perceive whatwhen there is nothing except that ONLY existing? 4 Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu,Consciousness, as we experience them inthe moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separateobjects. Who is the experiencer( We) ? Is there any or there is "IS NESSONLY" sans experiencer? How objects are same as IS NESS ? "THUS"means what? What have you stated in previous two/three sentences ormore which makes you to conclude that nature of objects is same asthat of "us" ? Too fast a conclusion , Sir ? Please state the basisfor such conclusion ! Can objects also experience or perceive ? Doobjects exist? If yes, then do they have same property as "we" (inyour words) have? If no, where is the Q their being ONE with wholeor having same property as "we" have ? Is "Consciousness" sentientor inert? Or neither of them? Where is the need for discriminationif both are sentient or both are inert ? Where is the need forScriptures- if both YOGA and BHOGA are same? 5 You said: Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? What is your view? Are they same? If yes, how? If no, why not? Ifperceived, perception, and perceiver are same, then how the Q oftheir being same or not arises? Where does it arise?In whom does it arise? If they are not same, how there is ONE only ? 6 So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. "Experientially" - of whose experience, Pratapji ? How you havesaid "essentially"? Is it so ? What makes them ONE experientially?Are we experiencing that? Is their any EXPERIENCER of that state ofIS NESS (existence) or not ? Yes or No !! Pratapji ! Consider me as Devil's Advocate only and respond so thatall may benefit - SATSANGA !! Beauty lies there !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------Dear Sadaks,Contemplate on Sant Jadabharat in Srimat Bagavath talking to kingRaguguna on palanquin,saying "Oh king Raguguna, for me the palanquin, you and me are oneand the same from same earth". Can Sadaks pass their views in crisp.If everything and anything is same, where comes the question of SriKrishna telling Arjuna to wage war with Kauravas. Here Arjuna is oneand the other is Kauravas. But essence of everything and anything iscorrect. HOW?Jai Sri KrishanaB.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!I really appreciate Mike and Shashikalaji for their feedback andresponse. It helps my own understanding really as it works as abooster shot! I relate to what Mike said while reading Ch 11 andappreciate it too in the same spirit.Let me answer the question raised by Shashikalaji! First of all myrespects to her as she was the instrumental in making me share thispost!In the beginning, we are told by Scriptures or Realized souls likeSwamiji, you are not body-mind-sense complex, you are sentient andthe world being inert. So disidentify with such objects as they areperishable while you are Imperishable Atman or Consciousness! Whendeeply contemplated, "you"(?) take your stand as Witnessing Presencewithin, relative to everything being witnessed(SakshiBhav). This isessential first step, The crown jewel of Discrimination(vivekchudamani) between what one is, Atman, Conscious Being, andeverything witnessed, and both are apart. That which isperceived/conceived(body-mind-world) is distinct from all PerceivingConsciousness or Awareness. However, this is still relative truthas you are witness only relative to witnessed!Now comes Vasudev Sarvam or SarvatmaBhav! As you may appreciate bylooking openly at our inner experience at the time of perceptions itis NEVER that of separate objects.It is one Wholeness because one sees so many objects and spacecontaining them including one's own body, all at once. This is as ifin a pitch dark room one sees only dense-mass of darkness, onecannot even see one's own body! All of a sudden light is turned onand one sees separate objects as if they are materialized fromoneness of darkness surrounding them. Similarly we separate andconceive objects when we think "this is chair, this is table, thisis another person, this is me etc. These very thoughts of ours havetime and space embaded in them(Actually Consciousness creates time-space through us) so they help conceive separate objects we arefamiliar with outside. Nevertheless, they are experienced assubjective thoughts of those objects which we think are outsideindependently, not true. Such thoughts are Consciousness shaped upas those objects in all our exoeriences, just as water is shaped aswaves in the ocean.In other words, an object has to be one with Consciousness in orderfor it to be experienced by us, Conscious Being! So all we reallyexperience is Consciousness itself as body-mind and world. There isnothing else in our experience other than Consciousness, Reality,ISNESS! This very Consciousness is Absolute Existence, oneHomogeneous mass, so to speak, experientially! IT is what weeseentially are, and It is not personal, is shared by each body-mind! As a matter of fact there is nothing personal in the entirecosmos! We are like a window for Absolute to see through us andenjoy ITSELF as World(leela)!This is Vasudev Sarvam! All there is is this Consciousness, Brahman!So when we say objects don't have existence, it means separateobjects don't exist as they appear to be independent of ourexistence, however, Absolute Existence or BEINGNESS never ceases tobe disguised as diversity, the meaning of BG Ch 2:16.No one has ever experienced world in itself, it has been alwaysthrough being Conscious and as Consciousness. In and of itselfeverything is ONE UNDIVIDED BEINGNESS which Consciousness!Thus we deal with relative objects based on how they appear in ourmiinds, likes and dislikes due to conditioned by such objects takenreal!However, with this understanding Relative world of objects arediscriminated properly as you have suggested, and the biggest helpis that we don't get attached to them and fall apart.Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari- Dear Pratap Bhatt, I read your article several times, and it made me think deeply, thatis really good. It reminded me of things I meditated on, discussedand even experienced and so on. My mind went to Bhagavad Gita Ch.11 the revelation of Lord Krishna'sSupreme form (Ishwara).Before I continue I would like to share something. I read the wholeof the chapter, I was in a very focused state of mind, as I read theHoly Gita, something happened, yes I was reading it in English, butthe language of it faded away, I felt as if I were right there in astrange way, I felt I was a privileged observer, the richness of thewhole thing was fixed in my mind, hmmm, thats the best way mystumbling words can put it.(Most inadequately). Getting back to Gitaji Ch 11, Arjuna saw Shri Krishna, who heconsidered to be a great friend, in an overpowering form, I presumeonly Arjuna witnessed this, or more correctly was given the gift toperceive Ishwara, his senses were confounded he was terrified, andthen of course the vision left him. A friend of mine who was a walking encyclopedia, said that 90% of allwe perceive is filtered out, otherwise we could not function.(I thinkI read that somewhere myself).My proviso is the focused mind can transcend these limitations, andthe most powerful focus one can have is the 'The Divine Beloved'. B.G. 1153. Neither by the Vedas, nor by austerity, nor by gift, nor bysacrifice, can I be seen in this form as you have seen me (soeasily). 54. But by single-minded devotion can I, of this form, be known andseen in reality and also entered into, Arjuna! With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor)--------------------------- Dear Sadaks,A ray of light has 9 colors. But we see it as white. A minute dot ofwater try on your computer screen, it will reflect nine colours. Thelight is one but has 9 colours within.Jai Sri KriahnaB.Sathyanarayan------------------------------Jai Hanuman Mr Bhatt ! You said :In summary objects experienced are one withConsciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Realityof "myself" and objectsare one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discriminationin dealing with them! Can you elaborate as to how considering reality of "What exists"(Self) and "what does not exist at all" (objects) - by consideringthem (existent and non existent) to be ONE in the beginningitself, "naturally guide me to discrimination/wisdom in dealing withthem" ? Say, If I consider myself and body tobe ONE in essence , how will I then discriminate? How the reality ofyourself and objects is the same/one ? Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita,relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant tomotivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group'sprimary aim of deeper understanding of Gita. FOR RESPONDER1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka'stime.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Shree HariRam Ram "Vasudeva SarvamEverything is Paramatma (God)" is the ultimate of all knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this to be "Vigyaan" and balance all to be "Gyaan" ! To understand /realize the depth of this topic, sadhaks will have to be crisp, precise in stating scriptures. This is not a topic of only words and debate. Therefore please kindly pose specific questions andspecific responses - crisply, concisely and precisely based on scriptures only.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! There have been many postings on the subject "Duties of householder...", so I chose this, sort of a new topic. It is to build onShashikalaji's comments on essence of "everything and anything" anduse of viveka. The essence of all things, in our experience is just ONE, UndividedConsciousness! We can never experience "world out there including ourown body" in itself, as absolute truth. We just know it asperceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS-NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). Thus perceived objects are madeup of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them inthe moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separateobjects. Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. We cancall it Vasudev, God, Atman, Paramatman, Reality, Consciousness orwhatever name. This is called Absolute Truth of all our experiences,the true I! In jainism, they have term "NischayNaya", I think.Soon after the perceptions, mind with memory, intellect, etc resolvesthe Wholeness into objects that we are familiar in practical life. Sofirst perceptions, and then conceptions of objects with names happenin our experience! Names and forms are thus relative truth. It ishere that we need to be guided by discrimination to have a properperspective for each such object, so we can all function in the worldof relativity. This is VyavaharNaya in Jainism, I think. When we deeply understand the Essence of all things, being ONEReality, Paramtman, without a second Reality of thusperceived/conceived objeccts, we can function without attachments andthereby without suffering. In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even aswaves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of "myself" and objectsare one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discriminationin dealing with them! Vedanta even goes on to say "knower of Brahman becomes Brahman",Brahman being the Reality, the Essence of all! Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt ---------------------------NEW POSTING Jai HanumanYou said , Sadhna Jee , that in the end all 3 become one viz Sadhak, Sadhan and Sadhya ! My Q is among these three what remains in the end - Sadhan or Sadhya or Sadhak and why and how? Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala ------------------------------ Dear Sadhaks,A student of Physics can elaborate on this "Light can exhibit properties of both waves and particles (photons). This property is referred to as wave "particle duality."Light has dual nature. It is particle(matter) as welelectromagneticgnatic) wave. So it looks like we are pure Light as Sadhak Satyanarayanji pointed out.But the Light which a hevolvedevoled sadhak sees in himself is totally different from the sunlight. The Sunlight is born out of chemical reactions and has heat and light in it while the Light which a sadhak sees is cool and bright and pure white. I feel we are that Light which sadhak sees when he/she is in deep meditation.with Love,A sadhika Sadhna Karigar -------------------------- dear sadaks,In upanashids, it is said, Maha Pralayam takes place, the water covers the earth, then Maha Agni swallows water and earth, then maha Vayu (Wind) swallows Agni, then agni abides in Av Vaikthum (Space) and space abides in Paramasthuma WHO then goes into Yoga Nithra. Here the water quanity on earth consider as a glass of water, that is swallowed by Agni which is as big as a big house burning. The glass of water in that house transforms into steam and abides in enormous heat. Similarly a small stick caught fire can be blown off by heavy wind. etcFinally Paramathuma in Yoga Nithra silence. From Paramathuma starts AUM, then Vedas, then creation, then Bhramaji Who takes over to control. If one read Srimath Bagavath sharply it can be understood that how Paramathuma mixed 3 gunas Rajo, satvik and Tamo in what proportions and then created Prakurthi.So from Paramathuma light,sound Etc which was created in one trillionth of second in earth timing. Sadaks know that earth timing one year is equal to one day of Indra, 100 years of Indra is 1 day for Bhramaji. Then so on. In Vaikunt, it is clearly said there is Viraja Nadhi (River Viraja) where realized have bath and great souls invite the incoming soul and so on. Please ref Geet Govindam, Garuda Puran, Sri Math Bagavath, Kapila geetha all say this commonly.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan This is established recently by renound scientist. -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhak,Such a beautiful satsang going on here. Every time I start writing, I felt a mum. I have no words to describe HIM...When we say "Vasudev Sarvam" , it creates a false notion of Vasudev and Sarvam, but in reality sarvam has no independent existence. Without Vasudev, where is sarvam ? Sarvam appears because Vasudev Exist.A sadhak starts his sadhna to reach his sadhya, but finally sadhna, sadhak and sadhya becomes one and only One.Our mind creates the world by accepting time, space and causation, observes and enjoys its creation, co-exist with its creation and finally drops itself when feels-ab mein nacho bahut Gopala. Mind is inert still due to presence of Self, it becomes capable doing all this(as due to presence of the Sun, the beautiful drama is going on at the earth).Its like a child build a fort of sand at seashore, plays and enjoys it, and finally leaves or destroys it whenever he wants to, and runs back to his mother's lap.Without Light, there is no lighted. Light is absolute while lighted is relative. The One Truth spoken and described in many ways by all of us. Superb.........with Love,a sadhikaSadhna Karigar -------- Dear Divine,Pranam.Yes, light travels faster than sound and what Sathyanarayanji is saying is true from scientific point of view is also true but if you read Upanishads, even the Bible, it shows in which order this world got created - first came the sound - AUM, then came sky, air, light, water and last came earth (BG 7:4). Now the question is did sound come 1st that's why vibration happened and this friction caused light? Or the vibration happened first and this friction caused sound and light? Or like what Sathyananrayanji said light came 1st to cause vibration and sound? OR all happened at once? So is God, all pervading darkness from where creation starts and dissolves? I would make an attempt to explain unexplainable (what Mikeji asked in different message...). I am gross body. prior to it I existed as strong samskars/habits - mind/intellect/memory. prior to it i existed as vaasanas/desires/thoughts. prior to it I existed as words. prior to it I existed as letters/alphabets. prior to it i existed as just a sound without alphabets and that was AUM. prior to this I existed as space (condition needed for sound to travel is space). And prior to this sound, I existed as pure Consciousness!!! Is pure consciousness equals light? If it is sound and vibrations are also part of pure consciousness. And prior to that nothing exist then is it pure darkness? Have fun contemplating...humble regards,always at Thy so Loving, Divine & Mysterious FeetManjula Patel------ Dear Sadhak's,Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? asks Sri Pratabji. Yes, possible.Once one sees Perceiver, he can see perceived also, as perceived has come from perceiver. Example: Recent times- Ramana Rishi left his home while studying 8th sandard. He found difficulty in read Wren and Martin book. He sat in cave 60 days, realized Bagavan Shiva. He wrote commentary on Geetha in Tamil. But he spoke of any text from 108 upnashids, vedas, the world, Maya etc. Ancient times-- Valmiki was thief and illiterate. Realized Ram Nam. Wrote wonderful scripts in Sanskrit. 16th centuary Sant Tukaram Abang says about the conscience what we all are talking off and it says that he and God are NOT two. In south India a sant called Vallalar- at age of 7 he left home. Sat in solitude like Buddha. He sang 5 scripts of Bagavan Shiva which is said in Tamil (5 Thirumurai) Realized GOD. Until then the whole Chidambaram temple authorities praised him. 6th Script he sang saying, "I am the most ignorant person, holding on to temples and idols. I could see all the world in Bagavan and Bagavan in the world". Sadaks that we are telling Vasudeva servam. We can see duallity the world and Bagavan, but we surely know the world is ever changing and Bagavan never changing. Sadaks this differance Bagavan Kurpa to show us, so that we negate world and hold on to Paramathuma. The real and unreal is revealed by Gyana then. So we live like dead irrespective of abuses or praises, wealth or poverty, death or existence of body,doing karma and social obligations without any attachment.Just for example: I was called to Guruvayur on Deepavalli day. My family felt bad. I told them that my existence is because of that Paramathuma and I have spent so many deepavali and what If I want to celebrate Deepavalli with Guruvayur Krishna. For Me home or temple is no differance." My family just kept quiet.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan ------- PRIOR POSTING HARE KRISHNA Krishna, in the joy of Loving, Showered His Blessings On Himself Bestowed on Himself the gift of Self- remembrance And, narinder was no more Only he was- - - - - Krishna - - - - Hare Krishna .... Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna , Hare Hare In the newly awakened Krishna consciousness Where-ever there was witnessing, seeing ..... Seeing through The mind's eye Or The Eye of the eye The Ear of the ear The Tongue of the tongue The Mind of the mind, Where so ever was the witnessing There was only Krishna everywhere In manifold manifestation ! In manifold manifestation Himself the witness Himself the winessing Himself the witnessed. Himself the rejoicing In Self - remembrance In the Self. Krishna - - - Hare Krishna ! Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna , Hare Hare AUM narinder bhandari--------- Dear Sadaks,Sri Manjulaji said so,"""we remain as light, vibration and sound, i.e., we are nothing but grossification of light, vibration and sound (hindi: ham jyoti, spandan aur dhwani ka hi ghat swaroop hain). Any one would like to share their thoughts?""".Again it is not light, vibration and sound. How? From light comes vibration, sound and solar energy. Small match stick when ignited by match box, one can hear a small sound. So in all cases of light, sound varies from the quantum of light. Say thunder, light comes first then the sound a little later. Light travels at 1,86,000 miles per second. Sound travels 1800 miles per second. Without light there is no sound or vibration, heat or energy Etc Light produces 8 properties, which matches with Astakshram Om Namo Narayanaya. So only ONE that Sri Vishnu/Narayana cause for everything and anything, but HE has NO cause.Sri Vishnu roopaya Shivaye. Sri Shiva roopaya Vishnuve.What Swamiji might has meant by saying you are the light not the lighted. Any lighting cause requires another source of fire, mode say Stick, matter say Ghee/oil. But the inner light Paramathuma, along with Jeeva and body illumines without source. That is you, you human. Now realize that light which can timeless exist with or without Jeeva and body. Please bear with these comments if I should be wrong.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan ----- PRIOR POSTING Vasudeva Sarvam It is YOU, Govinda, who weave The seven sounds Into the soundless Sound.YouWho swing the seven colours Into the Light of lights.LightThat pulsatesInThe soundless Sound.To create and sustainAn Existence so vastThatTime and SpaceFind themselves impotentTo suppress or express!And I Pure IntelligenceConsciousness,EnergyChangeless Unmoving,Do yetCreate Sustain and DestroyThe Three WorldsOnceEvery twenty- four hours!And choose to play the GameOf the Seeker and the SoughtOf the Dancer dancingEven when the DanceCries outTo beONE with the DancerIn Repose. HE ALONE PREVAILS He prevails! he prevails! he alone Who , yesterday , did prevailTomorrow, too will prevail He aloneFor whom all yesterdays are the Light of His eyesAnd tomorrows, the Laughter of His beingHe, who Himself is All yesterdays All tomorrows¦ And that which lies between¦.Ah ! The tyranny of the Mind That chooses to play in time In yesterdays, today and morrows While Eternity of This Moment Now laughs and laughsNo yesterday ever was, Beloved, nor morrows ever existAnd Today ?Ah ! Guess again ! If yesterday is the mist of memoryTomorrow, the cloud of imaginationToday ?Does today Exist. Is there any Today at all ! Reject Time Shun yesterdays and morrows And be ever Free of Today and Time¦ And beyond Time, beyond yesterdays, today and morrowsBlissfully enjoy the dream The Dream that is the Gift of Time Memory and imaginationWhich is This Moment Now .AUM narinder bhandari------------------------- Divine All. Pranams. Very beautiful message by Swamiji. There is no doubt about us being light and not the lighted one. Few weeks back, this thought/click/dawning happened that between Pramatma and us in our gross form (includs body, mind, intelluct and memory), we remain as light, vibration and sound, i.e., we are nothing but grossification of light, vibration and sound (hindi: ham jyoti, spandan aur dhwani ka hi ghat swaroop hain). Any one would like to share their thoughts? I agree Vyasji, Yoga Vashsitha is a jem of all jems!!! If one really understands it, one will know that nothing actually exist!!! humble regards, always at Thy Mayaavi Feet Manjula Patel--------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Here is the Ultimate Subject, The LIGHT of all lights. Pujya Swamiji's most profound message yet!This Light is what we ARE, not what is lighted, the body-mind-world! See it is not theoretical at all, is our experience as these words are written and read! Please, please!Swamiji says once this discrimination between Vasudeva, the Light, the imperishable, and Sarvam, the lighted, the perishables takes place, Realization of Vasudeva Servam also takes place! What it means that lighted objects considered as separate objects are perishables due to their existence in time-space causality, but when Lighted are see as One totality(which is our innermost experience), they are ONE Light, Non-dual! Our problem is we give thus lighted and illumined objects reality and get attached or resist them, while the Illuminator, the Only Reality, ISNESS gets IGNORED!Then he says: "There is nothing to be done. There is no description of this experience. It simply IS. Absolute stillness." Note here as he says, no description, only EXPERIENCE! In the vedantic text called Panchdashi, the entire chapter 10 "Natak Deepah" or "Lamp of the theater stage" is devoted to illustrate this point!This post is an expression of my appreciation, gratitude and Pranaam to Swamiji! I hope Sadhakas will be helped tremendously upon serious contemplation! Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt----------------- Hari Om Agreed Jee ! But theory has its own beauty, particularly when it emanates straight from Holy Scriptures. Oh ! What a bliss Yoga Vaashishtha brings to the Sadhak. The objects seen in dream were only creations of mind, where seen, seeing and seer- all was mind only. That is considered as the mind which is the form of the Infinite Principle (tattwa) of the Self, the all-powerful Supreme Spirit, created by its power of thought or will (sankalpa) ! The Supreme Consciousness, excited by the powers of movement in the form of space and time and pusuing imagination, attains to the position of grasping things. This vibration or movement is of the nature of imagination of objects. This Supreme Consciousness flows forth by itself, imagining objects which have gone beyond its nature. Itself having faded all around , it is enfeebled. That is considered as MIND. The Consciousness which is associated with objects imagined is declared as comprehension or grasping of ideas. That state of Consciousness which is intent on objects is considered as the sprout of imagination. Consciousness, thinking of objects perceived as if they are distinct from itself, attains to the state of imagination, like a seed attaining to the state of a sprout !! Vasudeva and the world are one and real. The One is existing as the Many and the whole appears not to be so. The Pure is spread as Impure. That which is not void (Paramatma) appears as void (world) and the void is manifested as non void. That which is large is like a thing which is not large and the one which is not expanded qppears like one expanded. That which is immutable appears LIKE ONE LIABLE TO CHANGE. The one which is equal and calm appears like one disturbed. The real one is INVISIBLE like a non existent thing. Only THAT has risen like one which is not THAT !! The undivided one appears like divided. THE ONE WHICH IS NOT INACTIVE HAS BECOME LIKE ONE WHICH IS INERT. Though unknowable, it appears as one having the nature of the known. Without parts, it is shining like one with parts. He who is not "I" appears like I. One without destruction appears as one which is perishable.Though free from Maya (illusion), it is like the stainless sun with a circular orb of illusory rays. Know that Brahman as the Lord of the Wise, as you know the great ocean as the lord of the waters !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---- Dear sadaks,Question: How to not see the world (inert, temporary), and instead see ONLY God ? (Sansaar ne dikhkar, kewal Paramatma Kaise dikhey?) May this be a little bit of message for clarity.Sukh Brama was walking away from his father Veda Vyas. His father was following his son. In a pond there were woman bathing clotheslines. As Sukh was walking along they never even bothered. But when his father Ved Vyas walking the woman raped themselves in clothes. Ved Vyas aasked these woman, "Why are you woman clothing looking at me? My son is teen ager and you woman neglect him. " Woman answered, ' Saint Vyasji it is your first cause that because you are asking this question, that is you see us and yourself as 2 objects. While Sukhji see the trees around, birds of air, prakurthi and us with NO differance. Sukhji see Sarvam Para Bramam. One and the only one. ''Sadaks, seeing, hearing, talking etc should not be attached in mind level as objects of pleasures. Eyes can see but mind should be tuned to Neti (Negate) the objects on earth, such that mind should cast eagerness to see Guru, Parents, Bagavan. Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Shri HariVery interesting idea "Light of all Lights" message from world to divinityRam Ram Pawan Singhal -------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Some posts of Sadhakas seemed theoretical to Shashikalaji! However, these posts echo Advaita Vedanta, a rare Gem of Seers of Truth! With all the respects, to some of us, this is the most practical as it addresses the ignorance at its core. There are many approaches to Truth, some simple and some not-so-simple depending upon sadhakas.Why not we share what we understand by putting them on this platform and let all take a look and decide for themselves with open mind. Many aspects of Gita and Swamiji's teachings are preparatory in nature to make us eligible to receive the Ultimate Subject, our true nature! For example, advice such as "don't get attached to world, give up doership/enjoyership, Don't think bad of anyone" etc find extraordinary meanings and get implemented naturally when one understands one is not an individual one thinks one is. All attachments are inherent in the individual, not in the world objects, as any separate entity finds the need to defend its interests at any cost even if its unfair to other such individuals. Strange as it may sound, we don't have any proof we are such autonomous individuals! "I am this body and so and so..." is just a false belief taken real, and we kill each other if we have to for this belief! Also the doer we assume ourselves to be is really the "skill, know-how, knowledge etc" stored as intellect that we identify with all our life without questioning, taking as I, the doer. See this intellect is also given to us! It is losing sight of this truth and keep trying to be free of doership. Seeing the truth of this liberates from doership while doing karmas! Otherwise we keep fighting to get rid of perceived doer with believed doer!Neti, Neti approach is not just talk, nor complex! We make it complex by not giving it a try!In this approach, we are asked to see that anything and everything known by mind is defined in space-time imposing attributes, etc thus making them limited, and therefore, it cannot be Iti, Iti or Vasudeva being Unlimited!Upon deep understanding, mind gives up all attempts to hold THAT, naturally, and thus in the emptiness of such mind Vsudeva invites Himself in and takes the reins of that carriage becoming its charioteer!The point is that if our mind is simple enough like that of famous Bhaktas, like Meera, Devotion path may sound simple, and if we are given to inquiry, let it be so! Ultimately its the mind that needs to be Silent on its own as it cannot be made silent by dismissing it when it wants to know answers! Samadhan - "Understanding with satisfaction" plays a major role in silence of the mind than even Samadhi, if mind is asking and asking!Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om That which is constant at the beginning and the end is called Real. What is Real at the beginning and end, is only real when existing at present. What doesn't exist at the beginning and the end, is so at the present also. Of what nature could the reality be, of a thing that does not exist at the beginning and the end? There is no destruction at any time of that which exists. The delusion of the world is of the mind. It is neither Real nor Unreal ! It is not born; and it has risen like a conjuring trick, (causing illusory perceptions) of a number of minds. The same illusion may be seen by a number of persons due to illusion. Therefore, this objective world is not real at any time; nor is it unreal. It is neither real nor unreal as the delusion of a snake in a rope. It has risen like the illusion of dreams and shines like a false idea. The wealth of magic constituting the world is very much exhibited or spread here by mind, as a moving wave, though unreal, is exhibited by a river caused by heat (mirage), as if it were real. Unreal on account of its instability and real on account of its appearance or perception, the world WHICH IS A PROJECTION OF THOUGHT, is of the nature of both reality and unreality as a dream is. As pearl necklaces, feathers of peacock's tail, balls of hair and the like seen in the sky are unreal, but have become reality for those WITH A DEFECTIVE VISION, so, the world appears to those with defective vision. This is only unreality resembling reality and is an appearance. It is uncreated, yet experienced ! It is not Real but EXISTS as reality. Next: Firm Belief of Mind (Sankalpa) Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Beautiful are Expressions of Truth, Itself remaining INEXPRESSIBLE!Many are its Manifestations, Itself remaining ONE Unmanifest!The Essence of Everything and Anything and Nothing!It is heartening to read posts by Vyasji, Nagaji, Narinderji, Moderatorji, Mike, Sathyanarayanji, all sharing the same Wisdom in their own ways! I shared the same understanding hoping it answered Vyasji's tough questions, though not as eloquently!It is a real joy to get booster shots! I thank you all sadhakas! Consciousness, THAT, SELF, THE ABSOLUTE, BELOVED KRISHNA of BG ALL ONE REALITY, DIVINITY! Vasudeva in guise of everything and anything!As Vyasji put it, This is the ultimate subject!To that I would add: And That ultimate Subject is "I". That Sat-Chit-Anand appears(feels/thinks) as "I", the body-mind, I call "me/mine", you call "you/yours", we call "us/ours"! What a trick the magician is playing!Let us unfold it, right now, not later!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt --Jai Hanuman I don't believe in 'theoritical' types of talks. Swamiji also insisted upon simple down to earth conduct. Vyasji appears to be in theoritical mode suddenly. Ok ! He has right to do so ! May be that is necessary too ! But to my mind, practical is more important. Hence here is practical talk on the subject. There are 2 things. Read last Sadhak Message of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj . One- BG 2:16 ! Two- BG 7:19 ! How to 'realise' - Vasudeva Sarvam- BG 7:19 ? Every thing is 'thou and thou' only ! How ? How?? Don't understand any one to be bad ! Don't do bad to any one !! Don't wish bad for any one !!! If you see any one indulging in evil thoughts/ deeds/ desires- think : God is playing as per Time - Kaliyuga !! Conduct yourself carefully- as per order of God- BG 2:47 ! But from inside your heart never consider any one to be bad ! Enough Jee ! Enough !! Why to be so complex? Be that, if that helps complexity loving Sadhaks ! Why this 'NETI ..NETI' lecture? There is ONLY one existing. 'NETI NETI' is BG 2:16 ! Sure ! But is BG 7:19 clear? NETI NETI ! Why such big talk? Baba ! Simple ! Do objects seen in dream exist in reality ? No ! So long as dream was there, they 'appeared' real ! Where are they now? Who made/ created them? MIND Jee, Mind ! Throw mind into the dust bin ! Where is the world now ? Where are objects ? What NETI NETI ? Why ? Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala --- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om On the subject of Vasudeva Sarvam (7:19) or Nasato Vidyate Bhavah (2:16)- main Qis how objects / world do not exist at all? Do we not directly experience theworld ? How to negate that? The fact is that this world is the expansion of Brahman. The triple world iswithin consciousness. Brahman alone appears as the world. The universe createdby Brahma is mental. Brahma has a body consisting only of thought. Hence Brahmais known in the Scriptures as Cosmic Mind. The imagination of objects is of thenature of mere appearance or illusion of Absolute Consciousness. That indeed is described by the word Jeeva ( embodied/individual soul) which isthe natural throb of the pure sky of Consciousness. As there is movement of wind, the hotness of fire or the coldness of ice, so there is Jeevahood of the Self. That Self Principle ( or the Absolute Consciousness) , which is not limited byspace, time etc takes a body held in space and time, through its own power andONLY OUT OF SPORT ! ( Ekaki na ramate ). The Self is spontaneously perceived ,as if it were another, only by itself. When Self produces the energy calledthinking ( or imagination) like wind its power of motion, then, the universalSelf becomes the mind consisting of grasping of thoughts, appearing as it weredifferently, manifesting its form of its own accord. THUS , THE ABSOLUTE CONSCIOUSNESS, IMAGINING ITSELF AS DIFFERENT BY NATURE, GOESAS IT WERE TO THE STATE OF OTHERNESS BY ITSELF , IN THE FORM OF ITS OWN ERROR (i e , such imagination). As the same man indeed becomes another in a moment on account of anger , so, theone of the nature of Pure Consciousness , has gone to the state of otherness,having the stain of error/imagination. For him who considers this collection of rays of solar light as different fromthe Sun, this is indeed different, as it were, from the Sun !!! (Other examples-Gold/Bracelet; Water/Wave; Fire/flame; ) To be contd. In the meantime let there be deliberations/focussed and brief onthe subject / material shared so far. Even Moderators have requested ALL Sadhaksto whole heartedly participate. I will answer each and every question on thesubject. Start asking Qs (on shared material) as I continue taking thedeliberations forward. This is ULTIMATE subject ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B-------------------------------There is nothing else besides Vasudeva, is this sentiment that Bhagwaan hasexpressed mainly for a bhakta (loving devotee)? If you want me to answer this question … "The Truth is everything" is the fact -no matter whether it is told or not, whether it is told to somebody or everybodyor nobody, whether anybody receives it or not, whether anybody accepts it ordisputes it … the very statement covers everything with absolutely noexceptions. But, one who receives the message earnestly is invariably a Bhaktain essence. Isn't so? THAT does not address anybody in particular ... yet,anybody, no matter what, is elligible and capable of approaching THAT! NETI means "anything is not THAT" ... it does not mean "THAT is not anything".THAT is anything and everything. But, nothing can be THAT in isolation as TheTruth cannot be multiple. This results in Mano Naasha (annihilation ofsubjective identity) - that is what I tried to mean in the beginning of myoriginal utterances. But, an individual cannot fathom what THAT means thanks to its self-rooted,self-promoted and self-protected confinement camps called identities. The fellowhelplessly insists the images collected as its identities as "the only reality".It does not mean that The Truth could be excluded even in such ignorance - THATincludes everything without saying. But, the ignorant cannot fathom thewonderful experience of the Universal Presence as it cannot break open itscocoons of ignorance in terms of its beleifs and doubts, desires and fears, andlikes and dislikes. The only way to entice the ignorant to break open itscocoons is to suggest the opposite (NETI) of its beliefs rather strongly. Whenthe deeprooted beliefs are negated strongly, there is a positive chance that onewould look into one's self-proclaimed identities to come out with ajustification. As every image that the ignorant brings out in support, "TheNETI" stands against smashing the images one after the other burning down theignorance hoarded in terms of the images within. When all the images areannihilated, one can experience The Absolute. Unless the individual can fathombeyond the cocoons of beliefs, "Vasudevah Sarvam", The Absolute remains a notionin one's mind. NETI helps breaking all the beliefs helping us attain The Truth. When "NETI" hints upon The Truth, then, "NETI" means "NOT JUST THIS" and not"NOT THIS" … as we apply such an appreciation in our lives, Vasudeva blooms toITS infinitude breaking all the barriers we have gathered. This results in AatmaBodha (Universal Awareness). That is what I tried to mean later in my originalutterances. Anything IS THAT, but anything trapped in a perceived domain is NOT - meaning,"do not limit your appreciation to anything as such … let it flow freelyencompassing the whole universe and beyond … do not confine yourself to anyfigment even if it is the whole universe itself … then, there is an opportunityto witness The Vasudeva, The Lord of All. In fact, "Vasudevah Sarvam" itself is a discriminative notion that is requiredtill the contradictions of real and unreal loom around in one's existence. Once,all the unreal is mitigated, real does not make sense either. Just like "You areeating" is a meaningless statement to the one who is already eating, "VasudevahSarvam" is a meaningless statement to a Prahlada who is already THAT. As Swamijisays, such a natural presence wherein both real and unreal loose their dominionsis "Vasudevah Sarvam" (REFER below). Om Tat Sat! Respects.Naga Narayana. Excerpts from "Sahaja Nivritti" from Sadhan Sudha Sindhu: Asat ko satta denese hee nivritt (sahaja-nivritt) aur praapt (swatah-praapt) -ye do vibhag kahe jaate hai. Asatko satta na de to na nivritt hai, na praapthai, pratyut sattamaatr jyon-ki-tyon hai. Dusare shabdon me, jabtak asatki sattahai, tabtak vivek hai. Asatki satta mitneper vivek hee tattvagnyaanme parinat hojaata hai; kyonki jab asatki satta hai hee nahi, to phir sat hee shesh rahega.Iseeko Geetane "Vasudevah Sarvam" kahaa hai. The distinction between the real (the ever-attained) and the unreal (theever-departing) remains only because one provides importance to the unreal. Oncethe unreal becomes insignificant in one's perception, there is neitherattainable nor unattainable, but mere presence as such. In other words, thediscrimination is present (and required) only till there are traces of theunreal. Once the unreal is annihilated at its core, the same discriminationmatures into realization because, when there is no unreal at all, everything isnothing but the mere presence of all, The Truth, The Sat. This is referred to as"Vasudevah Sarvam" in the Bhagavadgita. PS: Original Hindi version is given, in case, there is any misgivings in itsenglish version. Respects. Naga. --------------------------------Dear Sadaks,Everything is that a worldly man desires. No matter how much wealth, fame, onemay have but a little more. A millionaire, then a multimillionaire, 1st richestman on earth Etc.Anything is for realized one. Anything on earth is Vasudev Swaroop-Poornathuvam, nothing beyond and permanent. So the Gyani cannot have 2 differentthings, he sees Vasudeva Sarvam.Ordinary man sees another person Mr/Mrs X by looks, by his dress, by his wealthEtc. But Gyani sees the same Mr.X inside that illumines is Paramathuma. All theexternal features of Mr.X is unseen.Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan------------------------------- THE NATURE AND EXPERIENCE OF ISNESS ( The essence ) One day, of Krishna , Govinda, Satguru, I asked,O KrishnaGovinda, my Love,Satguru, my Being, pray let me know,What is Realisation?Realisation, answered Krishna , is the IS-NESS of all that ISAnd Beloved, implored within me, What is my IS-NESS ?I cannot say, I cannot tell,Govinda smiled, But IS-NESS happened, it just happened !The Gift of my SatguruAndTime was no more,Nor Space,Nor speech, nor silence,Only ISNESS.In the Eternity of the MomentThe giving of the GiftThe receiving of the GiftNo Giver, No Reciever,Only ISNESS. In the Eternity of the MomentSilence that IS.In the Eternity of the MomentThe Soundless Sound.In the Eternity of the MomentThe One Word.In the Eternity of the MomentThe expansion of the Word, The Vedas.In the Eternity of the MomentAll movement, the World, the Universe.In the Eternity of the MomentTotal stillness, Void,Full-ness absolute.In the Eternity of the MomentOnly IS-NESS.Only IS-NESS, just Is-ness!Only the Giving, only the ReceivingSans Giver, Sans ReceiverOnly IS-NESS.Only IS-NESSOnly gratitudeOnly Loving, choiceless lovingOnly One-ness, Not- two-ness foreverOf the seeker and his Guru, ONlY IS-NESS. AUMnarinder bhandari---------------------------PRIOR POSTING Q: When there is nothing else besides Vasudeva, then where is thequestion of IS NOT? is unclear.... I agree ... there is no room for "IS NOT" ever. THAT IS CORRECT. TheAsat by its very nature is "unreal" and hence "non-existent" on itsown. How can a non-existent be anything at all?! That is nothing butnothing!! The "IS NOT" is just a figment of our imagination when we try tocontain everything that we perceive within the boundaries of ourcognition. The very presence of "IS NOT" just reminds us that we areNOT in The Vignyaana but trapped within our cognitive dependence.Till cognitive dependence rules, whatever perceived DOES NOT LOOK LIKE "SAT",THE REAL to a true seeker - because, the cognition keepschanging the perceived perpetually. It is in this context, all thewise saints say "NETI" ... "IS NOT" is a necessity for seeking Truthtill Asat leaves no traces in our presence. That is the onlyfool-proof way of realizing our ignorance in believing the limitedcognitive perception itself as "the reality". Once the Asat ismitigated encore, ONLY SAT stays, ONLY VIGNYAANA remains, ONLY TRUTHprevails. Applying the essence of appreciation backwards in our dailylife, one would then say that "the so-called Asat" is also THATalone.That means, "The Asat" is non-existent whether we acknowledge or not.Such an understanding can come only after attaining the Tattva. To start with ... under dominion of the discrimination anythingperceived cannot be THE COMPLETE as the preception leaves outinfinitude beyond itself. But once The Absolute is attained, THATalone is prevalent in everything. The very notion of the Asat ismitigated encore and hence one need not verify anything as Satanymore. My most favorite example for this is from Swamiji("Bhagavattattva" in Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga): For a mundane person, the Asat is as crisp and clear as a solid linedrawn on a solid rock (NETI is extremely necessary here).For a truthful seeker of truth, in the beginning, it becomes like aline drawn on sand (Still NETI remains important for progress).For a truth seeker in whom the wisdom has bloomed, its is like a linedrawn on water (NETI fades away as the SAT prevails).For a Tattvagnya who is permanently established in The Vignyaana thatSwamiji refers to, the Asat, the unreal is truly as unreal andillusive as a line drawn in space ... IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST! Thenwhere is the question of IS NOT when we contemplate on "VaasudevahSarvam"? You are right ... then ... "IS NOT" is absolutelyirrelevant; IS alone is relevant as well as prevalent. As you correctly pointed out in your note, most of us (at least I amclear about myself) are NOT EVEN FIT to talk about THAT as I amnowhere near THAT ... ONLY REALIZED ONES such as Swamiji can talk onsuch matter. However, if I have to contemplate on such an idea, I AMBOUND TO BE TRUTHFUL TO THE IDEA RECEIVED IN AS MUCH CLARITY ANDTRANSPARENCY AS POSSIBLE - THAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY. As Swamiji sayswhile teaching us how to apply discrimination ("Vibhaga Yoga", inSadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga), we should adapt the truthfulappreciation that we perceive in the realized ones truthfully ... atleast while contemplating on THAT if not all the time! That is my limited understanding on this. If you want more, I amafraid, the only way is to invoke The Swamiji and such realized onesin our contemplation ... it is a wonderful journey of perpetualremoval of the debris (the unreal) hoarded within ... That is all Ican share on this ... Thank You. Respects. Naga Narayana--------------------------Shree HariRam Ram Nagaji, you say - wise saints say "NETI" ... "IS NOT" is a necessity for seekingTruth. Does that mean "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19), "I am Being (sat,real) and Non-being (asat, unreal) both." There is nothing else besidesVasudeva, is this sentiment that Bhagwaan has expressed mainly for a bhakta(loving devotee)? Sarvottamji,Swamiji has spoken to you about Vasudeva Sarvam, can you provide your insightson what is meant by "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19). All sadhaks welcome toshare on Gita 9:19. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------------------------- Thank you, Naga Narayana jee............ ISNESS narinder bhandari---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING "Vasudeva SarvamEverything is Paramatma (God)" is the ultimate ofall knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this tobe "Vigyaan" and balance all to be "Gyaan" ! What a wonderful statement! We most often jump aroundconsidering "Gnyaana" itself as "Vignyaana"!! Brihadaaranyaka(4.2.12) makes an acute observation on this. Yagnyavalkya concludesthat, "No gnyaana can ever be present in Moksha". Everything is THATVIGNYAANA alone. He calls IT "Vignyaanaghana" - purest essence ofall intelligence. We often get carried away by our informativerelational rationale to address the same. Vasudeva includes everything ... there is no room outside Him. Pl.refer to Vishwarupa Darshana Yoga. HE includes Duryodhana and thegang as much as the Yudhishthira and the gang. HE includes the mostpowerful of all as much as the weakest of all. HE includes therichest as much as the poorest. No parameter in any dimension canever outrange HIM! The discrimination and rationale can rule onlythe domain of Gnyaana ... not The Vignyaana. Again, it is an opinion projected through the mechanism ofGnyaana ... therefore, pl. treat it just that way. Respects. Naga Narayana---------------------------- MEW POSTING Vasudevah Sarvam - The Essence of ALL The essence of everything is THAT, The Absolute. The Matter IS THAT, but some matter trapped in a perceived body isNOT. The Energy IS THAT, but some energy trapped in a packet of matter is NOT.The Action IS THAT, but an action trapped in a packet of matter andenergy is NOT.The Thought IS THAT, but a thought trapped in an action is NOT.The Experience IS THAT, but an experience trapped in a thought isNOT.The Happiness IS THAT, but a happiness trapped in an experience isNOT. The Essence of all the joys ISThe Essence of all the experiences ISThe Essence of all the thoughts ISThe Essence of all the actions ISThe Essence of all the bodies ISThe Essence of all the energy ISThe Essence of all the matter IS... ... ...The essence of anything IS... ... ...The essence of everything ISThe Essence of ALL.The Absolute.The Truth. Vasudevah Sarvam. Respects.Naga Narayana--------------------------Shree HariRam RamNaga Narayanaji, Some further clarity needed on second note. IfEverything is Vasudeva (Gita 7:19), then is there a "is Not" assuch? "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19), "I am Being (sat, real) andNon-being (asat, unreal) both." When there is nothing else besidesVasudeva, then where is the question of IS NOT? is unclear....From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram-------------------------- Sadhakas, Namaste!It is a great privilege to be part of this wisdom platform sharingwith each other and learning along the way by bringing inexperiences in light of scriptural injunctions or pointers fromspiritual teachers! As Vyasji put it, then, we can have moremeaningful deliberations.With deep respects and divine friendship, I would answer thequestions posed by Vyasji as best as I can through the words. Itwill be better to break them in different posts.1. How can we experience undivided Consciousness at the outset?We do experience as such, it is just not noticed that way.Consciousness appears to be divided as many objects, split secondlater, after initial perception. Consciousness cannot be divided,only seems to be so like a movie characters seem to divide ONElight. Attraction for the seen objects distracts us from the non-divisible SEER of all objects!If one notices one doesn't see a particular object initially, onesees as if the view in front of our eyes is totally enveloped in thespace surrounding it, as if in the ocean of space, we see waves offorms, upon initial perceptions by senses as raw sensations. Thisocean of space itself is in the ocean of Consciousness, so to speak,as only a Conscious Being can perceive such space. However, thoughtarises "I see a chair there". Notice, when this is said, the time ofinitial perception is elapsed, so our recognizing a particularobject is in time-space fabric, an integral part of the thought "Isee a chair", chair being from past memory! By the time werecognize, it is already past, as all such thoughts are. We cannever know the separate objects without such thoughts and when weknow they are past. Object-thoughts are like waves in the Ocean ofConsciousness, so all objects including body we call ours arethoughts-Consciousness in our actual experience. The statement "Isee a chair" is not our experience in this sense, but isconceptualization of wholeness of experience for the sake oflanguage. Only seeing which is being conscious of, is experiential,I-thought as individual is identification with body-mind ofConsciousness and Chair-thought is memory. THAT Which isexperiential is always with us, and is Consciousness Itself, whereas experiences of objects as thoughts are fleeting!It is, as though, from Totality of view in front of us, we areextracting each object by offering it space and time to exist in ourthoughts-mind, in what seems to be division into many objects.Please see this fact: our thoughts manifest objects! When we are notconscious of objects, they remain non-manifest as in deep sleep!As this part of our experience is not noticed and deeplycontemplated upon, we see only separate objects and forgetting thatseparate objects are in mind as thoughts in terms of words(namesbeing time dimension and shape being space dimension).Also it is to be noticed that these objects are Consciousness ofthem, totally subjective in nature because objects don't participatein our re-cognition of them. No objects tells us what it is, only wecall them this or that. If we call cat a dog, or dog a cat, nothinghappens to them intrinsically. In otherwords, dog is true onlyrelative to everything else we know that is "not dog-like". Thus allnames are dependent on our agreement to call them as such so we canfunction and discriminate relatively, it is just a pragmatism only.A dog or any name for that matter is not absolute truth of theobject as referred to by that name. In absolute Truth everythinghas to be undivided, and nameless ONE which we call Existence, Is-ness intrinsic to all objects, and is referred to as SELF, Atman inthe context of sentient beings meaning Existence that knows Itself,self-evident Light of Consciousness, Being is "consciousness ofbeing" and consciousness is "being". Sat is Chit and Chit is Sat andis everyone's experience all the time even if not noticed as in deepsleep! And "we" are THAT Absolutely!This is Vedanta proclamation!PS: Consciousness as I used it above is THAT Absolute Existencewhich perceives through each body-mind all objects, while ITSELFremaining non-perceivable ever through senses and mind. However, itis ever present, deep rooted PRESENCE in us of Existence by whichall else is known. IT is the ultimate Knowingness! It is our True I,we, they, all such pronouns, we use for ourselves, but are taken asindividuals.Finally all such words including Consciousness too are concepts, butuseful to point to TRUTH, which can only be pointed to our BEING-NESS!This may answer some questions, more later...Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!More on Vyasji's questions: Pardon me, I have to repeat some points,no choice!We cannot experience the world "out there", means the world we thinkis external to us by thinking our body ends at the surface of outerskin. The world and body appear in our Consciousness as perceptions,so we only experience our perceptions of world, and body."Body" is name given to being conscious of sensations, feelings ofpains, discomforts, sensual pleasures etc, Such body is "my body" isalso due to identification with such feelings and sensations callingit "me", and is thus not experiential.If all these are seen as appearances in Consciousness, and knowinglyidentify with Consciousness as I, the seer of all that is "seen",the discrimination happens. Next the world and body experiencedinwardly is found to be consisting of Consciousness only. Then onecan say "I am not this body, but this body, along with all otherbodies, are in "ME" as Consciousness, All bodies are mine! This iswhat Vasudevah Sarvam to me. This is because anything oneexperiences is at once at a zero distance from Consciouseness!Our connection to the apparent world and body is only through thisConsciousness, Chaitanya! For instance, a thought about a chairoriginates, is sustained and dissolves in us without ever touchingthe outside chair! So chair we experioence is chair-thought only,not the chaor in itself!Everything as a whole is Divine SELF, not an individual body takenexclusively as mine! The body, mind and the World are in ME asKrishna says, but I am not in them if taken as individual objects.Now the real outside world in and of itself cannot be named asseparate objects, because then it is from the mind-names-forms only.This nameless reality is Brahman, The absolute, THAT, Ishwara, orwhatever name we give,is in reality nameless or all names are only HIS names! IF we nameobjects, then, from mind only we can do so, and thus ones isrelative to others. No named object can stand on its own leg asabsolute truth, it needs the legs of others to stand and validateit. Oneness is Reality of experience and the separate objects areconcepts and thus to be discriminated for what its worth based onpragmatism!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt-------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Meditation continues in the form of answers to Vyasji's questionswith deep appreciation!Hopefully last two posts with this one cover most of the remainingones from no 3 onward!When I refer to we or I or any pronouns it means Consciousness orAtman that we are, the only Reality. However, we need to refer to usindividually for communication purpose and many practical reasons.In this spirit it is Consciousness as Sadhakas are questioning andanswering!Anything we know is Consciousness knowing Itself only becauseultimate Knower is THAT as us, and what is known are appearances assuch made up of thoughts as mind and feelings as bodily sensations,all perceived objects!Consciousness-Atman is the experience of Conscious Existence,indwelling Presence, Isness, and is self evident, no other knowerneeded to know this Presence or ISNess.It is not a state, or attribute. It is what it IS! As said before,It perceives only Itself as undivided(God sees everything God only,to God there is not everything else). This is said to emphasize theself-effulgence, self-luminous aspect, not attribute. ThisPerception is the whole and not time-space bound so it is notcreated, nor destroyed. However, when we separate It as objects byconceiving through thoughts in time-space fabric, specific objectthus conceived can end in time, but its Beingness cannot bedestroyed as it belongs to Totality from which it emerged and intowhich it dissolves!When I use "We perceive", I mean we as Consciousness perceives andendows mind to conceive objects so that Leela can go on! We manifesteverything out of ONE thing by conceiving through mind this Totalityjust as spider weaves web out of itself and then winds it in itself!This is our freedom to be Individual too!Can another object perceive? no, object itself is perceived. OnlyConsciousness being chaitanya perceives.By Perception, I mean raw sensations-data that sense-complex in thepresence of Atman seems to produce as Consciousness of ????.Conception is what I call perceptions resolved as objects with mind-intellect and when such mind assumes itself as knower, it isEGO/Jeeva, considering it as separate reality of beig subject apartfrom Real KNOWER!Nature of objects perceived/conceived are thus experienced by usonly as Consciousness, but we equate such objects with outsideobjects for which we have no direct knowledge. We only experienceour perceptions of the world which are subjective only, never theworld itself! In otherwords, world cannot be perceived independentof Consciousness in our experience!The way I use "experience" is that it is discrete, has beginningwith objects perceived as thoughts/feelings and end only to replacewith another such objects. "Experiential" to me, is that which iscontinuous, never begins or ends, is subjective in nature but freeof attributes of pairs of opposites, shines attributes-gunas ofobjects, always present as background or substratum of allappearances. It is Consciousness that IS or Brahman!Perceived and Perceiving Consciousness-Atman are same in the sensethat waves are perceived while ocean is perceiving Itself. For thepurpose of Leela, play, or Maya principle Consciousness forgets andconsiders appearances as Real until It chooses to end the game insome apparent birth and returns Home apparently as It never leftHome! Maya is not a problem, to consider it as Real is the problem!I think these answers questions on the path starting with oneself toreach ONE SELF, from SakshiBhav to SarvatmBhav, from "me" to ME,from personal being to Impersonal BEING and finally feel VasudevSarvam!I remain open to further dialogues!Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt-PRIOR POSTINGHari Om Pratapji ! I am sorry inspite of making efforts , I could notunderstand a lot of your Article. Hence I humbly seek elucidation byyou on the first part of your article.. That should make thedeliberations more productive, and fruitful, at least morecomprehensible. I seek your forgiveness for being of dullerintellect. Hope you will bless me with answers : 1 How do you say at the outset that we all areexperiencing "undivided consciousness"? Are we really ? I thought weare experiencing 'individual consciousness' only whichmeans 'divided' and not 'undivided' ! 2 You said : We can never experience "world out there including ourown body" in itself, as absolute truth. Out where? Why can't we experience the body as truth? Is not almostentire humanity experiencing the body as Self? For what Scripturesare struggling, otherwise? How it is relative? Relative to what?Where is the Q of absolute or relative Truth in "experiencing" ? "Initself" means in " which self" ? What is "itself" ? 3 You said: We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which isConsciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). We know what as perception ? Who is knowing? Who is that "we"? Whatis IS-NESS ? Is it a state / attribute or the ONLY thing ? If it isan attribute then there must be an experiencer also ? If there is noexperiencer then of what avail are the statements made by you sofrequently such as "we experience, perceiver, perceived, we" etc ?How can consciousness ( chetana) in itself perceive? Perceive whatwhen there is nothing except that ONLY existing? 4 Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu,Consciousness, as we experience them inthe moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separateobjects. Who is the experiencer( We) ? Is there any or there is "IS NESSONLY" sans experiencer? How objects are same as IS NESS ? "THUS"means what? What have you stated in previous two/three sentences ormore which makes you to conclude that nature of objects is same asthat of "us" ? Too fast a conclusion , Sir ? Please state the basisfor such conclusion ! Can objects also experience or perceive ? Doobjects exist? If yes, then do they have same property as "we" (inyour words) have? If no, where is the Q their being ONE with wholeor having same property as "we" have ? Is "Consciousness" sentientor inert? Or neither of them? Where is the need for discriminationif both are sentient or both are inert ? Where is the need forScriptures- if both YOGA and BHOGA are same? 5 You said: Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? What is your view? Are they same? If yes, how? If no, why not? Ifperceived, perception, and perceiver are same, then how the Q oftheir being same or not arises? Where does it arise?In whom does it arise? If they are not same, how there is ONE only ? 6 So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. "Experientially" - of whose experience, Pratapji ? How you havesaid "essentially"? Is it so ? What makes them ONE experientially?Are we experiencing that? Is their any EXPERIENCER of that state ofIS NESS (existence) or not ? Yes or No !! Pratapji ! Consider me as Devil's Advocate only and respond so thatall may benefit - SATSANGA !! Beauty lies there !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------Dear Sadaks,Contemplate on Sant Jadabharat in Srimat Bagavath talking to kingRaguguna on palanquin,saying "Oh king Raguguna, for me the palanquin, you and me are oneand the same from same earth". Can Sadaks pass their views in crisp.If everything and anything is same, where comes the question of SriKrishna telling Arjuna to wage war with Kauravas. Here Arjuna is oneand the other is Kauravas. But essence of everything and anything iscorrect. HOW?Jai Sri KrishanaB.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!I really appreciate Mike and Shashikalaji for their feedback andresponse. It helps my own understanding really as it works as abooster shot! I relate to what Mike said while reading Ch 11 andappreciate it too in the same spirit.Let me answer the question raised by Shashikalaji! First of all myrespects to her as she was the instrumental in making me share thispost!In the beginning, we are told by Scriptures or Realized souls likeSwamiji, you are not body-mind-sense complex, you are sentient andthe world being inert. So disidentify with such objects as they areperishable while you are Imperishable Atman or Consciousness! Whendeeply contemplated, "you"(?) take your stand as Witnessing Presencewithin, relative to everything being witnessed(SakshiBhav). This isessential first step, The crown jewel of Discrimination(vivekchudamani) between what one is, Atman, Conscious Being, andeverything witnessed, and both are apart. That which isperceived/conceived(body-mind-world) is distinct from all PerceivingConsciousness or Awareness. However, this is still relative truthas you are witness only relative to witnessed!Now comes Vasudev Sarvam or SarvatmaBhav! As you may appreciate bylooking openly at our inner experience at the time of perceptions itis NEVER that of separate objects.It is one Wholeness because one sees so many objects and spacecontaining them including one's own body, all at once. This is as ifin a pitch dark room one sees only dense-mass of darkness, onecannot even see one's own body! All of a sudden light is turned onand one sees separate objects as if they are materialized fromoneness of darkness surrounding them. Similarly we separate andconceive objects when we think "this is chair, this is table, thisis another person, this is me etc. These very thoughts of ours havetime and space embaded in them(Actually Consciousness creates time-space through us) so they help conceive separate objects we arefamiliar with outside. Nevertheless, they are experienced assubjective thoughts of those objects which we think are outsideindependently, not true. Such thoughts are Consciousness shaped upas those objects in all our exoeriences, just as water is shaped aswaves in the ocean.In other words, an object has to be one with Consciousness in orderfor it to be experienced by us, Conscious Being! So all we reallyexperience is Consciousness itself as body-mind and world. There isnothing else in our experience other than Consciousness, Reality,ISNESS! This very Consciousness is Absolute Existence, oneHomogeneous mass, so to speak, experientially! IT is what weeseentially are, and It is not personal, is shared by each body-mind! As a matter of fact there is nothing personal in the entirecosmos! We are like a window for Absolute to see through us andenjoy ITSELF as World(leela)!This is Vasudev Sarvam! All there is is this Consciousness, Brahman!So when we say objects don't have existence, it means separateobjects don't exist as they appear to be independent of ourexistence, however, Absolute Existence or BEINGNESS never ceases tobe disguised as diversity, the meaning of BG Ch 2:16.No one has ever experienced world in itself, it has been alwaysthrough being Conscious and as Consciousness. In and of itselfeverything is ONE UNDIVIDED BEINGNESS which Consciousness!Thus we deal with relative objects based on how they appear in ourmiinds, likes and dislikes due to conditioned by such objects takenreal!However, with this understanding Relative world of objects arediscriminated properly as you have suggested, and the biggest helpis that we don't get attached to them and fall apart.Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari- Dear Pratap Bhatt, I read your article several times, and it made me think deeply, thatis really good. It reminded me of things I meditated on, discussedand even experienced and so on. My mind went to Bhagavad Gita Ch.11 the revelation of Lord Krishna'sSupreme form (Ishwara).Before I continue I would like to share something. I read the wholeof the chapter, I was in a very focused state of mind, as I read theHoly Gita, something happened, yes I was reading it in English, butthe language of it faded away, I felt as if I were right there in astrange way, I felt I was a privileged observer, the richness of thewhole thing was fixed in my mind, hmmm, thats the best way mystumbling words can put it.(Most inadequately). Getting back to Gitaji Ch 11, Arjuna saw Shri Krishna, who heconsidered to be a great friend, in an overpowering form, I presumeonly Arjuna witnessed this, or more correctly was given the gift toperceive Ishwara, his senses were confounded he was terrified, andthen of course the vision left him. A friend of mine who was a walking encyclopedia, said that 90% of allwe perceive is filtered out, otherwise we could not function.(I thinkI read that somewhere myself).My proviso is the focused mind can transcend these limitations, andthe most powerful focus one can have is the 'The Divine Beloved'. B.G. 1153. Neither by the Vedas, nor by austerity, nor by gift, nor bysacrifice, can I be seen in this form as you have seen me (soeasily). 54. But by single-minded devotion can I, of this form, be known andseen in reality and also entered into, Arjuna! With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor)--------------------------- Dear Sadaks,A ray of light has 9 colors. But we see it as white. A minute dot ofwater try on your computer screen, it will reflect nine colours. Thelight is one but has 9 colours within.Jai Sri KriahnaB.Sathyanarayan------------------------------Jai Hanuman Mr Bhatt ! You said :In summary objects experienced are one withConsciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Realityof "myself" and objectsare one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discriminationin dealing with them! Can you elaborate as to how considering reality of "What exists"(Self) and "what does not exist at all" (objects) - by consideringthem (existent and non existent) to be ONE in the beginningitself, "naturally guide me to discrimination/wisdom in dealing withthem" ? Say, If I consider myself and body tobe ONE in essence , how will I then discriminate? How the reality ofyourself and objects is the same/one ? Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita,relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant tomotivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group'sprimary aim of deeper understanding of Gita. FOR RESPONDER1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka'stime.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 Shree HariRam Ram "Vasudeva SarvamEverything is Paramatma (God)" is the ultimate of all knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this to be "Vigyaan" and balance all to be "Gyaan" ! To understand /realize the depth of this topic, sadhaks will have to be crisp, precise in stating scriptures. This is not a topic of only words and debate. Therefore please kindly pose specific questions andspecific responses - crisply, concisely and precisely based on scriptures only.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! There have been many postings on the subject "Duties of householder...", so I chose this, sort of a new topic. It is to build onShashikalaji's comments on essence of "everything and anything" anduse of viveka. The essence of all things, in our experience is just ONE, UndividedConsciousness! We can never experience "world out there including ourown body" in itself, as absolute truth. We just know it asperceptions,the essence of which is Consciousness / Awareness /IS-NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). Thus perceived objects are madeup of the same stuff-Vastu, Consciousness, as we experience them inthe moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separateobjects. Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. We cancall it Vasudev, God, Atman, Paramatman, Reality, Consciousness orwhatever name. This is called Absolute Truth of all our experiences,the true I! In jainism, they have term "NischayNaya", I think.Soon after the perceptions, mind with memory, intellect, etc resolvesthe Wholeness into objects that we are familiar in practical life. Sofirst perceptions, and then conceptions of objects with names happenin our experience! Names and forms are thus relative truth. It ishere that we need to be guided by discrimination to have a properperspective for each such object, so we can all function in the worldof relativity. This is VyavaharNaya in Jainism, I think. When we deeply understand the Essence of all things, being ONEReality, Paramtman, without a second Reality of thusperceived/conceived objeccts, we can function without attachments andthereby without suffering. In summary objects experienced are one with Consciousness, even aswaves and water are essentially ONE! Reality of "myself" and objectsare one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discriminationin dealing with them! Vedanta even goes on to say "knower of Brahman becomes Brahman",Brahman being the Reality, the Essence of all! Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt ---------------------------NEW POSTING : Shree Hari : Ram Ram A moment comes when "Saadhya" remains and the "Sadhak" gets merged in "Saadhya". Then who does saadhan? Who then "experiences" Whom? Only "experience" remains. Vineet Sarvottam Ram Ram ------ Dear Sadhika Shashikalaji,yr Q---What remains in the end - Sadhan or Sadhya or Sadhak ?The Self remains AS IT IS in the moment NOW.There is no "end", no "beginning". Our mind names IT as sadhak or sadhaya or sadhna by creating time, place and causation. How? sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas I am to be known; indeed I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.In other terms, when we forget our true SELF (Krishna who is seated in our hearts), we call our SELF as ignorant jeevatma, when we start remembering Him, and try to reach HIM and follow the path of gyaan, karma or bhakti yoga, we call our SElF a Sadhak, and when we get the knowledge of true Self, we become one with Him, and say- Nasto moha smitri labdha....In this journey of Self, the Self has always been present.............in the begining, in the middle and at the end, nothing else existed but the Self, I prefer calling IT my beloved Krishna...why? I see it as a divine play of my beloved Krishna. With Love, A sadhika Sadhna Karigar ----- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji has said that in Bhaktiyoga (Path of Love and Devotion), a Sadhak (devotee) totally depends on only Saadhya (God). For such a sadhak (devotee), Saadhya (God) is the means (Saadhan, spiritual discipline) and the end (God, Saadhya). Therefore it has been declared in Srimad Bhaagavad 11:3:31, "Bhaktyaa sajyaatayaa bhaktyaa," i.e. with devotion is born devotion. Divine love and devotion is the end (saadhya) of all spiritual practices (saadhan). Meera Das ---------------------------- Dear Sadhaks,My Q is among these three what remains in the end - Sadhan or Sadhya or Sadhak and why and how? asks Sri Shashikala. Sadhya is practice ends, Sadhak bodily after death not in the world, Sadhan goes with Soul to place one to a suitable birth. Example: Bharat Yogi Sadana though disrupted but gave fruits on his 3rd birth as Jada Bharat.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Jai Hanuman You said , Sadhna Jee , that in the end all 3 become one viz Sadhak, Sadhan and Sadhya ! My Q is among these three what remains in the end - Sadhan or Sadhya or Sadhak and why and how? Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ------------------------------ Dear Sadhaks,A student of Physics can elaborate on this "Light can exhibit properties of both waves and particles (photons). This property is referred to as wave "particle duality."Light has dual nature. It is particle(matter) as welelectromagneticgnatic) wave. So it looks like we are pure Light as Sadhak Satyanarayanji pointed out.But the Light which a hevolvedevoled sadhak sees in himself is totally different from the sunlight. The Sunlight is born out of chemical reactions and has heat and light in it while the Light which a sadhak sees is cool and bright and pure white. I feel we are that Light which sadhak sees when he/she is in deep meditation.with Love,A sadhika Sadhna Karigar -------------------------- dear sadaks,In upanashids, it is said, Maha Pralayam takes place, the water covers the earth, then Maha Agni swallows water and earth, then maha Vayu (Wind) swallows Agni, then agni abides in Av Vaikthum (Space) and space abides in Paramasthuma WHO then goes into Yoga Nithra. Here the water quanity on earth consider as a glass of water, that is swallowed by Agni which is as big as a big house burning. The glass of water in that house transforms into steam and abides in enormous heat. Similarly a small stick caught fire can be blown off by heavy wind. etcFinally Paramathuma in Yoga Nithra silence. From Paramathuma starts AUM, then Vedas, then creation, then Bhramaji Who takes over to control. If one read Srimath Bagavath sharply it can be understood that how Paramathuma mixed 3 gunas Rajo, satvik and Tamo in what proportions and then created Prakurthi.So from Paramathuma light,sound Etc which was created in one trillionth of second in earth timing. Sadaks know that earth timing one year is equal to one day of Indra, 100 years of Indra is 1 day for Bhramaji. Then so on. In Vaikunt, it is clearly said there is Viraja Nadhi (River Viraja) where realized have bath and great souls invite the incoming soul and so on. Please ref Geet Govindam, Garuda Puran, Sri Math Bagavath, Kapila geetha all say this commonly.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan This is established recently by renound scientist. -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhak,Such a beautiful satsang going on here. Every time I start writing, I felt a mum. I have no words to describe HIM...When we say "Vasudev Sarvam" , it creates a false notion of Vasudev and Sarvam, but in reality sarvam has no independent existence. Without Vasudev, where is sarvam ? Sarvam appears because Vasudev Exist.A sadhak starts his sadhna to reach his sadhya, but finally sadhna, sadhak and sadhya becomes one and only One.Our mind creates the world by accepting time, space and causation, observes and enjoys its creation, co-exist with its creation and finally drops itself when feels-ab mein nacho bahut Gopala. Mind is inert still due to presence of Self, it becomes capable doing all this(as due to presence of the Sun, the beautiful drama is going on at the earth).Its like a child build a fort of sand at seashore, plays and enjoys it, and finally leaves or destroys it whenever he wants to, and runs back to his mother's lap.Without Light, there is no lighted. Light is absolute while lighted is relative. The One Truth spoken and described in many ways by all of us. Superb.........with Love,a sadhikaSadhna Karigar -------- Dear Divine,Pranam.Yes, light travels faster than sound and what Sathyanarayanji is saying is true from scientific point of view is also true but if you read Upanishads, even the Bible, it shows in which order this world got created - first came the sound - AUM, then came sky, air, light, water and last came earth (BG 7:4). Now the question is did sound come 1st that's why vibration happened and this friction caused light? Or the vibration happened first and this friction caused sound and light? Or like what Sathyananrayanji said light came 1st to cause vibration and sound? OR all happened at once? So is God, all pervading darkness from where creation starts and dissolves? I would make an attempt to explain unexplainable (what Mikeji asked in different message...). I am gross body. prior to it I existed as strong samskars/habits - mind/intellect/memory. prior to it i existed as vaasanas/desires/thoughts. prior to it I existed as words. prior to it I existed as letters/alphabets. prior to it i existed as just a sound without alphabets and that was AUM. prior to this I existed as space (condition needed for sound to travel is space). And prior to this sound, I existed as pure Consciousness!!! Is pure consciousness equals light? If it is sound and vibrations are also part of pure consciousness. And prior to that nothing exist then is it pure darkness? Have fun contemplating...humble regards,always at Thy so Loving, Divine & Mysterious FeetManjula Patel------ Dear Sadhak's,Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? asks Sri Pratabji. Yes, possible.Once one sees Perceiver, he can see perceived also, as perceived has come from perceiver. Example: Recent times- Ramana Rishi left his home while studying 8th sandard. He found difficulty in read Wren and Martin book. He sat in cave 60 days, realized Bagavan Shiva. He wrote commentary on Geetha in Tamil. But he spoke of any text from 108 upnashids, vedas, the world, Maya etc. Ancient times-- Valmiki was thief and illiterate. Realized Ram Nam. Wrote wonderful scripts in Sanskrit. 16th centuary Sant Tukaram Abang says about the conscience what we all are talking off and it says that he and God are NOT two. In south India a sant called Vallalar- at age of 7 he left home. Sat in solitude like Buddha. He sang 5 scripts of Bagavan Shiva which is said in Tamil (5 Thirumurai) Realized GOD. Until then the whole Chidambaram temple authorities praised him. 6th Script he sang saying, "I am the most ignorant person, holding on to temples and idols. I could see all the world in Bagavan and Bagavan in the world". Sadaks that we are telling Vasudeva servam. We can see duallity the world and Bagavan, but we surely know the world is ever changing and Bagavan never changing. Sadaks this differance Bagavan Kurpa to show us, so that we negate world and hold on to Paramathuma. The real and unreal is revealed by Gyana then. So we live like dead irrespective of abuses or praises, wealth or poverty, death or existence of body,doing karma and social obligations without any attachment.Just for example: I was called to Guruvayur on Deepavalli day. My family felt bad. I told them that my existence is because of that Paramathuma and I have spent so many deepavali and what If I want to celebrate Deepavalli with Guruvayur Krishna. For Me home or temple is no differance." My family just kept quiet.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan ------- PRIOR POSTING HARE KRISHNA Krishna, in the joy of Loving, Showered His Blessings On Himself Bestowed on Himself the gift of Self- remembrance And, narinder was no more Only he was- - - - - Krishna - - - - Hare Krishna .... Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna , Hare Hare In the newly awakened Krishna consciousness Where-ever there was witnessing, seeing ..... Seeing through The mind's eye Or The Eye of the eye The Ear of the ear The Tongue of the tongue The Mind of the mind, Where so ever was the witnessing There was only Krishna everywhere In manifold manifestation ! In manifold manifestation Himself the witness Himself the winessing Himself the witnessed. Himself the rejoicing In Self - remembrance In the Self. Krishna - - - Hare Krishna ! Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna , Hare Hare AUM narinder bhandari--------- Dear Sadaks,Sri Manjulaji said so,"""we remain as light, vibration and sound, i.e., we are nothing but grossification of light, vibration and sound (hindi: ham jyoti, spandan aur dhwani ka hi ghat swaroop hain). Any one would like to share their thoughts?""".Again it is not light, vibration and sound. How? From light comes vibration, sound and solar energy. Small match stick when ignited by match box, one can hear a small sound. So in all cases of light, sound varies from the quantum of light. Say thunder, light comes first then the sound a little later. Light travels at 1,86,000 miles per second. Sound travels 1800 miles per second. Without light there is no sound or vibration, heat or energy Etc Light produces 8 properties, which matches with Astakshram Om Namo Narayanaya. So only ONE that Sri Vishnu/Narayana cause for everything and anything, but HE has NO cause.Sri Vishnu roopaya Shivaye. Sri Shiva roopaya Vishnuve.What Swamiji might has meant by saying you are the light not the lighted. Any lighting cause requires another source of fire, mode say Stick, matter say Ghee/oil. But the inner light Paramathuma, along with Jeeva and body illumines without source. That is you, you human. Now realize that light which can timeless exist with or without Jeeva and body. Please bear with these comments if I should be wrong.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan ----- PRIOR POSTING Vasudeva Sarvam It is YOU, Govinda, who weave The seven sounds Into the soundless Sound.YouWho swing the seven colours Into the Light of lights.LightThat pulsatesInThe soundless Sound.To create and sustainAn Existence so vastThatTime and SpaceFind themselves impotentTo suppress or express!And I Pure IntelligenceConsciousness,EnergyChangeless Unmoving,Do yetCreate Sustain and DestroyThe Three WorldsOnceEvery twenty- four hours!And choose to play the GameOf the Seeker and the SoughtOf the Dancer dancingEven when the DanceCries outTo beONE with the DancerIn Repose. HE ALONE PREVAILS He prevails! he prevails! he alone Who , yesterday , did prevailTomorrow, too will prevail He aloneFor whom all yesterdays are the Light of His eyesAnd tomorrows, the Laughter of His beingHe, who Himself is All yesterdays All tomorrows¦ And that which lies between¦.Ah ! The tyranny of the Mind That chooses to play in time In yesterdays, today and morrows While Eternity of This Moment Now laughs and laughsNo yesterday ever was, Beloved, nor morrows ever existAnd Today ?Ah ! Guess again ! If yesterday is the mist of memoryTomorrow, the cloud of imaginationToday ?Does today Exist. Is there any Today at all ! Reject Time Shun yesterdays and morrows And be ever Free of Today and Time¦ And beyond Time, beyond yesterdays, today and morrowsBlissfully enjoy the dream The Dream that is the Gift of Time Memory and imaginationWhich is This Moment Now .AUM narinder bhandari------------------------- Divine All. Pranams. Very beautiful message by Swamiji. There is no doubt about us being light and not the lighted one. Few weeks back, this thought/click/dawning happened that between Pramatma and us in our gross form (includs body, mind, intelluct and memory), we remain as light, vibration and sound, i.e., we are nothing but grossification of light, vibration and sound (hindi: ham jyoti, spandan aur dhwani ka hi ghat swaroop hain). Any one would like to share their thoughts? I agree Vyasji, Yoga Vashsitha is a jem of all jems!!! If one really understands it, one will know that nothing actually exist!!! humble regards, always at Thy Mayaavi Feet Manjula Patel--------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Here is the Ultimate Subject, The LIGHT of all lights. Pujya Swamiji's most profound message yet!This Light is what we ARE, not what is lighted, the body-mind-world! See it is not theoretical at all, is our experience as these words are written and read! Please, please!Swamiji says once this discrimination between Vasudeva, the Light, the imperishable, and Sarvam, the lighted, the perishables takes place, Realization of Vasudeva Servam also takes place! What it means that lighted objects considered as separate objects are perishables due to their existence in time-space causality, but when Lighted are see as One totality(which is our innermost experience), they are ONE Light, Non-dual! Our problem is we give thus lighted and illumined objects reality and get attached or resist them, while the Illuminator, the Only Reality, ISNESS gets IGNORED!Then he says: "There is nothing to be done. There is no description of this experience. It simply IS. Absolute stillness." Note here as he says, no description, only EXPERIENCE! In the vedantic text called Panchdashi, the entire chapter 10 "Natak Deepah" or "Lamp of the theater stage" is devoted to illustrate this point!This post is an expression of my appreciation, gratitude and Pranaam to Swamiji! I hope Sadhakas will be helped tremendously upon serious contemplation! Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt----------------- Hari Om Agreed Jee ! But theory has its own beauty, particularly when it emanates straight from Holy Scriptures. Oh ! What a bliss Yoga Vaashishtha brings to the Sadhak. The objects seen in dream were only creations of mind, where seen, seeing and seer- all was mind only. That is considered as the mind which is the form of the Infinite Principle (tattwa) of the Self, the all-powerful Supreme Spirit, created by its power of thought or will (sankalpa) ! The Supreme Consciousness, excited by the powers of movement in the form of space and time and pusuing imagination, attains to the position of grasping things. This vibration or movement is of the nature of imagination of objects. This Supreme Consciousness flows forth by itself, imagining objects which have gone beyond its nature. Itself having faded all around , it is enfeebled. That is considered as MIND. The Consciousness which is associated with objects imagined is declared as comprehension or grasping of ideas. That state of Consciousness which is intent on objects is considered as the sprout of imagination. Consciousness, thinking of objects perceived as if they are distinct from itself, attains to the state of imagination, like a seed attaining to the state of a sprout !! Vasudeva and the world are one and real. The One is existing as the Many and the whole appears not to be so. The Pure is spread as Impure. That which is not void (Paramatma) appears as void (world) and the void is manifested as non void. That which is large is like a thing which is not large and the one which is not expanded qppears like one expanded. That which is immutable appears LIKE ONE LIABLE TO CHANGE. The one which is equal and calm appears like one disturbed. The real one is INVISIBLE like a non existent thing. Only THAT has risen like one which is not THAT !! The undivided one appears like divided. THE ONE WHICH IS NOT INACTIVE HAS BECOME LIKE ONE WHICH IS INERT. Though unknowable, it appears as one having the nature of the known. Without parts, it is shining like one with parts. He who is not "I" appears like I. One without destruction appears as one which is perishable.Though free from Maya (illusion), it is like the stainless sun with a circular orb of illusory rays. Know that Brahman as the Lord of the Wise, as you know the great ocean as the lord of the waters !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---- Dear sadaks,Question: How to not see the world (inert, temporary), and instead see ONLY God ? (Sansaar ne dikhkar, kewal Paramatma Kaise dikhey?) May this be a little bit of message for clarity.Sukh Brama was walking away from his father Veda Vyas. His father was following his son. In a pond there were woman bathing clotheslines. As Sukh was walking along they never even bothered. But when his father Ved Vyas walking the woman raped themselves in clothes. Ved Vyas aasked these woman, "Why are you woman clothing looking at me? My son is teen ager and you woman neglect him. " Woman answered, ' Saint Vyasji it is your first cause that because you are asking this question, that is you see us and yourself as 2 objects. While Sukhji see the trees around, birds of air, prakurthi and us with NO differance. Sukhji see Sarvam Para Bramam. One and the only one. ''Sadaks, seeing, hearing, talking etc should not be attached in mind level as objects of pleasures. Eyes can see but mind should be tuned to Neti (Negate) the objects on earth, such that mind should cast eagerness to see Guru, Parents, Bagavan. Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Shri HariVery interesting idea "Light of all Lights" message from world to divinityRam Ram Pawan Singhal -------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Some posts of Sadhakas seemed theoretical to Shashikalaji! However, these posts echo Advaita Vedanta, a rare Gem of Seers of Truth! With all the respects, to some of us, this is the most practical as it addresses the ignorance at its core. There are many approaches to Truth, some simple and some not-so-simple depending upon sadhakas.Why not we share what we understand by putting them on this platform and let all take a look and decide for themselves with open mind. Many aspects of Gita and Swamiji's teachings are preparatory in nature to make us eligible to receive the Ultimate Subject, our true nature! For example, advice such as "don't get attached to world, give up doership/enjoyership, Don't think bad of anyone" etc find extraordinary meanings and get implemented naturally when one understands one is not an individual one thinks one is. All attachments are inherent in the individual, not in the world objects, as any separate entity finds the need to defend its interests at any cost even if its unfair to other such individuals. Strange as it may sound, we don't have any proof we are such autonomous individuals! "I am this body and so and so..." is just a false belief taken real, and we kill each other if we have to for this belief! Also the doer we assume ourselves to be is really the "skill, know-how, knowledge etc" stored as intellect that we identify with all our life without questioning, taking as I, the doer. See this intellect is also given to us! It is losing sight of this truth and keep trying to be free of doership. Seeing the truth of this liberates from doership while doing karmas! Otherwise we keep fighting to get rid of perceived doer with believed doer!Neti, Neti approach is not just talk, nor complex! We make it complex by not giving it a try!In this approach, we are asked to see that anything and everything known by mind is defined in space-time imposing attributes, etc thus making them limited, and therefore, it cannot be Iti, Iti or Vasudeva being Unlimited!Upon deep understanding, mind gives up all attempts to hold THAT, naturally, and thus in the emptiness of such mind Vsudeva invites Himself in and takes the reins of that carriage becoming its charioteer!The point is that if our mind is simple enough like that of famous Bhaktas, like Meera, Devotion path may sound simple, and if we are given to inquiry, let it be so! Ultimately its the mind that needs to be Silent on its own as it cannot be made silent by dismissing it when it wants to know answers! Samadhan - "Understanding with satisfaction" plays a major role in silence of the mind than even Samadhi, if mind is asking and asking!Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om That which is constant at the beginning and the end is called Real. What is Real at the beginning and end, is only real when existing at present. What doesn't exist at the beginning and the end, is so at the present also. Of what nature could the reality be, of a thing that does not exist at the beginning and the end? There is no destruction at any time of that which exists. The delusion of the world is of the mind. It is neither Real nor Unreal ! It is not born; and it has risen like a conjuring trick, (causing illusory perceptions) of a number of minds. The same illusion may be seen by a number of persons due to illusion. Therefore, this objective world is not real at any time; nor is it unreal. It is neither real nor unreal as the delusion of a snake in a rope. It has risen like the illusion of dreams and shines like a false idea. The wealth of magic constituting the world is very much exhibited or spread here by mind, as a moving wave, though unreal, is exhibited by a river caused by heat (mirage), as if it were real. Unreal on account of its instability and real on account of its appearance or perception, the world WHICH IS A PROJECTION OF THOUGHT, is of the nature of both reality and unreality as a dream is. As pearl necklaces, feathers of peacock's tail, balls of hair and the like seen in the sky are unreal, but have become reality for those WITH A DEFECTIVE VISION, so, the world appears to those with defective vision. This is only unreality resembling reality and is an appearance. It is uncreated, yet experienced ! It is not Real but EXISTS as reality. Next: Firm Belief of Mind (Sankalpa) Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Beautiful are Expressions of Truth, Itself remaining INEXPRESSIBLE!Many are its Manifestations, Itself remaining ONE Unmanifest!The Essence of Everything and Anything and Nothing!It is heartening to read posts by Vyasji, Nagaji, Narinderji, Moderatorji, Mike, Sathyanarayanji, all sharing the same Wisdom in their own ways! I shared the same understanding hoping it answered Vyasji's tough questions, though not as eloquently!It is a real joy to get booster shots! I thank you all sadhakas! Consciousness, THAT, SELF, THE ABSOLUTE, BELOVED KRISHNA of BG ALL ONE REALITY, DIVINITY! Vasudeva in guise of everything and anything!As Vyasji put it, This is the ultimate subject!To that I would add: And That ultimate Subject is "I". That Sat-Chit-Anand appears(feels/thinks) as "I", the body-mind, I call "me/mine", you call "you/yours", we call "us/ours"! What a trick the magician is playing!Let us unfold it, right now, not later!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt --Jai Hanuman I don't believe in 'theoritical' types of talks. Swamiji also insisted upon simple down to earth conduct. Vyasji appears to be in theoritical mode suddenly. Ok ! He has right to do so ! May be that is necessary too ! But to my mind, practical is more important. Hence here is practical talk on the subject. There are 2 things. Read last Sadhak Message of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj . One- BG 2:16 ! Two- BG 7:19 ! How to 'realise' - Vasudeva Sarvam- BG 7:19 ? Every thing is 'thou and thou' only ! How ? How?? Don't understand any one to be bad ! Don't do bad to any one !! Don't wish bad for any one !!! If you see any one indulging in evil thoughts/ deeds/ desires- think : God is playing as per Time - Kaliyuga !! Conduct yourself carefully- as per order of God- BG 2:47 ! But from inside your heart never consider any one to be bad ! Enough Jee ! Enough !! Why to be so complex? Be that, if that helps complexity loving Sadhaks ! Why this 'NETI ..NETI' lecture? There is ONLY one existing. 'NETI NETI' is BG 2:16 ! Sure ! But is BG 7:19 clear? NETI NETI ! Why such big talk? Baba ! Simple ! Do objects seen in dream exist in reality ? No ! So long as dream was there, they 'appeared' real ! Where are they now? Who made/ created them? MIND Jee, Mind ! Throw mind into the dust bin ! Where is the world now ? Where are objects ? What NETI NETI ? Why ? Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala --- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om On the subject of Vasudeva Sarvam (7:19) or Nasato Vidyate Bhavah (2:16)- main Qis how objects / world do not exist at all? Do we not directly experience theworld ? How to negate that? The fact is that this world is the expansion of Brahman. The triple world iswithin consciousness. Brahman alone appears as the world. The universe createdby Brahma is mental. Brahma has a body consisting only of thought. Hence Brahmais known in the Scriptures as Cosmic Mind. The imagination of objects is of thenature of mere appearance or illusion of Absolute Consciousness. That indeed is described by the word Jeeva ( embodied/individual soul) which isthe natural throb of the pure sky of Consciousness. As there is movement of wind, the hotness of fire or the coldness of ice, so there is Jeevahood of the Self. That Self Principle ( or the Absolute Consciousness) , which is not limited byspace, time etc takes a body held in space and time, through its own power andONLY OUT OF SPORT ! ( Ekaki na ramate ). The Self is spontaneously perceived ,as if it were another, only by itself. When Self produces the energy calledthinking ( or imagination) like wind its power of motion, then, the universalSelf becomes the mind consisting of grasping of thoughts, appearing as it weredifferently, manifesting its form of its own accord. THUS , THE ABSOLUTE CONSCIOUSNESS, IMAGINING ITSELF AS DIFFERENT BY NATURE, GOESAS IT WERE TO THE STATE OF OTHERNESS BY ITSELF , IN THE FORM OF ITS OWN ERROR (i e , such imagination). As the same man indeed becomes another in a moment on account of anger , so, theone of the nature of Pure Consciousness , has gone to the state of otherness,having the stain of error/imagination. For him who considers this collection of rays of solar light as different fromthe Sun, this is indeed different, as it were, from the Sun !!! (Other examples-Gold/Bracelet; Water/Wave; Fire/flame; ) To be contd. In the meantime let there be deliberations/focussed and brief onthe subject / material shared so far. Even Moderators have requested ALL Sadhaksto whole heartedly participate. I will answer each and every question on thesubject. Start asking Qs (on shared material) as I continue taking thedeliberations forward. This is ULTIMATE subject ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B-------------------------------There is nothing else besides Vasudeva, is this sentiment that Bhagwaan hasexpressed mainly for a bhakta (loving devotee)? If you want me to answer this question … "The Truth is everything" is the fact -no matter whether it is told or not, whether it is told to somebody or everybodyor nobody, whether anybody receives it or not, whether anybody accepts it ordisputes it … the very statement covers everything with absolutely noexceptions. But, one who receives the message earnestly is invariably a Bhaktain essence. Isn't so? THAT does not address anybody in particular ... yet,anybody, no matter what, is elligible and capable of approaching THAT! NETI means "anything is not THAT" ... it does not mean "THAT is not anything".THAT is anything and everything. But, nothing can be THAT in isolation as TheTruth cannot be multiple. This results in Mano Naasha (annihilation ofsubjective identity) - that is what I tried to mean in the beginning of myoriginal utterances. But, an individual cannot fathom what THAT means thanks to its self-rooted,self-promoted and self-protected confinement camps called identities. The fellowhelplessly insists the images collected as its identities as "the only reality".It does not mean that The Truth could be excluded even in such ignorance - THATincludes everything without saying. But, the ignorant cannot fathom thewonderful experience of the Universal Presence as it cannot break open itscocoons of ignorance in terms of its beleifs and doubts, desires and fears, andlikes and dislikes. The only way to entice the ignorant to break open itscocoons is to suggest the opposite (NETI) of its beliefs rather strongly. Whenthe deeprooted beliefs are negated strongly, there is a positive chance that onewould look into one's self-proclaimed identities to come out with ajustification. As every image that the ignorant brings out in support, "TheNETI" stands against smashing the images one after the other burning down theignorance hoarded in terms of the images within. When all the images areannihilated, one can experience The Absolute. Unless the individual can fathombeyond the cocoons of beliefs, "Vasudevah Sarvam", The Absolute remains a notionin one's mind. NETI helps breaking all the beliefs helping us attain The Truth. When "NETI" hints upon The Truth, then, "NETI" means "NOT JUST THIS" and not"NOT THIS" … as we apply such an appreciation in our lives, Vasudeva blooms toITS infinitude breaking all the barriers we have gathered. This results in AatmaBodha (Universal Awareness). That is what I tried to mean later in my originalutterances. Anything IS THAT, but anything trapped in a perceived domain is NOT - meaning,"do not limit your appreciation to anything as such … let it flow freelyencompassing the whole universe and beyond … do not confine yourself to anyfigment even if it is the whole universe itself … then, there is an opportunityto witness The Vasudeva, The Lord of All. In fact, "Vasudevah Sarvam" itself is a discriminative notion that is requiredtill the contradictions of real and unreal loom around in one's existence. Once,all the unreal is mitigated, real does not make sense either. Just like "You areeating" is a meaningless statement to the one who is already eating, "VasudevahSarvam" is a meaningless statement to a Prahlada who is already THAT. As Swamijisays, such a natural presence wherein both real and unreal loose their dominionsis "Vasudevah Sarvam" (REFER below). Om Tat Sat! Respects.Naga Narayana. Excerpts from "Sahaja Nivritti" from Sadhan Sudha Sindhu: Asat ko satta denese hee nivritt (sahaja-nivritt) aur praapt (swatah-praapt) -ye do vibhag kahe jaate hai. Asatko satta na de to na nivritt hai, na praapthai, pratyut sattamaatr jyon-ki-tyon hai. Dusare shabdon me, jabtak asatki sattahai, tabtak vivek hai. Asatki satta mitneper vivek hee tattvagnyaanme parinat hojaata hai; kyonki jab asatki satta hai hee nahi, to phir sat hee shesh rahega.Iseeko Geetane "Vasudevah Sarvam" kahaa hai. The distinction between the real (the ever-attained) and the unreal (theever-departing) remains only because one provides importance to the unreal. Oncethe unreal becomes insignificant in one's perception, there is neitherattainable nor unattainable, but mere presence as such. In other words, thediscrimination is present (and required) only till there are traces of theunreal. Once the unreal is annihilated at its core, the same discriminationmatures into realization because, when there is no unreal at all, everything isnothing but the mere presence of all, The Truth, The Sat. This is referred to as"Vasudevah Sarvam" in the Bhagavadgita. PS: Original Hindi version is given, in case, there is any misgivings in itsenglish version. Respects. Naga. --------------------------------Dear Sadaks,Everything is that a worldly man desires. No matter how much wealth, fame, onemay have but a little more. A millionaire, then a multimillionaire, 1st richestman on earth Etc.Anything is for realized one. Anything on earth is Vasudev Swaroop-Poornathuvam, nothing beyond and permanent. So the Gyani cannot have 2 differentthings, he sees Vasudeva Sarvam.Ordinary man sees another person Mr/Mrs X by looks, by his dress, by his wealthEtc. But Gyani sees the same Mr.X inside that illumines is Paramathuma. All theexternal features of Mr.X is unseen.Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan------------------------------- THE NATURE AND EXPERIENCE OF ISNESS ( The essence ) One day, of Krishna , Govinda, Satguru, I asked,O KrishnaGovinda, my Love,Satguru, my Being, pray let me know,What is Realisation?Realisation, answered Krishna , is the IS-NESS of all that ISAnd Beloved, implored within me, What is my IS-NESS ?I cannot say, I cannot tell,Govinda smiled, But IS-NESS happened, it just happened !The Gift of my SatguruAndTime was no more,Nor Space,Nor speech, nor silence,Only ISNESS.In the Eternity of the MomentThe giving of the GiftThe receiving of the GiftNo Giver, No Reciever,Only ISNESS. In the Eternity of the MomentSilence that IS.In the Eternity of the MomentThe Soundless Sound.In the Eternity of the MomentThe One Word.In the Eternity of the MomentThe expansion of the Word, The Vedas.In the Eternity of the MomentAll movement, the World, the Universe.In the Eternity of the MomentTotal stillness, Void,Full-ness absolute.In the Eternity of the MomentOnly IS-NESS.Only IS-NESS, just Is-ness!Only the Giving, only the ReceivingSans Giver, Sans ReceiverOnly IS-NESS.Only IS-NESSOnly gratitudeOnly Loving, choiceless lovingOnly One-ness, Not- two-ness foreverOf the seeker and his Guru, ONlY IS-NESS. AUMnarinder bhandari---------------------------PRIOR POSTING Q: When there is nothing else besides Vasudeva, then where is thequestion of IS NOT? is unclear.... I agree ... there is no room for "IS NOT" ever. THAT IS CORRECT. TheAsat by its very nature is "unreal" and hence "non-existent" on itsown. How can a non-existent be anything at all?! That is nothing butnothing!! The "IS NOT" is just a figment of our imagination when we try tocontain everything that we perceive within the boundaries of ourcognition. The very presence of "IS NOT" just reminds us that we areNOT in The Vignyaana but trapped within our cognitive dependence.Till cognitive dependence rules, whatever perceived DOES NOT LOOK LIKE "SAT",THE REAL to a true seeker - because, the cognition keepschanging the perceived perpetually. It is in this context, all thewise saints say "NETI" ... "IS NOT" is a necessity for seeking Truthtill Asat leaves no traces in our presence. That is the onlyfool-proof way of realizing our ignorance in believing the limitedcognitive perception itself as "the reality". Once the Asat ismitigated encore, ONLY SAT stays, ONLY VIGNYAANA remains, ONLY TRUTHprevails. Applying the essence of appreciation backwards in our dailylife, one would then say that "the so-called Asat" is also THATalone.That means, "The Asat" is non-existent whether we acknowledge or not.Such an understanding can come only after attaining the Tattva. To start with ... under dominion of the discrimination anythingperceived cannot be THE COMPLETE as the preception leaves outinfinitude beyond itself. But once The Absolute is attained, THATalone is prevalent in everything. The very notion of the Asat ismitigated encore and hence one need not verify anything as Satanymore. My most favorite example for this is from Swamiji("Bhagavattattva" in Sadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga): For a mundane person, the Asat is as crisp and clear as a solid linedrawn on a solid rock (NETI is extremely necessary here).For a truthful seeker of truth, in the beginning, it becomes like aline drawn on sand (Still NETI remains important for progress).For a truth seeker in whom the wisdom has bloomed, its is like a linedrawn on water (NETI fades away as the SAT prevails).For a Tattvagnya who is permanently established in The Vignyaana thatSwamiji refers to, the Asat, the unreal is truly as unreal andillusive as a line drawn in space ... IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST! Thenwhere is the question of IS NOT when we contemplate on "VaasudevahSarvam"? You are right ... then ... "IS NOT" is absolutelyirrelevant; IS alone is relevant as well as prevalent. As you correctly pointed out in your note, most of us (at least I amclear about myself) are NOT EVEN FIT to talk about THAT as I amnowhere near THAT ... ONLY REALIZED ONES such as Swamiji can talk onsuch matter. However, if I have to contemplate on such an idea, I AMBOUND TO BE TRUTHFUL TO THE IDEA RECEIVED IN AS MUCH CLARITY ANDTRANSPARENCY AS POSSIBLE - THAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY. As Swamiji sayswhile teaching us how to apply discrimination ("Vibhaga Yoga", inSadhan Sudha Sindhu, Gnyaana Yoga), we should adapt the truthfulappreciation that we perceive in the realized ones truthfully ... atleast while contemplating on THAT if not all the time! That is my limited understanding on this. If you want more, I amafraid, the only way is to invoke The Swamiji and such realized onesin our contemplation ... it is a wonderful journey of perpetualremoval of the debris (the unreal) hoarded within ... That is all Ican share on this ... Thank You. Respects. Naga Narayana--------------------------Shree HariRam Ram Nagaji, you say - wise saints say "NETI" ... "IS NOT" is a necessity for seekingTruth. Does that mean "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19), "I am Being (sat,real) and Non-being (asat, unreal) both." There is nothing else besidesVasudeva, is this sentiment that Bhagwaan has expressed mainly for a bhakta(loving devotee)? Sarvottamji,Swamiji has spoken to you about Vasudeva Sarvam, can you provide your insightson what is meant by "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19). All sadhaks welcome toshare on Gita 9:19. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------------------------- Thank you, Naga Narayana jee............ ISNESS narinder bhandari---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING "Vasudeva SarvamEverything is Paramatma (God)" is the ultimate ofall knowledge. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj calls this tobe "Vigyaan" and balance all to be "Gyaan" ! What a wonderful statement! We most often jump aroundconsidering "Gnyaana" itself as "Vignyaana"!! Brihadaaranyaka(4.2.12) makes an acute observation on this. Yagnyavalkya concludesthat, "No gnyaana can ever be present in Moksha". Everything is THATVIGNYAANA alone. He calls IT "Vignyaanaghana" - purest essence ofall intelligence. We often get carried away by our informativerelational rationale to address the same. Vasudeva includes everything ... there is no room outside Him. Pl.refer to Vishwarupa Darshana Yoga. HE includes Duryodhana and thegang as much as the Yudhishthira and the gang. HE includes the mostpowerful of all as much as the weakest of all. HE includes therichest as much as the poorest. No parameter in any dimension canever outrange HIM! The discrimination and rationale can rule onlythe domain of Gnyaana ... not The Vignyaana. Again, it is an opinion projected through the mechanism ofGnyaana ... therefore, pl. treat it just that way. Respects. Naga Narayana---------------------------- MEW POSTING Vasudevah Sarvam - The Essence of ALL The essence of everything is THAT, The Absolute. The Matter IS THAT, but some matter trapped in a perceived body isNOT. The Energy IS THAT, but some energy trapped in a packet of matter is NOT.The Action IS THAT, but an action trapped in a packet of matter andenergy is NOT.The Thought IS THAT, but a thought trapped in an action is NOT.The Experience IS THAT, but an experience trapped in a thought isNOT.The Happiness IS THAT, but a happiness trapped in an experience isNOT. The Essence of all the joys ISThe Essence of all the experiences ISThe Essence of all the thoughts ISThe Essence of all the actions ISThe Essence of all the bodies ISThe Essence of all the energy ISThe Essence of all the matter IS... ... ...The essence of anything IS... ... ...The essence of everything ISThe Essence of ALL.The Absolute.The Truth. Vasudevah Sarvam. Respects.Naga Narayana--------------------------Shree HariRam RamNaga Narayanaji, Some further clarity needed on second note. IfEverything is Vasudeva (Gita 7:19), then is there a "is Not" assuch? "Sadsacchaahamarjun." (Gita 9:19), "I am Being (sat, real) andNon-being (asat, unreal) both." When there is nothing else besidesVasudeva, then where is the question of IS NOT? is unclear....From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram-------------------------- Sadhakas, Namaste!It is a great privilege to be part of this wisdom platform sharingwith each other and learning along the way by bringing inexperiences in light of scriptural injunctions or pointers fromspiritual teachers! As Vyasji put it, then, we can have moremeaningful deliberations.With deep respects and divine friendship, I would answer thequestions posed by Vyasji as best as I can through the words. Itwill be better to break them in different posts.1. How can we experience undivided Consciousness at the outset?We do experience as such, it is just not noticed that way.Consciousness appears to be divided as many objects, split secondlater, after initial perception. Consciousness cannot be divided,only seems to be so like a movie characters seem to divide ONElight. Attraction for the seen objects distracts us from the non-divisible SEER of all objects!If one notices one doesn't see a particular object initially, onesees as if the view in front of our eyes is totally enveloped in thespace surrounding it, as if in the ocean of space, we see waves offorms, upon initial perceptions by senses as raw sensations. Thisocean of space itself is in the ocean of Consciousness, so to speak,as only a Conscious Being can perceive such space. However, thoughtarises "I see a chair there". Notice, when this is said, the time ofinitial perception is elapsed, so our recognizing a particularobject is in time-space fabric, an integral part of the thought "Isee a chair", chair being from past memory! By the time werecognize, it is already past, as all such thoughts are. We cannever know the separate objects without such thoughts and when weknow they are past. Object-thoughts are like waves in the Ocean ofConsciousness, so all objects including body we call ours arethoughts-Consciousness in our actual experience. The statement "Isee a chair" is not our experience in this sense, but isconceptualization of wholeness of experience for the sake oflanguage. Only seeing which is being conscious of, is experiential,I-thought as individual is identification with body-mind ofConsciousness and Chair-thought is memory. THAT Which isexperiential is always with us, and is Consciousness Itself, whereas experiences of objects as thoughts are fleeting!It is, as though, from Totality of view in front of us, we areextracting each object by offering it space and time to exist in ourthoughts-mind, in what seems to be division into many objects.Please see this fact: our thoughts manifest objects! When we are notconscious of objects, they remain non-manifest as in deep sleep!As this part of our experience is not noticed and deeplycontemplated upon, we see only separate objects and forgetting thatseparate objects are in mind as thoughts in terms of words(namesbeing time dimension and shape being space dimension).Also it is to be noticed that these objects are Consciousness ofthem, totally subjective in nature because objects don't participatein our re-cognition of them. No objects tells us what it is, only wecall them this or that. If we call cat a dog, or dog a cat, nothinghappens to them intrinsically. In otherwords, dog is true onlyrelative to everything else we know that is "not dog-like". Thus allnames are dependent on our agreement to call them as such so we canfunction and discriminate relatively, it is just a pragmatism only.A dog or any name for that matter is not absolute truth of theobject as referred to by that name. In absolute Truth everythinghas to be undivided, and nameless ONE which we call Existence, Is-ness intrinsic to all objects, and is referred to as SELF, Atman inthe context of sentient beings meaning Existence that knows Itself,self-evident Light of Consciousness, Being is "consciousness ofbeing" and consciousness is "being". Sat is Chit and Chit is Sat andis everyone's experience all the time even if not noticed as in deepsleep! And "we" are THAT Absolutely!This is Vedanta proclamation!PS: Consciousness as I used it above is THAT Absolute Existencewhich perceives through each body-mind all objects, while ITSELFremaining non-perceivable ever through senses and mind. However, itis ever present, deep rooted PRESENCE in us of Existence by whichall else is known. IT is the ultimate Knowingness! It is our True I,we, they, all such pronouns, we use for ourselves, but are taken asindividuals.Finally all such words including Consciousness too are concepts, butuseful to point to TRUTH, which can only be pointed to our BEING-NESS!This may answer some questions, more later...Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!More on Vyasji's questions: Pardon me, I have to repeat some points,no choice!We cannot experience the world "out there", means the world we thinkis external to us by thinking our body ends at the surface of outerskin. The world and body appear in our Consciousness as perceptions,so we only experience our perceptions of world, and body."Body" is name given to being conscious of sensations, feelings ofpains, discomforts, sensual pleasures etc, Such body is "my body" isalso due to identification with such feelings and sensations callingit "me", and is thus not experiential.If all these are seen as appearances in Consciousness, and knowinglyidentify with Consciousness as I, the seer of all that is "seen",the discrimination happens. Next the world and body experiencedinwardly is found to be consisting of Consciousness only. Then onecan say "I am not this body, but this body, along with all otherbodies, are in "ME" as Consciousness, All bodies are mine! This iswhat Vasudevah Sarvam to me. This is because anything oneexperiences is at once at a zero distance from Consciouseness!Our connection to the apparent world and body is only through thisConsciousness, Chaitanya! For instance, a thought about a chairoriginates, is sustained and dissolves in us without ever touchingthe outside chair! So chair we experioence is chair-thought only,not the chaor in itself!Everything as a whole is Divine SELF, not an individual body takenexclusively as mine! The body, mind and the World are in ME asKrishna says, but I am not in them if taken as individual objects.Now the real outside world in and of itself cannot be named asseparate objects, because then it is from the mind-names-forms only.This nameless reality is Brahman, The absolute, THAT, Ishwara, orwhatever name we give,is in reality nameless or all names are only HIS names! IF we nameobjects, then, from mind only we can do so, and thus ones isrelative to others. No named object can stand on its own leg asabsolute truth, it needs the legs of others to stand and validateit. Oneness is Reality of experience and the separate objects areconcepts and thus to be discriminated for what its worth based onpragmatism!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt-------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Meditation continues in the form of answers to Vyasji's questionswith deep appreciation!Hopefully last two posts with this one cover most of the remainingones from no 3 onward!When I refer to we or I or any pronouns it means Consciousness orAtman that we are, the only Reality. However, we need to refer to usindividually for communication purpose and many practical reasons.In this spirit it is Consciousness as Sadhakas are questioning andanswering!Anything we know is Consciousness knowing Itself only becauseultimate Knower is THAT as us, and what is known are appearances assuch made up of thoughts as mind and feelings as bodily sensations,all perceived objects!Consciousness-Atman is the experience of Conscious Existence,indwelling Presence, Isness, and is self evident, no other knowerneeded to know this Presence or ISNess.It is not a state, or attribute. It is what it IS! As said before,It perceives only Itself as undivided(God sees everything God only,to God there is not everything else). This is said to emphasize theself-effulgence, self-luminous aspect, not attribute. ThisPerception is the whole and not time-space bound so it is notcreated, nor destroyed. However, when we separate It as objects byconceiving through thoughts in time-space fabric, specific objectthus conceived can end in time, but its Beingness cannot bedestroyed as it belongs to Totality from which it emerged and intowhich it dissolves!When I use "We perceive", I mean we as Consciousness perceives andendows mind to conceive objects so that Leela can go on! We manifesteverything out of ONE thing by conceiving through mind this Totalityjust as spider weaves web out of itself and then winds it in itself!This is our freedom to be Individual too!Can another object perceive? no, object itself is perceived. OnlyConsciousness being chaitanya perceives.By Perception, I mean raw sensations-data that sense-complex in thepresence of Atman seems to produce as Consciousness of ????.Conception is what I call perceptions resolved as objects with mind-intellect and when such mind assumes itself as knower, it isEGO/Jeeva, considering it as separate reality of beig subject apartfrom Real KNOWER!Nature of objects perceived/conceived are thus experienced by usonly as Consciousness, but we equate such objects with outsideobjects for which we have no direct knowledge. We only experienceour perceptions of the world which are subjective only, never theworld itself! In otherwords, world cannot be perceived independentof Consciousness in our experience!The way I use "experience" is that it is discrete, has beginningwith objects perceived as thoughts/feelings and end only to replacewith another such objects. "Experiential" to me, is that which iscontinuous, never begins or ends, is subjective in nature but freeof attributes of pairs of opposites, shines attributes-gunas ofobjects, always present as background or substratum of allappearances. It is Consciousness that IS or Brahman!Perceived and Perceiving Consciousness-Atman are same in the sensethat waves are perceived while ocean is perceiving Itself. For thepurpose of Leela, play, or Maya principle Consciousness forgets andconsiders appearances as Real until It chooses to end the game insome apparent birth and returns Home apparently as It never leftHome! Maya is not a problem, to consider it as Real is the problem!I think these answers questions on the path starting with oneself toreach ONE SELF, from SakshiBhav to SarvatmBhav, from "me" to ME,from personal being to Impersonal BEING and finally feel VasudevSarvam!I remain open to further dialogues!Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt-PRIOR POSTINGHari Om Pratapji ! I am sorry inspite of making efforts , I could notunderstand a lot of your Article. Hence I humbly seek elucidation byyou on the first part of your article.. That should make thedeliberations more productive, and fruitful, at least morecomprehensible. I seek your forgiveness for being of dullerintellect. Hope you will bless me with answers : 1 How do you say at the outset that we all areexperiencing "undivided consciousness"? Are we really ? I thought weare experiencing 'individual consciousness' only whichmeans 'divided' and not 'undivided' ! 2 You said : We can never experience "world out there including ourown body" in itself, as absolute truth. Out where? Why can't we experience the body as truth? Is not almostentire humanity experiencing the body as Self? For what Scripturesare struggling, otherwise? How it is relative? Relative to what?Where is the Q of absolute or relative Truth in "experiencing" ? "Initself" means in " which self" ? What is "itself" ? 3 You said: We just know it as perceptions,the essence of which isConsciousness / Awareness /IS- NESS(Only Consciousness perceives). We know what as perception ? Who is knowing? Who is that "we"? Whatis IS-NESS ? Is it a state / attribute or the ONLY thing ? If it isan attribute then there must be an experiencer also ? If there is noexperiencer then of what avail are the statements made by you sofrequently such as "we experience, perceiver, perceived, we" etc ?How can consciousness ( chetana) in itself perceive? Perceive whatwhen there is nothing except that ONLY existing? 4 Thus perceived objects are made up of the same stuff-Vastu,Consciousness, as we experience them inthe moments of preceptions and are ONE WHOLEness, not separateobjects. Who is the experiencer( We) ? Is there any or there is "IS NESSONLY" sans experiencer? How objects are same as IS NESS ? "THUS"means what? What have you stated in previous two/three sentences ormore which makes you to conclude that nature of objects is same asthat of "us" ? Too fast a conclusion , Sir ? Please state the basisfor such conclusion ! Can objects also experience or perceive ? Doobjects exist? If yes, then do they have same property as "we" (inyour words) have? If no, where is the Q their being ONE with wholeor having same property as "we" have ? Is "Consciousness" sentientor inert? Or neither of them? Where is the need for discriminationif both are sentient or both are inert ? Where is the need forScriptures- if both YOGA and BHOGA are same? 5 You said: Can we see that perceived and Perceiver are the same? What is your view? Are they same? If yes, how? If no, why not? Ifperceived, perception, and perceiver are same, then how the Q oftheir being same or not arises? Where does it arise?In whom does it arise? If they are not same, how there is ONE only ? 6 So essentially everything and anything is ONE experientially. "Experientially" - of whose experience, Pratapji ? How you havesaid "essentially"? Is it so ? What makes them ONE experientially?Are we experiencing that? Is their any EXPERIENCER of that state ofIS NESS (existence) or not ? Yes or No !! Pratapji ! Consider me as Devil's Advocate only and respond so thatall may benefit - SATSANGA !! Beauty lies there !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------Dear Sadaks,Contemplate on Sant Jadabharat in Srimat Bagavath talking to kingRaguguna on palanquin,saying "Oh king Raguguna, for me the palanquin, you and me are oneand the same from same earth". Can Sadaks pass their views in crisp.If everything and anything is same, where comes the question of SriKrishna telling Arjuna to wage war with Kauravas. Here Arjuna is oneand the other is Kauravas. But essence of everything and anything iscorrect. HOW?Jai Sri KrishanaB.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!I really appreciate Mike and Shashikalaji for their feedback andresponse. It helps my own understanding really as it works as abooster shot! I relate to what Mike said while reading Ch 11 andappreciate it too in the same spirit.Let me answer the question raised by Shashikalaji! First of all myrespects to her as she was the instrumental in making me share thispost!In the beginning, we are told by Scriptures or Realized souls likeSwamiji, you are not body-mind-sense complex, you are sentient andthe world being inert. So disidentify with such objects as they areperishable while you are Imperishable Atman or Consciousness! Whendeeply contemplated, "you"(?) take your stand as Witnessing Presencewithin, relative to everything being witnessed(SakshiBhav). This isessential first step, The crown jewel of Discrimination(vivekchudamani) between what one is, Atman, Conscious Being, andeverything witnessed, and both are apart. That which isperceived/conceived(body-mind-world) is distinct from all PerceivingConsciousness or Awareness. However, this is still relative truthas you are witness only relative to witnessed!Now comes Vasudev Sarvam or SarvatmaBhav! As you may appreciate bylooking openly at our inner experience at the time of perceptions itis NEVER that of separate objects.It is one Wholeness because one sees so many objects and spacecontaining them including one's own body, all at once. This is as ifin a pitch dark room one sees only dense-mass of darkness, onecannot even see one's own body! All of a sudden light is turned onand one sees separate objects as if they are materialized fromoneness of darkness surrounding them. Similarly we separate andconceive objects when we think "this is chair, this is table, thisis another person, this is me etc. These very thoughts of ours havetime and space embaded in them(Actually Consciousness creates time-space through us) so they help conceive separate objects we arefamiliar with outside. Nevertheless, they are experienced assubjective thoughts of those objects which we think are outsideindependently, not true. Such thoughts are Consciousness shaped upas those objects in all our exoeriences, just as water is shaped aswaves in the ocean.In other words, an object has to be one with Consciousness in orderfor it to be experienced by us, Conscious Being! So all we reallyexperience is Consciousness itself as body-mind and world. There isnothing else in our experience other than Consciousness, Reality,ISNESS! This very Consciousness is Absolute Existence, oneHomogeneous mass, so to speak, experientially! IT is what weeseentially are, and It is not personal, is shared by each body-mind! As a matter of fact there is nothing personal in the entirecosmos! We are like a window for Absolute to see through us andenjoy ITSELF as World(leela)!This is Vasudev Sarvam! All there is is this Consciousness, Brahman!So when we say objects don't have existence, it means separateobjects don't exist as they appear to be independent of ourexistence, however, Absolute Existence or BEINGNESS never ceases tobe disguised as diversity, the meaning of BG Ch 2:16.No one has ever experienced world in itself, it has been alwaysthrough being Conscious and as Consciousness. In and of itselfeverything is ONE UNDIVIDED BEINGNESS which Consciousness!Thus we deal with relative objects based on how they appear in ourmiinds, likes and dislikes due to conditioned by such objects takenreal!However, with this understanding Relative world of objects arediscriminated properly as you have suggested, and the biggest helpis that we don't get attached to them and fall apart.Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari- Dear Pratap Bhatt, I read your article several times, and it made me think deeply, thatis really good. It reminded me of things I meditated on, discussedand even experienced and so on. My mind went to Bhagavad Gita Ch.11 the revelation of Lord Krishna'sSupreme form (Ishwara).Before I continue I would like to share something. I read the wholeof the chapter, I was in a very focused state of mind, as I read theHoly Gita, something happened, yes I was reading it in English, butthe language of it faded away, I felt as if I were right there in astrange way, I felt I was a privileged observer, the richness of thewhole thing was fixed in my mind, hmmm, thats the best way mystumbling words can put it.(Most inadequately). Getting back to Gitaji Ch 11, Arjuna saw Shri Krishna, who heconsidered to be a great friend, in an overpowering form, I presumeonly Arjuna witnessed this, or more correctly was given the gift toperceive Ishwara, his senses were confounded he was terrified, andthen of course the vision left him. A friend of mine who was a walking encyclopedia, said that 90% of allwe perceive is filtered out, otherwise we could not function.(I thinkI read that somewhere myself).My proviso is the focused mind can transcend these limitations, andthe most powerful focus one can have is the 'The Divine Beloved'. B.G. 1153. Neither by the Vedas, nor by austerity, nor by gift, nor bysacrifice, can I be seen in this form as you have seen me (soeasily). 54. But by single-minded devotion can I, of this form, be known andseen in reality and also entered into, Arjuna! With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Keenor)--------------------------- Dear Sadaks,A ray of light has 9 colors. But we see it as white. A minute dot ofwater try on your computer screen, it will reflect nine colours. Thelight is one but has 9 colours within.Jai Sri KriahnaB.Sathyanarayan------------------------------Jai Hanuman Mr Bhatt ! You said :In summary objects experienced are one withConsciousness, even as waves and water are essentially ONE! Realityof "myself" and objectsare one and the same will naturally guide me to wisdom/discriminationin dealing with them! Can you elaborate as to how considering reality of "What exists"(Self) and "what does not exist at all" (objects) - by consideringthem (existent and non existent) to be ONE in the beginningitself, "naturally guide me to discrimination/wisdom in dealing withthem" ? Say, If I consider myself and body tobe ONE in essence , how will I then discriminate? How the reality ofyourself and objects is the same/one ? Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita,relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant tomotivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group'sprimary aim of deeper understanding of Gita. FOR RESPONDER1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka'stime.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.