What is Gitaji's Explanation for Ruthless Crimes with no known Consequences

June 16, 2009

Sir, A Hindu man beat his wife until one day she was brain dead. He is alive and

she is dead. How could a person live with them self after doing something so

bad? What does Gitaji say to explain such a thing?

Vimla Kisson

------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

FOR QUESTIONER

1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant to

Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take up

spiritual path

2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study

3. Only one question at a time.

4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aim

of deeper understanding of Gita.

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they

further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, address

etc) or personalize message to particular person

7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modify

the posting.

8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit

the use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

Post message:

Subscribe: -

Un: -

June 17, 2009

Sir, A Hindu man beat his wife until one day she was brain dead. He is alive andshe is dead. How could a person live with them self after doing something sobad? What does Gitaji say to explain such a thing?

Vimla Kisson------------------

NEW POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Vimlaji, if spouses who are in abusive relationship read Gita or scriptures or followed the likes of Swamiji, both the abusers and victioms would know how to deal with such situations before they become problematic! At least, for the rest of such spouses it is never too late to do so. Right action, be of amicable divorce or giving love and understanding to the abuser(s) before such extreme incidents take place is what Gita can teach us.As a matter of fact, Arjuna dealt with similar situation of abuse by Kauravas, their own brothers, after listening to Bhagwaan Shri Krishna, by fighting a just war. This action came, not from an individual Arjuna, but from 'the understanding' of importance to act without being a doer, within the guidelines of Dharma, righteousness and duties, and for greater good. Here body-mind-intellect only carried out the execution of war efficiently, and impersonally upon receving clarity from the Lord. In the case you mentioned, the recourse now is best left to the police, and court while helping them in whatever ways friends and relatives can. The abuser is punished(not hated) only so others in society can be protected from such harms. Use of correctional facilities should incorporate elements of spiritual education so such abusers can put their lives in order. I have heard of benefits of meditation by the prisoners in one country where crimes were reduced to a great extent.Answers to societal problems of such nature are in the spiritual education early on making every child a better citizen. Gita being universal in its approach is but one such answer in preventing and dealing with them.Namaskar.........Pratap Bhatt

Hari OmIn a really short Q , Vimalaji has raised some of the core spiritual issues which make one wonder regarding the Creation viz this World. Issues are :1 How can Antaratma (Conscience) of such a person doing such an act allow him to live peacefully or face the world ? What is the role of Conscience then ? 2 Where is the justice of Paramatma prevailing if such a criminal breaths and lives freely "with no known consequences" ? How can evil enjoy in the Creation made by Paramatma with a conclusion - Vasudev Sarvam?The aforesaid are two real issues. How do we see that criminal still "enjoying" ? The Q in fact is an example of what is referred in Gitaji as - "Gahana Karmano Gatih"!It is a very good Q and let us threadbare examine and satify Vimalaji on spiritual grounds. Let views flow freely. Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

-----

Dear Sadaks,Quoting from Geetha related points.Real sadaks point of View: Who is husband? Who is wife? Who is living? Who is dead?When Prahalad was ordered by his father to torched, he sang a sloka- Who is torches & who is being torched everything is Sriman NarayanaFrom Normal man point of view: The man thinking was wife is bad. The woman thinking was husband too bad. No human has right to cause pain to any living being says Geetha refers from Upanashids which is source of Vedas, and Vedas came from Sriman Narayana. Instead a man/woman can undergo suffering quitely without any reciprocation. Vedic View:Such a man`s/woman`s total Karmas good and bad is transfered to the person responsible in causing sufferings. A human has to have no puniya or Paap to his/her account to liberate/Mukthi. The torches takes away all bad karmas by causing sufferings and children/relatives/friends who takes over the assets (movable or immovable) of the dead person takes away the puniyas. So that soul is totally free from all karmas and goes to Vaikunt or Kailash. Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan-

Dear sadhakas,Hare krishna. This is in response to a question from a sadhaka. Lord krishna describes in bhagavad gita the demoniac qualities. "Dambho darpo bhimanas ca,Krodhah parushyam eva ca,Ajnanam cabhijatasya,Partha sampadam asurim.( Gitaji, 16, 4)Which means" Pride, arrogance,conceit, anger,harshness and ignorance, these are the qualities of the demoniac person. "Obviously, any person exhibiting the demoniac qualities need spiritual help immediately. If that person comes in contact with the holy book ( gitaji) through satsang, there is a great chance for him or her to have a change of heart. After all, in hinduism there are several examples of people, having bad qualities initially, developed divine qualities later on in life through devotional service. Lord krishna says in gitaji,"Mat karma krn mat paramo,Mad bhaktah sanga varjitah,Nirvairah sarva bhuteshu,Yah sa mam eti pandavah". ( Gita, 11, 55) Which means,"O dear. Arjuna , whoever engages in devotional service,works for. Me takes. Me as the supreme personality of godhead in one, s life and who is friendly to every one, that person, definitely comes to. Me. "Love and friendhip towards every one is most important for spiritual progress. Devotional service ( bhakti yoga) is the way to remove those demoniac qualities. It is the direct path to attain the lord. Thank you. Hare krishna. Prasad. Iragavarapu. M. DDear sadhakas,Hare krishna. This is in response to a question from a sadhaka. Lord krishna describes in bhagavad gita the demoniac qualities. "Dambho darpo bhimanas ca,Krodhah parushyam eva ca,Ajnanam cabhijatasya,Partha sampadam asurim.( Gitaji, 16, 4)Which means" Pride, arrogance,conceit, anger,harshness and ignorance, these are the qualities of the demoniac person. "Obviously, any person exhibiting the demoniac qualities need spiritual help immediately. If that person comes in contact with the holy book ( gitaji) through satsang, there is a great chance for him or her to have a change of heart. After all, in hinduism there are several examples of people, having bad qualities initially, developed divine qualities later on in life through devotional service. Lord krishna says in gitaji,"Mat karma krn mat paramo,Mad bhaktah sanga varjitah,Nirvairah sarva bhuteshu,Yah sa mam eti pandavah". ( Gita, 11, 55) Which means,"O dear. Arjuna , whoever engages in devotional service,works for. Me takes. Me as the supreme personality of godhead in one, s life and who is friendly to every one, that person, definitely comes to. Me. "Love and friendhip towards every one is most important for spiritual progress. Devotional service ( bhakti yoga) is the way to remove those demoniac qualities. It is the direct path to attain the lord. Thank you. Hare krishna. Prasad. Iragavarapu. M. D

--

Please read verses 18 to 21 of Chapter 16. We have to keep away form thisCompany; In case he happens to be our family member or a close relative,eventhen some means have to be found to keep some distance. Lastly recite the famousBhajan of Surdasji: Nirbal Ke Bal Rama especially 'Sur Shyama Krupase,Sab BalHare ko HARINAM. It does work; keep Faith.Jayantilal Shah

-------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that theyfurther help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

June 18, 2009

Sir, A Hindu man beat his wife until one day she was brain dead. He is alive andshe is dead. How could a person live with them self after doing something sobad? What does Gitaji say to explain such a thing?

Vimla Kisson------------------

NEW POSTING

Dear sadhakas, Namaste,Pondering over question we know that Gods Will be done and is done in all matters and it is not for us to go ahead of God not trusting our every step to Him/Do we question as devotees when we are disciplined? Gita says when you live in peace with all family and going that extra mile will render an excellent atmosphere if all members follow not returning good for evil.So what does God say regarding those who do not perform his duty?.It is not our business how God shall handle this.Yes as Pratap Bhatt said use of correctional facilities with spiritual education is important and living in such a temple doing such wrong has its own recompense.Friends and family may wash hands of person and disassociate themselves from this one and forgiveness of society is many times null and void although as devotees we have not concerns of being of this world but being Gods Only.Does the criminal truly enjoy life? It is in being detached from anyone harmful and for all times when being in bad situation to put all memories on we are Gods Only and even this on last breath should be remembering God.with dearest love to all

catherine Anderson

-------

Ram Ram,

I agree with the counter-questions of Sri Vyasji. Today's man is not satisfied with the answer "Gahana Karmano Gatih"!

I expect more from Vyasji.

Ashok Goenka

-------

"Api chedasuduracharo bhajate maam ananyabhak" Gita-9/30. There is always a path for everyone irrespective of his past deed. Niteesh Dubey

-------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Vimlaji, if spouses who are in abusive relationship read Gita or scriptures or followed the likes of Swamiji, both the abusers and victioms would know how to deal with such situations before they become problematic! At least, for the rest of such spouses it is never too late to do so. Right action, be of amicable divorce or giving love and understanding to the abuser(s) before such extreme incidents take place is what Gita can teach us.

As a matter of fact, Arjuna dealt with similar situation of abuse by Kauravas, their own brothers, after listening to Bhagwaan Shri Krishna, by fighting a just war. This action came, not from an individual Arjuna, but from 'the understanding' of importance to act without being a doer, within the guidelines of Dharma, righteousness and duties, and for greater good. Here body-mind-intellect only carried out the execution of war efficiently, and impersonally upon receving clarity from the Lord. In the case you mentioned, the recourse now is best left to the police, and court while helping them in whatever ways friends and relatives can. The abuser is punished(not hated) only so others in society can be protected from such harms. Use of correctional facilities should incorporate elements of spiritual education so such abusers can put their lives in order. I have heard of benefits of meditation by the prisoners in one country where crimes were reduced to a great extent.Answers to societal problems of such nature are in the spiritual education early on making every child a better citizen. Gita being universal in its approach is but one such answer in preventing and dealing with them.Namaskar.........Pratap Bhatt

Hari Om

In a really short Q , Vimalaji has raised some of the core spiritual issues which make one wonder regarding the Creation viz this World. Issues are :

1 How can Antaratma (Conscience) of such a person doing such an act allow him to live peacefully or face the world ? What is the role of Conscience then ?

2 Where is the justice of Paramatma prevailing if such a criminal breaths and lives freely "with no known consequences" ? How can evil enjoy in the Creation made by Paramatma with a conclusion - Vasudev Sarvam?

The aforesaid are two real issues. How do we see that criminal still "enjoying" ?

The Q in fact is an example of what is referred in Gitaji as - "Gahana Karmano Gatih"!

It is a very good Q and let us threadbare examine and satify Vimalaji on spiritual grounds. Let views flow freely.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----

Dear Sadaks,Quoting from Geetha related points.Real sadaks point of View: Who is husband? Who is wife? Who is living? Who is dead?When Prahalad was ordered by his father to torched, he sang a sloka- Who is torches & who is being torched everything is Sriman NarayanaFrom Normal man point of view: The man thinking was wife is bad. The woman thinking was husband too bad. No human has right to cause pain to any living being says Geetha refers from Upanashids which is source of Vedas, and Vedas came from Sriman Narayana. Instead a man/woman can undergo suffering quitely without any reciprocation.

Vedic View:Such a man`s/woman`s total Karmas good and bad is transfered to the person responsible in causing sufferings. A human has to have no puniya or Paap to his/her account to liberate/Mukthi. The torches takes away all bad karmas by causing sufferings and children/relatives/friends who takes over the assets (movable or immovable) of the dead person takes away the puniyas. So that soul is totally free from all karmas and goes to Vaikunt or Kailash. Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan-

Dear sadhakas,Hare krishna.

This is in response to a question from a sadhaka.

Lord krishna describes in bhagavad gita the demoniac qualities.

"Dambho darpo bhimanas ca,Krodhah parushyam eva ca,Ajnanam cabhijatasya,Partha sampadam asurim.( Gitaji, 16, 4)

Which means" Pride, arrogance,conceit, anger,harshness and ignorance, these are the qualities of the demoniac person. "

Obviously, any person exhibiting the demoniac qualities need spiritual help immediately. If that person comes in contact with the holy book ( gitaji) through satsang, there is a great chance for him or her to have a change of heart. After all, in hinduism there are several examples of people, having bad qualities initially, developed divine qualities later on in life through devotional service.

Lord krishna says in gitaji,

"Mat karma krn mat paramo,Mad bhaktah sanga varjitah,Nirvairah sarva bhuteshu,Yah sa mam eti pandavah". ( Gita, 11, 55)

Which means,

"O dear. Arjuna , whoever engages in devotional service,works for. Me takes. Me as the supreme personality of godhead in one, s life and who is friendly to every one, that person, definitely comes to. Me. "

Love and friendhip towards every one is most important for spiritual progress.

Devotional service ( bhakti yoga) is the way to remove those demoniac qualities. It is the direct path to attain the lord.

Thank you. Hare krishna.

Prasad. Iragavarapu. M. D Dear sadhakas,Hare krishna.

This is in response to a question from a sadhaka.

Lord krishna describes in bhagavad gita the demoniac qualities.

"Dambho darpo bhimanas ca,Krodhah parushyam eva ca,Ajnanam cabhijatasya,Partha sampadam asurim.( Gitaji, 16, 4)

Which means" Pride, arrogance,conceit, anger,harshness and ignorance, these are the qualities of the demoniac person. "

Obviously, any person exhibiting the demoniac qualities need spiritual help immediately. If that person comes in contact with the holy book ( gitaji) through satsang, there is a great chance for him or her to have a change of heart. After all, in hinduism there are several examples of people, having bad qualities initially, developed divine qualities later on in life through devotional service.

Lord krishna says in gitaji,

"Mat karma krn mat paramo,Mad bhaktah sanga varjitah,Nirvairah sarva bhuteshu,Yah sa mam eti pandavah". ( Gita, 11, 55)

Which means,

"O dear. Arjuna , whoever engages in devotional service,works for. Me takes. Me as the supreme personality of godhead in one, s life and who is friendly to every one, that person, definitely comes to. Me. "

Love and friendhip towards every one is most important for spiritual progress.

Devotional service ( bhakti yoga) is the way to remove those demoniac qualities. It is the direct path to attain the lord.

Thank you. Hare krishna.

Prasad. Iragavarapu. M. D

--

Please read verses 18 to 21 of Chapter 16. We have to keep away form thisCompany; In case he happens to be our family member or a close relative,eventhen some means have to be found to keep some distance. Lastly recite the famousBhajan of Surdasji: Nirbal Ke Bal Rama especially 'Sur Shyama Krupase,Sab BalHare ko HARINAM. It does work; keep Faith.Jayantilal Shah

-------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that theyfurther help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

June 20, 2009

Sir, A Hindu man beat his wife until one day she was brain dead. He is alive andshe is dead. How could a person live with them self after doing something sobad? What does Gitaji say to explain such a thing?

Vimla Kisson------------------

NEW POSTING

Priy Vimla ji,

Pranams,

I cant get a thing in your Q "A hindu Man". Idont know what it means in respect of Q.

Now over to ny view on Q......

1. It is utmost necessary to read/listen/understand gitajiin since childhood so that bad sanskar can be warded off.

2. For a person not had opportunity to read/listen/understand gitajiin since childhood should immediately go in refuge of gitaji as soon as one comes to know what one is deprived of.

3. There is no matching solution to any prob of life as SHRIMADBHAGWADGITA gives to this world.

and I am proud to be one having such opportunity (I love U my lord)and thank god for his mercy on me and all the sadhaks.AS ABHIMAN JAYI JANI BHORE, MAIN SEWAK RAGHUPATI PATI MOREY.

Thanx.

Raja Gurdasani

----------

Respected Vimla Ji,Hare Krishna God Krishna's divine celestial song is Shri Gita. Gita itself is a femininegender. As a matter of fact, social evils like beating of wife and suchatrocities are never supported by Gita. All the divine attributes have beengiven by God Krishna to respected ladies or women world. Kirtih, ShrirvaakchNaarinam, smritirmedha , Dhritihi Kshama (Shri Gita Ch. 10 Verse 34). Shri Gitais repleted with the opulent divinities for Women. No one has ever advocated forwomen as Krishna did. Shri Hanuman Prasad Poddar's articles/books published byGita Press Gorakhpur may open our eyes. Wherever there is injustice to women,Shri Gita call upon all to fight against that spontaneously.Radhe Govind Bolo Radhe GovindaMahesh Sharma

----------------

-Shree Hari-

I had left my work for good, getting ready to move interstate, when out of the blue I received a phone call from an ex colleague. He said, "You've helped people by writing things. Look B*** has been arrested for attempted murder and he is on remand, I have been trying to help him, but he's unrepentant, he keepssaying the bitch deserves it, and he would do it all again... do you think maybe you could write something...".

B*** was a shining star where we worked, he was upwardly mobile. Here is the paradox of all the people at his level, he was the most considerate and gentle, very concerned about the welfare of those subordinate to him, all agreed that B*** was a gentleman.

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 14:

7: Know you Rajas to be of the nature of passion, the source of thirst (for sensual enjoyment) and attachment; it binds fast, Arjuna, the embodied one by attachment to action! 7

10: Now Sattwa prevails, Arjuna, having overpowered Rajas and Tamas; now Rajas, having overpowered Sattwa and Tamas; and now Tamas, having overpowered Sattwa and Rajas!

To the media he would be depicted as a monster by his acts, indeed understandable. But he was fare more than that, but he seemed to be at the mercy of the Gunas, as depicted at verse 10 above.

'How could a person live with them self after doing something so bad?' 13: Darkness, inertness, heedlessness and delusion—these arise when Tamas is

predominant, Arjuna! Gitaji does explain such paradoxes to me. These are my humble thoughts.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor-----------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Let me take Vyasji's gracious invitation to threadbare examination as best as I can.1 How can Antaratma (Conscience) of such a person doing such an act allow him to live peacefully or face the world ? What is the role of Conscience then ?Ans: Such a person is ignorance of Conscience. For him/her, Conscience doesn't exist. However, there is always an inner voice telling one "it is wrong to do so", when action is generally wrong. This is the role of Conscience. But It is ignored by "person", who is extremely selfish. Conscience is a death-like blow to Ego, a false sense of "me", so it will fight to survive. Nevertheless, this apparent person suffers for sure in different ways(Gahana Karmano Gatih)!2 Where is the justice of Paramatma prevailing if such a criminal breaths and lives freely "with no known consequences" ?How can evil enjoy in the Creation made by Paramatma with a conclusion - Vasudev Sarvam?Ans: If a person gets interested in knowing what is the purpose of Life, what is God, what is he/she? it is more than likely he/she will know "Vasudev Sarvam" down the road. Swamiji reminds us to accept this even provisionally in the beginning and see what happens. Once it is known and realized as such beyond doubts, "the person" ceases to be, and now he/she cannot do any harms to anyone, I mean it. "Paramatma" is all of us together, and more, He is not separately sitting somewhere in Heaven or Vaikunthainvolved in judging merits/de-merits of all. So we all need to Realize the Truth of what we are and be free from what happens to bodies, minds when fighting for justice as Paramatma! This is how Paramtma takes care of evility(yada yada hi Dharmasya... I reincarnate to reestablish dharma..).Evil can never and have never enjoyed, it only seems to get away for a while, but do they? (again Gahana karmano Gatih). When society eventually punishes such a one, that is also God given Intelligence at work, organized into law and order! For those who realizes Truth, there is no suffering! Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt----------Hari OmThe Divine words of Catherine Anderson truly give momentum to this Q - in my view- the BEST ever Q which has been put before this Divine Satsanga Forum ! It is a topic for ALL SADHAKS to comment upon. Consider Divine Sadhaks what she said so rightly and precisely :1 Gods Will be done and is done in all matters and it is not for us to go ahead of God not trusting our every step to Him/Do we question as devotees when we are disciplined? 2.Does the criminal truly enjoy life?3 We are Gods Only and even THIS (?) on last breath should be remembering God.Ashokji ! You have every right to expect more on this subject. How else otherwise "Dukhalayam" shall merge into "Vasudev Sarvam" ? If I adore Swamiji the most on any itch of mind, it is His answers to this and such Qs- precise, perfect and accurate answers- Divine Answers !! Thanks Sister Catherine ! I agree with you, Dear Ashokji , that much deliberations are warranted on this really critical Q ! Dukhalayam Ashashwatham !! Vasudev Sarvam ! I don't know whether Qs are accumulating or answers !!Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

-------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear sadhakas, Namaste,Pondering over question we know that Gods Will be done and is done in all matters and it is not for us to go ahead of God not trusting our every step to Him/Do we question as devotees when we are disciplined? Gita says when you live in peace with all family and going that extra mile will render an excellent atmosphere if all members follow not returning good for evil.So what does God say regarding those who do not perform his duty?.It is not our business how God shall handle this.Yes as Pratap Bhatt said use of correctional facilities with spiritual education is important and living in such a temple doing such wrong has its own recompense.Friends and family may wash hands of person and disassociate themselves from this one and forgiveness of society is many times null and void although as devotees we have not concerns of being of this world but being Gods Only.Does the criminal truly enjoy life? It is in being detached from anyone harmful and for all times when being in bad situation to put all memories on we are Gods Only and even this on last breath should be remembering God.with dearest love to all

catherine Anderson

-------

Ram Ram,I agree with the counter-questions of Sri Vyasji. Today's man is not satisfied with the answer "Gahana Karmano Gatih"!I expect more from Vyasji.Ashok Goenka-------"Api chedasuduracharo bhajate maam ananyabhak" Gita-9/30. There is always a path for everyone irrespective of his past deed. Niteesh Dubey

"Api chedasuduracharo bhajate maam ananyabhak" Gita-9/30. There is always a path for everyone irrespective of his past deed. Niteesh Dubey

-------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Vimlaji, if spouses who are in abusive relationship read Gita or scriptures or followed the likes of Swamiji, both the abusers and victioms would know how to deal with such situations before they become problematic! At least, for the rest of such spouses it is never too late to do so. Right action, be of amicable divorce or giving love and understanding to the abuser(s) before such extreme incidents take place is what Gita can teach us.

As a matter of fact, Arjuna dealt with similar situation of abuse by Kauravas, their own brothers, after listening to Bhagwaan Shri Krishna, by fighting a just war. This action came, not from an individual Arjuna, but from 'the understanding' of importance to act without being a doer, within the guidelines of Dharma, righteousness and duties, and for greater good. Here body-mind-intellect only carried out the execution of war efficiently, and impersonally upon receving clarity from the Lord. In the case you mentioned, the recourse now is best left to the police, and court while helping them in whatever ways friends and relatives can. The abuser is punished(not hated) only so others in society can be protected from such harms. Use of correctional facilities should incorporate elements of spiritual education so such abusers can put their lives in order. I have heard of benefits of meditation by the prisoners in one country where crimes were reduced to a great extent.Answers to societal problems of such nature are in the spiritual education early on making every child a better citizen. Gita being universal in its approach is but one such answer in preventing and dealing with them.Namaskar.........Pratap Bhatt

Hari Om

In a really short Q , Vimalaji has raised some of the core spiritual issues which make one wonder regarding the Creation viz this World. Issues are :

1 How can Antaratma (Conscience) of such a person doing such an act allow him to live peacefully or face the world ? What is the role of Conscience then ?

2 Where is the justice of Paramatma prevailing if such a criminal breaths and lives freely "with no known consequences" ? How can evil enjoy in the Creation made by Paramatma with a conclusion - Vasudev Sarvam?

The aforesaid are two real issues. How do we see that criminal still "enjoying" ?

The Q in fact is an example of what is referred in Gitaji as - "Gahana Karmano Gatih"!

It is a very good Q and let us threadbare examine and satify Vimalaji on spiritual grounds. Let views flow freely.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----

Dear Sadaks,Quoting from Geetha related points.Real sadaks point of View: Who is husband? Who is wife? Who is living? Who is dead?When Prahalad was ordered by his father to torched, he sang a sloka- Who is torches & who is being torched everything is Sriman NarayanaFrom Normal man point of view: The man thinking was wife is bad. The woman thinking was husband too bad. No human has right to cause pain to any living being says Geetha refers from Upanashids which is source of Vedas, and Vedas came from Sriman Narayana. Instead a man/woman can undergo suffering quitely without any reciprocation.

Vedic View:Such a man`s/woman`s total Karmas good and bad is transfered to the person responsible in causing sufferings. A human has to have no puniya or Paap to his/her account to liberate/Mukthi. The torches takes away all bad karmas by causing sufferings and children/relatives/friends who takes over the assets (movable or immovable) of the dead person takes away the puniyas. So that soul is totally free from all karmas and goes to Vaikunt or Kailash. Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan-

Dear sadhakas,Hare krishna.

This is in response to a question from a sadhaka.

Lord krishna describes in bhagavad gita the demoniac qualities.

"Dambho darpo bhimanas ca,Krodhah parushyam eva ca,Ajnanam cabhijatasya,Partha sampadam asurim.( Gitaji, 16, 4)

Which means" Pride, arrogance,conceit, anger,harshness and ignorance, these are the qualities of the demoniac person. "

Obviously, any person exhibiting the demoniac qualities need spiritual help immediately. If that person comes in contact with the holy book ( gitaji) through satsang, there is a great chance for him or her to have a change of heart. After all, in hinduism there are several examples of people, having bad qualities initially, developed divine qualities later on in life through devotional service.

Lord krishna says in gitaji,

"Mat karma krn mat paramo,Mad bhaktah sanga varjitah,Nirvairah sarva bhuteshu,Yah sa mam eti pandavah". ( Gita, 11, 55)

Which means,

"O dear. Arjuna , whoever engages in devotional service,works for. Me takes. Me as the supreme personality of godhead in one, s life and who is friendly to every one, that person, definitely comes to. Me. "

Love and friendhip towards every one is most important for spiritual progress.

Devotional service ( bhakti yoga) is the way to remove those demoniac qualities. It is the direct path to attain the lord.

Thank you. Hare krishna.

Prasad. Iragavarapu. M. D Dear sadhakas,Hare krishna.

This is in response to a question from a sadhaka.

Lord krishna describes in bhagavad gita the demoniac qualities.

"Dambho darpo bhimanas ca,Krodhah parushyam eva ca,Ajnanam cabhijatasya,Partha sampadam asurim.( Gitaji, 16, 4)

Which means" Pride, arrogance,conceit, anger,harshness and ignorance, these are the qualities of the demoniac person. "

Obviously, any person exhibiting the demoniac qualities need spiritual help immediately. If that person comes in contact with the holy book ( gitaji) through satsang, there is a great chance for him or her to have a change of heart. After all, in hinduism there are several examples of people, having bad qualities initially, developed divine qualities later on in life through devotional service.

Lord krishna says in gitaji,

"Mat karma krn mat paramo,Mad bhaktah sanga varjitah,Nirvairah sarva bhuteshu,Yah sa mam eti pandavah". ( Gita, 11, 55)

Which means,

"O dear. Arjuna , whoever engages in devotional service,works for. Me takes. Me as the supreme personality of godhead in one, s life and who is friendly to every one, that person, definitely comes to. Me. "

Love and friendhip towards every one is most important for spiritual progress.

Devotional service ( bhakti yoga) is the way to remove those demoniac qualities. It is the direct path to attain the lord.

Thank you. Hare krishna.

Prasad. Iragavarapu. M. D

--

Please read verses 18 to 21 of Chapter 16. We have to keep away form thisCompany; In case he happens to be our family member or a close relative,eventhen some means have to be found to keep some distance. Lastly recite the famousBhajan of Surdasji: Nirbal Ke Bal Rama especially 'Sur Shyama Krupase,Sab BalHare ko HARINAM. It does work; keep Faith.Jayantilal Shah

-------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that theyfurther help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

June 21, 2009

Sir, A Hindu man beat his wife until one day she was brain dead. He is alive andshe is dead. How could a person live with them self after doing something sobad? What does Gitaji say to explain such a thing?

Vimla Kisson------------------

NEW POSTING

"Api chedasuduracharo bhajate maam ananyabhak" Gita-9/30. There is always a path for everyone irrespective of his past deed. Niteesh Dubey

-----------------

Hari OmThanks Brother Mike for confirming our Rajaji's opening remarks that the problem is universal and not restricted to "Hindu" alone.Says Swamiji in His purport on BG 1:19:-QuoteThe hearts of those who are unrighteous, unjust and sinful, are weak, doubtful and full of fear. It is their sins , which weakens their hearts. Duryodhana and his group, tried their best to kill Pandavas , by any means- fair or foul. They usurped their empire and caused them much trouble. Thus, they stood for unrighteousness. So the sound of conchs of seven Akshauhini army of Pandavas rent their hearts, with a piercing pain.THIS INCIDENT, WARNS A STRIVER, that he should never have sinful dealings with his mind, speech or body, BECAUSE these weaken the heart and create fear, in it. For example, the creatures of the world, including the gods and the demons, were afraid of Raavana , the king of Lanka. But when he abducted Sita, he being terrified, looked here and there, to see if any one was watching him. (Manasa 3/28/4-5) UnquoteJai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

----------

HARI OMWhether Hindu or of any religious persuasion, you will get answers from Gitaji. Open your heart, with genuine desire to learn, be humble, lose false ego, then beseech Gitaji, not with a challenge or a dare, or with anger or arrogance, but with an earnest intention to truly seek answers. From sadhak post: "Hey Mere Naath (Father), Let me never forget You. Let me become completely absorbed within and without. Let me be totally immersed in You." Approach Gitaji in the same way:"Hey Mere Gitaji, let me never forget You, Gitaji; Let me become completely absorbed within and without you, Gitaji. Let me be totally immersed in You, Gitaji." Gitaji is Eternal. Gitaji is waiting for you with open arms. Gitaji just wants you to come with a pure mind to seek and Gitaji will yield her unending bounty of precious knowledge to you. Vivekananda ji warned us: "The prayers of those who are pure in mind and body will be answered, and those who are impure and yet try to teach religion to others will fail in the end." Don't just read Gitaji or preach Gitaji; instead, live Gitaji, love Gitaji, be one with Gitaji.Bhagavan gifts us Gitaji, no charge, no fee, it is gratis, by grace of Bhagavan. It is up to you to mine and dig deep into Gitaji to extract the precious pearls of Gitaji. Surrender to Gitaji, lay yourself bare before Gitaji, and put yourself at the mercy of Gitaji. Start today, it is an amazing and astounding journey to Divinity. BUT, IT IS A SELF-DISCOVERY - NO ONE CAN DO IT FOR YOU BUT YOURSELF. May Bhagavan Bless us all.Krishna S. Narinedath

-----------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Let me take Vyasji's gracious invitation to threadbare examination as best as I can.1 How can Antaratma (Conscience) of such a person doing such an act allow him to live peacefully or face the world ? What is the role of Conscience then ?Ans: Such a person is ignorance of Conscience. For him/her, Conscience doesn't exist. However, there is always an inner voice telling one "it is wrong to do so", when action is generally wrong. This is the role of Conscience. But It is ignored by "person", who is extremely selfish. Conscience is a death-like blow to Ego, a false sense of "me", so it will fight to survive. Nevertheless, this apparent person suffers for sure in different ways(Gahana Karmano Gatih)!2 Where is the justice of Paramatma prevailing if such a criminal breaths and lives freely "with no known consequences" ? How can evil enjoy in the Creation made by Paramatma with a conclusion - Vasudev Sarvam?Ans: If a person gets interested in knowing what is the purpose of Life, what is God, what is he/she? it is more than likely he/she will know "Vasudev Sarvam" down the road. Swamiji reminds us to accept this even provisionally in the beginning and see what happens. Once it is known and realized as such beyond doubts, "the person" ceases to be, and now he/she cannot do any harms to anyone, I mean it. "Paramatma" is all of us together, and more, He is not separately sitting somewhere in Heaven or Vaikuntha involved in judging merits/de-merits of all. So we all need to Realize the Truth of what we are and be free from what happens to bodies, minds when fighting for justice as Paramatma! This is how Paramtma takes care of evility(yada yada hi Dharmasya... I reincarnate to reestablish dharma..).Evil can never and have never enjoyed, it only seems to get away for a while, but do they? (again Gahana karmano Gatih). When society eventually punishes such a one, that is also God given Intelligence at work, organized into law and order! For those who realizes Truth, there is no suffering! Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt

-------------------

Interesting question. There are thousands of such questions arising from the roles that we play in Maya.

One is unable to understand if we keep working at good and bad level.......It is all Maya (illusion)....what appears is not what is.......

this is good and this is bad.....why is it so, why it is not so......If one remains at the level of the so called problem or bad situation, one can see no explaination.......

All these questions are easily answered or dissolved if one raises his or her level of consciousness by understanding the rules/wisdom of life and knowing who am I. One has to go beyond duality of good and bad, love and hate, likes and dislikes.....

Everyone has a level of consciousness and whatever he or she does is accordingly to the understanding of life and beliefs at that level. If one's beliefs change, if one's understanding of wisdom of life becomes better and deeper......he or she begins to experience and see the drama of life.......

Most of the time, biggest obstacle to our knowing ourselves and go to higher levels of consciousness is our education and beliefs.......unless we park these two somewhere and take a fresh look to the wisdom of lives and who we are, then the miracles begin to happen.......

Sushil Jain

"

--------------------

Priy Vimla ji,

Pranams,

I cant get a thing in your Q "A hindu Man". Idont know what it means in respect of Q.

Now over to ny view on Q......

1. It is utmost necessary to read/listen/understand gitajiin since childhood so that bad sanskar can be warded off.

2. For a person not had opportunity to read/listen/understand gitajiin since childhood should immediately go in refuge of gitaji as soon as one comes to know what one is deprived of.

3. There is no matching solution to any prob of life as SHRIMADBHAGWADGITA gives to this world.

and I am proud to be one having such opportunity (I love U my lord)and thank god for his mercy on me and all the sadhaks.AS ABHIMAN JAYI JANI BHORE, MAIN SEWAK RAGHUPATI PATI MOREY.

Thanx.

Raja Gurdasani

----------

Respected Vimla Ji,Hare Krishna

God Krishna's divine celestial song is Shri Gita. Gita itself is a femininegender. As a matter of fact, social evils like beating of wife and suchatrocities are never supported by Gita. All the divine attributes have beengiven by God Krishna to respected ladies or women world. Kirtih, ShrirvaakchNaarinam, smritirmedha , Dhritihi Kshama (Shri Gita Ch. 10 Verse 34). Shri Gitais repleted with the opulent divinities for Women. No one has ever advocated forwomen as Krishna did. Shri Hanuman Prasad Poddar's articles/books published byGita Press Gorakhpur may open our eyes. Wherever there is injustice to women,Shri Gita call upon all to fight against that spontaneously.

Radhe Govind Bolo Radhe Govinda

Mahesh Sharma

----------------

-Shree Hari-I had left my work for good, getting ready to move interstate, when out of the blue I received a phone call from an ex colleague. He said, "You've helped people by writing things. Look B*** has been arrested for attempted murder and he is on remand, I have been trying to help him, but he's unrepentant, he keepssaying the bitch deserves it, and he would do it all again... do you think maybe you could write something...".B*** was a shining star where we worked, he was upwardly mobile. Here is the paradox of all the people at his level, he was the most considerate and gentle, very concerned about the welfare of those subordinate to him, all agreed that B*** was a gentleman.Bhagavad Gita Chapter 14:7: Know you Rajas to be of the nature of passion, the source of thirst (for sensual enjoyment) and attachment; it binds fast, Arjuna, the embodied one by attachment to action! 710: Now Sattwa prevails, Arjuna, having overpowered Rajas and Tamas; now Rajas, having overpowered Sattwa and Tamas; and now Tamas, having overpowered Sattwa and Rajas!To the media he would be depicted as a monster by his acts, indeed understandable. But he was fare more than that, but he seemed to be at the mercy of the Gunas, as depicted at verse 10 above.'How could a person live with them self after doing something so bad?' 13: Darkness, inertness, heedlessness and delusion—these arise when Tamas ispredominant, Arjuna! Gitaji does explain such paradoxes to me. These are my humble thoughts.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor-----------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Let me take Vyasji's gracious invitation to threadbare examination as best as I can.1 How can Antaratma (Conscience) of such a person doing such an act allow him to live peacefully or face the world ? What is the role of Conscience then ?Ans: Such a person is ignorance of Conscience. For him/her, Conscience doesn't exist. However, there is always an inner voice telling one "it is wrong to do so", when action is generally wrong. This is the role of Conscience. But It is ignored by "person", who is extremely selfish. Conscience is a death-like blow to Ego, a false sense of "me", so it will fight to survive. Nevertheless, this apparent person suffers for sure in different ways(Gahana Karmano Gatih)!2 Where is the justice of Paramatma prevailing if such a criminal breaths and lives freely "with no known consequences" ?How can evil enjoy in the Creation made by Paramatma with a conclusion - Vasudev Sarvam?Ans: If a person gets interested in knowing what is the purpose of Life, what is God, what is he/she? it is more than likely he/she will know "Vasudev Sarvam"down the road. Swamiji reminds us to accept this even provisionally in the beginning and see what happens. Once it is known and realized as such beyond doubts, "the person" ceases to be, and now he/she cannot do any harms to anyone, I mean it. "Paramatma" is all of us together, and more, He is not separately sitting somewhere in Heaven or Vaikunthainvolved in judging merits/de-merits of all. So we all need to Realize the Truth of what we are and be free from what happens to bodies, minds when fighting for justice as Paramatma! This is how Paramtma takes care of evility(yada yada hi Dharmasya... I reincarnate to reestablish dharma..).Evil can never and have never enjoyed, it only seems to get away for a while, but do they? (again Gahana karmano Gatih). When society eventually punishes such a one, that is also God given Intelligence at work, organized into law and order! For those who realizes Truth, there is no suffering! Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt ----------Hari OmThe Divine words of Catherine Anderson truly give momentum to this Q - in my view- the BEST ever Q which has been put before this Divine Satsanga Forum ! It is a topic for ALL SADHAKS to comment upon. Consider Divine Sadhaks what she said so rightly and precisely :1 Gods Will be done and is done in all matters and it is not for us to go ahead of God not trusting our every step to Him/Do we question as devotees when we are disciplined? 2.Does the criminal truly enjoy life?3 We are Gods Only and even THIS (?) on last breath should be remembering God.Ashokji ! You have every right to expect more on this subject. How else otherwise "Dukhalayam" shall merge into "Vasudev Sarvam" ? If I adore Swamiji the most on any itch of mind, it is His answers to this and such Qs- precise, perfect and accurate answers- Divine Answers !! Thanks Sister Catherine ! I agree with you, Dear Ashokji , that much deliberations are warranted on this really critical Q ! Dukhalayam Ashashwatham !! Vasudev Sarvam ! I don't know whether Qs are accumulating or answers !!Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

-------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear sadhakas, Namaste,Pondering over question we know that Gods Will be done and is done in all matters and it is not for us to go ahead of God not trusting our every step to Him/Do we question as devotees when we are disciplined? Gita says when you live in peace with all family and going that extra mile will render an excellent atmosphere if all members follow not returning good for evil.So what does God say regarding those who do not perform his duty?.It is not our business how God shall handle this.Yes as Pratap Bhatt said use of correctional facilities with spiritual education is important and living in such a temple doing such wrong has its own recompense.Friends and family may wash hands of person and disassociate themselves from this one and forgiveness of society is many times null and void although as devotees we have not concerns of being of this world but being Gods Only.Does the criminal truly enjoy life? It is in being detached from anyone harmful and for all times when being in bad situation to put all memories on we are Gods Only and even this on last breath should be remembering God.with dearest love to all

catherine Anderson

-------

Ram Ram,I agree with the counter-questions of Sri Vyasji. Today's man is not satisfied with the answer "Gahana Karmano Gatih"!I expect more from Vyasji.Ashok Goenka-------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Vimlaji, if spouses who are in abusive relationship read Gita or scriptures or followed the likes of Swamiji, both the abusers and victioms would know how to deal with such situations before they become problematic! At least, for the rest of such spouses it is never too late to do so. Right action, be of amicable divorce or giving love and understanding to the abuser(s) before such extreme incidents take place is what Gita can teach us.

As a matter of fact, Arjuna dealt with similar situation of abuse by Kauravas, their own brothers, after listening to Bhagwaan Shri Krishna, by fighting a just war. This action came, not from an individual Arjuna, but from 'the understanding' of importance to act without being a doer, within the guidelines of Dharma, righteousness and duties, and for greater good. Here body-mind-intellect only carried out the execution of war efficiently, and impersonally upon receving clarity from the Lord. In the case you mentioned, the recourse now is best left to the police, and court while helping them in whatever ways friends and relatives can. The abuser is punished(not hated) only so others in society can be protected from such harms. Use of correctional facilities should incorporate elements of spiritual education so such abusers can put their lives in order. I have heard of benefits of meditation by the prisoners in one country where crimes were reduced to a great extent.Answers to societal problems of such nature are in the spiritual education early on making every child a better citizen. Gita being universal in its approach is but one such answer in preventing and dealing with them.Namaskar.........Pratap Bhatt

Hari Om

In a really short Q , Vimalaji has raised some of the core spiritual issues which make one wonder regarding the Creation viz this World. Issues are :

1 How can Antaratma (Conscience) of such a person doing such an act allow him to live peacefully or face the world ? What is the role of Conscience then ?

2 Where is the justice of Paramatma prevailing if such a criminal breaths and lives freely "with no known consequences" ? How can evil enjoy in the Creation made by Paramatma with a conclusion - Vasudev Sarvam?

The aforesaid are two real issues. How do we see that criminal still "enjoying" ?

The Q in fact is an example of what is referred in Gitaji as - "Gahana Karmano Gatih"!

It is a very good Q and let us threadbare examine and satify Vimalaji on spiritual grounds. Let views flow freely.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----

Dear Sadaks,Quoting from Geetha related points.Real sadaks point of View: Who is husband? Who is wife? Who is living? Who is dead?When Prahalad was ordered by his father to torched, he sang a sloka- Who is torches & who is being torched everything is Sriman NarayanaFrom Normal man point of view: The man thinking was wife is bad. The woman thinking was husband too bad. No human has right to cause pain to any living being says Geetha refers from Upanashids which is source of Vedas, and Vedas came from Sriman Narayana. Instead a man/woman can undergo suffering quitely without any reciprocation.

Vedic View:Such a man`s/woman`s total Karmas good and bad is transfered to the person responsible in causing sufferings. A human has to have no puniya or Paap to his/her account to liberate/Mukthi. The torches takes away all bad karmas by causing sufferings and children/relatives/friends who takes over the assets (movable or immovable) of the dead person takes away the puniyas. So that soul is totally free from all karmas and goes to Vaikunt or Kailash. Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan-

Dear sadhakas,Hare krishna.

This is in response to a question from a sadhaka.

Lord krishna describes in bhagavad gita the demoniac qualities.

"Dambho darpo bhimanas ca,Krodhah parushyam eva ca,Ajnanam cabhijatasya,Partha sampadam asurim.( Gitaji, 16, 4)

Which means" Pride, arrogance,conceit, anger,harshness and ignorance, these are the qualities of the demoniac person. "

Obviously, any person exhibiting the demoniac qualities need spiritual help immediately. If that person comes in contact with the holy book ( gitaji) through satsang, there is a great chance for him or her to have a change of heart. After all, in hinduism there are several examples of people, having bad qualities initially, developed divine qualities later on in life through devotional service.

Lord krishna says in gitaji,

"Mat karma krn mat paramo,Mad bhaktah sanga varjitah,Nirvairah sarva bhuteshu,Yah sa mam eti pandavah". ( Gita, 11, 55)

Which means,

"O dear. Arjuna , whoever engages in devotional service,works for. Me takes. Me as the supreme personality of godhead in one, s life and who is friendly to every one, that person, definitely comes to. Me. "

Love and friendhip towards every one is most important for spiritual progress.

Devotional service ( bhakti yoga) is the way to remove those demoniac qualities. It is the direct path to attain the lord.

Thank you. Hare krishna.

Prasad. Iragavarapu. M. D Dear sadhakas,Hare krishna.

This is in response to a question from a sadhaka.

Lord krishna describes in bhagavad gita the demoniac qualities.

"Dambho darpo bhimanas ca,Krodhah parushyam eva ca,Ajnanam cabhijatasya,Partha sampadam asurim.( Gitaji, 16, 4)

Which means" Pride, arrogance,conceit, anger,harshness and ignorance, these are the qualities of the demoniac person. "

Obviously, any person exhibiting the demoniac qualities need spiritual help immediately. If that person comes in contact with the holy book ( gitaji) through satsang, there is a great chance for him or her to have a change of heart. After all, in hinduism there are several examples of people, having bad qualities initially, developed divine qualities later on in life through devotional service.

Lord krishna says in gitaji,

"Mat karma krn mat paramo,Mad bhaktah sanga varjitah,Nirvairah sarva bhuteshu,Yah sa mam eti pandavah". ( Gita, 11, 55)

Which means,

"O dear. Arjuna , whoever engages in devotional service,works for. Me takes. Me as the supreme personality of godhead in one, s life and who is friendly to every one, that person, definitely comes to. Me. "

Love and friendhip towards every one is most important for spiritual progress.

Devotional service ( bhakti yoga) is the way to remove those demoniac qualities. It is the direct path to attain the lord.

Thank you. Hare krishna.

Prasad. Iragavarapu. M. D

--

Please read verses 18 to 21 of Chapter 16. We have to keep away form thisCompany; In case he happens to be our family member or a close relative,eventhen some means have to be found to keep some distance. Lastly recite the famousBhajan of Surdasji: Nirbal Ke Bal Rama especially 'Sur Shyama Krupase,Sab BalHare ko HARINAM. It does work; keep Faith.Jayantilal Shah

-------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that theyfurther help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

June 25, 2009

Sir, A Hindu man beat his wife until one day she was brain dead. He is alive andshe is dead. How could a person live with them self after doing something sobad? What does Gitaji say to explain such a thing?

Vimla Kisson------------------

NEW POSTING

my dandavat pranams to all in this forum....

I have a few thoughts on the question at hand, and appreciate the opportunity to express them. Firstly, Gita states that what is night for all beings, is the time of awakening for the introspective sage, and what is the time of awakening for all beings, is night for the same instrospective sage. So, when some say, "How does the man who murders his wife (or any other crime.....eating cows, animals, intoxication, illicit sexual acts, etc) go on enjoying life? " One who is situated in knowledge knows that the "day" of the materialist is truly night.....their enjoyment is on a level of illusion. Why should those who have higher transcendental vision be fooled to think that a sinner is enjoying? Those who are absorbed in demoniac activities are simply toys of the illusory enegy. True enjoyment is not on the level of sense enjoyment, vengence, or any material emotion.....if those who are committing sins daily knew the suffering which awaited them in return for their actions, would they be able to smile anymore?

I have an arguement, or rather a clarification, of the statement that "all is the desire of the Lord". True, it is the desire of the Lord that all jiva souls have free will. But His desire is that their free will take them to pious, devotional loving works rather than murder, or other cruelties. So, it is not wrong to say that all is the desire of the Lord, but to conclude that the Lord wanted the woman to be murdered, that is not true. We know there is the law of karma, which gives allowance that PERHAPS she had done the same to him in a previous life, and therefore the reaction was that she had to suffer the same....I do not know if this was the case. Only one who is truly able to see past, present, and future could say.....but regardless, it is greater love to forgive anothers sins and allow them to go on progressing in this world toward pure love of God. Killing another immediately stops that progression.....to be started again after a long journey through the cycle of samsara.....rebirth.....best that we all learn to give a mood and genuine example of love and affection to all. Sadly, sometimes the people we live closest to receive the brunt of the most ignorant depths of our consciousness, and the least amount of forgiveness and sensitivity.

Dandavat pranams. Mahalaksmi Dasi

--

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Swamiji says that both "Justice" and "Compassion" cannot remain in one place at the same time in worldly affairs. But the laws of Bhagwaan have both justice and it is filled with great compassion. In his system of justice, the vilest of sinners can even attain salvation, if they turn towards Him. (Gita 9:30).

Justice will be done, through the arrival of favorable and unfavorable situations and circumstances, according toone's actions, that is Bhagwaan's justice, even though it may not seem like that right now. He who does evil actions, Bhagwaan by sending him to hell and birth in the 8.4 million wombs (of various species), that is how Bhagwaan's justice works; and there causing him to experience the suffering, Bhagwaan purifies him, and draws the evil doer towards Himself - This is His compassion.

(God) creates the type of condition and intellect, whereby an evil doer will suffer or incur losses at the right moment in time. It is part of his justice system. Meera Das, Ram Ram

-----------------

PRIOR POSTING

"Api chedasuduracharo bhajate maam ananyabhak" Gita-9/30. There is always a path for everyone irrespective of his past deed. Niteesh Dubey

-----------------

Hari Om

Thanks Brother Mike for confirming our Rajaji's opening remarks that the problem is universal and not restricted to "Hindu" alone.

Says Swamiji in His purport on BG 1:19:-

Quote

The hearts of those who are unrighteous, unjust and sinful, are weak, doubtful and full of fear. It is their sins , which weakens their hearts. Duryodhana and his group, tried their best to kill Pandavas , by any means- fair or foul. They usurped their empire and caused them much trouble. Thus, they stood for unrighteousness. So the sound of conchs of seven Akshauhini army of Pandavas rent their hearts, with a piercing pain.

THIS INCIDENT, WARNS A STRIVER, that he should never have sinful dealings with his mind, speech or body, BECAUSE these weaken the heart and create fear, in it. For example, the creatures of the world, including the gods and the demons, were afraid of Raavana , the king of Lanka. But when he abducted Sita, he being terrified, looked here and there, to see if any one was watching him. (Manasa 3/28/4-5)

Unquote

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------

HARI OM

Whether Hindu or of any religious persuasion, you will get answers from Gitaji. Open your heart, with genuine desire to learn, be humble, lose false ego, then beseech Gitaji, not with a challenge or a dare, or with anger or arrogance, but with an earnest intention to truly seek answers.

From sadhak post: "Hey Mere Naath (Father), Let me never forget You. Let me become completely absorbed within and without. Let me be totally immersed in You." Approach Gitaji in the same way:"Hey Mere Gitaji, let me never forget You, Gitaji; Let me become completely absorbed within and without you, Gitaji. Let me be totally immersed in You, Gitaji."

Gitaji is Eternal. Gitaji is waiting for you with open arms. Gitaji just wants you to come with a pure mind to seek and Gitaji will yield her unending bounty of precious knowledge to you.

Vivekananda ji warned us: "The prayers of those who are pure in mind and body will be answered, and those who are impure and yet try to teach religion to others will fail in the end." Don't just read Gitaji or preach Gitaji; instead, live Gitaji, love Gitaji, be one with Gitaji.

Bhagavan gifts us Gitaji, no charge, no fee, it is gratis, by grace of Bhagavan. It is up to you to mine and dig deep into Gitaji to extract the precious pearls of Gitaji. Surrender to Gitaji, lay yourself bare before Gitaji, and put yourself at the mercy of Gitaji. Start today, it is an amazing and astounding journey to Divinity.

BUT, IT IS A SELF-DISCOVERY - NO ONE CAN DO IT FOR YOU BUT YOURSELF.

May Bhagavan Bless us all.

Krishna S. Narinedath

-----------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Let me take Vyasji's gracious invitation to threadbare examination as best as I can.

1 How can Antaratma (Conscience) of such a person doing such an act allow him to live peacefully or face the world ? What is the role of Conscience then ?

Ans: Such a person is ignorance of Conscience. For him/her, Conscience doesn't exist. However, there is always an inner voice telling one "it is wrong to do so", when action is generally wrong. This is the role of Conscience. But It is ignored by "person", who is extremely selfish. Conscience is a death-like blow to Ego, a false sense of "me", so it will fight to survive. Nevertheless, this apparent person suffers for sure in different ways(Gahana Karmano Gatih)!

2 Where is the justice of Paramatma prevailing if such a criminal breaths and lives freely "with no known consequences" ? How can evil enjoy in the Creation made by Paramatma with a conclusion - Vasudev Sarvam?

Ans: If a person gets interested in knowing what is the purpose of Life, what is God, what is he/she? it is more than likely he/she will know "Vasudev Sarvam" down the road. Swamiji reminds us to accept this even provisionally in the beginning and see what happens. Once it is known and realized as such beyond doubts, "the person" ceases to be, and now he/she cannot do any harms to anyone, I mean it. "Paramatma" is all of us together, and more, He is not separately sitting somewhere in Heaven or Vaikuntha involved in judging merits/de-merits of all. So we all need to Realize the Truth of what we are and be free from what happens to bodies, minds when fighting for justice as Paramatma! This is how Paramtma takes care of evility(yada yada hi Dharmasya... I reincarnate to reestablish dharma..).Evil can never and have never enjoyed, it only seems to get away for a while, but do they? (again Gahana karmano Gatih). When society eventually punishes such a one, that is also God given Intelligence at work, organized into law and order! For those who realizes Truth, there is no suffering! Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt

-------------------

Interesting question. There are thousands of such questions arising from the roles that we play in Maya. One is unable to understand if we keep working at good and bad level.......It is all Maya (illusion)....what appears is not what is....... this is good and this is bad.....why is it so, why it is not so......If one remains at the level of the so called problem or bad situation, one can see no explaination....... All these questions are easily answered or dissolved if one raises his or her level of consciousness by understanding the rules/wisdom of life and knowing who am I. One has to go beyond duality of good and bad, love and hate, likes and dislikes..... Everyone has a level of consciousness and whatever he or she does is accordingly to the understanding of life and beliefs at that level. If one's beliefs change, if one's understanding of wisdom of life becomes better and deeper......he or she begins to experience and see the drama of life....... Most of the time, biggest obstacle to our knowing ourselves and go to higher levels of consciousness is our education and beliefs.......unless we park these two somewhere and take a fresh look to the wisdom of lives and who we are, then the miracles begin to happen.......Sushil Jain "

--------------------

Priy Vimla ji,

Pranams,

I cant get a thing in your Q "A hindu Man". Idont know what it means in respect of Q.

Now over to ny view on Q......

1. It is utmost necessary to read/listen/understand gitajiin since childhood so that bad sanskar can be warded off.

2. For a person not had opportunity to read/listen/understand gitajiin since childhood should immediately go in refuge of gitaji as soon as one comes to know what one is deprived of.

3. There is no matching solution to any prob of life as SHRIMADBHAGWADGITA gives to this world.

and I am proud to be one having such opportunity (I love U my lord)and thank god for his mercy on me and all the sadhaks.AS ABHIMAN JAYI JANI BHORE, MAIN SEWAK RAGHUPATI PATI MOREY.

Thanx.

Raja Gurdasani

----------

Respected Vimla Ji,Hare Krishna

God Krishna's divine celestial song is Shri Gita. Gita itself is a femininegender. As a matter of fact, social evils like beating of wife and suchatrocities are never supported by Gita. All the divine attributes have beengiven by God Krishna to respected ladies or women world. Kirtih, ShrirvaakchNaarinam, smritirmedha , Dhritihi Kshama (Shri Gita Ch. 10 Verse 34). Shri Gitais repleted with the opulent divinities for Women. No one has ever advocated forwomen as Krishna did. Shri Hanuman Prasad Poddar's articles/books published byGita Press Gorakhpur may open our eyes. Wherever there is injustice to women,Shri Gita call upon all to fight against that spontaneously.

Radhe Govind Bolo Radhe Govinda

Mahesh Sharma

----------------

-Shree Hari-I had left my work for good, getting ready to move interstate, when out of the blue I received a phone call from an ex colleague. He said, "You've helped people by writing things. Look B*** has been arrested for attempted murder and he is on remand, I have been trying to help him, but he's unrepentant, he keepssaying the bitch deserves it, and he would do it all again... do you think maybe you could write something...".B*** was a shining star where we worked, he was upwardly mobile. Here is the paradox of all the people at his level, he was the most considerate and gentle, very concerned about the welfare of those subordinate to him, all agreed that B*** was a gentleman.Bhagavad Gita Chapter 14:7: Know you Rajas to be of the nature of passion, the source of thirst (for sensual enjoyment) and attachment; it binds fast, Arjuna, the embodied one by attachment to action! 710: Now Sattwa prevails, Arjuna, having overpowered Rajas and Tamas; now Rajas, having overpowered Sattwa and Tamas; and now Tamas, having overpowered Sattwa and Rajas!To the media he would be depicted as a monster by his acts, indeed understandable. But he was fare more than that, but he seemed to be at the mercy of the Gunas, as depicted at verse 10 above.'How could a person live with them self after doing something so bad?' 13: Darkness, inertness, heedlessness and delusion—these arise when Tamas ispredominant, Arjuna! Gitaji does explain such paradoxes to me. These are my humble thoughts.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor-----------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Let me take Vyasji's gracious invitation to threadbare examination as best as I can.1 How can Antaratma (Conscience) of such a person doing such an act allow him to live peacefully or face the world ? What is the role of Conscience then ?Ans: Such a person is ignorance of Conscience. For him/her, Conscience doesn't exist. However, there is always an inner voice telling one "it is wrong to do so", when action is generally wrong. This is the role of Conscience. But It is ignored by "person", who is extremely selfish. Conscience is a death-like blow to Ego, a false sense of "me", so it will fight to survive. Nevertheless, this apparent person suffers for sure in different ways(Gahana Karmano Gatih)!2 Where is the justice of Paramatma prevailing if such a criminal breaths and lives freely "with no known consequences" ?How can evil enjoy in the Creation made by Paramatma with a conclusion - Vasudev Sarvam?Ans: If a person gets interested in knowing what is the purpose of Life, what is God, what is he/she? it is more than likely he/she will know "Vasudev Sarvam"down the road. Swamiji reminds us to accept this even provisionally in the beginning and see what happens. Once it is known and realized as such beyond doubts, "the person" ceases to be, and now he/she cannot do any harms to anyone, I mean it. "Paramatma" is all of us together, and more, He is not separately sitting somewhere in Heaven or Vaikunthainvolved in judging merits/de-merits of all. So we all need to Realize the Truth of what we are and be free from what happens to bodies, minds when fighting for justice as Paramatma! This is how Paramtma takes care of evility(yada yada hi Dharmasya... I reincarnate to reestablish dharma..).Evil can never and have never enjoyed, it only seems to get away for a while, but do they? (again Gahana karmano Gatih). When society eventually punishes such a one, that is also God given Intelligence at work, organized into law and order! For those who realizes Truth, there is no suffering! Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt ----------Hari OmThe Divine words of Catherine Anderson truly give momentum to this Q - in my view- the BEST ever Q which has been put before this Divine Satsanga Forum ! It is a topic for ALL SADHAKS to comment upon. Consider Divine Sadhaks what she said so rightly and precisely :1 Gods Will be done and is done in all matters and it is not for us to go ahead of God not trusting our every step to Him/Do we question as devotees when we are disciplined? 2.Does the criminal truly enjoy life?3 We are Gods Only and even THIS (?) on last breath should be remembering God.Ashokji ! You have every right to expect more on this subject. How else otherwise "Dukhalayam" shall merge into "Vasudev Sarvam" ? If I adore Swamiji the most on any itch of mind, it is His answers to this and such Qs- precise, perfect and accurate answers- Divine Answers !! Thanks Sister Catherine ! I agree with you, Dear Ashokji , that much deliberations are warranted on this really critical Q ! Dukhalayam Ashashwatham !! Vasudev Sarvam ! I don't know whether Qs are accumulating or answers !!Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

-------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear sadhakas, Namaste,Pondering over question we know that Gods Will be done and is done in all matters and it is not for us to go ahead of God not trusting our every step to Him/Do we question as devotees when we are disciplined? Gita says when you live in peace with all family and going that extra mile will render an excellent atmosphere if all members follow not returning good for evil.So what does God say regarding those who do not perform his duty?.It is not our business how God shall handle this.Yes as Pratap Bhatt said use of correctional facilities with spiritual education is important and living in such a temple doing such wrong has its own recompense.Friends and family may wash hands of person and disassociate themselves from this one and forgiveness of society is many times null and void although as devotees we have not concerns of being of this world but being Gods Only.Does the criminal truly enjoy life? It is in being detached from anyone harmful and for all times when being in bad situation to put all memories on we are Gods Only and even this on last breath should be remembering God.with dearest love to all

catherine Anderson

-------

Ram Ram,I agree with the counter-questions of Sri Vyasji. Today's man is not satisfied with the answer "Gahana Karmano Gatih"!I expect more from Vyasji.Ashok Goenka-------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Vimlaji, if spouses who are in abusive relationship read Gita or scriptures or followed the likes of Swamiji, both the abusers and victioms would know how to deal with such situations before they become problematic! At least, for the rest of such spouses it is never too late to do so. Right action, be of amicable divorce or giving love and understanding to the abuser(s) before such extreme incidents take place is what Gita can teach us.

As a matter of fact, Arjuna dealt with similar situation of abuse by Kauravas, their own brothers, after listening to Bhagwaan Shri Krishna, by fighting a just war. This action came, not from an individual Arjuna, but from 'the understanding' of importance to act without being a doer, within the guidelines of Dharma, righteousness and duties, and for greater good. Here body-mind-intellect only carried out the execution of war efficiently, and impersonally upon receving clarity from the Lord. In the case you mentioned, the recourse now is best left to the police, and court while helping them in whatever ways friends and relatives can. The abuser is punished(not hated) only so others in society can be protected from such harms. Use of correctional facilities should incorporate elements of spiritual education so such abusers can put their lives in order. I have heard of benefits of meditation by the prisoners in one country where crimes were reduced to a great extent.Answers to societal problems of such nature are in the spiritual education early on making every child a better citizen. Gita being universal in its approach is but one such answer in preventing and dealing with them.Namaskar.........Pratap Bhatt

Hari Om

In a really short Q , Vimalaji has raised some of the core spiritual issues which make one wonder regarding the Creation viz this World. Issues are :

1 How can Antaratma (Conscience) of such a person doing such an act allow him to live peacefully or face the world ? What is the role of Conscience then ?

2 Where is the justice of Paramatma prevailing if such a criminal breaths and lives freely "with no known consequences" ? How can evil enjoy in the Creation made by Paramatma with a conclusion - Vasudev Sarvam?

The aforesaid are two real issues. How do we see that criminal still "enjoying" ?

The Q in fact is an example of what is referred in Gitaji as - "Gahana Karmano Gatih"!

It is a very good Q and let us threadbare examine and satify Vimalaji on spiritual grounds. Let views flow freely.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----

Dear Sadaks,Quoting from Geetha related points.Real sadaks point of View: Who is husband? Who is wife? Who is living? Who is dead?When Prahalad was ordered by his father to torched, he sang a sloka- Who is torches & who is being torched everything is Sriman NarayanaFrom Normal man point of view: The man thinking was wife is bad. The woman thinking was husband too bad. No human has right to cause pain to any living being says Geetha refers from Upanashids which is source of Vedas, and Vedas came from Sriman Narayana. Instead a man/woman can undergo suffering quitely without any reciprocation.

Vedic View:Such a man`s/woman`s total Karmas good and bad is transfered to the person responsible in causing sufferings. A human has to have no puniya or Paap to his/her account to liberate/Mukthi. The torches takes away all bad karmas by causing sufferings and children/relatives/friends who takes over the assets (movable or immovable) of the dead person takes away the puniyas. So that soul is totally free from all karmas and goes to Vaikunt or Kailash. Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan-

Dear sadhakas,Hare krishna.

This is in response to a question from a sadhaka.

Lord krishna describes in bhagavad gita the demoniac qualities.

"Dambho darpo bhimanas ca,Krodhah parushyam eva ca,Ajnanam cabhijatasya,Partha sampadam asurim.( Gitaji, 16, 4)

Which means" Pride, arrogance,conceit, anger,harshness and ignorance, these are the qualities of the demoniac person. "

Obviously, any person exhibiting the demoniac qualities need spiritual help immediately. If that person comes in contact with the holy book ( gitaji) through satsang, there is a great chance for him or her to have a change of heart. After all, in hinduism there are several examples of people, having bad qualities initially, developed divine qualities later on in life through devotional service.

Lord krishna says in gitaji,

"Mat karma krn mat paramo,Mad bhaktah sanga varjitah,Nirvairah sarva bhuteshu,Yah sa mam eti pandavah". ( Gita, 11, 55)

Which means,

"O dear. Arjuna , whoever engages in devotional service,works for. Me takes. Me as the supreme personality of godhead in one, s life and who is friendly to every one, that person, definitely comes to. Me. "

Love and friendhip towards every one is most important for spiritual progress.

Devotional service ( bhakti yoga) is the way to remove those demoniac qualities. It is the direct path to attain the lord.

Thank you. Hare krishna.

Prasad. Iragavarapu. M. D Dear sadhakas,Hare krishna.

This is in response to a question from a sadhaka.

Lord krishna describes in bhagavad gita the demoniac qualities.

"Dambho darpo bhimanas ca,Krodhah parushyam eva ca,Ajnanam cabhijatasya,Partha sampadam asurim.( Gitaji, 16, 4)

Which means" Pride, arrogance,conceit, anger,harshness and ignorance, these are the qualities of the demoniac person. "

Obviously, any person exhibiting the demoniac qualities need spiritual help immediately. If that person comes in contact with the holy book ( gitaji) through satsang, there is a great chance for him or her to have a change of heart. After all, in hinduism there are several examples of people, having bad qualities initially, developed divine qualities later on in life through devotional service.

Lord krishna says in gitaji,

"Mat karma krn mat paramo,Mad bhaktah sanga varjitah,Nirvairah sarva bhuteshu,Yah sa mam eti pandavah". ( Gita, 11, 55)

Which means,

"O dear. Arjuna , whoever engages in devotional service,works for. Me takes. Me as the supreme personality of godhead in one, s life and who is friendly to every one, that person, definitely comes to. Me. "

Love and friendhip towards every one is most important for spiritual progress.

Devotional service ( bhakti yoga) is the way to remove those demoniac qualities. It is the direct path to attain the lord.

Thank you. Hare krishna.

Prasad. Iragavarapu. M. D

--

Please read verses 18 to 21 of Chapter 16. We have to keep away form thisCompany; In case he happens to be our family member or a close relative,eventhen some means have to be found to keep some distance. Lastly recite the famousBhajan of Surdasji: Nirbal Ke Bal Rama especially 'Sur Shyama Krupase,Sab BalHare ko HARINAM. It does work; keep Faith.Jayantilal Shah

-------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that theyfurther help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.

MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

Sign In

What is Gitaji's Explanation for Ruthless Crimes with no known Consequences

Recommended Posts

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Join the conversation

Support the Ashram

Join Groups

Top Downloads