Why atma has assumed affinity with nature (prakriti) ?

[Guest guest]

jai shri ramI have been reading sadhak messages from some time ...... my question is....

Why "atma" has assumed affinity with nature (prakriti) ?This question has come in my mind by chance & i seek answer for it. I am sure one or the other day God will give me the answer & u could be the medium of God ..jai shri ram

Amit Gupta

-------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Amitji, Kindly read the following sadhak messages on this topic and if you have any doubts you may ask for clarification from the sadhaks of this forum. Thank you,

What binds the Soul, the Spirit ?

sadhaka/message/1730

What binds the Soul, the Spirit - Part 2 ?

sadhaka/message/1731

The Self is Naturally Liberated (11.2.2005)

sadhaka/message/682

Egoism and It's Release

sadhaka/message/2005

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

===========================================

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to feedback at end of dicussion to bring closure and commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. RESPECT all Sadhaks. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be BRIEF, RELEVANT (stay with the subject being discussed only)5. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person6. All responses may not be posted.7. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.GITA TALK MODERATORSRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

[Guest guest]

jai shri ramI have been reading sadhak messages from some time ...... my question is....

Why "atma" has assumed affinity with nature (prakriti) ?This question has come in my mind by chance & i seek answer for it. I am sure one or the other day God will give me the answer & u could be the medium of God ..jai shri ram

Amit Gupta

-------

NEW POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

That which has been called Atma is inseparable, undivided from Paramatma (Supreme Soul, Supreme Consciousness). Just like we do not know or recognize Paramatma, but can only accept (believe), similarly, believe in atma. Who has come to know that atma has assumed affinity with inert matter (Nature, Prakriti)? Only Mind -Intellect can assume affinity (attach itself) to Prakriti (Nature, matter). Bhagwaan (God) Himself has said this, "Na karoti, na lipyate" (Gita 13:31) Getting tangled up and then attempting to untangle yourself, you will lose precious time as it will be dissipated away. Swamiji has suggested a very good spiritual practice (saadhan), if you like it, then try doing it and see for yourself ("Chup Saadhan" in Sadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu pg 61).

So be it,

Vineet Sarvottam

-

Hari OmAgyaan (ignorance) / Stupidity (moorkhata) is the sole cause of Jeeva (Atma) assuming an affinity with Prakruti. Because of this Agyaan/Stupidity only Jeeva accepts body to be me/mine. Once Jeeva assumes affinity - this affinity continues because Jeeva then starts desiring pleasure out of World and worldly things....and suffers, suffers and...suffers! Pranaams to all sadhaks.Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.Narottam -----------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!First, let us be clear what Atma is! Atma is not something perceived as object of knowledge through senses and mind, like we know everything of this world! Sounds like bad news? Not really, because good news is that one need not know "Atma" as One IS Atman just the way one is. In otherwords, one already exists before one can even ask what is Atma, which is what one IS! One can only forget it or ignore the experience of Being Aware-Conscious by assuming to be somebody/something else like body. Atma is just a name given to our experience of Knowing of Being as "I am"! This feeling of "I am" as it reflects in the body-mind organism, gives rise to an illusory entity "me" due to affinity with a body-mind. If it knows it is illusory, it will shake off affinity, but illusory "me" thinks it is real and the world it perceives is also as real and separate from it!Actually illusory "me" is due to Maya principle so the Divine Leela can go on, just as drama on the stage where one needs to forget one's reality and assume a role assigned by Story writer! This is exactly what happens here!In some human birth, there happens a realization that "oh it's just a drama, and I am not so ans so I am playing the role"!I am One and only Reality which is Consciousness( same as Existence) without any divisions as many. Just as God as consciousness hides in many disguises(Nama and rupa) to play, He also leaves many clues so He can track its route back Home! One of the clues is by worlds of wisdom from scriptures such as Gita, or the likes of Swamiji, saints and sages of their times! Such words are like auto suggestion to wake up ignorant and self forgetful souls to Realize their true Universality of Being!This happened to Arjuna after listening to Lord Krishna in Gita as he proclaimed to Him by saying: Nashto Moha Smritirlabdhava....."O Krishna I have regained the lost memory and realize that Atma is what I am".(Ch 18)Thus Atma or Self gives up all its notions of likes-dislikes/attachments/fears etc acquired due to thinking itself as body and gets liberated. Now body becomes its tool to serve entire nature. Nature is also Divine!In summary affinity with world is not real, but false taken as real. If it was real, no one can be free from Bondage!Namaskar................Pratap Bhatt

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Atma is sometning that exist in the Creation, so is Prakriti. Atma has certainchracteristics, so does Prakriti. Both must therefore be created by the Creator,the ultimate single source from which everything can be traced back. So, if Atmaand Prakriti are the creation of the same source, the Creator, they would bydefintion have some affinity of ultimate source.The chracters of Atma and Prakiti are also derived from the same source So,these two would have chracteristics that would draw them into some relationshipof attraction and/ or repulsion or none interaction or inter-relation. If weobserve that that they have interaction because atma is everywhere and even in ahuman body and so is prakriti. So, one can influence the other or be influencedby each other. The affinity is therefore is tge very design of the of their sameultimate source, the Creator. If Creator is God and God is the ultimate source of everything including Atmaand Pakriti, it is God who has designed the affinity of Atma and Prakriti.If Atma was not influenced by Prakriti, Atma would be nothing but the Creator,it source. Prakriti plays its dance as per the properties imparted to it by theSource, the ultimate God. Atma, according to the properties imparted to it byCreator, the God, can just witness Prakriti's dance. As a witness it may seemto get overwhelmed by the dance of prakriti, though in reality it remainstotally unaffected. When Atma is totally unaffected by the dance of theprakriti, Atma assimed the exact property of God the Paramatma. Leberation fromthe ipact of the forces of Prakriti or Self Realisation occurs when the theindividual realizes that he/ she is the Atma, unaffected by the Pakrit, the egoand desires vanishes and equanamity rules: the gross physical body is stillsubject to Prakriti but Atma rules makes the senses and the mind rest inequnimity without being affected by Prakriti's impact in the form of desires oreogo. Body does not act any longer due the influence of ego or mind. The illusion that Prakriti helps generate in the form od developingidentity of ego and desires to drive the mind and senses, no longer operates.That is liberation or Salvation that the Sadhaka had been concentrating on asthe only desire. When Salvation occurs ven that desire also goes because that isthe property of Atma or the Self. why God has created such a complicated design, only God will tell you one day.But it seems when Atma is always happy, Prakiti causes senses to feel bothhappinss and sorrow depending on whether desires are fulfilled or not.Basudeb Sen---------------------------

Atma is known through prakriti. There is no other way to know, sir. Y V Chawla-----------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Chawlaji, How can sentient (conscious, chetan) be known through inert (jad) prakriti? Please explain? Do you see mind/intellect as part of prakriti (Nature)? Are you saying that atma can be known through mind/intellect and that there is no other way? Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Amitji, Kindly read the following sadhak messages on this topic and if you have any doubts you may ask for clarification from the sadhaks of this forum. Thank you,

What binds the Soul, the Spirit ?

sadhaka/message/1730

What binds the Soul, the Spirit - Part 2 ?

sadhaka/message/1731

The Self is Naturally Liberated (11.2.2005)

sadhaka/message/682

Egoism and It's Release

sadhaka/message/2005

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

===========================================

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to feedback at end of dicussion to bring closure and commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. RESPECT all Sadhaks. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be BRIEF, RELEVANT (stay with the subject being discussed only)5. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person6. All responses may not be posted.7. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.GITA TALK MODERATORSRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

[Guest guest]

jai shri ramI have been reading sadhak messages from some time ...... my question is....

Why "atma" has assumed affinity with nature (prakriti) ?This question has come in my mind by chance & i seek answer for it. I am sure one or the other day God will give me the answer & u could be the medium of God ..jai shri ram

Amit Gupta

-------

NEW POSTING

Follow-up Question:

 

jai shri ram I have read it ,but in these forums we have described what binds spirit after taking the birth ... b4 taking the birth ATMA & Patmatma is one ..My question is when atma was one with parmatma ,then why it has to take birth ....Sattva, raja, tamas - these gunas (modes) born of nature (prakriti) bind theimperishable spirit to the body..But when Soul is one with supreme soul how can these gunas can affect a soul ...RegardsAmit Gupta

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I failed to understand ATma.,

 

what Atma can do, if body, mind, intellect does not support,

 

if some one get mad, the whole of the body dwindle, even there is

Atma

 

please any one enlighten the Atma, without these Mana, and Budhi

 

 

warm regards

 

suresh Goel

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Dear Sadaks, Athuma assumes affinity with nature when thought arises in Athuman (Which is no gender). Ex: Sri Mahalakshmi in Sri Vaikunt thought about one of the very great saint Sri Vishnu Chitar (Later known as Peria Alwar- means head of the saints) on his devotion of Garlending Sri Ranganatha at Sri Rangam, SHE was given affinity with nature as the saint daughter ANDAL. SHE did best garlends with immense affection and love on God and finally she taken to HIS abode in presence of 100 of people. The song in south India starts, " Pallandu Pallandu---" when the saint and others wittnessed that SHE was sitting on Garuda along with Sri Maha Vishnu. Saint Purander Doss all know. He was Naradh Rishi who thought that why people all going away from Bakthi. Next second Bagavan said, " Oh Naradh go to earth and pearch Bakthi. Like this I can quote many. Same way if an Athuman things negatively, IT assumes affinity with Nature. Only if sadaks ask doubts in this, they can be cleared.B.Sathyanarayan

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Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!This is in reference to comments by Moderatorji, on Chawlaji's observations.As said many times, Atma is Knowing-ness(Consciousness) which IS Being-ness, Existence! This Knowing-ness is reflecting through sense organs, mind, Intellect, and the feeling "I AM", manifesting Itself as the body-mind and seeming world out there in space-time fabric.It is just like electricity reflects in all kinds of gadgets, and manifest itself as light, heat, motion, or other functions.If there are no gadgets to reflect, it remains UN-MANIFEST but never non-existent. Gadgets need electricity to function but electricity doesn't depend on gadgets to exist! We can say that electricity disguises itself as light, heat, motions, just as Consciousness disguises Itself as nature, world of objects, some we call insentient, some sentient with names and forms.Another example: no one can see light if it is not reflected by some obstructions provided by objects. Do we know that we only see reflected light conceived as objects, not the light in itself? Similarly Nature(Prakrity) provides this obstructions for Consciousness to manifest from its Unmanifest Being! Actually Atma is not known through Prakriti, rather, Prakriti is known through Atma, prakriti being the disguise for Atma, the pure Existence! Thus Atma goes unnoticed as though veiled over by names and forms! Atman cannot be known as object of perception or inference, obtained through sense organs and intellect which can provide indirect means of knowledge only! Atma is not an object, a thing. Atma is experiential and direct perception(Aparoksha anubhuti). The very fact that seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, tasting and thinking etc takes place is THE PROOF of Existence of Knowingness-Consciousness called Atma!Having said this, Atma, although attained, is realized only upon the removal of ignorance inherent in the manifestation of body-mind-nature!Possibility of Realization exist only because possibility of ignorance exist! Otherwise, Atma IS all there IS!Nature as insentient cannot be experienced, as only sentient Atma manifests nature extending it as conscious thoughts with names and forms! Finally, even sentient and insentient are relative concepts arising in Atma(consciousness) as Consciousness!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt-----

Chawlaji has been asked to explain 'How can sentient (conscious, chetan) be known through inert (jad) prakriti?' I have an explanation. God exists in everything, everything exists in God. That's what Prahlad understood of our criptures. Prahlad's life shows God responded by coming out as Narasimhah when Prahlad's father kicked the 'jada' wall. Chetan (Consciousness) and Jad are the creation of the same creator. If God as Chetal ultimate can create jad, exploring jad can help get at least an idea of Consciousness. All that is Jad, all that is Prakriti has some properties and Gunas or other inherited in them. If mind and intellect can know the Gunas and properties of jad or the behavior pattern of prakriti even to some extent, then it is also possible for mind and intellect to form an idea of the Great Consciousness. But being in Concsiousness is different from being subject to Prakriti or as part of Prakiti's manifestation as Jad.The notios of consciousness or Jad have all come out of the human mind. These may be simple immagination or observations of the mind or intellect or senses. If the ultimate source of all things including concepts like consciouness and jad are True and that is what we call God, then everything potentially exists in everything as else. All mirackles are possible. If The concepts like Consciouness are not True because they are the products of human mind or intellect, then the question is not very relevant. It is always possible for the human mind to defince concepts like Consciousness and Jad in such a manner that Jad can help know consciousness by cintrast as Day is knowbn by contrasting with Night and vice versa. What Lord Krishna said in Gita went into the ears of Arjun and Sanjay. What Sanjay said to Yudhithir has come through the mind of those who wrote Gita in Sanscrut and other languages based on the influence of their minds. In terpretations vary and can be confusing. Each person is therefore entitled to construct his own Gita. Each such interpretations is legitimate. The ultimate test of each interpretation lies in how it helps Sadhaks to progress on their path towards the Goal of liberation or how it distracts from the progress.Basudeb Sen

------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

That which has been called Atma is inseparable, undivided from Paramatma (Supreme Soul, Supreme Consciousness). Just like we do not know or recognize Paramatma, but can only accept (believe), similarly, believe in atma. Who has come to know that atma has assumed affinity with inert matter (Nature, Prakriti)? Only Mind -Intellect can assume affinity (attach itself) to Prakriti (Nature, matter). Bhagwaan (God) Himself has said this, "Na karoti, na lipyate" (Gita 13:31) Getting tangled up and then attempting to untangle yourself, you will lose precious time as it will be dissipated away. Swamiji has suggested a very good spiritual practice (saadhan), if you like it, then try doing it and see for yourself ("Chup Saadhan" in Sadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu pg 61).

So be it,

Vineet Sarvottam

-

Hari OmAgyaan (ignorance) / Stupidity (moorkhata) is the sole cause of Jeeva (Atma) assuming an affinity with Prakruti. Because of this Agyaan/Stupidity only Jeeva accepts body to be me/mine. Once Jeeva assumes affinity - this affinity continues because Jeeva then starts desiring pleasure out of World and worldly things....and suffers, suffers and...suffers! Pranaams to all sadhaks.Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.Narottam -----------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!First, let us be clear what Atma is! Atma is not something perceived as object of knowledge through senses and mind, like we know everything of this world! Sounds like bad news? Not really, because good news is that one need not know "Atma" as One IS Atman just the way one is. In otherwords, one already exists before one can even ask what is Atma, which is what one IS! One can only forget it or ignore the experience of Being Aware-Conscious by assuming to be somebody/something else like body. Atma is just a name given to our experience of Knowing of Being as "I am"! This feeling of "I am" as it reflects in the body-mind organism, gives rise to an illusory entity "me" due to affinity with a body-mind. If it knows it is illusory, it will shake off affinity, but illusory "me" thinks it is real and the world it perceives is also as real and separate from it!Actually illusory "me" is due to Maya principle so the Divine Leela can go on, just as drama on the stage where one needs to forget one's reality and assume a role assigned by Story writer! This is exactly what happens here!In some human birth, there happens a realization that "oh it's just a drama, and I am not so ans so I am playing the role"!I am One and only Reality which is Consciousness( same as Existence) without any divisions as many. Just as God as consciousness hides in many disguises(Nama and rupa) to play, He also leaves many clues so He can track its route back Home! One of the clues is by worlds of wisdom from scriptures such as Gita, or the likes of Swamiji, saints and sages of their times! Such words are like auto suggestion to wake up ignorant and self forgetful souls to Realize their true Universality of Being!This happened to Arjuna after listening to Lord Krishna in Gita as he proclaimed to Him by saying: Nashto Moha Smritirlabdhava....."O Krishna I have regained the lost memory and realize that Atma is what I am".(Ch 18)Thus Atma or Self gives up all its notions of likes-dislikes/attachments/fears etc acquired due to thinking itself as body and gets liberated. Now body becomes its tool to serve entire nature. Nature is also Divine!In summary affinity with world is not real, but false taken as real. If it was real, no one can be free from Bondage!Namaskar................Pratap Bhatt

---

Atma is sometning that exist in the Creation, so is Prakriti. Atma has certainchracteristics, so does Prakriti. Both must therefore be created by the Creator,the ultimate single source from which everything can be traced back. So, if Atmaand Prakriti are the creation of the same source, the Creator, they would bydefintion have some affinity of ultimate source.The chracters of Atma and Prakiti are also derived from the same source So,these two would have chracteristics that would draw them into some relationshipof attraction and/ or repulsion or none interaction or inter-relation. If weobserve that that they have interaction because atma is everywhere and even in ahuman body and so is prakriti. So, one can influence the other or be influencedby each other. The affinity is therefore is tge very design of the of their sameultimate source, the Creator. If Creator is God and God is the ultimate source of everything including Atmaand Pakriti, it is God who has designed the affinity of Atma and Prakriti.If Atma was not influenced by Prakriti, Atma would be nothing but the Creator,it source. Prakriti plays its dance as per the properties imparted to it by theSource, the ultimate God. Atma, according to the properties imparted to it byCreator, the God, can just witness Prakriti's dance. As a witness it may seemto get overwhelmed by the dance of prakriti, though in reality it remainstotally unaffected. When Atma is totally unaffected by the dance of theprakriti, Atma assimed the exact property of God the Paramatma. Leberation fromthe ipact of the forces of Prakriti or Self Realisation occurs when the theindividual realizes that he/ she is the Atma, unaffected by the Pakrit, the egoand desires vanishes and equanamity rules: the gross physical body is stillsubject to Prakriti but Atma rules makes the senses and the mind rest inequnimity without being affected by Prakriti's impact in the form of desires oreogo. Body does not act any longer due the influence of ego or mind. The illusion that Prakriti helps generate in the form od developingidentity of ego and desires to drive the mind and senses, no longer operates.That is liberation or Salvation that the Sadhaka had been concentrating on asthe only desire. When Salvation occurs ven that desire also goes because that isthe property of Atma or the Self. why God has created such a complicated design, only God will tell you one day.But it seems when Atma is always happy, Prakiti causes senses to feel bothhappinss and sorrow depending on whether desires are fulfilled or not.Basudeb Sen---------------------------

Atma is known through prakriti. There is no other way to know, sir. Y V Chawla-----------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Chawlaji, How can sentient (conscious, chetan) be known through inert (jad) prakriti? Please explain? Do you see mind/intellect as part of prakriti (Nature)? Are you saying that atma can be known through mind/intellect and that there is no other way? Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Amitji, Kindly read the following sadhak messages on this topic and if you have any doubts you may ask for clarification from the sadhaks of this forum. Thank you,

What binds the Soul, the Spirit ?

sadhaka/message/1730

What binds the Soul, the Spirit - Part 2 ?

sadhaka/message/1731

The Self is Naturally Liberated (11.2.2005)

sadhaka/message/682

Egoism and It's Release

sadhaka/message/2005

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

===========================================

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant toDharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take upspiritual path2. The Questioner must commit to feedback at end of dicussion to bring closure and commit to daily Gita study3. Only one question at a time.4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aimof deeper understanding of Gita.GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.3. RESPECT all Sadhaks. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Be BRIEF, RELEVANT (stay with the subject being discussed only)5. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, addressetc) or personalize message to particular person6. All responses may not be posted.7. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limitthe use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.GITA TALK MODERATORSRam Ram------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: -

[Guest guest]

jai shri ramI have been reading sadhak messages from some time ...... my question is....

Why "atma" has assumed affinity with nature (prakriti) ?This question has come in my mind by chance & i seek answer for it. I am sure one or the other day God will give me the answer & u could be the medium of God ..jai shri ram

Amit Gupta

-------

Follow-up Question:

jai shri ram I have read it ,but in these forums we have described what binds spirit after taking the birth ... b4 taking the birth ATMA & Parmatma is one ..My question is when atma was one with parmatma ,then why it has to take birth ....Sattva, raja, tamas - these gunas (modes) born of nature (prakriti) bind theimperishable spirit to the body..But when Soul is one with supreme soul how can these gunas can affect a soul ...RegardsAmit Gupta

---

NEW POSTING

Dear Seekers of Truth, Namaste!Even though the previous post provides the answer to follow-up questions of Amitji and Sureshji, it would only add more emphasis and hopefully clarity, if I tried again to answer! Please bear with me!Question : when atma was one with parmatma ,then why it has to take birth ....Atma is not taking birth ever, Atma is not a thing or some object which keeps on changing as that object and become known as something else. Just as water changes form to become ice or vapor which, then, disappears in air but Existence itself which was water and now vapor or ice is still Existence! This is also law of conservation of mass and energy. Anything including nature or prakriti as a whole(not as objects separated by space), cannot be ever non-existent, only forms changes. Thus one can say Existence as water is now Existence as vapor!Exactly same happens when body disintegrates back into five elements and continue to exist differently which we call death.The Existence is Atma, and is just ONE and WHOLE, not divided by us calling them as different objects conceived by mind! Objects are perishable but not Existence, remaining always Imperishable! or in other words, Existence appears as many seemingly separate objects and changing forms! That is why it is also called substratum of all.Now this Existence is only One and is Reality of all things and its nature is Consciousness or Awareness because to be able to say Existence, is to be conscious or aware of whatever it is we are aware of. Therefore, one can also say Such Existence which is really Consciousness is Paramatma and seeming(not real) objects have seeming existence called Atma, in this context only! Otherwise, Atma is not contained in the body or mind, on the contrary, Atma as Existence contains all bodies and beyond, and is their substance and substratum! Sometimes we hear that Atma merges with Paramatma, is just to glorify the nature of Atma but is the same!In Gita, the famous verse of Ch 2:16 is the crux of the teaching saying "Nasato vidyate bhavo....That which IS never ceases to BE, which means The Existence-Consciousness manifest as all things cannot be destroyed, and that which IS not, meaning individual names and forms appear but are non-existent as independent objects!Finally Atma never is really affiliated with prakriti, because Atma is all THERE EVER IS! To this Gita says "Vasudevam sarvam"! However, due to ignorance of considering separate objects as real, there is a forgetfulness arising in Atma and getting attached. That is why Swamiji keeps us reminding that such objects of prakriti are perishable, so disassociate from them until the knowledge happens that "Everything is Atma or God, or Vasudeva, or Awareness, or Brahman!God is not different from Sat-Chit or THAT which IS Ananda too!Namaskar.............Pratap BhattNamaskar.........Pratap -----------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Here are some shlokas from Gita Madhurya that may help answer your question. To understand in-depth you will have to read Sadhak Sanjivani (SS) the detail description of each shlokas. Gita Madhurya is more for beginners / youth, so you may not be satisfied with the overview, but it gives you a place to start to get more details. SS in Hindi is online at:

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/SadhakSanjeevni/main.html

Question: Who is the creator and base of this World?Lord: It is I, who is the base, creator and sustainer of all beings. Understanding and beholding My divine form, and realizing that inspite of beingthe creator and sustainer of all beings, Myself does not dwell in them. Iremain totally untainted. (Gita 9:4-5)Question: Then how do all beings abide in You?Lord: Just as expansive and all pervading air (which is born of space) alwaysremains in space (ether); likewise all beings (sprung as they are from Me) abidein Me. (Gita 9:6)Question: In that case, those beings must be attaining liberation?Lord: No, all beings that become attached to My Nature (prakriti) merge in MyNature at the end of final dissolution and I bring them forth again at thebeginning of the new creation. (Gita 9:7)Question: How long do You continue to bring them forth?Lord: So long as they are subject to the influence of their nature, layinghold of My Prakriti, I bring them forth again and again. (Gita 9:8)Question: When You bring them forth again and again, do these actions notbind You, Oh Lord?Lord: No, I remain unattached and indifferent to those actions like onetotally unaffected and untainted. Therefore, those actions do not bind Me. (Gita 9:9)Question: Then how do You bring forth the creation?Lord: In reality it is My Nature (Prakriti), under My supervision, whichbrings forth the whole creation, both animate and inanimate. It is under Mysupervision the World undergoes various changes. (Gita 9:10)From "Gita Madhurya" in English by Swami Ramsukhdasji - pg 90

Meera Das, Ram Ram

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Why "atma" has assumed affinity with nature (prakriti) ?

This is a wonderful question … but is fit to be asked by oneself! Because, what one understands by oneself as well as the one who appreciates the same are completely exclusive to the individual. Nobody else can ever imagine what one would have really meant by "oneself". Therefore, please ask this question to yourself … again and again … you will keep getting some answers followed by further questions … I would say, one understands this question when there is no more questions to follow up … Good luck in your journey. As you have mentioned, The God may (and will) shower His divine knowledge to you one day.

Some statements are made regarding Aatman, Prakriti, Creator, God, etc. Also, some claims are made whether the sentient and insentient are one or two – I presume the premise to be of the two (if it was one, there would not have been this question to start with!). Also, there are some debates regarding what perceives what. But, whatsoever is talked of, one has to agree to the fact that one is responsible for one's miseries and hence is responsible to question oneself for the root cause. That is the common ground with which all the spiritual explorations are conducted, in my opinion. For this, one has to identify oneself first … otherwise, how to handle this question? I cannot address "Why do I suffer?" till I understand "Who I am?" The entire enquiry suggested in the scriptures is to facilitate the second question so that the first is addressed in a holistic sense.

We easily pass the bug on to the world around for our suffering while we maintain a deep fissure in our own identity versus the rest in the world! On one hand we say "I suffer" while claiming that the suffering comes from something else. On the other hand we claim that "I am free of these objects" and yet we keep ourselves helplessly gullible to the lure of the same objects. There is a fissure between our appreciation of both the subject (Aatman, Purusha, sentient, self, soul, etc.) as well as the objects (Shareera, Prakriti, insentient, inert, world, etc.). The subject keeps objectifying itself shrinking its domain when put into awkward enquiries so that it can keep pointing its fingers toward some objects for its miseries. On the other hand it keeps subjectifying the whole universe expanding its domain when it finds comforting answers so that it can keep pointing its fingers to itself to attain self-elation. We have nurtured this habit to the extent that we have completely forgotten what we really mean by sentient as well as insentient, I and the rest! We keep both the concepts so elastic so that we can stretch or shrink either so as to position ourselves at a point of comfort where we do not need to take responsibilities and we can unilaterally exercise our authority. We just want to seek a position where there is no resistance to our core urge for not taking responsibilities as well as for heralding our authorities. In other words, what we are truly looking for is to find a point where we can always claim ourselves for the good and blame others for the bad.

The question is lopsided in a way … Why anyone develops attraction toward the world? Also, why anyone displays repulsion toward the same world at the same time?? As I understand, the sole reason is the insistence on the cessation between our notional definitions of the subject (The Self) and the objects (The World)! The corollary reason is that we cannot stick to our very definitions either!! Till this cessation is maintained in one's notions, one can never be free from the desires as well as fears … attractions and repulsions are inevitable as far as there is a subject within that is alienating itself from the objects around perpetually. One can attain Absolute Peace only when ONE remains wherein all the discriminations get merged leaving no traces of any identity.

Now, getting back to the question … if you realize that ONE is the only reality, no more questions. If you come to any other conclusions in the journey of questioning suggested earlier … good luck! Keep going!! Just, be alert …

UttishThata jaagrata praapya varaannibodhata |

Kshurasya dharaa nishitaa duratyayaa durgam pathastatkavayo vadanti ||

The journey is very sensistive … as sensitive as a razor edge … any error in one's appreciation may lead to devastating divergence that has landed us where we are now … be alert not to fall on wrong side if you truly seek convergence in the path. Convergence can be assured only with truly truthful disposition toward The Truth as such.

Let that convergence dawn on the questioner in me, in you and in all … Om Shantih shantih shantih …

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

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Sirs,

We are conscious entities experiencing pain and pleasure on the scale of time.

Hari OmThe God was all alone. He for sport became many and out of Himself created Shreeji (Laxmi) and many more like you and me. He created this earth as playground and body as vehicle for players. He created toys (worldly things/ Prakruti) for play. And said... Let us play. While Shreeji remained always in front of Lord ..never lost focus...but others got entangled in the toys so much so that instead considering 'me' to be part of God and 'mine' to be ONLY God...they, out of stupidity and loss of focus (agyaan), started considering toys to be "me" ( body ) and "mine" (worldly things/people). God however never lost sight of them ...and is letting them play since then...as a Father let's his children to play !! The moment player says 'quits' (surrenders) God takes him/her back in His ever-readyopen arms. But player is stupid...stupid... ! Nothing more than that....and suffers, suffers and....suffers !! Pranaams to all Sadhaks.Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.Narottam

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again and again, and yet again..........................

 

the Mind keeps asking, ...........searching for answers ...........

 

and narinder, instead of seeing the Play of that mind, surrenders to the mind ............ becomes mind ...........

 

becomes questions, seeks answers, finds momentary relief, only to become the play of question and answer again

 

again , and again, and yet again .....................Ahhhhh !

 

 

ah, narinder ................. the essence , the very root of the Play, if you could once understand ..............

 

the Play will, then , NOT hold you in thrall................

 

you shall watch the Play ............................ lovingly watch the Play

 

, and watch the Swadharma too coming into play , in the vast Play that Existence IS ............

 

the word that the Beloved lord, gave us ............. Leela ..................

 

the song and dance, the Beloved's Leela , shall entertain narinder , while in the Beloved's consciousness, narinder remains

 

and the Beloved in narinder's consciousness remain .....................

 

 

 

ahh Beloved, time has exhausted narinder with the games that Time plays ..............

 

now, narinder seeks relief from Time ........... lead me unto Timelessness, narinder prays .................AUM

 

 

no more questions, no more answers ..............

 

lead narinder to Him, who in him watches the Play, and becomes the Play

 

lead narinder unto Death of Mind ............. and reveal the Sun

 

the Sun that shines and with Mind's shadows plays !!

 

'' hey mana , tu jot swaroop hain, apna mool pehchaan,'' Nanak says .......................*

 

* O Mind................. thou art yourself the Light , the source, in whose Light you shine ............. pray recognise .........

 

AUM

Narinder

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Mind is under the illusion as if by making efforts, it would reach a state of permanency (pleasure) within its present structure. It behaves mechanically by its default setting (prakriti).

When it sees, understands its inability(surrender) to come to such a state, it gets a touch of non-linear, zero ground, atma.

Mind still remains linear but it understands that it can not come out of its linearity. It is spell bound on seeing the Truth.

That is why every enlightened person including Krishna acts, behaves and expresses the Truth in its own way, though the essence is same.

Truth does not specify what action to take.

Truth sets you free such that you may take ANY ACTION, which includes explanation of the Truth.

The work of illusion is to reveal the Truth and drop.

So the whole thing is zero ground, the ground of infinite possibilities expressing through contrasts.

The active point is only to see the inevitability of the present mind to come to the Truth within its present structure.

All other points are explanations. When one sees the Truth, explanations emerge from one’s background.

The hitch in realizing the Truth is that mind is not able to take the jerk of the fact that one will NEVER KNOW the mystery of existence as a comfortable idea or end. It is under the illusion as if Life is an algebraic expression and some other has found the correct answer.

Y V Chawla

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I failed to understand ATma.,

 

what Atma can do, if body, mind, intellect does not support,

 

if some one get mad, the whole of the body dwindle, even there is

Atma

 

please any one enlighten the Atma, without these Mana, and Budhi

 

 

warm regards

 

suresh Goel

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Dear Sadaks, Athuma assumes affinity with nature when thought arises in Athuman (Which is no gender). Ex: Sri Mahalakshmi in Sri Vaikunt thought about one of the very great saint Sri Vishnu Chitar (Later known as Peria Alwar- means head of the saints) on his devotion of Garlending Sri Ranganatha at Sri Rangam, SHE was given affinity with nature as the saint daughter ANDAL. SHE did best garlends with immense affection and love on God and finally she taken to HIS abode in presence of 100 of people. The song in south India starts, " Pallandu Pallandu---" when the saint and others wittnessed that SHE was sitting on Garuda along with Sri Maha Vishnu. Saint Purander Doss all know. He was Naradh Rishi who thought that why people all going away from Bakthi. Next second Bagavan said, " Oh Naradh go to earth and pearch Bakthi. Like this I can quote many. Same way if an Athuman things negatively, IT assumes affinity with Nature. Only if sadaks ask doubts in this, they can be cleared.B.Sathyanarayan

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Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!This is in reference to comments by Moderatorji, on Chawlaji's observations.As said many times, Atma is Knowing-ness(Consciousness) which IS Being-ness, Existence! This Knowing-ness is reflecting through sense organs, mind, Intellect, and the feeling "I AM", manifesting Itself as the body-mind and seeming world out there in space-time fabric.It is just like electricity reflects in all kinds of gadgets, and manifest itself as light, heat, motion, or other functions.If there are no gadgets to reflect, it remains UN-MANIFEST but never non-existent. Gadgets need electricity to function but electricity doesn't depend on gadgets to exist! We can say that electricity disguises itself as light, heat, motions, just as Consciousness disguises Itself as nature, world of objects, some we call insentient, some sentient with names and forms.Another example: no one can see light if it is not reflected by some obstructions provided by objects. Do we know that we only see reflected light conceived as objects, not the light in itself? Similarly Nature(Prakrity) provides this obstructions for Consciousness to manifest from its Unmanifest Being! Actually Atma is not known through Prakriti, rather, Prakriti is known through Atma, prakriti being the disguise for Atma, the pure Existence! Thus Atma goes unnoticed as though veiled over by names and forms! Atman cannot be known as object of perception or inference, obtained through sense organs and intellect which can provide indirect means of knowledge only! Atma is not an object, a thing. Atma is experiential and direct perception(Aparoksha anubhuti). The very fact that seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, tasting and thinking etc takes place is THE PROOF of Existence of Knowingness-Consciousness called Atma!Having said this, Atma, although attained, is realized only upon the removal of ignorance inherent in the manifestation of body-mind-nature!Possibility of Realization exist only because possibility of ignorance exist! Otherwise, Atma IS all there IS!Nature as insentient cannot be experienced, as only sentient Atma manifests nature extending it as conscious thoughts with names and forms! Finally, even sentient and insentient are relative concepts arising in Atma(consciousness) as Consciousness!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt-----

Chawlaji has been asked to explain 'How can sentient (conscious, chetan) be known through inert (jad) prakriti?' I have an explanation. God exists in everything, everything exists in God. That's what Prahlad understood of our criptures. Prahlad's life shows God responded by coming out as Narasimhah when Prahlad's father kicked the 'jada' wall. Chetan (Consciousness) and Jad are the creation of the same creator. If God as Chetal ultimate can create jad, exploring jad can help get at least an idea of Consciousness. All that is Jad, all that is Prakriti has some properties and Gunas or other inherited in them. If mind and intellect can know the Gunas and properties of jad or the behavior pattern of prakriti even to some extent, then it is also possible for mind and intellect to form an idea of the Great Consciousness. But being in Concsiousness is different from being subject to Prakriti or as part of Prakiti's manifestation as Jad.The notios of consciousness or Jad have all come out of the human mind. These may be simple immagination or observations of the mind or intellect or senses. If the ultimate source of all things including concepts like consciouness and jad are True and that is what we call God, then everything potentially exists in everything as else. All mirackles are possible. If The concepts like Consciouness are not True because they are the products of human mind or intellect, then the question is not very relevant. It is always possible for the human mind to defince concepts like Consciousness and Jad in such a manner that Jad can help know consciousness by cintrast as Day is knowbn by contrasting with Night and vice versa. What Lord Krishna said in Gita went into the ears of Arjun and Sanjay. What Sanjay said to Yudhithir has come through the mind of those who wrote Gita in Sanscrut and other languages based on the influence of their minds. In terpretations vary and can be confusing. Each person is therefore entitled to construct his own Gita. Each such interpretations is legitimate. The ultimate test of each interpretation lies in how it helps Sadhaks to progress on their path towards the Goal of liberation or how it distracts from the progress.Basudeb Sen

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Shree Hari

Ram Ram

That which has been called Atma is inseparable, undivided from Paramatma (Supreme Soul, Supreme Consciousness). Just like we do not know or recognize Paramatma, but can only accept (believe), similarly, believe in atma. Who has come to know that atma has assumed affinity with inert matter (Nature, Prakriti)? Only Mind -Intellect can assume affinity (attach itself) to Prakriti (Nature, matter). Bhagwaan (God) Himself has said this, "Na karoti, na lipyate" (Gita 13:31) Getting tangled up and then attempting to untangle yourself, you will lose precious time as it will be dissipated away. Swamiji has suggested a very good spiritual practice (saadhan), if you like it, then try doing it and see for yourself ("Chup Saadhan" in Sadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu pg 61).

So be it,

Vineet Sarvottam

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Hari OmAgyaan (ignorance) / Stupidity (moorkhata) is the sole cause of Jeeva (Atma) assuming an affinity with Prakruti. Because of this Agyaan/Stupidity only Jeeva accepts body to be me/mine. Once Jeeva assumes affinity - this affinity continues because Jeeva then starts desiring pleasure out of World and worldly things....and suffers, suffers and...suffers! Pranaams to all sadhaks.Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina.Narottam -----------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!First, let us be clear what Atma is! Atma is not something perceived as object of knowledge through senses and mind, like we know everything of this world! Sounds like bad news? Not really, because good news is that one need not know "Atma" as One IS Atman just the way one is. In otherwords, one already exists before one can even ask what is Atma, which is what one IS! One can only forget it or ignore the experience of Being Aware-Conscious by assuming to be somebody/something else like body. Atma is just a name given to our experience of Knowing of Being as "I am"! This feeling of "I am" as it reflects in the body-mind organism, gives rise to an illusory entity "me" due to affinity with a body-mind. If it knows it is illusory, it will shake off affinity, but illusory "me" thinks it is real and the world it perceives is also as real and separate from it!Actually illusory "me" is due to Maya principle so the Divine Leela can go on, just as drama on the stage where one needs to forget one's reality and assume a role assigned by Story writer! This is exactly what happens here!In some human birth, there happens a realization that "oh it's just a drama, and I am not so ans so I am playing the role"!I am One and only Reality which is Consciousness( same as Existence) without any divisions as many. Just as God as consciousness hides in many disguises(Nama and rupa) to play, He also leaves many clues so He can track its route back Home! One of the clues is by worlds of wisdom from scriptures such as Gita, or the likes of Swamiji, saints and sages of their times! Such words are like auto suggestion to wake up ignorant and self forgetful souls to Realize their true Universality of Being!This happened to Arjuna after listening to Lord Krishna in Gita as he proclaimed to Him by saying: Nashto Moha Smritirlabdhava....."O Krishna I have regained the lost memory and realize that Atma is what I am".(Ch 18)Thus Atma or Self gives up all its notions of likes-dislikes/attachments/fears etc acquired due to thinking itself as body and gets liberated. Now body becomes its tool to serve entire nature. Nature is also Divine!In summary affinity with world is not real, but false taken as real. If it was real, no one can be free from Bondage!Namaskar................Pratap Bhatt

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Atma is sometning that exist in the Creation, so is Prakriti. Atma has certainchracteristics, so does Prakriti. Both must therefore be created by the Creator,the ultimate single source from which everything can be traced back. So, if Atmaand Prakriti are the creation of the same source, the Creator, they would bydefintion have some affinity of ultimate source.The chracters of Atma and Prakiti are also derived from the same source So,these two would have chracteristics that would draw them into some relationshipof attraction and/ or repulsion or none interaction or inter-relation. If weobserve that that they have interaction because atma is everywhere and even in ahuman body and so is prakriti. So, one can influence the other or be influencedby each other. The affinity is therefore is tge very design of the of their sameultimate source, the Creator. If Creator is God and God is the ultimate source of everything including Atmaand Pakriti, it is God who has designed the affinity of Atma and Prakriti.If Atma was not influenced by Prakriti, Atma would be nothing but the Creator,it source. Prakriti plays its dance as per the properties imparted to it by theSource, the ultimate God. Atma, according to the properties imparted to it byCreator, the God, can just witness Prakriti's dance. As a witness it may seemto get overwhelmed by the dance of prakriti, though in reality it remainstotally unaffected. When Atma is totally unaffected by the dance of theprakriti, Atma assimed the exact property of God the Paramatma. Leberation fromthe ipact of the forces of Prakriti or Self Realisation occurs when the theindividual realizes that he/ she is the Atma, unaffected by the Pakrit, the egoand desires vanishes and equanamity rules: the gross physical body is stillsubject to Prakriti but Atma rules makes the senses and the mind rest inequnimity without being affected by Prakriti's impact in the form of desires oreogo. Body does not act any longer due the influence of ego or mind. The illusion that Prakriti helps generate in the form od developingidentity of ego and desires to drive the mind and senses, no longer operates.That is liberation or Salvation that the Sadhaka had been concentrating on asthe only desire. When Salvation occurs ven that desire also goes because that isthe property of Atma or the Self. why God has created such a complicated design, only God will tell you one day.But it seems when Atma is always happy, Prakiti causes senses to feel bothhappinss and sorrow depending on whether desires are fulfilled or not.Basudeb Sen---------------------------

Atma is known through prakriti. There is no other way to know, sir. Y V Chawla-----------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Chawlaji, How can sentient (conscious, chetan) be known through inert (jad) prakriti? Please explain? Do you see mind/intellect as part of prakriti (Nature)? Are you saying that atma can be known through mind/intellect and that there is no other way? Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

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Shree Hari Ram Ram

Amitji, Kindly read the following sadhak messages on this topic and if you have any doubts you may ask for clarification from the sadhaks of this forum. Thank you,

What binds the Soul, the Spirit ?

sadhaka/message/1730

What binds the Soul, the Spirit - Part 2 ?

sadhaka/message/1731

The Self is Naturally Liberated (11.2.2005)

sadhaka/message/682

Egoism and It's Release

sadhaka/message/2005

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

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