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QUESTION:

I seek Narinder's learned clarification just to know as to from where he picked

up aforesaid definitions of " paap " (sin) and " punya " (virtue) ? Or it is self

understood? Just for information and if Narinder Bhandari and other Sadhak can

elaborate on the concept further.

N.B. Vyas

----------------------

 

Dear Geeta Sadhaks, Namaskar,

 

Shri Vyasji desires a learned clarification from Shri Bhandariji, regarding the

definitions of Paap (Bad Deeds) and Punya (Holy Deeds or Good Deeds). Bhandariji

will give his learned opinion in due course of time, but in the meanwhile, some

thoughts peeped in my brain on this subject and I want to humbly share those

with Geeta Sadhakas...

 

Paap and Punya are the concepts, introduced by the Great Thinkers of the Past

(GTPs) to establish an ethical order in the society. Any act or deed against the

ethical rules is a bad deed (sin). In our scriptures, even the King of

Gods...Indradev..has gone against the ethical rules. He assumed the the physical

form (Shareer) of Gautam rishi and mated with Gautami in a deliberate absence of

her husband. Actually Indra had tricked Gautam rishi to go to the river for a

bath at odd hours…This is a great great and the most disgraceful sin.

 

Killing an innocent and weak lifeform is a sin, but a cat never eats a dead

rat..She kills a live rat for her food...it is for her natural

survival...because she kills a rat only when she is hungry and needs food. So

killing an innocent rat is not a paap for the cat.

 

Helping a sick and needy person in any way is Punya, but giving a big donation

for gaining fame is not an act of Punya.

 

By the way, there is nobody...no Chitragupta..to keep a record of your Deeds of

Paap and Punya and accordingly send your soul to heaven or hell. If you do bad

acts, you will be ill-treated by the society and punished by law...that is your

hell...and if you do good acts...the society will respect you...that is your

heaven...

 

....Gee Waman

------------------------

 

However I ought to refer the following from the message of Bhandariji :

 

Our conduct can either lead us towards our own Centre ( which is Bliss

infinite), or away from it .That conduct , which leads us towards the Centre, is

termed Punya, and that , which leads us away from our own Centre true, is called

'sin' or papa .

 

I seek his learned clarification just to know as to from where he picked up

aforesaid definitions of " paap " (sin) and " punya " (virtue) ? Or it is self

understood? Just for information and if he can elaborate on the concept further.

 

Hari Om Vyas jee,

 

deep joy of being flowers in narinder's being, when he reads the words in your

various messages .............

 

to your words above, dear divine vyas jee, narinder can only say ............

what you already know ..

 

 

the self is One ..................

 

In the One, nought exists but the One ................all is the Play of the

Self ...........

 

The One-ness , when in play, is the Universe , existence as it is ............

prakriti ..... gunas ............

 

when not in play, The One is in a state of non-existence ................. it

is the Great Void that is purnam , ful-ness, infinite being , being and

non-being ( yes and no both ) ...............

 

there is neither a Centre, nor any circumference, nor beings , nor non-beings

.................

 

from the above, flows an apperception ( not a perception ... please note ), that

the Centre of the Self-created self, all selfs, all beings, is ONE.

 

each being is One with that Centre in deep sleep ...............

 

The yogi becomes One with that Centre in nirvikalpa samadhi .................

 

and,

 

suddenly the hitherto entity of the ego,which was till then a seeker, becomes

One with the Sought.... and is no more ...

 

he enters a timeless state ... the un-knowable state of Self, ... anarvachniya

(that, which words cannot convey).....

 

BUT

 

the above is only a recollection (knowledge intuitively experienced?) when the

ego (mind), now a no-mind, becomes an ego again ... this is, perhaps, the state

of being and non-being simultaneously...

to the ego, whom the experience has come as GRACE, knowing and not-knowing

becomes One, doing and not-doing becomes not-two.....

 

actually , he becomes mute.... he cannot speak, or , say....

 

now, he is ever silent ..... and it is the Great Silence that speaks through

him ... the SELF now speaks to the self ...........

 

much flows from this being ... because he is (in reality)no more ...

 

all is the Self , weaving in the self, the web of joy and love and play, for the

sake of the self .....

 

concepts are no more concepts ....as long as concepts remain concepts, true

knowledge of Silence remains silent ....

 

and dear divine Vyas jee, we ... all of us are moving towards that Centre

........ in fact we are that Centre alone ....the centre that is NOT the centre

.....

 

and each one of us one day, some day, comes to realise all that needs to be

realised .....

 

it is concepts and conditioning of the mind that eclipse the Reality,... and ,

then, begins the Sadhna ........

 

and it is our thoughts, words and deeds, that lead to the de-eclipsing

................. are the sadhna ...............

 

when they lead to the gradual de-eclipsing , they are punya....when they further

lead us into eclipsing ... they are papa

 

the measure of true success of our lived life ... is .... how much the distance

between the self and the Great SELF , has shortened in the present life... we

carry our being with us into the next life ( ....knowledge ?)

 

what more can narinder say ....?

 

he knows but little.... only what the Self makes available to him in the Now ,

the Moment Now ...

ah, narinder finds himself impotent again ....... how to say anything about

That, which is not a word !

 

'love and joy to all the divine sadhaks' ..... is the prayer that rises in

narinder's heart ....

AUM

 

Narinder Bhandari

--------------

 

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

 

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QUESTION:I seek Narinder's learned clarification just to know as to from where he pickedup aforesaid definitions of "paap" (sin) and "punya" (virtue) ? Or it is selfunderstood? Just for information and if Narinder Bhandari and other Sadhak canelaborate on the concept further.N.B. Vyas----------------------

NEW POSTING

Narinderji,Pranaams after Pranaams ... to ... The Center of All ... and to You for theeloquent teachings for us to appreciate our impotence as such wherein the radiiof our locii start shrnking to savour the nectar thereupon.Pranaams from an epicenter to another which helps merge the two in The One. MySahasra Deergha Danda Namaskaras to You.Naga Narayana

-----------------------

Dear Sadhak,I never heard /read a better definition of paap and punya then that given by Sadhak Narinderji. Any act, karma, or thought which moves our little ego self to the real Self is punya and vise-e-versa.with Love, a Sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

 

 

Hari Om........................................................

..........................................................................

.....................................................................................................Indeed - Where you have been searching Him so far, Sadhak ?Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

ah, Vyas jee, Vyas jee, Vyas jee................

every word that narinder has shared in this forum speaks only of the search of many lifetimes ...................and the Grace that has silenced that search, in the deep understanding of the One-ness of the word and its source, Silence .........

when Time( mind) enters into the Kingdom of Timelessness( No-mind) ........ the thirst is forever quenched ............... life and living carries on ..................... what else can poor narinder say, and how ?

MIND TO NO-MIND

The distance from Mind to No-mind

Is only a thought sacrificed

It does not exist.

A word unspoken

A touch unreal

A deed dreamt.

The roar of silence

Stillness spanning Time and Space

Deeper and deeper into Being

I descend

Effortlessly

Sans care

Sans fear

Deeper and deeper into Void

Where the eye or the ear exist notNor the dream nor the dreamer

Nor the sweet ignorance of deep sleep

Void

The fullness of experience

Only the fullness of experience

Existence and non-existence ever merging

Into Silence that IS

Just IS.

And, from that No-mind, blossoms life and living ..................... thoughts, words and deeds ........

THANK YOU BELOVED

Thank you Beloved

 

For the Beautiful Thoughts!

Thoughts that lead to the

Deep Silence of Being

Silence of Being that You Yourself are !!

Silence , the Imperishable Seed !

That erupts,

Grows,

Blossoms and flowers!

Silence,

The Fruit of which ..

Is

Wonderous Words and Thoughts

That lead one again

Unto the Silence of Being .

Ah, thank you Krishna ..........

Thank you Beloved

For your Gift divine.

 

AUM

narinder

-----------------------PRIOR POSTING

Dear Geeta Sadhaks, Namaskar,

Shri Vyasji desires a learned clarification from Shri Bhandariji, regarding thedefinitions of Paap (Bad Deeds) and Punya (Holy Deeds or Good Deeds). Bhandarijiwill give his learned opinion in due course of time, but in the meanwhile, somethoughts peeped in my brain on this subject and I want to humbly share thosewith Geeta Sadhakas...

Paap and Punya are the concepts, introduced by the Great Thinkers of the Past(GTPs) to establish an ethical order in the society. Any act or deed against theethical rules is a bad deed (sin). In our scriptures, even the King ofGods...Indradev..has gone against the ethical rules. He assumed the the physicalform (Shareer) of Gautam rishi and mated with Gautami in a deliberate absence ofher husband. Actually Indra had tricked Gautam rishi to go to the river for abath at odd hours…This is a great great and the most disgraceful sin.

Killing an innocent and weak lifeform is a sin, but a cat never eats a deadrat..She kills a live rat for her food...it is for her naturalsurvival...because she kills a rat only when she is hungry and needs food. Sokilling an innocent rat is not a paap for the cat.

Helping a sick and needy person in any way is Punya, but giving a big donationfor gaining fame is not an act of Punya.

By the way, there is nobody...no Chitragupta..to keep a record of your Deeds ofPaap and Punya and accordingly send your soul to heaven or hell. If you do badacts, you will be ill-treated by the society and punished by law...that is yourhell...and if you do good acts...the society will respect you...that is yourheaven...

....Gee Waman------------------------

However I ought to refer the following from the message of Bhandariji :

Our conduct can either lead us towards our own Centre ( which is Blissinfinite), or away from it .That conduct , which leads us towards the Centre, istermed Punya, and that , which leads us away from our own Centre true, is called'sin' or papa .

I seek his learned clarification just to know as to from where he picked upaforesaid definitions of "paap" (sin) and "punya" (virtue) ? Or it is selfunderstood? Just for information and if he can elaborate on the concept further.

Hari Om Vyas jee,

deep joy of being flowers in narinder's being, when he reads the words in yourvarious messages .............

to your words above, dear divine vyas jee, narinder can only say ............what you already know ..

the self is One ..................

In the One, nought exists but the One ................all is the Play of theSelf ...........

The One-ness , when in play, is the Universe , existence as it is ............prakriti ..... gunas ............

when not in play, The One is in a state of non-existence ................. itis the Great Void that is purnam , ful-ness, infinite being , being andnon-being ( yes and no both ) ...............

there is neither a Centre, nor any circumference, nor beings , nor non-beings ................

from the above, flows an apperception ( not a perception ... please note ), thatthe Centre of the Self-created self, all selfs, all beings, is ONE.

each being is One with that Centre in deep sleep ...............

The yogi becomes One with that Centre in nirvikalpa samadhi .................

and,

suddenly the hitherto entity of the ego,which was till then a seeker, becomesOne with the Sought.... and is no more ...

he enters a timeless state ... the un-knowable state of Self, ... anarvachniya(that, which words cannot convey).....

BUT

the above is only a recollection (knowledge intuitively experienced?) when theego (mind), now a no-mind, becomes an ego again ... this is, perhaps, the stateof being and non-being simultaneously...to the ego, whom the experience has come as GRACE, knowing and not-knowingbecomes One, doing and not-doing becomes not-two.....

actually , he becomes mute.... he cannot speak, or , say....

now, he is ever silent ..... and it is the Great Silence that speaks throughhim ... the SELF now speaks to the self ...........

much flows from this being ... because he is (in reality)no more ...

all is the Self , weaving in the self, the web of joy and love and play, for thesake of the self .....

concepts are no more concepts ....as long as concepts remain concepts, trueknowledge of Silence remains silent ....

and dear divine Vyas jee, we ... all of us are moving towards that Centre....... in fact we are that Centre alone ....the centre that is NOT the centre....

and each one of us one day, some day, comes to realise all that needs to berealised .....

it is concepts and conditioning of the mind that eclipse the Reality,... and ,then, begins the Sadhna ........

and it is our thoughts, words and deeds, that lead to the de-eclipsing ................ are the sadhna ...............

when they lead to the gradual de-eclipsing , they are punya....when they furtherlead us into eclipsing ... they are papa

the measure of true success of our lived life ... is .... how much the distancebetween the self and the Great SELF , has shortened in the present life... wecarry our being with us into the next life ( ....knowledge ?)

what more can narinder say ....?

he knows but little.... only what the Self makes available to him in the Now ,the Moment Now ...ah, narinder finds himself impotent again ....... how to say anything aboutThat, which is not a word !

'love and joy to all the divine sadhaks' ..... is the prayer that rises innarinder's heart ....AUM

Narinder Bhandari--------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

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QUESTION:I seek Narinder's learned clarification just to know as to from where he pickedup aforesaid definitions of "paap" (sin) and "punya" (virtue) ? Or it is selfunderstood? Just for information and if Narinder Bhandari and other Sadhak canelaborate on the concept further.N.B. Vyas----------------------

NEW POSTING

 

 

 

 

 

Any thought(Vichar) or speech (Vani), action (Kriya) - if it makes you feel bad, unhappy, uncomfortable, fearful,worrying within is PAAP, if it makes you feel great, happy, peaceful is PunyaOur bodies are all the time giving the feedback to us at the feeling level.....just be aware and benefit.... get transformed....Or If you think, speak, act without being conscious, it is PAAPWith awareness and understanding of truth, everything you think,speak, act becomes PUNYAThe above are very simple but deeply impacting definitions of PAAP or PUNIYA.........With contemplation, one can benefit instantly.......

Sushil Jain

----------------------Hari OmI agree with Sadhanaji and Naga Narayana. The moment I read these definitions, I felt like asking. Indeed Bhandariji is another gem of this elite group. This group by the grace of God and blessings of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is getting more and more divine with each passing day. Talent with this group is unique and perhaps only of its kind in the entire planet. Welcome again, O narinderji !! In Shashikalaji's words : Oye Tussi great ho Jee !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ----------------------

Punya is our true nature. When we do good deeds(Punya) we are going with our nature and when we do bad(Paap) things, we are going against our nature. We come to know the difference between right and wrong at a very early age. Everytime we do something good we feel happy while a bad deed creates pangs from our conscience. Needless to say we are what we are today because of our past karmas and our present karmas will decide what we will become. That is the reward or punishment for our deeds.

Hari Shanker Deo

-------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Under the Q & A section, you may want to read Questions that were posed to Swamiji and his responses related - SINS AND VIRTUES for additional insights.

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net/Question_Answer.html

From Gita Talk Moderators

Ram Ram

================================

PRIOR POSTING

Narinderji,

Pranaams after Pranaams ... to ... The Center of All ... and to You for theeloquent teachings for us to appreciate our impotence as such wherein the radiiof our locii start shrnking to savour the nectar thereupon.

Pranaams from an epicenter to another which helps merge the two in The One. MySahasra Deergha Danda Namaskaras to You.

Naga Narayana

-----------------------

Dear Sadhak,I never heard /read a better definition of paap and punya then that given by Sadhak Narinderji. Any act, karma, or thought which moves our little ego self to the real Self is punya and vise-e-versa.with Love, a Sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

Hari Om

......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Indeed - Where you have been searching Him so far, Sadhak ?

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B ah, Vyas jee, Vyas jee, Vyas jee................

every word that narinder has shared in this forum speaks only of the search of many lifetimes ...................and the Grace that has silenced that search, in the deep understanding of the One-ness of the word and its source, Silence .........

when Time( mind) enters into the Kingdom of Timelessness( No-mind) ........ the thirst is forever quenched ............... life and living carries on ..................... what else can poor narinder say, and how ?

MIND TO NO-MIND

The distance from Mind to No-mind

Is only a thought sacrificed

It does not exist.

A word unspoken

A touch unreal

A deed dreamt.

The roar of silence

Stillness spanning Time and Space

Deeper and deeper into Being

I descend

Effortlessly

Sans care

Sans fear

Deeper and deeper into Void

Where the eye or the ear exist notNor the dream nor the dreamer

Nor the sweet ignorance of deep sleep

Void

The fullness of experience

Only the fullness of experience

Existence and non-existence ever merging

Into Silence that IS

Just IS.

And, from that No-mind, blossoms life and living ..................... thoughts, words and deeds ........

THANK YOU BELOVED

Thank you Beloved

For the Beautiful Thoughts!

Thoughts that lead to the

Deep Silence of Being

Silence of Being that You Yourself are !!

Silence , the Imperishable Seed !

That erupts,

Grows,

Blossoms and flowers!

Silence,

The Fruit of which ..

Is

Wonderous Words and Thoughts

That lead one again

Unto the Silence of Being .

Ah, thank you Krishna ..........

Thank you Beloved

For your Gift divine.

AUM

narinder -----------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Geeta Sadhaks, Namaskar,

Shri Vyasji desires a learned clarification from Shri Bhandariji, regarding thedefinitions of Paap (Bad Deeds) and Punya (Holy Deeds or Good Deeds). Bhandarijiwill give his learned opinion in due course of time, but in the meanwhile, somethoughts peeped in my brain on this subject and I want to humbly share thosewith Geeta Sadhakas...

Paap and Punya are the concepts, introduced by the Great Thinkers of the Past(GTPs) to establish an ethical order in the society. Any act or deed against theethical rules is a bad deed (sin). In our scriptures, even the King ofGods...Indradev..has gone against the ethical rules. He assumed the the physicalform (Shareer) of Gautam rishi and mated with Gautami in a deliberate absence ofher husband. Actually Indra had tricked Gautam rishi to go to the river for abath at odd hours…This is a great great and the most disgraceful sin.

Killing an innocent and weak lifeform is a sin, but a cat never eats a deadrat..She kills a live rat for her food...it is for her naturalsurvival...because she kills a rat only when she is hungry and needs food. Sokilling an innocent rat is not a paap for the cat.

Helping a sick and needy person in any way is Punya, but giving a big donationfor gaining fame is not an act of Punya.

By the way, there is nobody...no Chitragupta..to keep a record of your Deeds ofPaap and Punya and accordingly send your soul to heaven or hell. If you do badacts, you will be ill-treated by the society and punished by law...that is yourhell...and if you do good acts...the society will respect you...that is yourheaven...

....Gee Waman------------------------

However I ought to refer the following from the message of Bhandariji :

Our conduct can either lead us towards our own Centre ( which is Blissinfinite), or away from it .That conduct , which leads us towards the Centre, istermed Punya, and that , which leads us away from our own Centre true, is called'sin' or papa .

I seek his learned clarification just to know as to from where he picked upaforesaid definitions of "paap" (sin) and "punya" (virtue) ? Or it is selfunderstood? Just for information and if he can elaborate on the concept further.

Hari Om Vyas jee,

deep joy of being flowers in narinder's being, when he reads the words in yourvarious messages .............

to your words above, dear divine vyas jee, narinder can only say ............what you already know ..

the self is One ..................

In the One, nought exists but the One ................all is the Play of theSelf ...........

The One-ness , when in play, is the Universe , existence as it is ............prakriti ..... gunas ............

when not in play, The One is in a state of non-existence ................. itis the Great Void that is purnam , ful-ness, infinite being , being andnon-being ( yes and no both ) ...............

there is neither a Centre, nor any circumference, nor beings , nor non-beings ................

from the above, flows an apperception ( not a perception ... please note ), thatthe Centre of the Self-created self, all selfs, all beings, is ONE.

each being is One with that Centre in deep sleep ...............

The yogi becomes One with that Centre in nirvikalpa samadhi .................

and,

suddenly the hitherto entity of the ego,which was till then a seeker, becomesOne with the Sought.... and is no more ...

he enters a timeless state ... the un-knowable state of Self, ... anarvachniya(that, which words cannot convey).....

BUT

the above is only a recollection (knowledge intuitively experienced?) when theego (mind), now a no-mind, becomes an ego again ... this is, perhaps, the stateof being and non-being simultaneously...to the ego, whom the experience has come as GRACE, knowing and not-knowingbecomes One, doing and not-doing becomes not-two.....

actually , he becomes mute.... he cannot speak, or , say....

now, he is ever silent ..... and it is the Great Silence that speaks throughhim ... the SELF now speaks to the self ...........

much flows from this being ... because he is (in reality)no more ...

all is the Self , weaving in the self, the web of joy and love and play, for thesake of the self .....

concepts are no more concepts ....as long as concepts remain concepts, trueknowledge of Silence remains silent ....

and dear divine Vyas jee, we ... all of us are moving towards that Centre....... in fact we are that Centre alone ....the centre that is NOT the centre....

and each one of us one day, some day, comes to realise all that needs to berealised .....

it is concepts and conditioning of the mind that eclipse the Reality,... and ,then, begins the Sadhna ........

and it is our thoughts, words and deeds, that lead to the de-eclipsing ................ are the sadhna ...............

when they lead to the gradual de-eclipsing , they are punya....when they furtherlead us into eclipsing ... they are papa

the measure of true success of our lived life ... is .... how much the distancebetween the self and the Great SELF , has shortened in the present life... wecarry our being with us into the next life ( ....knowledge ?)

what more can narinder say ....?

he knows but little.... only what the Self makes available to him in the Now ,the Moment Now ...ah, narinder finds himself impotent again ....... how to say anything aboutThat, which is not a word !

'love and joy to all the divine sadhaks' ..... is the prayer that rises innarinder's heart ....AUM

Narinder Bhandari--------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

 

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QUESTION:I seek Narinder's learned clarification just to know as to from where he pickedup aforesaid definitions of "paap" (sin) and "punya" (virtue) ? Or it is selfunderstood? Just for information and if Narinder Bhandari and other Sadhak canelaborate on the concept further.N.B. Vyas----------------------

NEW POSTING

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hari Om

The human life is such that there is paap or punya hidden IN EACH AND EVERY OF THE ACTIONS which you perform, each and every Karma which you make, in each and every role which you play as a human. Gita says – you can not remain without performing karma even for a fraction of a second during your entire life. Gita further says- all karmas have some defects. Hence unless you take some concrete steps , whatever you do is capable of becoming a PAAP (sin) - - Logically ! What are those concrete steps ? Gita says – Convert the Karmas into AKARMAS ! How to do that ? EQUANIMITY !! When you are equanimous, you do not incur a sin . As simple as that !

Swamiji would often say : Punya is your turning towards the God ! Paap is your remaining engrossed in the world !! You cant easily relinquish the world, hence EQUANIMITY in your actions, in your karmas, in your perception, in your attitude, in your Bhavas- make you SINLESS !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----

Any moral and ethical action that helps a fellow human ( animal or any life)and brings us to god consciousness is punya. Any immoral and unethical act that brings pain to others and moves us away from god consciousness is papam( sin). Truth and ahimsa which represent god ,get us closer to the lord.

Prasad iragavarpu, m.d

-----

Namaskar,

 

I have read definitions of Paap and Punya.

 

Thanks

 

I just want to know, sometimes we do mistakes and bad things unknowingly. Get angry with someone without knowing its impact. Will that also known as Paap. Are there any ways to correct these?

 

Regards,

 

Ruchira

PRIOR POSTING

Any thought(Vichar) or speech (Vani), action (Kriya) -

if it makes you feel bad, unhappy, uncomfortable, fearful,worrying within is PAAP, if it makes you feel great, happy, peaceful is Punya

Our bodies are all the time giving the feedback to us at the feeling level.....just be aware and benefit.... get transformed....

Or

If you think, speak, act without being conscious, it is PAAPWith awareness and understanding of truth, everything you think,speak, act becomes PUNYA

The above are very simple but deeply impacting definitions of PAAP or PUNIYA.........With contemplation, one can benefit instantly.......

Sushil Jain

----------------------Hari Om

I agree with Sadhanaji and Naga Narayana. The moment I read these definitions, I felt like asking. Indeed Bhandariji is another gem of this elite group. This group by the grace of God and blessings of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is getting more and more divine with each passing day. Talent with this group is unique and perhaps only of its kind in the entire planet. Welcome again, O narinderji !! In Shashikalaji's words : Oye Tussi great ho Jee !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------

Punya is our true nature. When we do good deeds(Punya) we are going with our nature and when we do bad(Paap) things, we are going against our nature. We come to know the difference between right and wrong at a very early age. Everytime we do something good we feel happy while a bad deed creates pangs from our conscience. Needless to say we are what we are today because of our past karmas and our present karmas will decide what we will become. That is the reward or punishment for our deeds.

Hari Shanker Deo

-------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Under the Q & A section, you may want to read Questions that were posed to Swamiji and his responses related - SINS AND VIRTUES for additional insights.

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net/Question_Answer.html

From Gita Talk Moderators

Ram Ram

 

================================

PRIOR POSTING

Narinderji,

Pranaams after Pranaams ... to ... The Center of All ... and to You for theeloquent teachings for us to appreciate our impotence as such wherein the radiiof our locii start shrnking to savour the nectar thereupon.

Pranaams from an epicenter to another which helps merge the two in The One. MySahasra Deergha Danda Namaskaras to You.

Naga Narayana

-----------------------

Dear Sadhak,I never heard /read a better definition of paap and punya then that given by Sadhak Narinderji. Any act, karma, or thought which moves our little ego self to the real Self is punya and vise-e-versa.with Love, a Sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

Hari Om

......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Indeed - Where you have been searching Him so far, Sadhak ?

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B ah, Vyas jee, Vyas jee, Vyas jee................

every word that narinder has shared in this forum speaks only of the search of many lifetimes ...................and the Grace that has silenced that search, in the deep understanding of the One-ness of the word and its source, Silence .........

when Time( mind) enters into the Kingdom of Timelessness( No-mind) ........ the thirst is forever quenched ............... life and living carries on ..................... what else can poor narinder say, and how ?

MIND TO NO-MIND

The distance from Mind to No-mind

Is only a thought sacrificed

It does not exist.

A word unspoken

A touch unreal

A deed dreamt.

The roar of silence

Stillness spanning Time and Space

Deeper and deeper into Being

I descend

Effortlessly

Sans care

Sans fear

Deeper and deeper into Void

Where the eye or the ear exist notNor the dream nor the dreamer

Nor the sweet ignorance of deep sleep

Void

The fullness of experience

Only the fullness of experience

Existence and non-existence ever merging

Into Silence that IS

Just IS.

And, from that No-mind, blossoms life and living ..................... thoughts, words and deeds ........

THANK YOU BELOVED

Thank you Beloved

For the Beautiful Thoughts!

Thoughts that lead to the

Deep Silence of Being

Silence of Being that You Yourself are !!

Silence , the Imperishable Seed !

That erupts,

Grows,

Blossoms and flowers!

Silence,

The Fruit of which ..

Is

Wonderous Words and Thoughts

That lead one again

Unto the Silence of Being .

Ah, thank you Krishna ..........

Thank you Beloved

For your Gift divine.

AUM

narinder -----------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Geeta Sadhaks, Namaskar,

Shri Vyasji desires a learned clarification from Shri Bhandariji, regarding thedefinitions of Paap (Bad Deeds) and Punya (Holy Deeds or Good Deeds). Bhandarijiwill give his learned opinion in due course of time, but in the meanwhile, somethoughts peeped in my brain on this subject and I want to humbly share thosewith Geeta Sadhakas...

Paap and Punya are the concepts, introduced by the Great Thinkers of the Past(GTPs) to establish an ethical order in the society. Any act or deed against theethical rules is a bad deed (sin). In our scriptures, even the King ofGods...Indradev..has gone against the ethical rules. He assumed the the physicalform (Shareer) of Gautam rishi and mated with Gautami in a deliberate absence ofher husband. Actually Indra had tricked Gautam rishi to go to the river for abath at odd hours…This is a great great and the most disgraceful sin.

Killing an innocent and weak lifeform is a sin, but a cat never eats a deadrat..She kills a live rat for her food...it is for her naturalsurvival...because she kills a rat only when she is hungry and needs food. Sokilling an innocent rat is not a paap for the cat.

Helping a sick and needy person in any way is Punya, but giving a big donationfor gaining fame is not an act of Punya.

By the way, there is nobody...no Chitragupta..to keep a record of your Deeds ofPaap and Punya and accordingly send your soul to heaven or hell. If you do badacts, you will be ill-treated by the society and punished by law...that is yourhell...and if you do good acts...the society will respect you...that is yourheaven...

....Gee Waman------------------------

However I ought to refer the following from the message of Bhandariji :

Our conduct can either lead us towards our own Centre ( which is Blissinfinite), or away from it .That conduct , which leads us towards the Centre, istermed Punya, and that , which leads us away from our own Centre true, is called'sin' or papa .

I seek his learned clarification just to know as to from where he picked upaforesaid definitions of "paap" (sin) and "punya" (virtue) ? Or it is selfunderstood? Just for information and if he can elaborate on the concept further.

Hari Om Vyas jee,

deep joy of being flowers in narinder's being, when he reads the words in yourvarious messages .............

to your words above, dear divine vyas jee, narinder can only say ............what you already know ..

the self is One ..................

In the One, nought exists but the One ................all is the Play of theSelf ...........

The One-ness , when in play, is the Universe , existence as it is ............prakriti ..... gunas ............

when not in play, The One is in a state of non-existence ................. itis the Great Void that is purnam , ful-ness, infinite being , being andnon-being ( yes and no both ) ...............

there is neither a Centre, nor any circumference, nor beings , nor non-beings ................

from the above, flows an apperception ( not a perception ... please note ), thatthe Centre of the Self-created self, all selfs, all beings, is ONE.

each being is One with that Centre in deep sleep ...............

The yogi becomes One with that Centre in nirvikalpa samadhi .................

and,

suddenly the hitherto entity of the ego,which was till then a seeker, becomesOne with the Sought.... and is no more ...

he enters a timeless state ... the un-knowable state of Self, ... anarvachniya(that, which words cannot convey).....

BUT

the above is only a recollection (knowledge intuitively experienced?) when theego (mind), now a no-mind, becomes an ego again ... this is, perhaps, the stateof being and non-being simultaneously...to the ego, whom the experience has come as GRACE, knowing and not-knowingbecomes One, doing and not-doing becomes not-two.....

actually , he becomes mute.... he cannot speak, or , say....

now, he is ever silent ..... and it is the Great Silence that speaks throughhim ... the SELF now speaks to the self ...........

much flows from this being ... because he is (in reality)no more ...

all is the Self , weaving in the self, the web of joy and love and play, for thesake of the self .....

concepts are no more concepts ....as long as concepts remain concepts, trueknowledge of Silence remains silent ....

and dear divine Vyas jee, we ... all of us are moving towards that Centre....... in fact we are that Centre alone ....the centre that is NOT the centre....

and each one of us one day, some day, comes to realise all that needs to berealised .....

it is concepts and conditioning of the mind that eclipse the Reality,... and ,then, begins the Sadhna ........

and it is our thoughts, words and deeds, that lead to the de-eclipsing ................ are the sadhna ...............

when they lead to the gradual de-eclipsing , they are punya....when they furtherlead us into eclipsing ... they are papa

the measure of true success of our lived life ... is .... how much the distancebetween the self and the Great SELF , has shortened in the present life... wecarry our being with us into the next life ( ....knowledge ?)

what more can narinder say ....?

he knows but little.... only what the Self makes available to him in the Now ,the Moment Now ...ah, narinder finds himself impotent again ....... how to say anything aboutThat, which is not a word !

'love and joy to all the divine sadhaks' ..... is the prayer that rises innarinder's heart ....AUM

Narinder Bhandari--------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

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QUESTION:I seek Narinder's learned clarification just to know as to from where he pickedup aforesaid definitions of "paap" (sin) and "punya" (virtue) ? Or it is selfunderstood? Just for information and if Narinder Bhandari and other Sadhak canelaborate on the concept further.N.B. Vyas----------------------

NEW POSTING

Hari 0mRuchiraji ! Welcome ! Good Q. Paap or Punya basically are governed by "bhavas" (inner expressions). If you did not know an action was paap, but later on you knew, then also sin is a sin. Because the other party got hurt anyway. Though in such a case intensity and "other impacts" get reduced comparatively. Every deed causes some "imprints" on your "antahkarana". These imprints in an accumulated form may even induce you to repeat the same, cause a habit formation and may snatch away your inner peace. This may get reduced when you did something unknowingly/by mistake/unintentionally. But, of course, befitting adverse circumstances will always come in future as a result. (You will get hurt and might find out , the other party to be unknowing of hurt to you- as you were in the past). Hence carefulness is always better. Ways to correct is- a regret inside, and a resolution not to repeat it. Turning towards Paramatma also is a remedy and so is resorting to Equanimity.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

--------

 

Dear Sadaks,

Sin is that which one' s mind says it is incorrect - in action, thought, speech. Dharma Vyajer (Refered as Gyani) in Maha Bharat is a slaughterer. Sri Krishna says it that man` s caste rights. But the same is forbidden to Sadaks, Sanyasins, Bhramins Etc.

General Sin is hurting someone by words, sight- looking staringly (As per script Ganeswari), by insults, by passing knowingly or unknowly comments on someone, by beating or physically hurting.Etc

Virtue is to see God in every living thing, softly speaking to others, helping anyone even persons who dislike you, forgiving and forgeting others insults and abuses, living Dhamic life, being divine in thoughts Etc

The amount of sins reduces if some one abuses you. The amount Virtue increases when you forget their abuses. Ref: Upanashids.

Only if Sins and Virtue is completely not in one` s account, he liberates.

Example: Saint Sarabanger was Tapodhana (He had Tapas and Yagna Pala) to great extent in his account. His time to depart from world came. Indra came with Palanquin to take him and Sri Bramaji also came with another Chariot to take him. Sarabagaer said wait, "Wait Indra and Brama, Sri Rama is approaching my Ashram. I will pay my respects and then come". Sri Rama came and Sarabagar did Paadha Pooja (Prayer by washing feet) to Sri Rama saying, " Samasta Puniya, Tapas/Yagniya or Papa are surrendered to yout feet Oh my Bagavan". Next minute Sarabanger disappeared to the surprise of Indra and Bramaji, who then knew Sarabanger attained Moksha (Vaikunt). Refer: Srimat Ramayan Sarabanga Moksha

If one remains stedfast atleast during death time on Bagavan, HE take care of HIS devotee in balancing sins and Virtue and eventually removing them. Example: Ajameel, Pingala prostitute lady, Karn/ Karna Duryodhan friend, Gajendra the Elephant Etc

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

--

Narendrji's comments at the end of the article remind me of the great 'Naasadiya Sukta' of Rigveda which eloborates the concept of Being and non-Being; Existence and non-existence etc. as the beginning of creation when all the states of energy are in equilibrium and there is nothing and everything. Then He willed to make a slight movement (spandana) that is the beginning of creation. The Sukata ends in question mark Is it? or Is it not? who knows? Only He knows and perhaps He may not even know. To us the mortals it appears that two things are needed to create anything "Knowledge" and "Spandana" or action. Taking actions to use our knowledge to create something beautiful that everybody can enjoy the bliss of it is the ultimate goal. Be one with 'Sat ChiT Ananda'. This is a powerful Sukta often quoted by great physicists looking for "What was there before the Big-Bang?". This makes us feel how deeply the Seers of the Sanatana Dharma challenged their mind to go to reach the God. All our efforts in understanding the Gita verses lead us there. May God bless us all with that wisdom knowing which everything else will be known (realized). I enjoy the discussions of this group.

B.Vempaty

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

The human life is such that there is paap or punya hidden IN EACH AND EVERY OF THE ACTIONS which you perform, each and every Karma which you make, in each and every role which you play as a human. Gita says – you can not remain without performing karma even for a fraction of a second during your entire life. Gita further says- all karmas have some defects. Hence unless you take some concrete steps , whatever you do is capable of becoming a PAAP (sin) - - Logically ! What are those concrete steps ? Gita says – Convert the Karmas into AKARMAS ! How to do that ? EQUANIMITY !! When you are equanimous, you do not incur a sin . As simple as that !

Swamiji would often say : Punya is your turning towards the God ! Paap is your remaining engrossed in the world !! You cant easily relinquish the world, hence EQUANIMITY in your actions, in your karmas, in your perception, in your attitude, in your Bhavas- make you SINLESS !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----

Any moral and ethical action that helps a fellow human ( animal or any life)and brings us to god consciousness is punya. Any immoral and unethical act that brings pain to others and moves us away from god consciousness is papam( sin). Truth and ahimsa which represent god ,get us closer to the lord.

Prasad iragavarpu, m.d

-----

Namaskar, I have read definitions of Paap and Punya. Thanks I just want to know, sometimes we do mistakes and bad things unknowingly. Get angry with someone without knowing its impact. Will that also known as Paap. Are there any ways to correct these? Regards, RuchiraPRIOR POSTING

Any thought(Vichar) or speech (Vani), action (Kriya) -

if it makes you feel bad, unhappy, uncomfortable, fearful,worrying within is PAAP, if it makes you feel great, happy, peaceful is Punya

Our bodies are all the time giving the feedback to us at the feeling level.....just be aware and benefit.... get transformed....

Or

If you think, speak, act without being conscious, it is PAAPWith awareness and understanding of truth, everything you think,speak, act becomes PUNYA

The above are very simple but deeply impacting definitions of PAAP or PUNIYA.........With contemplation, one can benefit instantly.......

Sushil Jain

----------------------Hari Om

I agree with Sadhanaji and Naga Narayana. The moment I read these definitions, I felt like asking. Indeed Bhandariji is another gem of this elite group. This group by the grace of God and blessings of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is getting more and more divine with each passing day. Talent with this group is unique and perhaps only of its kind in the entire planet. Welcome again, O narinderji !! In Shashikalaji's words : Oye Tussi great ho Jee !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------

Punya is our true nature. When we do good deeds(Punya) we are going with our nature and when we do bad(Paap) things, we are going against our nature. We come to know the difference between right and wrong at a very early age. Everytime we do something good we feel happy while a bad deed creates pangs from our conscience. Needless to say we are what we are today because of our past karmas and our present karmas will decide what we will become. That is the reward or punishment for our deeds.

Hari Shanker Deo

-------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Under the Q & A section, you may want to read Questions that were posed to Swamiji and his responses related - SINS AND VIRTUES for additional insights.

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net/Question_Answer.html

From Gita Talk Moderators

Ram Ram

 

================================

PRIOR POSTING

Narinderji,

Pranaams after Pranaams ... to ... The Center of All ... and to You for theeloquent teachings for us to appreciate our impotence as such wherein the radiiof our locii start shrnking to savour the nectar thereupon.

Pranaams from an epicenter to another which helps merge the two in The One. MySahasra Deergha Danda Namaskaras to You.

Naga Narayana

-----------------------

Dear Sadhak,I never heard /read a better definition of paap and punya then that given by Sadhak Narinderji. Any act, karma, or thought which moves our little ego self to the real Self is punya and vise-e-versa.with Love, a Sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

Hari Om

......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Indeed - Where you have been searching Him so far, Sadhak ?

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B ah, Vyas jee, Vyas jee, Vyas jee................

every word that narinder has shared in this forum speaks only of the search of many lifetimes ...................and the Grace that has silenced that search, in the deep understanding of the One-ness of the word and its source, Silence .........

when Time( mind) enters into the Kingdom of Timelessness( No-mind) ........ the thirst is forever quenched ............... life and living carries on ..................... what else can poor narinder say, and how ?

MIND TO NO-MIND

The distance from Mind to No-mind

Is only a thought sacrificed

It does not exist.

A word unspoken

A touch unreal

A deed dreamt.

The roar of silence

Stillness spanning Time and Space

Deeper and deeper into Being

I descend

Effortlessly

Sans care

Sans fear

Deeper and deeper into Void

Where the eye or the ear exist notNor the dream nor the dreamer

Nor the sweet ignorance of deep sleep

Void

The fullness of experience

Only the fullness of experience

Existence and non-existence ever merging

Into Silence that IS

Just IS.

And, from that No-mind, blossoms life and living ..................... thoughts, words and deeds ........

THANK YOU BELOVED

Thank you Beloved

For the Beautiful Thoughts!

Thoughts that lead to the

Deep Silence of Being

Silence of Being that You Yourself are !!

Silence , the Imperishable Seed !

That erupts,

Grows,

Blossoms and flowers!

Silence,

The Fruit of which ..

Is

Wonderous Words and Thoughts

That lead one again

Unto the Silence of Being .

Ah, thank you Krishna ..........

Thank you Beloved

For your Gift divine.

AUM

narinder -----------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Geeta Sadhaks, Namaskar,

Shri Vyasji desires a learned clarification from Shri Bhandariji, regarding thedefinitions of Paap (Bad Deeds) and Punya (Holy Deeds or Good Deeds). Bhandarijiwill give his learned opinion in due course of time, but in the meanwhile, somethoughts peeped in my brain on this subject and I want to humbly share thosewith Geeta Sadhakas...

Paap and Punya are the concepts, introduced by the Great Thinkers of the Past(GTPs) to establish an ethical order in the society. Any act or deed against theethical rules is a bad deed (sin). In our scriptures, even the King ofGods...Indradev..has gone against the ethical rules. He assumed the the physicalform (Shareer) of Gautam rishi and mated with Gautami in a deliberate absence ofher husband. Actually Indra had tricked Gautam rishi to go to the river for abath at odd hours…This is a great great and the most disgraceful sin.

Killing an innocent and weak lifeform is a sin, but a cat never eats a deadrat..She kills a live rat for her food...it is for her naturalsurvival...because she kills a rat only when she is hungry and needs food. Sokilling an innocent rat is not a paap for the cat.

Helping a sick and needy person in any way is Punya, but giving a big donationfor gaining fame is not an act of Punya.

By the way, there is nobody...no Chitragupta..to keep a record of your Deeds ofPaap and Punya and accordingly send your soul to heaven or hell. If you do badacts, you will be ill-treated by the society and punished by law...that is yourhell...and if you do good acts...the society will respect you...that is yourheaven...

....Gee Waman------------------------

However I ought to refer the following from the message of Bhandariji :

Our conduct can either lead us towards our own Centre ( which is Blissinfinite), or away from it .That conduct , which leads us towards the Centre, istermed Punya, and that , which leads us away from our own Centre true, is called'sin' or papa .

I seek his learned clarification just to know as to from where he picked upaforesaid definitions of "paap" (sin) and "punya" (virtue) ? Or it is selfunderstood? Just for information and if he can elaborate on the concept further.

Hari Om Vyas jee,

deep joy of being flowers in narinder's being, when he reads the words in yourvarious messages .............

to your words above, dear divine vyas jee, narinder can only say ............what you already know ..

the self is One ..................

In the One, nought exists but the One ................all is the Play of theSelf ...........

The One-ness , when in play, is the Universe , existence as it is ............prakriti ..... gunas ............

when not in play, The One is in a state of non-existence ................. itis the Great Void that is purnam , ful-ness, infinite being , being andnon-being ( yes and no both ) ...............

there is neither a Centre, nor any circumference, nor beings , nor non-beings ................

from the above, flows an apperception ( not a perception ... please note ), thatthe Centre of the Self-created self, all selfs, all beings, is ONE.

each being is One with that Centre in deep sleep ...............

The yogi becomes One with that Centre in nirvikalpa samadhi .................

and,

suddenly the hitherto entity of the ego,which was till then a seeker, becomesOne with the Sought.... and is no more ...

he enters a timeless state ... the un-knowable state of Self, ... anarvachniya(that, which words cannot convey).....

BUT

the above is only a recollection (knowledge intuitively experienced?) when theego (mind), now a no-mind, becomes an ego again ... this is, perhaps, the stateof being and non-being simultaneously...to the ego, whom the experience has come as GRACE, knowing and not-knowingbecomes One, doing and not-doing becomes not-two.....

actually , he becomes mute.... he cannot speak, or , say....

now, he is ever silent ..... and it is the Great Silence that speaks throughhim ... the SELF now speaks to the self ...........

much flows from this being ... because he is (in reality)no more ...

all is the Self , weaving in the self, the web of joy and love and play, for thesake of the self .....

concepts are no more concepts ....as long as concepts remain concepts, trueknowledge of Silence remains silent ....

and dear divine Vyas jee, we ... all of us are moving towards that Centre....... in fact we are that Centre alone ....the centre that is NOT the centre....

and each one of us one day, some day, comes to realise all that needs to berealised .....

it is concepts and conditioning of the mind that eclipse the Reality,... and ,then, begins the Sadhna ........

and it is our thoughts, words and deeds, that lead to the de-eclipsing ................ are the sadhna ...............

when they lead to the gradual de-eclipsing , they are punya....when they furtherlead us into eclipsing ... they are papa

the measure of true success of our lived life ... is .... how much the distancebetween the self and the Great SELF , has shortened in the present life... wecarry our being with us into the next life ( ....knowledge ?)

what more can narinder say ....?

he knows but little.... only what the Self makes available to him in the Now ,the Moment Now ...ah, narinder finds himself impotent again ....... how to say anything aboutThat, which is not a word !

'love and joy to all the divine sadhaks' ..... is the prayer that rises innarinder's heart ....AUM

Narinder Bhandari--------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

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RELATED QUESTION(1) There is general public belief that the pap (sins) and the punya (virtues) done by a

human being are accumulated / tallied in the ChitraGupta (an assistant

for Lord Yama of Naraka - Hell) to declare a final score. It is also

believed that the final score against the person will decide whether a

person goes to hell or heaven. There are many stories in the puranas

about the pap (sins) and the punya (virtues). Few references are there in

Vedas/upanishads and Gita also.

(2) Against this popular belief, we see that man is vehemently and

openly is making pap and we do not see any recourse to this. Even the

corrective systems are so corrupted, the belief does not seem to be

true.

I would request to enlighten me what Gita says about (1) and how does

Gita justify (2) above.

Regards

Venu Komanduri

--

QUESTION:I seek Narinder's learned clarification just to know as to from where he pickedup aforesaid definitions of "paap" (sin) and "punya" (virtue) ? Or it is selfunderstood? Just for information and if Narinder Bhandari and other Sadhak canelaborate on the concept further.N.B. Vyas----------------------

NEW POSTING

Dear Sadhak insight

Read chapter sixteen in detail and you will find what are good virtues and what are bad virtues.Similaarly try to distinguish between what is good and what is bad,When you act upon bad elements then it is Papa and what you do good it falls within Punya.Ultimately every thing is judged by the law of your karmas ( actions ) and credit is given according to this law.This is my short understandings .Please judge and let me know your views

 

Truly yoursS S Bhatt

--------

The Sukata ends in question mark ...........Is it? or Is it not? who knows? Only He knows and perhaps He may not even know.

that's beautiful B Vempaty Jee.............. thank you for the great ' Nasadeeya Sukta' !

WHO KNOWS

Says the wave, Beloved Ocean, Dear Lord... I choose.. I choose to move towards thee

Laments the wave, My beloved... Difficult.... Difficult is the Path,

The Path towards thee

Strength, my Lord, grant me strength.... Forsake me not

Asserts the wave,....O Light, O Lord, my Love, I surrender

I rejoice in my surrender.... In silence the wave sings of mergence blissful,

In You I merge, I merge into You

Thus do I, Commit Harakiri I commit the ultimate suicide

The ultimate suicide of the Vedas ....What Joy.... The voice of the wave, I..I

Always I....I, I, I

BUT

Did it choose? Did it move? Did it pray? Did it surrender? Did it merge? Did it die?

Is it no more? Is it no more? Will it be nevermore?

Who knows, who knows, who knows! When the wave is no more,

Who knows, who knows, who knows! Was it ever there?

Was it there indeed? Did it toil and boil? When the wave is no more,

Who knows, who knows, who knows!

And is there an Ocean?

The Lord of all, The God of worship,

Who knows, who knows, who knows!

AND YET,

Verily,

He knows, He knows, He knows!

Only HE knows !

THIS, narinder now knows

He knows, He knows, He knows!

And so will you know it one day, some day,

Only.... say Yes TODAY.

AUM

narinder

 

Hari 0mRuchiraji ! Welcome ! Good Q. Paap or Punya basically are governed by "bhavas" (inner expressions). If you did not know an action was paap, but later on you knew, then also sin is a sin. Because the other party got hurt anyway. Though in such a case intensity and "other impacts" get reduced comparatively. Every deed causes some "imprints" on your "antahkarana". These imprints in an accumulated form may even induce you to repeat the same, cause a habit formation and may snatch away your inner peace. This may get reduced when you did something unknowingly/by mistake/unintentionally. But, of course, befitting adverse circumstances will always come in future as a result. (You will get hurt and might find out , the other party to be unknowing of hurt to you- as you were in the past). Hence carefulness is always better. Ways to correct is- a regret inside, and a resolution not to repeat it. Turning towards Paramatma also is a remedy and so is resorting to Equanimity.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

--------

 

Dear Sadaks,

Sin is that which one' s mind says it is incorrect - in action, thought, speech. Dharma Vyajer (Refered as Gyani) in Maha Bharat is a slaughterer. Sri Krishna says it that man` s caste rights. But the same is forbidden to Sadaks, Sanyasins, Bhramins Etc.

General Sin is hurting someone by words, sight- looking staringly (As per script Ganeswari), by insults, by passing knowingly or unknowly comments on someone, by beating or physically hurting.Etc

Virtue is to see God in every living thing, softly speaking to others, helping anyone even persons who dislike you, forgiving and forgeting others insults and abuses, living Dhamic life, being divine in thoughts Etc

The amount of sins reduces if some one abuses you. The amount Virtue increases when you forget their abuses. Ref: Upanashids.

Only if Sins and Virtue is completely not in one` s account, he liberates.

Example: Saint Sarabanger was Tapodhana (He had Tapas and Yagna Pala) to great extent in his account. His time to depart from world came. Indra came with Palanquin to take him and Sri Bramaji also came with another Chariot to take him. Sarabagaer said wait, "Wait Indra and Brama, Sri Rama is approaching my Ashram. I will pay my respects and then come". Sri Rama came and Sarabagar did Paadha Pooja (Prayer by washing feet) to Sri Rama saying, " Samasta Puniya, Tapas/Yagniya or Papa are surrendered to yout feet Oh my Bagavan". Next minute Sarabanger disappeared to the surprise of Indra and Bramaji, who then knew Sarabanger attained Moksha (Vaikunt). Refer: Srimat Ramayan Sarabanga Moksha

If one remains stedfast atleast during death time on Bagavan, HE take care of HIS devotee in balancing sins and Virtue and eventually removing them. Example: Ajameel, Pingala prostitute lady, Karn/ Karna Duryodhan friend, Gajendra the Elephant Etc

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

--

Narendrji's comments at the end of the article remind me of the great 'Naasadiya Sukta' of Rigveda which eloborates the concept of Being and non-Being; Existence and non-existence etc. as the beginning of creation when all the states of energy are in equilibrium and there is nothing and everything. Then He willed to make a slight movement (spandana) that is the beginning of creation. The Sukata ends in question mark Is it? or Is it not? who knows? Only He knows and perhaps He may not even know. To us the mortals it appears that two things are needed to create anything "Knowledge" and "Spandana" or action. Taking actions to use our knowledge to create something beautiful that everybody can enjoy the bliss of it is the ultimate goal. Be one with 'Sat ChiT Ananda'. This is a powerful Sukta often quoted by great physicists looking for "What was there before the Big-Bang?". This makes us feel how deeply the Seers of the Sanatana Dharma challenged their mind to go to reach the God. All our efforts in understanding the Gita verses lead us there. May God bless us all with that wisdom knowing which everything else will be known (realized). I enjoy the discussions of this group.

B.Vempaty

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

The human life is such that there is paap or punya hidden IN EACH AND EVERY OF THE ACTIONS which you perform, each and every Karma which you make, in each and every role which you play as a human. Gita says – you can not remain without performing karma even for a fraction of a second during your entire life. Gita further says- all karmas have some defects. Hence unless you take some concrete steps , whatever you do is capable of becoming a PAAP (sin) - - Logically ! What are those concrete steps ? Gita says – Convert the Karmas into AKARMAS ! How to do that ? EQUANIMITY !! When you are equanimous, you do not incur a sin . As simple as that !

Swamiji would often say : Punya is your turning towards the God ! Paap is your remaining engrossed in the world !! You cant easily relinquish the world, hence EQUANIMITY in your actions, in your karmas, in your perception, in your attitude, in your Bhavas- make you SINLESS !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----

Any moral and ethical action that helps a fellow human ( animal or any life)and brings us to god consciousness is punya. Any immoral and unethical act that brings pain to others and moves us away from god consciousness is papam( sin). Truth and ahimsa which represent god ,get us closer to the lord.

Prasad iragavarpu, m.d

-----

Namaskar, I have read definitions of Paap and Punya. Thanks I just want to know, sometimes we do mistakes and bad things unknowingly. Get angry with someone without knowing its impact. Will that also known as Paap. Are there any ways to correct these? Regards, RuchiraPRIOR POSTING

Any thought(Vichar) or speech (Vani), action (Kriya) -

if it makes you feel bad, unhappy, uncomfortable, fearful,worrying within is PAAP, if it makes you feel great, happy, peaceful is Punya

Our bodies are all the time giving the feedback to us at the feeling level.....just be aware and benefit.... get transformed....

Or

If you think, speak, act without being conscious, it is PAAPWith awareness and understanding of truth, everything you think,speak, act becomes PUNYA

The above are very simple but deeply impacting definitions of PAAP or PUNIYA.........With contemplation, one can benefit instantly.......

Sushil Jain

----------------------Hari Om

I agree with Sadhanaji and Naga Narayana. The moment I read these definitions, I felt like asking. Indeed Bhandariji is another gem of this elite group. This group by the grace of God and blessings of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is getting more and more divine with each passing day. Talent with this group is unique and perhaps only of its kind in the entire planet. Welcome again, O narinderji !! In Shashikalaji's words : Oye Tussi great ho Jee !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------

Punya is our true nature. When we do good deeds(Punya) we are going with our nature and when we do bad(Paap) things, we are going against our nature. We come to know the difference between right and wrong at a very early age. Everytime we do something good we feel happy while a bad deed creates pangs from our conscience. Needless to say we are what we are today because of our past karmas and our present karmas will decide what we will become. That is the reward or punishment for our deeds.

Hari Shanker Deo

-------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Under the Q & A section, you may want to read Questions that were posed to Swamiji and his responses related - SINS AND VIRTUES for additional insights.

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net/Question_Answer.html

From Gita Talk Moderators

Ram Ram

 

================================

PRIOR POSTING

Narinderji,

Pranaams after Pranaams ... to ... The Center of All ... and to You for theeloquent teachings for us to appreciate our impotence as such wherein the radiiof our locii start shrnking to savour the nectar thereupon.

Pranaams from an epicenter to another which helps merge the two in The One. MySahasra Deergha Danda Namaskaras to You.

Naga Narayana

-----------------------

Dear Sadhak,I never heard /read a better definition of paap and punya then that given by Sadhak Narinderji. Any act, karma, or thought which moves our little ego self to the real Self is punya and vise-e-versa.with Love, a Sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

Hari Om

......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Indeed - Where you have been searching Him so far, Sadhak ?

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B ah, Vyas jee, Vyas jee, Vyas jee................

every word that narinder has shared in this forum speaks only of the search of many lifetimes ...................and the Grace that has silenced that search, in the deep understanding of the One-ness of the word and its source, Silence .........

when Time( mind) enters into the Kingdom of Timelessness( No-mind) ........ the thirst is forever quenched ............... life and living carries on ..................... what else can poor narinder say, and how ?

MIND TO NO-MIND

The distance from Mind to No-mind

Is only a thought sacrificed

It does not exist.

A word unspoken

A touch unreal

A deed dreamt.

The roar of silence

Stillness spanning Time and Space

Deeper and deeper into Being

I descend

Effortlessly

Sans care

Sans fear

Deeper and deeper into Void

Where the eye or the ear exist notNor the dream nor the dreamer

Nor the sweet ignorance of deep sleep

Void

The fullness of experience

Only the fullness of experience

Existence and non-existence ever merging

Into Silence that IS

Just IS.

And, from that No-mind, blossoms life and living ..................... thoughts, words and deeds ........

THANK YOU BELOVED

Thank you Beloved

For the Beautiful Thoughts!

Thoughts that lead to the

Deep Silence of Being

Silence of Being that You Yourself are !!

Silence , the Imperishable Seed !

That erupts,

Grows,

Blossoms and flowers!

Silence,

The Fruit of which ..

Is

Wonderous Words and Thoughts

That lead one again

Unto the Silence of Being .

Ah, thank you Krishna ..........

Thank you Beloved

For your Gift divine.

AUM

narinder -----------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Geeta Sadhaks, Namaskar,

Shri Vyasji desires a learned clarification from Shri Bhandariji, regarding thedefinitions of Paap (Bad Deeds) and Punya (Holy Deeds or Good Deeds). Bhandarijiwill give his learned opinion in due course of time, but in the meanwhile, somethoughts peeped in my brain on this subject and I want to humbly share thosewith Geeta Sadhakas...

Paap and Punya are the concepts, introduced by the Great Thinkers of the Past(GTPs) to establish an ethical order in the society. Any act or deed against theethical rules is a bad deed (sin). In our scriptures, even the King ofGods...Indradev..has gone against the ethical rules. He assumed the the physicalform (Shareer) of Gautam rishi and mated with Gautami in a deliberate absence ofher husband. Actually Indra had tricked Gautam rishi to go to the river for abath at odd hours…This is a great great and the most disgraceful sin.

Killing an innocent and weak lifeform is a sin, but a cat never eats a deadrat..She kills a live rat for her food...it is for her naturalsurvival...because she kills a rat only when she is hungry and needs food. Sokilling an innocent rat is not a paap for the cat.

Helping a sick and needy person in any way is Punya, but giving a big donationfor gaining fame is not an act of Punya.

By the way, there is nobody...no Chitragupta..to keep a record of your Deeds ofPaap and Punya and accordingly send your soul to heaven or hell. If you do badacts, you will be ill-treated by the society and punished by law...that is yourhell...and if you do good acts...the society will respect you...that is yourheaven...

....Gee Waman------------------------

However I ought to refer the following from the message of Bhandariji :

Our conduct can either lead us towards our own Centre ( which is Blissinfinite), or away from it .That conduct , which leads us towards the Centre, istermed Punya, and that , which leads us away from our own Centre true, is called'sin' or papa .

I seek his learned clarification just to know as to from where he picked upaforesaid definitions of "paap" (sin) and "punya" (virtue) ? Or it is selfunderstood? Just for information and if he can elaborate on the concept further.

Hari Om Vyas jee,

deep joy of being flowers in narinder's being, when he reads the words in yourvarious messages .............

to your words above, dear divine vyas jee, narinder can only say ............what you already know ..

the self is One ..................

In the One, nought exists but the One ................all is the Play of theSelf ...........

The One-ness , when in play, is the Universe , existence as it is ............prakriti ..... gunas ............

when not in play, The One is in a state of non-existence ................. itis the Great Void that is purnam , ful-ness, infinite being , being andnon-being ( yes and no both ) ...............

there is neither a Centre, nor any circumference, nor beings , nor non-beings ................

from the above, flows an apperception ( not a perception ... please note ), thatthe Centre of the Self-created self, all selfs, all beings, is ONE.

each being is One with that Centre in deep sleep ...............

The yogi becomes One with that Centre in nirvikalpa samadhi .................

and,

suddenly the hitherto entity of the ego,which was till then a seeker, becomesOne with the Sought.... and is no more ...

he enters a timeless state ... the un-knowable state of Self, ... anarvachniya(that, which words cannot convey).....

BUT

the above is only a recollection (knowledge intuitively experienced?) when theego (mind), now a no-mind, becomes an ego again ... this is, perhaps, the stateof being and non-being simultaneously...to the ego, whom the experience has come as GRACE, knowing and not-knowingbecomes One, doing and not-doing becomes not-two.....

actually , he becomes mute.... he cannot speak, or , say....

now, he is ever silent ..... and it is the Great Silence that speaks throughhim ... the SELF now speaks to the self ...........

much flows from this being ... because he is (in reality)no more ...

all is the Self , weaving in the self, the web of joy and love and play, for thesake of the self .....

concepts are no more concepts ....as long as concepts remain concepts, trueknowledge of Silence remains silent ....

and dear divine Vyas jee, we ... all of us are moving towards that Centre....... in fact we are that Centre alone ....the centre that is NOT the centre....

and each one of us one day, some day, comes to realise all that needs to berealised .....

it is concepts and conditioning of the mind that eclipse the Reality,... and ,then, begins the Sadhna ........

and it is our thoughts, words and deeds, that lead to the de-eclipsing ................ are the sadhna ...............

when they lead to the gradual de-eclipsing , they are punya....when they furtherlead us into eclipsing ... they are papa

the measure of true success of our lived life ... is .... how much the distancebetween the self and the Great SELF , has shortened in the present life... wecarry our being with us into the next life ( ....knowledge ?)

what more can narinder say ....?

he knows but little.... only what the Self makes available to him in the Now ,the Moment Now ...ah, narinder finds himself impotent again ....... how to say anything aboutThat, which is not a word !

'love and joy to all the divine sadhaks' ..... is the prayer that rises innarinder's heart ....AUM

Narinder Bhandari--------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

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RELATED QUESTION(1) There is general public belief that the pap (sins) and the punya (virtues) done by a

human being are accumulated / tallied in the ChitraGupta (an assistant

for Lord Yama of Naraka - Hell) to declare a final score. It is also

believed that the final score against the person will decide whether a

person goes to hell or heaven. There are many stories in the puranas

about the pap (sins) and the punya (virtues). Few references are there in

Vedas/upanishads and Gita also.

(2) Against this popular belief, we see that man is vehemently and

openly is making pap and we do not see any recourse to this. Even the

corrective systems are so corrupted, the belief does not seem to be

true.

I would request to enlighten me what Gita says about (1) and how does

Gita justify (2) above.

Regards

Venu Komanduri--QUESTION:I seek Narinder's learned clarification just to know as to from where he pickedup aforesaid definitions of "paap" (sin) and "punya" (virtue) ? Or it is selfunderstood? Just for information and if Narinder Bhandari and other Sadhak canelaborate on the concept further.N.B. Vyas----------------------NEW POSTINGJai Sri KrishnaAny action to fulfil our desires is sin (paap), but if it is for the benefit of others then virtue (punya).Ram RamAshok Goenka--------------------------Shree Hari-

Dear Venu,

Having grown up in a society that in general believe, put

simplistically, that the good go to heaven, and the bad go to hell.

I was always confronted in my thoughts of this strange dichotomy, "one

more sin than Fred off to hell , while Fred goes to heaven".

Bible quotes: "Tell us master . Who sinned that, this man be born

blind, he or his parents?"

".....He (Jesus) replied.... but Elias has come but you knew him

not.......then they (the disciples) knew he spoke of John the Baptist"

N.B Elias died 300 years before the life of John the Baptist. I will let

those lines speak for themselves!

A Sadhak, has mentioned Bhagavad-Gita Ch. 16.

Ch 16 Verses 18-19:

Given over to egotism, brute force, arrogance, lust and anger etc. and

calumniating others, they hate ME (the inner controller of all)

dwelling in there own bodies as well as those in others.

These haters, sinful, cruel and vilest among men, I cast again and again

into demoniacal wombs in this world.

If you wish to elevate your thoughts on this subject further, if you

have access to "Essence of Yogavaasishtha ", some great reading there,

but the simple line from, 'The Story of Bhusunda' Ch.23 has a simple

profound depth: 'When the affair of the world ceases at the end of the

world-cycle, I just remain in space devoid of all imagination'.

Om... Shanti...

Mike (K).---------------------Shree Hari Ram Ram When asked a similar question, Swamiji answered the following : From Prashnouttermanimala - Question: Where is the accumulated storehouse of sins and virtues that are resulting from all our actions ?It is stored in the inner conscience "antahkarna", just like - electricity that is being used is recorded in the meter. In any household, however much one may try to hide and use the electricity, yet the meter keeps running and recordingwithout fail. Similarly the meter for recording all the sins and virtues is theinner conscience (antahakarna).Question: By doing virtuous actions, can our sins be erased ?Sinful and virtuous actions are both coming from different departments. Their accumulation is happening in separate departments. Therefore in essence, one cannot erase the other. However if man with the aim of reducing his sins takesa firm resolve, then with that resolution, sins can be destroyed; Just like by giving a money for bail, a man can be released from prison.Meera Das, Ram Ram ================================================Dear Sadhak insightRead chapter sixteen in detail and you will find what are good virtues and what are bad virtues.Similaarly try to distinguish between what is good and what is bad,When you act upon bad elements then it is Papa and what you do good it falls within Punya.Ultimately every thing is judged by the law of your karmas ( actions ) and credit is given according to this law.This is my short understandings .Please judge and let me know your views Truly yoursS S Bhatt--------The Sukata ends in question mark ...........Is it? or Is it not? who knows? Only He knows and perhaps He may not even know.that's beautiful B Vempaty Jee.............. thank you for the great ' Nasadeeya Sukta' !WHO KNOWSSays the wave, Beloved Ocean, Dear Lord... I choose.. I choose to move towards theeLaments the wave, My beloved... Difficult.... Difficult is the Path,The Path towards theeStrength, my Lord, grant me strength.... Forsake me notAsserts the wave,....O Light, O Lord, my Love, I surrenderI rejoice in my surrender.... In silence the wave sings of mergence blissful,In You I merge, I merge into YouThus do I, Commit Harakiri I commit the ultimate suicideThe ultimate suicide of the Vedas ....What Joy.... The voice of the wave, I..IAlways I....I, I, IBUTDid it choose? Did it move? Did it pray? Did it surrender? Did it merge? Did it die?Is it no more? Is it no more? Will it be nevermore?Who knows, who knows, who knows! When the wave is no more,Who knows, who knows, who knows! Was it ever there? Was it there indeed? Did it toil and boil? When the wave is no more,Who knows, who knows, who knows!And is there an Ocean?The Lord of all, The God of worship,Who knows, who knows, who knows!AND YET,Verily, He knows, He knows, He knows!Only HE knows !THIS, narinder now knowsHe knows, He knows, He knows!And so will you know it one day, some day,Only.... say Yes TODAY.AUM narinderHari 0mRuchiraji ! Welcome ! Good Q. Paap or Punya basically are governed by "bhavas" (inner expressions). If you did not know an action was paap, but later on you knew, then also sin is a sin. Because the other party got hurt anyway. Though in such a case intensity and "other impacts" get reduced comparatively. Every deed causes some "imprints" on your "antahkarana". These imprints in an accumulated form may even induce you to repeat the same, cause a habit formation and may snatch away your inner peace. This may get reduced when you did something unknowingly/by mistake/unintentionally. But, of course, befitting adverse circumstances will always come in future as a result. (You will get hurt and might find out , the other party to be unknowing of hurt to you- as you were in the past). Hence carefulness is always better. Ways to correct is- a regret inside, and a resolution not to repeat it. Turning towards Paramatma also is a remedy and so is resorting to Equanimity.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-------- Dear Sadaks,Sin is that which one' s mind says it is incorrect - in action, thought, speech. Dharma Vyajer (Refered as Gyani) in Maha Bharat is a slaughterer. Sri Krishna says it that man` s caste rights. But the same is forbidden to Sadaks, Sanyasins, Bhramins Etc.General Sin is hurting someone by words, sight- looking staringly (As per script Ganeswari), by insults, by passing knowingly or unknowly comments on someone, by beating or physically hurting.EtcVirtue is to see God in every living thing, softly speaking to others, helping anyone even persons who dislike you, forgiving and forgeting others insults and abuses, living Dhamic life, being divine in thoughts EtcThe amount of sins reduces if some one abuses you. The amount Virtue increases when you forget their abuses. Ref: Upanashids.Only if Sins and Virtue is completely not in one` s account, he liberates.Example: Saint Sarabanger was Tapodhana (He had Tapas and Yagna Pala) to great extent in his account. His time to depart from world came. Indra came with Palanquin to take him and Sri Bramaji also came with another Chariot to take him. Sarabagaer said wait, "Wait Indra and Brama, Sri Rama is approaching my Ashram. I will pay my respects and then come". Sri Rama came and Sarabagar did Paadha Pooja (Prayer by washing feet) to Sri Rama saying, " Samasta Puniya, Tapas/Yagniya or Papa are surrendered to yout feet Oh my Bagavan". Next minute Sarabanger disappeared to the surprise of Indra and Bramaji, who then knew Sarabanger attained Moksha (Vaikunt). Refer: Srimat Ramayan Sarabanga MokshaIf one remains stedfast atleast during death time on Bagavan, HE take care of HIS devotee in balancing sins and Virtue and eventually removing them. Example: Ajameel, Pingala prostitute lady, Karn/ Karna Duryodhan friend, Gajendra the Elephant EtcJai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan--Narendrji's comments at the end of the article remind me of the great 'Naasadiya Sukta' of Rigveda which eloborates the concept of Being and non-Being; Existence and non-existence etc. as the beginning of creation when all the states of energy are in equilibrium and there is nothing and everything. Then He willed to make a slight movement (spandana) that is the beginning of creation. The Sukata ends in question mark Is it? or Is it not? who knows? Only He knows and perhaps He may not even know. To us the mortals it appears that two things are needed to create anything "Knowledge" and "Spandana" or action. Taking actions to use our knowledge to create something beautiful that everybody can enjoy the bliss of it is the ultimate goal. Be one with 'Sat ChiT Ananda'. This is a powerful Sukta often quoted by great physicists looking for "What was there before the Big-Bang?". This makes us feel how deeply the Seers of the Sanatana Dharma challenged their mind to go to reach the God. All our efforts in understanding the Gita verses lead us there. May God bless us all with that wisdom knowing which everything else will be known (realized). I enjoy the discussions of this group. B.Vempaty -------------------------PRIOR POSTINGHari OmThe human life is such that there is paap or punya hidden IN EACH AND EVERY OF THE ACTIONS which you perform, each and every Karma which you make, in each and every role which you play as a human. Gita says – you can not remain without performing karma even for a fraction of a second during your entire life. Gita further says- all karmas have some defects. Hence unless you take some concrete steps , whatever you do is capable of becoming a PAAP (sin) - - Logically ! What are those concrete steps ? Gita says – Convert the Karmas into AKARMAS ! How to do that ? EQUANIMITY !! When you are equanimous, you do not incur a sin . As simple as that !Swamiji would often say : Punya is your turning towards the God ! Paap is your remaining engrossed in the world !! You cant easily relinquish the world, hence EQUANIMITY in your actions, in your karmas, in your perception, in your attitude, in your Bhavas- make you SINLESS !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B----- Any moral and ethical action that helps a fellow human ( animal or any life)and brings us to god consciousness is punya. Any immoral and unethical act that brings pain to others and moves us away from god consciousness is papam( sin). Truth and ahimsa which represent god ,get us closer to the lord.Prasad iragavarpu, m.d-----Namaskar, I have read definitions of Paap and Punya. Thanks I just want to know, sometimes we do mistakes and bad things unknowingly. Get angry with someone without knowing its impact. Will that also known as Paap. Are there any ways to correct these? Regards, RuchiraPRIOR POSTINGAny thought(Vichar) or speech (Vani), action (Kriya) -if it makes you feel bad, unhappy, uncomfortable, fearful,worrying within is PAAP, if it makes you feel great, happy, peaceful is PunyaOur bodies are all the time giving the feedback to us at the feeling level.....just be aware and benefit.... get transformed....OrIf you think, speak, act without being conscious, it is PAAPWith awareness and understanding of truth, everything you think,speak, act becomes PUNYAThe above are very simple but deeply impacting definitions of PAAP or PUNIYA.........With contemplation, one can benefit instantly.......Sushil Jain----------------------Hari OmI agree with Sadhanaji and Naga Narayana. The moment I read these definitions, I felt like asking. Indeed Bhandariji is another gem of this elite group. This group by the grace of God and blessings of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is getting more and more divine with each passing day. Talent with this group is unique and perhaps only of its kind in the entire planet. Welcome again, O narinderji !! In Shashikalaji's words : Oye Tussi great ho Jee !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B----------------------Punya is our true nature. When we do good deeds(Punya) we are going with our nature and when we do bad(Paap) things, we are going against our nature. We come to know the difference between right and wrong at a very early age. Everytime we do something good we feel happy while a bad deed creates pangs from our conscience. Needless to say we are what we are today because of our past karmas and our present karmas will decide what we will become. That is the reward or punishment for our deeds.Hari Shanker Deo-------------------------Shree HariRam RamUnder the Q & A section, you may want to read Questions that were posed to Swamiji and his responses related - SINS AND VIRTUES for additional insights.http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net/Question_Answer.htmlFrom Gita Talk ModeratorsRam Ram ================================PRIOR POSTINGNarinderji,Pranaams after Pranaams ... to ... The Center of All ... and to You for theeloquent teachings for us to appreciate our impotence as such wherein the radiiof our locii start shrnking to savour the nectar thereupon.Pranaams from an epicenter to another which helps merge the two in The One. MySahasra Deergha Danda Namaskaras to You.Naga Narayana-----------------------Dear Sadhak,I never heard /read a better definition of paap and punya then that given by Sadhak Narinderji. Any act, karma, or thought which moves our little ego self to the real Self is punya and vise-e-versa.with Love, a SadhikaSadhna KarigarHari Om.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Indeed - Where you have been searching Him so far, Sadhak ?Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ah, Vyas jee, Vyas jee, Vyas jee................every word that narinder has shared in this forum speaks only of the search of many lifetimes ...................and the Grace that has silenced that search, in the deep understanding of the One-ness of the word and its source, Silence .........when Time( mind) enters into the Kingdom of Timelessness( No-mind) ........ the thirst is forever quenched ............... life and living carries on ..................... what else can poor narinder say, and how ?MIND TO NO-MINDThe distance from Mind to No-mindIs only a thought sacrificedIt does not exist.A word unspokenA touch unrealA deed dreamt.The roar of silenceStillness spanning Time and SpaceDeeper and deeper into BeingI descendEffortlesslySans careSans fearDeeper and deeper into VoidWhere the eye or the ear exist notNor the dream nor the dreamerNor the sweet ignorance of deep sleepVoidThe fullness of experienceOnly the fullness of experienceExistence and non-existence ever mergingInto Silence that ISJust IS.And, from that No-mind, blossoms life and living ..................... thoughts, words and deeds ........THANK YOU BELOVED Thank you Beloved For the Beautiful Thoughts!Thoughts that lead to theDeep Silence of BeingSilence of Being that You Yourself are !!Silence , the Imperishable Seed ! That erupts, Grows, Blossoms and flowers!Silence, The Fruit of which ..Is Wonderous Words and ThoughtsThat lead one againUnto the Silence of Being .Ah, thank you Krishna ..........Thank you BelovedFor your Gift divine.AUMnarinder -----------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Geeta Sadhaks, Namaskar,Shri Vyasji desires a learned clarification from Shri Bhandariji, regarding thedefinitions of Paap (Bad Deeds) and Punya (Holy Deeds or Good Deeds). Bhandarijiwill give his learned opinion in due course of time, but in the meanwhile, somethoughts peeped in my brain on this subject and I want to humbly share thosewith Geeta Sadhakas...Paap and Punya are the concepts, introduced by the Great Thinkers of the Past(GTPs) to establish an ethical order in the society. Any act or deed against theethical rules is a bad deed (sin). In our scriptures, even the King ofGods...Indradev..has gone against the ethical rules. He assumed the the physicalform (Shareer) of Gautam rishi and mated with Gautami in a deliberate absence ofher husband. Actually Indra had tricked Gautam rishi to go to the river for abath at odd hours…This is a great great and the most disgraceful sin.Killing an innocent and weak lifeform is a sin, but a cat never eats a deadrat..She kills a live rat for her food...it is for her naturalsurvival...because she kills a rat only when she is hungry and needs food. Sokilling an innocent rat is not a paap for the cat.Helping a sick and needy person in any way is Punya, but giving a big donationfor gaining fame is not an act of Punya.By the way, there is nobody...no Chitragupta..to keep a record of your Deeds ofPaap and Punya and accordingly send your soul to heaven or hell. If you do badacts, you will be ill-treated by the society and punished by law...that is yourhell...and if you do good acts...the society will respect you...that is yourheaven......Gee Waman------------------------However I ought to refer the following from the message of Bhandariji :Our conduct can either lead us towards our own Centre ( which is Blissinfinite), or away from it .That conduct , which leads us towards the Centre, istermed Punya, and that , which leads us away from our own Centre true, is called'sin' or papa .I seek his learned clarification just to know as to from where he picked upaforesaid definitions of "paap" (sin) and "punya" (virtue) ? Or it is selfunderstood? Just for information and if he can elaborate on the concept further.Hari Om Vyas jee,deep joy of being flowers in narinder's being, when he reads the words in yourvarious messages .............to your words above, dear divine vyas jee, narinder can only say ............what you already know ..the self is One ..................In the One, nought exists but the One ................all is the Play of theSelf ...........The One-ness , when in play, is the Universe , existence as it is ............prakriti ..... gunas ............when not in play, The One is in a state of non-existence ................. itis the Great Void that is purnam , ful-ness, infinite being , being andnon-being ( yes and no both ) ...............there is neither a Centre, nor any circumference, nor beings , nor non-beings ................from the above, flows an apperception ( not a perception ... please note ), thatthe Centre of the Self-created self, all selfs, all beings, is ONE.each being is One with that Centre in deep sleep ...............The yogi becomes One with that Centre in nirvikalpa samadhi .................and,suddenly the hitherto entity of the ego,which was till then a seeker, becomesOne with the Sought.... and is no more ...he enters a timeless state ... the un-knowable state of Self, ... anarvachniya(that, which words cannot convey).....BUTthe above is only a recollection (knowledge intuitively experienced?) when theego (mind), now a no-mind, becomes an ego again ... this is, perhaps, the stateof being and non-being simultaneously...to the ego, whom the experience has come as GRACE, knowing and not-knowingbecomes One, doing and not-doing becomes not-two.....actually , he becomes mute.... he cannot speak, or , say....now, he is ever silent ..... and it is the Great Silence that speaks throughhim ... the SELF now speaks to the self ...........much flows from this being ... because he is (in reality)no more ...all is the Self , weaving in the self, the web of joy and love and play, for thesake of the self .....concepts are no more concepts ....as long as concepts remain concepts, trueknowledge of Silence remains silent ....and dear divine Vyas jee, we ... all of us are moving towards that Centre....... in fact we are that Centre alone ....the centre that is NOT the centre....and each one of us one day, some day, comes to realise all that needs to berealised .....it is concepts and conditioning of the mind that eclipse the Reality,... and ,then, begins the Sadhna ........and it is our thoughts, words and deeds, that lead to the de-eclipsing ................ are the sadhna ...............when they lead to the gradual de-eclipsing , they are punya....when they furtherlead us into eclipsing ... they are papathe measure of true success of our lived life ... is .... how much the distancebetween the self and the Great SELF , has shortened in the present life... wecarry our being with us into the next life ( ....knowledge ?)what more can narinder say ....?he knows but little.... only what the Self makes available to him in the Now ,the Moment Now ...ah, narinder finds himself impotent again ....... how to say anything aboutThat, which is not a word !'love and joy to all the divine sadhaks' ..... is the prayer that rises innarinder's heart ....AUMNarinder Bhandari--------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Un: -

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RELATED QUESTION(1) There is general public belief that the pap (sins) and the punya (virtues) done by a

human being are accumulated / tallied in the ChitraGupta (an assistant

for Lord Yama of Naraka - Hell) to declare a final score. It is also

believed that the final score against the person will decide whether a

person goes to hell or heaven. There are many stories in the puranas

about the pap (sins) and the punya (virtues). Few references are there in

Vedas/upanishads and Gita also.

(2) Against this popular belief, we see that man is vehemently and

openly is making pap and we do not see any recourse to this. Even the

corrective systems are so corrupted, the belief does not seem to be

true.

I would request to enlighten me what Gita says about (1) and how does

Gita justify (2) above.

Regards

Venu Komanduri

--

QUESTION:I seek Narinder's learned clarification just to know as to from where he pickedup aforesaid definitions of "paap" (sin) and "punya" (virtue) ? Or it is selfunderstood? Just for information and if Narinder Bhandari and other Sadhak canelaborate on the concept further.N.B. Vyas----------------------

NEW POSTING

Now-a-days people are reaping the result of papa (sins) during their present life time only.One person known to me gave fake witness in a court and he lost his speech for the rest of his life. Chitra Gupta may become workless during the coming years. Most of us are experiencing the life in a hell in our later part of our lives with the behaviour of our bahus (daughter-in-laws) and sons. Badri Narayana Miriyala

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Dear Seekers of Truth, Namaste!This is to Venuji's related two questions!First, regarding Q2, I would like to say, that Gita does not justify wrong actions against the background of Karma as sins or virtues! Karma theory is a warning against any such wrong doings with dire consequences! Gita, on the contrary, emphasizes that "Karma cannot touch you upon realization that you always are free as your True nature is SELF, Atman, The Existence! Just realize it and live the life according to that". In such scenario, Karma are not even relevant in living! They are witnessed as unfolding of nature as it does!Regarding Q1, it is just a popular belief of ChitraGupta tallying one's merits and demerits, all to teach people to do virtuous actions NOW! The real issue addressed in Gita is how one can be free from Karmas by performing self-less actions(non-doership) using body-mind as tool, and/or seeking Self-Knowledge. However, in both such pursuits Devotion should be upper most!Actually we can say that karmas leading to sins or virtues are done in ignorance because such acts assume a doer of actions that one thinks one is. The real doer is nature-prakriti, one's body-mind, which cannot remain without actions!Actions are inevitable but doership is optional, being just a belief not investigated! When one sees clearly that one, not only, is non-doer in spite of all actions perfromed by the body-mind, but that one cannot be the doer at all! Deeds are performed based on Conditioning-Programming which happens to body-mind from mass karmas of all mankind and nature, based on place and time(Desh-Kaal) one is born into. "Individual karmas are ignorance because individual himself/herself is ignorance! Such clarity brings in abidance in and as Atman, Self, One Existence that is Consciousness!Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt

 

dear sadaks,many of us see people committing sins knowing full well even after advising the act is sin. similarly few do homas, poojas, dharma, service, scacrifice their lives for others. But many living within family knowing well that abusing, shouting, disturbing, cheating brother/sister, harming, taking away belongings, gossiping to create bad name, all of these are daily part of life within the family. both these type of people are performing their karma pala from which they are not exempted. So a gunatheet (Person who got enlightened) understands this very well and remains undisturbed, and only focused on paramathuma. sins and puniyas both have to be nullified. then the body equipment glorifies as that of buddha, sri krishna, sri rama, and saints such as adi sankara, tukaram, puranderdoss etc. until then soul keeps on moving from one body to another to fulfill its desires and execute its karmas. like sikandhi came to kill beeshma. so many wonderful examples are there. Bagavan in Geetha has said, " Aneka Jalma Samshidhaya---"B.Sathyanarayan

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Dear Komaandoori Venu and fellow learners,I have posted message in the past about Paapa and sin. I will explain again. InDharma which is ours there is no concept of SIN. As one life form depends onanother as per Rita - the basic principle of creation, existence of one beinginevitably causes inconvenience to another. For example One eatsrice/vegetable/fish to survive. Each of this has life which is consumed. Suchinconvenience is as per Dharma. It is not rated as Paapa.In fact Yadnyaarthaatkarma is not Paapa. We will explain Yadnya in a separate posting. But be sure itis not sacrificing animals and such ritual. Paapa is causing needlessinconvenience to fellow beings. It is purely Dharma concept and hence can not befound in Religions. English language has no term for Paapa.Sin, is purely religious, sin depends on the religious belief you are addictedto. If you are a muslim or a Jew, then per my understanding eating the meat without Kosher or halaalis sin; and if you are a christian it is not. In Judaism, Islam or Christianity per my understanding ,teasing a bull or any such animal and at the end killing it is not a sin but asport. In Dharma Saastra, it is paapa, as the inconvenience caused to the bullor another animal is needless. Dharma is logical Darsana. Religions emphasize on believing per my understanding, ; whereas Dharma wants you to KNOW. Note the difference.Punya is an act of apparent good, done by us inorder to gain a place in thetemporary and inferior comforts of svarga and such The one who is interested inthe Ultimate Repose (Parama Dhaama) does not care about Punya. He just does hiswork as it is his duty and leaves the calculations of Punya and Paapa to theLord.Finally Chitra Gupta and Yama and his Naraka are all allegories. Yama (ja) meanstwin. Chitra Gupta is the chitta, the recalling mode of Mana. They do not existseparately. they exist with in us and torture us for our deeds. A Paapi suffersby his concience; and that is the combination of Yama, Chitra Gupta and Naraka.Do not try to find equivalent words for words of Dharma in English and suchSemitic religious languages.krishna samudrala

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Sins (Paap) and Virtues (Punya), Please Clairfy, Please Elaborate

 

 

 

Buddhi suffers when the it cannot pursue the system according to its mode of appreciation. The system suffers and complains when the Buddhi cannot handle its demands efficiently and effectively. Happiness raises from the fruitful conjugation of the the two into mutual satisfaction. The disparity between the Buddhi and the system is called Buddhibheda - Buddhi's failure to educate and pursue the system to conform to its understanding. It results from the VarNasankara - Buddhi's failure to appreciate the system as is. Therefore, the burden of seeking is pretty much on one's Buddhi and therefore, all the scriptures attempt educating the Buddhi to transcend its limitations of Buddhibheda and the resulting VarNasankara.

 

 

 

As I understand from the Bhagavadgita, VarNasankara is THE SOLE reason for all the miseries and hence THE ONLY sin (Paapa) one could ever incur. PuNya is a concept to emphasise a state of no sins. In other words, PuNya starts increasing its potency as the Paapa looses its potency in one's existence. In other words, the sins start dropping away as one's wisdom starts spreading across the faculties and perculate into one's cellular existence so that the system is in sink with the wisdom.

 

 

 

The wisdom collects opaqueness in its vision when the system rebells its ideas, the opaqueness being its ignorance regarding the system it is supposed to guide. The same opaqueness triggers rebellion in the system as well since the system cannot see any benefit in the visions of the wisdom. Transparency starts trickling into the wisdom as it starts appreciating the system from closer quarters. The same transparency encourages the system to appreciate the vision of the wisdom with better acceptance. Just like the wisdom's opaqueness could snowball into an obliviously chaotic existence of ignorance (of the wisdom) and inertia (of the system), its transparency can snowball to the eradication of the ignorance and inertia with an equal pace and effect.

 

 

 

When the wisdom does not resonate with the systematic characteristics, its vision remains a preaching to the system. If the wisdom fails to appreciate the systematic trauma and rejects the systematic needs, the system will fail to appreciate the benefits from the visions of the wisdom and rejects the suggestions from the wisdom. A preaching wisdom ignores the systematic difficulties - either it cannot see through the same or it is weary of association with the same - and hurries to work around the hurdles leaving them intact (even, nurturing them further) in the system. A seeking wisdom would associate itself with the system closely to appreciate its limitations so that it can work with the system to remove the hurdles effectively ... eventually.

 

 

 

Therefore, a preaching (opaque) wisdom is the sin (Paapa) while a seeking (transparent) wisdom is the virtue (PuNya).

 

 

 

Respects.

 

 

 

Naga Narayana

 

Jai Sri Krishna

Any action to fulfil our desires is sin (paap), but if it is for the benefit of others then virtue (punya).

Ram Ram

Ashok Goenka

-------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

-Shree Hari-

Dear Venu,

Having grown up in a society that in general believe, put

simplistically, that the good go to heaven, and the bad go to hell.

I was always confronted in my thoughts of this strange dichotomy, "one

more sin than Fred off to hell , while Fred goes to heaven".

Bible quotes: "Tell us master . Who sinned that, this man be born

blind, he or his parents?"

".....He (Jesus) replied.... but Elias has come but you knew him

not.......then they (the disciples) knew he spoke of John the Baptist"

N.B Elias died 300 years before the life of John the Baptist. I will let

those lines speak for themselves!

A Sadhak, has mentioned Bhagavad-Gita Ch. 16.

Ch 16 Verses 18-19:

Given over to egotism, brute force, arrogance, lust and anger etc. and

calumniating others, they hate ME (the inner controller of all)

dwelling in there own bodies as well as those in others.

These haters, sinful, cruel and vilest among men, I cast again and again

into demoniacal wombs in this world.

If you wish to elevate your thoughts on this subject further, if you

have access to "Essence of Yogavaasishtha ", some great reading there,

but the simple line from, 'The Story of Bhusunda' Ch.23 has a simple

profound depth: 'When the affair of the world ceases at the end of the

world-cycle, I just remain in space devoid of all imagination'.

Om... Shanti...

Mike (K).---------------------Shree Hari Ram Ram When asked a similar question, Swamiji answered the following : From Prashnouttermanimala - Question: Where is the accumulated storehouse of sins and virtues that are resulting from all our actions ?It is stored in the inner conscience "antahkarna", just like - electricity that is being used is recorded in the meter. In any household, however much one may try to hide and use the electricity, yet the meter keeps running and recordingwithout fail. Similarly the meter for recording all the sins and virtues is theinner conscience (antahakarna).Question: By doing virtuous actions, can our sins be erased ?Sinful and virtuous actions are both coming from different departments. Their accumulation is happening in separate departments. Therefore in essence, one cannot erase the other. However if man with the aim of reducing his sins takesa firm resolve, then with that resolution, sins can be destroyed; Just like by giving a money for bail, a man can be released from prison.Meera Das, Ram Ram ================================================

 

Dear Sadhak insight

Read chapter sixteen in detail and you will find what are good virtues and what are bad virtues.Similaarly try to distinguish between what is good and what is bad,When you act upon bad elements then it is Papa and what you do good it falls within Punya.Ultimately every thing is judged by the law of your karmas ( actions ) and credit is given according to this law.This is my short understandings .Please judge and let me know your views

 

Truly yoursS S Bhatt

--------

The Sukata ends in question mark ...........Is it? or Is it not? who knows? Only He knows and perhaps He may not even know.

that's beautiful B Vempaty Jee.............. thank you for the great ' Nasadeeya Sukta' !

WHO KNOWS

Says the wave, Beloved Ocean, Dear Lord... I choose.. I choose to move towards thee

Laments the wave, My beloved... Difficult.... Difficult is the Path,

The Path towards thee

Strength, my Lord, grant me strength.... Forsake me not

Asserts the wave,....O Light, O Lord, my Love, I surrender

I rejoice in my surrender.... In silence the wave sings of mergence blissful,

In You I merge, I merge into You

Thus do I, Commit Harakiri I commit the ultimate suicide

The ultimate suicide of the Vedas ....What Joy.... The voice of the wave, I..I

Always I....I, I, I

BUT

Did it choose? Did it move? Did it pray? Did it surrender? Did it merge? Did it die?

Is it no more? Is it no more? Will it be nevermore?

Who knows, who knows, who knows! When the wave is no more,

Who knows, who knows, who knows! Was it ever there?

Was it there indeed? Did it toil and boil? When the wave is no more,

Who knows, who knows, who knows!

And is there an Ocean?

The Lord of all, The God of worship,

Who knows, who knows, who knows!

AND YET,

Verily,

He knows, He knows, He knows!

Only HE knows !

THIS, narinder now knows

He knows, He knows, He knows!

And so will you know it one day, some day,

Only.... say Yes TODAY.

AUM

narinder

 

Hari 0mRuchiraji ! Welcome ! Good Q. Paap or Punya basically are governed by "bhavas" (inner expressions). If you did not know an action was paap, but later on you knew, then also sin is a sin. Because the other party got hurt anyway. Though in such a case intensity and "other impacts" get reduced comparatively. Every deed causes some "imprints" on your "antahkarana". These imprints in an accumulated form may even induce you to repeat the same, cause a habit formation and may snatch away your inner peace. This may get reduced when you did something unknowingly/by mistake/unintentionally. But, of course, befitting adverse circumstances will always come in future as a result. (You will get hurt and might find out , the other party to be unknowing of hurt to you- as you were in the past). Hence carefulness is always better. Ways to correct is- a regret inside, and a resolution not to repeat it. Turning towards Paramatma also is a remedy and so is resorting to Equanimity.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

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Dear Sadaks,

Sin is that which one' s mind says it is incorrect - in action, thought, speech. Dharma Vyajer (Refered as Gyani) in Maha Bharat is a slaughterer. Sri Krishna says it that man` s caste rights. But the same is forbidden to Sadaks, Sanyasins, Bhramins Etc.

General Sin is hurting someone by words, sight- looking staringly (As per script Ganeswari), by insults, by passing knowingly or unknowly comments on someone, by beating or physically hurting.Etc

Virtue is to see God in every living thing, softly speaking to others, helping anyone even persons who dislike you, forgiving and forgeting others insults and abuses, living Dhamic life, being divine in thoughts Etc

The amount of sins reduces if some one abuses you. The amount Virtue increases when you forget their abuses. Ref: Upanashids.

Only if Sins and Virtue is completely not in one` s account, he liberates.

Example: Saint Sarabanger was Tapodhana (He had Tapas and Yagna Pala) to great extent in his account. His time to depart from world came. Indra came with Palanquin to take him and Sri Bramaji also came with another Chariot to take him. Sarabagaer said wait, "Wait Indra and Brama, Sri Rama is approaching my Ashram. I will pay my respects and then come". Sri Rama came and Sarabagar did Paadha Pooja (Prayer by washing feet) to Sri Rama saying, " Samasta Puniya, Tapas/Yagniya or Papa are surrendered to yout feet Oh my Bagavan". Next minute Sarabanger disappeared to the surprise of Indra and Bramaji, who then knew Sarabanger attained Moksha (Vaikunt). Refer: Srimat Ramayan Sarabanga Moksha

If one remains stedfast atleast during death time on Bagavan, HE take care of HIS devotee in balancing sins and Virtue and eventually removing them. Example: Ajameel, Pingala prostitute lady, Karn/ Karna Duryodhan friend, Gajendra the Elephant Etc

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

--

Narendrji's comments at the end of the article remind me of the great 'Naasadiya Sukta' of Rigveda which eloborates the concept of Being and non-Being; Existence and non-existence etc. as the beginning of creation when all the states of energy are in equilibrium and there is nothing and everything. Then He willed to make a slight movement (spandana) that is the beginning of creation. The Sukata ends in question mark Is it? or Is it not? who knows? Only He knows and perhaps He may not even know. To us the mortals it appears that two things are needed to create anything "Knowledge" and "Spandana" or action. Taking actions to use our knowledge to create something beautiful that everybody can enjoy the bliss of it is the ultimate goal. Be one with 'Sat ChiT Ananda'. This is a powerful Sukta often quoted by great physicists looking for "What was there before the Big-Bang?". This makes us feel how deeply the Seers of the Sanatana Dharma challenged their mind to go to reach the God. All our efforts in understanding the Gita verses lead us there. May God bless us all with that wisdom knowing which everything else will be known (realized). I enjoy the discussions of this group.

B.Vempaty

 

 

-------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

The human life is such that there is paap or punya hidden IN EACH AND EVERY OF THE ACTIONS which you perform, each and every Karma which you make, in each and every role which you play as a human. Gita says – you can not remain without performing karma even for a fraction of a second during your entire life. Gita further says- all karmas have some defects. Hence unless you take some concrete steps , whatever you do is capable of becoming a PAAP (sin) - - Logically ! What are those concrete steps ? Gita says – Convert the Karmas into AKARMAS ! How to do that ? EQUANIMITY !! When you are equanimous, you do not incur a sin . As simple as that !

Swamiji would often say : Punya is your turning towards the God ! Paap is your remaining engrossed in the world !! You cant easily relinquish the world, hence EQUANIMITY in your actions, in your karmas, in your perception, in your attitude, in your Bhavas- make you SINLESS !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----

Any moral and ethical action that helps a fellow human ( animal or any life)and brings us to god consciousness is punya. Any immoral and unethical act that brings pain to others and moves us away from god consciousness is papam( sin). Truth and ahimsa which represent god ,get us closer to the lord.

Prasad iragavarpu, m.d

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Namaskar, I have read definitions of Paap and Punya. Thanks I just want to know, sometimes we do mistakes and bad things unknowingly. Get angry with someone without knowing its impact. Will that also known as Paap. Are there any ways to correct these? Regards, RuchiraPRIOR POSTING

Any thought(Vichar) or speech (Vani), action (Kriya) -

if it makes you feel bad, unhappy, uncomfortable, fearful,worrying within is PAAP, if it makes you feel great, happy, peaceful is Punya

Our bodies are all the time giving the feedback to us at the feeling level.....just be aware and benefit.... get transformed....

Or

If you think, speak, act without being conscious, it is PAAPWith awareness and understanding of truth, everything you think,speak, act becomes PUNYA

The above are very simple but deeply impacting definitions of PAAP or PUNIYA.........With contemplation, one can benefit instantly.......

Sushil Jain

----------------------Hari Om

I agree with Sadhanaji and Naga Narayana. The moment I read these definitions, I felt like asking. Indeed Bhandariji is another gem of this elite group. This group by the grace of God and blessings of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is getting more and more divine with each passing day. Talent with this group is unique and perhaps only of its kind in the entire planet. Welcome again, O narinderji !! In Shashikalaji's words : Oye Tussi great ho Jee !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------

Punya is our true nature. When we do good deeds(Punya) we are going with our nature and when we do bad(Paap) things, we are going against our nature. We come to know the difference between right and wrong at a very early age. Everytime we do something good we feel happy while a bad deed creates pangs from our conscience. Needless to say we are what we are today because of our past karmas and our present karmas will decide what we will become. That is the reward or punishment for our deeds.

Hari Shanker Deo

-------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Under the Q & A section, you may want to read Questions that were posed to Swamiji and his responses related - SINS AND VIRTUES for additional insights.

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net/Question_Answer.html

From Gita Talk Moderators

Ram Ram

 

================================

PRIOR POSTING

Narinderji,

Pranaams after Pranaams ... to ... The Center of All ... and to You for theeloquent teachings for us to appreciate our impotence as such wherein the radiiof our locii start shrnking to savour the nectar thereupon.

Pranaams from an epicenter to another which helps merge the two in The One. MySahasra Deergha Danda Namaskaras to You.

Naga Narayana

-----------------------

Dear Sadhak,I never heard /read a better definition of paap and punya then that given by Sadhak Narinderji. Any act, karma, or thought which moves our little ego self to the real Self is punya and vise-e-versa.with Love, a Sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

Hari Om

......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Indeed - Where you have been searching Him so far, Sadhak ?

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B ah, Vyas jee, Vyas jee, Vyas jee................

every word that narinder has shared in this forum speaks only of the search of many lifetimes ...................and the Grace that has silenced that search, in the deep understanding of the One-ness of the word and its source, Silence .........

when Time( mind) enters into the Kingdom of Timelessness( No-mind) ........ the thirst is forever quenched ............... life and living carries on ..................... what else can poor narinder say, and how ?

MIND TO NO-MIND

The distance from Mind to No-mind

Is only a thought sacrificed

It does not exist.

A word unspoken

A touch unreal

A deed dreamt.

The roar of silence

Stillness spanning Time and Space

Deeper and deeper into Being

I descend

Effortlessly

Sans care

Sans fear

Deeper and deeper into Void

Where the eye or the ear exist notNor the dream nor the dreamer

Nor the sweet ignorance of deep sleep

Void

The fullness of experience

Only the fullness of experience

Existence and non-existence ever merging

Into Silence that IS

Just IS.

And, from that No-mind, blossoms life and living ..................... thoughts, words and deeds ........

THANK YOU BELOVED

Thank you Beloved

For the Beautiful Thoughts!

Thoughts that lead to the

Deep Silence of Being

Silence of Being that You Yourself are !!

Silence , the Imperishable Seed !

That erupts,

Grows,

Blossoms and flowers!

Silence,

The Fruit of which ..

Is

Wonderous Words and Thoughts

That lead one again

Unto the Silence of Being .

Ah, thank you Krishna ..........

Thank you Beloved

For your Gift divine.

AUM

narinder -----------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Geeta Sadhaks, Namaskar,

Shri Vyasji desires a learned clarification from Shri Bhandariji, regarding thedefinitions of Paap (Bad Deeds) and Punya (Holy Deeds or Good Deeds). Bhandarijiwill give his learned opinion in due course of time, but in the meanwhile, somethoughts peeped in my brain on this subject and I want to humbly share thosewith Geeta Sadhakas...

Paap and Punya are the concepts, introduced by the Great Thinkers of the Past(GTPs) to establish an ethical order in the society. Any act or deed against theethical rules is a bad deed (sin). In our scriptures, even the King ofGods...Indradev..has gone against the ethical rules. He assumed the the physicalform (Shareer) of Gautam rishi and mated with Gautami in a deliberate absence ofher husband. Actually Indra had tricked Gautam rishi to go to the river for abath at odd hours…This is a great great and the most disgraceful sin.

Killing an innocent and weak lifeform is a sin, but a cat never eats a deadrat..She kills a live rat for her food...it is for her naturalsurvival...because she kills a rat only when she is hungry and needs food. Sokilling an innocent rat is not a paap for the cat.

Helping a sick and needy person in any way is Punya, but giving a big donationfor gaining fame is not an act of Punya.

By the way, there is nobody...no Chitragupta..to keep a record of your Deeds ofPaap and Punya and accordingly send your soul to heaven or hell. If you do badacts, you will be ill-treated by the society and punished by law...that is yourhell...and if you do good acts...the society will respect you...that is yourheaven...

....Gee Waman------------------------

However I ought to refer the following from the message of Bhandariji :

Our conduct can either lead us towards our own Centre ( which is Blissinfinite), or away from it .That conduct , which leads us towards the Centre, istermed Punya, and that , which leads us away from our own Centre true, is called'sin' or papa .

I seek his learned clarification just to know as to from where he picked upaforesaid definitions of "paap" (sin) and "punya" (virtue) ? Or it is selfunderstood? Just for information and if he can elaborate on the concept further.

Hari Om Vyas jee,

deep joy of being flowers in narinder's being, when he reads the words in yourvarious messages .............

to your words above, dear divine vyas jee, narinder can only say ............what you already know ..

the self is One ..................

In the One, nought exists but the One ................all is the Play of theSelf ...........

The One-ness , when in play, is the Universe , existence as it is ............prakriti ..... gunas ............

when not in play, The One is in a state of non-existence ................. itis the Great Void that is purnam , ful-ness, infinite being , being andnon-being ( yes and no both ) ...............

there is neither a Centre, nor any circumference, nor beings , nor non-beings ................

from the above, flows an apperception ( not a perception ... please note ), thatthe Centre of the Self-created self, all selfs, all beings, is ONE.

each being is One with that Centre in deep sleep ...............

The yogi becomes One with that Centre in nirvikalpa samadhi .................

and,

suddenly the hitherto entity of the ego,which was till then a seeker, becomesOne with the Sought.... and is no more ...

he enters a timeless state ... the un-knowable state of Self, ... anarvachniya(that, which words cannot convey).....

BUT

the above is only a recollection (knowledge intuitively experienced?) when theego (mind), now a no-mind, becomes an ego again ... this is, perhaps, the stateof being and non-being simultaneously...to the ego, whom the experience has come as GRACE, knowing and not-knowingbecomes One, doing and not-doing becomes not-two.....

actually , he becomes mute.... he cannot speak, or , say....

now, he is ever silent ..... and it is the Great Silence that speaks throughhim ... the SELF now speaks to the self ...........

much flows from this being ... because he is (in reality)no more ...

all is the Self , weaving in the self, the web of joy and love and play, for thesake of the self .....

concepts are no more concepts ....as long as concepts remain concepts, trueknowledge of Silence remains silent ....

and dear divine Vyas jee, we ... all of us are moving towards that Centre....... in fact we are that Centre alone ....the centre that is NOT the centre....

and each one of us one day, some day, comes to realise all that needs to berealised .....

it is concepts and conditioning of the mind that eclipse the Reality,... and ,then, begins the Sadhna ........

and it is our thoughts, words and deeds, that lead to the de-eclipsing ................ are the sadhna ...............

when they lead to the gradual de-eclipsing , they are punya....when they furtherlead us into eclipsing ... they are papa

the measure of true success of our lived life ... is .... how much the distancebetween the self and the Great SELF , has shortened in the present life... wecarry our being with us into the next life ( ....knowledge ?)

what more can narinder say ....?

he knows but little.... only what the Self makes available to him in the Now ,the Moment Now ...ah, narinder finds himself impotent again ....... how to say anything aboutThat, which is not a word !

'love and joy to all the divine sadhaks' ..... is the prayer that rises innarinder's heart ....AUM

Narinder Bhandari--------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

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