Guest guest Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 My dandavat pranams to all, My question is one which may cause some conflict, but I am determined to bring this issue to light. I recently read in one post, by a most studious indiviudal, that Lord Ramachandra never made any mistakes....He is (and was) Divine, and is not subject to making mistakes. So, is Srimati Sita Devi, the consort of Lord Rama, any less divine? She is worshiped as the "other half" of the Godhead. I ask this question because from the narrations of the pastimes, it appears that Rama punished her again and again for having been touched by Ravana. Punishment is due to making mistakes, is it not? . So, how is it that she was capable of making mistake (allowing Ravana to abduct her, by being misled out of the protective circle created by Laksmana)? I personally believe that her actions were of course, Lila....but simultaneously, acting in the capacity of "appearing to be human", both Rama and Sita made mistakes. I believe that Rama's mistake was to humiliate Sita unnecessarily, at the point when He journedyed through His kingdom, incognito, to hear what the citizens were saying without their knowing it was their King listening. One man was saying to his wife, who had stayed away over night, "Just because Rama lets Sita back, after being touched by another man, don't think that I will do the same". Rather than chastising this man, and upholding the dignity of his wife, who did not voluntarily leave the protection of her husband, Rama took the side of a low class, abominable person, who had so discrimination that he would compare the mother of the universe and her being abducted against her will to his own wife's nefarious activites. I say this was a mistake of Lord Rama's, and the entire world has suffered for it since, as without the presence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and His eternal consort, the condition of the earth planet and her inhabitants has sunk lower and lower into degradation. Therefore, no good has come from the decision made by Rama, which caused Mother Sita to call her Mother, Bhumi, to swallow her back into the earth. I would like to know, Mahalakshmi ------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that theyfurther help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Focus on subject at hand only.6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modifythe posting.8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.MODERATORRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 My dandavat pranams to all, My question is one which may cause some conflict, but I am determined to bring this issue to light. I recently read in one post, by a most studious indiviudal, that Lord Ramachandra never made any mistakes....He is (and was) Divine, and is not subject to making mistakes. So, is Srimati Sita Devi, the consort of Lord Rama, any less divine? She is worshiped as the "other half" of the Godhead. I ask this question because from the narrations of the pastimes, it appears that Rama punished her again and again for having been touched by Ravana. Punishment is due to making mistakes, is it not? . So, how is it that she was capable of making mistake (allowing Ravana to abduct her, by being misled out of the protective circle created by Laksmana)? I personally believe that her actions were of course, Lila....but simultaneously, acting in the capacity of "appearing to be human", both Rama and Sita made mistakes. I believe that Rama's mistake was to humiliate Sita unnecessarily, at the point when He journedyed through His kingdom, incognito, to hear what the citizens were saying without their knowing it was their King listening. One man was saying to his wife, who had stayed away over night, "Just because Rama lets Sita back, after being touched by another man, don't think that I will do the same". Rather than chastising this man, and upholding the dignity of his wife, who did not voluntarily leave the protection of her husband, Rama took the side of a low class, abominable person, who had so discrimination that he would compare the mother of the universe and her being abducted against her will to his own wife's nefarious activites. I say this was a mistake of Lord Rama's, and the entire world has suffered for it since, as without the presence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and His eternal consort, the condition of the earth planet and her inhabitants has sunk lower and lower into degradation. Therefore, no good has come from the decision made by Rama, which caused Mother Sita to call her Mother, Bhumi, to swallow her back into the earth. I would like to know, Mahalakshmi ------- NEW POSTING Hare KrishnaDear Everyone,Happy Diwali.I would request all sadhaks to listen to Swamiji's pravachan dated 16th Jan, 1997 titled 'Seeta-Tyag Prasang, Vartaman Dasha'. Same question which has been raised by Mahalakshmiji was asked to Swamiji and He has spoken a length on this subject.The discourse answers this question very clearly.Thanks,Varun P. Paprunia ----- Jai Shri Hari,First of all, please do not get stuck on the things just because some body said so. It is very common in our society that the people depending upon their own nature and capacities interpret the same thing in their own ways (MUNDE MUNDE MATIR KHANDE: Many minds many meanings/interpretations) and try to make people believe that. Swami RamKrishna ParamhanshJi used to caution people that unless you are authorized (i.e. realized) do not try to convince others about what your know. Spreading wrong messages especially about any incarnation, saint or scripture causes great sins.The shloka "SHRUTI VIPRATI PANNA TE -- 2:53" indicates that the confusion born because of many interpretations and philosophies is one of the main hurdle in the realization. If you think something related to any incarnation, saint or religion is really bothering you; get that scripture and first try to understand it by yourself from the perspective of the author. Unless you look the things from the perspective of the author you will not be able to understand the things completely. Bhagavaan Shri Krishna says "JANMA KARM CHA ME DIVYAM--4:9", means his birth and works are divine. Similarly, all the works done by great souls are divine as after realization only the supreme remains. Lord Krishna clearly says "MUNINAAM API AHAM VYASA -10:37" i.e. he is VyasJi. In otherwords, all the works (i.e. Puraanas, Mahabharat, Brahmsutra ...) done by Shri VyasJi are divine. Similarly, all the works done by great sages (like ValmikiJi, Goswami Tulasidasji) are divine.It is very very difficult to understand any vedic scripture (Shrutis, Smritis, Puraanas etc.) completely. This is the reason, it is always recommended to understand the vedic literature from a Shrotriya Brahmnishtha teacher who has realized the truth and is well versed in the literature. For ordinary people, a Puraana may look like a story book but at the same time for a shrotriya brahmnishta person it is a commentary of Vedas (PURYATI ITI PURAANA: Puraana completes the Vedas).Lord krishna says "AVAJAANANTI MAAM MOODHAAS MAANUSHHIM TANUMAASHRITAA - 9:11" i.e. fools considers him as a human being. He also says "JANMA KARMA CHA ME DIVYAM - 4:9" i.e. his birth and works are divine. The same lord says "RAMAH SHASTRABHRITAM AHAM - 10:31" i.e. HE IS RAM himself and therefore any of RAM's Divine Lila can not be judged by human being though all his Lilas (i.e. Divine Play) were performed in the form of a human being. Also, what is good and what is bad depends upon many factors including time, place, role, culture etc.. Above all, the God himself is "ETERNAL RELIGION-14:27" who only knows what is good and what is bad. In otherwords, it is beyond our intellect to judge any incarnation or saint or divine scripture though we can learn a lot from them and attain the supreme goal.Thanks & RegardsNiteesh Dubey Dandavat pranams.... A second inquiry to Vyasaji: "What did you read in my second posting that indicated bitterness?" I have just read it over, and over.....I only was indicating that if anyone thinks that there is mistake, this is Divine Lila.....that Rama and Sita are playing the part of humans, they are entitled to decisions which might be interpreted as mistakes. How is that bitterness? I also stand by my conclusion that Mother Earth is suffering immensely due to the lack of a Vedic King. Daily, thousands of unborn children are murdered.....cows are slaughtered without even an understanding that they are anything more than "property"....or "cattle". The term "cattle" does not indicate the same connotation as a herd of cows, but rather a soul-less impersonal "thing". Have you seen the slaughterhouses? Or the dairies...which are nothing but factories for a substance they call "milk"? I have seen the dairies, out here in California.....they are horrendous. How, if Sita and Rama were ruling the planet, would such a conditon exist? I stand by my statement that Rama's decision was improper. All of us, and Sri Rama included, tend to be overly sensitive about our intimate, loving affairs..... I will also say this, which I said perhaps 12 or 13 years ago...."what a shame that Sita did not simply accept a second time to enter the fire.....and to emerge victorious....forgiving her husband for demanding this again to please the critical....if she had been a little more humble, than perhaps the world would still be in the era of Rama Rajya".....But perhaps she knew, inherently, that people like magic shows.....that there would be no end to this humiliation. So, she said, "enough is enough.....no more. If they do not accept, but even more important, my Lord, if YOU do not accept and stand by me, I cannot go on." No, my dear Vyasaji, my bitterness is gone....for I have seen the reaction to Sita having been left to suffer for years, raising her childen without her dearly beloved husband, Rama, beside her. Rama has born His suffering for His actions.....and peace and tranquility have resurfaced. Dandavat pranams to all.....Maha Laksmi Dasi ----------- One more important point of Ram and Sita.Mahalaxmi thinks that Sita suffered due to actions of Ram. This is wrong understanding.If you have read Swamiji's teachings, no material circumstance can cause suffering. Suffering happens to those who are attached to inert matter. How can Mother Sita suffer who can never be in ignorance of accepting inert matter.If you understand teachings of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he emphasized on the mood of love in separation. Bhakti or love in separation is more intense than bhakti in union. For example, Radha's love is in separation. Radha and Krishna are always together and Krishna never leaves Vrindavan. Still, Radha's mood is love in separation which is more superior than Rukmini etc. (Note: Actually, in one sense they cannot be compared.)Similarly, Sita exhibited love in separation when in Lanka and then, with Valmiki. Actually, there is no suffering in that. It is more intense and actually, more pleasing. We cannot understand the relationship between Ram and Sita. Even Tulsidas did not delve in detail.A lot can be written on it. Just quick comment on this issue.Jai Sri Ram.Happy Deepavali!Ram Ram. Gaurav Mittal -------- Dear Sadhaks It can be well understood the feelings, the love of Mahalakshmi towards Sita. This is a normal thing, which one lady is to have towards another lady. It is not that we should express our favour or pitty towards any of the characters of Ramayana. Our expressing the love or pitty will not help increase or decrease the divinity of that text. We should remember that even before we are all here, this text has been available in almost all the languages in the world. We have a number of spiritual instituions built by admirable personalities years ago. But all of us know, such institutions are deep sunk in dirty ponds of the materialistic/worldly matters. The complaints of Smt. Mahalakshmi appears to me that it is out of ignorence. It cannot be understood by just reading the texts, like a lot of the writings on Sanatana Dharma. When one is able to learn from a realized soul, all the misconceptions, misunderstandings will vanish and the mind will become clear and pure. In Ramayana, the SriRamaHridaya, portion, the words of Bhagwati Sita itself is enough to know and Lord Ram has not done anything. All the things are being done by me, says Sita. Only those ignorant people do not know this. When Sita herself has no complaint about the pains she suffered, why others are so bothered. Sita could have gone to her father, Janak Maharaj, get the army/betalian etc and start a war against Ram. She could have done a sit-on Dharna in front of Ram's bunglow. She could have just telephoned the Ladies Right Protection Front (or any such organisation) and lodge a complaint against Ram. She could have given a petition in the High Court or Supreme Court towards existence allowance or maintenance allowance for her and her two children. Sita has not gone for any of this. Because she herself had no complaint at all. Instead, what she taught to her children... Only the praisings of Lord Ram. To understand Ram, Sita and Ramayan, a different view, a different vision, a different attitude, a different mind is required. Kindly do not absorb the writings of the books asitis. This is my humble and humble request. Best wishesVIJAYANJI ------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Sushri Mahalakshmideviji, Paramatma's Divine play can only be understood by being Paramatma. Man does not have the capability to find faults in Paramatma. Either accept Sri Ram as a man, or get over the tendency to find faults in Him or else nothing else will be within your reach. In Mahabharat and in the Gita, Bhagwaan Shri Krishna said - I manifest in all the three worlds in many different avatars (forms) and according to the very forms I take on, I protect and establish Dharma and for protection of the righteous. Read in Swamiji's book Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye page 211 - 212. So be it, Vineet Sarvottam ------- LORD SHIVJI SAID IN MANAS CHARIT RAM KE SAGUN BHAWANI O Bhawani(Parvatiji) Leela of Avatar Shri Ram JI TARKI NA JAHI BUDDHI MAN BANI Cannot be weighed by MAN BUDDHI OR LANGUAGE ( mind, intellect or speech) THIS IS THE SHORTEST N SWEETEST N YET TRUE REPLY FROM ISHWAR THANX RAJA Gurdasani ------------------------- Hari OmMahalaxmiji ! You have not understood the responses of sadhaks at all . You have not understood my message also. You are arguing just for the sake of arguing. I dont agree with the bitterness you are reflecting unnecessarily without going into deep. Frankly, you have made me regretful , of writing my last message. I just wanted to communicate innocently that in human life error is imminent. I never thought that conduct of Lord Rama was responsible for value deterioration for the humanity at large since then ! How can any one think like that ? Indeed, negativity never helps, as rightly said by Sathyanarainji. I have learnt my lesson anyway. I never thought that your Q is not a Q but a judgement by you. I thought you are talking about impossibilty or otherwise of a harmless 'mistake' by incarnations, or realised souls. Pls note any action made by any incarnation of God can never create a negative result for humanity. NEVER ! All negativities lie in individual human brains only . By the way, why we should endeavour to find faults in Lord Rama ? That will lead us to what? Is not our goal ultimately to see God in all ? And here is the very incarnation of Paramatma, Lord Rama , on whose conduct you are bitterly commenting. Why ? What does it get you? How does it help you? Is that the respect age and experience have taught to give to Lord Rama or for that purpose to any human ? Have you never heard : Hare Raama Hare Raama, Raam Raam Hare Hare !!Mother Sita and Lord Rama were inseparable. Once the Lila was over, they were to be Lord Vishnu / Mother Laxmi always. How can you judge the divine conduct ? Beautiful responses have been given to you by all sadhaks- Dhananjayaji, Gauravji Mittal, Basudebji, B Sathyanarainji, Nagaji ! And of course, a one liner beauty by Rajaji . You are not even aware of the reasons/ curses/boons responsible for advent of various characters in the epic. No body can know all the secrets of Divine Leela of That Paramatma who is unlimited , infinite, and beyond knowledge ! You can only believe. Please leave intellect aside and learn to trust as stated by Rajaji !You should either believe or not believe. What basis you have got to state that it is only after Lord Rama sent Sitaji to vanvaas , there has been value deterioration in humanity at large ? Are these 'divine thoughts' ? This is the conclusion you have arrived from reading epic like Ramayana? Blaming the very Lord !! Since when we have become so big? We are humans. Wohi jaanat, jehu dey janaai ! Only that Jeeva can know Him, to whom He gives power to know Him ! I can understand if you want to enlarge your knowledge by asking this Forum questions . Many good explanations have been given to you. Did you read them? Lord Narsing, doing Lila licked Prahlaad to live the role of half animal/half human. Any fault there? Mother Sita and Lord Rama were here to set examples of great conduct as a king, as a human, as a Maryaada Purushottam.How many Emperors can make such "tyaag" (sacrifices)? A king is never of his family first. He is always of the country ! Is humanity finding faults with Mother Sita ? Is not "Sita Raam" a famous salutation /mantra ? Did you see any temple in which only Lord Rama is there with no Sita Mata ? Did Mother Sita ever complain ? Did Sati ever complain ? Why then you are instead of deciphering out the Leela of Divine, passing strictures ? Where will it lead to you? Better ask Qs rather than passing judgements !!Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------- Namaste to all You are absolutely correct about the mistakes made but not necessary infer that earth calamities is due to these; regards Anand Tularam -------------- Sita was not touched by Ravana. In Ramcharitmanas, Ram gave Mother Sita to Agni and therefore, maya Sita took form of Mother Sita. Mother Sita did that when asked by Lord Ramchandra. So, Ravana never touch Sita. Ramcharitmanas goes even one step forward and Tulsidasji states that Ravana even never touch Maya Sita. >>> it appears that Rama punished her again and again for having been touched by Ravana. Mother Sita was not punished. Ram took Mother Sita back from fire. >>> Punishment is due to making mistakes, is it not?It is not my understanding that Mother Sita made any mistake. Mother Sita never made any mistake. I will be surprised if you can get any sloka which states that Mother Sita made any mistake. >>>> Rama took the side of a low class, abominable person, who had so discrimination that he would compare the mother of the universe and her being abducted against her will to his own wife's nefarious activites.Did Ram punish Sita or Himself? The position of King is privilege. Ram set the standard of the King. Even if people are wrong, King should follow the people. What kind of standard do you want? Sacrificing one's own most beloved wife was the greatest sacrifice. Do you want the standard where lusty king can cheat people to please their wife? >>>> I say this was a mistake of Lord Rama's, and the entire world has suffered for it since, as without the presence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and His eternal consort, the condition of the earth planet and her inhabitants has sunk lower and lower into degradation. Who has suffered? Have you read Ramcharitmas? You should read Ramcharitmas with bhakti and many doubts will go away. My few thoughts on chastity and many readers may disagree:::::Value system (right or wrong) change with time. The level of advancement of humans changes and therefore, value system or codes of morality change. In Dvapara, Treta and Satya yug, humans were very advanced. Lot of stories in Puranas are also not of humans. Puranas talk about devatas. For example, sages like Vasistha etc are the sons of Brahma. Are sons of Brahma humans? No. Man of previous yug had tremendous yogic powers. They could live longer. They could control nature from their mind. Through tapas they will attain more and more yogic power. Similarly, women were very advanced and their power was chastity.In kaliyuga, men have lost their power. We can use machines and we don't have any spiritual power. Even so called spiritually advanced people of Kali are infinitesimal as compared to people of other ages. We are always fighting and diseases are always bothering us (there was no disease in the kingdom of Ram.) So, men have lost their power.Similarly, women have lost their power of chastity. It is difficult to be chaste. For example, I won't be surprised if my daughter feels internal attraction to other boys when she gets older. I cannot expect her to be internally chaste. Controlling internal sex attraction is very difficult to control. So, the value system of chastity does not apply to women anymore.It is said:harer nama harer nama harer nama eve kevalamkalua nastyaive nastyaive gatir anyathaIn Kali yuga, the name of Hari (Ram) is the only way. There is no other way.My humble request is that don't see actions of Ram from your relative ethic. Accept Ram as the Supreme Lord. Love Him and remember Him. Ignore the lilas of Ram which you don't like. Focus on positive aspects.For example, I love baby Ram and Krishna. I focus on lilas of Ram and Krishna as baby. Similarly, focus on the form to which you feel love.May you be blessed with bhakti of Ram and May all of us become devotee of Ram!!Ram Ram.Gaurav Mittal ------------ Dear All, Why not we bury the hatchet – whether Lord Rama and Mother Seetha did or did not commit mistakes. As ordinary mortals under the need to go through several more births to reach a status in which we can sit on judgment to decide on their actions, let's discuss more important and practical lessons that we can draw from Ramayan. Let the entire humanity first all of believe that Ramayan was a real history and not just a fable. Very recently, I received by email an interesting scientific report from another forum and I take pleasure in sharing that with the members of this forum, many of whom might not be knowing it. Of course, the one that I am copying hereunder has my own foreword as I am more than convinced that it is the advancement in science and technology that has been giving lot of room for people's questioning mind penetrating even the realms of religion and spirituality triggered by the EGO of individuals, which is humorously expanded in Edging God Out! So, instead of analyzing the facts of Ramayana, let us all appreciate the truth of Ramayana. Hereunder the scientific report: QUOTE BEGINS My foreword: Said to be an authentic scientific work, I am sure, when circulated widely, this will put to rest the raging controversy in certain circles whether Ramayan, like Mahaabhaarath, is a real history or is like one of the Arabian fables! The reason is not too far to seek: man trusts his own inventions more than he does God's wonderful manifestations. And his own software bears testimony to the truth of Ramayan! If tangible proof alone (like the Pyramids) is going to be the basis of man's belief, even 300 years from now there will not be any tangible proof of our today's existence. Should it, therefore, mean at that point in human history that we never existed? Man's disbelief in Ramayan or for that matter in any great epic is as stupid as that. As a questioning mind reads through the following scientifically proven report, it will surely harbor a doubt as to which software Maharshi Valmiki might have used to determine the various planetary positions during the life time of Rama! The fool will never realize that his scientific knowledge is ridiculously infinitesimal when compared even to an ordinary look of the Maharishis and Sages of ancient India. Poor man has not yet realized that he is just a speck wafting around in this vast expanse! Earlier a man frees himself from the delusion that he is the master of all that he surveys, better for him. With the above foreword of mine, I am now taking you through this great scientific discovery…enjoy it… Dating the Era of Lord Ram : Discover the Actual Dates of the Lifetime of Lord Ram Excerpts…(The following document is the 'MOST' authentic scientific work that does not need further scientific verification.) The story of Shri Ram's life was first narrated by Maharishi Valmiki in the Ramayana, which was written after Shri Ram was crowned as the king of Ayodhya. Maharishi Valmiki was a great astronomer as he has made sequential astronomical references on important dates related to the life of Shri Ram indicating the location of planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations and the other stars (nakshatras) . Needless to add that similar position of planets and nakshatras is not repeated in thousands of years. By entering the precise details of the planetary configuration of the important events in the life of Shri Ram as given in the Valmiki Ramayan in the software named "Planetarium" corresponding exact dates of these events according to the English calendar can be known. Mr Pushkar Bhatnagar of the Indian Revenue Service had acquired this software from the US.. It is used to predict the solar/lunar eclipses and distance and location of other planets from earth. He entered the relevant details about the planetary positions narrated by Maharishi Valmiki and obtained very interesting and convincing results, which almost determine the important dates starting from the birth of Shri Ram to the date of his coming back to Ayodhya after 14 years of exile. Maharishi Valmiki has recorded in Bal Kaand sarga 19 and shloka eight and nine (1/18/8,9) that Shri Ram was born on ninth tithi of Chaitra month when the position of different planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations and nakshatras (visible stars) were: i) Sun in Aries; ii) Saturn in Libra; iii) Jupiter in Cancer; iv) Venus in Pisces; v) Mars in Capricorn; vi) Lunar month of Chaitra; vii) Ninth day after no moon; viii) Lagna as Cancer (cancer was rising in the east); ix) Moon on the Punarvasu (Gemini constellation & Pllux star); x) Day time (around noon). This data was fed into the software. The results indicated that this was exactly the location of planets/stars in the noon of January 10, 5114 BC. Thus Shri Ram was born on January 10, 5114 BC (7123 years back). As per the Indian calendar it was the ninth day of Shukla Paksha in Chaitra month and the time was around 12 to 1 noontime. This is exactly the time and date when Ram Navmi is celebrated all over India. Shri Ram was born in Ayodhya. This fact can be ascertained from several books written by Indian and foreign authors before and after the birth of Christ - Valmiki Ramayan, Tulsi Ramayan, Kalidasa's Raghuvansam, Baudh and Jain literature, etc. These books have narrated in great detail the location, rich architecture and beauty of Ayodhya which had many palaces and temples built all over the kingdom. Ayodhya was located on the banks of the Saryu river with Ganga and Panchal Pradesh on one side and Mithila on the other side. Normally 7,000 years is a very long period during which earthquakes, storms, floods and foreign invasions change the course of rivers, destroy the towns/buildings and alter the territories. Therefore, the task of unearthing the facts is monumental. The present Ayodhya has shrunk in size and the rivers have changed their course about 40 km north/south. Shri Ram went out of Ayodhya in his childhood (13th year as per Valmiki Ramayan) with Rishi Vishwamitra who lived in Tapovan (Sidhhashram) . From there he went to Mithila, King Janaka's kingdom. Here he married Sita after breaking Shiv Dhanusha. Researchers have gone along the route adopted by Shri Ram as narrated in the Valmiki Ramayan and found 23 places which have memorials that commemorate the events related to the life of Shri Ram. These include Shringi Ashram, Ramghat, Tadka Van, Sidhhashram, Gautamashram, Janakpur (now in Nepal), Sita Kund, etc. Memorials are built for great men and not for fictitious characters. Date of exile of Shri Ram: It is mentioned in Valmiki Ramayan's Ayodhya Kand (2/4/18) that Dashratha wanted to make Shri Ram the king because Sun, Mars and Rahu had surrounded his nakshatra and normally under such planetary configuration the king dies or becomes a victim of conspiracies. Dashratha's zodiac sign was Pisces and his nakshatra was Rewati. This planetary configuration was prevailing on the January 5, 5089 BC, and it was on this day that Shri Ram left Ayodhya for 14 years of exile. Thus, he was 25 years old at that time (5114-5089). There are several shlokas in Valmiki Ramayan which indicate that Shri Ram was 25-years-old when he left Ayodhya for exile. Valmiki Ramayan refers to the solar eclipse at the time of war with Khardushan in later half of 13th year of Shri Ram's exile. It is also mentioned it was amavasya day and Mars was in the middle ... When this data was entered, the software indicated that there was a solar eclipse on October 7, 5077 BC, (amavasya day) which could be seen from Panchvati. The planetary configuration was also the same - Mars was in the middle, on one side were Venus and Mercury and on the other side were Sun and Saturn. On the basis of planetary configurations described in various other chapters, the date on which Ravana was killed works out to be December 4, 5076 BC, and Shri Ram completed 14 years of exile on January 2, 5075 BC, and that day was also Navami of Shukla Paksha in Chaitra month. Thus Shri Ram had come back to Ayodhya at the age of 39 (5114-5075). A colleague, Dr Ram Avtar, researched on places visited by Shri Ram during his exile, and sequentially moved to the places stated as visited by Shri Ram in the Valmiki Ramayan, starting from Ayodhya he went right upto Rameshwaram. He found 195 places which still have the memorials connected to the events narrated in the Ramayana relating to the life of Shri Ram and Sita. These include Tamsa Tal (Mandah), Shringverpur (Singraur), Bhardwaj Ashram (situated near Allahabad), Atri Ashram, Markandaya Ashram (Markundi), Chitrakoot, Pamakuti (on banks of Godavari), Panchvati, Sita Sarovar, Ram Kund in Triambakeshwar near Nasik, Shabari Ashram, Kishkindha (village Annagorai), Dhanushkoti and Rameshwar temple. In Valmiki Ramayan it is mentioned that Shri Ram's army constructed a bridge over the sea between Rameshwaram and Lanka. After crossing this bridge, Shri Ram's army had defeated Ravana. Recently, NASA put pictures on the Internet of a man-made bridge, the ruins of which are lying submerged in Palk Strait between Rameshwaram and Sri Lanka. Recently the Sri Lankan Government had expressed the desire to develop Sita Vatika as a tourist spot. Sri Lankans believe this was Ashok Vatika where Ravana had kept Sita as a prisoner (in 5076 BC). Indian history has recorded that Shri Ram belonged to the Suryavansh and he was the 64th ruler of this dynasty. The names and other relevant particulars of previous 63 kings are listed in Ayodhya Ka Itihas written about 80 years ago by Rai Bahadur Sita Ram. Professor Subhash Kak of Lousiana University, in his book, The Astronomical Code of the Rig Veda, has also listed 63 ancestors of Shri Ram who ruled over Ayodhya. Sri Ram's ancestors have been traced out as: Shri Ram, King Dashratha, King Aja, King Raghu, King Dilip and so on.. From Kashmir to Kanyakumari and from Bengal to Gujarat, everywhere people believe in the reality of Shri Ram's existence, particularly in the tribal areas of Himachal, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and the North-East. Most of the festivals celebrated in these areas revolve around the events in the life of Shri Ram and Shri Krishna. The events and places related to the life of Shri Ram and Sita are true cultural and social heritage of every Indian irrespective of caste and creed. Therefore, it is common heritage. After all, Shri Ram belonged to the period when Prophet Mohammed or Jesus Christ were not born and Muslim or Christian faiths were unknown to the world. The words Hindu (resident of Hindustan) and Indian (resident of India) were synonymous.. India was also known as Bharat (land of knowledge) and Aryavarta (where Aryans live) and Hindustan (land of "Hindus" - derived from word Indus). During Ram Rajya, the evils of caste system were non-existent. In fact, Maharishi Valmiki is stated to be of shudra class (scheduled caste), still Sita lived with him as his adopted daughter after she was banished from Ayodhya. Luv and Kush grew in his ashram as his disciples. We need to be proud of the fact that Valmiki was perhaps the first great astronomer and that his study of planetary configurations has stood the test of times. Even the latest computer softwares have corroborated his astronomical calculations, which proves that he did not commit any error. Shabari is stated to be belonging to the Bheel tribe. Shri Ram's army, which succeeded in defeating Ravana, was formed by various tribals from Central and South India.... The facts, events and all other details relating to the life of Shri Ram are the common heritage of all the Indians including scheduled castes, scheduled tribes, Muslims, Christians, etc. Prophet Mohammad was born 1,400 years ago. Jesus Christ was born 2,000 years back. Gautam Buddha was born 2,600 years back, whereas Ram was born 7,000 years back. Hence, discovering the details relating to Shri Ram's life would be lot more difficult as destruction caused by floods, earthquakes and invasions etc., would be far greater. But, should that stop our quest for learning more about our cultural heritage? As Indians, let us all take pride in the fact that the Indian civilization is the most ancient civilisation today. It is certainly more than 10,000 years old. Therefore, let us reject the story of Aryan invasion in India in 1,500 BC as motivated implantation. In fact Max Mueller, who was the creator of this theory had himself rejected it. Let us admit that during the British Rule, we were educated in the schools based on Macaulay school of thinking which believed that everything Indian was inferior and that entire "Indian literature was not worth even one book rack in England". If there were similarities in certain features of Indian people and people from Central Europe, then automatic inference drawn was that the Aryans coming from Europe invaded India and settled here. No one dared of thinking in any other way. Therefore, there is urgency for the historians and all other intellectuals to stop reducing Indian history to myth. There is need to gather, dig out, search, unearth and analyze all the evidences, which would throw more light on ancient Indian civilization and culture. QUOTE ENDS Let us have faith in our own religion, in our epics and in our own ancient history and also believe that ancient Indians achieved many things beyond the ken of the most intelligent men of today in the absence of today's science and technology. With kind regards to all, V. K. Naageswaran -------- PRIOR POSTING RamayaNa - Rama and Sita …Ramayana is the saga of a seeker such a Sage Valmiki. Rama is his seeker. Sitais the Shraddhaa. When seeker befits to get Shraddhaa 'marry' him, the truespiritual journey starts for the seeker. The journey is obviously tortured inthe oblivion of the jungle called mind, body and world wherein the desires(Maareecha) and ego (RavaNa) join together to mislead the seeker at weak momentsin his life into the worlds of desires and fears. When the seeker lets thedesire of 'golden deer' tempt him to chase the illusions webbed by the desires,he is sure to loose his spouse, The Shraddhaa, to the ego which is just waitingfor such an opportunity.When the Shraddhaa is abducted by the ego, the soul laments in misery unable tounearth the whereabouts of the ego and hence the abducted Shraddhaa. Only purityand clarity of mind (Hanumaan, Bhagavan Shiva) that can think through one's verydepths of subconsciousness can unearth the whereabouts of this slippery ego. Theseeker has to wage the war against the Rajas-Tamas duo (RavaNa and KumbhakarNa)of the ego and its illusive offspring, Indrajit, perpetually creating webs ofdesires to release the captive Shraddhaa. After all, even the ego is justwaiting for Rama to terminate it as it does not know how to do it itself! Whenslain by Rama, RavaNa lets out a blissful breath of releif as the eternity(VaikunTha) opens gates to him.Even when the Shraddhaa is found, the seeker cannot blindly accept it as he hasfailed once already. He has to keep the vigil and subject the spouse to firetest in terms of strict and severe austerities. The Shraddhaa happily goesthrough this test as its only goal is to enable the seeker attain his goal, TheEternity.It can so happen that the weakness of dependence within may turn the seeker sodependent and attached to the very Shraddhaa. A fellow seeker or one's ownconsceince may tease the seeker of his weak dependence on Shraddhaa which hasbecome the hinderance for the seeker to let go of this world. Afterall,Shraddhaa belongs to the nature, Prakriti - body-sense-intellect cluster.Attachment to Shraddhaa is nothing but an indirect attachment to the world. Theseeker appreciates and lets the Shraddhaa go back to the oblivion from wehere ithad come out once. He lets the Shraddhaa go back to the womb of its mother,Mother Earth from which it had taken birth to start with. By letting theShraddhaa go to its origin, the seeker attains his origin, THE SELF.It was Rama's fault for letting his spouse Sita (dedication to spirituality) bereplaced by ReNuka (attraction to the world) in the first place. Our friend,Satyanarayanaji, is right. How can the ego touch the prestine dedication(Shraddhaa). It can abduct only a desireful intent (ReNuka). How could ReNukaenter the arena ... because, the seeker (Rama) let that happen. The seeker letthe desire to engulf his wisdom making himself a victim to the ancient evil ofall, the desire, the golden deer. After facing the formidable ego in its ownturf and after vanquishing that along with its vicious associates, when theseeker testifies all his desires against the fire of self awareness, the ReNuka(the desireful soulmate) is transformed back to Sita (desireless soulmate) asall the desires are awarefully burnt down in the very fire of consceince andvigilence.From spiritual point of view, I cannot see any other way Valmiki would havewritten his epic. Whatever Valmiki says, that is the only way for a true seekerto seek THE TRUTH against all the odds of living in this world. My greatfulsalutations to Sage Valmiki for helping the helpless like me to help myself.Respects.Naga Narayana --------------------- Ram Ram You are mistaking like Parvati to see God appearing to be human.Bhagwan'lila is also divine and it was part of lilla.There is no scope of criticism is Lilla only faith required is God and His Lilla both are divine.Your question is not of discussion. Thanks & Regards Pawan Kumar Singhal ---------------------- Hari OmLord Rama / Krishna etc were "avataars" ! Avataar means "coming down" ; 'stooping from the level' ! When they became humans, naturally they have to behave as humans. Hence, keen observers, can find errors committed by them too. Saints and Sages call those errors to be "Leela" but still the fact remains, that no human life escapes error-free! In Leela too, once they have taken birth as human, you ought to err. Human life can be entirely sin free but not entirely error free ! Lord Rama got "angry" also, on Ocean ! Lord Krishna was 'cursed' by Gandhaari. She blamed that He could have averted war had He really wanted, but did not 'want' that. ALL characters of Mahabharata, without exceptions sinned/erred at some point or other. Mother Sita crossed the "Laxman Rekha" inspite of being warned not to and paid the penalty for the same . So goes the eternal saying : To err is human.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ---------------------- Namaskar,To begin, i have never posted any messages but have gained valuable insight intoDharma through many messages posted and which i receive on my email.i did not know much about Ramayan untill when my wife was pregnant with ourfirst child. At the time we were fortunate to have Darshan of our Guruji. He wasvisiting USA and He would reiterate that my wife see Ramayan on video, knowingvery well that reading it would be difficult for her for reasons i do not wantto elaborate. Those wishes of His we followed and that has changed our lives.Not only are blessed with a sensitive, smart and pious son but Ramayan hasexplained dharma in a way which has brought peace in our lives without a doubt.Currently a few thoughts come to my mind about your question about Shri Rammaking a mistake, please bear with me -- when SitaMaa was young She had once surprised Her father King Janak who was asupreme jnani, by lifting the same bow of Lord Shiva which subsequently onlyShriRam could lift. When Raja Janak saw that it only confirmed his belief thatSitaMaa was a divine soul and that Her groom when She was ready for marriageshould be equally worthy of Her.Now what is not mentioned commonly is that Raja Janak had kept that bow open foranyone to attempt to lift it knowing very well that only a divine power would doit. ravan during his travels had also attempted to lift the bow but could not doso. This is the same ravan who could lift Shri Kialash!!! SitaaMaa is infinitelystonger then ravan.To think that ravan could snatch SitaaMaa against Her wishes is notunderstanding who She is. She is none other than Parabhrama Godess Lakshmi.Before ravan was to come and get SitaaMaa with the wish of ShriRam left him andwhat was left was a representative of Her.-how can Agni harm someone from whom it has originated? ShriRam & SitaaMaa areParabhrama who are everywhere and form whom everything originates includingAgnii dev.For people familiar with Ramayan there is an incidence where once a crow kept onteasing SitaaMaa and finally ShriRam gets angry and shoots an arrow whichfollows the crow all over the world until the crow apologises. Such was Hislove. Subsequently we see that same affection again with RadhaKrishna.One of the reasons for Agnii pariksha is because RamBhagwan wanted to show theworld who SitaaMaa's is. For humans like us just like gold brings greed, firebrings fear and thats why we tend to forget that for SitaaMaa who is devotionincarnate fire is a part of Her manifestation. we forget that SitaaMaa is aGodess and look at Her as a human.i think i have written a long message already - but just one more thought - ihave learnt one thing myself that it is more easy for the mind to criticize thanto have faith and look for peace from which will follow all answers.Also, it is a fine to sincerely question someones motives but please refrainfrom calling names esp. ShriRam- He will still love the person who hurts himlike manthara but the agony you shall have to go through will be unbearable.Respectfully,dhhananjay---------------------- most of the answers and viewpoints have been given by the sAdhakas. i would like to add a few points, observed as i read through the replies. 1. for bhakti you may refer to other rAmAyaNas, but for analyzing characters, you must refer to vAlmIki's rAmAyaNa, where the characters were first developed. 2. even though the divine is a matter of faith for many, when a doubt comes, it should not be hushed away as 'how dare you doubt? where is the faith?' because then it is nothing better than many other dictatorships we know. 3. saying that 'millions respect without doubt, so you must' is also hiding the dirt under the carpet. such sAdhakas who get doubts, should be congratulated for there open mind. the only thing to remember is that in doubting, we should pass the judgment beforehand. not even 'i like this, and i don't like this'. for times have changed, the 'lead by example' needs different examples, etc. 4. my simple off the cuff remark to those start thinking 'low' of rAma due to the agni parikShA (which sItA took on her own) is this: if you at the gossiping of a dAsI, whims of a step-mother, illusion of a father, inciting of a coup by your brother can still leave a multi-billion dollar company's CEO-ship (heir of ayodhyA), remain in exile for 14 years, never entering a settlement (sugrIva throning) even when others don't know of your vow - then you can, as the future king of an empire, decide how you want to treat the case of handling rumors about the future queen. [sorry for the rather long sentence] 5. times have changed, yugas have changed. we are not able to comprehend the needs of the society of vAlmIki's time. also, uttarkANDa seems to have been added at later times, and could have had messages from different ages. 6. to say that women were oppressed, based on sItA's agni-parikShA is the most ignorant statement. who was mantharA? and kaikeyI? dasharatha could have killed manthara; killed kaikeyI, exiled her, poisoned her, in isolation or anything, had he not loved truth more than life. lakshmaNa had even told rAma to take over by force. bharata/shatrughna were ready to kill mantharA and even kaikeyI. yet, they didn't! who in the history has left an entire empire on the whim of a stepmother incited by a dAsI? princes have killed their own fathers to get the throne! 7. many explanations are given in the original texts to make the story interesting and to make a point through a certain situation. remember, the two itihAsas (rAmAyaNa, mahAbhArata) and various purANas were written to give the wisdom of the vedas, through stories for the masses who had less time, attitude and aptitude for a very high syllabus of vedas. so sometimes, the authors/poets HAVE taken liberties to create a situation to showcase, highlight a real life dilemma (like, did kRiShNa really give the 18 chapters of lecture in the battlefield? how did arjuna hear properly in the middle of battleground? how did sanjaya know each and every dialogue, and thoughts of people? - these are useless arguments, focus on the story, the message!) 8. when in doubt, first doubt one's own ability to understand. while in doubt mode, you can take a stay order of not believing either side of the 'doubt', but do not dismiss the case either! thank you, - shashikant joshi (shashikgp) (not the regular one, i am the mostly silent one)----------LORD SHIVJI SAID IN MANASCHARIT RAM KE SAGUN BHAWANITARKI NA JAHI BUDDHI MAN BANITHIS IS THE SHORTEST N SWEETEST N YET TRUE REPLY FROM ISHWARTHANXRAJA Gurdasani Sadhaks, please help translate this shortest and sweetest divine message into English. From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------Dandavat pranams to all Most revered readers, I wanted to take just a moment and indicate that my question, regarding Sita and Rama, and the suggestion that Rama or Sita had made mistakes, was not intended to put them on the level of ordinary human beings. In Rama's decision, to ask Sita to enter the fire a second time, there was no glory for Him, no sense of triumph....His decision was based on the attempt to go beyond the marital relationship and put His focus as the ruler of the citizens first. So, how can that be a mistake? But in every act, there are so many considerations.....if Rama and Sita were playing the part of human beings, then certainly to accept that Their actions were apparently covered by the tendency to make mistakes should not be scripturally incorrect. Personally, I have no doubts that the actions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His eternal consort, Sita Deve, were completely perfect....even the suggestion that there were "mistakes" is not to say there was anything imperfect about Their lila.....it is a pastime, for the upliftment of humanity. The socalled "mistakes", both of Sita and Rama, are also perfect....beyond criticism! My last post, I somehow sent the message without finishing the last sentence. My question was, "I would like to know, where is THAT Rama who sent Sita to the forest?" Perhaps it is not my right to ask....it was just a passing thought. Maha Laksmi Dasi-- Dear Mahalakshmi Dasi,When we look at Ramayana from the persepctive of faminine dignity, it does notlook right at least from the current standards of living. I too never consideredRamayana seriously for a long time from spiritual point of view. When I lookback, I can clearly see the immaturity in my judgmental outlook.Rama is the embodiment of human dignity as such. His social responsibility isunparalelled by any character imagined by human kind. There are certainheirarchies in one's social life which has to acknowledged and respected as thefore-most duty.Rama is son first. Parents' dignity and wish is the foremost priority. Look athis reverence to the concepts of father and mother as well as the real relationsin life truthful to his understanding. Therefore, he quit the throne though itwas evident how the state looses in his absence.Once born as the first son to a king, Rama is the next king. Therefore, hissecond most priority is to (1) ensure that the citizens live in dignity andpeace; and (2) he sets himeself as a role model for social behavior that becomesthe pillar of a healthy and successful soceity.Once born, he becomes a doting brother to three baby brothers. Then, down thelane, he becomes husband to Sita.Therefore, his priorities are crystal clear. First perfect son. Next, perfectruler. Next, perfect brother. Then, perfect husband. In fact, he manages toperfect ALL. That is the amazing vision of Sage Valmiki. Since the first threerelations are never questioned, let us focus on the fourth.Look at his loyalty and commitment to the concept of marriage, Swayamvara. Youare there as you are clear to marry the girl. But, you do not marry a girlunless she is also equally clear about marrying you. Look at his clarity ofappreciation. You know the girl is for you and she knows it too. Then, whyanother relation? The depth of Love portrayed between Rama and Sita can never befathomed. Everytime I think of that, tears roll down naturally. Even for a splitsecond Rama did not stop loving Sita and vice versa. In fact, the toweringadversities all through 14 years prove their Love for each other beyond doubt.It is the adversities that tests the truthfulness of Love. They did not thinkfor an alternative relation even in the depths of their deep sleep.In spite of the deep Love he nurtures for Sita, he never forgets the duties of agentleman. His request to Hanuman is to ensure that Sita is keen to get back tohim before he embarks on saving Sita. His cries of Love that Valmiki protrays isecstatic. Yet, look at the responsibilities he takes before every action. IfSita has become happy to be in Lanka, Rama has no rights to geopardize thousandsof lives and to disturb her new found life as well.Vengence is never in the fore-front for Rama. That is the depth of compassion heshows towards not just humans but all living as well as non-living beings; evenat his arch enemies. At every step, he allows RavaNa to take advantage of apeaceful negotiation to avoid a bloody conflict. When RavaNa becomes too tiredand vulnerable in the war, he lets him retire and come back with fresh energyfor a fare war! His true dignity is not in his ego, but in his conduct.When he meets Sita after a long period of separation, he has to ensure that Sitastill loves him before he takes her back. Yes, Hanuman had described … but, notSita! The fire test is the first hand clearance of all the doubts. He suffersmore than Sita in this test. In addition, his commitment to be a good king hasmuch higher priority than being a husband. Citizen's respect to the ruler is thekey for the state's health and prosperity. As future king and queen, Rama andSita had their primary duty in putting all the misnomers in the citizens to restpositively. They do it willingly with no complaints to strengthen the ethics ofliving that a nation should follow.He never lets his personal emotions hinder any of his social responsibilities.The clarity of social responsibilities that Lord Rama shows is simplyextra-ordinary.This is a glimpse of social side of Rama. Spiritual side is differentaltogether. I can keep writing for my life (and lives) ... The Divine Rama ofSage Valmiki will remain unexplored.Respects.Naga Narayana. ------------------------ There is no mistake by anyone at anytime. Everyone does what he is destined to do as per the tendencies inherited genetically (Purb Samskruti of ancestors passed on through the procreation process) and the external environment through which one passes through in life (the societal/ family/ geographical backgrounds as also external events that one gets exposed to in life over time). So, no one makes any independent decision or action but only perform those actions that are the result of the interaction between one's inheritance and the external environmental conditions. So, there are no mistakes. Each one does what is justified given the inherited tendencies and circumstances that one faces over time. Everyone is therefore divine in this sense. But there are people who have inherited certain tendencies that force them to act without selffish interest and make sacrifices for others. Rama or Krishna characters depict persons of such quality. Rama never punished Sita. He anlong with Sita had to sacrifice their his marital, family life and happiness at the alter of the subject's feelings however mistaken or unjustified the feelings might have been. That action of Rama was thought of as the ideal action by the Ruler unlike in modern times when politicians serve their interest first while trying to do good for the people in general. Sita being the Queen had accepted those decisions op Rama because an ideal Queen is really the better half of the King-Queen Combine entity. It so happens that Rama and Sita had inherited these tendencies through birth, developed their attributes and characteristics further through their upbringing and experiences, and took these decisions to suffer and sacrifice in the normal course. So, there is no mistake or injustice. Had Rama not been married to Sita but to some other lady, things could have been different and Rama would not have been the Rama, the Purushottam. But that was not destined to happen. When a thief steals some thing from some one else or a dacoit murders a rich man to take away his money. they do it under compulsion of their tendencies and circumstances. For the society that is bad: for the household which suffered loss of property and life, that is bad. But the society, the concerned households were destined to suffer such bad events. When too many people suffer from such bad events due to dominance of persons of tendencies and characteristics that force them to oppress people and inflict suffering on others, changes occur and leaders like Rama and Krishna come into being. That is why in Gita God says that He appears again and again to bring back, even if through temporary destruction like the Kurukshetra War, order and equilibrium to sustain His Creation. This just happens in the normal course: God does not first make mistake of creating Duryodhona and then arrange for his destruction. Basudeb Sen ------------ Shri Vyasji wrote:Lord Rama / Krishna etc were "avataars" ! Avataar means "coming down" ; 'stooping from the level' ! When they became humans, naturally they had to behave as humans. Hence, keen observers, can find errors committed by them too. Saints and Sages call those errors to be "Leela" but still the fact remains, that no human life escapes error-free ! In Leela too, once they have taken birth as human, you ought to err. Though VERY VERY rarely, but Human life can be entirely sin free but it can not be entirely error free !If you read Ramcharitmanas, Gosvami Tulsidas is clear that Ram is not human and He is Bhagavan. The Supreme God cannot make error. It is our perception which sees error. The error seen by Mahalakshmi is relative ethic. It changes with people, time, place and circumstance. Mahalakshmi is complaining why Ram banished Sita? If He wouldn't have banished Sita, then another person would have complained that He was so attached to His wife that He did not do His duty as the King.Please understand the value system of Treta yuga and it won't help you to force Kali-yuga value system on Treta yuga.Avatar means "descend". The Supreme Bhagavan comes in whole totality as Ram or Krishna. Their body is considered sat cid anand and they are not like humans. Considering Ram or Krishna as human is not correct from perspective of bhakti.If you don't have faith over Ram or Krishna as the Supreme God, then it is ok. You can always worship Bhagavan with us as Paramatma. You can still have connection with Bhagavan as He is everywhere.Ram Ram,Gaurav Mittal ---------------------- From relative perspective, Krishna appears to make more errors than Ram.Queen Kunti says, "Yasoda took up a rope to bind You when You committed an offense, and Your perturbed eyes overflooded with tears, which washed the mascara from Your eyes. And You were afraid, though fear personified is afraid of You. This sight is bewildering to me." (Bhagavatam 1.8.31)Kunti is bewildered how the Supreme Bhagavan can be scared of mere woman of Gokul. Even fear God (devata of fear) is fearful of Krishna, then how can Krishna be fearful of Yasoda? Brahma was bewildered when he saw Krishna playing in the forest of Vrindavan. He tested Krishna and stole His friends and cows. We all know this story. Brahma doubted, "How can this mere cowherd boy be the Supreme God?"Ramcharitmas explains that the same doubt happened with Sati, Kakabhusandi, Garuda and even sage Bharadvaj.Sati saw Ram crying for Sita when Ravan kidnapped Sita. Sita wondered how can the Supreme Bhagavan weep for Sita. (Mahalaxmi, you will like Ram feeling pain of separation from Sita. In Kaliyug, you may like ignorant men who love their wife due to lust.) But from Vedic standard, crying for wife is result of ignorance. It is ignorance of not knowing oneself as beyond body. When one considers oneself as body, then one cries for his family, wife or children. Sati wonders that the Supreme Bhagavan should know this simple basics of spirituality. How can He cry of Sita? How can He be the worshipable Lord of Shiv? Even when Shivji explained, her doubt remained.Garuda went and saw Ram unconscious and helpless when struck by Nagpash (the snake weapon). He thought how can the Supreme Bhagavan lie like this? Why does Ram need me if He is Bhagavan?Kakabhusandi was playing with Ram and Ram wanted to catch him. Baby Ram could not catch him and Ram started crying. Kakabhusandi wondered how the Supreme Bhagavan be this child who cannot even catch me!What is the solution of this doubts! Tulsidasji gives the medicine. Actually Sivaji says in Ramayan that the medicine is continuous hearing of Ramayan for a long time. When one listens/reads Ramcharitmanas for a while, then these doubts will go away.We can talk and give all sorts of justification. But ultimately, there is one way to clear Mahalaxmi's doubts - read Ramcharitmanas with faith and see how your heart melts. You may have some doubts. Don't worry about them. Let them be. Just read Tulsikrita Ramayan. Tulsidasji says that even if in dreams Sivaji is merciful on him, then those who read this Ramayan with pure heart will surely attain bhakti of Ram.If you don't do that, there is no use any argument or justificaiton. If you have any questions or doubts while reading Ramcharitmanas, I can surely help you.Jai Sri Ram.Gaurav Mittal ------------------------- Dear Friends, Greetings! My take on this topic of Ramayana incident between Shri Rama & Mata Sita, about the authenticity of Shri Rama's action is not very convincing, especially on the grounds that Shri Rama is a Dharamveer. How can a Husband who raises the biggest war in the conquest of releasing her beloved wife can order her to be left in a jungle all alone especially when she is pregnant. How can he cheat & kill bali by attacking by hiding, dose not suit a Dharamveers action, especially if its meant to get support to release his wife, who has also not been given due respect & justice. The only character who is exiting & Dharamparayan to me is Lord Shri Hanuman. Rest all seemed to be Vikar Grasth if I can say soo. Irrespective of the stories that follow in various versions of Ramayana, my buddhi dose not allow me to accept few aspects of Ramayan. Its very obvious when Rama was shouting for help, & his voice was reaching to Laxmana & Maa Sita, Laxmana would also have called Ram & said "Brother is it you?Whats Happening there?Do you want me to be their to your rescue?".... It was as simple as that.. & the narration that, Maa Sita dramatising the whole scence & prompting Laxmana to go there.. is not suiting the logic. However, what I have been taught by various scholars is that one should not go on to the logic of stories but yes should take up all the great moralities & strengh of knowledge & Character & build upon one for one's ownself. Mangalam Bhavtu, Arun Suraj Dadhich. PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadaks, Om Sri Rama Sita Lakshmana Sametha Namastubyiam. Sri Rama to be born to Dasaratha and Mother (M) Sita to be daughter of Janaka is destined much earlier. When Sri Vishnu wanted to come to earth, there were hundreds of Devathas also wanted to come along with HIM. The Saanidh (Power) of Bhgavan Shiva was Sri Hamuman. Ravana and his son meganadh obtained certain boons which protects them from being killed. Ravana obtained boons that nothing kills him, forgetting out humans. That too a human with certain period observing Bramacharyiam (Not touching a lady) can kill Ravana. Similarly Meganath could be killed by a person who has not slept for years. Rest all you sadaks know. While Ravana was flying in his Viman, he saw a beautiful lady on Himalayas doing penance to attain Sri Maha Vishnu. Ravana tried to rape her and she disappeared herself creating Agni. Agni Bhagavan took her as his Daughter. When M Sita was abducted from her Kuttir after she crossed agni that came on the line drew by Lakshman, was Maya Sita, the daughter (Renuka devi) of Agni Bhagavan said above. While M Sita was crossing the agni SHE was taken in and replaced by agni and a replica of M Sita as she was with dress and jewels was replaced by Agni God`s daughter who actually suffered in Ravana custody. After all was over, M Sita asks Renuka what boon she can have. Renuka says that she wants to marry Sri Rama as she was all the while in Ravana custody was thinking of Sri Rama. Sri Rama refuses, but promises of marrying her in forth coming Avathar. M Sita uses a word when Lakshman refuses to go on hearing Sri Rama shouting for help. It was Maricha demon who created such shouting to make Lakshman leave the kutir. She says to Lakshman, `' Do you want to have me if Sri Rama dies- So you are adamant even after hearing Sri Rama cries". This is there in Srimath Ramayan. Result she was asked to enter into Agni after the war was over in Lanka, by the Agni prepared by Lakshman. Sri Ramachandra said in many sastras, that HE is embodiment of Dharma. Even Sri Bhagavan Siva says to HIS wife M Parvathi the same. Sri Rama never humiliated M Sita. Sadak Sri Mahalakshmi as woman felt the pains of happenings described in Srimath Ramayan. Sri Rama all the while in search of M Sita, she crying like anything. When Dobhi (Laundry man) spoke ill of M Sita, court was summoned by Sri Rama and the question of Dobhi was put forth. Not single person opened his mouth, including Vasista, that M Sita was chaste and Dhobi words to be discarded. This meant that there is doubts in them. Vasista after Sri Rama disappears, he realized his grave mistake of being silent and goes to penance several years in den, which is today called Vasista den near Rishikesh. Now Sage Valmiki asked Sri Vishnu much before that if he can have Maha Lakshme as his daughter. Boon granted. For that M Sita went to his ashram to deliver 2 kids. Please read carefully Srimath Ramayan of Valmiki. It says M Sita tapped the earth when Sri Rama came to Ashram, she went in and came with a golden seat say Sofa with some ladies of Virtue fanning her. There after Sri Rama and M Sita lived for hundreds of years. Sri Mahalakshmi, just for to refer this: There was years of famine and poverty after M Sita went to Valmiki Ashram. To make the Ayodhiya back to glory Sri Rama wanted to do Asvamedha yagna, where HIS wife was required to complete Yagna. Sri Rama`s mothers, gurus and so many requested Sri Rama to do another marriage. But Sri Rama refused bluntly. Alternate was looked into by Sastras. Sastra says a golden Sita (Swarna Sita) of life size can be made and put by side of Sri Rama during Yagna and that will complete the yagna successfully. Read care fully Madam. All the people who abused M Sita came forward in repentance to Sri Rama and offered their jewels with love to make Swarna Sita. But not that Dhobi. This same Dhobi born as Rasagan during Sri Krishna Avathar time. He was the one whom Sri Krishna asks for pretty cloths that was being taken to Kans. Rasagan refuses and monks at Sri Krishna. This Rasagan was given one vak on his head by Sri Krishna sending him to Patal lok. Bhagavan gave last chance for repentance to this Rasagan to whether he gives cloths. The Kubja (Disfigured lady gave Chandan) to Sri Krishna and became 18 years beautiful lady. She was none other than the hunch back lady who was cause to spread wrong information to Bharat mother during Sri Rama times to send to forest. Mother Sita was NEVER swallowed by earth, but she lived happily many years thereafter says Valmiki Ramayan. Sri Rama and M Sita had perfect understanding and showed how the world to the people, showed the principles of living. But one thing happening: The demi gods 33 crore was witness to all at that time. These Gods work on systematic soft ware that was input automatically whether right or wrong in the eyes of Bhagavan. These gods were created by Sri Bhramaji. So Sri Lanka who had disguised M Sita suffered there aware of truth, but have put in wrong signals in Sri Lanka, which is destined to be disturbed by war and calamity. Similarly for the people at that times mistaking M Sita in Ayodhiya, which place today remains disturbed even now. So Sri Mahalakshmi or whom so ever may be, please avoid thoughts of such misunderstanding that will work on you negatively, as thought are negative. Jai Sri Krishna B.Sathyanarayan ---- Namaste A gentle reminder that the Ramayan and Mahabharat were created and designed in such a manner as to present events and episodes that can encapsulate important behavioral traits and lifestyles. It may not be prudent to take everything literally and extrapolate. Example: if Sita did not like the deer, then Ram would not chase it and give Ravana the opportunity to kidnap Sita and then the Ramayana would end there and life would be different today. ....or in Mahabharata, if the king wasn't so fond of dice then he would have not been lured into gambling away this kingdom and the Mahabharata would have ended there and there would not have been an opportunity for Bhagavan to give us Gita through Arjuna. The authors of Ramayana and Mahabharata deliberately chose the scripts to proceed in that manner. We can engage in numerous "what ifs" and arrive at our own conclusions but surely all of us agree that the it was not guesswork or whims and fancies that were involved in the creation of our wonderful scriptures. We may be tempted to consider ourselves as Sita and Rama and we should always try to aspire to those ideals but at the same time we must be realistic to accept we are still mere human beings on the way to the path of Moksha. GITA is the handbook of life, a manual for all of us. Here are some extracts from an article on Sita, the silent power of suffering. All versions of the Ramayana are unanimous in reiterating Sita's fidelity and devotion towards Rama even in times of extreme adversity. For example, when the hero is preparing to go to exile in the forest all alone, she addresses him thus: "O son of an illustrious monarch, a father, a mother, a brother, a son or a daughter-in-law, all enjoy the fruit of their merits and receive what is their due. It is only the wife who actually shares the fortunes of her husband. When you depart this day for the dense forests which are difficult to penetrate, I shall walk ahead of you crushing under my feet, all the thorns that lie on your way." This is just one of the many expressions Sita used to convince Rama to take her with him. She considered it her privilege to share in his misfortune and suffered the consequent trials and tribulations in equal measure throughout their sojourn in the forest. However, being exiled in the forests was the least of her troubles. In fact, not even her kidnapping by Ravana could break Sita' immense will-power, constantly nourished as it was by the memory of her beloved Rama. Ravana too, fearing the accumulated merits of a chaste woman did not dare touch her; he nevertheless did try to make advances. What was Sita's reaction to his overtures? The great sage poet Valmiki (author of Ramayana), has captured her wretched condition vividly, through a series of inspired metaphors. For example, on viewing Ravana: "She seemed like a flame wreathed in smoke; a great fame which had dimmed; a lotus pool stripped of its blossoms; like Rohini pursued by Ketu (a metaphor for the eclipsed moon); a traditional text obscured by a dubious interpretation; a faith that has been betrayed; an order that has been flouted; a hope which has been frustrated and an understanding that has grown feeble." That Sita herself volunteered for the agni-pariksha speaks for the high volume of understanding between the couple since she understood Rama's wish without him explicitly stating it. Her action was not a surrender to the unreasonable whims of a husband rather a supreme act of defiance that challenged the aspersions cast on her, by the means of which she highlighted the superficiality of his doubts, so that even the gods had to materialize and point out the apparent fallacy in the indignity he had so unceremoniously cast on her. She emerges as a woman that even Agni - who has the power to reduce to ashes everything he touches - dare not touch or harm. Eminent Indian poetess Bina Agarwal has pulled no punches while narrating Sita's dual victimization: With your husband you chose exile:suffered privation, abduction,then the rejection -the chastity test on scorching flames,the victim twice victimized.Could those flames turn to flowerswithout searing the soul?they say you, devoted wife,questioned him notand let him have his way. More misfortune however was in store for Sita. No sooner had the couple settled down than rumors started in the capital questioning the propriety of having a queen who had spent a year in a villain's captivity, putting her chastity under doubt. Surprisingly for a clear-headed individual, Rama took these allegations to heart and asked his younger brother Lakshmana to banish Sita (this time alone), to the forests. Rama did this even though he was well aware that his wife was well advanced into the family way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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