Guest guest Posted July 26, 2009 Report Share Posted July 26, 2009 Shree Hari Ram RamThank you all for your notes on this Topic. None of the notes received pointedout specific statement in Swamiji's message that are incorrect. The basis ofSwamiji's messages are ONLY the scriptures. All He has done in this message istranslated the "shlokas" from the scriptures. So if there is a disagreement,then it is disagreeing with what is written in the scriptures. Also, Swamiji'sexperience "anubhava" with millions of sadhaks during the course of His life,leads him to make these statements. When you express disagreement, please do so clearly, by noting the specificpoints of disagreements from Swamiji's message, NOT GENERALITIES or opinions.PLEASE REREAD SWAMIJI'S MESSAGE AT THE END OF THIS POSTINGGita Talk Moderators,Ram Ram - NEW POSTING The essence of book "Kya guru ke bina mukti nahi" is to accept Krishna who resides within our heart as the eternal guru. He from within gives us vivek to discriminate between right and wrong and take right decisions etc. We should take shelter of the guru within and take knowledge from external sources who are mainfestation or representation of guru within. For example, Krishna arranged for me to read Swamiji's books and while I read his books or hear his lectures, Krishna gives me knowledge and understanding from within. So, the true guru is Krishna Himself.BG 9.32 - Those who takes refuge in Me attain the supreme goal.According to Swamiji, taking refuge means that accepting that our self belongs to Krishna and Krishna is ours. It also means to see this world as separate from us and not to give importance to this world. So, women can always take shelter of Krishna within and attain the goal of human life. This applies to men and women both.This world and the names "upadhi" of this world are not us. Swamiji tells us that don't give importance to this external world. That is his real teaching.Interaction with matter i.e. living in this world and activities in this world change with time, place and circumstances. For example, the girls in US are raised in different way than the traditional Indian girl. The social rules will change for them. Western girls interact with men throughout their whole life. "Not interacting with men" does not apply to them. I will need to enclose my daughter in a house to do that. What I can do is to teach my daughter that Sita Ram are Her parents and they are hers. She is not this body and she is part of Sita Ram. Once she understands this fact and develops mineness to Ram, other things will be automatically taken care of.Swamiji gives the story of saint who was going in the boat on the river with other passengers. Due to storm, the boat started to drown. The saint started to put water in the boat. The boat managed to escape the storm and reached safe spot. Then, the saint started to remove the water out of the boat. The passengers were upset that he was doing the opposite of what he was supposed to do and he could have drowned the boat. The saint explained that he thought that Bhagavan wanted to drown the boat so he was helping Bhagavan's work. Later on, he realized that Bhagavan saved the boat and Bhagavan did not want to drown it so he started to help in removing the water out of the boat. Unknowingly we may be doing incorrect actions like this saint, yet we are Krishna's. What matters is our inner attitute! If we internally accept that Krishna is ours and we are Krishna's, then our work is complete. Gaurav Mittal ----- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji has clearly said for women, that they cannot easily remain safe from the world these days True Gurus and associations are very difficult to find . They are simply not available these days. Very few Gurus are even talking about the True Essence (Tattva). The few things that have touched me personally from Swamiji's messages on the subject of Guru, which applies to both men and women are - 1) For salvation, one's own inner aim and intense longing is more important than anything else. i.e. When a sishya (including a woman) is not hungry within, then no Guru can make him/her attain salvation 2) The man/women who respects and gives importance to his/her own vivek "Discrimination" (given by Bhagavaan Himself), and utilizes it well, attains Self Realization. Vivek, does not come from making someone a GURU, but from SATSANG - "Binu satsang vivek ne hoyi" (Manas. Bal. 3/4). Therefore wherever you get good satsang, learn and grow from it. 3) Whatever extraordinary that you see in a Guru or Saint etc. it has come from Bhagavaan. We have accepted it as being in the Guru / Saint, but clearly Bhagavaan has written this in Gita 10/41 - Everything glorious, brilliant, or powerful, know that to be a manifestation of, a spark of My splendour alone. " It is Him alone. Bhagavaanji has given us a clear message - HE IS "SULABH" (EASILY ATTAINABLE) , whereas True Guru/Saint/Mahatmaa is "DURLABH" - a RARITY. NOW SADHAKS !!!!!!!! Why do you always want to take the difficult path after everything that you have been told by Gita/Scripture/Swamiji? Read Gita 9/34 - become My devotee, engage your mind in Me, worship Me, surrender to Me, you will reach Me. (WHERE IS THE MENTION OF AN INTERMEDIARY TO HELP US ATTAIN REALIZATION?) The ultimate verse - MAAMEKAM SHARANAM VRAJ - (GITA 18/66) - Exclusively Surrender to Me alone. Where is the mention surrender to Me going through a GURU ???? Sadhaks, we are in this Gita Talk group - therefore kindly take some time to do some self study and point out how many verses in the Gita, address about making someone a Guru? (forget women.. .anyone for that matter) It will be an eye opening exercise. The truth is... our motivations are not clean or clear. We do not want to believe the scriptures, the GITA or other. Forgive me for saying this bluntly but - we like to belong to something (group, organization etc). Women in particular like to depend on someone and when husbands / others fail to be dependable or live up to the mark then unconsciously we seek out other sources of dependency (Guru seems the safest route); we like to take pride in the fact that we are disciples of so and so... We like to feel important that we too have a Guru, it brings a new spark into the mundane and empty life of a householder (as children grow-up) and we go all out to promote our Guru to others etc..... But the truth of the matter is, we do not really care enough about following the Guru's teachings or salvation. Our true motivations and sentiments need to be examined sincerely and deeply (both women and men). Meera Das Ram Ram ----- namasthe all, This is my humble opinion. I also do not know whether this message will be posted to all but again, thought of mentioning it. All the messages from sree ramsukhdaasji and other devotees are all based on their own opinions and experiences and some of them or most of them) refer to scriptures too. But eventually, we need to take all these only based on 'as a part of understanding God' but we should NOT be taking anything blindly at all. Be open to everything and get attached to nothing. After going thro discussions, then analyze a situation from your own perspective and based on your feelings in your heart, take any decision by surrendering all your actions and the consequeneces to that Divinity/Supreme. The real sadha wll never say that this is correct or this is incorrect. WHat one thing is correct to one may be wrong to another in most of the cases. So, we need to make our decision based on our own understanding of life and I feel that the heart will feel peace when we try to surrender ourselves to that God. This is my humble opinion. Namathe again, Regards, Bharathi Shree Hari Ram Ram Bharathiji, Pranaam ! Just for clarification, Swamiji, rarely spoke his own opinions. Majority of the time, He quoted and explained his understanding of the Gita, Ramayana and Other Hindu scriptures. Please re-read Swamiji's posting at the end again! From Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram - There is no harm in a woman following an enlightened person as herGuru. Every Guru in India has more women than men followers. There canbe no knowledge without a teacher and that is what a Guru is. But toselect a person as her Guru is not easy. In my opinion, most of the Gurus whom onesees on TV are frauds. One should never be in a hurry to make someoneone's Guru. When the time comes, the Guru will come to you. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------ This is very backward thinking. Why should a woman be deprived of the same rights as a male, in obtaining a Guru ? If you say even Rishi Parashar was taken aback with Matsyagandha, what's wrong with that ? Without Parashar, there would have been no Mahabharat. Historically, there have been married Gurus, who were Rishis like Yagnyavalkya and his wife Gargi. What's wrong with it ?If someone is THAT accomplished in Sannyasa, he should be able to control himself / herself. If not, what was going to happen will happen, and hopefully the result will be good, if the basic people are good. Married Gurus are not necessarily bad, that we should extoll the virtues only of Sannyasa ! Durgesh Mankikar,MD ------- - PRIOR POSTING My dandavat pranams....Oh most respected, learned persons.......in this dark age of Kali, so manyvices are certainly prevelant....so many so-called spiritual persons, who havemotive to make money, to have prestige, worship, etc etc.But then, my spiritual master, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, came toAmerica and initiated so many young boys and girls into the path of bhakti yoga.I feel myself to be most fortunate to have taken guidance from him, through hisbooks, his lectures, and through his teachings transmitted to older godbrothersand godsisters, who then explained to me proper mode of behavior in templelife, path of bhakti yoga, in social life, in regard to ettiquette between manand woman, etc. At age 14 I left my father's home and lived in Boston templefor 5 years before marrying. If I had not been given opportunity to learndevotional lessions, through the mercy of my guru, what would I have understoodabout how to respect a man? How to be married in any sense of Vedic dharma? Inthis country of USA, there is no training of a girl to have worship, respect forhusband. The trend is for women to want to be at least equal, and even morelately, to compete, to challenge, to surpass men. How would I have learnedanything without the mercy of gurudeva, who was ordered by Srila BhaktisiddhantaSarasvati Thakur to preach in western countries, and who himself set the exampleof initiating women?I feel from my heart that if a person is on the level of uttama adhikari,they will know that their level of intimate loving exchange with the Lord willfar surpass any attraction to mundane man/woman affiars. And if guru does nothave such relationship with Bhagavan, he should seriously consider if he shouldbe taking disciples, for one who does not have close intimate lovingaffectionate talks with Bhagavan is on a lower level, and cannot take hisdisciples to the lotus feet of the Lord because he (the less qualified guru) isnot at the lotus feet of Bhagavan himself. A persons cannot deliver to Bhagavananother, if he himself is not there.And once there, the love, affection, and rasa is so powerful.....such an uttamaadhikari, or most qualified devotee,would not leave the association of the Lordfor anything of this world......therefore there is no fault for such a person toinitiate a woman.To tell the women of western culture that there only salvation is therehusband, is virtually to condemn 99% of them to animal life in this birth andthe next, for most men in America and many other countries as well, are animals."Wife" means sexual enjoyment, not responsibility for protection of children,security for the family, dharma, devotion in the home, etc. Therefore, theprinciple of considering time, place, and circumstance must be applied in orderto attempt to elevate the population of this planet. It is not a realisticapproach, to say a husband is guru, unless a woman is trained by her parents,to know that her future husband should be worshiped as guru, and the girl alsohas confidence and discretion that the man she will/is married to, is properlyguiding her. Nothing should be done blindly....not for men, or women...Most respectfully,Maha Laksmi Dasi-------------------- Dear Sadhaks,Hari Bol Yes, a woman can make a Guru. "Shri Krishnam Vande Jagadgurum". Woman'shusband and husband himself both and their children all are fully eligible tobecome deciple of Shri Krishna Guru. Gopis were married and unmarried, and GodKrishna was more than Guru for them. They got right to reprimand, scold ShriKrishna all the way. Husbands' mention comes on many places in Shri Bhagavadam.Canto 10 Chapter 29 and many other chapter are full of Gopis with husbands. Itis advisable to make Shri Krishna a Guru. My wife worships Shri Krishna. Mysister-in-law worships Shri Krishna. But nowadays living gurus are not qualifiedto become Guru even for a husband. God Krishna is eternally living in our heart.Read Shri Gita, read Shri Bhagavat. And follow that. Find Guru Shri Krishna inthese holy scriptures. Jai Shri Krishna Mahesh Sharma------------------- Ram Ram Woman is the base for creating the future of any nation. Woman is also a humankind & they require guru for the same reason a man requires a guru.If a Husbandis drinking & not having good character than how can be he guru. This isunjustice to women in total & shows very old mentality. Those who have commentedthat husband is the "Guru" of woman should read carefully the definitation ofGuru.Today woman has shown great success in various field of management which aMan would never have done. Woman is basically "Shiv Shakti" & they have gotequal rights to make guru. However looking at the current scenario of the various rape incidents,I wouldsuggest woman should not go alone to a guru. She can go along with her husbandor son or father. RegardsBhavin Ram Ram ------------------- : Shree Hari:Ram Ram 23rd July, 2009, Thursday, Shravan Shukla Pratipada, Vikram Samvat 2066,Guruvaar Question: Can a woman make someone a Guru? Swamiji: A woman should not make a Guru. If she has already made someone herGuru, she should give it up. For a woman, her husband itself is her Guru. Scriptures say : Gururnigirdvijaateenaam varnaanaam braahmano Guruh | Patireva Guruh streenaam sarvasyaabhyaagato Guruh || (Padmapuraan, 51/51,Brahmapuraan 80/47) Fire is regarded as Guru of the twice born, a Brahmin is the Guru of all thefour varnas (castes), while only the husband is the Guru of a woman and a guestis Guru of all. Vaivaahiko vidhih streenaam sanskaaro vaidikah smrutah | Patisevaa gurau vaaso grahaarthongiparikriyaa || (Manusmriti 2/67) For women obedience to the marital rites itself is the vedic activity (sacredthread), serving her husband is the as good as going to the Gurukul (study) andhousehold duties itself are her religious sacrifices (agnihotra). A woman should not develop any type of relationship with anybody other than herhusband. It is my sincere prayer / request to the ladies not to get entangled(involved) with any Saadhu or monks. These days various types of frauds,deception and superficialities are taking place. I receive such letters andvictimized women also come to me and explain their unfortunate experiences; fromwhich it appears that in the present times it is disastrous for a woman to makea Guru or to develop relationship with any person other than her husband. A saadhu (monk) should also not initiate any woman as his disciple. At the timeof initiation (dikshaa) ceremony a Guru is required to touch the heart area(chest), whereas for an renunciate (sanyaasi) it is strictly prohibited to toucha woman. In Srimad Bhagavata it is said - what to talk of woman in flesh andblood, an ascetic should not even touch a woman's statue (wooden figurine). Forget about touching with hands, even with his feet he should not touch. Padaapi yuvateen bhikshurn sparshed daaraveemapi | (Srimad Bhag. 11/8/13) The scriptures even go on to say - Maatraa swaastraa duhitraa vaa na viviktaasano bhavet | Balavaanindrayagraamo vidvaansmapi karshati || (Manu 2/215) "A man should not remain alone with his mother, sister, and daughter in asecluded place, because sensual temptations are very strong which even thelearned persons cannot overcome or resist." Sangh na kuryaatpramadaasu jaatu, yogasya paaram paramaarurukshah | matsevayaa pratilabdhaatmalaabho, vadanti yaa nirayadvaarmasya || (Srimad Bhag3/31/39) "A person who wants to attain the supreme state of yoga or one who has realizedthe truth of the Self and the Non-Self by rendering service to Me, should neverassociate with women, because the women have been declared to be the opengateway to hell for such a person." Vishwaamitraparaasharprabrutayo vaataambu parnaashanaa - stepi streemukhapankajam sulalitam drushtveva moham gataah | shaalyanam sughrutam payodtdhiyutam bhunjanti ye maanavaa steshaamindriynigraho yadi bhavedvindhyastaretsaagare || (Bhatruharishatak) "Even sages like Vishwaamitra and Paraasara etc., who led a life of extremeausterity merely by breathing air or drinking water and eating dry leaves, weredeluded and could not resist the attraction on seeing the face of beautifulwomen . Then what to speak of those who eat rice with ghee (butter), milk andyoghurt? If they are able to keep their senses under control, then it is asgood as the Vindhyachalan mountains swimming in the ocean." In other words, itshall be a great wonder and rather an impossibility if people surrounded by alltypes of foods and luxuries can control their sensual cravings. In such a state, those who initiate (make disciples) youthful girls / women andkeep them in their Ashramas (hermitages) for them to even attain liberation intheir dreams seems unlikely to me. Thus being the case, how can you benefitthrough such persons? It is purely a breach of trust (cheating). From "Kyaa Guru Binaa Mukti Nahin?" pg 45-46 and "Is Salvation not Possiblewithout a Guru?" pg 61-63 by Swami Ramuskhdasji. Ram Ram For ENGLISH WEBSITE please visit: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.netFor full online discourses in Hindi: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org -------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita. GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that theyfurther help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be concise, to the point, refraining from criticism or personal attacks. Berespectful of all sadhaks and avoid judging others.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed. MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - ------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2009 Report Share Posted July 27, 2009 Shree Hari Ram RamThank you all for your notes on this Topic. None of the notes received pointedout specific statement in Swamiji's message that are incorrect. The basis ofSwamiji's messages are ONLY the scriptures. All He has done in this message istranslated the "shlokas" from the scriptures. So if there is a disagreement,then it is disagreeing with what is written in the scriptures. Also, Swamiji'sexperience "anubhava" with millions of sadhaks during the course of His life,leads him to make these statements. When you express disagreement, please do so clearly, by noting the specificpoints of disagreements from Swamiji's message, NOT GENERALITIES or opinions.PLEASE REREAD SWAMIJI'S MESSAGE AT THE END OF THIS POSTINGGita Talk Moderators,Ram Ram - NEW POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram The intent of this discussion is not to open it up for general conversation/opinions etc. as many sadhaks in this posting have expressed. Please quantify your position, with scriptural reference. Hari OmThe fact remains that real Guru resides within. Either no one is your Guru (except self/God/Conscience) or all are your Gurus. As Kaliyuga spreads its wings, we have to be more and more careful.Miraji Dass has touched some of the common sentiments impacting "dependent prone" females to make Gurus. One should seriously ponder over the same.I will go one step further. For a married woman, where is the Q of hubby not meeting to her expectations or not proving dependable? So Guru must pass certain qualification criteria of disciple !!! How many Gurus you have heard who were amicable or were as per expectations or were demonstrably/ apparantly dependable ? Real Gurus are not even perceived as Gurus,but later on you find them as your Gurus ! Does adversity not teach? On what basis a husband can be rejected as Guru and another can be accepted as Guru? If some one made a genuine Guru say at the age of 15/20 , she/he should have attained freedom/emancipation by now, say at 50 ! Has she/he achieved that? If no, then how the Guru was genuine? What right Guru had, to make a disciple? Swamiji used to say: It is a very big sin for a Guru, to make a disciple and then not ensure that he/she has attained moksha ! A really very big sin !! Why ? Because that Guru broke the trust of the disciple ; and prevented disciple from seeking a better guide !! What a big sin? Holding back a suffering / loitering soul and preventing her/his journey to accomplish the very purpose of human life ? Where is the Q of talking , after making a disciple, that in the disciple some error must have been there? Then what does Guru mean ?The fact is that no one is entitled to be called Guru unless he/she has ALREADY ensured emancipation of disciple ! Can you be called mother/father without there being a child? Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ------ Radhey ! Radhey !! The message of Miraji Dass is quite clear. Kaliyuga is going to be full of these self proclaimed Bhagwaans/ Acharyas/ Jagadgurus/ Babas/ Ashram Holders .... women need be very cautious. There is no need for any outer Guru. VIVEKA is your Guru ! Krishna is your Guru !! Husband is your Guru !!! How many Gurus do you need ? Three Gurus , select any or all and you are through. Radhey ! Radhey !! Nisha Chatterji MOKSHAHARE kRSNAI AM STILL NOT UNDERSTANDING THE QUERY? dID A WOMAN ASK IF SHE COULD SEEK /GET a Guru?How can it possibly be that a woman can only view her husband as the guru?There was a similar onus on orthodox jewish women. A woman could not studyKabbalah and had to keep her head and arms covered and just keep the house andbear children.There are great problems in the orthodox community just as thereare in india in households. times have changed . critical issues /abuse/ areseriously interwoven in families. one can no longer view ones father orhusband as guru.In almost every religion there is an onus on women because men are have alust issue down through the centuries.Should women be punished because of manslust?or better to say the incarnating soul which is neither male nor femaleincarnates into male of female body and takes on those characteristics/if a woman is fortunate enough to have an authentic guru guide her spirituallythat is her right what is the issue? Sophia Dalles ------- Dear Sir/Madam,First of all, what is the need of Guru?This point must be very clear,before going to further discussion.In Vedic literature or in Non Vedic literatures, it is said that to some success or goal, we need guidance.Like Dronacharya was a guru of Pandavas and Kouravas. Drona knows all the subjects, but he could not perform or execute the same in the field or war. So Guru is a person who knows and expert in the field,one choose to attain perfection.And it is the Guru ,who guides the deciple to perform ,the way it should be,to attain the goal. The deciple should have that confidence, and follow the instruction with out any doubt or ambiguity. This situation comes only from dedication and devotion to the Guru.The dedication and Devotion comes from Complete surrender to Guru,.For example, the relation between a mother and her baby. Even though the baby lives in the stage of "Avidya", the baby knows that he/she is completely secure with mother. Same is true for a father and baby. They give complete and total security to their baby, by sacrificing their life. And also bring up their child for his/her success without any desire in return. They are the best Guru for their Child.The same way, after marriage a woman being separated from her parents starts to live with her husband. The duty of the husband is to take care of his wife, the way she was getting from her parents. Hence , husband replaces parent for a woman after marriage. He is all in all for his wife and a wife feel completely secure with her husband.Under this circumstances, it says for a woman Husband is the only Guru, and she should follow her Husband as an inseparable unit.. Therefore,when husband attains his objective,automatically wife attains her objective as they are one as per Indian Philosophical system.RegardsDr. Rajeev Agnihotri -------------------------- It was stated by a brother Sadhaka: That there is no harm in a woman followingan enlightened person as her Guru.But, Dear Sir, that would be going against the teachings of the Scriptures andwhat Poojya Swami Ramsukhdas jee has endorsed and advised in his article. DidShri Bhagawan not say in the chapter sixteen of Shrimad Bhagavad Gita: Indeciding what should be done and what should not be done, Shastras alone are theauthority? So, for our own kalyaan and success in this life, herafter andsuccess of the Saadhnaa we should abide by them and not transgress them.For women, as Poojya Swamijee has pointed out, husband is her Guru.And, our Respected Doctor Saheb has stated: Why should a woman be deprived ofthe same rights as a male, in obtaining a Guru?Our opinion is that on the path of Dharma and Sadhana one should go as per theadvice of the Scriptures, and not think getting or asking for equality of rightswith men. Such a way of thinking shall prove great vighna in the Sadhanaa anddestroy peace of mind.Man sometimes goes out and roams about all alone at night. He performs his yogasaadhanaa, Sandhya Vandanam and Mantra Japa with open uncovered torso on thebank of a river or canal in the dark hours of Braahm Muhoort. Now, would that beright for the women if they demanded an right to do the same?With apologies,Dr. Ranjeet Singh ----------- Dear Sadhak-insight I am in touch with Swamiji talks but in view of my knowledge and experience I say that woman can make her choice as a Guru.Even woman can be a Guru by others Gurupad depends upon some definite principles Thanks Shankerprasad S Bhatt - Jai HanumanSaints have said:Kasturi Kundali Base, Mrig dhoondhe van maanhi !The Kasturi is lying in the navel of deer, but it foolishly searches in the forest and loses life. Your Guru is lying inside you, O Divine Sisters! Inside your very home ! On the very cot you sleep on ! In the very body ! In the very mind ! What these outer Babas can give you? Dhokha ... Dhokha - Cheating !! Nothing more. There is a saying in Marwaari:Maan Ka Pata Hi Nahin Hai; Maasi Ki Chinta Karate Hain !!Where abouts of mother are not known, and we are worried about mausi (mother's sister) ! The real Guru for a married woman is her husband. We dont accept that because in our view Guru has to like this or like that and should be meeting our qualification criteria (and at least should not be like this life/ fate granted/ undeserving/ result of our sins/ bondage form creature called "husband" ... Our Guru must be different/better.. More comprehensible, more loving, more kind, less demanding, very very soft .... More knowledgeable, more powerful .... Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! ) ;and therefore are searching Guru in Babas/ Sufis/ Maharajs !! Raam ! Raam!! Raam !!!Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala-------- Dear Sadaks, Husband is God for a lady. She can have Guru. Sant Sakubai, Sant Meera, Sant Lakshme Bai Etc had Guru apart from Husband. Many Vaishavite and Shivite married woman had Guru. Even wives of our Bagavan Sri Krishna had to do Guru seva Jai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan --------- Narain ! Narain !! Durgeshji ! You said without Parashar, the Mahabharat would not have been there ! Would that not have been better? What relevance SANYAASA has with the topic of Guru? Hari Shankar Deoji ! Why women should search for an outer Guru when Guru as great as Krishna or as natural as Husband or as close as Conscience is available in the home itself ? WHY ? It is my question to you, Sir ! Please oblige with a reply. Mahalaxmiji ! You did not find Guru. Had you found...you would have realised that in every sand grain there is God hidden. By now you would have realised that the entire creation is manifestation of God only including "Sexual animal called husband" ! Is there no Guru in him? Bharatiji ! Truth is never relative. Truth does not change with time ! Dont open yourself to everything. There is no need for a woman to be "open to everything and not attached with anything". Being open is an invitation to attachment. Close the doors. Let there be Krishna in or Conscience in or Dear Husband inside with your DUTY, your DHARMA . That's all. The times are quite bad ! Winds are of Kaliyuga ! They are flowing opposite. BG 18:33 way ! Jaagate Raho ! Jaagate Raho !! MAN MAIN JAGRAT RAHIYE TU BANDAA , RE MAN MAIN JAAGRAT RAHIYE TU BANDAA !! ( Remain vigilant, Remain awake from inside O Jeeva ). Dont search anything outside. Everything is lying inside only. Narain ! Narain !! Naarad N Maharishi - Jai Shree Krishna LAALI LAALI SAB KAHE., SABKE PALLE LAAL !! GAANTH KHOL DEKHE NAHIN, TAATE PHIRE KANGAAL !! Everybody talks about a diamond. But everybody has diamond in the pocket. They dont open the pocket and wander in the world like an orphan./ beggar ..desiring for diamond ! How true a statement by Saints ! Same is the case with our mothers and sisters. They are not happy with what is in front of them. They are not opening the "knot of pallu" (pocket) and they cross the door of home to search for a Guru outside the home. You have not conquered one test , how can you conquer other? Statement made by one contributor that in today's world to accept husband as a Guru is like accepting a beast or an animal to be your Guru ...is not a correct advice. You have been granted a special concession by being a female. See Guru/God in your husband. Similarly males need to see Guru/ God in their parents. Without doing that you cant know that ! If husband is like a sexual animal...how does it matter to you? Are you sexual animal yourself ? If no...then why you should worry ? What have you got to do with what the other is having or not? You are concerned with your duty. What kind of delicacy or beauty or love or kindness or understanding is there in an idol made of stone or of clay ? That is acceptable ( Read Story of Eklavya in Mahabharat) and not husband as Guru !!! In fact, what is your duty is relevant to you. However the husband may be, if you see Guru/God in him, GURU/GOD WILL HAVE TO EMERGE OUT OF HIM. There is no way it does not happen. VASUDEV SARVAM is a TRUTH not some joke ! For Prahlaad , God came out of a pole. For our sisters and mothers can not God emerge out of husband? Why cant He come out of husband? Is He not present in husband? We dont trust and as Miraji Dass stated we have different intentions and motives. We have hate, self perceived wisdom, ignorance, stupidity, superiority complex, ( arising out of finding faults in husband ) , ego only guiding us. If in the game of cricket, a batsman does not understand to play a googly ball, whether laws of game are changed to prevent bowler from bowling a googly ball or the batsman has to equip himself better? If husband is like an animal...deal with him and unless you have solved the riddle dont think anything else.You have to address questions asked in the examination hall and score marks. You cant demand other questions or answer other questions or go away and start searching for another question setter who sets Questions based on your criteria. You have to live life based on what is before you. In my view therefore...there is nothing which prevents a married woman to accept husband as Guru ! Easy ! Sulabh!Acceptable !! Prescribed by Scriptures ! Confirmed by Saints and Sages ! Hassle free ! Shame free ! Available right within the corridors of the home ! Part of DHARMA ! Blameless ! AN AUSTERITY IN ITSELF ! Swami Rupesh Kumar Respected Sadhaks, I have seen many satangs and gurus. I feel after analysis Guru should be made after great insight into his cleanliness, celibacy, etc. I feel generally brahmin gurus are more pure as compared to other castes. One more thing to add for a women, it is advised by shastras that she should be always under viel, guard of father, brother husband , son. even a man must not sit in loneliness with his own daughter. So women can make gurus, But for all I will suggest guru to be a brahmin with gurukul, kul parampara. Yes but guru is till gyan she must not surrender herself in kaliyug to any guru, she should make guru but her parents husband, brother must ensure she is safe and sound. guru more than person is gyan, and real guru is brahman form of god. ram, ram, regards Kalrav Pande ----------- Swamiji was an exceptionally devout Krishna bhakta and an extremely knowledgeable saint par excellence. The Gita also is one book, more than being a religious one, full of knowledge on every aspect of righteous civic behaviour and various paths leading to attainment of supreme consciousness (God) through human endeavours. Obeisance to both! There are however some references (shlokas) which perhaps have not been properly translated or interpreted in the present day context when a woman (both as a human being or as partner in every religious or social ritual as a wife along with man) can no longer be considered of an `inferior' birth or having `easy virtues'. In Tulsidasji's Manas is said, `Dhol, ganwar, shudra, pashu, nari, Ye sab taadan ke adhikari", which translates to `the drums, the deluded/ignorant people, humans of lower caste/varna, animals and women - all deserve beating'. Here the women have been bracketed with animals and the drums! Do they need to be beaten? Even a mention of this can attract human rights and women's rights groups' attention. Similarly, in Gita Arjuna expresses his fear which conveys that during the war if the soldiers die, their wives will lose all morality/virtues and will indulge in immoral acts thereby giving birth to `varna sankara' (of mixed castes/varna) children! So he would not fight. Does it presume that women do or would want only sex and have no moral? And that all women are alike? There are many references in religious texts in which the woman's birth has been clearly rated as `inferior'. Even the blessings had been given to women for giving birth to sons only (never for a daughter). Reading of Vedas was forbidden for women during some eras. In the above context it is apparent that the women were only treated like cows to be given away in `kanya daan' (which we do even now!), they were treated as objects of desire (read sex), having easy virtues, fallible, `open gateway to hell', as if succumbing to any demands of men, and so forth. What will you say of the state of affairs in an era in which it is said – `A man should not remain alone with his mother, sister, and daughter in a secluded place, because sensual temptations are very strong which even the learned persons cannot overcome or resist.' Simply shameful. We need to ponder why the women were rather forbidden to, leave aside being gurus themselves, being disciples/followers of gurus. Do the references in Purans and Manusmriti not reflect the `quality' of gurus who will succumb to carnal pleasures with the women disciples (if they had them)? A guru is expected to be much above all such thoughts (leave alone deeds). Obviously such people are not gurus but hypocrites with ulterior motives. The modern day gurus create newspaper headlines of the deeds in their ashrams which we hear about now and then. As the names implies, if a sanyasi renunciates renunciation, he was never a sanyasi in the first place. A true guru is not only well versed in all the spiritual and religious texts but is also one having highest moral values and is a truly emancipated person who has practically realized supreme consciousness. How well will a husband who is (for example) a thief or dacoit or murderer or is totally illiterate be a guru to his wife?? And what will he preach??? I think we need to revisit such references and find the implicit meaning in them rather than a literal/verbal meaning as existing. With regardsto all, A.Gautam Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! Bhavinji ! You said a woman should not go to Guru alone ( as there are incidences of rape etc) but she should go alongwith husband/son/brother ! How does that change Guru ? Does he become better when a woman is accompanied by some one ? More power of granting moksha comes into him in that case , is it? Why dont you define Sir as to what is Guru for benefit of us all ? I am also one of those "old mentality" guys who strongly believes that Krishna/Conscience/Husband should only be Gurus for a married woman. ( Any one or all) ! Give me reasons what these three or any one of them does not have which an outer Guru has.... to impart wisdom to a married woman ? Mahalaxmiji ! Once you have had Guru, the question of Uttam Adhikaari, or Madhyam Adhikaari or Adham Adhikaari does not arise. Read Gita 9:30/31/32/33 to know who are adhikaaris. These things arise only till you have not found a Guru. (Of course vis a vis chella/chelli). Why dont we take simple straight paths in accordance with Scriptures ? Bharatiji ! Who told you that real Sadhak will never say that this is right and this is wrong? If Sadhaks, Saints, Sages, Scriptures, Elders, do not tell you what is wrong and what is right...who will tell you? Durgeshji Maharaj ! Women have more powers and privileges than males. Is going out in search of a Guru ...with an aluminium bowl... a right.... which is getting snatched away ? Dear Durgeshji....we have been given already human birth. Now whatever is needed for our kalyaan will come to us naturally, automatically by Grace of God,/ Operation of Karmic laws as our entitlement, ! How one can deprive this natural entitlement to someone? You are in human life Sir. Everything around you is Guru. It is inside you. It is inside your home. Open your eyes ! Hari Shankarji ! Why women are more followers of Gurus than males ? Think over it and reply ! Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! Anirudh Joshi Namaste Sadhaks ! I generally noticed that whenever on this web site any topic concerning marital relationships, Guru etc arises there are floral tributes paid to so called today's husbands ! That shows that husband lies deep within the psyches of us. Sure through hate/rejection/helplessness ...but he cant be forgotten ! That proves Swamiji right. Yes ! For a female her husband is the best Guru ! No doubt on that ! Who told Gurus are soft ? Tell me a single Guru who was not a hard task master? One sadhak asked us to go through the definition of GURU ! I will define : Guru is that which drives you towards God ! Ask everyone now ! Who is Guru....HUSBAND...HUSBAND....HUSBAND. He drives a wife towards God ! Sure ! Sometimes through hardness. That does not make husband a Guru in his own right ! He has his own karmas governing him. But, he "becomes" a deemed Guru...for wife. She gets cleansed, she gets credit for selfless service and devotion, she gets rewarded by God because she obeyed the directions of Scriptures irrespective of how the husband is.. Her salvation is not because hubby has some special divine qualities, her salvation is because she saw divinity in whatever was there in hubby. Primary is wife not husband. Primary is disciple not Guru. Primary are your own virtues not virtues of husband. Fools will set qualification yardsticks for a Guru. Females should not forget that AUSTERITY is never pleasant. AUSTERITY is tolerating what is meted out to you by Divine Will. Harsher the husband...greater the austerity...faster the salvation ! Pranaams to Swamiji and Sanatan Dharma ! Absolutely flawless are principles of Swamiji. No way you can find a fault. Audrey. - PRIOR POSTING The essence of book "Kya guru ke bina mukti nahi" is to accept Krishna who resides within our heart as the eternal guru. He from within gives us vivek to discriminate between right and wrong and take right decisions etc. We should take shelter of the guru within and take knowledge from external sources who are mainfestation or representation of guru within. For example, Krishna arranged for me to read Swamiji's books and while I read his books or hear his lectures, Krishna gives me knowledge and understanding from within. So, the true guru is Krishna Himself. BG 9.32 - Those who takes refuge in Me attain the supreme goal. According to Swamiji, taking refuge means that accepting that our self belongs to Krishna and Krishna is ours. It also means to see this world as separate from us and not to give importance to this world. So, women can always take shelter of Krishna within and attain the goal of human life. This applies to men and women both. This world and the names "upadhi" of this world are not us. Swamiji tells us that don't give importance to this external world. That is his real teaching. Interaction with matter i.e. living in this world and activities in this world change with time, place and circumstances. For example, the girls in US are raised in different way than the traditional Indian girl. The social rules will change for them. Western girls interact with men throughout their whole life. "Not interacting with men" does not apply to them. I will need to enclose my daughter in a house to do that. What I can do is to teach my daughter that Sita Ram are Her parents and they are hers. She is not this body and she is part of Sita Ram. Once she understands this fact and develops mineness to Ram, other things will be automatically taken care of. Swamiji gives the story of saint who was going in the boat on the river with other passengers. Due to storm, the boat started to drown. The saint started to put water in the boat. The boat managed to escape the storm and reached safe spot. Then, the saint started to remove the water out of the boat. The passengers were upset that he was doing the opposite of what he was supposed to do and he could have drowned the boat. The saint explained that he thought that Bhagavan wanted to drown the boat so he was helping Bhagavan's work. Later on, he realized that Bhagavan saved the boat and Bhagavan did not want to drown it so he started to help in removing the water out of the boat. Unknowingly we may be doing incorrect actions like this saint, yet we are Krishna's. What matters is our inner attitute! If we internally accept that Krishna is ours and we are Krishna's, then our work is complete. Gaurav Mittal ----- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji has clearly said for women, that they cannot easily remain safe from the world these days True Gurus and associations are very difficult to find . They are simply not available these days. Very few Gurus are even talking about the True Essence (Tattva). The few things that have touched me personally from Swamiji's messages on the subject of Guru, which applies to both men and women are - 1) For salvation, one's own inner aim and intense longing is more important than anything else. i.e. When a sishya (including a woman) is not hungry within, then no Guru can make him/her attain salvation 2) The man/women who respects and gives importance to his/her own vivek "Discrimination" (given by Bhagavaan Himself), and utilizes it well, attains Self Realization. Vivek, does not come from making someone a GURU, but from SATSANG - "Binu satsang vivek ne hoyi" (Manas. Bal. 3/4). Therefore wherever you get good satsang, learn and grow from it. 3) Whatever extraordinary that you see in a Guru or Saint etc. it has come from Bhagavaan. We have accepted it as being in the Guru / Saint, but clearly Bhagavaan has written this in Gita 10/41 - Everything glorious, brilliant, or powerful, know that to be a manifestation of, a spark of My splendour alone. " It is Him alone. Bhagavaanji has given us a clear message - HE IS "SULABH" (EASILY ATTAINABLE) , whereas True Guru/Saint/Mahatmaa is "DURLABH" - a RARITY. NOW SADHAKS !!!!!!!! Why do you always want to take the difficult path after everything that you have been told by Gita/Scripture/Swamiji? Read Gita 9/34 - become My devotee, engage your mind in Me, worship Me, surrender to Me, you will reach Me. (WHERE IS THE MENTION OF AN INTERMEDIARY TO HELP US ATTAIN REALIZATION?) The ultimate verse - MAAMEKAM SHARANAM VRAJ - (GITA 18/66) - Exclusively Surrender to Me alone. Where is the mention surrender to Me going through a GURU ???? Sadhaks, we are in this Gita Talk group - therefore kindly take some time to do some self study and point out how many verses in the Gita, address about making someone a Guru? (forget women.. .anyone for that matter) It will be an eye opening exercise. The truth is... our motivations are not clean or clear. We do not want to believe the scriptures, the GITA or other. Forgive me for saying this bluntly but - we like to belong to something (group, organization etc). Women in particular like to depend on someone and when husbands / others fail to be dependable or live up to the mark then unconsciously we seek out other sources of dependency (Guru seems the safest route); we like to take pride in the fact that we are disciples of so and so... We like to feel important that we too have a Guru, it brings a new spark into the mundane and empty life of a householder (as children grow-up) and we go all out to promote our Guru to others etc..... But the truth of the matter is, we do not really care enough about following the Guru's teachings or salvation. Our true motivations and sentiments need to be examined sincerely and deeply (both women and men). Meera DasRam Ram ----- namasthe all, This is my humble opinion. I also do not know whether this message will be posted to all but again, thought of mentioning it. All the messages from sree ramsukhdaasji and other devotees are all based on their own opinions and experiences and some of them or most of them) refer to scriptures too. But eventually, we need to take all these only based on 'as a part of understanding God' but we should NOT be taking anything blindly at all. Be open to everything and get attached to nothing. After going thro discussions, then analyze a situation from your own perspective and based on your feelings in your heart, take any decision by surrendering all your actions and the consequeneces to that Divinity/Supreme. The real sadha wll never say that this is correct or this is incorrect. WHat one thing is correct to one may be wrong to another in most of the cases. So, we need to make our decision based on our own understanding of life and I feel that the heart will feel peace when we try to surrender ourselves to that God. This is my humble opinion. Namathe again,Regards,Bharathi Shree Hari Ram Ram Bharathiji, Pranaam ! Just for clarification, Swamiji, rarely spoke his own opinions. Majority of the time, He quoted and explained his understanding of the Gita, Ramayana and Other Hindu scriptures. Please re-read Swamiji's posting at the end again! From Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram - There is no harm in a woman following an enlightened person as herGuru. Every Guru in India has more women than men followers. There canbe no knowledge without a teacher and that is what a Guru is. But toselect a person as her Guru is not easy. In my opinion, most of the Gurus whom onesees on TV are frauds. One should never be in a hurry to make someoneone's Guru. When the time comes, the Guru will come to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 Shree Hari Ram RamThank you all for your notes on this Topic. None of the notes received pointedout specific statement in Swamiji's message that are incorrect. The basis ofSwamiji's messages are ONLY the scriptures. All He has done in this message istranslated the "shlokas" from the scriptures. So if there is a disagreement,then it is disagreeing with what is written in the scriptures. Also, Swamiji'sexperience "anubhava" with millions of sadhaks during the course of His life,leads him to make these statements. When you express disagreement, please do so clearly, by noting the specificpoints of disagreements from Swamiji's message, NOT GENERALITIES or opinions.PLEASE REREAD SWAMIJI'S MESSAGE AT THE END OF THIS POSTINGGita Talk Moderators,Ram Ram - NEW POSTING There was a very good question asked by someone here----- why should anyone have any Guru ? The answer is to disclose or unravel truth from fiction. This may be done by a parent, a more learned relative, by reading scriptures, or by a person. The one who has a doubt, will not wait until the question is resolved, And when you really reach That level of Jignyaasaa, the Guru will reveal himself / herself for you in one form or another. There is no such need to stop a woman from seeking divine truth. Perhaps, many women are purer in their thoughts, words and action than the men in and out of their lives. Granted, one wants to protect women from the bad elements of the society, but there are honest people also in the society, whose help they can seek, unless our biased minds perceive everyone who talks to a woman to be of bad nature. If one is so biased, and wants the husband to be the Guru, why cannot the husband and wife seek the same Guru together ? The presumption is that the husband is all knowledgeable, and he may not be. The presumption is also that his Guru is good to the man, but still has an evil eye for a woman, in which case, he is not a proper Guru to begin with, and should not even be a Guru for the husband. In terms of protection of the woman, one may say that she should not seek the advice when she is alone ( Ekaanta) but may seek clarification of a vedantic or a non-vedantic point in the presence of another person, preferably her husband or someone from her family. Durgesh Mankikar,MD -- -Shree Hari-Namaste!Ex Wikipedia.A guru (Sanskrit: is a person who is regarded as having great knowledge, wisdom and authority in a certain area, and uses it to guide others (teacher). As a principle for the development of consciousness it leads the creation from unreality to reality, from darkness of ignorance to the light of knowledge. In its purest form this principle manifests on earth as a divine incarnation (saint), a person with supreme knowledge about God and all creation.Thus I see the drunken oafish lout as not fitting the role.Therefore one would have to re define Guru, or consider the Wikipedia off target.The Hindu tradition of Seeing Husband as GOD, must be difficult through closed black eyes.Hardship and suffering can steer one towards GOD, but if one has true empathy, and respect for the Law of Karma, then one should be careful, with off hand statements implying that it is OK to suffer and it is good as it can lead one to GOD.I have said it before and will repeat with confidence, the reason why women suffer so much, is that about three thousand years ago 'The Divine Feminine', was 'Killed off' around the world, I have a file sitting on my PC on the subject.If SHE, call her Shakti,Ashera,Quan Yin.....whatever you wish, still reigned supreme together with her consort. Then that sacred bond would exist in society.Then the relationship between husband and wife, would have the divine cosmic balance.Sri Sathyanarayan wrote that married woman, can have gurus, I see no reason to doubt his knowledge.Meera Das implied the Supreme Guru is Bhagwan, no intermediary is required, thatis a statement I for one absolutely believe, but that applies surely to both genders.Also I can only speak from my own experience, that I never for one moment looked for a Guru, and yet the nearest thing to a Guru that I and my wife ever had was a woman, (just to put a revers spin on the debate.)But I never went seeking! Maybe if the GURU comes it is by the Grace of the Beloved.These are reflections, just what I see around me, outside of religion.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor----------------------------- A modern day woman can indeed help make a man become a guru and quite early in his life i might add. the average woman in the west and the average young woman in the east have become so indoctrinated with feministic ideology that it pushes a man away and forces him to begin a spiritual quest that he might not have taken upon himself until 30,40,or even 50 years later. "Lift up the self by the Self And do not let the self droop down. For the Self is the self's only friend And the self is the Self's only foe." - Sri Krishna (from The Bhagavad Gita) Ben -- Namaskar, Why our scriptures are doubtful about Man initiating Woman into Sainthood ? When Aatmaa does not differentiate between sexes, its only the `Sanskaar' and `Karma' which guides it. Yogis and Saints initiated from childhood are totally aloof from the Social man-woman set-up/customs. Socially a woman learns to control herself from childhood compared to a man. So she develops a sixth sense and becomes a Motherly figure as a Saint. Godavari mata was initiated as a child by saint Saibaba and till now village of Sakori at Shirdi follow her teachings. Saint Anandmoi Maa had her husband as Guru and went together. Our Bhagvad talks of mother as disciple of the child and why not Husband have Wife as Guru. RegardsSwapan PURKAYASTHA --- Narain ! Narain !! My Dear Gautamji ! Who told you Sir that "taadana" in Awadhi or Hindi means beating ? Wrong ! Goswamiji Maharaj can never mean that. Some stupids who in fact were themselves sarcastical towards females translated "taadan" as "beating". If you know Hindi , then let me tell you that in Hindi "taadana" means "thoughtful treatment" / careful treatment / thinking before dealing. Many times we say in Hindi that - MAINE USKO TAAD LIYA- meaning I understood him ( deeply...after applying wisdom) . In dealing with a "dhol" (drum) , ganwaar (illiterate), shudra (person of service caste), pashu (animal) and naari (female)...you ought to think well before you treat them.. You cant control animals without applying certain expertise. You must think well before you try to tame say a horse. Similarly you must apply understanding, love, compassion before you deal with one of the best creations of Paramatma..... A FEMALE. Are you aware why this Doha came into Ram Charit Maanas? Who told it to whom? Let me tell you. This Doha was spoken by Ocean toLord Rama...please understand me. Please dont get angry with me. Please deal with me thoughtfully. I am ocean and due to rules made by you only I am bound by MARYAADA ! I deserve (am entitled...am "adhikaari" ) a thoughtful treatment (taadan) from you, (and not punishment or beating) as a dhol or a ganwaar or ashudra or a pashu or a female deserve a thoughtful treatment (and not punishment or beating) ! Hence Gautamji Maharaj...dont jump to such funny conclusions. In fact you are opposite of what is written. Will ocean demand a punishment from Lord Rama? Did Lord Rama thereafter beat Ocean ? Read carefully first Ramayana yourself and then comment ! By the way what is wrong in Gita verse when Arjuna talked about the females getting corrupted? Where is the insult to females there? Yes! If females indulge into dereliction of duties, they become corrupt...but so does every one else ! What is shameful in advice of Scriptures that a male should not remain alone with mother/sister/daughter? Where is the down grading of females there? In fact by making such thoughtless interpretations you are putting females on a defence...though appearing to be supporting them. Narain ! Narain !! Naarad N Maharishi -- Jai Shree Krishna Sophiaji ! Not all mothers are bad ! Not all husbands are bad ! If fact none is bad. All are good. All are divine. All have at the roots Paramatma lying within them. All have capacity to become pious/ God Himself ! One should never therefore draw conclusions on the basis of vicissitudes of His Divine Creation. There is nothing wrong in a female making Guru if she wants. But issue here is that where is the need for the same when Viveka is there, Krishna is there, Husband is there, parents are there ? We are just arguing here simple ways of emancipation of a soul. Yes ! It is very easy, practical, beneficial, for a married woman to consider (inside her heart ) husband to be Guru. You do that. You dont think about that. You are through. If you apply your little mind... then NO ONE CAN BECOME YOUR GURU. Guru element is not someone made of bones and flesh. It is a bhava of Disciple. Does Swamiji know that I am His Disciple? It is high time Sophiaji that now you go deeper. Where is the Q of fundamental rights of females here? Gautamji ! TAADANA means a "well considered treatment " not "beating " as translated funnily by you. Why are you after females that badly? They are great creations of God ! Respect them please ! Swami Rupesh Kumar ----- Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! Dear Sophia Dallas. Please appreciate that we all must support SAT being in SATSANGA. SAT is that there is no need for any Guru for SELF to realise itself. Scriptures, Saints and Sages are very categorical and clear about the same. As Meeraji Dass rightly pointed out one should study Gitaji and find out where the requirement of Guru is stated.... no where in fact except in Chapter 6 in respect of Dhyaan Yoga ( Meditation) which is a very difficult, tedious KARAN SAAPEKSHA SAADHAN. There are dozens and dozens of other independent methods of God/Self Realisation stated in Gita and in other Scriptures. Once that is so...why there is any need for Guru at all? PARTICULARLY for married women ...where is need for Guru? We are in SATSANGA and hence we are duty bound by SAT. SAT is that all supporters of Guruhood either want to propogate the names of their so called Gurus; or they want to become themselves Guru; or they are ignorant; or they are badly treated by their hubbies and they just cant imagine or tolerate somebody telling them that : Consider husband to be Guru. They simply cant digest this preaching. Not because this preaching is wrong ( Question of Swamiji being wrong in His statements does not arise... on the top of it... here all Scriptures unanimously support this) BUT because the veil of hatred for husband is too thick and dense for them to see simple truth. Since we are in SAT SANGA hence we all are trying to drive this TRUTH home. ANOTHER "SAT" IS THAT these Gurus/ Babas/ Mathadheeses/ Ashramholders / Self Proclaimed Bhagwaans are FRAUDS and they take advantage of married belief stricken and confused ladies and exploit them. Many promise them that by doing this or that they will acquire powers to "mesmerise" their husbands and upon completion of such and such "anusthaan" their husbands will be wagging tails before them like dogs...Just give some money for doing anushthaan... Just come in the night at 12 and be BHAIRAVI....what not !!!! ROGUES are they. Hence we must not support them. They open ASHRAMS/ MATHS , publish magazines, sell medicines, beads, their own photographs...see them. A real realised soul WILL NEVER MAKE CHELLAS... MARK MY WORDS. Note my Dear Sister ! There are no licence holders or intermediatories of Paramatma. All are His children- EQUALLY. As Simple as That Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! Anirudh Joshi ----- I see that there are so many Sadhaks referring to Shastra Pramaan... Our Shastras are full of Proof that a GURU is necessary.. Binu Guru bhavanidhi tarahi na koi. Jo viranchi shankar sam hoi. Goswami tulasidas has bluntly and clearly given the message in UTTARKAND, that doesnt matter how much tapa, vrata puja etc one may do, without a GURU, there is no LIBERATION By Repeatedly saying that no proper guru exists, what is being said is that there are no sadhus and saints any more. THAT IS VERY BOLD! Then how is there a chance of Satsangh anymore. Those who fail to notice or meet sadhus anymore must know that they are bereft of the grace of the LORD. Know it very well that TRUE GURU's exist, TRUE SADHUS EXIST. Meera bai had a husband she had a GURU. Shabari -- Matanga RishiMata Paravati - Narada Rishi - She says in (Ram Charit Manas) that she will not let go of GURU's word's even if LORD SHIVA Himself orders 100 times. For an Uttama Guru even the husbands words are secondary. tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet | samit panih srotriyam brahma-nistham| One who wants to know the Absolute Truth scientifically must approach bona fide spiritual master and offer him everything required for sacrifice. Such a spiritual master must be fixed in the truth, having heard it in disciplic succession. (Mundaka Upanisad 1.2.12) tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamamsabde pare ca nisnatam brahmany upasamasrayamOne who is searching for the Ultimate Truth must surrender to a guru who knows the inner meaning of the Vedas, is fixed in the Absolute Truth and is expert in the sastra. (Bhag. 11.3.21) acaryam mam vijaniyan navamanyeta karhicit na martya-buddhyasuyeta sarva-devamayo guruh Know the acarya to be as good as Myself. Never disrespect him. Never envy him or consider him an ordinary man for He is the sum total of all the demigods. (Bhag. 11.17.27) Srimad Bhagavatam boldly declares kalau khalu bhavishyanti narayana-parayanah kvacit kvacin maha-raja dravideshu ca bhurisah My dear King, the inhabitants of Satya-yuga and other ages eagerly desire to take birth in this age of Kali, since in this age there will be many devotees of the Supreme Lord, Narayana. These devotees will appear in various places but will be especially numerous in South India. O master of men, in the age of Kali those persons who drink the waters of the holy rivers of Dravida-desa, such as the Tamraparni, Krtamala, Payasvini, the extremely pious Kaveri and the Pratici Mahanadi, will almost all be purehearted devotees of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vasudeva (srimad Bhagavatam 11.5.38-40) Will leave the sadhakas with these thought from Srimad Bhagavatam... rahuganaitat tapasa na yatina cejyaya nirvapanad grhad vana cchandasa naiva jalagni-suryairvina mahat-pada-rajo-'bhisekam[My dear King Rahugana, unless one has the opportunity to smear his entire body with the dust of the lotus feet of great devotees, one cannot realize the Absolute Truth. One cannot realize the Absolute Truth simply by observing celibacy , strictly following the rules and regulations of householder life, leaving home as a vanaprastha, accepting sannyasa, or undergoing severe penances in winter by keeping oneself submerged in water or surrounding oneself in summer by fire and the scorching heat of the sun. There are many other processes to understand the Absolute Truth, but the Absolute Truth is only revealed to one who has attained the mercy of a great devotee. (Srimad-bhagavatam 5.12.12)] And remember it was ONLY Srimad Bhagavatam which revitalised BHAKTI GYAN and VAIRAGYA when Kaliyuga started....despite much other effort from Devrishi Narada. Humbly your servant Deepak Vinod -- A guru is required for help in taking a right spiritual journey and guidance in attainment of eternal bliss, the super consciousness or God. Thus a right guru is one who not only knows, understands and imbibes the true meaning of the scriptures, but who has also treaded that path and has attained communication with that consciousness, beyond the material world. Thus it is naïve to think that a husband can ever be or can always be a guide in that direction, unless that person is exceptionally endowed with the quality of a guru, as mentioned above. Being a husband alone is absolutely no qualification whatsoever to be a guru. This is only a sure shot prescription to remain entangled in the web of death and birth. Having taken birth in the garb of a humanbeings, it becomes the obligation of a husband and wife to raise a family together and discharge the social obligations only. That has hardly to do anything with spirituality, which is beyond the five gross elements, mann, buddhi, and ahankaar, as Gita has mentioned about the `ashtadhaa prakriti'. And husbands only to be taken as gurus? Oh God!! Please wake up and think rationally. With Best Wishes ! Regards. A.Gautam - Guru Govinda dono kahde, kis ko lagoon paye... This is a famous bhajan in which we are asked that if God and Guru come before you together, to whom should you bow down first? We are told to bow down first to the Guru because the Guru takes you to God. For a novice to reach God without a Guru just by reading the scriptures is an exercise in futility. India is full of Swamis who give discourses on the scriptures etc. without having a single spiritual experience or God realisation. For the spiritual experience, sewa, satsang, sadhna andmeditation is required and that also at the feet of a God realised Guru, whose spiritual knowledge comes from personal experience of gruelling sadhna and meditation and not by reading the scriptures.This is a question for all sadhaks who have read the scriptures. How many have realised God? Gurus have been with us since ancient times. Among their followers are both men and women. This is the 21st. century. Women are equal to men. If men can have Gurus, why not women?There are even women Gurus. To look at all women as objects of pleasure and to look at all men as sex-maniacs is wrong. Gurus are those who gave up the world and all its worldly pleasures. To them the sex of their disciples does not matter. Hari Shanker Deo Shree Hari Ram Ram Hari Shanker Deo ji, this famous couplet as explained by Swamiji is ... There is no greatness in that Guru who stands alone. Glories are of that Guru, next to whom stands God. i.e. only he who has made us behold (attain) Bhagwaan (God), only that Guru's glories are praiseworthy. When Govind (God) is not shown, and one has become a Guru - this is plain and simple cheating ! Simply speaking - by becoming a Guru, Guruhood is not established. In this day and age, sincere disciples are a rarity and God-Realized Gurus who care deeply about liberation for their disciples are also a rarity. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram --- Shree Hari Ram Ram The intent of this discussion is not to open it up for general conversation/opinions etc. as many sadhaks in this posting have expressed. Please quantify your position, with scriptural reference. Hari Om The fact remains that real Guru resides within. Either no one is your Guru (except self/God/Conscience) or all are your Gurus. As Kaliyuga spreads its wings, we have to be more and more careful. Miraji Dass has touched some of the common sentiments impacting "dependent prone" females to make Gurus. One should seriously ponder over the same. I will go one step further. For a married woman, where is the Q of hubby not meeting to her expectations or not proving dependable? So Guru must pass certain qualification criteria of disciple !!! How many Gurus you have heard who were amicable or were as per expectations or were demonstrably/ apparantly dependable ? Real Gurus are not even perceived as Gurus,but later on you find them as your Gurus ! Does adversity not teach? On what basis a husband can be rejected as Guru and another can be accepted as Guru? If some one made a genuine Guru say at the age of 15/20 , she/he should have attained freedom/emancipation by now, say at 50 ! Has she/he achieved that? If no, then how the Guru was genuine? What right Guru had, to make a disciple? Swamiji used to say: It is a very big sin for a Guru, to make a disciple and then not ensure that he/she has attained moksha ! A really very big sin !! Why ? Because that Guru broke the trust of the disciple ; and prevented disciple from seeking a better guide !! What a big sin? Holding back a suffering / loitering soul and preventing her/his journey to accomplish the very purpose of human life ? Where is the Q of talking , after making a disciple, that in the disciple some error must have been there? Then what does Guru mean ? The fact is that no one is entitled to be called Guru unless he/she has ALREADY ensured emancipation of disciple ! Can you be called mother/father without there being a child? Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------ Radhey ! Radhey !! The message of Miraji Dass is quite clear. Kaliyuga is going to be full of these self proclaimed Bhagwaans/ Acharyas/ Jagadgurus/ Babas/ Ashram Holders .... women need be very cautious. There is no need for any outer Guru. VIVEKA is your Guru ! Krishna is your Guru !! Husband is your Guru !!! How many Gurus do you need ? Three Gurus , select any or all and you are through. Radhey ! Radhey !! Nisha Chatterji MOKSHAHARE kRSNAI AM STILL NOT UNDERSTANDING THE QUERY? dID A WOMAN ASK IF SHE COULD SEEK /GET a Guru?How can it possibly be that a woman can only view her husband as the guru?There was a similar onus on orthodox jewish women. A woman could not studyKabbalah and had to keep her head and arms covered and just keep the house andbear children.There are great problems in the orthodox community just as thereare in india in households. times have changed . critical issues /abuse/ areseriously interwoven in families. one can no longer view ones father orhusband as guru. In almost every religion there is an onus on women because men are have alust issue down through the centuries.Should women be punished because of manslust?or better to say the incarnating soul which is neither male nor femaleincarnates into male of female body and takes on those characteristics/if a woman is fortunate enough to have an authentic guru guide her spirituallythat is her right what is the issue? Sophia Dalles ------- Dear Sir/Madam, First of all, what is the need of Guru? This point must be very clear,before going to further discussion. In Vedic literature or in Non Vedic literatures, it is said that to some success or goal, we need guidance.Like Dronacharya was a guru of Pandavas and Kouravas. Drona knows all the subjects, but he could not perform or execute the same in the field or war. So Guru is a person who knows and expert in the field,one choose to attain perfection. And it is the Guru ,who guides the deciple to perform ,the way it should be,to attain the goal. The deciple should have that confidence, and follow the instruction with out any doubt or ambiguity. This situation comes only from dedication and devotion to the Guru.The dedication and Devotion comes from Complete surrender to Guru,.For example, the relation between a mother and her baby. Even though the baby lives in the stage of "Avidya", the baby knows that he/she is completely secure with mother. Same is true for a father and baby. They give complete and total security to their baby, by sacrificing their life. And also bring up their child for his/her success without any desire in return. They are the best Guru for their Child. The same way, after marriage a woman being separated from her parents starts to live with her husband. The duty of the husband is to take care of his wife, the way she was getting from her parents. Hence , husband replaces parent for a woman after marriage. He is all in all for his wife and a wife feel completely secure with her husband. Under this circumstances, it says for a woman Husband is the only Guru, and she should follow her Husband as an inseparable unit.. Therefore,when husband attains his objective,automatically wife attains her objective as they are one as per Indian Philosophical system. Regards Dr. Rajeev Agnihotri -------------------------- It was stated by a brother Sadhaka: That there is no harm in a woman followingan enlightened person as her Guru. But, Dear Sir, that would be going against the teachings of the Scriptures andwhat Poojya Swami Ramsukhdas jee has endorsed and advised in his article. DidShri Bhagawan not say in the chapter sixteen of Shrimad Bhagavad Gita: Indeciding what should be done and what should not be done, Shastras alone are theauthority? So, for our own kalyaan and success in this life, herafter andsuccess of the Saadhnaa we should abide by them and not transgress them. For women, as Poojya Swamijee has pointed out, husband is her Guru. And, our Respected Doctor Saheb has stated: Why should a woman be deprived ofthe same rights as a male, in obtaining a Guru? Our opinion is that on the path of Dharma and Sadhana one should go as per theadvice of the Scriptures, and not think getting or asking for equality of rightswith men. Such a way of thinking shall prove great vighna in the Sadhanaa anddestroy peace of mind. Man sometimes goes out and roams about all alone at night. He performs his yogasaadhanaa, Sandhya Vandanam and Mantra Japa with open uncovered torso on thebank of a river or canal in the dark hours of Braahm Muhoort. Now, would that beright for the women if they demanded an right to do the same? With apologies, Dr. Ranjeet Singh -----------Dear Sadhak-insight I am in touch with Swamiji talks but in view of my knowledge and experience I say that woman can make her choice as a Guru.Even woman can be a Guru by othersGurupad depends upon some definite principlesThanks Shankerprasad S Bhatt- Jai Hanuman Saints have said: Kasturi Kundali Base, Mrig dhoondhe van maanhi ! The Kasturi is lying in the navel of deer, but it foolishly searches in the forest and loses life. Your Guru is lying inside you, O Divine Sisters! Inside your very home ! On the very cot you sleep on ! In the very body ! In the very mind ! What these outer Babas can give you? Dhokha ... Dhokha - Cheating !! Nothing more. There is a saying in Marwaari: Maan Ka Pata Hi Nahin Hai; Maasi Ki Chinta Karate Hain !! Where abouts of mother are not known, and we are worried about mausi (mother's sister) ! The real Guru for a married woman is her husband. We dont accept that because in our view Guru has to like this or like that and should be meeting our qualification criteria (and at least should not be like this life/ fate granted/ undeserving/ result of our sins/ bondage form creature called "husband" ... Our Guru must be different/better.. More comprehensible, more loving, more kind, less demanding, very very soft .... More knowledgeable, more powerful .... Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! ) ; and therefore are searching Guru in Babas/ Sufis/ Maharajs !! Raam ! Raam!! Raam !!! Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala-------- Dear Sadaks,Husband is God for a lady. She can have Guru. Sant Sakubai, Sant Meera, Sant Lakshme Bai Etc had Guru apart from Husband.Many Vaishavite and Shivite married woman had Guru.Even wives of our Bagavan Sri Krishna had to do Guru sevaJai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan --------- Narain ! Narain !! Durgeshji ! You said without Parashar, the Mahabharat would not have been there ! Would that not have been better? What relevance SANYAASA has with the topic of Guru? Hari Shankar Deoji ! Why women should search for an outer Guru when Guru as great as Krishna or as natural as Husband or as close as Conscience is available in the home itself ? WHY ? It is my question to you, Sir ! Please oblige with a reply. Mahalaxmiji ! You did not find Guru. Had you found...you would have realised that in every sand grain there is God hidden. By now you would have realised that the entire creation is manifestation of God only including "Sexual animal called husband" ! Is there no Guru in him? Bharatiji ! Truth is never relative. Truth does not change with time ! Dont open yourself to everything. There is no need for a woman to be "open to everything and not attached with anything". Being open is an invitation to attachment. Close the doors. Let there be Krishna in or Conscience in or Dear Husband inside with your DUTY, your DHARMA . That's all. The times are quite bad ! Winds are of Kaliyuga ! They are flowing opposite. BG 18:33 way ! Jaagate Raho ! Jaagate Raho !! MAN MAIN JAGRAT RAHIYE TU BANDAA , RE MAN MAIN JAAGRAT RAHIYE TU BANDAA !! ( Remain vigilant, Remain awake from inside O Jeeva ). Dont search anything outside. Everything is lying inside only. Narain ! Narain !! Naarad N Maharishi - Jai Shree Krishna LAALI LAALI SAB KAHE., SABKE PALLE LAAL !! GAANTH KHOL DEKHE NAHIN, TAATE PHIRE KANGAAL !! Everybody talks about a diamond. But everybody has diamond in the pocket. They dont open the pocket and wander in the world like an orphan./ beggar ..desiring for diamond ! How true a statement by Saints ! Same is the case with our mothers and sisters. They are not happy with what is in front of them. They are not opening the "knot of pallu" (pocket) and they cross the door of home to search for a Guru outside the home. You have not conquered one test , how can you conquer other? Statement made by one contributor that in today's world to accept husband as a Guru is like accepting a beast or an animal to be your Guru ...is not a correct advice. You have been granted a special concession by being a female. See Guru/God in your husband. Similarly males need to see Guru/ God in their parents. Without doing that you cant know that ! If husband is like a sexual animal...how does it matter to you? Are you sexual animal yourself ? If no...then why you should worry ? What have you got to do with what the other is having or not? You are concerned with your duty. What kind of delicacy or beauty or love or kindness or understanding is there in an idol made of stone or of clay ? That is acceptable ( Read Story of Eklavya in Mahabharat) and not husband as Guru !!! In fact, what is your duty is relevant to you. However the husband may be, if you see Guru/God in him, GURU/GOD WILL HAVE TO EMERGE OUT OF HIM. There is no way it does not happen. VASUDEV SARVAM is a TRUTH not some joke ! For Prahlaad , God came out of a pole. For our sisters and mothers can not God emerge out of husband? Why cant He come out of husband? Is He not present in husband? We dont trust and as Miraji Dass stated we have different intentions and motives. We have hate, self perceived wisdom, ignorance, stupidity, superiority complex, ( arising out of finding faults in husband ) , ego only guiding us. If in the game of cricket, a batsman does not understand to play a googly ball, whether laws of game are changed to prevent bowler from bowling a googly ball or the batsman has to equip himself better? If husband is like an animal...deal with him and unless you have solved the riddle dont think anything else.You have to address questions asked in the examination hall and score marks. You cant demand other questions or answer other questions or go away and start searching for another question setter who sets Questions based on your criteria. You have to live life based on what is before you. In my view therefore...there is nothing which prevents a married woman to accept husband as Guru ! Easy ! Sulabh!Acceptable !! Prescribed by Scriptures ! Confirmed by Saints and Sages ! Hassle free ! Shame free ! Available right within the corridors of the home ! Part of DHARMA ! Blameless ! AN AUSTERITY IN ITSELF ! Swami Rupesh Kumar Respected Sadhaks, I have seen many satangs and gurus. I feel after analysis Guru should be made after great insight into his cleanliness, celibacy, etc. I feel generally brahmin gurus are more pure as compared to other castes. One more thing to add for a women, it is advised by shastras that she should be always under viel, guard of father, brother husband , son. even a man must not sit in loneliness with his own daughter. So women can make gurus, But for all I will suggest guru to be a brahmin with gurukul, kul parampara. Yes but guru is till gyan she must not surrender herself in kaliyug to any guru, she should make guru but her parents husband, brother must ensure she is safe and sound. guru more than person is gyan, and real guru is brahman form of god. ram, ram, regards Kalrav Pande----------- Swamiji was an exceptionally devout Krishna bhakta and an extremely knowledgeable saint par excellence. The Gita also is one book, more than being a religious one, full of knowledge on every aspect of righteous civic behaviour and various paths leading to attainment of supreme consciousness (God) through human endeavours. Obeisance to both! There are however some references (shlokas) which perhaps have not been properly translated or interpreted in the present day context when a woman (both as a human being or as partner in every religious or social ritual as a wife along with man) can no longer be considered of an `inferior' birth or having `easy virtues'. In Tulsidasji's Manas is said, `Dhol, ganwar, shudra, pashu, nari, Ye sab taadan ke adhikari", which translates to `the drums, the deluded/ignorant people, humans of lower caste/varna, animals and women - all deserve beating'. Here the women have been bracketed with animals and the drums! Do they need to be beaten? Even a mention of this can attract human rights and women's rights groups' attention. Similarly, in Gita Arjuna expresses his fear which conveys that during the war if the soldiers die, their wives will lose all morality/virtues and will indulge in immoral acts thereby giving birth to `varna sankara' (of mixed castes/varna) children! So he would not fight. Does it presume that women do or would want only sex and have no moral? And that all women are alike? There are many references in religious texts in which the woman's birth has been clearly rated as `inferior'. Even the blessings had been given to women for giving birth to sons only (never for a daughter). Reading of Vedas was forbidden for women during some eras. In the above context it is apparent that the women were only treated like cows to be given away in `kanya daan' (which we do even now!), they were treated as objects of desire (read sex), having easy virtues, fallible, `open gateway to hell', as if succumbing to any demands of men, and so forth. What will you say of the state of affairs in an era in which it is said – `A man should not remain alone with his mother, sister, and daughter in a secluded place, because sensual temptations are very strong which even the learned persons cannot overcome or resist.' Simply shameful. We need to ponder why the women were rather forbidden to, leave aside being gurus themselves, being disciples/followers of gurus. Do the references in Purans and Manusmriti not reflect the `quality' of gurus who will succumb to carnal pleasures with the women disciples (if they had them)? A guru is expected to be much above all such thoughts (leave alone deeds). Obviously such people are not gurus but hypocrites with ulterior motives. The modern day gurus create newspaper headlines of the deeds in their ashrams which we hear about now and then. As the names implies, if a sanyasi renunciates renunciation, he was never a sanyasi in the first place. A true guru is not only well versed in all the spiritual and religious texts but is also one having highest moral values and is a truly emancipated person who has practically realized supreme consciousness. How well will a husband who is (for example) a thief or dacoit or murderer or is totally illiterate be a guru to his wife?? And what will he preach??? I think we need to revisit such references and find the implicit meaning in them rather than a literal/verbal meaning as existing. With regardsto all, A.Gautam Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! Bhavinji ! You said a woman should not go to Guru alone ( as there are incidences of rape etc) but she should go alongwith husband/son/brother ! How does that change Guru ? Does he become better when a woman is accompanied by some one ? More power of granting moksha comes into him in that case , is it? Why dont you define Sir as to what is Guru for benefit of us all ? I am also one of those "old mentality" guys who strongly believes that Krishna/Conscience/Husband should only be Gurus for a married woman. ( Any one or all) ! Give me reasons what these three or any one of them does not have which an outer Guru has.... to impart wisdom to a married woman ? Mahalaxmiji ! Once you have had Guru, the question of Uttam Adhikaari, or Madhyam Adhikaari or Adham Adhikaari does not arise. Read Gita 9:30/31/32/33 to know who are adhikaaris. These things arise only till you have not found a Guru. (Of course vis a vis chella/chelli). Why dont we take simple straight paths in accordance with Scriptures ? Bharatiji ! Who told you that real Sadhak will never say that this is right and this is wrong? If Sadhaks, Saints, Sages, Scriptures, Elders, do not tell you what is wrong and what is right...who will tell you? Durgeshji Maharaj ! Women have more powers and privileges than males. Is going out in search of a Guru ...with an aluminium bowl... a right.... which is getting snatched away ? Dear Durgeshji....we have been given already human birth. Now whatever is needed for our kalyaan will come to us naturally, automatically by Grace of God,/ Operation of Karmic laws as our entitlement, ! How one can deprive this natural entitlement to someone? You are in human life Sir. Everything around you is Guru. It is inside you. It is inside your home. Open your eyes ! Hari Shankarji ! Why women are more followers of Gurus than males ? Think over it and reply ! Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! Anirudh Joshi Namaste Sadhaks ! I generally noticed that whenever on this web site any topic concerning marital relationships, Guru etc arises there are floral tributes paid to so called today's husbands ! That shows that husband lies deep within the psyches of us. Sure through hate/rejection/helplessness ...but he cant be forgotten ! That proves Swamiji right. Yes ! For a female her husband is the best Guru ! No doubt on that ! Who told Gurus are soft ? Tell me a single Guru who was not a hard task master? One sadhak asked us to go through the definition of GURU ! I will define : Guru is that which drives you towards God ! Ask everyone now ! Who is Guru....HUSBAND...HUSBAND....HUSBAND. He drives a wife towards God ! Sure ! Sometimes through hardness. That does not make husband a Guru in his own right ! He has his own karmas governing him. But, he "becomes" a deemed Guru...for wife. She gets cleansed, she gets credit for selfless service and devotion, she gets rewarded by God because she obeyed the directions of Scriptures irrespective of how the husband is.. Her salvation is not because hubby has some special divine qualities, her salvation is because she saw divinity in whatever was there in hubby. Primary is wife not husband. Primary is disciple not Guru. Primary are your own virtues not virtues of husband. Fools will set qualification yardsticks for a Guru. Females should not forget that AUSTERITY is never pleasant. AUSTERITY is tolerating what is meted out to you by Divine Will. Harsher the husband...greater the austerity...faster the salvation ! Pranaams to Swamiji and Sanatan Dharma ! Absolutely flawless are principles of Swamiji. No way you can find a fault. Audrey. - PRIOR POSTING The essence of book "Kya guru ke bina mukti nahi" is to accept Krishna who resides within our heart as the eternal guru. He from within gives us vivek to discriminate between right and wrong and take right decisions etc. We should take shelter of the guru within and take knowledge from external sources who are mainfestation or representation of guru within. For example, Krishna arranged for me to read Swamiji's books and while I read his books or hear his lectures, Krishna gives me knowledge and understanding from within. So, the true guru is Krishna Himself. BG 9.32 - Those who takes refuge in Me attain the supreme goal. According to Swamiji, taking refuge means that accepting that our self belongs to Krishna and Krishna is ours. It also means to see this world as separate from us and not to give importance to this world. So, women can always take shelter of Krishna within and attain the goal of human life. This applies to men and women both. This world and the names "upadhi" of this world are not us. Swamiji tells us that don't give importance to this external world. That is his real teaching. Interaction with matter i.e. living in this world and activities in this world change with time, place and circumstances. For example, the girls in US are raised in different way than the traditional Indian girl. The social rules will change for them. Western girls interact with men throughout their whole life. "Not interacting with men" does not apply to them. I will need to enclose my daughter in a house to do that. What I can do is to teach my daughter that Sita Ram are Her parents and they are hers. She is not this body and she is part of Sita Ram. Once she understands this fact and develops mineness to Ram, other things will be automatically taken care of. Swamiji gives the story of saint who was going in the boat on the river with other passengers. Due to storm, the boat started to drown. The saint started to put water in the boat. The boat managed to escape the storm and reached safe spot. Then, the saint started to remove the water out of the boat. The passengers were upset that he was doing the opposite of what he was supposed to do and he could have drowned the boat. The saint explained that he thought that Bhagavan wanted to drown the boat so he was helping Bhagavan's work. Later on, he realized that Bhagavan saved the boat and Bhagavan did not want to drown it so he started to help in removing the water out of the boat. Unknowingly we may be doing incorrect actions like this saint, yet we are Krishna's. What matters is our inner attitute! If we internally accept that Krishna is ours and we are Krishna's, then our work is complete. Gaurav Mittal ----- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji has clearly said for women, that they cannot easily remain safe from the world these days True Gurus and associations are very difficult to find . They are simply not available these days. Very few Gurus are even talking about the True Essence (Tattva). The few things that have touched me personally from Swamiji's messages on the subject of Guru, which applies to both men and women are - 1) For salvation, one's own inner aim and intense longing is more important than anything else. i.e. When a sishya (including a woman) is not hungry within, then no Guru can make him/her attain salvation 2) The man/women who respects and gives importance to his/her own vivek "Discrimination" (given by Bhagavaan Himself), and utilizes it well, attains Self Realization. Vivek, does not come from making someone a GURU, but from SATSANG - "Binu satsang vivek ne hoyi" (Manas. Bal. 3/4). Therefore wherever you get good satsang, learn and grow from it. 3) Whatever extraordinary that you see in a Guru or Saint etc. it has come from Bhagavaan. We have accepted it as being in the Guru / Saint, but clearly Bhagavaan has written this in Gita 10/41 - Everything glorious, brilliant, or powerful, know that to be a manifestation of, a spark of My splendour alone. " It is Him alone. Bhagavaanji has given us a clear message - HE IS "SULABH" (EASILY ATTAINABLE) , whereas True Guru/Saint/Mahatmaa is "DURLABH" - a RARITY. NOW SADHAKS !!!!!!!! Why do you always want to take the difficult path after everything that you have been told by Gita/Scripture/Swamiji? Read Gita 9/34 - become My devotee, engage your mind in Me, worship Me, surrender to Me, you will reach Me. (WHERE IS THE MENTION OF AN INTERMEDIARY TO HELP US ATTAIN REALIZATION?) The ultimate verse - MAAMEKAM SHARANAM VRAJ - (GITA 18/66) - Exclusively Surrender to Me alone. Where is the mention surrender to Me going through a GURU ???? Sadhaks, we are in this Gita Talk group - therefore kindly take some time to do some self study and point out how many verses in the Gita, address about making someone a Guru? (forget women.. .anyone for that matter) It will be an eye opening exercise. The truth is... our motivations are not clean or clear. We do not want to believe the scriptures, the GITA or other. Forgive me for saying this bluntly but - we like to belong to something (group, organization etc). Women in particular like to depend on someone and when husbands / others fail to be dependable or live up to the mark then unconsciously we seek out other sources of dependency (Guru seems the safest route); we like to take pride in the fact that we are disciples of so and so... We like to feel important that we too have a Guru, it brings a new spark into the mundane and empty life of a householder (as children grow-up) and we go all out to promote our Guru to others etc..... But the truth of the matter is, we do not really care enough about following the Guru's teachings or salvation. Our true motivations and sentiments need to be examined sincerely and deeply (both women and men). Meera DasRam Ram ----- namasthe all, This is my humble opinion. I also do not know whether this message will be posted to all but again, thought of mentioning it. All the messages from sree ramsukhdaasji and other devotees are all based on their own opinions and experiences and some of them or most of them) refer to scriptures too. But eventually, we need to take all these only based on 'as a part of understanding God' but we should NOT be taking anything blindly at all. Be open to everything and get attached to nothing. After going thro discussions, then analyze a situation from your own perspective and based on your feelings in your heart, take any decision by surrendering all your actions and the consequeneces to that Divinity/Supreme. The real sadha wll never say that this is correct or this is incorrect. WHat one thing is correct to one may be wrong to another in most of the cases. So, we need to make our decision based on our own understanding of life and I feel that the heart will feel peace when we try to surrender ourselves to that God. This is my humble opinion. Namathe again,Regards,Bharathi Shree Hari Ram Ram Bharathiji, Pranaam ! Just for clarification, Swamiji, rarely spoke his own opinions. Majority of the time, He quoted and explained his understanding of the Gita, Ramayana and Other Hindu scriptures. Please re-read Swamiji's posting at the end again! From Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram - There is no harm in a woman following an enlightened person as herGuru. Every Guru in India has more women than men followers. There canbe no knowledge without a teacher and that is what a Guru is. But toselect a person as her Guru is not easy. In my opinion, most of the Gurus whom onesees on TV are frauds. One should never be in a hurry to make someoneone's Guru. When the time comes, the Guru will come to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 Shree Hari Ram RamThank you all for your notes on this Topic. None of the notes received pointedout specific statement in Swamiji's message that are incorrect. The basis ofSwamiji's messages are ONLY the scriptures. All He has done in this message istranslated the "shlokas" from the scriptures. So if there is a disagreement,then it is disagreeing with what is written in the scriptures. Also, Swamiji'sexperience "anubhava" with millions of sadhaks during the course of His life,leads him to make these statements. When you express disagreement, please do so clearly, by noting the specificpoints of disagreements from Swamiji's message, NOT GENERALITIES or opinions.PLEASE REREAD SWAMIJI'S MESSAGE AT THE END OF THIS POSTINGGita Talk Moderators,Ram Ram - NEW POSTING Mataji / Prabhuji , It is said that husband is guru for a wife , but if wife gets divorced or a woman has no luck in getting married itself. she is then all alone, who will draw mercy on her ..whom she can get spiritual lessons for life? who will be her guru in these kind of caseshare krishna !!dhanyvadneeta ------------------------------ Hari OmI always believe that Satsanga brings out Truth decisively; and in deliberations made in such divine forums the Truth prevails. The truth remains that:1 For emancipation of a soul, there is no need for a Guru as Self only helps Self ultimately.2 As parrots comes of its own when the fruit ripens, the element GURU ( teaching/direction) comes to you effortlessly by Divine Grace.3 It is not a very good thing for married women to make Gurus from outer world. They can very well select any one of the three viz Viveka or Krishna or Husband to be their Guru.For males and unmarried women husband gets replaced by parents. 4 The modern day husbands may not be deserving respect from their wives due to a variety of reasons. But even if they are not, if a wife still considers her to be a Guru; then by operation of Divine Laws she will be emancipated.Important is dedication, devotion and virtues of a wife and not deservingness, virtues of husband. If husband is bad, he reaps the fruits thereof. Wife does not become bad. Austerity is in built in all human relations including marital relationship. You dont connected with a good or bad soul in this DUKHALAYAM unless you deserve that connection. Your connection thus with say a bad husband is with Divine Will and operation of Divine Laws. Divine Laws are based on your karmas only and on nothing else. Rest all arguments are egoistical, false and weak. However if she can not or does not want that, she still has option of making Krishna as her Guru. She can also follow the dictates of her Conscience.But no outer Guru made of bones and flesh is recommended because (1) there is no need (2) Modern day Gurus are frauds (3) Realised souls are rarity (4) Stepping out is futility and prone to dangers (5) Other options are available. 5 You cant be called Guru unless you have ALREADY ensured emancipation of your disciple.6 A realised soul will never make disciples. That people follow his ways is not because of his invitation to them but because of the disciple's decision. Swamiji never knew me even. Q of His making me chella does not arise. But for me He and He only is my Guru. A realised soul however radiates Truth for Lok Sangrah like Swamiji through pravachans, books, conduct etc but would never say I am realised or never invite/accept followers. Swamiji always called Himself to be a Sadhak.7 Gita or Scriptures at large do not advocate necessity of a Guru. There may be certain slokas/verses/Dohas in them glorifying Guru tattwa (element) but no where it is considered to be essential prerequisite. Thus no licences or permits have been issued by Paramatma to certain people to act as authorised agents. All are qualified to realise Him.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-- My deepest apologies if i have offended anyone here I am not clear on someoneresponding to what i wrote & possibly misinterpreting?I think it is essential to note there are vast differences in indian culture andwesternFirst of all i had no father or brother to guide meQuite the opposite. as stated before i was brutalized for many years. My innateprediliction for deep spiritual knowledge and path led me to indian teachingsand this forumIf a woman or man can be fortunate enough to have an authentic physical planeguru that is some serious grace. We all know the ultimate guru is not in t hephysical.even Lalleshwari had a guru.i shall refrain from commenting again . ido not like contention,and mean no harm to anyonekindly thankyou Sophia Dalles -- I see that there are so many Sadhaks referring to Shastra Pramaan... Our Shastras are full of Proof that a GURU is necessary.. Binu Guru bhavanidhi tarahi na koi. Jo viranchi shankar sam hoi. Goswami tulasidas has bluntly and clearly given the message in UTTARKAND, that doesnt matter how much tapa, vrata puja etc one may do, without a GURU, there is no LIBERATION By Repeatedly saying that no proper guru exists, what is being said is that there are no sadhus and saints any more. THAT IS VERY BOLD! Then how is there a chance of Satsangh anymore. Those who fail to notice or meet sadhus anymore must know that they are bereft of the grace of the LORD. Know it very well that TRUE GURU's exist, TRUE SADHUS EXIST. Meera bai had a husband she had a GURU. Shabari -- Matanga RishiMata Paravati - Narada Rishi - She says in (Ram Charit Manas) that she will not let go of GURU's word's even if LORD SHIVA Himself orders 100 times. For an Uttama Guru even the husbands words are secondary. tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet | samit panih srotriyam brahma-nistham| One who wants to know the Absolute Truth scientifically must approach bona fide spiritual master and offer him everything required for sacrifice. Such a spiritual master must be fixed in the truth, having heard it in disciplic succession. (Mundaka Upanisad 1.2.12) tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamamsabde pare ca nisnatam brahmany upasamasrayam One who is searching for the Ultimate Truth must surrender to a guru who knows the inner meaning of the Vedas, is fixed in the Absolute Truth and is expert in the sastra. (Bhag. 11.3.21) acaryam mam vijaniyan navamanyeta karhicit na martya-buddhyasuyeta sarva-devamayo guruh Know the acarya to be as good as Myself. Never disrespect him. Never envy him or consider him an ordinary man for He is the sum total of all the demigods. (Bhag. 11.17.27)  Srimad Bhagavatam boldly declares kalau khalu bhavishyanti narayana-parayanah kvacit kvacin maha-raja dravideshu ca bhurisah My dear King, the inhabitants of Satya-yuga and other ages eagerly desire to take birth in this age of Kali, since in this age there will be many devotees of the Supreme Lord, Narayana. These devotees will appear in various places but will be especially numerous in South India. O master of men, in the age of Kali those persons who drink the waters of the holy rivers of Dravida-desa, such as the Tamraparni, Krtamala, Payasvini, the extremely pious Kaveri and the Pratici Mahanadi, will almost all be purehearted devotees of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vasudeva (srimad Bhagavatam 11.5.38-40) Will leave the sadhakas with these thought from Srimad Bhagavatam... rahuganaitat tapasa na yatina cejyaya nirvapanad grhad vana cchandasa naiva jalagni-suryairvina mahat-pada-rajo-bhisekam[My dear King Rahugana, unless one has the opportunity to smear his entire body with the dust of the lotus feet of great devotees, one cannot realize the Absolute Truth. One cannot realize the Absolute Truth simply by observing celibacy , strictly following the rules and regulations of householder life, leaving home as a vanaprastha, accepting sannyasa, or undergoing severe penances in winter by keeping oneself submerged in water or surrounding oneself in summer by fire and the scorching heat of the sun. There are many other processes to understand the Absolute Truth, but the Absolute Truth is only revealed to one who has attained the mercy of a great devotee. (Srimad-bhagavatam 5.12.12)] And remember it was ONLY Srimad Bhagavatam which revitalised BHAKTI GYAN and VAIRAGYA when Kaliyuga started....despite much other effort from Devrishi Narada. Humbly your servant Deepak ------------------------------ Jai Shree Krishna Brother Mike ! There is no question of any qualification criteria for a husband to be treated as Guru by wife as it is a special concession granted to married women... hence whether he is a drunkard or drunken oafish lout ...it hardly matters. In fact in Ramayana all sorts of such adjectives like drunkards, angry etc are narrated and still a lady is adviced to observe this Dharma. CLEAR ? In fact, virtues or qualifications of others are not at all subject matter of DUTY ( ANY DHARMA) in our Scriptures except when you do charities of things other than water, food and medicines. DUTY is always INDIVIDUAL and always UNILATERAL. It has no correlation with the person towards whom you have duty to perform. ANY DUTY under the Sun ! DUTY is what you CAN do, and what you SHOULD do...as per Swamiji. On SHOULD part ...your conscience and Scriptures only have a role to play. On CAN part the physical possibility of performance of duty , availability of resources for performance of duty etc come in focus. I appreciate your views but will you kindly read what Swamiji wrote in the message which gave rise to these deliberations? Pls do read again. The Q of allowing ladies to have male Gurus arises only when males are entitled to accept ladies as disciples. If the males are not entitled as per Scriptures to make ladies as disciples then how one can conclude that ladies can make male Gurus? That is the voice of Scriptures, Dear Brother. Swamiji would never never write a statement which can ever ever be proved wrong.. What He says is LAW IN ITSELF ! Also getting a stray guidance from someone, listening to pravachans, attending Satsangas, calling Saints at home and doing their Puja, taking advice on some matter from Saints etc .. these are not establishing relationships of GURU/CHELLA as per Scriptures. These are normal dharmas of any householder. If I ever sent BHIKSHA to Swamiji , it did not establish GURU/CHELLA relationship. You have to TOTALLY SURRENDER to your Guru. TOTAL UNEQUIVOCAL SURRENDER ! JUST AS: A Pativrata Lady does vis a vis her husband !!! Mira Bai or Suku Baai or Sati took advices from Saints and Sages like Naaradji but never the relationship of Guru / Chella was established. The aforesaid is just for your knowledge..( and for all sadhaks) .as you are really a great scholar also in addition to being an ardent Saadhak. It is good to read Wikipaedia or 3000 year old research report rather than wasting time in worldly things. That too is Satsanga only because you lifted Wikipaedia only with reference to a Satsanga Q ! Tell us more about that file which is sitting on your PC at present. I think there may be something unique or interesting revelations hidden in that. ONLY IF YOU WISH ! Else ignore this request. I understand both ways ! Pranaams to Sadhaks. I enjoy the august company of this Forum. Good Satsanga indeed. Swami Rupesh Kumar Ram Ram.My wife is my Guru.She is teaching me now.When i was abusing her i was jealousbecause she is all that i want to be and ego make me take it out on her.Since ichange,thanks to the ppl here esp. Mr Vyas NB,i have been learning from her,everything from how to pray, how to love God and most of all how to be a decentperson. If my wife did what was written in the scriptures and follow me, shewould learned how to lie, how to abuse,how to be a hypocrite,how to be a meanand nasty 2faced personality.Her Guru too have help me and i meet him onlybecause of her.Thanks to Mr Vyas NB i have seen the light and by serving mywife, i am a better person.Thank youVishook Sharma-------------------------------- Jai HanumanThat Mr or Mrs/Ms So and So made Mr or Mrs/Ms So and So as his or her Guru; in olden times; does not mean that making Guru is essential for all. The examples of say Mira Bai or Suku Bai or Sati or Parvathi making Gurus are truthfuls examples BUT ONLY and ONLY because they got ultimately emancipated and they stuck to the directions of Gurus and not to the bones and fleshes of Gurus. Hence I agree with Moderators that in order to sing glories of Guru, Govinda must be standing besides him facing the disciple.Fools state that sufferrings are caused by others, only fools say so. Saints have said:Sukha Dukha Na Kopi Daata;Paro Dadati Kubuddhi Resha !No one is giver of pains or pleasures to you. That "other" is giving it, this very thought is an example of reverse/bad/spoilt intellect.The pains which each and every of a human being suffers invariably in one form or other through one medium or other are not caused by bad husbands, or bad wives, or bad relatives, or bad employers or bad incidences or bad surroundings etc but are caused by your own stupidity, your own desires and your own incapacity to shed individual likings and dislikings. You forget that this world is an examination hall; this world is temporarily granted to you for your emancipation. You are not here to judge the virtues or qualifications of others, you are here to emancipate yourself by seeing divinity in others. You suffer because you seek happiness out of relationships of the world. You have criterion laid out for good or bad relatives. That is bad not the relatives !Where then the Q arises of some one getting qualified or disqualified to be your Guru or not? Where then is the difficulty in "accepting" even the worst of the worst souls as God or Guru ? Goswami Tulsidasji got a "ghost" to guide him to Lord Hanuman who in turn made him meet with Lord Rama ! What are we talking? He said :Tulsi nafaa pichhaniye, bhale bure kyaa kaam ! Pret se Hanumat mile , Hanumat se Shree Raam !!O Tulsi ! Concentrate on your benefit. What have you got to do with other being good or bad? You got Hanuman through a "ghost" and Rama thereupon !!We are here to do satsanga ! Is Vasudev Sarvam not a Sat ? Should we not for a minute think that all is God ? If yes , then why Mr X can be a Guru and Mr Y can not be ? What kind of yardsticks are being set and why ? Non Sense!All are God ! All are divine ! All are good ! No one is bad. Our desires are bad ! Our ego is bad ! Our criterion is bad. Our classification as to what is good or what is bad based on individual likings or dislikings and perceptions is bad ! Our incapacity to see God/Guru in all is bad !Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala ------------------------------- Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! It is always a pleasure to read messages of Brother Mike Keenor. I fully appreciate his observation that "Hindu tradition of seeing God in Husband must be difficult through closed black eyes." I think , Mike, you will understand the solidity behind the tradition if you simply appreciate that this world is basically designed to be an abode of sorrow and the goal of all of us is to seek divinity out of it and reach to All is God. What is wrong if you select any one target, and stick to it with devotion, belief and single minded focus ? Nothing in fact ! Some worship Fire, some worship Sun, Some worship Water, Some worship idols made of clay/stone, some Nirgun Nirakaar, Some Sagun Nirakaar, some Sagun Sakaar, some Jesus, some Jeehova, some Buddha, Some Mohammad. What is commonality? BELIEF, STRONG DESIRE TO REALISE THE TRUTH, DEVOTION !! It is devotion, Shraddha, Bhakti, and Vishwaas which makes the mountains move , Dear Brother. Prahlaad had belief that his God is in pole made of stone. It came out of it. That is one side. Another side is that you have to do sadhana in human life in accordance with Scriptures to realise Self/God. . Some do Charities, some meditation, some austerities, some fastings, some niyamas, some yamas, some holy dips, some recitations...and so on. Scriptures , in order to guide you and make your task easy, prescribe ways and means of realisation- different ways to suit your aptitude, gender, age, etc, In those Scriptures say instead of prescribing for married women a worshipping of idol made of clay or stone or doing fasting or taking holy dips or charity... it has been prescribed that BECOME BY BODY , ACTIONS AND MIND OF your husband and you get emancipated. What is wrong with that ? IT IS CLEARLY WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURES THAT FOR A MARRIED WOMAN THERE IS NO NEED TO DO ANY VRATA, ANY FASTING, ANY CHARITIES, ANY TIRTHA, ANY HOLY DIPS, ANY OTHER AUSTERITY....ANYTHING ! What else is needed ?. Hence Swamiji stated make your hubby your Guru. If you cant make or have emotional problems.... make Krishna your Guru. But dont run to Babas/ Outer Gurus...that is dangerous. Now tell me Dear Brother, where are the qualities of Husband being relevant there? What qualities vis a vis you Fire has, or stone idol has? What kind of pleasure is there in taking a dip in Holy Ganges in the month of January? The Question here is not of the means... the Question here is of the prescribed methodologies of Scriptures. The Question is not of difficulties ; the question is of the results which we get after tolerating those difficulties. Is meditation easy? Is renunciation easy? Is austerity easy? Hence let us not talk of difficulties, let us not talk of qualifications, let us not talk of justification.... ! For a marries woman, whatever the world may say, the fact is that a single pointed devotion of being of her husband IS THE EASIEST PATH. EASY/NATURAL/ PRESCRIBED path. Where the difficulty is not there? Where you dont have to relinquish ego...in which other method ? The fact continues that observance of this DHARMA is the easiest for a married woman. ALL INGREDIENTS OF EMANCIPATION, ALL PRE REQUISITES are abundantly present.... Be it STABLE INTELLECT, "BECOMING" by Mind, Speech and Body, SURRENDER, Single pointed Devotion, ONE AND ONE ONLY TARGET....What beauty is not there in this Dharma ? Sure..there is no place of EGO in it...but in which other method the ego is allowed to be continued? You are male...Did Divine allow your ego to remain as it was in the beginning ? Tell honestly. How ruthlessly it has been crushed. Hence, What comes on the way is EGO, and tendency to get pleasure out of any relationship by them. A mockery in fact is being made of a SPECIAL CONCESSION granted to females. Why should they look at virtues of husband? How are they concerned with it ? Have they come in this world to seek conveniences ? Is it some permanent place to live? Is there any possibility of any pleasure emanating out of it? Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! Anirudh Joshi - Dear Moderators, Please read the book "Guru-Disciple" by Dr.Bruce Young. Here is a story of the spiritual journey of 2 Godrealised Gurus. Most of our Gurus never went to school and even thenthey realised God. Which school did Sai Baba go to? He was thegreatest saint of the 20th. century. As I said before a Guru can onlyshow the path. To realise God you have to make your own efforts.Whether you succeed or nor is entirely up to you. There is anothersaying which says Guru bina gyan kahan. This is true especially inspirituality. Guru's knowledge does not come out ofbooks but through their own experiences. You must have heard thesaying " the devil can quote scriptures for his purpose." Withoutteachers or Gurus all the books in this world would be worthless. JaiGurudev. Hari Shanker Deo -------- GURU means GU- To join, Ru- with soul. So Guru is the one who joins with soul. For this Guru himself must know the soul. Soul is infinite in nature & it contains everything. seen or unseen, heard or unheard, tasted or untasted. Soul can have manifested or unmanifested form. In more narrow sense, Soul can be male or female. With this logic, Guru can be male or female. Saying this phrase " Can female have Guru?" signifies two things- Can female disciple have male Guru or female Guru? If we see from the angle of true Guru, disciple is neither male or female, but a soul. If we see from the angle of diciple, Guru is male or female, till disciple is realized. Once realized, disiciple will accept Guru as Soul- irrelevant to His sex. nipun ahuja ------ There was a very good question asked by someone here----- why should anyone have any Guru ? The answer is to disclose or unravel truth from fiction. This may be done by a parent, a more learned relative, by reading scriptures, or by a person. The one who has a doubt, will not wait until the question is resolved, And when you really reach That level of Jignyaasaa, the Guru will reveal himself / herself for you in one form or another. There is no such need to stop a woman from seeking divine truth. Perhaps, many women are purer in their thoughts, words and action than the men in and out of their lives. Granted, one wants to protect women from the bad elements of the society, but there are honest people also in the society, whose help they can seek, unless our biased minds perceive everyone who talks to a woman to be of bad nature. If one is so biased, and wants the husband to be the Guru, why cannot the husband and wife seek the same Guru together ? The presumption is that the husband is all knowledgeable, and he may not be. The presumption is also that his Guru is good to the man, but still has an evil eye for a woman, in which case, he is not a proper Guru to begin with, and should not even be a Guru for the husband. In terms of protection of the woman, one may say that she should not seek the advice when she is alone ( Ekaanta) but may seek clarification of a vedantic or a non-vedantic point in the presence of another person, preferablyher husband or someone from her family. Durgesh Mankikar,MD - ---Shree Hari- Namaste! Ex Wikipedia. A guru (Sanskrit: is a person who is regarded as having great knowledge, wisdom and authority in a certain area, and uses it to guide others (teacher). As a principle for the development of consciousness it leads the creation from unreality to reality, from darkness of ignorance to the light of knowledge. In its purest form this principle manifests on earth as a divine incarnation (saint), a person with supreme knowledge about God and all creation. Thus I see the drunken oafish lout as not fitting the role. Therefore one would have to re define Guru, or consider the Wikipedia off target.The Hindu tradition of Seeing Husband as GOD, must be difficult through closed black eyes. Hardship and suffering can steer one towards GOD, but if one has true empathy, and respect for the Law of Karma, then one should be careful, with off hand statements implying that it is OK to suffer and it is good as it can lead one to GOD. I have said it before and will repeat with confidence, the reason why women suffer so much, is that about three thousand years ago 'The Divine Feminine', was 'Killed off' around the world, I have a file sitting on my PC on the subject.If SHE, call her Shakti,Ashera,Quan Yin.....whatever you wish, still reigned supreme together with her consort. Then that sacred bond would exist in society.Then the relationship between husband and wife, would have the divine cosmic balance. Sri Sathyanarayan wrote that married woman, can have gurus, I see no reason to doubt his knowledge. Meera Das implied the Supreme Guru is Bhagwan, no intermediary is required, thatis a statement I for one absolutely believe, but that applies surely to both genders. Also I can only speak from my own experience, that I never for one moment looked for a Guru, and yet the nearest thing to a Guru that I and my wife ever had was a woman, (just to put a revers spin on the debate.)But I never went seeking! Maybe if the GURU comes it is by the Grace of the Beloved. These are reflections, just what I see around me, outside of religion. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor----------------------------- A modern day woman can indeed help make a man become a guru and quite early in his life i might add. the average woman in the west and the average young woman in the east have become so indoctrinated with feministic ideology that it pushes a man away and forces him to begin a spiritual quest that he might not have taken upon himself until 30,40,or even 50 years later. "Lift up the self by the Self And do not let the self droop down. For the Self is the self's only friend And the self is the Self's only foe." - Sri Krishna (from The Bhagavad Gita) Ben-- Namaskar, Why our scriptures are doubtful about Man initiating Woman into Sainthood ? When Aatmaa does not differentiate between sexes, its only the `Sanskaar' and `Karma' which guides it. Yogis and Saints initiated from childhood are totally aloof from the Social man-woman set-up/customs. Socially a woman learns to control herself from childhood compared to a man. So she develops a sixth sense and becomes a Motherly figure as a Saint. Godavari mata was initiated as a child by saint Saibaba and till now village of Sakori at Shirdi follow her teachings. Saint Anandmoi Maa had her husband as Guru and went together. Our Bhagvad talks of mother as disciple of the child and why not Husband have Wife as Guru. Regards Swapan PURKAYASTHA--- Narain ! Narain !! My Dear Gautamji ! Who told you Sir that "taadana" in Awadhi or Hindi means beating ? Wrong ! Goswamiji Maharaj can never mean that. Some stupids who in fact were themselves sarcastical towards females translated "taadan" as "beating". If you know Hindi , then let me tell you that in Hindi "taadana" means "thoughtful treatment" / careful treatment / thinking before dealing. Many times we say in Hindi that - MAINE USKO TAAD LIYA- meaning I understood him ( deeply...after applying wisdom) . In dealing with a "dhol" (drum) , ganwaar (illiterate), shudra (person of service caste), pashu (animal) and naari (female)...you ought to think well before you treat them.. You cant control animals without applying certain expertise. You must think well before you try to tame say a horse. Similarly you must apply understanding, love, compassion before you deal with one of the best creations of Paramatma..... A FEMALE. Are you aware why this Doha came into Ram Charit Maanas? Who told it to whom? Let me tell you. This Doha was spoken by Ocean toLord Rama...please understand me. Please dont get angry with me. Please deal with me thoughtfully. I am ocean and due to rules made by you only I am bound by MARYAADA ! I deserve (am entitled...am "adhikaari" ) a thoughtful treatment (taadan) from you, (and not punishment or beating) as a dhol or a ganwaar or ashudra or a pashu or a female deserve a thoughtful treatment (and not punishment or beating) ! Hence Gautamji Maharaj...dont jump to such funny conclusions. In fact you are opposite of what is written. Will ocean demand a punishment from Lord Rama? Did Lord Rama thereafter beat Ocean ? Read carefully first Ramayana yourself and then comment ! By the way what is wrong in Gita verse when Arjuna talked about the females getting corrupted? Where is the insult to females there? Yes! If females indulge into dereliction of duties, they become corrupt...but so does every one else ! What is shameful in advice of Scriptures that a male should not remain alone with mother/sister/daughter? Where is the down grading of females there? In fact by making such thoughtless interpretations you are putting females on a defence...though appearing to be supporting them. Narain ! Narain !! Naarad N Maharishi -- Jai Shree Krishna Sophiaji ! Not all mothers are bad ! Not all husbands are bad ! If fact none is bad. All are good. All are divine. All have at the roots Paramatma lying within them. All have capacity to become pious/ God Himself ! One should never therefore draw conclusions on the basis of vicissitudes of His Divine Creation. There is nothing wrong in a female making Guru if she wants. But issue here is that where is the need for the same when Viveka is there, Krishna is there, Husband is there, parents are there ? We are just arguing here simple ways of emancipation of a soul. Yes ! It is very easy, practical, beneficial, for a married woman to consider (inside her heart ) husband to be Guru. You do that. You dont think about that. You are through. If you apply your little mind... then NO ONE CAN BECOME YOUR GURU. Guru element is not someone made of bones and flesh. It is a bhava of Disciple. Does Swamiji know that I am His Disciple? It is high time Sophiaji that now you go deeper. Where is the Q of fundamental rights of females here? Gautamji ! TAADANA means a "well considered treatment " not "beating " as translated funnily by you. Why are you after females that badly? They are great creations of God ! Respect them please ! Swami Rupesh Kumar -----Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! Dear Sophia Dallas. Please appreciate that we all must support SAT being in SATSANGA. SAT is that there is no need for any Guru for SELF to realise itself. Scriptures, Saints and Sages are very categorical and clear about the same. As Meeraji Dass rightly pointed out one should study Gitaji and find out where the requirement of Guru is stated.... no where in fact except in Chapter 6 in respect of Dhyaan Yoga ( Meditation) which is a very difficult, tedious KARAN SAAPEKSHA SAADHAN. There are dozens and dozens of other independent methods of God/Self Realisation stated in Gita and in other Scriptures. Once that is so...why there is any need for Guru at all? PARTICULARLY for married women ...where is need for Guru? We are in SATSANGA and hence we are duty bound by SAT. SAT is that all supporters of Guruhood either want to propogate the names of their so called Gurus; or they want to become themselves Guru; or they are ignorant; or they are badly treated by their hubbies and they just cant imagine or tolerate somebody telling them that : Consider husband to be Guru. They simply cant digest this preaching. Not because this preaching is wrong ( Question of Swamiji being wrong in His statements does not arise... on the top of it... here all Scriptures unanimously support this) BUT because the veil of hatred for husband is too thick and dense for them to see simple truth. Since we are in SAT SANGA hence we all are trying to drive this TRUTH home. ANOTHER "SAT" IS THAT these Gurus/ Babas/ Mathadheeses/ Ashramholders / Self Proclaimed Bhagwaans are FRAUDS and they take advantage of married belief stricken and confused ladies and exploit them. Many promise them that by doing this or that they will acquire powers to "mesmerise" their husbands and upon completion of such and such "anusthaan" their husbands will be wagging tails before them like dogs...Just give some money for doing anushthaan... Just come in the night at 12 and be BHAIRAVI....what not !!!! ROGUES are they. Hence we must not support them. They open ASHRAMS/ MATHS , publish magazines, sell medicines, beads, their own photographs...see them. A real realised soul WILL NEVER MAKE CHELLAS... MARK MY WORDS. Note my Dear Sister ! There are no licence holders or intermediatories of Paramatma. All are His children- EQUALLY. As Simple as That Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!!Anirudh Joshi ----- I see that there are so many Sadhaks referring to Shastra Pramaan...Our Shastras are full of Proof that a GURU is necessary.. Binu Guru bhavanidhi tarahi na koi.Jo viranchi shankar sam hoi. Goswami tulasidas has bluntly and clearly given the message in UTTARKAND, that doesnt matter how much tapa, vrata puja etc one may do, without a GURU, there is no LIBERATION By Repeatedly saying that no proper guru exists, what is being said is that there are no sadhus and saints any more. THAT IS VERY BOLD!Then how is there a chance of Satsangh anymore. Those who fail to notice or meet sadhus anymore must know that they are bereft of the grace of the LORD. Know it very well that TRUE GURU's exist, TRUE SADHUS EXIST. Meera bai had a husband she had a GURU. Shabari -- Matanga RishiMata Paravati - Narada Rishi - She says in (Ram Charit Manas) that she will not let go of GURU's word's even if LORD SHIVA Himself orders 100 times. For an Uttama Guru even the husbands words are secondary. tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet | samit panih srotriyam brahma-nistham|One who wants to know the Absolute Truth scientifically must approach bona fide spiritual master and offer him everything required for sacrifice. Such a spiritual master must be fixed in the truth, having heard it in disciplic succession. (Mundaka Upanisad 1.2.12) tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamamsabde pare ca nisnatam brahmany upasamasrayamOne who is searching for the Ultimate Truth must surrender to a guru who knows the inner meaning of the Vedas, is fixed in the Absolute Truth and is expert in the sastra. (Bhag. 11.3.21) acaryam mam vijaniyan navamanyeta karhicit na martya-buddhyasuyeta sarva-devamayo guruhKnow the acarya to be as good as Myself. Never disrespect him. Never envy him or consider him an ordinary man for He is the sum total of all the demigods. (Bhag. 11.17.27) Srimad Bhagavatam boldly declareskalau khalu bhavishyanti narayana-parayanahkvacit kvacin maha-raja dravideshu ca bhurisahMy dear King, the inhabitants of Satya-yuga and other ages eagerly desire to take birth in this age of Kali, since in this age there will be many devotees of the Supreme Lord, Narayana. These devotees will appear in various places but will be especially numerous in South India. O master of men, in the age of Kali those persons who drink the waters of the holy rivers of Dravida-desa, such as the Tamraparni, Krtamala, Payasvini, the extremely pious Kaveri and the Pratici Mahanadi, will almost all be purehearted devotees of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vasudeva (srimad Bhagavatam 11.5.38-40) Will leave the sadhakas with these thought from Srimad Bhagavatam... rahuganaitat tapasa na yatina cejyaya nirvapanad grhad vana cchandasa naiva jalagni-suryairvina mahat-pada-rajo-'bhisekam [My dear King Rahugana, unless one has the opportunity to smear his entire body with the dust of the lotus feet of great devotees, one cannot realize the Absolute Truth. One cannot realize the Absolute Truth simply by observing celibacy , strictly following the rules and regulations of householder life, leaving home as a vanaprastha, accepting sannyasa, or undergoing severe penances in winter by keeping oneself submerged in water or surrounding oneself in summer by fire and the scorching heat of the sun. There are many other processes to understand the Absolute Truth, but the Absolute Truth is only revealed to one who has attained the mercy of a great devotee. (Srimad-bhagavatam 5.12.12)] And remember it was ONLY Srimad Bhagavatam which revitalised BHAKTI GYAN and VAIRAGYA when Kaliyuga started....despite much other effort from Devrishi Narada. Humbly your servantDeepak Vinod -- A guru is required for help in taking a right spiritual journey and guidance in attainment of eternal bliss, the super consciousness or God. Thus a right guru is one who not only knows, understands and imbibes the true meaning of the scriptures, but who has also treaded that path and has attained communication with that consciousness, beyond the material world. Thus it is naïve to think that a husband can ever be or can always be a guide in that direction, unless that person is exceptionally endowed with the quality of a guru, as mentioned above. Being a husband alone is absolutely no qualification whatsoever to be a guru. This is only a sure shot prescription to remain entangled in the web of death and birth. Having taken birth in the garb of a humanbeings, it becomes the obligation of a husband and wife to raise a family together and discharge the social obligations only. That has hardly to do anything with spirituality, which is beyond the five gross elements, mann, buddhi, and ahankaar, as Gita has mentioned about the `ashtadhaa prakriti'. And husbands only to be taken as gurus? Oh God!! Please wake up and think rationally. With Best Wishes ! Regards. A.Gautam - Guru Govinda dono kahde, kis ko lagoon paye... This is a famous bhajan in which we are asked that if God and Guru come before you together, to whom should you bow down first? We are told to bow down first to the Guru because the Guru takes you to God. For a novice to reach God without a Guru just by reading the scriptures is an exercise in futility. India is full of Swamis who give discourses on the scriptures etc. without having a single spiritual experience or God realisation. For the spiritual experience, sewa, satsang, sadhna andmeditation is required and that also at the feet of a God realised Guru, whose spiritual knowledge comes from personal experience of gruelling sadhna and meditation and not by reading the scriptures.This is a question for all sadhaks who have read the scriptures. How many have realised God? Gurus have been with us since ancient times. Among their followers are both men and women. This is the 21st. century. Women are equal to men. If men can have Gurus, why not women?There are even women Gurus. To look at all women as objects of pleasure and to look at all men as sex-maniacs is wrong. Gurus are those who gave up the world and all its worldly pleasures. To them the sex of their disciples does not matter. Hari Shanker Deo Shree Hari Ram Ram Hari Shanker Deo ji, this famous couplet as explained by Swamiji is ... There is no greatness in that Guru who stands alone. Glories are of that Guru, next to whom stands God. i.e. only he who has made us behold (attain) Bhagwaan (God), only that Guru's glories are praiseworthy. When Govind (God) is not shown, and one has become a Guru - this is plain and simple cheating ! Simply speaking - by becoming a Guru, Guruhood is not established. In this day and age, sincere disciples are a rarity and God-Realized Gurus who care deeply about liberation for their disciples are also a rarity. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram ---Shree Hari Ram Ram The intent of this discussion is not to open it up for general conversation/opinions etc. as many sadhaks in this posting have expressed. Please quantify your position, with scriptural reference. Hari Om The fact remains that real Guru resides within. Either no one is your Guru (except self/God/Conscience) or all are your Gurus. As Kaliyuga spreads its wings, we have to be more and more careful. Miraji Dass has touched some of the common sentiments impacting "dependent prone" females to make Gurus. One should seriously ponder over the same. I will go one step further. For a married woman, where is the Q of hubby not meeting to her expectations or not proving dependable? So Guru must pass certain qualification criteria of disciple !!! How many Gurus you have heard who were amicable or were as per expectations or were demonstrably/ apparantly dependable ? Real Gurus are not even perceived as Gurus,but later on you find them as your Gurus ! Does adversity not teach? On what basis a husband can be rejected as Guru and another can be accepted as Guru? If some one made a genuine Guru say at the age of 15/20 , she/he should have attained freedom/emancipation by now, say at 50 ! Has she/he achieved that? If no, then how the Guru was genuine? What right Guru had, to make a disciple? Swamiji used to say: It is a very big sin for a Guru, to make a disciple and then not ensure that he/she has attained moksha ! A really very big sin !! Why ? Because that Guru broke the trust of the disciple ; and prevented disciple from seeking a better guide !! What a big sin? Holding back a suffering / loitering soul and preventing her/his journey to accomplish the very purpose of human life ? Where is the Q of talking , after making a disciple, that in the disciple some error must have been there? Then what does Guru mean ? The fact is that no one is entitled to be called Guru unless he/she has ALREADY ensured emancipation of disciple ! Can you be called mother/father without there being a child? Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------ Radhey ! Radhey !! The message of Miraji Dass is quite clear. Kaliyuga is going to be full of these self proclaimed Bhagwaans/ Acharyas/ Jagadgurus/ Babas/ Ashram Holders .... women need be very cautious. There is no need for any outer Guru. VIVEKA is your Guru ! Krishna is your Guru !! Husband is your Guru !!! How many Gurus do you need ? Three Gurus , select any or all and you are through. Radhey ! Radhey !! Nisha Chatterji MOKSHAHARE kRSNAI AM STILL NOT UNDERSTANDING THE QUERY? dID A WOMAN ASK IF SHE COULD SEEK /GET a Guru?How can it possibly be that a woman can only view her husband as the guru?There was a similar onus on orthodox jewish women. A woman could not studyKabbalah and had to keep her head and arms covered and just keep the house andbear children.There are great problems in the orthodox community just as thereare in india in households. times have changed . critical issues /abuse/ areseriously interwoven in families. one can no longer view ones father orhusband as guru. In almost every religion there is an onus on women because men are have alust issue down through the centuries.Should women be punished because of manslust?or better to say the incarnating soul which is neither male nor femaleincarnates into male of female body and takes on those characteristics/if a woman is fortunate enough to have an authentic guru guide her spirituallythat is her right what is the issue? Sophia Dalles ------- Dear Sir/Madam, First of all, what is the need of Guru? This point must be very clear,before going to further discussion. In Vedic literature or in Non Vedic literatures, it is said that to some success or goal, we need guidance.Like Dronacharya was a guru of Pandavas and Kouravas. Drona knows all the subjects, but he could not perform or execute the same in the field or war. So Guru is a person who knows and expert in the field,one choose to attain perfection. And it is the Guru ,who guides the deciple to perform ,the way it should be,to attain the goal. The deciple should have that confidence, and follow the instruction with out any doubt or ambiguity. This situation comes only from dedication and devotion to the Guru.The dedication and Devotion comes from Complete surrender to Guru,.For example, the relation between a mother and her baby. Even though the baby lives in the stage of "Avidya", the baby knows that he/she is completely secure with mother. Same is true for a father and baby. They give complete and total security to their baby, by sacrificing their life. And also bring up their child for his/her success without any desire in return. They are the best Guru for their Child. The same way, after marriage a woman being separated from her parents starts to live with her husband. The duty of the husband is to take care of his wife, the way she was getting from her parents. Hence , husband replaces parent for a woman after marriage. He is all in all for his wife and a wife feel completely secure with her husband. Under this circumstances, it says for a woman Husband is the only Guru, and she should follow her Husband as an inseparable unit.. Therefore,when husband attains his objective,automatically wife attains her objective as they are one as per Indian Philosophical system. Regards Dr. Rajeev Agnihotri -------------------------- It was stated by a brother Sadhaka: That there is no harm in a woman followingan enlightened person as her Guru. But, Dear Sir, that would be going against the teachings of the Scriptures andwhat Poojya Swami Ramsukhdas jee has endorsed and advised in his article. DidShri Bhagawan not say in the chapter sixteen of Shrimad Bhagavad Gita: Indeciding what should be done and what should not be done, Shastras alone are theauthority? So, for our own kalyaan and success in this life, herafter andsuccess of the Saadhnaa we should abide by them and not transgress them. For women, as Poojya Swamijee has pointed out, husband is her Guru. And, our Respected Doctor Saheb has stated: Why should a woman be deprived ofthe same rights as a male, in obtaining a Guru? Our opinion is that on the path of Dharma and Sadhana one should go as per theadvice of the Scriptures, and not think getting or asking for equality of rightswith men. Such a way of thinking shall prove great vighna in the Sadhanaa anddestroy peace of mind. Man sometimes goes out and roams about all alone at night. He performs his yogasaadhanaa, Sandhya Vandanam and Mantra Japa with open uncovered torso on thebank of a river or canal in the dark hours of Braahm Muhoort. Now, would that beright for the women if they demanded an right to do the same? With apologies, Dr. Ranjeet Singh -----------Dear Sadhak-insight I am in touch with Swamiji talks but in view of my knowledge and experience I say that woman can make her choice as a Guru.Even woman can be a Guru by othersGurupad depends upon some definite principlesThanks Shankerprasad S Bhatt- Jai Hanuman Saints have said: Kasturi Kundali Base, Mrig dhoondhe van maanhi ! The Kasturi is lying in the navel of deer, but it foolishly searches in the forest and loses life. Your Guru is lying inside you, O Divine Sisters! Inside your very home ! On the very cot you sleep on ! In the very body ! In the very mind ! What these outer Babas can give you? Dhokha ... Dhokha - Cheating !! Nothing more. There is a saying in Marwaari: Maan Ka Pata Hi Nahin Hai; Maasi Ki Chinta Karate Hain !! Where abouts of mother are not known, and we are worried about mausi (mother's sister) ! The real Guru for a married woman is her husband. We dont accept that because in our view Guru has to like this or like that and should be meeting our qualification criteria (and at least should not be like this life/ fate granted/ undeserving/ result of our sins/ bondage form creature called "husband" ... Our Guru must be different/better.. More comprehensible, more loving, more kind, less demanding, very very soft .... More knowledgeable, more powerful .... Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! ) ; and therefore are searching Guru in Babas/ Sufis/ Maharajs !! Raam ! Raam!! Raam !!! Namaste Jee Jee JeeShashikala-------- Dear Sadaks,Husband is God for a lady. She can have Guru. Sant Sakubai, Sant Meera, Sant Lakshme Bai Etc had Guru apart from Husband.Many Vaishavite and Shivite married woman had Guru.Even wives of our Bagavan Sri Krishna had to do Guru sevaJai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan --------- Narain ! Narain !! Durgeshji ! You said without Parashar, the Mahabharat would not have been there ! Would that not have been better? What relevance SANYAASA has with the topic of Guru? Hari Shankar Deoji ! Why women should search for an outer Guru when Guru as great as Krishna or as natural as Husband or as close as Conscience is available in the home itself ? WHY ? It is my question to you, Sir ! Please oblige with a reply. Mahalaxmiji ! You did not find Guru. Had you found...you would have realised that in every sand grain there is God hidden. By now you would have realised that the entire creation is manifestation of God only including "Sexual animal called husband" ! Is there no Guru in him? Bharatiji ! Truth is never relative. Truth does not change with time ! Dont open yourself to everything. There is no need for a woman to be "open to everything and not attached with anything". Being open is an invitation to attachment. Close the doors. Let there be Krishna in or Conscience in or Dear Husband inside with your DUTY, your DHARMA . That's all. The times are quite bad ! Winds are of Kaliyuga ! They are flowing opposite. BG 18:33 way ! Jaagate Raho ! Jaagate Raho !! MAN MAIN JAGRAT RAHIYE TU BANDAA , RE MAN MAIN JAAGRAT RAHIYE TU BANDAA !! ( Remain vigilant, Remain awake from inside O Jeeva ). Dont search anything outside. Everything is lying inside only. Narain ! Narain !! Naarad N Maharishi - Jai Shree Krishna LAALI LAALI SAB KAHE., SABKE PALLE LAAL !! GAANTH KHOL DEKHE NAHIN, TAATE PHIRE KANGAAL !! Everybody talks about a diamond. But everybody has diamond in the pocket. They dont open the pocket and wander in the world like an orphan./ beggar ..desiring for diamond ! How true a statement by Saints ! Same is the case with our mothers and sisters. They are not happy with what is in front of them. They are not opening the "knot of pallu" (pocket) and they cross the door of home to search for a Guru outside the home. You have not conquered one test , how can you conquer other? Statement made by one contributor that in today's world to accept husband as a Guru is like accepting a beast or an animal to be your Guru ...is not a correct advice. You have been granted a special concession by being a female. See Guru/God in your husband. Similarly males need to see Guru/ God in their parents. Without doing that you cant know that ! If husband is like a sexual animal...how does it matter to you? Are you sexual animal yourself ? If no...then why you should worry ? What have you got to do with what the other is having or not? You are concerned with your duty. What kind of delicacy or beauty or love or kindness or understanding is there in an idol made of stone or of clay ? That is acceptable ( Read Story of Eklavya in Mahabharat) and not husband as Guru !!! In fact, what is your duty is relevant to you. However the husband may be, if you see Guru/God in him, GURU/GOD WILL HAVE TO EMERGE OUT OF HIM. There is no way it does not happen. VASUDEV SARVAM is a TRUTH not some joke ! For Prahlaad , God came out of a pole. For our sisters and mothers can not God emerge out of husband? Why cant He come out of husband? Is He not present in husband? We dont trust and as Miraji Dass stated we have different intentions and motives. We have hate, self perceived wisdom, ignorance, stupidity, superiority complex, ( arising out of finding faults in husband ) , ego only guiding us. If in the game of cricket, a batsman does not understand to play a googly ball, whether laws of game are changed to prevent bowler from bowling a googly ball or the batsman has to equip himself better? If husband is like an animal...deal with him and unless you have solved the riddle dont think anything else.You have to address questions asked in the examination hall and score marks. You cant demand other questions or answer other questions or go away and start searching for another question setter who sets Questions based on your criteria. You have to live life based on what is before you. In my view therefore...there is nothing which prevents a married woman to accept husband as Guru ! Easy ! Sulabh!Acceptable !! Prescribed by Scriptures ! Confirmed by Saints and Sages ! Hassle free ! Shame free ! Available right within the corridors of the home ! Part of DHARMA ! Blameless ! AN AUSTERITY IN ITSELF ! Swami Rupesh Kumar Respected Sadhaks, I have seen many satangs and gurus. I feel after analysis Guru should be made after great insight into his cleanliness, celibacy, etc. I feel generally brahmin gurus are more pure as compared to other castes. One more thing to add for a women, it is advised by shastras that she should be always under viel, guard of father, brother husband , son. even a man must not sit in loneliness with his own daughter. So women can make gurus, But for all I will suggest guru to be a brahmin with gurukul, kul parampara. Yes but guru is till gyan she must not surrender herself in kaliyug to any guru, she should make guru but her parents husband, brother must ensure she is safe and sound. guru more than person is gyan, and real guru is brahman form of god. ram, ram, regards Kalrav Pande----------- Swamiji was an exceptionally devout Krishna bhakta and an extremely knowledgeable saint par excellence. The Gita also is one book, more than being a religious one, full of knowledge on every aspect of righteous civic behaviour and various paths leading to attainment of supreme consciousness (God) through human endeavours. Obeisance to both! There are however some references (shlokas) which perhaps have not been properly translated or interpreted in the present day context when a woman (both as a human being or as partner in every religious or social ritual as a wife along with man) can no longer be considered of an `inferior' birth or having `easy virtues'. In Tulsidasji's Manas is said, `Dhol, ganwar, shudra, pashu, nari, Ye sab taadan ke adhikari", which translates to `the drums, the deluded/ignorant people, humans of lower caste/varna, animals and women - all deserve beating'. Here the women have been bracketed with animals and the drums! Do they need to be beaten? Even a mention of this can attract human rights and women's rights groups' attention. Similarly, in Gita Arjuna expresses his fear which conveys that during the war if the soldiers die, their wives will lose all morality/virtues and will indulge in immoral acts thereby giving birth to `varna sankara' (of mixed castes/varna) children! So he would not fight. Does it presume that women do or would want only sex and have no moral? And that all women are alike? There are many references in religious texts in which the woman's birth has been clearly rated as `inferior'. Even the blessings had been given to women for giving birth to sons only (never for a daughter). Reading of Vedas was forbidden for women during some eras. In the above context it is apparent that the women were only treated like cows to be given away in `kanya daan' (which we do even now!), they were treated as objects of desire (read sex), having easy virtues, fallible, `open gateway to hell', as if succumbing to any demands of men, and so forth. What will you say of the state of affairs in an era in which it is said – `A man should not remain alone with his mother, sister, and daughter in a secluded place, because sensual temptations are very strong which even the learned persons cannot overcome or resist.' Simply shameful. We need to ponder why the women were rather forbidden to, leave aside being gurus themselves, being disciples/followers of gurus. Do the references in Purans and Manusmriti not reflect the `quality' of gurus who will succumb to carnal pleasures with the women disciples (if they had them)? A guru is expected to be much above all such thoughts (leave alone deeds). Obviously such people are not gurus but hypocrites with ulterior motives. The modern day gurus create newspaper headlines of the deeds in their ashrams which we hear about now and then. As the names implies, if a sanyasi renunciates renunciation, he was never a sanyasi in the first place. A true guru is not only well versed in all the spiritual and religious texts but is also one having highest moral values and is a truly emancipated person who has practically realized supreme consciousness. How well will a husband who is (for example) a thief or dacoit or murderer or is totally illiterate be a guru to his wife?? And what will he preach??? I think we need to revisit such references and find the implicit meaning in them rather than a literal/verbal meaning as existing. With regardsto all, A.Gautam Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! Bhavinji ! You said a woman should not go to Guru alone ( as there are incidences of rape etc) but she should go alongwith husband/son/brother ! How does that change Guru ? Does he become better when a woman is accompanied by some one ? More power of granting moksha comes into him in that case , is it? Why dont you define Sir as to what is Guru for benefit of us all ? I am also one of those "old mentality" guys who strongly believes that Krishna/Conscience/Husband should only be Gurus for a married woman. ( Any one or all) ! Give me reasons what these three or any one of them does not have which an outer Guru has.... to impart wisdom to a married woman ? Mahalaxmiji ! Once you have had Guru, the question of Uttam Adhikaari, or Madhyam Adhikaari or Adham Adhikaari does not arise. Read Gita 9:30/31/32/33 to know who are adhikaaris. These things arise only till you have not found a Guru. (Of course vis a vis chella/chelli). Why dont we take simple straight paths in accordance with Scriptures ? Bharatiji ! Who told you that real Sadhak will never say that this is right and this is wrong? If Sadhaks, Saints, Sages, Scriptures, Elders, do not tell you what is wrong and what is right...who will tell you? Durgeshji Maharaj ! Women have more powers and privileges than males. Is going out in search of a Guru ...with an aluminium bowl... a right.... which is getting snatched away ? Dear Durgeshji....we have been given already human birth. Now whatever is needed for our kalyaan will come to us naturally, automatically by Grace of God,/ Operation of Karmic laws as our entitlement, ! How one can deprive this natural entitlement to someone? You are in human life Sir. Everything around you is Guru. It is inside you. It is inside your home. Open your eyes ! Hari Shankarji ! Why women are more followers of Gurus than males ? Think over it and reply ! Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! Anirudh Joshi Namaste Sadhaks ! I generally noticed that whenever on this web site any topic concerning marital relationships, Guru etc arises there are floral tributes paid to so called today's husbands ! That shows that husband lies deep within the psyches of us. Sure through hate/rejection/helplessness ...but he cant be forgotten ! That proves Swamiji right. Yes ! For a female her husband is the best Guru ! No doubt on that ! Who told Gurus are soft ? Tell me a single Guru who was not a hard task master? One sadhak asked us to go through the definition of GURU ! I will define : Guru is that which drives you towards God ! Ask everyone now ! Who is Guru....HUSBAND...HUSBAND....HUSBAND. He drives a wife towards God ! Sure ! Sometimes through hardness. That does not make husband a Guru in his own right ! He has his own karmas governing him. But, he "becomes" a deemed Guru...for wife. She gets cleansed, she gets credit for selfless service and devotion, she gets rewarded by God because she obeyed the directions of Scriptures irrespective of how the husband is.. Her salvation is not because hubby has some special divine qualities, her salvation is because she saw divinity in whatever was there in hubby. Primary is wife not husband. Primary is disciple not Guru. Primary are your own virtues not virtues of husband. Fools will set qualification yardsticks for a Guru. Females should not forget that AUSTERITY is never pleasant. AUSTERITY is tolerating what is meted out to you by Divine Will. Harsher the husband...greater the austerity...faster the salvation ! Pranaams to Swamiji and Sanatan Dharma ! Absolutely flawless are principles of Swamiji. No way you can find a fault. Audrey. - PRIOR POSTING The essence of book "Kya guru ke bina mukti nahi" is to accept Krishna who resides within our heart as the eternal guru. He from within gives us vivek to discriminate between right and wrong and take right decisions etc. We should take shelter of the guru within and take knowledge from external sources who are mainfestation or representation of guru within. For example, Krishna arranged for me to read Swamiji's books and while I read his books or hear his lectures, Krishna gives me knowledge and understanding from within. So, the true guru is Krishna Himself. BG 9.32 - Those who takes refuge in Me attain the supreme goal. According to Swamiji, taking refuge means that accepting that our self belongs to Krishna and Krishna is ours. It also means to see this world as separate from us and not to give importance to this world. So, women can always take shelter of Krishna within and attain the goal of human life. This applies to men and women both. This world and the names "upadhi" of this world are not us. Swamiji tells us that don't give importance to this external world. That is his real teaching. Interaction with matter i.e. living in this world and activities in this world change with time, place and circumstances. For example, the girls in US are raised in different way than the traditional Indian girl. The social rules will change for them. Western girls interact with men throughout their whole life. "Not interacting with men" does not apply to them. I will need to enclose my daughter in a house to do that. What I can do is to teach my daughter that Sita Ram are Her parents and they are hers. She is not this body and she is part of Sita Ram. Once she understands this fact and develops mineness to Ram, other things will be automatically taken care of. Swamiji gives the story of saint who was going in the boat on the river with other passengers. Due to storm, the boat started to drown. The saint started to put water in the boat. The boat managed to escape the storm and reached safe spot. Then, the saint started to remove the water out of the boat. The passengers were upset that he was doing the opposite of what he was supposed to do and he could have drowned the boat. The saint explained that he thought that Bhagavan wanted to drown the boat so he was helping Bhagavan's work. Later on, he realized that Bhagavan saved the boat and Bhagavan did not want to drown it so he started to help in removing the water out of the boat. Unknowingly we may be doing incorrect actions like this saint, yet we are Krishna's. What matters is our inner attitute! If we internally accept that Krishna is ours and we are Krishna's, then our work is complete. Gaurav Mittal ----- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji has clearly said for women, that they cannot easily remain safe from the world these days True Gurus and associations are very difficult to find . They are simply not available these days. Very few Gurus are even talking about the True Essence (Tattva). The few things that have touched me personally from Swamiji's messages on the subject of Guru, which applies to both men and women are - 1) For salvation, one's own inner aim and intense longing is more important than anything else. i.e. When a sishya (including a woman) is not hungry within, then no Guru can make him/her attain salvation 2) The man/women who respects and gives importance to his/her own vivek "Discrimination" (given by Bhagavaan Himself), and utilizes it well, attains Self Realization. Vivek, does not come from making someone a GURU, but from SATSANG - "Binu satsang vivek ne hoyi" (Manas. Bal. 3/4). Therefore wherever you get good satsang, learn and grow from it. 3) Whatever extraordinary that you see in a Guru or Saint etc. it has come from Bhagavaan. We have accepted it as being in the Guru / Saint, but clearly Bhagavaan has written this in Gita 10/41 - Everything glorious, brilliant, or powerful, know that to be a manifestation of, a spark of My splendour alone. " It is Him alone. Bhagavaanji has given us a clear message - HE IS "SULABH" (EASILY ATTAINABLE) , whereas True Guru/Saint/Mahatmaa is "DURLABH" - a RARITY. NOW SADHAKS !!!!!!!! Why do you always want to take the difficult path after everything that you have been told by Gita/Scripture/Swamiji? Read Gita 9/34 - become My devotee, engage your mind in Me, worship Me, surrender to Me, you will reach Me. (WHERE IS THE MENTION OF AN INTERMEDIARY TO HELP US ATTAIN REALIZATION?) The ultimate verse - MAAMEKAM SHARANAM VRAJ - (GITA 18/66) - Exclusively Surrender to Me alone. Where is the mention surrender to Me going through a GURU ???? Sadhaks, we are in this Gita Talk group - therefore kindly take some time to do some self study and point out how many verses in the Gita, address about making someone a Guru? (forget women.. .anyone for that matter) It will be an eye opening exercise. The truth is... our motivations are not clean or clear. We do not want to believe the scriptures, the GITA or other. Forgive me for saying this bluntly but - we like to belong to something (group, organization etc). Women in particular like to depend on someone and when husbands / others fail to be dependable or live up to the mark then unconsciously we seek out other sources of dependency (Guru seems the safest route); we like to take pride in the fact that we are disciples of so and so... We like to feel important that we too have a Guru, it brings a new spark into the mundane and empty life of a householder (as children grow-up) and we go all out to promote our Guru to others etc..... But the truth of the matter is, we do not really care enough about following the Guru's teachings or salvation. Our true motivations and sentiments need to be examined sincerely and deeply (both women and men). Meera DasRam Ram ----- namasthe all, This is my humble opinion. I also do not know whether this message will be posted to all but again, thought of mentioning it. All the messages from sree ramsukhdaasji and other devotees are all based on their own opinions and experiences and some of them or most of them) refer to scriptures too. But eventually, we need to take all these only based on 'as a part of understanding God' but we should NOT be taking anything blindly at all. Be open to everything and get attached to nothing. After going thro discussions, then analyze a situation from your own perspective and based on your feelings in your heart, take any decision by surrendering all your actions and the consequeneces to that Divinity/Supreme. The real sadha wll never say that this is correct or this is incorrect. WHat one thing is correct to one may be wrong to another in most of the cases. So, we need to make our decision based on our own understanding of life and I feel that the heart will feel peace when we try to surrender ourselves to that God. This is my humble opinion. Namathe again,Regards,Bharathi Shree Hari Ram Ram Bharathiji, Pranaam ! Just for clarification, Swamiji, rarely spoke his own opinions. Majority of the time, He quoted and explained his understanding of the Gita, Ramayana and Other Hindu scriptures. Please re-read Swamiji's posting at the end again! From Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram - There is no harm in a woman following an enlightened person as herGuru. Every Guru in India has more women than men followers. There canbe no knowledge without a teacher and that is what a Guru is. But toselect a person as her Guru is not easy. In my opinion, most of the Gurus whom onesees on TV are frauds. One should never be in a hurry to make someoneone's Guru. When the time comes, the Guru will come to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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