Why is it so difficult to actualise the message of the Bhagvad Geeta ?

March 30, 2009

Dear Sadhaks

I am new to this forum in the capacity of an initiator of a topic However i

have d to this group for quite a while and I want to congratulate all

concerned in creating this platform to allow people like me to enrich my

spritual space

I have been a student of Vedanta for the past 10 years and fully accept and

surrender to our highest ancient Philosophy

My question is why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know and

have fully accepted that THIS IS IT

Please enlighten....

vineeta malpani

----------------------

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Ram Ram

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March 31, 2009

Dear SadhaksI am new to this forum in the capacity of an initiator of a topic However ihave d to this group for quite a while and I want to congratulate allconcerned in creating this platform to allow people like me to enrich myspritual space

I have been a student of Vedanta for the past 10 years and fully accept andsurrender to our highest ancient Philosophy

My question is why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know andhave fully accepted that THIS IS IT

Please enlighten....

vineeta malpani

----------------------

NEW POSTING

Shree Hari

|| Ram Ram ||

Dear Vineetaji, thanks for asking a very important question.

Swamiji Maharaj has explained in detail the answer to this question. in his discourses. The answer to this question is contained in Gitaji also.

Six noteworthy points (not necessarily independent) which act as a stopper to spiritual progress:

1. We have assumed strong relationship with the persons and the objects of the world, the sense of 'ME' and 'MINE'. Our deepest desire is to draw the pleasure from the world, this is totally misplaced thought since the world does not have the capacity to supply us sustained Sukha (pleasure) because Gitaji is calling this world as a Dukhalya (House of suffering, ref: Gita: 8-15).

2. Love of money, the assumption it is the sure ticket to attain ultimate sustaining happiness, people become so sure of it that they are ready to commit a crime to get the money.

3. We have divided our life into two separate compartments, (Adhyatam / Sadhna) part and the activities of the day to day life. It is a common observation that potential spiritual aspirants work hard to gain more and more bookish knowledge (information only) and listen to the many discourses without changing their way of life. This knowledge serves only one purpose - to boost the ego, the person claims, I know and many others do not know. In fact this knowledge proves to be a burden, person is ready to unloaded this information to whoever he can find to listen to.

4. The deep attachment to Bhoga (pleasure) and Sangrah (accumulation) does not allow us to have a single pointed-ness or focus for sustained effort for Sadhna (Ref. Gitaji 2/41-44).

5. The assumption that Maya is the culprit for our deep attachment, the relationships of the world do not leave us, actually it is just the reverse we do not want to leave the relationships.

6. Lack of urgency, the earnestness and sincerity (lagan) to pursue the spiritual path. Meera says "mere to Giridhar Gopal dusra na koi" Nothing else was important to her.

|| Ram Ram ||

Humble regards,Madan Kaura

-----------

Hari Om

Vineetaji ! You have asked a beautiful question. In fact we "know" but we do not"admit" ." Ham jaanate hain par ham maanate nahin". We know that whoever takes birth , dies. But when some one near and dear dies, we start crying. Why? Because inside, the importance of world is still there. We want to become happy, sure, but with worldly things. That then is not ANANDA. We want to gain knowledge, sure, but with books and of outer world. That then is not CHIT. We want to live forever, sure, but with this body. That then is not SAT. Desire for becoming SATCHIDANANDA is there in all of us, but erroneously we want to fulfil that desire with reference to the body/world/worldly things/worldly knowledge. Inside us, the importance of WORLD continues.

Our acceptance thus is not firm and well placed. We melt before the worldly enticements. We are not able to relinquish deep rooted desire for "SUKH BHOG and SANGRAH' ( Consumption and accumulation) arising out of body and world.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------

Ram Ram,

your question, "why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know and have fully accepted that THIS IS IT"

it is half true, because you just know THIS IS IT, you haven't accepted it. There are few ifs and buts which still remain.

We just collect datas in our brain. We don't implement them. Had you accepted THIS IS IT, there is nothing easier than this. Because you need not do any thing. Yes, if you don't accept THAT IS IT, then it's the toughest thing. I could not understand why people have problem accepting it. Though it is the only truth. Yes it is the only truth.

Ashok Goenka

---------------------------

Dear Vineeta,

many answers to this query have been given ................. shastras can be quoted on them............

and all are true ..........................

But the two simple answers which bring Joy to narinder's heart ,............. which make him aware of the paradox of action and destiny , and also lead the resolution of the paradox, narinder gives below.............

Ans 1.

narinder cannot at this moment quote the exact reference, but he remembers reading two shalokas in the scriptures .....................

ONE: Till the Time comes for you to meditate, you will not be able to do so

TWO ( next shaloka ) : BUT, if you think that the Time has not yet come, it will never come even in a thousand aeons !

Answer 2.

Nisargadatta Maharaj was once asked the question asto why of all the thousands of disciples of his Guru, only he moved into enlightenment .

His reply was , " This is one question that no enlightened person can truly answer. One can only say, ' perhaps my time had come '.....or, ' it was Grace ' ..."

ah, dear sadhaks, who think that they are the Doers ( and almost everyone is into Doing, whereas the Truth is that you were never the Doer, only God is . ), all that they can do is to strive and strive ............ the results are only in God's hands ! Bh. Gt. Ch, 2/47 is applicable to one's sadhna too !

All the scriptures guide the Sadhaks as to how to ' DO' ( with what attitude, with what understanding ) so that the Ignorance of their being the Doers dies ............. and, the realisation of the Self or God being the only Doer dawns . It is 'not doing ; that is so peaceful, so blissful. That is why Krishna says , " Just surrender to me "( GT Ch. 18/66)

But, surrender , too, is not a Doing..... it is an happening , it is Grace.. ...... ah !

Osho, the enlightened master, has said:,

" People ask, what to do to move into Not-doing. There is no way. Yet I shall tell you what to do..................

When you read the scriptures, or get the answers from the Knowers of Truth.............. sit down and see the facticity of the truth read or heard. Just close your eyes and look at your own Life ............. watch it ............. weight the various incidents of your Life in the facticity of the answer or the Truth .

In that watching, the Doing will, one day, get dropped by itself. The true understanding of the answer or the truth will 'happen' by itself ."

AUM

narinder bhandari

-----

My dandavat pranams to all in this forum.....

Your question, Vineeta, is a sincere and direct inquiry....what is the difficulty in executing the orders of the ancient sadhus, gurus, etc? I have personally found, in years gone by, that I had to analyze carefully who I took influence from. I say "influence" rather than guidance, because we can be influenced by persons whom we don't necessarily even go to for guidance! We become affected by comments, even when it is sometimes just a passerby, we might overhear a conversation, see something on TV, or, the worst of all, go to a counselor whom we think, possibly, (under illusion) because of the title, "professional" has some edge on giving us instruction. I have found that maturity is a matter of developing our own strength to know that we want to follow the standards of the scriptures, even if it is not popular, not seen as modern, "cool", or socially "what's happening". It is a commitment to ourselves, to the Lord, and not to the changing material world in general.

praying my words are not a cause of pain to anyone,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

----

Priy sadhika ji

It is difficult due to lack of practice. Like a right handed person faces difficulty to perform same work with left hand. Although both hands are equal & one have full knowledge & believe one can do it But even then with left hand one feels difficult to do the same thing what one is doing by right hand. It is practice.

Thanx

raja gurdasani

--------------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

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April 1, 2009

Dear SadhaksI am new to this forum in the capacity of an initiator of a topic However ihave d to this group for quite a while and I want to congratulate allconcerned in creating this platform to allow people like me to enrich myspritual space

I have been a student of Vedanta for the past 10 years and fully accept andsurrender to our highest ancient Philosophy

My question is why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know andhave fully accepted that THIS IS IT

Please enlighten....

vineeta malpani

----------------------

NEW POSTING

It is Grace and yet for Grace to be, one must have true longing for God and God alone

Sophia

-----

In the words of Pujya Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the root cause for not actualising the message of the Bhagavan is that we do things against once spiritual progress due to attachment to desire for enjoyment and pleasure. Attachment to desire for enjoyments is the greatest obstacle in Self / God Realization. When there is intense desire for enjoyment of pleasures, then giving it up appears to be very difficult, rather impossible. A spiritual aspirant is totally independent in giving up attachment to enjoyment of pleasures. He can give this attachment up through thought, inquiry and reflection. By thinking / inquirying, he can come to the understanding that he wants happiness that has no shortage or limitation, and that never ends."Yam labdhvaa chaaparam laabham manyate naadhikam tatah;yaasminnisthato na dukhen gurnaapi vichaalyatetam vidhyaadukhsam yog viyogam yogasanjitam. " (Gita 6:22-23)"Having gained which state, he does not reckon any other gain greater than that, and wherein established, he is not shaken even by the greatest affliction.this separation from the assumed union with pain, is called Yoga."Human beings are blessed with immense ability to think, reflect and discriminate between truth and untruth. If he chooses to not think, then it is his mistake and error. It is his lack of prudence and attention to what is important.It is a rule that through the enjoyment of pleasures, the object enjoyed is destroyed and at the same time it leads to the enjoyer's downfall and decline. Just like with passion and desire when one indulges in wealth and material goods then that money is destroyed (used up) and one falls down. When importance of wealth, desire,greed, attachment, inertness, slavery etc. comes in him, then it leads to his downfall. When one indulges in enjoyment of food and eating, not only is food consumed and destroyed, but one takes a fall. The increased desire for enjoying foods and increased attachment to food is a sure downfall.-- Paritala Gopi Krishna

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Wecome back, Paritala Gopi Krishnaji. After long time... it is good to hear from you.

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

----------------------------

Dear Sadak,

Because one is stuck by a life pattern by his previous Karma account. A cart puller in most cases live and die just like any ordinary man. A high politician lives and dies evolved in that pattern of life. So each one is placed in a particular form Human, Animal, Bird etc to undergo Karma Bandh, says Bagavan to Yudhava in Yudhava Geetha. We see people has NO chance or chance given due to place of birth or under bad circumstances to say Om Namo Narayana/ Sri Rama/Namashivaya. To say it says that one needs previous Virtue (Puniya Pala) says Sri Vishnu Puran. To get that Virtue one gets it accidentally going to temple or meeting a Guru,or a day in Sat Sangh. From there the Virtue grows multi fold.

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Sathyanarayanji, you say "people have NO chance or chance given ... .to say the name of God", but Swamiji says human life is only a "saadhan yoni" and all human beings are entitled and eligible for liberation, God Realization, salvation, moksha etc.

Can you share some insights on why possibly differing views ?

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-------------

Attachment to worldly things prevents us from following the true path even when we know it. Through sadhna, satsang, sewa and meditation it is possible to get rid of attachment.Hari Shanker Deo

-----------------------

Bhagvada Geeta Ch 3/ sh 33.

" Even a wise man acts in accordance with his own nature; beings will follow their own nature; what can restraint do ?"

me thinks, the answer to Vineetas query is contained in the shloka above .

At any point of time, we are what we are. We cannot have been otherwise. It is something to do with the paradox of Destiny and Effort. The desiring, wishing and willing, the effort, the Doing and the operation of the immutable Law of karma.... all come into play ................ to compel us to be what we are and act only according to our own nature ( swabhava) at any particular point of time.

Actually, what vineeta would , perhaps, like to understand how to go beyond one's limitations of being at a certain time. She might find her answer in a related post by narinder on 01 Feb 09

Re: How can I Remember God and by True Sentiments for Attaining Salvation?AUM

narinder bhandari

----------

Dear Sadhaks,

To make your knowing reflected in action

the way, the only way

IS

Meditation

A s an answer to all the questions that arise in the Mind,

One answer, perhaps, that I suggest to you

Is

Put the question aside for a Moment

and instead, let the question be

" WHO IS IT THAT SEEKS TO KNOW ?"

Begin your search within

Begin with yourself

Who you are !

Are you the body ?

Does the ' body ' say , " I am. "

Or,

Are you the thought, " I am thisâ€¦. or â€¦that "

" I want thisâ€¦ orâ€¦. that "

" I donot like this â€¦. Or â€¦ that "

Are you the Mind that speaks and seeks all !

Or,

Are you the intellect passing judgements ?

Who, Sir, are you ?

Seek within, if you want to know.

Sit down in a quiet spot.

And, watch your thoughts.

Thoughts about the Body,

Thoughts about the Mind,

Judgements galore !

Watch, just watch.

Do nothing, but just watch.

And then,

Allow the primal Energy,

Which was manifest in all thoughts,

To manifest as it's own awareness !

By just watching

And, becoming the watcher, the seer,

The witness of all.

By stopping your chatter

And becoming silent, just becoming silent !

all is achieved.............. so say the Wise

Watch, Become a Witness, a Seer

That is,

If you so want !

If you want to enter the space of Bliss

Which is your own

Which does not die

If you want your knowing

To be reflected in action, in conduct

Ah !

This One Answer is valid, though,

If you are prepared to ' hear '

With your preoccupation with 'This and That ' set aside

This and That. How and Why.

For ONE Moment . This Moment Now.

NOW, my dear !!!!

AUM

narinder bhandari

------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari|| Ram Ram ||Dear Vineetaji, thanks for asking a very important question. Swamiji Maharaj has explained in detail the answer to this question. in his discourses. The answer to this question is contained in Gitaji also.Six noteworthy points (not necessarily independent) which act as a stopper to spiritual progress:1. We have assumed strong relationship with the persons and the objects of the world, the sense of 'ME' and 'MINE'. Our deepest desire is to draw the pleasure from the world, this is totally misplaced thought since the world does not have the capacity to supply us sustained Sukha (pleasure) because Gitaji is calling this world as a Dukhalya (House of suffering, ref: Gita: 8-15).2. Love of money, the assumption it is the sure ticket to attain ultimate sustaining happiness, people become so sure of it that they are ready to commit a crime to get the money. 3. We have divided our life into two separate compartments, (Adhyatam / Sadhna) part and the activities of the day to day life. It is a common observation that potential spiritual aspirants work hard to gain more and more bookish knowledge (information only) and listen to the many discourses without changing their way of life. This knowledge serves only one purpose - to boost the ego, the person claims, I know and many others do not know. In fact this knowledge proves to be a burden, person is ready to unloaded this information to whoever he can find to listen to. 4. The deep attachment to Bhoga (pleasure) and Sangrah (accumulation) does not allow us to have a single pointed-ness or focus for sustained effort for Sadhna (Ref. Gitaji 2/41-44). 5. The assumption that Maya is the culprit for our deep attachment, the relationships of the world do not leave us, actually it is just the reverse we do not want to leave the relationships. 6. Lack of urgency, the earnestness and sincerity (lagan) to pursue the spiritual path. Meera says "mere to Giridhar Gopal dusra na koi" Nothing else was important to her.

|| Ram Ram ||

Humble regards,Madan Kaura----------- Hari Om

Vineetaji ! You have asked a beautiful question. In fact we "know" but we do not"admit" ." Ham jaanate hain par ham maanate nahin". We know that whoever takes birth , dies. But when some one near and dear dies, we start crying. Why? Because inside, the importance of world is still there. We want to become happy, sure, but with worldly things. That then is not ANANDA. We want to gain knowledge, sure, but with books and of outer world. That then is not CHIT. We want to live forever, sure, but with this body. That then is not SAT. Desire for becoming SATCHIDANANDA is there in all of us, but erroneously we want to fulfil that desire with reference to the body/world/worldly things/worldly knowledge. Inside us, the importance of WORLD continues.

Our acceptance thus is not firm and well placed. We melt before the worldly enticements. We are not able to relinquish deep rooted desire for "SUKH BHOG and SANGRAH' ( Consumption and accumulation) arising out of body and world.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B ------Ram Ram,your question, "why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know and have fully accepted that THIS IS IT"it is half true, because you just know THIS IS IT, you haven't accepted it. There are few ifs and buts which still remain.We just collect datas in our brain. We don't implement them. Had you accepted THIS IS IT, there is nothing easier than this. Because you need not do any thing. Yes, if you don't accept THAT IS IT, then it's the toughest thing. I could not understand why people have problem accepting it. Though it is the only truth. Yes it is the only truth.Ashok Goenka--------------------------- Dear Vineeta, many answers to this query have been given ................. shastras can be quoted on them............ and all are true .......................... But the two simple answers which bring Joy to narinder's heart ,............. which make him aware of the paradox of action and destiny , and also lead the resolution of the paradox, narinder gives below............. Ans 1.narinder cannot at this moment quote the exact reference, but he remembers reading two shalokas in the scriptures ..................... ONE: Till the Time comes for you to meditate, you will not be able to do so

TWO ( next shaloka ) : BUT, if you think that the Time has not yet come, it will never come even in a thousand aeons ! Answer 2. Nisargadatta Maharaj was once asked the question asto why of all the thousands of disciples of his Guru, only he moved into enlightenment . His reply was , " This is one question that no enlightened person can truly answer. One can only say, ' perhaps my time had come '.....or, ' it was Grace ' ..." ah, dear sadhaks, who think that they are the Doers ( and almost everyone is into Doing, whereas the Truth is that you were never the Doer, only God is . ), all that they can do is to strive and strive ............ the results are only in God's hands ! Bh. Gt. Ch, 2/47 is applicable to one's sadhna too ! All the scriptures guide the Sadhaks as to how to ' DO' ( with what attitude, with what understanding ) so that the Ignorance of their being the Doers dies ............. and, the realisation of the Self or God being the only Doer dawns . It is 'not doing ; that is so peaceful, so blissful. That is why Krishna says , " Just surrender to me "( GT Ch. 18/66) But, surrender , too, is not a Doing..... it is an happening , it is Grace.. ...... ah ! Osho, the enlightened master, has said:, " People ask, what to do to move into Not-doing. There is no way. Yet I shall tell you what to do.................. When you read the scriptures, or get the answers from the Knowers of Truth.............. sit down and see the facticity of the truth read or heard. Just close your eyes and look at your own Life ............. watch it ............. weight the various incidents of your Life in the facticity of the answer or the Truth . In that watching, the Doing will, one day, get dropped by itself. The true understanding of the answer or the truth will 'happen' by itself ." AUM narinder bhandari-----My dandavat pranams to all in this forum..... Your question, Vineeta, is a sincere and direct inquiry....what is the difficulty in executing the orders of the ancient sadhus, gurus, etc? I have personally found, in years gone by, that I had to analyze carefully who I took influence from. I say "influence" rather than guidance, because we can be influenced by persons whom we don't necessarily even go to for guidance! We become affected by comments, even when it is sometimes just a passerby, we might overhear a conversation, see something on TV, or, the worst of all, go to a counselor whom we think, possibly, (under illusion) because of the title, "professional" has some edge on giving us instruction. I have found that maturity is a matter of developing our own strength to know that we want to follow the standards of the scriptures, even if it is not popular, not seen as modern, "cool", or socially "what's happening". It is a commitment to ourselves, to the Lord, and not to the changing material world in general.praying my words are not a cause of pain to anyone,Mahalaksmi Dasi----Priy sadhika ji

It is difficult due to lack of practice. Like a right handed person faces difficulty to perform same work with left hand. Although both hands are equal & one have full knowledge & believe one can do it But even then with left hand one feels difficult to do the same thing what one is doing by right hand. It is practice.Thanxraja gurdasani

--------------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

April 2, 2009

Dear SadhaksI am new to this forum in the capacity of an initiator of a topic However ihave d to this group for quite a while and I want to congratulate allconcerned in creating this platform to allow people like me to enrich myspritual space

I have been a student of Vedanta for the past 10 years and fully accept andsurrender to our highest ancient Philosophy

My question is why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know andhave fully accepted that THIS IS IT

Please enlighten....

vineeta malpani

----------------------

NEW POSTING

Namaste ,

Swamiji saying Saadhan Yoni (a birth for achieving and accomplishing it's goal). Yoni means womb. In any animal womb if a jeeva is born (Except for extreme rare case), that Jeeva does not have intellect. Has only instinct. Such Jeeva born from animal yoni, just very clearly and correctly washes away it` s karmas, only but not it` s vasana (impressions remaining in the mind from past births/action). Going through few animal births by just allowing people to kick it, kill it Etc attains human birth. Due to these animals performing their duties (Say an Ox pulling a cart, Cow giving milk, goat/hen giving meat-service to humans is Saadhana done by these animals) gets right to be born as human called Saadhana Yoni. Only a lady Human Yoni can give room to a Jeeva to continue Saadhana for liberation. As humans people get chance to learn Geetha, Srimath Bagavath, get blessings of Swamiji Etc and seek God. Only as human the liberation is possible said in many Puran and Upanashid as a concept. This concept only Swamiji says "Saadha Yoni" and further Swamiji has said to Sadaks that You are THAT, means you (Human) have all the provisions and body designed in such a manner to think, act, meditate and seek God. Such is birth of human very precious. (Maanusha Dheham Dullabam)

As Swamiji said that all humans are entitled and eligible for liberation, Moksha is abosolutely true. But this truth is not known to many. Let it be begger or king or politician, or social server or Ghrahastha, anyone can know this truth and read Geetha and practice dharmic life. Almost human race know that there is a eye opener Bagavath Geetha. But how many get chance to atleast listen to this? Only hand full. Swamiji has said the words , "Entitled & Eligible" to liberate.

A student gets eligible and entitled with Scholarship to do Ph.D. But he does not study and goes hay with pleasure of world due to teen age. As human, in childhood play, teenage wonders and pleasures and at old age Chintha Sakthaha Ref:(Bajagovindam) Man can sing Bagavan names, dance of HIS glory, DO Bajan on GOVIND Etc which he is eligible and has all the freedom to do, but does not do. So Punarapi Maranam, Punarapi Jananam---.

Virochna and Indra asked Bramaji who they are. Baramaji said, '" you are THAT SAT" go and see in still water. Virochana seeing his own image decided he is God and ended up in trouble. Indra seeing his image knew that it is reflection of his roop but not Swaroop and knew that he should seek Bhraman.

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan.

-----------------------------

Hari OmBeautiful short message by Sophiaji ! Narinderji ! couple of points of correction.... on your message in favour of "dependence" of a human being and " GOD IS THE DOER".

No to Both.. All Human beings are Entirely Independent and Eligible to attain God ! and

Neither God nor Pure Self are in any way doers (Karta). Jeeva (embodied soul) when he "assumes" himself to be doer, becomes "doer" because , whoever is "bhokta" (enjoyer) is a Karta (doer) . In reality, there is constant activity going on in the matter. Whoever forms "affinity" with it MUST become doer. If Jeeva is not doer, and instead God is doer, entire Karma Yoga becomes redundant. Verses upon verses starting from "karmanye vaadhikaraste" will become redundant. Human life has been given to you only for changing your SVABHAV / Nature / attitude. No other creature except a human being has that capacity/ privilege and competence. I would say even demi-gods (devatas) don't have that capacity. Question of animals etc having that capacity does not arise. Jeeva (human) has complete independence granted to him for changing his ego, his svabhav and turning towards God. He has "conscience" especially given to him, to help him in that.One must find out first as to why human life is stated to be rarest of the rare births? Why even Devatas want to become humans? Why? If a human is toy and everything is pre destined then what is the difference between a human and an animal? Human life is not a BHOG YONI (a birth for enjoyment of pleasures), it is Karma/Yog Yoni (a birth for selfless service / realizing Union). Here you are fully fully independent.Because in human life only you can change your "self" from worldly to divine. I REPEAT IN NO OTHER LIFE FORM YOU CAN DO SO ! Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say: Human life has been given to you only for changing your svabhav.A human is not a puppet like animals. A frog can not change its svabhav but a human can. BG 3:33 quoted refers to others. It says you can't change others. To yourself , you can always. Neither fate, nor Karmas, nor Law of Karma, nor any particular situation or circumstances , nor God,nor Time, nor "assumed" absence of Grace of God, nothing can ever be a hindrance in your turning towards Him. NOTHING- I repeat. Only willingness is needed. Only longing, exclusive longing, for God is needed- as so rightly stated by Sophiaji. PURUSHARTHA is needed. (Not help of Prarabdha).Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Out of the great respect for Ancient Philosophy, one accepts it and seeminglysurrenders to it, is obviously not sufficient, right Vineetaji? Otherwise thequestion of difficult to live its message will not arise!First of all the message has to be extracted carefully, and then chewed anddigested so it becomes blood, bones, and nerves of Vineeta, then only themessage becomes alive in you and acts. THen Vineeta becomes the excuse for themessage to shine Itself!Let us see the Vedanta's Core message: You are not the body-mind basedautonomous individual endowed with doer-ship. It is mistaken identity, the rootignorance! You are limitless Conscious-Being, Impersonal Intelligence!Everything is YOU, seamless One Consciousness!This is what you are right now,not that you will become! Just realize this truth now.If this message is thoroughly understood, goes through "you", you will feel, andact from this Understanding. In other words, this Understanding will act through"you". as you.Now some practical pointers:1)Don't worry about how difficult it is to live, just relax. You are responsiblefor obtaining understanding only, not doing.2) Meditate regularly on this message: Why do I consider myself as Vineeta, andwhat does it mean? Do I have any proof that I am so and so?3) When you are satisfied that you don't have any proof you are such Vineeta asyou have been taking yourself to be, then give this messaage a chance to act bydis-identifying with Vineeta in thoughts, and deeds. Take Vineeta as instrument,though, and take good care impartially and objectively, it is vehicle to takeyou home. You must visualize Vineeta in YOU as all bodies are in you! Practicethis often.4)Use this forum to clarify doubts, don't shun them away. If you come across aliving teacher or friends who are interested in Truth, discuss and dialogue withthem to erase all doubts. For your information, I have learned more from myTeacher with one on one dialogues then and there than from reading scriptures,or listening to one way talks. Above all Burn with the longing not to rest untilyou unfold the mystery of WHAT you are, the world you live in and God.5) If you are sincere the universe will conspire to give you this Knowledgewhich burns away all conditioning-karmas, and sets you free.

Namaskar.......

Pratap Bhatt

------------------------

Vineetaji,

You ask a very interesting question.

It depends on one's own level of "maturity"---a very mis-understood word.

Maturity does not mean total Vairagya, it means doing that which is necessary at that point in time, dispaasionately. As in, it does not mean one should give up the society and live in the forest or away from society, it means doing whatever needs to be done with "equanimity", while living in the society.

Swami Dayananda has a great example.

There is a balloon in the room, and there are 3 people---a 3 yr old child, an 8 yr old child, and an adult----you. The 8 yr old wants to play with the balloon, but the 3 yr old also wants it too. If the 8 yr old takes it, the 3 yr old wants it right away and will also cry. So, the 8 yr old lets him play with it. As soon as the 3 yr old leaves the room, the 8 yr old takes the balloon, until the 3 yr old comes back, and he gives the balloon back to him ! You play with the balloon with the 3 yr old, as if you are also 3 yrs old. When he is out of the room, if invited, you also play with the 8 yr old, as if you are 8 yrs old, and when the two kids are out of the room, you may or may not play with the balloon, even if it is in the room and both the children are out !! The 3 yr old is a balloon-Sansaaree--it means everything to him, and cannot live without it. The 8 yr old is a balloon-Tyagee, who can flit in and out of a balloon-sansaar ! he has done a tyaag but is still attached to it !! You on the other hand is a balloon-Sanyaasee. It means nothing to you, but you can still play with the children without becoming attached to it, and if they are not there, it can remain in a corner.

Let us say, you are a Wall Street type, who has now after reading become a Tyagee. You are still attached to the Sansaar, but can get out of it. By constantly doing things dispassionately, you will become a Sanyaasee, while living in the Society, and eventually may teach this to your friends and family. There is an obligation even to a Sanyaasee. The obligation is to teach. It does not die with the person, but is transmitted to posterity, by teaching.

According to Swami Dayananda, you must Teach only a "qualified" person, who is desirous of this knowledge, and has become a Tyagee and seeks this knowledge. So, you can do it Vinitaji. And you should. The Wall streeter is also performing only a job. That job should be done appropriately, without trying to fleece or cheat his clients. His / Her advice should be appropriate, and if in the course of time, he or she does mak a lot of money, there are enough charities and educational institutions in the world that can benefit from the largesse of such a proper person, who is bound to help "just and proper" institutions, such as schools for the blind, or education of the disenfranchised, health care of the poor or whatever helps the society. This help should come without any strings. Help for the sake of help only. The Lord passes the wealth through you to others.

Durgesh Mankikar,MD

-

Dear sadhaks,

In fewest words,

permit narinder to send to you

this missile of love

"Go beyond words ".............

Let not words become a trap, or a snare

And the only way to the Stllness of your Being

the only way to The Beyond ............................. Is

Meditation

Meditate, meditate, meditate

Meditate twice a day , And if that is not possible; At least , ONCE a day !!!!!

AUM

narinder bhandari

---

PRIOR POSTING

It is Grace and yet for Grace to be, one must have true longing for God and God aloneSophia -----

In the words of Pujya Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the root cause for not actualising the message of the Bhagavan is that we do things against once spiritual progress due to attachment to desire for enjoyment and pleasure. Attachment to desire for enjoyments is the greatest obstacle in Self / God Realization. When there is intense desire for enjoyment of pleasures, then giving it up appears to be very difficult, rather impossible. A spiritual aspirant is totally independent in giving up attachment to enjoyment of pleasures. He can give this attachment up through thought, inquiry and reflection. By thinking / inquirying, he can come to the understanding that he wants happiness that has no shortage or limitation, and that never ends.

"Yam labdhvaa chaaparam laabham manyate naadhikam tatah;yaasminnisthato na dukhen gurnaapi vichaalyatetam vidhyaadukhsam yog viyogam yogasanjitam. " (Gita 6:22-23)

"Having gained which state, he does not reckon any other gain greater than that, and wherein established, he is not shaken even by the greatest affliction.this separation from the assumed union with pain, is called Yoga."

Human beings are blessed with immense ability to think, reflect and discriminate between truth and untruth. If he chooses to not think, then it is his mistake and error. It is his lack of prudence and attention to what is important.

It is a rule that through the enjoyment of pleasures, the object enjoyed is destroyed and at the same time it leads to the enjoyer's downfall and decline. Just like with passion and desire when one indulges in wealth and material goods then that money is destroyed (used up) and one falls down. When importance of wealth, desire,greed, attachment, inertness, slavery etc. comes in him, then it leads to his downfall. When one indulges in enjoyment of food and eating, not only is food consumed and destroyed, but one takes a fall. The increased desire for enjoying foods and increased attachment to food is a sure downfall.

-- Paritala Gopi Krishna

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Wecome back, Paritala Gopi Krishnaji. After long time... it is good to hear from you.

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

----------------------------

Dear Sadak, Because one is stuck by a life pattern by his previous Karma account. A cart puller in most cases live and die just like any ordinary man. A high politician lives and dies evolved in that pattern of life. So each one is placed in a particular form Human, Animal, Bird etc to undergo Karma Bandh, says Bagavan to Yudhava in Yudhava Geetha. We see people has NO chance or chance given due to place of birth or under bad circumstances to say Om Namo Narayana/ Sri Rama/Namashivaya. To say it says that one needs previous Virtue (Puniya Pala) says Sri Vishnu Puran. To get that Virtue one gets it accidentally going to temple or meeting a Guru,or a day in Sat Sangh. From there the Virtue grows multi fold.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan Shree Hari Ram Ram Sathyanarayanji, you say "people have NO chance or chance given ... .to say the name of God", but Swamiji says human life is only a "saadhan yoni" and all human beings are entitled and eligible for liberation, God Realization, salvation, moksha etc. Can you share some insights on why possibly differing views ? From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------Attachment to worldly things prevents us from following the true path even when we know it. Through sadhna, satsang, sewa and meditation it is possible to get rid of attachment.Hari Shanker Deo

-----------------------

Bhagvada Geeta Ch 3/ sh 33.

" Even a wise man acts in accordance with his own nature; beings will follow their own nature; what can restraint do ?"

me thinks, the answer to Vineetas query is contained in the shloka above . At any point of time, we are what we are. We cannot have been otherwise. It is something to do with the paradox of Destiny and Effort. The desiring, wishing and willing, the effort, the Doing and the operation of the immutable Law of karma.... all come into play ................ to compel us to be what we are and act only according to our own nature ( swabhava) at any particular point of time. Actually, what vineeta would , perhaps, like to understand how to go beyond one's limitations of being at a certain time. She might find her answer in a related post by narinder on 01 Feb 09 Re: How can I Remember God and by True Sentiments for Attaining Salvation?

AUM narinder bhandari----------Dear Sadhaks,

To make your knowing reflected in action

the way, the only way

IS

Meditation

A s an answer to all the questions that arise in the Mind,

One answer, perhaps, that I suggest to you

Is

Put the question aside for a Moment

and instead, let the question be

" WHO IS IT THAT SEEKS TO KNOW ?"

Begin your search within

Begin with yourself

Who you are !

Are you the body ?

Does the ' body ' say , " I am. "

Or,

Are you the thought, " I am thisâ€¦. or â€¦that "

" I want thisâ€¦ orâ€¦. that " " I donot like this â€¦. Or â€¦ that "

Are you the Mind that speaks and seeks all !

Or,

Are you the intellect passing judgements ?

Who, Sir, are you ?

Seek within, if you want to know.

Sit down in a quiet spot.

And, watch your thoughts.

Thoughts about the Body,

Thoughts about the Mind,

Judgements galore !

Watch, just watch.

Do nothing, but just watch.

And then,

Allow the primal Energy,

Which was manifest in all thoughts,

To manifest as it's own awareness !

By just watching

And, becoming the watcher, the seer,

The witness of all.

By stopping your chatter

And becoming silent, just becoming silent !

all is achieved.............. so say the Wise

Watch, Become a Witness, a Seer

That is,

If you so want !

If you want to enter the space of Bliss

Which is your own

Which does not die

If you want your knowing

To be reflected in action, in conduct

Ah !

This One Answer is valid, though,

If you are prepared to ' hear '

With your preoccupation with 'This and That ' set aside

This and That. How and Why.

For ONE Moment . This Moment Now.

NOW, my dear !!!!

AUM

narinder bhandari

------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari|| Ram Ram ||Dear Vineetaji, thanks for asking a very important question. Swamiji Maharaj has explained in detail the answer to this question. in his discourses. The answer to this question is contained in Gitaji also.Six noteworthy points (not necessarily independent) which act as a stopper to spiritual progress:1. We have assumed strong relationship with the persons and the objects of the world, the sense of 'ME' and 'MINE'. Our deepest desire is to draw the pleasure from the world, this is totally misplaced thought since the world does not have the capacity to supply us sustained Sukha (pleasure) because Gitaji is calling this world as a Dukhalya (House of suffering, ref: Gita: 8-15).2. Love of money, the assumption it is the sure ticket to attain ultimate sustaining happiness, people become so sure of it that they are ready to commit a crime to get the money. 3. We have divided our life into two separate compartments, (Adhyatam / Sadhna) part and the activities of the day to day life. It is a common observation that potential spiritual aspirants work hard to gain more and more bookish knowledge (information only) and listen to the many discourses without changing their way of life. This knowledge serves only one purpose - to boost the ego, the person claims, I know and many others do not know. In fact this knowledge proves to be a burden, person is ready to unloaded this information to whoever he can find to listen to. 4. The deep attachment to Bhoga (pleasure) and Sangrah (accumulation) does not allow us to have a single pointed-ness or focus for sustained effort for Sadhna (Ref. Gitaji 2/41-44). 5. The assumption that Maya is the culprit for our deep attachment, the relationships of the world do not leave us, actually it is just the reverse we do not want to leave the relationships. 6. Lack of urgency, the earnestness and sincerity (lagan) to pursue the spiritual path. Meera says "mere to Giridhar Gopal dusra na koi" Nothing else was important to her.

|| Ram Ram ||

Humble regards,Madan Kaura----------- Hari Om

Vineetaji ! You have asked a beautiful question. In fact we "know" but we do not"admit" ." Ham jaanate hain par ham maanate nahin". We know that whoever takes birth , dies. But when some one near and dear dies, we start crying. Why? Because inside, the importance of world is still there. We want to become happy, sure, but with worldly things. That then is not ANANDA. We want to gain knowledge, sure, but with books and of outer world. That then is not CHIT. We want to live forever, sure, but with this body. That then is not SAT. Desire for becoming SATCHIDANANDA is there in all of us, but erroneously we want to fulfil that desire with reference to the body/world/worldly things/worldly knowledge. Inside us, the importance of WORLD continues.

Our acceptance thus is not firm and well placed. We melt before the worldly enticements. We are not able to relinquish deep rooted desire for "SUKH BHOG and SANGRAH' ( Consumption and accumulation) arising out of body and world.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B ------Ram Ram,your question, "why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know and have fully accepted that THIS IS IT"it is half true, because you just know THIS IS IT, you haven't accepted it. There are few ifs and buts which still remain.We just collect datas in our brain. We don't implement them. Had you accepted THIS IS IT, there is nothing easier than this. Because you need not do any thing. Yes, if you don't accept THAT IS IT, then it's the toughest thing. I could not understand why people have problem accepting it. Though it is the only truth. Yes it is the only truth.Ashok Goenka--------------------------- Dear Vineeta, many answers to this query have been given ................. shastras can be quoted on them............ and all are true .......................... But the two simple answers which bring Joy to narinder's heart ,............. which make him aware of the paradox of action and destiny , and also lead the resolution of the paradox, narinder gives below............. Ans 1.narinder cannot at this moment quote the exact reference, but he remembers reading two shalokas in the scriptures ..................... ONE: Till the Time comes for you to meditate, you will not be able to do so

TWO ( next shaloka ) : BUT, if you think that the Time has not yet come, it will never come even in a thousand aeons ! Answer 2. Nisargadatta Maharaj was once asked the question asto why of all the thousands of disciples of his Guru, only he moved into enlightenment . His reply was , " This is one question that no enlightened person can truly answer. One can only say, ' perhaps my time had come '.....or, ' it was Grace ' ..." ah, dear sadhaks, who think that they are the Doers ( and almost everyone is into Doing, whereas the Truth is that you were never the Doer, only God is . ), all that they can do is to strive and strive ............ the results are only in God's hands ! Bh. Gt. Ch, 2/47 is applicable to one's sadhna too ! All the scriptures guide the Sadhaks as to how to ' DO' ( with what attitude, with what understanding ) so that the Ignorance of their being the Doers dies ............. and, the realisation of the Self or God being the only Doer dawns . It is 'not doing ; that is so peaceful, so blissful. That is why Krishna says , " Just surrender to me "( GT Ch. 18/66) But, surrender , too, is not a Doing..... it is an happening , it is Grace.. ...... ah ! Osho, the enlightened master, has said:, " People ask, what to do to move into Not-doing. There is no way. Yet I shall tell you what to do.................. When you read the scriptures, or get the answers from the Knowers of Truth.............. sit down and see the facticity of the truth read or heard. Just close your eyes and look at your own Life ............. watch it ............. weight the various incidents of your Life in the facticity of the answer or the Truth . In that watching, the Doing will, one day, get dropped by itself. The true understanding of the answer or the truth will 'happen' by itself ." AUM narinder bhandari-----My dandavat pranams to all in this forum..... Your question, Vineeta, is a sincere and direct inquiry....what is the difficulty in executing the orders of the ancient sadhus, gurus, etc? I have personally found, in years gone by, that I had to analyze carefully who I took influence from. I say "influence" rather than guidance, because we can be influenced by persons whom we don't necessarily even go to for guidance! We become affected by comments, even when it is sometimes just a passerby, we might overhear a conversation, see something on TV, or, the worst of all, go to a counselor whom we think, possibly, (under illusion) because of the title, "professional" has some edge on giving us instruction. I have found that maturity is a matter of developing our own strength to know that we want to follow the standards of the scriptures, even if it is not popular, not seen as modern, "cool", or socially "what's happening". It is a commitment to ourselves, to the Lord, and not to the changing material world in general.praying my words are not a cause of pain to anyone,Mahalaksmi Dasi----Priy sadhika ji

It is difficult due to lack of practice. Like a right handed person faces difficulty to perform same work with left hand. Although both hands are equal & one have full knowledge & believe one can do it But even then with left hand one feels difficult to do the same thing what one is doing by right hand. It is practice.Thanxraja gurdasani

--------------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

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April 2, 2009

Dear SadhaksI am new to this forum in the capacity of an initiator of a topic However ihave d to this group for quite a while and I want to congratulate allconcerned in creating this platform to allow people like me to enrich myspritual spaceI have been a student of Vedanta for the past 10 years and fully accept andsurrender to our highest ancient PhilosophyMy question is why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know andhave fully accepted that THIS IS ITPlease enlighten....vineeta malpani----------------------NEW POSTING-Shree Hari-Dear Vineeta,You have studied the Vedanta, and fully accept 'THIS IS IT', and you fullyaccept and surrender to this 'Ancient Philosophy'.Buddha said, "I point at the moon, and you look at my finger".Your question is,"... why is it so difficult to live that philosophy".The philosophy must be pointing you, guiding you ultimately to Moksha.It is the finger that points. I have studied various traditions overthe decades, and realized by stepping back as it were, they are all pointing tothe same place.I have found that the Bhagvad Geeta is the most connecting of all that I haveread, (that's the best way that I can put it), Arjuna and Shree Krishna comeover so strongly, that the corridors of time seem not to exist.May I offer you these wonderful words:B.G. Ch.7These four kinds of virtuous menDo worship Me, O Arjuna:The distressed, seekers of welfare,Seekers of knowledge, and the wise. (16)Of them, the wise man, e'er steadfast,Devoted to the One, excels;Supremely dear am I to him,And he is dear to Me, as well. (17)All these indeed are exalted,But I see the man of wisdomAs My Self. He, with mind steadfast,Abides in Me, the Supreme Goal. (18)At the end of his many birthsThe wise man takes refuge in Me.He knows: "All is Vasudeva.How very rare is that great soul! (19)With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor-----------------------Hari OmAs always ,

Vasudev Sathyanarainji reflects, in his latest message, purity and

innocence , a hall mark of real sadhak. He reflects here a concern for

general ! He says:But how many get chance to atleast

listen to this? Only hand full. Swamiji has said the words , "Entitled

& Eligible" to liberate. Vasudev Sathyanaraiji ! Consider that "entitlement and eligibilty" to be CHANGING from "I am of the world, world is mine" TOI am of God, Only God is mine, Nothing else is mineMERE TO GIRDHAR GOPAL , DOOSARO NA KOIMatter

ends. All scriptures, saints , verses of Gitaji, Upanishads, Vedas, get

reconciled. All subtle confusions get cleared, all dilemmas go away-

the very ego , the very one's SELF changes for ever, never to change

again !! Becomes Divine forever.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B --------------------------------Dear Vyas jee,Thank you for your thoughts ..You are right !The Self ( atma) is NOT the doer . Ch. 13/ 30.All human beings are eligible to attain God and have the freedom of choice whether or not to do so.. a freedom granted to them by the Lord.. the freedom called "free-will"The Self is One ................ Ek Omkar ..........there are no two selfs, ah ! when all is Govinda, then ,who is the seeker, and who the sought ......... pray !when all is One,when there is action in action, and inaction in action ..........when both are One , where is the Paradox of being, pray !If yes is No... and No is Yes ............ when in Love they embrace ,where is the paradox , pray !If Silence is the only Reality, beyond all words ............ IF , when the self is known, all becomes known ............IF all the doing culminates in Not-Doing,who is the doer , and who the non-doer, pray .....when dancing stops, where is the dance , and where is the dancer ......... ?? when Mind rests in deep sleep , in the embrace of the Un-known,who is it that is no more, and who, ever and ever, the One ever known ??ah, narinder, the not-knower , does not know .............BUT.......... Krishna Beloved says ............... "I do nothing at all", thus would be the harmonized knower of Truth think, seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, eating, going, sleeping, breathing, Speaking, letting go, seizing, opening and closing his eyes convinced that the senses move among the sense objects " (Gita Shlokas 5/8 and 5/9; Gita 13/ 31, 13/32, and Gita 14/3, )The reward, Kanha promised for Sadhna is freedom from the bonds of Action, yielding good and evil "fruits" ( Gita 9/28) narinder , verily , prayed to Kanha To allow the Mind to die to thought ......... and krishna Beloved ........... who answers all prayers replied ............. " Die, narinder, die ............ death is the Way Love and Hate, Life and Death ............ drop your Mind, and know ............. Love is the Way , Silence is the Way, One -ness is the Way Meditation and Death are not -two.... Meditation is the Way .......... Go beyond words, nari, go beyond words Dropping all doubts , and all assertions is the WAY ............................... "Narinder BhandariPRIOR POSTINGNamaste ,Swamiji saying Saadhan Yoni (a birth for achieving and accomplishing it's goal). Yoni means womb. In any animal womb if a jeeva is born (Except for extreme rare case), that Jeeva does not have intellect. Has only instinct. Such Jeeva born from animal yoni, just very clearly and correctly washes away it` s karmas, only but not it` s vasana (impressions remaining in the mind from past births/action). Going through few animal births by just allowing people to kick it, kill it Etc attains human birth. Due to these animals performing their duties (Say an Ox pulling a cart, Cow giving milk, goat/hen giving meat-service to humans is Saadhana done by these animals) gets right to be born as human called Saadhana Yoni. Only a lady Human Yoni can give room to a Jeeva to continue Saadhana for liberation. As humans people get chance to learn Geetha, Srimath Bagavath, get blessings of Swamiji Etc and seek God. Only as human the liberation is possible said in many Puran and Upanashid as a concept. This concept only Swamiji says "Saadha Yoni" and further Swamiji has said to Sadaks that You are THAT, means you (Human) have all the provisions and body designed in such a manner to think, act, meditate and seek God. Such is birth of human very precious. (Maanusha Dheham Dullabam) As Swamiji said that all humans are entitled and eligible for liberation, Moksha is abosolutely true. But this truth is not known to many. Let it be begger or king or politician, or social server or Ghrahastha, anyone can know this truth and read Geetha and practice dharmic life. Almost human race know that there is a eye opener Bagavath Geetha. But how many get chance to atleast listen to this? Only hand full. Swamiji has said the words , "Entitled & Eligible" to liberate. A student gets eligible and entitled with Scholarship to do Ph.D. But he does not study and goes hay with pleasure of world due to teen age. As human, in childhood play, teenage wonders and pleasures and at old age Chintha Sakthaha Ref:(Bajagovindam) Man can sing Bagavan names, dance of HIS glory, DO Bajan on GOVIND Etc which he is eligible and has all the freedom to do, but does not do. So Punarapi Maranam, Punarapi Jananam---. Virochna and Indra asked Bramaji who they are. Baramaji said, '" you are THAT SAT" go and see in still water. Virochana seeing his own image decided he is God and ended up in trouble. Indra seeing his image knew that it is reflection of his roop but not Swaroop and knew that he should seek Bhraman.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan.-----------------------------Hari OmBeautiful short message by Sophiaji ! Narinderji ! couple of points of correction.... on your message in favour of "dependence" of a human being and " GOD IS THE DOER".No to Both.. All Human beings are Entirely Independent and Eligible to attain God ! andNeither God nor Pure Self are in any way doers (Karta). Jeeva (embodied soul) when he "assumes" himself to be doer, becomes "doer" because , whoever is "bhokta" (enjoyer) is a Karta (doer) . In reality, there is constant activity going on in the matter. Whoever forms "affinity" with it MUST become doer. If Jeeva is not doer, and instead God is doer, entire Karma Yoga becomes redundant. Verses upon verses starting from "karmanye vaadhikaraste" will become redundant.Human life has been given to you only for changing your SVABHAV / Nature / attitude. No other creature except a human being has that capacity/ privilege and competence. I would say even demi-gods (devatas) don't have that capacity. Question of animals etc having that capacity does not arise. Jeeva (human) has complete independence granted to him for changing his ego, his svabhav and turning towards God. He has "conscience" especially given to him, to help him in that.One must find out first as to why human life is stated to be rarest of the rare births? Why even Devatas want to become humans? Why? If a human is toy and everything is pre destined then what is the difference between a human and an animal? Human life is not a BHOG YONI (a birth for enjoyment of pleasures), it is Karma/Yog Yoni (a birth for selfless service / realizing Union). Here you are fully fully independent.Because in human life only you can change your "self" from worldly to divine. I REPEAT IN NO OTHER LIFE FORM YOU CAN DO SO ! Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say: Human life has been given to you only for changing your svabhav.A human is not a puppet like animals. A frog can not change its svabhav but a human can. BG 3:33 quoted refers to others. It says you can't change others. To yourself , you can always. Neither fate, nor Karmas, nor Law of Karma, nor any particular situation or circumstances , nor God,nor Time, nor "assumed" absence of Grace of God, nothing can ever be a hindrance in your turning towards Him. NOTHING- I repeat. Only willingness is needed. Only longing, exclusive longing, for God is needed- as so rightly stated by Sophiaji. PURUSHARTHA is needed. (Not help of Prarabdha).Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N BDear Sadhakas, Namaste!Out of the great respect for Ancient Philosophy, one accepts it and seeminglysurrenders to it, is obviously not sufficient, right Vineetaji? Otherwise thequestion of difficult to live its message will not arise!First of all the message has to be extracted carefully, and then chewed anddigested so it becomes blood, bones, and nerves of Vineeta, then only themessage becomes alive in you and acts. THen Vineeta becomes the excuse for themessage to shine Itself!Let us see the Vedanta's Core message: You are not the body-mind basedautonomous individual endowed with doer-ship. It is mistaken identity, the rootignorance! You are limitless Conscious-Being, Impersonal Intelligence!Everything is YOU, seamless One Consciousness!This is what you are right now,not that you will become! Just realize this truth now.If this message is thoroughly understood, goes through "you", you will feel, andact from this Understanding. In other words, this Understanding will act through"you". as you.Now some practical pointers:1)Don't worry about how difficult it is to live, just relax. You are responsiblefor obtaining understanding only, not doing.2) Meditate regularly on this message: Why do I consider myself as Vineeta, andwhat does it mean? Do I have any proof that I am so and so?3) When you are satisfied that you don't have any proof you are such Vineeta asyou have been taking yourself to be, then give this messaage a chance to act bydis-identifying with Vineeta in thoughts, and deeds. Take Vineeta as instrument,though, and take good care impartially and objectively, it is vehicle to takeyou home. You must visualize Vineeta in YOU as all bodies are in you! Practicethis often.4)Use this forum to clarify doubts, don't shun them away. If you come across aliving teacher or friends who are interested in Truth, discuss and dialogue withthem to erase all doubts. For your information, I have learned more from myTeacher with one on one dialogues then and there than from reading scriptures,or listening to one way talks. Above all Burn with the longing not to rest untilyou unfold the mystery of WHAT you are, the world you live in and God.5) If you are sincere the universe will conspire to give you this Knowledgewhich burns away all conditioning-karmas, and sets you free.Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt------------------------Vineetaji, You ask a very interesting question. It depends on one's own level of "maturity"---a very mis-understood word.Maturity does not mean total Vairagya, it means doing that which is necessary at that point in time, dispaasionately. As in, it does not mean one should give up the society and live in the forest or away from society, it means doing whatever needs to be done with "equanimity", while living in the society. Swami Dayananda has a great example.There is a balloon in the room, and there are 3 people---a 3 yr old child, an 8 yr old child, and an adult----you. The 8 yr old wants to play with the balloon, but the 3 yr old also wants it too. If the 8 yr old takes it, the 3 yr old wants it right away and will also cry. So, the 8 yr old lets him play with it. As soon as the 3 yr old leaves the room, the 8 yr old takes the balloon, until the 3 yr old comes back, and he gives the balloon back to him ! You play with the balloon with the 3 yr old, as if you are also 3 yrs old. When he is out of the room, if invited, you also play with the 8 yr old, as if you are 8 yrs old, and when the two kids are out of the room, you may or may not play with the balloon, even if it is in the room and both the children are out !! The 3 yr old is a balloon-Sansaaree--it means everything to him, and cannot live without it. The 8 yr old is a balloon-Tyagee, who can flit in and out of a balloon-sansaar ! he has done a tyaag but is still attached to it !! You on the other hand is a balloon-Sanyaasee. It means nothing to you, but you can still play with the children without becoming attached to it, and if they are not there, it can remain in a corner. Let us say, you are a Wall Street type, who has now after reading become a Tyagee. You are still attached to the Sansaar, but can get out of it. By constantly doing things dispassionately, you will become a Sanyaasee, while living in the Society, and eventually may teach this to your friends and family. There is an obligation even to a Sanyaasee. The obligation is to teach. It does not die with the person, but is transmitted to posterity, by teaching. According to Swami Dayananda, you must Teach only a "qualified" person, who is desirous of this knowledge, and has become a Tyagee and seeks this knowledge. So, you can do it Vinitaji. And you should. The Wall streeter is also performing only a job. That job should be done appropriately, without trying to fleece or cheat his clients. His / Her advice should be appropriate, and if in the course of time, he or she does mak a lot of money, there are enough charities and educational institutions in the world that can benefit from the largesse of such a proper person, who is bound to help "just and proper" institutions, such as schools for the blind, or education of the disenfranchised, health care of the poor or whatever helps the society. This help should come without any strings. Help for the sake of help only. The Lord passes the wealth through you to others. Durgesh Mankikar,MD-Dear sadhaks, In fewest words,permit narinder to send to youthis missile of love "Go beyond words ".............Let not words become a trap, or a snareAnd the only way to the Stllness of your Being the only way to The Beyond ............................. IsMeditationMeditate, meditate, meditateMeditate twice a day , And if that is not possible; At least , ONCE a day !!!!!AUMnarinder bhandari---PRIOR POSTINGIt is Grace and yet for Grace to be, one must have true longing for God and God aloneSophia-----In the words of Pujya Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the root cause for not actualising the message of the Bhagavan is that we do things against once spiritual progress due to attachment to desire for enjoyment and pleasure. Attachment to desire for enjoyments is the greatest obstacle in Self / God Realization. When there is intense desire for enjoyment of pleasures, then giving it up appears to be very difficult, rather impossible. A spiritual aspirant is totally independent in giving up attachment to enjoyment of pleasures. He can give this attachment up through thought, inquiry and reflection. By thinking / inquirying, he can come to the understanding that he wants happiness that has no shortage or limitation, and that never ends."Yam labdhvaa chaaparam laabham manyate naadhikam tatah;yaasminnisthato na dukhen gurnaapi vichaalyatetam vidhyaadukhsam yog viyogam yogasanjitam. " (Gita 6:22-23)"Having gained which state, he does not reckon any other gain greater than that, and wherein established, he is not shaken even by the greatest affliction.this separation from the assumed union with pain, is called Yoga."Human beings are blessed with immense ability to think, reflect and discriminate between truth and untruth. If he chooses to not think, then it is his mistake and error. It is his lack of prudence and attention to what is important.It is a rule that through the enjoyment of pleasures, the object enjoyed is destroyed and at the same time it leads to the enjoyer's downfall and decline. Just like with passion and desire when one indulges in wealth and material goods then that money is destroyed (used up) and one falls down. When importance of wealth, desire,greed, attachment, inertness, slavery etc. comes in him, then it leads to his downfall. When one indulges in enjoyment of food and eating, not only is food consumed and destroyed, but one takes a fall. The increased desire for enjoying foods and increased attachment to food is a sure downfall.-- Paritala Gopi KrishnaShree Hari Ram RamWecome back, Paritala Gopi Krishnaji. After long time... it is good to hear from you.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram----------------------------Dear Sadak,Because one is stuck by a life pattern by his previous Karma account. A cart puller in most cases live and die just like any ordinary man. A high politician lives and dies evolved in that pattern of life. So each one is placed in a particular form Human, Animal, Bird etc to undergo Karma Bandh, says Bagavan to Yudhava in Yudhava Geetha. We see people has NO chance or chance given due to place of birth or under bad circumstances to say Om Namo Narayana/ Sri Rama/Namashivaya. To say it says that one needs previous Virtue (Puniya Pala) says Sri Vishnu Puran. To get that Virtue one gets it accidentally going to temple or meeting a Guru,or a day in Sat Sangh. From there the Virtue grows multi fold.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan Shree HariRam RamSathyanarayanji, you say "people have NO chance or chance given ... .to say the name of God", but Swamiji says human life is only a "saadhan yoni" and all human beings are entitled and eligible for liberation, God Realization, salvation, moksha etc. Can you share some insights on why possibly differing views ? From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------Attachment to worldly things prevents us from following the true path even when we know it. Through sadhna, satsang, sewa and meditation it is possible to get rid of attachment.Hari Shanker Deo-----------------------Bhagvada Geeta Ch 3/ sh 33." Even a wise man acts in accordance with his own nature; beings will follow their own nature; what can restraint do ?" me thinks, the answer to Vineetas query is contained in the shloka above . At any point of time, we are what we are. We cannot have been otherwise. It is something to do with the paradox of Destiny and Effort. The desiring, wishing and willing, the effort, the Doing and the operation of the immutable Law of karma.... all come into play ................ to compel us to be what we are and act only according to our own nature ( swabhava) at any particular point of time. Actually, what vineeta would , perhaps, like to understand how to go beyond one's limitations of being at a certain time. She might find her answer in a related post by narinder on 01 Feb 09 Re: How can I Remember God and by True Sentiments for Attaining Salvation?AUM narinder bhandari----------Dear Sadhaks,To make your knowing reflected in actionthe way, the only wayISMeditationA s an answer to all the questions that arise in the Mind,One answer, perhaps, that I suggest to youIsPut the question aside for a Momentand instead, let the question be" WHO IS IT THAT SEEKS TO KNOW ?"Begin your search withinBegin with yourselfBegin with yourselfWho you are !Are you the body ?Does the ' body ' say , " I am. " Or, Are you the thought, " I am thisâ€¦. or â€¦that " " I want thisâ€¦ orâ€¦. that " " I donot like this â€¦. Or â€¦ that "Are you the Mind that speaks and seeks all !Or,Are you the intellect passing judgements ?Who, Sir, are you ?Seek within, if you want to know.Sit down in a quiet spot. And, watch your thoughts.Thoughts about the Body,Thoughts about the Mind,Judgements galore !Watch, just watch. Do nothing, but just watch.And then, Allow the primal Energy,Which was manifest in all thoughts,To manifest as it's own awareness !By just watchingAnd, becoming the watcher, the seer, The witness of all.By stopping your chatterAnd becoming silent, just becoming silent ! all is achieved.............. so say the Wise Watch, Become a Witness, a SeerThat is, If you so want ! If you want to enter the space of BlissWhich is your ownWhich does not die If you want your knowingTo be reflected in action, in conduct Ah ! This One Answer is valid, though, If you are prepared to ' hear 'With your preoccupation with 'This and That ' set asideThis and That. How and Why.For ONE Moment . This Moment Now.NOW, my dear !!!!AUM narinder bhandari ------PRIOR POSTINGShree Hari|| Ram Ram ||Dear Vineetaji, thanks for asking a very important question.Swamiji Maharaj has explained in detail the answer to this question. in his discourses. The answer to this question is contained in Gitaji also.Six noteworthy points (not necessarily independent) which act as a stopper to spiritual progress:1. We have assumed strong relationship with the persons and the objects of the world, the sense of 'ME' and 'MINE'. Our deepest desire is to draw the pleasure from the world, this is totally misplaced thought since the world does not have the capacity to supply us sustained Sukha (pleasure) because Gitaji is calling this world as a Dukhalya (House of suffering, ref: Gita: 8-15).2. Love of money, the assumption it is the sure ticket to attain ultimate sustaining happiness, people become so sure of it that they are ready to commit a crime to get the money. 3. We have divided our life into two separate compartments, (Adhyatam / Sadhna) part and the activities of the day to day life. It is a common observation that potential spiritual aspirants work hard to gain more and more bookish knowledge (information only) and listen to the many discourses without changing their way of life. This knowledge serves only one purpose - to boost the ego, the person claims, I know and many others do not know. In fact this knowledge proves to be a burden, person is ready to unloaded this information to whoever he can find to listen to.4. The deep attachment to Bhoga (pleasure) and Sangrah (accumulation) does not allow us to have a single pointed-ness or focus for sustained effort for Sadhna (Ref. Gitaji 2/41-44). 5. The assumption that Maya is the culprit for our deep attachment, the relationships of the world do not leave us, actually it is just the reverse we do not want to leave the relationships.6. Lack of urgency, the earnestness and sincerity (lagan) to pursue the spiritual path. Meera says "mere to Giridhar Gopal dusra na koi" Nothing else was important to her.|| Ram Ram ||Humble regards,Madan Kaura----------- Hari OmVineetaji ! You have asked a beautiful question. In fact we "know" but we do not"admit" ." Ham jaanate hain par ham maanate nahin". We know that whoever takes birth , dies. But when some one near and dear dies, we start crying. Why? Because inside, the importance of world is still there. We want to become happy, sure, but with worldly things. That then is not ANANDA. We want to gain knowledge, sure, but with books and of outer world. That then is not CHIT. We want to live forever, sure, but with this body. That then is not SAT. Desire for becoming SATCHIDANANDA is there in all of us, but erroneously we want to fulfil that desire with reference to the body/world/worldly things/worldly knowledge. Inside us, the importance of WORLD continues.Our acceptance thus is not firm and well placed. We melt before the worldly enticements. We are not able to relinquish deep rooted desire for "SUKH BHOG and SANGRAH' ( Consumption and accumulation) arising out of body and world.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ------Ram Ram,your question, "why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know and have fully accepted that THIS IS IT"it is half true, because you just know THIS IS IT, you haven't accepted it. There are few ifs and buts which still remain.We just collect datas in our brain. We don't implement them. Had you accepted THIS IS IT, there is nothing easier than this. Because you need not do any thing. Yes, if you don't accept THAT IS IT, then it's the toughest thing. I could not understand why people have problem accepting it. Though it is the only truth. Yes it is the only truth.Ashok Goenka--------------------------- Dear Vineeta, many answers to this query have been given ................. shastras can be quoted on them............ and all are true .......................... But the two simple answers which bring Joy to narinder's heart ,............. which make him aware of the paradox of action and destiny , and also lead the resolution of the paradox, narinder gives below............. Ans 1.narinder cannot at this moment quote the exact reference, but he remembers reading two shalokas in the scriptures ..................... ONE: Till the Time comes for you to meditate, you will not be able to do soTWO ( next shaloka ) : BUT, if you think that the Time has not yet come, it will never come even in a thousand aeons ! Answer 2. Nisargadatta Maharaj was once asked the question asto why of all the thousands of disciples of his Guru, only he moved into enlightenment . His reply was , " This is one question that no enlightened person can truly answer. One can only say, ' perhaps my time had come '.....or, ' it was Grace ' ..." ah, dear sadhaks, who think that they are the Doers ( and almost everyone is into Doing, whereas the Truth is that you were never the Doer, only God is . ), all that they can do is to strive and strive ............ the results are only in God's hands ! Bh. Gt. Ch, 2/47 is applicable to one's sadhna too ! All the scriptures guide the Sadhaks as to how to ' DO' ( with what attitude, with what understanding ) so that the Ignorance of their being the Doers dies ............. and, the realisation of the Self or God being the only Doer dawns . It is 'not doing ; that is so peaceful, so blissful. That is why Krishna says , " Just surrender to me "( GT Ch. 18/66) But, surrender , too, is not a Doing..... it is an happening , it is Grace.. ...... ah ! Osho, the enlightened master, has said:, " People ask, what to do to move into Not-doing. There is no way. Yet I shall tell you what to do..................When you read the scriptures, or get the answers from the Knowers of Truth.............. sit down and see the facticity of the truth read or heard. Just close your eyes and look at your own Life ............. watch it ............. weight the various incidents of your Life in the facticity of the answer or the Truth . In that watching, the Doing will, one day, get dropped by itself. The true understanding of the answer or the truth will 'happen' by itself ." AUM narinder bhandari-----My dandavat pranams to all in this forum..... Your question, Vineeta, is a sincere and direct inquiry....what is the difficulty in executing the orders of the ancient sadhus, gurus, etc? I have personally found, in years gone by, that I had to analyze carefully who I took influence from. I say "influence" rather than guidance, because we can be influenced by persons whom we don't necessarily even go to for guidance! We become affected by comments, even when it is sometimes just a passerby, we might overhear a conversation, see something on TV, or, the worst of all, go to a counselor whom we think, possibly, (under illusion) because of the title, "professional" has some edge on giving us instruction. I have found that maturity is a matter of developing our own strength to know that we want to follow the standards of the scriptures, even if it is not popular, not seen as modern, "cool", or socially "what's happening". It is a commitment to ourselves, to the Lord, and not to the changing material world in general.praying my words are not a cause of pain to anyone,Mahalaksmi Dasi----Priy sadhika jiIt is difficult due to lack of practice. Like a right handed person faces difficulty to perform same work with left hand. Although both hands are equal & one have full knowledge & believe one can do it But even then with left hand one feels difficult to do the same thing what one is doing by right hand. It is practice.Thanxraja gurdasani--------------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

April 3, 2009

Dear SadhaksI am new to this forum in the capacity of an initiator of a topic However ihave d to this group for quite a while and I want to congratulate allconcerned in creating this platform to allow people like me to enrich myspiritual spaceI have been a student of Vedanta for the past 10 years and fully accept andsurrender to our highest ancient PhilosophyMy question is why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know andhave fully accepted that THIS IS ITPlease enlighten....vineeta malpani----------------------NEW POSTINGWhy is it so difficult to actualise the message of the Bhagvad Geeta ?Simple ... overwhelming IGNORANCE (lack of clarity) and stubborn INERTIA(hesitance to change)... on top of all the towering notion of ownership onignorance in the name of knowledge and on inertia in the name of volition ...the ego ...Respects.Naga Narayana.------------------------------Dear sadak,

A Sadak question: ""why is it (Vedantha) so difficult to live that

philosophy when you know and have fully accepted that THIS IS IT"".

Because IT is beyond any sense or senses of ordinary human. It is not

important whether you fully accept or not. IT is to be known by Gyana

and not by any means. To get Gyana Vedhant is only theory, but vedhant

has also to be practiced, by Vairag (Determination) -surrender-

dissolving 6 bad Gunas,- becoming totally Satvik, which one will face

difficulties. Sri Mikeji words ,""Supremely Dear am I to him AND he is

dear to me"". What does it mean? No matter how deep you may do anything

divine, it does not work that easy. It is HIS (God) sankalp (Wish) that

can transform one. Now all know that Yudhistra and 4 brothers were

silent in spite of Droupathi being disrobed and maximum insulting words

and physical torcher (Removing their crowns, robes etc) for what? To

maintain Dharma. To such Dharmic person Arjuna, it was the effort and

grace of Bagavan by saying Geetha which transformed him. So however

Dharmic, strong, wealthy one may be, it is HIS sankalp that can make

wonders. Another Example: What Ajamil Do in his life time? He only

called his son Narayana at his last breath. Fire when touched knowingly

or unknowingly burns. So the NAM of Narayana said has effect of Vishnu

Dhoot appear and take him to Vaikunt. That is HIS Sankalp said in

Geetha about "Anthima Kal Prayana Samaye" I think 8th Volume. I don't

think Ajamil knows anything about Vedhant. There are 2 Dharm Bagavan

has. One Ordinary Dharm and other is Bagavath Dhram. In Bhagavath Dhram

HE there no restriction to make HIS sankalp to any one

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan.----------------------narinder , verily , prayed to Kanha

To allow the Mind to die to thought .........

and krishna Beloved ........... who answers all prayers replied .............

" Die, narinder, die ............ death is the Way

Love and Hate, Life and Death ............

drop your Mind, and know .............

Love is the Way , Silence is the Way, One -ness is the Way

Meditation and Death are not -two.... Meditation is the Way ..........

Go beyond words, nari, go beyond words

Dropping all doubts , and all assertions is the WAY ............................... "

ah, friends, the doings of lifetime after lifetime, came to an end,

came to end, when my Beloved smiled

the desire for knowlrege and knowing died,

when my Beloved smiled !!

so

what can nari say now, and how , pray .........

except to be silent ............

Silence so Blissful, ah !

And from this silence,

now blossom words , that are not words ..............

how can they be words ............. they could only be Silence !!

go beyond words, my friends, go beyond words

MEDITATION is the Way ...............

Meditate, meditate, meditate ,

till the self , in Grace, bestows on you ......

the knowing of the Self !

ah, the Self is ONE, how could it be Two ? AUM

narinder------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari-Dear Vineeta,You have studied the Vedanta, and fully accept 'THIS IS IT', and you fullyaccept and surrender to this 'Ancient Philosophy'.Buddha said, "I point at the moon, and you look at my finger".Your question is,"... why is it so difficult to live that philosophy".The philosophy must be pointing you, guiding you ultimately to Moksha.It is the finger that points. I have studied various traditions overthe decades, and realized by stepping back as it were, they are all pointing tothe same place.I have found that the Bhagvad Geeta is the most connecting of all that I haveread, (that's the best way that I can put it), Arjuna and Shree Krishna comeover so strongly, that the corridors of time seem not to exist.May I offer you these wonderful words:B.G. Ch.7These four kinds of virtuous menDo worship Me, O Arjuna:The distressed, seekers of welfare,Seekers of knowledge, and the wise. (16)Of them, the wise man, e'er steadfast,Devoted to the One, excels;Supremely dear am I to him,And he is dear to Me, as well. (17)All these indeed are exalted,But I see the man of wisdomAs My Self. He, with mind steadfast,Abides in Me, the Supreme Goal. (18)At the end of his many birthsThe wise man takes refuge in Me.He knows: "All is Vasudeva.How very rare is that great soul! (19)With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor-----------------------Hari OmAs always , Vasudev Sathyanarainji reflects, in his latest message, purity and innocence , a hall mark of real sadhak. He reflects here a concern for general !He says:But how many get chance to atleast listen to this? Only hand full. Swamiji has said the words , "Entitled & Eligible" to liberate.Vasudev Sathyanaraiji ! Consider that "entitlement and eligibilty" to be CHANGING from "I am of the world, world is mine"TOI am of God, Only God is mine, Nothing else is mineMERE TO GIRDHAR GOPAL , DOOSARO NA KOIMatter ends. All scriptures, saints , verses of Gitaji, Upanishads, Vedas, get reconciled. All subtle confusions get cleared, all dilemmas go away- the very ego , the very one's SELF changes for ever, never to change again !! Becomes Divine forever.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------Dear Vyas jee,Thank you for your thoughts ..You are right !The Self ( atma) is NOT the doer . Ch. 13/ 30.All human beings are eligible to attain God and have the freedom of choice whether or not to do so.. a freedom granted to them by the Lord.. the freedom called "free-will"The Self is One ................ Ek Omkar ..........there are no two selfs, ah ! when all is Govinda, then ,who is the seeker, and who the sought ......... pray !when all is One,when there is action in action, and inaction in action ..........when both are One , where is the Paradox of being, pray !If yes is No... and No is Yes ............ when in Love they embrace ,where is the paradox , pray !If Silence is the only Reality, beyond all words ............ IF , when the self is known, all becomes known ............IF all the doing culminates in Not-Doing,who is the doer , and who the non-doer, pray .....when dancing stops, where is the dance , and where is the dancer ......... ?? when Mind rests in deep sleep , in the embrace of the Un-known,who is it that is no more, and who, ever and ever, the One ever known ??ah, narinder, the not-knower , does not know .............BUT.......... Krishna Beloved says ............... "I do nothing at all", thus would be the harmonized knower of Truth think, seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, eating, going, sleeping, breathing, Speaking, letting go, seizing, opening and closing his eyes convinced that the senses move among the sense objects " (Gita Shlokas 5/8 and 5/9; Gita 13/ 31, 13/32, and Gita 14/3, )The reward, Kanha promised for Sadhna is freedom from the bonds of Action, yielding good and evil "fruits" ( Gita 9/28) narinder , verily , prayed to Kanha To allow the Mind to die to thought ......... and krishna Beloved ........... who answers all prayers replied ............. " Die, narinder, die ............ death is the WayLove and Hate, Life and Death ............ drop your Mind, and know ............. Love is the Way , Silence is the Way, One -ness is the Way Meditation and Death are not -two.... Meditation is the Way .......... Go beyond words, nari, go beyond words Dropping all doubts , and all assertions is the WAY ............................... "Narinder BhandariPRIOR POSTINGNamaste ,Swamiji saying Saadhan Yoni (a birth for achieving and accomplishing it's goal). Yoni means womb. In any animal womb if a jeeva is born (Except for extreme rare case), that Jeeva does not have intellect. Has only instinct. Such Jeeva born from animal yoni, just very clearly and correctly washes away it` s karmas, only but not it` s vasana (impressions remaining in the mind from past births/action). Going through few animal births by just allowing people to kick it, kill it Etc attains human birth. Due to these animals performing their duties (Say an Ox pulling a cart, Cow giving milk, goat/hen giving meat-service to humans is Saadhana done by these animals) gets right to be born as human called Saadhana Yoni. Only a lady Human Yoni can give room to a Jeeva to continue Saadhana for liberation. As humans people get chance to learn Geetha, Srimath Bagavath, get blessings of Swamiji Etc and seek God. Only as human the liberation is possible said in many Puran and Upanashid as a concept. This concept only Swamiji says "Saadha Yoni" and further Swamiji has said to Sadaks that You are THAT, means you (Human) have all the provisions and body designed in such a manner to think, act, meditate and seek God. Such is birth of human very precious. (Maanusha Dheham Dullabam)As Swamiji said that all humans are entitled and eligible for liberation, Moksha is abosolutely true. But this truth is not known to many. Let it be begger or king or politician, or social server or Ghrahastha, anyone can know this truth and read Geetha and practice dharmic life. Almost human race know that there is a eye opener Bagavath Geetha. But how many get chance to atleast listen to this? Only hand full. Swamiji has said the words , "Entitled & Eligible" to liberate. A student gets eligible and entitled with Scholarship to do Ph.D. But he does not study and goes hay with pleasure of world due to teen age. As human, in childhood play, teenage wonders and pleasures and at old age Chintha Sakthaha Ref:(Bajagovindam) Man can sing Bagavan names, dance of HIS glory, DO Bajan on GOVIND Etc which he is eligible and has all the freedom to do, but does not do. So Punarapi Maranam, Punarapi Jananam---.Virochna and Indra asked Bramaji who they are. Baramaji said, '" you are THAT SAT" go and see in still water. Virochana seeing his own image decided he is God and ended up in trouble. Indra seeing his image knew that it is reflection of his roop but not Swaroop and knew that he should seek Bhraman.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan.-----------------------------Hari OmBeautiful short message by Sophiaji ! Narinderji ! couple of points of correction.... on your message in favour of "dependence" of a human being and " GOD IS THE DOER".No to Both.. All Human beings are Entirely Independent and Eligible to attain God ! andNeither God nor Pure Self are in any way doers (Karta). Jeeva (embodied soul) when he "assumes" himself to be doer, becomes "doer" because , whoever is "bhokta" (enjoyer) is a Karta (doer) . In reality, there is constant activity going on in the matter. Whoever forms "affinity" with it MUST become doer. If Jeeva is not doer, and instead God is doer, entire Karma Yoga becomes redundant. Verses upon verses starting from "karmanye vaadhikaraste" will become redundant.Human life has been given to you only for changing your SVABHAV / Nature / attitude. No other creature except a human being has that capacity/ privilege and competence. I would say even demi-gods (devatas) don't have that capacity. Question of animals etc having that capacity does not arise. Jeeva (human) has complete independence granted to him for changing his ego, his svabhav and turning towards God. He has "conscience" especially given to him, to help him in that.One must find out first as to why human life is stated to be rarest of the rare births? Why even Devatas want to become humans? Why? If a human is toy and everything is pre destined then what is the difference between a human and an animal? Human life is not a BHOG YONI (a birth for enjoyment of pleasures), it is Karma/Yog Yoni (a birth for selfless service / realizing Union). Here you are fully fully independent.Because in human life only you can change your "self" from worldly to divine. I REPEAT IN NO OTHER LIFE FORM YOU CAN DO SO ! Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say: Human life has been given to you only for changing your svabhav.A human is not a puppet like animals. A frog can not change its svabhav but a human can. BG 3:33 quoted refers to others. It says you can't change others. To yourself , you can always. Neither fate, nor Karmas, nor Law of Karma, nor any particular situation or circumstances , nor God,nor Time, nor "assumed" absence of Grace of God, nothing can ever be a hindrance in your turning towards Him. NOTHING- I repeat. Only willingness is needed. Only longing, exclusive longing, for God is needed- as so rightly stated by Sophiaji. PURUSHARTHA is needed. (Not help of Prarabdha).Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N BDear Sadhakas, Namaste!Out of the great respect for Ancient Philosophy, one accepts it and seeminglysurrenders to it, is obviously not sufficient, right Vineetaji? Otherwise thequestion of difficult to live its message will not arise!First of all the message has to be extracted carefully, and then chewed anddigested so it becomes blood, bones, and nerves of Vineeta, then only themessage becomes alive in you and acts. THen Vineeta becomes the excuse for themessage to shine Itself!Let us see the Vedanta's Core message: You are not the body-mind basedautonomous individual endowed with doer-ship. It is mistaken identity, the rootignorance! You are limitless Conscious-Being, Impersonal Intelligence!Everything is YOU, seamless One Consciousness!This is what you are right now,not that you will become! Just realize this truth now.If this message is thoroughly understood, goes through "you", you will feel, andact from this Understanding. In other words, this Understanding will act through"you". as you.Now some practical pointers:1)Don't worry about how difficult it is to live, just relax. You are responsiblefor obtaining understanding only, not doing.2) Meditate regularly on this message: Why do I consider myself as Vineeta, andwhat does it mean? Do I have any proof that I am so and so?3) When you are satisfied that you don't have any proof you are such Vineeta asyou have been taking yourself to be, then give this messaage a chance to act bydis-identifying with Vineeta in thoughts, and deeds. Take Vineeta as instrument,though, and take good care impartially and objectively, it is vehicle to takeyou home. You must visualize Vineeta in YOU as all bodies are in you! Practicethis often.4)Use this forum to clarify doubts, don't shun them away. If you come across aliving teacher or friends who are interested in Truth, discuss and dialogue withthem to erase all doubts. For your information, I have learned more from myTeacher with one on one dialogues then and there than from reading scriptures,or listening to one way talks. Above all Burn with the longing not to rest untilyou unfold the mystery of WHAT you are, the world you live in and God.5) If you are sincere the universe will conspire to give you this Knowledgewhich burns away all conditioning-karmas, and sets you free.Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt------------------------Vineetaji, You ask a very interesting question. It depends on one's own level of "maturity"---a very mis-understood word.Maturity does not mean total Vairagya, it means doing that which is necessary at that point in time, dispaasionately. As in, it does not mean one should give up the society and live in the forest or away from society, it means doing whatever needs to be done with "equanimity", while living in the society. Swami Dayananda has a great example.There is a balloon in the room, and there are 3 people---a 3 yr old child, an 8 yr old child, and an adult----you. The 8 yr old wants to play with the balloon, but the 3 yr old also wants it too. If the 8 yr old takes it, the 3 yr old wants it right away and will also cry. So, the 8 yr old lets him play with it. As soon as the 3 yr old leaves the room, the 8 yr old takes the balloon, until the 3 yr old comes back, and he gives the balloon back to him ! You play with the balloon with the 3 yr old, as if you are also 3 yrs old. When he is out of the room, if invited, you also play with the 8 yr old, as if you are 8 yrs old, and when the two kids are out of the room, you may or may not play with the balloon, even if it is in the room and both the children are out !! The 3 yr old is a balloon-Sansaaree--it means everything to him, and cannot live without it. The 8 yr old is a balloon-Tyagee, who can flit in and out of a balloon-sansaar ! he has done a tyaag but is still attached to it !! You on the other hand is a balloon-Sanyaasee. It means nothing to you, but you can still play with the children without becoming attached to it, and if they are not there, it can remain in a corner. Let us say, you are a Wall Street type, who has now after reading become a Tyagee. You are still attached to the Sansaar, but can get out of it. By constantly doing things dispassionately, you will become a Sanyaasee, while living in the Society, and eventually may teach this to your friends and family. There is an obligation even to a Sanyaasee. The obligation is to teach. It does not die with the person, but is transmitted to posterity, by teaching. According to Swami Dayananda, you must Teach only a "qualified" person, who is desirous of this knowledge, and has become a Tyagee and seeks this knowledge. So, you can do it Vinitaji. And you should. The Wall streeter is also performing only a job. That job should be done appropriately, without trying to fleece or cheat his clients. His / Her advice should be appropriate, and if in the course of time, he or she does mak a lot of money, there are enough charities and educational institutions in the world that can benefit from the largesse of such a proper person, who is bound to help "just and proper" institutions, such as schools for the blind, or education of the disenfranchised, health care of the poor or whatever helps the society. This help should come without any strings. Help for the sake of help only. The Lord passes the wealth through you to others. Durgesh Mankikar,MD-Dear sadhaks, In fewest words,permit narinder to send to youthis missile of love"Go beyond words ".............Let not words become a trap, or a snareAnd the only way to the Stllness of your Being the only way to The Beyond ............................. IsMeditationMeditate, meditate, meditateMeditate twice a day , And if that is not possible; At least , ONCE a day !!!!!AUMnarinder bhandari---PRIOR POSTINGIt is Grace and yet for Grace to be, one must have true longing for God and God aloneSophia-----In the words of Pujya Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the root cause for not actualising the message of the Bhagavan is that we do things against once spiritual progress due to attachment to desire for enjoyment and pleasure. Attachment to desire for enjoyments is the greatest obstacle in Self / God Realization. When there is intense desire for enjoyment of pleasures, then giving it up appears to be very difficult, rather impossible. A spiritual aspirant is totally independent in giving up attachment to enjoyment of pleasures. He can give this attachment up through thought, inquiry and reflection. By thinking / inquirying, he can come to the understanding that he wants happiness that has no shortage or limitation, and that never ends."Yam labdhvaa chaaparam laabham manyate naadhikam tatah;yaasminnisthato na dukhen gurnaapi vichaalyatetam vidhyaadukhsam yog viyogam yogasanjitam. " (Gita 6:22-23)"Having gained which state, he does not reckon any other gain greater than that, and wherein established, he is not shaken even by the greatest affliction.this separation from the assumed union with pain, is called Yoga."Human beings are blessed with immense ability to think, reflect and discriminate between truth and untruth. If he chooses to not think, then it is his mistake and error. It is his lack of prudence and attention to what is important.It is a rule that through the enjoyment of pleasures, the object enjoyed is destroyed and at the same time it leads to the enjoyer's downfall and decline. Just like with passion and desire when one indulges in wealth and material goods then that money is destroyed (used up) and one falls down. When importance of wealth, desire,greed, attachment, inertness, slavery etc. comes in him, then it leads to his downfall. When one indulges in enjoyment of food and eating, not only is food consumed and destroyed, but one takes a fall. The increased desire for enjoying foods and increased attachment to food is a sure downfall.-- Paritala Gopi KrishnaShree Hari Ram RamWecome back, Paritala Gopi Krishnaji. After long time... it is good to hear from you.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram----------------------------Dear Sadak,Because one is stuck by a life pattern by his previous Karma account. A cart puller in most cases live and die just like any ordinary man. A high politician lives and dies evolved in that pattern of life. So each one is placed in a particular form Human, Animal, Bird etc to undergo Karma Bandh, says Bagavan to Yudhava in Yudhava Geetha. We see people has NO chance or chance given due to place of birth or under bad circumstances to say Om Namo Narayana/ Sri Rama/Namashivaya. To say it says that one needs previous Virtue (Puniya Pala) says Sri Vishnu Puran. To get that Virtue one gets it accidentally going to temple or meeting a Guru,or a day in Sat Sangh. From there the Virtue grows multi fold.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan Shree HariRam RamSathyanarayanji, you say "people have NO chance or chance given ... .to say the name of God", but Swamiji says human life is only a "saadhan yoni" and all human beings are entitled and eligible for liberation, God Realization, salvation, moksha etc. Can you share some insights on why possibly differing views ?From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------Attachment to worldly things prevents us from following the true path even when we know it. Through sadhna, satsang, sewa and meditation it is possible to get rid of attachment.Hari Shanker Deo-----------------------Bhagvada Geeta Ch 3/ sh 33." Even a wise man acts in accordance with his own nature; beings will follow their own nature; what can restraint do ?" me thinks, the answer to Vineetas query is contained in the shloka above . At any point of time, we are what we are. We cannot have been otherwise. It is something to do with the paradox of Destiny and Effort. The desiring, wishing and willing, the effort, the Doing and the operation of the immutable Law of karma.... all come into play ................ to compel us to be what we are and act only according to our own nature ( swabhava) at any particular point of time. Actually, what vineeta would , perhaps, like to understand how to go beyond one's limitations of being at a certain time. She might find her answer in a related post by narinder on 01 Feb 09 Re: How can I Remember God and by True Sentiments for Attaining Salvation?AUM narinder bhandari----------Dear Sadhaks,To make your knowing reflected in actionthe way, the only wayISMeditationA s an answer to all the questions that arise in the Mind,One answer, perhaps, that I suggest to youIsPut the question aside for a Momentand instead, let the question be" WHO IS IT THAT SEEKS TO KNOW ?"Begin your search withinBegin with yourselfBegin with yourselfWho you are !Are you the body ?Does the ' body ' say , " I am. " Or, Are you the thought, " I am thisâ€¦. or â€¦that " " I want thisâ€¦ orâ€¦. that " " I donot like this â€¦. Or â€¦ that "Are you the Mind that speaks and seeks all !Or,Are you the intellect passing judgements ?Who, Sir, are you ?Seek within, if you want to know.Sit down in a quiet spot. And, watch your thoughts.Thoughts about the Body,Thoughts about the Mind,Judgements galore !Watch, just watch. Do nothing, but just watch.And then, Allow the primal Energy,Which was manifest in all thoughts,To manifest as it's own awareness !By just watchingAnd, becoming the watcher, the seer, The witness of all.By stopping your chatterAnd becoming silent, just becoming silent ! all is achieved.............. so say the Wise Watch, Become a Witness, a SeerThat is, If you so want ! If you want to enter the space of BlissWhich is your ownWhich does not die If you want your knowingTo be reflected in action, in conduct Ah !This One Answer is valid, though, If you are prepared to ' hear 'With your preoccupation with 'This and That ' set asideThis and That. How and Why.For ONE Moment . This Moment Now.NOW, my dear !!!!AUM narinder bhandari ------PRIOR POSTINGShree Hari|| Ram Ram ||Dear Vineetaji, thanks for asking a very important question.Swamiji Maharaj has explained in detail the answer to this question. in his discourses. The answer to this question is contained in Gitaji also.Six noteworthy points (not necessarily independent) which act as a stopper to spiritual progress:1. We have assumed strong relationship with the persons and the objects of the world, the sense of 'ME' and 'MINE'. Our deepest desire is to draw the pleasure from the world, this is totally misplaced thought since the world does not have the capacity to supply us sustained Sukha (pleasure) because Gitaji is calling this world as a Dukhalya (House of suffering, ref: Gita: 8-15).2. Love of money, the assumption it is the sure ticket to attain ultimate sustaining happiness, people become so sure of it that they are ready to commit a crime to get the money. 3. We have divided our life into two separate compartments, (Adhyatam / Sadhna) part and the activities of the day to day life. It is a common observation that potential spiritual aspirants work hard to gain more and more bookish knowledge (information only) and listen to the many discourses without changing their way of life. This knowledge serves only one purpose - to boost the ego, the person claims, I know and many others do not know. In fact this knowledge proves to be a burden, person is ready to unloaded this information to whoever he can find to listen to.4. The deep attachment to Bhoga (pleasure) and Sangrah (accumulation) does not allow us to have a single pointed-ness or focus for sustained effort for Sadhna (Ref. Gitaji 2/41-44).5. The assumption that Maya is the culprit for our deep attachment, the relationships of the world do not leave us, actually it is just the reverse we do not want to leave the relationships.6. Lack of urgency, the earnestness and sincerity (lagan) to pursue the spiritual path. Meera says "mere to Giridhar Gopal dusra na koi" Nothing else was important to her.|| Ram Ram ||Humble regards,Madan Kaura----------- Hari OmVineetaji ! You have asked a beautiful question. In fact we "know" but we do not"admit" ." Ham jaanate hain par ham maanate nahin". We know that whoever takes birth , dies. But when some one near and dear dies, we start crying. Why? Because inside, the importance of world is still there. We want to become happy, sure, but with worldly things. That then is not ANANDA. We want to gain knowledge, sure, but with books and of outer world. That then is not CHIT. We want to live forever, sure, but with this body. That then is not SAT. Desire for becoming SATCHIDANANDA is there in all of us, but erroneously we want to fulfil that desire with reference to the body/world/worldly things/worldly knowledge. Inside us, the importance of WORLD continues.Our acceptance thus is not firm and well placed. We melt before the worldly enticements. We are not able to relinquish deep rooted desire for "SUKH BHOG and SANGRAH' ( Consumption and accumulation) arising out of body and world.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------Ram Ram,your question, "why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know and have fully accepted that THIS IS IT"it is half true, because you just know THIS IS IT, you haven't accepted it. There are few ifs and buts which still remain.We just collect datas in our brain. We don't implement them. Had you accepted THIS IS IT, there is nothing easier than this. Because you need not do any thing. Yes, if you don't accept THAT IS IT, then it's the toughest thing. I could not understand why people have problem accepting it. Though it is the only truth. Yes it is the only truth.Ashok Goenka--------------------------- Dear Vineeta, many answers to this query have been given ................. shastras can be quoted on them............ and all are true .......................... But the two simple answers which bring Joy to narinder's heart ,............. which make him aware of the paradox of action and destiny , and also lead the resolution of the paradox, narinder gives below............. Ans 1.narinder cannot at this moment quote the exact reference, but he remembers reading two shalokas in the scriptures ..................... ONE: Till the Time comes for you to meditate, you will not be able to do soTWO ( next shaloka ) : BUT, if you think that the Time has not yet come, it will never come even in a thousand aeons ! Answer 2. Nisargadatta Maharaj was once asked the question asto why of all the thousands of disciples of his Guru, only he moved into enlightenment . His reply was , " This is one question that no enlightened person can truly answer. One can only say, ' perhaps my time had come '.....or, ' it was Grace ' ..." ah, dear sadhaks, who think that they are the Doers ( and almost everyone is into Doing, whereas the Truth is that you were never the Doer, only God is . ), all that they can do is to strive and strive ............ the results are only in God's hands ! Bh. Gt. Ch, 2/47 is applicable to one's sadhna too ! All the scriptures guide the Sadhaks as to how to ' DO' ( with what attitude, with what understanding ) so that the Ignorance of their being the Doers dies ............. and, the realisation of the Self or God being the only Doer dawns . It is 'not doing ; that is so peaceful, so blissful. That is why Krishna says , " Just surrender to me "( GT Ch. 18/66) But, surrender , too, is not a Doing..... it is an happening , it is Grace.. ...... ah ! Osho, the enlightened master, has said:, " People ask, what to do to move into Not-doing. There is no way. Yet I shall tell you what to do..................When you read the scriptures, or get the answers from the Knowers of Truth.............. sit down and see the facticity of the truth read or heard. Just close your eyes and look at your own Life ............. watch it ............. weight the various incidents of your Life in the facticity of the answer or the Truth . In that watching, the Doing will, one day, get dropped by itself. The true understanding of the answer or the truth will 'happen' by itself ." AUM narinder bhandari-----My dandavat pranams to all in this forum..... Your question, Vineeta, is a sincere and direct inquiry....what is the difficulty in executing the orders of the ancient sadhus, gurus, etc? I have personally found, in years gone by, that I had to analyze carefully who I took influence from. I say "influence" rather than guidance, because we can be influenced by persons whom we don't necessarily even go to for guidance! We become affected by comments, even when it is sometimes just a passerby, we might overhear a conversation, see something on TV, or, the worst of all, go to a counselor whom we think, possibly, (under illusion) because of the title, "professional" has some edge on giving us instruction. I have found that maturity is a matter of developing our own strength to know that we want to follow the standards of the scriptures, even if it is not popular, not seen as modern, "cool", or socially "what's happening". It is a commitment to ourselves, to the Lord, and not to the changing material world in general.praying my words are not a cause of pain to anyone,Mahalaksmi Dasi----Priy sadhika jiIt is difficult due to lack of practice. Like a right handed person faces difficulty to perform same work with left hand. Although both hands are equal & one have full knowledge & believe one can do it But even then with left hand one feels difficult to do the same thing what one is doing by right hand. It is practice.Thanxraja gurdasani--------------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

May 10, 2009

Dear SadhaksI am new to this forum in the capacity of an initiator of a topic However ihave d to this group for quite a while and I want to congratulate allconcerned in creating this platform to allow people like me to enrich myspiritual spaceI have been a student of Vedanta for the past 10 years and fully accept andsurrender to our highest ancient PhilosophyMy question is why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know andhave fully accepted that THIS IS ITPlease enlighten....vineeta malpani----------------------NEW POSTINGShree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji says - It is difficult to actualize the message of Bhagavad Gita only due to our deep attachment to sense enjoyments! God Realization is not difficult, but giving up attachment to enjoyment and sense pleasures is difficult. The Lord has said in the Gita :"Bhogaisvaryaprasaktaanam tayaapahrtacetasaam

vyavasaayaatmikaa buddhih samaadhau na vidheeyate."

"No mind that is lured by sense-objects and engrossed in sensual enjoyments and glory of material possessions can ever enter, O, Partha, the state of contemplation and divine communion

transcendental." *

He who is intensely attached to sense-enjoyments and acquisition of material things, cannot even conceive or decide on moving towards God. There is no resolve to turn towards God, and when this resolve is not strong enough, where is the question of God-Realization ?

Meera Das, Ram Ram ----------dear sadhaks ,

The

deep desire for the Death of the False in us, the Death of ego, the

Death of the self as it is at the Present Moment, is what makes a

seeker True ! A true Seeker's yearning , pining , thirsting

heart gasping for Breath , as it were !!!!!His food and drink, thereafter, are the words of the Saints and Sages the Knowers of Truth ! His Joy and Happiness lie in the experiences that lead his Mind into Silence Into the No- Mind state !Sometimes, the spiritual ego becomes a real barrier to our spiritual progress ! The thoughts of Maitreya Ishwara below are for narinder a real Joy to meditate on !SPRITUAL EGOthe spiritual ego is subtle, cunningsuperior, inferior and secretive.the spiritual ego develops because egohas to

live somewhere until it dissolves.if you are a seeker of truth, the egoidentifies with your quest and can becomeserious and secretly superior.the inner reality of seekers is neverquite as beautiful as the ideals of their traditionand they decorate their ego so it looks a little nicer.this is a common trap for many seekersand one from which it is difficult to escape.authenticity and playfulness are the antidote.for this you will need support from thosewho are already living in this way.

when the ideal is authenticity, not purity, youare free to be yourself.authenticity and playfulness give you the space to face yourself as you are and to confront your darkness consciously.

this conscious self-encounter brings purity indirectly, without the hypocritical burdenof a spiritually pure ego.

~Maitreya Ishwara

AUM narinder---------PRIOR POSTINGWhy is it so difficult to actualise the message of the Bhagvad Geeta ?Simple ... overwhelming IGNORANCE (lack of clarity) and stubborn INERTIA(hesitance to change)... on top of all the towering notion of ownership onignorance in the name of knowledge and on inertia in the name of volition ...the ego ...Respects.Naga Narayana.------------------------------Dear sadak,A Sadak question: ""why is it (Vedantha) so difficult to live that philosophy when you know and have fully accepted that THIS IS IT"". Because IT is beyond any sense or senses of ordinary human. It is not important whether you fully accept or not. IT is to be known by Gyana and not by any means. To get Gyana Vedhant is only theory, but vedhant has also to be practiced, by Vairag (Determination) -surrender- dissolving 6 bad Gunas,- becoming totally Satvik, which one will face difficulties. Sri Mikeji words ,""Supremely Dear am I to him AND he is dear to me"". What does it mean? No matter how deep you may do anything divine, it does not work that easy. It is HIS (God) sankalp (Wish) that can transform one.Now all know that Yudhistra and 4 brothers were silent in spite of Droupathi being disrobed and maximum insulting words and physical torcher (Removing their crowns, robes etc) for what? To maintain Dharma. To such Dharmic person Arjuna, it was the effort and grace of Bagavan by saying Geetha which transformed him. So however Dharmic, strong, wealthy one may be, it is HIS sankalp that can make wonders. Another Example: What Ajamil Do in his life time? He only called his son Narayana at his last breath. Fire when touched knowingly or unknowingly burns. So the NAM of Narayana said has effect of Vishnu Dhoot appear and take him to Vaikunt. That is HIS Sankalp said in Geetha about "Anthima Kal Prayana Samaye" I think 8th Volume. I don't think Ajamil knows anything about Vedhant. There are 2 Dharm Bagavan has. One Ordinary Dharm and other is Bagavath Dhram. In Bhagavath Dhram HE there no restriction to make HIS sankalp to any oneJai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan.----------------------narinder , verily , prayed to Kanha To allow the Mind to die to thought ......... and krishna Beloved ........... who answers all prayers replied ............. " Die, narinder, die ............ death is the Way Love and Hate, Life and Death ............ drop your Mind, and know ............. Love is the Way , Silence is the Way, One -ness is the Way Meditation and Death are not -two.... Meditation is the Way .......... Go beyond words, nari, go beyond words Dropping all doubts , and all assertions is the WAY ............................... " ah, friends, the doings of lifetime after lifetime, came to an end,came to end, when my Beloved smiledthe desire for knowlrege and knowing died,when my Beloved smiled !! sowhat can nari say now, and how , pray .........except to be silent ............Silence so Blissful, ah !And from this silence,now blossom words , that are not words ..............how can they be words ............. they could only be Silence !!go beyond words, my friends, go beyond words MEDITATION is the Way ...............Meditate, meditate, meditate , till the self , in Grace, bestows on you ......the knowing of the Self !ah, the Self is ONE, how could it be Two ?AUM narinder------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari-Dear Vineeta,You have studied the Vedanta, and fully accept 'THIS IS IT', and you fullyaccept and surrender to this 'Ancient Philosophy'.Buddha said, "I point at the moon, and you look at my finger".Your question is,"... why is it so difficult to live that philosophy".The philosophy must be pointing you, guiding you ultimately to Moksha.It is the finger that points. I have studied various traditions overthe decades, and realized by stepping back as it were, they are all pointing tothe same place.I have found that the Bhagvad Geeta is the most connecting of all that I haveread, (that's the best way that I can put it), Arjuna and Shree Krishna comeover so strongly, that the corridors of time seem not to exist.May I offer you these wonderful words:B.G. Ch.7These four kinds of virtuous menDo worship Me, O Arjuna:The distressed, seekers of welfare,Seekers of knowledge, and the wise. (16)Of them, the wise man, e'er steadfast,Devoted to the One, excels;Supremely dear am I to him,And he is dear to Me, as well. (17)All these indeed are exalted,But I see the man of wisdomAs My Self. He, with mind steadfast,Abides in Me, the Supreme Goal. (18)At the end of his many birthsThe wise man takes refuge in Me.He knows: "All is Vasudeva.How very rare is that great soul! (19)With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor-----------------------Hari OmAs always , Vasudev Sathyanarainji reflects, in his latest message, purity and innocence , a hall mark of real sadhak. He reflects here a concern for general !He says:But how many get chance to atleast listen to this? Only hand full. Swamiji has said the words , "Entitled & Eligible" to liberate.Vasudev Sathyanaraiji ! Consider that "entitlement and eligibilty" to be CHANGING from "I am of the world, world is mine"TOI am of God, Only God is mine, Nothing else is mineMERE TO GIRDHAR GOPAL , DOOSARO NA KOIMatter ends. All scriptures, saints , verses of Gitaji, Upanishads, Vedas, get reconciled. All subtle confusions get cleared, all dilemmas go away- the very ego , the very one's SELF changes for ever, never to change again !! Becomes Divine forever.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------Dear Vyas jee,Thank you for your thoughts ..You are right !The Self ( atma) is NOT the doer . Ch. 13/ 30.All human beings are eligible to attain God and have the freedom of choice whether or not to do so.. a freedom granted to them by the Lord.. the freedom called "free-will"The Self is One ................ Ek Omkar ..........there are no two selfs, ah ! when all is Govinda, then ,who is the seeker, and who the sought ......... pray !when all is One,when there is action in action, and inaction in action ..........when both are One , where is the Paradox of being, pray !If yes is No... and No is Yes ............ when in Love they embrace ,where is the paradox , pray !If Silence is the only Reality, beyond all words ............ IF , when the self is known, all becomes known ............IF all the doing culminates in Not-Doing,who is the doer , and who the non-doer, pray .....when dancing stops, where is the dance , and where is the dancer ......... ?? when Mind rests in deep sleep , in the embrace of the Un-known,who is it that is no more, and who, ever and ever, the One ever known ??ah, narinder, the not-knower , does not know .............BUT.......... Krishna Beloved says ............... "I do nothing at all", thus would be the harmonized knower of Truth think, seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, eating, going, sleeping, breathing, Speaking, letting go, seizing, opening and closing his eyes convinced that the senses move among the sense objects " (Gita Shlokas 5/8 and 5/9; Gita 13/ 31, 13/32, and Gita 14/3, )The reward, Kanha promised for Sadhna is freedom from the bonds of Action, yielding good and evil "fruits" ( Gita 9/28) narinder , verily , prayed to Kanha To allow the Mind to die to thought ......... and krishna Beloved ........... who answers all prayers replied ............. " Die, narinder, die ............ death is the WayLove and Hate, Life and Death ............ drop your Mind, and know ............. Love is the Way , Silence is the Way, One -ness is the Way Meditation and Death are not -two.... Meditation is the Way .......... Go beyond words, nari, go beyond words Dropping all doubts , and all assertions is the WAY ............................... "Narinder BhandariPRIOR POSTINGNamaste ,Swamiji saying Saadhan Yoni (a birth for achieving and accomplishing it's goal). Yoni means womb. In any animal womb if a jeeva is born (Except for extreme rare case), that Jeeva does not have intellect. Has only instinct. Such Jeeva born from animal yoni, just very clearly and correctly washes away it` s karmas, only but not it` s vasana (impressions remaining in the mind from past births/action). Going through few animal births by just allowing people to kick it, kill it Etc attains human birth. Due to these animals performing their duties (Say an Ox pulling a cart, Cow giving milk, goat/hen giving meat-service to humans is Saadhana done by these animals) gets right to be born as human called Saadhana Yoni. Only a lady Human Yoni can give room to a Jeeva to continue Saadhana for liberation. As humans people get chance to learn Geetha, Srimath Bagavath, get blessings of Swamiji Etc and seek God. Only as human the liberation is possible said in many Puran and Upanashid as a concept. This concept only Swamiji says "Saadha Yoni" and further Swamiji has said to Sadaks that You are THAT, means you (Human) have all the provisions and body designed in such a manner to think, act, meditate and seek God. Such is birth of human very precious. (Maanusha Dheham Dullabam)As Swamiji said that all humans are entitled and eligible for liberation, Moksha is abosolutely true. But this truth is not known to many. Let it be begger or king or politician, or social server or Ghrahastha, anyone can know this truth and read Geetha and practice dharmic life. Almost human race know that there is a eye opener Bagavath Geetha. But how many get chance to atleast listen to this? Only hand full. Swamiji has said the words , "Entitled & Eligible" to liberate. A student gets eligible and entitled with Scholarship to do Ph.D. But he does not study and goes hay with pleasure of world due to teen age. As human, in childhood play, teenage wonders and pleasures and at old age Chintha Sakthaha Ref:(Bajagovindam) Man can sing Bagavan names, dance of HIS glory, DO Bajan on GOVIND Etc which he is eligible and has all the freedom to do, but does not do. So Punarapi Maranam, Punarapi Jananam---.Virochna and Indra asked Bramaji who they are. Baramaji said, '" you are THAT SAT" go and see in still water. Virochana seeing his own image decided he is God and ended up in trouble. Indra seeing his image knew that it is reflection of his roop but not Swaroop and knew that he should seek Bhraman.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan.-----------------------------Hari OmBeautiful short message by Sophiaji ! Narinderji ! couple of points of correction.... on your message in favour of "dependence" of a human being and " GOD IS THE DOER".No to Both.. All Human beings are Entirely Independent and Eligible to attain God ! andNeither God nor Pure Self are in any way doers (Karta). Jeeva (embodied soul) when he "assumes" himself to be doer, becomes "doer" because , whoever is "bhokta" (enjoyer) is a Karta (doer) . In reality, there is constant activity going on in the matter. Whoever forms "affinity" with it MUST become doer. If Jeeva is not doer, and instead God is doer, entire Karma Yoga becomes redundant. Verses upon verses starting from "karmanye vaadhikaraste" will become redundant.Human life has been given to you only for changing your SVABHAV / Nature / attitude. No other creature except a human being has that capacity/ privilege and competence. I would say even demi-gods (devatas) don't have that capacity. Question of animals etc having that capacity does not arise. Jeeva (human) has complete independence granted to him for changing his ego, his svabhav and turning towards God. He has "conscience" especially given to him, to help him in that.One must find out first as to why human life is stated to be rarest of the rare births? Why even Devatas want to become humans? Why? If a human is toy and everything is pre destined then what is the difference between a human and an animal? Human life is not a BHOG YONI (a birth for enjoyment of pleasures), it is Karma/Yog Yoni (a birth for selfless service / realizing Union). Here you are fully fully independent.Because in human life only you can change your "self" from worldly to divine. I REPEAT IN NO OTHER LIFE FORM YOU CAN DO SO ! Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say: Human life has been given to you only for changing your svabhav.A human is not a puppet like animals. A frog can not change its svabhav but a human can. BG 3:33 quoted refers to others. It says you can't change others. To yourself , you can always. Neither fate, nor Karmas, nor Law of Karma, nor any particular situation or circumstances , nor God,nor Time, nor "assumed" absence of Grace of God, nothing can ever be a hindrance in your turning towards Him. NOTHING- I repeat. Only willingness is needed. Only longing, exclusive longing, for God is needed- as so rightly stated by Sophiaji. PURUSHARTHA is needed. (Not help of Prarabdha).Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N BDear Sadhakas, Namaste!Out of the great respect for Ancient Philosophy, one accepts it and seeminglysurrenders to it, is obviously not sufficient, right Vineetaji? Otherwise thequestion of difficult to live its message will not arise!First of all the message has to be extracted carefully, and then chewed anddigested so it becomes blood, bones, and nerves of Vineeta, then only themessage becomes alive in you and acts. THen Vineeta becomes the excuse for themessage to shine Itself!Let us see the Vedanta's Core message: You are not the body-mind basedautonomous individual endowed with doer-ship. It is mistaken identity, the rootignorance! You are limitless Conscious-Being, Impersonal Intelligence!Everything is YOU, seamless One Consciousness!This is what you are right now,not that you will become! Just realize this truth now.If this message is thoroughly understood, goes through "you", you will feel, andact from this Understanding. In other words, this Understanding will act through"you". as you.Now some practical pointers:1)Don't worry about how difficult it is to live, just relax. You are responsiblefor obtaining understanding only, not doing.2) Meditate regularly on this message: Why do I consider myself as Vineeta, andwhat does it mean? Do I have any proof that I am so and so?3) When you are satisfied that you don't have any proof you are such Vineeta asyou have been taking yourself to be, then give this messaage a chance to act bydis-identifying with Vineeta in thoughts, and deeds. Take Vineeta as instrument,though, and take good care impartially and objectively, it is vehicle to takeyou home. You must visualize Vineeta in YOU as all bodies are in you! Practicethis often.4)Use this forum to clarify doubts, don't shun them away. If you come across aliving teacher or friends who are interested in Truth, discuss and dialogue withthem to erase all doubts. For your information, I have learned more from myTeacher with one on one dialogues then and there than from reading scriptures,or listening to one way talks. Above all Burn with the longing not to rest untilyou unfold the mystery of WHAT you are, the world you live in and God.5) If you are sincere the universe will conspire to give you this Knowledgewhich burns away all conditioning-karmas, and sets you free.Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt------------------------Vineetaji, You ask a very interesting question. It depends on one's own level of "maturity"---a very mis-understood word.Maturity does not mean total Vairagya, it means doing that which is necessary at that point in time, dispaasionately. As in, it does not mean one should give up the society and live in the forest or away from society, it means doing whatever needs to be done with "equanimity", while living in the society. Swami Dayananda has a great example.There is a balloon in the room, and there are 3 people---a 3 yr old child, an 8 yr old child, and an adult----you. The 8 yr old wants to play with the balloon, but the 3 yr old also wants it too. If the 8 yr old takes it, the 3 yr old wants it right away and will also cry. So, the 8 yr old lets him play with it. As soon as the 3 yr old leaves the room, the 8 yr old takes the balloon, until the 3 yr old comes back, and he gives the balloon back to him ! You play with the balloon with the 3 yr old, as if you are also 3 yrs old. When he is out of the room, if invited, you also play with the 8 yr old, as if you are 8 yrs old, and when the two kids are out of the room, you may or may not play with the balloon, even if it is in the room and both the children are out !! The 3 yr old is a balloon-Sansaaree--it means everything to him, and cannot live without it. The 8 yr old is a balloon-Tyagee, who can flit in and out of a balloon-sansaar ! he has done a tyaag but is still attached to it !! You on the other hand is a balloon-Sanyaasee. It means nothing to you, but you can still play with the children without becoming attached to it, and if they are not there, it can remain in a corner. Let us say, you are a Wall Street type, who has now after reading become a Tyagee. You are still attached to the Sansaar, but can get out of it. By constantly doing things dispassionately, you will become a Sanyaasee, while living in the Society, and eventually may teach this to your friends and family. There is an obligation even to a Sanyaasee. The obligation is to teach. It does not die with the person, but is transmitted to posterity, by teaching. According to Swami Dayananda, you must Teach only a "qualified" person, who is desirous of this knowledge, and has become a Tyagee and seeks this knowledge. So, you can do it Vinitaji. And you should. The Wall streeter is also performing only a job. That job should be done appropriately, without trying to fleece or cheat his clients. His / Her advice should be appropriate, and if in the course of time, he or she does mak a lot of money, there are enough charities and educational institutions in the world that can benefit from the largesse of such a proper person, who is bound to help "just and proper" institutions, such as schools for the blind, or education of the disenfranchised, health care of the poor or whatever helps the society. This help should come without any strings. Help for the sake of help only. The Lord passes the wealth through you to others. Durgesh Mankikar,MD-Dear sadhaks, In fewest words,permit narinder to send to youthis missile of love"Go beyond words ".............Let not words become a trap, or a snareAnd the only way to the Stllness of your Being the only way to The Beyond ............................. IsMeditationMeditate, meditate, meditateMeditate twice a day , And if that is not possible; At least , ONCE a day !!!!!AUMnarinder bhandari---PRIOR POSTINGIt is Grace and yet for Grace to be, one must have true longing for God and God aloneSophia-----In the words of Pujya Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the root cause for not actualising the message of the Bhagavan is that we do things against once spiritual progress due to attachment to desire for enjoyment and pleasure. Attachment to desire for enjoyments is the greatest obstacle in Self / God Realization. When there is intense desire for enjoyment of pleasures, then giving it up appears to be very difficult, rather impossible. A spiritual aspirant is totally independent in giving up attachment to enjoyment of pleasures. He can give this attachment up through thought, inquiry and reflection. By thinking / inquirying, he can come to the understanding that he wants happiness that has no shortage or limitation, and that never ends."Yam labdhvaa chaaparam laabham manyate naadhikam tatah;yaasminnisthato na dukhen gurnaapi vichaalyatetam vidhyaadukhsam yog viyogam yogasanjitam. " (Gita 6:22-23)"Having gained which state, he does not reckon any other gain greater than that, and wherein established, he is not shaken even by the greatest affliction.this separation from the assumed union with pain, is called Yoga."Human beings are blessed with immense ability to think, reflect and discriminate between truth and untruth. If he chooses to not think, then it is his mistake and error. It is his lack of prudence and attention to what is important.It is a rule that through the enjoyment of pleasures, the object enjoyed is destroyed and at the same time it leads to the enjoyer's downfall and decline. Just like with passion and desire when one indulges in wealth and material goods then that money is destroyed (used up) and one falls down. When importance of wealth, desire,greed, attachment, inertness, slavery etc. comes in him, then it leads to his downfall. When one indulges in enjoyment of food and eating, not only is food consumed and destroyed, but one takes a fall. The increased desire for enjoying foods and increased attachment to food is a sure downfall.-- Paritala Gopi KrishnaShree Hari Ram RamWecome back, Paritala Gopi Krishnaji. After long time... it is good to hear from you.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram----------------------------Dear Sadak,Because one is stuck by a life pattern by his previous Karma account. A cart puller in most cases live and die just like any ordinary man. A high politician lives and dies evolved in that pattern of life. So each one is placed in a particular form Human, Animal, Bird etc to undergo Karma Bandh, says Bagavan to Yudhava in Yudhava Geetha. We see people has NO chance or chance given due to place of birth or under bad circumstances to say Om Namo Narayana/ Sri Rama/Namashivaya. To say it says that one needs previous Virtue (Puniya Pala) says Sri Vishnu Puran. To get that Virtue one gets it accidentally going to temple or meeting a Guru,or a day in Sat Sangh. From there the Virtue grows multi fold.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan Shree HariRam RamSathyanarayanji, you say "people have NO chance or chance given ... .to say the name of God", but Swamiji says human life is only a "saadhan yoni" and all human beings are entitled and eligible for liberation, God Realization, salvation, moksha etc. Can you share some insights on why possibly differing views ?From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------Attachment to worldly things prevents us from following the true path even when we know it. Through sadhna, satsang, sewa and meditation it is possible to get rid of attachment.Hari Shanker Deo-----------------------Bhagvada Geeta Ch 3/ sh 33." Even a wise man acts in accordance with his own nature; beings will follow their own nature; what can restraint do ?" me thinks, the answer to Vineetas query is contained in the shloka above . At any point of time, we are what we are. We cannot have been otherwise. It is something to do with the paradox of Destiny and Effort. The desiring, wishing and willing, the effort, the Doing and the operation of the immutable Law of karma.... all come into play ................ to compel us to be what we are and act only according to our own nature ( swabhava) at any particular point of time. Actually, what vineeta would , perhaps, like to understand how to go beyond one's limitations of being at a certain time. She might find her answer in a related post by narinder on 01 Feb 09 Re: How can I Remember God and by True Sentiments for Attaining Salvation?AUM narinder bhandari----------Dear Sadhaks,To make your knowing reflected in actionthe way, the only wayISMeditationA s an answer to all the questions that arise in the Mind,One answer, perhaps, that I suggest to youIsPut the question aside for a Momentand instead, let the question be" WHO IS IT THAT SEEKS TO KNOW ?"Begin your search withinBegin with yourselfBegin with yourselfWho you are !Are you the body ?Does the ' body ' say , " I am. " Or, Are you the thought, " I am thisâ€¦. or â€¦that " " I want thisâ€¦ orâ€¦. that " " I donot like this â€¦. Or â€¦ that "Are you the Mind that speaks and seeks all !Or,Are you the intellect passing judgements ?Who, Sir, are you ?Seek within, if you want to know.Sit down in a quiet spot. And, watch your thoughts.Thoughts about the Body,Thoughts about the Mind,Judgements galore !Watch, just watch. Do nothing, but just watch.And then, Allow the primal Energy,Which was manifest in all thoughts,To manifest as it's own awareness !By just watchingAnd, becoming the watcher, the seer, The witness of all.By stopping your chatterAnd becoming silent, just becoming silent ! all is achieved.............. so say the Wise Watch, Become a Witness, a SeerThat is, If you so want ! If you want to enter the space of BlissWhich is your ownWhich does not die If you want your knowingTo be reflected in action, in conduct Ah !This One Answer is valid, though, If you are prepared to ' hear 'With your preoccupation with 'This and That ' set asideThis and That. How and Why.For ONE Moment . This Moment Now.NOW, my dear !!!!AUM narinder bhandari ------PRIOR POSTINGShree Hari|| Ram Ram ||Dear Vineetaji, thanks for asking a very important question.Swamiji Maharaj has explained in detail the answer to this question. in his discourses. The answer to this question is contained in Gitaji also.Six noteworthy points (not necessarily independent) which act as a stopper to spiritual progress:1. We have assumed strong relationship with the persons and the objects of the world, the sense of 'ME' and 'MINE'. Our deepest desire is to draw the pleasure from the world, this is totally misplaced thought since the world does not have the capacity to supply us sustained Sukha (pleasure) because Gitaji is calling this world as a Dukhalya (House of suffering, ref: Gita: 8-15).2. Love of money, the assumption it is the sure ticket to attain ultimate sustaining happiness, people become so sure of it that they are ready to commit a crime to get the money. 3. We have divided our life into two separate compartments, (Adhyatam / Sadhna) part and the activities of the day to day life. It is a common observation that potential spiritual aspirants work hard to gain more and more bookish knowledge (information only) and listen to the many discourses without changing their way of life. This knowledge serves only one purpose - to boost the ego, the person claims, I know and many others do not know. In fact this knowledge proves to be a burden, person is ready to unloaded this information to whoever he can find to listen to.4. The deep attachment to Bhoga (pleasure) and Sangrah (accumulation) does not allow us to have a single pointed-ness or focus for sustained effort for Sadhna (Ref. Gitaji 2/41-44).5. The assumption that Maya is the culprit for our deep attachment, the relationships of the world do not leave us, actually it is just the reverse we do not want to leave the relationships.6. Lack of urgency, the earnestness and sincerity (lagan) to pursue the spiritual path. Meera says "mere to Giridhar Gopal dusra na koi" Nothing else was important to her.|| Ram Ram ||Humble regards,Madan Kaura----------- Hari OmVineetaji ! You have asked a beautiful question. In fact we "know" but we do not"admit" ." Ham jaanate hain par ham maanate nahin". We know that whoever takes birth , dies. But when some one near and dear dies, we start crying. Why? Because inside, the importance of world is still there. We want to become happy, sure, but with worldly things. That then is not ANANDA. We want to gain knowledge, sure, but with books and of outer world. That then is not CHIT. We want to live forever, sure, but with this body. That then is not SAT. Desire for becoming SATCHIDANANDA is there in all of us, but erroneously we want to fulfil that desire with reference to the body/world/worldly things/worldly knowledge. Inside us, the importance of WORLD continues.Our acceptance thus is not firm and well placed. We melt before the worldly enticements. We are not able to relinquish deep rooted desire for "SUKH BHOG and SANGRAH' ( Consumption and accumulation) arising out of body and world.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------Ram Ram,your question, "why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know and have fully accepted that THIS IS IT"it is half true, because you just know THIS IS IT, you haven't accepted it. There are few ifs and buts which still remain.We just collect datas in our brain. We don't implement them. Had you accepted THIS IS IT, there is nothing easier than this. Because you need not do any thing. Yes, if you don't accept THAT IS IT, then it's the toughest thing. I could not understand why people have problem accepting it. Though it is the only truth. Yes it is the only truth.Ashok Goenka--------------------------- Dear Vineeta, many answers to this query have been given ................. shastras can be quoted on them............ and all are true .......................... But the two simple answers which bring Joy to narinder's heart ,............. which make him aware of the paradox of action and destiny , and also lead the resolution of the paradox, narinder gives below............. Ans 1.narinder cannot at this moment quote the exact reference, but he remembers reading two shalokas in the scriptures ..................... ONE: Till the Time comes for you to meditate, you will not be able to do soTWO ( next shaloka ) : BUT, if you think that the Time has not yet come, it will never come even in a thousand aeons ! Answer 2. Nisargadatta Maharaj was once asked the question asto why of all the thousands of disciples of his Guru, only he moved into enlightenment . His reply was , " This is one question that no enlightened person can truly answer. One can only say, ' perhaps my time had come '.....or, ' it was Grace ' ..." ah, dear sadhaks, who think that they are the Doers ( and almost everyone is into Doing, whereas the Truth is that you were never the Doer, only God is . ), all that they can do is to strive and strive ............ the results are only in God's hands ! Bh. Gt. Ch, 2/47 is applicable to one's sadhna too ! All the scriptures guide the Sadhaks as to how to ' DO' ( with what attitude, with what understanding ) so that the Ignorance of their being the Doers dies ............. and, the realisation of the Self or God being the only Doer dawns . It is 'not doing ; that is so peaceful, so blissful. That is why Krishna says , " Just surrender to me "( GT Ch. 18/66) But, surrender , too, is not a Doing..... it is an happening , it is Grace.. ...... ah ! Osho, the enlightened master, has said:, " People ask, what to do to move into Not-doing. There is no way. Yet I shall tell you what to do..................When you read the scriptures, or get the answers from the Knowers of Truth.............. sit down and see the facticity of the truth read or heard. Just close your eyes and look at your own Life ............. watch it ............. weight the various incidents of your Life in the facticity of the answer or the Truth . In that watching, the Doing will, one day, get dropped by itself. The true understanding of the answer or the truth will 'happen' by itself ." AUM narinder bhandari-----My dandavat pranams to all in this forum..... Your question, Vineeta, is a sincere and direct inquiry....what is the difficulty in executing the orders of the ancient sadhus, gurus, etc? I have personally found, in years gone by, that I had to analyze carefully who I took influence from. I say "influence" rather than guidance, because we can be influenced by persons whom we don't necessarily even go to for guidance! We become affected by comments, even when it is sometimes just a passerby, we might overhear a conversation, see something on TV, or, the worst of all, go to a counselor whom we think, possibly, (under illusion) because of the title, "professional" has some edge on giving us instruction. I have found that maturity is a matter of developing our own strength to know that we want to follow the standards of the scriptures, even if it is not popular, not seen as modern, "cool", or socially "what's happening". It is a commitment to ourselves, to the Lord, and not to the changing material world in general.praying my words are not a cause of pain to anyone,Mahalaksmi Dasi----Priy sadhika jiIt is difficult due to lack of practice. Like a right handed person faces difficulty to perform same work with left hand. Although both hands are equal & one have full knowledge & believe one can do it But even then with left hand one feels difficult to do the same thing what one is doing by right hand. It is practice.Thanxraja gurdasani--------------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

May 11, 2009

Dear SadhaksI am new to this forum in the capacity of an initiator of a topic However ihave d to this group for quite a while and I want to congratulate allconcerned in creating this platform to allow people like me to enrich myspiritual spaceI have been a student of Vedanta for the past 10 years and fully accept andsurrender to our highest ancient PhilosophyMy question is why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know andhave fully accepted that THIS IS ITPlease enlighten....vineeta malpani----------------------NEW POSTINGNamasteTo answer your question, the message of the Gita is an

ideal, it is what one strives to but it is not for everyday

practicality of life. There are many deviations in human personality

given the geneology, environment that one is socialized in, personality

traits etc. Therefore, this is a set of principles that can transform

one if applied. However, one has to transform ones way of seeing,

thinking and living for this to bear fruit, for this to occur

consistent efforts have to be made but it is not something that can be

internalized and practiced in one shot. There are many circumstances

that in some instances force one to act contrary to what is taught.Best RegardsDev Maharaj------------------------Hari OmSadhak

Narinder's views about "spiritual ego" are worth reading. Messages like

this are beneficial and take forward Satsanga. The real "spiritual ego"

however continues to be "insistence on the methodology undertaken by

Sadhak himself" - say meditation, or karma yoga etc. Real Sadhak will

never say- "this method is only method" !But again he ought to be very careful in expressions. Let it not flow unless when in poetic mood. Consider the opening remarks:Quote

The deep desire for the Death of the False in us, the Death of ego, the

Death of the self as it is at the Present Moment, is what makes a

seeker True !UnquoteNarinderji ! There is no false existing

in us. Don't "accept" the existence of "False" in you. No amount of

efforts/meditation/knowledge/sadhana can remove false/faults from you ,

if you accept them to be with you and then try to remove it. Reason:

The very acceptance is faulty.I hope my pin pointing subtle

areas for your benefit and for bringing out the truth will be taken in

right spirit by you. We all are here in this Satsanga to advance

spiritually.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ----------------------Dear vineetaji: Namaste

It is an excellent question why we cannot accept the world "AS IT IS"

and move on. My understanding is also very simple based on a simple

example. . Let us say a group of three people have seen a rose bush

with lot of beautiful flowers. One persons get elated looking at it

and wants to enjoy the beauty for ever looking from a distance,

another looks at the thorns and feels dejected that he cannot get them

easily and take them home and another does not even recognize that it

existed on his way. The object is the same but gives rise to three

different reactions. Why? Because each one projected his own mind on to

the rose bush from his past impressions of roses. World is what we

project our impressions on it and that is the problem why we cannot

follow Gita's message although we understood it as a simple philosophy.

In simple terms the world is what we want to it look like. The first

one who appreciated the beauty from a distance is the one whom we

should follow initially in our pursuit of looking at the world as it

IS. Later on in the practice, we should develop dispassion in the

sense whether we see this beautiful rose bush or heap of garbage it

should not evoke any positive or negative reaction. Equanimity is

central theme of Gita in my simple understanding and can be practiced

easily if we put our mind to it every day, every minute of existence.

May the wisdom of looking at the 'World AS IT IS' prevail to reach the state of Bliss we all seek.

B.Vempaty

---------------------Dear Sadhak

Even Vedantic truths are revealed in this Bhagvata Geeta.For more

association with Vedant join Vedantic Society for books,lectures and

other programs.This discussion will surely help you.Read the example of

Mahatma Gandhi. He found reliefs after reading and reciting Bhagvat

Geeta every day.I read Chapter XV of Gita every day.Have faith,devotion

and concistency in reading Bhagvata Geeta and you will surely

experience difference in your life.Read all books written by

Ramakrishna Paramhansa and Swami Vivekanand besides participating in

this group discussion.

Wishing all success to you

ï¿½

Truly yours

ï¿½

S S Bhatt---------------------Dear sadaks,

One knows THIS IS IT, cannot experience. One knows air craft/train/bus. Can it

be driven until trained. Semi trained also risky/dangerous. One knows petrol,

but can it be got, without acquiring through knowledge how to get from earth

and it requires team work.

Now that you know GOD exits and man has all the ability to become Godly. But

knowledge(Gyana), skill (sadana), Vairag (Determination) does not happen though

the mind tells one should become GODLY. To gain unworthy fame one works day and

night. To gain infinity it is not easy.

In collage one studies but practical is vital to get through the exams. To get

VITAL what sacrifice one does?

Example: Sidharam at teen age had strong desire (desire tool used here) to see

Bagavan Shiva. He was told serveral ways to attain Godlyness, but it failed. He

decided to jump off a cliff as he thought his human birth is waste. He jumped,

but suddenly he realized some one lifting him off from the fall. On the cliff

top he was placed and saw Bagavan Shiva and Parvathi. Visit HIS jeeva samadhi 2

Km from Sholapur.

Baktha Gora cut his both hands for a promise on Bagavan Vital. Bagavan came in

disguise and worked as servant in Gora house and at end he realized it was Sri

Krishna. To get that status one need to renounce totally and surrender. Bagavan

waited until Sidharam jumped off and Gora cut his hands. Sadaks note Bagavan

never came just before jumping or cutting hands. Action done. The untimate

Karma pala (renouncing action) bears the experiencing GOD.

Bagavan said to be experienced by Gyana, which is in Sabdha roop ( devine Sound

mentioned in scripts) Ref: Upanashid and Bagavath.

Sotra/Mantra: 1) Hare Rama Hare Krishna. 2) Sri rama rama Ramethi- Ramerama

Mano rame. Over period of decades sounds change like people character change.

Children names are called Pinky and Tinky. Varun or Marun.

Keethana or Keethi. These sounds have no divine touch. Those days, they called

Krishna/Rama/Govinda/ Mukundha/Purushothama. Slowly it changed to Krishn, Ram/

Govind, Mukundh, Purushoth. Each Sabdha (sound) has specific effect. To day

still worse. If one does Havon Kundh/Yagna, it can be noted the sound,

Rama/Krishna/Kesava Etc. Earlier I posted the important of the letters

"a", which is today left and called Ram. Got accustomed (Deep Vasana

of Sound) one does not want to change and says it is Bavana importance. For

Rama (God sake) sake, for HIS love sake can we change? Then how it is possible

to elevate to infinity with hidden ego/not recognisable ego.

Bear with me sadaks.

B.Sathyanarayan-------------------it is because siddhant is an ideal condition whereas in practical

there are several deviations which distract us.we always see others

actions & try to imitate or follow. it is instinctive since

childhood. therefore it is a saying that parvarish mus be good. people

living in ashrams follow their gurus and make their life. similarly in

home also child follow maata pita.

In manas prabhuji says GUN YAH UBHAY NA DEKHIYE DEKHIYA SO ABIBEK. Raja Gurdasani-----------------------PRIOR POSTINGShree HariRam Ram Swamiji says - It is difficult to actualize the message of Bhagavad Gita only due to our deep attachment to sense enjoyments! God Realization is not difficult, but giving up attachment to enjoyment and sense pleasures is difficult. The Lord has said in the Gita :"Bhogaisvaryaprasaktaanam tayaapahrtacetasaamvyavasaayaatmikaa buddhih samaadhau na vidheeyate.""No mind that is lured by sense-objects and engrossed in sensual enjoyments and glory of material possessions can ever enter, O, Partha, the state of contemplation and divine communiontranscendental." *He who is intensely attached to sense-enjoyments and acquisition of material things, cannot even conceive or decide on moving towards God. There is no resolve to turn towards God, and when this resolve is not strong enough, where is the question of God-Realization ?Meera Das, Ram Ram----------dear sadhaks , The deep desire for the Death of the False in us, the Death of ego, the Death of the self as it is at the Present Moment, is what makes a seeker True ! A true Seeker's yearning , pining , thirsting heart gasping for Breath , as it were !!!!!His food and drink, thereafter, are the words of the Saints and Sages the Knowers of Truth !His Joy and Happiness lie in the experiences that lead his Mind into Silence Into the No- Mind state !Sometimes, the spiritual ego becomes a real barrier to our spiritual progress ! The thoughts of Maitreya Ishwara below are for narinder a real Joy to meditate on !SPRITUAL EGOthe spiritual ego is subtle, cunningsuperior, inferior and secretive.the spiritual ego develops because egohas to live somewhere until it dissolves.if you are a seeker of truth, the egoidentifies with your quest and can becomeserious and secretly superior.the inner reality of seekers is neverquite as beautiful as the ideals of their traditionand they decorate their ego so it looks a little nicer.this is a common trap for many seekersand one from which it is difficult to escape.authenticity and playfulness are the antidote.for this you will need support from thosewho are already living in this way. when the ideal is authenticity, not purity, youare free to be yourself.authenticity and playfulness give you thespace to face yourself as you are and toconfront your darkness consciously.this conscious self-encounter brings purityindirectly, without the hypocritical burdenof a spiritually pure ego.~Maitreya Ishwara AUM narinder ---------PRIOR POSTINGWhy is it so difficult to actualise the message of the Bhagvad Geeta ?Simple ... overwhelming IGNORANCE (lack of clarity) and stubborn INERTIA(hesitance to change)... on top of all the towering notion of ownership onignorance in the name of knowledge and on inertia in the name of volition ...the ego ...Respects.Naga Narayana.------------------------------Dear sadak,A Sadak question: ""why is it (Vedantha) so difficult to live that philosophy when you know and have fully accepted that THIS IS IT"". Because IT is beyond any sense or senses of ordinary human. It is not important whether you fully accept or not. IT is to be known by Gyana and not by any means. To get Gyana Vedhant is only theory, but vedhant has also to be practiced, by Vairag (Determination) -surrender- dissolving 6 bad Gunas,- becoming totally Satvik, which one will face difficulties. Sri Mikeji words ,""Supremely Dear am I to him AND he is dear to me"". What does it mean? No matter how deep you may do anything divine, it does not work that easy. It is HIS (God) sankalp (Wish) that can transform one.Now all know that Yudhistra and 4 brothers were silent in spite of Droupathi being disrobed and maximum insulting words and physical torcher (Removing their crowns, robes etc) for what? To maintain Dharma. To such Dharmic person Arjuna, it was the effort and grace of Bagavan by saying Geetha which transformed him. So however Dharmic, strong, wealthy one may be, it is HIS sankalp that can make wonders. Another Example: What Ajamil Do in his life time? He only called his son Narayana at his last breath. Fire when touched knowingly or unknowingly burns. So the NAM of Narayana said has effect of Vishnu Dhoot appear and take him to Vaikunt. That is HIS Sankalp said in Geetha about "Anthima Kal Prayana Samaye" I think 8th Volume. I don't think Ajamil knows anything about Vedhant. There are 2 Dharm Bagavan has. One Ordinary Dharm and other is Bagavath Dhram. In Bhagavath Dhram HE there no restriction to make HIS sankalp to any oneJai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan.----------------------narinder , verily , prayed to Kanha To allow the Mind to die to thought ......... and krishna Beloved ........... who answers all prayers replied ............. " Die, narinder, die ............ death is the WayLove and Hate, Life and Death ............ drop your Mind, and know ............. Love is the Way , Silence is the Way, One -ness is the Way Meditation and Death are not -two.... Meditation is the Way .......... Go beyond words, nari, go beyond words Dropping all doubts , and all assertions is the WAY ............................... " ah, friends, the doings of lifetime after lifetime, came to an end,came to end, when my Beloved smiledthe desire for knowlrege and knowing died,when my Beloved smiled !!sowhat can nari say now, and how , pray .........except to be silent ............Silence so Blissful, ah !And from this silence,now blossom words , that are not words ..............how can they be words ............. they could only be Silence !!go beyond words, my friends, go beyond words MEDITATION is the Way ...............Meditate, meditate, meditate , till the self , in Grace, bestows on you ......the knowing of the Self !ah, the Self is ONE, how could it be Two ?AUM narinder------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari-Dear Vineeta,You have studied the Vedanta, and fully accept 'THIS IS IT', and you fullyaccept and surrender to this 'Ancient Philosophy'.Buddha said, "I point at the moon, and you look at my finger".Your question is,"... why is it so difficult to live that philosophy".The philosophy must be pointing you, guiding you ultimately to Moksha.It is the finger that points. I have studied various traditions overthe decades, and realized by stepping back as it were, they are all pointing tothe same place.I have found that the Bhagvad Geeta is the most connecting of all that I haveread, (that's the best way that I can put it), Arjuna and Shree Krishna comeover so strongly, that the corridors of time seem not to exist.May I offer you these wonderful words:B.G. Ch.7These four kinds of virtuous menDo worship Me, O Arjuna:The distressed, seekers of welfare,Seekers of knowledge, and the wise. (16)Of them, the wise man, e'er steadfast,Devoted to the One, excels;Supremely dear am I to him,And he is dear to Me, as well. (17)All these indeed are exalted,But I see the man of wisdomAs My Self. He, with mind steadfast,Abides in Me, the Supreme Goal. (18)At the end of his many birthsThe wise man takes refuge in Me.He knows: "All is Vasudeva.How very rare is that great soul! (19)With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor-----------------------Hari OmAs always , Vasudev Sathyanarainji reflects, in his latest message, purity and innocence , a hall mark of real sadhak. He reflects here a concern for general !He says:But how many get chance to atleast listen to this? Only hand full. Swamiji has said the words , "Entitled & Eligible" to liberate.Vasudev Sathyanaraiji ! Consider that "entitlement and eligibilty" to be CHANGING from "I am of the world, world is mine"TOI am of God, Only God is mine, Nothing else is mineMERE TO GIRDHAR GOPAL , DOOSARO NA KOIMatter ends. All scriptures, saints , verses of Gitaji, Upanishads, Vedas, get reconciled. All subtle confusions get cleared, all dilemmas go away- the very ego , the very one's SELF changes for ever, never to change again !! Becomes Divine forever.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------Dear Vyas jee,Thank you for your thoughts ..You are right !The Self ( atma) is NOT the doer . Ch. 13/ 30.All human beings are eligible to attain God and have the freedom of choice whether or not to do so.. a freedom granted to them by the Lord.. the freedom called "free-will"The Self is One ................ Ek Omkar ..........there are no two selfs, ah ! when all is Govinda, then ,who is the seeker, and who the sought ......... pray !when all is One,when there is action in action, and inaction in action ..........when both are One , where is the Paradox of being, pray !If yes is No... and No is Yes ............ when in Love they embrace ,where is the paradox , pray !If Silence is the only Reality, beyond all words ............ IF , when the self is known, all becomes known ............IF all the doing culminates in Not-Doing,who is the doer , and who the non-doer, pray .....when dancing stops, where is the dance , and where is the dancer ......... ?? when Mind rests in deep sleep , in the embrace of the Un-known,who is it that is no more, and who, ever and ever, the One ever known ??ah, narinder, the not-knower , does not know .............BUT.......... Krishna Beloved says ............... "I do nothing at all", thus would be the harmonized knower of Truth think, seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, eating, going, sleeping, breathing, Speaking, letting go, seizing, opening and closing his eyes convinced that the senses move among the sense objects " (Gita Shlokas 5/8 and 5/9; Gita 13/ 31, 13/32, and Gita 14/3, )The reward, Kanha promised for Sadhna is freedom from the bonds of Action, yielding good and evil "fruits" ( Gita 9/28) narinder , verily , prayed to Kanha To allow the Mind to die to thought ......... and krishna Beloved ........... who answers all prayers replied ............. " Die, narinder, die ............ death is the WayLove and Hate, Life and Death ............ drop your Mind, and know ............. Love is the Way , Silence is the Way, One -ness is the Way Meditation and Death are not -two.... Meditation is the Way .......... Go beyond words, nari, go beyond words Dropping all doubts , and all assertions is the WAY ............................... "Narinder BhandariPRIOR POSTINGNamaste ,Swamiji saying Saadhan Yoni (a birth for achieving and accomplishing it's goal). Yoni means womb. In any animal womb if a jeeva is born (Except for extreme rare case), that Jeeva does not have intellect. Has only instinct. Such Jeeva born from animal yoni, just very clearly and correctly washes away it` s karmas, only but not it` s vasana (impressions remaining in the mind from past births/action). Going through few animal births by just allowing people to kick it, kill it Etc attains human birth. Due to these animals performing their duties (Say an Ox pulling a cart, Cow giving milk, goat/hen giving meat-service to humans is Saadhana done by these animals) gets right to be born as human called Saadhana Yoni. Only a lady Human Yoni can give room to a Jeeva to continue Saadhana for liberation. As humans people get chance to learn Geetha, Srimath Bagavath, get blessings of Swamiji Etc and seek God. Only as human the liberation is possible said in many Puran and Upanashid as a concept. This concept only Swamiji says "Saadha Yoni" and further Swamiji has said to Sadaks that You are THAT, means you (Human) have all the provisions and body designed in such a manner to think, act, meditate and seek God. Such is birth of human very precious. (Maanusha Dheham Dullabam)As Swamiji said that all humans are entitled and eligible for liberation, Moksha is abosolutely true. But this truth is not known to many. Let it be begger or king or politician, or social server or Ghrahastha, anyone can know this truth and read Geetha and practice dharmic life. Almost human race know that there is a eye opener Bagavath Geetha. But how many get chance to atleast listen to this? Only hand full. Swamiji has said the words , "Entitled & Eligible" to liberate. A student gets eligible and entitled with Scholarship to do Ph.D. But he does not study and goes hay with pleasure of world due to teen age. As human, in childhood play, teenage wonders and pleasures and at old age Chintha Sakthaha Ref:(Bajagovindam) Man can sing Bagavan names, dance of HIS glory, DO Bajan on GOVIND Etc which he is eligible and has all the freedom to do, but does not do. So Punarapi Maranam, Punarapi Jananam---.Virochna and Indra asked Bramaji who they are. Baramaji said, '" you are THAT SAT" go and see in still water. Virochana seeing his own image decided he is God and ended up in trouble. Indra seeing his image knew that it is reflection of his roop but not Swaroop and knew that he should seek Bhraman.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan.-----------------------------Hari OmBeautiful short message by Sophiaji ! Narinderji ! couple of points of correction.... on your message in favour of "dependence" of a human being and " GOD IS THE DOER".No to Both.. All Human beings are Entirely Independent and Eligible to attain God ! andNeither God nor Pure Self are in any way doers (Karta). Jeeva (embodied soul) when he "assumes" himself to be doer, becomes "doer" because , whoever is "bhokta" (enjoyer) is a Karta (doer) . In reality, there is constant activity going on in the matter. Whoever forms "affinity" with it MUST become doer. If Jeeva is not doer, and instead God is doer, entire Karma Yoga becomes redundant. Verses upon verses starting from "karmanye vaadhikaraste" will become redundant.Human life has been given to you only for changing your SVABHAV / Nature / attitude. No other creature except a human being has that capacity/ privilege and competence. I would say even demi-gods (devatas) don't have that capacity. Question of animals etc having that capacity does not arise. Jeeva (human) has complete independence granted to him for changing his ego, his svabhav and turning towards God. He has "conscience" especially given to him, to help him in that.One must find out first as to why human life is stated to be rarest of the rare births? Why even Devatas want to become humans? Why? If a human is toy and everything is pre destined then what is the difference between a human and an animal? Human life is not a BHOG YONI (a birth for enjoyment of pleasures), it is Karma/Yog Yoni (a birth for selfless service / realizing Union). Here you are fully fully independent.Because in human life only you can change your "self" from worldly to divine. I REPEAT IN NO OTHER LIFE FORM YOU CAN DO SO ! Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say: Human life has been given to you only for changing your svabhav.A human is not a puppet like animals. A frog can not change its svabhav but a human can. BG 3:33 quoted refers to others. It says you can't change others. To yourself , you can always. Neither fate, nor Karmas, nor Law of Karma, nor any particular situation or circumstances , nor God,nor Time, nor "assumed" absence of Grace of God, nothing can ever be a hindrance in your turning towards Him. NOTHING- I repeat. Only willingness is needed. Only longing, exclusive longing, for God is needed- as so rightly stated by Sophiaji. PURUSHARTHA is needed. (Not help of Prarabdha).Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N BDear Sadhakas, Namaste!Out of the great respect for Ancient Philosophy, one accepts it and seeminglysurrenders to it, is obviously not sufficient, right Vineetaji? Otherwise thequestion of difficult to live its message will not arise!First of all the message has to be extracted carefully, and then chewed anddigested so it becomes blood, bones, and nerves of Vineeta, then only themessage becomes alive in you and acts. THen Vineeta becomes the excuse for themessage to shine Itself!Let us see the Vedanta's Core message: You are not the body-mind basedautonomous individual endowed with doer-ship. It is mistaken identity, the rootignorance! You are limitless Conscious-Being, Impersonal Intelligence!Everything is YOU, seamless One Consciousness!This is what you are right now,not that you will become! Just realize this truth now.If this message is thoroughly understood, goes through "you", you will feel, andact from this Understanding. In other words, this Understanding will act through"you". as you.Now some practical pointers:1)Don't worry about how difficult it is to live, just relax. You are responsiblefor obtaining understanding only, not doing.2) Meditate regularly on this message: Why do I consider myself as Vineeta, andwhat does it mean? Do I have any proof that I am so and so?3) When you are satisfied that you don't have any proof you are such Vineeta asyou have been taking yourself to be, then give this messaage a chance to act bydis-identifying with Vineeta in thoughts, and deeds. Take Vineeta as instrument,though, and take good care impartially and objectively, it is vehicle to takeyou home. You must visualize Vineeta in YOU as all bodies are in you! Practicethis often.4)Use this forum to clarify doubts, don't shun them away. If you come across aliving teacher or friends who are interested in Truth, discuss and dialogue withthem to erase all doubts. For your information, I have learned more from myTeacher with one on one dialogues then and there than from reading scriptures,or listening to one way talks. Above all Burn with the longing not to rest untilyou unfold the mystery of WHAT you are, the world you live in and God.5) If you are sincere the universe will conspire to give you this Knowledgewhich burns away all conditioning-karmas, and sets you free.Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt------------------------Vineetaji, You ask a very interesting question. It depends on one's own level of "maturity"---a very mis-understood word.Maturity does not mean total Vairagya, it means doing that which is necessary at that point in time, dispaasionately. As in, it does not mean one should give up the society and live in the forest or away from society, it means doing whatever needs to be done with "equanimity", while living in the society. Swami Dayananda has a great example.There is a balloon in the room, and there are 3 people---a 3 yr old child, an 8 yr old child, and an adult----you. The 8 yr old wants to play with the balloon, but the 3 yr old also wants it too. If the 8 yr old takes it, the 3 yr old wants it right away and will also cry. So, the 8 yr old lets him play with it. As soon as the 3 yr old leaves the room, the 8 yr old takes the balloon, until the 3 yr old comes back, and he gives the balloon back to him ! You play with the balloon with the 3 yr old, as if you are also 3 yrs old. When he is out of the room, if invited, you also play with the 8 yr old, as if you are 8 yrs old, and when the two kids are out of the room, you may or may not play with the balloon, even if it is in the room and both the children are out !! The 3 yr old is a balloon-Sansaaree--it means everything to him, and cannot live without it. The 8 yr old is a balloon-Tyagee, who can flit in and out of a balloon-sansaar ! he has done a tyaag but is still attached to it !! You on the other hand is a balloon-Sanyaasee. It means nothing to you, but you can still play with the children without becoming attached to it, and if they are not there, it can remain in a corner. Let us say, you are a Wall Street type, who has now after reading become a Tyagee. You are still attached to the Sansaar, but can get out of it. By constantly doing things dispassionately, you will become a Sanyaasee, while living in the Society, and eventually may teach this to your friends and family. There is an obligation even to a Sanyaasee. The obligation is to teach. It does not die with the person, but is transmitted to posterity, by teaching. According to Swami Dayananda, you must Teach only a "qualified" person, who is desirous of this knowledge, and has become a Tyagee and seeks this knowledge. So, you can do it Vinitaji. And you should. The Wall streeter is also performing only a job. That job should be done appropriately, without trying to fleece or cheat his clients. His / Her advice should be appropriate, and if in the course of time, he or she does mak a lot of money, there are enough charities and educational institutions in the world that can benefit from the largesse of such a proper person, who is bound to help "just and proper" institutions, such as schools for the blind, or education of the disenfranchised, health care of the poor or whatever helps the society. This help should come without any strings. Help for the sake of help only. The Lord passes the wealth through you to others. Durgesh Mankikar,MD-Dear sadhaks, In fewest words,permit narinder to send to youthis missile of love"Go beyond words ".............Let not words become a trap, or a snareAnd the only way to the Stllness of your Being the only way to The Beyond ............................. IsMeditationMeditate, meditate, meditateMeditate twice a day , And if that is not possible; At least , ONCE a day !!!!!AUMnarinder bhandari---PRIOR POSTINGIt is Grace and yet for Grace to be, one must have true longing for God and God aloneSophia-----In the words of Pujya Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the root cause for not actualising the message of the Bhagavan is that we do things against once spiritual progress due to attachment to desire for enjoyment and pleasure. Attachment to desire for enjoyments is the greatest obstacle in Self / God Realization. When there is intense desire for enjoyment of pleasures, then giving it up appears to be very difficult, rather impossible. A spiritual aspirant is totally independent in giving up attachment to enjoyment of pleasures. He can give this attachment up through thought, inquiry and reflection. By thinking / inquirying, he can come to the understanding that he wants happiness that has no shortage or limitation, and that never ends."Yam labdhvaa chaaparam laabham manyate naadhikam tatah;yaasminnisthato na dukhen gurnaapi vichaalyatetam vidhyaadukhsam yog viyogam yogasanjitam. " (Gita 6:22-23)"Having gained which state, he does not reckon any other gain greater than that, and wherein established, he is not shaken even by the greatest affliction.this separation from the assumed union with pain, is called Yoga."Human beings are blessed with immense ability to think, reflect and discriminate between truth and untruth. If he chooses to not think, then it is his mistake and error. It is his lack of prudence and attention to what is important.It is a rule that through the enjoyment of pleasures, the object enjoyed is destroyed and at the same time it leads to the enjoyer's downfall and decline. Just like with passion and desire when one indulges in wealth and material goods then that money is destroyed (used up) and one falls down. When importance of wealth, desire,greed, attachment, inertness, slavery etc. comes in him, then it leads to his downfall. When one indulges in enjoyment of food and eating, not only is food consumed and destroyed, but one takes a fall. The increased desire for enjoying foods and increased attachment to food is a sure downfall.-- Paritala Gopi KrishnaShree Hari Ram RamWecome back, Paritala Gopi Krishnaji. After long time... it is good to hear from you.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram----------------------------Dear Sadak,Because one is stuck by a life pattern by his previous Karma account. A cart puller in most cases live and die just like any ordinary man. A high politician lives and dies evolved in that pattern of life. So each one is placed in a particular form Human, Animal, Bird etc to undergo Karma Bandh, says Bagavan to Yudhava in Yudhava Geetha. We see people has NO chance or chance given due to place of birth or under bad circumstances to say Om Namo Narayana/ Sri Rama/Namashivaya. To say it says that one needs previous Virtue (Puniya Pala) says Sri Vishnu Puran. To get that Virtue one gets it accidentally going to temple or meeting a Guru,or a day in Sat Sangh. From there the Virtue grows multi fold.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan Shree HariRam RamSathyanarayanji, you say "people have NO chance or chance given ... .to say the name of God", but Swamiji says human life is only a "saadhan yoni" and all human beings are entitled and eligible for liberation, God Realization, salvation, moksha etc. Can you share some insights on why possibly differing views ?From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------Attachment to worldly things prevents us from following the true path even when we know it. Through sadhna, satsang, sewa and meditation it is possible to get rid of attachment.Hari Shanker Deo-----------------------Bhagvada Geeta Ch 3/ sh 33." Even a wise man acts in accordance with his own nature; beings will follow their own nature; what can restraint do ?" me thinks, the answer to Vineetas query is contained in the shloka above . At any point of time, we are what we are. We cannot have been otherwise. It is something to do with the paradox of Destiny and Effort. The desiring, wishing and willing, the effort, the Doing and the operation of the immutable Law of karma.... all come into play ................ to compel us to be what we are and act only according to our own nature ( swabhava) at any particular point of time. Actually, what vineeta would , perhaps, like to understand how to go beyond one's limitations of being at a certain time. She might find her answer in a related post by narinder on 01 Feb 09 Re: How can I Remember God and by True Sentiments for Attaining Salvation?AUM narinder bhandari----------Dear Sadhaks,To make your knowing reflected in actionthe way, the only wayISMeditationA s an answer to all the questions that arise in the Mind,One answer, perhaps, that I suggest to youIsPut the question aside for a Momentand instead, let the question be" WHO IS IT THAT SEEKS TO KNOW ?"Begin your search withinBegin with yourselfBegin with yourselfWho you are !Are you the body ?Does the ' body ' say , " I am. " Or, Are you the thought, " I am thisâ€¦. or â€¦that " " I want thisâ€¦ orâ€¦. that " " I donot like this â€¦. Or â€¦ that "Are you the Mind that speaks and seeks all !Or,Are you the intellect passing judgements ?Who, Sir, are you ?Seek within, if you want to know.Sit down in a quiet spot. And, watch your thoughts.Thoughts about the Body,Thoughts about the Mind,Judgements galore !Watch, just watch. Do nothing, but just watch.And then, Allow the primal Energy,Which was manifest in all thoughts,To manifest as it's own awareness !By just watchingAnd, becoming the watcher, the seer, The witness of all.By stopping your chatterAnd becoming silent, just becoming silent ! all is achieved.............. so say the Wise Watch, Become a Witness, a SeerThat is, If you so want ! If you want to enter the space of BlissWhich is your ownWhich does not die If you want your knowingTo be reflected in action, in conduct Ah !This One Answer is valid, though, If you are prepared to ' hear 'With your preoccupation with 'This and That ' set asideThis and That. How and Why.For ONE Moment . This Moment Now.NOW, my dear !!!!AUM narinder bhandari ------PRIOR POSTINGShree Hari|| Ram Ram ||Dear Vineetaji, thanks for asking a very important question.Swamiji Maharaj has explained in detail the answer to this question. in his discourses. The answer to this question is contained in Gitaji also.Six noteworthy points (not necessarily independent) which act as a stopper to spiritual progress:1. We have assumed strong relationship with the persons and the objects of the world, the sense of 'ME' and 'MINE'. Our deepest desire is to draw the pleasure from the world, this is totally misplaced thought since the world does not have the capacity to supply us sustained Sukha (pleasure) because Gitaji is calling this world as a Dukhalya (House of suffering, ref: Gita: 8-15).2. Love of money, the assumption it is the sure ticket to attain ultimate sustaining happiness, people become so sure of it that they are ready to commit a crime to get the money. 3. We have divided our life into two separate compartments, (Adhyatam / Sadhna) part and the activities of the day to day life. It is a common observation that potential spiritual aspirants work hard to gain more and more bookish knowledge (information only) and listen to the many discourses without changing their way of life. This knowledge serves only one purpose - to boost the ego, the person claims, I know and many others do not know. In fact this knowledge proves to be a burden, person is ready to unloaded this information to whoever he can find to listen to.4. The deep attachment to Bhoga (pleasure) and Sangrah (accumulation) does not allow us to have a single pointed-ness or focus for sustained effort for Sadhna (Ref. Gitaji 2/41-44).5. The assumption that Maya is the culprit for our deep attachment, the relationships of the world do not leave us, actually it is just the reverse we do not want to leave the relationships.6. Lack of urgency, the earnestness and sincerity (lagan) to pursue the spiritual path. Meera says "mere to Giridhar Gopal dusra na koi" Nothing else was important to her.|| Ram Ram ||Humble regards,Madan Kaura----------- Hari OmVineetaji ! You have asked a beautiful question. In fact we "know" but we do not"admit" ." Ham jaanate hain par ham maanate nahin". We know that whoever takes birth , dies. But when some one near and dear dies, we start crying. Why? Because inside, the importance of world is still there. We want to become happy, sure, but with worldly things. That then is not ANANDA. We want to gain knowledge, sure, but with books and of outer world. That then is not CHIT. We want to live forever, sure, but with this body. That then is not SAT. Desire for becoming SATCHIDANANDA is there in all of us, but erroneously we want to fulfil that desire with reference to the body/world/worldly things/worldly knowledge. Inside us, the importance of WORLD continues.Our acceptance thus is not firm and well placed. We melt before the worldly enticements. We are not able to relinquish deep rooted desire for "SUKH BHOG and SANGRAH' ( Consumption and accumulation) arising out of body and world.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------Ram Ram,your question, "why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know and have fully accepted that THIS IS IT"it is half true, because you just know THIS IS IT, you haven't accepted it. There are few ifs and buts which still remain.We just collect datas in our brain. We don't implement them. Had you accepted THIS IS IT, there is nothing easier than this. Because you need not do any thing. Yes, if you don't accept THAT IS IT, then it's the toughest thing. I could not understand why people have problem accepting it. Though it is the only truth. Yes it is the only truth.Ashok Goenka--------------------------- Dear Vineeta, many answers to this query have been given ................. shastras can be quoted on them............ and all are true .......................... But the two simple answers which bring Joy to narinder's heart ,............. which make him aware of the paradox of action and destiny , and also lead the resolution of the paradox, narinder gives below............. Ans 1.narinder cannot at this moment quote the exact reference, but he remembers reading two shalokas in the scriptures ..................... ONE: Till the Time comes for you to meditate, you will not be able to do soTWO ( next shaloka ) : BUT, if you think that the Time has not yet come, it will never come even in a thousand aeons ! Answer 2. Nisargadatta Maharaj was once asked the question asto why of all the thousands of disciples of his Guru, only he moved into enlightenment . His reply was , " This is one question that no enlightened person can truly answer. One can only say, ' perhaps my time had come '.....or, ' it was Grace ' ..." ah, dear sadhaks, who think that they are the Doers ( and almost everyone is into Doing, whereas the Truth is that you were never the Doer, only God is . ), all that they can do is to strive and strive ............ the results are only in God's hands ! Bh. Gt. Ch, 2/47 is applicable to one's sadhna too ! All the scriptures guide the Sadhaks as to how to ' DO' ( with what attitude, with what understanding ) so that the Ignorance of their being the Doers dies ............. and, the realisation of the Self or God being the only Doer dawns . It is 'not doing ; that is so peaceful, so blissful. That is why Krishna says , " Just surrender to me "( GT Ch. 18/66) But, surrender , too, is not a Doing..... it is an happening , it is Grace.. ...... ah ! Osho, the enlightened master, has said:, " People ask, what to do to move into Not-doing. There is no way. Yet I shall tell you what to do..................When you read the scriptures, or get the answers from the Knowers of Truth.............. sit down and see the facticity of the truth read or heard. Just close your eyes and look at your own Life ............. watch it ............. weight the various incidents of your Life in the facticity of the answer or the Truth . In that watching, the Doing will, one day, get dropped by itself. The true understanding of the answer or the truth will 'happen' by itself ." AUM narinder bhandari-----My dandavat pranams to all in this forum..... Your question, Vineeta, is a sincere and direct inquiry....what is the difficulty in executing the orders of the ancient sadhus, gurus, etc? I have personally found, in years gone by, that I had to analyze carefully who I took influence from. I say "influence" rather than guidance, because we can be influenced by persons whom we don't necessarily even go to for guidance! We become affected by comments, even when it is sometimes just a passerby, we might overhear a conversation, see something on TV, or, the worst of all, go to a counselor whom we think, possibly, (under illusion) because of the title, "professional" has some edge on giving us instruction. I have found that maturity is a matter of developing our own strength to know that we want to follow the standards of the scriptures, even if it is not popular, not seen as modern, "cool", or socially "what's happening". It is a commitment to ourselves, to the Lord, and not to the changing material world in general.praying my words are not a cause of pain to anyone,Mahalaksmi Dasi----Priy sadhika jiIt is difficult due to lack of practice. Like a right handed person faces difficulty to perform same work with left hand. Although both hands are equal & one have full knowledge & believe one can do it But even then with left hand one feels difficult to do the same thing what one is doing by right hand. It is practice.Thanxraja gurdasani--------------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

May 17, 2009

Dear SadhaksI am new to this forum in the capacity of an initiator of a topic However ihave d to this group for quite a while and I want to congratulate allconcerned in creating this platform to allow people like me to enrich myspiritual spaceI have been a student of Vedanta for the past 10 years and fully accept andsurrender to our highest ancient PhilosophyMy question is why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know andhave fully accepted that THIS IS ITPlease enlighten....vineeta malpani----------------------NEW POSTINGDear Sadhak,

Your question is worth following.Every sadhak knows that even

reading one sloka ( verse )of Bhagavat Gita will helps s.How many of us

read even one verse.I am reading one chapter My friend was reading the

whole of the Bhagvata Geeta I know its results in my life.t is through

our intution that we feel its power.Please follow its teachings.

Truly yours

Shankerprasad S Bhatt-------Hari OmYou are right,

Devji Maharaj. But then "sadhana" necessarily implies "putting the

ideals into practice". We all in this forum deliberate this

transformation of "theory" into "practice" only. Once we accept - Yes!

These ideals can be lived. Why they would appear in the Scriptures in

the first place , if they are not practical?- then the path becomes

very smooth. Our Chairman Raja Gurudasaniji calls it to be "AIM". If

you fix your object to be - live ideals of Gitaji in practical life, be

certain we are on right path.Then as rightly stated by SS

Bhattji , all Saints and Sages, Ramakrishna Paramhansa, Swami

Vivekanand, Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, Satsanga,

Scriptures will point you the way forward.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

---------------------Shree Hari-Brother Vyas,Namaskar:Your short message on death of Ego drew my focus, I saw sound advice in yourthoughts.I went through a period of ego destruction,(I might add I am not free of ityet), and yes methods of its demise can be manifold.Without going into details, Grace seems to be part of it,(I was told this by theOne who helped me), I honestly did not realize what she was speaking of tillmuch later.The engine that drove this process, was desire for the Truth.(maybe that is theCore the Seed as it were to all spiritual paths).The outcome was not seeing the aged, the afflicted physical or emotional, thepoor.....as anything but a beloved of creations of 'The Divine'.Just reflecting.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor)----------------------narinder thanks Vyas jee for his deep interest in helping him to progress in his spiritual Life. ah, my friends,dear sadhakas true ......nari just asked of himself today, this Moment Nowwondered .... this moment now......if he had any more to say ..............and he fell silent ...........any mental positions, nari ? none any teachings from you for anyone ? None any message to anyone .......? none .. !!!!and ......this moment now................... any words for the self, for narinder .........?" keep working on yourself , narinder .........all that nari has had to say ..............all that came to him as a blessing, as joy and peace, as love , as wisdom from the wise, as speech from silence,lovingly has nari shared with narinder ............he has nothing more to add..............all that he had to say, has been said ............his heart, with love, joy and satisfaction of being, is filled ........................much have you given to him, narinder ..........and even more from God he recieved ................filled to the brim is nari .... and his vessel is now totally emptyrevelling in timeless silence , his head he lays at Krishna's feet ................ "nari's final words to thee are ....................." Keep working on yourself, narinder ............ be yourself .............love yourself, narinder, ............love yourself wisely ....................keep working on yourself narinder and pay heed to what the knowers of Truth lovingly do say...let not your Mind come too much into play ...........all the buddhas are smiling on you............. and are ever guiding you ..........just inhale their fragrance ......... holding your Mind from any comments , or judgement ...and should you still feel the need for succour ............go, lay your head at the feet of the saints and sagesand wash their feet with tears of Love .............aapo deepo bhava, narinderBlessings of the Buddhas be with thee ........."and friends....................nari, narinder, the self, you and i, i and you ............... are not -twohave, in truth, never been TWO !AUMnarinder bhandari----------------------PRIOR POSTINGNamasteTo answer your question, the message of the Gita is an ideal, it is what one strives to but it is not for everyday practicality of life. There are many deviations in human personality given the geneology, environment that one is socialized in, personality traits etc. Therefore, this is a set of principles that can transform one if applied. However, one has to transform ones way of seeing, thinking and living for this to bear fruit, for this to occur consistent efforts have to be made but it is not something that can be internalized and practiced in one shot. There are many circumstances that in some instances force one to act contrary to what is taught.Best RegardsDev Maharaj------------------------Hari OmSadhak Narinder's views about "spiritual ego" are worth reading. Messages like this are beneficial and take forward Satsanga. The real "spiritual ego" however continues to be "insistence on the methodology undertaken by Sadhak himself" - say meditation, or karma yoga etc. Real Sadhak will never say- "this method is only method" !But again he ought to be very careful in expressions. Let it not flow unless when in poetic mood. Consider the opening remarks:QuoteThe deep desire for the Death of the False in us, the Death of ego, the Death of the self as it is at the Present Moment, is what makes a seeker True !UnquoteNarinderji ! There is no false existing in us. Don't "accept" the existence of "False" in you. No amount of efforts/meditation/knowledge/sadhana can remove false/faults from you , if you accept them to be with you and then try to remove it. Reason: The very acceptance is faulty.I hope my pin pointing subtle areas for your benefit and for bringing out the truth will be taken in right spirit by you. We all are here in this Satsanga to advance spiritually.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B----------------------Dear vineetaji: NamasteIt is an excellent question why we cannot accept the world "AS IT IS" and move on. My understanding is also very simple based on a simple example. . Let us say a group of three people have seen a rose bush with lot of beautiful flowers. One persons get elated looking at it and wants to enjoy the beauty for ever looking from a distance, another looks at the thorns and feels dejected that he cannot get them easily and take them home and another does not even recognize that it existed on his way. The object is the same but gives rise to three different reactions. Why? Because each one projected his own mind on to the rose bush from his past impressions of roses. World is what we project our impressions on it and that is the problem why we cannot follow Gita's message although we understood it as a simple philosophy. In simple terms the world is what we want to it look like. The first one who appreciated the beauty from a distance is the one whom we should follow initially in our pursuit of looking at the world as it IS. Later on in the practice, we should develop dispassion in the sense whether we see this beautiful rose bush or heap of garbage it should not evoke any positive or negative reaction. Equanimity is central theme of Gita in my simple understanding and can be practiced easily if we put our mind to it every day, every minute of existence.May the wisdom of looking at the 'World AS IT IS' prevail to reach the state of Bliss we all seek.B.Vempaty---------------------Dear SadhakEven Vedantic truths are revealed in this Bhagvata Geeta.For more association with Vedant join Vedantic Society for books,lectures and other programs.This discussion will surely help you.Read the example of Mahatma Gandhi. He found reliefs after reading and reciting Bhagvat Geeta every day.I read Chapter XV of Gita every day.Have faith,devotion and concistency in reading Bhagvata Geeta and you will surely experience difference in your life.Read all books written by Ramakrishna Paramhansa and Swami Vivekanand besides participating in this group discussion.Wishing all success to youï¿½Truly yoursï¿½S S Bhatt---------------------Dear sadaks,One knows THIS IS IT, cannot experience. One knows air craft/train/bus. Can it be driven until trained. Semi trained also risky/dangerous. One knows petrol, but can it be got, without acquiring through knowledge how to get from earth and it requires team work.Now that you know GOD exits and man has all the ability to become Godly. But knowledge(Gyana), skill (sadana), Vairag (Determination) does not happen though the mind tells one should become GODLY. To gain unworthy fame one works day and night. To gain infinity it is not easy.In collage one studies but practical is vital to get through the exams. To get VITAL what sacrifice one does?Example: Sidharam at teen age had strong desire (desire tool used here) to see Bagavan Shiva. He was told serveral ways to attain Godlyness, but it failed. He decided to jump off a cliff as he thought his human birth is waste. He jumped, but suddenly he realized some one lifting him off from the fall. On the cliff top he was placed and saw Bagavan Shiva and Parvathi. Visit HIS jeeva samadhi 2 Km from Sholapur.Baktha Gora cut his both hands for a promise on Bagavan Vital. Bagavan came in disguise and worked as servant in Gora house and at end he realized it was Sri Krishna. To get that status one need to renounce totally and surrender. Bagavan waited until Sidharam jumped off and Gora cut his hands. Sadaks note Bagavan never came just before jumping or cutting hands. Action done. The untimate Karma pala (renouncing action) bears the experiencing GOD.Bagavan said to be experienced by Gyana, which is in Sabdha roop ( devine Sound mentioned in scripts) Ref: Upanashid and Bagavath.Sotra/Mantra: 1) Hare Rama Hare Krishna. 2) Sri rama rama Ramethi- Ramerama Mano rame. Over period of decades sounds change like people character change. Children names are called Pinky and Tinky. Varun or Marun.Keethana or Keethi. These sounds have no divine touch. Those days, they called Krishna/Rama/Govinda/ Mukundha/Purushothama. Slowly it changed to Krishn, Ram/ Govind, Mukundh, Purushoth. Each Sabdha (sound) has specific effect. To day still worse. If one does Havon Kundh/Yagna, it can be noted the sound, Rama/Krishna/Kesava Etc. Earlier I posted the important of the letters "a", which is today left and called Ram. Got accustomed (Deep Vasana of Sound) one does not want to change and says it is Bavana importance. For Rama (God sake) sake, for HIS love sake can we change? Then how it is possible to elevate to infinity with hidden ego/not recognisable ego.Bear with me sadaks.B.Sathyanarayan-------------------it is because siddhant is an ideal condition whereas in practical there are several deviations which distract us.we always see others actions & try to imitate or follow. it is instinctive since childhood. therefore it is a saying that parvarish mus be good. people living in ashrams follow their gurus and make their life. similarly in home also child follow maata pita.In manas prabhuji says GUN YAH UBHAY NA DEKHIYE DEKHIYA SO ABIBEK.Raja Gurdasani-----------------------PRIOR POSTINGShree HariRam RamSwamiji says - It is difficult to actualize the message of Bhagavad Gita only due to our deep attachment to sense enjoyments! God Realization is not difficult, but giving up attachment to enjoyment and sense pleasures is difficult.The Lord has said in the Gita :"Bhogaisvaryaprasaktaanam tayaapahrtacetasaamvyavasaayaatmikaa buddhih samaadhau na vidheeyate.""No mind that is lured by sense-objects and engrossed in sensual enjoyments and glory of material possessions can ever enter, O, Partha, the state of contemplation and divine communiontranscendental." *He who is intensely attached to sense-enjoyments and acquisition of material things, cannot even conceive or decide on moving towards God. There is no resolve to turn towards God, and when this resolve is not strong enough, where is the question of God-Realization ?Meera Das, Ram Ram----------dear sadhaks , The deep desire for the Death of the False in us, the Death of ego, the Death of the self as it is at the Present Moment, is what makes a seeker True ! A true Seeker's yearning , pining , thirsting heart gasping for Breath , as it were !!!!!His food and drink, thereafter, are the words of the Saints and Sages the Knowers of Truth !His Joy and Happiness lie in the experiences that lead his Mind into Silence Into the No- Mind state !Sometimes, the spiritual ego becomes a real barrier to our spiritual progress ! The thoughts of Maitreya Ishwara below are for narinder a real Joy to meditate on !SPRITUAL EGOthe spiritual ego is subtle, cunningsuperior, inferior and secretive.the spiritual ego develops because egohas to live somewhere until it dissolves.if you are a seeker of truth, the egoidentifies with your quest and can becomeserious and secretly superior.the inner reality of seekers is neverquite as beautiful as the ideals of their traditionand they decorate their ego so it looks a little nicer.this is a common trap for many seekersand one from which it is difficult to escape.authenticity and playfulness are the antidote.for this you will need support from thosewho are already living in this way. when the ideal is authenticity, not purity, youare free to be yourself.authenticity and playfulness give you thespace to face yourself as you are and toconfront your darkness consciously.this conscious self-encounter brings purityindirectly, without the hypocritical burdenof a spiritually pure ego.~Maitreya Ishwara AUM narinder ---------PRIOR POSTINGWhy is it so difficult to actualise the message of the Bhagvad Geeta ?Simple ... overwhelming IGNORANCE (lack of clarity) and stubborn INERTIA(hesitance to change)... on top of all the towering notion of ownership onignorance in the name of knowledge and on inertia in the name of volition ...the ego ...Respects.Naga Narayana.------------------------------Dear sadak,A Sadak question: ""why is it (Vedantha) so difficult to live that philosophy when you know and have fully accepted that THIS IS IT"". Because IT is beyond any sense or senses of ordinary human. It is not important whether you fully accept or not. IT is to be known by Gyana and not by any means. To get Gyana Vedhant is only theory, but vedhant has also to be practiced, by Vairag (Determination) -surrender- dissolving 6 bad Gunas,- becoming totally Satvik, which one will face difficulties. Sri Mikeji words ,""Supremely Dear am I to him AND he is dear to me"". What does it mean? No matter how deep you may do anything divine, it does not work that easy. It is HIS (God) sankalp (Wish) that can transform one.Now all know that Yudhistra and 4 brothers were silent in spite of Droupathi being disrobed and maximum insulting words and physical torcher (Removing their crowns, robes etc) for what? To maintain Dharma. To such Dharmic person Arjuna, it was the effort and grace of Bagavan by saying Geetha which transformed him. So however Dharmic, strong, wealthy one may be, it is HIS sankalp that can make wonders. Another Example: What Ajamil Do in his life time? He only called his son Narayana at his last breath. Fire when touched knowingly or unknowingly burns. So the NAM of Narayana said has effect of Vishnu Dhoot appear and take him to Vaikunt. That is HIS Sankalp said in Geetha about "Anthima Kal Prayana Samaye" I think 8th Volume. I don't think Ajamil knows anything about Vedhant. There are 2 Dharm Bagavan has. One Ordinary Dharm and other is Bagavath Dhram. In Bhagavath Dhram HE there no restriction to make HIS sankalp to any oneJai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan.----------------------narinder , verily , prayed to Kanha To allow the Mind to die to thought ......... and krishna Beloved ........... who answers all prayers replied ............. " Die, narinder, die ............ death is the WayLove and Hate, Life and Death ............ drop your Mind, and know ............. Love is the Way , Silence is the Way, One -ness is the Way Meditation and Death are not -two.... Meditation is the Way .......... Go beyond words, nari, go beyond words Dropping all doubts , and all assertions is the WAY ............................... " ah, friends, the doings of lifetime after lifetime, came to an end,came to end, when my Beloved smiledthe desire for knowlrege and knowing died,when my Beloved smiled !!sowhat can nari say now, and how , pray .........except to be silent ............Silence so Blissful, ah !And from this silence,now blossom words , that are not words ..............how can they be words ............. they could only be Silence !!go beyond words, my friends, go beyond words MEDITATION is the Way ...............Meditate, meditate, meditate , till the self , in Grace, bestows on you ......the knowing of the Self !ah, the Self is ONE, how could it be Two ?AUM narinder------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari-Dear Vineeta,You have studied the Vedanta, and fully accept 'THIS IS IT', and you fullyaccept and surrender to this 'Ancient Philosophy'.Buddha said, "I point at the moon, and you look at my finger".Your question is,"... why is it so difficult to live that philosophy".The philosophy must be pointing you, guiding you ultimately to Moksha.It is the finger that points. I have studied various traditions overthe decades, and realized by stepping back as it were, they are all pointing tothe same place.I have found that the Bhagvad Geeta is the most connecting of all that I haveread, (that's the best way that I can put it), Arjuna and Shree Krishna comeover so strongly, that the corridors of time seem not to exist.May I offer you these wonderful words:B.G. Ch.7These four kinds of virtuous menDo worship Me, O Arjuna:The distressed, seekers of welfare,Seekers of knowledge, and the wise. (16)Of them, the wise man, e'er steadfast,Devoted to the One, excels;Supremely dear am I to him,And he is dear to Me, as well. (17)All these indeed are exalted,But I see the man of wisdomAs My Self. He, with mind steadfast,Abides in Me, the Supreme Goal. (18)At the end of his many birthsThe wise man takes refuge in Me.He knows: "All is Vasudeva.How very rare is that great soul! (19)With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor-----------------------Hari OmAs always , Vasudev Sathyanarainji reflects, in his latest message, purity and innocence , a hall mark of real sadhak. He reflects here a concern for general !He says:But how many get chance to atleast listen to this? Only hand full. Swamiji has said the words , "Entitled & Eligible" to liberate.Vasudev Sathyanaraiji ! Consider that "entitlement and eligibilty" to be CHANGING from "I am of the world, world is mine"TOI am of God, Only God is mine, Nothing else is mineMERE TO GIRDHAR GOPAL , DOOSARO NA KOIMatter ends. All scriptures, saints , verses of Gitaji, Upanishads, Vedas, get reconciled. All subtle confusions get cleared, all dilemmas go away- the very ego , the very one's SELF changes for ever, never to change again !! Becomes Divine forever.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------Dear Vyas jee,Thank you for your thoughts ..You are right !The Self ( atma) is NOT the doer . Ch. 13/ 30.All human beings are eligible to attain God and have the freedom of choice whether or not to do so.. a freedom granted to them by the Lord.. the freedom called "free-will"The Self is One ................ Ek Omkar ..........there are no two selfs, ah ! when all is Govinda, then ,who is the seeker, and who the sought ......... pray !when all is One,when there is action in action, and inaction in action ..........when both are One , where is the Paradox of being, pray !If yes is No... and No is Yes ............ when in Love they embrace ,where is the paradox , pray !If Silence is the only Reality, beyond all words ............ IF , when the self is known, all becomes known ............IF all the doing culminates in Not-Doing,who is the doer , and who the non-doer, pray .....when dancing stops, where is the dance , and where is the dancer ......... ?? when Mind rests in deep sleep , in the embrace of the Un-known,who is it that is no more, and who, ever and ever, the One ever known ??ah, narinder, the not-knower , does not know .............BUT.......... Krishna Beloved says ............... "I do nothing at all", thus would be the harmonized knower of Truth think, seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, eating, going, sleeping, breathing, Speaking, letting go, seizing, opening and closing his eyes convinced that the senses move among the sense objects " (Gita Shlokas 5/8 and 5/9; Gita 13/ 31, 13/32, and Gita 14/3, )The reward, Kanha promised for Sadhna is freedom from the bonds of Action, yielding good and evil "fruits" ( Gita 9/28) narinder , verily , prayed to Kanha To allow the Mind to die to thought ......... and krishna Beloved ........... who answers all prayers replied ............. " Die, narinder, die ............ death is the WayLove and Hate, Life and Death ............ drop your Mind, and know ............. Love is the Way , Silence is the Way, One -ness is the Way Meditation and Death are not -two.... Meditation is the Way .......... Go beyond words, nari, go beyond words Dropping all doubts , and all assertions is the WAY ............................... "Narinder BhandariPRIOR POSTINGNamaste ,Swamiji saying Saadhan Yoni (a birth for achieving and accomplishing it's goal). Yoni means womb. In any animal womb if a jeeva is born (Except for extreme rare case), that Jeeva does not have intellect. Has only instinct. Such Jeeva born from animal yoni, just very clearly and correctly washes away it` s karmas, only but not it` s vasana (impressions remaining in the mind from past births/action). Going through few animal births by just allowing people to kick it, kill it Etc attains human birth. Due to these animals performing their duties (Say an Ox pulling a cart, Cow giving milk, goat/hen giving meat-service to humans is Saadhana done by these animals) gets right to be born as human called Saadhana Yoni. Only a lady Human Yoni can give room to a Jeeva to continue Saadhana for liberation. As humans people get chance to learn Geetha, Srimath Bagavath, get blessings of Swamiji Etc and seek God. Only as human the liberation is possible said in many Puran and Upanashid as a concept. This concept only Swamiji says "Saadha Yoni" and further Swamiji has said to Sadaks that You are THAT, means you (Human) have all the provisions and body designed in such a manner to think, act, meditate and seek God. Such is birth of human very precious. (Maanusha Dheham Dullabam)As Swamiji said that all humans are entitled and eligible for liberation, Moksha is abosolutely true. But this truth is not known to many. Let it be begger or king or politician, or social server or Ghrahastha, anyone can know this truth and read Geetha and practice dharmic life. Almost human race know that there is a eye opener Bagavath Geetha. But how many get chance to atleast listen to this? Only hand full. Swamiji has said the words , "Entitled & Eligible" to liberate. A student gets eligible and entitled with Scholarship to do Ph.D. But he does not study and goes hay with pleasure of world due to teen age. As human, in childhood play, teenage wonders and pleasures and at old age Chintha Sakthaha Ref:(Bajagovindam) Man can sing Bagavan names, dance of HIS glory, DO Bajan on GOVIND Etc which he is eligible and has all the freedom to do, but does not do. So Punarapi Maranam, Punarapi Jananam---.Virochna and Indra asked Bramaji who they are. Baramaji said, '" you are THAT SAT" go and see in still water. Virochana seeing his own image decided he is God and ended up in trouble. Indra seeing his image knew that it is reflection of his roop but not Swaroop and knew that he should seek Bhraman.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan.-----------------------------Hari OmBeautiful short message by Sophiaji ! Narinderji ! couple of points of correction.... on your message in favour of "dependence" of a human being and " GOD IS THE DOER".No to Both.. All Human beings are Entirely Independent and Eligible to attain God ! andNeither God nor Pure Self are in any way doers (Karta). Jeeva (embodied soul) when he "assumes" himself to be doer, becomes "doer" because , whoever is "bhokta" (enjoyer) is a Karta (doer) . In reality, there is constant activity going on in the matter. Whoever forms "affinity" with it MUST become doer. If Jeeva is not doer, and instead God is doer, entire Karma Yoga becomes redundant. Verses upon verses starting from "karmanye vaadhikaraste" will become redundant.Human life has been given to you only for changing your SVABHAV / Nature / attitude. No other creature except a human being has that capacity/ privilege and competence. I would say even demi-gods (devatas) don't have that capacity. Question of animals etc having that capacity does not arise. Jeeva (human) has complete independence granted to him for changing his ego, his svabhav and turning towards God. He has "conscience" especially given to him, to help him in that.One must find out first as to why human life is stated to be rarest of the rare births? Why even Devatas want to become humans? Why? If a human is toy and everything is pre destined then what is the difference between a human and an animal? Human life is not a BHOG YONI (a birth for enjoyment of pleasures), it is Karma/Yog Yoni (a birth for selfless service / realizing Union). Here you are fully fully independent.Because in human life only you can change your "self" from worldly to divine. I REPEAT IN NO OTHER LIFE FORM YOU CAN DO SO ! Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say: Human life has been given to you only for changing your svabhav.A human is not a puppet like animals. A frog can not change its svabhav but a human can. BG 3:33 quoted refers to others. It says you can't change others. To yourself , you can always. Neither fate, nor Karmas, nor Law of Karma, nor any particular situation or circumstances , nor God,nor Time, nor "assumed" absence of Grace of God, nothing can ever be a hindrance in your turning towards Him. NOTHING- I repeat. Only willingness is needed. Only longing, exclusive longing, for God is needed- as so rightly stated by Sophiaji. PURUSHARTHA is needed. (Not help of Prarabdha).Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N BDear Sadhakas, Namaste!Out of the great respect for Ancient Philosophy, one accepts it and seeminglysurrenders to it, is obviously not sufficient, right Vineetaji? Otherwise thequestion of difficult to live its message will not arise!First of all the message has to be extracted carefully, and then chewed anddigested so it becomes blood, bones, and nerves of Vineeta, then only themessage becomes alive in you and acts. THen Vineeta becomes the excuse for themessage to shine Itself!Let us see the Vedanta's Core message: You are not the body-mind basedautonomous individual endowed with doer-ship. It is mistaken identity, the rootignorance! You are limitless Conscious-Being, Impersonal Intelligence!Everything is YOU, seamless One Consciousness!This is what you are right now,not that you will become! Just realize this truth now.If this message is thoroughly understood, goes through "you", you will feel, andact from this Understanding. In other words, this Understanding will act through"you". as you.Now some practical pointers:1)Don't worry about how difficult it is to live, just relax. You are responsiblefor obtaining understanding only, not doing.2) Meditate regularly on this message: Why do I consider myself as Vineeta, andwhat does it mean? Do I have any proof that I am so and so?3) When you are satisfied that you don't have any proof you are such Vineeta asyou have been taking yourself to be, then give this messaage a chance to act bydis-identifying with Vineeta in thoughts, and deeds. Take Vineeta as instrument,though, and take good care impartially and objectively, it is vehicle to takeyou home. You must visualize Vineeta in YOU as all bodies are in you! Practicethis often.4)Use this forum to clarify doubts, don't shun them away. If you come across aliving teacher or friends who are interested in Truth, discuss and dialogue withthem to erase all doubts. For your information, I have learned more from myTeacher with one on one dialogues then and there than from reading scriptures,or listening to one way talks. Above all Burn with the longing not to rest untilyou unfold the mystery of WHAT you are, the world you live in and God.5) If you are sincere the universe will conspire to give you this Knowledgewhich burns away all conditioning-karmas, and sets you free.Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt------------------------Vineetaji, You ask a very interesting question. It depends on one's own level of "maturity"---a very mis-understood word.Maturity does not mean total Vairagya, it means doing that which is necessary at that point in time, dispaasionately. As in, it does not mean one should give up the society and live in the forest or away from society, it means doing whatever needs to be done with "equanimity", while living in the society. Swami Dayananda has a great example.There is a balloon in the room, and there are 3 people---a 3 yr old child, an 8 yr old child, and an adult----you. The 8 yr old wants to play with the balloon, but the 3 yr old also wants it too. If the 8 yr old takes it, the 3 yr old wants it right away and will also cry. So, the 8 yr old lets him play with it. As soon as the 3 yr old leaves the room, the 8 yr old takes the balloon, until the 3 yr old comes back, and he gives the balloon back to him ! You play with the balloon with the 3 yr old, as if you are also 3 yrs old. When he is out of the room, if invited, you also play with the 8 yr old, as if you are 8 yrs old, and when the two kids are out of the room, you may or may not play with the balloon, even if it is in the room and both the children are out !! The 3 yr old is a balloon-Sansaaree--it means everything to him, and cannot live without it. The 8 yr old is a balloon-Tyagee, who can flit in and out of a balloon-sansaar ! he has done a tyaag but is still attached to it !! You on the other hand is a balloon-Sanyaasee. It means nothing to you, but you can still play with the children without becoming attached to it, and if they are not there, it can remain in a corner. Let us say, you are a Wall Street type, who has now after reading become a Tyagee. You are still attached to the Sansaar, but can get out of it. By constantly doing things dispassionately, you will become a Sanyaasee, while living in the Society, and eventually may teach this to your friends and family. There is an obligation even to a Sanyaasee. The obligation is to teach. It does not die with the person, but is transmitted to posterity, by teaching. According to Swami Dayananda, you must Teach only a "qualified" person, who is desirous of this knowledge, and has become a Tyagee and seeks this knowledge. So, you can do it Vinitaji. And you should. The Wall streeter is also performing only a job. That job should be done appropriately, without trying to fleece or cheat his clients. His / Her advice should be appropriate, and if in the course of time, he or she does mak a lot of money, there are enough charities and educational institutions in the world that can benefit from the largesse of such a proper person, who is bound to help "just and proper" institutions, such as schools for the blind, or education of the disenfranchised, health care of the poor or whatever helps the society. This help should come without any strings. Help for the sake of help only. The Lord passes the wealth through you to others. Durgesh Mankikar,MD-Dear sadhaks, In fewest words,permit narinder to send to youthis missile of love"Go beyond words ".............Let not words become a trap, or a snareAnd the only way to the Stllness of your Being the only way to The Beyond ............................. IsMeditationMeditate, meditate, meditateMeditate twice a day , And if that is not possible; At least , ONCE a day !!!!!AUMnarinder bhandari---PRIOR POSTINGIt is Grace and yet for Grace to be, one must have true longing for God and God aloneSophia-----In the words of Pujya Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the root cause for not actualising the message of the Bhagavan is that we do things against once spiritual progress due to attachment to desire for enjoyment and pleasure. Attachment to desire for enjoyments is the greatest obstacle in Self / God Realization. When there is intense desire for enjoyment of pleasures, then giving it up appears to be very difficult, rather impossible. A spiritual aspirant is totally independent in giving up attachment to enjoyment of pleasures. He can give this attachment up through thought, inquiry and reflection. By thinking / inquirying, he can come to the understanding that he wants happiness that has no shortage or limitation, and that never ends."Yam labdhvaa chaaparam laabham manyate naadhikam tatah;yaasminnisthato na dukhen gurnaapi vichaalyatetam vidhyaadukhsam yog viyogam yogasanjitam. " (Gita 6:22-23)"Having gained which state, he does not reckon any other gain greater than that, and wherein established, he is not shaken even by the greatest affliction.this separation from the assumed union with pain, is called Yoga."Human beings are blessed with immense ability to think, reflect and discriminate between truth and untruth. If he chooses to not think, then it is his mistake and error. It is his lack of prudence and attention to what is important.It is a rule that through the enjoyment of pleasures, the object enjoyed is destroyed and at the same time it leads to the enjoyer's downfall and decline. Just like with passion and desire when one indulges in wealth and material goods then that money is destroyed (used up) and one falls down. When importance of wealth, desire,greed, attachment, inertness, slavery etc. comes in him, then it leads to his downfall. When one indulges in enjoyment of food and eating, not only is food consumed and destroyed, but one takes a fall. The increased desire for enjoying foods and increased attachment to food is a sure downfall.-- Paritala Gopi KrishnaShree Hari Ram RamWecome back, Paritala Gopi Krishnaji. After long time... it is good to hear from you.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram----------------------------Dear Sadak,Because one is stuck by a life pattern by his previous Karma account. A cart puller in most cases live and die just like any ordinary man. A high politician lives and dies evolved in that pattern of life. So each one is placed in a particular form Human, Animal, Bird etc to undergo Karma Bandh, says Bagavan to Yudhava in Yudhava Geetha. We see people has NO chance or chance given due to place of birth or under bad circumstances to say Om Namo Narayana/ Sri Rama/Namashivaya. To say it says that one needs previous Virtue (Puniya Pala) says Sri Vishnu Puran. To get that Virtue one gets it accidentally going to temple or meeting a Guru,or a day in Sat Sangh. From there the Virtue grows multi fold.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan Shree HariRam RamSathyanarayanji, you say "people have NO chance or chance given ... .to say the name of God", but Swamiji says human life is only a "saadhan yoni" and all human beings are entitled and eligible for liberation, God Realization, salvation, moksha etc. Can you share some insights on why possibly differing views ?From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------Attachment to worldly things prevents us from following the true path even when we know it. Through sadhna, satsang, sewa and meditation it is possible to get rid of attachment.Hari Shanker Deo-----------------------Bhagvada Geeta Ch 3/ sh 33." Even a wise man acts in accordance with his own nature; beings will follow their own nature; what can restraint do ?" me thinks, the answer to Vineetas query is contained in the shloka above . At any point of time, we are what we are. We cannot have been otherwise. It is something to do with the paradox of Destiny and Effort. The desiring, wishing and willing, the effort, the Doing and the operation of the immutable Law of karma.... all come into play ................ to compel us to be what we are and act only according to our own nature ( swabhava) at any particular point of time. Actually, what vineeta would , perhaps, like to understand how to go beyond one's limitations of being at a certain time. She might find her answer in a related post by narinder on 01 Feb 09 Re: How can I Remember God and by True Sentiments for Attaining Salvation?AUM narinder bhandari----------Dear Sadhaks,To make your knowing reflected in actionthe way, the only wayISMeditationA s an answer to all the questions that arise in the Mind,One answer, perhaps, that I suggest to youIsPut the question aside for a Momentand instead, let the question be" WHO IS IT THAT SEEKS TO KNOW ?"Begin your search withinBegin with yourselfBegin with yourselfWho you are !Are you the body ?Does the ' body ' say , " I am. " Or, Are you the thought, " I am thisâ€¦. or â€¦that " " I want thisâ€¦ orâ€¦. that " " I donot like this â€¦. Or â€¦ that "Are you the Mind that speaks and seeks all !Or,Are you the intellect passing judgements ?Who, Sir, are you ?Seek within, if you want to know.Sit down in a quiet spot. And, watch your thoughts.Thoughts about the Body,Thoughts about the Mind,Judgements galore !Watch, just watch. Do nothing, but just watch.And then, Allow the primal Energy,Which was manifest in all thoughts,To manifest as it's own awareness !By just watchingAnd, becoming the watcher, the seer, The witness of all.By stopping your chatterAnd becoming silent, just becoming silent ! all is achieved.............. so say the Wise Watch, Become a Witness, a SeerThat is, If you so want ! If you want to enter the space of BlissWhich is your ownWhich does not die If you want your knowingTo be reflected in action, in conduct Ah !This One Answer is valid, though, If you are prepared to ' hear 'With your preoccupation with 'This and That ' set asideThis and That. How and Why.For ONE Moment . This Moment Now.NOW, my dear !!!!AUM narinder bhandari ------PRIOR POSTINGShree Hari|| Ram Ram ||Dear Vineetaji, thanks for asking a very important question.Swamiji Maharaj has explained in detail the answer to this question. in his discourses. The answer to this question is contained in Gitaji also.Six noteworthy points (not necessarily independent) which act as a stopper to spiritual progress:1. We have assumed strong relationship with the persons and the objects of the world, the sense of 'ME' and 'MINE'. Our deepest desire is to draw the pleasure from the world, this is totally misplaced thought since the world does not have the capacity to supply us sustained Sukha (pleasure) because Gitaji is calling this world as a Dukhalya (House of suffering, ref: Gita: 8-15).2. Love of money, the assumption it is the sure ticket to attain ultimate sustaining happiness, people become so sure of it that they are ready to commit a crime to get the money. 3. We have divided our life into two separate compartments, (Adhyatam / Sadhna) part and the activities of the day to day life. It is a common observation that potential spiritual aspirants work hard to gain more and more bookish knowledge (information only) and listen to the many discourses without changing their way of life. This knowledge serves only one purpose - to boost the ego, the person claims, I know and many others do not know. In fact this knowledge proves to be a burden, person is ready to unloaded this information to whoever he can find to listen to.4. The deep attachment to Bhoga (pleasure) and Sangrah (accumulation) does not allow us to have a single pointed-ness or focus for sustained effort for Sadhna (Ref. Gitaji 2/41-44).5. The assumption that Maya is the culprit for our deep attachment, the relationships of the world do not leave us, actually it is just the reverse we do not want to leave the relationships.6. Lack of urgency, the earnestness and sincerity (lagan) to pursue the spiritual path. Meera says "mere to Giridhar Gopal dusra na koi" Nothing else was important to her.|| Ram Ram ||Humble regards,Madan Kaura----------- Hari OmVineetaji ! You have asked a beautiful question. In fact we "know" but we do not"admit" ." Ham jaanate hain par ham maanate nahin". We know that whoever takes birth , dies. But when some one near and dear dies, we start crying. Why? Because inside, the importance of world is still there. We want to become happy, sure, but with worldly things. That then is not ANANDA. We want to gain knowledge, sure, but with books and of outer world. That then is not CHIT. We want to live forever, sure, but with this body. That then is not SAT. Desire for becoming SATCHIDANANDA is there in all of us, but erroneously we want to fulfil that desire with reference to the body/world/worldly things/worldly knowledge. Inside us, the importance of WORLD continues.Our acceptance thus is not firm and well placed. We melt before the worldly enticements. We are not able to relinquish deep rooted desire for "SUKH BHOG and SANGRAH' ( Consumption and accumulation) arising out of body and world.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------Ram Ram,your question, "why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know and have fully accepted that THIS IS IT"it is half true, because you just know THIS IS IT, you haven't accepted it. There are few ifs and buts which still remain.We just collect datas in our brain. We don't implement them. Had you accepted THIS IS IT, there is nothing easier than this. Because you need not do any thing. Yes, if you don't accept THAT IS IT, then it's the toughest thing. I could not understand why people have problem accepting it. Though it is the only truth. Yes it is the only truth.Ashok Goenka--------------------------- Dear Vineeta, many answers to this query have been given ................. shastras can be quoted on them............ and all are true .......................... But the two simple answers which bring Joy to narinder's heart ,............. which make him aware of the paradox of action and destiny , and also lead the resolution of the paradox, narinder gives below............. Ans 1.narinder cannot at this moment quote the exact reference, but he remembers reading two shalokas in the scriptures ..................... ONE: Till the Time comes for you to meditate, you will not be able to do soTWO ( next shaloka ) : BUT, if you think that the Time has not yet come, it will never come even in a thousand aeons ! Answer 2. Nisargadatta Maharaj was once asked the question asto why of all the thousands of disciples of his Guru, only he moved into enlightenment . His reply was , " This is one question that no enlightened person can truly answer. One can only say, ' perhaps my time had come '.....or, ' it was Grace ' ..." ah, dear sadhaks, who think that they are the Doers ( and almost everyone is into Doing, whereas the Truth is that you were never the Doer, only God is . ), all that they can do is to strive and strive ............ the results are only in God's hands ! Bh. Gt. Ch, 2/47 is applicable to one's sadhna too ! All the scriptures guide the Sadhaks as to how to ' DO' ( with what attitude, with what understanding ) so that the Ignorance of their being the Doers dies ............. and, the realisation of the Self or God being the only Doer dawns . It is 'not doing ; that is so peaceful, so blissful. That is why Krishna says , " Just surrender to me "( GT Ch. 18/66) But, surrender , too, is not a Doing..... it is an happening , it is Grace.. ...... ah ! Osho, the enlightened master, has said:, " People ask, what to do to move into Not-doing. There is no way. Yet I shall tell you what to do..................When you read the scriptures, or get the answers from the Knowers of Truth.............. sit down and see the facticity of the truth read or heard. Just close your eyes and look at your own Life ............. watch it ............. weight the various incidents of your Life in the facticity of the answer or the Truth . In that watching, the Doing will, one day, get dropped by itself. The true understanding of the answer or the truth will 'happen' by itself ." AUM narinder bhandari-----My dandavat pranams to all in this forum..... Your question, Vineeta, is a sincere and direct inquiry....what is the difficulty in executing the orders of the ancient sadhus, gurus, etc? I have personally found, in years gone by, that I had to analyze carefully who I took influence from. I say "influence" rather than guidance, because we can be influenced by persons whom we don't necessarily even go to for guidance! We become affected by comments, even when it is sometimes just a passerby, we might overhear a conversation, see something on TV, or, the worst of all, go to a counselor whom we think, possibly, (under illusion) because of the title, "professional" has some edge on giving us instruction. I have found that maturity is a matter of developing our own strength to know that we want to follow the standards of the scriptures, even if it is not popular, not seen as modern, "cool", or socially "what's happening". It is a commitment to ourselves, to the Lord, and not to the changing material world in general.praying my words are not a cause of pain to anyone,Mahalaksmi Dasi----Priy sadhika jiIt is difficult due to lack of practice. Like a right handed person faces difficulty to perform same work with left hand. Although both hands are equal & one have full knowledge & believe one can do it But even then with left hand one feels difficult to do the same thing what one is doing by right hand. It is practice.Thanxraja gurdasani--------------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

May 27, 2009

Dear SadhaksI am new to this forum in the capacity of an initiator of a topic However ihave d to this group for quite a while and I want to congratulate allconcerned in creating this platform to allow people like me to enrich myspiritual spaceI have been a student of Vedanta for the past 10 years and fully accept andsurrender to our highest ancient PhilosophyMy question is why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know andhave fully accepted that THIS IS ITPlease enlighten....vineeta malpani----------------------NEW POSTINGNamaste.

The message of GEETA is simple and direct, but the practice or implementation by human beings is not.

One, perchance, in thousands of men, strives for

perfection; and one perchance, among the blessed ones, striving thus,

knows Me in reality GEETA 7:3

Only the pure devotees can know something of the inconceivable

transcendental qualities in Krsna, in the cause of all causes, in His

omnipotence and opulence, and in His wealth, fame, strength, beauty,

knowledge and renunciation, because Krsna is benevolently inclined to

His devotees. He is the last word in Brahman realization, and the

devotees alone can realize Him as He is. Therefore it is said:

atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaihsevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah

"No one can understand Krsna as He is by the blunt material senses. But He reveals Himself to the devotees, being pleased with them for their

transcendental loving service unto Him." (Padma Purana)

To actualise, or live, the message of GEETA, we must become men and women of "steady

wisdom".

Lord Krishna

said, "O Arjuna, when a man abandons all the desires of the mind and is

satisfied in the Self by the Self; then he is said to be a person of

steadfast wisdom." He whose mind is not shaken by adversity, who does not

hanker after happiness, who has become free from affection, fear, and

wrath, is indeed the Muni of steady wisdom

He who is everywhere unattached, not pleased at receiving good, nor vexed at evil, his wisdom is fixed

When also, like the tortoise its limbs, he can completely withdraw the senses from their objects, then his wisdom becomes steady

GEETA 2:55 to 58

That man who lives devoid of longing,

abandoning all desires, without the sense of 'I' and 'mine,' he attains

to peace. GEETA 2:71

Ram Ram,

Deosaran Bisnath-------Every Indian knows about the path of spiritual growth, but due to

entanglement with the worldly pleasures and desires is unable to

cultivate the dispassion and equanamity required to have a spiritual

bent of mind. Unless we control our thoughts we cannot meditate and

think about higher things. We know that our human life is the rarest of

rare,given after 84 lakh births into many species. Only humans have the

capacity of thought and reasoning. We are uniquely poised to progress

into merging with the Paramatma or the Higher Self and avoiding the

painful cycle of endless births and deaths. This path is not easy. Our

Gurus have undergone years of gruelling tapas or samadhi and only then

have seen the light. We can at least try to follow them.Hari Shanker Deo -------Shree Hari Ram Ram Hari Shanker Deo ji, If what you say is correct, then why would Lord Krsna say in Gita 9:31 - With such a determination and exclusive aim, even the worst of worst sinners can attain saint hood (i.e. realize Bhagavan) very quickly "kshipram bhavati dharamaatmaa". (Gita 9:31). Lord Krsna would not say "kshipram" if it required grueling tapas, samadhi etc. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram ---------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadhak,Your question is worth following.Every sadhak knows that even reading one sloka ( verse )of Bhagavat Gita will helps s.How many of us read even one verse.I am reading one chapter My friend was reading the whole of the Bhagvata Geeta I know its results in my life.t is through our intution that we feel its power.Please follow its teachings.Truly yours Shankerprasad S Bhatt-------Hari OmYou are right, Devji Maharaj. But then "sadhana" necessarily implies "putting the ideals into practice". We all in this forum deliberate this transformation of "theory" into "practice" only. Once we accept - Yes! These ideals can be lived. Why they would appear in the Scriptures in the first place , if they are not practical?- then the path becomes very smooth. Our Chairman Raja Gurudasaniji calls it to be "AIM". If you fix your object to be - live ideals of Gitaji in practical life, be certain we are on right path.Then as rightly stated by SS Bhattji , all Saints and Sages, Ramakrishna Paramhansa, Swami Vivekanand, Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, Satsanga, Scriptures will point you the way forward.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B---------------------Shree Hari-Brother Vyas,Namaskar:Your short message on death of Ego drew my focus, I saw sound advice in yourthoughts.I went through a period of ego destruction,(I might add I am not free of ityet), and yes methods of its demise can be manifold.Without going into details, Grace seems to be part of it,(I was told this by theOne who helped me), I honestly did not realize what she was speaking of tillmuch later.The engine that drove this process, was desire for the Truth.(maybe that is theCore the Seed as it were to all spiritual paths).The outcome was not seeing the aged, the afflicted physical or emotional, thepoor.....as anything but a beloved of creations of 'The Divine'.Just reflecting.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor)----------------------narinder thanks Vyas jee for his deep interest in helping him to progress in his spiritual Life.ah, my friends,dear sadhakas true ......nari just asked of himself today, this Moment Nowwondered .... this moment now......if he had any more to say ..............and he fell silent ...........any mental positions, nari ? noneany teachings from you for anyone ? Noneany message to anyone .......? none .. !!!!and ......this moment now................... any words for the self, for narinder .........?" keep working on yourself , narinder .........all that nari has had to say ..............all that came to him as a blessing, as joy and peace, as love , as wisdomfrom the wise, as speech from silence,lovingly has nari shared with narinder ............he has nothing more to add..............all that he had to say, has been said ............his heart, with love, joy and satisfaction of being, is filled ........................much have you given to him, narinder ..........and even more from God he recieved ................filled to the brim is nari .... and his vessel is now totally emptyrevelling in timeless silence , his head he lays at Krishna's feet ................ "nari's final words to thee are ....................." Keep working on yourself, narinder ............ be yourself .............love yourself, narinder, ............love yourself wisely ....................keep working on yourself narinder and pay heed to what the knowers of Truth lovingly do say...let not your Mind come too much into play ...........all the buddhas are smiling on you............. and are ever guiding you ..........just inhale their fragrance ......... holding your Mind from any comments , or judgement ...and should you still feel the need for succour ............go, lay your head at the feet of the saints and sagesand wash their feet with tears of Love .............aapo deepo bhava, narinderBlessings of the Buddhas be with thee ........."and friends....................nari, narinder, the self, you and i, i and you ............... are not -twohave, in truth, never been TWO !AUMnarinder bhandari----------------------PRIOR POSTINGNamasteTo answer your question, the message of the Gita is an ideal, it is what one strives to but it is not for everyday practicality of life. There are many deviations in human personality given the geneology, environment that one is socialized in, personality traits etc. Therefore, this is a set of principles that can transform one if applied. However, one has to transform ones way of seeing, thinking and living for this to bear fruit, for this to occur consistent efforts have to be made but it is not something that can be internalized and practiced in one shot. There are many circumstances that in some instances force one to act contrary to what is taught.Best RegardsDev Maharaj------------------------Hari OmSadhak Narinder's views about "spiritual ego" are worth reading. Messages like this are beneficial and take forward Satsanga. The real "spiritual ego" however continues to be "insistence on the methodology undertaken by Sadhak himself" - say meditation, or karma yoga etc. Real Sadhak will never say- "this method is only method" !But again he ought to be very careful in expressions. Let it not flow unless when in poetic mood. Consider the opening remarks:QuoteThe deep desire for the Death of the False in us, the Death of ego, the Death of the self as it is at the Present Moment, is what makes a seeker True !UnquoteNarinderji ! There is no false existing in us. Don't "accept" the existence of "False" in you. No amount of efforts/meditation/knowledge/sadhana can remove false/faults from you , if you accept them to be with you and then try to remove it. Reason: The very acceptance is faulty.I hope my pin pointing subtle areas for your benefit and for bringing out the truth will be taken in right spirit by you. We all are here in this Satsanga to advance spiritually.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B----------------------Dear vineetaji: NamasteIt is an excellent question why we cannot accept the world "AS IT IS" and move on. My understanding is also very simple based on a simple example. . Let us say a group of three people have seen a rose bush with lot of beautiful flowers. One persons get elated looking at it and wants to enjoy the beauty for ever looking from a distance, another looks at the thorns and feels dejected that he cannot get them easily and take them home and another does not even recognize that it existed on his way. The object is the same but gives rise to three different reactions. Why? Because each one projected his own mind on to the rose bush from his past impressions of roses. World is what we project our impressions on it and that is the problem why we cannot follow Gita's message although we understood it as a simple philosophy. In simple terms the world is what we want to it look like. The first one who appreciated the beauty from a distance is the one whom we should follow initially in our pursuit of looking at the world as it IS. Later on in the practice, we should develop dispassion in the sense whether we see this beautiful rose bush or heap of garbage it should not evoke any positive or negative reaction. Equanimity is central theme of Gita in my simple understanding and can be practiced easily if we put our mind to it every day, every minute of existence.May the wisdom of looking at the 'World AS IT IS' prevail to reach the state of Bliss we all seek.B.Vempaty---------------------Dear SadhakEven Vedantic truths are revealed in this Bhagvata Geeta.For more association with Vedant join Vedantic Society for books,lectures and other programs.This discussion will surely help you.Read the example of Mahatma Gandhi. He found reliefs after reading and reciting Bhagvat Geeta every day.I read Chapter XV of Gita every day.Have faith,devotion and concistency in reading Bhagvata Geeta and you will surely experience difference in your life.Read all books written by Ramakrishna Paramhansa and Swami Vivekanand besides participating in this group discussion.Wishing all success to youï¿½Truly yoursï¿½S S Bhatt---------------------Dear sadaks,One knows THIS IS IT, cannot experience. One knows air craft/train/bus. Can it be driven until trained. Semi trained also risky/dangerous. One knows petrol, but can it be got, without acquiring through knowledge how to get from earth and it requires team work.Now that you know GOD exits and man has all the ability to become Godly. But knowledge(Gyana), skill (sadana), Vairag (Determination) does not happen though the mind tells one should become GODLY. To gain unworthy fame one works day and night. To gain infinity it is not easy.In collage one studies but practical is vital to get through the exams. To get VITAL what sacrifice one does?Example: Sidharam at teen age had strong desire (desire tool used here) to see Bagavan Shiva. He was told serveral ways to attain Godlyness, but it failed. He decided to jump off a cliff as he thought his human birth is waste. He jumped, but suddenly he realized some one lifting him off from the fall. On the cliff top he was placed and saw Bagavan Shiva and Parvathi. Visit HIS jeeva samadhi 2 Km from Sholapur.Baktha Gora cut his both hands for a promise on Bagavan Vital. Bagavan came in disguise and worked as servant in Gora house and at end he realized it was Sri Krishna. To get that status one need to renounce totally and surrender. Bagavan waited until Sidharam jumped off and Gora cut his hands. Sadaks note Bagavan never came just before jumping or cutting hands. Action done. The untimate Karma pala (renouncing action) bears the experiencing GOD.Bagavan said to be experienced by Gyana, which is in Sabdha roop ( devine Sound mentioned in scripts) Ref: Upanashid and Bagavath.Sotra/Mantra: 1) Hare Rama Hare Krishna. 2) Sri rama rama Ramethi- Ramerama Mano rame. Over period of decades sounds change like people character change. Children names are called Pinky and Tinky. Varun or Marun.Keethana or Keethi. These sounds have no divine touch. Those days, they called Krishna/Rama/Govinda/ Mukundha/Purushothama. Slowly it changed to Krishn, Ram/ Govind, Mukundh, Purushoth. Each Sabdha (sound) has specific effect. To day still worse. If one does Havon Kundh/Yagna, it can be noted the sound, Rama/Krishna/Kesava Etc. Earlier I posted the important of the letters "a", which is today left and called Ram. Got accustomed (Deep Vasana of Sound) one does not want to change and says it is Bavana importance. For Rama (God sake) sake, for HIS love sake can we change? Then how it is possible to elevate to infinity with hidden ego/not recognisable ego.Bear with me sadaks.B.Sathyanarayan-------------------it is because siddhant is an ideal condition whereas in practical there are several deviations which distract us.we always see others actions & try to imitate or follow. it is instinctive since childhood. therefore it is a saying that parvarish mus be good. people living in ashrams follow their gurus and make their life. similarly in home also child follow maata pita.In manas prabhuji says GUN YAH UBHAY NA DEKHIYE DEKHIYA SO ABIBEK.Raja Gurdasani-----------------------PRIOR POSTINGShree HariRam RamSwamiji says - It is difficult to actualize the message of Bhagavad Gita only due to our deep attachment to sense enjoyments! God Realization is not difficult, but giving up attachment to enjoyment and sense pleasures is difficult.The Lord has said in the Gita :"Bhogaisvaryaprasaktaanam tayaapahrtacetasaamvyavasaayaatmikaa buddhih samaadhau na vidheeyate.""No mind that is lured by sense-objects and engrossed in sensual enjoyments and glory of material possessions can ever enter, O, Partha, the state of contemplation and divine communiontranscendental." *He who is intensely attached to sense-enjoyments and acquisition of material things, cannot even conceive or decide on moving towards God. There is no resolve to turn towards God, and when this resolve is not strong enough, where is the question of God-Realization ?Meera Das, Ram Ram----------dear sadhaks , The deep desire for the Death of the False in us, the Death of ego, the Death of the self as it is at the Present Moment, is what makes a seeker True ! A true Seeker's yearning , pining , thirsting heart gasping for Breath , as it were !!!!!His food and drink, thereafter, are the words of the Saints and Sages the Knowers of Truth !His Joy and Happiness lie in the experiences that lead his Mind into Silence Into the No- Mind state !Sometimes, the spiritual ego becomes a real barrier to our spiritual progress ! The thoughts of Maitreya Ishwara below are for narinder a real Joy to meditate on !SPRITUAL EGOthe spiritual ego is subtle, cunningsuperior, inferior and secretive.the spiritual ego develops because egohas to live somewhere until it dissolves.if you are a seeker of truth, the egoidentifies with your quest and can becomeserious and secretly superior.the inner reality of seekers is neverquite as beautiful as the ideals of their traditionand they decorate their ego so it looks a little nicer.this is a common trap for many seekersand one from which it is difficult to escape.authenticity and playfulness are the antidote.for this you will need support from thosewho are already living in this way. when the ideal is authenticity, not purity, youare free to be yourself.authenticity and playfulness give you thespace to face yourself as you are and toconfront your darkness consciously.this conscious self-encounter brings purityindirectly, without the hypocritical burdenof a spiritually pure ego.~Maitreya Ishwara AUM narinder ---------PRIOR POSTINGWhy is it so difficult to actualise the message of the Bhagvad Geeta ?Simple ... overwhelming IGNORANCE (lack of clarity) and stubborn INERTIA(hesitance to change)... on top of all the towering notion of ownership onignorance in the name of knowledge and on inertia in the name of volition ...the ego ...Respects.Naga Narayana.------------------------------Dear sadak,A Sadak question: ""why is it (Vedantha) so difficult to live that philosophy when you know and have fully accepted that THIS IS IT"". Because IT is beyond any sense or senses of ordinary human. It is not important whether you fully accept or not. IT is to be known by Gyana and not by any means. To get Gyana Vedhant is only theory, but vedhant has also to be practiced, by Vairag (Determination) -surrender- dissolving 6 bad Gunas,- becoming totally Satvik, which one will face difficulties. Sri Mikeji words ,""Supremely Dear am I to him AND he is dear to me"". What does it mean? No matter how deep you may do anything divine, it does not work that easy. It is HIS (God) sankalp (Wish) that can transform one.Now all know that Yudhistra and 4 brothers were silent in spite of Droupathi being disrobed and maximum insulting words and physical torcher (Removing their crowns, robes etc) for what? To maintain Dharma. To such Dharmic person Arjuna, it was the effort and grace of Bagavan by saying Geetha which transformed him. So however Dharmic, strong, wealthy one may be, it is HIS sankalp that can make wonders. Another Example: What Ajamil Do in his life time? He only called his son Narayana at his last breath. Fire when touched knowingly or unknowingly burns. So the NAM of Narayana said has effect of Vishnu Dhoot appear and take him to Vaikunt. That is HIS Sankalp said in Geetha about "Anthima Kal Prayana Samaye" I think 8th Volume. I don't think Ajamil knows anything about Vedhant. There are 2 Dharm Bagavan has. One Ordinary Dharm and other is Bagavath Dhram. In Bhagavath Dhram HE there no restriction to make HIS sankalp to any oneJai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan.----------------------narinder , verily , prayed to Kanha To allow the Mind to die to thought ......... and krishna Beloved ........... who answers all prayers replied ............. " Die, narinder, die ............ death is the WayLove and Hate, Life and Death ............ drop your Mind, and know ............. Love is the Way , Silence is the Way, One -ness is the Way Meditation and Death are not -two.... Meditation is the Way .......... Go beyond words, nari, go beyond words Dropping all doubts , and all assertions is the WAY ............................... " ah, friends, the doings of lifetime after lifetime, came to an end,came to end, when my Beloved smiledthe desire for knowlrege and knowing died,when my Beloved smiled !!sowhat can nari say now, and how , pray .........except to be silent ............Silence so Blissful, ah !And from this silence,now blossom words , that are not words ..............how can they be words ............. they could only be Silence !!go beyond words, my friends, go beyond words MEDITATION is the Way ...............Meditate, meditate, meditate , till the self , in Grace, bestows on you ......the knowing of the Self !ah, the Self is ONE, how could it be Two ?AUM narinder------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari-Dear Vineeta,You have studied the Vedanta, and fully accept 'THIS IS IT', and you fullyaccept and surrender to this 'Ancient Philosophy'.Buddha said, "I point at the moon, and you look at my finger".Your question is,"... why is it so difficult to live that philosophy".The philosophy must be pointing you, guiding you ultimately to Moksha.It is the finger that points. I have studied various traditions overthe decades, and realized by stepping back as it were, they are all pointing tothe same place.I have found that the Bhagvad Geeta is the most connecting of all that I haveread, (that's the best way that I can put it), Arjuna and Shree Krishna comeover so strongly, that the corridors of time seem not to exist.May I offer you these wonderful words:B.G. Ch.7These four kinds of virtuous menDo worship Me, O Arjuna:The distressed, seekers of welfare,Seekers of knowledge, and the wise. (16)Of them, the wise man, e'er steadfast,Devoted to the One, excels;Supremely dear am I to him,And he is dear to Me, as well. (17)All these indeed are exalted,But I see the man of wisdomAs My Self. He, with mind steadfast,Abides in Me, the Supreme Goal. (18)At the end of his many birthsThe wise man takes refuge in Me.He knows: "All is Vasudeva.How very rare is that great soul! (19)With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor-----------------------Hari OmAs always , Vasudev Sathyanarainji reflects, in his latest message, purity and innocence , a hall mark of real sadhak. He reflects here a concern for general !He says:But how many get chance to atleast listen to this? Only hand full. Swamiji has said the words , "Entitled & Eligible" to liberate.Vasudev Sathyanaraiji ! Consider that "entitlement and eligibilty" to be CHANGING from "I am of the world, world is mine"TOI am of God, Only God is mine, Nothing else is mineMERE TO GIRDHAR GOPAL , DOOSARO NA KOIMatter ends. All scriptures, saints , verses of Gitaji, Upanishads, Vedas, get reconciled. All subtle confusions get cleared, all dilemmas go away- the very ego , the very one's SELF changes for ever, never to change again !! Becomes Divine forever.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------Dear Vyas jee,Thank you for your thoughts ..You are right !The Self ( atma) is NOT the doer . Ch. 13/ 30.All human beings are eligible to attain God and have the freedom of choice whether or not to do so.. a freedom granted to them by the Lord.. the freedom called "free-will"The Self is One ................ Ek Omkar ..........there are no two selfs, ah ! when all is Govinda, then ,who is the seeker, and who the sought ......... pray !when all is One,when there is action in action, and inaction in action ..........when both are One , where is the Paradox of being, pray !If yes is No... and No is Yes ............ when in Love they embrace ,where is the paradox , pray !If Silence is the only Reality, beyond all words ............ IF , when the self is known, all becomes known ............IF all the doing culminates in Not-Doing,who is the doer , and who the non-doer, pray .....when dancing stops, where is the dance , and where is the dancer ......... ?? when Mind rests in deep sleep , in the embrace of the Un-known,who is it that is no more, and who, ever and ever, the One ever known ??ah, narinder, the not-knower , does not know .............BUT.......... Krishna Beloved says ............... "I do nothing at all", thus would be the harmonized knower of Truth think, seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, eating, going, sleeping, breathing, Speaking, letting go, seizing, opening and closing his eyes convinced that the senses move among the sense objects " (Gita Shlokas 5/8 and 5/9; Gita 13/ 31, 13/32, and Gita 14/3, )The reward, Kanha promised for Sadhna is freedom from the bonds of Action, yielding good and evil "fruits" ( Gita 9/28) narinder , verily , prayed to Kanha To allow the Mind to die to thought ......... and krishna Beloved ........... who answers all prayers replied ............. " Die, narinder, die ............ death is the WayLove and Hate, Life and Death ............ drop your Mind, and know ............. Love is the Way , Silence is the Way, One -ness is the Way Meditation and Death are not -two.... Meditation is the Way .......... Go beyond words, nari, go beyond words Dropping all doubts , and all assertions is the WAY ............................... "Narinder BhandariPRIOR POSTINGNamaste ,Swamiji saying Saadhan Yoni (a birth for achieving and accomplishing it's goal). Yoni means womb. In any animal womb if a jeeva is born (Except for extreme rare case), that Jeeva does not have intellect. Has only instinct. Such Jeeva born from animal yoni, just very clearly and correctly washes away it` s karmas, only but not it` s vasana (impressions remaining in the mind from past births/action). Going through few animal births by just allowing people to kick it, kill it Etc attains human birth. Due to these animals performing their duties (Say an Ox pulling a cart, Cow giving milk, goat/hen giving meat-service to humans is Saadhana done by these animals) gets right to be born as human called Saadhana Yoni. Only a lady Human Yoni can give room to a Jeeva to continue Saadhana for liberation. As humans people get chance to learn Geetha, Srimath Bagavath, get blessings of Swamiji Etc and seek God. Only as human the liberation is possible said in many Puran and Upanashid as a concept. This concept only Swamiji says "Saadha Yoni" and further Swamiji has said to Sadaks that You are THAT, means you (Human) have all the provisions and body designed in such a manner to think, act, meditate and seek God. Such is birth of human very precious. (Maanusha Dheham Dullabam)As Swamiji said that all humans are entitled and eligible for liberation, Moksha is abosolutely true. But this truth is not known to many. Let it be begger or king or politician, or social server or Ghrahastha, anyone can know this truth and read Geetha and practice dharmic life. Almost human race know that there is a eye opener Bagavath Geetha. But how many get chance to atleast listen to this? Only hand full. Swamiji has said the words , "Entitled & Eligible" to liberate. A student gets eligible and entitled with Scholarship to do Ph.D. But he does not study and goes hay with pleasure of world due to teen age. As human, in childhood play, teenage wonders and pleasures and at old age Chintha Sakthaha Ref:(Bajagovindam) Man can sing Bagavan names, dance of HIS glory, DO Bajan on GOVIND Etc which he is eligible and has all the freedom to do, but does not do. So Punarapi Maranam, Punarapi Jananam---.Virochna and Indra asked Bramaji who they are. Baramaji said, '" you are THAT SAT" go and see in still water. Virochana seeing his own image decided he is God and ended up in trouble. Indra seeing his image knew that it is reflection of his roop but not Swaroop and knew that he should seek Bhraman.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan.-----------------------------Hari OmBeautiful short message by Sophiaji ! Narinderji ! couple of points of correction.... on your message in favour of "dependence" of a human being and " GOD IS THE DOER".No to Both.. All Human beings are Entirely Independent and Eligible to attain God ! andNeither God nor Pure Self are in any way doers (Karta). Jeeva (embodied soul) when he "assumes" himself to be doer, becomes "doer" because , whoever is "bhokta" (enjoyer) is a Karta (doer) . In reality, there is constant activity going on in the matter. Whoever forms "affinity" with it MUST become doer. If Jeeva is not doer, and instead God is doer, entire Karma Yoga becomes redundant. Verses upon verses starting from "karmanye vaadhikaraste" will become redundant.Human life has been given to you only for changing your SVABHAV / Nature / attitude. No other creature except a human being has that capacity/ privilege and competence. I would say even demi-gods (devatas) don't have that capacity. Question of animals etc having that capacity does not arise. Jeeva (human) has complete independence granted to him for changing his ego, his svabhav and turning towards God. He has "conscience" especially given to him, to help him in that.One must find out first as to why human life is stated to be rarest of the rare births? Why even Devatas want to become humans? Why? If a human is toy and everything is pre destined then what is the difference between a human and an animal? Human life is not a BHOG YONI (a birth for enjoyment of pleasures), it is Karma/Yog Yoni (a birth for selfless service / realizing Union). Here you are fully fully independent.Because in human life only you can change your "self" from worldly to divine. I REPEAT IN NO OTHER LIFE FORM YOU CAN DO SO ! Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say: Human life has been given to you only for changing your svabhav.A human is not a puppet like animals. A frog can not change its svabhav but a human can. BG 3:33 quoted refers to others. It says you can't change others. To yourself , you can always. Neither fate, nor Karmas, nor Law of Karma, nor any particular situation or circumstances , nor God,nor Time, nor "assumed" absence of Grace of God, nothing can ever be a hindrance in your turning towards Him. NOTHING- I repeat. Only willingness is needed. Only longing, exclusive longing, for God is needed- as so rightly stated by Sophiaji. PURUSHARTHA is needed. (Not help of Prarabdha).Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N BDear Sadhakas, Namaste!Out of the great respect for Ancient Philosophy, one accepts it and seeminglysurrenders to it, is obviously not sufficient, right Vineetaji? Otherwise thequestion of difficult to live its message will not arise!First of all the message has to be extracted carefully, and then chewed anddigested so it becomes blood, bones, and nerves of Vineeta, then only themessage becomes alive in you and acts. THen Vineeta becomes the excuse for themessage to shine Itself!Let us see the Vedanta's Core message: You are not the body-mind basedautonomous individual endowed with doer-ship. It is mistaken identity, the rootignorance! You are limitless Conscious-Being, Impersonal Intelligence!Everything is YOU, seamless One Consciousness!This is what you are right now,not that you will become! Just realize this truth now.If this message is thoroughly understood, goes through "you", you will feel, andact from this Understanding. In other words, this Understanding will act through"you". as you.Now some practical pointers:1)Don't worry about how difficult it is to live, just relax. You are responsiblefor obtaining understanding only, not doing.2) Meditate regularly on this message: Why do I consider myself as Vineeta, andwhat does it mean? Do I have any proof that I am so and so?3) When you are satisfied that you don't have any proof you are such Vineeta asyou have been taking yourself to be, then give this messaage a chance to act bydis-identifying with Vineeta in thoughts, and deeds. Take Vineeta as instrument,though, and take good care impartially and objectively, it is vehicle to takeyou home. You must visualize Vineeta in YOU as all bodies are in you! Practicethis often.4)Use this forum to clarify doubts, don't shun them away. If you come across aliving teacher or friends who are interested in Truth, discuss and dialogue withthem to erase all doubts. For your information, I have learned more from myTeacher with one on one dialogues then and there than from reading scriptures,or listening to one way talks. Above all Burn with the longing not to rest untilyou unfold the mystery of WHAT you are, the world you live in and God.5) If you are sincere the universe will conspire to give you this Knowledgewhich burns away all conditioning-karmas, and sets you free.Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt------------------------Vineetaji, You ask a very interesting question. It depends on one's own level of "maturity"---a very mis-understood word.Maturity does not mean total Vairagya, it means doing that which is necessary at that point in time, dispaasionately. As in, it does not mean one should give up the society and live in the forest or away from society, it means doing whatever needs to be done with "equanimity", while living in the society. Swami Dayananda has a great example.There is a balloon in the room, and there are 3 people---a 3 yr old child, an 8 yr old child, and an adult----you. The 8 yr old wants to play with the balloon, but the 3 yr old also wants it too. If the 8 yr old takes it, the 3 yr old wants it right away and will also cry. So, the 8 yr old lets him play with it. As soon as the 3 yr old leaves the room, the 8 yr old takes the balloon, until the 3 yr old comes back, and he gives the balloon back to him ! You play with the balloon with the 3 yr old, as if you are also 3 yrs old. When he is out of the room, if invited, you also play with the 8 yr old, as if you are 8 yrs old, and when the two kids are out of the room, you may or may not play with the balloon, even if it is in the room and both the children are out !! The 3 yr old is a balloon-Sansaaree--it means everything to him, and cannot live without it. The 8 yr old is a balloon-Tyagee, who can flit in and out of a balloon-sansaar ! he has done a tyaag but is still attached to it !! You on the other hand is a balloon-Sanyaasee. It means nothing to you, but you can still play with the children without becoming attached to it, and if they are not there, it can remain in a corner. Let us say, you are a Wall Street type, who has now after reading become a Tyagee. You are still attached to the Sansaar, but can get out of it. By constantly doing things dispassionately, you will become a Sanyaasee, while living in the Society, and eventually may teach this to your friends and family. There is an obligation even to a Sanyaasee. The obligation is to teach. It does not die with the person, but is transmitted to posterity, by teaching. According to Swami Dayananda, you must Teach only a "qualified" person, who is desirous of this knowledge, and has become a Tyagee and seeks this knowledge. So, you can do it Vinitaji. And you should. The Wall streeter is also performing only a job. That job should be done appropriately, without trying to fleece or cheat his clients. His / Her advice should be appropriate, and if in the course of time, he or she does mak a lot of money, there are enough charities and educational institutions in the world that can benefit from the largesse of such a proper person, who is bound to help "just and proper" institutions, such as schools for the blind, or education of the disenfranchised, health care of the poor or whatever helps the society. This help should come without any strings. Help for the sake of help only. The Lord passes the wealth through you to others. Durgesh Mankikar,MD-Dear sadhaks, In fewest words,permit narinder to send to youthis missile of love"Go beyond words ".............Let not words become a trap, or a snareAnd the only way to the Stllness of your Being the only way to The Beyond ............................. IsMeditationMeditate, meditate, meditateMeditate twice a day , And if that is not possible; At least , ONCE a day !!!!!AUMnarinder bhandari---PRIOR POSTINGIt is Grace and yet for Grace to be, one must have true longing for God and God aloneSophia-----In the words of Pujya Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the root cause for not actualising the message of the Bhagavan is that we do things against once spiritual progress due to attachment to desire for enjoyment and pleasure. Attachment to desire for enjoyments is the greatest obstacle in Self / God Realization. When there is intense desire for enjoyment of pleasures, then giving it up appears to be very difficult, rather impossible. A spiritual aspirant is totally independent in giving up attachment to enjoyment of pleasures. He can give this attachment up through thought, inquiry and reflection. By thinking / inquirying, he can come to the understanding that he wants happiness that has no shortage or limitation, and that never ends."Yam labdhvaa chaaparam laabham manyate naadhikam tatah;yaasminnisthato na dukhen gurnaapi vichaalyatetam vidhyaadukhsam yog viyogam yogasanjitam. " (Gita 6:22-23)"Having gained which state, he does not reckon any other gain greater than that, and wherein established, he is not shaken even by the greatest affliction.this separation from the assumed union with pain, is called Yoga."Human beings are blessed with immense ability to think, reflect and discriminate between truth and untruth. If he chooses to not think, then it is his mistake and error. It is his lack of prudence and attention to what is important.It is a rule that through the enjoyment of pleasures, the object enjoyed is destroyed and at the same time it leads to the enjoyer's downfall and decline. Just like with passion and desire when one indulges in wealth and material goods then that money is destroyed (used up) and one falls down. When importance of wealth, desire,greed, attachment, inertness, slavery etc. comes in him, then it leads to his downfall. When one indulges in enjoyment of food and eating, not only is food consumed and destroyed, but one takes a fall. The increased desire for enjoying foods and increased attachment to food is a sure downfall.-- Paritala Gopi KrishnaShree Hari Ram RamWecome back, Paritala Gopi Krishnaji. After long time... it is good to hear from you.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram----------------------------Dear Sadak,Because one is stuck by a life pattern by his previous Karma account. A cart puller in most cases live and die just like any ordinary man. A high politician lives and dies evolved in that pattern of life. So each one is placed in a particular form Human, Animal, Bird etc to undergo Karma Bandh, says Bagavan to Yudhava in Yudhava Geetha. We see people has NO chance or chance given due to place of birth or under bad circumstances to say Om Namo Narayana/ Sri Rama/Namashivaya. To say it says that one needs previous Virtue (Puniya Pala) says Sri Vishnu Puran. To get that Virtue one gets it accidentally going to temple or meeting a Guru,or a day in Sat Sangh. From there the Virtue grows multi fold.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan Shree HariRam RamSathyanarayanji, you say "people have NO chance or chance given ... .to say the name of God", but Swamiji says human life is only a "saadhan yoni" and all human beings are entitled and eligible for liberation, God Realization, salvation, moksha etc. Can you share some insights on why possibly differing views ?From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------Attachment to worldly things prevents us from following the true path even when we know it. Through sadhna, satsang, sewa and meditation it is possible to get rid of attachment.Hari Shanker Deo-----------------------Bhagvada Geeta Ch 3/ sh 33." Even a wise man acts in accordance with his own nature; beings will follow their own nature; what can restraint do ?" me thinks, the answer to Vineetas query is contained in the shloka above . At any point of time, we are what we are. We cannot have been otherwise. It is something to do with the paradox of Destiny and Effort. The desiring, wishing and willing, the effort, the Doing and the operation of the immutable Law of karma.... all come into play ................ to compel us to be what we are and act only according to our own nature ( swabhava) at any particular point of time. Actually, what vineeta would , perhaps, like to understand how to go beyond one's limitations of being at a certain time. She might find her answer in a related post by narinder on 01 Feb 09 Re: How can I Remember God and by True Sentiments for Attaining Salvation?AUM narinder bhandari----------Dear Sadhaks,To make your knowing reflected in actionthe way, the only wayISMeditationA s an answer to all the questions that arise in the Mind,One answer, perhaps, that I suggest to youIsPut the question aside for a Momentand instead, let the question be" WHO IS IT THAT SEEKS TO KNOW ?"Begin your search withinBegin with yourselfBegin with yourselfWho you are !Are you the body ?Does the ' body ' say , " I am. " Or, Are you the thought, " I am thisâ€¦. or â€¦that " " I want thisâ€¦ orâ€¦. that " " I donot like this â€¦. Or â€¦ that "Are you the Mind that speaks and seeks all !Or,Are you the intellect passing judgements ?Who, Sir, are you ?Seek within, if you want to know.Sit down in a quiet spot. And, watch your thoughts.Thoughts about the Body,Thoughts about the Mind,Judgements galore !Watch, just watch. Do nothing, but just watch.And then, Allow the primal Energy,Which was manifest in all thoughts,To manifest as it's own awareness !By just watchingAnd, becoming the watcher, the seer, The witness of all.By stopping your chatterAnd becoming silent, just becoming silent ! all is achieved.............. so say the Wise Watch, Become a Witness, a SeerThat is, If you so want ! If you want to enter the space of BlissWhich is your ownWhich does not die If you want your knowingTo be reflected in action, in conduct Ah !This One Answer is valid, though, If you are prepared to ' hear 'With your preoccupation with 'This and That ' set asideThis and That. How and Why.For ONE Moment . This Moment Now.NOW, my dear !!!!AUM narinder bhandari ------PRIOR POSTINGShree Hari|| Ram Ram ||Dear Vineetaji, thanks for asking a very important question.Swamiji Maharaj has explained in detail the answer to this question. in his discourses. The answer to this question is contained in Gitaji also.Six noteworthy points (not necessarily independent) which act as a stopper to spiritual progress:1. We have assumed strong relationship with the persons and the objects of the world, the sense of 'ME' and 'MINE'. Our deepest desire is to draw the pleasure from the world, this is totally misplaced thought since the world does not have the capacity to supply us sustained Sukha (pleasure) because Gitaji is calling this world as a Dukhalya (House of suffering, ref: Gita: 8-15).2. Love of money, the assumption it is the sure ticket to attain ultimate sustaining happiness, people become so sure of it that they are ready to commit a crime to get the money. 3. We have divided our life into two separate compartments, (Adhyatam / Sadhna) part and the activities of the day to day life. It is a common observation that potential spiritual aspirants work hard to gain more and more bookish knowledge (information only) and listen to the many discourses without changing their way of life. This knowledge serves only one purpose - to boost the ego, the person claims, I know and many others do not know. In fact this knowledge proves to be a burden, person is ready to unloaded this information to whoever he can find to listen to.4. The deep attachment to Bhoga (pleasure) and Sangrah (accumulation) does not allow us to have a single pointed-ness or focus for sustained effort for Sadhna (Ref. Gitaji 2/41-44).5. The assumption that Maya is the culprit for our deep attachment, the relationships of the world do not leave us, actually it is just the reverse we do not want to leave the relationships.6. Lack of urgency, the earnestness and sincerity (lagan) to pursue the spiritual path. Meera says "mere to Giridhar Gopal dusra na koi" Nothing else was important to her.|| Ram Ram ||Humble regards,Madan Kaura----------- Hari OmVineetaji ! You have asked a beautiful question. In fact we "know" but we do not"admit" ." Ham jaanate hain par ham maanate nahin". We know that whoever takes birth , dies. But when some one near and dear dies, we start crying. Why? Because inside, the importance of world is still there. We want to become happy, sure, but with worldly things. That then is not ANANDA. We want to gain knowledge, sure, but with books and of outer world. That then is not CHIT. We want to live forever, sure, but with this body. That then is not SAT. Desire for becoming SATCHIDANANDA is there in all of us, but erroneously we want to fulfil that desire with reference to the body/world/worldly things/worldly knowledge. Inside us, the importance of WORLD continues.Our acceptance thus is not firm and well placed. We melt before the worldly enticements. We are not able to relinquish deep rooted desire for "SUKH BHOG and SANGRAH' ( Consumption and accumulation) arising out of body and world.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------Ram Ram,your question, "why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know and have fully accepted that THIS IS IT"it is half true, because you just know THIS IS IT, you haven't accepted it. There are few ifs and buts which still remain.We just collect datas in our brain. We don't implement them. Had you accepted THIS IS IT, there is nothing easier than this. Because you need not do any thing. Yes, if you don't accept THAT IS IT, then it's the toughest thing. I could not understand why people have problem accepting it. Though it is the only truth. Yes it is the only truth.Ashok Goenka--------------------------- Dear Vineeta, many answers to this query have been given ................. shastras can be quoted on them............ and all are true .......................... But the two simple answers which bring Joy to narinder's heart ,............. which make him aware of the paradox of action and destiny , and also lead the resolution of the paradox, narinder gives below............. Ans 1.narinder cannot at this moment quote the exact reference, but he remembers reading two shalokas in the scriptures ..................... ONE: Till the Time comes for you to meditate, you will not be able to do soTWO ( next shaloka ) : BUT, if you think that the Time has not yet come, it will never come even in a thousand aeons ! Answer 2. Nisargadatta Maharaj was once asked the question asto why of all the thousands of disciples of his Guru, only he moved into enlightenment . His reply was , " This is one question that no enlightened person can truly answer. One can only say, ' perhaps my time had come '.....or, ' it was Grace ' ..." ah, dear sadhaks, who think that they are the Doers ( and almost everyone is into Doing, whereas the Truth is that you were never the Doer, only God is . ), all that they can do is to strive and strive ............ the results are only in God's hands ! Bh. Gt. Ch, 2/47 is applicable to one's sadhna too ! All the scriptures guide the Sadhaks as to how to ' DO' ( with what attitude, with what understanding ) so that the Ignorance of their being the Doers dies ............. and, the realisation of the Self or God being the only Doer dawns . It is 'not doing ; that is so peaceful, so blissful. That is why Krishna says , " Just surrender to me "( GT Ch. 18/66) But, surrender , too, is not a Doing..... it is an happening , it is Grace.. ...... ah ! Osho, the enlightened master, has said:, " People ask, what to do to move into Not-doing. There is no way. Yet I shall tell you what to do..................When you read the scriptures, or get the answers from the Knowers of Truth.............. sit down and see the facticity of the truth read or heard. Just close your eyes and look at your own Life ............. watch it ............. weight the various incidents of your Life in the facticity of the answer or the Truth . In that watching, the Doing will, one day, get dropped by itself. The true understanding of the answer or the truth will 'happen' by itself ." AUM narinder bhandari-----My dandavat pranams to all in this forum..... Your question, Vineeta, is a sincere and direct inquiry....what is the difficulty in executing the orders of the ancient sadhus, gurus, etc? I have personally found, in years gone by, that I had to analyze carefully who I took influence from. I say "influence" rather than guidance, because we can be influenced by persons whom we don't necessarily even go to for guidance! We become affected by comments, even when it is sometimes just a passerby, we might overhear a conversation, see something on TV, or, the worst of all, go to a counselor whom we think, possibly, (under illusion) because of the title, "professional" has some edge on giving us instruction. I have found that maturity is a matter of developing our own strength to know that we want to follow the standards of the scriptures, even if it is not popular, not seen as modern, "cool", or socially "what's happening". It is a commitment to ourselves, to the Lord, and not to the changing material world in general.praying my words are not a cause of pain to anyone,Mahalaksmi Dasi----Priy sadhika jiIt is difficult due to lack of practice. Like a right handed person faces difficulty to perform same work with left hand. Although both hands are equal & one have full knowledge & believe one can do it But even then with left hand one feels difficult to do the same thing what one is doing by right hand. It is practice.Thanxraja gurdasani--------------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

May 28, 2009

Dear SadhaksI am new to this forum in the capacity of an initiator of a topic However ihave d to this group for quite a while and I want to congratulate allconcerned in creating this platform to allow people like me to enrich myspiritual spaceI have been a student of Vedanta for the past 10 years and fully accept andsurrender to our highest ancient PhilosophyMy question is why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know andhave fully accepted that THIS IS ITPlease enlighten....vineeta malpani----------------------NEW POSTINGDear Mr Deosharan and Mr Hari Shakar Deo

What is being echoed in these messages is that there is a step by

step long process of "sadhana" essentially. No ! This is not the case.

This is the case only when you have hesitation in going full fledged or

want to sail in two boats.. For millions and trillions of births we are

thinking that way only. Let us therefore see Holy Gita in a different

angle. I agree with Divine Moderators that say 9:31 does not envisage

any such process. Remember : this thought process in itself is the

biggest delayer of sadhana. You are first considering mind to be yours.

Then you set about the task of say meditation, tapasya, etc. But the

hard fact is that none of the actions are capable of getting you near

God ! How acts done by perishable body reach imperishable self/God ?

Hence kindly revisit your views , considering seriously the argument

given by Moderators. This meditation, this making Guru , etc are

totally different things than Sadhana. Swamiji

never advocated longer paths ( or rather endless paths). Such paths are

advocated by Gurus for luring the chellas into their dens or by initial

relief getters of meditation, presuming the relief to be the very

peace. It is not that I dont meditate or not know what it means.

Brother Mike Keenor teaches meditation. But how little they talk about

it? Meditation, Tapasya etc are purifiers of antahkarana only ! NOTHING

NOTHING MORE THAN THAT ! Even a first class meditator ultimately must

relinquish shelter of mind/intellect/inert ! Gita is a different

Scripture altogether. Dozens of methodologies are described in it. Why

not take the easiest and fastest out of these??

Swami Rupesk Kumar ------------------------------Dear Friend

In one sentence ,the understanding and knowing in intellectually only which at best is

superficial.Such understanding only increases suffering in life compared to those who

do not know and understand.

The message has to sink deep into heart and has to be realised experientially.

regards

Ashok Jain---------------------------Hari OmThanks for a

very good message, Deosharanji. But I must state that "devotee"

referred in BG is that person who has "become" of God. "Becoming of

God" is a matter of "acceptance" . Acceptance is of "mineness" with

God- which is a truth in itself even otherwise. That acceptance takes

place in "kshipram" time-instantly ! Once you do that , by operation of

Divine Laws stated in BG, the "steady wisdom", equanimity etc

("yogakshema") come to you automatically/effortlessly and guaranteed.

You need not worry for the same. It is a promise to you by Holy Gita

that Krishna will give you the same. Your job is over.You just

"become" of God by "resolving" (accepting) : Mere to Girdhar Gopal ,

Doosaro na Koi" ( I am of God, God is mine, Nothing else is mine)!As simple as that !Now

tell me how practice or implementation of Gita Teachings is not direct

and practical ? How it is time consuming? Note that Guarantees given in

Gita run from the moment of resolution/decision/acceptance itself !!

(BG 9:31)Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

---------How many sinners whom we know have attained sainthood? It isn't soeasy. I personally know Gurus who have attained enlightenment. Theirlives are examples. It wasn't so easy for them either. From theirbirth their only goal was to attain sainthood. It must be theculmination of many lives just as it took Buddha a hundred births tobecome the Buddha and attain nirvana. If it was so easy everyone would become a saint.Hari Shanker Deo ----------------Narain ! Narain !!

Why difficult? Simple- reliance upon "jad" (inert). Only by self

you can realise self ! Where is difficulty there ? What kind of

cleaning is required for that element which is ever pure ( amal)? What

steps? Oh ! This mind and these meditations ! What time does it take to

resolve? Mere thought about Him and decision to move towards Him is

enough. Read Gita 9:31. I agree with Respected Miraji Dass. What

"stable wisdom" ? Note Deosharanji that all verses from 2:54 to 2:70

dealing with "stable wisdom" referred by you are achieved by your

simple "samyag nischay" ( firm decision) under 9:31 ! Remember Sir : As

you think so becomes the process. Stop thinking. No meditation, no

tapasya, no austerity, no action can ever make you realise Him- says

Swamiji, says Holy Gita, say the Divine Moderators ! What more comfort

do you want? Go ahead. Did not Rajaji tell - FIX YOUR OBJECT ? Rest all

will take care of itself. What meditation?

Narain Narain !

Naarad N Maharishi-------------------------------Dear Vineeta,

In the book called "The Road less travelled", the author writes

something towards the end of the book, which I think is the simple answer to

your question. He says that the first cardinal SIN if any, is LAZINESS. This "laziness"

is the reason why we human don't achieve what we are inherently capable of achieving.

To actualize the message of Gita will require effort and

discipline, it will require that we "unlearn" and turn out-selves inside out

and open our-selves to the LIGHT within and without. Of course, this change will

ask for a lifetime of dedication ("sadhna"), this will ask for effort and the

inherent laziness in most of us will prevent us from moving against the

inertia.

When our desire for God is greater than the inertia of laziness

then it won't be difficult to actualize the message.

But we can't keep waiting for our desire to grow because in the

absence of effort even the desire will not grow and we will be exchanging the

same kind of messages for the next 100 births. So instead of waiting to do the "complete

surrender to god", we can take some tiny steps, which are not so difficult to

implement. Like take steps to reduce the "noise" (thoughts) in our heads…whenever

possible chant the name of god, while walking, standing in a queue or anything

that does not involve our complete attention. Like devoting some 10 mins

everyday meditating or praying or reading something inspiring.

These baby steps, will one day allow us to gain enough momentum

required to destroy the inertia in us caused by laziness. And we will be free

and energetic and willing enough to take what it takes to completely actualize the

message of Gita.

Best regards,

A lazy Sadhak!===============================PRIOR POSTINGNamaste. The message of GEETA is simple and direct, but the practice or implementation by human beings is not. One, perchance, in thousands of men, strives for perfection; and one perchance, among the blessed ones, striving thus, knows Me in reality GEETA 7:3 Only the pure devotees can know something of the inconceivable transcendental qualities in Krsna, in the cause of all causes, in His omnipotence and opulence, and in His wealth, fame, strength, beauty, knowledge and renunciation, because Krsna is benevolently inclined to His devotees. He is the last word in Brahman realization, and the devotees alone can realize Him as He is. Therefore it is said: atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaihsevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah"No one can understand Krsna as He is by the blunt material senses. But He reveals Himself to the devotees, being pleased with them for their transcendental loving service unto Him." (Padma Purana) To actualise, or live, the message of GEETA, we must become men and women of "steadywisdom".Lord Krishna said, "O Arjuna, when a man abandons all the desires of the mind and is satisfied in the Self by the Self; then he is said to be a person of steadfast wisdom." He whose mind is not shaken by adversity, who does not hanker after happiness, who has become free from affection, fear, and wrath, is indeed the Muni of steady wisdomHe who is everywhere unattached, not pleased at receiving good, nor vexed at evil, his wisdom is fixedWhen also, like the tortoise its limbs, he can completely withdraw the senses from their objects, then his wisdom becomes steadyGEETA 2:55 to 58That man who lives devoid of longing, abandoning all desires, without the sense of 'I' and 'mine,' he attains to peace. GEETA 2:71 Ram Ram,Deosaran Bisnath-------Every Indian knows about the path of spiritual growth, but due to entanglement with the worldly pleasures and desires is unable to cultivate the dispassion and equanamity required to have a spiritual bent of mind. Unless we control our thoughts we cannot meditate and think about higher things. We know that our human life is the rarest of rare,given after 84 lakh births into many species. Only humans have the capacity of thought and reasoning. We are uniquely poised to progress into merging with the Paramatma or the Higher Self and avoiding the painful cycle of endless births and deaths. This path is not easy. Our Gurus have undergone years of gruelling tapas or samadhi and only then have seen the light. We can at least try to follow them.Hari Shanker Deo-------Shree Hari Ram Ram Hari Shanker Deo ji, If what you say is correct, then why would Lord Krsna say in Gita 9:31 - With such a determination and exclusive aim, even the worst of worst sinners can attain saint hood (i.e. realize Bhagavan) very quickly "kshipram bhavati dharamaatmaa". (Gita 9:31). Lord Krsna would not say "kshipram" if it required grueling tapas, samadhi etc. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram ---------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadhak,Your question is worth following.Every sadhak knows that even reading one sloka ( verse )of Bhagavat Gita will helps s.How many of us read even one verse.I am reading one chapter My friend was reading the whole of the Bhagvata Geeta I know its results in my life.t is through our intution that we feel its power.Please follow its teachings.Truly yours Shankerprasad S Bhatt-------Hari OmYou are right, Devji Maharaj. But then "sadhana" necessarily implies "putting the ideals into practice". We all in this forum deliberate this transformation of "theory" into "practice" only. Once we accept - Yes! These ideals can be lived. Why they would appear in the Scriptures in the first place , if they are not practical?- then the path becomes very smooth. Our Chairman Raja Gurudasaniji calls it to be "AIM". If you fix your object to be - live ideals of Gitaji in practical life, be certain we are on right path.Then as rightly stated by SS Bhattji , all Saints and Sages, Ramakrishna Paramhansa, Swami Vivekanand, Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, Satsanga, Scriptures will point you the way forward.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B---------------------Shree Hari-Brother Vyas,Namaskar:Your short message on death of Ego drew my focus, I saw sound advice in yourthoughts.I went through a period of ego destruction,(I might add I am not free of ityet), and yes methods of its demise can be manifold.Without going into details, Grace seems to be part of it,(I was told this by theOne who helped me), I honestly did not realize what she was speaking of tillmuch later.The engine that drove this process, was desire for the Truth.(maybe that is theCore the Seed as it were to all spiritual paths).The outcome was not seeing the aged, the afflicted physical or emotional, thepoor.....as anything but a beloved of creations of 'The Divine'.Just reflecting.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor)----------------------narinder thanks Vyas jee for his deep interest in helping him to progress in his spiritual Life.ah, my friends,dear sadhakas true ......nari just asked of himself today, this Moment Nowwondered .... this moment now......if he had any more to say ..............and he fell silent ...........any mental positions, nari ? noneany teachings from you for anyone ? Noneany message to anyone .......? none .. !!!!and ......this moment now................... any words for the self, for narinder .........?" keep working on yourself , narinder .........all that nari has had to say ..............all that came to him as a blessing, as joy and peace, as love , as wisdomfrom the wise, as speech from silence,lovingly has nari shared with narinder ............he has nothing more to add..............all that he had to say, has been said ............his heart, with love, joy and satisfaction of being, is filled ........................much have you given to him, narinder ..........and even more from God he recieved ................filled to the brim is nari .... and his vessel is now totally emptyrevelling in timeless silence , his head he lays at Krishna's feet ................ "nari's final words to thee are ....................." Keep working on yourself, narinder ............ be yourself .............love yourself, narinder, ............love yourself wisely ....................keep working on yourself narinder and pay heed to what the knowers of Truth lovingly do say...let not your Mind come too much into play ...........all the buddhas are smiling on you............. and are ever guiding you ..........just inhale their fragrance ......... holding your Mind from any comments , or judgement ...and should you still feel the need for succour ............go, lay your head at the feet of the saints and sagesand wash their feet with tears of Love .............aapo deepo bhava, narinderBlessings of the Buddhas be with thee ........."and friends....................nari, narinder, the self, you and i, i and you ............... are not -twohave, in truth, never been TWO !AUMnarinder bhandari----------------------PRIOR POSTINGNamasteTo answer your question, the message of the Gita is an ideal, it is what one strives to but it is not for everyday practicality of life. There are many deviations in human personality given the geneology, environment that one is socialized in, personality traits etc. Therefore, this is a set of principles that can transform one if applied. However, one has to transform ones way of seeing, thinking and living for this to bear fruit, for this to occur consistent efforts have to be made but it is not something that can be internalized and practiced in one shot. There are many circumstances that in some instances force one to act contrary to what is taught.Best RegardsDev Maharaj------------------------Hari OmSadhak Narinder's views about "spiritual ego" are worth reading. Messages like this are beneficial and take forward Satsanga. The real "spiritual ego" however continues to be "insistence on the methodology undertaken by Sadhak himself" - say meditation, or karma yoga etc. Real Sadhak will never say- "this method is only method" !But again he ought to be very careful in expressions. Let it not flow unless when in poetic mood. Consider the opening remarks:QuoteThe deep desire for the Death of the False in us, the Death of ego, the Death of the self as it is at the Present Moment, is what makes a seeker True !UnquoteNarinderji ! There is no false existing in us. Don't "accept" the existence of "False" in you. No amount of efforts/meditation/knowledge/sadhana can remove false/faults from you , if you accept them to be with you and then try to remove it. Reason: The very acceptance is faulty.I hope my pin pointing subtle areas for your benefit and for bringing out the truth will be taken in right spirit by you. We all are here in this Satsanga to advance spiritually.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B----------------------Dear vineetaji: NamasteIt is an excellent question why we cannot accept the world "AS IT IS" and move on. My understanding is also very simple based on a simple example. . Let us say a group of three people have seen a rose bush with lot of beautiful flowers. One persons get elated looking at it and wants to enjoy the beauty for ever looking from a distance, another looks at the thorns and feels dejected that he cannot get them easily and take them home and another does not even recognize that it existed on his way. The object is the same but gives rise to three different reactions. Why? Because each one projected his own mind on to the rose bush from his past impressions of roses. World is what we project our impressions on it and that is the problem why we cannot follow Gita's message although we understood it as a simple philosophy. In simple terms the world is what we want to it look like. The first one who appreciated the beauty from a distance is the one whom we should follow initially in our pursuit of looking at the world as it IS. Later on in the practice, we should develop dispassion in the sense whether we see this beautiful rose bush or heap of garbage it should not evoke any positive or negative reaction. Equanimity is central theme of Gita in my simple understanding and can be practiced easily if we put our mind to it every day, every minute of existence.May the wisdom of looking at the 'World AS IT IS' prevail to reach the state of Bliss we all seek.B.Vempaty---------------------Dear SadhakEven Vedantic truths are revealed in this Bhagvata Geeta.For more association with Vedant join Vedantic Society for books,lectures and other programs.This discussion will surely help you.Read the example of Mahatma Gandhi. He found reliefs after reading and reciting Bhagvat Geeta every day.I read Chapter XV of Gita every day.Have faith,devotion and concistency in reading Bhagvata Geeta and you will surely experience difference in your life.Read all books written by Ramakrishna Paramhansa and Swami Vivekanand besides participating in this group discussion.Wishing all success to youï¿½Truly yoursï¿½S S Bhatt---------------------Dear sadaks,One knows THIS IS IT, cannot experience. One knows air craft/train/bus. Can it be driven until trained. Semi trained also risky/dangerous. One knows petrol, but can it be got, without acquiring through knowledge how to get from earth and it requires team work.Now that you know GOD exits and man has all the ability to become Godly. But knowledge(Gyana), skill (sadana), Vairag (Determination) does not happen though the mind tells one should become GODLY. To gain unworthy fame one works day and night. To gain infinity it is not easy.In collage one studies but practical is vital to get through the exams. To get VITAL what sacrifice one does?Example: Sidharam at teen age had strong desire (desire tool used here) to see Bagavan Shiva. He was told serveral ways to attain Godlyness, but it failed. He decided to jump off a cliff as he thought his human birth is waste. He jumped, but suddenly he realized some one lifting him off from the fall. On the cliff top he was placed and saw Bagavan Shiva and Parvathi. Visit HIS jeeva samadhi 2 Km from Sholapur.Baktha Gora cut his both hands for a promise on Bagavan Vital. Bagavan came in disguise and worked as servant in Gora house and at end he realized it was Sri Krishna. To get that status one need to renounce totally and surrender. Bagavan waited until Sidharam jumped off and Gora cut his hands. Sadaks note Bagavan never came just before jumping or cutting hands. Action done. The untimate Karma pala (renouncing action) bears the experiencing GOD.Bagavan said to be experienced by Gyana, which is in Sabdha roop ( devine Sound mentioned in scripts) Ref: Upanashid and Bagavath.Sotra/Mantra: 1) Hare Rama Hare Krishna. 2) Sri rama rama Ramethi- Ramerama Mano rame. Over period of decades sounds change like people character change. Children names are called Pinky and Tinky. Varun or Marun.Keethana or Keethi. These sounds have no divine touch. Those days, they called Krishna/Rama/Govinda/ Mukundha/Purushothama. Slowly it changed to Krishn, Ram/ Govind, Mukundh, Purushoth. Each Sabdha (sound) has specific effect. To day still worse. If one does Havon Kundh/Yagna, it can be noted the sound, Rama/Krishna/Kesava Etc. Earlier I posted the important of the letters "a", which is today left and called Ram. Got accustomed (Deep Vasana of Sound) one does not want to change and says it is Bavana importance. For Rama (God sake) sake, for HIS love sake can we change? Then how it is possible to elevate to infinity with hidden ego/not recognisable ego.Bear with me sadaks.B.Sathyanarayan-------------------it is because siddhant is an ideal condition whereas in practical there are several deviations which distract us.we always see others actions & try to imitate or follow. it is instinctive since childhood. therefore it is a saying that parvarish mus be good. people living in ashrams follow their gurus and make their life. similarly in home also child follow maata pita.In manas prabhuji says GUN YAH UBHAY NA DEKHIYE DEKHIYA SO ABIBEK.Raja Gurdasani-----------------------PRIOR POSTINGShree HariRam RamSwamiji says - It is difficult to actualize the message of Bhagavad Gita only due to our deep attachment to sense enjoyments! God Realization is not difficult, but giving up attachment to enjoyment and sense pleasures is difficult.The Lord has said in the Gita :"Bhogaisvaryaprasaktaanam tayaapahrtacetasaamvyavasaayaatmikaa buddhih samaadhau na vidheeyate.""No mind that is lured by sense-objects and engrossed in sensual enjoyments and glory of material possessions can ever enter, O, Partha, the state of contemplation and divine communiontranscendental." *He who is intensely attached to sense-enjoyments and acquisition of material things, cannot even conceive or decide on moving towards God. There is no resolve to turn towards God, and when this resolve is not strong enough, where is the question of God-Realization ?Meera Das, Ram Ram----------dear sadhaks , The deep desire for the Death of the False in us, the Death of ego, the Death of the self as it is at the Present Moment, is what makes a seeker True ! A true Seeker's yearning , pining , thirsting heart gasping for Breath , as it were !!!!!His food and drink, thereafter, are the words of the Saints and Sages the Knowers of Truth !His Joy and Happiness lie in the experiences that lead his Mind into Silence Into the No- Mind state !Sometimes, the spiritual ego becomes a real barrier to our spiritual progress ! The thoughts of Maitreya Ishwara below are for narinder a real Joy to meditate on !SPRITUAL EGOthe spiritual ego is subtle, cunningsuperior, inferior and secretive.the spiritual ego develops because egohas to live somewhere until it dissolves.if you are a seeker of truth, the egoidentifies with your quest and can becomeserious and secretly superior.the inner reality of seekers is neverquite as beautiful as the ideals of their traditionand they decorate their ego so it looks a little nicer.this is a common trap for many seekersand one from which it is difficult to escape.authenticity and playfulness are the antidote.for this you will need support from thosewho are already living in this way. when the ideal is authenticity, not purity, youare free to be yourself.authenticity and playfulness give you thespace to face yourself as you are and toconfront your darkness consciously.this conscious self-encounter brings purityindirectly, without the hypocritical burdenof a spiritually pure ego.~Maitreya Ishwara AUM narinder ---------PRIOR POSTINGWhy is it so difficult to actualise the message of the Bhagvad Geeta ?Simple ... overwhelming IGNORANCE (lack of clarity) and stubborn INERTIA(hesitance to change)... on top of all the towering notion of ownership onignorance in the name of knowledge and on inertia in the name of volition ...the ego ...Respects.Naga Narayana.------------------------------Dear sadak,A Sadak question: ""why is it (Vedantha) so difficult to live that philosophy when you know and have fully accepted that THIS IS IT"". Because IT is beyond any sense or senses of ordinary human. It is not important whether you fully accept or not. IT is to be known by Gyana and not by any means. To get Gyana Vedhant is only theory, but vedhant has also to be practiced, by Vairag (Determination) -surrender- dissolving 6 bad Gunas,- becoming totally Satvik, which one will face difficulties. Sri Mikeji words ,""Supremely Dear am I to him AND he is dear to me"". What does it mean? No matter how deep you may do anything divine, it does not work that easy. It is HIS (God) sankalp (Wish) that can transform one.Now all know that Yudhistra and 4 brothers were silent in spite of Droupathi being disrobed and maximum insulting words and physical torcher (Removing their crowns, robes etc) for what? To maintain Dharma. To such Dharmic person Arjuna, it was the effort and grace of Bagavan by saying Geetha which transformed him. So however Dharmic, strong, wealthy one may be, it is HIS sankalp that can make wonders. Another Example: What Ajamil Do in his life time? He only called his son Narayana at his last breath. Fire when touched knowingly or unknowingly burns. So the NAM of Narayana said has effect of Vishnu Dhoot appear and take him to Vaikunt. That is HIS Sankalp said in Geetha about "Anthima Kal Prayana Samaye" I think 8th Volume. I don't think Ajamil knows anything about Vedhant. There are 2 Dharm Bagavan has. One Ordinary Dharm and other is Bagavath Dhram. In Bhagavath Dhram HE there no restriction to make HIS sankalp to any oneJai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan.----------------------narinder , verily , prayed to Kanha To allow the Mind to die to thought ......... and krishna Beloved ........... who answers all prayers replied ............. " Die, narinder, die ............ death is the WayLove and Hate, Life and Death ............ drop your Mind, and know ............. Love is the Way , Silence is the Way, One -ness is the Way Meditation and Death are not -two.... Meditation is the Way .......... Go beyond words, nari, go beyond words Dropping all doubts , and all assertions is the WAY ............................... " ah, friends, the doings of lifetime after lifetime, came to an end,came to end, when my Beloved smiledthe desire for knowlrege and knowing died,when my Beloved smiled !!sowhat can nari say now, and how , pray .........except to be silent ............Silence so Blissful, ah !And from this silence,now blossom words , that are not words ..............how can they be words ............. they could only be Silence !!go beyond words, my friends, go beyond words MEDITATION is the Way ...............Meditate, meditate, meditate , till the self , in Grace, bestows on you ......the knowing of the Self !ah, the Self is ONE, how could it be Two ?AUM narinder------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari-Dear Vineeta,You have studied the Vedanta, and fully accept 'THIS IS IT', and you fullyaccept and surrender to this 'Ancient Philosophy'.Buddha said, "I point at the moon, and you look at my finger".Your question is,"... why is it so difficult to live that philosophy".The philosophy must be pointing you, guiding you ultimately to Moksha.It is the finger that points. I have studied various traditions overthe decades, and realized by stepping back as it were, they are all pointing tothe same place.I have found that the Bhagvad Geeta is the most connecting of all that I haveread, (that's the best way that I can put it), Arjuna and Shree Krishna comeover so strongly, that the corridors of time seem not to exist.May I offer you these wonderful words:B.G. Ch.7These four kinds of virtuous menDo worship Me, O Arjuna:The distressed, seekers of welfare,Seekers of knowledge, and the wise. (16)Of them, the wise man, e'er steadfast,Devoted to the One, excels;Supremely dear am I to him,And he is dear to Me, as well. (17)All these indeed are exalted,But I see the man of wisdomAs My Self. He, with mind steadfast,Abides in Me, the Supreme Goal. (18)At the end of his many birthsThe wise man takes refuge in Me.He knows: "All is Vasudeva.How very rare is that great soul! (19)With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor-----------------------Hari OmAs always , Vasudev Sathyanarainji reflects, in his latest message, purity and innocence , a hall mark of real sadhak. He reflects here a concern for general !He says:But how many get chance to atleast listen to this? Only hand full. Swamiji has said the words , "Entitled & Eligible" to liberate.Vasudev Sathyanaraiji ! Consider that "entitlement and eligibilty" to be CHANGING from "I am of the world, world is mine"TOI am of God, Only God is mine, Nothing else is mineMERE TO GIRDHAR GOPAL , DOOSARO NA KOIMatter ends. All scriptures, saints , verses of Gitaji, Upanishads, Vedas, get reconciled. All subtle confusions get cleared, all dilemmas go away- the very ego , the very one's SELF changes for ever, never to change again !! Becomes Divine forever.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------Dear Vyas jee,Thank you for your thoughts ..You are right !The Self ( atma) is NOT the doer . Ch. 13/ 30.All human beings are eligible to attain God and have the freedom of choice whether or not to do so.. a freedom granted to them by the Lord.. the freedom called "free-will"The Self is One ................ Ek Omkar ..........there are no two selfs, ah ! when all is Govinda, then ,who is the seeker, and who the sought ......... pray !when all is One,when there is action in action, and inaction in action ..........when both are One , where is the Paradox of being, pray !If yes is No... and No is Yes ............ when in Love they embrace ,where is the paradox , pray !If Silence is the only Reality, beyond all words ............ IF , when the self is known, all becomes known ............IF all the doing culminates in Not-Doing,who is the doer , and who the non-doer, pray .....when dancing stops, where is the dance , and where is the dancer ......... ?? when Mind rests in deep sleep , in the embrace of the Un-known,who is it that is no more, and who, ever and ever, the One ever known ??ah, narinder, the not-knower , does not know .............BUT.......... Krishna Beloved says ............... "I do nothing at all", thus would be the harmonized knower of Truth think, seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, eating, going, sleeping, breathing, Speaking, letting go, seizing, opening and closing his eyes convinced that the senses move among the sense objects " (Gita Shlokas 5/8 and 5/9; Gita 13/ 31, 13/32, and Gita 14/3, )The reward, Kanha promised for Sadhna is freedom from the bonds of Action, yielding good and evil "fruits" ( Gita 9/28) narinder , verily , prayed to Kanha To allow the Mind to die to thought ......... and krishna Beloved ........... who answers all prayers replied ............. " Die, narinder, die ............ death is the WayLove and Hate, Life and Death ............ drop your Mind, and know ............. Love is the Way , Silence is the Way, One -ness is the Way Meditation and Death are not -two.... Meditation is the Way .......... Go beyond words, nari, go beyond words Dropping all doubts , and all assertions is the WAY ............................... "Narinder BhandariPRIOR POSTINGNamaste ,Swamiji saying Saadhan Yoni (a birth for achieving and accomplishing it's goal). Yoni means womb. In any animal womb if a jeeva is born (Except for extreme rare case), that Jeeva does not have intellect. Has only instinct. Such Jeeva born from animal yoni, just very clearly and correctly washes away it` s karmas, only but not it` s vasana (impressions remaining in the mind from past births/action). Going through few animal births by just allowing people to kick it, kill it Etc attains human birth. Due to these animals performing their duties (Say an Ox pulling a cart, Cow giving milk, goat/hen giving meat-service to humans is Saadhana done by these animals) gets right to be born as human called Saadhana Yoni. Only a lady Human Yoni can give room to a Jeeva to continue Saadhana for liberation. As humans people get chance to learn Geetha, Srimath Bagavath, get blessings of Swamiji Etc and seek God. Only as human the liberation is possible said in many Puran and Upanashid as a concept. This concept only Swamiji says "Saadha Yoni" and further Swamiji has said to Sadaks that You are THAT, means you (Human) have all the provisions and body designed in such a manner to think, act, meditate and seek God. Such is birth of human very precious. (Maanusha Dheham Dullabam)As Swamiji said that all humans are entitled and eligible for liberation, Moksha is abosolutely true. But this truth is not known to many. Let it be begger or king or politician, or social server or Ghrahastha, anyone can know this truth and read Geetha and practice dharmic life. Almost human race know that there is a eye opener Bagavath Geetha. But how many get chance to atleast listen to this? Only hand full. Swamiji has said the words , "Entitled & Eligible" to liberate. A student gets eligible and entitled with Scholarship to do Ph.D. But he does not study and goes hay with pleasure of world due to teen age. As human, in childhood play, teenage wonders and pleasures and at old age Chintha Sakthaha Ref:(Bajagovindam) Man can sing Bagavan names, dance of HIS glory, DO Bajan on GOVIND Etc which he is eligible and has all the freedom to do, but does not do. So Punarapi Maranam, Punarapi Jananam---.Virochna and Indra asked Bramaji who they are. Baramaji said, '" you are THAT SAT" go and see in still water. Virochana seeing his own image decided he is God and ended up in trouble. Indra seeing his image knew that it is reflection of his roop but not Swaroop and knew that he should seek Bhraman.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan.-----------------------------Hari OmBeautiful short message by Sophiaji ! Narinderji ! couple of points of correction.... on your message in favour of "dependence" of a human being and " GOD IS THE DOER".No to Both.. All Human beings are Entirely Independent and Eligible to attain God ! andNeither God nor Pure Self are in any way doers (Karta). Jeeva (embodied soul) when he "assumes" himself to be doer, becomes "doer" because , whoever is "bhokta" (enjoyer) is a Karta (doer) . In reality, there is constant activity going on in the matter. Whoever forms "affinity" with it MUST become doer. If Jeeva is not doer, and instead God is doer, entire Karma Yoga becomes redundant. Verses upon verses starting from "karmanye vaadhikaraste" will become redundant.Human life has been given to you only for changing your SVABHAV / Nature / attitude. No other creature except a human being has that capacity/ privilege and competence. I would say even demi-gods (devatas) don't have that capacity. Question of animals etc having that capacity does not arise. Jeeva (human) has complete independence granted to him for changing his ego, his svabhav and turning towards God. He has "conscience" especially given to him, to help him in that.One must find out first as to why human life is stated to be rarest of the rare births? Why even Devatas want to become humans? Why? If a human is toy and everything is pre destined then what is the difference between a human and an animal? Human life is not a BHOG YONI (a birth for enjoyment of pleasures), it is Karma/Yog Yoni (a birth for selfless service / realizing Union). Here you are fully fully independent.Because in human life only you can change your "self" from worldly to divine. I REPEAT IN NO OTHER LIFE FORM YOU CAN DO SO ! Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say: Human life has been given to you only for changing your svabhav.A human is not a puppet like animals. A frog can not change its svabhav but a human can. BG 3:33 quoted refers to others. It says you can't change others. To yourself , you can always. Neither fate, nor Karmas, nor Law of Karma, nor any particular situation or circumstances , nor God,nor Time, nor "assumed" absence of Grace of God, nothing can ever be a hindrance in your turning towards Him. NOTHING- I repeat. Only willingness is needed. Only longing, exclusive longing, for God is needed- as so rightly stated by Sophiaji. PURUSHARTHA is needed. (Not help of Prarabdha).Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N BDear Sadhakas, Namaste!Out of the great respect for Ancient Philosophy, one accepts it and seeminglysurrenders to it, is obviously not sufficient, right Vineetaji? Otherwise thequestion of difficult to live its message will not arise!First of all the message has to be extracted carefully, and then chewed anddigested so it becomes blood, bones, and nerves of Vineeta, then only themessage becomes alive in you and acts. THen Vineeta becomes the excuse for themessage to shine Itself!Let us see the Vedanta's Core message: You are not the body-mind basedautonomous individual endowed with doer-ship. It is mistaken identity, the rootignorance! You are limitless Conscious-Being, Impersonal Intelligence!Everything is YOU, seamless One Consciousness!This is what you are right now,not that you will become! Just realize this truth now.If this message is thoroughly understood, goes through "you", you will feel, andact from this Understanding. In other words, this Understanding will act through"you". as you.Now some practical pointers:1)Don't worry about how difficult it is to live, just relax. You are responsiblefor obtaining understanding only, not doing.2) Meditate regularly on this message: Why do I consider myself as Vineeta, andwhat does it mean? Do I have any proof that I am so and so?3) When you are satisfied that you don't have any proof you are such Vineeta asyou have been taking yourself to be, then give this messaage a chance to act bydis-identifying with Vineeta in thoughts, and deeds. Take Vineeta as instrument,though, and take good care impartially and objectively, it is vehicle to takeyou home. You must visualize Vineeta in YOU as all bodies are in you! Practicethis often.4)Use this forum to clarify doubts, don't shun them away. If you come across aliving teacher or friends who are interested in Truth, discuss and dialogue withthem to erase all doubts. For your information, I have learned more from myTeacher with one on one dialogues then and there than from reading scriptures,or listening to one way talks. Above all Burn with the longing not to rest untilyou unfold the mystery of WHAT you are, the world you live in and God.5) If you are sincere the universe will conspire to give you this Knowledgewhich burns away all conditioning-karmas, and sets you free.Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt------------------------Vineetaji, You ask a very interesting question. It depends on one's own level of "maturity"---a very mis-understood word.Maturity does not mean total Vairagya, it means doing that which is necessary at that point in time, dispaasionately. As in, it does not mean one should give up the society and live in the forest or away from society, it means doing whatever needs to be done with "equanimity", while living in the society. Swami Dayananda has a great example.There is a balloon in the room, and there are 3 people---a 3 yr old child, an 8 yr old child, and an adult----you. The 8 yr old wants to play with the balloon, but the 3 yr old also wants it too. If the 8 yr old takes it, the 3 yr old wants it right away and will also cry. So, the 8 yr old lets him play with it. As soon as the 3 yr old leaves the room, the 8 yr old takes the balloon, until the 3 yr old comes back, and he gives the balloon back to him ! You play with the balloon with the 3 yr old, as if you are also 3 yrs old. When he is out of the room, if invited, you also play with the 8 yr old, as if you are 8 yrs old, and when the two kids are out of the room, you may or may not play with the balloon, even if it is in the room and both the children are out !! The 3 yr old is a balloon-Sansaaree--it means everything to him, and cannot live without it. The 8 yr old is a balloon-Tyagee, who can flit in and out of a balloon-sansaar ! he has done a tyaag but is still attached to it !! You on the other hand is a balloon-Sanyaasee. It means nothing to you, but you can still play with the children without becoming attached to it, and if they are not there, it can remain in a corner. Let us say, you are a Wall Street type, who has now after reading become a Tyagee. You are still attached to the Sansaar, but can get out of it. By constantly doing things dispassionately, you will become a Sanyaasee, while living in the Society, and eventually may teach this to your friends and family. There is an obligation even to a Sanyaasee. The obligation is to teach. It does not die with the person, but is transmitted to posterity, by teaching. According to Swami Dayananda, you must Teach only a "qualified" person, who is desirous of this knowledge, and has become a Tyagee and seeks this knowledge. So, you can do it Vinitaji. And you should. The Wall streeter is also performing only a job. That job should be done appropriately, without trying to fleece or cheat his clients. His / Her advice should be appropriate, and if in the course of time, he or she does mak a lot of money, there are enough charities and educational institutions in the world that can benefit from the largesse of such a proper person, who is bound to help "just and proper" institutions, such as schools for the blind, or education of the disenfranchised, health care of the poor or whatever helps the society. This help should come without any strings. Help for the sake of help only. The Lord passes the wealth through you to others. Durgesh Mankikar,MD-Dear sadhaks, In fewest words,permit narinder to send to youthis missile of love"Go beyond words ".............Let not words become a trap, or a snareAnd the only way to the Stllness of your Being the only way to The Beyond ............................. IsMeditationMeditate, meditate, meditateMeditate twice a day , And if that is not possible; At least , ONCE a day !!!!!AUMnarinder bhandari---PRIOR POSTINGIt is Grace and yet for Grace to be, one must have true longing for God and God aloneSophia-----In the words of Pujya Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the root cause for not actualising the message of the Bhagavan is that we do things against once spiritual progress due to attachment to desire for enjoyment and pleasure. Attachment to desire for enjoyments is the greatest obstacle in Self / God Realization. When there is intense desire for enjoyment of pleasures, then giving it up appears to be very difficult, rather impossible. A spiritual aspirant is totally independent in giving up attachment to enjoyment of pleasures. He can give this attachment up through thought, inquiry and reflection. By thinking / inquirying, he can come to the understanding that he wants happiness that has no shortage or limitation, and that never ends."Yam labdhvaa chaaparam laabham manyate naadhikam tatah;yaasminnisthato na dukhen gurnaapi vichaalyatetam vidhyaadukhsam yog viyogam yogasanjitam. " (Gita 6:22-23)"Having gained which state, he does not reckon any other gain greater than that, and wherein established, he is not shaken even by the greatest affliction.this separation from the assumed union with pain, is called Yoga."Human beings are blessed with immense ability to think, reflect and discriminate between truth and untruth. If he chooses to not think, then it is his mistake and error. It is his lack of prudence and attention to what is important.It is a rule that through the enjoyment of pleasures, the object enjoyed is destroyed and at the same time it leads to the enjoyer's downfall and decline. Just like with passion and desire when one indulges in wealth and material goods then that money is destroyed (used up) and one falls down. When importance of wealth, desire,greed, attachment, inertness, slavery etc. comes in him, then it leads to his downfall. When one indulges in enjoyment of food and eating, not only is food consumed and destroyed, but one takes a fall. The increased desire for enjoying foods and increased attachment to food is a sure downfall.-- Paritala Gopi KrishnaShree Hari Ram RamWecome back, Paritala Gopi Krishnaji. After long time... it is good to hear from you.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram----------------------------Dear Sadak,Because one is stuck by a life pattern by his previous Karma account. A cart puller in most cases live and die just like any ordinary man. A high politician lives and dies evolved in that pattern of life. So each one is placed in a particular form Human, Animal, Bird etc to undergo Karma Bandh, says Bagavan to Yudhava in Yudhava Geetha. We see people has NO chance or chance given due to place of birth or under bad circumstances to say Om Namo Narayana/ Sri Rama/Namashivaya. To say it says that one needs previous Virtue (Puniya Pala) says Sri Vishnu Puran. To get that Virtue one gets it accidentally going to temple or meeting a Guru,or a day in Sat Sangh. From there the Virtue grows multi fold.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan Shree HariRam RamSathyanarayanji, you say "people have NO chance or chance given ... .to say the name of God", but Swamiji says human life is only a "saadhan yoni" and all human beings are entitled and eligible for liberation, God Realization, salvation, moksha etc. Can you share some insights on why possibly differing views ?From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------Attachment to worldly things prevents us from following the true path even when we know it. Through sadhna, satsang, sewa and meditation it is possible to get rid of attachment.Hari Shanker Deo-----------------------Bhagvada Geeta Ch 3/ sh 33." Even a wise man acts in accordance with his own nature; beings will follow their own nature; what can restraint do ?" me thinks, the answer to Vineetas query is contained in the shloka above . At any point of time, we are what we are. We cannot have been otherwise. It is something to do with the paradox of Destiny and Effort. The desiring, wishing and willing, the effort, the Doing and the operation of the immutable Law of karma.... all come into play ................ to compel us to be what we are and act only according to our own nature ( swabhava) at any particular point of time. Actually, what vineeta would , perhaps, like to understand how to go beyond one's limitations of being at a certain time. She might find her answer in a related post by narinder on 01 Feb 09 Re: How can I Remember God and by True Sentiments for Attaining Salvation?AUM narinder bhandari----------Dear Sadhaks,To make your knowing reflected in actionthe way, the only wayISMeditationA s an answer to all the questions that arise in the Mind,One answer, perhaps, that I suggest to youIsPut the question aside for a Momentand instead, let the question be" WHO IS IT THAT SEEKS TO KNOW ?"Begin your search withinBegin with yourselfBegin with yourselfWho you are !Are you the body ?Does the ' body ' say , " I am. " Or, Are you the thought, " I am thisâ€¦. or â€¦that " " I want thisâ€¦ orâ€¦. that " " I donot like this â€¦. Or â€¦ that "Are you the Mind that speaks and seeks all !Or,Are you the intellect passing judgements ?Who, Sir, are you ?Seek within, if you want to know.Sit down in a quiet spot. And, watch your thoughts.Thoughts about the Body,Thoughts about the Mind,Judgements galore !Watch, just watch. Do nothing, but just watch.And then, Allow the primal Energy,Which was manifest in all thoughts,To manifest as it's own awareness !By just watchingAnd, becoming the watcher, the seer, The witness of all.By stopping your chatterAnd becoming silent, just becoming silent ! all is achieved.............. so say the Wise Watch, Become a Witness, a SeerThat is, If you so want ! If you want to enter the space of BlissWhich is your ownWhich does not die If you want your knowingTo be reflected in action, in conduct Ah !This One Answer is valid, though, If you are prepared to ' hear 'With your preoccupation with 'This and That ' set asideThis and That. How and Why.For ONE Moment . This Moment Now.NOW, my dear !!!!AUM narinder bhandari ------PRIOR POSTINGShree Hari|| Ram Ram ||Dear Vineetaji, thanks for asking a very important question.Swamiji Maharaj has explained in detail the answer to this question. in his discourses. The answer to this question is contained in Gitaji also.Six noteworthy points (not necessarily independent) which act as a stopper to spiritual progress:1. We have assumed strong relationship with the persons and the objects of the world, the sense of 'ME' and 'MINE'. Our deepest desire is to draw the pleasure from the world, this is totally misplaced thought since the world does not have the capacity to supply us sustained Sukha (pleasure) because Gitaji is calling this world as a Dukhalya (House of suffering, ref: Gita: 8-15).2. Love of money, the assumption it is the sure ticket to attain ultimate sustaining happiness, people become so sure of it that they are ready to commit a crime to get the money. 3. We have divided our life into two separate compartments, (Adhyatam / Sadhna) part and the activities of the day to day life. It is a common observation that potential spiritual aspirants work hard to gain more and more bookish knowledge (information only) and listen to the many discourses without changing their way of life. This knowledge serves only one purpose - to boost the ego, the person claims, I know and many others do not know. In fact this knowledge proves to be a burden, person is ready to unloaded this information to whoever he can find to listen to.4. The deep attachment to Bhoga (pleasure) and Sangrah (accumulation) does not allow us to have a single pointed-ness or focus for sustained effort for Sadhna (Ref. Gitaji 2/41-44).5. The assumption that Maya is the culprit for our deep attachment, the relationships of the world do not leave us, actually it is just the reverse we do not want to leave the relationships.6. Lack of urgency, the earnestness and sincerity (lagan) to pursue the spiritual path. Meera says "mere to Giridhar Gopal dusra na koi" Nothing else was important to her.|| Ram Ram ||Humble regards,Madan Kaura----------- Hari OmVineetaji ! You have asked a beautiful question. In fact we "know" but we do not"admit" ." Ham jaanate hain par ham maanate nahin". We know that whoever takes birth , dies. But when some one near and dear dies, we start crying. Why? Because inside, the importance of world is still there. We want to become happy, sure, but with worldly things. That then is not ANANDA. We want to gain knowledge, sure, but with books and of outer world. That then is not CHIT. We want to live forever, sure, but with this body. That then is not SAT. Desire for becoming SATCHIDANANDA is there in all of us, but erroneously we want to fulfil that desire with reference to the body/world/worldly things/worldly knowledge. Inside us, the importance of WORLD continues.Our acceptance thus is not firm and well placed. We melt before the worldly enticements. We are not able to relinquish deep rooted desire for "SUKH BHOG and SANGRAH' ( Consumption and accumulation) arising out of body and world.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------Ram Ram,your question, "why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know and have fully accepted that THIS IS IT"it is half true, because you just know THIS IS IT, you haven't accepted it. There are few ifs and buts which still remain.We just collect datas in our brain. We don't implement them. Had you accepted THIS IS IT, there is nothing easier than this. Because you need not do any thing. Yes, if you don't accept THAT IS IT, then it's the toughest thing. I could not understand why people have problem accepting it. Though it is the only truth. Yes it is the only truth.Ashok Goenka--------------------------- Dear Vineeta, many answers to this query have been given ................. shastras can be quoted on them............ and all are true .......................... But the two simple answers which bring Joy to narinder's heart ,............. which make him aware of the paradox of action and destiny , and also lead the resolution of the paradox, narinder gives below............. Ans 1.narinder cannot at this moment quote the exact reference, but he remembers reading two shalokas in the scriptures ..................... ONE: Till the Time comes for you to meditate, you will not be able to do soTWO ( next shaloka ) : BUT, if you think that the Time has not yet come, it will never come even in a thousand aeons ! Answer 2. Nisargadatta Maharaj was once asked the question asto why of all the thousands of disciples of his Guru, only he moved into enlightenment . His reply was , " This is one question that no enlightened person can truly answer. One can only say, ' perhaps my time had come '.....or, ' it was Grace ' ..." ah, dear sadhaks, who think that they are the Doers ( and almost everyone is into Doing, whereas the Truth is that you were never the Doer, only God is . ), all that they can do is to strive and strive ............ the results are only in God's hands ! Bh. Gt. Ch, 2/47 is applicable to one's sadhna too ! All the scriptures guide the Sadhaks as to how to ' DO' ( with what attitude, with what understanding ) so that the Ignorance of their being the Doers dies ............. and, the realisation of the Self or God being the only Doer dawns . It is 'not doing ; that is so peaceful, so blissful. That is why Krishna says , " Just surrender to me "( GT Ch. 18/66) But, surrender , too, is not a Doing..... it is an happening , it is Grace.. ...... ah ! Osho, the enlightened master, has said:, " People ask, what to do to move into Not-doing. There is no way. Yet I shall tell you what to do..................When you read the scriptures, or get the answers from the Knowers of Truth.............. sit down and see the facticity of the truth read or heard. Just close your eyes and look at your own Life ............. watch it ............. weight the various incidents of your Life in the facticity of the answer or the Truth . In that watching, the Doing will, one day, get dropped by itself. The true understanding of the answer or the truth will 'happen' by itself ." AUM narinder bhandari-----My dandavat pranams to all in this forum..... Your question, Vineeta, is a sincere and direct inquiry....what is the difficulty in executing the orders of the ancient sadhus, gurus, etc? I have personally found, in years gone by, that I had to analyze carefully who I took influence from. I say "influence" rather than guidance, because we can be influenced by persons whom we don't necessarily even go to for guidance! We become affected by comments, even when it is sometimes just a passerby, we might overhear a conversation, see something on TV, or, the worst of all, go to a counselor whom we think, possibly, (under illusion) because of the title, "professional" has some edge on giving us instruction. I have found that maturity is a matter of developing our own strength to know that we want to follow the standards of the scriptures, even if it is not popular, not seen as modern, "cool", or socially "what's happening". It is a commitment to ourselves, to the Lord, and not to the changing material world in general.praying my words are not a cause of pain to anyone,Mahalaksmi Dasi----Priy sadhika jiIt is difficult due to lack of practice. Like a right handed person faces difficulty to perform same work with left hand. Although both hands are equal & one have full knowledge & believe one can do it But even then with left hand one feels difficult to do the same thing what one is doing by right hand. It is practice.Thanxraja gurdasani--------------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites.7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).8. Do not personalize message9. All responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.Provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

May 28, 2009

Dear Sadhaks

I am new to this forum in the capacity of an initiator of a topic However i have d to this group for quite a while and I want to congratulate all concerned in creating this platform to allow people like me to enrich my spiritual space

I have been a student of Vedanta for the past 10 years and fully accept and surrender to our highest ancient Philosophy

My question is why is it so difficult to live that philosophy when you know and have fully accepted that THIS IS IT

Please enlighten....

vineeta malpani

----------------------

NEW POSTINGHari OmSwamiji once told a story of a "tapasvi" (Yogi doing hard austerity) doing tapasya under a tree for a long long time. Once Sage Narada passed that way and met him. He asked to Narada- Sir when will I realise Narayana ? Narada stated that I would check up with Naraina and revert. Narada went to Naraina and asked the Q reg that "tapasvi" . Lord said after as many births as are leaves on the tree under which he is sitting! Narada went and told the same to tapasvi. As soon as tapasvi heard , he became ecstatic and started dancing telling: I will definitely realise God.... I will definitely realise God.... God has confirmed... I will definitely realise God ! Instantly Naraina appeared before him, leaving Narada wondering !!!Moral is that become doubtfree; become of God... The human life has been given only for realisation; have faith and trust in Gita, be confident that God is looking at you, you will get His grace sooner than later. Why should we think that it is a long process? Think that it is a certainty !!Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ----Shree Hari-

Swami Rupesk Kumar Namaste,

I do not bother as a rule defending a criticism, all can learn yes!

My comment on this thread is pasted below:

' The engine that drove this process, was desire for the Truth.(maybe that is

the Core the Seed as it were to all spiritual paths).

The outcome was not seeing the aged, the afflicted physical or

emotional, the poor.....as anything but a beloved creations of 'The Divine''

Nothing about meditation, I have often said the burning desire for the truth is

the path I was on, I have never advocated meditation, as the way. Sometimes I

have said I like meditation, some like japa don't they.

Also it is impossible to know what I know about meditation as that is very

private to me, and I do not advocate any particular method.

So respected Swami where do you get this notion from?

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike (K)----------------------PRIOR POSTING

Dear Mr Deosharan and Mr Hari Shakar Deo

What is being echoed in these messages is that there is a step by step long process of "sadhana" essentially. No ! This is not the case. This is the case only when you have hesitation in going full fledged or want to sail in two boats.. For millions and trillions of births we are thinking that way only. Let us therefore see Holy Gita in a different angle. I agree with Divine Moderators that say 9:31 does not envisage any such process. Remember : this thought process in itself is the biggest delayer of sadhana. You are first considering mind to be yours. Then you set about the task of say meditation, tapasya, etc. But the hard fact is that none of the actions are capable of getting you near God ! How acts done by perishable body reach imperishable self/God ? Hence kindly revisit your views , considering seriously the argument given by Moderators. This meditation, this making Guru , etc are totally different things than Sadhana. Swamiji never advocated longer paths ( or rather endless paths). Such paths are advocated by Gurus for luring the chellas into their dens or by initial relief getters of meditation, presuming the relief to be the very peace. It is not that I dont meditate or not know what it means. Brother Mike Keenor teaches meditation. But how little they talk about it? Meditation, Tapasya etc are purifiers of antahkarana only ! NOTHING NOTHING MORE THAN THAT ! Even a first class meditator ultimately must relinquish shelter of mind/intellect/inert ! Gita is a different Scripture altogether. Dozens of methodologies are described in it. Why not take the easiest and fastest out of these??

Swami Rupesh Kumar ------------------------------

Dear Friend

In one sentence ,the understanding and knowing in intellectually only which at best is

superficial.Such understanding only increases suffering in life compared to those who

do not know and understand.

The message has to sink deep into heart and has to be realised experientially.

regards

Ashok Jain

---------------------------

Hari Om

Thanks for a very good message, Deosharanji. But I must state that "devotee" referred in BG is that person who has "become" of God. "Becoming of God" is a matter of "acceptance" . Acceptance is of "mineness" with God- which is a truth in itself even otherwise. That acceptance takes place in "kshipram" time-instantly ! Once you do that , by operation of Divine Laws stated in BG, the "steady wisdom", equanimity etc ("yogakshema") come to you automatically/effortlessly and guaranteed. You need not worry for the same. It is a promise to you by Holy Gita that Krishna will give you the same. Your job is over.

You just "become" of God by "resolving" (accepting) : Mere to Girdhar Gopal , Doosaro na Koi" ( I am of God, God is mine, Nothing else is mine)!

As simple as that !

Now tell me how practice or implementation of Gita Teachings is not direct and practical ? How it is time consuming? Note that Guarantees given in Gita run from the moment of resolution/decision/acceptance itself !! (BG 9:31)

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B ------------------------------

------------------------

How many sinners whom we know have attained sainthood? It isn't so

easy. I personally know Gurus who have attained enlightenment. Their

lives are examples. It wasn't so easy for them either. From their

birth their only goal was to attain sainthood. It must be the

culmination of many lives just as it took Buddha a hundred births to

become the Buddha and attain nirvana. If it was so easy everyone would become a saint.

Hari Shanker Deo ----------------

Narain ! Narain !!

Why difficult? Simple- reliance upon "jad" (inert). Only by self you can realise self ! Where is difficulty there ? What kind of cleaning is required for that element which is ever pure ( amal)? What steps? Oh ! This mind and these meditations ! What time does it take to resolve? Mere thought about Him and decision to move towards Him is enough. Read Gita 9:31. I agree with Respected Miraji Dass. What "stable wisdom" ? Note Deosharanji that all verses from 2:54 to 2:70 dealing with "stable wisdom" referred by you are achieved by your simple "samyag nischay" ( firm decision) under 9:31 ! Remember Sir : As you think so becomes the process. Stop thinking. No meditation, no tapasya, no austerity, no action can ever make you realise Him- says Swamiji, says Holy Gita, say the Divine Moderators ! What more comfort do you want? Go ahead. Did not Rajaji tell - FIX YOUR OBJECT ? Rest all will take care of itself. What meditation?

Narain Narain !

Naarad N Maharishi

-------------------------------

Dear Vineeta,

In the book called "The Road less travelled", the author writes something towards the end of the book, which I think is the simple answer to your question. He says that the first cardinal SIN if any, is LAZINESS. This "laziness" is the reason why we human don't achieve what we are inherently capable of achieving. To actualize the message of Gita will require effort and discipline, it will require that we "unlearn" and turn out-selves inside out and open our-selves to the LIGHT within and without. Of course, this change will ask for a lifetime of dedication ("sadhna"), this will ask for effort and the inherent laziness in most of us will prevent us from moving against the inertia. When our desire for God is greater than the inertia of laziness then it won't be difficult to actualize the message. But we can't keep waiting for our desire to grow because in the absence of effort even the desire will not grow and we will be exchanging the same kind of messages for the next 100 births. So instead of waiting to do the "complete surrender to god", we can take some tiny steps, which are not so difficult to implement. Like take steps to reduce the "noise" (thoughts) in our heads…whenever possible chant the name of god, while walking, standing in a queue or anything that does not involve our complete attention. Like devoting some 10 mins everyday meditating or praying or reading something inspiring. These baby steps, will one day allow us to gain enough momentum required to destroy the inertia in us caused by laziness. And we will be free and energetic and willing enough to take what it takes to completely actualize the message of Gita. Best regards,

A lazy Sadhak!

===============================

PRIOR POSTING

Namaste.

The message of GEETA is simple and direct, but the practice or implementation by human beings is not. One, perchance, in thousands of men, strives for perfection; and one perchance, among the blessed ones, striving thus, knows Me in reality GEETA 7:3

Only the pure devotees can know something of the inconceivable transcendental qualities in Krsna, in the cause of all causes, in His omnipotence and opulence, and in His wealth, fame, strength, beauty, knowledge and renunciation, because Krsna is benevolently inclined to His devotees. He is the last word in Brahman realization, and the devotees alone can realize Him as He is. Therefore it is said:

atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih

sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah

"No one can understand Krsna as He is by the blunt material senses. But He reveals Himself to the devotees, being pleased with them for their transcendental loving service unto Him." (Padma Purana)

To actualise, or live, the message of GEETA, we must become men and women of "steady

wisdom".

Lord Krishna said, "O Arjuna, when a man abandons all the desires of the mind and is satisfied in the Self by the Self; then he is said to be a person of steadfast wisdom." He whose mind is not shaken by adversity, who does not hanker after happiness, who has become free from affection, fear, and wrath, is indeed the Muni of steady wisdom

He who is everywhere unattached, not pleased at receiving good, nor vexed at evil, his wisdom is fixed

When also, like the tortoise its limbs, he can completely withdraw the senses from their objects, then his wisdom becomes steady

GEETA 2:55 to 58

That man who lives devoid of longing, abandoning all desires, without the sense of 'I' and 'mine,' he attains to peace. GEETA 2:71

Ram Ram,

Deosaran Bisnath

-------

Every Indian knows about the path of spiritual growth, but due to entanglement with the worldly pleasures and desires is unable to cultivate the dispassion and equanamity required to have a spiritual bent of mind. Unless we control our thoughts we cannot meditate and think about higher things. We know that our human life is the rarest of rare,given after 84 lakh births into many species. Only humans have the capacity of thought and reasoning. We are uniquely poised to progress into merging with the Paramatma or the Higher Self and avoiding the painful cycle of endless births and deaths. This path is not easy. Our Gurus have undergone years of gruelling tapas or samadhi and only then have seen the light. We can at least try to follow them.

Hari Shanker Deo

-------

Shree Hari Ram Ram Hari Shanker Deo ji, If what you say is correct, then why would Lord Krsna say in Gita 9:31 - With such a determination and exclusive aim, even the worst of worst sinners can attain saint hood (i.e. realize Bhagavan) very quickly "kshipram bhavati dharamaatmaa". (Gita 9:31). Lord Krsna would not say "kshipram" if it required grueling tapas, samadhi etc. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram ---------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhak,

Your question is worth following.Every sadhak knows that even reading one sloka ( verse )of Bhagavat Gita will helps s.How many of us read even one verse.I am reading one chapter My friend was reading the whole of the Bhagvata Geeta I know its results in my life.t is through our intution that we feel its power.Please follow its teachings.

Truly yours

Shankerprasad S Bhatt

-------

Hari Om

You are right, Devji Maharaj. But then "sadhana" necessarily implies "putting the ideals into practice". We all in this forum deliberate this transformation of "theory" into "practice" only. Once we accept - Yes! These ideals can be lived. Why they would appear in the Scriptures in the first place , if they are not practical?- then the path becomes very smooth. Our Chairman Raja Gurudasaniji calls it to be "AIM". If you fix your object to be - live ideals of Gitaji in practical life, be certain we are on right path.

Then as rightly stated by SS Bhattji , all Saints and Sages, Ramakrishna Paramhansa, Swami Vivekanand, Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, Satsanga, Scriptures will point you the way forward.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

---------------------

Shree Hari-

Brother Vyas,

Namaskar:

Your short message on death of Ego drew my focus, I saw sound advice in your

thoughts.

I went through a period of ego destruction,(I might add I am not free of it

yet), and yes methods of its demise can be manifold.

Without going into details, Grace seems to be part of it,(I was told this by the

One who helped me), I honestly did not realize what she was speaking of till

much later.

The engine that drove this process, was desire for the Truth.(maybe that is the

Core the Seed as it were to all spiritual paths).

The outcome was not seeing the aged, the afflicted physical or emotional, the

poor.....as anything but a beloved of creations of 'The Divine'.

Just reflecting.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike (Keenor)

----------------------

narinder thanks Vyas jee for his deep interest in helping him to progress in his spiritual Life.

ah, my friends,dear sadhakas true ......nari just asked of himself today, this Moment Now

wondered .... this moment now......if he had any more to say ..............

and he fell silent ...........any mental positions, nari ? none

any teachings from you for anyone ? None

any message to anyone .......? none .. !!!!

and ......this moment now................... any words for the self, for narinder .........?

" keep working on yourself , narinder .........all that nari has had to say ..............

all that came to him as a blessing, as joy and peace, as love , as wisdom

from the wise, as speech from silence,

lovingly has nari shared with narinder ............he has nothing more to add..............

all that he had to say, has been said ............

his heart, with love, joy and satisfaction of being, is filled ........................

much have you given to him, narinder ..........and even more from God he recieved ................

filled to the brim is nari .... and his vessel is now totally empty

revelling in timeless silence , his head he lays at Krishna's feet ................ "

nari's final words to thee are .....................

" Keep working on yourself, narinder ............ be yourself .............

love yourself, narinder, ............love yourself wisely ....................

keep working on yourself narinder and pay heed to what the knowers of Truth lovingly do say...

let not your Mind come too much into play ...........

all the buddhas are smiling on you............. and are ever guiding you ..........

just inhale their fragrance ......... holding your Mind from any comments , or judgement ...

and should you still feel the need for succour ............

go, lay your head at the feet of the saints and sages

and wash their feet with tears of Love .............

aapo deepo bhava, narinder

Blessings of the Buddhas be with thee ........."

and friends....................nari, narinder, the self, you and i, i and you ............... are not -two

have, in truth, never been TWO !

AUM

narinder bhandari

----------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Namaste

To answer your question, the message of the Gita is an ideal, it is what one strives to but it is not for everyday practicality of life. There are many deviations in human personality given the geneology, environment that one is socialized in, personality traits etc. Therefore, this is a set of principles that can transform one if applied. However, one has to transform ones way of seeing, thinking and living for this to bear fruit, for this to occur consistent efforts have to be made but it is not something that can be internalized and practiced in one shot. There are many circumstances that in some instances force one to act contrary to what is taught.

Best Regards

Dev Maharaj

------------------------

Hari Om

Sadhak Narinder's views about "spiritual ego" are worth reading. Messages like this are beneficial and take forward Satsanga. The real "spiritual ego" however continues to be "insistence on the methodology undertaken by Sadhak himself" - say meditation, or karma yoga etc. Real Sadhak will never say- "this method is only method" !

But again he ought to be very careful in expressions. Let it not flow unless when in poetic mood. Consider the opening remarks:

Quote

The deep desire for the Death of the False in us, the Death of ego, the Death of the self as it is at the Present Moment, is what makes a seeker True !

Unquote

Narinderji ! There is no false existing in us. Don't "accept" the existence of "False" in you. No amount of efforts/meditation/knowledge/sadhana can remove false/faults from you , if you accept them to be with you and then try to remove it. Reason: The very acceptance is faulty.

I hope my pin pointing subtle areas for your benefit and for bringing out the truth will be taken in right spirit by you. We all are here in this Satsanga to advance spiritually.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------

Dear vineetaji: Namaste

It is an excellent question why we cannot accept the world "AS IT IS" and move on. My understanding is also very simple based on a simple example. . Let us say a group of three people have seen a rose bush with lot of beautiful flowers. One persons get elated looking at it and wants to enjoy the beauty for ever looking from a distance, another looks at the thorns and feels dejected that he cannot get them easily and take them home and another does not even recognize that it existed on his way. The object is the same but gives rise to three different reactions. Why? Because each one projected his own mind on to the rose bush from his past impressions of roses. World is what we project our impressions on it and that is the problem why we cannot follow Gita's message although we understood it as a simple philosophy. In simple terms the world is what we want to it look like. The first one who appreciated the beauty from a distance is the one whom we should follow initially in our pursuit of looking at the world as it IS. Later on in the practice, we should develop dispassion in the sense whether we see this beautiful rose bush or heap of garbage it should not evoke any positive or negative reaction. Equanimity is central theme of Gita in my simple understanding and can be practiced easily if we put our mind to it every day, every minute of existence.

May the wisdom of looking at the 'World AS IT IS' prevail to reach the state of Bliss we all seek.

B.Vempaty

---------------------

Dear Sadhak

Even Vedantic truths are revealed in this Bhagvata Geeta.For more association with Vedant join Vedantic Society for books,lectures and other programs.This discussion will surely help you.Read the example of Mahatma Gandhi. He found reliefs after reading and reciting Bhagvat Geeta every day.I read Chapter XV of Gita every day.Have faith,devotion and concistency in reading Bhagvata Geeta and you will surely experience difference in your life.Read all books written by Ramakrishna Paramhansa and Swami Vivekanand besides participating in this group discussion.

Wishing all success to you

ï¿½

Truly yours

ï¿½

S S Bhatt

---------------------

Dear sadaks,

One knows THIS IS IT, cannot experience. One knows air craft/train/bus. Can it be driven until trained. Semi trained also risky/dangerous. One knows petrol, but can it be got, without acquiring through knowledge how to get from earth and it requires team work.

Now that you know GOD exits and man has all the ability to become Godly. But knowledge(Gyana), skill (sadana), Vairag (Determination) does not happen though the mind tells one should become GODLY. To gain unworthy fame one works day and night. To gain infinity it is not easy.

In collage one studies but practical is vital to get through the exams. To get VITAL what sacrifice one does?

Example: Sidharam at teen age had strong desire (desire tool used here) to see Bagavan Shiva. He was told serveral ways to attain Godlyness, but it failed. He decided to jump off a cliff as he thought his human birth is waste. He jumped, but suddenly he realized some one lifting him off from the fall. On the cliff top he was placed and saw Bagavan Shiva and Parvathi. Visit HIS jeeva samadhi 2 Km from Sholapur.

Baktha Gora cut his both hands for a promise on Bagavan Vital. Bagavan came in disguise and worked as servant in Gora house and at end he realized it was Sri Krishna. To get that status one need to renounce totally and surrender. Bagavan waited until Sidharam jumped off and Gora cut his hands. Sadaks note Bagavan never came just before jumping or cutting hands. Action done. The untimate Karma pala (renouncing action) bears the experiencing GOD.

Bagavan said to be experienced by Gyana, which is in Sabdha roop ( devine Sound mentioned in scripts) Ref: Upanashid and Bagavath.

Sotra/Mantra: 1) Hare Rama Hare Krishna. 2) Sri rama rama Ramethi- Ramerama Mano rame. Over period of decades sounds change like people character change. Children names are called Pinky and Tinky. Varun or Marun.

Keethana or Keethi. These sounds have no divine touch. Those days, they called Krishna/Rama/Govinda/ Mukundha/Purushothama. Slowly it changed to Krishn, Ram/ Govind, Mukundh, Purushoth. Each Sabdha (sound) has specific effect. To day still worse. If one does Havon Kundh/Yagna, it can be noted the sound, Rama/Krishna/Kesava Etc. Earlier I posted the important of the letters "a", which is today left and called Ram. Got accustomed (Deep Vasana of Sound) one does not want to change and says it is Bavana importance. For Rama (God sake) sake, for HIS love sake can we change? Then how it is possible to elevate to infinity with hidden ego/not recognisable ego.

Bear with me sadaks.

B.Sathyanarayan

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it is because siddhant is an ideal condition whereas in practical there are several deviations which distract us.we always see others actions & try to imitate or follow. it is instinctive since childhood. therefore it is a saying that parvarish mus be good. people living in ashrams follow their gurus and make their life. similarly in home also child follow maata pita.

In manas prabhuji says GUN YAH UBHAY NA DEKHIYE DEKHIYA SO ABIBEK.

Raja Gurdasani

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PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Swamiji says - It is difficult to actualize the message of Bhagavad Gita only due to our deep attachment to sense enjoyments! God Realization is not difficult, but giving up attachment to enjoyment and sense pleasures is difficult.

The Lord has said in the Gita :

"Bhogaisvaryaprasaktaanam tayaapahrtacetasaam

vyavasaayaatmikaa buddhih samaadhau na vidheeyate."

"No mind that is lured by sense-objects and engrossed in sensual enjoyments and glory of material possessions can ever enter, O, Partha, the state of contemplation and divine communion

transcendental." *

He who is intensely attached to sense-enjoyments and acquisition of material things, cannot even conceive or decide on moving towards God. There is no resolve to turn towards God, and when this resolve is not strong enough, where is the question of God-Realization ?

Meera Das, Ram Ram

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dear sadhaks ,

The deep desire for the Death of the False in us, the Death of ego, the Death of the self as it is at the Present Moment, is what makes a seeker True ! A true Seeker's yearning , pining , thirsting heart gasping for Breath , as it were !!!!!

His food and drink, thereafter, are the words of the Saints and Sages the Knowers of Truth !

His Joy and Happiness lie in the experiences that lead his Mind into Silence Into the No- Mind state !

Sometimes, the spiritual ego becomes a real barrier to our spiritual progress ! The thoughts of Maitreya Ishwara below are for narinder a real Joy to meditate on !

SPRITUAL EGO

the spiritual ego is subtle, cunning

superior, inferior and secretive.

the spiritual ego develops because ego

has to live somewhere until it dissolves.

if you are a seeker of truth, the ego

identifies with your quest and can become

serious and secretly superior.

the inner reality of seekers is never

quite as beautiful as the ideals of their tradition

and they decorate their ego so it looks a little nicer.

this is a common trap for many seekers

and one from which it is difficult to escape.

authenticity and playfulness are the antidote.

for this you will need support from those

who are already living in this way.

when the ideal is authenticity, not purity, you

are free to be yourself.

authenticity and playfulness give you the

space to face yourself as you are and to

confront your darkness consciously.

this conscious self-encounter brings purity

indirectly, without the hypocritical burden

of a spiritually pure ego.

~Maitreya Ishwara

AUM