Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Shree HariRam Ram"I am Swasth" - This saying is true (for one who is existent) or it is false(for one who is non-existent)" The word "Swasth" has been used by Swamiji toexpress "swa mein sthith" (to remain established in the Self) in "Manav MaatreKalyaan ke liye" on page 26.The question being raised is that to be "swasth" and to also be "I" (aham), howis this possible? Knowledgable sadhaks, please try to clarify.Vineet Sarvottam ---------------------------- NEW POSTING Hari OmI do not recollect Swamiji anywhere stating "I am svashtha" ! He described the meaning of "svashtha" but did not connect "I" with it ! Where did He connect "I" with it? On which page no of which book?"Aham" exists only in "Jeevas" (Bondaged souls) never in "Jeevanmuktas". (Liberated souls) !! There is no "Aham" in the eyes of Mahatmas or Paramatma ...it is only in the eyes of bondaged souls. It is another matter that 'I' (Aham) has two parts- the sentient part denotes 'mere existence' ..say white colour, the inert part a'mere assumed existence'..say black colour and Jeeva (chijjadgranthi)..affinity of sentient and inert...Purusha and Prakruti..say grey colour !! Any one who claims/strives to be/ believes ..."Aham Brahmasmi" ( I am God/Brahma)...cannot attain realization...has been said by Taat Shree (Swamiji) at dozens of places-NEVER ...NEVER ! He must throw away "I" in the end !!, If "I" is there..there is no Brahma (swashtha)...If Brahma is there, ..there is no 'I'- As simple as that!Pranaams to all sadhaks.Sarve Bhavantu Sukhinah.Narottam Dear Vineet, it is indeed a very good question.. Both thing can't be together.. it is like saying.. "I am in dream state" because once we can either be in dream state or in the worldly state... But if we may think more... there is one state in which both can exist and that is when I am just thinking of something with my full consicousness.. or to say I am making some plans or again dreaming of something.. in that I am free to move in and out of the plan making state... So basically to summarise I think if we can get control of our Dream state i.e. Go in and out of it with freewill then saying "Swa mein Stith" can still sound true.. and this may be only true for great yogis who have attained liberation and can freely go into and out of world.. Sai Ram Deepak ----------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Vineetji has initiated a good discussion on Swasth. In our routine way Swasth indicates overall well being emphasizing physical wellness!However, here, Swa means "I" and "sth" from "sthitah", means remaining established.Thus it means to remain established as one's True Self, or as I AM! But then how do I remain as such?Here, "I" is not meant to be aham-ego as we generally use it commonly to refer to myself, an individual. Upon investigation of its nature, realization happens that "I" refers to Pure Being(Conscious Existence-Atman-Self)! Now, as Atman-Self-Consciousness reflects in a particular body-mind, a mind based sense of "I/me" asserts itself as an individual entity independent of rest of Existence, its Source, Self, Atman! Subsequent realization happens that such individual is a false sense of "I" appearing in Self but taken as real, the cause of all non-well being! This Realization is being Swasth, establishing one as Atman, SELF, Complete Divinity and non-dual ONE. Overall well being implied in being Swasth comes upon in being established as Atman-Self. That which is existent is SELF, swasth always, and that which is non-existent is any thing superimposed on Swasth such as individual body, mind, objects of the world etc etc.To remove such ignorance of individuality is to be Swasth!Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------- Dear Sadaks,"I" with reference Athuman is Swasth. "I" & "Athuman" are One and the same Aham Bhramasmi. On the contrary "I" with reference to body is not possible as Swasth, as "I" the body perishable. In Bible "I" with reference to holy sprit (Athuman) has NO rebirth. In Geetha Bagavan says,"I am in everything but I am not that". Means Bagavan is the divine sprit in every living thing enabling the body to function, but HE is not the body (Form). But Sadaks, Can you tell why so.B.Sathyanarayan------------------------------- True.......................so true .................. not only improbable............. but impossible it is to be the 'aham' and ' the swa' in the same instant Now .......... yet.......... the Sage and the Seer speak of the swa and the aham to be not-two and Realisation of the Truth possible .... ah ! and Swami Ramsukhdasjee avers that ' to be sthit in the swa ' is swasth ah .............., how can he be wrong ????? thus begins the sadhna ............ of the sadhaka ........ with Faith and Trust in the words of the Guru ........ not to rest till the impossible becomes for him possible and true ........................... that which is intellectually 'impossible' becomes the 'state of being' , when in abeyance , the intellect is held .................... (by whom, pray ?) some call it Samadhi, dharna dhyan preceding ....... some say Meditation it is ............ the Way as well as the Goal ............... narinder calls it the Death of the Mind ............. that must 'happen' in this moment now , while body and mind in good health(swasth) abide ....................... the Upanishads lead us into understanding through a million words and one understanding of That, which is impossible to understand ............ and so the Upanishad speaks of the three states of Consciousness Waking, Dream and the Unconscious state of deep sleep Jagrat, Swapna, and Sushupti ............ Jagrat is Jagrat only because of the presence of the Swa Swapna is Swapna ............... only because of the presence of the Swa Sushupti is Sushupti only because Swa is present to witness .... the state of Consciousness abide in Itself , the Stillness , the state of rest rest from song and dance of the dream that is the Swapna , and the Jagrat too .............. ah !!!! do you see, dear sadhaka, can you see ...........? in the Jagrat, there is the Jagrat and the Swa In the Swapna, the Swapna and the Swa in Sushupti, the Sushupti and the Swa ............ ah ! in every cycle of 24 hours .......... the Swa is the witness the ever present deathless witness of the three changing states of Consciousness ................... and yet, narinder becomes not aware of the Swa , the unborn , deathless Swa ( Tat Twam Asi ! ) that is a witness to the changing states of Consciousness ,which is but the Play of the great Swa !!! to be healthy , you shall have to be 'Swa mein Sthit' dear sadhaka ........... that is True ...... and that is why, the Knowers did say .................. " Meditation is the way, dear one, Meditation is the way .... " whether Karma is your wont, whether Bhakti is your path, or Gyana your sway ........ Meditation shall bring you to your Goal, the Swa ............ Not-two-ness, One-ness of 'aham' and the Swa .......... when all other efforts of the 'aham' fail .... AUM narinder bhandari ===========================================GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to feedback at end of dicussion to bring closure and commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. RESPECT all Sadhaks. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be BRIEF, RELEVANT (stay with the subject being discussed only)5. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person6. All responses may not be posted.7. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.GITA TALK MODERATORSRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Shree HariRam Ram"I am Swasth" - This saying is true (for one who is existent) or it is false(for one who is non-existent)" The word "Swasth" has been used by Swamiji toexpress "swa mein sthith" (to remain established in the Self) in "Manav MaatreKalyaan ke liye" on page 26.The question being raised is that to be "swasth" and to also be "I" (aham), howis this possible? Knowledgable sadhaks, please try to clarify.Vineet Sarvottam ---------------------------- NEW POSTING Hari Om"Svashtha" means 'establishing in self' and not 'I am established in self'. "Self" itself is 'I' there. Where is the 'I' in the Self - all pervasive, universal, part of Paramatma ?"Sva" - Chetan, Amal, Sahaj Sukhraashi-plain Consciousness- Ishvar ansha,Avinaashi !! Part of God and God only and of no one else. Like in 'desires' where this distinction of 'necessity' and 'desire' confuses a sadhak...in "Sva" - too there are two parts of Ego. One that is with reference to world/inert (adopted by Jeeva) and another which represents 'mere, simple, plain, only..existence' or as Pratapji Bhatt so beautifully explained-Consciousness !! There is nothing wrong in this Consciousness or Chetana ! But the 'inert part' of ego is devil. There are 'me (s)' and 'mine (s)' in it with reference to 'world' ...that is 'I' ....that is stated in Scriptures as 'Aham' or 'Ego'....not the plain consciousness part. It is this portion of ego- worldly/inert portion- which is addressed by Scriptures ! Hence let there be no confusion in mere "I exist" and 'I am... Me...Mine...' . Remove the world out of me..mine..what remains behind is pure consciousness - SATTA MATRA - in the words of Swamiji Maharaj. Pranaams to all SadhaksSarve Bhavantu SukhinahNarottam --------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji has never said , "I am Swasth". I too have not said that Swamiji has said so. My question is whether the saying "I am swasth" or "I am not swasth" is true or not true? What is it true for? What is untrue for? kindly give concise and brief answer, and if this is understood then I can address the main question. The main question is - Swamiji has said that "you are established in 'swa' - 'Swasth'"( Manav maatre kalyaan ke liye pg 26). on reading this the question that arose is that in this what is the "you"? What is "Swa"? This "you" what relationship does it have with "Swa"? The answers to this, please give in simple language, whcih even an illiterate person can understand. Very thankful, Vineet Sarvottam ------------------------ Dear Ones,I think it is appropriate to mention that "I" as aham or ego, is non-existent, being the shadow of Self, or Atman.Ego arises in SELF-Atman as Aabhas only! Many times it disappears too!Ego refers to fleeting sense of "I exist independently of the world and world exist apart from me".It is not true and it is never experienced by us! Thus "I" points to the SELF, the Being of all separate beings! I suggest sadhaks can check their experience closely upon waking up from sleep as to what they feel in the first seconds? It will be invariably "I am" or just the feeling, not even a thought yet, of just being.Now as mind wakes up few seconds later, it associates "I" of pure existence(I am-ness) with the body. Mind carries the seed of ignorance which sprouts and the tree of world is created providing continuity in time-space for the life as we know to go on. This fact of our experience is missed and we think world was always there independently!This is not our experience though, it is what we conceive ourselves(body-mind stuff) and the world.The world we deal with exists in mind as conceptions only!"I" is experiential Reality, or Witnessing Presence, truly, and not aham-ego.With such Realization ultimately "witnessed world" also resolve into Witnessing Presence!This is Vasudeva Servam! Out comes the proclamation of Rishis of Upanishads: "Tat Tvam Asi" or "Aham Brahmasmi" or THAT THOU ART! This is, perhaps, what Narottamji says about what Swamiji cautions us regarding making such statements is because without Realizing the true nature of "I" one cannot say "Aham Brahmasmi". As a matter of fact, Realization is that Aham never existed, only Brahman is Existence-Consciousness!This is being Swastha!For Sathynarayanji I would say that "Only Bhagwaan IS as Existence absolute, the world is not as the world of objects". We can only say the presence of Atman(Bhagwaan as spirit) makes the individual body-mind functionbut ultimately alll bodies, all minds, and all that ever exist are HIS/HIM only! He being infinite cannot be residing in the finite, He can shine them just as Sun brings life to earth, but is never within!Soul, Jeeva, spirit, jada, chetan, perishable, imperishable, inert, etc are only mind's concepts to which it gets attached as if real, but beyond which everything, existence or its absence, IS called GOD!Namaskar.....Pratap Bhatt----------------------------- Dear Sadhakas The meaning of the word 'swasth' should be compared with the word 'swastha.' yeshu rathenam ---------------------- Hari OmI do not recollect Swamiji anywhere stating "I am svashtha" ! He described the meaning of "svashtha" but did not connect "I" with it ! Where did He connect "I" with it? On which page no of which book?"Aham" exists only in "Jeevas" (Bondaged souls) never in "Jeevanmuktas". (Liberated souls) !! There is no "Aham" in the eyes of Mahatmas or Paramatma ...it is only in the eyes of bondaged souls. It is another matter that 'I' (Aham) has two parts- the sentient part denotes 'mere existence' ..say white colour, the inert part a'mere assumed existence'..say black colour and Jeeva (chijjadgranthi)..affinity of sentient and inert...Purusha and Prakruti..say grey colour !! Any one who claims/strives to be/ believes ..."Aham Brahmasmi" ( I am God/Brahma)...cannot attain realization...has been said by Taat Shree (Swamiji) at dozens of places-NEVER ...NEVER ! He must throw away "I" in the end !!, If "I" is there..there is no Brahma (swashtha)...If Brahma is there, ..there is no 'I'- As simple as that!Pranaams to all sadhaks.Sarve Bhavantu Sukhinah.Narottam Dear Vineet, it is indeed a very good question.. Both thing can't be together.. it is like saying.. "I am in dream state" because once we can either be in dream state or in the worldly state... But if we may think more... there is one state in which both can exist and that is when I am just thinking of something with my full consicousness.. or to say I am making some plans or again dreaming of something.. in that I am free to move in and out of the plan making state... So basically to summarise I think if we can get control of our Dream state i.e. Go in and out of it with freewill then saying "Swa mein Stith" can still sound true.. and this may be only true for great yogis who have attained liberation and can freely go into and out of world.. Sai Ram Deepak ----------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Vineetji has initiated a good discussion on Swasth. In our routine way Swasth indicates overall well being emphasizing physical wellness!However, here, Swa means "I" and "sth" from "sthitah", means remaining established.Thus it means to remain established as one's True Self, or as I AM! But then how do I remain as such?Here, "I" is not meant to be aham-ego as we generally use it commonly to refer to myself, an individual. Upon investigation of its nature, realization happens that "I" refers to Pure Being(Conscious Existence-Atman-Self)! Now, as Atman-Self-Consciousness reflects in a particular body-mind, a mind based sense of "I/me" asserts itself as an individual entity independent of rest of Existence, its Source, Self, Atman! Subsequent realization happens that such individual is a false sense of "I" appearing in Self but taken as real, the cause of all non-well being! This Realization is being Swasth, establishing one as Atman, SELF, Complete Divinity and non-dual ONE. Overall well being implied in being Swasth comes upon in being established as Atman-Self. That which is existent is SELF, swasth always, and that which is non-existent is any thing superimposed on Swasth such as individual body, mind, objects of the world etc etc.To remove such ignorance of individuality is to be Swasth!Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------- Dear Sadaks,"I" with reference Athuman is Swasth. "I" & "Athuman" are One and the same Aham Bhramasmi. On the contrary "I" with reference to body is not possible as Swasth, as "I" the body perishable. In Bible "I" with reference to holy sprit (Athuman) has NO rebirth. In Geetha Bagavan says,"I am in everything but I am not that". Means Bagavan is the divine sprit in every living thing enabling the body to function, but HE is not the body (Form). But Sadaks, Can you tell why so.B.Sathyanarayan------------------------------- True.......................so true .................. not only improbable............. but impossible it is to be the 'aham' and ' the swa' in the same instant Now .......... yet.......... the Sage and the Seer speak of the swa and the aham to be not-two and Realisation of the Truth possible .... ah ! and Swami Ramsukhdasjee avers that ' to be sthit in the swa ' is swasth ah .............., how can he be wrong ????? thus begins the sadhna ............ of the sadhaka ........ with Faith and Trust in the words of the Guru ........ not to rest till the impossible becomes for him possible and true ........................... that which is intellectually 'impossible' becomes the 'state of being' , when in abeyance , the intellect is held .................... (by whom, pray ?) some call it Samadhi, dharna dhyan preceding ....... some say Meditation it is ............ the Way as well as the Goal ............... narinder calls it the Death of the Mind ............. that must 'happen' in this moment now , while body and mind in good health(swasth) abide ....................... the Upanishads lead us into understanding through a million words and one understanding of That, which is impossible to understand ............ and so the Upanishad speaks of the three states of Consciousness Waking, Dream and the Unconscious state of deep sleep Jagrat, Swapna, and Sushupti ............ Jagrat is Jagrat only because of the presence of the Swa Swapna is Swapna ............... only because of the presence of the Swa Sushupti is Sushupti only because Swa is present to witness .... the state of Consciousness abide in Itself , the Stillness , the state of rest rest from song and dance of the dream that is the Swapna , and the Jagrat too .............. ah !!!! do you see, dear sadhaka, can you see ...........? in the Jagrat, there is the Jagrat and the Swa In the Swapna, the Swapna and the Swa in Sushupti, the Sushupti and the Swa ............ ah ! in every cycle of 24 hours .......... the Swa is the witness the ever present deathless witness of the three changing states of Consciousness ................... and yet, narinder becomes not aware of the Swa , the unborn , deathless Swa ( Tat Twam Asi ! ) that is a witness to the changing states of Consciousness ,which is but the Play of the great Swa !!! to be healthy , you shall have to be 'Swa mein Sthit' dear sadhaka ........... that is True ...... and that is why, the Knowers did say .................. " Meditation is the way, dear one, Meditation is the way .... " whether Karma is your wont, whether Bhakti is your path, or Gyana your sway ........ Meditation shall bring you to your Goal, the Swa ............ Not-two-ness, One-ness of 'aham' and the Swa .......... when all other efforts of the 'aham' fail .... AUM narinder bhandari ===========================================GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to feedback at end of dicussion to bring closure and commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. RESPECT all Sadhaks. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be BRIEF, RELEVANT (stay with the subject being discussed only)5. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person6. All responses may not be posted.7. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.GITA TALK MODERATORSRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Shree HariRam Ram"I am Swasth" - This saying is true (for one who is existent) or it is false(for one who is non-existent)" The word "Swasth" has been used by Swamiji toexpress "swa mein sthith" (to remain established in the Self) in "Manav MaatreKalyaan ke liye" on page 26.The question being raised is that to be "swasth" and to also be "I" (aham), howis this possible? Knowledgable sadhaks, please try to clarify.Vineet Sarvottam ---------------------------- NEW POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Shri Narottamji ! Shri Pratap Bhattji ! Shri Yeshu Rathenaam ji! Shri Dubeshji, Shri Sathyanarayana ji! Shri Narinder Bhandariji ! and to all merciful sadhaks, my Pranaam! Due to the English language and the knowledge of the supreme spirit being of a high level, I am unable to understand. However I appreciate the effort you all have taken. For that I am thankful. Vineet Sarvottam ------- -Shree Hari-Namaste!Re. Brother Narottam's post, and especially the sentence: '"Svashtha" means 'establishing in self' and not 'I am established in self'. "Self" itself is 'I' there. Where is the 'I' in the Self - all pervasive, universal, part of Paramatma ?'Drew my attention to a quote of Swamiji's: .....In fact, it is an error to consider unity of 'Jeeva' with 'Brahma'. This is unity was/is/will/can never be there. Because there is no 'Jeevahood' in 'Brahma' and no 'Brahmahood' in 'Jeeva' ! Therefore instead of trying to bring unity between both; effort should be made to eliminate 'Jeevahood' (Aham)! After elimination of 'aham' (ego) what remains behind is Brahma ! This is what is called 'Vasudev Sarvam' in Gita !Also I happen to be reading 'The Essence of YOGAVAASISHTHA', and was reading chapter 22, and pasted in a few chapters that caught my eye: ' 37-38. Having resolved that everything is Brahman (or the Supreme Spirit), let one practise the religious vow (or austerity) of worship of the eternal Self. In this mode of worship of the Self, whatever auspicious materials are prescribed (for worship in general), these are conceived solely by the sentiment of tranquility38-40. The Self is not comprehended (or perceived) by scriptural precepts; nor by the words of the Guru (or spiritual guide). It is perceived by itself on account of one's knowledge (or awareness) spontaneously. (However), the Self is not perceived without the teachings of the spiritual guide and scriptural precepts. The existence of the combination of these two alone is the manifester of the knowledge of one's own Self.Note: The import of the above verses is that scriptures and the Guru can only show the way. It is the spiritual aspirant who has to arrive at enlightenment by his own investigation and meditation.40-41. One who ever performs thus the worship of the Deity, absorbed in it, he attains to that supreme abode where (even) people like us are servants.41-42. Having spoken thus, that blue-necked (Lord Siva) became invisible in a moment. From that time onwards till now, I remain performing the worship of the Self by that very method, free from perplexity.'Thank you Pratapji Bhatt for an article of simple brilliance!Om...Shanti...Mike. (K)------------------------------- Dear Ones, Namaste!My humble attempt to give simple answers to Vineetji's question:Q: Swamiji saysyou are established in Swa - Swasth", what is "you", what is "Swa"? and what is their relationship?A: "you" is really Self(Conscious Being), Undivided existence, which seems to have identified with body considering himself limited by it. "Swa" is his true nature, that of Being Consciousness! To wake up such ignorance in one, it is reminded that "hey, you are not what you think you are, you are not bound by any limitations! You are yourself Limitless Being- Atman. "Swa" is your true nature and you are already established as such! You just have to Realize/regain your memory(Gita) you are Swasth, established in your true nature!It is like saying "I cannot live with myself anymore". What is the relationship here of "I" who cannot live with "myself"? Both are one and the same! Same way "you" and "Swa" in this context are one and the same! Swamiji happens to point it out to wake us up to our true nature!Language necessitates such apparent dualistic way to communicate the TRUTH which is Non-Dual!Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt-------------- Hari Om'I'... so long as it is without 'worldly me/mine' and without worldly likings/dislikings - is the sentient part of ego and may continue with liberated souls also. This sentient part in fact represents pure, simple EXISTENCE/CONSCIOUSNESS. There the distinction between SELF and I is not at all present. But the moment affinity with 'world/nature/inert' takes place...in other words Jeevahood comes...'I' gets associated with body/things....activity/matter..Prakruti (Yayedam dharyate jagat..7:4/5) and that 'I' /Aham/Ego requires change/purification/elimination ! THUS, In liberated souls there is no 'I'.. no 'you'..no 'this'..no 'that'..no 'he'..no'she'..no 'it'...! The statement 'I am swastha' is not representative of a liberated soul. There 'I' retains its individuality as distinct from 'self '( swa ) ! With 'Swa'- there is no relationship of I/You/This/That/He/She etc !!I don't see any difference between ' I am swastha' and 'I am Brahma' ..because 'Swa' is essentially 'Brahma' !! No one can ever be a more simple explainer of spirituality than Param Shraddheya Swamiji Maharaj Himself. He has left behind a huge treasure of books and discourses. Illiterates can benefit more by hearing His pravachans than reading His books ( BG 13: 25- shrutvanebhya upaasate). I have not come across a more simple explainer of even the toughest to understand terms etc of spirituality than Swamiji Himself. One should read/hear Him in a surrendered mode rather than presuming ' I know it all' !!Pranaams to all Sadhaks. Sarve Bhavantu SukhinahNarottam Jai Shri Hari,Both are correct and incorrect. It depends how the "I" is defined. Goswami TulasidasJi says that there are 3 kinds (1: Ordinary/Wordly 2: Saadhak/Aspirant 3: Siddha/Realized) of beings/jeevas in this world ("VISHHAYI SAADHAK SIDDHAA SAYAANE | TRIVIDHA JEEVA JAG VEDA BAKHAANE"-Maanas). For the "ordinary/wordly beings": The "I" refers to the body (i.e. ASAT) which always changes. "I am swastha" or "I am not swastha" both are correct from their perspectives but in reality they are wrong. Their meaning of "swastha" is the very common word "healthy". For the "saadhak/aspirant": The "I" contains both the component (i.e. SAT and ASAT) though it assumes it is only "SAT" (e.g. AHAM BRAMHAASMI, TATTVAMASI etc.) during his saadhanaa. "I am swastha" or "I am not swastha" both are incorrect as "I" is not yet totally changed to "SAT". For the "siddha /realized one": There is no separate identity like "I" so there is no such thing like "I am Swastha". There is only "SWASTHA" (i.e. Self is established in self). Similar things are told by BhagavaanJi about Realized/Sthitapragya/Siddha/Yogi/GuNaaTeeta at various places in GitaJi.... AATMANI EVA AATMANAA TUSHTAH STHITIPRAGYASTADOCHYATE - 2/55... AATMANI EVA CHA SANTUSHTA TASYA KAARYAM NA VIDYATE - 3/17YADAA VINIYATAM CHITTAM AATMANI EVA AVATISHTHATE .... - 6/18...YATRA CHA EVA AATMANAA AATMAANAM PASHYANI AATMI TUSHYATI - 6/20SAMDUKHASUKHAH SWASTHAH ... - 14/24.May God bless us !Niteesh DubeyNiteesh Dubey------- The main question is - Swamiji has said that "you are established in 'swa' - 'Swasth'"( Manav maatre kalyaan ke liye pg 26). on reading this the question that arose is that in this what is the "you"? What is "Swa"? This "you" what relationship does it have with "Swa"? The answers to this, please give in simple language, whcih even an illiterate person can understand. Simple language ................. illiterate person .................. understanding ..........ah, my friends .................! if you are truly illiterate ..................... and yearning to understand .............. if, you are simple ................ one phrase is enough ............. and Realisation dawns of Bliss that does not wax and vane ..................... Love that waxes not nor vanes ............... realisation dawns of Love that is God , or, God that is Love , say what you will ......ah ! But lifetimes of concepts and conditionings of Mind that we call Education, Evolution, Literacy ( not your 'Doing'.................. that too is God's Play !! ) have led us to be Aswasth ............ de-established from Self .... The process of Sadhna is only the de-conditioning of Mind ............ returning Home ............ to discover or realise that the 'I' is itself the Swa ............ aham and Swa , Not-Two , Not-Two, Not-Two.................ah ! And,the knowers of Truth have averred ........" Nobody can skip his Sadhna ............ no-one !! " If , the Mind accepts the Truth of this statement of the Knowers ............. the aham shall take to the Sadhna at once , whatever point it is at ............... and soon realise , step by step, that there was no need for the Sadhna .......... you were already that ! BUT, ah, there is a Catch 22 , here ! This happens , only after you have walked the path ............... the Path of the Sadhak True ..... the Path, sharp like the Razor's Edge ........................ ah ! Free yourself from the love of words, discussions, the complications of This and That and, in a Trice, realise ........................... as so many of the enlightened sadhak here have been saying .................. " There is No Sadhna needed .. just accept, you are God's and God is yours , nothing else is needed !!!! " For, that indeed is true ! May Krishna make it true for you ........... may Natkhat smile on you ! BUT, dear friends .................... a question for you ................... " What will happen to this Forum, if that becomes True ?? ah ....!!!!! " The Last Laugh .................. is always Krishna's !!!! ................... The Natkhat !!!!! Aum narinder bhandari -------------------------- Hari Om"Svashtha" means 'establishing in self' and not 'I am established in self'. "Self" itself is 'I' there. Where is the 'I' in the Self - all pervasive, universal, part of Paramatma ?"Sva" - Chetan, Amal, Sahaj Sukhraashi-plain Consciousness- Ishvar ansha,Avinaashi !! Part of God and God only and of no one else. Like in 'desires' where this distinction of 'necessity' and 'desire' confuses a sadhak...in "Sva" - too there are two parts of Ego. One that is with reference to world/inert (adopted by Jeeva) and another which represents 'mere, simple, plain, only..existence' or as Pratapji Bhatt so beautifully explained-Consciousness !! There is nothing wrong in this Consciousness or Chetana ! But the 'inert part' of ego is devil. There are 'me (s)' and 'mine (s)' in it with reference to 'world' ...that is 'I' ....that is stated in Scriptures as 'Aham' or 'Ego'....not the plain consciousness part. It is this portion of ego- worldly/inert portion- which is addressed by Scriptures ! Hence let there be no confusion in mere "I exist" and 'I am... Me...Mine...' . Remove the world out of me..mine..what remains behind is pure consciousness - SATTA MATRA - in the words of Swamiji Maharaj. Pranaams to all SadhaksSarve Bhavantu SukhinahNarottam --------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji has never said , "I am Swasth". I too have not said that Swamiji has said so. My question is whether the saying "I am swasth" or "I am not swasth" is true or not true? What is it true for? What is untrue for? kindly give concise and brief answer, and if this is understood then I can address the main question. The main question is - Swamiji has said that "you are established in 'swa' - 'Swasth'"( Manav maatre kalyaan ke liye pg 26). on reading this the question that arose is that in this what is the "you"? What is "Swa"? This "you" what relationship does it have with "Swa"? The answers to this, please give in simple language, whcih even an illiterate person can understand. Very thankful, Vineet Sarvottam ------------------------ Dear Ones,I think it is appropriate to mention that "I" as aham or ego, is non-existent, being the shadow of Self, or Atman.Ego arises in SELF-Atman as Aabhas only! Many times it disappears too!Ego refers to fleeting sense of "I exist independently of the world and world exist apart from me".It is not true and it is never experienced by us! Thus "I" points to the SELF, the Being of all separate beings! I suggest sadhaks can check their experience closely upon waking up from sleep as to what they feel in the first seconds? It will be invariably "I am" or just the feeling, not even a thought yet, of just being.Now as mind wakes up few seconds later, it associates "I" of pure existence(I am-ness) with the body. Mind carries the seed of ignorance which sprouts and the tree of world is created providing continuity in time-space for the life as we know to go on. This fact of our experience is missed and we think world was always there independently!This is not our experience though, it is what we conceive ourselves(body-mind stuff) and the world.The world we deal with exists in mind as conceptions only!"I" is experiential Reality, or Witnessing Presence, truly, and not aham-ego.With such Realization ultimately "witnessed world" also resolve into Witnessing Presence!This is Vasudeva Servam! Out comes the proclamation of Rishis of Upanishads: "Tat Tvam Asi" or "Aham Brahmasmi" or THAT THOU ART! This is, perhaps, what Narottamji says about what Swamiji cautions us regarding making such statements is because without Realizing the true nature of "I" one cannot say "Aham Brahmasmi". As a matter of fact, Realization is that Aham never existed, only Brahman is Existence-Consciousness!This is being Swastha!For Sathynarayanji I would say that "Only Bhagwaan IS as Existence absolute, the world is not as the world of objects". We can only say the presence of Atman(Bhagwaan as spirit) makes the individual body-mind functionbut ultimately alll bodies, all minds, and all that ever exist are HIS/HIM only! He being infinite cannot be residing in the finite, He can shine them just as Sun brings life to earth, but is never within!Soul, Jeeva, spirit, jada, chetan, perishable, imperishable, inert, etc are only mind's concepts to which it gets attached as if real, but beyond which everything, existence or its absence, IS called GOD!Namaskar.....Pratap Bhatt----------------------------- Dear Sadhakas The meaning of the word 'swasth' should be compared with the word 'swastha.' yeshu rathenam ---------------------- Hari OmI do not recollect Swamiji anywhere stating "I am svashtha" ! He described the meaning of "svashtha" but did not connect "I" with it ! Where did He connect "I" with it? On which page no of which book?"Aham" exists only in "Jeevas" (Bondaged souls) never in "Jeevanmuktas". (Liberated souls) !! There is no "Aham" in the eyes of Mahatmas or Paramatma ...it is only in the eyes of bondaged souls. It is another matter that 'I' (Aham) has two parts- the sentient part denotes 'mere existence' ..say white colour, the inert part a'mere assumed existence'..say black colour and Jeeva (chijjadgranthi)..affinity of sentient and inert...Purusha and Prakruti..say grey colour !! Any one who claims/strives to be/ believes ..."Aham Brahmasmi" ( I am God/Brahma)...cannot attain realization...has been said by Taat Shree (Swamiji) at dozens of places-NEVER ...NEVER ! He must throw away "I" in the end !!, If "I" is there..there is no Brahma (swashtha)...If Brahma is there, ..there is no 'I'- As simple as that!Pranaams to all sadhaks.Sarve Bhavantu Sukhinah.Narottam Dear Vineet, it is indeed a very good question.. Both thing can't be together.. it is like saying.. "I am in dream state" because once we can either be in dream state or in the worldly state... But if we may think more... there is one state in which both can exist and that is when I am just thinking of something with my full consicousness.. or to say I am making some plans or again dreaming of something.. in that I am free to move in and out of the plan making state... So basically to summarise I think if we can get control of our Dream state i.e. Go in and out of it with freewill then saying "Swa mein Stith" can still sound true.. and this may be only true for great yogis who have attained liberation and can freely go into and out of world.. Sai Ram Deepak ----------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Vineetji has initiated a good discussion on Swasth. In our routine way Swasth indicates overall well being emphasizing physical wellness!However, here, Swa means "I" and "sth" from "sthitah", means remaining established.Thus it means to remain established as one's True Self, or as I AM! But then how do I remain as such?Here, "I" is not meant to be aham-ego as we generally use it commonly to refer to myself, an individual. Upon investigation of its nature, realization happens that "I" refers to Pure Being(Conscious Existence-Atman-Self)! Now, as Atman-Self-Consciousness reflects in a particular body-mind, a mind based sense of "I/me" asserts itself as an individual entity independent of rest of Existence, its Source, Self, Atman! Subsequent realization happens that such individual is a false sense of "I" appearing in Self but taken as real, the cause of all non-well being! This Realization is being Swasth, establishing one as Atman, SELF, Complete Divinity and non-dual ONE. Overall well being implied in being Swasth comes upon in being established as Atman-Self. That which is existent is SELF, swasth always, and that which is non-existent is any thing superimposed on Swasth such as individual body, mind, objects of the world etc etc.To remove such ignorance of individuality is to be Swasth!Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------- Dear Sadaks,"I" with reference Athuman is Swasth. "I" & "Athuman" are One and the same Aham Bhramasmi. On the contrary "I" with reference to body is not possible as Swasth, as "I" the body perishable. In Bible "I" with reference to holy sprit (Athuman) has NO rebirth. In Geetha Bagavan says,"I am in everything but I am not that". Means Bagavan is the divine sprit in every living thing enabling the body to function, but HE is not the body (Form). But Sadaks, Can you tell why so.B.Sathyanarayan------------------------------- True.......................so true .................. not only improbable............. but impossible it is to be the 'aham' and ' the swa' in the same instant Now .......... yet.......... the Sage and the Seer speak of the swa and the aham to be not-two and Realisation of the Truth possible .... ah ! and Swami Ramsukhdasjee avers that ' to be sthit in the swa ' is swasth ah .............., how can he be wrong ????? thus begins the sadhna ............ of the sadhaka ........ with Faith and Trust in the words of the Guru ........ not to rest till the impossible becomes for him possible and true ........................... that which is intellectually 'impossible' becomes the 'state of being' , when in abeyance , the intellect is held .................... (by whom, pray ?) some call it Samadhi, dharna dhyan preceding ....... some say Meditation it is ............ the Way as well as the Goal ............... narinder calls it the Death of the Mind ............. that must 'happen' in this moment now , while body and mind in good health(swasth) abide ....................... the Upanishads lead us into understanding through a million words and one understanding of That, which is impossible to understand ............ and so the Upanishad speaks of the three states of Consciousness Waking, Dream and the Unconscious state of deep sleep Jagrat, Swapna, and Sushupti ............ Jagrat is Jagrat only because of the presence of the Swa Swapna is Swapna ............... only because of the presence of the Swa Sushupti is Sushupti only because Swa is present to witness .... the state of Consciousness abide in Itself , the Stillness , the state of rest rest from song and dance of the dream that is the Swapna , and the Jagrat too .............. ah !!!! do you see, dear sadhaka, can you see ...........? in the Jagrat, there is the Jagrat and the Swa In the Swapna, the Swapna and the Swa in Sushupti, the Sushupti and the Swa ............ ah ! in every cycle of 24 hours .......... the Swa is the witness the ever present deathless witness of the three changing states of Consciousness ................... and yet, narinder becomes not aware of the Swa , the unborn , deathless Swa ( Tat Twam Asi ! ) that is a witness to the changing states of Consciousness ,which is but the Play of the great Swa !!! to be healthy , you shall have to be 'Swa mein Sthit' dear sadhaka ........... that is True ...... and that is why, the Knowers did say .................. " Meditation is the way, dear one, Meditation is the way .... " whether Karma is your wont, whether Bhakti is your path, or Gyana your sway ........ Meditation shall bring you to your Goal, the Swa ............ Not-two-ness, One-ness of 'aham' and the Swa .......... when all other efforts of the 'aham' fail .... AUM narinder bhandari ===========================================GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to feedback at end of dicussion to bring closure and commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. RESPECT all Sadhaks. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be BRIEF, RELEVANT (stay with the subject being discussed only)5. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person6. All responses may not be posted.7. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.GITA TALK MODERATORSRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Shree HariRam Ram"I am Swasth" - This saying is true (for one who is existent) or it is false(for one who is non-existent)" The word "Swasth" has been used by Swamiji toexpress "swa mein sthith" (to remain established in the Self) in "Manav MaatreKalyaan ke liye" on page 26.The question being raised is that to be "swasth" and to also be "I" (aham), howis this possible? Knowledgable sadhaks, please try to clarify.Vineet Sarvottam ---------------------------- NEW POSTING Jai Shri Hari,Dear Krishna Samudrala ji, In the current context, the meaning of "swastha" is "established in self". The word "swastha" has occurred only once in GitaJi (14/24) to describe the behavior of a guNaateeta. Our great Saints and Aachaaryaas (e.g. Sri ShankaraacharyaJi, Shri RamanujaachaaryaJi, Shri VallabhaachaaryaJi, Shri MadhusudanaachaaryaJi, Swami ShivaanadJi, Swami RamsukhadasJi and many others) mean the same (i.e. "established in self") for the word "swastha".May God Bless us all!Niteesh Dubey -------------------- Hari Om"I am swastha"- this is an acceptance / assumption by intellect and hence 'karan saapeksha' (with shelter of tools, body..) "I am not, Swa only is"- this is acceptance/assumption by SELF...and hence is 'karan nirapeksha' ( without shelter of any tools, body..) ! Thus you are not positioned/established in SENTIENT viz Self so long as I (Inert) is there with it. It is only upon negation and removal of I - that you get positioned/established in SENTIENT "SWA" !!Thus... "Doosaro Na Koi" said Mirabaai with "Mere to Girdhar Gopal" ! You can't get positioned in "sentient" till you get rid of "inert"...How can you ?To the 'sentient' element ..Self/Paramatma... You can never know by affirmation (vidhi) , you can only know by 'negation' (nishedha) ! Reason: It is ever and already received. In the experience of sentient only 'assumed affinity' with the inert is obstacle. You 'discover' what you have already got...you 'create' what you have not already got. In 'discovery' .. Prohibition/negation works ! In 'creation' affirmation works !!Therefore you get positioned in 'Swa' by renunciation (tyaag) of inert/asat . After total negation/renunciation of all .... What remains behind is Self/Paramatma.Pranaams to all sadhaks.Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.Narottam -------- Swastha and Swaasthya Swaasthya is most often referred to the health - an existential state of no disease and hence no misery for any individual. The only state of absolute absence of disease or misery is in being oneself - Swastha. The seed of all the diseases is the individuality one has cultivated over lives in an attempt to disconnect with the world as an independent entity. The futility in the attempt is very clear in the absolute dependence we develop on all the "independent" entities around to acquire and safegaurd our "independent" status. The true Aswaasthya (disease) we suffer from is in being not ourselves - being not truthful to be The Life that we truly are; but, being frenzy to have "a life" of our own. "Swastha" is the one who is established in everything as ONE SELF and in whom everything is established as oneself. One imbibes notions of desires and fears due to a "limited" existence generated within the notions of ownership and identity. One is forced to perceive the world as fragmented cluster of entities so that one gains room to manipulate the same to promote and safegaurd the notions of indentity and ownership. It is impossible to maintain the fragments of the world since it is ONE with absolutely no fracture as such! How long could one keep the water separated by a line? ... air separated by a plane? ... space separated by an object? One suffers being infected with such an impossible wish to maintain fragments in a monolithic existence! The more one toils to achieve the impossible, the more one suffers the burden of living in futility. Yastu sarvaaNi bhootaani aatmanyevaanupashyati | Sarvabhootasya chaatmaanam tato na vijugupsate || One who realizes the very IS-NESS that is the basis for one's very existence as THE ONE that is THE BASIS for everything around will realize that the very presence of any individual is the same as that of the whole universe as such. When the world ceases to exist as a cluster of distinct objects external to the individual, how can there be any room left for one to seek desires or fears that are rooted in the very notion of objects anymore? Yasmin sarvaaNi bhootaani aatmaivaabhoodvijaanatah | Tatra ko mohah kah shokah ekatvamanupashyatah || When everything is realized to be THE ONE that is their very PRESENCE, one will realize that the very individual is also established within THE ONE as its very PRESENCE, The Self - the UNIVERSAL PRESENCE is absolutely established in one's appreciation. When the individual subject ceases to exist anymore, who is left to be deluded with the desires and fears anymore? Swaasthya is the acute awareness of such universal presence. Swastha is the one in whom such universal awareness is firmly established. Yastvaatmaratireva syaat aatmatriptashcha maanavah | Aatmanyeva tu santriptah tasya kaaryam na vidyate || A mindful individual who ceases to seek pleasures around and truthfully seeks the Absolute Bliss within, will remain in the very Absolute Peace eternally. No miseries can haunt one who is absolutely immersed in The Contentment within oneself as no purpose is left to be attained anymore for such a mindful soul. Naiva tasya kritenaartho naakriteneha kashchana | Na chaasya sarvabhuteshu kashchidarthavyapaashrayah || All the desires and fears are obliterated in the presence of the one who ceases to see anything but THE SELF everywhere since the very doing looses its meaning completely - no purpose remains within and no expectaions hover around; no anticipation from the objects remains and hence no dependence on the world. When the very subjectivity that pops the mind into actions is dropped completely, what purpose is left to be attained anymore for such a mind-ful presence? When the very objectivity that fills the mind with restlessness is dispatched forever, what compulsions of living and survival can remain anymore in such a mind-less presence? One who is left with nothing to be sought or attained is The Swastha. The Absolute Peace established in The Swastha is The Swaasthya, the focal point of all our spiritual scriptures. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- Swastha and Swaasthya - Nrisimhaanubhooti HiraNyakashipu meditated upon the modes of life that Lord NarayaNa could take in order to make himself invincible to the laws of life. He fathomed all possible modes that NarayaNa could operate to absorb the life away from him and pursuaded The Creator to grant him boon to be invincible to all the modes of death he could think of. Yet ... fear bothered him ... the same intellect kept reminding him of the misterous ways NarayaNa operated to absorb the life He provided every individual with ... HiraNya was paranoid of being "cheated" by the life ... He commanded abolition of Lord NarayaNa from his territory ... as if he could ... His son Prahlada knew the omniscience of Lord NarayaNa and remained one with the life force eternally with an absolute appreciation of the variant as well as the constant nature of The Life that he had nothing left to be afraid of. His appreciation of The Omniscience was so perfectly acute and accurate that he could not see anything other than Lord NarayaNa anywhere and everywhere. The annoyed father was puzzled … how could his son be so fearless even without a boon when himself was eternally fearful in spite of the wonderful boon he had?! He subjected the son to all possible terrible threats to one's life … the seemingly powerless son proved to be invincible to all fears while the knowingly powerful emperor was so vulnerable to the fear of death! The confused father commands the son to explain. The noble son explained the omniscience … nothing could be That and yet That is everything … That is the origin of all, basis for all, and destiny for all while nothing could be origin, basis or destiny for That … nothing could be whatever it is without That and yet nothing could be whaever That is … nothing can remain different from That and yet That cannot be perceived within anything … nothing can bind That while That is the only binding factor that keeps integrity in creation from an atom to a galaxy ... nothing can enclose That while nothing can remain not enclosed by That ... Nothing can remain within That while That remains within everything ... Nothing can command That while That is the only command with which every particle of the universe works with and works for ... Just words and words ... the father could not see any room to manipulate The Truth to extend and enforce his hegemony! The frustrated father shouts to show Him at once so that he can command Him to obey him at once and once for all ... The Fellow promptly appears … Lord Nrisimha appears ... but so unfathomably terrific and terrible … HiraNya is dragged onto His lap to be ripped apart ... The father feels dragged onto His lap and slain … the son remains happily on His lap as ever. The Lap is certainty … Swasthya is certainty … everything being established with THAT is certainty … Awareness of the same depends … Lack of awareness of the same determines the perceived Aswaasthya in oneself ... all the notions of Aswaasthya with which one insists to live with are eventually dragged to the altar, the lap, of Lord Nrisimha to be slain away ... Nrisimha is THE CERTAINTY ... Prahladas who appreciate THAT CERTAINTY are also certain, Swasthas ... HiraNyas who cannot fathom, appreciate and accept The Nrisimha in life would remain Aswasthas, would fight to live in the denial of That Certainty ... yet they are what they are ONLY DUE TO THAT CERTAINTY ... The omni-compassionate Lord Nrisimha absorbs His protestees such as HiraNyas as much as His devotees such as Prahlada ... A violent ego such as HiraNyakashipu also remains and attains The Swaasthya … but, with a terrible notion of being slain by the life … consumed by the fantasy of notions … angered, frustrated, nervously, … A gentle soul such as Prahlada also remains and attains The Swaasthya … but, with an absolute awareness of being The Life as such … leaving no room for notional distractions … happily, peacefully, confidently, … Aswaasthya is notional … Swaasthya is real … There is no existence without Swaasthya … everything is Swastha as such … should I be complacent with The Reality or be terrified with the same is the question I need to resolve … that is where precisely we need help from the holy scriptures endowed upon us to understand The Reality and from the life we are blessed with to experience The Reality ... AS IS … Respects. Naga Narayana ------------------------- The discussion on 'Meditation' emerging out of postings of Brother Mike and Narinderji makes me reproduce the following beautiful summary by Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj. Hope this helps both of them at 'root level' and the following brief note by Swamiji acts for them as MIRROR/YARDSTICK of their present sadhana state : Thank you, Shashikala jee ................. these are the most heart-warming words that narinder has read after a long time ................ and, the statement is the essence of the Path for all the sadhaks ................. Self realisation ( as the very expression implies ) .......... is the game of the self ........... the choosing of the Self by the self for the self ............. .............the self and the Self , apparently playing in two-ness, are in reality not-two..................... till the self realises the not-twoness ( becomes sthit in Swa ) ............ self evaluation is the most important aspect of the Way ................ and all the realised ones have spoken for humanity ..................... for whatever state of evolution it is ........ and for the earnest seeker ............... just as the words of Swami Ramsukhdasjee quoted by you here ........ words, that are for aLL EARNEST SEEKERS in varying states of realising ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, SO..................... the words of shasjikala jee acquire importance ............ the seeker has to be able to evaluate his present state and accept it ..... then , move forward ........... step by step....................... this itself is not easy for the Mind ........... and that is why the seeker may often need the Guru's help .................. it is self-realising game all the Way................. the Game that the self keeps playing .............. playing and playing, step by step walking of the Path ............ till the desire for the Self or God is relaised ........... till the desire for desireless-ness ( the Highest desire possible) too gets dropped ................. and DESIRELESSNESS ( severance with the tools) happens !!! and as Swami Ramsukhdasjee says : Thus although in the above Karan Saapeksha Sadhan there is predominance of 'activity' but since the goal of sadhak was Realisation. ..in the end result, his connection with TOOLS (karan) gets totally severed and he experiences/ realises Paramatma. thank you so very much Shashikala jee, for a very enlightening Quote from Swami jee ........... AUM narinder bhandari ------------------------------- Hari OmThe 'I' referred by Dubeyji and by Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj in 'AS ABHIMAAN.....' is representative of sentient Self (I exist- satta matra- consciousness) and is present in all living beings including humans even if a human being is liberated and realized. It is an independent prorogative of SELF to remain independent as part of God and only God, independent of inert, and keep enjoying the ANANT ANANDA- Dine Dine Navam Navam !! As explained by me earlier this 'I' is not inert 'ego' needing change (by Bhakti Yoga) or needing purification (by Karma Yoga) or needing elimination (by Jnana Yoga) !! This ego ( I ) is SELF itself. Salutations to the knowledge and clarity of concepts of Neetishji Dubey. Amazing precision. The message of ST Koti Hari is also equally solid- what to talk of Brother Mike Keenor. Look at the benefits of turning towards the God.....Divine Sadhaks. Brother Mike has meticulously quotes Swamiji (he must be having a meticulous computer file of all GT Group and of all Sadhak Messages from Divine Moderators), frequently quotes Sadhak Sanjeevani, Yoga Vashishtha etc and expresses pure wisdom and bliss for all of us. Indeed... Divine Sadhaks.. When you turn towards God...it becomes duty of all around you to support your cause. God Himself comes running, if He has no medium for such Sadhaks. It is declaration of God in Gitaji- 9:22 !! I have heard elders saying: God first searches and appoints for a medium to meet necessities of sadhaks ..and if the sadhak is at a place from which upto 14 koshas - 28 kms- there is no human...God Himself comes to meet sadhaks' requirement !Amazing power is there in Satsanga and turning towards SAT !! Pranaams to all SadhaksSarve Bhavantu SukhinahNarottam---------------- Jai HanumanThe discussion on 'Meditation' emerging out of postings of Brother Mike and Narinderji makes me reproduce the following beautiful summary by Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj. Hope this helps both of them at 'root level' and the following brief note by Swamiji acts for them as MIRROR/YARDSTICK of their present sadhana state :The tendency of 'chitta' has 5 states- Moodha , Kshsipt , Vikshipta, Ekaagra and Niruddh. Out of these the moodha and kshipta tendency human is not eligible for Dhyaan Yoga (Meditation). Only Vikshipta tendency human ( one whose mind sometimes gets concentrated on God and sometime not) is eligible for Meditation (Dhyaan Yoga) !!Such 'Vikshipta' human 'practices' to concentrate his mind (chitta) by removing it from world. (BG 6:26). WHEN his chitta gets fixed on Paramatma THEN that state is known as 'Dhyaan' state. In 'dhyaan' there exist meditator, meditatee (dhyeya- goal- object of meditation- Paramatma) , and meditation. WHEN doing 'dhyaan' - both meditation and meditator cease to exist, only 'dhyeya' remains THEN chitta becomes 'ekaagra'. ( concentrated)- BG 6:19. WHEN chitta vritti gets 'ekaagra' THEN that state is known as SAMPRAGYAAT SAMADHI ( optionful )In Dhyeya- there are 3 things...Dhyeya, the name of Dhyeya and relationship of name of dhyeya and naami(dhyeya itself). WHEN for a long long time you practice Sampragyaat Samadhi then you tend to forget 'name' ( Krishna/Natkhat etc) and only naami (dhyeya) remains..THEN the chitta vritti becomes NIRUDDHA. WHEN Chitta vriti becomes niruddha.. THEN ASAMPRAGYAAT SAMAADHI (optionless state) takes place.The Asampragyaat Samadhi is of two types- Seedless, Seedful ! When there is subtle vaasana (desire) for world , then there is 'seedful' samadhi state. In seedful samadhi state there is relationship with 'aham' (me-ness). Because of that relationship with Aham- there are two states samaadhi and Vyuthhaan ( when there is no samadhi). Because of subtle vaasana , in such samadhi ...occult powers emerge/manifest which are 'aishvarya' from worldly point of view but 'obstacles' to Self/God Realisation. WHEN a sadhak does not get entangled in these occult powers and gets upraam (indifferent) to them...becomes vaasanaless..THEN seedless samadhi takes place. In seedless samadhi , the Yogi gets disconnected with Aham (causal body) totally and "GETS ESTABLISHED IN "SWA".This state is also called as Sahaj Avastha, Gunatheet Avastha, Sahaj Samadhi etc.Thus although in the above Karan Saapeksha Sadhan there is predominance of 'activity' but since the goal of sadhak was Realisation...in the end result his connection with TOOLS (karan) gets totally severed and he experiences/realises Paramatma.Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala Swasth, I think is the halanth deformation of Swastha or swasthi. The Halantha is a clear cut influence of Arabic, Persian and non Latin European languages. Any way, Swasthi = Su Asthi = being well or being in good stead. I am afraid it does not mean swa mein sthitth (a). or being in myself Swasti (ka) is the icon of being well. swasthih prajaabhyaha paripaalayantah etc means people and rulers etc be well'. Swasth may not have anything to do with Aham or Ego. Krishna Samudrala ---- Jai Shri Hari,Looking at your question about the co-existence of "aham" and "swastha", this can exist only in the realized Bhaktas/Premis/Devotees who are always "SWASTHA". The "aham" or "I" of a realized devotee is created out of the pure SELF for the flow of the divine PREM / LOVE which is PRATIKSHANA VARDHAMAANAM (Naarad BhaktiSutra: 54) between the God and the realized devotee. For example, Goswami TulsaidasJi says "Let my ego of being servant of Bhagavaan Shri Ram never go away" (AS ABHIMAAN JAAI JAN BHORE | MAIN SEWAK RAGHUPATI PATI MORE -Maanas/AraNya Kand/11/11). May God bless us all!Niteesh Dubey------------ Griha-stha is a married person. Meaning, he stays at home or he has made a home or home-bound. This does not mean, he is under house arrest! It just means that he has made home as the center of his activity, and returns home after work to his wife. He doesn't hit one night stands or happy hours looking for pleasure or lrisure. he finds both of them at home! Maryada-stha is a person from whom you can expect a dignified behavior all the time or at least most of teh time, because he is established in dignity. Likewise swa-stha is one who is himself and not pretending to be someone else. He is close to his true nature (the way he is). He is comfortable with himself. I think, almost everyone is in "swastha" when it comes to food. Hard to eat something you don't like. Moral: More we stay close to being ourself, we are happy and healthy. Farther we move away from that, we are aswastha (unwell or sick). KST Koti Sreekrishna ------------------------ Shree Hari Ram Ram Shri Narinder Bhandariji! It was only a difference of words, that you have conveyed in a few words the answer hidden in the question. In fact there is no question nor is there an answer. Only that is which was, is and will remain and can remain. Rest all come and go. So be it, Vineet Sarvottam ---- Dear dear brother Mike ..................... down the year, narinder has been reading your posts ............ and revelling in the Grace that blesses Mike with joyful spontainity .............................. the final thought arising from Silence within ........... after reading your last post is ' the Thought on No-Thought ', Silence ........................ the paradox is resolved spontaineously by the self meditating on the self .................. having first ardently desired the Self ............................... in Silence Meditation is the Way ................................................... Direct inquiry on " who am I " is the Way .................... this inquiry itself leads to Silence that is Meditation ................... this happens , when the Time to Meditate has arrived ................. BUT if the self thinks the Time has NOT yet arrived .................... it does not indeed arrive ever ! such is the Paradox ............... the eternal paradox ................ and, yet Guru and Geetha show us the Way to the Un-knowable ................... blessed are you in your endeavours, my friends dear sadhaks, .................... slog, on and His Grace await with positive expectancy .....................-- nothing more can be said except ......................... Be yourself .............. Love yourself ........... Thank ye Mike ....................... and all devotees here ............... AUM narinder bhandari ----------------------- Dear Sadaks, What does matter if Swamiji has said or not that , "I am Swasth". "I am swasth" is true. And "I am not Swath is not true? What is it true for? Is that established Sat. What is untrue for? To see Duviotham (In 2 meanings/shapes/plural etc) {The main question is - Swamiji has said that "you are established in 'swa' - 'Swasth'"( Manav maatre kalyaan ke liye pg 26). on reading this the question that arose is that in this what is the "you"? What is "Swa"? This "you" what relationship does it have with "Swa"? The answers to this, please give in simple language, whcih even an illiterate person can understand.}------ "Swa is Athuman and "You" are THAT B.Sathyanarayan ---- Shree Hari Ram Ram Shri Narottamji ! Shri Pratap Bhattji ! Shri Yeshu Rathenaam ji! Shri Dubeshji, Shri Sathyanarayana ji! Shri Narinder Bhandariji ! and to all merciful sadhaks, my Pranaam! Due to the English language and the knowledge of the supreme spirit being of a high level, I am unable to understand. However I appreciate the effort you all have taken. For that I am thankful. Vineet Sarvottam ------- -Shree Hari-Namaste!Re. Brother Narottam's post, and especially the sentence: '"Svashtha" means 'establishing in self' and not 'I am established in self'. "Self" itself is 'I' there. Where is the 'I' in the Self - all pervasive, universal, part of Paramatma ?'Drew my attention to a quote of Swamiji's: .....In fact, it is an error to consider unity of 'Jeeva' with 'Brahma'. This is unity was/is/will/can never be there. Because there is no 'Jeevahood' in 'Brahma' and no 'Brahmahood' in 'Jeeva' ! Therefore instead of trying to bring unity between both; effort should be made to eliminate 'Jeevahood' (Aham)! After elimination of 'aham' (ego) what remains behind is Brahma ! This is what is called 'Vasudev Sarvam' in Gita !Also I happen to be reading 'The Essence of YOGAVAASISHTHA', and was reading chapter 22, and pasted in a few chapters that caught my eye: ' 37-38. Having resolved that everything is Brahman (or the Supreme Spirit), let one practise the religious vow (or austerity) of worship of the eternal Self. In this mode of worship of the Self, whatever auspicious materials are prescribed (for worship in general), these are conceived solely by the sentiment of tranquility38-40. The Self is not comprehended (or perceived) by scriptural precepts; nor by the words of the Guru (or spiritual guide). It is perceived by itself on account of one's knowledge (or awareness) spontaneously. (However), the Self is not perceived without the teachings of the spiritual guide and scriptural precepts. The existence of the combination of these two alone is the manifester of the knowledge of one's own Self.Note: The import of the above verses is that scriptures and the Guru can only show the way. It is the spiritual aspirant who has to arrive at enlightenment by his own investigation and meditation.40-41. One who ever performs thus the worship of the Deity, absorbed in it, he attains to that supreme abode where (even) people like us are servants.41-42. Having spoken thus, that blue-necked (Lord Siva) became invisible in a moment. From that time onwards till now, I remain performing the worship of the Self by that very method, free from perplexity.'Thank you Pratapji Bhatt for an article of simple brilliance!Om...Shanti...Mike. (K)------------------------------- Dear Ones, Namaste!My humble attempt to give simple answers to Vineetji's question:Q: Swamiji saysyou are established in Swa - Swasth", what is "you", what is "Swa"? and what is their relationship?A: "you" is really Self(Conscious Being), Undivided existence, which seems to have identified with body considering himself limited by it. "Swa" is his true nature, that of Being Consciousness! To wake up such ignorance in one, it is reminded that "hey, you are not what you think you are, you are not bound by any limitations! You are yourself Limitless Being- Atman. "Swa" is your true nature and you are already established as such! You just have to Realize/regain your memory(Gita) you are Swasth, established in your true nature!It is like saying "I cannot live with myself anymore". What is the relationship here of "I" who cannot live with "myself"? Both are one and the same! Same way "you" and "Swa" in this context are one and the same! Swamiji happens to point it out to wake us up to our true nature!Language necessitates such apparent dualistic way to communicate the TRUTH which is Non-Dual!Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt-------------- Hari Om'I'... so long as it is without 'worldly me/mine' and without worldly likings/dislikings - is the sentient part of ego and may continue with liberated souls also. This sentient part in fact represents pure, simple EXISTENCE/CONSCIOUSNESS. There the distinction between SELF and I is not at all present. But the moment affinity with 'world/nature/inert' takes place...in other words Jeevahood comes...'I' gets associated with body/things....activity/matter..Prakruti (Yayedam dharyate jagat..7:4/5) and that 'I' /Aham/Ego requires change/purification/elimination ! THUS, In liberated souls there is no 'I'.. no 'you'..no 'this'..no 'that'..no 'he'..no'she'..no 'it'...! The statement 'I am swastha' is not representative of a liberated soul. There 'I' retains its individuality as distinct from 'self '( swa ) ! With 'Swa'- there is no relationship of I/You/This/That/He/She etc !!I don't see any difference between ' I am swastha' and 'I am Brahma' ..because 'Swa' is essentially 'Brahma' !! No one can ever be a more simple explainer of spirituality than Param Shraddheya Swamiji Maharaj Himself. He has left behind a huge treasure of books and discourses. Illiterates can benefit more by hearing His pravachans than reading His books ( BG 13: 25- shrutvanebhya upaasate). I have not come across a more simple explainer of even the toughest to understand terms etc of spirituality than Swamiji Himself. One should read/hear Him in a surrendered mode rather than presuming ' I know it all' !!Pranaams to all Sadhaks. Sarve Bhavantu SukhinahNarottam Jai Shri Hari,Both are correct and incorrect. It depends how the "I" is defined. Goswami TulasidasJi says that there are 3 kinds (1: Ordinary/Wordly 2: Saadhak/Aspirant 3: Siddha/Realized) of beings/jeevas in this world ("VISHHAYI SAADHAK SIDDHAA SAYAANE | TRIVIDHA JEEVA JAG VEDA BAKHAANE"-Maanas). For the "ordinary/wordly beings": The "I" refers to the body (i.e. ASAT) which always changes. "I am swastha" or "I am not swastha" both are correct from their perspectives but in reality they are wrong. Their meaning of "swastha" is the very common word "healthy". For the "saadhak/aspirant": The "I" contains both the component (i.e. SAT and ASAT) though it assumes it is only "SAT" (e.g. AHAM BRAMHAASMI, TATTVAMASI etc.) during his saadhanaa. "I am swastha" or "I am not swastha" both are incorrect as "I" is not yet totally changed to "SAT". For the "siddha /realized one": There is no separate identity like "I" so there is no such thing like "I am Swastha". There is only "SWASTHA" (i.e. Self is established in self). Similar things are told by BhagavaanJi about Realized/Sthitapragya/Siddha/Yogi/GuNaaTeeta at various places in GitaJi.... AATMANI EVA AATMANAA TUSHTAH STHITIPRAGYASTADOCHYATE - 2/55... AATMANI EVA CHA SANTUSHTA TASYA KAARYAM NA VIDYATE - 3/17YADAA VINIYATAM CHITTAM AATMANI EVA AVATISHTHATE .... - 6/18...YATRA CHA EVA AATMANAA AATMAANAM PASHYANI AATMI TUSHYATI - 6/20SAMDUKHASUKHAH SWASTHAH ... - 14/24.May God bless us !Niteesh DubeyNiteesh Dubey------- The main question is - Swamiji has said that "you are established in 'swa' - 'Swasth'"( Manav maatre kalyaan ke liye pg 26). on reading this the question that arose is that in this what is the "you"? What is "Swa"? This "you" what relationship does it have with "Swa"? The answers to this, please give in simple language, whcih even an illiterate person can understand. Simple language ................. illiterate person .................. understanding ..........ah, my friends .................! if you are truly illiterate ..................... and yearning to understand .............. if, you are simple ................ one phrase is enough ............. and Realisation dawns of Bliss that does not wax and vane ..................... Love that waxes not nor vanes ............... realisation dawns of Love that is God , or, God that is Love , say what you will ......ah ! But lifetimes of concepts and conditionings of Mind that we call Education, Evolution, Literacy ( not your 'Doing'.................. that too is God's Play !! ) have led us to be Aswasth ............ de-established from Self .... The process of Sadhna is only the de-conditioning of Mind ............ returning Home ............ to discover or realise that the 'I' is itself the Swa ............ aham and Swa , Not-Two , Not-Two, Not-Two.................ah ! And,the knowers of Truth have averred ........" Nobody can skip his Sadhna ............ no-one !! " If , the Mind accepts the Truth of this statement of the Knowers ............. the aham shall take to the Sadhna at once , whatever point it is at ............... and soon realise , step by step, that there was no need for the Sadhna .......... you were already that ! BUT, ah, there is a Catch 22 , here ! This happens , only after you have walked the path ............... the Path of the Sadhak True ..... the Path, sharp like the Razor's Edge ........................ ah ! Free yourself from the love of words, discussions, the complications of This and That and, in a Trice, realise ........................... as so many of the enlightened sadhak here have been saying .................. " There is No Sadhna needed .. just accept, you are God's and God is yours , nothing else is needed !!!! " For, that indeed is true ! May Krishna make it true for you ........... may Natkhat smile on you ! BUT, dear friends .................... a question for you ................... " What will happen to this Forum, if that becomes True ?? ah ....!!!!! " The Last Laugh .................. is always Krishna's !!!! ................... The Natkhat !!!!! Aum narinder bhandari -------------------------- Hari Om"Svashtha" means 'establishing in self' and not 'I am established in self'. "Self" itself is 'I' there. Where is the 'I' in the Self - all pervasive, universal, part of Paramatma ?"Sva" - Chetan, Amal, Sahaj Sukhraashi-plain Consciousness- Ishvar ansha,Avinaashi !! Part of God and God only and of no one else. Like in 'desires' where this distinction of 'necessity' and 'desire' confuses a sadhak...in "Sva" - too there are two parts of Ego. One that is with reference to world/inert (adopted by Jeeva) and another which represents 'mere, simple, plain, only..existence' or as Pratapji Bhatt so beautifully explained-Consciousness !! There is nothing wrong in this Consciousness or Chetana ! But the 'inert part' of ego is devil. There are 'me (s)' and 'mine (s)' in it with reference to 'world' ...that is 'I' ....that is stated in Scriptures as 'Aham' or 'Ego'....not the plain consciousness part. It is this portion of ego- worldly/inert portion- which is addressed by Scriptures ! Hence let there be no confusion in mere "I exist" and 'I am... Me...Mine...' . Remove the world out of me..mine..what remains behind is pure consciousness - SATTA MATRA - in the words of Swamiji Maharaj. Pranaams to all SadhaksSarve Bhavantu SukhinahNarottam --------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji has never said , "I am Swasth". I too have not said that Swamiji has said so. My question is whether the saying "I am swasth" or "I am not swasth" is true or not true? What is it true for? What is untrue for? kindly give concise and brief answer, and if this is understood then I can address the main question. The main question is - Swamiji has said that "you are established in 'swa' - 'Swasth'"( Manav maatre kalyaan ke liye pg 26). on reading this the question that arose is that in this what is the "you"? What is "Swa"? This "you" what relationship does it have with "Swa"? The answers to this, please give in simple language, whcih even an illiterate person can understand. Very thankful, Vineet Sarvottam ------------------------ Dear Ones,I think it is appropriate to mention that "I" as aham or ego, is non-existent, being the shadow of Self, or Atman.Ego arises in SELF-Atman as Aabhas only! Many times it disappears too!Ego refers to fleeting sense of "I exist independently of the world and world exist apart from me".It is not true and it is never experienced by us! Thus "I" points to the SELF, the Being of all separate beings! I suggest sadhaks can check their experience closely upon waking up from sleep as to what they feel in the first seconds? It will be invariably "I am" or just the feeling, not even a thought yet, of just being.Now as mind wakes up few seconds later, it associates "I" of pure existence(I am-ness) with the body. Mind carries the seed of ignorance which sprouts and the tree of world is created providing continuity in time-space for the life as we know to go on. This fact of our experience is missed and we think world was always there independently!This is not our experience though, it is what we conceive ourselves(body-mind stuff) and the world.The world we deal with exists in mind as conceptions only!"I" is experiential Reality, or Witnessing Presence, truly, and not aham-ego.With such Realization ultimately "witnessed world" also resolve into Witnessing Presence!This is Vasudeva Servam! Out comes the proclamation of Rishis of Upanishads: "Tat Tvam Asi" or "Aham Brahmasmi" or THAT THOU ART! This is, perhaps, what Narottamji says about what Swamiji cautions us regarding making such statements is because without Realizing the true nature of "I" one cannot say "Aham Brahmasmi". As a matter of fact, Realization is that Aham never existed, only Brahman is Existence-Consciousness!This is being Swastha!For Sathynarayanji I would say that "Only Bhagwaan IS as Existence absolute, the world is not as the world of objects". We can only say the presence of Atman(Bhagwaan as spirit) makes the individual body-mind functionbut ultimately alll bodies, all minds, and all that ever exist are HIS/HIM only! He being infinite cannot be residing in the finite, He can shine them just as Sun brings life to earth, but is never within!Soul, Jeeva, spirit, jada, chetan, perishable, imperishable, inert, etc are only mind's concepts to which it gets attached as if real, but beyond which everything, existence or its absence, IS called GOD!Namaskar.....Pratap Bhatt----------------------------- Dear Sadhakas The meaning of the word 'swasth' should be compared with the word 'swastha.' yeshu rathenam ---------------------- Hari OmI do not recollect Swamiji anywhere stating "I am svashtha" ! He described the meaning of "svashtha" but did not connect "I" with it ! Where did He connect "I" with it? On which page no of which book?"Aham" exists only in "Jeevas" (Bondaged souls) never in "Jeevanmuktas". (Liberated souls) !! There is no "Aham" in the eyes of Mahatmas or Paramatma ...it is only in the eyes of bondaged souls. It is another matter that 'I' (Aham) has two parts- the sentient part denotes 'mere existence' ..say white colour, the inert part a'mere assumed existence'..say black colour and Jeeva (chijjadgranthi)..affinity of sentient and inert...Purusha and Prakruti..say grey colour !! Any one who claims/strives to be/ believes ..."Aham Brahmasmi" ( I am God/Brahma)...cannot attain realization...has been said by Taat Shree (Swamiji) at dozens of places-NEVER ...NEVER ! He must throw away "I" in the end !!, If "I" is there..there is no Brahma (swashtha)...If Brahma is there, ..there is no 'I'- As simple as that!Pranaams to all sadhaks.Sarve Bhavantu Sukhinah.Narottam Dear Vineet, it is indeed a very good question.. Both thing can't be together.. it is like saying.. "I am in dream state" because once we can either be in dream state or in the worldly state... But if we may think more... there is one state in which both can exist and that is when I am just thinking of something with my full consicousness.. or to say I am making some plans or again dreaming of something.. in that I am free to move in and out of the plan making state... So basically to summarise I think if we can get control of our Dream state i.e. Go in and out of it with freewill then saying "Swa mein Stith" can still sound true.. and this may be only true for great yogis who have attained liberation and can freely go into and out of world.. Sai Ram Deepak ----------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Vineetji has initiated a good discussion on Swasth. In our routine way Swasth indicates overall well being emphasizing physical wellness!However, here, Swa means "I" and "sth" from "sthitah", means remaining established.Thus it means to remain established as one's True Self, or as I AM! But then how do I remain as such?Here, "I" is not meant to be aham-ego as we generally use it commonly to refer to myself, an individual. Upon investigation of its nature, realization happens that "I" refers to Pure Being(Conscious Existence-Atman-Self)! Now, as Atman-Self-Consciousness reflects in a particular body-mind, a mind based sense of "I/me" asserts itself as an individual entity independent of rest of Existence, its Source, Self, Atman! Subsequent realization happens that such individual is a false sense of "I" appearing in Self but taken as real, the cause of all non-well being! This Realization is being Swasth, establishing one as Atman, SELF, Complete Divinity and non-dual ONE. Overall well being implied in being Swasth comes upon in being established as Atman-Self. That which is existent is SELF, swasth always, and that which is non-existent is any thing superimposed on Swasth such as individual body, mind, objects of the world etc etc.To remove such ignorance of individuality is to be Swasth!Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------- Dear Sadaks,"I" with reference Athuman is Swasth. "I" & "Athuman" are One and the same Aham Bhramasmi. On the contrary "I" with reference to body is not possible as Swasth, as "I" the body perishable. In Bible "I" with reference to holy sprit (Athuman) has NO rebirth. In Geetha Bagavan says,"I am in everything but I am not that". Means Bagavan is the divine sprit in every living thing enabling the body to function, but HE is not the body (Form). But Sadaks, Can you tell why so.B.Sathyanarayan------------------------------- True.......................so true .................. not only improbable............. but impossible it is to be the 'aham' and ' the swa' in the same instant Now .......... yet.......... the Sage and the Seer speak of the swa and the aham to be not-two and Realisation of the Truth possible .... ah ! and Swami Ramsukhdasjee avers that ' to be sthit in the swa ' is swasth ah .............., how can he be wrong ????? thus begins the sadhna ............ of the sadhaka ........ with Faith and Trust in the words of the Guru ........ not to rest till the impossible becomes for him possible and true ........................... that which is intellectually 'impossible' becomes the 'state of being' , when in abeyance , the intellect is held .................... (by whom, pray ?) some call it Samadhi, dharna dhyan preceding ....... some say Meditation it is ............ the Way as well as the Goal ............... narinder calls it the Death of the Mind ............. that must 'happen' in this moment now , while body and mind in good health(swasth) abide ....................... the Upanishads lead us into understanding through a million words and one understanding of That, which is impossible to understand ............ and so the Upanishad speaks of the three states of Consciousness Waking, Dream and the Unconscious state of deep sleep Jagrat, Swapna, and Sushupti ............ Jagrat is Jagrat only because of the presence of the Swa Swapna is Swapna ............... only because of the presence of the Swa Sushupti is Sushupti only because Swa is present to witness .... the state of Consciousness abide in Itself , the Stillness , the state of rest rest from song and dance of the dream that is the Swapna , and the Jagrat too .............. ah !!!! do you see, dear sadhaka, can you see ...........? in the Jagrat, there is the Jagrat and the Swa In the Swapna, the Swapna and the Swa in Sushupti, the Sushupti and the Swa ............ ah ! in every cycle of 24 hours .......... the Swa is the witness the ever present deathless witness of the three changing states of Consciousness ................... and yet, narinder becomes not aware of the Swa , the unborn , deathless Swa ( Tat Twam Asi ! ) that is a witness to the changing states of Consciousness ,which is but the Play of the great Swa !!! to be healthy , you shall have to be 'Swa mein Sthit' dear sadhaka ........... that is True ...... and that is why, the Knowers did say .................. " Meditation is the way, dear one, Meditation is the way .... " whether Karma is your wont, whether Bhakti is your path, or Gyana your sway ........ Meditation shall bring you to your Goal, the Swa ............ Not-two-ness, One-ness of 'aham' and the Swa .......... when all other efforts of the 'aham' fail .... AUM narinder bhandari ===========================================GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to feedback at end of dicussion to bring closure and commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. RESPECT all Sadhaks. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be BRIEF, RELEVANT (stay with the subject being discussed only)5. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person6. All responses may not be posted.7. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.GITA TALK MODERATORSRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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