A Question about Karmic Debt

April 20, 2009

Dear sadhaks,

I have been reading the posts on this forum with interest and gratitude. They

remind me of my beacon light every morning when I open my mailbox. Thank you to

all of you for making this forum what it is.

My question is about Karmic debt, which first came to my mind when I saw my

maternal grand-parents suffering at the hands of their sons and the doubt is

reinforced after reading a chain of posts initiated by Sophia ji (I hope she is

feeling better now ) where some of you gave a peek into your own personal

difficult times. Time and again, I have seen people refer to their earthly

problems as Karmic debt, which if I understand correctly is the accumulation of

negative points (lay woman's language) that we have earned by doing actions that

have violated somebody's domain in some way in the previous births. Assuming

that my premise is correct, I want to know:

-Going up the Karmic chain is it logically possible that all of us have a wrong

doing at our hands (in past lives) to explain our difficulties?

-There has to be somebody long ago who was the first sufferer (with no Karmic

debt) at hands of the first wrong doer? Why did that somebody (soul) choose to

undergo hardship in the physical world even without any Karmic debt?

- I want to know what my grand-parents got (by way of treatment), was it what

they deserved and my uncles are faultless? Are the so many new born babies who

get dumped in the dustbins/toilets paying for their wrong-doings and their

mother's are settling some old karmic scores? What about the girl who got

flogged? N the ones beheaded n stoned?

-If yes, why does it make me feel that if I really believe in this Karmic debt

theory then I will become uncompassionate and everything horrible will seem to

be fair?

-What should I tell my heart the next time I hear/see something very, very

unjust happening to somebody?

Much thanks,

Suveni

PS: Please excuse the imperfections in my question. If there is such thing as a

spiritual path/journey then I am one of those who have just begun looking in the

right direction not having taken a single baby step yet.

-----------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

It is recommended that you also read previous related discussion thread at:

1) An Unfavorable Situation - Is it bad karmas? Act of God? Other?

/message/1864

2) What is Karma ? It's Use & Importance ? What does Good and Bad Karma Lead

to?

/message/1444

3) Becoming Free from Karma Bondage - Actions, Impressions, Doership etc.

/message/2187

--------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, address

etc) or personalize message to particular person

7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modify

the posting.

8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. Limit the use to Sanskrit words and provide English word

bracketed.

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

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April 21, 2009

QUESTION SUMMARY - ON KARMIC DEBT (DETAILS BELOW)

1) Is it logically possible that all of us have a wrong doing at our hands (in past lives) to explain our difficulties?

2) There had to be somebody the first sufferer at the hands of first wrong doer. Why did that somebody (soul) choose to undergo hardship in the physical world even without any Karmic debt?

3) Whatever is received by sufferers is all deserving ? e.g. new born babies dumped

4) In lights of fair laws of karma, can one become incompassionate?

5) What should I tell my heart the next time I hear/see something very, veryunjust happening to somebody? (details of question... below)

Suveni

-

Priy sadhak,

Ans of ur Q is extensive,

I request U to please read SADHAK SANJIVNI BY SWAMIJI. It is really ultimate to satisfy ur Q.

Thanx

Raja Gurdasani

------

Namaste, Dear Sadhakas!Suveniji, first of all, when you see something unjust happening to somebody, tell your heart the following: Is it really unjust? if so, then can I intervene in this matter? If so, then you should try your best to undo unjust to that somebody. Regardless of karmic debt theory, one must give a fair try to help in such situations. Karma theory does not say to blame someone for suffering due to his/her past Karmas, absolutely not! What it says is that when bad things happen to an apparent individual himself/herself, then, say "ok it may be my past karms to have this problem now, but what matters now is how to resolve it satisfactorily, what can I do?" Such acceptance brings intelligence to resolve( Gita teaching). BE FREE of worries/fears, just ACT!Your grand father should say to himself this and see he can get help. it is definitely not wise to think of him as guilty of past karmas. You should, if you can help! Don't find faults with uncles either, instead, pray and ask God for help. Once you develop relationship with God, you will know how He acts as you, other people, situations to answer you!Besides, Karmic debt theory assumes that a person is doer of deeds that are performed through his/her body-mind. Find out: "is it true, am the doer of my actions?" Don't accept the answers based on some beliefs, conditioning etc, but inquire. You may have to get some help of a teacher/Swamiji or the likes here. Suppose you don't find any solid eveidence you are the doer, then drop this doership. Upon dropping the "doer", what basis karmas have to stand on? Individual's Karmas burn away along with the Karta-doer! By the way, "the doer" is "me-thought" in disguise, which in turn, disguised as desires, fears etc..Our individual actions are just one of many variables God-Nature uses to carry out actions. Really it is body-mind-intelligence-knowledge-skills that act, all given by God, but we mistake them for "me". If we use those in accordance with Gita, actions will liberate us form any bondage of karmas! Let us not ask about the first wrong doer/first sufferer etc. Even if you find the answer, it is not going to help resolve any problems in the present, the only thing that matters!Be free of Karmas with this knwoledge. You will know the relevance of Karmic debt then!Bottom line: karmas are imprints of human thoughts-feelings-emotions from the time immemorial left on the Consciousness which are carried from one generation to the next, evolving all the time. An individual can draw, modify, and put back his/her karmas into this ever-flowing stream of Karmas in the Ocean of Consciousness! This Ocean retains its purity even as it holds good and bad karmas of mankind, and initiates reincarnations when bad outweighs good, as Krishna, Rama, Christ and Sages and Saints across the globe. This is "yada yada hi dharmasya ......" BG Ch 4, 7.Namaskar........Pratap Bhatt

-----

Definitely those with good karmas in their previous births get rewarded and those with bad karmas get punished. Even in today's kaliyug one can see examples of people with bad karmas suffering in the end. But that does not mean that we should not help those sufferers by attributing their condition to bad karmas. By helping we will be getting good karmas for ourselves.

Hari Shanker Deo

--------

Dear sadhaks,

I have been reading the posts on this forum with interest and gratitude. Theyremind me of my beacon light every morning when I open my mailbox. Thank you toall of you for making this forum what it is.

My question is about Karmic debt, which first came to my mind when I saw mymaternal grand-parents suffering at the hands of their sons and the doubt isreinforced after reading a chain of posts initiated by Sophia ji (I hope she isfeeling better now ) where some of you gave a peek into your own personaldifficult times. Time and again, I have seen people refer to their earthlyproblems as Karmic debt, which if I understand correctly is the accumulation ofnegative points (lay woman's language) that we have earned by doing actions thathave violated somebody's domain in some way in the previous births. Assumingthat my premise is correct, I want to know:

-Going up the Karmic chain is it logically possible that all of us have a wrongdoing at our hands (in past lives) to explain our difficulties?

-There has to be somebody long ago who was the first sufferer (with no Karmicdebt) at hands of the first wrong doer? Why did that somebody (soul) choose toundergo hardship in the physical world even without any Karmic debt?

- I want to know what my grand-parents got (by way of treatment), was it whatthey deserved and my uncles are faultless? Are the so many new born babies whoget dumped in the dustbins/toilets paying for their wrong-doings and theirmother's are settling some old karmic scores? What about the girl who gotflogged? N the ones beheaded n stoned?

-If yes, why does it make me feel that if I really believe in this Karmic debttheory then I will become uncompassionate and everything horrible will seem tobe fair?

-What should I tell my heart the next time I hear/see something very, veryunjust happening to somebody?

Much thanks,

Suveni

PS: Please excuse the imperfections in my question. If there is such thing as aspiritual path/journey then I am one of those who have just begun looking in theright direction not having taken a single baby step yet.

-----------------------Shree Hari Ram RamIt is recommended that you also read previous related discussion thread at:

1) An Unfavorable Situation - Is it bad karmas? Act of God? Other?/message/1864

2) What is Karma ? It's Use & Importance ? What does Good and Bad Karma Leadto?/message/1444

3) Becoming Free from Karma Bondage - Actions, Impressions, Doership etc./message/2187

--------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit the use to Sanskrit words and provide English wordbracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

April 23, 2009

QUESTION SUMMARY - ON KARMIC DEBT (DETAILS BELOW)

1) Is it logically possible that all of us have a wrong doing at our hands (in past lives) to explain our difficulties?

2) There had to be somebody the first sufferer at the hands of first wrong doer. Why did that somebody (soul) choose to undergo hardship in the physical world even without any Karmic debt?

3) Whatever is received by sufferers is all deserving ? e.g. new born babies dumped

4) In lights of fair laws of karma, can one become incompassionate?

5) What should I tell my heart the next time I hear/see something very, veryunjust happening to somebody? (details of question... below)

Suveni

-----------

NEW QUESTION: Dear sirs, What is the difference between Prarabda and Sanchita Karmas? and how do we get rid of them. Kindly clarify.C.P.Srinivasan-

NEW POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!I want to add one point on Karmic Debt that were left out in previous post.Q: Whatever is received by sufferers is all deserving? e.g. new bornbabies dumped etc.... and are wrong-doers settling old karmic scores?The fact that we don't remember anything from past lives indicates thatGod-Intelligence Supreme wants us to start with a clean slate-another chance torealize our Immortality. Even if we are born with, say, bad tendencies-Vaasanascarried over from past lives or acquired in this life, we need to rise above it.This means knowing the cause of our suffering or wrong-doing doesn't relieve usfrom taking corrective actions in the NOW!When innocent babies are dumped, it is not at all relevant to ascertain babiesdeserve it or not based on past karmas etc. Suffering and wrong doing both haveto be addressed by human beings, and, they are doing it with criminal justicesystems, government, charitable organizations etc., even if they are notperfect. It is only God given intelligence put to use with good intentions buthuman abuses happen due to some of us acting as selfish individuals! This iswhere Gita and other scriptures everywhere come in to help, if only everyone ofus realize it and heed the teachings!Karmas are not physical actions, it is desires, motives, conditioning etc etcthat compels humans to act! In order for us to have evil actions, we have toconsider us as individuals to be able to compete against each other throughjealousy, envy, anger, greed, vanity, pride. These are rooted in one singleillness of our illusion of being "separate" individual! Suppose we were all ONE,WHOLE, humanity, then, of whom we may feel threatened to be jealous, angry,envious, greedy?Most of Ch 3 and 4 are devoted to emphasize life of freedom fromkarmas(doership/desires/attachments) while being engaged in very karmas as nonecan remain without doing actions. Very less emphasis is on past lives and itskarmic debts.Finally, if one knows many past lives, it only proves Immortality(Atman) takingon new garbs of mortality(mind-body) every time as it passes through differentlife experiences, Itself remaining Unborn to know it!Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt

--Suveni ji thankyou so very much for hoping i am well Karma is very complicated indeed it is rarely black and white,simplified. and no matter what we should always help wherever wheneverwe can as long as we are not being abused and victimized.if one cannotstep back and look at what is happening in a detached manner one muststep away. to continue to be victimized is deadly for that jiva and thefamily. to accept that it is ones karma so to speak isa very poorunderstanding of the term and relegates many horrific situations thatcan be helped to an arrogant take on spiritual understanding andcondemns many people to more suffering compassion for all sentient beings is number one, will always be theessential most important thing in this sorry world and compassion mustbe for ourselves as well.i am still taking care of my mother , quite ill, i am and working withdrs. to get welli am trying to arrange care for my mother. which will take time.thestrain had physically broken me.but i am hopefulkindlysophia

---

Dear Sadhaks,

""Going up the Karmic chain is it logically possible that all of us have a wrong doing at our hands (in past lives) to explain our difficulties?"", exactly correct.

Humans by Sadhana (Sidhi –Buddhi- Bakthi- Mukthi Pradayani--- from Sri Mahalakshmi Stotra) elevates himself to highest level where in he comes to know his previous birth Karmas. Such a one completely remains silent to all happenings to him and happenings around him. Example Sri Ramana. If you read/listen (Srimath Bagavath discourses readily available in full explained format Vedio or Audio) one will know about Karmic effect.

"" There has to be somebody long ago who was the first sufferer (with no Karmic debt) at hands of the first wrong doer?"", as said above one needs Gyana Sidhi to know. But normal cannot ask this question. Nala and Manigoopa were 2 Gandervas made fun of Sri Naradh and was cursed to be born as trees in Virdhavan. A great Rishi (Name I don't get now) had Pitru (his parents) Runa (Karma due) had to perform yagna to complete it. Kans was one of Jaya and Vijaya at door step of Vaikunt, did mistake and was born on earth. Just think of ordinary humans, will they know their Karmic effect.

`''Why did that somebody (soul) choose to undergo hardship in the physical world even without any Karmic debt?—to-- girl who got flogged?''', Read Narayiniyam by Sri Batadri 2000 verses or atleast the verse starting with Yogendra Nam— written and approved by Bagavan Sri Krishna HIMSELF.

There are 13 other worlds (full description in Script Gyanapana by great Saint Poothanam) where one can commit sins and be born on earth to undergo the cause. Sir, your questions are answered very clearly in many scripts and in Vedas. The earth is called Karma Boomi. (for doing Good or bad—to elevate or suffer)

`''If yes, why does it make me feel that if—to-- very, very unjust happening to somebody?'''', understand your sufferings and happiness in same level are Karmic effect. In sufferings/happiness remain silent but focus thoughts on God telling HIM mentally that it is Ok, Oh God please shed your Karuniyam (grace) to bear all these. As in Geetha surrender Karmas to Paramathuma. As said above if you have (you have the power unused) the power of Shidhi (Vision of super conscience or ESP) you can see the one undergoing deep sufferings is none other than the one Who did such worst torches to some in past/past birth. There are number of Slokas written by great Sant in Kaliyug. They can wash away past sins by telling them sincerely with earnest faith and REMAINING divine. One such sloka is ""Vasudevam Sutham Devam—" ends with Koti Jalma Papam Vinasyathe (Crore Jalma sins vanishes)

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

-

PRIOR POSTING

Priy sadhak,

Ans of ur Q is extensive,I request U to please read SADHAK SANJIVNI BY SWAMIJI. It is really ultimate to satisfy ur Q.ThanxRaja Gurdasani------Namaste, Dear Sadhakas!Suveniji, first of all, when you see something unjust happening to somebody, tell your heart the following: Is it really unjust? if so, then can I intervene in this matter? If so, then you should try your best to undo unjust to that somebody. Regardless of karmic debt theory, one must give a fair try to help in such situations. Karma theory does not say to blame someone for suffering due to his/her past Karmas, absolutely not! What it says is that when bad things happen to an apparent individual himself/herself, then, say "ok it may be my past karms to have this problem now, but what matters now is how to resolve it satisfactorily, what can I do?" Such acceptance brings intelligence to resolve( Gita teaching). BE FREE of worries/fears, just ACT!Your grand father should say to himself this and see he can get help. it is definitely not wise to think of him as guilty of past karmas. You should, if you can help! Don't find faults with uncles either, instead, pray and ask God for help. Once you develop relationship with God, you will know how He acts as you, other people, situations to answer you!Besides, Karmic debt theory assumes that a person is doer of deeds that are performed through his/her body-mind. Find out: "is it true, am the doer of my actions?" Don't accept the answers based on some beliefs, conditioning etc, but inquire. You may have to get some help of a teacher/Swamiji or the likes here. Suppose you don't find any solid eveidence you are the doer, then drop this doership. Upon dropping the "doer", what basis karmas have to stand on? Individual's Karmas burn away along with the Karta-doer! By the way, "the doer" is "me-thought" in disguise, which in turn, disguised as desires, fears etc..Our individual actions are just one of many variables God-Nature uses to carry out actions. Really it is body-mind-intelligence-knowledge-skills that act, all given by God, but we mistake them for "me". If we use those in accordance with Gita, actions will liberate us form any bondage of karmas! Let us not ask about the first wrong doer/first sufferer etc. Even if you find the answer, it is not going to help resolve any problems in the present, the only thing that matters!Be free of Karmas with this knwoledge. You will know the relevance of Karmic debt then!Bottom line: karmas are imprints of human thoughts-feelings-emotions from the time immemorial left on the Consciousness which are carried from one generation to the next, evolving all the time. An individual can draw, modify, and put back his/her karmas into this ever-flowing stream of Karmas in the Ocean of Consciousness! This Ocean retains its purity even as it holds good and bad karmas of mankind, and initiates reincarnations when bad outweighs good, as Krishna, Rama, Christ and Sages and Saints across the globe. This is "yada yada hi dharmasya ......" BG Ch 4, 7.Namaskar........Pratap Bhatt

-----

Definitely those with good karmas in their previous births get rewarded and those with bad karmas get punished. Even in today's kaliyug one can see examples of people with bad karmas suffering in the end. But that does not mean that we should not help those sufferers by attributing their condition to bad karmas. By helping we will be getting good karmas for ourselves.

Hari Shanker Deo

--------

Dear sadhaks,

I have been reading the posts on this forum with interest and gratitude. Theyremind me of my beacon light every morning when I open my mailbox. Thank you toall of you for making this forum what it is.

My question is about Karmic debt, which first came to my mind when I saw mymaternal grand-parents suffering at the hands of their sons and the doubt isreinforced after reading a chain of posts initiated by Sophia ji (I hope she isfeeling better now ) where some of you gave a peek into your own personaldifficult times. Time and again, I have seen people refer to their earthlyproblems as Karmic debt, which if I understand correctly is the accumulation ofnegative points (lay woman's language) that we have earned by doing actions thathave violated somebody's domain in some way in the previous births. Assumingthat my premise is correct, I want to know:

-Going up the Karmic chain is it logically possible that all of us have a wrongdoing at our hands (in past lives) to explain our difficulties?

-There has to be somebody long ago who was the first sufferer (with no Karmicdebt) at hands of the first wrong doer? Why did that somebody (soul) choose toundergo hardship in the physical world even without any Karmic debt?

- I want to know what my grand-parents got (by way of treatment), was it whatthey deserved and my uncles are faultless? Are the so many new born babies whoget dumped in the dustbins/toilets paying for their wrong-doings and theirmother's are settling some old karmic scores? What about the girl who gotflogged? N the ones beheaded n stoned?

-If yes, why does it make me feel that if I really believe in this Karmic debttheory then I will become uncompassionate and everything horrible will seem tobe fair?

-What should I tell my heart the next time I hear/see something very, veryunjust happening to somebody?

Much thanks,

Suveni

PS: Please excuse the imperfections in my question. If there is such thing as aspiritual path/journey then I am one of those who have just begun looking in theright direction not having taken a single baby step yet.

-----------------------Shree Hari Ram RamIt is recommended that you also read previous related discussion thread at:

1) An Unfavorable Situation - Is it bad karmas? Act of God? Other?/message/1864

2) What is Karma ? It's Use & Importance ? What does Good and Bad Karma Leadto?/message/1444

3) Becoming Free from Karma Bondage - Actions, Impressions, Doership etc./message/2187

--------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit the use to Sanskrit words and provide English wordbracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

April 24, 2009

QUESTION SUMMARY - ON KARMIC DEBT (DETAILS BELOW)

1) Is it logically possible that all of us have a wrong doing at our hands (in past lives) to explain our difficulties?

2) There had to be somebody the first sufferer at the hands of first wrong doer. Why did that somebody (soul) choose to undergo hardship in the physical world even without any Karmic debt?

3) Whatever is received by sufferers is all deserving ? e.g. new born babies dumped

4) In lights of fair laws of karma, can one become incompassionate?

5) What should I tell my heart the next time I hear/see something very, veryunjust happening to somebody? (details of question... below)

Suveni

-----------

NEW QUESTION: Dear sirs, What is the difference between Prarabda and Sanchita Karmas? and how do we get rid of them. Kindly clarify.C.P.Srinivasan-

NEW POSTING

Ram RamSuveniji and C.P. Srinivasanji,Please read Sadhak-Sanjivani commentary of Chapter 18 - Verse12. It is available online in Hindi.http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/karmrahasya/main.htmlThe same is also available in book named 'Karma-Rahasya' chapter 1. It is also available online in Hindi. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/karmrahasya/main.htmlIn short,Sanchit Karmas - Karmas of all our previous human lives as well as current human life.Prarabdh - Out of the collection of sanchit karmas, those karmas which have given us human body and pleasant and unpleasant situations, is prarabdh karma. Destiny, prarabdh, kismat, naseeb, prarabdh, fate etc. are synonymous with each other.There is also third type of karma known as Kriyaman Karma (which we are currently doing in this human life) and there are also many subtypes to each type of karma. For elaborate explaination please read from the above links.How to get rid of karmas?I was able to find below few verses which answer your question.Gita 4/23, 5/10, 9/27-28, 18/9-12,17,46,66Thank You.Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia

--

Shri Krishna

1. No as far as difficulties are concerned. Yes ! As far as favourable or adverse circumstances are concerned. Sadhaks should appreciate that all difficulties are because of our STUPIDITY alone and not because of fate or destiny or karma , by whatever name we may call that. You are totally INDEPENDENT in getting or not getting happy or sorrowful when we encounter favourable or adverse circumstances based on our prior karmas.

2. The creation is eternal and timeless. Even at the end of one KALPA, when all merge into one, there arises another KALPA with transfer of karmic debts. Secondly, it is not necessary that the one at whose hands we are suffering is because of some earlier contractual obligations. God keeps changing mediums. For example, it is not necessary that if some one has been given capital punishment and the hang man is redeeming some old debts. Hang man is simply doing his duty. The other is simply a medium of Law of Karma - may or may not be redeeming old score with you, in fact, your prior karma is punishing/rewarding you through operation of Law of Karma and the medium may or may not have any past karmic relationship with you. Be very clear on this. The other may be incurring a totally new sin. But your old sin is getting wiped out, there is no doubt on the same.

3 Reg new born babies, when you grasp the above principle, the matter gets clarified.

4. No ! Becoming compassionate or non-compassionate is a present life new karma. You are independent in that. No past life karmas can force you to become adharmic or commit sins. NEVER !!

5 . Feel compassionate about the sufferer, pray to God for cessation of all sufferrings and help the sufferer , if you can. Dont develop any hatred or negativity about the abuser. Dont become yourself bad, by considering anyone to be bad.This world is DUKHALAYAM. Have the goal of seeing all happy.

Swami Rupesh Kumar

-

Dear Sadaks,Prarabdha Karma is action done by one that cannot be taken back. Vivekachudamni says, that Prarabda Karma is like arrow sent out of bow knowing or unknowing causes risk. Prarabda Karma effect one has to undergo. Where as Sanchita Karma can be compensated by realization of mistake and doing prayachit.King Dasaratha left arrow by mistake on a boy. The boy` s parents cursed that he (king) that he shall also under the same separation of his (king) son. This curse was much before Sri Ramawas born. This is Physical action of King Dasaratha. What to say about this everyone knows. Mother Seetha asking for giolden deer in spite of Sri Rama upraising her not to have such desire. Sri rama was not firm in staying with mother Seetha. Sri Rama went behind deer. Here Sri Rama knew the consequences because HE was Bagavan himself. Sri Krishna tells Devaki on being born that HE is Vaikuntapathi and it is HIS 3rd birth to them. 1st was to Prishni and Sutapa. 2cd was to Kasyapa and Adhiti. Bagavan has also said HIS birth in Kaliyg to whom and where.The realized souls do have this power of reading past births. The doer does not know wrong action or right action. To know of action one must read sastras under Guru in young age itself as in olden days of Sri Rama or Sri Krishna. Even in those days Duryodhan and Pandavas were under one Guru. But Pandavas could maintain Dharma at all levels. Where as Duryodhan maintained Adharma at all levels. Reason previous birth stock. Why many people with divine touch still mentally cannot abstain from looks of lust. They know it is wrong. The vasana is stronger than conscience.Innocent dumped babies: Innocent 6 children of Devaki was killed by maternal uncle. These 6 were sinned small extent ones at Bhrama Lok that their account of Karma was to be born and get killed. Each one was taken by Naradh to Bhrama lok on death. Certain Jeeva have to be born with disability. The parents of such jeeva indulges on Ekadasi day which is the result. So it is time and parents to whom the Jeeva has to go is decided on it` s own karmas Prabdha-Sanchita-Aagami. One can see a dog going in car with royal treatment, where as child suffers due to hunger. The child karma it states it kicked food, wasted food, deprived others food in earlier birth. So based on once action the next birth is decided. Bagavan has said very clearly in Geetha.Compassion does not come to one but it is in full with another. Christ compassion even to people who crucified him. HE was saintly person and knew cause and effect. The link of hatred, anger etc was totally cut by HIM. This gave him austral body to rise from death and go to highest level. Every human knows what is compassion. But never uses it, because his likes and dislikes are framed tight on Karmic circle.It is up to one to decide and learn knowledge and prepare himself for realization.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan

----

Dear all,

Thanks for all your responses. As suggested by most of you, I guess to get a better understanding I need to do some reading. And that's what I will do going forward. To clarify a little, one of my questions:

> What should I tell my heart the next time I hear/see something very, very unjust happening to somebody?

Was about the "suffering" of others over which I have no power to help/correct. As regards my own personal difficulties, I have learnt to deal with them using a simple rule, which works for me..I say to my-self that this situation/person that I now confront is there to teach me something, I must take the lesson, grow and move forward.

Is there a simple mental note like this that one can use while confronting difficulties/trauma of "others" in the world over which I have no power? I am learning to teach my-self to see the Lord in everything by repeating "There is no one else in the room, there is no OTHER". So when one sees the beloved's hardships in so many forms, what does one tell the aching heart?

Much thanks,

Suveni

PS1: Since some of you talked about my grandpa, I wish to tell that he expired a couple of years ago and my granny last year. During their times of misery I was a student and hundreds of miles away from them…letters were our only mode of communication. Today in the pages of Bhagvad Gita, is the fond letter from my grandparents… they come alive when I read it. I know that wherever they are today (other than my heart), my grand-pa and ma would be very peaceful.

PS2: Dear Sophia ji, I really hope all of this trial is over for you very soon. Wishing you health and happiness.

=========================================================

TO READ ALL PRIOR POSTING GO TO:

/message/2560

SUMMARY RESPONSES TO DATE

1) Is it logically possible that all of us have a wrong doing at our hands (in past lives) to explain our difficulties?

Please read SADHAK SANJIVNI BY SWAMIJI. It is really ultimate to satisfy ur Q. (RG)

Humans by Sadhana (Sidhi –Buddhi- Bakthi- Mukthi Pradayani--- from Sri Mahalakshmi Stotra) elevates himself to highest level where in he comes to know his previous birth Karmas. Such a one completely remains silent to all happenings to him and happenings around him. (BS)

Karmas are imprints of human thoughts-feelings-emotions from the time immemorial left on the Consciousness which are carried from one generation to the next, evolving all the time. An individual can draw, modify, and put back his/her karmas into this ever-flowing stream of Karmas in the Ocean of Consciousness! This Ocean retains its purity even as it holds good and bad karmas of mankind, and initiates reincarnations when bad outweighs good, as Krishna, Rama, Christ and Sages and Saints across the globe. This is "yada yada hi dharmasya ......" BG Ch 4, 7. (PB) 2) There had to be somebody the first sufferer at the hands of first wrong doer. Why did that somebody (soul) choose to undergo hardship in the physical world even without any Karmic debt?

one needs Gyana Sidhi to know. Read Narayiniyam by Sri Batadri 2000 verses or atleast the verse starting with Yogendra Nam— written and approved by Bagavan Sri Krishna HIMSELF. (BS)

Living in accordance with Gita, actions can liberate us form any bondage of karmas!

3) Whatever is received by sufferers is all deserving ? e.g. new born babies dumped

God-Intelligence Supreme wants us to start with a clean slate-another chance torealize our Immortality. Nothing prevents us from taking corrective actions in the NOW! Suffering and wrong doing both have to be dealt with. human abuses happen due to selfishness! Gita and other scriptures help, if we heed the teachings! All problems are due to us seeing ourselves as separate individuals. (PB)

The earth is called Karma Boomi. (for doing Good or bad—to elevate or suffer) (BS)

4) In lights of fair laws of karma, can one become incompassionate?

Compassion for all sentient beings is number one, will always be the essential most important thing. Compassion must be for ourselves as well. (SD)

In sufferings/happiness remain silent but focus thoughts on God telling HIM mentally that it is Ok, Oh God please shed your Karuniyam (grace) to bear all these. As in Geetha surrender Karmas to Paramathuma. Many shlokas can wash away past sins by sincere recitation with earnest faith and REMAINING divine. e.g. "Vasudevam Sutham Devam—" ends with Koti Jalma Papam Vinasyathe (Crore Jalma sins vanishes) (SB)

Most of Ch 3 and 4 are devoted to emphasize life of freedom from karmas(doership/desires/attachments) while being engaged in very karmas as none can remain without doing actions. Very little emphasis is on past lives and its karmic debts. (PB)

Karma theory does not say to blame someone for suffering due to his/her past Karmas, absolutely not! What it says is that when bad things happen to an individual, then, say "ok it may be my past karms to have this problem now, but what matters now is how to resolve it satisfactorily, what can I do?" Such acceptance brings intelligence to resolve( Gita teaching). BE FREE of worries/fears, just ACT! (PB) Karmic debt theory assumes that a person is doer of deeds that are performed through his/her body-mind. Find out: "is it true, am the doer of my actions?" On dropping the "doer" (me-thought along with desires, fears etc), karmas have no basis to stand on and burn away along with the Karta-doer! (PB)

5) What should I tell my heart the next time I hear/see something very, very unjust happening to somebody? (details of question... below)

People with bad karmas will suffer in the end. But that does not mean that we should not help those sufferers by attributing their condition to bad karmas. By helping we will be our duty (karmas). (HSD)

always help wherever whenever we can as long as we are not being abused and victimized. Look at what is happening in a detached manner - step away.(SD)

Don't find faults in the wrong doer, instead pray and ask God for help. Once you develop relationship with God, you will know how He acts as you, other people, situations to answer you! (PB)

Every human knows what is compassion. But never uses it, because his likes and dislikes are framed tight on Karmic circle. It is up to one to decide and learn knowledge and prepare himself for realization (BS)

6) What is the difference between Prarabda and Sanchita Karmas? and how do we get rid of them.

based on once action the next birth is decided. Bagavan has said very clearly in Geetha.Prarabdha Karma is action done by one that cannot be taken back and the effect which one has to undergo.

Sanchita Karma can be compensated by realization of mistake and doing prayachit (feeling remorse, penance).

Sanchit Karmas - Karmas of all our previous human lives as well as current human life.Prarabdh - Out of the collection of sanchit karmas, those karmas which have given us human body and pleasant and unpleasant situations, is prarabdh karma. Destiny, prarabdh, kismat, naseeb, prarabdh, fate etc. are synonymous with each other. There is also third type of karma known as Kriyaman Karma (which we are currently doing in this human life) and there are also many subtypes to each type of karma. (VP)

And how do we get rid of them?

Gita 4/23, 5/10, 9/27-28, 18/9-12,17,46,66

-----

DETAILED QUESTION

Dear sadhaks,

I have been reading the posts on this forum with interest and gratitude. Theyremind me of my beacon light every morning when I open my mailbox. Thank you toall of you for making this forum what it is.

My question is about Karmic debt, which first came to my mind when I saw mymaternal grand-parents suffering at the hands of their sons and the doubt isreinforced after reading a chain of posts initiated by Sophia ji (I hope she isfeeling better now ) where some of you gave a peek into your own personaldifficult times. Time and again, I have seen people refer to their earthlyproblems as Karmic debt, which if I understand correctly is the accumulation ofnegative points (lay woman's language) that we have earned by doing actions thathave violated somebody's domain in some way in the previous births. Assumingthat my premise is correct, I want to know:

-Going up the Karmic chain is it logically possible that all of us have a wrongdoing at our hands (in past lives) to explain our difficulties?

-There has to be somebody long ago who was the first sufferer (with no Karmicdebt) at hands of the first wrong doer? Why did that somebody (soul) choose toundergo hardship in the physical world even without any Karmic debt?

- I want to know what my grand-parents got (by way of treatment), was it whatthey deserved and my uncles are faultless? Are the so many new born babies whoget dumped in the dustbins/toilets paying for their wrong-doings and theirmother's are settling some old karmic scores? What about the girl who gotflogged? N the ones beheaded n stoned?

-If yes, why does it make me feel that if I really believe in this Karmic debttheory then I will become uncompassionate and everything horrible will seem tobe fair?

-What should I tell my heart the next time I hear/see something very, veryunjust happening to somebody?

Much thanks,

Suveni

PS: Please excuse the imperfections in my question. If there is such thing as aspiritual path/journey then I am one of those who have just begun looking in theright direction not having taken a single baby step yet.

-----------------------Shree Hari Ram RamIt is recommended that you also read previous related discussion thread at:

1) An Unfavorable Situation - Is it bad karmas? Act of God? Other?/message/1864

2) What is Karma ? It's Use & Importance ? What does Good and Bad Karma Lead to?/message/1444

3) Becoming Free from Karma Bondage - Actions, Impressions, Doership etc./message/2187

--------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit the use to Sanskrit words and provide English wordbracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

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April 26, 2009

QUESTION SUMMARY - ON KARMIC DEBT (DETAILS BELOW)

1) Is it logically possible that all of us have a wrong doing at our hands (in past lives) to explain our difficulties?

2) There had to be somebody the first sufferer at the hands of first wrong doer. Why did that somebody (soul) choose to undergo hardship in the physical world even without any Karmic debt?

3) Whatever is received by sufferers is all deserving ? e.g. new born babies dumped

4) In lights of fair laws of karma, can one become incompassionate?

5) What should I tell my heart the next time I hear/see something very, veryunjust happening to somebody? (details of question... below)

Suveni

-----------

NEW QUESTION: Dear sirs, What is the difference between Prarabda and Sanchita Karmas? and how do we get rid of them. Kindly clarify.C.P.Srinivasan-

NEW POSTING

Hari OmQuestions like this help us in understanding the Law of Karma and do let us admire the "justice" as well as "kindness" of Paramatma. It is very rare to find both justice and kindness operating together in day to day life, but Laws of God always present to us sheer ruthlessness of prakriti on one hand and divine kindness of Paramatma. Well, the difficulties do not arise out of circumstances or situations and your past deeds have no role to play in making you happy or sorrowful. It is DESIRE or expectation of happiness out of world, out of situations and circumstances that make the situations difficult to digest. The fact however remains that :* Destiny merely presents good or difficult circumstances before you. To get soorowful or happy is not caused by destiny but by stupidity/ignorance !* Every calamity is a blessing in disguise. Its result is ONLY reduction of your karmic liabilities and purification.* You can break the chain of action/reaction; birth/death ONLY in this human life. Hence sorrow/karma has no capacity to cause further sorrows/karmas. Use of Conscience (viveka) here plays very important role.* No one in mortal world is free of sorrows. There is nothing unique or important or particular or special about it. The world is designed so- ab initio. "Dukhalayam" ! What is common to all can't be a subject matter of sorrow. Who cries when Sun sets? No one ! Because it is common to all !* No one is supposed to be sorrowful. - "Sahaj Sukhrashi". Only stupids grieve.* In adversity, there is always more spiritual progress. It is our direct experience* DEH DHARE KA DAND HAI SAB KAHOO KO HOY !GYAANI BHUGATE GYAAN SE, MOORAKH BHUGATE ROY !!Human life is a universal tax to be borne by every human being, in the form of sorrows. A wise accepts that with knowledge and a stupid dries , grieves and accepts.* SUKH DUKH NA KOPI DAATA, PARO DADATI, KUBUDDHIH RESHA !!No one (circumstances, situations, people,body, mind, intellect, world, time, God, Karma phala, fate, destiny, all included ) is capable of giving pleasures or pains to you. "That other is giving it" - this very thought is wrong !!* Lord in Gita starts with addressing worries ( ashochyananva shochastvam) and ends with an advice reg worries ( ma suchah). DON'T WORRY. Merely by "not worrying" - worry evaporates. FINAL ADVICE by Lord Krishna to all humans- DON'T WORRY.* IF WE JUST DECIDE that come what may - I shall not grieve, sorrow can't touch you. LAST WORDS of Lord Krishna- Don't worry !! MA SUCHAH !!Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

--

Shri Krishna

1. No as far as difficulties are concerned. Yes ! As far as favourable or adverse circumstances are concerned. Sadhaks should appreciate that all difficulties are because of our STUPIDITY alone and not because of fate or destiny or karma , by whatever name we may call that. You are totally INDEPENDENT in getting or not getting happy or sorrowful when we encounter favourable or adverse circumstances based on our prior karmas.

2. The creation is eternal and timeless. Even at the end of one KALPA, when all merge into one, there arises another KALPA with transfer of karmic debts. Secondly, it is not necessary that the one at whose hands we are suffering is because of some earlier contractual obligations. God keeps changing mediums. For example, it is not necessary that if some one has been given capital punishment and the hang man is redeeming some old debts. Hang man is simply doing his duty. The other is simply a medium of Law of Karma - may or may not be redeeming old score with you, in fact, your prior karma is punishing/rewarding you through operation of Law of Karma and the medium may or may not have any past karmic relationship with you. Be very clear on this. The other may be incurring a totally new sin. But your old sin is getting wiped out, there is no doubt on the same.

3 Reg new born babies, when you grasp the above principle, the matter gets clarified.

4. No ! Becoming compassionate or non-compassionate is a present life new karma. You are independent in that. No past life karmas can force you to become adharmic or commit sins. NEVER !!

5 . Feel compassionate about the sufferer, pray to God for cessation of all sufferrings and help the sufferer , if you can. Dont develop any hatred or negativity about the abuser. Dont become yourself bad, by considering anyone to be bad.This world is DUKHALAYAM. Have the goal of seeing all happy.

Swami Rupesh Kumar

Namaste dear sadhaks:

There appears to be genuine misinformation, misunderstanding, and misinterpretation about KARMA. Also, there is deliberate propaganda about KARMA, spread by those who seek to denigrate Hinduism, for whatever purpose. Basically, this is how it is put across:

"Karma does everything. It is all destiny. If I am destined by my karma to be like this or like that, why then should I exert? It is my destiny only."

In other words, they portray and interpret KARMA as fatalism, and that KARMA will bring inertia, stagnation and misery. If this has been discussed before, please provide the thread URL. If not, please comment

Ram Ram

Deosaran Bisnath

-

PRIOR POSTING

Ram Ram

Suveniji and C.P. Srinivasanji,Please read Sadhak-Sanjivani commentary of Chapter 18 - Verse12. It is available online in Hindi.http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/karmrahasya/main.html

The same is also available in book named 'Karma-Rahasya' chapter 1. It is also available online in Hindi. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/karmrahasya/main.html

In short,Sanchit Karmas - Karmas of all our previous human lives as well as current human life.Prarabdh - Out of the collection of sanchit karmas, those karmas which have given us human body and pleasant and unpleasant situations, is prarabdh karma. Destiny, prarabdh, kismat, naseeb, prarabdh, fate etc. are synonymous with each other.

There is also third type of karma known as Kriyaman Karma (which we are currently doing in this human life) and there are also many subtypes to each type of karma. For elaborate explaination please read from the above links.

How to get rid of karmas?I was able to find below few verses which answer your question.Gita 4/23, 5/10, 9/27-28, 18/9-12,17,46,66

Thank You.Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia--

Shri Krishna 1. No as far as difficulties are concerned. Yes ! As far as favourable or adverse circumstances are concerned. Sadhaks should appreciate that all difficulties are because of our STUPIDITY alone and not because of fate or destiny or karma , by whatever name we may call that. You are totally INDEPENDENT in getting or not getting happy or sorrowful when we encounter favourable or adverse circumstances based on our prior karmas. 2. The creation is eternal and timeless. Even at the end of one KALPA, when all merge into one, there arises another KALPA with transfer of karmic debts. Secondly, it is not necessary that the one at whose hands we are suffering is because of some earlier contractual obligations. God keeps changing mediums. For example, it is not necessary that if some one has been given capital punishment and the hang man is redeeming some old debts. Hang man is simply doing his duty. The other is simply a medium of Law of Karma - may or may not be redeeming old score with you, in fact, your prior karma is punishing/rewarding you through operation of Law of Karma and the medium may or may not have any past karmic relationship with you. Be very clear on this. The other may be incurring a totally new sin. But your old sin is getting wiped out, there is no doubt on the same. 3 Reg new born babies, when you grasp the above principle, the matter gets clarified. 4. No ! Becoming compassionate or non-compassionate is a present life new karma. You are independent in that. No past life karmas can force you to become adharmic or commit sins. NEVER !! 5 . Feel compassionate about the sufferer, pray to God for cessation of all sufferrings and help the sufferer , if you can. Dont develop any hatred or negativity about the abuser. Dont become yourself bad, by considering anyone to be bad.This world is DUKHALAYAM. Have the goal of seeing all happy. Swami Rupesh Kumar

-

Dear Sadaks,Prarabdha Karma is action done by one that cannot be taken back. Vivekachudamni says, that Prarabda Karma is like arrow sent out of bow knowing or unknowing causes risk. Prarabda Karma effect one has to undergo. Where as Sanchita Karma can be compensated by realization of mistake and doing prayachit.King Dasaratha left arrow by mistake on a boy. The boy` s parents cursed that he (king) that he shall also under the same separation of his (king) son. This curse was much before Sri Ramawas born. This is Physical action of King Dasaratha. What to say about this everyone knows. Mother Seetha asking for giolden deer in spite of Sri Rama upraising her not to have such desire. Sri rama was not firm in staying with mother Seetha. Sri Rama went behind deer. Here Sri Rama knew the consequences because HE was Bagavan himself. Sri Krishna tells Devaki on being born that HE is Vaikuntapathi and it is HIS 3rd birth to them. 1st was to Prishni and Sutapa. 2cd was to Kasyapa and Adhiti. Bagavan has also said HIS birth in Kaliyg to whom and where.The realized souls do have this power of reading past births. The doer does not know wrong action or right action. To know of action one must read sastras under Guru in young age itself as in olden days of Sri Rama or Sri Krishna. Even in those days Duryodhan and Pandavas were under one Guru. But Pandavas could maintain Dharma at all levels. Where as Duryodhan maintained Adharma at all levels. Reason previous birth stock. Why many people with divine touch still mentally cannot abstain from looks of lust. They know it is wrong. The vasana is stronger than conscience.Innocent dumped babies: Innocent 6 children of Devaki was killed by maternal uncle. These 6 were sinned small extent ones at Bhrama Lok that their account of Karma was to be born and get killed. Each one was taken by Naradh to Bhrama lok on death. Certain Jeeva have to be born with disability. The parents of such jeeva indulges on Ekadasi day which is the result. So it is time and parents to whom the Jeeva has to go is decided on it` s own karmas Prabdha-Sanchita-Aagami. One can see a dog going in car with royal treatment, where as child suffers due to hunger. The child karma it states it kicked food, wasted food, deprived others food in earlier birth. So based on once action the next birth is decided. Bagavan has said very clearly in Geetha.Compassion does not come to one but it is in full with another. Christ compassion even to people who crucified him. HE was saintly person and knew cause and effect. The link of hatred, anger etc was totally cut by HIM. This gave him austral body to rise from death and go to highest level. Every human knows what is compassion. But never uses it, because his likes and dislikes are framed tight on Karmic circle.It is up to one to decide and learn knowledge and prepare himself for realization.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan

----

Dear all,

Thanks for all your responses. As suggested by most of you, I guess to get a better understanding I need to do some reading. And that's what I will do going forward. To clarify a little, one of my questions:

> What should I tell my heart the next time I hear/see something very, very unjust happening to somebody?

Was about the "suffering" of others over which I have no power to help/correct. As regards my own personal difficulties, I have learnt to deal with them using a simple rule, which works for me..I say to my-self that this situation/person that I now confront is there to teach me something, I must take the lesson, grow and move forward.

Is there a simple mental note like this that one can use while confronting difficulties/trauma of "others" in the world over which I have no power? I am learning to teach my-self to see the Lord in everything by repeating "There is no one else in the room, there is no OTHER". So when one sees the beloved's hardships in so many forms, what does one tell the aching heart?

Much thanks,

Suveni

PS1: Since some of you talked about my grandpa, I wish to tell that he expired a couple of years ago and my granny last year. During their times of misery I was a student and hundreds of miles away from them…letters were our only mode of communication. Today in the pages of Bhagvad Gita, is the fond letter from my grandparents… they come alive when I read it. I know that wherever they are today (other than my heart), my grand-pa and ma would be very peaceful.

PS2: Dear Sophia ji, I really hope all of this trial is over for you very soon. Wishing you health and happiness.

=========================================================

TO READ ALL PRIOR POSTING GO TO:

/message/2560

SUMMARY RESPONSES TO DATE

1) Is it logically possible that all of us have a wrong doing at our hands (in past lives) to explain our difficulties?

Please read SADHAK SANJIVNI BY SWAMIJI. It is really ultimate to satisfy ur Q. (RG)

Humans by Sadhana (Sidhi –Buddhi- Bakthi- Mukthi Pradayani--- from Sri Mahalakshmi Stotra) elevates himself to highest level where in he comes to know his previous birth Karmas. Such a one completely remains silent to all happenings to him and happenings around him. (BS)

Karmas are imprints of human thoughts-feelings-emotions from the time immemorial left on the Consciousness which are carried from one generation to the next, evolving all the time. An individual can draw, modify, and put back his/her karmas into this ever-flowing stream of Karmas in the Ocean of Consciousness! This Ocean retains its purity even as it holds good and bad karmas of mankind, and initiates reincarnations when bad outweighs good, as Krishna, Rama, Christ and Sages and Saints across the globe. This is "yada yada hi dharmasya ......" BG Ch 4, 7. (PB)