Are Some Paths More Direct? How to Get Past Dogmas towards Common Ground?

[Guest guest]

-Shree Hari-

 

Dear Brethren,

 

What I have found is that the biggest stumbling block is dogma, it

can act as a block to progress. But if one steps around these blocks,

driven by ones own insight, then yes one will arrive at the common

ground, metaphorically the Christian will stand hand in hand with

Jain, Hindu, and Muslim etc, having also completed their winding

path.

Simple example, reincarnation, from a scriptural and intuitive point

of view it must be. And yet of course the Church denies it.

(In all probability some paths are more direct).

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

--------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, address

etc) or personalize message to particular person

7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modify

the posting.

8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. Limit the use to Sanskrit words and provide English word

bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

 

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[Guest guest]

-Shree Hari-

Dear Brethren,

What I have found is that the biggest stumbling block is dogma, itcan act as a block to progress. But if one steps around these blocks,driven by ones own insight, then yes one will arrive at the commonground, metaphorically the Christian will stand hand in hand withJain, Hindu, and Muslim etc, having also completed their windingpath.Simple example, reincarnation, from a scriptural and intuitive pointof view it must be. And yet of course the Church denies it.(In all probability some paths are more direct).

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

--------------------------

NEW POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

Christianity said the following: 1) That world is square in old testoment. Hindu says yes, as it has Chathur Yug 4 Yugas in a square depicted in Vishnu Puran. Quran of Muslims say the world in Char (Four) slots that is 4 Yugas. 2) Christians says NO rebirth or incarnation. Here incarnation is differant from birth. It is saying about Athuman (Holy Sprit) that has no birth. Sri Krishna says Athuman has NO death or births. 3) Christians say,(a) "Love thy Neighbour as thyself. (b) Do not cast your eyes on your neighbour` s wife. © Show the other cheek when slapped. (d)There is only One God that is Christ"". For (a) Survam Vasudeva Mayam (b) Kama-Lust when seeing somebody wife Ref Vishnu Puran © forgiveness (Sowlabiyam) lived Example Sri Ekanath Maharaj of recent (d) only one Paramathuma. Christians can note Whom is Christ often calls "Oh my father In Heavens" Hindus say God is formless and can attain any form. Muslims pray formless. Some Christians this as well as that.

This is what Sri Krishna In Geetha has said to people "Moodha" (Ignorant).--- Not going in deep in scripts is cause.

Jai Sri Krishna

-----------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Brother Mike, right you are, some paths are more direct.Direct paths, as I understand them, bypass dogmas, as useful as they may be for some in initial stages. It is like bypasses/loops built around the city for those traveling beyond the city. In-city and out of city traffic get helped in this ways.The approach of Vedanta is direct Realization of who/what we are. Therefore, upon such Realization, all our actions come from this Truth of us, and not from not-knowing ourselves. Truth liberates, and ignorance, as much as we say is bliss, nevertheless, binds us. As you say in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/dogmatic/progressive ways to liberation. How do we get past dogmas? Again, as you say, seeing the commonality in them helps to a great extent to broaden our visions, so we can drop/bypass non-essentials at the time. In my experience, I see more and more common elements in all of them now than before, and if for some reasons, I see conflicting views, I resolve in one of two ways: Either I don't know/interpret in the context/spirit it should be, or it is not relevant at this time for me.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

-----------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit the use to Sanskrit words and provide English wordbracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

---------------

 

[Guest guest]

-Shree Hari-

Dear Brethren,

What I have found is that the biggest stumbling block is dogma, itcan act as a block to progress. But if one steps around these blocks,driven by ones own insight, then yes one will arrive at the commonground, metaphorically the Christian will stand hand in hand withJain, Hindu, and Muslim etc, having also completed their windingpath.Simple example, reincarnation, from a scriptural and intuitive pointof view it must be. And yet of course the Church denies it.(In all probability some paths are more direct).

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

--------------------------

NEW POSTING

Dear Gita Sadhak Bandhus,

In our humble opinion, it is not the common elements that are important but those that are particular. There are many things that are common in humans and animals. Can they, therefore, become the same, or be treated like the same on that account?

It was argued: "There is one God that is Christ", and Hindu says, "Survum Vasudeva Mayam". This is not commonalty and cannot prove similarity of the two.

The neighbour's wife, one's wife and daughter have many elements that are common. They are all females, have head, neck, feet, limbs and feminine organs which are common, besides many others. But, on that basis, can one be replaced by the other? Can the daughter or the neighbour's wife also become one's wife, act as such, or be treated as such?

Similarly, in our humble opinion (the manner in which understood) Brahm and Christian God are not the same. The latter resides in the seventh heavens, while Brahm is every where and in everything. How can the two be the same, therefore?

In Gita Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Eeshvarah sarva bhootaanaam hrid-deshe Arjuna tishtthati (18:61); meaning thereby, that Eeshvar dwells in the heart of all beings. Now, who else says that? Do Judaism, Islam and Christianity also say the same?

Then it was also said: … in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/ dogmatic/ progressive ways to liberation. But, how can there be ways to liberation the concept of it in various religions; when there is not even a talk of liberation or Moksha in them.

Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Yaanti deva-vrataa devaan, pitreen-yaanti pitri-vrataah/ bhootaani yaanti bhoot-ejyaa, yaanti mad-yaajino'pi maam// (9:25); meaning: MY votaries, My worshippers, reach Me, and those of the Devas, Pitris, and Bhutas reach them; not Me. Then it is unclear, how will worshippers of other reach Krishna then?

We have placed some of the doubts that have crossed into our mind when we read the above post and on account of which we think Sadhna on the basis of commonalty shall not lead to the destination we have chosen for ourselves as Gita Sadhaks. And, therefore, we should stick to the paths shown by the Scriptures and our great ancestors rather than devising or searching for new ones. Bhagawan Manu, the progenitor of human race, has taught us:

Yenaasya pitaro yaataa, yena yaataah pitaa-mahaah/

Tena yaayaat-sataam maargam, tena gachhan-na rishyate// 4:178

which means, follow in the footsteps of your fathers and grand-fathers, the path taken by your ancestors, the sat-purushaas. So doing, one will not meet any harm.

With apologies,

Dr. Ranjeet Singh

--------------------------

This is my opinion .......

The Great Thinkers of the Past (GTPs) had a powerful sixth sence and intuition.They observed, felt, experienced in the Nature around, within lifeforms, withinmankind and within themselves something physical, they analysed it with theiracute intelligence and described it to the best of their abilities, knowledgeand language in the form of religious scriptures.Now we we are more evolved in knowledge, information, means of observations, andresources of experience. We can as well feel the same physical sense andinterpret it with the help of scientific knowledge and information. We now havethe backing of experimental results and information. I feel, the Great Thinkersof the Present (GTPs again) should review the past scriptures, instead ofbelieving in them blindly, and correct them whereever needed.I am aware of the fact that my views and assumptions will not be easily accepted...but I hope, to some individuals, it may be appealing....Gee Waman

-----

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Paramatma is Eternal, and Paramatma's message (Eternal Laws and Principles - Dharma) is also eternal and unchanging not perishable and limited by time, space, causation.

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

Christianity said the following: 1) That world is square in old testoment. Hindu says yes, as it has Chathur Yug 4 Yugas in a square depicted in Vishnu Puran. Quran of Muslims say the world in Char (Four) slots that is 4 Yugas. 2) Christians says NO rebirth or incarnation. Here incarnation is differant from birth. It is saying about Athuman (Holy Sprit) that has no birth. Sri Krishna says Athuman has NO death or births. 3) Christians say,(a) "Love thy Neighbour as thyself. (b) Do not cast your eyes on your neighbour` s wife. © Show the other cheek when slapped. (d)There is only One God that is Christ"". For (a) Survam Vasudeva Mayam (b) Kama-Lust when seeing somebody wife Ref Vishnu Puran © forgiveness (Sowlabiyam) lived Example Sri Ekanath Maharaj of recent (d) only one Paramathuma. Christians can note Whom is Christ often calls "Oh my father In Heavens" Hindus say God is formless and can attain any form. Muslims pray formless. Some Christians this as well as that.This is what Sri Krishna In Geetha has said to people "Moodha" (Ignorant).--- Not going in deep in scripts is cause. Jai Sri Krishna-----------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Brother Mike, right you are, some paths are more direct.Direct paths, as I understand them, bypass dogmas, as useful as they may be for some in initial stages. It is like bypasses/loops built around the city for those traveling beyond the city. In-city and out of city traffic get helped in this ways.The approach of Vedanta is direct Realization of who/what we are. Therefore, upon such Realization, all our actions come from this Truth of us, and not from not-knowing ourselves. Truth liberates, and ignorance, as much as we say is bliss, nevertheless, binds us. As you say in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/dogmatic/progressive ways to liberation. How do we get past dogmas? Again, as you say, seeing the commonality in them helps to a great extent to broaden our visions, so we can drop/bypass non-essentials at the time. In my experience, I see more and more common elements in all of them now than before, and if for some reasons, I see conflicting views, I resolve in one of two ways: Either I don't know/interpret in the context/spirit it should be, or it is not relevant at this time for me.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

-----------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit the use to Sanskrit words and provide English wordbracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

---------------

 

 

[Guest guest]

-Shree Hari-

Dear Brethren,

What I have found is that the biggest stumbling block is dogma, itcan act as a block to progress. But if one steps around these blocks,driven by ones own insight, then yes one will arrive at the commonground, metaphorically the Christian will stand hand in hand withJain, Hindu, and Muslim etc, having also completed their windingpath.Simple example, reincarnation, from a scriptural and intuitive pointof view it must be. And yet of course the Church denies it.(In all probability some paths are more direct).

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

--------------------------

NEW POSTING

-Shree Hari-Dear Dr. Ranjeet Singh,I am not sure if you are comparing people of other faiths along with animals, 'no chance of Moksha, not in this life any way'.Mysticism (as difined in the Wikipedia).Nullification and absorption within God's Infinite Light (Chassidic schools of Judaism)Complete detachment from the world (Kaivalya in some schools of Hinduism, including Sankhya and Yoga; Jhana in Buddhism)Liberation from the cycles of Karma (Moksha in Jainism and Hinduism, Nirvana In Buddhism)Deep intrinsic connection to the world (Satori in Mahayana Buddhism, Te in Taoism)Union with God (Henosis in Neoplatonism and Theosis in Christianity, Brahma-Prapti or Brahma-Nirvana in Hinduism)Innate Knowledge (Irfan and fitra in Islam) Experience of one's true blissful nature (Samadhi or Svarupa-Avirbhava in Hinduism)According to Jesus, the Kingdom of God is within (or among) people,[3] is approached through understanding,[4] and entered through acceptance like a child,[5] spiritual rebirth,[6] and doing the will of God. (Ex Wikipedia)The Seventh Heaven is something I know nothing of, But it is in the Kabbalah; apparently, never heard of it in Christianity.Jesus answered , "I have not a demon; but I honor my Father...." The Jews said, " You are not yet fifty years old, and you say you have seen Abraham? Jesus said to them truly truly I say to you before Abraham, I am...."."Who sinned that that man be born blind, he or his parents?"Elijah has come.... and they understood he spoke of John th Baptist,(Reincarnated after 300 years)Reincarnation was taught by the western Church until 553 AD.Can one see that the Mystic cannot be tied up with dogma.Now can one grasp how the intellect, can mull over the paradoxes twixt dogma and the written, to the point where one has to go so deep with the desire for the Truth, reaching for the Divine, to the point where you fear for your life by what you find, but cannot let go?Can one understand what I am writing about, do you think that I am a closet Christian ?I love the 'Divine Beloved'.BHAGAVAD GITA Ch:929. The same am I to all beings; to me there is none hateful or dear; but thosewho worship me with devotion are in me and I am also in them.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor---

"Lift up the self by the Self And do not let the self droop down. For the Self is the self's only friend And the self is the Self's only foe." - Sri Krishna (from The Bhagavad Gita)"Ben"

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My dear mike

love god and thats all u need.

whats this fuss all about.

Thanx

Raja gurdasani

---------------------

Dear Sadhakas,Hare KrishnaIn Bhagavad-Gita Lord Krishna explains as to who is a perfect devotee" Mayy avesya mano ye mam, nitya ukta upasate sraddhaya parayopetas, te me yuktatama matah " ( Gita 12, 2 )which means"Those who fix their minds in me and are always engaged in worshipping Me with the great transcendental faith are considered by me to be the most perfect"Lord Krishna also described who is very dear to Him."advesta sarva bhutanam , maitra karuna eva ca, nirmamo nirahankarah,sama-dukha-sukhah kshami, santustah satatam yogi, yatatma dhruda niscayahmayyarpita -mano-buddhir,yo mad-bhaktah sa me priyah" (Gita 12,,13 and 14)which means" One who has no hatred towards any one,a friend to all, who has no ego,who is equal both in happiness and sorrow, who is always satisfied, self contolled, tolerant and who is engaged in devotional service with his mind and intelligence , fixed in me- such a devotee is very dear to Me."Importance of devotional service is clearly stressed here. Pure devotional service with compassion towards every one is Bhakti Yoga." Yajnanam japa- yajnosmi " (Gita 10, 25) which means " Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names" (Japa)...chanting of the holy names " Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare, Hare Krishna Hare Krishna ,Krishna Krishna Hare Hare" is simple and pureIn this Kali Yuga, this chanting is highly recommended and it is very practical.Chaitanya Mahaprabhu conducted this sankirtana (japa) yajna five hundred years ago.This is a direct path to attain the Lord.Let us chant and be peaceful and happyHare KrishnaPrasad.Iragavarapu, M.D

--Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

The response is more focused on Sadhaks then the Paths....

 

From Swamiji's teachings -

A sadhak (seeker, aspirant) must get past dogmas and not have insistence on his own regarding any doctrines, opinions, philosophical ideas, religious sect or religious community that he belongs to. Rather he must act in accordance to their teachings. Insistent on opinions and philosophical ideas of his own religious sect, creates animosity with other sects. Thus he is unable to be open minded and free of biases and will be deprived of good learnings from all.

Generally the limitations are our own understanding, not in them. Therefore if any of their actions are not understood by us, and appear flawed to us, then personally we must not pursue and act on those things.

 

Simply speaking .... Paramatma is only One - though Names and Forms / Formless aspects may be different.

 

There is no gain in any of this. Do not favor one view over another and have no differences. All this is a waste of time. Simply get engaged in God and God alone, as this birth is only for that purpose. Oh Lord, Oh Lord ! Pray that you do not get entangled in dogmas, doctrines, sects, philosophical ideas, Organizations, Groups etc. There is simply no gain in any of this - says Swamiji.

 

Meera Das

Ram Ram ------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Gita Sadhak Bandhus,

In our humble opinion, it is not the common elements that are important but those that are particular. There are many things that are common in humans and animals. Can they, therefore, become the same, or be treated like the same on that account?

It was argued: "There is one God that is Christ", and Hindu says, "Survum Vasudeva Mayam". This is not commonalty and cannot prove similarity of the two.

The neighbour's wife, one's wife and daughter have many elements that are common. They are all females, have head, neck, feet, limbs and feminine organs which are common, besides many others. But, on that basis, can one be replaced by the other? Can the daughter or the neighbour's wife also become one's wife, act as such, or be treated as such?

Similarly, in our humble opinion (the manner in which understood) Brahm and Christian God are not the same. The latter resides in the seventh heavens, while Brahm is every where and in everything. How can the two be the same, therefore?

In Gita Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Eeshvarah sarva bhootaanaam hrid-deshe Arjuna tishtthati (18:61); meaning thereby, that Eeshvar dwells in the heart of all beings. Now, who else says that? Do Judaism, Islam and Christianity also say the same?

Then it was also said: … in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/ dogmatic/ progressive ways to liberation. But, how can there be ways to liberation the concept of it in various religions; when there is not even a talk of liberation or Moksha in them.

Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Yaanti deva-vrataa devaan, pitreen-yaanti pitri-vrataah/ bhootaani yaanti bhoot-ejyaa, yaanti mad-yaajino'pi maam// (9:25); meaning: MY votaries, My worshippers, reach Me, and those of the Devas, Pitris, and Bhutas reach them; not Me. Then it is unclear, how will worshippers of other reach Krishna then?

We have placed some of the doubts that have crossed into our mind when we read the above post and on account of which we think Sadhna on the basis of commonalty shall not lead to the destination we have chosen for ourselves as Gita Sadhaks. And, therefore, we should stick to the paths shown by the Scriptures and our great ancestors rather than devising or searching for new ones. Bhagawan Manu, the progenitor of human race, has taught us:

Yenaasya pitaro yaataa, yena yaataah pitaa-mahaah/

Tena yaayaat-sataam maargam, tena gachhan-na rishyate// 4:178

which means, follow in the footsteps of your fathers and grand-fathers, the path taken by your ancestors, the sat-purushaas. So doing, one will not meet any harm.

With apologies,

Dr. Ranjeet Singh

--------------------------

This is my opinion .......

The Great Thinkers of the Past (GTPs) had a powerful sixth sence and intuition.They observed, felt, experienced in the Nature around, within lifeforms, withinmankind and within themselves something physical, they analysed it with theiracute intelligence and described it to the best of their abilities, knowledgeand language in the form of religious scriptures.

Now we we are more evolved in knowledge, information, means of observations, andresources of experience. We can as well feel the same physical sense andinterpret it with the help of scientific knowledge and information. We now havethe backing of experimental results and information. I feel, the Great Thinkersof the Present (GTPs again) should review the past scriptures, instead ofbelieving in them blindly, and correct them whereever needed.

I am aware of the fact that my views and assumptions will not be easily accepted...but I hope, to some individuals, it may be appealing.

....Gee Waman

-----

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Paramatma is Eternal, and Paramatma's message (Eternal Laws and Principles - Dharma) is also eternal and unchanging not perishable and limited by time, space, causation.

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

Christianity said the following: 1) That world is square in old testoment. Hindu says yes, as it has Chathur Yug 4 Yugas in a square depicted in Vishnu Puran. Quran of Muslims say the world in Char (Four) slots that is 4 Yugas. 2) Christians says NO rebirth or incarnation. Here incarnation is differant from birth. It is saying about Athuman (Holy Sprit) that has no birth. Sri Krishna says Athuman has NO death or births. 3) Christians say,(a) "Love thy Neighbour as thyself. (b) Do not cast your eyes on your neighbour` s wife. © Show the other cheek when slapped. (d)There is only One God that is Christ"". For (a) Survam Vasudeva Mayam (b) Kama-Lust when seeing somebody wife Ref Vishnu Puran © forgiveness (Sowlabiyam) lived Example Sri Ekanath Maharaj of recent (d) only one Paramathuma. Christians can note Whom is Christ often calls "Oh my father In Heavens" Hindus say God is formless and can attain any form. Muslims pray formless. Some Christians this as well as that.This is what Sri Krishna In Geetha has said to people "Moodha" (Ignorant).--- Not going in deep in scripts is cause. Jai Sri Krishna-----------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Brother Mike, right you are, some paths are more direct.Direct paths, as I understand them, bypass dogmas, as useful as they may be for some in initial stages. It is like bypasses/loops built around the city for those traveling beyond the city. In-city and out of city traffic get helped in this ways.The approach of Vedanta is direct Realization of who/what we are. Therefore, upon such Realization, all our actions come from this Truth of us, and not from not-knowing ourselves. Truth liberates, and ignorance, as much as we say is bliss, nevertheless, binds us. As you say in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/dogmatic/progressive ways to liberation. How do we get past dogmas? Again, as you say, seeing the commonality in them helps to a great extent to broaden our visions, so we can drop/bypass non-essentials at the time. In my experience, I see more and more common elements in all of them now than before, and if for some reasons, I see conflicting views, I resolve in one of two ways: Either I don't know/interpret in the context/spirit it should be, or it is not relevant at this time for me.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

-----------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit the use to Sanskrit words and provide English wordbracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

---------------

 

 

[Guest guest]

-Shree Hari-

Dear Brethren,

What I have found is that the biggest stumbling block is dogma, itcan act as a block to progress. But if one steps around these blocks,driven by ones own insight, then yes one will arrive at the commonground, metaphorically the Christian will stand hand in hand withJain, Hindu, and Muslim etc, having also completed their windingpath.Simple example, reincarnation, from a scriptural and intuitive pointof view it must be. And yet of course the Church denies it.(In all probability some paths are more direct).

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

--------------------------

NEW POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

There is line in Bible, ""Empty they self I shall fill it"". This same thing Bagavan in Geetha has said. Contemplate.

Once Sadaks who took to sanyasin sitting inside there hut were arguing about a boulder outside the hut, as the stone boulder was Granite or Not. A saint passing by hearing this argument said to them, "" You sadaks please tell me whether the stone inside or outside"". What was the saint saying?

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan.

---------

Namaste! Dear Sadhakas!My humble and respectful response to our Brother Dr Ranjeet Singh is as follows:If we can see commonality among various religious practices, we can be moreunderstanding and respectful of other traditions and hence can live peacefullywhile pursuing our own path. Our paths are generally determined by prevailingreligious practices of the place and time into which we are born. So when we seecommonality, it doesn't mean we give up what appeals to us easily. It is theappreciation of other paths that is stressed here in our comments.Life is One, Truth is One, various are Its expressions all lovely and beautiful!However, if we concentrate on differences, we are likely to be defensive andfight for wrong reasons!

What is common among human relationship is Love which when recognized as themost important element, lets us play appropriate roles as men and women. Love isIntelligence that knows the differences in relationships. Then gender,nationality, race, don't seem to matter! If Love is lacking then only thesebecome issues.

In my understanding there are common elements between non-dual teaching ofVedanta, Zen-Buddhism, Sufi aspects in Islam, Hasidic teachings(I think it is)of Judaism, Taoism, Contemplative Christianity. It is just heartening to knowsuch is the case. Why emphasize differences?

Jesus never claimed to be God, he is the son of God. He had Realized Self. He isChrist-Consciousness. Bypassing the dogmas, we can feel/experience God, theSpirit according to Bible, is like Supreme Consciousness, Brahman! God is justrepresentation of Oneness, not located at a place. We should not go by whatwords are used because it depends on the context and the audiences.The beautiful aspects of Christianity are service to all with devotion, charity,and sacrifice for fellow human beings. Such qualities are to be admired, ratherthan saying they don't have concept of liberation.

When Krishna addresses Him as "Me" in Gita, it means Supreme Consciousness onlyspeaking through Historical figure Krishna in Human form. This means all canworship Him in whatever forms they worship with this Understanding in their ownways.

Finally we are not reinventing new paths, we are stressing the importance ofseeing the underlying commonality across all religious practices once the dogmasare seen for what they are and bypassed! It is inspiring to know mankindeverywhere else have also thought about the same Truth and expressed in theirown language and circumstances! We are just lucky to have Vedas where we are asmuch as they are to have theirs!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

----------

-Shree Hari-

Dear Dr. Ranjeet Singh, It was argued: "There is one God that is Christ", sorry absolute nonsense, and by they way I will show by your arguments my point is valid. Christ kept referring to His Father, and said he could do nothing without His Father, he surrendered to His Fathers will, even when he thought he had been abandoned. Jesus said also, Father forgive them for they ...", he did not say "I forgive you". The nature of Jesus was not taken by Christianity from the bible, but spun by Greeko/Roman neo Pagans.See ex Wikipedia 'Between 325 and 681, Christians theologically articulated and refined their view of the nature of Jesus by a series of SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS' THUS THE DOGMA. I will add that all Christian festivals are thinly disguised Pagan festivals. Reference to Moksha, Jesus said"The Kingdom of GOD is not coming with signs to be observed ....fore the kingdom is in the mids of you. Also, "The kingdom has come but you see it not". Also I have quoted before the death of Ego, surrendering ones life,.. Read Julian of Norwich insights of of the 'Divine Indwelling'(SELF), I posted just recently. You are confusing, the Mystic with the Fundamentalist, that was the point in my comment. By the way why do I read Sadhaks refer to Lord Krishna as Bhagavan. "As Men come to me...." I could debate and argue this further, but......?

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike (Keenor).

---------------------------

Pranaams.

 

According to the Dictionary; Dogma is:

 

 

 

 

1.

a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.

 

 

 

 

2.

a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.

 

 

 

 

3.

prescribed doctrine: political dogma.

 

 

 

 

4.

a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle.

 

In belief system--Sanatana Dharma, we have the freedom/right to interact with Bhagwaan however He inspires us to. Meaning that how we feel about Bhagwaan has a relation to how He(She) wants us to. Ours is not manmade religion with --specific rules. such as--you have to pray so many times a day,fast on certain days or else you must give a percentage of your earnings etc. Concepts of Bhakti and Prema are beautifully explored in messages of Bhagwaan. Fear is not a concept created by Bhagwaan rather it is Love of God.The problem is that some Sampradayas too have made up rules and this is what causes problems in Sanatana Dharma. Eg, some say that The Lord will not accept food that has onions and garlic. etc. Rules and more rules which sometime scare people away. We have seen from the Kathas of many Bhaktas that there is no boundary between The Lord and His Devotee--He accepted basi fruit as Sri Rama. People use isolated verses from Scriptures to create Dogma in Sanatana Dharma and we must be wary of this.

 

Dogma scares people away from The Divine while Sanatana Dharma is the eternal natural path to Union with The Divine. We get pass Dogma we reach The Divine faster.

 

Regards,

Nanda

TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)

 

---------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

Dear Dr. Ranjeet Singh,

I am not sure if you are comparing people of other faiths along with animals, 'no chance of Moksha, not in this life any way'.

Mysticism (as difined in the Wikipedia).

Nullification and absorption within God's Infinite Light (Chassidic schools of Judaism)Complete detachment from the world (Kaivalya in some schools of Hinduism, including Sankhya and Yoga; Jhana in Buddhism)Liberation from the cycles of Karma (Moksha in Jainism and Hinduism, Nirvana In Buddhism)Deep intrinsic connection to the world (Satori in Mahayana Buddhism, Te in Taoism)Union with God (Henosis in Neoplatonism and Theosis in Christianity, Brahma-Prapti or Brahma-Nirvana in Hinduism)Innate Knowledge (Irfan and fitra in Islam) Experience of one's true blissful nature (Samadhi or Svarupa-Avirbhava in Hinduism)According to Jesus, the Kingdom of God is within (or among) people,[3] is approached through understanding,[4] and entered through acceptance like a child,[5] spiritual rebirth,[6] and doing the will of God. (Ex Wikipedia)The Seventh Heaven is something I know nothing of, But it is in the Kabbalah; apparently, never heard of it in Christianity.

Jesus answered , "I have not a demon; but I honor my Father...." The Jews said, " You are not yet fifty years old, and you say you have seen Abraham? Jesus said to them truly truly I say to you before Abraham, I am...."."Who sinned that that man be born blind, he or his parents?"Elijah has come.... and they understood he spoke of John th Baptist,(Reincarnated after 300 years)Reincarnation was taught by the western Church until 553 AD.Can one see that the Mystic cannot be tied up with dogma.Now can one grasp how the intellect, can mull over the paradoxes twixt dogma and the written, to the point where one has to go so deep with the desire for the Truth, reaching for the Divine, to the point where you fear for your life by what you find, but cannot let go?Can one understand what I am writing about, do you think that I am a closet Christian ?I love the 'Divine Beloved'.BHAGAVAD GITA Ch:929. The same am I to all beings; to me there is none hateful or dear; but thosewho worship me with devotion are in me and I am also in them.

With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor

---

"Lift up the self by the Self And do not let the self droop down. For the Self is the self's only friend And the self is the Self's only foe." - Sri Krishna (from The Bhagavad Gita)"Ben"

---------------------

My dear mike love god and thats all u need.whats this fuss all about.ThanxRaja gurdasani---------------------Dear Sadhakas,Hare Krishna

In Bhagavad-Gita Lord Krishna explains as to who is a perfect devotee

" Mayy avesya mano ye mam, nitya ukta upasate sraddhaya parayopetas, te me yuktatama matah " ( Gita 12, 2 )

which means

"Those who fix their minds in me and are always engaged in worshipping Me with the great transcendental faith are considered by me to be the most perfect"

Lord Krishna also described who is very dear to Him.

"advesta sarva bhutanam , maitra karuna eva ca, nirmamo nirahankarah,sama-dukha-sukhah kshami, santustah satatam yogi, yatatma dhruda niscayahmayyarpita -mano-buddhir,yo mad-bhaktah sa me priyah" (Gita 12,,13 and 14)

which means

" One who has no hatred towards any one,a friend to all, who has no ego,who is equal both in happiness and sorrow, who is always satisfied, self contolled, tolerant and who is engaged in devotional service with his mind and intelligence , fixed in me- such a devotee is very dear to Me."

Importance of devotional service is clearly stressed here. Pure devotional service with compassion towards every one is Bhakti Yoga.

" Yajnanam japa- yajnosmi " (Gita 10, 25) which means " Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names" (Japa)...chanting of the holy names " Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare, Hare Krishna Hare Krishna ,Krishna Krishna Hare Hare" is simple and pure

In this Kali Yuga, this chanting is highly recommended and it is very practical.

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu conducted this sankirtana (japa) yajna five hundred years ago.This is a direct path to attain the Lord.Let us chant and be peaceful and happy

Hare KrishnaPrasad.Iragavarapu, M.D--Shree Hari Ram Ram The response is more focused on Sadhaks then the Paths.... From Swamiji's teachings - A sadhak (seeker, aspirant) must get past dogmas and not have insistence on his own regarding any doctrines, opinions, philosophical ideas, religious sect or religious community that he belongs to. Rather he must act in accordance to their teachings. Insistent on opinions and philosophical ideas of his own religious sect, creates animosity with other sects. Thus he is unable to be open minded and free of biases and will be deprived of good learnings from all. Generally the limitations are our own understanding, not in them. Therefore if any of their actions are not understood by us, and appear flawed to us, then personally we must not pursue and act on those things. Simply speaking .... Paramatma is only One - though Names and Forms / Formless aspects may be different. There is no gain in any of this. Do not favor one view over another and have no differences. All this is a waste of time. Simply get engaged in God and God alone, as this birth is only for that purpose. Oh Lord, Oh Lord ! Pray that you do not get entangled in dogmas, doctrines, sects, philosophical ideas, Organizations, Groups etc. There is simply no gain in any of this - says Swamiji. Meera DasRam Ram

------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Gita Sadhak Bandhus,

In our humble opinion, it is not the common elements that are important but those that are particular. There are many things that are common in humans and animals. Can they, therefore, become the same, or be treated like the same on that account?

It was argued: "There is one God that is Christ", and Hindu says, "Survum Vasudeva Mayam". This is not commonalty and cannot prove similarity of the two.

The neighbour's wife, one's wife and daughter have many elements that are common. They are all females, have head, neck, feet, limbs and feminine organs which are common, besides many others. But, on that basis, can one be replaced by the other? Can the daughter or the neighbour's wife also become one's wife, act as such, or be treated as such?

Similarly, in our humble opinion (the manner in which understood) Brahm and Christian God are not the same. The latter resides in the seventh heavens, while Brahm is every where and in everything. How can the two be the same, therefore?

In Gita Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Eeshvarah sarva bhootaanaam hrid-deshe Arjuna tishtthati (18:61); meaning thereby, that Eeshvar dwells in the heart of all beings. Now, who else says that? Do Judaism, Islam and Christianity also say the same?

Then it was also said: … in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/ dogmatic/ progressive ways to liberation. But, how can there be ways to liberation the concept of it in various religions; when there is not even a talk of liberation or Moksha in them.

Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Yaanti deva-vrataa devaan, pitreen-yaanti pitri-vrataah/ bhootaani yaanti bhoot-ejyaa, yaanti mad-yaajino'pi maam// (9:25); meaning: MY votaries, My worshippers, reach Me, and those of the Devas, Pitris, and Bhutas reach them; not Me. Then it is unclear, how will worshippers of other reach Krishna then?

We have placed some of the doubts that have crossed into our mind when we read the above post and on account of which we think Sadhna on the basis of commonalty shall not lead to the destination we have chosen for ourselves as Gita Sadhaks. And, therefore, we should stick to the paths shown by the Scriptures and our great ancestors rather than devising or searching for new ones. Bhagawan Manu, the progenitor of human race, has taught us:

Yenaasya pitaro yaataa, yena yaataah pitaa-mahaah/

Tena yaayaat-sataam maargam, tena gachhan-na rishyate// 4:178

which means, follow in the footsteps of your fathers and grand-fathers, the path taken by your ancestors, the sat-purushaas. So doing, one will not meet any harm.

With apologies,

Dr. Ranjeet Singh

--------------------------

This is my opinion .......

The Great Thinkers of the Past (GTPs) had a powerful sixth sence and intuition.They observed, felt, experienced in the Nature around, within lifeforms, withinmankind and within themselves something physical, they analysed it with theiracute intelligence and described it to the best of their abilities, knowledgeand language in the form of religious scriptures.

Now we we are more evolved in knowledge, information, means of observations, andresources of experience. We can as well feel the same physical sense andinterpret it with the help of scientific knowledge and information. We now havethe backing of experimental results and information. I feel, the Great Thinkersof the Present (GTPs again) should review the past scriptures, instead ofbelieving in them blindly, and correct them whereever needed.

I am aware of the fact that my views and assumptions will not be easily accepted...but I hope, to some individuals, it may be appealing.

....Gee Waman

-----

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Paramatma is Eternal, and Paramatma's message (Eternal Laws and Principles - Dharma) is also eternal and unchanging not perishable and limited by time, space, causation.

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

Christianity said the following: 1) That world is square in old testoment. Hindu says yes, as it has Chathur Yug 4 Yugas in a square depicted in Vishnu Puran. Quran of Muslims say the world in Char (Four) slots that is 4 Yugas. 2) Christians says NO rebirth or incarnation. Here incarnation is differant from birth. It is saying about Athuman (Holy Sprit) that has no birth. Sri Krishna says Athuman has NO death or births. 3) Christians say,(a) "Love thy Neighbour as thyself. (b) Do not cast your eyes on your neighbour` s wife. © Show the other cheek when slapped. (d)There is only One God that is Christ"". For (a) Survam Vasudeva Mayam (b) Kama-Lust when seeing somebody wife Ref Vishnu Puran © forgiveness (Sowlabiyam) lived Example Sri Ekanath Maharaj of recent (d) only one Paramathuma. Christians can note Whom is Christ often calls "Oh my father In Heavens" Hindus say God is formless and can attain any form. Muslims pray formless. Some Christians this as well as that.This is what Sri Krishna In Geetha has said to people "Moodha" (Ignorant).--- Not going in deep in scripts is cause. Jai Sri Krishna-----------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Brother Mike, right you are, some paths are more direct.Direct paths, as I understand them, bypass dogmas, as useful as they may be for some in initial stages. It is like bypasses/loops built around the city for those traveling beyond the city. In-city and out of city traffic get helped in this ways.The approach of Vedanta is direct Realization of who/what we are. Therefore, upon such Realization, all our actions come from this Truth of us, and not from not-knowing ourselves. Truth liberates, and ignorance, as much as we say is bliss, nevertheless, binds us. As you say in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/dogmatic/progressive ways to liberation. How do we get past dogmas? Again, as you say, seeing the commonality in them helps to a great extent to broaden our visions, so we can drop/bypass non-essentials at the time. In my experience, I see more and more common elements in all of them now than before, and if for some reasons, I see conflicting views, I resolve in one of two ways: Either I don't know/interpret in the context/spirit it should be, or it is not relevant at this time for me.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

-----------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit the use to Sanskrit words and provide English wordbracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

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[Guest guest]

-Shree Hari-Dear Brethren,What I have found is that the biggest stumbling block is dogma, itcan act as a block to progress. But if one steps around these blocks,driven by ones own insight, then yes one will arrive at the commonground, metaphorically the Christian will stand hand in hand withJain, Hindu, and Muslim etc, having also completed their windingpath.Simple example, reincarnation, from a scriptural and intuitive pointof view it must be. And yet of course the Church denies it.(In all probability some paths are more direct).With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor--------------------------NEW POSTINGUnderstanding the wisdom/rules of life is the key Happiness is the key value and everything else gets derived from this value.....It is very scientific....

It

is not about christian, muslim, hindu........or any other label

etc.....It is about truth, it is about our rules applicable to us, It

is about the research world over on the wisdom of life....for

centuries....In India too this happened vigorously and results were

amazing..... Religions/labels are based the truth of life and not the

vice-a-versa.....Need today is to integrate these learnings and

systematically make them available to the people especially to children

without a label....like any other subject we teach....like maths,

physics, chemistry, medicine....do we worry about the muslim, hindu,

christian labels....We all need to get out of these labels and go to

the basics...if you really want to see yourself happy and if you really

want to see the world happy....

Sushil Jain-------My understanding is that the Abrahamic religions is more COMMAND/ORDER based, that is why they are more orderly.

They all stress one path- faith/obedience. Disobedience is the sin.

Thus, they don't dwell on re-birth. That concept is irrelevant to them, because they want you to get it right in this life or be lost for ever.

As opposed to it, we have countless opportunities to work at our own pace. Thus, re-birth

becomes significant. In our system, it can happen in split of a second or in eons, it is up to

us. All paths are fine, all paths are true (sort of an oxymoron, that

is why at the end, in most arguments with Christians and Muslims, most

Hindus look like fools!), etc. This is quite different from One life,

one chance- if you do not follow the order, you eternally burn in hell.

Just like a police or even a loving mother. Both have to be strict to

ensure their message is followed.

Jainism & Buddhism also relatively more orderly than Hinduism (sanatana Dharma).

Because they also stress on one path-knowledge/reasoning. However, they also believe in re-birth and innumerable opportunities.

As we know, it is the Abrahamic religions that call the shots in this world.

They are prepared, proactive (within the limits, like Judaism does not seek converts);

Hinduism may be pre-pro active (as it has thought of all possibilities for all times), but what I have seen is that Hindus are only reactive. Even the number of Hindus in the world is probably not more than one or at the most two! Because, that is purely for census and for Missionaries

and Mullahs to round us up. As many Hindus are that many Hinduism is!Koti Sreekrishna

=================================PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadaks,There is line in Bible, ""Empty they self I shall fill it"". This same thing Bagavan in Geetha has said. Contemplate.Once Sadaks who took to sanyasin sitting inside there hut were arguing about a boulder outside the hut, as the stone boulder was Granite or Not. A saint passing by hearing this argument said to them, "" You sadaks please tell me whether the stone inside or outside"". What was the saint saying?Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan. ---------Namaste! Dear Sadhakas!My humble and respectful response to our Brother Dr Ranjeet Singh is as follows:If we can see commonality among various religious practices, we can be moreunderstanding and respectful of other traditions and hence can live peacefullywhile pursuing our own path. Our paths are generally determined by prevailingreligious practices of the place and time into which we are born. So when we seecommonality, it doesn't mean we give up what appeals to us easily. It is theappreciation of other paths that is stressed here in our comments.Life is One, Truth is One, various are Its expressions all lovely and beautiful!However, if we concentrate on differences, we are likely to be defensive andfight for wrong reasons!What is common among human relationship is Love which when recognized as themost important element, lets us play appropriate roles as men and women. Love isIntelligence that knows the differences in relationships. Then gender,nationality, race, don't seem to matter! If Love is lacking then only thesebecome issues.In my understanding there are common elements between non-dual teaching ofVedanta, Zen-Buddhism, Sufi aspects in Islam, Hasidic teachings(I think it is)of Judaism, Taoism, Contemplative Christianity. It is just heartening to knowsuch is the case.� Why emphasize differences?Jesus never claimed to be God, he is the son of God. He had Realized Self. He isChrist-Consciousness. Bypassing the dogmas, we can feel/experience God, theSpirit according to Bible, is like Supreme Consciousness, Brahman! God is justrepresentation of Oneness, not located at a place. We should not go by whatwords are used because it depends on the context and the audiences.The beautiful aspects of Christianity are service to all with devotion, charity,and sacrifice for fellow human beings. Such qualities are to be admired, ratherthan saying they don't have concept of liberation.When Krishna addresses Him as "Me" in Gita, it means Supreme Consciousness onlyspeaking through Historical figure Krishna in Human form. This means all canworship Him in whatever forms they worship with this Understanding in their ownways.Finally we are not reinventing new paths, we are stressing the importance ofseeing the underlying commonality across all religious practices once the dogmasare seen for what they are and bypassed! It is inspiring to know mankindeverywhere else have also thought about the same Truth and expressed in theirown language and circumstances! We are just lucky to have Vedas where we are asmuch as they are to have theirs!Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt-----------Shree Hari-Dear Dr. Ranjeet Singh, It was argued: "There is one God that is Christ", sorry absolute nonsense, and by they way I will show by your arguments my point is valid. Christ kept referring to His Father, and said he could do nothing without His Father, he surrendered to His Fathers will, even when he thought he had been abandoned. Jesus said also, Father forgive them for they ...", he did not say "I forgive you". The nature of Jesus was not taken by Christianity from the bible, but spun by Greeko/Roman neo Pagans.See ex Wikipedia 'Between 325 and 681, Christians theologically articulated and refined their view of the nature of Jesus by a series of SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS' THUS THE DOGMA. I will add that all Christian festivals are thinly disguised Pagan festivals. Reference to Moksha, Jesus said"The Kingdom of GOD is not coming with signs to be observed ....fore the kingdom is in the mids of you. Also, "The kingdom has come but you see it not". Also I have quoted before the death of Ego, surrendering ones life,.. Read Julian of Norwich insights of of the 'Divine Indwelling'(SELF), I posted just recently. You are confusing, the Mystic with the Fundamentalist, that was the point in my comment. By the way why do I read Sadhaks refer to Lord Krishna as Bhagavan. "As Men come to me...." I could debate and argue this further, but......?With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor).---------------------------Pranaams. According to the Dictionary; Dogma is:1. a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.2. a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.3. prescribed doctrine: political dogma.4. a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle. In belief system--Sanatana Dharma, we have the freedom/right to interact with Bhagwaan however He inspires us to. Meaning that how we feel about Bhagwaan has a relation to how He(She) wants us to. Ours is not manmade religion with --specific rules. such as--you have to pray so many times a day,fast on certain days or else you must give a percentage of your earnings etc. Concepts of Bhakti and Prema are beautifully explored in messages of Bhagwaan. Fear is not a concept created by Bhagwaan rather it is Love of God.The problem is that some Sampradayas too have made up rules and this is what causes problems in Sanatana Dharma. Eg, some say that The Lord will not accept food that has onions and garlic. etc. Rules and more rules which sometime scare people away. We have seen from the Kathas of many Bhaktas that there is no boundary between The Lord and His Devotee--He accepted basi fruit as Sri Rama. People use isolated verses from Scriptures to create Dogma in Sanatana Dharma and we must be wary of this. Dogma scares people away from The Divine while Sanatana Dharma is the eternal natural path to Union with The Divine. We get pass Dogma we reach The Divine faster. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ---------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari-Dear Dr. Ranjeet Singh,I am not sure if you are comparing people of other faiths along with animals, 'no chance of Moksha, not in this life any way'.Mysticism (as difined in the Wikipedia).Nullification and absorption within God's Infinite Light (Chassidic schools of Judaism)Complete detachment from the world (Kaivalya in some schools of Hinduism, including Sankhya and Yoga; Jhana in Buddhism)Liberation from the cycles of Karma (Moksha in Jainism and Hinduism, Nirvana In Buddhism)Deep intrinsic connection to the world (Satori in Mahayana Buddhism, Te in Taoism)Union with God (Henosis in Neoplatonism and Theosis in Christianity, Brahma-Prapti or Brahma-Nirvana in Hinduism)Innate Knowledge (Irfan and fitra in Islam) Experience of one's true blissful nature (Samadhi or Svarupa-Avirbhava in Hinduism)According to Jesus, the Kingdom of God is within (or among) people,[3] is approached through understanding,[4] and entered through acceptance like a child,[5] spiritual rebirth,[6] and doing the will of God. (Ex Wikipedia)The Seventh Heaven is something I know nothing of, But it is in the Kabbalah; apparently, never heard of it in Christianity.Jesus answered , "I have not a demon; but I honor my Father...."The Jews said, " You are not yet fifty years old, and you say you have seen Abraham? Jesus said to them truly truly I say to you before Abraham, I am...."."Who sinned that that man be born blind, he or his parents?"Elijah has come.... and they understood he spoke of John th Baptist,(Reincarnated after 300 years)Reincarnation was taught by the western Church until 553 AD.Can one see that the Mystic cannot be tied up with dogma.Now can one grasp how the intellect, can mull over the paradoxes twixt dogma and the written, to the point where one has to go so deep with the desire for the Truth, reaching for the Divine, to the point where you fear for your life by what you find, but cannot let go?Can one understand what I am writing about, do you think that I am a closet Christian ?I love the 'Divine Beloved'.BHAGAVAD GITA Ch:929. The same am I to all beings; to me there is none hateful or dear; but thosewho worship me with devotion are in me and I am also in them.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor---"Lift up the self by the Self And do not let the self droop down. For the Self is the self's only friend And the self is the Self's only foe." - Sri Krishna (from The Bhagavad Gita)"Ben"---------------------My dear mikelove god and thats all u need.whats this fuss all about.ThanxRaja gurdasani---------------------Dear Sadhakas,Hare KrishnaIn Bhagavad-Gita Lord Krishna explains as to who is a perfect devotee" Mayy avesya mano ye mam, nitya ukta upasate sraddhaya parayopetas, te me yuktatama matah " ( Gita 12, 2 )which means"Those who fix their minds in me and are always engaged in worshipping Me withthe great transcendental faith are considered by me to be the most perfect"Lord Krishna also described who is very dear to Him."advesta sarva bhutanam , maitra karuna eva ca, nirmamo nirahankarah,sama-dukha-sukhah kshami, santustah satatam yogi, yatatma dhruda niscayahmayyarpita -mano-buddhir,yo mad-bhaktah sa me priyah" (Gita 12,,13 and 14)which means" One who has no hatred towards any one,a friend to all, who has no ego,who is equal both in happiness and sorrow, who is always satisfied, self contolled, tolerant and who is engaged in devotional service with his mind and intelligence , fixed in me- such a devotee is very dear to Me."Importance of devotional service is clearly stressed here. Pure devotional service with compassion towards every one is Bhakti Yoga." Yajnanam japa- yajnosmi " (Gita 10, 25) which means " Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names" (Japa)...chanting of the holy names " Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare, Hare Krishna Hare Krishna ,Krishna Krishna Hare Hare" is simple and pureIn this Kali Yuga, this chanting is highly recommended and it is very practical.Chaitanya Mahaprabhu conducted this sankirtana (japa) yajna five hundred years ago.This is a direct path to attain the Lord.Let us chant and be peaceful and happyHare KrishnaPrasad.Iragavarapu, M.D--Shree HariRam Ram The response is more focused on Sadhaks then the Paths.... From Swamiji's teachings -A sadhak (seeker, aspirant) must get past dogmas and not have insistence on his own regarding any doctrines, opinions, philosophical ideas, religious sect or religious community that he belongs to. Rather he must act in accordance to their teachings. Insistent on opinions and philosophical ideas of his own religious sect, creates animosity with other sects. Thus he is unable to be open minded and free of biases and will be deprived of good learnings from all. Generally the limitations are our own understanding, not in them. Therefore if any of their actions are not understood by us, and appear flawed to us, then personally we must not pursue and act on those things. Simply speaking .... Paramatma is only One - though Names and Forms / Formless aspects may be different. There is no gain in any of this. Do not favor one view over another and have no differences. All this is a waste of time. Simply get engaged in God and God alone, as this birth is only for that purpose. Oh Lord, Oh Lord ! Pray that you do not get entangled in dogmas, doctrines, sects, philosophical ideas, Organizations, Groups etc. There is simply no gain in any of this - says Swamiji. Meera DasRam Ram ------ PRIOR POSTINGDear Gita Sadhak Bandhus,In our humble opinion, it is not the common elements that are important but those that are particular. There are many things that are common in humans and animals. Can they, therefore, become the same, or be treated like the same on that account?It was argued: "There is one God that is Christ", and Hindu says, "Survum Vasudeva Mayam". This is not commonalty and cannot prove similarity of the two.The neighbour's wife, one's wife and daughter have many elements that are common. They are all females, have head, neck, feet, limbs and feminine organs which are common, besides many others. But, on that basis, can one be replaced by the other? Can the daughter or the neighbour's wife also become one's wife, act as such, or be treated as such?Similarly, in our humble opinion (the manner in which understood) Brahm and Christian God are not the same. The latter resides in the seventh heavens, while Brahm is every where and in everything. How can the two be the same, therefore?In Gita Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Eeshvarah sarva bhootaanaam hrid-deshe Arjuna tishtthati (18:61); meaning thereby, that Eeshvar dwells in the heart of all beings. Now, who else says that? Do Judaism, Islam and Christianity also say the same?Then it was also said: � in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/ dogmatic/ progressive ways to liberation. But, how can there be ways to liberation the concept of it in various religions; when there is not even a talk of liberation or Moksha in them.Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Yaanti deva-vrataa devaan, pitreen-yaanti pitri-vrataah/ bhootaani yaanti bhoot-ejyaa, yaanti mad-yaajino'pi maam// (9:25); meaning: MY votaries, My worshippers, reach Me, and those of the Devas, Pitris, and Bhutas reach them; not Me. Then it is unclear, how will worshippers of other reach Krishna then?We have placed some of the doubts that have crossed into our mind when we read the above post and on account of which we think Sadhna on the basis of commonalty shall not lead to the destination we have chosen for ourselves as Gita Sadhaks. And, therefore, we should stick to the paths shown by the Scriptures and our great ancestors rather than devising or searching for new ones. Bhagawan Manu, the progenitor of human race, has taught us:Yenaasya pitaro yaataa, yena yaataah pitaa-mahaah/Tena yaayaat-sataam maargam, tena gachhan-na rishyate// 4:178which means, follow in the footsteps of your fathers and grand-fathers, the path taken by your ancestors, the sat-purushaas. So doing, one will not meet any harm.With apologies,Dr. Ranjeet Singh--------------------------This is my opinion .......The Great Thinkers of the Past (GTPs) had a powerful sixth sence and intuition.They observed, felt, experienced in the Nature around, within lifeforms, withinmankind and within themselves something physical, they analysed it with theiracute intelligence and described it to the best of their abilities, knowledgeand language in the form of religious scriptures.Now we we are more evolved in knowledge, information, means of observations, andresources of experience. We can as well feel the same physical sense andinterpret it with the help of scientific knowledge and information. We now havethe backing of experimental results and information. I feel, the Great Thinkersof the Present (GTPs again) should review the past scriptures, instead ofbelieving in them blindly, and correct them whereever needed.I am aware of the fact that my views and assumptions will not be easily accepted...but I hope, to some individuals, it may be appealing....Gee Waman-----Shree Hari Ram Ram Paramatma is Eternal, and Paramatma's message (Eternal Laws and Principles - Dharma) is also eternal and unchanging not perishable and limited by time, space, causation.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram ----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadaks,Christianity said the following: 1) That world is square in old testoment. Hindu says yes, as it has Chathur Yug 4 Yugas in a square depicted in Vishnu Puran. Quran of Muslims say the world in Char (Four) slots that is 4 Yugas. 2) Christians says NO rebirth or incarnation. Here incarnation is differant from birth. It is saying about Athuman (Holy Sprit) that has no birth. Sri Krishna says Athuman has NO death or births. 3) Christians say,(a) "Love thy Neighbour as thyself. (b) Do not cast your eyes on your neighbour` s wife. © Show the other cheek when slapped. (d)There is only One God that is Christ"". For (a) Survam Vasudeva Mayam (b) Kama-Lust when seeing somebody wife Ref Vishnu Puran © forgiveness (Sowlabiyam) lived Example Sri Ekanath Maharaj of recent (d) only one Paramathuma. Christians can note Whom is Christ often calls "Oh my father In Heavens" Hindus say God is formless and can attain any form. Muslims pray formless. Some Christians this as well as that.This is what Sri Krishna In Geetha has said to people "Moodha" (Ignorant).--- Not going in deep in scripts is cause. Jai Sri Krishna-----------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Brother Mike, right you are, some paths are more direct.Direct paths, as I understand them, bypass dogmas, as useful as they may be for some in initial stages. It is like bypasses/loops built around the city for those traveling beyond the city. In-city and out of city traffic get helped in this ways.The approach of Vedanta is direct Realization of who/what we are. Therefore, upon such Realization, all our actions come from this Truth of us, and not from not-knowing ourselves. Truth liberates, and ignorance, as much as we say is bliss, nevertheless, binds us. As you say in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/dogmatic/progressive ways to liberation.How do we get past dogmas? Again, as you say, seeing the commonality in them helps to a great extent to broaden our visions, so we can drop/bypass non-essentials at the time. In my experience, I see more and more common elements in all of them now than before, and if for some reasons, I see conflicting views, I resolve in one of two ways: Either I don't know/interpret in the context/spirit it should be, or it is not relevant at this time for me.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt-----------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit the use to Sanskrit words and provide English wordbracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - ---------------

[Guest guest]

-Shree Hari-

Dear Brethren,

What I have found is that the biggest stumbling block is dogma, itcan act as a block to progress. But if one steps around these blocks,driven by ones own insight, then yes one will arrive at the commonground, metaphorically the Christian will stand hand in hand withJain, Hindu, and Muslim etc, having also completed their windingpath.Simple example, reincarnation, from a scriptural and intuitive pointof view it must be. And yet of course the Church denies it.(In all probability some paths are more direct).

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

--------------------------

NEW POSTING

Dear Mike,

When Superiority turns to Humility then love arises.

Love and only love is direct path

Thanx

Raja Gurdasani

--------------------------

DEAREST SADHAKS,Wonderful topic and religions per se are known by their fruits. In all faiths they teach we should love our brothers as our self. Is it done?Is it practiced? One is seen by what is shown, are there gossipers amongst them and all is attributed to love or lack thereof? The underlining theme is love.If you have love amongst yourselves then the law is accomplished.All teachings are fundamentally the same if previewed with depth.I have met very spiritual Christians following God through Gods Son who did the work of his Father preaching and always pointing towards the way the truth and the life, i have seen wonderful Muslims happy in their faith both men and women happy in praising Allah, and Hindus are such peaceful loving that give such precious gems of what is necessary for life so if followed peace will ensue. Khogi Catherine

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Dear Catherine, We were curious as to what Khogi stands for? Is it Kho gayi? Lost in Love! Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

---

Time and again questions pops in my head: Why do I want to know (realize ) God? Is he Fair Or Merciful? How can he be both? The answer that I can not question is: I want to know because I love Him. Him and this UNIVERSE as Him. He is Fair (Actions have Reactions; Choices have consequences) And he is Merciful, so when I know Him Fully that is Accept Him as Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnopotent, I know my material sorrounding is from my Karma but the inner peace granted to me is his Grace.

For me that is where any religion should lead. And most of my Friends, nomatter what religion they practice accept that.

Hemendra Parikh

------------------------

Dear Sadhak-insight

 

My feeling is that one should not concern themselves whether others / church believes or not in something. The reincarnation principle is a universal truth and hence we should believe and act accordingly, Truly yours

 

S S Bhatt

--------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Understanding the wisdom/rules of life is the key

Happiness is the key value and everything else gets derived from this value.....It is very scientific....

It is not about christian, muslim, hindu........or any other label etc.....It is about truth, it is about our rules applicable to us, It is about the research world over on the wisdom of life....for centuries....In India too this happened vigorously and results were amazing..... Religions/labels are based the truth of life and not the vice-a-versa.....

Need today is to integrate these learnings and systematically make them available to the people especially to children without a label....like any other subject we teach....like maths, physics, chemistry, medicine....do we worry about the muslim, hindu, christian labels....We all need to get out of these labels and go to the basics...if you really want to see yourself happy and if you really want to see the world happy....Sushil Jain

-------

My understanding is that the Abrahamic religions is more COMMAND/ORDER based, that is why they are more orderly.They all stress one path- faith/obedience. Disobedience is the sin.Thus, they don't dwell on re-birth. That concept is irrelevant to them, because they want you to get it right in this life or be lost for ever.

As opposed to it, we have countless opportunities to work at our own pace. Thus, re-birth becomes significant. In our system, it can happen in split of a second or in eons, it is up to us. All paths are fine, all paths are true (sort of an oxymoron, that is why at the end, in most arguments with Christians and Muslims, most Hindus look like fools!), etc. This is quite different from One life, one chance- if you do not follow the order, you eternally burn in hell. Just like a police or even a loving mother. Both have to be strict to ensure their message is followed.Jainism & Buddhism also relatively more orderly than Hinduism (sanatana Dharma).Because they also stress on one path-knowledge/reasoning. However, they also believe in re-birth and innumerable opportunities.As we know, it is the Abrahamic religions that call the shots in this world.They are prepared, proactive (within the limits, like Judaism does not seek converts);Hinduism may be pre-pro active (as it has thought of all possibilities for all times), but what I have seen is that Hindus are only reactive. Even the number of Hindus in the world is probably not more than one or at the most two! Because, that is purely for census and for Missionariesand Mullahs to round us up. As many Hindus are that many Hinduism is!

Koti Sreekrishna

=================================

PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadaks,There is line in Bible, ""Empty they self I shall fill it"". This same thing Bagavan in Geetha has said. Contemplate.Once Sadaks who took to sanyasin sitting inside there hut were arguing about a boulder outside the hut, as the stone boulder was Granite or Not. A saint passing by hearing this argument said to them, "" You sadaks please tell me whether the stone inside or outside"". What was the saint saying?Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan. ---------

Namaste! Dear Sadhakas!My humble and respectful response to our Brother Dr Ranjeet Singh is as follows:If we can see commonality among various religious practices, we can be moreunderstanding and respectful of other traditions and hence can live peacefullywhile pursuing our own path. Our paths are generally determined by prevailingreligious practices of the place and time into which we are born. So when we seecommonality, it doesn't mean we give up what appeals to us easily. It is theappreciation of other paths that is stressed here in our comments.Life is One, Truth is One, various are Its expressions all lovely and beautiful!However, if we concentrate on differences, we are likely to be defensive andfight for wrong reasons!

What is common among human relationship is Love which when recognized as themost important element, lets us play appropriate roles as men and women. Love isIntelligence that knows the differences in relationships. Then gender,nationality, race, don't seem to matter! If Love is lacking then only thesebecome issues.

In my understanding there are common elements between non-dual teaching ofVedanta, Zen-Buddhism, Sufi aspects in Islam, Hasidic teachings(I think it is)of Judaism, Taoism, Contemplative Christianity. It is just heartening to knowsuch is the case.� Why emphasize differences?

Jesus never claimed to be God, he is the son of God. He had Realized Self. He isChrist-Consciousness. Bypassing the dogmas, we can feel/experience God, theSpirit according to Bible, is like Supreme Consciousness, Brahman! God is justrepresentation of Oneness, not located at a place. We should not go by whatwords are used because it depends on the context and the audiences.The beautiful aspects of Christianity are service to all with devotion, charity,and sacrifice for fellow human beings. Such qualities are to be admired, ratherthan saying they don't have concept of liberation.

When Krishna addresses Him as "Me" in Gita, it means Supreme Consciousness onlyspeaking through Historical figure Krishna in Human form. This means all canworship Him in whatever forms they worship with this Understanding in their ownways.

Finally we are not reinventing new paths, we are stressing the importance ofseeing the underlying commonality across all religious practices once the dogmasare seen for what they are and bypassed! It is inspiring to know mankindeverywhere else have also thought about the same Truth and expressed in theirown language and circumstances! We are just lucky to have Vedas where we are asmuch as they are to have theirs!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

----------

-Shree Hari-

Dear Dr. Ranjeet Singh, It was argued: "There is one God that is Christ", sorry absolute nonsense, and by they way I will show by your arguments my point is valid. Christ kept referring to His Father, and said he could do nothing without His Father, he surrendered to His Fathers will, even when he thought he had been abandoned. Jesus said also, Father forgive them for they ...", he did not say "I forgive you". The nature of Jesus was not taken by Christianity from the bible, but spun by Greeko/Roman neo Pagans.See ex Wikipedia 'Between 325 and 681, Christians theologically articulated and refined their view of the nature of Jesus by a series of SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS' THUS THE DOGMA. I will add that all Christian festivals are thinly disguised Pagan festivals. Reference to Moksha, Jesus said"The Kingdom of GOD is not coming with signs to be observed ....fore the kingdom is in the mids of you. Also, "The kingdom has come but you see it not". Also I have quoted before the death of Ego, surrendering ones life,.. Read Julian of Norwich insights of of the 'Divine Indwelling'(SELF), I posted just recently. You are confusing, the Mystic with the Fundamentalist, that was the point in my comment. By the way why do I read Sadhaks refer to Lord Krishna as Bhagavan. "As Men come to me...." I could debate and argue this further, but......?

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike (Keenor).

---------------------------Pranaams. According to the Dictionary; Dogma is:1. a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.2. a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.3. prescribed doctrine: political dogma.4. a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle. In belief system--Sanatana Dharma, we have the freedom/right to interact with Bhagwaan however He inspires us to. Meaning that how we feel about Bhagwaan has a relation to how He(She) wants us to. Ours is not manmade religion with --specific rules. such as--you have to pray so many times a day,fast on certain days or else you must give a percentage of your earnings etc. Concepts of Bhakti and Prema are beautifully explored in messages of Bhagwaan. Fear is not a concept created by Bhagwaan rather it is Love of God.The problem is that some Sampradayas too have made up rules and this is what causes problems in Sanatana Dharma. Eg, some say that The Lord will not accept food that has onions and garlic. etc. Rules and more rules which sometime scare people away. We have seen from the Kathas of many Bhaktas that there is no boundary between The Lord and His Devotee--He accepted basi fruit as Sri Rama. People use isolated verses from Scriptures to create Dogma in Sanatana Dharma and we must be wary of this. Dogma scares people away from The Divine while Sanatana Dharma is the eternal natural path to Union with The Divine. We get pass Dogma we reach The Divine faster. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)

 

---------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

Dear Dr. Ranjeet Singh,

I am not sure if you are comparing people of other faiths along with animals, 'no chance of Moksha, not in this life any way'.

Mysticism (as difined in the Wikipedia).

Nullification and absorption within God's Infinite Light (Chassidic schools of Judaism)Complete detachment from the world (Kaivalya in some schools of Hinduism, including Sankhya and Yoga; Jhana in Buddhism)Liberation from the cycles of Karma (Moksha in Jainism and Hinduism, Nirvana In Buddhism)Deep intrinsic connection to the world (Satori in Mahayana Buddhism, Te in Taoism)Union with God (Henosis in Neoplatonism and Theosis in Christianity, Brahma-Prapti or Brahma-Nirvana in Hinduism)Innate Knowledge (Irfan and fitra in Islam) Experience of one's true blissful nature (Samadhi or Svarupa-Avirbhava in Hinduism)According to Jesus, the Kingdom of God is within (or among) people,[3] is approached through understanding,[4] and entered through acceptance like a child,[5] spiritual rebirth,[6] and doing the will of God. (Ex Wikipedia)The Seventh Heaven is something I know nothing of, But it is in the Kabbalah; apparently, never heard of it in Christianity.

Jesus answered , "I have not a demon; but I honor my Father...."The Jews said, " You are not yet fifty years old, and you say you have seen Abraham? Jesus said to them truly truly I say to you before Abraham, I am...."."Who sinned that that man be born blind, he or his parents?"Elijah has come.... and they understood he spoke of John th Baptist,(Reincarnated after 300 years)Reincarnation was taught by the western Church until 553 AD.Can one see that the Mystic cannot be tied up with dogma.Now can one grasp how the intellect, can mull over the paradoxes twixt dogma and the written, to the point where one has to go so deep with the desire for the Truth, reaching for the Divine, to the point where you fear for your life by what you find, but cannot let go?Can one understand what I am writing about, do you think that I am a closet Christian ?I love the 'Divine Beloved'.BHAGAVAD GITA Ch:929. The same am I to all beings; to me there is none hateful or dear; but thosewho worship me with devotion are in me and I am also in them.

With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor

---

"Lift up the self by the Self And do not let the self droop down. For the Self is the self's only friend And the self is the Self's only foe." - Sri Krishna (from The Bhagavad Gita)"Ben"

---------------------

My dear mikelove god and thats all u need.whats this fuss all about.ThanxRaja gurdasani---------------------Dear Sadhakas,Hare Krishna

In Bhagavad-Gita Lord Krishna explains as to who is a perfect devotee

" Mayy avesya mano ye mam, nitya ukta upasate sraddhaya parayopetas, te me yuktatama matah " ( Gita 12, 2 )

which means

"Those who fix their minds in me and are always engaged in worshipping Me withthe great transcendental faith are considered by me to be the most perfect"

Lord Krishna also described who is very dear to Him.

"advesta sarva bhutanam , maitra karuna eva ca, nirmamo nirahankarah,sama-dukha-sukhah kshami, santustah satatam yogi, yatatma dhruda niscayahmayyarpita -mano-buddhir,yo mad-bhaktah sa me priyah" (Gita 12,,13 and 14)

which means

" One who has no hatred towards any one,a friend to all, who has no ego,who is equal both in happiness and sorrow, who is always satisfied, self contolled, tolerant and who is engaged in devotional service with his mind and intelligence , fixed in me- such a devotee is very dear to Me."

Importance of devotional service is clearly stressed here. Pure devotional service with compassion towards every one is Bhakti Yoga.

" Yajnanam japa- yajnosmi " (Gita 10, 25) which means " Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names" (Japa)...chanting of the holy names " Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare, Hare Krishna Hare Krishna ,Krishna Krishna Hare Hare" is simple and pure

In this Kali Yuga, this chanting is highly recommended and it is very practical.

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu conducted this sankirtana (japa) yajna five hundred years ago.This is a direct path to attain the Lord.Let us chant and be peaceful and happy

Hare KrishnaPrasad.Iragavarapu, M.D--Shree HariRam Ram The response is more focused on Sadhaks then the Paths.... From Swamiji's teachings -A sadhak (seeker, aspirant) must get past dogmas and not have insistence on his own regarding any doctrines, opinions, philosophical ideas, religious sect or religious community that he belongs to. Rather he must act in accordance to their teachings. Insistent on opinions and philosophical ideas of his own religious sect, creates animosity with other sects. Thus he is unable to be open minded and free of biases and will be deprived of good learnings from all. Generally the limitations are our own understanding, not in them. Therefore if any of their actions are not understood by us, and appear flawed to us, then personally we must not pursue and act on those things. Simply speaking .... Paramatma is only One - though Names and Forms / Formless aspects may be different. There is no gain in any of this. Do not favor one view over another and have no differences. All this is a waste of time. Simply get engaged in God and God alone, as this birth is only for that purpose. Oh Lord, Oh Lord ! Pray that you do not get entangled in dogmas, doctrines, sects, philosophical ideas, Organizations, Groups etc. There is simply no gain in any of this - says Swamiji. Meera DasRam Ram

------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Gita Sadhak Bandhus,

In our humble opinion, it is not the common elements that are important but those that are particular. There are many things that are common in humans and animals. Can they, therefore, become the same, or be treated like the same on that account?

It was argued: "There is one God that is Christ", and Hindu says, "Survum Vasudeva Mayam". This is not commonalty and cannot prove similarity of the two.

The neighbour's wife, one's wife and daughter have many elements that are common. They are all females, have head, neck, feet, limbs and feminine organs which are common, besides many others. But, on that basis, can one be replaced by the other? Can the daughter or the neighbour's wife also become one's wife, act as such, or be treated as such?

Similarly, in our humble opinion (the manner in which understood) Brahm and Christian God are not the same. The latter resides in the seventh heavens, while Brahm is every where and in everything. How can the two be the same, therefore?

In Gita Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Eeshvarah sarva bhootaanaam hrid-deshe Arjuna tishtthati (18:61); meaning thereby, that Eeshvar dwells in the heart of all beings. Now, who else says that? Do Judaism, Islam and Christianity also say the same?

Then it was also said: � in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/ dogmatic/ progressive ways to liberation. But, how can there be ways to liberation the concept of it in various religions; when there is not even a talk of liberation or Moksha in them.

Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Yaanti deva-vrataa devaan, pitreen-yaanti pitri-vrataah/ bhootaani yaanti bhoot-ejyaa, yaanti mad-yaajino'pi maam// (9:25); meaning: MY votaries, My worshippers, reach Me, and those of the Devas, Pitris, and Bhutas reach them; not Me. Then it is unclear, how will worshippers of other reach Krishna then?

We have placed some of the doubts that have crossed into our mind when we read the above post and on account of which we think Sadhna on the basis of commonalty shall not lead to the destination we have chosen for ourselves as Gita Sadhaks. And, therefore, we should stick to the paths shown by the Scriptures and our great ancestors rather than devising or searching for new ones. Bhagawan Manu, the progenitor of human race, has taught us:

Yenaasya pitaro yaataa, yena yaataah pitaa-mahaah/

Tena yaayaat-sataam maargam, tena gachhan-na rishyate// 4:178

which means, follow in the footsteps of your fathers and grand-fathers, the path taken by your ancestors, the sat-purushaas. So doing, one will not meet any harm.

With apologies,

Dr. Ranjeet Singh

--------------------------

This is my opinion .......

The Great Thinkers of the Past (GTPs) had a powerful sixth sence and intuition.They observed, felt, experienced in the Nature around, within lifeforms, withinmankind and within themselves something physical, they analysed it with theiracute intelligence and described it to the best of their abilities, knowledgeand language in the form of religious scriptures.

Now we we are more evolved in knowledge, information, means of observations, andresources of experience. We can as well feel the same physical sense andinterpret it with the help of scientific knowledge and information. We now havethe backing of experimental results and information. I feel, the Great Thinkersof the Present (GTPs again) should review the past scriptures, instead ofbelieving in them blindly, and correct them whereever needed.

I am aware of the fact that my views and assumptions will not be easily accepted...but I hope, to some individuals, it may be appealing.

....Gee Waman

-----

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Paramatma is Eternal, and Paramatma's message (Eternal Laws and Principles - Dharma) is also eternal and unchanging not perishable and limited by time, space, causation.

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

Christianity said the following: 1) That world is square in old testoment. Hindu says yes, as it has Chathur Yug 4 Yugas in a square depicted in Vishnu Puran. Quran of Muslims say the world in Char (Four) slots that is 4 Yugas. 2) Christians says NO rebirth or incarnation. Here incarnation is differant from birth. It is saying about Athuman (Holy Sprit) that has no birth. Sri Krishna says Athuman has NO death or births. 3) Christians say,(a) "Love thy Neighbour as thyself. (b) Do not cast your eyes on your neighbour` s wife. © Show the other cheek when slapped. (d)There is only One God that is Christ"". For (a) Survam Vasudeva Mayam (b) Kama-Lust when seeing somebody wife Ref Vishnu Puran © forgiveness (Sowlabiyam) lived Example Sri Ekanath Maharaj of recent (d) only one Paramathuma. Christians can note Whom is Christ often calls "Oh my father In Heavens" Hindus say God is formless and can attain any form. Muslims pray formless. Some Christians this as well as that.This is what Sri Krishna In Geetha has said to people "Moodha" (Ignorant).--- Not going in deep in scripts is cause. Jai Sri Krishna-----------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Brother Mike, right you are, some paths are more direct.Direct paths, as I understand them, bypass dogmas, as useful as they may be for some in initial stages. It is like bypasses/loops built around the city for those traveling beyond the city. In-city and out of city traffic get helped in this ways.The approach of Vedanta is direct Realization of who/what we are. Therefore, upon such Realization, all our actions come from this Truth of us, and not from not-knowing ourselves. Truth liberates, and ignorance, as much as we say is bliss, nevertheless, binds us. As you say in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/dogmatic/progressive ways to liberation.How do we get past dogmas? Again, as you say, seeing the commonality in them helps to a great extent to broaden our visions, so we can drop/bypass non-essentials at the time. In my experience, I see more and more common elements in all of them now than before, and if for some reasons, I see conflicting views, I resolve in one of two ways: Either I don't know/interpret in the context/spirit it should be, or it is not relevant at this time for me.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

-----------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit the use to Sanskrit words and provide English wordbracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

---------------

[Guest guest]

Shree Hari Ram Ram Sadhaks, we have lost some postings over the past couple of days. There seems to be so issues with and using Internet Explorer. SOmetimes it is difficult for us to recreate these, so if you find an important posting missing, please kindly send us reminder, with the posting details. Thank you, From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram ---Re: Are Some Paths More Direct? How to Get Past Dogmas towards Common Ground?-Shree Hari-Dear Brethren,What I have found is that the biggest stumbling block is dogma, itcan act as a block to progress. But if one steps around these blocks,driven by ones own insight, then yes one will arrive at the commonground, metaphorically the Christian will stand hand in hand withJain, Hindu, and Muslim etc, having also completed their windingpath.Simple example, reincarnation, from a scriptural and intuitive pointof view it must be. And yet of course the Church denies it.(In all probability some paths are more direct).With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor--------------------------NEW POSTINGDearest brothers and sisters, Ram Ram to all of these devotees. Being

khogi (seeker) as until attaining equanimity cannot be considered as

devotee as I do not want to stumble others by being calling myself

deserved when I am the least of you my sadhaks.yes it is as Mike Keenor

said that we are all brothers and sisters being a fragment of God so

why should we war or be worldly? This world offers naught to us, but

God offers all we need.Love encompasses all which is Paramaatma. and

but to sit back and watch Gods Play of justice which comes just at the

right time. I have lived long enough to see there is always fairness

brought about by Him, it was there although with quiet contemplation

and much prayer will mention during dads many beatings to me and even

one time of knocking out teeth that I learned at a young age who was my

true Father and would never call anyone but Father God my Father

although always having respect for elders, it was there when as a baby

when he knocked me out of high chair and my breath went out of my body

that it was not my time to go yet and God had special need for me which

was in nursing the dying.Nor

when he beat me for not going to sleep immediately standing over my bed

with continual slaps. i tried to pretend to sleep so he would not

continue with these beatings all of night... and they made me to go to

church which was my only outlett at the time.I

felt Gods spirit at young age and then now am blessed with learning

this wonderful belief system where as Bhoji,doing smoking, drinking,

parties, the best of clothes turned away from all this,where someone

that was precious sadhak prayed and i studied for one year but God took

away all sensual desires, all mine, myself, me to where there is only

Bagwaan and i am so lost as i only know 1 prayer of please never let me

forget you and only God is mine, there is noone else, it is my prayer

that i progress although mind is stubborn and hard to tame but desires

i do not have need of anything in this world but Vasudev Sarvam

khogi(seeker catherine)------------Are Some Paths More Direct? How to Get Past Dogmas towards Common Ground?Dear

Mike! You are a serious seeker in practice and you should tell us how

to mould ourselves into the groove!! Anyway, let me chatter to purge

the urge from within. As I see it, there CANNOT BE ANY PATH to

attain The Truth for the simple reason that THAT has no characteristics

to be identified with in terms time, space, matter, action, thought,

experience, etc. Every spiritual path is designed to wash away the

ignorance one hoards within "to be THAT" rather than seeking IT. The

ignorance collected within varies from person to person depending on

the circumstantial and personal conditioning over one's life (even

lives, if you believe in multiple births!). Terefore, seeking (paths)

can never be unique as the seekers can never be the same. However,

The Target for all activities (whether we term it spiritual or not) has

to be unique though the seeker may not be aware of it initially.

Everyone IS invariably seeking THE SAME TRUTH knowingly or unknowingly,

purposefully or aimlessly, in spirit or in indifference, in acceptance

or in denial. If the spiritual path (wherein the seeker pro-actively

seeks to be The Truth) does not reveal that uniqueness in the sought,

there is a flaw in the path - it is seeker's responsibility to

perpetually correct oneself against this error. Dogmas exist

because of the importance we give to the path rather than its target.

If the seeker hangs on to the process itself rather than sprinting

toward the sought, dogmas are created as if the sought itself could be

a variant! In my opinion, the correction should be triggered as soon as

duality reveals in the sought. Then, every path is sure to attain THE

SAME TRUTH without fail. || Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishThaa; vedaah sarvaangaani; satyamaayatanam ||To

keep the path perpetually free of all the dogmas, the seeker should be

vigilant, discriminant and proactive to tap all the resources of

knowledge from around as well as from within not letting one's eyes off

The Truth even for a second perging away all the misonomers that could

come across perpetually. The essence of the teachings our

great seers are lost over a period of time turning the same into dogmas

in our fragmented minds. It is like the dust collecting on the mirror.

We need detergents to clean the same to see ourselves in clarity. Over

time, there have been agents producing the detergents to cleanse the

mirror for self-retrospection - Vyaasa, Buddha, Mahaaveera,

ZaratushTra, Confuscious, Jesus, Shankara, Paigambar, Ramana, Ram

Sukhdas, ... innumerable to count. We are so lucky to have them all

from their gospels, we are so lucky to witness their wisdom ... but,

why these dogmas bother us almost always?! Our lopsided intelligence!

Instead of cleaning the mirror with the lotion they benevolently gave

us, we safegaurd the lotion as if the lotion is ultimate ... instead of

respecting The Truth, we adore the lotion, we are infatuated with their

producer, we develop identity with the brand of the lotion and fight

for safegaurding the brand instead of seeking The Truth. In worshiping

the same Gurus, we forget their actual teachings and turn into dogmatic

and fractional fanatism. What we need is to salute the

producer, respect the lotion and apply the same to cleanse our mirrors

(consciousness) to seek ourselves. If we do that, there cannot be any

dogma in any path. The dogma is created as we release our ego into the

very seeking which collects identities even in spiritual seeking. The

identities create fractures in the knowledge. Fractured intellect is

the root cause for all the dogmas. Nothing wrong with the ego -

collecting identities is its nature. What is wrong is in the one who

releases the same knowingly or unknowingly. Are Some Paths

More Direct? How can any path have any relative quality when all

originates from, runs through and enters into THE SAME TRUTH on one

hand; and has no relevance to each other from personal and

circumstantial points of view on the other hand?! There can be

comparison neither beteen an apple and itself nor between an apple and

an orange - however you look at it. The very notion of relativity is

the dogma. Whichever path does not generate additional confusion

within, is the most direct path - "Na buddhibhedam janayet". Whatever

is closest to one's nature is the most direct path - "Shreyaan

svadharmo vigunah paradharmaat svanushThitaat". Every being

automatically chooses a path that is closest to its nature and hence

everything anything is ever treading is verily as direct as anything

else that anybody else could be treading. Bhagavaan Vyaasa says, just

seek and never preach. I think, that is the lesson we should all learn

from. How to Get Past Dogmas towards Common Ground? "Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishThaa, vedaah sarvaangaani, SATYAMAAYATANAM". Hope that helps. Respects.Naga Narayana-------------------------Hari OmYou are

right, Rajaji. Humility is in itself a virtue (BG 16:1/2) ! Also,

reading Divine Sister Catherine is in itself is Divine. Coming to

Muslim Brethren a sadhak told me recently that "Khuda" means .... Khud

( You , yourself) ... Aa (Come) ! He told how faithfuls spread cloth

wherever they are, at appointed hours of Namaaj and remember Him. What

a power Faith has !! In fact all religions of world are based on

"faith" ( Gita calls it 'manyate'/ 'shraddha' ) . Swamiji, inter alia,

also called that "sveekruti" (acceptance). Christians : Faith ! Accept

, O Divine Sadhaks.... Have Faith... Belief .... Knowledge has to

follow. Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B --------Good Contribution. Jayantilal Shah---------------------------Dear Soul,May God Bless You Yes, some paths are direct

and instant. Shri Gita is direct dialogue between God and Human Being.

Just go through Chapter 12 and follow it sincerely. The path will come

to you, you will not be in search of path. Incarnation, Reincarnation

are scientifically true and if one does not believe

in it, no matter. Things being discovered of recent such as reverence for Earth, Trees, Air etc. these have been respected and

worshipped in Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma) from the beginning. Again, this philosophies are not limited to a particular group/sect, but applicable globally, that is why Hindu Dharma does not believe in conversion. READ SHRI GITA AND BE HAPPY.Mahesh Sharma ---------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Mike,When Superiority turns to Humility then love arises.Love and only love is direct pathThanxRaja Gurdasani--------------------------DEAREST SADHAKS,Wonderful topic and religions per se are known by their fruits. In all faiths they teach we should love our brothers as our self. Is it done?Is it practiced? One is seen by what is shown, are there gossipers amongst them and all is attributed to love or lack thereof? The underlining theme is love.If you have love amongst yourselves then the law is accomplished.All teachings are fundamentally the same if previewed with depth.I have met very spiritual Christians following God through Gods Son who did the work of his Father preaching and always pointing towards the way the truth and the life, i have seen wonderful Muslims happy in their faith both men and women happy in praising Allah, and Hindus are such peaceful loving that give such precious gems of what is necessary for life so if followed peace will ensue. Khogi CatherineShree Hari Ram Ram Dear Catherine, We were curious as to what Khogi stands for? Is it Kho gayi? Lost in Love! Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram ---Time and again questions pops in my head: Why do I want to know (realize ) God? Is he Fair Or Merciful? How can he be both? The answer that I can not question is: I want to know because I love Him. Him and this UNIVERSE as Him. He is Fair (Actions have Reactions; Choices have consequences) And he is Merciful, so when I know Him Fully that is Accept Him as Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnopotent, I know my material sorrounding is from my Karma but the inner peace granted to me is his Grace.For me that is where any religion should lead. And most of my Friends, nomatter what religion they practice accept that.Hemendra Parikh------------------------Dear Sadhak-insight My feeling is that one should not concern themselves whether others / church believes or not in something. The reincarnation principle is a universal truth and hence we should believe and act accordingly, Truly yours S S Bhatt--------------------------PRIOR POSTINGUnderstanding the wisdom/rules of life is the keyHappiness is the key value and everything else gets derived from this value.....It is very scientific....It is not about christian, muslim, hindu........or any other label etc.....It is about truth, it is about our rules applicable to us, It is about the research world over on the wisdom of life....for centuries....In India too this happened vigorously and results were amazing..... Religions/labels are based the truth of life and not the vice-a-versa.....Need today is to integrate these learnings and systematically make them available to the people especially to children without a label....like any other subject we teach....like maths, physics, chemistry, medicine....do we worry about the muslim, hindu, christian labels....We all need to get out of these labels and go to the basics...if you really want to see yourself happy and if you really want to see the world happy....Sushil Jain-------My understanding is that the Abrahamic religions is more COMMAND/ORDER based, that is why they are more orderly.They all stress one path- faith/obedience. Disobedience is the sin.Thus, they don't dwell on re-birth. That concept is irrelevant to them, because they want you to get it right in this life or be lost for ever.As opposed to it, we have countless opportunities to work at our own pace. Thus, re-birthbecomes significant. In our system, it can happen in split of a second or in eons, it is up tous. All paths are fine, all paths are true (sort of an oxymoron, that is why at the end, in most arguments with Christians and Muslims, most Hindus look like fools!), etc. This is quite different from One life, one chance- if you do not follow the order, you eternally burn in hell. Just like a police or even a loving mother. Both have to be strict to ensure their message is followed.Jainism & Buddhism also relatively more orderly than Hinduism (sanatana Dharma).Because they also stress on one path-knowledge/reasoning. However, they also believe in re-birth and innumerable opportunities.As we know, it is the Abrahamic religions that call the shots in this world.They are prepared, proactive (within the limits, like Judaism does not seek converts);Hinduism may be pre-pro active (as it has thought of all possibilities for all times), but what I have seen is that Hindus are only reactive. Even the number of Hindus in the world is probably not more than one or at the most two! Because, that is purely for census and for Missionariesand Mullahs to round us up. As many Hindus are that many Hinduism is!Koti Sreekrishna=================================PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadaks,There is line in Bible, ""Empty they self I shall fill it"". This same thing Bagavan in Geetha has said. Contemplate.Once Sadaks who took to sanyasin sitting inside there hut were arguing about a boulder outside the hut, as the stone boulder was Granite or Not. A saint passing by hearing this argument said to them, "" You sadaks please tell me whether the stone inside or outside"". What was the saint saying?Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan.---------Namaste! Dear Sadhakas!My humble and respectful response to our Brother Dr Ranjeet Singh is as follows:If we can see commonality among various religious practices, we can be moreunderstanding and respectful of other traditions and hence can live peacefullywhile pursuing our own path. Our paths are generally determined by prevailingreligious practices of the place and time into which we are born. So when we seecommonality, it doesn't mean we give up what appeals to us easily. It is theappreciation of other paths that is stressed here in our comments.Life is One, Truth is One, various are Its expressions all lovely and beautiful!However, if we concentrate on differences, we are likely to be defensive andfight for wrong reasons!What is common among human relationship is Love which when recognized as themost important element, lets us play appropriate roles as men and women. Love isIntelligence that knows the differences in relationships. Then gender,nationality, race, don't seem to matter! If Love is lacking then only thesebecome issues.In my understanding there are common elements between non-dual teaching ofVedanta, Zen-Buddhism, Sufi aspects in Islam, Hasidic teachings(I think it is)of Judaism, Taoism, Contemplative Christianity. It is just heartening to knowsuch is the case.� Why emphasize differences?Jesus never claimed to be God, he is the son of God. He had Realized Self. He isChrist-Consciousness. Bypassing the dogmas, we can feel/experience God, theSpirit according to Bible, is like Supreme Consciousness, Brahman! God is justrepresentation of Oneness, not located at a place. We should not go by whatwords are used because it depends on the context and the audiences.The beautiful aspects of Christianity are service to all with devotion, charity,and sacrifice for fellow human beings. Such qualities are to be admired, ratherthan saying they don't have concept of liberation.When Krishna addresses Him as "Me" in Gita, it means Supreme Consciousness onlyspeaking through Historical figure Krishna in Human form. This means all canworship Him in whatever forms they worship with this Understanding in their ownways.Finally we are not reinventing new paths, we are stressing the importance ofseeing the underlying commonality across all religious practices once the dogmasare seen for what they are and bypassed! It is inspiring to know mankindeverywhere else have also thought about the same Truth and expressed in theirown language and circumstances! We are just lucky to have Vedas where we are asmuch as they are to have theirs!Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt-----------Shree Hari-Dear Dr. Ranjeet Singh, It was argued: "There is one God that is Christ", sorry absolute nonsense, and by they way I will show by your arguments my point is valid. Christ kept referring to His Father, and said he could do nothing without His Father, he surrendered to His Fathers will, even when he thought he had been abandoned. Jesus said also, Father forgive them for they ...", he did not say "I forgive you". The nature of Jesus was not taken by Christianity from the bible, but spun by Greeko/Roman neo Pagans.See ex Wikipedia 'Between 325 and 681, Christians theologically articulated and refined their view of the nature of Jesus by a series of SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS' THUS THE DOGMA. I will add that all Christian festivals are thinly disguised Pagan festivals. Reference to Moksha, Jesus said"The Kingdom of GOD is not coming with signs to be observed ....fore the kingdom is in the mids of you. Also, "The kingdom has come but you see it not". Also I have quoted before the death of Ego, surrendering ones life,.. Read Julian of Norwich insights of of the 'Divine Indwelling'(SELF), I posted just recently. You are confusing, the Mystic with the Fundamentalist, that was the point in my comment. By the way why do I read Sadhaks refer to Lord Krishna as Bhagavan. "As Men come to me...." I could debate and argue this further, but......?With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor).---------------------------Pranaams. According to the Dictionary; Dogma is:1. a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.2. a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.3. prescribed doctrine: political dogma.4. a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle. In belief system--Sanatana Dharma, we have the freedom/right to interact with Bhagwaan however He inspires us to. Meaning that how we feel about Bhagwaan has a relation to how He(She) wants us to. Ours is not manmade religion with --specific rules. such as--you have to pray so many times a day,fast on certain days or else you must give a percentage of your earnings etc. Concepts of Bhakti and Prema are beautifully explored in messages of Bhagwaan. Fear is not a concept created by Bhagwaan rather it is Love of God.The problem is that some Sampradayas too have made up rules and this is what causes problems in Sanatana Dharma. Eg, some say that The Lord will not accept food that has onions and garlic. etc. Rules and more rules which sometime scare people away. We have seen from the Kathas of many Bhaktas that there is no boundary between The Lord and His Devotee--He accepted basi fruit as Sri Rama. People use isolated verses from Scriptures to create Dogma in Sanatana Dharma and we must be wary of this. Dogma scares people away from The Divine while Sanatana Dharma is the eternal natural path to Union with The Divine. We get pass Dogma we reach The Divine faster. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ---------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari-Dear Dr. Ranjeet Singh,I am not sure if you are comparing people of other faiths along with animals, 'no chance of Moksha, not in this life any way'.Mysticism (as difined in the Wikipedia).Nullification and absorption within God's Infinite Light (Chassidic schools of Judaism)Complete detachment from the world (Kaivalya in some schools of Hinduism, including Sankhya and Yoga; Jhana in Buddhism)Liberation from the cycles of Karma (Moksha in Jainism and Hinduism, Nirvana In Buddhism)Deep intrinsic connection to the world (Satori in Mahayana Buddhism, Te in Taoism)Union with God (Henosis in Neoplatonism and Theosis in Christianity, Brahma-Prapti or Brahma-Nirvana in Hinduism)Innate Knowledge (Irfan and fitra in Islam) Experience of one's true blissful nature (Samadhi or Svarupa-Avirbhava in Hinduism)According to Jesus, the Kingdom of God is within (or among) people,[3] is approached through understanding,[4] and entered through acceptance like a child,[5] spiritual rebirth,[6] and doing the will of God. (Ex Wikipedia)The Seventh Heaven is something I know nothing of, But it is in the Kabbalah; apparently, never heard of it in Christianity.Jesus answered , "I have not a demon; but I honor my Father...."The Jews said, " You are not yet fifty years old, and you say you have seen Abraham? Jesus said to them truly truly I say to you before Abraham, I am...."."Who sinned that that man be born blind, he or his parents?"Elijah has come.... and they understood he spoke of John th Baptist,(Reincarnated after 300 years)Reincarnation was taught by the western Church until 553 AD.Can one see that the Mystic cannot be tied up with dogma.Now can one grasp how the intellect, can mull over the paradoxes twixt dogma and the written, to the point where one has to go so deep with the desire for the Truth, reaching for the Divine, to the point where you fear for your life by what you find, but cannot let go?Can one understand what I am writing about, do you think that I am a closet Christian ?I love the 'Divine Beloved'.BHAGAVAD GITA Ch:929. The same am I to all beings; to me there is none hateful or dear; but thosewho worship me with devotion are in me and I am also in them.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor---"Lift up the self by the Self And do not let the self droop down. For the Self is the self's only friend And the self is the Self's only foe." - Sri Krishna (from The Bhagavad Gita)"Ben"---------------------My dear mikelove god and thats all u need.whats this fuss all about.ThanxRaja gurdasani---------------------Dear Sadhakas,Hare KrishnaIn Bhagavad-Gita Lord Krishna explains as to who is a perfect devotee" Mayy avesya mano ye mam, nitya ukta upasate sraddhaya parayopetas, te me yuktatama matah " ( Gita 12, 2 )which means"Those who fix their minds in me and are always engaged in worshipping Me withthe great transcendental faith are considered by me to be the most perfect"Lord Krishna also described who is very dear to Him."advesta sarva bhutanam , maitra karuna eva ca, nirmamo nirahankarah,sama-dukha-sukhah kshami, santustah satatam yogi, yatatma dhruda niscayahmayyarpita -mano-buddhir,yo mad-bhaktah sa me priyah" (Gita 12,,13 and 14)which means" One who has no hatred towards any one,a friend to all, who has no ego,who is equal both in happiness and sorrow, who is always satisfied, self contolled, tolerant and who is engaged in devotional service with his mind and intelligence , fixed in me- such a devotee is very dear to Me."Importance of devotional service is clearly stressed here. Pure devotional service with compassion towards every one is Bhakti Yoga." Yajnanam japa- yajnosmi " (Gita 10, 25) which means " Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names" (Japa)...chanting of the holy names " Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare, Hare Krishna Hare Krishna ,Krishna Krishna Hare Hare" is simple and pureIn this Kali Yuga, this chanting is highly recommended and it is very practical.Chaitanya Mahaprabhu conducted this sankirtana (japa) yajna five hundred years ago.This is a direct path to attain the Lord.Let us chant and be peaceful and happyHare KrishnaPrasad.Iragavarapu, M.D--Shree HariRam Ram The response is more focused on Sadhaks then the Paths.... From Swamiji's teachings -A sadhak (seeker, aspirant) must get past dogmas and not have insistence on his own regarding any doctrines, opinions, philosophical ideas, religious sect or religious community that he belongs to. Rather he must act in accordance to their teachings. Insistent on opinions and philosophical ideas of his own religious sect, creates animosity with other sects. Thus he is unable to be open minded and free of biases and will be deprived of good learnings from all. Generally the limitations are our own understanding, not in them. Therefore if any of their actions are not understood by us, and appear flawed to us, then personally we must not pursue and act on those things. Simply speaking .... Paramatma is only One - though Names and Forms / Formless aspects may be different. There is no gain in any of this. Do not favor one view over another and have no differences. All this is a waste of time. Simply get engaged in God and God alone, as this birth is only for that purpose. Oh Lord, Oh Lord ! Pray that you do not get entangled in dogmas, doctrines, sects, philosophical ideas, Organizations, Groups etc. There is simply no gain in any of this - says Swamiji. Meera DasRam Ram------ PRIOR POSTINGDear Gita Sadhak Bandhus,In our humble opinion, it is not the common elements that are important but those that are particular. There are many things that are common in humans and animals. Can they, therefore, become the same, or be treated like the same on that account?It was argued: "There is one God that is Christ", and Hindu says, "Survum Vasudeva Mayam". This is not commonalty and cannot prove similarity of the two.The neighbour's wife, one's wife and daughter have many elements that are common. They are all females, have head, neck, feet, limbs and feminine organs which are common, besides many others. But, on that basis, can one be replaced by the other? Can the daughter or the neighbour's wife also become one's wife, act as such, or be treated as such?Similarly, in our humble opinion (the manner in which understood) Brahm and Christian God are not the same. The latter resides in the seventh heavens, while Brahm is every where and in everything. How can the two be the same, therefore?In Gita Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Eeshvarah sarva bhootaanaam hrid-deshe Arjuna tishtthati (18:61); meaning thereby, that Eeshvar dwells in the heart of all beings. Now, who else says that? Do Judaism, Islam and Christianity also say the same?Then it was also said: � in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/ dogmatic/ progressive ways to liberation. But, how can there be ways to liberation the concept of it in various religions; when there is not even a talk of liberation or Moksha in them.Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Yaanti deva-vrataa devaan, pitreen-yaanti pitri-vrataah/ bhootaani yaanti bhoot-ejyaa, yaanti mad-yaajino'pi maam// (9:25); meaning: MY votaries, My worshippers, reach Me, and those of the Devas, Pitris, and Bhutas reach them; not Me. Then it is unclear, how will worshippers of other reach Krishna then?We have placed some of the doubts that have crossed into our mind when we read the above post and on account of which we think Sadhna on the basis of commonalty shall not lead to the destination we have chosen for ourselves as Gita Sadhaks. And, therefore, we should stick to the paths shown by the Scriptures and our great ancestors rather than devising or searching for new ones. Bhagawan Manu, the progenitor of human race, has taught us:Yenaasya pitaro yaataa, yena yaataah pitaa-mahaah/Tena yaayaat-sataam maargam, tena gachhan-na rishyate// 4:178which means, follow in the footsteps of your fathers and grand-fathers, the path taken by your ancestors, the sat-purushaas. So doing, one will not meet any harm.With apologies,Dr. Ranjeet Singh--------------------------This is my opinion .......The Great Thinkers of the Past (GTPs) had a powerful sixth sence and intuition.They observed, felt, experienced in the Nature around, within lifeforms, withinmankind and within themselves something physical, they analysed it with theiracute intelligence and described it to the best of their abilities, knowledgeand language in the form of religious scriptures.Now we we are more evolved in knowledge, information, means of observations, andresources of experience. We can as well feel the same physical sense andinterpret it with the help of scientific knowledge and information. We now havethe backing of experimental results and information. I feel, the Great Thinkersof the Present (GTPs again) should review the past scriptures, instead ofbelieving in them blindly, and correct them whereever needed.I am aware of the fact that my views and assumptions will not be easily accepted...but I hope, to some individuals, it may be appealing....Gee Waman-----Shree Hari Ram RamParamatma is Eternal, and Paramatma's message (Eternal Laws and Principles - Dharma) is also eternal and unchanging not perishable and limited by time, space, causation.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram ----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadaks,Christianity said the following: 1) That world is square in old testoment. Hindu says yes, as it has Chathur Yug 4 Yugas in a square depicted in Vishnu Puran. Quran of Muslims say the world in Char (Four) slots that is 4 Yugas. 2) Christians says NO rebirth or incarnation. Here incarnation is differant from birth. It is saying about Athuman (Holy Sprit) that has no birth. Sri Krishna says Athuman has NO death or births. 3) Christians say,(a) "Love thy Neighbour as thyself. (b) Do not cast your eyes on your neighbour` s wife. © Show the other cheek when slapped. (d)There is only One God that is Christ"". For (a) Survam Vasudeva Mayam (b) Kama-Lust when seeing somebody wife Ref Vishnu Puran © forgiveness (Sowlabiyam) lived Example Sri Ekanath Maharaj of recent (d) only one Paramathuma. Christians can note Whom is Christ often calls "Oh my father In Heavens" Hindus say God is formless and can attain any form. Muslims pray formless. Some Christians this as well as that.This is what Sri Krishna In Geetha has said to people "Moodha" (Ignorant).--- Not going in deep in scripts is cause. Jai Sri Krishna-----------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Brother Mike, right you are, some paths are more direct.Direct paths, as I understand them, bypass dogmas, as useful as they may be for some in initial stages. It is like bypasses/loops built around the city for those traveling beyond the city. In-city and out of city traffic get helped in this ways.The approach of Vedanta is direct Realization of who/what we are. Therefore, upon such Realization, all our actions come from this Truth of us, and not from not-knowing ourselves. Truth liberates, and ignorance, as much as we say is bliss, nevertheless, binds us. As you say in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/dogmatic/progressive ways to liberation.How do we get past dogmas? Again, as you say, seeing the commonality in them helps to a great extent to broaden our visions, so we can drop/bypass non-essentials at the time. In my experience, I see more and more common elements in all of them now than before, and if for some reasons, I see conflicting views, I resolve in one of two ways: Either I don't know/interpret in the context/spirit it should be, or it is not relevant at this time for me.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt-----------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit the use to Sanskrit words and provide English wordbracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - ---------------

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Shree Hari Ram Ram Sadhaks, we have lost some postings over the past couple of days. There seems to be so issues with and using Internet Explorer. SOmetimes it is difficult for us to recreate these, so if you find an important posting missing, please kindly send us reminder, with the posting details. Thank you, From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

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Re: Are Some Paths More Direct? How to Get Past Dogmas towards Common Ground?

-Shree Hari-

Dear Brethren,

What I have found is that the biggest stumbling block is dogma, itcan act as a block to progress. But if one steps around these blocks,driven by ones own insight, then yes one will arrive at the commonground, metaphorically the Christian will stand hand in hand withJain, Hindu, and Muslim etc, having also completed their windingpath.Simple example, reincarnation, from a scriptural and intuitive pointof view it must be. And yet of course the Church denies it.(In all probability some paths are more direct).

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

--------------------------

NEW POSTING

Dear Sadhak,

Only God is mine and I am God's. This is the only path -direct, effective and certain.

Love, bhakti, gyaan comes from this acceptance.

With Love,

A Sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

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Hari OmI must say that when I read Divine Catherine's message, I really got emotional and tears flowed ...! Sheer "Dukhalayam" is this world. No relationship however great that may be, can be equal to that of Jeeva and Jagdish. "Naught" ... "Naught" only can emerge out of this world which exists not.But, Divine Sister, we should now thank those who brought us closer to our Real Father. This world is capable of being "Vasudev" if we become equanimous ( I know you know this)! Old memories are in mind and not in us. We are eternal. Pains had divinity hidden in them. A simple focus on that Divine hidden in those pains must convert this Dukhalayam into Vasudev. What do you say, Divine Sister? The time has come! I know you have already seen Divine hand in them ! Now bless them! Bless Law of Karma! Your blessing them will acquit them of their bondages! Bless us ! O Divine ! You can never forget Paramatma ! NEVER ! Pranaams to you, Dear Divine Sister!Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B -------------------------------

- Shree Hari -

Dear Catherine,Dear GOD, may He bless you. Sometimes souls have been exposed to the path ofFire, that Fire can burn away the dross, leaving behind the Gold. Yes I dounderstand the pain, and yet GOD's love can take away the hatreds, the wounds,the prejudges.Divine Grace is all around, but so many are blind to this Truth.Dear Naga Narayana ji, what can I say, you have reflected many of my thoughts,with much greater eloquence than I am able.A Christian mystic quoted Lord Buddha, "I point at the moon, and you look at myfinger", and made the comment, then people start to argue about the length andthe quality of the finger.A favorite saying of mine is, 'liturgy points, dogma blocks'.I could not tell anyone how to mould themselves into the groove, I once criedout in anguish, "What do I know Lord, what do I know".The only thing I know is I wanted to see as it were the light shining beyond thehorizon, in the terrain around are stumbling blocks, and yes if one movesthrough that terrain, one will get cut and bruised, and will trip and fall. Butone makes progress, how else can one make progress?A dear soul, my Guide my Teacher, once said to me, "Mike no religion will everhold you".That's it, care not for how you are treated, the fear mongers, the bombasticjudges of your soul.Care only for 'The Divine Beloved'.With Respect and Divine Love.Mike (K)

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PRIOR POSTING

Dearest brothers and sisters, Ram Ram to all of these devotees. Being khogi (seeker) as until attaining equanimity cannot be considered as devotee as I do not want to stumble others by being calling myself deserved when I am the least of you my sadhaks.yes it is as Mike Keenor said that we are all brothers and sisters being a fragment of God so why should we war or be worldly? This world offers naught to us, but God offers all we need.Love encompasses all which is Paramaatma. and but to sit back and watch Gods Play of justice which comes just at the right time. I have lived long enough to see there is always fairness brought about by Him, it was there although with quiet contemplation and much prayer will mention during dads many beatings to me and even one time of knocking out teeth that I learned at a young age who was my true Father and would never call anyone but Father God my Father although always having respect for elders, it was there when as a baby when he knocked me out of high chair and my breath went out of my body that it was not my time to go yet and God had special need for me which was in nursing the dying.Nor when he beat me for not going to sleep immediately standing over my bed with continual slaps. i tried to pretend to sleep so he would not continue with these beatings all of night... and they made me to go to church which was my only outlett at the time.I felt Gods spirit at young age and then now am blessed with learning this wonderful belief system where as Bhoji,doing smoking, drinking, parties, the best of clothes turned away from all this,where someone that was precious sadhak prayed and i studied for one year but God took away all sensual desires, all mine, myself, me to where there is only Bagwaan and i am so lost as i only know 1 prayer of please never let me forget you and only God is mine, there is noone else, it is my prayer that i progress although mind is stubborn and hard to tame but desires i do not have need of anything in this world but Vasudev Sarvam khogi(seeker catherine)

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Are Some Paths More Direct? How to Get Past Dogmas towards Common Ground?

Dear Mike! You are a serious seeker in practice and you should tell us how to mould ourselves into the groove!! Anyway, let me chatter to purge the urge from within.

As I see it, there CANNOT BE ANY PATH to attain The Truth for the simple reason that THAT has no characteristics to be identified with in terms time, space, matter, action, thought, experience, etc. Every spiritual path is designed to wash away the ignorance one hoards within "to be THAT" rather than seeking IT. The ignorance collected within varies from person to person depending on the circumstantial and personal conditioning over one's life (even lives, if you believe in multiple births!). Terefore, seeking (paths) can never be unique as the seekers can never be the same.

However, The Target for all activities (whether we term it spiritual or not) has to be unique though the seeker may not be aware of it initially. Everyone IS invariably seeking THE SAME TRUTH knowingly or unknowingly, purposefully or aimlessly, in spirit or in indifference, in acceptance or in denial. If the spiritual path (wherein the seeker pro-actively seeks to be The Truth) does not reveal that uniqueness in the sought, there is a flaw in the path - it is seeker's responsibility to perpetually correct oneself against this error.

Dogmas exist because of the importance we give to the path rather than its target. If the seeker hangs on to the process itself rather than sprinting toward the sought, dogmas are created as if the sought itself could be a variant! In my opinion, the correction should be triggered as soon as duality reveals in the sought. Then, every path is sure to attain THE SAME TRUTH without fail.

|| Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishThaa; vedaah sarvaangaani; satyamaayatanam ||

To keep the path perpetually free of all the dogmas, the seeker should be vigilant, discriminant and proactive to tap all the resources of knowledge from around as well as from within not letting one's eyes off The Truth even for a second perging away all the misonomers that could come across perpetually.

The essence of the teachings our great seers are lost over a period of time turning the same into dogmas in our fragmented minds. It is like the dust collecting on the mirror. We need detergents to clean the same to see ourselves in clarity. Over time, there have been agents producing the detergents to cleanse the mirror for self-retrospection - Vyaasa, Buddha, Mahaaveera, ZaratushTra, Confuscious, Jesus, Shankara, Paigambar, Ramana, Ram Sukhdas, ... innumerable to count. We are so lucky to have them all from their gospels, we are so lucky to witness their wisdom ... but, why these dogmas bother us almost always?! Our lopsided intelligence! Instead of cleaning the mirror with the lotion they benevolently gave us, we safegaurd the lotion as if the lotion is ultimate ... instead of respecting The Truth, we adore the lotion, we are infatuated with their producer, we develop identity with the brand of the lotion and fight for safegaurding the brand instead of seeking The Truth. In worshiping the same Gurus, we forget their actual teachings and turn into dogmatic and fractional fanatism.

What we need is to salute the producer, respect the lotion and apply the same to cleanse our mirrors (consciousness) to seek ourselves. If we do that, there cannot be any dogma in any path. The dogma is created as we release our ego into the very seeking which collects identities even in spiritual seeking. The identities create fractures in the knowledge. Fractured intellect is the root cause for all the dogmas. Nothing wrong with the ego - collecting identities is its nature. What is wrong is in the one who releases the same knowingly or unknowingly.

Are Some Paths More Direct? How can any path have any relative quality when all originates from, runs through and enters into THE SAME TRUTH on one hand; and has no relevance to each other from personal and circumstantial points of view on the other hand?! There can be comparison neither beteen an apple and itself nor between an apple and an orange - however you look at it. The very notion of relativity is the dogma. Whichever path does not generate additional confusion within, is the most direct path - "Na buddhibhedam janayet". Whatever is closest to one's nature is the most direct path - "Shreyaan svadharmo vigunah paradharmaat svanushThitaat". Every being automatically chooses a path that is closest to its nature and hence everything anything is ever treading is verily as direct as anything else that anybody else could be treading. Bhagavaan Vyaasa says, just seek and never preach. I think, that is the lesson we should all learn from.

How to Get Past Dogmas towards Common Ground? "Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishThaa, vedaah sarvaangaani, SATYAMAAYATANAM".

Hope that helps.

Respects.

Naga Narayana-------------------------

Hari Om

You are right, Rajaji. Humility is in itself a virtue (BG 16:1/2) ! Also, reading Divine Sister Catherine is in itself is Divine. Coming to Muslim Brethren a sadhak told me recently that "Khuda" means .... Khud ( You , yourself) ... Aa (Come) ! He told how faithfuls spread cloth wherever they are, at appointed hours of Namaaj and remember Him. What a power Faith has !! In fact all religions of world are based on "faith" ( Gita calls it 'manyate'/ 'shraddha' ) . Swamiji, inter alia, also called that "sveekruti" (acceptance). Christians : Faith ! Accept , O Divine Sadhaks.... Have Faith... Belief .... Knowledge has to follow.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B --------Good Contribution. Jayantilal Shah

---------------------------Dear Soul,May God Bless You

Yes, some paths are direct and instant. Shri Gita is direct dialogue between God and Human Being. Just go through Chapter 12 and follow it sincerely. The path will come to you, you will not be in search of path. Incarnation, Reincarnation are scientifically true and if one does not believe in it, no matter. Things being discovered of recent such as reverence for Earth, Trees, Air etc. these have been respected and worshipped in Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma) from the beginning. Again, this philosophies are not limited to a particular group/sect, but applicable globally, that is why Hindu Dharma does not believe in conversion. READ SHRI GITA AND BE HAPPY.

Mahesh Sharma

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Dear Mike,When Superiority turns to Humility then love arises.Love and only love is direct pathThanxRaja Gurdasani--------------------------

DEAREST SADHAKS,Wonderful topic and religions per se are known by their fruits. In all faiths they teach we should love our brothers as our self. Is it done?Is it practiced? One is seen by what is shown, are there gossipers amongst them and all is attributed to love or lack thereof? The underlining theme is love.If you have love amongst yourselves then the law is accomplished.All teachings are fundamentally the same if previewed with depth.I have met very spiritual Christians following God through Gods Son who did the work of his Father preaching and always pointing towards the way the truth and the life, i have seen wonderful Muslims happy in their faith both men and women happy in praising Allah, and Hindus are such peaceful loving that give such precious gems of what is necessary for life so if followed peace will ensue. Khogi Catherine

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Dear Catherine, We were curious as to what Khogi stands for? Is it Kho gayi? Lost in Love! Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

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Time and again questions pops in my head: Why do I want to know (realize ) God? Is he Fair Or Merciful? How can he be both? The answer that I can not question is: I want to know because I love Him. Him and this UNIVERSE as Him. He is Fair (Actions have Reactions; Choices have consequences) And he is Merciful, so when I know Him Fully that is Accept Him as Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnopotent, I know my material sorrounding is from my Karma but the inner peace granted to me is his Grace.

For me that is where any religion should lead. And most of my Friends, nomatter what religion they practice accept that.

Hemendra Parikh

------------------------Dear Sadhak-insight My feeling is that one should not concern themselves whether others / church believes or not in something. The reincarnation principle is a universal truth and hence we should believe and act accordingly, Truly yours S S Bhatt--------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Understanding the wisdom/rules of life is the key

Happiness is the key value and everything else gets derived from this value.....It is very scientific....

It is not about christian, muslim, hindu........or any other label etc.....It is about truth, it is about our rules applicable to us, It is about the research world over on the wisdom of life....for centuries....In India too this happened vigorously and results were amazing..... Religions/labels are based the truth of life and not the vice-a-versa.....

Need today is to integrate these learnings and systematically make them available to the people especially to children without a label....like any other subject we teach....like maths, physics, chemistry, medicine....do we worry about the muslim, hindu, christian labels....We all need to get out of these labels and go to the basics...if you really want to see yourself happy and if you really want to see the world happy....Sushil Jain

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My understanding is that the Abrahamic religions is more COMMAND/ORDER based, that is why they are more orderly.They all stress one path- faith/obedience. Disobedience is the sin.Thus, they don't dwell on re-birth. That concept is irrelevant to them, because they want you to get it right in this life or be lost for ever.

As opposed to it, we have countless opportunities to work at our own pace. Thus, re-birthbecomes significant. In our system, it can happen in split of a second or in eons, it is up tous. All paths are fine, all paths are true (sort of an oxymoron, that is why at the end, in most arguments with Christians and Muslims, most Hindus look like fools!), etc. This is quite different from One life, one chance- if you do not follow the order, you eternally burn in hell. Just like a police or even a loving mother. Both have to be strict to ensure their message is followed.Jainism & Buddhism also relatively more orderly than Hinduism (sanatana Dharma).Because they also stress on one path-knowledge/reasoning. However, they also believe in re-birth and innumerable opportunities.As we know, it is the Abrahamic religions that call the shots in this world.They are prepared, proactive (within the limits, like Judaism does not seek converts);Hinduism may be pre-pro active (as it has thought of all possibilities for all times), but what I have seen is that Hindus are only reactive. Even the number of Hindus in the world is probably not more than one or at the most two! Because, that is purely for census and for Missionariesand Mullahs to round us up. As many Hindus are that many Hinduism is!

Koti Sreekrishna

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PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadaks,There is line in Bible, ""Empty they self I shall fill it"". This same thing Bagavan in Geetha has said. Contemplate.Once Sadaks who took to sanyasin sitting inside there hut were arguing about a boulder outside the hut, as the stone boulder was Granite or Not. A saint passing by hearing this argument said to them, "" You sadaks please tell me whether the stone inside or outside"". What was the saint saying?Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan.---------

Namaste! Dear Sadhakas!My humble and respectful response to our Brother Dr Ranjeet Singh is as follows:If we can see commonality among various religious practices, we can be moreunderstanding and respectful of other traditions and hence can live peacefullywhile pursuing our own path. Our paths are generally determined by prevailingreligious practices of the place and time into which we are born. So when we seecommonality, it doesn't mean we give up what appeals to us easily. It is theappreciation of other paths that is stressed here in our comments.Life is One, Truth is One, various are Its expressions all lovely and beautiful!However, if we concentrate on differences, we are likely to be defensive andfight for wrong reasons!

What is common among human relationship is Love which when recognized as themost important element, lets us play appropriate roles as men and women. Love isIntelligence that knows the differences in relationships. Then gender,nationality, race, don't seem to matter! If Love is lacking then only thesebecome issues.

In my understanding there are common elements between non-dual teaching ofVedanta, Zen-Buddhism, Sufi aspects in Islam, Hasidic teachings(I think it is)of Judaism, Taoism, Contemplative Christianity. It is just heartening to knowsuch is the case.� Why emphasize differences?

Jesus never claimed to be God, he is the son of God. He had Realized Self. He isChrist-Consciousness. Bypassing the dogmas, we can feel/experience God, theSpirit according to Bible, is like Supreme Consciousness, Brahman! God is justrepresentation of Oneness, not located at a place. We should not go by whatwords are used because it depends on the context and the audiences.The beautiful aspects of Christianity are service to all with devotion, charity,and sacrifice for fellow human beings. Such qualities are to be admired, ratherthan saying they don't have concept of liberation.

When Krishna addresses Him as "Me" in Gita, it means Supreme Consciousness onlyspeaking through Historical figure Krishna in Human form. This means all canworship Him in whatever forms they worship with this Understanding in their ownways.

Finally we are not reinventing new paths, we are stressing the importance ofseeing the underlying commonality across all religious practices once the dogmasare seen for what they are and bypassed! It is inspiring to know mankindeverywhere else have also thought about the same Truth and expressed in theirown language and circumstances! We are just lucky to have Vedas where we are asmuch as they are to have theirs!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

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-Shree Hari-

Dear Dr. Ranjeet Singh, It was argued: "There is one God that is Christ", sorry absolute nonsense, and by they way I will show by your arguments my point is valid. Christ kept referring to His Father, and said he could do nothing without His Father, he surrendered to His Fathers will, even when he thought he had been abandoned. Jesus said also, Father forgive them for they ...", he did not say "I forgive you". The nature of Jesus was not taken by Christianity from the bible, but spun by Greeko/Roman neo Pagans.See ex Wikipedia 'Between 325 and 681, Christians theologically articulated and refined their view of the nature of Jesus by a series of SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS' THUS THE DOGMA. I will add that all Christian festivals are thinly disguised Pagan festivals. Reference to Moksha, Jesus said"The Kingdom of GOD is not coming with signs to be observed ....fore the kingdom is in the mids of you. Also, "The kingdom has come but you see it not". Also I have quoted before the death of Ego, surrendering ones life,.. Read Julian of Norwich insights of of the 'Divine Indwelling'(SELF), I posted just recently. You are confusing, the Mystic with the Fundamentalist, that was the point in my comment. By the way why do I read Sadhaks refer to Lord Krishna as Bhagavan. "As Men come to me...." I could debate and argue this further, but......?

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike (Keenor).

---------------------------Pranaams. According to the Dictionary; Dogma is:1. a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.2. a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.3. prescribed doctrine: political dogma.4. a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle. In belief system--Sanatana Dharma, we have the freedom/right to interact with Bhagwaan however He inspires us to. Meaning that how we feel about Bhagwaan has a relation to how He(She) wants us to. Ours is not manmade religion with --specific rules. such as--you have to pray so many times a day,fast on certain days or else you must give a percentage of your earnings etc. Concepts of Bhakti and Prema are beautifully explored in messages of Bhagwaan. Fear is not a concept created by Bhagwaan rather it is Love of God.The problem is that some Sampradayas too have made up rules and this is what causes problems in Sanatana Dharma. Eg, some say that The Lord will not accept food that has onions and garlic. etc. Rules and more rules which sometime scare people away. We have seen from the Kathas of many Bhaktas that there is no boundary between The Lord and His Devotee--He accepted basi fruit as Sri Rama. People use isolated verses from Scriptures to create Dogma in Sanatana Dharma and we must be wary of this. Dogma scares people away from The Divine while Sanatana Dharma is the eternal natural path to Union with The Divine. We get pass Dogma we reach The Divine faster. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)

 

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PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

Dear Dr. Ranjeet Singh,

I am not sure if you are comparing people of other faiths along with animals, 'no chance of Moksha, not in this life any way'.

Mysticism (as difined in the Wikipedia).

Nullification and absorption within God's Infinite Light (Chassidic schools of Judaism)Complete detachment from the world (Kaivalya in some schools of Hinduism, including Sankhya and Yoga; Jhana in Buddhism)Liberation from the cycles of Karma (Moksha in Jainism and Hinduism, Nirvana In Buddhism)Deep intrinsic connection to the world (Satori in Mahayana Buddhism, Te in Taoism)Union with God (Henosis in Neoplatonism and Theosis in Christianity, Brahma-Prapti or Brahma-Nirvana in Hinduism)Innate Knowledge (Irfan and fitra in Islam) Experience of one's true blissful nature (Samadhi or Svarupa-Avirbhava in Hinduism)According to Jesus, the Kingdom of God is within (or among) people,[3] is approached through understanding,[4] and entered through acceptance like a child,[5] spiritual rebirth,[6] and doing the will of God. (Ex Wikipedia)The Seventh Heaven is something I know nothing of, But it is in the Kabbalah; apparently, never heard of it in Christianity.

Jesus answered , "I have not a demon; but I honor my Father...."The Jews said, " You are not yet fifty years old, and you say you have seen Abraham? Jesus said to them truly truly I say to you before Abraham, I am...."."Who sinned that that man be born blind, he or his parents?"Elijah has come.... and they understood he spoke of John th Baptist,(Reincarnated after 300 years)Reincarnation was taught by the western Church until 553 AD.Can one see that the Mystic cannot be tied up with dogma.Now can one grasp how the intellect, can mull over the paradoxes twixt dogma and the written, to the point where one has to go so deep with the desire for the Truth, reaching for the Divine, to the point where you fear for your life by what you find, but cannot let go?Can one understand what I am writing about, do you think that I am a closet Christian ?I love the 'Divine Beloved'.BHAGAVAD GITA Ch:929. The same am I to all beings; to me there is none hateful or dear; but thosewho worship me with devotion are in me and I am also in them.

With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor

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"Lift up the self by the Self And do not let the self droop down. For the Self is the self's only friend And the self is the Self's only foe." - Sri Krishna (from The Bhagavad Gita)"Ben"

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My dear mikelove god and thats all u need.whats this fuss all about.ThanxRaja gurdasani---------------------Dear Sadhakas,Hare Krishna

In Bhagavad-Gita Lord Krishna explains as to who is a perfect devotee

" Mayy avesya mano ye mam, nitya ukta upasate sraddhaya parayopetas, te me yuktatama matah " ( Gita 12, 2 )

which means

"Those who fix their minds in me and are always engaged in worshipping Me withthe great transcendental faith are considered by me to be the most perfect"

Lord Krishna also described who is very dear to Him.

"advesta sarva bhutanam , maitra karuna eva ca, nirmamo nirahankarah,sama-dukha-sukhah kshami, santustah satatam yogi, yatatma dhruda niscayahmayyarpita -mano-buddhir,yo mad-bhaktah sa me priyah" (Gita 12,,13 and 14)

which means

" One who has no hatred towards any one,a friend to all, who has no ego,who is equal both in happiness and sorrow, who is always satisfied, self contolled, tolerant and who is engaged in devotional service with his mind and intelligence , fixed in me- such a devotee is very dear to Me."

Importance of devotional service is clearly stressed here. Pure devotional service with compassion towards every one is Bhakti Yoga.

" Yajnanam japa- yajnosmi " (Gita 10, 25) which means " Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names" (Japa)...chanting of the holy names " Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare, Hare Krishna Hare Krishna ,Krishna Krishna Hare Hare" is simple and pure

In this Kali Yuga, this chanting is highly recommended and it is very practical.

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu conducted this sankirtana (japa) yajna five hundred years ago.This is a direct path to attain the Lord.Let us chant and be peaceful and happy

Hare KrishnaPrasad.Iragavarapu, M.D--Shree HariRam Ram The response is more focused on Sadhaks then the Paths.... From Swamiji's teachings -A sadhak (seeker, aspirant) must get past dogmas and not have insistence on his own regarding any doctrines, opinions, philosophical ideas, religious sect or religious community that he belongs to. Rather he must act in accordance to their teachings. Insistent on opinions and philosophical ideas of his own religious sect, creates animosity with other sects. Thus he is unable to be open minded and free of biases and will be deprived of good learnings from all. Generally the limitations are our own understanding, not in them. Therefore if any of their actions are not understood by us, and appear flawed to us, then personally we must not pursue and act on those things. Simply speaking .... Paramatma is only One - though Names and Forms / Formless aspects may be different. There is no gain in any of this. Do not favor one view over another and have no differences. All this is a waste of time. Simply get engaged in God and God alone, as this birth is only for that purpose. Oh Lord, Oh Lord ! Pray that you do not get entangled in dogmas, doctrines, sects, philosophical ideas, Organizations, Groups etc. There is simply no gain in any of this - says Swamiji. Meera DasRam Ram

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PRIOR POSTING

Dear Gita Sadhak Bandhus,

In our humble opinion, it is not the common elements that are important but those that are particular. There are many things that are common in humans and animals. Can they, therefore, become the same, or be treated like the same on that account?

It was argued: "There is one God that is Christ", and Hindu says, "Survum Vasudeva Mayam". This is not commonalty and cannot prove similarity of the two.

The neighbour's wife, one's wife and daughter have many elements that are common. They are all females, have head, neck, feet, limbs and feminine organs which are common, besides many others. But, on that basis, can one be replaced by the other? Can the daughter or the neighbour's wife also become one's wife, act as such, or be treated as such?

Similarly, in our humble opinion (the manner in which understood) Brahm and Christian God are not the same. The latter resides in the seventh heavens, while Brahm is every where and in everything. How can the two be the same, therefore?

In Gita Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Eeshvarah sarva bhootaanaam hrid-deshe Arjuna tishtthati (18:61); meaning thereby, that Eeshvar dwells in the heart of all beings. Now, who else says that? Do Judaism, Islam and Christianity also say the same?

Then it was also said: � in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/ dogmatic/ progressive ways to liberation. But, how can there be ways to liberation the concept of it in various religions; when there is not even a talk of liberation or Moksha in them.

Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Yaanti deva-vrataa devaan, pitreen-yaanti pitri-vrataah/ bhootaani yaanti bhoot-ejyaa, yaanti mad-yaajino'pi maam// (9:25); meaning: MY votaries, My worshippers, reach Me, and those of the Devas, Pitris, and Bhutas reach them; not Me. Then it is unclear, how will worshippers of other reach Krishna then?

We have placed some of the doubts that have crossed into our mind when we read the above post and on account of which we think Sadhna on the basis of commonalty shall not lead to the destination we have chosen for ourselves as Gita Sadhaks. And, therefore, we should stick to the paths shown by the Scriptures and our great ancestors rather than devising or searching for new ones. Bhagawan Manu, the progenitor of human race, has taught us:

Yenaasya pitaro yaataa, yena yaataah pitaa-mahaah/

Tena yaayaat-sataam maargam, tena gachhan-na rishyate// 4:178

which means, follow in the footsteps of your fathers and grand-fathers, the path taken by your ancestors, the sat-purushaas. So doing, one will not meet any harm.

With apologies,

Dr. Ranjeet Singh

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This is my opinion .......

The Great Thinkers of the Past (GTPs) had a powerful sixth sence and intuition.They observed, felt, experienced in the Nature around, within lifeforms, withinmankind and within themselves something physical, they analysed it with theiracute intelligence and described it to the best of their abilities, knowledgeand language in the form of religious scriptures.

Now we we are more evolved in knowledge, information, means of observations, andresources of experience. We can as well feel the same physical sense andinterpret it with the help of scientific knowledge and information. We now havethe backing of experimental results and information. I feel, the Great Thinkersof the Present (GTPs again) should review the past scriptures, instead ofbelieving in them blindly, and correct them whereever needed.

I am aware of the fact that my views and assumptions will not be easily accepted...but I hope, to some individuals, it may be appealing.

....Gee Waman

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Shree Hari Ram Ram

Paramatma is Eternal, and Paramatma's message (Eternal Laws and Principles - Dharma) is also eternal and unchanging not perishable and limited by time, space, causation.

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

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PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

Christianity said the following: 1) That world is square in old testoment. Hindu says yes, as it has Chathur Yug 4 Yugas in a square depicted in Vishnu Puran. Quran of Muslims say the world in Char (Four) slots that is 4 Yugas. 2) Christians says NO rebirth or incarnation. Here incarnation is differant from birth. It is saying about Athuman (Holy Sprit) that has no birth. Sri Krishna says Athuman has NO death or births. 3) Christians say,(a) "Love thy Neighbour as thyself. (b) Do not cast your eyes on your neighbour` s wife. © Show the other cheek when slapped. (d)There is only One God that is Christ"". For (a) Survam Vasudeva Mayam (b) Kama-Lust when seeing somebody wife Ref Vishnu Puran © forgiveness (Sowlabiyam) lived Example Sri Ekanath Maharaj of recent (d) only one Paramathuma. Christians can note Whom is Christ often calls "Oh my father In Heavens" Hindus say God is formless and can attain any form. Muslims pray formless. Some Christians this as well as that.This is what Sri Krishna In Geetha has said to people "Moodha" (Ignorant).--- Not going in deep in scripts is cause. Jai Sri Krishna-----------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Brother Mike, right you are, some paths are more direct.Direct paths, as I understand them, bypass dogmas, as useful as they may be for some in initial stages. It is like bypasses/loops built around the city for those traveling beyond the city. In-city and out of city traffic get helped in this ways.The approach of Vedanta is direct Realization of who/what we are. Therefore, upon such Realization, all our actions come from this Truth of us, and not from not-knowing ourselves. Truth liberates, and ignorance, as much as we say is bliss, nevertheless, binds us. As you say in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/dogmatic/progressive ways to liberation.How do we get past dogmas? Again, as you say, seeing the commonality in them helps to a great extent to broaden our visions, so we can drop/bypass non-essentials at the time. In my experience, I see more and more common elements in all of them now than before, and if for some reasons, I see conflicting views, I resolve in one of two ways: Either I don't know/interpret in the context/spirit it should be, or it is not relevant at this time for me.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

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Shree Hari Ram Ram Sadhaks, we have lost some postings over the past couple of days. There seems to be so issues with and using Internet Explorer. SOmetimes it is difficult for us to recreate these, so if you find an important posting missing, please kindly send us reminder, with the posting details. Thank you, From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

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Re: Are Some Paths More Direct? How to Get Past Dogmas towards Common Ground?

-Shree Hari-

Dear Brethren,

What I have found is that the biggest stumbling block is dogma, itcan act as a block to progress. But if one steps around these blocks,driven by ones own insight, then yes one will arrive at the commonground, metaphorically the Christian will stand hand in hand withJain, Hindu, and Muslim etc, having also completed their windingpath.Simple example, reincarnation, from a scriptural and intuitive pointof view it must be. And yet of course the Church denies it.(In all probability some paths are more direct).

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

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NEW POSTING

Narain ! Narain !!

 

Blessed is this Forum to have pious soul like Catherine Anderson to be with it ! Let me sing the following bhajan in her honour ( this bhajan Shraddheya Swamiji Maharaj used to sing very fondly) :

 

NAATH THARE SHARAN PADI DAASI, O NAATH THARE CHARAN PADI DAASI !

MOYE KAR BHAV SAAGAR SE PAAR MITAADO JANAM MARAN PHAANSI !!

NAATH MAIN KASHTA BAHUT PAAYI ! O NAATH MAIN KASHTA BAHUT PAYEE !

 

BHATAK BHATAK CHAURASI JOONI, MINAKHA DEH PAAI !!

DUKH AB METO AVINAASHI ! O DUKH AB METO AVINAASHI !!

MOYE .......

 

NAATH MAIN PAAP BAHUT KEENA, O NAATH MAIN PAAP BAHUT KEENA !

SANSAARI BHOGO KI TRISHNA DUKH BAHUT DEENA !!

KAAMNA HAI SATYANAASHI ! O KAAMNA HAI SATYANAASHI !!

MOYE .......

 

NAATH MAIN BHAKTI NAHIN KEENI , O NATH MAIN BHAKTI NAHIN KEENI !!

JHOOTE BHOGO KI AASHA MAIN , UMAR HI KHO DEENI !!

KAAT DO DUKHON KI PHAANSI, O KAAT DO DUKHON KI PHAANSI !!

MOYE ......

 

NAATH AB SAB ASHA CHHOTI, O NAATH AB SAB AASHA CHHOTI !THAREN SHREE CHARANO RI BHAKTI SANJEEVAN BOOTI !!O Lord ! O Mere Naath !! I hereby surrender to you! I hereby fall at your pious feet ! Kindly release me now from this bondage of birth and death and make me cross this ocean !!

 

O Lord ! I suffered a lot ! O Lord ! I suffered a lot. After loitering for ages and eons in 84 lac wombs, I got this human birth. Now Please help me in cutting the snares of sorrow. O Lord ! I sinned, sinned and sinned ! These desires for worldly pleasures gave me a lot of pains. This desire is the root of all calamities , O Lord! Now help me Lord in getting relieved ! O Lord ! I could never be devoted in the past. The desires of happiness never let me do that. Now I am in your shelter.. Please O Lord take me ! O Lord NOW ALL HOPES ARE GONE ! NOW I HAVE REALISED THAT YOUR PIOUS FEET ARE THE ONLY MEDICINE FOR ME ! O LORD, PLEASE CUT THE CHAINS AND RELEASE ME FROM THIS OCEAN !!

 

Narain ! Narain !!

 

Naarad N Maharishi

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Shree Hari ram ram,

Gods Will be done.Dear blessed sadhaks as we are indeed blessed to have this group to express our tender love for our maker.Simple message of who are we? We are Gods only and only God is ours, there is nothing or no one else. We carry nothing into this world and we will carry nothing out of this world, blessed is Gods Name.This world is not ours, only God is ours cannot be repeated enough.Pranaam to you vyas nb how your words heal my spirit.Naught is greater than Bhagwaan and this world offers nothing but for learning only through our trials.Learnings of detachment is an important one, learnings of loving others when it is not always an easy task but all are a fragment of God so we serve others as humble sadhaks and i thank all of you for your kind consideration as it is above measure causing us to rise in love only.I thank this group and particularly sarvottamjee although through spirituality question that was answered so perfectly and thank him for patience with me on my persistent wanting to make him Guru and Swami but he patiently instructed me of being only Gods and only God is his.His answers so perfect that i insisted that he must be so but he is humble sadhak.Learning we are not our mind. intellect, ego and pain gives us humility to rely on my Bhagwaan, please do not ever let us forget you even for a moment.I bless Paramatma to my last breath and thank Him for all blessings He has bestowed on me and please to help me bless others through you my Father, my Gopa!God bless you Vyas To Mike yes God surrounds us as we close our eyes and go within to that quiet place of solace, balm and contentment.All in life i count as rubbish as compared to the Divine Love there is for God, no pearls, gold or rubys can compare.All are our teachers in Gods Play.When asking God for answers he supplies them at the right time, blessed be my Father.I pray for all my humble sadhaks around the world may God bless you my precious brothers and sisterscatherine

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Dear Sadhak,Only God is mine and I am God's. This is the only path -direct, effective and certain.Love, bhakti, gyaan comes from this acceptance.With Love,A SadhikaSadhna Karigar---------------------------- Hari Om

I must say that when I read Divine Catherine's message, I really got emotional and tears flowed ...! Sheer "Dukhalayam" is this world. No relationship however great that may be, can be equal to that of Jeeva and Jagdish. "Naught" ... "Naught" only can emerge out of this world which exists not.

But, Divine Sister, we should now thank those who brought us closer to our Real Father. This world is capable of being "Vasudev" if we become equanimous ( I know you know this)! Old memories are in mind and not in us. We are eternal. Pains had divinity hidden in them. A simple focus on that Divine hidden in those pains must convert this Dukhalayam into Vasudev. What do you say, Divine Sister? The time has come! I know you have already seen Divine hand in them ! Now bless them! Bless Law of Karma! Your blessing them will acquit them of their bondages! Bless us ! O Divine ! You can never forget Paramatma ! NEVER !

Pranaams to you, Dear Divine Sister!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B -------------------------------

- Shree Hari -

Dear Catherine,

Dear GOD, may He bless you. Sometimes souls have been exposed to the path ofFire, that Fire can burn away the dross, leaving behind the Gold. Yes I dounderstand the pain, and yet GOD's love can take away the hatreds, the wounds,the prejudges.Divine Grace is all around, but so many are blind to this Truth.Dear Naga Narayana ji, what can I say, you have reflected many of my thoughts,with much greater eloquence than I am able.A Christian mystic quoted Lord Buddha, "I point at the moon, and you look at myfinger", and made the comment, then people start to argue about the length andthe quality of the finger.A favorite saying of mine is, 'liturgy points, dogma blocks'.I could not tell anyone how to mould themselves into the groove, I once criedout in anguish, "What do I know Lord, what do I know".The only thing I know is I wanted to see as it were the light shining beyond thehorizon, in the terrain around are stumbling blocks, and yes if one movesthrough that terrain, one will get cut and bruised, and will trip and fall. Butone makes progress, how else can one make progress?A dear soul, my Guide my Teacher, once said to me, "Mike no religion will everhold you".That's it, care not for how you are treated, the fear mongers, the bombasticjudges of your soul.Care only for 'The Divine Beloved'.

With Respect and Divine Love.

Mike (K)

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PRIOR POSTING

Dearest brothers and sisters, Ram Ram to all of these devotees. Being khogi (seeker) as until attaining equanimity cannot be considered as devotee as I do not want to stumble others by being calling myself deserved when I am the least of you my sadhaks.yes it is as Mike Keenor said that we are all brothers and sisters being a fragment of God so why should we war or be worldly? This world offers naught to us, but God offers all we need.Love encompasses all which is Paramaatma. and but to sit back and watch Gods Play of justice which comes just at the right time. I have lived long enough to see there is always fairness brought about by Him, it was there although with quiet contemplation and much prayer will mention during dads many beatings to me and even one time of knocking out teeth that I learned at a young age who was my true Father and would never call anyone but Father God my Father although always having respect for elders, it was there when as a baby when he knocked me out of high chair and my breath went out of my body that it was not my time to go yet and God had special need for me which was in nursing the dying.Nor when he beat me for not going to sleep immediately standing over my bed with continual slaps. i tried to pretend to sleep so he would not continue with these beatings all of night... and they made me to go to church which was my only outlett at the time.I felt Gods spirit at young age and then now am blessed with learning this wonderful belief system where as Bhoji,doing smoking, drinking, parties, the best of clothes turned away from all this,where someone that was precious sadhak prayed and i studied for one year but God took away all sensual desires, all mine, myself, me to where there is only Bagwaan and i am so lost as i only know 1 prayer of please never let me forget you and only God is mine, there is noone else, it is my prayer that i progress although mind is stubborn and hard to tame but desires i do not have need of anything in this world but Vasudev Sarvam khogi(seeker catherine)

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Are Some Paths More Direct? How to Get Past Dogmas towards Common Ground?

Dear Mike! You are a serious seeker in practice and you should tell us how to mould ourselves into the groove!! Anyway, let me chatter to purge the urge from within.

As I see it, there CANNOT BE ANY PATH to attain The Truth for the simple reason that THAT has no characteristics to be identified with in terms time, space, matter, action, thought, experience, etc. Every spiritual path is designed to wash away the ignorance one hoards within "to be THAT" rather than seeking IT. The ignorance collected within varies from person to person depending on the circumstantial and personal conditioning over one's life (even lives, if you believe in multiple births!). Terefore, seeking (paths) can never be unique as the seekers can never be the same.

However, The Target for all activities (whether we term it spiritual or not) has to be unique though the seeker may not be aware of it initially. Everyone IS invariably seeking THE SAME TRUTH knowingly or unknowingly, purposefully or aimlessly, in spirit or in indifference, in acceptance or in denial. If the spiritual path (wherein the seeker pro-actively seeks to be The Truth) does not reveal that uniqueness in the sought, there is a flaw in the path - it is seeker's responsibility to perpetually correct oneself against this error.

Dogmas exist because of the importance we give to the path rather than its target. If the seeker hangs on to the process itself rather than sprinting toward the sought, dogmas are created as if the sought itself could be a variant! In my opinion, the correction should be triggered as soon as duality reveals in the sought. Then, every path is sure to attain THE SAME TRUTH without fail.

|| Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishThaa; vedaah sarvaangaani; satyamaayatanam ||

To keep the path perpetually free of all the dogmas, the seeker should be vigilant, discriminant and proactive to tap all the resources of knowledge from around as well as from within not letting one's eyes off The Truth even for a second perging away all the misonomers that could come across perpetually.

The essence of the teachings our great seers are lost over a period of time turning the same into dogmas in our fragmented minds. It is like the dust collecting on the mirror. We need detergents to clean the same to see ourselves in clarity. Over time, there have been agents producing the detergents to cleanse the mirror for self-retrospection - Vyaasa, Buddha, Mahaaveera, ZaratushTra, Confuscious, Jesus, Shankara, Paigambar, Ramana, Ram Sukhdas, ... innumerable to count. We are so lucky to have them all from their gospels, we are so lucky to witness their wisdom ... but, why these dogmas bother us almost always?! Our lopsided intelligence! Instead of cleaning the mirror with the lotion they benevolently gave us, we safegaurd the lotion as if the lotion is ultimate ... instead of respecting The Truth, we adore the lotion, we are infatuated with their producer, we develop identity with the brand of the lotion and fight for safegaurding the brand instead of seeking The Truth. In worshiping the same Gurus, we forget their actual teachings and turn into dogmatic and fractional fanatism.

What we need is to salute the producer, respect the lotion and apply the same to cleanse our mirrors (consciousness) to seek ourselves. If we do that, there cannot be any dogma in any path. The dogma is created as we release our ego into the very seeking which collects identities even in spiritual seeking. The identities create fractures in the knowledge. Fractured intellect is the root cause for all the dogmas. Nothing wrong with the ego - collecting identities is its nature. What is wrong is in the one who releases the same knowingly or unknowingly.

Are Some Paths More Direct? How can any path have any relative quality when all originates from, runs through and enters into THE SAME TRUTH on one hand; and has no relevance to each other from personal and circumstantial points of view on the other hand?! There can be comparison neither beteen an apple and itself nor between an apple and an orange - however you look at it. The very notion of relativity is the dogma. Whichever path does not generate additional confusion within, is the most direct path - "Na buddhibhedam janayet". Whatever is closest to one's nature is the most direct path - "Shreyaan svadharmo vigunah paradharmaat svanushThitaat". Every being automatically chooses a path that is closest to its nature and hence everything anything is ever treading is verily as direct as anything else that anybody else could be treading. Bhagavaan Vyaasa says, just seek and never preach. I think, that is the lesson we should all learn from.

How to Get Past Dogmas towards Common Ground? "Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishThaa, vedaah sarvaangaani, SATYAMAAYATANAM".

Hope that helps.

Respects.

Naga Narayana-------------------------

Hari Om

You are right, Rajaji. Humility is in itself a virtue (BG 16:1/2) ! Also, reading Divine Sister Catherine is in itself is Divine. Coming to Muslim Brethren a sadhak told me recently that "Khuda" means .... Khud ( You , yourself) ... Aa (Come) ! He told how faithfuls spread cloth wherever they are, at appointed hours of Namaaj and remember Him. What a power Faith has !! In fact all religions of world are based on "faith" ( Gita calls it 'manyate'/ 'shraddha' ) . Swamiji, inter alia, also called that "sveekruti" (acceptance). Christians : Faith ! Accept , O Divine Sadhaks.... Have Faith... Belief .... Knowledge has to follow.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B --------Good Contribution. Jayantilal Shah

---------------------------Dear Soul,May God Bless You

Yes, some paths are direct and instant. Shri Gita is direct dialogue between God and Human Being. Just go through Chapter 12 and follow it sincerely. The path will come to you, you will not be in search of path. Incarnation, Reincarnation are scientifically true and if one does not believe in it, no matter. Things being discovered of recent such as reverence for Earth, Trees, Air etc. these have been respected and worshipped in Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma) from the beginning. Again, this philosophies are not limited to a particular group/sect, but applicable globally, that is why Hindu Dharma does not believe in conversion. READ SHRI GITA AND BE HAPPY.

Mahesh Sharma

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Dear Mike,When Superiority turns to Humility then love arises.Love and only love is direct pathThanxRaja Gurdasani--------------------------

DEAREST SADHAKS,Wonderful topic and religions per se are known by their fruits. In all faiths they teach we should love our brothers as our self. Is it done?Is it practiced? One is seen by what is shown, are there gossipers amongst them and all is attributed to love or lack thereof? The underlining theme is love.If you have love amongst yourselves then the law is accomplished.All teachings are fundamentally the same if previewed with depth.I have met very spiritual Christians following God through Gods Son who did the work of his Father preaching and always pointing towards the way the truth and the life, i have seen wonderful Muslims happy in their faith both men and women happy in praising Allah, and Hindus are such peaceful loving that give such precious gems of what is necessary for life so if followed peace will ensue. Khogi Catherine

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Dear Catherine, We were curious as to what Khogi stands for? Is it Kho gayi? Lost in Love! Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

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Time and again questions pops in my head: Why do I want to know (realize ) God? Is he Fair Or Merciful? How can he be both? The answer that I can not question is: I want to know because I love Him. Him and this UNIVERSE as Him. He is Fair (Actions have Reactions; Choices have consequences) And he is Merciful, so when I know Him Fully that is Accept Him as Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnopotent, I know my material sorrounding is from my Karma but the inner peace granted to me is his Grace.

For me that is where any religion should lead. And most of my Friends, nomatter what religion they practice accept that.

Hemendra Parikh

------------------------Dear Sadhak-insight My feeling is that one should not concern themselves whether others / church believes or not in something. The reincarnation principle is a universal truth and hence we should believe and act accordingly, Truly yours S S Bhatt--------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Understanding the wisdom/rules of life is the key

Happiness is the key value and everything else gets derived from this value.....It is very scientific....

It is not about christian, muslim, hindu........or any other label etc.....It is about truth, it is about our rules applicable to us, It is about the research world over on the wisdom of life....for centuries....In India too this happened vigorously and results were amazing..... Religions/labels are based the truth of life and not the vice-a-versa.....

Need today is to integrate these learnings and systematically make them available to the people especially to children without a label....like any other subject we teach....like maths, physics, chemistry, medicine....do we worry about the muslim, hindu, christian labels....We all need to get out of these labels and go to the basics...if you really want to see yourself happy and if you really want to see the world happy....Sushil Jain

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My understanding is that the Abrahamic religions is more COMMAND/ORDER based, that is why they are more orderly.They all stress one path- faith/obedience. Disobedience is the sin.Thus, they don't dwell on re-birth. That concept is irrelevant to them, because they want you to get it right in this life or be lost for ever.

As opposed to it, we have countless opportunities to work at our own pace. Thus, re-birthbecomes significant. In our system, it can happen in split of a second or in eons, it is up tous. All paths are fine, all paths are true (sort of an oxymoron, that is why at the end, in most arguments with Christians and Muslims, most Hindus look like fools!), etc. This is quite different from One life, one chance- if you do not follow the order, you eternally burn in hell. Just like a police or even a loving mother. Both have to be strict to ensure their message is followed.Jainism & Buddhism also relatively more orderly than Hinduism (sanatana Dharma).Because they also stress on one path-knowledge/reasoning. However, they also believe in re-birth and innumerable opportunities.As we know, it is the Abrahamic religions that call the shots in this world.They are prepared, proactive (within the limits, like Judaism does not seek converts);Hinduism may be pre-pro active (as it has thought of all possibilities for all times), but what I have seen is that Hindus are only reactive. Even the number of Hindus in the world is probably not more than one or at the most two! Because, that is purely for census and for Missionariesand Mullahs to round us up. As many Hindus are that many Hinduism is!

Koti Sreekrishna

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PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadaks,There is line in Bible, ""Empty they self I shall fill it"". This same thing Bagavan in Geetha has said. Contemplate.Once Sadaks who took to sanyasin sitting inside there hut were arguing about a boulder outside the hut, as the stone boulder was Granite or Not. A saint passing by hearing this argument said to them, "" You sadaks please tell me whether the stone inside or outside"". What was the saint saying?Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan.---------

Namaste! Dear Sadhakas!My humble and respectful response to our Brother Dr Ranjeet Singh is as follows:If we can see commonality among various religious practices, we can be moreunderstanding and respectful of other traditions and hence can live peacefullywhile pursuing our own path. Our paths are generally determined by prevailingreligious practices of the place and time into which we are born. So when we seecommonality, it doesn't mean we give up what appeals to us easily. It is theappreciation of other paths that is stressed here in our comments.Life is One, Truth is One, various are Its expressions all lovely and beautiful!However, if we concentrate on differences, we are likely to be defensive andfight for wrong reasons!

What is common among human relationship is Love which when recognized as themost important element, lets us play appropriate roles as men and women. Love isIntelligence that knows the differences in relationships. Then gender,nationality, race, don't seem to matter! If Love is lacking then only thesebecome issues.

In my understanding there are common elements between non-dual teaching ofVedanta, Zen-Buddhism, Sufi aspects in Islam, Hasidic teachings(I think it is)of Judaism, Taoism, Contemplative Christianity. It is just heartening to knowsuch is the case.� Why emphasize differences?

Jesus never claimed to be God, he is the son of God. He had Realized Self. He isChrist-Consciousness. Bypassing the dogmas, we can feel/experience God, theSpirit according to Bible, is like Supreme Consciousness, Brahman! God is justrepresentation of Oneness, not located at a place. We should not go by whatwords are used because it depends on the context and the audiences.The beautiful aspects of Christianity are service to all with devotion, charity,and sacrifice for fellow human beings. Such qualities are to be admired, ratherthan saying they don't have concept of liberation.

When Krishna addresses Him as "Me" in Gita, it means Supreme Consciousness onlyspeaking through Historical figure Krishna in Human form. This means all canworship Him in whatever forms they worship with this Understanding in their ownways.

Finally we are not reinventing new paths, we are stressing the importance ofseeing the underlying commonality across all religious practices once the dogmasare seen for what they are and bypassed! It is inspiring to know mankindeverywhere else have also thought about the same Truth and expressed in theirown language and circumstances! We are just lucky to have Vedas where we are asmuch as they are to have theirs!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

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-Shree Hari-

Dear Dr. Ranjeet Singh, It was argued: "There is one God that is Christ", sorry absolute nonsense, and by they way I will show by your arguments my point is valid. Christ kept referring to His Father, and said he could do nothing without His Father, he surrendered to His Fathers will, even when he thought he had been abandoned. Jesus said also, Father forgive them for they ...", he did not say "I forgive you". The nature of Jesus was not taken by Christianity from the bible, but spun by Greeko/Roman neo Pagans.See ex Wikipedia 'Between 325 and 681, Christians theologically articulated and refined their view of the nature of Jesus by a series of SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS' THUS THE DOGMA. I will add that all Christian festivals are thinly disguised Pagan festivals. Reference to Moksha, Jesus said"The Kingdom of GOD is not coming with signs to be observed ....fore the kingdom is in the mids of you. Also, "The kingdom has come but you see it not". Also I have quoted before the death of Ego, surrendering ones life,.. Read Julian of Norwich insights of of the 'Divine Indwelling'(SELF), I posted just recently. You are confusing, the Mystic with the Fundamentalist, that was the point in my comment. By the way why do I read Sadhaks refer to Lord Krishna as Bhagavan. "As Men come to me...." I could debate and argue this further, but......?

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike (Keenor).

---------------------------Pranaams. According to the Dictionary; Dogma is:1. a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.2. a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.3. prescribed doctrine: political dogma.4. a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle. In belief system--Sanatana Dharma, we have the freedom/right to interact with Bhagwaan however He inspires us to. Meaning that how we feel about Bhagwaan has a relation to how He(She) wants us to. Ours is not manmade religion with --specific rules. such as--you have to pray so many times a day,fast on certain days or else you must give a percentage of your earnings etc. Concepts of Bhakti and Prema are beautifully explored in messages of Bhagwaan. Fear is not a concept created by Bhagwaan rather it is Love of God.The problem is that some Sampradayas too have made up rules and this is what causes problems in Sanatana Dharma. Eg, some say that The Lord will not accept food that has onions and garlic. etc. Rules and more rules which sometime scare people away. We have seen from the Kathas of many Bhaktas that there is no boundary between The Lord and His Devotee--He accepted basi fruit as Sri Rama. People use isolated verses from Scriptures to create Dogma in Sanatana Dharma and we must be wary of this. Dogma scares people away from The Divine while Sanatana Dharma is the eternal natural path to Union with The Divine. We get pass Dogma we reach The Divine faster. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)

 

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PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

Dear Dr. Ranjeet Singh,

I am not sure if you are comparing people of other faiths along with animals, 'no chance of Moksha, not in this life any way'.

Mysticism (as difined in the Wikipedia).

Nullification and absorption within God's Infinite Light (Chassidic schools of Judaism)Complete detachment from the world (Kaivalya in some schools of Hinduism, including Sankhya and Yoga; Jhana in Buddhism)Liberation from the cycles of Karma (Moksha in Jainism and Hinduism, Nirvana In Buddhism)Deep intrinsic connection to the world (Satori in Mahayana Buddhism, Te in Taoism)Union with God (Henosis in Neoplatonism and Theosis in Christianity, Brahma-Prapti or Brahma-Nirvana in Hinduism)Innate Knowledge (Irfan and fitra in Islam) Experience of one's true blissful nature (Samadhi or Svarupa-Avirbhava in Hinduism)According to Jesus, the Kingdom of God is within (or among) people,[3] is approached through understanding,[4] and entered through acceptance like a child,[5] spiritual rebirth,[6] and doing the will of God. (Ex Wikipedia)The Seventh Heaven is something I know nothing of, But it is in the Kabbalah; apparently, never heard of it in Christianity.

Jesus answered , "I have not a demon; but I honor my Father...."The Jews said, " You are not yet fifty years old, and you say you have seen Abraham? Jesus said to them truly truly I say to you before Abraham, I am...."."Who sinned that that man be born blind, he or his parents?"Elijah has come.... and they understood he spoke of John th Baptist,(Reincarnated after 300 years)Reincarnation was taught by the western Church until 553 AD.Can one see that the Mystic cannot be tied up with dogma.Now can one grasp how the intellect, can mull over the paradoxes twixt dogma and the written, to the point where one has to go so deep with the desire for the Truth, reaching for the Divine, to the point where you fear for your life by what you find, but cannot let go?Can one understand what I am writing about, do you think that I am a closet Christian ?I love the 'Divine Beloved'.BHAGAVAD GITA Ch:929. The same am I to all beings; to me there is none hateful or dear; but thosewho worship me with devotion are in me and I am also in them.

With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor

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"Lift up the self by the Self And do not let the self droop down. For the Self is the self's only friend And the self is the Self's only foe." - Sri Krishna (from The Bhagavad Gita)"Ben"

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My dear mikelove god and thats all u need.whats this fuss all about.ThanxRaja gurdasani---------------------Dear Sadhakas,Hare Krishna

In Bhagavad-Gita Lord Krishna explains as to who is a perfect devotee

" Mayy avesya mano ye mam, nitya ukta upasate sraddhaya parayopetas, te me yuktatama matah " ( Gita 12, 2 )

which means

"Those who fix their minds in me and are always engaged in worshipping Me withthe great transcendental faith are considered by me to be the most perfect"

Lord Krishna also described who is very dear to Him.

"advesta sarva bhutanam , maitra karuna eva ca, nirmamo nirahankarah,sama-dukha-sukhah kshami, santustah satatam yogi, yatatma dhruda niscayahmayyarpita -mano-buddhir,yo mad-bhaktah sa me priyah" (Gita 12,,13 and 14)

which means

" One who has no hatred towards any one,a friend to all, who has no ego,who is equal both in happiness and sorrow, who is always satisfied, self contolled, tolerant and who is engaged in devotional service with his mind and intelligence , fixed in me- such a devotee is very dear to Me."

Importance of devotional service is clearly stressed here. Pure devotional service with compassion towards every one is Bhakti Yoga.

" Yajnanam japa- yajnosmi " (Gita 10, 25) which means " Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names" (Japa)...chanting of the holy names " Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare, Hare Krishna Hare Krishna ,Krishna Krishna Hare Hare" is simple and pure

In this Kali Yuga, this chanting is highly recommended and it is very practical.

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu conducted this sankirtana (japa) yajna five hundred years ago.This is a direct path to attain the Lord.Let us chant and be peaceful and happy

Hare KrishnaPrasad.Iragavarapu, M.D--Shree HariRam Ram The response is more focused on Sadhaks then the Paths.... From Swamiji's teachings -A sadhak (seeker, aspirant) must get past dogmas and not have insistence on his own regarding any doctrines, opinions, philosophical ideas, religious sect or religious community that he belongs to. Rather he must act in accordance to their teachings. Insistent on opinions and philosophical ideas of his own religious sect, creates animosity with other sects. Thus he is unable to be open minded and free of biases and will be deprived of good learnings from all. Generally the limitations are our own understanding, not in them. Therefore if any of their actions are not understood by us, and appear flawed to us, then personally we must not pursue and act on those things. Simply speaking .... Paramatma is only One - though Names and Forms / Formless aspects may be different. There is no gain in any of this. Do not favor one view over another and have no differences. All this is a waste of time. Simply get engaged in God and God alone, as this birth is only for that purpose. Oh Lord, Oh Lord ! Pray that you do not get entangled in dogmas, doctrines, sects, philosophical ideas, Organizations, Groups etc. There is simply no gain in any of this - says Swamiji. Meera DasRam Ram

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PRIOR POSTING

Dear Gita Sadhak Bandhus,

In our humble opinion, it is not the common elements that are important but those that are particular. There are many things that are common in humans and animals. Can they, therefore, become the same, or be treated like the same on that account?

It was argued: "There is one God that is Christ", and Hindu says, "Survum Vasudeva Mayam". This is not commonalty and cannot prove similarity of the two.

The neighbour's wife, one's wife and daughter have many elements that are common. They are all females, have head, neck, feet, limbs and feminine organs which are common, besides many others. But, on that basis, can one be replaced by the other? Can the daughter or the neighbour's wife also become one's wife, act as such, or be treated as such?

Similarly, in our humble opinion (the manner in which understood) Brahm and Christian God are not the same. The latter resides in the seventh heavens, while Brahm is every where and in everything. How can the two be the same, therefore?

In Gita Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Eeshvarah sarva bhootaanaam hrid-deshe Arjuna tishtthati (18:61); meaning thereby, that Eeshvar dwells in the heart of all beings. Now, who else says that? Do Judaism, Islam and Christianity also say the same?

Then it was also said: � in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/ dogmatic/ progressive ways to liberation. But, how can there be ways to liberation the concept of it in various religions; when there is not even a talk of liberation or Moksha in them.

Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Yaanti deva-vrataa devaan, pitreen-yaanti pitri-vrataah/ bhootaani yaanti bhoot-ejyaa, yaanti mad-yaajino'pi maam// (9:25); meaning: MY votaries, My worshippers, reach Me, and those of the Devas, Pitris, and Bhutas reach them; not Me. Then it is unclear, how will worshippers of other reach Krishna then?

We have placed some of the doubts that have crossed into our mind when we read the above post and on account of which we think Sadhna on the basis of commonalty shall not lead to the destination we have chosen for ourselves as Gita Sadhaks. And, therefore, we should stick to the paths shown by the Scriptures and our great ancestors rather than devising or searching for new ones. Bhagawan Manu, the progenitor of human race, has taught us:

Yenaasya pitaro yaataa, yena yaataah pitaa-mahaah/

Tena yaayaat-sataam maargam, tena gachhan-na rishyate// 4:178

which means, follow in the footsteps of your fathers and grand-fathers, the path taken by your ancestors, the sat-purushaas. So doing, one will not meet any harm.

With apologies,

Dr. Ranjeet Singh

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This is my opinion .......

The Great Thinkers of the Past (GTPs) had a powerful sixth sence and intuition.They observed, felt, experienced in the Nature around, within lifeforms, withinmankind and within themselves something physical, they analysed it with theiracute intelligence and described it to the best of their abilities, knowledgeand language in the form of religious scriptures.

Now we we are more evolved in knowledge, information, means of observations, andresources of experience. We can as well feel the same physical sense andinterpret it with the help of scientific knowledge and information. We now havethe backing of experimental results and information. I feel, the Great Thinkersof the Present (GTPs again) should review the past scriptures, instead ofbelieving in them blindly, and correct them whereever needed.

I am aware of the fact that my views and assumptions will not be easily accepted...but I hope, to some individuals, it may be appealing.

....Gee Waman

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Shree Hari Ram Ram

Paramatma is Eternal, and Paramatma's message (Eternal Laws and Principles - Dharma) is also eternal and unchanging not perishable and limited by time, space, causation.

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

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PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

Christianity said the following: 1) That world is square in old testoment. Hindu says yes, as it has Chathur Yug 4 Yugas in a square depicted in Vishnu Puran. Quran of Muslims say the world in Char (Four) slots that is 4 Yugas. 2) Christians says NO rebirth or incarnation. Here incarnation is differant from birth. It is saying about Athuman (Holy Sprit) that has no birth. Sri Krishna says Athuman has NO death or births. 3) Christians say,(a) "Love thy Neighbour as thyself. (b) Do not cast your eyes on your neighbour` s wife. © Show the other cheek when slapped. (d)There is only One God that is Christ"". For (a) Survam Vasudeva Mayam (b) Kama-Lust when seeing somebody wife Ref Vishnu Puran © forgiveness (Sowlabiyam) lived Example Sri Ekanath Maharaj of recent (d) only one Paramathuma. Christians can note Whom is Christ often calls "Oh my father In Heavens" Hindus say God is formless and can attain any form. Muslims pray formless. Some Christians this as well as that.This is what Sri Krishna In Geetha has said to people "Moodha" (Ignorant).--- Not going in deep in scripts is cause. Jai Sri Krishna-----------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Brother Mike, right you are, some paths are more direct.Direct paths, as I understand them, bypass dogmas, as useful as they may be for some in initial stages. It is like bypasses/loops built around the city for those traveling beyond the city. In-city and out of city traffic get helped in this ways.The approach of Vedanta is direct Realization of who/what we are. Therefore, upon such Realization, all our actions come from this Truth of us, and not from not-knowing ourselves. Truth liberates, and ignorance, as much as we say is bliss, nevertheless, binds us. As you say in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/dogmatic/progressive ways to liberation.How do we get past dogmas? Again, as you say, seeing the commonality in them helps to a great extent to broaden our visions, so we can drop/bypass non-essentials at the time. In my experience, I see more and more common elements in all of them now than before, and if for some reasons, I see conflicting views, I resolve in one of two ways: Either I don't know/interpret in the context/spirit it should be, or it is not relevant at this time for me.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

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GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit the use to Sanskrit words and provide English wordbracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

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Shree Hari Ram RamSadhaks, we have lost some postings over the past couple of days. There seems to be so issues with and using Internet Explorer. SOmetimes it is difficult for us to recreate these, so if you find an important posting missing, please kindly send us reminder, with the posting details. Thank you, From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram ---Re: Are Some Paths More Direct? How to Get Past Dogmas towards Common Ground?-Shree Hari-Dear Brethren,What I have found is that the biggest stumbling block is dogma, itcan act as a block to progress. But if one steps around these blocks,driven by ones own insight, then yes one will arrive at the commonground, metaphorically the Christian will stand hand in hand withJain, Hindu, and Muslim etc, having also completed their windingpath.Simple example, reincarnation, from a scriptural and intuitive pointof view it must be. And yet of course the Church denies it.(In all probability some paths are more direct).With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor--------------------------NEW POSTINGHari OmIf in

spiriutual pursuits, Scriptures, there is one word which puts

everything to an end: It is LOVE ! Prem !! That LOVE arises out of

"mineness"! That LOVE ( call it Bhakti; Devotion) is the biggest

healer. It is the ULTIMATE ! It can't be fabricated. It evolves of its

own - out of "mineness" ! Hence - I am of God; Only God is mine ;

Nothing else is mine - this becomes the ULTIMATE sadhana ! Because this

establishes "mineness" of Jeeva with Jagdish ! This is not a fabricated

mineness - In fact this is TRUTH ! Who else is ours except God ? When

this mineness becomes "exclusive" ( that is- when it excludes all other

sorts of minenesses ) ..... LOVE springs forth .... Naturally,

automatically, effortlessly, ... And with that purpose of human birth

gets achieved... There is nothing beyond LOVE ! Paramatma is already

loving you ! Now you establish mineness with Him... Then see the world

! Oh ! Where are sorrows; where are pains ... There is only Him !

VASUDEV !!Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

 

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

This Divine Forum is indeed touching newer and newer heights. What a love for Paramatma emanates from the likes of Catherine Anderson. She has indeed set a standard for all of us.... Mere to Girdhar Gopal Doosaro na Koi ! Pure Divine simplicity. Congrats ! To Sarvottamji, you too !

 

Swami Rupesh Kumar

 

Radhey ! Radhey!!

 

It is always divine to see Swamiji's teachings sink in the souls

and sadhaks getting changed for ever and for better. His simple words:

I am of God , only God is mine, nothing else is mine have indeed been

"accepted" firmly by Sister Catherine and I agree with Brother Vyasji

that such acceptances are never forgotten. She is an example , a divine

example of what is "sadhak" and what actually is "sadhana" ! My

pranaams to her from the last core of my heart. We are proud of you. I

request Catherine to keep contributing to this Forum. Thanks !

Sarvottamji ! You became medium of divinity in the real sense of the

word. My pranaams to you.

 

Radhey ! Radhey !!

 

Nisha Chatterji -------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

 

Narain ! Narain !! Blessed is this Forum to have pious soul like Catherine Anderson to be with it ! Let me sing the following bhajan in her honour ( this bhajan Shraddheya Swamiji Maharaj used to sing very fondly) : NAATH THARE SHARAN PADI DAASI, O NAATH THARE CHARAN PADI DAASI !MOYE KAR BHAV SAAGAR SE PAAR MITAADO JANAM MARAN PHAANSI !!NAATH MAIN KASHTA BAHUT PAAYI ! O NAATH MAIN KASHTA BAHUT PAYEE ! BHATAK BHATAK CHAURASI JOONI, MINAKHA DEH PAAI !! DUKH AB METO AVINAASHI ! O DUKH AB METO AVINAASHI !!MOYE ....... NAATH MAIN PAAP BAHUT KEENA, O NAATH MAIN PAAP BAHUT KEENA !SANSAARI BHOGO KI TRISHNA DUKH BAHUT DEENA !!KAAMNA HAI SATYANAASHI ! O KAAMNA HAI SATYANAASHI !!MOYE ....... NAATH MAIN BHAKTI NAHIN KEENI , O NATH MAIN BHAKTI NAHIN KEENI !!JHOOTE BHOGO KI AASHA MAIN , UMAR HI KHO DEENI !!KAAT DO DUKHON KI PHAANSI, O KAAT DO DUKHON KI PHAANSI !!MOYE ...... NAATH AB SAB ASHA CHHOTI, O NAATH AB SAB AASHA CHHOTI !THAREN SHREE CHARANO RI BHAKTI SANJEEVAN BOOTI !!O Lord ! O Mere Naath !! I hereby surrender to you! I hereby fall at your pious feet ! Kindly release me now from this bondage of birth and death and make me cross this ocean !! O Lord ! I suffered a lot ! O Lord ! I suffered a lot. After loitering for ages and eons in 84 lac wombs, I got this human birth. Now Please help me in cutting the snares of sorrow. O Lord ! I sinned, sinned and sinned ! These desires for worldly pleasures gave me a lot of pains. This desire is the root of all calamities , O Lord! Now help me Lord in getting relieved ! O Lord ! I could never be devoted in the past. The desires of happiness never let me do that. Now I am in your shelter.. Please O Lord take me ! O Lord NOW ALL HOPES ARE GONE ! NOW I HAVE REALISED THAT YOUR PIOUS FEET ARE THE ONLY MEDICINE FOR ME ! O LORD, PLEASE CUT THE CHAINS AND RELEASE ME FROM THIS OCEAN !! Narain ! Narain !! Naarad N Maharishi----------------------Shree Hari ram ram,Gods Will be done.Dear blessed sadhaks as we are indeed blessed to have this group to express our tender love for our maker.Simple message of who are we? We are Gods only and only God is ours, there is nothing or no one else. We carry nothing into this world and we will carry nothing out of this world, blessed is Gods Name.This world is not ours, only God is ours cannot be repeated enough.Pranaam to you vyas nb how your words heal my spirit.Naught is greater than Bhagwaan and this world offers nothing but for learning only through our trials.Learnings of detachment is an important one, learnings of loving others when it is not always an easy task but all are a fragment of God so we serve others as humble sadhaks and i thank all of you for your kind consideration as it is above measure causing us to rise in love only.I thank this group and particularly sarvottamjee although through spirituality question that was answered so perfectly and thank him for patience with me on my persistent wanting to make him Guru and Swami but he patiently instructed me of being only Gods and only God is his.His answers so perfect that i insisted that he must be so but he is humble sadhak.Learning we are not our mind. intellect, ego and pain gives us humility to rely on my Bhagwaan, please do not ever let us forget you even for a moment.I bless Paramatma to my last breath and thank Him for all blessings He has bestowed on me and please to help me bless others through you my Father, my Gopa!God bless you VyasTo Mike yes God surrounds us as we close our eyes and go within to that quiet place of solace, balm and contentment.All in life i count as rubbish as compared to the Divine Love there is for God, no pearls, gold or rubys can compare.All are our teachers in Gods Play.When asking God for answers he supplies them at the right time, blessed be my Father.I pray for all my humble sadhaks around the world may God bless you my precious brothers and sisterscatherine----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadhak,Only God is mine and I am God's. This is the only path -direct, effective and certain.Love, bhakti, gyaan comes from this acceptance.With Love,A SadhikaSadhna Karigar---------------------------- Hari OmI must say that when I read Divine Catherine's message, I really got emotional and tears flowed ...! Sheer "Dukhalayam" is this world. No relationship however great that may be, can be equal to that of Jeeva and Jagdish. "Naught" ... "Naught" only can emerge out of this world which exists not.But, Divine Sister, we should now thank those who brought us closer to our Real Father. This world is capable of being "Vasudev" if we become equanimous ( I know you know this)! Old memories are in mind and not in us. We are eternal. Pains had divinity hidden in them. A simple focus on that Divine hidden in those pains must convert this Dukhalayam into Vasudev. What do you say, Divine Sister? The time has come! I know you have already seen Divine hand in them ! Now bless them! Bless Law of Karma! Your blessing them will acquit them of their bondages! Bless us ! O Divine ! You can never forget Paramatma ! NEVER !Pranaams to you, Dear Divine Sister!Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-------------------------------- Shree Hari -Dear Catherine,Dear GOD, may He bless you. Sometimes souls have been exposed to the path ofFire, that Fire can burn away the dross, leaving behind the Gold. Yes I dounderstand the pain, and yet GOD's love can take away the hatreds, the wounds,the prejudges.Divine Grace is all around, but so many are blind to this Truth.Dear Naga Narayana ji, what can I say, you have reflected many of my thoughts,with much greater eloquence than I am able.A Christian mystic quoted Lord Buddha, "I point at the moon, and you look at myfinger", and made the comment, then people start to argue about the length andthe quality of the finger.A favorite saying of mine is, 'liturgy points, dogma blocks'.I could not tell anyone how to mould themselves into the groove, I once criedout in anguish, "What do I know Lord, what do I know".The only thing I know is I wanted to see as it were the light shining beyond thehorizon, in the terrain around are stumbling blocks, and yes if one movesthrough that terrain, one will get cut and bruised, and will trip and fall. Butone makes progress, how else can one make progress?A dear soul, my Guide my Teacher, once said to me, "Mike no religion will everhold you".That's it, care not for how you are treated, the fear mongers, the bombasticjudges of your soul.Care only for 'The Divine Beloved'.With Respect and Divine Love.Mike (K)---PRIOR POSTINGDearest brothers and sisters, Ram Ram to all of these devotees. Being khogi (seeker) as until attaining equanimity cannot be considered as devotee as I do not want to stumble others by being calling myself deserved when I am the least of you my sadhaks.yes it is as Mike Keenor said that we are all brothers and sisters being a fragment of God so why should we war or be worldly? This world offers naught to us, but God offers all we need.Love encompasses all which is Paramaatma. and but to sit back and watch Gods Play of justice which comes just at the right time. I have lived long enough to see there is always fairness brought about by Him, it was there although with quiet contemplation and much prayer will mention during dads many beatings to me and even one time of knocking out teeth that I learned at a young age who was my true Father and would never call anyone but Father God my Father although always having respect for elders, it was there when as a baby when he knocked me out of high chair and my breath went out of my body that it was not my time to go yet and God had special need for me which was in nursing the dying.Nor when he beat me for not going to sleep immediately standing over my bed with continual slaps. i tried to pretend to sleep so he would not continue with these beatings all of night... and they made me to go to church which was my only outlett at the time.I felt Gods spirit at young age and then now am blessed with learning this wonderful belief system where as Bhoji,doing smoking, drinking, parties, the best of clothes turned away from all this,where someone that was precious sadhak prayed and i studied for one year but God took away all sensual desires, all mine, myself, me to where there is only Bagwaan and i am so lost as i only know 1 prayer of please never let me forget you and only God is mine, there is noone else, it is my prayer that i progress although mind is stubborn and hard to tame but desires i do not have need of anything in this world but Vasudev Sarvam khogi(seeker catherine)------------Are Some Paths More Direct? How to Get Past Dogmas towards Common Ground?Dear Mike! You are a serious seeker in practice and you should tell us how to mould ourselves into the groove!! Anyway, let me chatter to purge the urge from within.As I see it, there CANNOT BE ANY PATH to attain The Truth for the simple reason that THAT has no characteristics to be identified with in terms time, space, matter, action, thought, experience, etc. Every spiritual path is designed to wash away the ignorance one hoards within "to be THAT" rather than seeking IT. The ignorance collected within varies from person to person depending on the circumstantial and personal conditioning over one's life (even lives, if you believe in multiple births!). Terefore, seeking (paths) can never be unique as the seekers can never be the same.However, The Target for all activities (whether we term it spiritual or not) has to be unique though the seeker may not be aware of it initially. Everyone IS invariably seeking THE SAME TRUTH knowingly or unknowingly, purposefully or aimlessly, in spirit or in indifference, in acceptance or in denial. If the spiritual path (wherein the seeker pro-actively seeks to be The Truth) does not reveal that uniqueness in the sought, there is a flaw in the path - it is seeker's responsibility to perpetually correct oneself against this error.Dogmas exist because of the importance we give to the path rather than its target. If the seeker hangs on to the process itself rather than sprinting toward the sought, dogmas are created as if the sought itself could be a variant! In my opinion, the correction should be triggered as soon as duality reveals in the sought. Then, every path is sure to attain THE SAME TRUTH without fail.|| Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishThaa; vedaah sarvaangaani; satyamaayatanam ||To keep the path perpetually free of all the dogmas, the seeker should be vigilant, discriminant and proactive to tap all the resources of knowledge from around as well as from within not letting one's eyes off The Truth even for a second perging away all the misonomers that could come across perpetually.The essence of the teachings our great seers are lost over a period of time turning the same into dogmas in our fragmented minds. It is like the dust collecting on the mirror. We need detergents to clean the same to see ourselves in clarity. Over time, there have been agents producing the detergents to cleanse the mirror for self-retrospection - Vyaasa, Buddha, Mahaaveera, ZaratushTra, Confuscious, Jesus, Shankara, Paigambar, Ramana, Ram Sukhdas, ... innumerable to count. We are so lucky to have them all from their gospels, we are so lucky to witness their wisdom ... but, why these dogmas bother us almost always?! Our lopsided intelligence! Instead of cleaning the mirror with the lotion they benevolently gave us, we safegaurd the lotion as if the lotion is ultimate ... instead of respecting The Truth, we adore the lotion, we are infatuated with their producer, we develop identity with the brand of the lotion and fight for safegaurding the brand instead of seeking The Truth. In worshiping the same Gurus, we forget their actual teachings and turn into dogmatic and fractional fanatism. What we need is to salute the producer, respect the lotion and apply the same to cleanse our mirrors (consciousness) to seek ourselves. If we do that, there cannot be any dogma in any path. The dogma is created as we release our ego into the very seeking which collects identities even in spiritual seeking. The identities create fractures in the knowledge. Fractured intellect is the root cause for all the dogmas. Nothing wrong with the ego - collecting identities is its nature. What is wrong is in the one who releases the same knowingly or unknowingly.Are Some Paths More Direct? How can any path have any relative quality when all originates from, runs through and enters into THE SAME TRUTH on one hand; and has no relevance to each other from personal and circumstantial points of view on the other hand?! There can be comparison neither beteen an apple and itself nor between an apple and an orange - however you look at it. The very notion of relativity is the dogma. Whichever path does not generate additional confusion within, is the most direct path - "Na buddhibhedam janayet". Whatever is closest to one's nature is the most direct path - "Shreyaan svadharmo vigunah paradharmaat svanushThitaat". Every being automatically chooses a path that is closest to its nature and hence everything anything is ever treading is verily as direct as anything else that anybody else could be treading. Bhagavaan Vyaasa says, just seek and never preach. I think, that is the lesson we should all learn from.How to Get Past Dogmas towards Common Ground? "Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishThaa, vedaah sarvaangaani, SATYAMAAYATANAM".Hope that helps.Respects.Naga Narayana-------------------------Hari OmYou are right, Rajaji. Humility is in itself a virtue (BG 16:1/2) ! Also, reading Divine Sister Catherine is in itself is Divine. Coming to Muslim Brethren a sadhak told me recently that "Khuda" means .... Khud ( You , yourself) ... Aa (Come) ! He told how faithfuls spread cloth wherever they are, at appointed hours of Namaaj and remember Him. What a power Faith has !! In fact all religions of world are based on "faith" ( Gita calls it 'manyate'/ 'shraddha' ) . Swamiji, inter alia, also called that "sveekruti" (acceptance). Christians : Faith ! Accept , O Divine Sadhaks.... Have Faith... Belief .... Knowledge has to follow.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------Good Contribution.Jayantilal Shah---------------------------Dear Soul,May God Bless You Yes, some paths are direct and instant. Shri Gita is direct dialogue between God and Human Being. Just go through Chapter 12 and follow it sincerely. The path will come to you, you will not be in search of path. Incarnation, Reincarnation are scientifically true and if one does not believe in it, no matter. Things being discovered of recent such as reverence for Earth, Trees, Air etc. these have been respected and worshipped in Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma) from the beginning. Again, this philosophies are not limited to a particular group/sect, but applicable globally, that is why Hindu Dharma does not believe in conversion.READ SHRI GITA AND BE HAPPY.Mahesh Sharma---------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Mike,When Superiority turns to Humility then love arises.Love and only love is direct pathThanxRaja Gurdasani--------------------------DEAREST SADHAKS,Wonderful topic and religions per se are known by their fruits. In all faiths they teach we should love our brothers as our self. Is it done?Is it practiced? One is seen by what is shown, are there gossipers amongst them and all is attributed to love or lack thereof? The underlining theme is love.If you have love amongst yourselves then the law is accomplished.All teachings are fundamentally the same if previewed with depth.I have met very spiritual Christians following God through Gods Son who did the work of his Father preaching and always pointing towards the way the truth and the life, i have seen wonderful Muslims happy in their faith both men and women happy in praising Allah, and Hindus are such peaceful loving that give such precious gems of what is necessary for life so if followed peace will ensue. Khogi CatherineShree Hari Ram RamDear Catherine, We were curious as to what Khogi stands for? Is it Kho gayi? Lost in Love! Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram---Time and again questions pops in my head: Why do I want to know (realize ) God? Is he Fair Or Merciful? How can he be both? The answer that I can not question is: I want to know because I love Him. Him and this UNIVERSE as Him. He is Fair (Actions have Reactions; Choices have consequences) And he is Merciful, so when I know Him Fully that is Accept Him as Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnopotent, I know my material sorrounding is from my Karma but the inner peace granted to me is his Grace.For me that is where any religion should lead. And most of my Friends, nomatter what religion they practice accept that.Hemendra Parikh------------------------Dear Sadhak-insight My feeling is that one should not concern themselves whether others / church believes or not in something. The reincarnation principle is a universal truth and hence we should believe and act accordingly, Truly yours S S Bhatt--------------------------PRIOR POSTINGUnderstanding the wisdom/rules of life is the keyHappiness is the key value and everything else gets derived from this value.....It is very scientific....It is not about christian, muslim, hindu........or any other label etc.....It is about truth, it is about our rules applicable to us, It is about the research world over on the wisdom of life....for centuries....In India too this happened vigorously and results were amazing..... Religions/labels are based the truth of life and not the vice-a-versa.....Need today is to integrate these learnings and systematically make them available to the people especially to children without a label....like any other subject we teach....like maths, physics, chemistry, medicine....do we worry about the muslim, hindu, christian labels....We all need to get out of these labels and go to the basics...if you really want to see yourself happy and if you really want to see the world happy....Sushil Jain-------My understanding is that the Abrahamic religions is more COMMAND/ORDER based, that is why they are more orderly.They all stress one path- faith/obedience. Disobedience is the sin.Thus, they don't dwell on re-birth. That concept is irrelevant to them, because they want you to get it right in this life or be lost for ever.As opposed to it, we have countless opportunities to work at our own pace. Thus, re-birthbecomes significant. In our system, it can happen in split of a second or in eons, it is up tous. All paths are fine, all paths are true (sort of an oxymoron, that is why at the end, in most arguments with Christians and Muslims, most Hindus look like fools!), etc. This is quite different from One life, one chance- if you do not follow the order, you eternally burn in hell. Just like a police or even a loving mother. Both have to be strict to ensure their message is followed.Jainism & Buddhism also relatively more orderly than Hinduism (sanatana Dharma).Because they also stress on one path-knowledge/reasoning. However, they also believe in re-birth and innumerable opportunities.As we know, it is the Abrahamic religions that call the shots in this world.They are prepared, proactive (within the limits, like Judaism does not seek converts);Hinduism may be pre-pro active (as it has thought of all possibilities for all times), but what I have seen is that Hindus are only reactive. Even the number of Hindus in the world is probably not more than one or at the most two! Because, that is purely for census and for Missionariesand Mullahs to round us up. As many Hindus are that many Hinduism is!Koti Sreekrishna=================================PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadaks,There is line in Bible, ""Empty they self I shall fill it"". This same thing Bagavan in Geetha has said. Contemplate.Once Sadaks who took to sanyasin sitting inside there hut were arguing about a boulder outside the hut, as the stone boulder was Granite or Not. A saint passing by hearing this argument said to them, "" You sadaks please tell me whether the stone inside or outside"". What was the saint saying?Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan.---------Namaste! Dear Sadhakas!My humble and respectful response to our Brother Dr Ranjeet Singh is as follows:If we can see commonality among various religious practices, we can be moreunderstanding and respectful of other traditions and hence can live peacefullywhile pursuing our own path. Our paths are generally determined by prevailingreligious practices of the place and time into which we are born. So when we seecommonality, it doesn't mean we give up what appeals to us easily. It is theappreciation of other paths that is stressed here in our comments.Life is One, Truth is One, various are Its expressions all lovely and beautiful!However, if we concentrate on differences, we are likely to be defensive andfight for wrong reasons!What is common among human relationship is Love which when recognized as themost important element, lets us play appropriate roles as men and women. Love isIntelligence that knows the differences in relationships. Then gender,nationality, race, don't seem to matter! If Love is lacking then only thesebecome issues.In my understanding there are common elements between non-dual teaching ofVedanta, Zen-Buddhism, Sufi aspects in Islam, Hasidic teachings(I think it is)of Judaism, Taoism, Contemplative Christianity. It is just heartening to knowsuch is the case.� Why emphasize differences?Jesus never claimed to be God, he is the son of God. He had Realized Self. He isChrist-Consciousness. Bypassing the dogmas, we can feel/experience God, theSpirit according to Bible, is like Supreme Consciousness, Brahman! God is justrepresentation of Oneness, not located at a place. We should not go by whatwords are used because it depends on the context and the audiences.The beautiful aspects of Christianity are service to all with devotion, charity,and sacrifice for fellow human beings. Such qualities are to be admired, ratherthan saying they don't have concept of liberation.When Krishna addresses Him as "Me" in Gita, it means Supreme Consciousness onlyspeaking through Historical figure Krishna in Human form. This means all canworship Him in whatever forms they worship with this Understanding in their ownways.Finally we are not reinventing new paths, we are stressing the importance ofseeing the underlying commonality across all religious practices once the dogmasare seen for what they are and bypassed! It is inspiring to know mankindeverywhere else have also thought about the same Truth and expressed in theirown language and circumstances! We are just lucky to have Vedas where we are asmuch as they are to have theirs!Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt-----------Shree Hari-Dear Dr. Ranjeet Singh, It was argued: "There is one God that is Christ", sorry absolute nonsense, and by they way I will show by your arguments my point is valid. Christ kept referring to His Father, and said he could do nothing without His Father, he surrendered to His Fathers will, even when he thought he had been abandoned. Jesus said also, Father forgive them for they ...", he did not say "I forgive you". The nature of Jesus was not taken by Christianity from the bible, but spun by Greeko/Roman neo Pagans.See ex Wikipedia 'Between 325 and 681, Christians theologically articulated and refined their view of the nature of Jesus by a series of SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS' THUS THE DOGMA. I will add that all Christian festivals are thinly disguised Pagan festivals. Reference to Moksha, Jesus said"The Kingdom of GOD is not coming with signs to be observed ....fore the kingdom is in the mids of you. Also, "The kingdom has come but you see it not". Also I have quoted before the death of Ego, surrendering ones life,.. Read Julian of Norwich insights of of the 'Divine Indwelling'(SELF), I posted just recently. You are confusing, the Mystic with the Fundamentalist, that was the point in my comment. By the way why do I read Sadhaks refer to Lord Krishna as Bhagavan. "As Men come to me...." I could debate and argue this further, but......?With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor).---------------------------Pranaams. According to the Dictionary; Dogma is:1. a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.2. a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.3. prescribed doctrine: political dogma.4. a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle. In belief system--Sanatana Dharma, we have the freedom/right to interact with Bhagwaan however He inspires us to. Meaning that how we feel about Bhagwaan has a relation to how He(She) wants us to. Ours is not manmade religion with --specific rules. such as--you have to pray so many times a day,fast on certain days or else you must give a percentage of your earnings etc. Concepts of Bhakti and Prema are beautifully explored in messages of Bhagwaan. Fear is not a concept created by Bhagwaan rather it is Love of God.The problem is that some Sampradayas too have made up rules and this is what causes problems in Sanatana Dharma. Eg, some say that The Lord will not accept food that has onions and garlic. etc. Rules and more rules which sometime scare people away. We have seen from the Kathas of many Bhaktas that there is no boundary between The Lord and His Devotee--He accepted basi fruit as Sri Rama. People use isolated verses from Scriptures to create Dogma in Sanatana Dharma and we must be wary of this. Dogma scares people away from The Divine while Sanatana Dharma is the eternal natural path to Union with The Divine. We get pass Dogma we reach The Divine faster. Regards,NandaTAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) ---------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari-Dear Dr. Ranjeet Singh,I am not sure if you are comparing people of other faiths along with animals, 'no chance of Moksha, not in this life any way'.Mysticism (as difined in the Wikipedia).Nullification and absorption within God's Infinite Light (Chassidic schools of Judaism)Complete detachment from the world (Kaivalya in some schools of Hinduism, including Sankhya and Yoga; Jhana in Buddhism)Liberation from the cycles of Karma (Moksha in Jainism and Hinduism, Nirvana In Buddhism)Deep intrinsic connection to the world (Satori in Mahayana Buddhism, Te in Taoism)Union with God (Henosis in Neoplatonism and Theosis in Christianity, Brahma-Prapti or Brahma-Nirvana in Hinduism)Innate Knowledge (Irfan and fitra in Islam) Experience of one's true blissful nature (Samadhi or Svarupa-Avirbhava in Hinduism)According to Jesus, the Kingdom of God is within (or among) people,[3] is approached through understanding,[4] and entered through acceptance like a child,[5] spiritual rebirth,[6] and doing the will of God. (Ex Wikipedia)The Seventh Heaven is something I know nothing of, But it is in the Kabbalah; apparently, never heard of it in Christianity.Jesus answered , "I have not a demon; but I honor my Father...."The Jews said, " You are not yet fifty years old, and you say you have seen Abraham? Jesus said to them truly truly I say to you before Abraham, I am...."."Who sinned that that man be born blind, he or his parents?"Elijah has come.... and they understood he spoke of John th Baptist,(Reincarnated after 300 years)Reincarnation was taught by the western Church until 553 AD.Can one see that the Mystic cannot be tied up with dogma.Now can one grasp how the intellect, can mull over the paradoxes twixt dogma and the written, to the point where one has to go so deep with the desire for the Truth, reaching for the Divine, to the point where you fear for your life by what you find, but cannot let go?Can one understand what I am writing about, do you think that I am a closet Christian ?I love the 'Divine Beloved'.BHAGAVAD GITA Ch:929. The same am I to all beings; to me there is none hateful or dear; but thosewho worship me with devotion are in me and I am also in them.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor---"Lift up the self by the Self And do not let the self droop down. For the Self is the self's only friend And the self is the Self's only foe." - Sri Krishna (from The Bhagavad Gita)"Ben"---------------------My dear mikelove god and thats all u need.whats this fuss all about.ThanxRaja gurdasani---------------------Dear Sadhakas,Hare KrishnaIn Bhagavad-Gita Lord Krishna explains as to who is a perfect devotee" Mayy avesya mano ye mam, nitya ukta upasate sraddhaya parayopetas, te me yuktatama matah " ( Gita 12, 2 )which means"Those who fix their minds in me and are always engaged in worshipping Me withthe great transcendental faith are considered by me to be the most perfect"Lord Krishna also described who is very dear to Him."advesta sarva bhutanam , maitra karuna eva ca, nirmamo nirahankarah,sama-dukha-sukhah kshami, santustah satatam yogi, yatatma dhruda niscayahmayyarpita -mano-buddhir,yo mad-bhaktah sa me priyah" (Gita 12,,13 and 14)which means" One who has no hatred towards any one,a friend to all, who has no ego,who is equal both in happiness and sorrow, who is always satisfied, self contolled, tolerant and who is engaged in devotional service with his mind and intelligence , fixed in me- such a devotee is very dear to Me."Importance of devotional service is clearly stressed here. Pure devotional service with compassion towards every one is Bhakti Yoga." Yajnanam japa- yajnosmi " (Gita 10, 25) which means " Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names" (Japa)...chanting of the holy names " Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare, Hare Krishna Hare Krishna ,Krishna Krishna Hare Hare" is simple and pureIn this Kali Yuga, this chanting is highly recommended and it is very practical.Chaitanya Mahaprabhu conducted this sankirtana (japa) yajna five hundred years ago.This is a direct path to attain the Lord.Let us chant and be peaceful and happyHare KrishnaPrasad.Iragavarapu, M.D--Shree HariRam Ram The response is more focused on Sadhaks then the Paths.... From Swamiji's teachings -A sadhak (seeker, aspirant) must get past dogmas and not have insistence on his own regarding any doctrines, opinions, philosophical ideas, religious sect or religious community that he belongs to. Rather he must act in accordance to their teachings. Insistent on opinions and philosophical ideas of his own religious sect, creates animosity with other sects. Thus he is unable to be open minded and free of biases and will be deprived of good learnings from all. Generally the limitations are our own understanding, not in them. Therefore if any of their actions are not understood by us, and appear flawed to us, then personally we must not pursue and act on those things. Simply speaking .... Paramatma is only One - though Names and Forms / Formless aspects may be different. There is no gain in any of this. Do not favor one view over another and have no differences. All this is a waste of time. Simply get engaged in God and God alone, as this birth is only for that purpose. Oh Lord, Oh Lord ! Pray that you do not get entangled in dogmas, doctrines, sects, philosophical ideas, Organizations, Groups etc. There is simply no gain in any of this - says Swamiji. Meera DasRam Ram------ PRIOR POSTINGDear Gita Sadhak Bandhus,In our humble opinion, it is not the common elements that are important but those that are particular. There are many things that are common in humans and animals. Can they, therefore, become the same, or be treated like the same on that account?It was argued: "There is one God that is Christ", and Hindu says, "Survum Vasudeva Mayam". This is not commonalty and cannot prove similarity of the two.The neighbour's wife, one's wife and daughter have many elements that are common. They are all females, have head, neck, feet, limbs and feminine organs which are common, besides many others. But, on that basis, can one be replaced by the other? Can the daughter or the neighbour's wife also become one's wife, act as such, or be treated as such?Similarly, in our humble opinion (the manner in which understood) Brahm and Christian God are not the same. The latter resides in the seventh heavens, while Brahm is every where and in everything. How can the two be the same, therefore?In Gita Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Eeshvarah sarva bhootaanaam hrid-deshe Arjuna tishtthati (18:61); meaning thereby, that Eeshvar dwells in the heart of all beings. Now, who else says that? Do Judaism, Islam and Christianity also say the same?Then it was also said: � in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/ dogmatic/ progressive ways to liberation. But, how can there be ways to liberation the concept of it in various religions; when there is not even a talk of liberation or Moksha in them.Bhagawan Shri Krishna says: Yaanti deva-vrataa devaan, pitreen-yaanti pitri-vrataah/ bhootaani yaanti bhoot-ejyaa, yaanti mad-yaajino'pi maam// (9:25); meaning: MY votaries, My worshippers, reach Me, and those of the Devas, Pitris, and Bhutas reach them; not Me. Then it is unclear, how will worshippers of other reach Krishna then?We have placed some of the doubts that have crossed into our mind when we read the above post and on account of which we think Sadhna on the basis of commonalty shall not lead to the destination we have chosen for ourselves as Gita Sadhaks. And, therefore, we should stick to the paths shown by the Scriptures and our great ancestors rather than devising or searching for new ones. Bhagawan Manu, the progenitor of human race, has taught us:Yenaasya pitaro yaataa, yena yaataah pitaa-mahaah/Tena yaayaat-sataam maargam, tena gachhan-na rishyate// 4:178which means, follow in the footsteps of your fathers and grand-fathers, the path taken by your ancestors, the sat-purushaas. So doing, one will not meet any harm.With apologies,Dr. Ranjeet Singh--------------------------This is my opinion .......The Great Thinkers of the Past (GTPs) had a powerful sixth sence and intuition.They observed, felt, experienced in the Nature around, within lifeforms, withinmankind and within themselves something physical, they analysed it with theiracute intelligence and described it to the best of their abilities, knowledgeand language in the form of religious scriptures.Now we we are more evolved in knowledge, information, means of observations, andresources of experience. We can as well feel the same physical sense andinterpret it with the help of scientific knowledge and information. We now havethe backing of experimental results and information. I feel, the Great Thinkersof the Present (GTPs again) should review the past scriptures, instead ofbelieving in them blindly, and correct them whereever needed.I am aware of the fact that my views and assumptions will not be easily accepted...but I hope, to some individuals, it may be appealing....Gee Waman-----Shree Hari Ram RamParamatma is Eternal, and Paramatma's message (Eternal Laws and Principles - Dharma) is also eternal and unchanging not perishable and limited by time, space, causation.From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram ----------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadaks,Christianity said the following: 1) That world is square in old testoment. Hindu says yes, as it has Chathur Yug 4 Yugas in a square depicted in Vishnu Puran. Quran of Muslims say the world in Char (Four) slots that is 4 Yugas. 2) Christians says NO rebirth or incarnation. Here incarnation is differant from birth. It is saying about Athuman (Holy Sprit) that has no birth. Sri Krishna says Athuman has NO death or births. 3) Christians say,(a) "Love thy Neighbour as thyself. (b) Do not cast your eyes on your neighbour` s wife. © Show the other cheek when slapped. (d)There is only One God that is Christ"". For (a) Survam Vasudeva Mayam (b) Kama-Lust when seeing somebody wife Ref Vishnu Puran © forgiveness (Sowlabiyam) lived Example Sri Ekanath Maharaj of recent (d) only one Paramathuma. Christians can note Whom is Christ often calls "Oh my father In Heavens" Hindus say God is formless and can attain any form. Muslims pray formless. Some Christians this as well as that.This is what Sri Krishna In Geetha has said to people "Moodha" (Ignorant).--- Not going in deep in scripts is cause. Jai Sri Krishna-----------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Brother Mike, right you are, some paths are more direct.Direct paths, as I understand them, bypass dogmas, as useful as they may be for some in initial stages. It is like bypasses/loops built around the city for those traveling beyond the city. In-city and out of city traffic get helped in this ways.The approach of Vedanta is direct Realization of who/what we are. Therefore, upon such Realization, all our actions come from this Truth of us, and not from not-knowing ourselves. Truth liberates, and ignorance, as much as we say is bliss, nevertheless, binds us. As you say in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and in all religions, there are approaches more direct than traditional/dogmatic/progressive ways to liberation.How do we get past dogmas? Again, as you say, seeing the commonality in them helps to a great extent to broaden our visions, so we can drop/bypass non-essentials at the time. In my experience, I see more and more common elements in all of them now than before, and if for some reasons, I see conflicting views, I resolve in one of two ways: Either I don't know/interpret in the context/spirit it should be, or it is not relevant at this time for me.Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt-----------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit the use to Sanskrit words and provide English wordbracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - ---------------