Equanimity and How It Can Lead to Emancipation ?

March 16, 2009

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

ALL SADHAKS PLEASE KINDLY READ THE GUIDELINES FOR THE GROUP BEFORE EACH POSTING.

WE ARE SINCERELY STRIVING TOWARDS BREVITY, RESPECT FOR ALL SADHAKS AND

FURTHERING UNDERSTANDING OF GITA / OTHER SCRIPTURES.

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

------------------------

Ram Ram

1. According to Gita 5/19, " Those whose intellect is established in equanimity

they are said to be emancipated " .

Question - The Self does not have any relationship with intellect. So how is it

that the equanimity of intellect leads to emancipation?

2. Spiritual practices like reading spiritual books, hearing discourses,

chanting, meditating etc. are only done by instruments like mind, body and

intellect. How is it that it helps one progress spiritually because spiritual

progress is said to be of the Self and the Self does not have relationship with

these instruments?

I request all to address me as Varun rather than Varunji.

Thanks,

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

---------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

FOR QUESTIONER

1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita,

relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant to

motivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path

2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study

3. Only one question at a time.

4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group's

primary aim of deeper understanding of Gita.

FOR RESPONDER

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka's

time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

March 17, 2009

Shree HariRam RamALL SADHAKS PLEASE KINDLY READ THE GUIDELINES FOR THE GROUP BEFORE EACH POSTING. WE ARE SINCERELY STRIVING TOWARDS BREVITY, RESPECT FOR ALL SADHAKS AND FURTHERING UNDERSTANDING OF GITA / OTHER SCRIPTURES.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram------------------------Ram Ram

1. According to Gita 5/19, "Those whose intellect is established in equanimitythey are said to be emancipated".

Question - The Self does not have any relationship with intellect. So how is itthat the equanimity of intellect leads to emancipation?

2. Spiritual practices like reading spiritual books, hearing discourses,chanting, meditating etc. are only done by instruments like mind, body andintellect. How is it that it helps one progress spiritually because spiritualprogress is said to be of the Self and the Self does not have relationship withthese instruments?

I request all to address me as Varun rather than Varunji.

Thanks,Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia

---------------NEW POSTING

Hari OmEquanimity is a state. It is a natural state in which God, Mr Conscience and Self live. In-equanimity gets created when Self forms affinity with inert/nature and becomes Jeeva. Intellect/mind/ego they are inert. You can equate them with mirror or machine. When Jeeva is desireful, these mirrors/machines become in-equal (visham) . When desires/me/mine etc are gone for the worldly things/body/people, then these machines have no option but to become equanimous. Because being part of nature/inert, they can not reach Paramatma and because of indifference to the world they lose interest in the worldly actions/people/things. Thus, they essentially fall into an optionless state ! That state of theirs is called Equanimous state.God is stated to be ever equanimous. When Self ceases to be Jeeva, having broken affinity with inert (mind/intellect/body) , he is said to be liberated while living. That is possible only when Intellect/mind become equanimous, which state in turn arises out of desirelessness/egolessness/minenessless and me-ness less states. As stated, when ego is annihilated/purified/changed ( viz when desires/me/mine is removed) then only Equanimity shines in mind/intellect. You meet then the characteristics of very Paramatma.Reading Scriptures etc though they are done by mind/intellect (why that only? -every action is done by nature only- Self is actionless) but they help Jeeva in identifying ignorances and exercising correctly, the power of acceptance or rejection by Self. Self has power only of accepting/rejecting -affinity( associating/disassociating; connecting/disconnecting) and no other powers. Based on exercise of powers by him of say connections or disconnection with say Paramatma or Prakruti- the Jeeva remains or ceases to be bound. Based on that only Liberations or Bondages sustain.

Thus, a Bhakti Yogi gets equanimous because he "changes" me-ness and mine ness from worldly to divine. Change in Self (ego) makes mind/intellect fall in line with changed ego. Mind/intellect being part of inert, they continue to remain so, but lose interest in the world/people/things and since divine has become ego, they too become equanimous- seeing God only everywhere. In Karma Yoga, they remain active in the world but because of 'nishkaam bhava' again in ego, they must become equanimous. When Yogi has no connection/desire for fruits, what remains to be their role except doing "duty" as a machine does? In Jnana Yoga, the Yogi throws them into dust bin from day one. Where then the option remains with them of loitering/desiring? They become instantly equanimous. In these states, they always remain positioned in nature(prakruti) only but with no impetus/liking/disliking/desires towards the matter/action. They indeed lose all options and really start reflecting Self as a mirror reflects or become equanimous like say a computer or car is ! Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

-

Dear Varun,

Body,mind and intellect are the three equipments through which we function in this world. Self Realisation can be attained by pursuing karma yoga through body, bhakti yoga through mind and gyan yoga through intellect. All these equipments are means to attain Realisation and ,therefore, till Realisation, need to be necessarily used and appropriately conditioned by us through constant Tapas in different proportions depending upon the path chosen. Self is immune and above these means. These means automatically drop off upon Realisation.

This can be explained by the example of Pole Vault game. The player has to learn to cross the bar with the help of a Pole. In this game, he holds the pole and runs fast towards the bar which is placed at a considerable height. When he reaches the right point, he takes a leap with the help of the pole, drops the pole when he attains the height and crosses over the bar. Here, the player cannot cross the bar without the pole but at the same time, he also cannot cross the bar with the pole in his hand. The pole is only a means for the player to cross the bar but only till he attains the required height. He must then drop the pole and instantly cross the bar.

These are my modest views and I would like to be enlightened by the members of the group.

Kind regards

O P Agarwal-

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Sadhak Varun has asked a very good question, indeed. This is my(?) understanding.Intellect refers to individual's intellect which is always limited as individual himself/herself is. Such limited intellect is unbalanced, driven by Gunas to restless state. When intellect is dissolved, so to speak, in the equanimity itself which is The Impersonal Intelligence of SELF, The Absolute, it is said to have established in Equanimity. Thus no traces of individuality remain which is called Emancipation. Self has no relationship to intellect means, to me, Self doesn't have limitations of personal intellect which is due to identifications with body-mind-intellect by SELF. In otherwords, ignorance has no relationship to Self-Knowledge and yet ignorance cannot exist without Self!Freedom from such identifications may be called spiritual progress of SELF, however, SELF is ever liberated, the very reason it can shed such limitations in the first place! It is as if an individual wakes up from dream realizing it was never such an individual after all! It is important to realize that body-mind-intellct is the great and only tool to help one toward emancipation and not hinder it! Just as the faulty tool becomes hindrance, the conditioned mind, intellect become hindrance as they disregard the Master Mechanic, the SELF, without which the tool cannot work on its own! Upon emancipation, The Mechanic puts away the tool in the tool box!Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt

------Dear Sadaks,Equanimity of Intellect means, that ONLY to see and feel, Profit and loss, Gyan and Agyan, Suk and Duk, male and female, wealth and poverty, fame and disregard, kill and being killed Etc. Please note it is NOT said profit or Loss. No word OR mentioned above. Such equanimity stabilizes mind in Anandh and in Paramathuma, as it knows that everything around is changeable and perishable.""Spiritual practices like reading spiritual books, hearing discourses, chanting, meditating etc. are only done by instruments like mind, body and intellect,"" a sadak says.. These helps mind and body and intellect to become purer and purer, birth after birth. Once the Athuman is realized then mind, body and intellect has very high different frequency. Ex: Ears can hear sound only to certain distance. So are all organs of actions. But for saint (realized) the body cannot be hurt by Pancha Boothas, he can hear anything at any distance, even from other planets, he can see Dhoordharshan anywhere in the universe. But he lives with the body, mind and intellect perfectly UNATTACHED. When Buddha, Christ or Adi Sankara walked in forests, the animals became so pacified for 15 Km radius to extent lion and deer were next to each other quietly in equanimity. Sri Ramana Rishi could tell his or anyone previous births.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan

----------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita,relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant tomotivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group'sprimary aim of deeper understanding of Gita.

FOR RESPONDER1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka'stime.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

March 17, 2009

Shree HariRam RamALL SADHAKS PLEASE KINDLY READ THE GUIDELINES FOR THE GROUP BEFORE EACH POSTING. WE ARE SINCERELY STRIVING TOWARDS BREVITY, RESPECT FOR ALL SADHAKS AND FURTHERING UNDERSTANDING OF GITA / OTHER SCRIPTURES.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram------------------------Ram Ram

1. According to Gita 5/19, "Those whose intellect is established in equanimitythey are said to be emancipated".

Question - The Self does not have any relationship with intellect. So how is itthat the equanimity of intellect leads to emancipation?

2. Spiritual practices like reading spiritual books, hearing discourses,chanting, meditating etc. are only done by instruments like mind, body andintellect. How is it that it helps one progress spiritually because spiritualprogress is said to be of the Self and the Self does not have relationship withthese instruments?

I request all to address me as Varun rather than Varunji.

Thanks,Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia

---------------NEW POSTING

Dear Friend

Geeta continued till 73 rd Verse of 18 th Chapter because Arjuna's intellect was not established in the self.

The whole process of spirituality is to be aware of self.

In 42 nd verse of 3 rd chapter ,Krisna says to Arjuna that you are beyond body,senses,mind and intellect.You

are soul.

But this was not understood by Arjuna ,so Krisna goes on and goes on.

Remaining of the soul untouched or unaffected with intellect is possible only at the advanced stage of spiritual progress.

The spiritual practices helps in the process.

regards

Ashok Jain

----------------------------

Hari OmSadhak O P Agarwalji ! At the outset , Welcome ! You said-QuoteSelf Realisation can be attained by pursuing karma yoga through body, bhakti yoga through mind and gyan yoga through intellect. All these equipments are means to attain Realisation UnquoteI would urge you to note that yogas stated by you are actually practiced NOT by/through use of body/mind/intellect but by not using and by renunciation of body/mind/intellect !! They in facy are not 'means' in fact but the renunciation of them is the 'means'. It is a subtle point, which I want you to grasp. "Use" of a thing vis a vis "renunciation" of a thing. A really big difference! What I have stated is natural. In fact, the very question of Sadhak Varun arises on account of that difference only. Read again his beautiful argument in the question. Why at all he raised the very question? Because of the difference I have pointed out! Note here also that body/mind/intellect do always change! Any doubt on the same? (Come back with doubts) . Now how can by using the changeable element , you can ever get that element which never changes? Can you ever get "imperishable" by using "perishable"? Can you ever get permanent element by "means" (use) of temporary element? No you cannot ! You can't get sentient element by 'means' of inert elements. In the example given by Shri Pratap Bhatt, the player reaches the other side only when he "renounces" shelter of pole, (with pole in hand he can not reach ) and not before renouncing that !! Isn't it? Moreover, that is the only one of the many ways by which a player can achieve those heights and reach other side ! Not necessarily the "only" method ! Isn't it?Think and revert !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B---------------

Jai HanumanBeautiful Jee Beautiful !MIRROR ! Indeed the mind/intellect are inert mirrors only, where the pure self , and of course the very characteristics of the pure self- equanimity - shines/reflects !!Agreed here that the fact is that Equanimity does not rise in him whose mind is tossed about thus: "this is a worthless thing and this is the real thing" , as a cluster of blossoms does not appear in a Sakhota tree !Sadhak Varun ! As long as the perceptions of what is fit to be abandoned or acquired , of (or arising in) the mind, are not destroyed , so long, equanimity does not shine, as moon light in the sky with clouds !!So what you should do, Varunji Maharaj ? Do not suffer dejection among things fit to be abandoned, nor be intent on things fit to be acquired ! Having given up this perception, attain to the state of purity abiding in the residual Reality ! But, where there is proper or improper DESIRE manifesting gain or loss, there, how can equanimity or purity , possessing the lustre of desirelessness or indifference to the world , exist?Bolo Jee ! Sadhak Varun !! Know equanimity as the cloud in cooling the heat of the Sun in the form of all pains, as the remedy destroying the fever of agitation and as the utmost pacification or cessation of pairs of opposites !!What do you say, Dear Sadhaks?Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala ------------

-Shree Hari-Dear Varun,

I have just read some very good responses, rather than come up with learneddiscourse, I am going to reflect on the answers provided already. (I might haveread them wrong, never mind how can one learn if one does not ask questions.)As per Gitaji there are three main Yogas, Bhakti, Karma, and Jnana.Brother Vyas then analyzes the processes in detail.What I picked up was Equanimity is The Natural State, to which the Self canreturn.There is a question in my mind, that is, does one necessarily select theparticular path home, i.e., " I am going by the Jnana path...or Karma etc.".I cannot see why some souls could not embrace elements of more than one of theseYogas. (Maybe without any rational assessment). Brother Sathyanarayan has written about the purification process, from birth tobirth etc. Now as one is on this path, then it seems that the result is a soulin this purification process, develops dislikes for gross things, food,behavior, work choices, recreation, and turns more and more to The Divine. Frombirth to birth, a positive re-enforcement. As I see it the veneer that hidesliberation gets thiner and thiner, and could be shattered in less than aheartbeat.(I would suspect that one would become a Yogi in the latter stages ofpurification, not just follower of Hinduism but also those very much in thepath of the Mystics in general).Bhagavad Gita—Chapter Seven:At the end of his many birthsThe wise man takes refuge in Me.He knows: "All is Vasudeva."How very rare is that great soul! (19)With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor).

----------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Another way to look at Equanimity and Emancipation:All our experiences have only one Reality of "Being Conscious" of whatever it is that gets expressed as thought-feeling. So what we call mind is just a name given to cognitive aspect, as such there is no mind. Similarly intellect is also same, the ability to decide with the help of memory. Ego is another name for ignorant behavior as result of false identification with body. As such there is no reality to either mind, intellect, ego as names may suggest to their independent reality. They are mere appearances/perceptions, as all names are, perceived in Consciousness or Self(another name).Having understood this, we can use such names to communicate with one another and know always they point to some experiences, not to reality in their own rights. However, we never experience inerts as we only experience consciousness presented to us as mind, intellect, ego, memory and objects! Body-mind-intellect being the tool to liberate us, if used, for God realization, or keep us bound if wrongly used.The ability to decide is tainted by selfishness-ego, or false sense of "me" and thus actions of such a person are based on desires, and fears. This is non-equanimous state arising in SELF due to false identification with limitations. When it is seen that mind, intellect, memory and ego(manah, buddhi, chitta, ahamkar), and all perceived objects and even the entire Cosmos is no-thing but manifestation/extension of SELF Itself, the ignorance falls away and it is said that individual is established in Equanimity, meaning individual(separate mind-intellect-ego) which was ignorance, is no more, Equanimity alone as SELF reins and shines! This is emancipation!Namaskar.........Pratap Bhatt

--------------Very good question, Varun.When Self is in command, intellect, mind and body have no alternative but toalign with the Self's requirement only. We know when Self is in command:when the Self expresses itself its basic nature that is free of ego, desire,anger and fear and unconcerned, unperturbed by external events. Therefore,by Yoga (concentration, tapasya, etc) a person tries to make his body,senses, mind and intellect detached from everything in the Universe and seehimself/ herself as indingishuable from all things and any thing in theUniverse. If one is able to succeed through practice and perseverance toreach that stage of body, mind and intellect, the Self automatically takesover and once it takes over by its very nature it completely neutralises thethree guna influence on the body, senses, mind and intellect. At that stage,body, senses, mind and intellect gets completely aligned with the truenature of the Self.So, equanimity of intellect leads the body, senses, mind and intellectcreate conditions for the Self to express its true nature through all these:attaining the Self through the submission of body, senses , mind andintellect is freedom from the Worldly environmental influences and theinfluence of the Gunas. This freedom is emancipation of the body, senses,mind and intellect - they all completely submit to the Self.Self does not require spiritual progress. It is the body, senses, mind andintellect that undergoes spiritual processing through Yoga and othermethods. As they progresses, the Self which was always there unfolds andtakes control over the body, senses, mind and intellect to ensure that theyremain completely aligned with the SELF that is by nature emancipated fromdilemmas, distinctions, dichotomies, fear, anger, desire.The SELF in Gita is not be confused with the self of myself, yourself,selfishness etc. which are nothing but the symptoms or expressions of ego.Please read Gita again and again to find the simplest and the mostscientific truth contained in the verses. The Self in Gita is God, theabsolute and the ultimate source of the entire creation. Once therealization of that SELF occurs in a person identified commonly with a body,its senses, its mind and intellect, the person no more acts like and medriven by the ego, intellect, senses and the body. Basudeb Sen

----------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari OmEquanimity is a state. It is a natural state in which God, Mr Conscience and Self live. In-equanimity gets created when Self forms affinity with inert/nature and becomes Jeeva. Intellect/mind/ego they are inert. You can equate them with mirror or machine. When Jeeva is desireful, these mirrors/machines become in-equal (visham) . When desires/me/mine etc are gone for the worldly things/body/people, then these machines have no option but to become equanimous. Because being part of nature/inert, they can not reach Paramatma and because of indifference to the world they lose interest in the worldly actions/people/things. Thus, they essentially fall into an optionless state ! That state of theirs is called Equanimous state.God is stated to be ever equanimous. When Self ceases to be Jeeva, having broken affinity with inert (mind/intellect/body) , he is said to be liberated while living. That is possible only when Intellect/mind become equanimous, which state in turn arises out of desirelessness/egolessness/minenessless and me-ness less states. As stated, when ego is annihilated/purified/changed ( viz when desires/me/mine is removed) then only Equanimity shines in mind/intellect. You meet then the characteristics of very Paramatma.Reading Scriptures etc though they are done by mind/intellect (why that only? -every action is done by nature only- Self is actionless) but they help Jeeva in identifying ignorances and exercising correctly, the power of acceptance or rejection by Self. Self has power only of accepting/rejecting -affinity( associating/disassociating; connecting/disconnecting) and no other powers. Based on exercise of powers by him of say connections or disconnection with say Paramatma or Prakruti- the Jeeva remains or ceases to be bound. Based on that only Liberations or Bondages sustain.

Thus, a Bhakti Yogi gets equanimous because he "changes" me-ness and mine ness from worldly to divine. Change in Self (ego) makes mind/intellect fall in line with changed ego. Mind/intellect being part of inert, they continue to remain so, but lose interest in the world/people/things and since divine has become ego, they too become equanimous- seeing God only everywhere. In Karma Yoga, they remain active in the world but because of 'nishkaam bhava' again in ego, they must become equanimous. When Yogi has no connection/desire for fruits, what remains to be their role except doing "duty" as a machine does? In Jnana Yoga, the Yogi throws them into dust bin from day one. Where then the option remains with them of loitering/desiring? They become instantly equanimous. In these states, they always remain positioned in nature(prakruti) only but with no impetus/liking/disliking/desires towards the matter/action. They indeed lose all options and really start reflecting Self as a mirror reflects or become equanimous like say a computer or car is ! Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

-

Dear Varun,

Body,mind and intellect are the three equipments through which we function in this world. Self Realisation can be attained by pursuing karma yoga through body, bhakti yoga through mind and gyan yoga through intellect. All these equipments are means to attain Realisation and ,therefore, till Realisation, need to be necessarily used and appropriately conditioned by us through constant Tapas in different proportions depending upon the path chosen. Self is immune and above these means. These means automatically drop off upon Realisation.

This can be explained by the example of Pole Vault game. The player has to learn to cross the bar with the help of a Pole. In this game, he holds the pole and runs fast towards the bar which is placed at a considerable height. When he reaches the right point, he takes a leap with the help of the pole, drops the pole when he attains the height and crosses over the bar. Here, the player cannot cross the bar without the pole but at the same time, he also cannot cross the bar with the pole in his hand. The pole is only a means for the player to cross the bar but only till he attains the required height. He must then drop the pole and instantly cross the bar.

These are my modest views and I would like to be enlightened by the members of the group.

Kind regards

O P Agarwal-

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Sadhak Varun has asked a very good question, indeed. This is my(?) understanding.Intellect refers to individual's intellect which is always limited as individual himself/herself is. Such limited intellect is unbalanced, driven by Gunas to restless state. When intellect is dissolved, so to speak, in the equanimity itself which is The Impersonal Intelligence of SELF, The Absolute, it is said to have established in Equanimity. Thus no traces of individuality remain which is called Emancipation. Self has no relationship to intellect means, to me, Self doesn't have limitations of personal intellect which is due to identifications with body-mind-intellect by SELF. In otherwords, ignorance has no relationship to Self-Knowledge and yet ignorance cannot exist without Self!Freedom from such identifications may be called spiritual progress of SELF, however, SELF is ever liberated, the very reason it can shed such limitations in the first place! It is as if an individual wakes up from dream realizing it was never such an individual after all! It is important to realize that body-mind-intellct is the great and only tool to help one toward emancipation and not hinder it! Just as the faulty tool becomes hindrance, the conditioned mind, intellect become hindrance as they disregard the Master Mechanic, the SELF, without which the tool cannot work on its own! Upon emancipation, The Mechanic puts away the tool in the tool box!Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt

------Dear Sadaks,Equanimity of Intellect means, that ONLY to see and feel, Profit and loss, Gyan and Agyan, Suk and Duk, male and female, wealth and poverty, fame and disregard, kill and being killed Etc. Please note it is NOT said profit or Loss. No word OR mentioned above. Such equanimity stabilizes mind in Anandh and in Paramathuma, as it knows that everything around is changeable and perishable.""Spiritual practices like reading spiritual books, hearing discourses, chanting, meditating etc. are only done by instruments like mind, body and intellect,"" a sadak says.. These helps mind and body and intellect to become purer and purer, birth after birth. Once the Athuman is realized then mind, body and intellect has very high different frequency. Ex: Ears can hear sound only to certain distance. So are all organs of actions. But for saint (realized) the body cannot be hurt by Pancha Boothas, he can hear anything at any distance, even from other planets, he can see Dhoordharshan anywhere in the universe. But he lives with the body, mind and intellect perfectly UNATTACHED. When Buddha, Christ or Adi Sankara walked in forests, the animals became so pacified for 15 Km radius to extent lion and deer were next to each other quietly in equanimity. Sri Ramana Rishi could tell his or anyone previous births.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan

----------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita,relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant tomotivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group'sprimary aim of deeper understanding of Gita.

FOR RESPONDER1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka'stime.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

March 18, 2009

Shree HariRam RamALL SADHAKS PLEASE KINDLY READ THE GUIDELINES FOR THE GROUP BEFORE EACH POSTING. WE ARE SINCERELY STRIVING TOWARDS BREVITY, RESPECT FOR ALL SADHAKS AND FURTHERING UNDERSTANDING OF GITA / OTHER SCRIPTURES.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram------------------------Ram Ram

1. According to Gita 5/19, "Those whose intellect is established in equanimitythey are said to be emancipated".

Question - The Self does not have any relationship with intellect. So how is itthat the equanimity of intellect leads to emancipation?

2. Spiritual practices like reading spiritual books, hearing discourses,chanting, meditating etc. are only done by instruments like mind, body andintellect. How is it that it helps one progress spiritually because spiritualprogress is said to be of the Self and the Self does not have relationship withthese instruments?

I request all to address me as Varun rather than Varunji.

Thanks,Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia

---------------NEW POSTING

Dear Varun,

Question - The Self does not have any relationship with intellect. So how is itthat the equanimity of intellect leads to emancipation?

Nice question, but does not look holistic rather a bit fragmented.

According to Swami Ramsukh Das ji, the realization of the "karan nirpeksha" absolute truth is not related with sense(body)-mind-intellect, and this is what you also say. If a Sadhak takes the support of these instruments, then the process may take much longer for self-realisation, whereas the absolute truth shines the moment "sense(body)-mind-intellect" are gotten rid of. It can happen right now and here. I am glad that you are already out of this vicious circle.

INDRIYAANI PRAANIYAAHURINDREYBHYAH PARAM MANAH/MANASASTU PARAA BUDDHIYOR BUDDHEH PARATASTU SAH (GITA III/42). (They say that the senses are superior (to the body); the mind is superior to the senses, the intellect is superior to the mind, and He(the Atmaa) is superior to the intellect). But, how many persons understand this? When I was of your age, it was all Latin and Greek to me. So I depended on purification of sense-mind-intellect by doing what you mention in your second question.

2. Spiritual practices like reading spiritual books, hearing discourses,chanting, meditating etc. are only done by instruments like mind, body andintellect. How is it that it helps one progress spiritually because spiritualprogress is said to be of the Self and the Self does not have relationship withthese instruments?

Tulsi Dasji mentions in Manas (7/117/2), "JARH CHETANHI GRANDHI PARIGAYEE/JADAPI MRISHA CHHUTAT KATHINAYEE." It is very difficult to untie the knot of mind-body-intellect and ego. Here, this "I am" is "jardh" when it associates itself with the former body-mind-intellect but is "chetan" when "˜I" disappears and "am" becomes one with "Is-ness".

Sadhaks have different types of conditioning of their minds, and as such there are different remedies prescribed for them. But your insistence on dividing the God in mind-body-intellect and Self does not hold water as Bhagwan utters in Gita (VII/4-5), "Earth, water, fire, ether, mind, intellect, egoism " these are My eight-fold Lower Prakriti. Different from this, is my Higher Prakriti " the very Life-element, by which this world is upheld"So, why are you intellectualizing by separating Self from the lower Prakriti. All is God (SARVAMITI VASUDEVAM). The curse of us intellectuals is, according to J. Krishnamurti, "When he IS forced to look, he tears to pieces what he sees, which he calls analysis, runs away from it or doesn't want to see."

After realizing our real self "Atma Sakshatkar", what are we supposed to do? Obviously, we should continue reading "spiritual books, hearing discourses, chanting, meditating etc" according to our way of living.

I request all to address me as Varun rather than Varunji.

Your courtesy is much appreciated. Chronologically, you may be just 24 or 25; biologically, you may be a young man; but spiritually, you are what we all are, so some of the "peers" may suffix your name with "ji" and rightly so.Kind regards,

Suresh C. Sharma

---------------

Hari OmThis refers to the comments of Brother Mike. My personal experience suggests that a persons "fixes his objective" at the beginning. Thereafter "automatically" based on this object fixation, his body starts functioning in that direction. The body/mind/intellect however function based on the acquired "nature/gunas" . If he has "belief" say predominantly in him , he shall tend to be a bhakti yogi. If he has velocity to do karma more in him, he shall become Karma yogi. If he has predominant trait of "knowledge" , he will tend to be a Jnana Yogi. In my personal view ( I would welcome a focussed debate) one comes to know in retrospect or looking back only that which yoga he predominantly followed. For example- "sarvabhoot hite rata" (indulging in doing good to all creatures) is common to all three yogas. The differences are there in the paths/processes etc, some basic too, but they end up complementing. The body/mind/intellect etc definitely function as per their 'inherent' nature but again as always in accordance with 'object fixation' by Jeeva through ego. Later on you come to know (at least in Karma and Bhakti Yoga) as to whether your ego got purified or changed. In Jnana Yoga, however, the Yogi at the outset only starts with a firm determination- I am Brahma- and never gets down from this state of conviction.Hope this helps. As regards BG 7:19- pls note "at the end of many births" referred there does not reflect upon a chain of prior births to be considered, but ONLY to the present human birth. "Bahuna Janmanamante" is a glory/adjective to present human birth. I do not see any thing wrong in saying, "in a human life which come to us after a long chain of births and deaths- the learned one surrenders..... ". The concept of purification of antahkarana over many births in fact , in my humble view, does not resolve many issues then arising. In any case, in God Realisation, the "purification" of antahkarana (ego/mind/intellect) is immaterial, the "disconnection" therewith is material. In the end, all Yogis must "disconnect" with inert. No amount of purification is going to help.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

Loving Divine,

Pranam. With apologies to moderatorji for making it little longer...

Before coming to Varunji's question, few things need clarification:

SELF - God/Consciousness/Brahman, etc. - never changing, eternally present. Even though it's never changing, it's the most vibrant (Chetan) - sentient. It is said to be not doing anything because it is in equanimity always, i.e., whatever happens in its presence, in IT, it is not tainted like good-bad actions performed in the presence of Sun light has no impact on Sun.

Self - an embodied SELF - Jivaatmaa. Being an atom of SELF(BG 15:7- mamaivaansho jiva... ), it's also never tainted. It just has forgotten its eternal association with SELF.

Prakruti / Primordial Nature - instrument of SELF. Prakruti is ever changing & also eternally present. Even though it appears to be changing, it's jada /inert/insentient. It's made up of 8 elements (BG 7:4 also see sloka 5, 6) & 3 gunas (BG14:5). Those interested in Science can search the characteristics of Neutron, Electron & Proton of an atom. Prakruti has emerged from SELF(It is my lower nature. I am in it, it is in me but I am not it BG 9:4) but for our understanding purposes, temporarily, we'll treat it separate from SELF. It is like - even though our body is alive we also have hair & nails - insentient coming from sentient.

Maya / World - to Self it's the manifestation of SELF in an attractive-unattractive form using Prakruti as an instrument (BG9:10). What's attractive to one isn't necessarily to other. From one perspective, Prakruti, Maya & World are one & the same - illusory!

BMI - body, mind, intellect - part of Prakruti, instruments given to Self. Self uses these instruments to associate itself with Maya. As long as it remains associated with Maya, it remains as embodied Self life after life (BG13:21).

Prakruti appears vibrant/live only because of the presence of SELF in it. Similarly, our BMI appears live because of an atom of SELF, Self/Jivaatmaa being present in them. It is like a bulb, not much help if electricity is not passing through it. BMI is useful when Self is present otherwise, it carries no value to us.

Self does 2 things - remain aware of its associate with God (like waves are never separate from ocean) or forgets the original association & falsely associates with world/prakruti/maya (like how water takes up the form of object it is stored in)

Just like while watching movie, an entertainment instrument, we forget ourselves & start crying, laughing, etc., embodied Self also forgets while watching the worldly movie - Maya. BMI in itself can not do anything, it needs Self! Self in itself doesn't experience anything, it needs BMI. It is like hydrogen and oxygen carry their individual characteristics but when combined becomes water carrying totally different characteristics.

Just like association with movie stops when movie ends or upon realizing that oh, it's just a movie. Similarly, association with world/Maya ends when all desires are exhausted or Self becomes aware of its forgotten association with SELF.

Now let's see whether it makes sense...

Yoga, mediation, satsang, bhakti, selfless karma, etc. are of Prakruti's - instruments called processes. When oxygen & hydrogen are mixed together following a process it results into water. Not following the process correctly could result into something else but water. Similarly, following some processes generate certain reactions in Self - association with Maya or recollecting the true state of Self/SELF. Since Self is trapped into BMI, the reaction is also felt in BMI depending on which processes are followed (BG 13:19). Yoga, meditation, etc. are useful to the Self that is still associating itself with illusion/maya/world, not to the Self that has already found its true association with SELF (BG 2:46). It is like certain medicine work on certain disease. Taking wrong medicine could result into deterioration of health but right one subsides the reaction and brings back natural state, i.e., equnimity of SELF (BG2:70). Being trapped in BMI, Self uses BMI again to undo whatever was done while wrongfully associating with BMI.

Karta/karma/karan or Gyaataa/Gyaan/Gyai all are needed in this process (BG 18:18) but the surprising thing (BG 2:29) here is that it is all one and the same SELF appears to be doing it all. It is like we create a whole new world, people, things, etc. in our dream with its own time and space, upon waking up where all that creation go? It is like spider creates its web using its own saliva & when not needed can swallow it up. It is all SELF playing games with ITSELF - creating Self (like waves of ocean), creating Maya (like mirage), associating itself w/Maya (like movie), then trying to free from it (like useing yoga-meditation, etc.) and finally remembering its oneness w/SELF (BG 18:73) - claiming it back to be Aham Brahmasmi!!!!

Hope it is clear... If not, please read it few times, ask further questions but I am sure asking question and re-reading this message over and over again will help answer your own question. If not, I will try to answer...

humble regards,

always at Thy Divine Feet

Manjula Patel

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Friend

Geeta continued till 73 rd Verse of 18 th Chapter because Arjuna's intellect was not established in the self.

The whole process of spirituality is to be aware of self.

In 42 nd verse of 3 rd chapter ,Krisna says to Arjuna that you are beyond body,senses,mind and intellect.You

are soul.

But this was not understood by Arjuna ,so Krisna goes on and goes on.

Remaining of the soul untouched or unaffected with intellect is possible only at the advanced stage of spiritual progress.

The spiritual practices helps in the process.

regards

Ashok Jain

----------------------------

Hari OmSadhak O P Agarwalji ! At the outset , Welcome ! You said-QuoteSelf Realisation can be attained by pursuing karma yoga through body, bhakti yoga through mind and gyan yoga through intellect. All these equipments are means to attain Realisation UnquoteI would urge you to note that yogas stated by you are actually practiced NOT by/through use of body/mind/intellect but by not using and by renunciation of body/mind/intellect !! They in facy are not 'means' in fact but the renunciation of them is the 'means'. It is a subtle point, which I want you to grasp. "Use" of a thing vis a vis "renunciation" of a thing. A really big difference! What I have stated is natural. In fact, the very question of Sadhak Varun arises on account of that difference only. Read again his beautiful argument in the question. Why at all he raised the very question? Because of the difference I have pointed out! Note here also that body/mind/intellect do always change! Any doubt on the same? (Come back with doubts) . Now how can by using the changeable element , you can ever get that element which never changes? Can you ever get "imperishable" by using "perishable"? Can you ever get permanent element by "means" (use) of temporary element? No you cannot ! You can't get sentient element by 'means' of inert elements. In the example given by Shri Pratap Bhatt, the player reaches the other side only when he "renounces" shelter of pole, (with pole in hand he can not reach ) and not before renouncing that !! Isn't it? Moreover, that is the only one of the many ways by which a player can achieve those heights and reach other side ! Not necessarily the "only" method ! Isn't it?Think and revert !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B---------------

Jai HanumanBeautiful Jee Beautiful !MIRROR ! Indeed the mind/intellect are inert mirrors only, where the pure self , and of course the very characteristics of the pure self- equanimity - shines/reflects !!Agreed here that the fact is that Equanimity does not rise in him whose mind is tossed about thus: "this is a worthless thing and this is the real thing" , as a cluster of blossoms does not appear in a Sakhota tree !Sadhak Varun ! As long as the perceptions of what is fit to be abandoned or acquired , of (or arising in) the mind, are not destroyed , so long, equanimity does not shine, as moon light in the sky with clouds !!So what you should do, Varunji Maharaj ? Do not suffer dejection among things fit to be abandoned, nor be intent on things fit to be acquired ! Having given up this perception, attain to the state of purity abiding in the residual Reality ! But, where there is proper or improper DESIRE manifesting gain or loss, there, how can equanimity or purity , possessing the lustre of desirelessness or indifference to the world , exist?Bolo Jee ! Sadhak Varun !! Know equanimity as the cloud in cooling the heat of the Sun in the form of all pains, as the remedy destroying the fever of agitation and as the utmost pacification or cessation of pairs of opposites !!What do you say, Dear Sadhaks?Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala ------------

-Shree Hari-Dear Varun,

I have just read some very good responses, rather than come up with learneddiscourse, I am going to reflect on the answers provided already. (I might haveread them wrong, never mind how can one learn if one does not ask questions.)As per Gitaji there are three main Yogas, Bhakti, Karma, and Jnana.Brother Vyas then analyzes the processes in detail.What I picked up was Equanimity is The Natural State, to which the Self canreturn.There is a question in my mind, that is, does one necessarily select theparticular path home, i.e., " I am going by the Jnana path...or Karma etc.".I cannot see why some souls could not embrace elements of more than one of theseYogas. (Maybe without any rational assessment). Brother Sathyanarayan has written about the purification process, from birth tobirth etc. Now as one is on this path, then it seems that the result is a soulin this purification process, develops dislikes for gross things, food,behavior, work choices, recreation, and turns more and more to The Divine. Frombirth to birth, a positive re-enforcement. As I see it the veneer that hidesliberation gets thiner and thiner, and could be shattered in less than aheartbeat.(I would suspect that one would become a Yogi in the latter stages ofpurification, not just follower of Hinduism but also those very much in thepath of the Mystics in general).Bhagavad Gita—Chapter Seven:At the end of his many birthsThe wise man takes refuge in Me.He knows: "All is Vasudeva."How very rare is that great soul! (19)With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor).

----------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Another way to look at Equanimity and Emancipation:All our experiences have only one Reality of "Being Conscious" of whatever it is that gets expressed as thought-feeling. So what we call mind is just a name given to cognitive aspect, as such there is no mind. Similarly intellect is also same, the ability to decide with the help of memory. Ego is another name for ignorant behavior as result of false identification with body. As such there is no reality to either mind, intellect, ego as names may suggest to their independent reality. They are mere appearances/perceptions, as all names are, perceived in Consciousness or Self(another name).Having understood this, we can use such names to communicate with one another and know always they point to some experiences, not to reality in their own rights. However, we never experience inerts as we only experience consciousness presented to us as mind, intellect, ego, memory and objects! Body-mind-intellect being the tool to liberate us, if used, for God realization, or keep us bound if wrongly used.The ability to decide is tainted by selfishness-ego, or false sense of "me" and thus actions of such a person are based on desires, and fears. This is non-equanimous state arising in SELF due to false identification with limitations. When it is seen that mind, intellect, memory and ego(manah, buddhi, chitta, ahamkar), and all perceived objects and even the entire Cosmos is no-thing but manifestation/extension of SELF Itself, the ignorance falls away and it is said that individual is established in Equanimity, meaning individual(separate mind-intellect-ego) which was ignorance, is no more, Equanimity alone as SELF reins and shines! This is emancipation!Namaskar.........Pratap Bhatt

--------------Very good question, Varun.When Self is in command, intellect, mind and body have no alternative but toalign with the Self's requirement only. We know when Self is in command:when the Self expresses itself its basic nature that is free of ego, desire,anger and fear and unconcerned, unperturbed by external events. Therefore,by Yoga (concentration, tapasya, etc) a person tries to make his body,senses, mind and intellect detached from everything in the Universe and seehimself/ herself as indingishuable from all things and any thing in theUniverse. If one is able to succeed through practice and perseverance toreach that stage of body, mind and intellect, the Self automatically takesover and once it takes over by its very nature it completely neutralises thethree guna influence on the body, senses, mind and intellect. At that stage,body, senses, mind and intellect gets completely aligned with the truenature of the Self.So, equanimity of intellect leads the body, senses, mind and intellectcreate conditions for the Self to express its true nature through all these:attaining the Self through the submission of body, senses , mind andintellect is freedom from the Worldly environmental influences and theinfluence of the Gunas. This freedom is emancipation of the body, senses,mind and intellect - they all completely submit to the Self.Self does not require spiritual progress. It is the body, senses, mind andintellect that undergoes spiritual processing through Yoga and othermethods. As they progresses, the Self which was always there unfolds andtakes control over the body, senses, mind and intellect to ensure that theyremain completely aligned with the SELF that is by nature emancipated fromdilemmas, distinctions, dichotomies, fear, anger, desire.The SELF in Gita is not be confused with the self of myself, yourself,selfishness etc. which are nothing but the symptoms or expressions of ego.Please read Gita again and again to find the simplest and the mostscientific truth contained in the verses. The Self in Gita is God, theabsolute and the ultimate source of the entire creation. Once therealization of that SELF occurs in a person identified commonly with a body,its senses, its mind and intellect, the person no more acts like and medriven by the ego, intellect, senses and the body. Basudeb Sen

----------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari OmEquanimity is a state. It is a natural state in which God, Mr Conscience and Self live. In-equanimity gets created when Self forms affinity with inert/nature and becomes Jeeva. Intellect/mind/ego they are inert. You can equate them with mirror or machine. When Jeeva is desireful, these mirrors/machines become in-equal (visham) . When desires/me/mine etc are gone for the worldly things/body/people, then these machines have no option but to become equanimous. Because being part of nature/inert, they can not reach Paramatma and because of indifference to the world they lose interest in the worldly actions/people/things. Thus, they essentially fall into an optionless state ! That state of theirs is called Equanimous state.God is stated to be ever equanimous. When Self ceases to be Jeeva, having broken affinity with inert (mind/intellect/body) , he is said to be liberated while living. That is possible only when Intellect/mind become equanimous, which state in turn arises out of desirelessness/egolessness/minenessless and me-ness less states. As stated, when ego is annihilated/purified/changed ( viz when desires/me/mine is removed) then only Equanimity shines in mind/intellect. You meet then the characteristics of very Paramatma.Reading Scriptures etc though they are done by mind/intellect (why that only? -every action is done by nature only- Self is actionless) but they help Jeeva in identifying ignorances and exercising correctly, the power of acceptance or rejection by Self. Self has power only of accepting/rejecting -affinity( associating/disassociating; connecting/disconnecting) and no other powers. Based on exercise of powers by him of say connections or disconnection with say Paramatma or Prakruti- the Jeeva remains or ceases to be bound. Based on that only Liberations or Bondages sustain.

Thus, a Bhakti Yogi gets equanimous because he "changes" me-ness and mine ness from worldly to divine. Change in Self (ego) makes mind/intellect fall in line with changed ego. Mind/intellect being part of inert, they continue to remain so, but lose interest in the world/people/things and since divine has become ego, they too become equanimous- seeing God only everywhere. In Karma Yoga, they remain active in the world but because of 'nishkaam bhava' again in ego, they must become equanimous. When Yogi has no connection/desire for fruits, what remains to be their role except doing "duty" as a machine does? In Jnana Yoga, the Yogi throws them into dust bin from day one. Where then the option remains with them of loitering/desiring? They become instantly equanimous. In these states, they always remain positioned in nature(prakruti) only but with no impetus/liking/disliking/desires towards the matter/action. They indeed lose all options and really start reflecting Self as a mirror reflects or become equanimous like say a computer or car is ! Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

-

Dear Varun,

Body,mind and intellect are the three equipments through which we function in this world. Self Realisation can be attained by pursuing karma yoga through body, bhakti yoga through mind and gyan yoga through intellect. All these equipments are means to attain Realisation and ,therefore, till Realisation, need to be necessarily used and appropriately conditioned by us through constant Tapas in different proportions depending upon the path chosen. Self is immune and above these means. These means automatically drop off upon Realisation.

This can be explained by the example of Pole Vault game. The player has to learn to cross the bar with the help of a Pole. In this game, he holds the pole and runs fast towards the bar which is placed at a considerable height. When he reaches the right point, he takes a leap with the help of the pole, drops the pole when he attains the height and crosses over the bar. Here, the player cannot cross the bar without the pole but at the same time, he also cannot cross the bar with the pole in his hand. The pole is only a means for the player to cross the bar but only till he attains the required height. He must then drop the pole and instantly cross the bar.

These are my modest views and I would like to be enlightened by the members of the group.

Kind regards

O P Agarwal-

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Sadhak Varun has asked a very good question, indeed. This is my(?) understanding.Intellect refers to individual's intellect which is always limited as individual himself/herself is. Such limited intellect is unbalanced, driven by Gunas to restless state. When intellect is dissolved, so to speak, in the equanimity itself which is The Impersonal Intelligence of SELF, The Absolute, it is said to have established in Equanimity. Thus no traces of individuality remain which is called Emancipation. Self has no relationship to intellect means, to me, Self doesn't have limitations of personal intellect which is due to identifications with body-mind-intellect by SELF. In otherwords, ignorance has no relationship to Self-Knowledge and yet ignorance cannot exist without Self!Freedom from such identifications may be called spiritual progress of SELF, however, SELF is ever liberated, the very reason it can shed such limitations in the first place! It is as if an individual wakes up from dream realizing it was never such an individual after all! It is important to realize that body-mind-intellct is the great and only tool to help one toward emancipation and not hinder it! Just as the faulty tool becomes hindrance, the conditioned mind, intellect become hindrance as they disregard the Master Mechanic, the SELF, without which the tool cannot work on its own! Upon emancipation, The Mechanic puts away the tool in the tool box!Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt

------Dear Sadaks,Equanimity of Intellect means, that ONLY to see and feel, Profit and loss, Gyan and Agyan, Suk and Duk, male and female, wealth and poverty, fame and disregard, kill and being killed Etc. Please note it is NOT said profit or Loss. No word OR mentioned above. Such equanimity stabilizes mind in Anandh and in Paramathuma, as it knows that everything around is changeable and perishable.""Spiritual practices like reading spiritual books, hearing discourses, chanting, meditating etc. are only done by instruments like mind, body and intellect,"" a sadak says.. These helps mind and body and intellect to become purer and purer, birth after birth. Once the Athuman is realized then mind, body and intellect has very high different frequency. Ex: Ears can hear sound only to certain distance. So are all organs of actions. But for saint (realized) the body cannot be hurt by Pancha Boothas, he can hear anything at any distance, even from other planets, he can see Dhoordharshan anywhere in the universe. But he lives with the body, mind and intellect perfectly UNATTACHED. When Buddha, Christ or Adi Sankara walked in forests, the animals became so pacified for 15 Km radius to extent lion and deer were next to each other quietly in equanimity. Sri Ramana Rishi could tell his or anyone previous births.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan

----------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relavant to Gita,relavant to Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relavant tomotivate Sadhaks to take up spiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relavant to the group'sprimary aim of deeper understanding of Gita.

FOR RESPONDER1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, relevant and respectful of sadhaka'stime.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

March 19, 2009

Shree HariRam RamALL SADHAKS PLEASE KINDLY READ THE GUIDELINES FOR THE GROUP BEFORE EACH POSTING. WE ARE SINCERELY STRIVING TOWARDS BREVITY, RESPECT FOR ALL SADHAKS AND FURTHERING UNDERSTANDING OF GITA / OTHER SCRIPTURES.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram------------------------Ram Ram

1. According to Gita 5/19, "Those whose intellect is established in equanimitythey are said to be emancipated".

Question - The Self does not have any relationship with intellect. So how is itthat the equanimity of intellect leads to emancipation?

2. Spiritual practices like reading spiritual books, hearing discourses, chanting, meditating etc. are only done by instruments like mind, body and intellect. How is it that it helps one progress spiritually because spiritual progress is said to be of the Self and the Self does not have relationship with these instruments?

I request all to address me as Varun rather than Varunji.

Thanks,Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia

---------------

NEW POSTING

Ram Ram

Sorry for the late reply.....

Thank you everybody for taking time in replying to my question. Please forgive me as I won't be able to reply to all individual postings.

I got my answer - "The natural state of Self is equanimous which is reflected in mind and intellect. The intellect is situated in equanimity when all desires are renounced.

The purpose of the mind and intellect is to renounce them by using them. (I liked the pole-vault example given by O P Agarwalji.)"

Lord has said.

"He who has given up all desires, and moves free from atachment, egoism aand thirst for enjoyment attains peace." (Gita 2/71)

When desires are renounced then sadhak neither feels delighted nor gets perturbed by any situation. "He who, with firm intellect and free from doubt rejoices not on obtaining what is pleasant and does not feel perturbed on meeting with the unpleasant, that knower of Brahm lives eternally in identity with Brahm." (Gita 5/20)

So he remains equanimous in worldly affairs which then leads to emancipation according to 5/19.

Thank you so very much... to all of you. Sir Vyasji, your first post answered all my questions. Thanks.

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-----------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In Vyasji's post referencing shri Agarwalji's comments citing the example of pole and bar, it was Agarwalji's example only in the same post, not mine, just to point out!

I may make some observations while here!

I see body-mind-intellect as tool to serve all, Swamiji often points it out. If Human birth is the only opportunity to realize Self, then whatever is needed for the purpose is also given to us, has to be that way. One of the way to use the tool properly is to see body-mind-intellect as tool only, this distance us from identifying with them. If we cannot use it properly, obviously it is not tool's fault, it is "me"'s fault! All such postings are through the use of such tools.

Self is action-less, Witnessing Presence within us, somehow seems to choose to identify with limitations to dream Itself being bound, and then decides to wake up from the dream using such tools for sadhana to liberate! Isn't use of tools in this way, its renunciation too? After all, it is Self that is using them and not the "me", just as Mechanic would do it. Here the designer of the tool is also the same Mechanic, working on Himself all the way! Intellect established in Equanimity is Emancipation says Geeta.

Mind, Intellect shine in the Presence of Self, so are not inert, and are never experienced as inert, because everything we experience is Consciousness only! Yes, if mind and intellect act as if they are the Mechanic ignoring the true Master, they can be inert. On the path to liberation through being Human, we can use body-mind-intellect appropriately. What is needed is that we leave the tool outside the Gate once we reach the Gate with the help of such pole as cited by Agarwalji, that these tools are! We cannot command God to open the Gate because we did sadhana! Here the Grace as God or Self shows up whenever He wants to wake up from the Dream!

Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt

---

The self has no relation, is applicable only, when it is with reference to Aatman. Till then it is working as jeev atma the relation remains binding. it is through all these practices that on reaches to the stage where the the jeev atma is subdued and the Aatman is fully prominant. Equinamity is a stage when you have ceased to be under the influence of the exteriorized mind, and the dualities of the influence of the prakriti does not matter.

ckkaul

--

-------------------