Guest guest Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 the answer !!!!!! it is adharma for any one to beat any one and specifically own wife i fail to understand the logic although scrptures may interpret the way it hasbeen answered what happens when wife beats her husband!!!!dpDr. Dinesh Patel, M.D.________________________________ NEW POSTING Dear Sadaks, Often we have been saying, `'Sarvam Vasudevam". But when need comes to practice we fail. We are also bookish, but not practical. Where is the need for showing aggressive words on Sri Maduji that too with capital letters? Maduji for me is also Vasudevam. Sadaks please tell what is meant by "Yogaroodan" referred by Bagavan in Geetha. Maduji is educated well in the discipline of body related matters which I do not know. He is normal human with worldly views. He has to be explained calmly with affection about the supreme knowledge which has covered all disciplines of educations. "Does it befit you that you call some statements by a Saint to be"ridiculous/malpractice"? Who has murdered whom?" said by Sri Vyasji illuminated in him by Bagavan. By our Sadakji post. These lines I can understand. Even if our Swamiji was here to hear this, he would have remained undisturbed. Sri Krishna remained calm when Pounderaka Vasudevan abused Sri Krishna. 108 abusive bad words by Sisubal on Sri Krishna, could not least disturb Sri Krishna. Bagavan does make people to talk in negative manner, to test our patience. Sri Maduji is tool in hands of Bagavan to test our emotions. SRI VYASJI KINDLY BEAR WITH ME, IF THIS HURTS YOU. I WANT YOU TO BECOME LIKE SWAMIJI. There is lot of people reading our message. Can we put them in most understandable common simple language? Most people are yet to know about the laws of Karma. They can be educated slowly and steadily in order they become divine. In recent news it says in Afganistan, that woman are denied food and beaten if they do not satisfy sexual urge of their men. These men cannot be made to understand. These women are placed there by their own Karmas to dissipate and become free from Karmas. This I can know, Sri Pratabji, Sri Vyasji, Sri Mikeji and other scholars who studied Vivekachudamani and certain portions of Geetha. I do not expect Sri Maduji, as he is yet to know the laws and theory of Karmas. If one comes to know this, he becomes pure. Example: In Srimath Bagavath: One who cast eyes on neighbors` s wife, will reach hell with suitable body to satisfy his desire. There a copper doll of life size of the woman, whom this man craved, will be given to embrace. But this copper doll will be heated, as such on embracing; this man gets burns and suffers. Bible says, "Thou shall not cast on your eyes on your neighbor wife". But it did fail to explain why? If one deeply concentrates on this, he will completely avoid seeing other woman. All such matters are there in full text. "If that married man, perhaps with children, had dumped his wife, for you, the situation would have been worse, for everyone, and especially the children. Thank God, nothing like that happened." Said Sri Durgesh Mankikar. Absolutely right in his view. But Sadaks should always refer to Sastras while thinking views. "Do what other like to do to you" is saying in Bible and in our puranas as well as in Geetha. Seeing like that, I feel, "What if my daughter was betrayed by a married man". Then there will be 2 angles of views, 1) My daughter 2) That married man children. But our divine sastras says both the woman and the married man will be punished, IF THEY fail to realize their mistakes and do prayachit. For this there is separate book by sages in Vedas, to do "PRAYACHIT DHRMA" SHIKHANDI was spared by Bhismaji only for the reason, a man cannot raise weapon on woman who is without weapon. DHARMAVAN BHISMAJI. Besides Sri Krishna indirectly upraises Bhismaji the previous day about who this Shikhadhi is. So Bhismaji welcomed death by knowing to wash his Karma. We have to learn from Sri Krishna while HE used to be with HIS wife Sathyabama. She is said to have used anguish language on Sri Krishna. Where as Sri Rukmani Matha was absolutely divine with Sri Krishna. But Bagavan was same to both in behavior, words and in karuniya. HE loved both equally by HIS BEHAVIOURS. (Thereis reason given by Sri Krishna HIMSELF) Bagavan showed us to be in equanimity. All that HE said in Geetha, HE put into practical. Have we put into practice equanimity? To Introgate ourselves is essential JAI SRI KRISHNA b.sathyanarayan ----------------------- Many women stay in abusive relationship. In America, there are social organizations which help women to get out of abusive relationship. Otherwise, they continue in abusive relationship and even blame themselves for abuse.Same pattern is true with child abuse. Child abuse victims blame themselves for abuse inflicted on them.This leads to feeling of guilt, depression and many other emotional disorders. Such people lead miserable life due to emotional issue and many times, they are like living dead person who has no joy or happiness in life.It is not advisable to tolerate husband's abuse. That is true in US where society provide huge amount of support of victims of domestic violence. It is more easier for women to work and live good life without husband.In India, there might be many women who cannot make their livelihood and are dependent on husband. It might still be advisable for them to stay with their husband. If they cannot make money and they get out, they can still be exploited. On the same topic of society taking care of women, in India there is no system to take care of children. If parents die, the children come on streets if they don't have relatives to take care of them. In US, they have foster care system which takes care of kids.Social values change with time, place and circumstance. What we consider wrong in current society can become right after few hundred years.For example, 50 years ago slavery was ethical in US. Now, slavery is unethical. We have to use our own judgment in following our guru or teacher. I focus on Swamiji's teaching on self, paramatma and understanding the Truth. Those teachings are eternal. Teaching's related to social behavior will change with time and may not apply to all societies.Gaurav Mittal ----------------------- Jai Radhe..Radhe Radhe Jai Seete Seete seete.....Radhe Radhe... Sense India -------------------------- An act by itself is not to be categorised as Dharma or Adharma. Gita or other authentic scriptures do not make such categorosation without reference to the context of the Action/ Reaction - under what situation an action is done by a person with what obligations. Beating any one including the self is not considered a desirable activity as such. Beating in self defence or in defence of someone else is in accordance with dharma, provided that there was no other alternative to beating a person who is attacking as a method for such defence when physically attacked, provided that the attack was not instigated to get into a fight and provided you are not a Sanyasi of such a stage where one is not pained by being beaten by somebody. Gita and other Hindu scriptures are authored by wise persons and they would not consider prescribing formulas. And, they did not because what is an act of dharma for person X under situation A may not be an act of dharma for Y or under situation B. What is Dharmic action for a professional warrior in a situation of war may not be Dharmic action for a doctor attending injured soldiers in the battlefiels. What is dharma for a household may not be the dharma for a sanyasin. A judgement is always to be made. Even the same act performed by a person under situation A may be both dharmic and adharmic. For example, beating the wife is adharma both because she is wife and she is possibly weaker: but beating the wife to save the child she is beating to death because of terrible rage is also dharma if that is the only way the child can be saved. One has to make a choice by making a judgement as to what is important at the point of time of action. It also depends on the state of the mind when some one is beating some one else. If one starts beating X simply because the person wants to test his/ her power or because of rage the person or because the person does not like X is adharma. When the mind is cool and not conditioned by rage, anger, hatred, desire or ego, one can find out what action is dharma under each circumstance. Any thing done as a ritual and as a matter of habit is likely to be adharma because such act is not based on judgement. However application of mere judgement does not guarantee that an action based on such judgement is necessary in accordance with dharma. If the ability to make judgement within a paerson is much higher than what one has actually used to arrive at a decision for the action, may make the action adharma. So, practising dharma can not be based on formulas given by some scripture: it all depends on the context of the action, the nature of the actor, the motivation behind the action, etc. Dharma is not so easy as it is generally made out. Basudeb Sen -------------------- Statements like "one should suffer at the hands of a husband, in order to wear out one's prior karma." are irresponsible religious dogma. If your own daughter in such a predicament, what would you do? . No reason to support such repeated beatings. That is then no different than stoning a woman as in the middle-east. We are a civilized nation and we should have civilized answers. The husband needs to see a Psychiatrist, and needs counseling. The wife needs a job, or some other outlet to make money and have her own independence. Society should move forward, not backward. Religious interpretations too should move forward with the times. Durgesh Mankikar,MD PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadaks, Like Indian penal code, there is laws in Sastras. Similarly like concession given to woman, there is concession given to an Athuman to be born as Man. Man beating woman or woman beating man are both forbidden. Man beating woman, the man takes away her past sins of the woman 10 times mor when compared to woman beating man. When a Bhramin commits a mistake the punishment is 10 times more when compared to ordinary man committing same sin because the bhramin knowledgeable and still commits mistake. The hidden fact behind the beating is that the man is paving way to that woman to reach heavens faster. In Prakurthi what we understand is upside down. Tasty masala food is harmful when compared to leafy food which does good to health. Bagavan in Geetha said about the food and its affect on Gunas.B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ Hari Om Madhuji ! You are a doctor , You are an educated person. Does it befit you that you call some statements by a Saint to be "ridiculous/malpractice" ? Who has murdered whom? Where is the Q of condonation? Who has condoned whom? If you get shocks like that how will you cure others suffering from shocks ? Communication skills and manners are taught in Primary Schools in MODERN DAYS also. Are they not? You said " Each person chooses to commit evil…..the other person does not have to take it" ! OK….now tell me what other person can do ? If he can do …who prevents him to do? Where is the recommendation that abuse is good? Where is statement that abuser is good? In the message of Revered Swamiji many alternatives have been given. Did you read them? Are you not aware that whenever adversity comes…it first snatches away all options available to you ? Where is adversity existing if you have escape route? If you are not aware then you must re-visit your understanding and knowledge levels. You get trapped by circumstances , Madam ! It is a law that you must must SUFFER your past karmas. Where will you go? How can you run away ? Will your past karmas spare you? You are talking about " MODERN DAY APPLICATION" ! In modern days such crimes are more than they were in prior days. In modern days …. No body gets helpless…is it? You mean to say that in Modern days the Law of Karma has been won over? No body need to understand spiritual issues now? Everybody has sword in hand? All difficulties of life have been understood and MODERN DAY EDUCATED PEOPLE, have answers for them ? NOTE IT : Education alone does not make you free of abuses . You cant escape your karmas however knowledgeable you may be. What do you think that "getting modern" is the way of getting "pain – free" ? Pains are there in every era…to every Jeeva….to every body ! You tell us the alternatives which you have in the given example ! Now tell us….. what alternatives the lady has …which is not covered? TELL US , I SAY !! TELL US IF SOME BODY HAS CANCER……WHAT WILL HE DO ? WHERE CAN HE RUN AWAY ? REMEMBER: Every adversity has in it a HELPLESSNESS hidden. You are said to be suffering ONLY when you have become HELPLESS. No body suffers if he/she has options not to suffer. One needs to deeply understand human life…its vicissitudes and its operating mechanism, and how Law of Karma operates in human life. Here the Saint was asked a Q….He gave answers …. the parents of the woman could not take her back into their home and when questioner still insisted on what the additional options were? …then He stated…accept the circumstances as they are and turn towards God…… and if you have option to live separately do so and become fearless ! What is wrong with that? What is evil in that? What is murder-like in that? It is important to read something carefully before condemning it. NOW ANSWER !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaskar, In a male dominated society like ours, much has happened for hundreds of years, such as widower should marry but not a widow.So if a wife beats her husband, I will call it...that Indian women have come out of male domination and attained Gender Equality...Gee Waman-------- Jai Shree Krishna A Saint's teachings are based on scriptures and therefore Timeless, and to whom I call to be a DOCTOR OF ALL HUMAN DISEASES.... AADHIS AS WELL AS VYAADHIS...... Having concluded something without properly reading is waves of ignorance and ego.. ! He was ultra modern ! His teachings are much ahead of TIME...... to remain applicable in all eras and times. Timeless Truths !! NOTE FOR EVER: Time never changes the TRUTH. When we cant understand something, it could be our lack of capacity to understand, it could be our ignorance. Law of Action and Reaction ever prevails. How does it operate? When a sorrow is called a sorrow? What is human life? Why it is stated to be "abode of sorrow" ? What is the difference between an animal and a human? Sometimes degrees and titles and egoism that comes with it, obscure sour vision and intelligence, thinking that they have answers to every problem, and if you dont have then some animal called "MODERN" has that. Please kindly answer, based on your modern knowledge, what the lady in question can do ? It is easy to criticise then help provide humble, meaningful compassionate answers. VIDYA DADATI VINAYAM ( Education results in soberness/humbleness ) . Words such as malpractice" or encouraging murders or as if they condone abusers are very strong words. I suggest you first point out as to which statement made by Revered Swamiji justifies the adjectives which you have given. Swami Rupesh Kumar. ------------------ PRIOR POSTING This posting (below) is ridiculous and malpractice, I am a physician-- as a spiritual group you must NOT carelessly quote readings without realizing their modern-day application. Each person chooses to commit evil- the other party does not have to"take it" not to mention the abuse,including sexual that occurs, and child abuse that accompanies these situations. You are condoning murder to occur- women are most often killed not by a stranger, but by their abusers. I am shocked at your lack of responsibility. Madhu Gupta, MD ---------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Madhuji, Kindly point out specific statements in the response by Swamiji that appear to be careless quotes. Swamiji clearly states that if the husband's abuse in not tolerable, she should confront him with it and live separately from him. She should lead a fearless life earn her own livelihood, worshipping God. What aspect of the message is careless ? Kindly respond. Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram ---------- : Shree Hari:Ram Ram3rd August, 2009, Monday, Shravan Shukla Trayodashi, Vikram Samvat 2066,SomvaarQuestion: What should a wife do if her husband beats her and gives her trouble?Answer: The wife should understand this to be the restitution, revenge (badlaa)and debts from previous birth, that are being paid off in this form. Thereforeshe should understand that her sins are being destroyed and that she is becomingpure. When her parents find out about this, they can take her to their ownhouse because they certainly had not given their daughter in marriage to bebeaten up !Question: What should she do if her parents or parent's side cannot take herinto their house?Answer: Then she should bare the fruits of her past karmas (actions). Undersuch circumstances what else can the helpless lady do? She should patiently,perseverently bare the abuse of the husband. By baring this, she will becomefree from sins and further along it is possible that her husband may startliking her. If she is unable to tolerate the husband's abuse, she shouldconfront him with it and live separately from him. She should lead a fearlesslife, earn her own livelihood, worshipping God.A man should never beat a woman. Shikhandi was born only to kill Bhisma. Whenhe came in front of Bhisma, Bhishma could not raise his hands to shoot him. Thereason is that Shikhandi was a female in his previous birth and even in thisbirth, he was born a female and later became a male. Bhisma thereforeconsidered him to be a woman and did not attack him.Unfavorable situations in life arise only due to some sin. During such times ifone engages in devotion and worship of Bhagwaan (God) with fervor andenthusiasm, then the gains will be two-fold. On one hand the sins will bedestroyed and on calling out to Bhagwaan (God), your faith and trust (Bhagwadvishwaas) in Him increases. Therefore when adversities and misfortunes aise,women must not be disheartened and lose their courage.When adversities and misfortunes arise, one must never ever think of commitingsuicide; because a person incurs deadly sin by committing suicide. It is asmuch sin as commiting murder of another. Man thinks that by commiting suicide,his sorrows will come to an end and he will become happy. This is absoluteblunder, because firstly the previous sins did not get destroyed, and inaddition new sins were incurred ! Those who had attempted to commit suicideand were saved from the clutches of death, have shared their experience thatthey had to bare a lot of pain while committing suicide and later deeply regretsaying it would have been better if they had not tried to commit such a crime,but what to do now? Such persons who commit suicide become ghosts and evilspirits and in that form they remain hungry and thirsty and undergo intensesuffering. The point is those who commit suicide meet with grave misfortune andbad circumstances.From "How to Lead a Householder Life" in English pg 68-70 by Swami Ramsukhdasji ================================= GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that theyfurther help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 the answer !!!!!! it is adharma for any one to beat any one and specifically own wife i fail to understand the logic although scrptures may interpret the way it hasbeen answered what happens when wife beats her husband!!!!dpDr. Dinesh Patel, M.D.________________________________ NEW POSTING Hari OmMadhuji ! You are a doctor , You are an educated person. Does it befit you that you call some statements by a Saint to be "ridiculous/malpractice" without even reading properly ? If you get shocks like that how will you cure others suffering from shocks ? Communication skills and manners are taught in Primary Schools in MODERN DAYS also. Are they not? You said - "Each person chooses to commit evil..the other person does not have to take it !" OK now tell me what other person can do ? If somebody fires a shot , what other person can do except trying his best to save himself ? But if he cant, then what? If he can do who prevents him to do? Where is the recommendation that abuse is good? Where is the statement that abuser is good? In the message of Revered Swamiji many alternatives have been given. Did you read them? Are you not aware that whenever adversity comes, it first snatches away all options available to you ? Where is adversity existing if you have escape route? If you are not aware then you must re-visit your understanding and knowledge levels. Look at the world more closely- as you look at a disease when a patient comes to you. You get trapped by circumstances , Madam !It is a law that you must must SUFFER your past karmas. Where will you go? How can you run away ? Will your past karmas spare you? You are talking about "MODERN DAY APPLICATION" ! In modern days such crimes are more than they were in prior days. In modern days …. No body gets helpless…is it? You mean to say that in Modern days the Law of Karma has been won over? No body need to understand spiritual issues now? Everybody has sword in hand ? All difficulties of life have been understood and MODERN DAY EDUCATED PEOPLE , and they have answers for them ? If yes, then give an answer as to what the lady can do in the given example... Other than what is recommended ? NOTE IT : Education alone does not make you free of abuses . Spirituality frees you. You cant escape your karmas however knowledgeable you may be. What do you think that "getting modern" is some way of getting "pain free" ? Pains are there in every era to every Jeeva to every body... At all TIMES ! You tell us the alternatives which you have.. in the given example ! Now tell us….. what alternatives the lady has … and which is not covered ? TELL US IF SOME BODY HAS CANCER - WHAT WILL HE DO ? WHERE CAN HE RUN AWAY ? Tell us what can a person do if he is hit by a negligent car driver? Tell us whether you have never encountered helplessness before the given circumstances? REMEMBER: Every adversity has in it a HELPLESSNESS hidden. You are said to be suffering ONLY when you have become HELPLESS. No body suffers if he/she has options not to. You have not understood human life, its vicissitudes and its operating mechanism. You have not understood how Law of Karma operates in human life. NOW UNDERSTAND THAT ! You are just talking without understanding. But you have reached to this Divine Forum. If you agree we shall remove the dust gathered on your intelligence and knowledge.Here the Saint was asked a Q. He gave answers and when Questioner still insisted - then He stated, Accept the circumstances as they are and turn towards God, and if you have option live separately ! Here there was last option. What is wrong with that? What is evil in that? What is murder-like in that? Where is so called "lack of responsibility" ? Madam ! I am sorry to say that Doctor herself is suffering from the disease of ego, ignorance, and lack of knowledge. Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ----------- narayan narayan This is called tyranny (man suffering due to wife). In these days people are giving less importance to sanskaar (essential sanctification and purification rites) and more to wealth, nasihat (punishment, reprimand, exhortation). This is all the outcome of that alone, nothing else. Give your child proper values / principles and sanctification rites. Wealth will stay within your grasp thereafter. If you ask a question, do so that is pertaining to the Gita Ramchandra IN HINDIesko kahte he atyachar[patni se pidit pati]aaj kal ke jamane me log shanskar ki kam sampati ki jyada nasihat de te hein usika parinam he our kuch nahi.shantan ko aap shanskar do sampati apne aap kadmo me rahegi.sawal pucho to gita se shambdit pucho.[ramchandra]------------------------- In the Netherlands just last wek there was a little scandal with a young Calvinist vicar advating the "pedagogical flick" and explaining that "God has wisely created this soft body part [the buttocks] in children to facilitate their disciplining". Spanking for Christ! And the culture of wife-beating and child-beating in Islam needs no further introduction. By contrast, in the TV programmes of the Dutch Hindu broadcaster OHM, advice against *any* form of violence inside the family is a recurring theme. Experienced parents and psychologists are invited to explain non-violent alternatives that can bring unruly children to their senses. Here at least "religion" in general cannot be blamed for promoting obscurantists modes of conduct. In this repsect at least, the alternative for backward religions need not be irreligion, but may well be Hinduism. Unless you go with Tulsidas and accept that an animal, a servant, a child and a woman are entitled to being whipped. Kind regards, KE (Koenraad Elst) ----------------------- Question: What should a wife do if her husband beats her and gives her trouble? General question can be what should we do when unfavorable circumstance or unhappiness comes. The above is example of one bad situation for women. Similarly, men may also face situations which cause unhappiness. There are many perspectives to look at same situation. That is beauty of sanatan dharma. There is not one way. From absolute perspective, there is no existence of good or bad. Good or bad comes when we associate self from body. Since self is beyond body, whatever happens to body cannot affect the self. So from self's perspective, there is no good or bad in inert matter. Distinction of good or bad comes when self identifies with body There is very nice story of tolerant brahman in Udhava Gita (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.23). He went through so many bad circumstances which I cannot even imagine. People will tie him and put him in a cage and then, they will urinate over him. In all material circumstances, he thought of them as result of sins from past actions. He realized that his self is not body and whatever they are doing to his body does not affect his self. He also understood that other people are acting helplessly under control of three gunas. So, his mind remained steady. It is good to read this chapter 11.23. These teachings are high level instructions. Otherwise, it might be better to get out of these situations instead of staying in them. I forgot to mention. When I read Swamiji's statements, I thought that Swamiji was biased against women. Instead of focussing on such thoughts, I try to ignore them and I will focus on positive. Swamiji himself says that we should take positive things from satsang. I will ignore Swamiji's statements which seemed biased against women. Now, I see them differently. I was misinterpreting them and therefore, not understanding them properly.After reading "It is You and You Alone ! Yes! It is You ! You! You! (Sep 28, 2009)", I see that Swamiji is making same statement to all of us. He is asking men also to do the same when they face unfavorable situations. He is not biased against women. He is answering from a very high level. Same way "It is You and You Alone ! Yes! It is You ! You! You! ", he is expecting men/women to act at a very high spiritual level.Srimad Bhagavatam verse 11.7.31 -- I read this today and this opened my eyes."A sober person, even when harassed by other living beings, should understand that his aggressors are acting helplessly under the control of God, and thus he should never be distracted from progress on his own path. This rule I have learned from the earth."When I read this today, it immediately flashed to me that this is what Swamiji said in his statements related to women.A sadhak should be tolerant to those who harasses him/her and see that they are acting helpless under maya. He/she should maintain his inner equanimity and see that self is untouched by inner matter.Anyways, my misunderstanding is cleared. Gaurav Mittal : Shree Hari: Ram Ram Questioner : You said that reason for happiness and unhappiness is because be accept there is the other...... Swamiji: It is only our behavior, our conduct and our natural tendencies (vritti) which are problematic. Seeing favorable situations as happiness and unfavorable ones as unhappiness is where the issue lies. It is impossible that the world will become according to what is favorable to us. Therefore simply blend in with The Divine Will. Accept The Divine Will as your will (Haa mein haa milaado). In whatever situation / circumstance that comes to you, say YES ! I accept ! Whatever is ordained (vidhaan) by Bhagwaan (God) is nothing but auspicious (mangal mai). If you accept what is ordained by Bhagwaan, there will be no obstacles. In reality, whatever comes is only auspicious (mangal mai). The entire world is nothing but a manifestion of God (Bhagwat swaroop). Besides God there is nothing else. He alone has come in all these different forms. If this is clearly understood, then you will realize "shakshaat" The Absolute Paramatma... Everything is His lila (divine play). It is us who is putting them in separate compartments - separating them as favorable and unfavorable. There is only one point, because Bhagwaan is only One. Accept this with a firm determination. There is only Paramatma. This is the ultimate lesson. Ultimate principle. Ultimate Truth. It is only Bhagwaan. In the form of animals it is Bhagwaan. In the form of birds, it is Bhagwaan.... in subtle body forms it is Bhagwaan, in gross forms it is Bhagwaan.....Bhagwaan has come in various different forms. Be silent and whatever comes to mind is Bhagwaan (God), because in my mind only Bhagwaan will come. It is Bhagwaan (God), It is Bhagwaan. Yes! It is Bhagwaan Yes! Yes It is! and become joyful. Whatever comes, whether it be fever, illness, disease, it is Bhagwaan. If pain comes, it is Bhagwaan. If favorable or unfavorable situation comes, it is only Bhagwaan. Besides Bhagwaan there is nothing else. Bhagwaan comes in many different forms. It is Bhagwaan only. Even in many forms, it is only Bhagwaan, because Bhagwaan takes on so many different forms. Infinite forms. Look at the little sapplings, look at the tiny insects, look at all the different fruits, vegetables, different languages, people, countries etc. So many different forms Bhagwaan takes on. It is all Bhagwaan only. See Bhagwaan and become joyful. Whatever comes to your mind is all Bhagwaan. All of it. All is Bhagwaan (God). Happiness - unhappiness is Bhagwaan. In honor, in dishonor, in complaining, in fame, in defame, in successes, in failures, in all forms there is Bhagwaan. In all spiritual practices Bhagwaan has come. Bhagwaan has come is infinite different forms (anek roop roopaayaa) . "sarva yoni su kaunteya.." Bhagwaan says - I am the seed of all beings. Bhagwaan is infinite. If you start seeing in this manner, you will be greatly benefited. Simply give complete reins / full permission to Bhagwaan. Set Bhagwaan free (chutti de do Bhagwaan ko). Tell Bhagwaan, I will recognize You in any form You come. Whether it be anger, fear, fright, sickness, I will recognize You. Tell Bhagwan that in whatever form You come, it is only YOU, You and You alone. It is only One. In form of food, in form of plate, in form of cup, it is only You in the infinite forms. It is you alone in all these different forms. If you get this, it is such an amazing thing. Best of best and worst of worst situations, is all Bhagwaan and Bhagwaan alone. You and You alone. "Tu Hi Hai, Tu Hi Hai, Jo kuch hai, so tuhin hai.".... "It is You and You alone, Whatever is, it is all only You". It is You ! It is You ! It is You ! Whatever Is, It is all You ! What a Divine play (lila) it is. It is transcendental (alaukik). Only His Divine Play (lila) is happening. Respect, name, fame ... all this is a divine play (lila). You alone have become all. You have become everything and now it is called the world... It is You; It is You; It is You. Prabhu ! Prabhu ! Prabhu ! It is You ! It is You ! It is You! It is You ! ... It is You You You !!! You in all these forms ! It is You Prabhu ! Prabhu ! Prabhu ! ... You You You You .... In all these various forms It is You, It is You... YOU ! Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Siyaavar Raamchandra ki Jai, Mor mukut bansi waale ki Jai ! From Discourse in Hindi on Nov 3, 2001 at 3:00 pm by Swami Ramsukhdasji. Ram Ram ----------- What is ABSOLUTE SANATAN dharma?Absolute dharma is that you are atma and due to illusion, you identify yourself as body. From absolute perspective, there is no suffering or happiness. Suffering and happiness happen to body and they don't happen to atma. Please read Bhagavatam 11th canto Chapter 23. It clearly states that it is your mind which causes suffering. There is no suffering for a person who realizes that self is beyond this body. Krishna says in Gita that you are your own friend and enemy.Vyasji mentioned that the law of karma is eternal law. I don't disagree but Gita goes one step forward. It states that the consciousness matters more than karma itself. Arjuna thought that the killing people was sin (Gita chapter 1). But Krishna states that the action done as an offering to Krishna with equanimity etc does not bind. There is no karma for such individual.From absolute perspective, you have been doing good and bad karma from infinite births. You have suffered much more than this birth and you have enjoyed much more than this birth. Ultimately, this birth will go away. The true seeker of truth should use this opportunity to go beyond the births or karma.>dharma" covers all societies and is correct at all times. That is beauty of Sanatan Dharma ! -- Naarad MaharishiI agree. Just be clear what eternal dharma you are referring to. Don't think of dharma associated with body as eternal as body itself is not eternal.> Any abuse to any human is bad and should not be taken ! -- Naarad MaharishiWhen did I say that abuse should be taken.> It does not basically make any difference whether a social system at place X ( say America) is say A and place Y ( say India) is say B. -- NishaIt makes difference. Condition A --> Husband beats his wife. Wife can leave him but she has no other place to go. She cannot get job as she is not educated. She does not have parent or society support.Such person may be better off still staying with the husband.Condition B --> Husband beats his wife. She can report to government. Government will give her money, free housing etc. She can get job and live better life without her husband.Such person may be better off leaving her husband.Such rules vary situation to situation.Ram Ram.Gaurav Mittal ------------------------ Hari Om Respected Vyas ji ,Many Thanks for your very enlightened answers and taking my questions seriously Yes ! I do believe in God ! I believe in what our shastras say . I believe in Gita . But also I believe that woman have not been given their worth for what they have done for the mankind , by serving their families with utmost care , bringing up their children and now even with growing education , participating equally in earning to run the house , Their responsibilities have doubled but their situations have not changed . What will be the percentage of men like few Sadakas who respect women ? Have you ever visited any mental asylums . They are full of women of 45+ age , ditched or battered by their husbands or children for none of their fault ! We can not say that all women are suffering of their previous birth karmas . The discussion on sufferings end with just one statement -- please go on suffering because if not in this life you have done anything wrong , it may be the previous birth that you are made to suffer .The subject started with -- what about wife beating their husband ? What is the ratio ? Not even 2% ! 98% of women suffer in the hands of their partners brutally .The larger issues are to be dealt with . How should we educate our children , the younger generation to respect their spouses , to co-operate in all spheres of life . Vasundhara . ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Pranaams In 20 years of working on violence and life of women, the cases of wife beating the husband is extremely extremely rare. So it attracts a lot of attention. Since it is rare we do not even have specific examples to work on. We need to follow whatever path opens to bring down violence in life of people.As Mr.Sushil Jain says it is not about who beats whom... As Bhagavadgeetha says each action performed as yajna, with unconditonal love has opened up a lot of possibilities towards violencefree life, even joyful life. Pranaams veena -------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Shri Dineshji, One beating another is not humanity. Whether it is the man getting beaten up or the woman. By beating each other up, both are commiting a mistake. Your question is that if the wife beats the husband, then what do the scriptures say about it? The scriptures are ready to unravel / solve / explain such expositions, if one reflects on them in entirety. If you write complete story then only something further can be elaborated , but your remarks cannot be properly explained with regards to the scriptures. For those who cannot learn / solve by hearing and talking through, for such people judiciary (court of law) can be applied to settle issues. Vineet Sarvottam ---------------------- Hi Dr. Dinesh Patel, Nothing is new in the world. If husband has beaten his wife/spouse before in twenties and thirties, then wife is going to beat his husband in late life and Husband has to watch and tolerate. Actions and reactions are equal and opposite directions. We understand this principle in physical world/science. But it is true in human lives and applicable to human lives. In fact, husband or the wife has no right to beat, if beats, one has to suffer in later life or in the next life. No exceptions to this rule (the natural laws). Jashwant Shah ------------------- Hari OmReplies to queries raised by Vasundharaji ! At the outset, Welcome, Madam to this Forum :Q I don't agree with this answer that '' The wife should understand this to be the restitution, revenge (badlaa) and debts from previous birth, that are being paid off in this form. Therefore she should understand that her sins are being destroyed and that she is becoming pure.''A What is alternative? This statement has been made when the Questioner stated that all other alternatives given have exhausted and are not possible to be implemented. Can anybody claim, Madam, that she/he had an option before taking birth as human of choosing parents, gender, family, country, caste, creed, circumstances, situations, states, incidences, good or bad events which take place in this life? If you ponder coolly, the answer would be .. No ! Nobody wants adversity but can you pin point a single human known to you who has never faced adversity? You are in "human life" ! This is "dukhalayam" on one hand (only sorrows, and nothing else) and "Vasudev" (only God, and nothing else) on the other hand. Do you agree upto now? If any body has option, why will he/she suffer? Sufferings begin only when you dont have options ! Any doubt? (Raise doubts freely, pls). In this statement quoted by you there is a situation where the sufferrer has no options left but to consider it to be her fate and pay off. Now this statement has following ingredients:1 No one causes sufferings to the others. One reaps what one sows. You suffer due to your sins only and due to no body else's sins. (Suffering here means confronted with adverse circumstances- not being sorrowful/happy. To be sorrowful/happy is not caused by fate; it is caused by fresh stupidity)2 When you suffer consequences of your karma, you become pure/debt free. Q After all When is this vicious circle is to end ?A When you have suffered fully the consequences of sins made by you.In other words when adverse circumstances arise before you the old karmas extinguish.Q Will this previous karma and debts of previous birth last till eternity ?A No ! As soon as your debt is repaid in the form of adverse circumstances arising , you become pure. Why should you suffer till eternity? Every good/bad Karma gives good/bad results and thereby extinguishes. God and His Divine Laws are "just and equitable" ! Do you believe in God, Vasundharaji ?Q It has to be seen in modern days applications .A Please elaborate. I am too living in the same time you are living viz modern era. Law of Karma is an eternal Law. Are we not doing any Karmas now? If yes, how "modern" or "old" times are relevant here?In any case please give your valuable suggestions regarding "modern day applications"We are talking about a law operating in human life based on past lives/deeds ! Hence "past" deeds results in "present" ; "present" deeds result in "future" ! How time is of any essence / relevance then ? Results of past only is present, Madam ! Q Since long time women did not have any identity of their own .A Oh No ! What do you say Madam? You mean to say without them this world has been fed, created, nurtured, sustained? They are 1000 times superior to males not from today but from day 1. How can males survive without affection of mothers? From where Saints or Sages have come on this earth? Read Scriptures. They are full of the glories of females. Kindly do not undermine your own gender and fraternity with such harshness ! Do you know one of the respected elders of our Swamiji ( you have quoted His statement only here in your response ) - Sethji Jaidayal Goenka once said (almost one century back ) ... If given an option I will like to take re-birth as a female, in India !! Does not that speak volumes about taking birth as a female ? Cheer up, Madam !Q They have suffered because they did not have any alternatives and to look after their children and husband and home has been their first and last priority .A Now in modern era what has happened? What new alternatives have been invented? What new priorities have been found? Is taking care of home and children not the priority now? What then is priority? How today's world is running without mothers sustaining homes ? Ever went Madam to Children's Schools recently ? Please go and see, how mothers affectionately make children grow, ensure they board school buses safely, cook foods for them with loving and affectionate hands and put that in tiffins , dress and groom their little ones for school and functions; wait for them to come back, prepare them for annual school functions and make them better citizens ! See How they educate them, protect them, nourish them ! Where ever you are living on this planet, go to a near by school and see yourself. Q Their untold stories were burnt in their funeral pyre . A I told this is "dukhalayam" ! This is very character of human life. This is how the world has been designed ! This place is akin to an examination hall. It is a laboratory of mother Nature. Here you are vetted, examined, cleaned, dis-infected,.... put into fire..... straightened out and made pure by affectionate Mother Nature .... so that you may be placed in the loving lap of Father Paramatma !!By the way, those whose stories are told also are burnt on funeral pyres only. Who is not burnt on funeral pyres? Q We can not look back for all the answers in our mythological characters .A Will todays generation not become "mythological characters" tomorrow? If you can not look back , do not !But tell us what you can do, and how that solves the problem ? What is your answer? I will give answer:What is the "real" problem? Problem is "Operation of Law of Karma in Human Life" ! You know what is solution ? Solution is : Not to sin. Not to do bad karmas. Live life in a hygeinic, pious way. Do not harm others. Do not see evil in others. Do your duties without expecting results. Concentrate on your duties, without judging the duties of others ! Correcting one's own self and not looking at others for correction in their selves. That is the "real" solution! Any takers?Yes! If you find some one suffering try to help him/her with mind/speech/body ! Be compassionate ! Be kind ! Do that always. That is your duty ! I am afraid by being what we are, humans, to eradicate sorrows/sufferings from this world, is beyond our capacity. We can only pray, wish well and extend helping hand. That is all we can do! What brooding or fretting or being angry or critical of other humans can solve in this DUKHALAYAM ? Nothing, Madam, Nothing it can solve !!Q This is a very delicate and sensitive issue and has to be dealt with utmost understanding and care . --A That is precisely why Madam I have also spent time in elaborately replying your genuine concerns. Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B -------------------------------- the words serve a purpose ........... they serve the purpose true if they lead you into the' Beyond' .......... into silence that is Unchanging Love if the words lead only to further perpetuation of words for intellectual stimulation and enjoyment ...........ah, what purpose do they serve ............ ..?? "One can obtain plenty of enjoyment by acquiring the manifold objects of senses. Surely, one cannot be happy without renouncing them all .".....................Ashtavakra Geetha XVIII, 2............................. dear friends, make 'freedom from words' as your Goal of Life and living it is this freedom, freedom from the Mind and the Intellect, that Krishna's celestial song is all about ........ be free, be self reliant, allow wisdom and strength to arise in you from within .......... karma, bhakti and gyana, ............the three lead us unto the knowledge of the self when they become your understanding, they become Yog .............. hence , seek to understand the words of the scriptures let them become the authotity for your conduct in Life .................... and abide in Bliss ............ the 'happiness' that Ashtavakra speaks about ................... renunciation is the Way meditation is the Way .................. silencing the Mind's propensities is the Way ....... making your karma, your bhakti, your thirst for knowledge, a Yog ......is the Way ...... all your doubts shall disappear forever, for your question needs an answer from you, within you, not outside.... all answers from without shall satisfy but for a while, the doubt in the self shall rise again in yet another question till you yourself discover the answer from within yourself to the mystery that you are ........... the self you are ......... your nature true ...................... allowing your Mind to merge in your Consciousness is the Way............... meditation is the Way this is what Krishna does say when he sings of abandoning all dharmas, to seek refuge in Him alone ..................ah ! AUM narinder bhandari --------- Dear Sadaks,What Sri Vyasiji said about me, is " On the other hand, you (Myself) always get hurt because of your own stupidity / agyaan , and not because somebody wanted to hurt you." It is absolutely correct. Vasudev in Sri Vyasji gave me insight in me. I have to correct myself in solitude.Sri Vyasji also said, this ("Vasudev Sarvam also does not mean that you should consume poison because "everything - including poison- is God ".) I am yet to understand how Prahalad drank poison given by his father. Probably he thought in poison Vasudev existed. Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan ---------------------- Dear Sadhakas,I do not find any reason whatsoever, if a husband does have a right tobeat his wife , then why a wife does not have a right to beat herhusband?If it is not 'adharma' for a husband beating his wife, then why shouldit be ' adharma' for the wife to beat her husband?Namaskar, rathindra prasad lahiri ------------------------ Hari Om.I am responding to Ms. Audrey Rodrigues's letter about Swamiji's reply on the topic. Without having understood the meaning in his reply, people unnecessarily make ascene of the whole situation, after He has explained it very clearly. The is obviously a sure case of wanting to be a rebel, with no sure purpose. Kalidas V ============================= PRIOR POSTING It is not about who beats whom.......it is about what level of consciousness individuals live with..... At lower levels, the survival mode where people are insecure, worried, fearful, any thing is possible....including beating each other.... So when a man beats his wife or wife beats her husband...it shows off the individuals consciousness level...... If we can change that response will change. Better understanding of principles/wisdom/rules of life takes us to higher levels of consciousness. It increases our happiness level too. A happier person is not worried about his or her survival....at all.... He is very confident, helps others, enjoys everything...good or bad... One's behaviour/response is the direct result of our understanding of live at the time.....Higher the consciousness level, higher the happiness level which results into a great response - a happier response which in turns transforms others/environment around. Sushil Jain ------------------- Namaste!I would respectfully like to address doctors Durgesh Mankikar & Madhu Gupta.It is very easy to understand how physician can react strongly to the sufferingof and abuse of people, they after all have to deal with these damaged souls,and what they have to deal with, I expect is beyond belief.But also look at ones self, to sit down and write a comment without digestingthe whole article of Revered Swami Ramsukhdasji, (he appeared to be bridgingboth ancient and modern),is it not showing the very seed of what one condemns?Before casting of as rubbish, things labeled as 'religious dogma', if you havetime, read Stanislav Grof MD PhD. Very hard for people of science to look beyondthe paradigm of ones profession.Something else, there are people out there, that know the truth of Karma and soon, hard to become like a child again, and really look inwards, as a first stepto looking beyond!My humble respects,Om... Shanti...Mike (K). -------------------- Namaste ! I am surprised at the way some of the people have conducted on this Divine Forum. Here is a Saint who said in reply to a Questioner... 1. Any Abuse is not good . Beating a female is particularly not good 2 One should not take it lying down 3 If parents can take the daughter away , they should take her home 4 If she has option she should live a fearless divine life separately. 5 If no options then she should take as God,s will and tolerate the adversity. What else can he advice ? Which other alternative is open ? Why are we talking regarding social systems? Why are we talking regarding differences between two nations? Why are we talking as to how slavery system has been abolished? Are we that arrogant and naive ? What do you think that a Saint of the class of Swamiji would ask you to become like a cow and take injustice lying down? This very thought and this very interpretation speaks volumes about the total lack of intellect in us. What is thought? That we are capable enough so much that we can never fall into a helpless/optionless state? Learned Sadhaks should answer the basic questions raised before giving speeches on social systems and comparing two nations. Basic Question is : What was wrong in Swamiji's statements and how any other person will answer the Questioner ? This is the Question. If any body talks ill, before doing that he must reply to this query. Saint of the class of Swamiji are rare to incarnate in centuries. What wrong has He stated? What kind of modernity is this? What kind of advanced culture is this? What kind of intellect is this? Audrey Rodrigues ---------------------------- Hari OmVasudev Sathyanarainji ! At the outset let me assure you that I am not at all hurt when you counter questioned me on the practice of Equanimity and Vasudev Sarvam. It is such questioning which makes real Satsanga. You are responsible for inflicting hurt on others only when your "bhavas" also intend that. On the other hand, you always get hurt because of your own stupidity / agyaan , and not because somebody wanted to hurt you. I am also grateful to you for blessing me with your desire with my reference, stated in your post in capital letters.Coming to your observations, reg aggression, I hold the view that - "Jaisa Dev Vaisi Pooja" (As is demi- god , so is worship) is also the part of both "Equanimity" as well as "Vasudev Sarvam". If you want a child to understand something, you must become child first, and then explain.You have to talk with other in the language he/she understands. That is why often we see parents talking with toddlers in broken (totali) language- same language in which the child talks. There is no infringement there of any principles of Equanimity/Vasudev Sarvam ! Only difference between them then remains of "bhava" (inner sentiment/object) ! When a mother slaps the child, she does not become bad, because her bhava is pure ! So is the case with the doctor attending the wounded in the war ( an example given by Sadhak Basudeb Sen) or operating upon a patient to remove gangarenous limb.Your "bhavas" thus are prime propellors not your language or manner of delivery or the presentability. There each individual differs but difference in bhavas causes sins/virtue ! IT IS AT BHAVA (inner sentiment) LEVEL THAT EQUANIMITY CAN BE PRACTICED, NOT AT "OUTER CONDUCT" LEVEL !!Coming to "Jaisa Dev vaisi Pooja" - when Lord Narsing, after killing father of Prahlad, lifted Prahlad affectionately, He "licked" Prahlaad. Here the Lord was in semi animal form with face that of Lion. What does a lion do to his cubs, when happy? Licks ! Jaisa Dev, Vaisi Puja - this principle was taught and was put into practice by Lord Krishna Himself, during Mahabharat War. Hence outer conduct, the language employed, etc differs based on the circumstances by all including God Himself. The "same conduct" to all is done ONLY by Yamraja ( The God of Death) and not by any body else. Gita too employs the word "samadarshinah" (equal vision/ seeing ) and not "samvartinah" ( equal conduct) in BG 5:18 and "samabuddhih" (equal intellect- bhava- inner sentiment ) in BG 6:9 ! Thus your intellect ( bhava) has to be equanimous and not your conduct ( which includes the language you employ, the methodology and manner in which you deal with others, calmness or aggression, capital letters or small letters etc) ! Hence I beg to differ with your drawing a conclusion based ALONE on the presentability, language employed, calmness and aggression - or any presence or absence thereof ! (But Sir I am prepared to correct myself if an error is pointed out by any sadhak. ) The outer conduct etc must be "suitable" and MUST NOT BE "similar" !! Because it is impossible to conduct "similarly" among say the examples referred in BG 5:18 ( Among Jnani Mahatma, Learned and Courteous Brahmin, Chaandaal, Cow, Elephant and Dog) ! You should worship Brahmin not Chaandal. You should drink milk of cow not that of bitch. You should ride on elephant not on dog ! Similarly when you touch lower private parts of body , you should wash your hands, not when you touch eyes or face. These are examples of " conduct" which cannot be similar/equanimous. What can be equanimous is intellect/bhava not the "conduct" !! Vasudev Sarvam also does not mean that you should consume poison because "everything - including poison- is God ". Hence let there be "conduct"(Vyavhaar) based on the suitability, circumstances, nature, the type of person with whom you are dealing, the type of language/manners with which the other is conducting, etc etc but let the "bhava" be always "equanimous"- Sarve Bhavantu Sukhinah- Let Truth Prevail ! That is how "equanimity" is practiced. If my "bhava" is not to hurt others, explain them the truth- the outer conduct there is immaterial. For outer conduct the principle is - JAISA DEV, VAISI PUJA" !! Some Devas may be worshipped by flowers, some like "Kalnemi" by shoes as Hanumanji did !! Did Hanumanji not know that Kalnemi's conduct was also caused by Vasudev only ? Who else was there in Kalnemi except Vasudev ?Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ---- Question : Swamiji , I don't agree with this answer that '' The wife should understand this to be the restitution, revenge (badlaa) and debts from previous birth, that are being paid off in this form. Therefore she should understand that her sins are being destroyed and that she is becoming pure.'' After all When is this vicious circle is to end ? Will this previous karma and debts of previous birth last till eternity ? It has to be seen in modern days applications . Since long time women did not have any identity of their own . They have suffered because they did not have any alternatives and to look after their children and husband and home has been their first and last priority . Their untold stories were burnt in their funeral pyre . We can not look back for all the answers in our mythological characters . This is a very delicate and sensitive issue and has to be dealt with utmost understanding and care . -- VASUNDHARA -------------------- Dear Sadaks, This is just for better understanding. Human are designed bodily in equanimity of flesh, nerves, organs Etc. But some children are born with disability. Why? Is it mistake on scientific creation of science or Bramaji? The answer is there in our sastras very clearly and absolutely scientifically. Examples are many, but I shall quote one only which sadaks may be familiar. A great saint was in meditation at evening 6 pm when his wife forced him to indulge in sex. Script clearly says that she ripped of the robes (Vastra) of her husband and raped him. The result was birth of 2 demons- Iranyakshan & Iranyakasipu. The saint bid farewell to his wife and left to woods. This shows, indulging in sex between 6pm to 6.30 pm, the children born to them will be like demons. The time 6 to 6.30pm is time for prayers. The Shiva boothas will be always circling earth where there is Sun Set. They bless the ones who pray and curse the one who indulges in pleasures of any type or even eating. Now scientific value: The nervous system in all living beings changes to low level, which impacts on sperms produced by men. Doctors in this forum can test this. Blood pressure will very marginally every day if taken at 5 pm and taken between 6 to 6.30 pm which our Sastras (Means absolute scientific findings) say is Pradhosa Kal. The food to take, the way & time to sleep, the gap between each child bearing by woman, the easily available leaves the woman can use to avoid pregnancy Etc To drink water: Use NO stainsteel, use only earthen ware or other metals, use copper vessel with Tulsi to avoid infections, sit on ground with coir or wooden mat and eat food, do NOT drink water with right hand Etc. There is specific quality wood platform where doctors can use patients to test. This wood reveals easily to doctors the nature of disease. Sadaks knows that a wooden platform Sri Krishna used on which if one stands will speak only truth. King Vikramathitya also used. Doctors can test the following: A water in glass and in stainless tumbler if kept for 30 minutes changes it`s property. Sitting on ground while eating, makes one bend to eat. At that time the nervous system around spinal cord gets a yogic therapy (stretch and contract process) will enables the digestive system excellently. The brain is in 2 parts. Right & left hemisphere. The nervous system from mooladhar goes circling around spinal cord and reaches left and right hemispheres of brain. The nervous system at mooladhar has 2 parts left & right. But when they reach brain, the left system reach brain on right side and vice versa. Take contaminated water on 2 glasses. Hold one on right hand and other on left. Hold for 2 minutes and test them. The glass held on right hand will show the contamination of mineral/TDS reduced when compared to the glass held on left hand. So drinking water with right hand makes water better. But while eating, how is it possible? Sastra says, lift glass with left hand to drink, but just support your right hand below left hand while drinking. To see this effect scientifically, doctors can use KERLION camara. Now when body degrades, the soul leaves the body. The whole system works fantastically. 1st cuts off hearing, 2cd cuts off speech, 3rd cuts off senses (To avoid feeling pain of death), 4th cuts off sight and 5th cuts of painlessly the prana (Breathing system). All Pancha Boothas goes back to its origin. (Agini heat in body goes to Agini, water goes to Varuna dev Etc). Then the travel of soul anthim Kal starts. Reaches solar system (Sun) as Athuman said by Bagavan is much more brighter than SUN. From there depending on what one has done (Cause and effect) goes to the destined direction and after the karmic rules (Soft ware) is input to that soul reaches the top layer of this earth known as stratosphere, waits for arriving to a womb which has suitability to accept it is fitted software. Then soul reaches the earth with the software called astronomy, the place of birth, caste, type of parents, man or woman, brain designed to take certain load in education, moods, time of birth and death etc. Details in Kapila Geetha and other scripts. Bible said, NO REBIRTH. It is to be understood as soul has NO rebirth (Not the body) That is why, a woman in certain family has full rights, another woman disregarded, another woman prostitute. All these are body related Karmas which we have to be witnessed but NOT get emotional. Instead learn the cause and effect and behave in this birth. Like Shikhandi fated to be cause of death to Bhisma who did mistake in bringing, Ambal, Ambalika and X (Name forgot) 3 daughters from their kingdom without proper permission. Today life- One put rubbish hectically in temple, ashram, or where people may get infected, gets next birth as garbage cleaner in corporation. A dog travels in car, but another dog No place to sleep. Theory of Karma- refer Jada Bharat story. A woman born in USA enjoys privileges compared to woman in Afghanistan. To certain bad karma born as woman, but for certain good deeds, the place of birth changes. Sadaks just be witness to all these, not involving emotion why and why not. Focus mind on God, do good deeds as much as possible. To get down from car and give alms to a beggar woman with courtesy has lot of puniya when compared to just throwing money at her. All living being treat as Vasudev and see the difference in your mind that gets to set at anandham (Blissful state). Each action counts a lot on our future. Jai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- Jai HanumanA Q has been asked by Dr Mankikar that if say my daughter is placed in similar circumstances, what shall I do? My answer is - I shall bring her home ! Anything wrong there. Now I ask him a question :Where did you find/ read the following statement ?"one should suffer at the hands of a husband, in order to wear out one's prior karma." Is not this a statement drafted by yourself only ? I am asking you a Q , Sir ! Yes! It is a statement drafted/understood/ inferred/interpreted by you and you only ! Hence your allegation that the aforesaid statement that that it is "irresponsible religious dogma" is applicable on you only ! Prove it me else as to why you are not in your own words are indulging into an "irresponsible religious dogma" !! Prove now, please !Sadhaks of this Divine Forum must understand that we are not here to commit sins. Never we should talk ill/condemn/ criticise Saints and Sages. NEVER ! The horrible sins such as murder of cow, foetus etc can be pardoned by Daddy the Great, Jee, but not the sin of inflicting insult/abuse on the Saints and Sages ! BEWARE !!There are many methods of expressing differences of opinion; of seeking clarifications/elucidation ! Sure we are civilised people and need civilised answers- as stated by one of the Doctors ! But can all three Doctors or any one of them tell me as to what kind of Civilisation or Culture or Character or Courtesy or Country difference is this Conduct - of first mis- drafting/ mis-interpreting/mis-inferring/ mis-understanding a statement and then alleging others for the same ( rather so harshly criticising/ abusing / condemning a Saint) and then making veledictory / editorial proprietary comments , and thus trying to derive mileage out of the same as if the entire wisdom is concentrated in one person/ country/ theme/ thought/ social outfit/ lib ? Who has ever taught us to be like this ? What is wrong in at least understanding before expressing? Reading before writing ! Is there no wisdom in that ? Does no primary/secondary or higher school or college or course now a days teach that ? If yes, what is wrong in getting one self admitted again in a Primary School and acquiring basics which we forgot to grasp earlier due to pre- occupations ? Lifting the pen or pushing the buttons of computers without thinking or applying any mind/intellect/common sense .... Just basing on ego or whim or fancy or false sense of superiority or wave .... I dont think this is modern / civilised/ developed /advanced / educated response or reflection ! One should never try to give that thing to others, which one himself/herself does not have !Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala ----------------------------- AUM ah, sathyanarayan jee .....you are so right .....each word is meaningful...but ....... ....... the meaning has to rise from the self ......... ..........bin bujhe, mithya sab bhaye ..................ah ! and what comes to the self that is No Mind, is ................... some day, feelings of tired-ness with questions, answers, and discussions must arise in the self .... the self must feel tired of words, that lead not to Silence of Being the source of words !all that needs be said.....has been said ...... and said yet again.....whether it is the husband, who beats the wife, or, the wife, who reverses the game that Time and Space choose to play......... Nothing now remains to be added to help the self become righteous, and to move unto the Self............. ! ah, What has been said is more than enough by far !the words serve a purpose ........... they serve the purpose true if they lead you into ' Beyond' .......... into silence that is Unchanging Love if the words lead only to further perpetuation of wordsnor intellectual stimulation and enjoyment ...........ah, what purpose do they serve ..............?? nari would not wish for narinder( the self) anything but the Highestanything but the Best ! How could it be otherwise ? BUT all that needs be said has been said, dear narinder ..............it is now for you to choose ........Joy that is Silence , which embraces all its own creativetySilence that takes the self beyond right and wrong ..................... or, the Created word , that misses out on Silence ........ Ah, the beauty of Love ! Love that loves its death more than its Life ....... One leads to the Love that is choiceless and unchanging ...........and the understanding True ....... the other to Love that is words, the pain and joy alternating ...... ah, beloved, once again..... too many words ............ ah self, move into Silence , and Be................ Meditate, meditate, meditate........... till meditation as deed dies.......... and with its death, dies the eclipsing, that prevented the ' happening' of meditation meditation that is your own nature, your own Self ... the Self True !!! and let your own self provide to you the answers you seek from others ...... the answers True.......... that heals all wounds of mind and psyche ........ and help the self to live a Life free from fear, doubt, despair, and the pain of false desire ..... AUM narinder bhandari --- Jai Shree Krishna Sri Sathyanarainji as usual is at his immaculate best - a real Satsangi. From his postings we always find relevant topics for discussion. From his recent posting also the topic of Equanimity has emerged. Let me narrate a story in this regard to Divine Sadhaks of this Divine Forum: In a forest once 4 people got together by coincidence, tired and thirsty. One was- Raajputra- Prince ( Son of the King). Another was Rishi Putra ( Son of a Sage) . Third was an ideal Grihastha ( household) . Fourth was Vyagra ( an outcaste earning his livelyhood in jungle by killing birds). Rishi Putra was a "tapasvi" ( penancer) doing very difficult penances. The Household was a reasonably rich and happy belonging to a good family. They saw a hut of a Sadhu and went there expecting to get some water and shadow there. A sadhu was sitting in the hut. He offered all four something to eat and cool water. They all while leaving bowed and did Pranaam to Sadhu. The sadhu blessed them as follows. First came Raajputra to touch his feet. Sadhu said: Raajputra...Live long ! To Rishiputra he blessed : Die ! To Grihastha he said : Live or Die as you wish ! To Vyagra he blessed: Neither live nor die ! All four got stunned. What kind of Sadhu is he? A person asked , Sir this is "in -equanimity" ! How can you inspite being a Sadhu by so unequal in your behaviour? To one you are saying : Live Long. To other : Die ! This is not Equanimity ! Sadhu smiled and said : Sons ! Equanimity is not judged by outer behaviour. Equanimity is judged by inner bhavas. I wished welfare of all of you. Welfare of all of you is hidden in my blessing. This Raajputra: Because of his prior Karmas he has taken birth in the house of King. He is very happy. But in this life he is not doing good deeds. He hunts animals, he is very egoist and is a bhogi. I know that during this life his prior deeds will keep him happy. But in next life he is going to suffer. Hence I told him : Live Long !! This Rishiputra is born in a poor house and is doing hard "tapasya". He is very hardworking. Now he is not going to become happy in this life, but in next life he is going to reap rich rewards. Hence I blessed him : DIE ! This Gruhustha : In previous life he did good karma so he is born in a rich, ideal family. In this life also he does charities, does good karmas, and hence he is going to be happy in next life also. Hence I blessed: As you wish...either live or die. This Vyagra: He sinned excessively in past lives, and hence in this life he is poor and suffering. Now also he is sinning only , and hence next life is not going to be better either. Hence I said : Neither Live nor Die !! This is real Equanimity ! It is not outer behaviour which determines whether anyone is indulging in Equanimity BUT it is your inner intentions which decide whether one is equanimous or not. Swamiji would often give example of Gita verse 18 of Chapter 5. There Lord says " samdarshinah" ( equal viewing/ equally perceiving) and not "samvartinah" ( equally behaving) ! Hence outer behaviour should be disregarded in deciding whether equanimity is being followed by one or not. Swami Rupesh Kumar------------------------- Narain ! Narain !! Oh What a Divine Bliss it is to be in Satsanga of this high order. This Forum has its own divinity. Why not it should, when it is dedicated to an extra ordinary Saint of the class of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ? Coming to the subject a lot of mails on the subject of marital relationships again and rightly so considering the shape to which these relationships have fallen in the Kaliyuga ( Modern times) !!! First to Sathyanarainji ! You are right, that there should be "calm affection" in conduct. Generally it should be so. But is that the yardstick of Equanimity/ 7:19 ? I am afraid it is not so. I remember once Swamiji defined "stupidity" - A stupid is a person with 2 peculiar characteristics: 1. He himself does not know 2 He does not listen to others. Hearing this fantastic definition , a listener asked: We are surrounded by such people both inside and outside home. If some body does not know and also does not listen to others...how he can be taught and brought to track ? Swamiji smiled and told - " MOORAKH KO SAMJHAANA DORA ( very difficult) ; KOOTANA (beating/punishing) SORA (easy) !! ( To explain the truth to a stupid man is very difficult...he can only be cured by continuous punishment) ! Sadhaks- Please dont start a separate a new topic on this...it is cited here to explain the subtle principle of equanimity ! If your son is not behaving well, you are fully justified in punishing him/ dealing harshly with him. He then cant be cured by sweet/affectionate/ loving words/manners/conduct !! Hence "soft/calm/serene/affectionate" words do not necessarily achieve the goals in all the circumstances . During Mahabharat war when the wheel of Karna was damaged and he was repairing the same., Lord asked Arjuna to kill him. When Karna objected giving plea of "dharma" , Lord stated that you are not entitled to talk about dharma when you yourself transcended/ infringed that !! You need to be killed by adharma only as you always supported adharma only. To kill you is dharma and the manner of killing you is IMMATERIAL. Thus to reply to harsh words with harshness sometimes becomes necessary also and sometimes even the only option. " Bookish" vs "Practice" - the practice of equanimity does not mean that you will conduct with others in "equanimous" manner....it means you shall view others with equanimous mental equipment. How can your conduct be SAME and STANDARD towards all? No ! That is neither Equanimity nor Sarvam Vasudev !! Hence an introspection by you also is equally warranted on the bookish knowledge and on the practice thereof. You must look at object/motto of deliberators rather than on the outer veil/words used by them. There lies really the wisdom ! What do you think that everywhere principles of Gandhiji will be applicable? You are in Kaliyuga, Man !! Did you not notice the caption of this thread? World is changing , and therefore so should change the way in which you "deal/conduct" with it....keeping HOWEVER your inner bhavas to be sober/calm/serene/equanimous- towards welfare of all !! ARE YOU AWARE THAT CRITICISING/ CONDEMNING / TALKING ILL ABOUT THE DEVOTEES OF BHAGWAAN ( Say Revered Swamiji) IS CALLED " BHAGWAT APRAADH" ( Serious sin) in Scriptures and IS NEVER PARDONED BY BHAGWAAN ? Why one must not oppose those who without application of mind , criticise/cast aspersions on Saints and Sages ? Coming to Shri Gaurav Mittal's concluding remarks, let me state that "dharma" covers all societies and is correct at all times. That is beauty of Sanatan Dharma ! The truth does not change with the change of times. The manner of dealing with it may change not the substance ! Opposition to abuse was not acceptable during Satyuga also, during Treta also, during Dwaapar also and during Kali also. Any abuse to any human is bad and should not be taken ! But then who has advocated that it should not be opposed/countered ? At least before commenting and condemning ...one should point out which statement by whom is supporting non opposition to evil ? This is not fair else ! Basudebji has referred about some formulas. Can I know , Sir, which formula is being referred/criticised by you? Who has given what formula , Sir ? Narain ! Narain !! Naarad Maharishi ----- Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! Dr Patel ! Whether a wife beats husband or a husband beats wife...the act of getting physical is universally stated to be a sin ! Neither is there any doubt in it nor is there any suggestion to this respect either in Scriptures or in any statements by Respected Swamiji. If there is an otherwise feeling in any one's mind...it is arising out of own negative/distorted sense organs. In life certain situations arise when you are helpless and one must learn to tolerate them BUT only when you are optionless. That is exactly what was stated by the statement blown out of proportions and in a totally unfair and uncouth manner by some of the respondents. Dear Sri B Sathyanarain ! We all are proud of you and your wisdom and your contributions for benefit of us all. In Satsanga, only one has opportunity of correcting on fundamentals. I read your whole note regarding the need for sadhaks to "practically" implement the principles of equanimity rather than having "bookish" knowledge. You are very right there..no doubt. But what according to you distinguishes between a bookish knowledge and practice thereof? Is it merely the written or spoken words; manner of dealing say calm/ serene/ affectionate/ angry/ harsh/aggressive etc or something other than that ! Difference has to be something more deep than what has come out of your post...much much deep ! I will give you an example. A robber/thief comes into your house. You catch him. Now what will you do? Will you consider him to be "VASUDEV" ? Certainly the thief is a normal human with worldly views. Will you " calmly explain him with affection about the supreme knowledge which has covered all disciplines of education" ? Will you consider that " Bhagwaan does make the thief to indulge in theft in your house" and respecting the wish of Vasudev, will you handover whatever he wants? Will you consider him to be a "tool in the hand of Bagavan to test your emotions"? Definitely, Sathyanarainji, the thief in this example is "yet to know about the Laws of Karma" ! Will you " educate him slowly and steadily so that the thief becomes divine" ? OR You shall hanover him to Police ? OR You will let him go ? What will you do? ( No Individual need to take this example upon himself/herself please. My intention here is to explain a subtle point here. It does not mean that some one is thief or robber. Please! We must learn to be a Satsangi. We must learn the art of learning) The answer to your observations regarding practice of Equanimity in real life is hidden there. Take a better example. You sibling conducts himself in a bad manner or is indulged in inappropriate conduct. Is there anything wrong if you just hang the qualities of affection/love etc for the time being and ruthlessly cure the disease ? Are few tough words not warranted there? Hope this is taken in right spirit. Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! Anirudh -- Radhey ! Radhey !! Gauravji ! It does not basically make any difference whether a social system at place X ( say America) is say A and place Y ( say India) is say B. Truth always remains truth. You are talking about nitti gritties. We are talking about "principles" ! Principle is that a situation when it becomes unbearable for the spouse to bear he/she must live separately if she/he has options. Now if somebody has no options of any nature whatsoever...what advice can be given ? You are talking as if in America there is a total hygeine reg marital relationships. Egos dont clash there. Child/wife/husband abuses dont take place there. Police and social outfits are very strong there. All females are employed there and humanity is living there as if in a heaven. And therefore you can consider that social outfits decide whether X is your duty or not ! Wonderful. Humbly, I differ with you. Be it India or America, heaven or hell- sorrows and pleasures are there everywhere. In hell also the creatures experience pleasures, and in heaven too they experience pains. Because in heaven or hell the entire karmas of Jeeva are not burnt/get squared of. Hence "different social outfits" are not subject matter of deliberations here. Whether you can run away from the clutches of Law of Karma is the issue ? Issue is whether THE MODERN EDUCATED PEOPLE have any magic stick by which they can eliminate sorrows from life. No ! Whether HELPLESS situations in life are not encountered by all of us sometime or other ? Whether it is proper for some one to speak in totally uncivilised language with reference to a statement made by a Saint ? What does education teach us? Why we are trying to deviate from main issue? Radhey ! Radhey !! Nisha Chatterji ---- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadaks, Often we have been saying, `'Sarvam Vasudevam". But when need comes to practice we fail. We are also bookish, but not practical. Where is the need for showing aggressive words on Sri Maduji that too with capital letters? Maduji for me is also Vasudevam. Sadaks please tell what is meant by "Yogaroodan" referred by Bagavan in Geetha. Maduji is educated well in the discipline of body related matters which I do not know. He is normal human with worldly views. He has to be explained calmly with affection about the supreme knowledge which has covered all disciplines of educations. "Does it befit you that you call some statements by a Saint to be"ridiculous/malpractice"? Who has murdered whom?" said by Sri Vyasji illuminated in him by Bagavan. By our Sadakji post. These lines I can understand. Even if our Swamiji was here to hear this, he would have remained undisturbed. Sri Krishna remained calm when Pounderaka Vasudevan abused Sri Krishna. 108 abusive bad words by Sisubal on Sri Krishna, could not least disturb Sri Krishna. Bagavan does make people to talk in negative manner, to test our patience. Sri Maduji is tool in hands of Bagavan to test our emotions. SRI VYASJI KINDLY BEAR WITH ME, IF THIS HURTS YOU. I WANT YOU TO BECOME LIKE SWAMIJI. There is lot of people reading our message. Can we put them in most understandable common simple language? Most people are yet to know about the laws of Karma. They can be educated slowly and steadily in order they become divine. In recent news it says in Afganistan, that woman are denied food and beaten if they do not satisfy sexual urge of their men. These men cannot be made to understand. These women are placed there by their own Karmas to dissipate and become free from Karmas. This I can know, Sri Pratabji, Sri Vyasji, Sri Mikeji and other scholars who studied Vivekachudamani and certain portions of Geetha. I do not expect Sri Maduji, as he is yet to know the laws and theory of Karmas. If one comes to know this, he becomes pure. Example: In Srimath Bagavath: One who cast eyes on neighbors` s wife, will reach hell with suitable body to satisfy his desire. There a copper doll of life size of the woman, whom this man craved, will be given to embrace. But this copper doll will be heated, as such on embracing; this man gets burns and suffers. Bible says, "Thou shall not cast on your eyes on your neighbor wife". But it did fail to explain why? If one deeply concentrates on this, he will completely avoid seeing other woman. All such matters are there in full text. "If that married man, perhaps with children, had dumped his wife, for you, the situation would have been worse, for everyone, and especially the children. Thank God, nothing like that happened." Said Sri Durgesh Mankikar. Absolutely right in his view. But Sadaks should always refer to Sastras while thinking views. "Do what other like to do to you" is saying in Bible and in our puranas as well as in Geetha. Seeing like that, I feel, "What if my daughter was betrayed by a married man". Then there will be 2 angles of views, 1) My daughter 2) That married man children. But our divine sastras says both the woman and the married man will be punished, IF THEY fail to realize their mistakes and do prayachit. For this there is separate book by sages in Vedas, to do "PRAYACHIT DHRMA" SHIKHANDI was spared by Bhismaji only for the reason, a man cannot raise weapon on woman who is without weapon. DHARMAVAN BHISMAJI. Besides Sri Krishna indirectly upraises Bhismaji the previous day about who this Shikhadhi is. So Bhismaji welcomed death by knowing to wash his Karma. We have to learn from Sri Krishna while HE used to be with HIS wife Sathyabama. She is said to have used anguish language on Sri Krishna. Where as Sri Rukmani Matha was absolutely divine with Sri Krishna. But Bagavan was same to both in behavior, words and in karuniya. HE loved both equally by HIS BEHAVIOURS. (Thereis reason given by Sri Krishna HIMSELF) Bagavan showed us to be in equanimity. All that HE said in Geetha, HE put into practical. Have we put into practice equanimity? To Introgate ourselves is essential JAI SRI KRISHNA b.sathyanarayan ----------------------- Many women stay in abusive relationship. In America, there are social organizations which help women to get out of abusive relationship. Otherwise, they continue in abusive relationship and even blame themselves for abuse.Same pattern is true with child abuse. Child abuse victims blame themselves for abuse inflicted on them.This leads to feeling of guilt, depression and many other emotional disorders. Such people lead miserable life due to emotional issue and many times, they are like living dead person who has no joy or happiness in life.It is not advisable to tolerate husband's abuse. That is true in US where society provide huge amount of support of victims of domestic violence. It is more easier for women to work and live good life without husband.In India, there might be many women who cannot make their livelihood and are dependent on husband. It might still be advisable for them to stay with their husband. If they cannot make money and they get out, they can still be exploited. On the same topic of society taking care of women, in India there is no system to take care of children. If parents die, the children come on streets if they don't have relatives to take care of them. In US, they have foster care system which takes care of kids.Social values change with time, place and circumstance. What we consider wrong in current society can become right after few hundred years.For example, 50 years ago slavery was ethical in US. Now, slavery is unethical. We have to use our own judgment in following our guru or teacher. I focus on Swamiji's teaching on self, paramatma and understanding the Truth. Those teachings are eternal. Teaching's related to social behavior will change with time and may not apply to all societies.Gaurav Mittal ----------------------- Jai Radhe..Radhe Radhe Jai Seete Seete seete.....Radhe Radhe... Sense India -------------------------- An act by itself is not to be categorised as Dharma or Adharma. Gita or other authentic scriptures do not make such categorosation without reference to the context of the Action/ Reaction - under what situation an action is done by a person with what obligations. Beating any one including the self is not considered a desirable activity as such. Beating in self defence or in defence of someone else is in accordance with dharma, provided that there was no other alternative to beating a person who is attacking as a method for such defence when physically attacked, provided that the attack was not instigated to get into a fight and provided you are not a Sanyasi of such a stage where one is not pained by being beaten by somebody. Gita and other Hindu scriptures are authored by wise persons and they would not consider prescribing formulas. And, they did not because what is an act of dharma for person X under situation A may not be an act of dharma for Y or under situation B. What is Dharmic action for a professional warrior in a situation of war may not be Dharmic action for a doctor attending injured soldiers in the battlefiels. What is dharma for a household may not be the dharma for a sanyasin. A judgement is always to be made. Even the same act performed by a person under situation A may be both dharmic and adharmic. For example, beating the wife is adharma both because she is wife and she is possibly weaker: but beating the wife to save the child she is beating to death because of terrible rage is also dharma if that is the only way the child can be saved. One has to make a choice by making a judgement as to what is important at the point of time of action. It also depends on the state of the mind when some one is beating some one else. If one starts beating X simply because the person wants to test his/ her power or because of rage the person or because the person does not like X is adharma. When the mind is cool and not conditioned by rage, anger, hatred, desire or ego, one can find out what action is dharma under each circumstance. Any thing done as a ritual and as a matter of habit is likely to be adharma because such act is not based on judgement. However application of mere judgement does not guarantee that an action based on such judgement is necessary in accordance with dharma. If the ability to make judgement within a paerson is much higher than what one has actually used to arrive at a decision for the action, may make the action adharma. So, practising dharma can not be based on formulas given by some scripture: it all depends on the context of the action, the nature of the actor, the motivation behind the action, etc. Dharma is not so easy as it is generally made out. Basudeb Sen -------------------- Statements like "one should suffer at the hands of a husband, in order to wear out one's prior karma." are irresponsible religious dogma. If your own daughter in such a predicament, what would you do? . No reason to support such repeated beatings. That is then no different than stoning a woman as in the middle-east. We are a civilized nation and we should have civilized answers. The husband needs to see a Psychiatrist, and needs counseling. The wife needs a job, or some other outlet to make money and have her own independence. Society should move forward, not backward. Religious interpretations too should move forward with the times. Durgesh Mankikar,MD PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadaks, Like Indian penal code, there is laws in Sastras. Similarly like concession given to woman, there is concession given to an Athuman to be born as Man. Man beating woman or woman beating man are both forbidden. Man beating woman, the man takes away her past sins of the woman 10 times mor when compared to woman beating man. When a Bhramin commits a mistake the punishment is 10 times more when compared to ordinary man committing same sin because the bhramin knowledgeable and still commits mistake. The hidden fact behind the beating is that the man is paving way to that woman to reach heavens faster. In Prakurthi what we understand is upside down. Tasty masala food is harmful when compared to leafy food which does good to health. Bagavan in Geetha said about the food and its affect on Gunas.B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ Hari Om Madhuji ! You are a doctor , You are an educated person. Does it befit you that you call some statements by a Saint to be "ridiculous/malpractice" ? Who has murdered whom? Where is the Q of condonation? Who has condoned whom? If you get shocks like that how will you cure others suffering from shocks ? Communication skills and manners are taught in Primary Schools in MODERN DAYS also. Are they not? You said " Each person chooses to commit evil…..the other person does not have to take it" ! OK….now tell me what other person can do ? If he can do …who prevents him to do? Where is the recommendation that abuse is good? Where is statement that abuser is good? In the message of Revered Swamiji many alternatives have been given. Did you read them? Are you not aware that whenever adversity comes…it first snatches away all options available to you ? Where is adversity existing if you have escape route? If you are not aware then you must re-visit your understanding and knowledge levels. You get trapped by circumstances , Madam ! It is a law that you must must SUFFER your past karmas. Where will you go? How can you run away ? Will your past karmas spare you? You are talking about " MODERN DAY APPLICATION" ! In modern days such crimes are more than they were in prior days. In modern days …. No body gets helpless…is it? You mean to say that in Modern days the Law of Karma has been won over? No body need to understand spiritual issues now? Everybody has sword in hand? All difficulties of life have been understood and MODERN DAY EDUCATED PEOPLE, have answers for them ? NOTE IT : Education alone does not make you free of abuses . You cant escape your karmas however knowledgeable you may be. What do you think that "getting modern" is the way of getting "pain – free" ? Pains are there in every era…to every Jeeva….to every body ! You tell us the alternatives which you have in the given example ! Now tell us….. what alternatives the lady has …which is not covered? TELL US , I SAY !! TELL US IF SOME BODY HAS CANCER……WHAT WILL HE DO ? WHERE CAN HE RUN AWAY ? REMEMBER: Every adversity has in it a HELPLESSNESS hidden. You are said to be suffering ONLY when you have become HELPLESS. No body suffers if he/she has options not to suffer. One needs to deeply understand human life…its vicissitudes and its operating mechanism, and how Law of Karma operates in human life. Here the Saint was asked a Q….He gave answers …. the parents of the woman could not take her back into their home and when questioner still insisted on what the additional options were? …then He stated…accept the circumstances as they are and turn towards God…… and if you have option to live separately do so and become fearless ! What is wrong with that? What is evil in that? What is murder-like in that? It is important to read something carefully before condemning it. NOW ANSWER !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaskar,In a male dominated society like ours, much has happened for hundreds of years, such as widower should marry but not a widow.So if a wife beats her husband, I will call it...that Indian women have come out of male domination and attained GenderEquality...Gee Waman-------- Jai Shree Krishna A Saint's teachings are based on scriptures and therefore Timeless, and to whom I call to be a DOCTOR OF ALL HUMAN DISEASES.... AADHIS AS WELL AS VYAADHIS...... Having concluded something without properly reading is waves of ignorance and ego.. ! He was ultra modern ! His teachings are much ahead of TIME...... to remain applicable in all eras and times. Timeless Truths !! NOTE FOR EVER: Time never changes the TRUTH. When we cant understand something, it could be our lack of capacity to understand, it could be our ignorance. Law of Action and Reaction ever prevails. How does it operate? When a sorrow is called a sorrow? What is human life? Why it is stated to be "abode of sorrow" ? What is the difference between an animal and a human? Sometimes degrees and titles and egoism that comes with it, obscure sour vision and intelligence, thinking that they have answers to every problem, and if you dont have then some animal called "MODERN" has that. Please kindly answer, based on your modern knowledge, what the lady in question can do ? It is easy to criticise then help provide humble, meaningful compassionate answers. VIDYA DADATI VINAYAM ( Education results in soberness/humbleness ) . Words such as malpractice" or encouraging murders or as if they condone abusers are very strong words. I suggest you first point out as to which statement made by Revered Swamiji justifies the adjectives which you have given. Swami Rupesh Kumar. ------------------ PRIOR POSTING This posting (below) is ridiculous and malpractice, I am a physician-- as a spiritual group you must NOT carelessly quote readings without realizing their modern-day application. Each person chooses to commit evil- the other party does not have to"take it" not to mention the abuse,including sexual that occurs, and child abuse that accompanies these situations. You are condoning murder to occur- women are most often killed not by a stranger, but by their abusers. I am shocked at your lack of responsibility. Madhu Gupta, MD ---------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Madhuji, Kindly point out specific statements in the response by Swamiji that appear to be careless quotes. Swamiji clearly states that if the husband's abuse in not tolerable, she should confront him with it and live separately from him. She should lead a fearless life earn her own livelihood, worshipping God. What aspect of the message is careless ? Kindly respond. Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram ---------- : Shree Hari:Ram Ram3rd August, 2009, Monday, Shravan Shukla Trayodashi, Vikram Samvat 2066,SomvaarQuestion: What should a wife do if her husband beats her and gives her trouble?Answer: The wife should understand this to be the restitution, revenge (badlaa)and debts from previous birth, that are being paid off in this form. Thereforeshe should understand that her sins are being destroyed and that she is becomingpure. When her parents find out about this, they can take her to their ownhouse because they certainly had not given their daughter in marriage to bebeaten up !Question: What should she do if her parents or parent's side cannot take herinto their house?Answer: Then she should bare the fruits of her past karmas (actions). Undersuch circumstances what else can the helpless lady do? She should patiently,perseverently bare the abuse of the husband. By baring this, she will becomefree from sins and further along it is possible that her husband may startliking her. If she is unable to tolerate the husband's abuse, she shouldconfront him with it and live separately from him. She should lead a fearlesslife, earn her own livelihood, worshipping God.A man should never beat a woman. Shikhandi was born only to kill Bhisma. Whenhe came in front of Bhisma, Bhishma could not raise his hands to shoot him. Thereason is that Shikhandi was a female in his previous birth and even in thisbirth, he was born a female and later became a male. Bhisma thereforeconsidered him to be a woman and did not attack him.Unfavorable situations in life arise only due to some sin. During such times ifone engages in devotion and worship of Bhagwaan (God) with fervor andenthusiasm, then the gains will be two-fold. On one hand the sins will bedestroyed and on calling out to Bhagwaan (God), your faith and trust (Bhagwadvishwaas) in Him increases. Therefore when adversities and misfortunes aise,women must not be disheartened and lose their courage.When adversities and misfortunes arise, one must never ever think of commitingsuicide; because a person incurs deadly sin by committing suicide. It is asmuch sin as commiting murder of another. Man thinks that by commiting suicide,his sorrows will come to an end and he will become happy. This is absoluteblunder, because firstly the previous sins did not get destroyed, and inaddition new sins were incurred ! Those who had attempted to commit suicideand were saved from the clutches of death, have shared their experience thatthey had to bare a lot of pain while committing suicide and later deeply regretsaying it would have been better if they had not tried to commit such a crime,but what to do now? Such persons who commit suicide become ghosts and evilspirits and in that form they remain hungry and thirsty and undergo intensesuffering. The point is those who commit suicide meet with grave misfortune andbad circumstances.From "How to Lead a Householder Life" in English pg 68-70 by Swami Ramsukhdasji ================================= GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that theyfurther help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 the answer !!!!!! it is adharma for any one to beat any one and specifically own wife i fail to understand the logic although scrptures may interpret the way it hasbeen answered what happens when wife beats her husband!!!!dpDr. Dinesh Patel, M.D.________________________________ NEW POSTING Hari OmVasundharaji ! Answers to Queries raised by you: Q But also I believe that woman have not been given their worth for what they have done for the mankind , by serving their families with utmost care , bringing up their children and now even with growing education , participating equally in earning to run the house , A Who is to give worth to whom? Why there is dependence upon 'some other' to 'give worth' ? Does a diamond or the Sun expect some one to pay attention to its value? Do you need some torch or light to see something burning ? Where is need for a certificate ? Greatness or glory is not dependent upon someone's acceptance or rejection or certification or recognition. The Q of 'mankind' has evolved out of females only ! Can a child survive without mom ? The creation is always smaller than the Creator. Males have no qualification or capability to judge greatness of females. How can a primary school student certify or judge a Ph. D. Project ? Females are more powerful, and capable than males on any day and on any count- since time immemorial. Males can never match even the shade of the female power, glory, capacity, traits, virtues !! They can not be even equal, where is the question of being higher?A day to day life experience ! A lady , if she loses her husband, still single handedly can take care of entire home and children but a male, if he loses his wife, can not even manage his own wardrobe what to talk of home and children ! Who is more capable ? Who is more powerful ? Q Their responsibilities have doubled but their situations have not changed . What will be the percentage of men like few Sadakas who respect women ?Ans: Why did they take 'additional responsibilities' ? They so desired and now the same thing is a subject matter of complaint. They believed that by "learning to earn money" they will become equal to males ( not knowing that seeking equality with males is stupidity as they are better than males always- this is called 'mirage' ) The responsibilities of a male and female are different and supplementary ( but not similar) with reference to a home. Why an intrusion into the other one's sphere was attempted? To insist ?Who can change the situation? How a Jeeva's situation can be changed by any other except by Jeeva itself ? You have to help yourself only. Respect whenever desired begins and ends with disrespect only- it is a law. The greatness of Females is not and should not be dependent upon acknowledgement or otherwise by males ! A female is complete in herself. As independent in living human life as are males. Divine Laws especially ensure survival of females and feminine power at all times. They are preservers and feeders to entire humanity. Q Have you ever visited any mental asylums . They are full of women of 45+ age , ditched or battered by their husbands or children for none of their fault !A But Madam you yourself admitted that you believe in God and His Divine Laws. I asked you this specifically. Now tell me- Is God (or laws made by Him) so cruel, unjust and in-equanimous that He will punish a child of His own "for none of their fault" ?I will go a step further. God is such a kind Father that He will not let His children suffer inspite of His children even spitting on His face or breaking His temples or hurling abuses at Him or not even accepting Him to be their Father !! But, what can He do , if children suffer due to their own stupidities or foolishness ? A little child cries even when it is in the lap of its mother ! You ask the child: Why are you crying? If you cry in the very arms of your mother,where will you laugh ? Can there be a safer place than the lap of one's own mother ? Why does the child cry ? Stupidity ! What else ? Q We can not say that all women are suffering of their previous birth karmas .Ans: What else can be the cause ? By the way, no one/body and no circumstance/situation etc in this universe is capable of making any one happy or sorrowful- it is a law ! A law without any exceptions !Saints have said:Sukh Dukh Na Kopi daata ! Paro dadati kubuddhih resha!!There is no giver of happiness/sorrow to you. This very thought that- 'other is giving' (happiness or sorrow) is representative of a bad/reverse/ ignorant/wrong/spoilt intellect !! Q The discussion on sufferings end with just one statement -- please go on suffering because if not in this life you have done anything wrong , it may be the previous birth that you are made to suffer .Ans. Who made such statement ? Where is the need to 'go on sufferring' ? Have you not seen all suffering irrespective of gender, caste, creed, color, country ? "Naanak Dukhia Sab Sansaar" (O Nanak, entire world is sorrowful only) ! Why single out a particular gender?And above all - Where is the very co-relation between 'suffering (sorrow)' and 'previous birth karmas' ? Sorrows are output of foolishness of the Jeeva ( Jeeva strangely desires happiness when he is sorrowful- always desires what is not! In winters he desires to remain warm ; in summers he wants cold water- typical fellow ) and not the output of circumstances /situations / incidences/status etc generated by operation of Law of Karma . Q They arise because of The subject started with -- what about wife beating their husband ? What is the ratio ? Not even 2% ! 98% of women suffer in the hands of their partners brutally .Ans We have addressed the very sorrow at root level ! The aforesaid one is merely a petty example of sorrow. There are as many sorrows in the life as are hairs on a body. No one is spared from sorrows. Neither males nor females. No Jeeva ! No Body !! No creature ! No God if He incarnates as human ! Not even Father of Lord Rama or Mother of Lord Krishna! If you are human , sorrow is imminent. What is so important about it? Why a student should complain that in examination hall the question paper was tough? We are living in 'Dukhalayam' ( abode of sorrow) , Madam. What can we find here except "dukh". (sorrow) if we 'desire happiness (sukha) ' ? Just as : In a "Bhojanalay". (Restaurant) there is only food or in "Pustakalaya" (library) there are only books or in "Vastralay" (textile shop) there are only cloths ... Similarly: In 'Dukhalayam' there is only sorrow and nothing else !!Q The larger issues are to be dealt with . How should we educate our children , the younger generation to respect their spouses , to co-operate in all spheres of life .A I agree with you ! We must selflessly help others; wipe their tears; dedicate ourselves but as our 'duty' ( What we CAN do and what we SHOULD do is 'duty' ) !By the way Vasundharaji, where is sorrow once you renounce the 'desire for happiness' ? Stupidity does not let a human do this 'renunciation'. (tyaag) !! So long as you do not do this 'tyaag' - sorrow is guaranteed ! What males or females have got to do with it. In 'Dukhalayam' !! It is a law- The single and the only cause of 'sorrow' is 'desire for happiness' !! 'Desire' only produces sorrow. Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B --------- Hello to All!I want to make a small comment on KE'S mail; Unless you go with Tulsidas and accept that an animal, a servant, a child and a woman are entitled to being whipped.Kind regards,KE (Koenraad Elst)..........................I think he is referring to the line:Dhol, Ganwar, Shudra, Pashu, Nari; Sakal Tadna ke Adhikari. Dhol = Percussion instrumentGanwar = RusticKshudra = a person with limited intellectual capacityPashu = AnimalNari = Woman Sakal = All of them (listed above)Tadna = Tad-lena = Probe for motives and/or utility.ke Adhikary = entitled/ worthy of.....................................................................remove the word servant by 'Rustic' and child by 'a person with limited intellectual capacity' and the word 'whipped' should be replaced by 'Probed'.If you do this then remove the word 'Unless' also and replace by 'And'..............................Regards to allArvind Kaushik ------------------------- In the USA there are shelters to protect women and children from spousalassaults.Frankly I think that no one should put their hands on anotherperson.There are ways to deal with anger.We have anger management classes.If awife beats her husband I guess the husband could go to the shelter.There areplaces here to protect the victims.We also have orders of protection.Theseorders keep the attackers away from the victims.They give them a range.If theygo to close they get arrested.Here in New York we read about cases like thiseveryday.Once again anger management courses would benefit everyone involved.Lynn PRIOR POSTING Hari OmMadhuji ! You are a doctor , You are an educated person. Does it befit you that you call some statements by a Saint to be "ridiculous/malpractice" without even reading properly ? If you get shocks like that how will you cure others suffering from shocks ? Communication skills and manners are taught in Primary Schools in MODERN DAYS also. Are they not? You said - "Each person chooses to commit evil..the other person does not have to take it !" OK now tell me what other person can do ? If somebody fires a shot , what other person can do except trying his best to save himself ? But if he cant, then what? If he can do who prevents him to do? Where is the recommendation that abuse is good? Where is the statement that abuser is good? In the message of Revered Swamiji many alternatives have been given. Did you read them? Are you not aware that whenever adversity comes, it first snatches away all options available to you ? Where is adversity existing if you have escape route? If you are not aware then you must re-visit your understanding and knowledge levels. Look at the world more closely- as you look at a disease when a patient comes to you. You get trapped by circumstances , Madam !It is a law that you must must SUFFER your past karmas. Where will you go? How can you run away ? Will your past karmas spare you? You are talking about "MODERN DAY APPLICATION" ! In modern days such crimes are more than they were in prior days. In modern days …. No body gets helpless…is it? You mean to say that in Modern days the Law of Karma has been won over? No body need to understand spiritual issues now? Everybody has sword in hand ? All difficulties of life have been understood and MODERN DAY EDUCATED PEOPLE , and they have answers for them ? If yes, then give an answer as to what the lady can do in the given example... Other than what is recommended ? NOTE IT : Education alone does not make you free of abuses . Spirituality frees you. You cant escape your karmas however knowledgeable you may be. What do you think that "getting modern" is some way of getting "pain free" ? Pains are there in every era to every Jeeva to every body... At all TIMES ! You tell us the alternatives which you have.. in the given example ! Now tell us….. what alternatives the lady has … and which is not covered ? TELL US IF SOME BODY HAS CANCER - WHAT WILL HE DO ? WHERE CAN HE RUN AWAY ? Tell us what can a person do if he is hit by a negligent car driver? Tell us whether you have never encountered helplessness before the given circumstances? REMEMBER: Every adversity has in it a HELPLESSNESS hidden. You are said to be suffering ONLY when you have become HELPLESS. No body suffers if he/she has options not to. You have not understood human life, its vicissitudes and its operating mechanism. You have not understood how Law of Karma operates in human life. NOW UNDERSTAND THAT ! You are just talking without understanding. But you have reached to this Divine Forum. If you agree we shall remove the dust gathered on your intelligence and knowledge.Here the Saint was asked a Q. He gave answers and when Questioner still insisted - then He stated, Accept the circumstances as they are and turn towards God, and if you have option live separately ! Here there was last option. What is wrong with that? What is evil in that? What is murder-like in that? Where is so called "lack of responsibility" ? Madam ! I am sorry to say that Doctor herself is suffering from the disease of ego, ignorance, and lack of knowledge. Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ----------- narayan narayan This is called tyranny (man suffering due to wife). In these days people are giving less importance to sanskaar (essential sanctification and purification rites) and more to wealth, nasihat (punishment, reprimand, exhortation). This is all the outcome of that alone, nothing else. Give your child proper values / principles and sanctification rites. Wealth will stay within your grasp thereafter. If you ask a question, do so that is pertaining to the Gita Ramchandra IN HINDIesko kahte he atyachar[patni se pidit pati]aaj kal ke jamane me log shanskar ki kam sampati ki jyada nasihat de te hein usika parinam he our kuch nahi.shantan ko aap shanskar do sampati apne aap kadmo me rahegi.sawal pucho to gita se shambdit pucho.[ramchandra]------------------------- In the Netherlands just last wek there was a little scandal with a young Calvinist vicar advating the "pedagogical flick" and explaining that "God has wisely created this soft body part [the buttocks] in children to facilitate their disciplining". Spanking for Christ! And the culture of wife-beating and child-beating in Islam needs no further introduction. By contrast, in the TV programmes of the Dutch Hindu broadcaster OHM, advice against *any* form of violence inside the family is a recurring theme. Experienced parents and psychologists are invited to explain non-violent alternatives that can bring unruly children to their senses. Here at least "religion" in general cannot be blamed for promoting obscurantists modes of conduct. In this repsect at least, the alternative for backward religions need not be irreligion, but may well be Hinduism. Unless you go with Tulsidas and accept that an animal, a servant, a child and a woman are entitled to being whipped. Kind regards, KE (Koenraad Elst) ----------------------- Question: What should a wife do if her husband beats her and gives her trouble? General question can be what should we do when unfavorable circumstance or unhappiness comes. The above is example of one bad situation for women. Similarly, men may also face situations which cause unhappiness. There are many perspectives to look at same situation. That is beauty of sanatan dharma. There is not one way. From absolute perspective, there is no existence of good or bad. Good or bad comes when we associate self from body. Since self is beyond body, whatever happens to body cannot affect the self. So from self's perspective, there is no good or bad in inert matter. Distinction of good or bad comes when self identifies with body There is very nice story of tolerant brahman in Udhava Gita (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.23). He went through so many bad circumstances which I cannot even imagine. People will tie him and put him in a cage and then, they will urinate over him. In all material circumstances, he thought of them as result of sins from past actions. He realized that his self is not body and whatever they are doing to his body does not affect his self. He also understood that other people are acting helplessly under control of three gunas. So, his mind remained steady. It is good to read this chapter 11.23. These teachings are high level instructions. Otherwise, it might be better to get out of these situations instead of staying in them. I forgot to mention. When I read Swamiji's statements, I thought that Swamiji was biased against women. Instead of focussing on such thoughts, I try to ignore them and I will focus on positive. Swamiji himself says that we should take positive things from satsang. I will ignore Swamiji's statements which seemed biased against women. Now, I see them differently. I was misinterpreting them and therefore, not understanding them properly.After reading "It is You and You Alone ! Yes! It is You ! You! You! (Sep 28, 2009)", I see that Swamiji is making same statement to all of us. He is asking men also to do the same when they face unfavorable situations. He is not biased against women. He is answering from a very high level. Same way "It is You and You Alone ! Yes! It is You ! You! You! ", he is expecting men/women to act at a very high spiritual level.Srimad Bhagavatam verse 11.7.31 -- I read this today and this opened my eyes."A sober person, even when harassed by other living beings, should understand that his aggressors are acting helplessly under the control of God, and thus he should never be distracted from progress on his own path. This rule I have learned from the earth."When I read this today, it immediately flashed to me that this is what Swamiji said in his statements related to women.A sadhak should be tolerant to those who harasses him/her and see that they are acting helpless under maya. He/she should maintain his inner equanimity and see that self is untouched by inner matter.Anyways, my misunderstanding is cleared. Gaurav Mittal : Shree Hari: Ram Ram Questioner : You said that reason for happiness and unhappiness is because be accept there is the other...... Swamiji: It is only our behavior, our conduct and our natural tendencies (vritti) which are problematic. Seeing favorable situations as happiness and unfavorable ones as unhappiness is where the issue lies. It is impossible that the world will become according to what is favorable to us. Therefore simply blend in with The Divine Will. Accept The Divine Will as your will (Haa mein haa milaado). In whatever situation / circumstance that comes to you, say YES ! I accept ! Whatever is ordained (vidhaan) by Bhagwaan (God) is nothing but auspicious (mangal mai). If you accept what is ordained by Bhagwaan, there will be no obstacles. In reality, whatever comes is only auspicious (mangal mai). The entire world is nothing but a manifestion of God (Bhagwat swaroop). Besides God there is nothing else. He alone has come in all these different forms. If this is clearly understood, then you will realize "shakshaat" The Absolute Paramatma... Everything is His lila (divine play). It is us who is putting them in separate compartments - separating them as favorable and unfavorable. There is only one point, because Bhagwaan is only One. Accept this with a firm determination. There is only Paramatma. This is the ultimate lesson. Ultimate principle. Ultimate Truth. It is only Bhagwaan. In the form of animals it is Bhagwaan. In the form of birds, it is Bhagwaan.... in subtle body forms it is Bhagwaan, in gross forms it is Bhagwaan.....Bhagwaan has come in various different forms. Be silent and whatever comes to mind is Bhagwaan (God), because in my mind only Bhagwaan will come. It is Bhagwaan (God), It is Bhagwaan. Yes! It is Bhagwaan Yes! Yes It is! and become joyful. Whatever comes, whether it be fever, illness, disease, it is Bhagwaan. If pain comes, it is Bhagwaan. If favorable or unfavorable situation comes, it is only Bhagwaan. Besides Bhagwaan there is nothing else. Bhagwaan comes in many different forms. It is Bhagwaan only. Even in many forms, it is only Bhagwaan, because Bhagwaan takes on so many different forms. Infinite forms. Look at the little sapplings, look at the tiny insects, look at all the different fruits, vegetables, different languages, people, countries etc. So many different forms Bhagwaan takes on. It is all Bhagwaan only. See Bhagwaan and become joyful. Whatever comes to your mind is all Bhagwaan. All of it. All is Bhagwaan (God). Happiness - unhappiness is Bhagwaan. In honor, in dishonor, in complaining, in fame, in defame, in successes, in failures, in all forms there is Bhagwaan. In all spiritual practices Bhagwaan has come. Bhagwaan has come is infinite different forms (anek roop roopaayaa) . "sarva yoni su kaunteya.." Bhagwaan says - I am the seed of all beings. Bhagwaan is infinite. If you start seeing in this manner, you will be greatly benefited. Simply give complete reins / full permission to Bhagwaan. Set Bhagwaan free (chutti de do Bhagwaan ko). Tell Bhagwaan, I will recognize You in any form You come. Whether it be anger, fear, fright, sickness, I will recognize You. Tell Bhagwan that in whatever form You come, it is only YOU, You and You alone. It is only One. In form of food, in form of plate, in form of cup, it is only You in the infinite forms. It is you alone in all these different forms. If you get this, it is such an amazing thing. Best of best and worst of worst situations, is all Bhagwaan and Bhagwaan alone. You and You alone. "Tu Hi Hai, Tu Hi Hai, Jo kuch hai, so tuhin hai.".... "It is You and You alone, Whatever is, it is all only You". It is You ! It is You ! It is You ! Whatever Is, It is all You ! What a Divine play (lila) it is. It is transcendental (alaukik). Only His Divine Play (lila) is happening. Respect, name, fame ... all this is a divine play (lila). You alone have become all. You have become everything and now it is called the world... It is You; It is You; It is You. Prabhu ! Prabhu ! Prabhu ! It is You ! It is You ! It is You! It is You ! ... It is You You You !!! You in all these forms ! It is You Prabhu ! Prabhu ! Prabhu ! ... You You You You .... In all these various forms It is You, It is You... YOU ! Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Siyaavar Raamchandra ki Jai, Mor mukut bansi waale ki Jai ! From Discourse in Hindi on Nov 3, 2001 at 3:00 pm by Swami Ramsukhdasji. Ram Ram ----------- What is ABSOLUTE SANATAN dharma?Absolute dharma is that you are atma and due to illusion, you identify yourself as body. From absolute perspective, there is no suffering or happiness. Suffering and happiness happen to body and they don't happen to atma. Please read Bhagavatam 11th canto Chapter 23. It clearly states that it is your mind which causes suffering. There is no suffering for a person who realizes that self is beyond this body. Krishna says in Gita that you are your own friend and enemy.Vyasji mentioned that the law of karma is eternal law. I don't disagree but Gita goes one step forward. It states that the consciousness matters more than karma itself. Arjuna thought that the killing people was sin (Gita chapter 1). But Krishna states that the action done as an offering to Krishna with equanimity etc does not bind. There is no karma for such individual.From absolute perspective, you have been doing good and bad karma from infinite births. You have suffered much more than this birth and you have enjoyed much more than this birth. Ultimately, this birth will go away. The true seeker of truth should use this opportunity to go beyond the births or karma.>dharma" covers all societies and is correct at all times. That is beauty of Sanatan Dharma ! -- Naarad MaharishiI agree. Just be clear what eternal dharma you are referring to. Don't think of dharma associated with body as eternal as body itself is not eternal.> Any abuse to any human is bad and should not be taken ! -- Naarad MaharishiWhen did I say that abuse should be taken.> It does not basically make any difference whether a social system at place X ( say America) is say A and place Y ( say India) is say B. -- NishaIt makes difference. Condition A --> Husband beats his wife. Wife can leave him but she has no other place to go. She cannot get job as she is not educated. She does not have parent or society support.Such person may be better off still staying with the husband.Condition B --> Husband beats his wife. She can report to government. Government will give her money, free housing etc. She can get job and live better life without her husband.Such person may be better off leaving her husband.Such rules vary situation to situation.Ram Ram.Gaurav Mittal ------------------------ Hari Om Respected Vyas ji ,Many Thanks for your very enlightened answers and taking my questions seriously Yes ! I do believe in God ! I believe in what our shastras say . I believe in Gita . But also I believe that woman have not been given their worth for what they have done for the mankind , by serving their families with utmost care , bringing up their children and now even with growing education , participating equally in earning to run the house , Their responsibilities have doubled but their situations have not changed . What will be the percentage of men like few Sadakas who respect women ? Have you ever visited any mental asylums . They are full of women of 45+ age , ditched or battered by their husbands or children for none of their fault ! We can not say that all women are suffering of their previous birth karmas . The discussion on sufferings end with just one statement -- please go on suffering because if not in this life you have done anything wrong , it may be the previous birth that you are made to suffer .The subject started with -- what about wife beating their husband ? What is the ratio ? Not even 2% ! 98% of women suffer in the hands of their partners brutally .The larger issues are to be dealt with . How should we educate our children , the younger generation to respect their spouses , to co-operate in all spheres of life . Vasundhara . ------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Pranaams In 20 years of working on violence and life of women, the cases of wife beating the husband is extremely extremely rare. So it attracts a lot of attention. Since it is rare we do not even have specific examples to work on. We need to follow whatever path opens to bring down violence in life of people.As Mr.Sushil Jain says it is not about who beats whom... As Bhagavadgeetha says each action performed as yajna, with unconditonal love has opened up a lot of possibilities towards violencefree life, even joyful life. Pranaams veena -------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Shri Dineshji, One beating another is not humanity. Whether it is the man getting beaten up or the woman. By beating each other up, both are commiting a mistake. Your question is that if the wife beats the husband, then what do the scriptures say about it? The scriptures are ready to unravel / solve / explain such expositions, if one reflects on them in entirety. If you write complete story then only something further can be elaborated , but your remarks cannot be properly explained with regards to the scriptures. For those who cannot learn / solve by hearing and talking through, for such people judiciary (court of law) can be applied to settle issues. Vineet Sarvottam ---------------------- Hi Dr. Dinesh Patel, Nothing is new in the world. If husband has beaten his wife/spouse before in twenties and thirties, then wife is going to beat his husband in late life and Husband has to watch and tolerate. Actions and reactions are equal and opposite directions. We understand this principle in physical world/science. But it is true in human lives and applicable to human lives. In fact, husband or the wife has no right to beat, if beats, one has to suffer in later life or in the next life. No exceptions to this rule (the natural laws). Jashwant Shah ------------------- Hari OmReplies to queries raised by Vasundharaji ! At the outset, Welcome, Madam to this Forum :Q I don't agree with this answer that '' The wife should understand this to be the restitution, revenge (badlaa) and debts from previous birth, that are being paid off in this form. Therefore she should understand that her sins are being destroyed and that she is becoming pure.''A What is alternative? This statement has been made when the Questioner stated that all other alternatives given have exhausted and are not possible to be implemented. Can anybody claim, Madam, that she/he had an option before taking birth as human of choosing parents, gender, family, country, caste, creed, circumstances, situations, states, incidences, good or bad events which take place in this life? If you ponder coolly, the answer would be .. No ! Nobody wants adversity but can you pin point a single human known to you who has never faced adversity? You are in "human life" ! This is "dukhalayam" on one hand (only sorrows, and nothing else) and "Vasudev" (only God, and nothing else) on the other hand. Do you agree upto now? If any body has option, why will he/she suffer? Sufferings begin only when you dont have options ! Any doubt? (Raise doubts freely, pls). In this statement quoted by you there is a situation where the sufferrer has no options left but to consider it to be her fate and pay off. Now this statement has following ingredients:1 No one causes sufferings to the others. One reaps what one sows. You suffer due to your sins only and due to no body else's sins. (Suffering here means confronted with adverse circumstances- not being sorrowful/happy. To be sorrowful/happy is not caused by fate; it is caused by fresh stupidity)2 When you suffer consequences of your karma, you become pure/debt free. Q After all When is this vicious circle is to end ?A When you have suffered fully the consequences of sins made by you.In other words when adverse circumstances arise before you the old karmas extinguish.Q Will this previous karma and debts of previous birth last till eternity ?A No ! As soon as your debt is repaid in the form of adverse circumstances arising , you become pure. Why should you suffer till eternity? Every good/bad Karma gives good/bad results and thereby extinguishes. God and His Divine Laws are "just and equitable" ! Do you believe in God, Vasundharaji ?Q It has to be seen in modern days applications .A Please elaborate. I am too living in the same time you are living viz modern era. Law of Karma is an eternal Law. Are we not doing any Karmas now? If yes, how "modern" or "old" times are relevant here?In any case please give your valuable suggestions regarding "modern day applications"We are talking about a law operating in human life based on past lives/deeds ! Hence "past" deeds results in "present" ; "present" deeds result in "future" ! How time is of any essence / relevance then ? Results of past only is present, Madam ! Q Since long time women did not have any identity of their own .A Oh No ! What do you say Madam? You mean to say without them this world has been fed, created, nurtured, sustained? They are 1000 times superior to males not from today but from day 1. How can males survive without affection of mothers? From where Saints or Sages have come on this earth? Read Scriptures. They are full of the glories of females. Kindly do not undermine your own gender and fraternity with such harshness ! Do you know one of the respected elders of our Swamiji ( you have quoted His statement only here in your response ) - Sethji Jaidayal Goenka once said (almost one century back ) ... If given an option I will like to take re-birth as a female, in India !! Does not that speak volumes about taking birth as a female ? Cheer up, Madam !Q They have suffered because they did not have any alternatives and to look after their children and husband and home has been their first and last priority .A Now in modern era what has happened? What new alternatives have been invented? What new priorities have been found? Is taking care of home and children not the priority now? What then is priority? How today's world is running without mothers sustaining homes ? Ever went Madam to Children's Schools recently ? Please go and see, how mothers affectionately make children grow, ensure they board school buses safely, cook foods for them with loving and affectionate hands and put that in tiffins , dress and groom their little ones for school and functions; wait for them to come back, prepare them for annual school functions and make them better citizens ! See How they educate them, protect them, nourish them ! Where ever you are living on this planet, go to a near by school and see yourself. Q Their untold stories were burnt in their funeral pyre . A I told this is "dukhalayam" ! This is very character of human life. This is how the world has been designed ! This place is akin to an examination hall. It is a laboratory of mother Nature. Here you are vetted, examined, cleaned, dis-infected,.... put into fire..... straightened out and made pure by affectionate Mother Nature .... so that you may be placed in the loving lap of Father Paramatma !!By the way, those whose stories are told also are burnt on funeral pyres only. Who is not burnt on funeral pyres? Q We can not look back for all the answers in our mythological characters .A Will todays generation not become "mythological characters" tomorrow? If you can not look back , do not !But tell us what you can do, and how that solves the problem ? What is your answer? I will give answer:What is the "real" problem? Problem is "Operation of Law of Karma in Human Life" ! You know what is solution ? Solution is : Not to sin. Not to do bad karmas. Live life in a hygeinic, pious way. Do not harm others. Do not see evil in others. Do your duties without expecting results. Concentrate on your duties, without judging the duties of others ! Correcting one's own self and not looking at others for correction in their selves. That is the "real" solution! Any takers?Yes! If you find some one suffering try to help him/her with mind/speech/body ! Be compassionate ! Be kind ! Do that always. That is your duty ! I am afraid by being what we are, humans, to eradicate sorrows/sufferings from this world, is beyond our capacity. We can only pray, wish well and extend helping hand. That is all we can do! What brooding or fretting or being angry or critical of other humans can solve in this DUKHALAYAM ? Nothing, Madam, Nothing it can solve !!Q This is a very delicate and sensitive issue and has to be dealt with utmost understanding and care . --A That is precisely why Madam I have also spent time in elaborately replying your genuine concerns. Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B -------------------------------- the words serve a purpose ........... they serve the purpose true if they lead you into the' Beyond' .......... into silence that is Unchanging Love if the words lead only to further perpetuation of words for intellectual stimulation and enjoyment ...........ah, what purpose do they serve ............ ..?? "One can obtain plenty of enjoyment by acquiring the manifold objects of senses. Surely, one cannot be happy without renouncing them all .".....................Ashtavakra Geetha XVIII, 2............................. dear friends, make 'freedom from words' as your Goal of Life and living it is this freedom, freedom from the Mind and the Intellect, that Krishna's celestial song is all about ........ be free, be self reliant, allow wisdom and strength to arise in you from within .......... karma, bhakti and gyana, ............the three lead us unto the knowledge of the self when they become your understanding, they become Yog .............. hence , seek to understand the words of the scriptures let them become the authotity for your conduct in Life .................... and abide in Bliss ............ the 'happiness' that Ashtavakra speaks about ................... renunciation is the Way meditation is the Way .................. silencing the Mind's propensities is the Way ....... making your karma, your bhakti, your thirst for knowledge, a Yog ......is the Way ...... all your doubts shall disappear forever, for your question needs an answer from you, within you, not outside.... all answers from without shall satisfy but for a while, the doubt in the self shall rise again in yet another question till you yourself discover the answer from within yourself to the mystery that you are ........... the self you are ......... your nature true ...................... allowing your Mind to merge in your Consciousness is the Way............... meditation is the Way this is what Krishna does say when he sings of abandoning all dharmas, to seek refuge in Him alone ..................ah ! AUM narinder bhandari --------- Dear Sadaks,What Sri Vyasiji said about me, is " On the other hand, you (Myself) always get hurt because of your own stupidity / agyaan , and not because somebody wanted to hurt you." It is absolutely correct. Vasudev in Sri Vyasji gave me insight in me. I have to correct myself in solitude.Sri Vyasji also said, this ("Vasudev Sarvam also does not mean that you should consume poison because "everything - including poison- is God ".) I am yet to understand how Prahalad drank poison given by his father. Probably he thought in poison Vasudev existed. Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan ---------------------- Dear Sadhakas,I do not find any reason whatsoever, if a husband does have a right tobeat his wife , then why a wife does not have a right to beat herhusband?If it is not 'adharma' for a husband beating his wife, then why shouldit be ' adharma' for the wife to beat her husband?Namaskar, rathindra prasad lahiri ------------------------ Hari Om.I am responding to Ms. Audrey Rodrigues's letter about Swamiji's reply on the topic. Without having understood the meaning in his reply, people unnecessarily make ascene of the whole situation, after He has explained it very clearly. The is obviously a sure case of wanting to be a rebel, with no sure purpose. Kalidas V ============================= PRIOR POSTING It is not about who beats whom.......it is about what level of consciousness individuals live with..... At lower levels, the survival mode where people are insecure, worried, fearful, any thing is possible....including beating each other.... So when a man beats his wife or wife beats her husband...it shows off the individuals consciousness level...... If we can change that response will change. Better understanding of principles/wisdom/rules of life takes us to higher levels of consciousness. It increases our happiness level too. A happier person is not worried about his or her survival....at all.... He is very confident, helps others, enjoys everything...good or bad... One's behaviour/response is the direct result of our understanding of live at the time.....Higher the consciousness level, higher the happiness level which results into a great response - a happier response which in turns transforms others/environment around. Sushil Jain ------------------- Namaste!I would respectfully like to address doctors Durgesh Mankikar & Madhu Gupta.It is very easy to understand how physician can react strongly to the sufferingof and abuse of people, they after all have to deal with these damaged souls,and what they have to deal with, I expect is beyond belief.But also look at ones self, to sit down and write a comment without digestingthe whole article of Revered Swami Ramsukhdasji, (he appeared to be bridgingboth ancient and modern),is it not showing the very seed of what one condemns?Before casting of as rubbish, things labeled as 'religious dogma', if you havetime, read Stanislav Grof MD PhD. Very hard for people of science to look beyondthe paradigm of ones profession.Something else, there are people out there, that know the truth of Karma and soon, hard to become like a child again, and really look inwards, as a first stepto looking beyond!My humble respects,Om... Shanti...Mike (K). -------------------- Namaste ! I am surprised at the way some of the people have conducted on this Divine Forum. Here is a Saint who said in reply to a Questioner... 1. Any Abuse is not good . Beating a female is particularly not good 2 One should not take it lying down 3 If parents can take the daughter away , they should take her home 4 If she has option she should live a fearless divine life separately. 5 If no options then she should take as God,s will and tolerate the adversity. What else can he advice ? Which other alternative is open ? Why are we talking regarding social systems? Why are we talking regarding differences between two nations? Why are we talking as to how slavery system has been abolished? Are we that arrogant and naive ? What do you think that a Saint of the class of Swamiji would ask you to become like a cow and take injustice lying down? This very thought and this very interpretation speaks volumes about the total lack of intellect in us. What is thought? That we are capable enough so much that we can never fall into a helpless/optionless state? Learned Sadhaks should answer the basic questions raised before giving speeches on social systems and comparing two nations. Basic Question is : What was wrong in Swamiji's statements and how any other person will answer the Questioner ? This is the Question. If any body talks ill, before doing that he must reply to this query. Saint of the class of Swamiji are rare to incarnate in centuries. What wrong has He stated? What kind of modernity is this? What kind of advanced culture is this? What kind of intellect is this? Audrey Rodrigues ---------------------------- Hari OmVasudev Sathyanarainji ! At the outset let me assure you that I am not at all hurt when you counter questioned me on the practice of Equanimity and Vasudev Sarvam. It is such questioning which makes real Satsanga. You are responsible for inflicting hurt on others only when your "bhavas" also intend that. On the other hand, you always get hurt because of your own stupidity / agyaan , and not because somebody wanted to hurt you. I am also grateful to you for blessing me with your desire with my reference, stated in your post in capital letters.Coming to your observations, reg aggression, I hold the view that - "Jaisa Dev Vaisi Pooja" (As is demi- god , so is worship) is also the part of both "Equanimity" as well as "Vasudev Sarvam". If you want a child to understand something, you must become child first, and then explain.You have to talk with other in the language he/she understands. That is why often we see parents talking with toddlers in broken (totali) language- same language in which the child talks. There is no infringement there of any principles of Equanimity/Vasudev Sarvam ! Only difference between them then remains of "bhava" (inner sentiment/object) ! When a mother slaps the child, she does not become bad, because her bhava is pure ! So is the case with the doctor attending the wounded in the war ( an example given by Sadhak Basudeb Sen) or operating upon a patient to remove gangarenous limb.Your "bhavas" thus are prime propellors not your language or manner of delivery or the presentability. There each individual differs but difference in bhavas causes sins/virtue ! IT IS AT BHAVA (inner sentiment) LEVEL THAT EQUANIMITY CAN BE PRACTICED, NOT AT "OUTER CONDUCT" LEVEL !!Coming to "Jaisa Dev vaisi Pooja" - when Lord Narsing, after killing father of Prahlad, lifted Prahlad affectionately, He "licked" Prahlaad. Here the Lord was in semi animal form with face that of Lion. What does a lion do to his cubs, when happy? Licks ! Jaisa Dev, Vaisi Puja - this principle was taught and was put into practice by Lord Krishna Himself, during Mahabharat War. Hence outer conduct, the language employed, etc differs based on the circumstances by all including God Himself. The "same conduct" to all is done ONLY by Yamraja ( The God of Death) and not by any body else. Gita too employs the word "samadarshinah" (equal vision/ seeing ) and not "samvartinah" ( equal conduct) in BG 5:18 and "samabuddhih" (equal intellect- bhava- inner sentiment ) in BG 6:9 ! Thus your intellect ( bhava) has to be equanimous and not your conduct ( which includes the language you employ, the methodology and manner in which you deal with others, calmness or aggression, capital letters or small letters etc) ! Hence I beg to differ with your drawing a conclusion based ALONE on the presentability, language employed, calmness and aggression - or any presence or absence thereof ! (But Sir I am prepared to correct myself if an error is pointed out by any sadhak. ) The outer conduct etc must be "suitable" and MUST NOT BE "similar" !! Because it is impossible to conduct "similarly" among say the examples referred in BG 5:18 ( Among Jnani Mahatma, Learned and Courteous Brahmin, Chaandaal, Cow, Elephant and Dog) ! You should worship Brahmin not Chaandal. You should drink milk of cow not that of bitch. You should ride on elephant not on dog ! Similarly when you touch lower private parts of body , you should wash your hands, not when you touch eyes or face. These are examples of " conduct" which cannot be similar/equanimous. What can be equanimous is intellect/bhava not the "conduct" !! Vasudev Sarvam also does not mean that you should consume poison because "everything - including poison- is God ". Hence let there be "conduct"(Vyavhaar) based on the suitability, circumstances, nature, the type of person with whom you are dealing, the type of language/manners with which the other is conducting, etc etc but let the "bhava" be always "equanimous"- Sarve Bhavantu Sukhinah- Let Truth Prevail ! That is how "equanimity" is practiced. If my "bhava" is not to hurt others, explain them the truth- the outer conduct there is immaterial. For outer conduct the principle is - JAISA DEV, VAISI PUJA" !! Some Devas may be worshipped by flowers, some like "Kalnemi" by shoes as Hanumanji did !! Did Hanumanji not know that Kalnemi's conduct was also caused by Vasudev only ? Who else was there in Kalnemi except Vasudev ?Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ---- Question : Swamiji , I don't agree with this answer that '' The wife should understand this to be the restitution, revenge (badlaa) and debts from previous birth, that are being paid off in this form. Therefore she should understand that her sins are being destroyed and that she is becoming pure.'' After all When is this vicious circle is to end ? Will this previous karma and debts of previous birth last till eternity ? It has to be seen in modern days applications . Since long time women did not have any identity of their own . They have suffered because they did not have any alternatives and to look after their children and husband and home has been their first and last priority . Their untold stories were burnt in their funeral pyre . We can not look back for all the answers in our mythological characters . This is a very delicate and sensitive issue and has to be dealt with utmost understanding and care . -- VASUNDHARA -------------------- Dear Sadaks, This is just for better understanding. Human are designed bodily in equanimity of flesh, nerves, organs Etc. But some children are born with disability. Why? Is it mistake on scientific creation of science or Bramaji? The answer is there in our sastras very clearly and absolutely scientifically. Examples are many, but I shall quote one only which sadaks may be familiar. A great saint was in meditation at evening 6 pm when his wife forced him to indulge in sex. Script clearly says that she ripped of the robes (Vastra) of her husband and raped him. The result was birth of 2 demons- Iranyakshan & Iranyakasipu. The saint bid farewell to his wife and left to woods. This shows, indulging in sex between 6pm to 6.30 pm, the children born to them will be like demons. The time 6 to 6.30pm is time for prayers. The Shiva boothas will be always circling earth where there is Sun Set. They bless the ones who pray and curse the one who indulges in pleasures of any type or even eating. Now scientific value: The nervous system in all living beings changes to low level, which impacts on sperms produced by men. Doctors in this forum can test this. Blood pressure will very marginally every day if taken at 5 pm and taken between 6 to 6.30 pm which our Sastras (Means absolute scientific findings) say is Pradhosa Kal. The food to take, the way & time to sleep, the gap between each child bearing by woman, the easily available leaves the woman can use to avoid pregnancy Etc To drink water: Use NO stainsteel, use only earthen ware or other metals, use copper vessel with Tulsi to avoid infections, sit on ground with coir or wooden mat and eat food, do NOT drink water with right hand Etc. There is specific quality wood platform where doctors can use patients to test. This wood reveals easily to doctors the nature of disease. Sadaks knows that a wooden platform Sri Krishna used on which if one stands will speak only truth. King Vikramathitya also used. Doctors can test the following: A water in glass and in stainless tumbler if kept for 30 minutes changes it`s property. Sitting on ground while eating, makes one bend to eat. At that time the nervous system around spinal cord gets a yogic therapy (stretch and contract process) will enables the digestive system excellently. The brain is in 2 parts. Right & left hemisphere. The nervous system from mooladhar goes circling around spinal cord and reaches left and right hemispheres of brain. The nervous system at mooladhar has 2 parts left & right. But when they reach brain, the left system reach brain on right side and vice versa. Take contaminated water on 2 glasses. Hold one on right hand and other on left. Hold for 2 minutes and test them. The glass held on right hand will show the contamination of mineral/TDS reduced when compared to the glass held on left hand. So drinking water with right hand makes water better. But while eating, how is it possible? Sastra says, lift glass with left hand to drink, but just support your right hand below left hand while drinking. To see this effect scientifically, doctors can use KERLION camara. Now when body degrades, the soul leaves the body. The whole system works fantastically. 1st cuts off hearing, 2cd cuts off speech, 3rd cuts off senses (To avoid feeling pain of death), 4th cuts off sight and 5th cuts of painlessly the prana (Breathing system). All Pancha Boothas goes back to its origin. (Agini heat in body goes to Agini, water goes to Varuna dev Etc). Then the travel of soul anthim Kal starts. Reaches solar system (Sun) as Athuman said by Bagavan is much more brighter than SUN. From there depending on what one has done (Cause and effect) goes to the destined direction and after the karmic rules (Soft ware) is input to that soul reaches the top layer of this earth known as stratosphere, waits for arriving to a womb which has suitability to accept it is fitted software. Then soul reaches the earth with the software called astronomy, the place of birth, caste, type of parents, man or woman, brain designed to take certain load in education, moods, time of birth and death etc. Details in Kapila Geetha and other scripts. Bible said, NO REBIRTH. It is to be understood as soul has NO rebirth (Not the body) That is why, a woman in certain family has full rights, another woman disregarded, another woman prostitute. All these are body related Karmas which we have to be witnessed but NOT get emotional. Instead learn the cause and effect and behave in this birth. Like Shikhandi fated to be cause of death to Bhisma who did mistake in bringing, Ambal, Ambalika and X (Name forgot) 3 daughters from their kingdom without proper permission. Today life- One put rubbish hectically in temple, ashram, or where people may get infected, gets next birth as garbage cleaner in corporation. A dog travels in car, but another dog No place to sleep. Theory of Karma- refer Jada Bharat story. A woman born in USA enjoys privileges compared to woman in Afghanistan. To certain bad karma born as woman, but for certain good deeds, the place of birth changes. Sadaks just be witness to all these, not involving emotion why and why not. Focus mind on God, do good deeds as much as possible. To get down from car and give alms to a beggar woman with courtesy has lot of puniya when compared to just throwing money at her. All living being treat as Vasudev and see the difference in your mind that gets to set at anandham (Blissful state). Each action counts a lot on our future. Jai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- Jai HanumanA Q has been asked by Dr Mankikar that if say my daughter is placed in similar circumstances, what shall I do? My answer is - I shall bring her home ! Anything wrong there. Now I ask him a question :Where did you find/ read the following statement ?"one should suffer at the hands of a husband, in order to wear out one's prior karma." Is not this a statement drafted by yourself only ? I am asking you a Q , Sir ! Yes! It is a statement drafted/understood/ inferred/interpreted by you and you only ! Hence your allegation that the aforesaid statement that that it is "irresponsible religious dogma" is applicable on you only ! Prove it me else as to why you are not in your own words are indulging into an "irresponsible religious dogma" !! Prove now, please !Sadhaks of this Divine Forum must understand that we are not here to commit sins. Never we should talk ill/condemn/ criticise Saints and Sages. NEVER ! The horrible sins such as murder of cow, foetus etc can be pardoned by Daddy the Great, Jee, but not the sin of inflicting insult/abuse on the Saints and Sages ! BEWARE !!There are many methods of expressing differences of opinion; of seeking clarifications/elucidation ! Sure we are civilised people and need civilised answers- as stated by one of the Doctors ! But can all three Doctors or any one of them tell me as to what kind of Civilisation or Culture or Character or Courtesy or Country difference is this Conduct - of first mis- drafting/ mis-interpreting/mis-inferring/ mis-understanding a statement and then alleging others for the same ( rather so harshly criticising/ abusing / condemning a Saint) and then making veledictory / editorial proprietary comments , and thus trying to derive mileage out of the same as if the entire wisdom is concentrated in one person/ country/ theme/ thought/ social outfit/ lib ? Who has ever taught us to be like this ? What is wrong in at least understanding before expressing? Reading before writing ! Is there no wisdom in that ? Does no primary/secondary or higher school or college or course now a days teach that ? If yes, what is wrong in getting one self admitted again in a Primary School and acquiring basics which we forgot to grasp earlier due to pre- occupations ? Lifting the pen or pushing the buttons of computers without thinking or applying any mind/intellect/common sense .... Just basing on ego or whim or fancy or false sense of superiority or wave .... I dont think this is modern / civilised/ developed /advanced / educated response or reflection ! One should never try to give that thing to others, which one himself/herself does not have !Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala ----------------------------- AUM ah, sathyanarayan jee .....you are so right .....each word is meaningful...but ....... ....... the meaning has to rise from the self ......... ..........bin bujhe, mithya sab bhaye ..................ah ! and what comes to the self that is No Mind, is ................... some day, feelings of tired-ness with questions, answers, and discussions must arise in the self .... the self must feel tired of words, that lead not to Silence of Being the source of words !all that needs be said.....has been said ...... and said yet again.....whether it is the husband, who beats the wife, or, the wife, who reverses the game that Time and Space choose to play......... Nothing now remains to be added to help the self become righteous, and to move unto the Self............. ! ah, What has been said is more than enough by far !the words serve a purpose ........... they serve the purpose true if they lead you into ' Beyond' .......... into silence that is Unchanging Love if the words lead only to further perpetuation of wordsnor intellectual stimulation and enjoyment ...........ah, what purpose do they serve ..............?? nari would not wish for narinder( the self) anything but the Highestanything but the Best ! How could it be otherwise ? BUT all that needs be said has been said, dear narinder ..............it is now for you to choose ........Joy that is Silence , which embraces all its own creativetySilence that takes the self beyond right and wrong ..................... or, the Created word , that misses out on Silence ........ Ah, the beauty of Love ! Love that loves its death more than its Life ....... One leads to the Love that is choiceless and unchanging ...........and the understanding True ....... the other to Love that is words, the pain and joy alternating ...... ah, beloved, once again..... too many words ............ ah self, move into Silence , and Be................ Meditate, meditate, meditate........... till meditation as deed dies.......... and with its death, dies the eclipsing, that prevented the ' happening' of meditation meditation that is your own nature, your own Self ... the Self True !!! and let your own self provide to you the answers you seek from others ...... the answers True.......... that heals all wounds of mind and psyche ........ and help the self to live a Life free from fear, doubt, despair, and the pain of false desire ..... AUM narinder bhandari --- Jai Shree Krishna Sri Sathyanarainji as usual is at his immaculate best - a real Satsangi. From his postings we always find relevant topics for discussion. From his recent posting also the topic of Equanimity has emerged. Let me narrate a story in this regard to Divine Sadhaks of this Divine Forum: In a forest once 4 people got together by coincidence, tired and thirsty. One was- Raajputra- Prince ( Son of the King). Another was Rishi Putra ( Son of a Sage) . Third was an ideal Grihastha ( household) . Fourth was Vyagra ( an outcaste earning his livelyhood in jungle by killing birds). Rishi Putra was a "tapasvi" ( penancer) doing very difficult penances. The Household was a reasonably rich and happy belonging to a good family. They saw a hut of a Sadhu and went there expecting to get some water and shadow there. A sadhu was sitting in the hut. He offered all four something to eat and cool water. They all while leaving bowed and did Pranaam to Sadhu. The sadhu blessed them as follows. First came Raajputra to touch his feet. Sadhu said: Raajputra...Live long ! To Rishiputra he blessed : Die ! To Grihastha he said : Live or Die as you wish ! To Vyagra he blessed: Neither live nor die ! All four got stunned. What kind of Sadhu is he? A person asked , Sir this is "in -equanimity" ! How can you inspite being a Sadhu by so unequal in your behaviour? To one you are saying : Live Long. To other : Die ! This is not Equanimity ! Sadhu smiled and said : Sons ! Equanimity is not judged by outer behaviour. Equanimity is judged by inner bhavas. I wished welfare of all of you. Welfare of all of you is hidden in my blessing. This Raajputra: Because of his prior Karmas he has taken birth in the house of King. He is very happy. But in this life he is not doing good deeds. He hunts animals, he is very egoist and is a bhogi. I know that during this life his prior deeds will keep him happy. But in next life he is going to suffer. Hence I told him : Live Long !! This Rishiputra is born in a poor house and is doing hard "tapasya". He is very hardworking. Now he is not going to become happy in this life, but in next life he is going to reap rich rewards. Hence I blessed him : DIE ! This Gruhustha : In previous life he did good karma so he is born in a rich, ideal family. In this life also he does charities, does good karmas, and hence he is going to be happy in next life also. Hence I blessed: As you wish...either live or die. This Vyagra: He sinned excessively in past lives, and hence in this life he is poor and suffering. Now also he is sinning only , and hence next life is not going to be better either. Hence I said : Neither Live nor Die !! This is real Equanimity ! It is not outer behaviour which determines whether anyone is indulging in Equanimity BUT it is your inner intentions which decide whether one is equanimous or not. Swamiji would often give example of Gita verse 18 of Chapter 5. There Lord says " samdarshinah" ( equal viewing/ equally perceiving) and not "samvartinah" ( equally behaving) ! Hence outer behaviour should be disregarded in deciding whether equanimity is being followed by one or not. Swami Rupesh Kumar------------------------- Narain ! Narain !! Oh What a Divine Bliss it is to be in Satsanga of this high order. This Forum has its own divinity. Why not it should, when it is dedicated to an extra ordinary Saint of the class of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ? Coming to the subject a lot of mails on the subject of marital relationships again and rightly so considering the shape to which these relationships have fallen in the Kaliyuga ( Modern times) !!! First to Sathyanarainji ! You are right, that there should be "calm affection" in conduct. Generally it should be so. But is that the yardstick of Equanimity/ 7:19 ? I am afraid it is not so. I remember once Swamiji defined "stupidity" - A stupid is a person with 2 peculiar characteristics: 1. He himself does not know 2 He does not listen to others. Hearing this fantastic definition , a listener asked: We are surrounded by such people both inside and outside home. If some body does not know and also does not listen to others...how he can be taught and brought to track ? Swamiji smiled and told - " MOORAKH KO SAMJHAANA DORA ( very difficult) ; KOOTANA (beating/punishing) SORA (easy) !! ( To explain the truth to a stupid man is very difficult...he can only be cured by continuous punishment) ! Sadhaks- Please dont start a separate a new topic on this...it is cited here to explain the subtle principle of equanimity ! If your son is not behaving well, you are fully justified in punishing him/ dealing harshly with him. He then cant be cured by sweet/affectionate/ loving words/manners/conduct !! Hence "soft/calm/serene/affectionate" words do not necessarily achieve the goals in all the circumstances . During Mahabharat war when the wheel of Karna was damaged and he was repairing the same., Lord asked Arjuna to kill him. When Karna objected giving plea of "dharma" , Lord stated that you are not entitled to talk about dharma when you yourself transcended/ infringed that !! You need to be killed by adharma only as you always supported adharma only. To kill you is dharma and the manner of killing you is IMMATERIAL. Thus to reply to harsh words with harshness sometimes becomes necessary also and sometimes even the only option. " Bookish" vs "Practice" - the practice of equanimity does not mean that you will conduct with others in "equanimous" manner....it means you shall view others with equanimous mental equipment. How can your conduct be SAME and STANDARD towards all? No ! That is neither Equanimity nor Sarvam Vasudev !! Hence an introspection by you also is equally warranted on the bookish knowledge and on the practice thereof. You must look at object/motto of deliberators rather than on the outer veil/words used by them. There lies really the wisdom ! What do you think that everywhere principles of Gandhiji will be applicable? You are in Kaliyuga, Man !! Did you not notice the caption of this thread? World is changing , and therefore so should change the way in which you "deal/conduct" with it....keeping HOWEVER your inner bhavas to be sober/calm/serene/equanimous- towards welfare of all !! ARE YOU AWARE THAT CRITICISING/ CONDEMNING / TALKING ILL ABOUT THE DEVOTEES OF BHAGWAAN ( Say Revered Swamiji) IS CALLED " BHAGWAT APRAADH" ( Serious sin) in Scriptures and IS NEVER PARDONED BY BHAGWAAN ? Why one must not oppose those who without application of mind , criticise/cast aspersions on Saints and Sages ? Coming to Shri Gaurav Mittal's concluding remarks, let me state that "dharma" covers all societies and is correct at all times. That is beauty of Sanatan Dharma ! The truth does not change with the change of times. The manner of dealing with it may change not the substance ! Opposition to abuse was not acceptable during Satyuga also, during Treta also, during Dwaapar also and during Kali also. Any abuse to any human is bad and should not be taken ! But then who has advocated that it should not be opposed/countered ? At least before commenting and condemning ...one should point out which statement by whom is supporting non opposition to evil ? This is not fair else ! Basudebji has referred about some formulas. Can I know , Sir, which formula is being referred/criticised by you? Who has given what formula , Sir ? Narain ! Narain !! Naarad Maharishi ----- Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! Dr Patel ! Whether a wife beats husband or a husband beats wife...the act of getting physical is universally stated to be a sin ! Neither is there any doubt in it nor is there any suggestion to this respect either in Scriptures or in any statements by Respected Swamiji. If there is an otherwise feeling in any one's mind...it is arising out of own negative/distorted sense organs. In life certain situations arise when you are helpless and one must learn to tolerate them BUT only when you are optionless. That is exactly what was stated by the statement blown out of proportions and in a totally unfair and uncouth manner by some of the respondents. Dear Sri B Sathyanarain ! We all are proud of you and your wisdom and your contributions for benefit of us all. In Satsanga, only one has opportunity of correcting on fundamentals. I read your whole note regarding the need for sadhaks to "practically" implement the principles of equanimity rather than having "bookish" knowledge. You are very right there..no doubt. But what according to you distinguishes between a bookish knowledge and practice thereof? Is it merely the written or spoken words; manner of dealing say calm/ serene/ affectionate/ angry/ harsh/aggressive etc or something other than that ! Difference has to be something more deep than what has come out of your post...much much deep ! I will give you an example. A robber/thief comes into your house. You catch him. Now what will you do? Will you consider him to be "VASUDEV" ? Certainly the thief is a normal human with worldly views. Will you " calmly explain him with affection about the supreme knowledge which has covered all disciplines of education" ? Will you consider that " Bhagwaan does make the thief to indulge in theft in your house" and respecting the wish of Vasudev, will you handover whatever he wants? Will you consider him to be a "tool in the hand of Bagavan to test your emotions"? Definitely, Sathyanarainji, the thief in this example is "yet to know about the Laws of Karma" ! Will you " educate him slowly and steadily so that the thief becomes divine" ? OR You shall hanover him to Police ? OR You will let him go ? What will you do? ( No Individual need to take this example upon himself/herself please. My intention here is to explain a subtle point here. It does not mean that some one is thief or robber. Please! We must learn to be a Satsangi. We must learn the art of learning) The answer to your observations regarding practice of Equanimity in real life is hidden there. Take a better example. You sibling conducts himself in a bad manner or is indulged in inappropriate conduct. Is there anything wrong if you just hang the qualities of affection/love etc for the time being and ruthlessly cure the disease ? Are few tough words not warranted there? Hope this is taken in right spirit. Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! Anirudh -- Radhey ! Radhey !! Gauravji ! It does not basically make any difference whether a social system at place X ( say America) is say A and place Y ( say India) is say B. Truth always remains truth. You are talking about nitti gritties. We are talking about "principles" ! Principle is that a situation when it becomes unbearable for the spouse to bear he/she must live separately if she/he has options. Now if somebody has no options of any nature whatsoever...what advice can be given ? You are talking as if in America there is a total hygeine reg marital relationships. Egos dont clash there. Child/wife/husband abuses dont take place there. Police and social outfits are very strong there. All females are employed there and humanity is living there as if in a heaven. And therefore you can consider that social outfits decide whether X is your duty or not ! Wonderful. Humbly, I differ with you. Be it India or America, heaven or hell- sorrows and pleasures are there everywhere. In hell also the creatures experience pleasures, and in heaven too they experience pains. Because in heaven or hell the entire karmas of Jeeva are not burnt/get squared of. Hence "different social outfits" are not subject matter of deliberations here. Whether you can run away from the clutches of Law of Karma is the issue ? Issue is whether THE MODERN EDUCATED PEOPLE have any magic stick by which they can eliminate sorrows from life. No ! Whether HELPLESS situations in life are not encountered by all of us sometime or other ? Whether it is proper for some one to speak in totally uncivilised language with reference to a statement made by a Saint ? What does education teach us? Why we are trying to deviate from main issue? Radhey ! Radhey !! Nisha Chatterji ---- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadaks, Often we have been saying, `'Sarvam Vasudevam". But when need comes to practice we fail. We are also bookish, but not practical. Where is the need for showing aggressive words on Sri Maduji that too with capital letters? Maduji for me is also Vasudevam. Sadaks please tell what is meant by "Yogaroodan" referred by Bagavan in Geetha. Maduji is educated well in the discipline of body related matters which I do not know. He is normal human with worldly views. He has to be explained calmly with affection about the supreme knowledge which has covered all disciplines of educations. "Does it befit you that you call some statements by a Saint to be"ridiculous/malpractice"? Who has murdered whom?" said by Sri Vyasji illuminated in him by Bagavan. By our Sadakji post. These lines I can understand. Even if our Swamiji was here to hear this, he would have remained undisturbed. Sri Krishna remained calm when Pounderaka Vasudevan abused Sri Krishna. 108 abusive bad words by Sisubal on Sri Krishna, could not least disturb Sri Krishna. Bagavan does make people to talk in negative manner, to test our patience. Sri Maduji is tool in hands of Bagavan to test our emotions. SRI VYASJI KINDLY BEAR WITH ME, IF THIS HURTS YOU. I WANT YOU TO BECOME LIKE SWAMIJI. There is lot of people reading our message. Can we put them in most understandable common simple language? Most people are yet to know about the laws of Karma. They can be educated slowly and steadily in order they become divine. In recent news it says in Afganistan, that woman are denied food and beaten if they do not satisfy sexual urge of their men. These men cannot be made to understand. These women are placed there by their own Karmas to dissipate and become free from Karmas. This I can know, Sri Pratabji, Sri Vyasji, Sri Mikeji and other scholars who studied Vivekachudamani and certain portions of Geetha. I do not expect Sri Maduji, as he is yet to know the laws and theory of Karmas. If one comes to know this, he becomes pure. Example: In Srimath Bagavath: One who cast eyes on neighbors` s wife, will reach hell with suitable body to satisfy his desire. There a copper doll of life size of the woman, whom this man craved, will be given to embrace. But this copper doll will be heated, as such on embracing; this man gets burns and suffers. Bible says, "Thou shall not cast on your eyes on your neighbor wife". But it did fail to explain why? If one deeply concentrates on this, he will completely avoid seeing other woman. All such matters are there in full text. "If that married man, perhaps with children, had dumped his wife, for you, the situation would have been worse, for everyone, and especially the children. Thank God, nothing like that happened." Said Sri Durgesh Mankikar. Absolutely right in his view. But Sadaks should always refer to Sastras while thinking views. "Do what other like to do to you" is saying in Bible and in our puranas as well as in Geetha. Seeing like that, I feel, "What if my daughter was betrayed by a married man". Then there will be 2 angles of views, 1) My daughter 2) That married man children. But our divine sastras says both the woman and the married man will be punished, IF THEY fail to realize their mistakes and do prayachit. For this there is separate book by sages in Vedas, to do "PRAYACHIT DHRMA" SHIKHANDI was spared by Bhismaji only for the reason, a man cannot raise weapon on woman who is without weapon. DHARMAVAN BHISMAJI. Besides Sri Krishna indirectly upraises Bhismaji the previous day about who this Shikhadhi is. So Bhismaji welcomed death by knowing to wash his Karma. We have to learn from Sri Krishna while HE used to be with HIS wife Sathyabama. She is said to have used anguish language on Sri Krishna. Where as Sri Rukmani Matha was absolutely divine with Sri Krishna. But Bagavan was same to both in behavior, words and in karuniya. HE loved both equally by HIS BEHAVIOURS. (Thereis reason given by Sri Krishna HIMSELF) Bagavan showed us to be in equanimity. All that HE said in Geetha, HE put into practical. Have we put into practice equanimity? To Introgate ourselves is essential JAI SRI KRISHNA b.sathyanarayan ----------------------- Many women stay in abusive relationship. In America, there are social organizations which help women to get out of abusive relationship. Otherwise, they continue in abusive relationship and even blame themselves for abuse.Same pattern is true with child abuse. Child abuse victims blame themselves for abuse inflicted on them.This leads to feeling of guilt, depression and many other emotional disorders. Such people lead miserable life due to emotional issue and many times, they are like living dead person who has no joy or happiness in life.It is not advisable to tolerate husband's abuse. That is true in US where society provide huge amount of support of victims of domestic violence. It is more easier for women to work and live good life without husband.In India, there might be many women who cannot make their livelihood and are dependent on husband. It might still be advisable for them to stay with their husband. If they cannot make money and they get out, they can still be exploited. On the same topic of society taking care of women, in India there is no system to take care of children. If parents die, the children come on streets if they don't have relatives to take care of them. In US, they have foster care system which takes care of kids.Social values change with time, place and circumstance. What we consider wrong in current society can become right after few hundred years.For example, 50 years ago slavery was ethical in US. Now, slavery is unethical. We have to use our own judgment in following our guru or teacher. I focus on Swamiji's teaching on self, paramatma and understanding the Truth. Those teachings are eternal. Teaching's related to social behavior will change with time and may not apply to all societies.Gaurav Mittal ----------------------- Jai Radhe..Radhe Radhe Jai Seete Seete seete.....Radhe Radhe... Sense India -------------------------- An act by itself is not to be categorised as Dharma or Adharma. Gita or other authentic scriptures do not make such categorosation without reference to the context of the Action/ Reaction - under what situation an action is done by a person with what obligations. Beating any one including the self is not considered a desirable activity as such. Beating in self defence or in defence of someone else is in accordance with dharma, provided that there was no other alternative to beating a person who is attacking as a method for such defence when physically attacked, provided that the attack was not instigated to get into a fight and provided you are not a Sanyasi of such a stage where one is not pained by being beaten by somebody. Gita and other Hindu scriptures are authored by wise persons and they would not consider prescribing formulas. And, they did not because what is an act of dharma for person X under situation A may not be an act of dharma for Y or under situation B. What is Dharmic action for a professional warrior in a situation of war may not be Dharmic action for a doctor attending injured soldiers in the battlefiels. What is dharma for a household may not be the dharma for a sanyasin. A judgement is always to be made. Even the same act performed by a person under situation A may be both dharmic and adharmic. For example, beating the wife is adharma both because she is wife and she is possibly weaker: but beating the wife to save the child she is beating to death because of terrible rage is also dharma if that is the only way the child can be saved. One has to make a choice by making a judgement as to what is important at the point of time of action. It also depends on the state of the mind when some one is beating some one else. If one starts beating X simply because the person wants to test his/ her power or because of rage the person or because the person does not like X is adharma. When the mind is cool and not conditioned by rage, anger, hatred, desire or ego, one can find out what action is dharma under each circumstance. Any thing done as a ritual and as a matter of habit is likely to be adharma because such act is not based on judgement. However application of mere judgement does not guarantee that an action based on such judgement is necessary in accordance with dharma. If the ability to make judgement within a paerson is much higher than what one has actually used to arrive at a decision for the action, may make the action adharma. So, practising dharma can not be based on formulas given by some scripture: it all depends on the context of the action, the nature of the actor, the motivation behind the action, etc. Dharma is not so easy as it is generally made out. Basudeb Sen -------------------- Statements like "one should suffer at the hands of a husband, in order to wear out one's prior karma." are irresponsible religious dogma. If your own daughter in such a predicament, what would you do? . No reason to support such repeated beatings. That is then no different than stoning a woman as in the middle-east. We are a civilized nation and we should have civilized answers. The husband needs to see a Psychiatrist, and needs counseling. The wife needs a job, or some other outlet to make money and have her own independence. Society should move forward, not backward. Religious interpretations too should move forward with the times. Durgesh Mankikar,MD PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadaks, Like Indian penal code, there is laws in Sastras. Similarly like concession given to woman, there is concession given to an Athuman to be born as Man. Man beating woman or woman beating man are both forbidden. Man beating woman, the man takes away her past sins of the woman 10 times mor when compared to woman beating man. When a Bhramin commits a mistake the punishment is 10 times more when compared to ordinary man committing same sin because the bhramin knowledgeable and still commits mistake. The hidden fact behind the beating is that the man is paving way to that woman to reach heavens faster. In Prakurthi what we understand is upside down. Tasty masala food is harmful when compared to leafy food which does good to health. Bagavan in Geetha said about the food and its affect on Gunas.B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ Hari Om Madhuji ! You are a doctor , You are an educated person. Does it befit you that you call some statements by a Saint to be "ridiculous/malpractice" ? Who has murdered whom? Where is the Q of condonation? Who has condoned whom? If you get shocks like that how will you cure others suffering from shocks ? Communication skills and manners are taught in Primary Schools in MODERN DAYS also. Are they not? You said " Each person chooses to commit evil…..the other person does not have to take it" ! OK….now tell me what other person can do ? If he can do …who prevents him to do? Where is the recommendation that abuse is good? Where is statement that abuser is good? In the message of Revered Swamiji many alternatives have been given. Did you read them? Are you not aware that whenever adversity comes…it first snatches away all options available to you ? Where is adversity existing if you have escape route? If you are not aware then you must re-visit your understanding and knowledge levels. You get trapped by circumstances , Madam ! It is a law that you must must SUFFER your past karmas. Where will you go? How can you run away ? Will your past karmas spare you? You are talking about " MODERN DAY APPLICATION" ! In modern days such crimes are more than they were in prior days. In modern days …. No body gets helpless…is it? You mean to say that in Modern days the Law of Karma has been won over? No body need to understand spiritual issues now? Everybody has sword in hand? All difficulties of life have been understood and MODERN DAY EDUCATED PEOPLE, have answers for them ? NOTE IT : Education alone does not make you free of abuses . You cant escape your karmas however knowledgeable you may be. What do you think that "getting modern" is the way of getting "pain – free" ? Pains are there in every era…to every Jeeva….to every body ! You tell us the alternatives which you have in the given example ! Now tell us….. what alternatives the lady has …which is not covered? TELL US , I SAY !! TELL US IF SOME BODY HAS CANCER……WHAT WILL HE DO ? WHERE CAN HE RUN AWAY ? REMEMBER: Every adversity has in it a HELPLESSNESS hidden. You are said to be suffering ONLY when you have become HELPLESS. No body suffers if he/she has options not to suffer. One needs to deeply understand human life…its vicissitudes and its operating mechanism, and how Law of Karma operates in human life. Here the Saint was asked a Q….He gave answers …. the parents of the woman could not take her back into their home and when questioner still insisted on what the additional options were? …then He stated…accept the circumstances as they are and turn towards God…… and if you have option to live separately do so and become fearless ! What is wrong with that? What is evil in that? What is murder-like in that? It is important to read something carefully before condemning it. NOW ANSWER !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaskar,In a male dominated society like ours, much has happened for hundreds of years, such as widower should marry but not a widow.So if a wife beats her husband, I will call it...that Indian women have come out of male domination and attained GenderEquality...Gee Waman-------- Jai Shree Krishna A Saint's teachings are based on scriptures and therefore Timeless, and to whom I call to be a DOCTOR OF ALL HUMAN DISEASES.... AADHIS AS WELL AS VYAADHIS...... Having concluded something without properly reading is waves of ignorance and ego.. ! He was ultra modern ! His teachings are much ahead of TIME...... to remain applicable in all eras and times. Timeless Truths !! NOTE FOR EVER: Time never changes the TRUTH. When we cant understand something, it could be our lack of capacity to understand, it could be our ignorance. Law of Action and Reaction ever prevails. How does it operate? When a sorrow is called a sorrow? What is human life? Why it is stated to be "abode of sorrow" ? What is the difference between an animal and a human? Sometimes degrees and titles and egoism that comes with it, obscure sour vision and intelligence, thinking that they have answers to every problem, and if you dont have then some animal called "MODERN" has that. Please kindly answer, based on your modern knowledge, what the lady in question can do ? It is easy to criticise then help provide humble, meaningful compassionate answers. VIDYA DADATI VINAYAM ( Education results in soberness/humbleness ) . Words such as malpractice" or encouraging murders or as if they condone abusers are very strong words. I suggest you first point out as to which statement made by Revered Swamiji justifies the adjectives which you have given. Swami Rupesh Kumar. ------------------ PRIOR POSTING This posting (below) is ridiculous and malpractice, I am a physician-- as a spiritual group you must NOT carelessly quote readings without realizing their modern-day application. Each person chooses to commit evil- the other party does not have to"take it" not to mention the abuse,including sexual that occurs, and child abuse that accompanies these situations. You are condoning murder to occur- women are most often killed not by a stranger, but by their abusers. I am shocked at your lack of responsibility. Madhu Gupta, MD ---------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Madhuji, Kindly point out specific statements in the response by Swamiji that appear to be careless quotes. Swamiji clearly states that if the husband's abuse in not tolerable, she should confront him with it and live separately from him. She should lead a fearless life earn her own livelihood, worshipping God. What aspect of the message is careless ? Kindly respond. Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram ---------- : Shree Hari:Ram Ram3rd August, 2009, Monday, Shravan Shukla Trayodashi, Vikram Samvat 2066,SomvaarQuestion: What should a wife do if her husband beats her and gives her trouble?Answer: The wife should understand this to be the restitution, revenge (badlaa)and debts from previous birth, that are being paid off in this form. Thereforeshe should understand that her sins are being destroyed and that she is becomingpure. When her parents find out about this, they can take her to their ownhouse because they certainly had not given their daughter in marriage to bebeaten up !Question: What should she do if her parents or parent's side cannot take herinto their house?Answer: Then she should bare the fruits of her past karmas (actions). Undersuch circumstances what else can the helpless lady do? She should patiently,perseverently bare the abuse of the husband. By baring this, she will becomefree from sins and further along it is possible that her husband may startliking her. If she is unable to tolerate the husband's abuse, she shouldconfront him with it and live separately from him. She should lead a fearlesslife, earn her own livelihood, worshipping God.A man should never beat a woman. Shikhandi was born only to kill Bhisma. Whenhe came in front of Bhisma, Bhishma could not raise his hands to shoot him. Thereason is that Shikhandi was a female in his previous birth and even in thisbirth, he was born a female and later became a male. Bhisma thereforeconsidered him to be a woman and did not attack him.Unfavorable situations in life arise only due to some sin. During such times ifone engages in devotion and worship of Bhagwaan (God) with fervor andenthusiasm, then the gains will be two-fold. On one hand the sins will bedestroyed and on calling out to Bhagwaan (God), your faith and trust (Bhagwadvishwaas) in Him increases. Therefore when adversities and misfortunes aise,women must not be disheartened and lose their courage.When adversities and misfortunes arise, one must never ever think of commitingsuicide; because a person incurs deadly sin by committing suicide. It is asmuch sin as commiting murder of another. Man thinks that by commiting suicide,his sorrows will come to an end and he will become happy. This is absoluteblunder, because firstly the previous sins did not get destroyed, and inaddition new sins were incurred ! Those who had attempted to commit suicideand were saved from the clutches of death, have shared their experience thatthey had to bare a lot of pain while committing suicide and later deeply regretsaying it would have been better if they had not tried to commit such a crime,but what to do now? Such persons who commit suicide become ghosts and evilspirits and in that form they remain hungry and thirsty and undergo intensesuffering. The point is those who commit suicide meet with grave misfortune andbad circumstances.From "How to Lead a Householder Life" in English pg 68-70 by Swami Ramsukhdasji ================================= GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that theyfurther help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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