Is the Mind alone the cause of man's bondage?

August 18, 2009

IN HINDI

KYA MAN HI MANUSHYA KE BANDHAN KA KARAN HEIN..?

[RAMCHANDRA]

--------

Ram Ram

PARTIAL POSTING

Now reflect on this that " Where does a desire reside? " Many people are of the

belief that desire resides in the mind. But as such the desire does not reside

in the mind; it only comes into the mind (visits) - Prajahaati yadaa

kaamaanssarvaanpaarth manogataam " (Gita 2/55). Mind is an internal instrument

(anthakaran). An instrument has no desires at all. Does a pen have desire to

write? Does a car have desire to move? No, it does not. If we hold that a

desire is in the mind, then when the desire is not satiated, the mind should

suffer pain, but instead when the desire is not satiated, the one's ownself

(swayam) becoming the " doer and enjoyer " suffers pain. Therefore in fact the

desire does not abide in the mind - intellect (instruments), but is in the doer

(kartaa). An instrument (karan) depends on the doer (kartaa). But being

entangled in the duality, in the form of pleasure and pain, caused by the

fulfillment or unfulfillment of desires, a man's discriminating faculty (vivek)

does not function properly and so he holds that desire to be in the mind.

Now reflect on who is the doer? If the mind had been a doer (agent), it would

have not acted becoming sub-servient to the intellect. It is everyone's

experience (anubhav) that when the intellect determines to not to do something,

then the mind leaves the desire to do that thing, and when the intellect firmly

resolves to do something, then the mind begins to desire to do that thing. But

the intellect is also not an independent agent, because intellect is also an

inner instrument. When a man derives pleasure from fulfilling a desire, then

his intellect decides to do that action. But the man who knows that the outcome

of enjoyment of pleasures is only pain, he renounces the pleasure derived from

fulfillment of desires. Thereafter instead of his intellect being inclined

towards pleasures, decides to renounce the desire for pleasure. The instrument

is dependent on the doer. It is very beneficialand in perfecting an action.

" Sadhakatam karanam " (Paani. A. 1/4/42) But the doer is independent " Swatantra

kartaa " (Paani. A. 1/4/54). Even the Swaroop (self) is not the doer; because if

there was doership in the self (swaroop) then it would never be wiped out.

Therefore Bhagwaan has in the Gita negated the doership in the self (swaroop) -

" sharirastopi kaunteya ne karoti ne lipyate. " (Gita 13/31). In reality, He who

is the enjoyer, that same one is the doer.

From " Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye " pg 126-127 and " For Salvation of Mankind "

in English pg 130-132 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

For ENGLISH WEBSITE please visit: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net

For full online discourses in Hindi: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

----------------------

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FOR QUESTIONER

1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant to

Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take up

spiritual path

2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study

3. Only one question at a time.

4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aim

of deeper understanding of Gita.

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -

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2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they

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4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, address

etc) or personalize message to particular person

7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modify

the posting.

8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit

the use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.

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Ram Ram

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August 21, 2009

Is the Mind alone the cause of man's bondage?IN HINDIKYA MAN HI MANUSHYA KE BANDHAN KA KARAN HEIN..?[RAMCHANDRA]--------Ram Ram

NEW POSTING

Hari OmDear Pawanji ! You asked "who enjoys" ? Answer is Jeeva (self) enjoys. Who suffers? Answer is whoever enjoys, necessarily, suffers. Jeeva suffers ! Why Jeeva suffers? Because of Bondage !Why bondage arises? Because of desires. Desires only produce sufferings and nothing else except sufferings. Why desires arise? Because of association with Jagat (Inert) ! How association with Jagat manifests ? Through "me and mine" with the Jagat ! Hence "me and mine" (with reference to Jagat) is the form of Bondage.How to get freedom ? Renounce either "me" (Jnana Yoga); or Renounce "mine" (Karma Yoga); or Change "me and mine" (Bhakti Yoga) !!As simple as that !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

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-Shree Hari-I would like to reflect on Brother Vyas' post.I have entered into dialog with Brother Vyas in the past on the same subject.Even when one reads the explanation, given by his good self and that of Swamiji,it is most difficult to get ones head around, with a crystal clearunderstanding. (Well speaking for myself).OK Jiva is described as the immortal essence that goes from birth to birth, (perWikipedia).So this essence, becomes attached to this 'Human'. (That belongs to nature andis not permanent).At this point I would like to reflect on a past point I brought up, regarding aconfirmed brain dead person on the operating table, who was aware of what wasgoing on in the theater. This was an extreme case, (no blood in brain).Recalled not only what was said, but also able to describe the various uniqueinstruments used. I recall Vyasji referred to conscience, I am familiar with theterm ' subtle consciousness'.Now here is a paradox; on the one hand you have the brain perceiving, by meansof eyes, ears .......the senses. But at a more subtle level an awareness is alsothere, got to be over run by the more course senses surely?By the way this not an argument, I am on a learning curve!Now if a person is proficient meditater, and is able to shut up the dominatingclatter of the mind, (tree full of monkeys), one now moves into the silent modeof the observer.Take one step further. Certain people, yogis, meditaters, and others, havebecome acutely aware of past lives, with it comes past memories, visionsemotions an so on, this I presume is the journey of the jiva complete with theseimpression.The jiva can thus be bonded by passed events also it seems.Thus to me, musing upon this by my unlearned abilities seems to make sense ofBrother Vyas comment pasted below:'You are bondaged because you accept association with inert, while you aresentient. You get liberated when you RENOUNCE the shelter of INERT, as you areSentient.'Om ShantiMike Keenor

------------------------------

This is a very interesting topic.

If we have established by Tat-Tvam-Asi (Supreme Consciousness), that the Jeeva (Embodied Soul) is the same substance as the Paramatma (Supreme Soul),

and if we have also resolved that mind, intellect, etc are only instruments, and therefore "jada padartha" (inert),

what is the relationship of Karma (actions) with Jeeva (embodied soul) ? I presume, gunas (attributes and qualities), being part of prakriti (Nature), are also considered

to be a jada padarth (inert) ......!

Durgesh Mankikar,MD

---------

Then who is the karta self or someone else. you mentioned "Even theSwaroop (self) is not the doer" not clearNeed clarity why desire come. not mind not intelect not swarupa(Self) then ?KIndly help

Vinayak Dalvi

-------------------------------

Man is a product of his thoughts, what he thinks he becomes. By imitating or

following the foot steps of great sains, and believing in the blessed words and

actions of the Divine, one becomes divine himself. The Hindu quote also says,

the knower of Divine becomes divine (Brahmavid brahmaiva bhavathi).

One can experience a strange peace descending on oneself in the presence of

great holy men. The subtle vibrations of those with powerful auspicious thoughts

could ward off severe disasters.

One more quote from Hindu scriptures prove this point further that, mind is the

cause of one's bondage as well as liberation (manas eva manushyaanaam kaaranam

bandha mochayoh).. For mind is just "flow of thoughts over consciousness" and

the thought process decide one's destiny.

Therefore, thoughts are powerful and mind is nothing but thoughts only. One

could not only change the vision of the world around , but can also influence

the vision of others, depending upon the person's strength of the thoughts,

according to the great saints of various Faiths.

Love and Love alone....

P. Gopi Krishna

-------------------------------The thoughts born in our mind are the cause of troubles and happiness

If we are happy with what we have we are happy desires they are the root cause of troubles - There is a proverb among keralite " Like Onam with what we have"

So be happy with what we possess

Vibiesh Cv

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======================

PRIOR POSTING

-------------

Shree Hari

Ram ram

In swamiji's book "Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke liye" it is clearly written " The delusion of bondage being wiped out is called salvation." You yourself have created this bondage . When you consider yourself to be bound, then it is this belief itself that you need to distance yourself from. You (Self) is already free, liberated. Vineet Sarvottam

------------

Not mind but mental locks created by self are the cause of bondage

we create own circles and think that we are bound in a circle.

thanx

Raja Gurdasani

-------------

Hari Om

Mind is not the cause of Bondage and for that reason neither mind, nor intellect, nor ego, nor body nor Gunas or Prakruti as a whole is the cause of Bondage. The shelter of or reliance upon mind/intellect/ego /akruti/Gunas by the Jeeva is the cause of bondage. It is association of Jeeva with these elements that causes Bondage. Association with Gunas and under the influence of that association , the Karmas which Jeeva does…bind him. KARMANU BANDHINI MANUSHYA LOKE (BG 15:2). It is the worldly desires which produce bondage. As Swamiji wrote: These desires reside in JEEVA ( the doer). Hence the seeds or cause of bondage lies inside Jeeva . THAT Jeeva who "adopts/accepts" Jagat ( YAYEDAM DHARYATE JAGAT- BG 7:5) !! That Jeeva who presumes himself to be THE DOER ( AHANKAAR VIMUDHATMA KARTA AHAM ITI MANYATE). "Manyate" means acceptance. Hence BONDAGE LIES IN WRONG ACCEPTANCE. LIBERATION LIES IN RIGHT ACCEPTANCE. Acceptance is the sole pr0rogative and function of SELF ( Jeeva). You are bondaged because you accept association with inert, while you are sentient. You get liberated when you RENOUNCE the shelter of INERT, as you are Sentient.

The form/svaroop of bondage? Me and Mine with the body and the worldly people, things. Saints have said:Main mere ki jevadi, gal bandhyo sansar !( O Jeeva!) In the chains of "me and mine" the world is hanging by your neck !Solution ?Daas Kabira kyon bandhe, jaake Raam adhaar !!O Kabir (Daas- Servant/surrendered) ! Why that (Jeeva) will get bondaged who has basis of Raam (God) ? (Mineness with Paramatma and not with body/world) Hence "accept" - Mere To Girdhar Gopal, Doosaro na Koi!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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It is true because only when we control the mind, we are able tomeditate and through this connect to the Parmatma. Because we cannotcontrol the mind, we are controlled by it and our mind keeps usattatched to worldly things to attain which we go to extraordinarylengths. Thus we use our yukti or technique and shakti or strength. Weforget bhakti or spirituality which leads us to mukti or liberationfrom the endless cycle of birth and death and thus we are condemned tobe born again and again to satisfy our unfulfilled desires. Theultimate goal of uniting with God for which we were born as the rarestof rare, human beings with the capacity of vivek or discrimination istotally forgotten.Hari Shanker Deo

-------------------------------

Shri Hari

Ram Ram

Who is the enjoyer, I can not understand Paani.Asta.?

Please help me to understand the above.

Thanks & Regards

Pawan Kumar Singhal

-------------------------------PARTIAL POSTINGNow reflect on this that "Where does a desire reside?" Many people are of thebelief that desire resides in the mind. But as such the desire does not residein the mind; it only comes into the mind (visits) - Prajahaati yadaakaamaanssarvaanpaarth manogataam" (Gita 2/55). Mind is an internal instrument(anthakaran). An instrument has no desires at all. Does a pen have desire towrite? Does a car have desire to move? No, it does not. If we hold that adesire is in the mind, then when the desire is not satiated, the mind shouldsuffer pain, but instead when the desire is not satiated, the one's ownself(swayam) becoming the "doer and enjoyer" suffers pain. Therefore in fact thedesire does not abide in the mind - intellect (instruments), but is in the doer(kartaa). An instrument (karan) depends on the doer (kartaa). But beingentangled in the duality, in the form of pleasure and pain, caused by thefulfillment or unfulfillment of desires, a man's discriminating faculty (vivek)does not function properly and so he holds that desire to be in the mind.Now reflect on who is the doer? If the mind had been a doer (agent), it wouldhave not acted becoming sub-servient to the intellect. It is everyone'sexperience (anubhav) that when the intellect determines to not to do something,then the mind leaves the desire to do that thing, and when the intellect firmlyresolves to do something, then the mind begins to desire to do that thing. Butthe intellect is also not an independent agent, because intellect is also aninner instrument. When a man derives pleasure from fulfilling a desire, thenhis intellect decides to do that action. But the man who knows that the outcomeof enjoyment of pleasures is only pain, he renounces the pleasure derived fromfulfillment of desires. Thereafter instead of his intellect being inclinedtowards pleasures, decides to renounce the desire for pleasure. The instrumentis dependent on the doer. It is very beneficialand in perfecting an action. "Sadhakatam karanam" (Paani. Asta. 1/4/42) But the doer is independent "Swatantrakartaa" (Paani. Asta. 1/4/54). Even the Swaroop (self) is not the doer; because ifthere was doership in the self (swaroop) then it would never be wiped out. Therefore Bhagwaan has in the Gita negated the doership in the self (swaroop) - "sharirastopi kaunteya ne karoti ne lipyate." (Gita 13/31). In reality, He whois the enjoyer, that same one is the doer.From "Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye" pg 126-127 and "For Salvation of Mankind"in English pg 130-132 by Swami RamsukhdasjiFor ENGLISH WEBSITE please visit: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.netFor full online discourses in Hindi: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org----------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that theyfurther help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

September 30, 2009

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Clearing the pending queue. You will receive a few extra postings next day or so. Ram Ram

--

Is the Mind alone the cause of man's bondage?IN HINDIKYA MAN HI MANUSHYA KE BANDHAN KA KARAN HEIN..?[RAMCHANDRA]--------Ram Ram

NEW POSTING

Dear Ones, Namaste!This is in response to Vinayak Dalviji's question: Then who is the karta self or someone else. you mentioned "Even theSwaroop (self) is not the doer" not clearNeed clarity why desire come. not mind not intelect not swarupa(Self) then ?"Just as shadow is cast when sunlight reflected by an object, Atman shines body and organs of actions, senses, mind, intellect, and a shadow is cast called Ego, a sense of "I/me" due to identification with body, the instrument! Consequently, "I/me" thinks it really exist independently. This is ignorance on the part of shadow, nevertheless.Shadow(me) has two parts: Doer or Karta due to identification with organ of actions and Enjoyer or Bhokta due to identification with sense organs. The shadow is really non-existent as such, its reality is Atman-Existence with no identification! Until knowledge dawns, shadow continues living as if doer and enjoyer! Desire: When any or some combination or all of sense organs(indiryas) contact its respective objects such as forms(seeing), sound(hearing), smell(smelling), tastes(rasas), touch(tectile sensations), a desire arises fueled by past memory of pleasures and pains stored in mind. As one appreciates, sense-organs are fully exposed to outside world and contacts are inevitable!Desire was not resident anywhere in the instrument(mind-intellect-senses), it just arose as "I want or I don't want" this. Namaskar..Pratap Bhatt

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Cause of Bondage is Avidya or Maya which means that when soul passes throughSansaran and comes in proximity with Prakriti consisiting of five elements,automatically soul gets entrapped with Maya. A false Ego comes into existenceand pure soul is driven into back seat.Under the effect of Ego,Mana,Budhhi,Chitta and Ahankar comes into play.These have to be dissolved with the help of Divine Knowledge or BrahmaaVidya.Mind which divides outside world into good and bad or duality has to bedissolved by experiencing Truth as it is which is of non-dualcharacter.Bhagwad=Geeta Verse 14/2 deals with the method of coming out ofDuality and consequently dissolving the mind. Matra Sparshaha Tu Kaunteya,SheetUshna Sukhadukhadaha,Agamapayinah Anityaha;tam titikshaswa,Bharat.Budhhi is to be transformed into Vivek-Budhhi and onwards to Pragna bydestroying first Moha and then all sorts of Desires except to realiseone-self.Verse 52/2 mentions as under:Yada te Moha Kalilam, Budhhihi Vyatitarishyati and thenverse 55 mentions :Prajahati Yada Kaman,Sarvan Partha Manogatan,Atmani eve AtmanaTushtah,Sthit-Pragnah Tad Uchyate.Practice with the help of these twoverses,converts egoistic intelligeence into Pragna.Wandering Chitta has to be established in soul. See verse18/6 Yada ViniyatamChittam, Atmani eva Avatishte,Nihispruhah Sarvakamebhyah,Yukta Iti UchyateTada.This can be achieved by Meditationa shown in this hapter and alsoPara-Bhakti described in Shrimad Bhagvatam.Ahamkara pari-passu and finally can be and should be destroyed totally by thehelp of Verse14/5 which reads as: Na Kartutwam Naa Karmani Lokasya SrujatiPrabhuhu,Na Karma Phal Sanyogam,Swabhavah tu Pravartate.There is no doer except Nature as mentioned in Verse 27/3 :PrakruteheKriyamanani,Gunaihi Karmani Sarvashah,Ahamkar Vimudha Atma, Karta Aham itiManyate,So it is not the mind alone which binds; but a parliament of Mana,Budhhi,Chittaand Ahamkara with its stream coming from Avidya binds the soul in repeatedcycles of Birth and DeathJayantilal Shah-----------------------

Hari OmThis Satsanga is really taking Divine heights. Each and every response is sincere, thought provoking and GENUINE. Yes! This is how a Sadhak must think, discriminate.Dear Brother Mike:Indeed, Brother, it is very deep. I will do my best, to impart clarity. YOUR DEFINITION OF JEEVA IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, and PRECISE. Yes ! That is how Jeeva is defined.Re a confirmed brain dead person Right. Now here "conscience" is something between Self (Sentient) and Body (Inert). It is as good as Self. Sentient itself- agent of God, Real advisor to Jeeva; gets converted into Realisation in the end. "Conscience" (Viveka) has 2 meanings. One- the Function- of Discrimination. That is more like intellect, say, higher Intellect (stablised). Two- An element more like/near to Pure Self: an entity in itself, a teaser, one who reminds, one who shows truth to Jeeva; (of course discrimination is inbuilt), one that never tells/supports a lie,always lets truth prevail inside you. One who never forgets to tell you the truth. One who takes away your peace, if you are sinning. You remember Mike, there was one thread on this Divine Forum reg Story from Yoga Vaashistha, which was extensively covered by me and Shashikalaji ? There some one held Jeeva and countered him, questioned him, awakened him from ignorance, and sufferings. That "Conscience"- better Hindi word is something like ANTARATMA- Voice of Conscience. (We often say: My Conscience does not allow me this action.) I referred to that element. Now that is not intellect,that is not inert- BECAUSE it never CHANGES !! Re: Past life remembrance The journey is not complete here. Because what you have described is "SIDDHI" and as you yourself said in the next paras- it still binds you ! There You are absolutely right.Thus, as I read your message, the paradox is in your understanding, perhaps, reg "Conscience" : its meaning, role and nature (element) only. Because its "discrimination" meaning does not fully fit into. What fits into is that conscience which was referred in that Yoga Vaashishtha story! I thought honestly (in my personal view) that this "conscience". ( separate from Jeeva; agent of God in Jeeva, who ultimately merges into Realisation- In my personal view- Pure vocal God) may see for some moments what senses in a brain dead person cant ! It was a personal thought view. I am not sure. No one can be on this. Definitely sense organs cant be seeing what you described. Hence who remained, except Jeeva/ God/ Antaratma ? I dont see anything wrong if you terms it as "subtle consciousness" - not an inappropriate term either !

Then there is one more recent thought. (It occured to me after I posted first reply). As per Gita 15:8 , at the time of death your sense organs (subtle body- mind/intellect/ego)) are picked by Jeeva just as air picks fragrance. (Unless when you have realised self/God before death). When you are dead, thus, those sense organs remain alive in you, and they may pick such experiences, and recall when you regain consciousness - Near Death Experiences ! Dear Brother DurgeshjiQ What is the relationship of Karma (actions) with Jeeva (embodied soul) ? Answer is there is no relationship in fact. As a law no karma, however, great that Karma may be is capable of reaching SELF. However, if the karmas are made selflessly for welfare/service of others,(without expecting anything in return) then those karmas (technically called by Gita as AKARMAS) cut your BONDAGE ropes and free you from worldly chains. Reason: You are bondaged by your past karmas (which you did for selfish reasons). Your debts (bondage) get cleared when do not do anything for self and on the contrary only do for "others" !Dear Brother Vinayakji If Pure soul is white, and pure inert is black, then Jeeva is grey ! In fact, self is ever free. When self associates with world/adopts it, it "becomes" Jeeva (Jeeva"bhootam"- BG 7:5). Hence it is a right statement that neither pure self (white) is doer, nor inert (jad) prakruti (black) is doer. Doer is only Jeeva, because it ASSUMES himself to be doer !!Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B --------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

To further understand Vyasji's posting, from book "Maanav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye" (hindi) pg. 144-151 and For Salvation of Mankind in English. How to Realize the Self, being free of Me and Mine. It will be good if you can read this.

Vineet Sarvottam

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A Bhajan by Meeraji rings in the ear:

"Upadi Ganthadi Vethani re kem Nakhi Devay? Eh to Chhe Ranchoodlal Shethni re Kem Nakhhi Devay?"

Transliterated as

Call it carrying a load of burden and how will you be able to throw it away. But call it a load you are carrying for Him and How can you throw it? Hemendra Parikh

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Mind is the main cause of bondage in life. If we can free ourselves from the mind (that is not accept our affinity with it) then we will be freed. S S Bhatt

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Dear Sadaks,Nice with the views of sadaks. But in certain subjects like this, it is better one refers the script pertaining to this subject, rather than giving our own multiple views which may not give authentic reply that our sri ramachandra wants. KINDLY REFER ''ARTHA PANCHAKAM'' WHICH REVEALS EXACT ANSWER TO THIS PARTICULAR QUERY. I wish sadaks reply to ordinary person in mind, by avoiding words of inert, beyond conciseness, only God nothing else etcSadaks due you know why God entertains kamyartha Baktha? Why his wishes are granted?jai sri krishnab.sathyanarayan

--

respected frnds

either my knowldge is incorrect, or there is a mistake here, between english word mind, and hindi word man. mind= brain, while man=heart.

pl clearify.

kind regards Dnkayshap Nath

--

PRIOR POSTING

Hari OmDear Pawanji ! You asked "who enjoys" ? Answer is Jeeva (self) enjoys. Who suffers? Answer is whoever enjoys, necessarily, suffers. Jeeva suffers ! Why Jeeva suffers? Because of Bondage !Why bondage arises? Because of desires. Desires only produce sufferings and nothing else except sufferings. Why desires arise? Because of association with Jagat (Inert) ! How association with Jagat manifests ? Through "me and mine" with the Jagat ! Hence "me and mine" (with reference to Jagat) is the form of Bondage.How to get freedom ? Renounce either "me" (Jnana Yoga); or Renounce "mine" (Karma Yoga); or Change "me and mine" (Bhakti Yoga) !!As simple as that !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

--------

-Shree Hari-I would like to reflect on Brother Vyas' post.I have entered into dialog with Brother Vyas in the past on the same subject.Even when one reads the explanation, given by his good self and that of Swamiji,it is most difficult to get ones head around, with a crystal clearunderstanding. (Well speaking for myself).OK Jiva is described as the immortal essence that goes from birth to birth, (perWikipedia).So this essence, becomes attached to this 'Human'. (That belongs to nature andis not permanent).At this point I would like to reflect on a past point I brought up, regarding aconfirmed brain dead person on the operating table, who was aware of what wasgoing on in the theater. This was an extreme case, (no blood in brain).Recalled not only what was said, but also able to describe the various uniqueinstruments used. I recall Vyasji referred to conscience, I am familiar with theterm ' subtle consciousness'.Now here is a paradox; on the one hand you have the brain perceiving, by meansof eyes, ears .......the senses. But at a more subtle level an awareness is alsothere, got to be over run by the more course senses surely?By the way this not an argument, I am on a learning curve!Now if a person is proficient meditater, and is able to shut up the dominatingclatter of the mind, (tree full of monkeys), one now moves into the silent modeof the observer.Take one step further. Certain people, yogis, meditaters, and others, havebecome acutely aware of past lives, with it comes past memories, visionsemotions an so on, this I presume is the journey of the jiva complete with theseimpression.The jiva can thus be bonded by passed events also it seems.Thus to me, musing upon this by my unlearned abilities seems to make sense ofBrother Vyas comment pasted below:'You are bondaged because you accept association with inert, while you aresentient. You get liberated when you RENOUNCE the shelter of INERT, as you areSentient.'Om ShantiMike Keenor

------------------------------

This is a very interesting topic.

If we have established by Tat-Tvam-Asi (Supreme Consciousness), that the Jeeva (Embodied Soul) is the same substance as the Paramatma (Supreme Soul),

and if we have also resolved that mind, intellect, etc are only instruments, and therefore "jada padartha" (inert),

what is the relationship of Karma (actions) with Jeeva (embodied soul) ? I presume, gunas (attributes and qualities), being part of prakriti (Nature), are also considered

to be a jada padarth (inert) ......!

Durgesh Mankikar,MD

---------

Then who is the karta self or someone else. you mentioned "Even theSwaroop (self) is not the doer" not clearNeed clarity why desire come. not mind not intelect not swarupa(Self) then ?KIndly help

Vinayak Dalvi

-------------------------------

Man is a product of his thoughts, what he thinks he becomes. By imitating or

following the foot steps of great sains, and believing in the blessed words and

actions of the Divine, one becomes divine himself. The Hindu quote also says,

the knower of Divine becomes divine (Brahmavid brahmaiva bhavathi).

One can experience a strange peace descending on oneself in the presence of

great holy men. The subtle vibrations of those with powerful auspicious thoughts

could ward off severe disasters.

One more quote from Hindu scriptures prove this point further that, mind is the

cause of one's bondage as well as liberation (manas eva manushyaanaam kaaranam

bandha mochayoh).. For mind is just "flow of thoughts over consciousness" and

the thought process decide one's destiny.

Therefore, thoughts are powerful and mind is nothing but thoughts only. One

could not only change the vision of the world around , but can also influence

the vision of others, depending upon the person's strength of the thoughts,

according to the great saints of various Faiths.

Love and Love alone....

P. Gopi Krishna

-------------------------------The thoughts born in our mind are the cause of troubles and happiness

If we are happy with what we have we are happy desires they are the root cause of troubles - There is a proverb among keralite " Like Onam with what we have"

So be happy with what we possess

Vibiesh Cv

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======================

PRIOR POSTING

-------------

Shree Hari

Ram ram

In swamiji's book "Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke liye" it is clearly written " The delusion of bondage being wiped out is called salvation." You yourself have created this bondage . When you consider yourself to be bound, then it is this belief itself that you need to distance yourself from. You (Self) is already free, liberated. Vineet Sarvottam

------------

Not mind but mental locks created by self are the cause of bondage

we create own circles and think that we are bound in a circle.

thanx

Raja Gurdasani

-------------

Hari Om

Mind is not the cause of Bondage and for that reason neither mind, nor intellect, nor ego, nor body nor Gunas or Prakruti as a whole is the cause of Bondage. The shelter of or reliance upon mind/intellect/ego /akruti/Gunas by the Jeeva is the cause of bondage. It is association of Jeeva with these elements that causes Bondage. Association with Gunas and under the influence of that association , the Karmas which Jeeva does…bind him. KARMANU BANDHINI MANUSHYA LOKE (BG 15:2). It is the worldly desires which produce bondage. As Swamiji wrote: These desires reside in JEEVA ( the doer). Hence the seeds or cause of bondage lies inside Jeeva . THAT Jeeva who "adopts/accepts" Jagat ( YAYEDAM DHARYATE JAGAT- BG 7:5) !! That Jeeva who presumes himself to be THE DOER ( AHANKAAR VIMUDHATMA KARTA AHAM ITI MANYATE). "Manyate" means acceptance. Hence BONDAGE LIES IN WRONG ACCEPTANCE. LIBERATION LIES IN RIGHT ACCEPTANCE. Acceptance is the sole pr0rogative and function of SELF ( Jeeva). You are bondaged because you accept association with inert, while you are sentient. You get liberated when you RENOUNCE the shelter of INERT, as you are Sentient.

The form/svaroop of bondage? Me and Mine with the body and the worldly people, things. Saints have said:Main mere ki jevadi, gal bandhyo sansar !( O Jeeva!) In the chains of "me and mine" the world is hanging by your neck !Solution ?Daas Kabira kyon bandhe, jaake Raam adhaar !!O Kabir (Daas- Servant/surrendered) ! Why that (Jeeva) will get bondaged who has basis of Raam (God) ? (Mineness with Paramatma and not with body/world) Hence "accept" - Mere To Girdhar Gopal, Doosaro na Koi!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

--------------

It is true because only when we control the mind, we are able tomeditate and through this connect to the Parmatma. Because we cannotcontrol the mind, we are controlled by it and our mind keeps usattatched to worldly things to attain which we go to extraordinarylengths. Thus we use our yukti or technique and shakti or strength. Weforget bhakti or spirituality which leads us to mukti or liberationfrom the endless cycle of birth and death and thus we are condemned tobe born again and again to satisfy our unfulfilled desires. Theultimate goal of uniting with God for which we were born as the rarestof rare, human beings with the capacity of vivek or discrimination istotally forgotten.Hari Shanker Deo

-------------------------------

Shri Hari

Ram Ram

Who is the enjoyer, I can not understand Paani.Asta.?

Please help me to understand the above.

Thanks & Regards

Pawan Kumar Singhal

-------------------------------PARTIAL POSTINGNow reflect on this that "Where does a desire reside?" Many people are of thebelief that desire resides in the mind. But as such the desire does not residein the mind; it only comes into the mind (visits) - Prajahaati yadaakaamaanssarvaanpaarth manogataam" (Gita 2/55). Mind is an internal instrument(anthakaran). An instrument has no desires at all. Does a pen have desire towrite? Does a car have desire to move? No, it does not. If we hold that adesire is in the mind, then when the desire is not satiated, the mind shouldsuffer pain, but instead when the desire is not satiated, the one's ownself(swayam) becoming the "doer and enjoyer" suffers pain. Therefore in fact thedesire does not abide in the mind - intellect (instruments), but is in the doer(kartaa). An instrument (karan) depends on the doer (kartaa). But beingentangled in the duality, in the form of pleasure and pain, caused by thefulfillment or unfulfillment of desires, a man's discriminating faculty (vivek)does not function properly and so he holds that desire to be in the mind.Now reflect on who is the doer? If the mind had been a doer (agent), it wouldhave not acted becoming sub-servient to the intellect. It is everyone'sexperience (anubhav) that when the intellect determines to not to do something,then the mind leaves the desire to do that thing, and when the intellect firmlyresolves to do something, then the mind begins to desire to do that thing. Butthe intellect is also not an independent agent, because intellect is also aninner instrument. When a man derives pleasure from fulfilling a desire, thenhis intellect decides to do that action. But the man who knows that the outcomeof enjoyment of pleasures is only pain, he renounces the pleasure derived fromfulfillment of desires. Thereafter instead of his intellect being inclinedtowards pleasures, decides to renounce the desire for pleasure. The instrumentis dependent on the doer. It is very beneficialand in perfecting an action. "Sadhakatam karanam" (Paani. Asta. 1/4/42) But the doer is independent "Swatantrakartaa" (Paani. Asta. 1/4/54). Even the Swaroop (self) is not the doer; because ifthere was doership in the self (swaroop) then it would never be wiped out. Therefore Bhagwaan has in the Gita negated the doership in the self (swaroop) - "sharirastopi kaunteya ne karoti ne lipyate." (Gita 13/31). In reality, He whois the enjoyer, that same one is the doer.From "Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye" pg 126-127 and "For Salvation of Mankind"in English pg 130-132 by Swami RamsukhdasjiFor ENGLISH WEBSITE please visit: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.netFor full online discourses in Hindi: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org----------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that theyfurther help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

October 2, 2009

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Clearing the pending queue. You will receive a few extra postings next day or so. Ram Ram

--

Is the Mind alone the cause of man's bondage?IN HINDIKYA MAN HI MANUSHYA KE BANDHAN KA KARAN HEIN..?[RAMCHANDRA]--------Ram Ram

NEW POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

What is the mind alone the cause of man's bondage?

In the question itself, the answer is given. Mind (your belief) is the cause of man's bondage. Please see in the book "Maanav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye" where it is stated that "considering the mind-intellect as your own is the main flaw/mistake". (Pg 26, line 10) and "Liberation does not take place" rather one is already liberated." (pg 27, line 6-7). Finally, "even though we may consider ourselves to be bound, but in reality we are free, liberated." (pg 95 lines 14, 15). Even now if you consider yourself to be bound, then what to speak of Swamiji, even what can Paramatma do?

So be it,

Vineet Sarvottam

--------

NO

According to Bhagavad Gita "MAN" (Mind) is APARA prikriti

How can JADA (inert) be cause of bondage ?

Its chetan (consciousness) attracted towards jada (inert) is the cause of bondage

Prikritisthani karshati....

Thanx

Raja Gurdasani

--------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

The mind is not "me". I cannot control it's thoughts. Therefore simply disassociate from it - says Swamiji. How can something that is not "me" cause bondage ? Do not accept it as your own. ... in practical life this means do not become a slave to it... do not become happy or unhappy when disturbances arise. Situations come and go.. but they will pass away... "sheetoshna sukhdukhadah".simply endure and remain unaffected. "taansstitiskhasva" (Gita2:14). Now how can mind be the cause of bondage????

Meera Das, Ram Ram

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Dear Sadaks,The mind is strongly controlled by Vasanas and Past Karmas. These in turn fixes the mind on bondages to whom all our Karmas due. This Bagavan` s Leela Vibhuti, Only to uplift you to divinity. But one should avoid fresh bad karmas being done. Ravana was given several warnings by all and last day when he fell in war Sri Rama said, "Go and come back tomorrow". Which meant come with good decision. Mind did not allow him to surrender to Sri Rama as his Karma was from Vaikunt as Jaya and Vijaya. B.Sathyanarayan

----------Well...Yes, mind is the sole cause of man's bondage...

Even Vedic philosophy propagates:-

Mann eav manushyanaam kaaranam bandh mokshyoh

--Brahmbindu upnishad

--Shaathyaayni Upnishad

--Narad Puran

--Panch dashi

--Tejo bindu upnishad

It means that mind is the only cause for mind's bondage in the material

world.Even in Gita Lord Krishna said to Arjuna to surrender his mind:-

Mannmanabhav madbhakto madyaajimaam namaskuru

--Gita(18.65 & 9.36)

He asks him to do the duties of material world through his body but surrender

his mind to him...

Tasmaat sarveshukaaleshu maa manusmar vudhya cha

--Gita(8.7)

That is why Mind is the sole cause for man's bondage...

---------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Ones, Namaste!This is in response to Vinayak Dalviji's question: Then who is the karta self or someone else. you mentioned "Even theSwaroop (self) is not the doer" not clearNeed clarity why desire come. not mind not intelect not swarupa(Self) then ?"Just as shadow is cast when sunlight reflected by an object, Atman shines body and organs of actions, senses, mind, intellect, and a shadow is cast called Ego, a sense of "I/me" due to identification with body, the instrument! Consequently, "I/me" thinks it really exist independently. This is ignorance on the part of shadow, nevertheless.Shadow(me) has two parts: Doer or Karta due to identification with organ of actions and Enjoyer or Bhokta due to identification with sense organs. The shadow is really non-existent as such, its reality is Atman-Existence with no identification! Until knowledge dawns, shadow continues living as if doer and enjoyer! Desire: When any or some combination or all of sense organs(indiryas) contact its respective objects such as forms(seeing), sound(hearing), smell(smelling), tastes(rasas), touch(tectile sensations), a desire arises fueled by past memory of pleasures and pains stored in mind. As one appreciates, sense-organs are fully exposed to outside world and contacts are inevitable!Desire was not resident anywhere in the instrument(mind-intellect-senses), it just arose as "I want or I don't want" this. Namaskar..Pratap Bhatt

------------------------

Cause of Bondage is Avidya or Maya which means that when soul passes throughSansaran and comes in proximity with Prakriti consisiting of five elements,automatically soul gets entrapped with Maya. A false Ego comes into existenceand pure soul is driven into back seat.Under the effect of Ego,Mana,Budhhi,Chitta and Ahankar comes into play.These have to be dissolved with the help of Divine Knowledge or BrahmaaVidya.Mind which divides outside world into good and bad or duality has to bedissolved by experiencing Truth as it is which is of non-dualcharacter.Bhagwad=Geeta Verse 14/2 deals with the method of coming out ofDuality and consequently dissolving the mind. Matra Sparshaha Tu Kaunteya,SheetUshna Sukhadukhadaha,Agamapayinah Anityaha;tam titikshaswa,Bharat.Budhhi is to be transformed into Vivek-Budhhi and onwards to Pragna bydestroying first Moha and then all sorts of Desires except to realiseone-self.Verse 52/2 mentions as under:Yada te Moha Kalilam, Budhhihi Vyatitarishyati and thenverse 55 mentions :Prajahati Yada Kaman,Sarvan Partha Manogatan,Atmani eve AtmanaTushtah,Sthit-Pragnah Tad Uchyate.Practice with the help of these twoverses,converts egoistic intelligeence into Pragna.Wandering Chitta has to be established in soul. See verse18/6 Yada ViniyatamChittam, Atmani eva Avatishte,Nihispruhah Sarvakamebhyah,Yukta Iti UchyateTada.This can be achieved by Meditationa shown in this hapter and alsoPara-Bhakti described in Shrimad Bhagvatam.Ahamkara pari-passu and finally can be and should be destroyed totally by thehelp of Verse14/5 which reads as: Na Kartutwam Naa Karmani Lokasya SrujatiPrabhuhu,Na Karma Phal Sanyogam,Swabhavah tu Pravartate.There is no doer except Nature as mentioned in Verse 27/3 :PrakruteheKriyamanani,Gunaihi Karmani Sarvashah,Ahamkar Vimudha Atma, Karta Aham itiManyate,So it is not the mind alone which binds; but a parliament of Mana,Budhhi,Chittaand Ahamkara with its stream coming from Avidya binds the soul in repeatedcycles of Birth and DeathJayantilal Shah-----------------------

Hari OmThis Satsanga is really taking Divine heights. Each and every response is sincere, thought provoking and GENUINE. Yes! This is how a Sadhak must think, discriminate.Dear Brother Mike:Indeed, Brother, it is very deep. I will do my best, to impart clarity. YOUR DEFINITION OF JEEVA IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, and PRECISE. Yes ! That is how Jeeva is defined.Re a confirmed brain dead person Right. Now here "conscience" is something between Self (Sentient) and Body (Inert). It is as good as Self. Sentient itself- agent of God, Real advisor to Jeeva; gets converted into Realisation in the end. "Conscience" (Viveka) has 2 meanings. One- the Function- of Discrimination. That is more like intellect, say, higher Intellect (stablised). Two- An element more like/near to Pure Self: an entity in itself, a teaser, one who reminds, one who shows truth to Jeeva; (of course discrimination is inbuilt), one that never tells/supports a lie,always lets truth prevail inside you. One who never forgets to tell you the truth. One who takes away your peace, if you are sinning. You remember Mike, there was one thread on this Divine Forum reg Story from Yoga Vaashistha, which was extensively covered by me and Shashikalaji ? There some one held Jeeva and countered him, questioned him, awakened him from ignorance, and sufferings. That "Conscience"- better Hindi word is something like ANTARATMA- Voice of Conscience. (We often say: My Conscience does not allow me this action.) I referred to that element. Now that is not intellect,that is not inert- BECAUSE it never CHANGES !! Re: Past life remembrance The journey is not complete here. Because what you have described is "SIDDHI" and as you yourself said in the next paras- it still binds you ! There You are absolutely right.Thus, as I read your message, the paradox is in your understanding, perhaps, reg "Conscience" : its meaning, role and nature (element) only. Because its "discrimination" meaning does not fully fit into. What fits into is that conscience which was referred in that Yoga Vaashishtha story! I thought honestly (in my personal view) that this "conscience". ( separate from Jeeva; agent of God in Jeeva, who ultimately merges into Realisation- In my personal view- Pure vocal God) may see for some moments what senses in a brain dead person cant ! It was a personal thought view. I am not sure. No one can be on this. Definitely sense organs cant be seeing what you described. Hence who remained, except Jeeva/ God/ Antaratma ? I dont see anything wrong if you terms it as "subtle consciousness" - not an inappropriate term either !

Then there is one more recent thought. (It occured to me after I posted first reply). As per Gita 15:8 , at the time of death your sense organs (subtle body- mind/intellect/ego)) are picked by Jeeva just as air picks fragrance. (Unless when you have realised self/God before death). When you are dead, thus, those sense organs remain alive in you, and they may pick such experiences, and recall when you regain consciousness - Near Death Experiences ! Dear Brother DurgeshjiQ What is the relationship of Karma (actions) with Jeeva (embodied soul) ? Answer is there is no relationship in fact. As a law no karma, however, great that Karma may be is capable of reaching SELF. However, if the karmas are made selflessly for welfare/service of others,(without expecting anything in return) then those karmas (technically called by Gita as AKARMAS) cut your BONDAGE ropes and free you from worldly chains. Reason: You are bondaged by your past karmas (which you did for selfish reasons). Your debts (bondage) get cleared when do not do anything for self and on the contrary only do for "others" !Dear Brother Vinayakji If Pure soul is white, and pure inert is black, then Jeeva is grey ! In fact, self is ever free. When self associates with world/adopts it, it "becomes" Jeeva (Jeeva"bhootam"- BG 7:5). Hence it is a right statement that neither pure self (white) is doer, nor inert (jad) prakruti (black) is doer. Doer is only Jeeva, because it ASSUMES himself to be doer !!Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B --------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

To further understand Vyasji's posting, from book "Maanav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye" (hindi) pg. 144-151 and For Salvation of Mankind in English. How to Realize the Self, being free of Me and Mine. It will be good if you can read this.

Vineet Sarvottam

--------------------

A Bhajan by Meeraji rings in the ear:

"Upadi Ganthadi Vethani re kem Nakhi Devay? Eh to Chhe Ranchoodlal Shethni re Kem Nakhhi Devay?"

Transliterated as

Call it carrying a load of burden and how will you be able to throw it away. But call it a load you are carrying for Him and How can you throw it? Hemendra Parikh

--------------------

Mind is the main cause of bondage in life. If we can free ourselves from the mind (that is not accept our affinity with it) then we will be freed. S S Bhatt

--------------------

Dear Sadaks,Nice with the views of sadaks. But in certain subjects like this, it is better one refers the script pertaining to this subject, rather than giving our own multiple views which may not give authentic reply that our sri ramachandra wants. KINDLY REFER ''ARTHA PANCHAKAM'' WHICH REVEALS EXACT ANSWER TO THIS PARTICULAR QUERY. I wish sadaks reply to ordinary person in mind, by avoiding words of inert, beyond conciseness, only God nothing else etcSadaks due you know why God entertains kamyartha Baktha? Why his wishes are granted?jai sri krishnab.sathyanarayan

--

respected frnds

either my knowldge is incorrect, or there is a mistake here, between english word mind, and hindi word man. mind= brain, while man=heart.

pl clearify.

kind regards Dnkayshap Nath

--

PRIOR POSTING

Hari OmDear Pawanji ! You asked "who enjoys" ? Answer is Jeeva (self) enjoys. Who suffers? Answer is whoever enjoys, necessarily, suffers. Jeeva suffers ! Why Jeeva suffers? Because of Bondage !Why bondage arises? Because of desires. Desires only produce sufferings and nothing else except sufferings. Why desires arise? Because of association with Jagat (Inert) ! How association with Jagat manifests ? Through "me and mine" with the Jagat ! Hence "me and mine" (with reference to Jagat) is the form of Bondage.How to get freedom ? Renounce either "me" (Jnana Yoga); or Renounce "mine" (Karma Yoga); or Change "me and mine" (Bhakti Yoga) !!As simple as that !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

--------

-Shree Hari-I would like to reflect on Brother Vyas' post.I have entered into dialog with Brother Vyas in the past on the same subject.Even when one reads the explanation, given by his good self and that of Swamiji,it is most difficult to get ones head around, with a crystal clearunderstanding. (Well speaking for myself).OK Jiva is described as the immortal essence that goes from birth to birth, (perWikipedia).So this essence, becomes attached to this 'Human'. (That belongs to nature andis not permanent).At this point I would like to reflect on a past point I brought up, regarding aconfirmed brain dead person on the operating table, who was aware of what wasgoing on in the theater. This was an extreme case, (no blood in brain).Recalled not only what was said, but also able to describe the various uniqueinstruments used. I recall Vyasji referred to conscience, I am familiar with theterm ' subtle consciousness'.Now here is a paradox; on the one hand you have the brain perceiving, by meansof eyes, ears .......the senses. But at a more subtle level an awareness is alsothere, got to be over run by the more course senses surely?By the way this not an argument, I am on a learning curve!Now if a person is proficient meditater, and is able to shut up the dominatingclatter of the mind, (tree full of monkeys), one now moves into the silent modeof the observer.Take one step further. Certain people, yogis, meditaters, and others, havebecome acutely aware of past lives, with it comes past memories, visionsemotions an so on, this I presume is the journey of the jiva complete with theseimpression.The jiva can thus be bonded by passed events also it seems.Thus to me, musing upon this by my unlearned abilities seems to make sense ofBrother Vyas comment pasted below:'You are bondaged because you accept association with inert, while you aresentient. You get liberated when you RENOUNCE the shelter of INERT, as you areSentient.'Om ShantiMike Keenor

------------------------------

This is a very interesting topic.

If we have established by Tat-Tvam-Asi (Supreme Consciousness), that the Jeeva (Embodied Soul) is the same substance as the Paramatma (Supreme Soul),

and if we have also resolved that mind, intellect, etc are only instruments, and therefore "jada padartha" (inert),

what is the relationship of Karma (actions) with Jeeva (embodied soul) ? I presume, gunas (attributes and qualities), being part of prakriti (Nature), are also considered

to be a jada padarth (inert) ......!

Durgesh Mankikar,MD

---------

Then who is the karta self or someone else. you mentioned "Even theSwaroop (self) is not the doer" not clearNeed clarity why desire come. not mind not intelect not swarupa(Self) then ?KIndly help

Vinayak Dalvi

-------------------------------

Man is a product of his thoughts, what he thinks he becomes. By imitating or

following the foot steps of great sains, and believing in the blessed words and

actions of the Divine, one becomes divine himself. The Hindu quote also says,

the knower of Divine becomes divine (Brahmavid brahmaiva bhavathi).

One can experience a strange peace descending on oneself in the presence of

great holy men. The subtle vibrations of those with powerful auspicious thoughts

could ward off severe disasters.

One more quote from Hindu scriptures prove this point further that, mind is the

cause of one's bondage as well as liberation (manas eva manushyaanaam kaaranam

bandha mochayoh).. For mind is just "flow of thoughts over consciousness" and

the thought process decide one's destiny.

Therefore, thoughts are powerful and mind is nothing but thoughts only. One

could not only change the vision of the world around , but can also influence

the vision of others, depending upon the person's strength of the thoughts,

according to the great saints of various Faiths.

Love and Love alone....

P. Gopi Krishna

-------------------------------The thoughts born in our mind are the cause of troubles and happiness

If we are happy with what we have we are happy desires they are the root cause of troubles - There is a proverb among keralite " Like Onam with what we have"

So be happy with what we possess

Vibiesh Cv

-------------------

======================

PRIOR POSTING

-------------

Shree Hari

Ram ram

In swamiji's book "Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke liye" it is clearly written " The delusion of bondage being wiped out is called salvation." You yourself have created this bondage . When you consider yourself to be bound, then it is this belief itself that you need to distance yourself from. You (Self) is already free, liberated. Vineet Sarvottam

------------

Not mind but mental locks created by self are the cause of bondage

we create own circles and think that we are bound in a circle.

thanx

Raja Gurdasani

-------------

Hari Om

Mind is not the cause of Bondage and for that reason neither mind, nor intellect, nor ego, nor body nor Gunas or Prakruti as a whole is the cause of Bondage. The shelter of or reliance upon mind/intellect/ego /akruti/Gunas by the Jeeva is the cause of bondage. It is association of Jeeva with these elements that causes Bondage. Association with Gunas and under the influence of that association , the Karmas which Jeeva does…bind him. KARMANU BANDHINI MANUSHYA LOKE (BG 15:2). It is the worldly desires which produce bondage. As Swamiji wrote: These desires reside in JEEVA ( the doer). Hence the seeds or cause of bondage lies inside Jeeva . THAT Jeeva who "adopts/accepts" Jagat ( YAYEDAM DHARYATE JAGAT- BG 7:5) !! That Jeeva who presumes himself to be THE DOER ( AHANKAAR VIMUDHATMA KARTA AHAM ITI MANYATE). "Manyate" means acceptance. Hence BONDAGE LIES IN WRONG ACCEPTANCE. LIBERATION LIES IN RIGHT ACCEPTANCE. Acceptance is the sole pr0rogative and function of SELF ( Jeeva). You are bondaged because you accept association with inert, while you are sentient. You get liberated when you RENOUNCE the shelter of INERT, as you are Sentient.

The form/svaroop of bondage? Me and Mine with the body and the worldly people, things. Saints have said:Main mere ki jevadi, gal bandhyo sansar !( O Jeeva!) In the chains of "me and mine" the world is hanging by your neck !Solution ?Daas Kabira kyon bandhe, jaake Raam adhaar !!O Kabir (Daas- Servant/surrendered) ! Why that (Jeeva) will get bondaged who has basis of Raam (God) ? (Mineness with Paramatma and not with body/world) Hence "accept" - Mere To Girdhar Gopal, Doosaro na Koi!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

--------------

It is true because only when we control the mind, we are able tomeditate and through this connect to the Parmatma. Because we cannotcontrol the mind, we are controlled by it and our mind keeps usattatched to worldly things to attain which we go to extraordinarylengths. Thus we use our yukti or technique and shakti or strength. Weforget bhakti or spirituality which leads us to mukti or liberationfrom the endless cycle of birth and death and thus we are condemned tobe born again and again to satisfy our unfulfilled desires. Theultimate goal of uniting with God for which we were born as the rarestof rare, human beings with the capacity of vivek or discrimination istotally forgotten.Hari Shanker Deo

-------------------------------

Shri Hari

Ram Ram

Who is the enjoyer, I can not understand Paani.Asta.?

Please help me to understand the above.

Thanks & Regards

Pawan Kumar Singhal

-------------------------------PARTIAL POSTINGNow reflect on this that "Where does a desire reside?" Many people are of thebelief that desire resides in the mind. But as such the desire does not residein the mind; it only comes into the mind (visits) - Prajahaati yadaakaamaanssarvaanpaarth manogataam" (Gita 2/55). Mind is an internal instrument(anthakaran). An instrument has no desires at all. Does a pen have desire towrite? Does a car have desire to move? No, it does not. If we hold that adesire is in the mind, then when the desire is not satiated, the mind shouldsuffer pain, but instead when the desire is not satiated, the one's ownself(swayam) becoming the "doer and enjoyer" suffers pain. Therefore in fact thedesire does not abide in the mind - intellect (instruments), but is in the doer(kartaa). An instrument (karan) depends on the doer (kartaa). But beingentangled in the duality, in the form of pleasure and pain, caused by thefulfillment or unfulfillment of desires, a man's discriminating faculty (vivek)does not function properly and so he holds that desire to be in the mind.Now reflect on who is the doer? If the mind had been a doer (agent), it wouldhave not acted becoming sub-servient to the intellect. It is everyone'sexperience (anubhav) that when the intellect determines to not to do something,then the mind leaves the desire to do that thing, and when the intellect firmlyresolves to do something, then the mind begins to desire to do that thing. Butthe intellect is also not an independent agent, because intellect is also aninner instrument. When a man derives pleasure from fulfilling a desire, thenhis intellect decides to do that action. But the man who knows that the outcomeof enjoyment of pleasures is only pain, he renounces the pleasure derived fromfulfillment of desires. Thereafter instead of his intellect being inclinedtowards pleasures, decides to renounce the desire for pleasure. The instrumentis dependent on the doer. It is very beneficialand in perfecting an action. "Sadhakatam karanam" (Paani. Asta. 1/4/42) But the doer is independent "Swatantrakartaa" (Paani. Asta. 1/4/54). Even the Swaroop (self) is not the doer; because ifthere was doership in the self (swaroop) then it would never be wiped out. Therefore Bhagwaan has in the Gita negated the doership in the self (swaroop) - "sharirastopi kaunteya ne karoti ne lipyate." (Gita 13/31). In reality, He whois the enjoyer, that same one is the doer.From "Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye" pg 126-127 and "For Salvation of Mankind"in English pg 130-132 by Swami RamsukhdasjiFor ENGLISH WEBSITE please visit: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.netFor full online discourses in Hindi: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org----------------------GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that theyfurther help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -