Without Desire or Ambition, One is a Vegetable, Not Human

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But without desire or ambition you are a vegetable, not human.

So this analysis (see below - Posting of Daily Sadhaka message) is wrong. It is

not what Krishna taught.

 

Anil Bhanot

 

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Shree Hari Ram Ram

 

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. Kindly point out which particular

sentence / message is wrong and is not what Krishna taught. When you disagree,

it will be helpful to be more specific, so it clarify and make it easy for the

respondents.

 

Please also read extensive discussion in 2009 on this topic -

 

Without Desires Nothing will be Attained

/message/3183

 

Sincerely, Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

 

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Desire is the operative element of the human mind from moment to moment.

Desire can not lead to fulfilment.

Desire is sense of lack. Sense of lack can not be fulfilled, what ever you may

hold or amass.

 

When one is aware, lack to fulfilment is system generated movement. Not that

there is lack and you are to fulfill.

 

There arises lack and there arises fulfilment. One sees the automation of the

scheme of the Universe.

 

'You and your death can not meet at any point', seeing this fact takes one to

realise the self evident point of immortality.

 

Y V Chawla

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HERE ARE SOME OTHER RESPONSES FROM A SIMILAR TOPIC IN 2008 and BEYOND-

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namste!

All answers given on this are very revealing and full

of wisdom. We need to contemplate on all such answers

until they resonate in us, become us!

I would build upon them as follows:

As Krishna says, four types of desires are to be

pursued, Artha for livelihood to survive in the

sansara, by means available within

Dharma-righteousness, fulfilling Kama the natural

desires again guided by Dharma, and finally all such

desires directed to Moksha, liberation. So they are

all Impersonal desires for seeking Truth, not personal

ego driven desires which originate from our lack or

Apurnata, the result of indentification with body,

mind, intellect, religion, nationality etc etc.

Only the personal desires need to be killed; killed

in the sense they have to be understood as coming from

Ego, so cannot be in line with Dharma, or Moksha! They

get dropped by such deep understanding, not by doing

of a doer!

Namaskar!........Pratap lovingly

 

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dear all,

 

desire even if fulfilled only fuels more desire....

 

friendly regards

s.seshadri

 

 

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Dear Friends

 

An important message is contained in verse 21 of 16th Chapter

as under:-

Desires ( lust, passion), anger, and greed are the three main gates

to the hell because they destroy the soul and as such should be

given up.

Desires, anger and greed creates hell in this life and whenever

anyone of the above is active in our life we feel suffering of

hell. Whenever anyone of the above takes possession of us, we are

not in a position to think clearly.

Understanding of the presence of kama, krodh and lobh in our life

and the supportive structure built for their nourishment will enable

us to start process of giving up the same.

Desires –basic question to be asked is `what do we want and why do

we want'. One has to observe and find out what desires creates hell

and what desires create heaven.

Regards,

A K Jain

 

 

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Dear Co-devotee, You yourself have provided the

> answer by saying that desires are of 4 types, the

> last being for Moksha. So the desire to have no

> desires or kill all desires will fall under that

> category and hence should not cause any concern.

> G.Vaidyanathan

 

 

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Loving Divine,

> Pranam.

> All desires - good or bad, to do or not to do, have

> to go eventually. The desire is a desire and it is

> binding, however, one can not attain such state

> immediately. Just like to remove a thorn one has to

> use another thorn and when the thorn is removed, we

> throw away both the thorns. Just like to climb up

> we use staircases but once we reach top, we forget

> all about staircases. Just like to cross a river,

> we use a boat but once reached the other side, we do

> not carry the boat with us. Similarly, in the

> beginning stages of spiritual practices, we try to

> kill our so called bad or harming desires with the

> favorable desires that help us progress but once we

> attain the state where it becomes part of our nature

> we no longer need to make any efforts. To do or not

> to do type desires drops off, actions are all

> natural done by our higher self without any

> expectations. There are no efforts involved from

> us. Please contemplate on BG 18:66 - sarvadharmaan

> parityajya...

> Hope this helps...

> humble regards,

> always at Thy Lotus Feet

Manjula Patel

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Shree Raman Maharshi, has given a solution to this dilema. He has asked us to

find the source from where does the thought arise, which in turn leads us to the

self - the real I, and in so doing the thought vanishes and its seeds are

destroyed, once and for all.

 

Regards

 

from,

 

Hitesh Modi

 

--\

--

 

Desires are a need of satisfaction. None other can judge whether is a desire

right or wrong. But satisfaction is like a journey in infinite space, when you

reach there, you find a next destination. It is therefore necessary to have

TatVA Gyan (knowledge of the essense) so that satisfaction is reached without a

need of desires. The work or Karma will be then directed towards TatVa Gyana

rather than in a direction to gain satisfaction by fulfilling desires.

 

Buddha, Einstein, Kabir, Gandhi, Tulsi Das, Mother Teresa are master pieces of

life used in understanding of the TatVa Gyana. Karma or work starts only after

this state of mind; and any other work by us for seeking livelihood or security

or fame are just called Vyavasaya by Sri Krishna in the Bhagwat Gita.

 

Regards

 

K G

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In your recent Sadhak message on DESIRES it was shared that

Desires of four types - - Artha (Wealth); Dharma (Righteousness), " Kaama "

(Passion) and Moksha (Salvation).... and about Gita says " Desires are

insatiable " and He asks Arjuna to kill this enemy i.e. Desire (Gita 3: 37-43).

My question is - Isn't a thought not to have desires or to kill desires it self

also a desire? So how do you explain this desire? Please clarify. Thank you.

sukanya chhabra

 

 

------------------

 

|| Shree Hari ||

Ram Ram

 

28th January 2010, Thursday, Magh Shukla Trayodashi, Vikram Samvat 2066

 

If there is no desire what-so-ever within, then on attainment of worldly things

there would not be any pleasure, and on not acquiring these or losing these

there would not be any cause for pain and sorrow. It is only due to desires that

one experiences both pleasure (happiness) and pain (unhappiness). These are

pairs of opposites, which lead to bondage in this world. In reality, both

pleasure and pain are one and the same. Pleasure is as such another name for

pain, because the reason for pleasure and pain are - " ye hi sansparshjaa bhogaa

dukhayonay eva te. " (Gita 5/22). " All pleasures born of contact with worldly

objects, are the cause of unhappiness. " If a person has no desire whatsoever,

then he rises above both pain and pleasure and attains bliss (anand). Just as

the Sun, has neither day nor night in it, rather it is only constant

illumination (light all the time), similarly in Bliss, there is neither

pleasure, nor pain, rather it is bliss at all times. On experiencing this bliss

(anand) just once, there is no feeling of deficiency ever with regards to the

bliss, because that bliss is axiomatic, eternal and immutable (without any

modifications).

 

If it were possible to fulfill all desires, then we would strive to fulfill the

desire to live, and if it were possible to save oneself from death, then we

would endeavor to be saved from (to escape) death. But it is everyone's

experience that all desires can never be fulfilled, and every being that is

born, cannot be saved from death, then what is the gain in having a desire to

live or fearing death? On having desire to live, birth and death cycle will

continue, and the desire to live will also subsist ! Therefore to become

immortal while living, it is essential to renounce desires.

 

I am not the body, because this body is changing every moment, but I (Swayam,

Self) is constant there. If we were not constant there, then who would have the

knowledge of this changing body? Knowledge of the changing is only possible by

one who is not changing. This body is not mine, because I have no control over

it, and I cannot keep it according to my wishes, nor can I make changes in it as

I please, nor can I keep it with me forever. In this manner, when we do not

accept the body as " I " or " mine " then the desire to keep it alive will also not

remain.

 

When there is no desire to keep it alive, then before departing from this body,

one will realize immortality which is self-evident. " The unreal has no existence

and the real never ceases to be " - " Naasato Vidhyate Bhaavo, Naabhaavo vidhyate

satah " (Gita 2/16).

 

Truth is truth and untruth is untruth. Therefore there is no fear of the truth

or the untruth. If we are afraid of death, then too the body shall die, and

without fear also it shall die. Only the mortal dies. So what is the new loss?

Therefore it is useless to be afraid of death. From " All is God " in English pg

67 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

Ram Ram

 

For ENGLISH WEBSITE please visit: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net

For full online discourses in Hindi: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

[Guest guest]

But without desire or ambition you are a vegetable, not human.So this analysis (see below - Posting of Daily Sadhaka message) is wrong. It isnot what Krishna taught.Anil Bhanot--------

NEW POSTING

Dear Seekers of Truth, Namaste!First of all, the message of Swamiji is so profound that unless one reads between the lines with openness and try to understand, one cannot appreciate it! It is very much in line with Lord Krishna's teaching in his own experience!Secondly, my deep appreciation of the posting of Chawlaji. It is very profound, of which the statement "'You and your death can not meet at any point', seeing this fact takes one to realize the self evident point of immortality." is worth noting!Desire is inherent in limitations of any kind such as objects. One such object is body-mind that one considers oneself to be!With that limitation, to fulfill oneself, one chases the objects of the world also limited when considered independently existing apart from SELF one IS! In absence of such self imposed, unquestioned, limitations upon oneself, one loses all identities. This is explained by Swamiji in the same message by giving various example of false identifications!In such a scenario, there remains only desire(s) without there being a "one who desires!" This is the Scheme of the Universe desiring through its many instruments, so a specific instrument is not vegetable, but simply a normal human being carrying out impersonal will of his Master! This is, as though, it is!Namaskar................Pratap Bhatt

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Hari OmIt is a fallacy and nothing except a fallacy to suggest that without desire one is vegetable and not even human. As if by desire we get human birth; we get caste, creed, colour as we desire; we get parents as we desire; we get worldly things/situations/circumstances as we desire; we die as we desire..... And if desire is not there you become vegetable.. You can't do any karma !! What kind of desire is there when blood circulates in the body, or breathing takes place? What kind of desire is there preceding a sickness? No body desires to die...but do you not die? Is death cessation of desire? If yes, why do you let it? If no, how you become vegetable then ? Had without desires human body would have turned from live to vegetable..how in Gita Lord Krishna would have preached us to become desireless ? Was He even not that educated ? Karma...has no essential corelation with desire. You can do karma without having any desires also ! You do karma of visiting an ailing relative - did you desire that he falls sick ? Hence to look at a suggestion of Saints and Sages, Gita etc with such angle and approach is simply deciding not to do a recommended deed for one's own welfare. So far so good. But to tell others too and thereby discourage them... is bit too much. Tell us what Krishna taught ! No Divine Sadhaks ! Nothings happens to you except cessation of sorrows when you relinquish desires. No vegetableness takes place. You become better ...you become 'swastha' !!Pranaams to all Sadhaks.Sarve Bhavantu SukhinaNarottam ------------------------

Shree Hari. Ram Ram.

 

Krishna states in Gita that the yogi attains the Supreme state and there is nothing to gain. Actually, there is no need to do any action or not do any action. Still, yogi acts for benefit of others.

After reaching this Supreme state, there is no more ambition or desire. Currently, we are looking for things outside. The outside world keeps on changing and therefore, our desires change. But Krishna asks us to look inwards. When we attain inner happiness and bliss, then there is nothing to gain from outside world.

 

In our current state, we need carrot of achieve something to drive us to do work. Sometimes, this carrot is money, wealth or some object. Sometimes, it is more spiritual like freedom from anxiety, peace etc.

Since we are driven so much by desires, it is difficult to comprehend state without desire or ambition.

 

Gita tells us that it is possible to attain state where you will be happy and satisfied from within and you don't need anything more and therefore, there is no desire/ ambition.

Unfortunately only very few can attain it. I have been trying to practice it for years and still, I am driven by desires etc.

 

Good news is that I have found Swamiji books explaining these topics in a simple and rational way like nitya anitya vivek (discrimination between what is permanent and what is perishable).

Please select some book and read it carefully. I think you will get answers. Please use this opportunity to go more deeper within by reading Swamiji's books.

Hopefully, one day we all be able to reach such state.

 

Regards,

Gaurav Mittal

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Desires are common to all beings. The desires work independently through theGunas in the body cells, DNA, RNA, etc. The Animals have desires. Vegetablesalso have desires to grow operating through the working of their cells when liveand deire to get rotten sometime or when cut out from plants for human andanimal food intake. Human beings are therefore some from of Animals andVegetables.. What distinguishes a human from animal or vegetble is that thehuman has also cells inside that can work against desire. The human being oftendoes not act against one kind of desire like to enjoy sex or food or comfort adallow the desire to know the Craor , the Creation and the creative proces. Thosewh have such strong desires to know may become scientists and when they give upall sensual desires but the only desire to know the Creator, they becomesuperhuman beings. nd, when such superhuman beings realize the god, they do othave any more desire. They do everything without beng connected to desire. They become one with the Creator and God. Vegetables do notbecome one with the God, nor do animals.Try being vegetable a human would not become an attractive vegetable. By givingup desires and ambitions, a human being will become more attractive to otherhuman beings and will enjoy greater peace and many other things (that otherhuman beings desire and may or may not get fulfilled) without desiring them. Basudeb Sen--

 

 

Shree Hari. Ram Ram.

 

I would like to add another point.

 

In spiritual journey, we make gradual advancements. Sometimes, this may take many births.

Right now, I see myself as body and whatever I do, I cannot deny the fact that I give importance to outside world. So, it is very difficult to attain the state without desires.

I need to be honest with myself and act at my level. If I try to imitate the advanced state, then I will suffer and act foolishly and in the end, I won't attain any spiritual advancement.

 

It is important to go gradually. One needs to look inwards and look at the world. Look at the reality. See what is permanent in this world. Look at what is changing. Among this change, self stays.

Go more deeper and see what self wants. Does it want to die or be eternal? Does it want fleeting happiness or permanent happiness? And so on. In this way, understand your own self and understand the world.

Choose a path which suits you (karma, jnana or bhakti yog). Understand Parmatma and see that you are part of Him. Use Swamiji's books and knowledge as a guide to help you.

In this way, you will understand more.

 

I agree with you that without above understanding, a person without desire / ambition is vegetable. May be you are seeing desires as bad and you want to disagree with that fact!

Swamiji is not saying that desire's are bad.

 

Swamiji is saying that in the Supreme state, you are established in your eternal self and experience sat (eternity), chid (knowledge) and anand (bliss). In that state, there is no desire as one does not attain anything from perishable inert matter due to being established in eternal self. Understand that in that state there is no desire.

 

Try to gradually seek above state without attributing anything as good or bad.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Regards,

Gaurav Mittal

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It is ok to have desires......but whose desires, which desires, what quality of desires?

Understanding the following could give some clarity:

 

1. It is a grand play (Leela).......and everything is just happening......it is good to just remain at your happy natural state and witness everything happening.......

 

2. We all desire to be happy....all the time....feel contended...satisfied...fulfilled.....then we must choose the desires accordingly..

 

3. A desire is like a prayer and all prayers get attended to....get fulfilled if we have the patience and faith... but we need to understand which desires bring us happiness, which don't......what brings us lasting happiness....highest form of happiness...

 

4. A desire could be just personal, or it can be impersonal, or it could be the highest to be divine...moksha....

to attain Moksha....actually....even desire to attain moksha has to go.....it is state of Maun...complete silence..

Higher the desire, better are the results.... Higher desires means the lower desires will be automatically fulfilled...or will become meaningless....

 

5. Who am I? .....the begger or the desire fulfiller....? Whose play is it? Whose desire?

 

It is a wonderful world, a wonderful creation...........desires or no desires....happiness is the key.......

Start with happiness......keep it all the time......live in bless.......create.....express...expand.....

Sushil Jain

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Dear Sadaks,

What Sri Krishna taught is this. DO NOT DESIRE for neighbor's wife, others money, accumulate wealth, to enjoy more with sensory organs, destroy your neighbor peace, to make others listen to what you want, etc etc. DESIRE at the present- seek for today food, care to parents/wife/children & neighbor, desire to have a transport that fits your budget, (Not looks and for other to envy or pride), desire to be hale and healthy, then eat what Geetha says (In Geetha it is said any food kept more than 4 hours frigged or not is bad), desire to earn by hard work, but not by easy money by bribe, cheating etc. Sri Anil Bhanot desire that sounds positive in this posting is NOT wrong, but desire negative posted is coming under GREED, which resembles DESIRE. At one stage of certain age, after having gone through all the rightful pleasure of life span up to 60 years, having grandchildren, then it is necessary to stop desires and seek solitude, which many Grahastas/Kings done in the past. Otherwise one will desire to stay here without death, which IS not possible. But one who dropped desire after Grahasasramam, enters into varnasaramam gets elevated. Example: So many were taken with body to heavens in 16th century

B.Sathyanarayan.

--

 

Dear friend,

Namaskaram.Desire(kama), krodha(anger)and lobha are the gates of hell and they cause damage to sadhaka so they are to be given up.Of these three gates desire is the big gate and the other two are small gates.An unfulfilled desire causes anger and the anger not in our controle causes damage.If the desire is ful filled then comes lobha.This lobha causes envy by others on what you possess.So in either case desire causes destruction. So a sadhaka should always think about needs not desires.Why should you compare yourself with a tree? There are Billions of people on the planet living happily thinking about needs not desires. Happiness lies in contentment not possessionBadri Narayana Miriyala

 

---Shree Hari Ram RamThank you for bringing this to our attention. Kindly point out which particularsentence / message is wrong and is not what Krishna taught. When you disagree,it will be helpful to be more specific, so it clarify and make it easy for therespondents.Please also read extensive discussion in 2009 on this topic -Without Desires Nothing will be Attained/message/3183Sincerely, Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------Desire is the operative element of the human mind from moment to moment.Desire can not lead to fulfilment.Desire is sense of lack. Sense of lack can not be fulfilled, what ever you mayhold or amass.When one is aware, lack to fulfilment is system generated movement. Not thatthere is lack and you are to fulfill.There arises lack and there arises fulfilment. One sees the automation of thescheme of the Universe.'You and your death can not meet at any point', seeing this fact takes one torealise the self evident point of immortality.Y V Chawla---------------HERE ARE SOME OTHER RESPONSES FROM A SIMILAR TOPIC IN 2008 and BEYOND-Dear Sadhakas, Namste!All answers given on this are very revealing and fullof wisdom. We need to contemplate on all such answersuntil they resonate in us, become us!I would build upon them as follows:As Krishna says, four types of desires are to bepursued, Artha for livelihood to survive in thesansara, by means available withinDharma-righteousness, fulfilling Kama the naturaldesires again guided by Dharma, and finally all suchdesires directed to Moksha, liberation. So they areall Impersonal desires for seeking Truth, not personalego driven desires which originate from our lack orApurnata, the result of indentification with body,mind, intellect, religion, nationality etc etc.Only the personal desires need to be killed; killedin the sense they have to be understood as coming fromEgo, so cannot be in line with Dharma, or Moksha! Theyget dropped by such deep understanding, not by doingof a doer!Namaskar!........Pratap lovingly---------dear all,desire even if fulfilled only fuels more desire....friendly regardss.seshadri------------------Dear FriendsAn important message is contained in verse 21 of 16th Chapteras under:-Desires ( lust, passion), anger, and greed are the three main gatesto the hell because they destroy the soul and as such should begiven up.Desires, anger and greed creates hell in this life and wheneveranyone of the above is active in our life we feel suffering ofhell. Whenever anyone of the above takes possession of us, we arenot in a position to think clearly.Understanding of the presence of kama, krodh and lobh in our lifeand the supportive structure built for their nourishment will enableus to start process of giving up the same.Desires –basic question to be asked is `what do we want and why dowe want'. One has to observe and find out what desires creates helland what desires create heaven.Regards,A K Jain--------Dear Co-devotee, You yourself have provided the> answer by saying that desires are of 4 types, the> last being for Moksha. So the desire to have no> desires or kill all desires will fall under that> category and hence should not cause any concern.> G.Vaidyanathan-------Loving Divine,> Pranam.> All desires - good or bad, to do or not to do, have> to go eventually. The desire is a desire and it is> binding, however, one can not attain such state> immediately. Just like to remove a thorn one has to> use another thorn and when the thorn is removed, we> throw away both the thorns. Just like to climb up> we use staircases but once we reach top, we forget> all about staircases. Just like to cross a river,> we use a boat but once reached the other side, we do> not carry the boat with us. Similarly, in the> beginning stages of spiritual practices, we try to> kill our so called bad or harming desires with the> favorable desires that help us progress but once we> attain the state where it becomes part of our nature> we no longer need to make any efforts. To do or not> to do type desires drops off, actions are all> natural done by our higher self without any> expectations. There are no efforts involved from> us. Please contemplate on BG 18:66 - sarvadharmaan> parityajya...> Hope this helps...> humble regards,> always at Thy Lotus FeetManjula Patel------------------Shree Raman Maharshi, has given a solution to this dilema. He has asked us tofind the source from where does the thought arise, which in turn leads us to theself - the real I, and in so doing the thought vanishes and its seeds aredestroyed, once and for all.Regardsfrom,Hitesh Modi--\--Desires are a need of satisfaction. None other can judge whether is a desireright or wrong. But satisfaction is like a journey in infinite space, when youreach there, you find a next destination. It is therefore necessary to haveTatVA Gyan (knowledge of the essense) so that satisfaction is reached without aneed of desires. The work or Karma will be then directed towards TatVa Gyanarather than in a direction to gain satisfaction by fulfilling desires.Buddha, Einstein, Kabir, Gandhi, Tulsi Das, Mother Teresa are master pieces oflife used in understanding of the TatVa Gyana. Karma or work starts only afterthis state of mind; and any other work by us for seeking livelihood or securityor fame are just called Vyavasaya by Sri Krishna in the Bhagwat Gita.RegardsK G------------------In your recent Sadhak message on DESIRES it was shared thatDesires of four types - - Artha (Wealth); Dharma (Righteousness), "Kaama"(Passion) and Moksha (Salvation).... and about Gita says "Desires areinsatiable" and He asks Arjuna to kill this enemy i.e. Desire (Gita 3: 37-43).My question is - Isn't a thought not to have desires or to kill desires it selfalso a desire? So how do you explain this desire? Please clarify. Thank you.sukanya chhabra------------------|| Shree Hari ||Ram Ram28th January 2010, Thursday, Magh Shukla Trayodashi, Vikram Samvat 2066If there is no desire what-so-ever within, then on attainment of worldly thingsthere would not be any pleasure, and on not acquiring these or losing thesethere would not be any cause for pain and sorrow. It is only due to desires thatone experiences both pleasure (happiness) and pain (unhappiness). These arepairs of opposites, which lead to bondage in this world. In reality, bothpleasure and pain are one and the same. Pleasure is as such another name forpain, because the reason for pleasure and pain are - "ye hi sansparshjaa bhogaadukhayonay eva te." (Gita 5/22). "All pleasures born of contact with worldlyobjects, are the cause of unhappiness." If a person has no desire whatsoever,then he rises above both pain and pleasure and attains bliss (anand). Just asthe Sun, has neither day nor night in it, rather it is only constantillumination (light all the time), similarly in Bliss, there is neitherpleasure, nor pain, rather it is bliss at all times. On experiencing this bliss(anand) just once, there is no feeling of deficiency ever with regards to thebliss, because that bliss is axiomatic, eternal and immutable (without anymodifications).If it were possible to fulfill all desires, then we would strive to fulfill thedesire to live, and if it were possible to save oneself from death, then wewould endeavor to be saved from (to escape) death. But it is everyone'sexperience that all desires can never be fulfilled, and every being that isborn, cannot be saved from death, then what is the gain in having a desire tolive or fearing death? On having desire to live, birth and death cycle willcontinue, and the desire to live will also subsist ! Therefore to becomeimmortal while living, it is essential to renounce desires.I am not the body, because this body is changing every moment, but I (Swayam,Self) is constant there. If we were not constant there, then who would have theknowledge of this changing body? Knowledge of the changing is only possible byone who is not changing. This body is not mine, because I have no control overit, and I cannot keep it according to my wishes, nor can I make changes in it asI please, nor can I keep it with me forever. In this manner, when we do notaccept the body as "I" or "mine" then the desire to keep it alive will also notremain.When there is no desire to keep it alive, then before departing from this body,one will realize immortality which is self-evident. "The unreal has no existenceand the real never ceases to be" - "Naasato Vidhyate Bhaavo, Naabhaavo vidhyatesatah" (Gita 2/16).Truth is truth and untruth is untruth. Therefore there is no fear of the truthor the untruth. If we are afraid of death, then too the body shall die, andwithout fear also it shall die. Only the mortal dies. So what is the new loss?Therefore it is useless to be afraid of death. From "All is God" in English pg67 by Swami RamsukhdasjiRam RamFor ENGLISH WEBSITE please visit: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.netFor full online discourses in Hindi: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

[Guest guest]

But without desire or ambition you are a vegetable, not human.So this analysis (see below - Posting of Daily Sadhaka message) is wrong. It isnot what Krishna taught.Anil Bhanot--------

NEW POSTING

 

Hari OmMoreover, there is no denying the fact that there is difference between what is desire (kama) as per Gita and what are necessities/goals of human birth. A human gets born with desire to become SATCHIDANAND- to be all knowing, all doing, all getting- to be fearless and thus immortal, to be desireless thus ever happy , to be Peaceful. The Jeeva is ever running to fulfill those desires only. But these desires are not Kamas ( as defined in Gitaji and by Swamiji and by all Scriptures). These are 'Abhilashas' , the subhecchas (auspicious desires ) , the needs, goals and the very purpose of human life.Desire (Kama) is always with reference to Jagat/inert/ Prakruti . And no one becomes vegetable if one throws away such stupidity ( desires necessarily are stupidities) and becomes immortal, fearless, all knowing, and "absolutely" happy. Ever happy. Ananda. Relativityless ONLY ANANDA.Pranaams to all Sadhaks.Sarve Bhavantu SukhinaNarottam ---

Dear Sadaks,

They were Swamijis who appeared like they were vegatables, but they were highly protected by Bhagavan and they were away from the clutches of earthly effects. 1) Sadashiva Brasmendral who was buried under sand for days, but was very healthy and excellent. Adi Sankara was sitting in one position for days. Viswanatha Bhram who lived in 18th century end to 19th century was without food or water for months. These mahathumas were desire-less looking like mad man. There are many more. B.Sathyanarayan

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Shree Hari Ram Ram

Shri Anil Bhanotji !

How do you know that vegetable is desireless ?

Vineet Sarvottam

 

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Desire & Ambition

 

It is disingenous to suggest that having no desire or ambition is a good thing when Swami ji ( and his supporters) are also saying that everyone should aim for achieving peace, ananda, freedom from anxiety. Is it not in itself a desire, an ambition? Why then is desire wrong? The answer is not in Geeta but in theory of Evolution. Everyone has an in built desire to be better that their parents or older siblings. That desire brings a positive chane and everyone evolves. This is the answer to the question.

Dinesh Varma

Kant

UK

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Dear Seekers of Truth, Namaste!First of all, the message of Swamiji is so profound that unless one reads between the lines with openness and try to understand, one cannot appreciate it! It is very much in line with Lord Krishna's teaching in his own experience!Secondly, my deep appreciation of the posting of Chawlaji. It is very profound, of which the statement "'You and your death can not meet at any point', seeing this fact takes one to realize the self evident point of immortality." is worth noting!Desire is inherent in limitations of any kind such as objects. One such object is body-mind that one considers oneself to be!With that limitation, to fulfill oneself, one chases the objects of the world also limited when considered independently existing apart from SELF one IS! In absence of such self imposed, unquestioned, limitations upon oneself, one loses all identities. This is explained by Swamiji in the same message by giving various example of false identifications!In such a scenario, there remains only desire(s) without there being a "one who desires!" This is the Scheme of the Universe desiring through its many instruments, so a specific instrument is not vegetable, but simply a normal human being carrying out impersonal will of his Master! This is, as though, it is!Namaskar................Pratap Bhatt

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Hari OmIt is a fallacy and nothing except a fallacy to suggest that without desire one is vegetable and not even human. As if by desire we get human birth; we get caste, creed, colour as we desire; we get parents as we desire; we get worldly things/situations/circumstances as we desire; we die as we desire..... And if desire is not there you become vegetable.. You can't do any karma !! What kind of desire is there when blood circulates in the body, or breathing takes place? What kind of desire is there preceding a sickness? No body desires to die...but do you not die? Is death cessation of desire? If yes, why do you let it? If no, how you become vegetable then ? Had without desires human body would have turned from live to vegetable..how in Gita Lord Krishna would have preached us to become desireless ? Was He even not that educated ? Karma...has no essential corelation with desire. You can do karma without having any desires also ! You do karma of visiting an ailing relative - did you desire that he falls sick ? Hence to look at a suggestion of Saints and Sages, Gita etc with such angle and approach is simply deciding not to do a recommended deed for one's own welfare. So far so good. But to tell others too and thereby discourage them... is bit too much. Tell us what Krishna taught ! No Divine Sadhaks ! Nothings happens to you except cessation of sorrows when you relinquish desires. No vegetableness takes place. You become better ...you become 'swastha' !!Pranaams to all Sadhaks.Sarve Bhavantu SukhinaNarottam ------------------------

Shree Hari. Ram Ram.

 

Krishna states in Gita that the yogi attains the Supreme state and there is nothing to gain. Actually, there is no need to do any action or not do any action. Still, yogi acts for benefit of others.

After reaching this Supreme state, there is no more ambition or desire. Currently, we are looking for things outside. The outside world keeps on changing and therefore, our desires change. But Krishna asks us to look inwards. When we attain inner happiness and bliss, then there is nothing to gain from outside world.

 

In our current state, we need carrot of achieve something to drive us to do work. Sometimes, this carrot is money, wealth or some object. Sometimes, it is more spiritual like freedom from anxiety, peace etc.

Since we are driven so much by desires, it is difficult to comprehend state without desire or ambition.

 

Gita tells us that it is possible to attain state where you will be happy and satisfied from within and you don't need anything more and therefore, there is no desire/ ambition.

Unfortunately only very few can attain it. I have been trying to practice it for years and still, I am driven by desires etc.

 

Good news is that I have found Swamiji books explaining these topics in a simple and rational way like nitya anitya vivek (discrimination between what is permanent and what is perishable).

Please select some book and read it carefully. I think you will get answers. Please use this opportunity to go more deeper within by reading Swamiji's books.

Hopefully, one day we all be able to reach such state.

 

Regards,

Gaurav Mittal

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Desires are common to all beings. The desires work independently through theGunas in the body cells, DNA, RNA, etc. The Animals have desires. Vegetablesalso have desires to grow operating through the working of their cells when liveand deire to get rotten sometime or when cut out from plants for human andanimal food intake. Human beings are therefore some from of Animals andVegetables.. What distinguishes a human from animal or vegetble is that thehuman has also cells inside that can work against desire. The human being oftendoes not act against one kind of desire like to enjoy sex or food or comfort adallow the desire to know the Craor , the Creation and the creative proces. Thosewh have such strong desires to know may become scientists and when they give upall sensual desires but the only desire to know the Creator, they becomesuperhuman beings. nd, when such superhuman beings realize the god, they do othave any more desire. They do everything without beng connected to desire. They become one with the Creator and God. Vegetables do notbecome one with the God, nor do animals.Try being vegetable a human would not become an attractive vegetable. By givingup desires and ambitions, a human being will become more attractive to otherhuman beings and will enjoy greater peace and many other things (that otherhuman beings desire and may or may not get fulfilled) without desiring them. Basudeb Sen--

 

 

Shree Hari. Ram Ram.

 

I would like to add another point.

 

In spiritual journey, we make gradual advancements. Sometimes, this may take many births.

Right now, I see myself as body and whatever I do, I cannot deny the fact that I give importance to outside world. So, it is very difficult to attain the state without desires.

I need to be honest with myself and act at my level. If I try to imitate the advanced state, then I will suffer and act foolishly and in the end, I won't attain any spiritual advancement.

 

It is important to go gradually. One needs to look inwards and look at the world. Look at the reality. See what is permanent in this world. Look at what is changing. Among this change, self stays.

Go more deeper and see what self wants. Does it want to die or be eternal? Does it want fleeting happiness or permanent happiness? And so on. In this way, understand your own self and understand the world.

Choose a path which suits you (karma, jnana or bhakti yog). Understand Parmatma and see that you are part of Him. Use Swamiji's books and knowledge as a guide to help you.

In this way, you will understand more.

 

I agree with you that without above understanding, a person without desire / ambition is vegetable. May be you are seeing desires as bad and you want to disagree with that fact!

Swamiji is not saying that desire's are bad.

 

Swamiji is saying that in the Supreme state, you are established in your eternal self and experience sat (eternity), chid (knowledge) and anand (bliss). In that state, there is no desire as one does not attain anything from perishable inert matter due to being established in eternal self. Understand that in that state there is no desire.

 

Try to gradually seek above state without attributing anything as good or bad.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Regards,

Gaurav Mittal

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It is ok to have desires......but whose desires, which desires, what quality of desires?

Understanding the following could give some clarity:

 

1. It is a grand play (Leela).......and everything is just happening......it is good to just remain at your happy natural state and witness everything happening.......

 

2. We all desire to be happy....all the time....feel contended...satisfied...fulfilled.....then we must choose the desires accordingly..

 

3. A desire is like a prayer and all prayers get attended to....get fulfilled if we have the patience and faith... but we need to understand which desires bring us happiness, which don't......what brings us lasting happiness....highest form of happiness...

 

4. A desire could be just personal, or it can be impersonal, or it could be the highest to be divine...moksha....

to attain Moksha....actually....even desire to attain moksha has to go.....it is state of Maun...complete silence..

Higher the desire, better are the results.... Higher desires means the lower desires will be automatically fulfilled...or will become meaningless....

 

5. Who am I? .....the begger or the desire fulfiller....? Whose play is it? Whose desire?

 

It is a wonderful world, a wonderful creation...........desires or no desires....happiness is the key.......

Start with happiness......keep it all the time......live in bless.......create.....express...expand.....

Sushil Jain

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Dear Sadaks,

What Sri Krishna taught is this. DO NOT DESIRE for neighbor's wife, others money, accumulate wealth, to enjoy more with sensory organs, destroy your neighbor peace, to make others listen to what you want, etc etc. DESIRE at the present- seek for today food, care to parents/wife/children & neighbor, desire to have a transport that fits your budget, (Not looks and for other to envy or pride), desire to be hale and healthy, then eat what Geetha says (In Geetha it is said any food kept more than 4 hours frigged or not is bad), desire to earn by hard work, but not by easy money by bribe, cheating etc. Sri Anil Bhanot desire that sounds positive in this posting is NOT wrong, but desire negative posted is coming under GREED, which resembles DESIRE. At one stage of certain age, after having gone through all the rightful pleasure of life span up to 60 years, having grandchildren, then it is necessary to stop desires and seek solitude, which many Grahastas/Kings done in the past. Otherwise one will desire to stay here without death, which IS not possible. But one who dropped desire after Grahasasramam, enters into varnasaramam gets elevated. Example: So many were taken with body to heavens in 16th century

B.Sathyanarayan.

--

 

Dear friend,

Namaskaram.Desire(kama), krodha(anger)and lobha are the gates of hell and they cause damage to sadhaka so they are to be given up.Of these three gates desire is the big gate and the other two are small gates.An unfulfilled desire causes anger and the anger not in our controle causes damage.If the desire is ful filled then comes lobha.This lobha causes envy by others on what you possess.So in either case desire causes destruction. So a sadhaka should always think about needs not desires.Why should you compare yourself with a tree? There are Billions of people on the planet living happily thinking about needs not desires. Happiness lies in contentment not possessionBadri Narayana Miriyala

 

---Shree Hari Ram RamThank you for bringing this to our attention. Kindly point out which particularsentence / message is wrong and is not what Krishna taught. When you disagree,it will be helpful to be more specific, so it clarify and make it easy for therespondents.Please also read extensive discussion in 2009 on this topic -Without Desires Nothing will be Attained/message/3183Sincerely, Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------Desire is the operative element of the human mind from moment to moment.Desire can not lead to fulfilment.Desire is sense of lack. Sense of lack can not be fulfilled, what ever you mayhold or amass.When one is aware, lack to fulfilment is system generated movement. Not thatthere is lack and you are to fulfill.There arises lack and there arises fulfilment. One sees the automation of thescheme of the Universe.'You and your death can not meet at any point', seeing this fact takes one torealise the self evident point of immortality.Y V Chawla---------------HERE ARE SOME OTHER RESPONSES FROM A SIMILAR TOPIC IN 2008 and BEYOND-Dear Sadhakas, Namste!All answers given on this are very revealing and fullof wisdom. We need to contemplate on all such answersuntil they resonate in us, become us!I would build upon them as follows:As Krishna says, four types of desires are to bepursued, Artha for livelihood to survive in thesansara, by means available withinDharma-righteousness, fulfilling Kama the naturaldesires again guided by Dharma, and finally all suchdesires directed to Moksha, liberation. So they areall Impersonal desires for seeking Truth, not personalego driven desires which originate from our lack orApurnata, the result of indentification with body,mind, intellect, religion, nationality etc etc.Only the personal desires need to be killed; killedin the sense they have to be understood as coming fromEgo, so cannot be in line with Dharma, or Moksha! Theyget dropped by such deep understanding, not by doingof a doer!Namaskar!........Pratap lovingly---------dear all,desire even if fulfilled only fuels more desire....friendly regardss.seshadri------------------Dear FriendsAn important message is contained in verse 21 of 16th Chapteras under:-Desires ( lust, passion), anger, and greed are the three main gatesto the hell because they destroy the soul and as such should begiven up.Desires, anger and greed creates hell in this life and wheneveranyone of the above is active in our life we feel suffering ofhell. Whenever anyone of the above takes possession of us, we arenot in a position to think clearly.Understanding of the presence of kama, krodh and lobh in our lifeand the supportive structure built for their nourishment will enableus to start process of giving up the same.Desires –basic question to be asked is `what do we want and why dowe want'. One has to observe and find out what desires creates helland what desires create heaven.Regards,A K Jain--------Dear Co-devotee, You yourself have provided the> answer by saying that desires are of 4 types, the> last being for Moksha. So the desire to have no> desires or kill all desires will fall under that> category and hence should not cause any concern.> G.Vaidyanathan-------Loving Divine,> Pranam.> All desires - good or bad, to do or not to do, have> to go eventually. The desire is a desire and it is> binding, however, one can not attain such state> immediately. Just like to remove a thorn one has to> use another thorn and when the thorn is removed, we> throw away both the thorns. Just like to climb up> we use staircases but once we reach top, we forget> all about staircases. Just like to cross a river,> we use a boat but once reached the other side, we do> not carry the boat with us. Similarly, in the> beginning stages of spiritual practices, we try to> kill our so called bad or harming desires with the> favorable desires that help us progress but once we> attain the state where it becomes part of our nature> we no longer need to make any efforts. To do or not> to do type desires drops off, actions are all> natural done by our higher self without any> expectations. There are no efforts involved from> us. Please contemplate on BG 18:66 - sarvadharmaan> parityajya...> Hope this helps...> humble regards,> always at Thy Lotus FeetManjula Patel------------------Shree Raman Maharshi, has given a solution to this dilema. He has asked us tofind the source from where does the thought arise, which in turn leads us to theself - the real I, and in so doing the thought vanishes and its seeds aredestroyed, once and for all.Regardsfrom,Hitesh Modi--\--Desires are a need of satisfaction. None other can judge whether is a desireright or wrong. But satisfaction is like a journey in infinite space, when youreach there, you find a next destination. It is therefore necessary to haveTatVA Gyan (knowledge of the essense) so that satisfaction is reached without aneed of desires. The work or Karma will be then directed towards TatVa Gyanarather than in a direction to gain satisfaction by fulfilling desires.Buddha, Einstein, Kabir, Gandhi, Tulsi Das, Mother Teresa are master pieces oflife used in understanding of the TatVa Gyana. Karma or work starts only afterthis state of mind; and any other work by us for seeking livelihood or securityor fame are just called Vyavasaya by Sri Krishna in the Bhagwat Gita.RegardsK G------------------In your recent Sadhak message on DESIRES it was shared thatDesires of four types - - Artha (Wealth); Dharma (Righteousness), "Kaama"(Passion) and Moksha (Salvation).... and about Gita says "Desires areinsatiable" and He asks Arjuna to kill this enemy i.e. Desire (Gita 3: 37-43).My question is - Isn't a thought not to have desires or to kill desires it selfalso a desire? So how do you explain this desire? Please clarify. Thank you.sukanya chhabra------------------|| Shree Hari ||Ram Ram28th January 2010, Thursday, Magh Shukla Trayodashi, Vikram Samvat 2066If there is no desire what-so-ever within, then on attainment of worldly thingsthere would not be any pleasure, and on not acquiring these or losing thesethere would not be any cause for pain and sorrow. It is only due to desires thatone experiences both pleasure (happiness) and pain (unhappiness). These arepairs of opposites, which lead to bondage in this world. In reality, bothpleasure and pain are one and the same. Pleasure is as such another name forpain, because the reason for pleasure and pain are - "ye hi sansparshjaa bhogaadukhayonay eva te." (Gita 5/22). "All pleasures born of contact with worldlyobjects, are the cause of unhappiness." If a person has no desire whatsoever,then he rises above both pain and pleasure and attains bliss (anand). Just asthe Sun, has neither day nor night in it, rather it is only constantillumination (light all the time), similarly in Bliss, there is neitherpleasure, nor pain, rather it is bliss at all times. On experiencing this bliss(anand) just once, there is no feeling of deficiency ever with regards to thebliss, because that bliss is axiomatic, eternal and immutable (without anymodifications).If it were possible to fulfill all desires, then we would strive to fulfill thedesire to live, and if it were possible to save oneself from death, then wewould endeavor to be saved from (to escape) death. But it is everyone'sexperience that all desires can never be fulfilled, and every being that isborn, cannot be saved from death, then what is the gain in having a desire tolive or fearing death? On having desire to live, birth and death cycle willcontinue, and the desire to live will also subsist ! Therefore to becomeimmortal while living, it is essential to renounce desires.I am not the body, because this body is changing every moment, but I (Swayam,Self) is constant there. If we were not constant there, then who would have theknowledge of this changing body? Knowledge of the changing is only possible byone who is not changing. This body is not mine, because I have no control overit, and I cannot keep it according to my wishes, nor can I make changes in it asI please, nor can I keep it with me forever. In this manner, when we do notaccept the body as "I" or "mine" then the desire to keep it alive will also notremain.When there is no desire to keep it alive, then before departing from this body,one will realize immortality which is self-evident. "The unreal has no existenceand the real never ceases to be" - "Naasato Vidhyate Bhaavo, Naabhaavo vidhyatesatah" (Gita 2/16).Truth is truth and untruth is untruth. Therefore there is no fear of the truthor the untruth. If we are afraid of death, then too the body shall die, andwithout fear also it shall die. Only the mortal dies. So what is the new loss?Therefore it is useless to be afraid of death. From "All is God" in English pg67 by Swami RamsukhdasjiRam RamFor ENGLISH WEBSITE please visit: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.netFor full online discourses in Hindi: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

[Guest guest]

But without desire or ambition you are a vegetable, not human.So this analysis (see below - Posting of Daily Sadhaka message) is wrong. It isnot what Krishna taught.Anil Bhanot--------

NEW POSTING

Dear Seekers of Truth, Namaste!In reference to Dinesh Vermaji's comments, "Swmaiji and some Sadhakas say, everyone should aim for achieving peace, ananda, freedom from anxiety. Is it not in itself a desire, an ambition?"let us make one more attempt at it, as such questions are normal in the beginning and have to be answered diligently! Narottamji and others have explained it very well in this regard.Peace, Ananda, Freedom from anxiety etc is not something to be achieved by desiring. Peace, Ananda is our original nature, it is what we ARE! How can we achieve that which we already are? If we do, we will only make it impossible to reach just as running after mirage pushes it further away. Just stop and find out yourself or ask the likes of Swamiji, is it real? The truth you discover/understand sets you free and at peace, stopping all runarounds in its track! Understanding and peace are simultaneous occurrence, rather Understanding is Peace, which is not an achievement but re-cognizing it within, which was lost in achieving from outside! Like Narottamji says (paraphrasing), desire is in relation to worldly things only, not for peace or ananda! Only an ego desires, seekers of truth try to understand the nature of desire! Things are limited themselves, so they cannot give peace, or joy that can last, rather, keep us in illusion and we never stop chasing them in the name of achievements! Don't we know all too well of this fact, looking at the track record of rat race?Desire is conflict between what IS and what SHOULD BE, Desire is "me", ever unhappy with what is! Happiness is NOW, not later! Happiness is to be one with what IS! What is, is the only Reality of Being, which when understood in spirit, brings PEACE, ANANDA ceaselessly, un-caused by anything! This is our Innate nature that was covered up by personal desires and ambitions! By such desires humans don't evolve to permanent happiness, and we cannot say new generations are happier, more peaceful than the previous generations either! Humans have devised new ways of killing each other, with new technologies, but "human psyche" still remains mostly barbaric! So, who or what has evolved in the ultimate sense? Having said this, there remains only "Impersonal Desire" which takes hold of "a body-mind" having come upon such Realization that there remains no "personal desires"! Desire is then energy of the Universal Scheme of things, so to speak, as Chwlaji mentioned(paraphrasing)! Note, all great scientific discoveries were made when scientists lost their "me" temporarily and worked for the Love of discoveries only, disregarding name and fame!True Evolution is Realization of Truth and to express IT in contemporary ways!Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

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Hari OmOne should never feel that Gita does not answer any query. Gita is a limitless ocean. If we close our eyes that does not mean the Sun is not existing. Hence to say that answer to some Q IS NOT in Gita but is in say some theory of Evolution means only that the speaker has not yet studied Gita at all. You can't say that something is not existing somewhere, unless you have searched fully and concluded. For example, you cannot say that in any particular room there is no pen, unless you have searched the room and found no pen there.Desire for Self Realisation/Paramatma/ Sat, Chit and Ananda is not desire (kaamana) ...it is "iccha" ( BG 12:9 )... It is Curiousity (Jigyaasa) ... It is Prem (Devotion) ... It is Yoga (Equanimity)...It is search ( parimargitvyam-BG 15:4)..It is "sadhana" (Striving) ..it is the very goal of that element -called SELF (Jeeva)- which actually and already is immortal but feeling/experiencing mortality; is complete but feeling/experiencing deficiency; is ever happy but feeling / experiencing 'dukhalayam' eg sorrow...nothing else except sorrow. Sufferring, sufferring and...sufferring.All because of what? Only Desires. Because of Desires only...nothing except desires. Stupid is Jeeva that it desires and as a result... he tries to get (dharyate- BG 7:4)) when he should be renouncing (tyaag- BG 12:12 ), argues when he should be conceding, talks when he should be listening, runs when he should be standing still, preaches when he should be learning; writes when he should be reading; justifies when he should be accepting; does 'karmas' when he should be doing 'akarmas'; tries to know others (Jagat) when he should be knowing him self, tries to do for himself when he should be doing for others (sarvabhoot hite rata), tries to get Jagat when he should be getting Jagdish....tries to desire when he should be aiming to become desireless....and thus Jeeva suffers..suffers...and suffers.. .takes birth ..dies...keeps taking births and keeps dying...but keeps desiring, desiring... and desiring ! Sheer stupidity !Whatever he is.. he thinks the others are ! Dharma appears adharma, karma appears akarma, darkness appears light, left appears right and right appears left. Jagat appears permanent. Body appears soul and soul appears body. Desires appear compulsory and religion appears optional. Impossible (fulfillment of desires) appears possible and what is actually possible ( to be desireless) appears impossible ( vegetable-ness) !! Real appears unreal and unreal appears real. Sat appears asat and asat appears sat. Jagat appears real and Jagdish imaginary !! Absolutely tamasic becomes the intellect (BG 18:33)....What is "vegetable" ? Sentient (Chetan) or Inert (Jad) ? Jeeva or Jagat ? What is actually 'VEGETABLE' ( Inert/Jad- the desiring Jeeva ) appears as 'SENTIENT' and what is 'sentient' ( desireless; egoless Jeeva...Self) appears as 'vegetable' !!This is what is called in Scriptures as.... Maya, Agyaan, Nescience, Avidya,... Darkness, Moha, Moodhata (dullness), Moorkhata (stupidity), Ignorance,... Inert (Jad), Asat, Non-existence, Unreal.... Mirage, Mrig-trishna, Jugglery, Dream, Mithya,.... Imaginary, Ghost like, Rope seen as snake... Viparyaya, Vipreet Buddhih (Reverse Intellect- BG 18:33) etc....! Pranaams to all Sadhaks.Sarve Bhavantu SukhinaNarottam -----------------------

Thank you for the responses on Desire and I would like to add that desire itself is

inherent in our make up, we cannot be human without it - good or bad desire is a matter

of choice between Dharma and Adharma principles. But desire is what makes us human.

Krishna's teaching is in my opinion to be not controlled by desire and be aware of it before

you give your 'will' to that desire.Krishna's teachings is to be unattached to the desire but

not to be desireless.True at the Moksha stage the Saint has no desire for worldly matters

because he or she has gone beyond it but that state comes not by being desireless, it comes

with the grace of God, as Chapter 18 somewhere Bhagwan Krishna says to Arjuna.

Up until that stage Krishna teaches Arjuna to indulge in his desire to vanquish Adharma as

a Kashatriya's duty requires. Krishna's life was full of desires but they were all examples

of 'desires without attachment'.

Hindu Swamis, with respect, have been teaching their adherents to 'leave the world' almost,

I believe as a result of the foriegn rule over the last millennia, perhaps because this was the

only way they could protect Hinduism, in the face of the proselytising rulers, but I think we

need a paradigm shift in this one particular analsysis of our scripture to actually say it is

our duty - as Krsihna reminded Arjuna - but more importantly our purpose to have

Kaam - desire

Artha - security

Dharma - righteous duty

Moksha - aim or desire to be with God.

So Desire is necessary until Moksha eliminates it by the grace of God.anil bhanot

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Shri Hari. Ram Ram.Dear Dinesh Verma,Yes, you are correct that we start with desire for peace, happiness etc in the beginning of spiritual process. Many people are arta (आरà¥à¤¤) bhakta e.g. driven by desire to improve their material situation. Some devotees are desirous for wealth. Please understand that right now you or we cannot get rid of desires. Good or bad comes from relative material perspective. From spiritual absolute perspective, everything is all good. Therefore, don't attribute badness to desires.Ramcharitmanas Uttarkand (Doha 40 +) -- "Listen, my brother, these numerous good qualities and bad qualities are product of maya. The greatest quality is that one should not see both of them. Seeing good or bad in this world is ignorance."Without attributing (good or bad) judgment, you need to understand that in ultimate state, yogi or devotee has no desires. Krishna describes him as jnani. This desire free state happens due to the fact that our self is beyond inert matter. When we realize this fact, then we are happy from within and we don't need anything from outside inert matter. In that state, there is no desire.I hope you understand this concept at least theoretically through intellectual reasoning i.e observing the difference between seer and seen and therefore, understanding that self (observer) is beyond what it observes.I hope this helps.Regards,Gaurav Mittal

As Swami Dayananda says-----Even God has a desire. In the beginning, as this world enfolded from its naad bindu, there was obviously a desire to create this wonderful creation---Maayaa. Even us, humans at the very basic level, have a desire to put one foot in front of the other, to reach wherever it is that we are going. And so do plants in trying to reach their genetic heights or bearing of fruits or flowers. All of life, animate and inanimate has desires of its own. Even stones, have a desire not to move ! Imagine if the mountains started "moving". Desires do not necessarily mean motion. Yoga and meditation involve sitting quietly too, without any motion.

 

 

Desire itself, whether of reaching certain place or certain end point ( as in Moksha or finishing a project ), is inherent in "life". It is not desire itself that is wrong, but the means of achieving it. And frankly, some desires may be wrong, as in world domination, etc.....!

Durgesh Mankikar,MD

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Vegetables, humans, desire, ambition ...

 

 

 

Being desireful and ambitious is the basic quality of the human beings - it is claimed. So are being miserable and frustrated … I would say. Of course, KrishNa talks of this eternal bond between desire and misery, between ambition and frustration, between all the dualities possible in one's perception. Being "human" IS being dual, being split between the opposite notions, being desirefully miserable. Therefore, Swamiji's quote on Bhagavadgita is very apt and cannot be more correct: "All pleasures born of contact with worldly objects, are the cause of unhappiness."

 

 

 

|| Ye hi sansparshjaa bhogaa dukhayonay eva te ||

 

 

 

As I see it, neither Bahagavadgita nor Swamiji insist one not to be desireful or ambitious … but, they are teaching the ones who are complaining about the miseries in life regarding the root cause for all the miseries - the desire embedded in one's very existence.

 

 

 

"Without desire or ambition you are a vegetable, not human." … "analysis (Swamiji's) is wrong - It is not what Krishna taught." I see fundamental anomolies and bias here.

 

 

 

Can we ever 'know' what KrishNa taught to make a categorical conclusion of any kind regarding the same?! Have we attempted to appreciate what a seer is telling in full context before negating the same categorically??!! Doubts are obvious … ignorance is obvious ... but, they can neither warrant nor justify any conclusion on our behalf.

 

 

 

How "being human" is aired superior to "being vegetable"? May be, the trees around would tell the same, "being human" is not "being vegetation"! Just the way we unilaterally conclude regarding trees as insensitive because we fail to understand their means of existence, they may verily claim similarly not knowing how we could live!! Ignorance cannot be knowledge!!! Our ignorance on the vegetables' knowhow cannot make our unvalidated and biased comments regarding the same knowledge either. Perceivably, the vegetables are neither desireful and ambitious nor miserable and frustrated THE WAY WE KNOW. It just affirms a simple perception - we are not vegetables. OK ... So what?! Do we cease to be miserable then? Do we not want to be NOT MISERABLE anymore??

 

 

 

If you do not want to be miserable, then LISTEN to KrishNa ... listen to Swamiji ... intently ... and with care. Study the siamese symbiosis between the desire and the misery that is declared by KrishNa here. If you appreciate the eternal bond between the ambition and frustration carefully, the analysis made by Swamiji on KrishNa's statement would probably make sense to you. If you do not mind being miserable and frustrated as well, why did you land in the Bhagavadgita? It is not required anymore to you!

 

 

 

Respects.

 

 

 

 

naga Narayana.

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As per my trivial understanding, I think we must also differentiate between desire and ambition. While the focus of "Desire" is always limited to self or your kith and kin, ambition has alrger goal of "Lok Kalyan"/general good. Initially we, need to practice and develop attitude for "Jagat Kalyan" by expanding and our thought boundaris, which could happen only when we extend definition of kith & kinship and devlop same affection to all being. All things are intertwined.

2. I agree that "desire to attain Moksha" is also a desire but can not be classified as a desire as it is not ridden with either Kama or Krodha or Moha or Lobha.

 

Pranam to all Sadhakas.

 

Deepak Misra

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Dear friend,

It seems you are meddling the aim of human birth with desire.The achievement of salvation is not in your hands.It may take hundreds of births based on the sanskaras of sadhaka,where as desires are in your controle.You can controle your mind telling that this is not the ultimate thing to be achieved.An addict to liquor comes to know( when initiated to spirituality by a guru) that divine is more intoxcicant than wine

Badri Narayana Miriyala

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Hari OmMoreover, there is no denying the fact that there is difference between what is desire (kama) as per Gita and what are necessities/goals of human birth. A human gets born with desire to become SATCHIDANAND- to be all knowing, all doing, all getting- to be fearless and thus immortal, to be desireless thus ever happy , to be Peaceful. The Jeeva is ever running to fulfill those desires only. But these desires are not Kamas ( as defined in Gitaji and by Swamiji and by all Scriptures). These are 'Abhilashas' , the subhecchas (auspicious desires ) , the needs, goals and the very purpose of human life.Desire (Kama) is always with reference to Jagat/inert/ Prakruti . And no one becomes vegetable if one throws away such stupidity ( desires necessarily are stupidities) and becomes immortal, fearless, all knowing, and "absolutely" happy. Ever happy. Ananda. Relativityless ONLY ANANDA.Pranaams to all Sadhaks.Sarve Bhavantu SukhinaNarottam ---

Dear Sadaks,

They were Swamijis who appeared like they were vegatables, but they were highly protected by Bhagavan and they were away from the clutches of earthly effects. 1) Sadashiva Brasmendral who was buried under sand for days, but was very healthy and excellent. Adi Sankara was sitting in one position for days. Viswanatha Bhram who lived in 18th century end to 19th century was without food or water for months. These mahathumas were desire-less looking like mad man. There are many more. B.Sathyanarayan

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Shree Hari Ram Ram

Shri Anil Bhanotji !

How do you know that vegetable is desireless ?

Vineet Sarvottam

 

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Desire & Ambition

 

It is disingenous to suggest that having no desire or ambition is a good thing when Swami ji ( and his supporters) are also saying that everyone should aim for achieving peace, ananda, freedom from anxiety. Is it not in itself a desire, an ambition? Why then is desire wrong? The answer is not in Geeta but in theory of Evolution. Everyone has an in built desire to be better that their parents or older siblings. That desire brings a positive chane and everyone evolves. This is the answer to the question.

Dinesh Varma

Kant

UK

----

Dear Seekers of Truth, Namaste!First of all, the message of Swamiji is so profound that unless one reads between the lines with openness and try to understand, one cannot appreciate it! It is very much in line with Lord Krishna's teaching in his own experience!Secondly, my deep appreciation of the posting of Chawlaji. It is very profound, of which the statement "'You and your death can not meet at any point', seeing this fact takes one to realize the self evident point of immortality." is worth noting!Desire is inherent in limitations of any kind such as objects. One such object is body-mind that one considers oneself to be!With that limitation, to fulfill oneself, one chases the objects of the world also limited when considered independently existing apart from SELF one IS! In absence of such self imposed, unquestioned, limitations upon oneself, one loses all identities. This is explained by Swamiji in the same message by giving various example of false identifications!In such a scenario, there remains only desire(s) without there being a "one who desires!" This is the Scheme of the Universe desiring through its many instruments, so a specific instrument is not vegetable, but simply a normal human being carrying out impersonal will of his Master! This is, as though, it is!Namaskar................Pratap Bhatt

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Hari OmIt is a fallacy and nothing except a fallacy to suggest that without desire one is vegetable and not even human. As if by desire we get human birth; we get caste, creed, colour as we desire; we get parents as we desire; we get worldly things/situations/circumstances as we desire; we die as we desire..... And if desire is not there you become vegetable.. You can't do any karma !! What kind of desire is there when blood circulates in the body, or breathing takes place? What kind of desire is there preceding a sickness? No body desires to die...but do you not die? Is death cessation of desire? If yes, why do you let it? If no, how you become vegetable then ? Had without desires human body would have turned from live to vegetable..how in Gita Lord Krishna would have preached us to become desireless ? Was He even not that educated ? Karma...has no essential corelation with desire. You can do karma without having any desires also ! You do karma of visiting an ailing relative - did you desire that he falls sick ? Hence to look at a suggestion of Saints and Sages, Gita etc with such angle and approach is simply deciding not to do a recommended deed for one's own welfare. So far so good. But to tell others too and thereby discourage them... is bit too much. Tell us what Krishna taught ! No Divine Sadhaks ! Nothings happens to you except cessation of sorrows when you relinquish desires. No vegetableness takes place. You become better ...you become 'swastha' !!Pranaams to all Sadhaks.Sarve Bhavantu SukhinaNarottam ------------------------

Shree Hari. Ram Ram.

 

Krishna states in Gita that the yogi attains the Supreme state and there is nothing to gain. Actually, there is no need to do any action or not do any action. Still, yogi acts for benefit of others.

After reaching this Supreme state, there is no more ambition or desire. Currently, we are looking for things outside. The outside world keeps on changing and therefore, our desires change. But Krishna asks us to look inwards. When we attain inner happiness and bliss, then there is nothing to gain from outside world.

 

In our current state, we need carrot of achieve something to drive us to do work. Sometimes, this carrot is money, wealth or some object. Sometimes, it is more spiritual like freedom from anxiety, peace etc.

Since we are driven so much by desires, it is difficult to comprehend state without desire or ambition.

 

Gita tells us that it is possible to attain state where you will be happy and satisfied from within and you don't need anything more and therefore, there is no desire/ ambition.

Unfortunately only very few can attain it. I have been trying to practice it for years and still, I am driven by desires etc.

 

Good news is that I have found Swamiji books explaining these topics in a simple and rational way like nitya anitya vivek (discrimination between what is permanent and what is perishable).

Please select some book and read it carefully. I think you will get answers. Please use this opportunity to go more deeper within by reading Swamiji's books.

Hopefully, one day we all be able to reach such state.

 

Regards,

Gaurav Mittal

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Desires are common to all beings. The desires work independently through theGunas in the body cells, DNA, RNA, etc. The Animals have desires. Vegetablesalso have desires to grow operating through the working of their cells when liveand deire to get rotten sometime or when cut out from plants for human andanimal food intake. Human beings are therefore some from of Animals andVegetables.. What distinguishes a human from animal or vegetble is that thehuman has also cells inside that can work against desire. The human being oftendoes not act against one kind of desire like to enjoy sex or food or comfort adallow the desire to know the Craor , the Creation and the creative proces. Thosewh have such strong desires to know may become scientists and when they give upall sensual desires but the only desire to know the Creator, they becomesuperhuman beings. nd, when such superhuman beings realize the god, they do othave any more desire. They do everything without beng connected to desire. They become one with the Creator and God. Vegetables do notbecome one with the God, nor do animals.Try being vegetable a human would not become an attractive vegetable. By givingup desires and ambitions, a human being will become more attractive to otherhuman beings and will enjoy greater peace and many other things (that otherhuman beings desire and may or may not get fulfilled) without desiring them. Basudeb Sen--

 

 

Shree Hari. Ram Ram.

 

I would like to add another point.

 

In spiritual journey, we make gradual advancements. Sometimes, this may take many births.

Right now, I see myself as body and whatever I do, I cannot deny the fact that I give importance to outside world. So, it is very difficult to attain the state without desires.

I need to be honest with myself and act at my level. If I try to imitate the advanced state, then I will suffer and act foolishly and in the end, I won't attain any spiritual advancement.

 

It is important to go gradually. One needs to look inwards and look at the world. Look at the reality. See what is permanent in this world. Look at what is changing. Among this change, self stays.

Go more deeper and see what self wants. Does it want to die or be eternal? Does it want fleeting happiness or permanent happiness? And so on. In this way, understand your own self and understand the world.

Choose a path which suits you (karma, jnana or bhakti yog). Understand Parmatma and see that you are part of Him. Use Swamiji's books and knowledge as a guide to help you.

In this way, you will understand more.

 

I agree with you that without above understanding, a person without desire / ambition is vegetable. May be you are seeing desires as bad and you want to disagree with that fact!

Swamiji is not saying that desire's are bad.

 

Swamiji is saying that in the Supreme state, you are established in your eternal self and experience sat (eternity), chid (knowledge) and anand (bliss). In that state, there is no desire as one does not attain anything from perishable inert matter due to being established in eternal self. Understand that in that state there is no desire.

 

Try to gradually seek above state without attributing anything as good or bad.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Regards,

Gaurav Mittal

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It is ok to have desires......but whose desires, which desires, what quality of desires?

Understanding the following could give some clarity:

 

1. It is a grand play (Leela).......and everything is just happening......it is good to just remain at your happy natural state and witness everything happening.......

 

2. We all desire to be happy....all the time....feel contended...satisfied...fulfilled.....then we must choose the desires accordingly..

 

3. A desire is like a prayer and all prayers get attended to....get fulfilled if we have the patience and faith... but we need to understand which desires bring us happiness, which don't......what brings us lasting happiness....highest form of happiness...

 

4. A desire could be just personal, or it can be impersonal, or it could be the highest to be divine...moksha....

to attain Moksha....actually....even desire to attain moksha has to go.....it is state of Maun...complete silence..

Higher the desire, better are the results.... Higher desires means the lower desires will be automatically fulfilled...or will become meaningless....

 

5. Who am I? .....the begger or the desire fulfiller....? Whose play is it? Whose desire?

 

It is a wonderful world, a wonderful creation...........desires or no desires....happiness is the key.......

Start with happiness......keep it all the time......live in bless.......create.....express...expand.....

Sushil Jain

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Dear Sadaks,

What Sri Krishna taught is this. DO NOT DESIRE for neighbor's wife, others money, accumulate wealth, to enjoy more with sensory organs, destroy your neighbor peace, to make others listen to what you want, etc etc. DESIRE at the present- seek for today food, care to parents/wife/children & neighbor, desire to have a transport that fits your budget, (Not looks and for other to envy or pride), desire to be hale and healthy, then eat what Geetha says (In Geetha it is said any food kept more than 4 hours frigged or not is bad), desire to earn by hard work, but not by easy money by bribe, cheating etc. Sri Anil Bhanot desire that sounds positive in this posting is NOT wrong, but desire negative posted is coming under GREED, which resembles DESIRE. At one stage of certain age, after having gone through all the rightful pleasure of life span up to 60 years, having grandchildren, then it is necessary to stop desires and seek solitude, which many Grahastas/Kings done in the past. Otherwise one will desire to stay here without death, which IS not possible. But one who dropped desire after Grahasasramam, enters into varnasaramam gets elevated. Example: So many were taken with body to heavens in 16th century

B.Sathyanarayan.

--

 

Dear friend,

Namaskaram.Desire(kama), krodha(anger)and lobha are the gates of hell and they cause damage to sadhaka so they are to be given up.Of these three gates desire is the big gate and the other two are small gates.An unfulfilled desire causes anger and the anger not in our controle causes damage.If the desire is ful filled then comes lobha.This lobha causes envy by others on what you possess.So in either case desire causes destruction. So a sadhaka should always think about needs not desires.Why should you compare yourself with a tree? There are Billions of people on the planet living happily thinking about needs not desires. Happiness lies in contentment not possessionBadri Narayana Miriyala

 

---Shree Hari Ram RamThank you for bringing this to our attention. Kindly point out which particularsentence / message is wrong and is not what Krishna taught. When you disagree,it will be helpful to be more specific, so it clarify and make it easy for therespondents.Please also read extensive discussion in 2009 on this topic -Without Desires Nothing will be Attained/message/3183Sincerely, Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram--------Desire is the operative element of the human mind from moment to moment.Desire can not lead to fulfilment.Desire is sense of lack. Sense of lack can not be fulfilled, what ever you mayhold or amass.When one is aware, lack to fulfilment is system generated movement. Not thatthere is lack and you are to fulfill.There arises lack and there arises fulfilment. One sees the automation of thescheme of the Universe.'You and your death can not meet at any point', seeing this fact takes one torealise the self evident point of immortality.Y V Chawla---------------HERE ARE SOME OTHER RESPONSES FROM A SIMILAR TOPIC IN 2008 and BEYOND-Dear Sadhakas, Namste!All answers given on this are very revealing and fullof wisdom. We need to contemplate on all such answersuntil they resonate in us, become us!I would build upon them as follows:As Krishna says, four types of desires are to bepursued, Artha for livelihood to survive in thesansara, by means available withinDharma-righteousness, fulfilling Kama the naturaldesires again guided by Dharma, and finally all suchdesires directed to Moksha, liberation. So they areall Impersonal desires for seeking Truth, not personalego driven desires which originate from our lack orApurnata, the result of indentification with body,mind, intellect, religion, nationality etc etc.Only the personal desires need to be killed; killedin the sense they have to be understood as coming fromEgo, so cannot be in line with Dharma, or Moksha! Theyget dropped by such deep understanding, not by doingof a doer!Namaskar!........Pratap lovingly---------dear all,desire even if fulfilled only fuels more desire....friendly regardss.seshadri------------------Dear FriendsAn important message is contained in verse 21 of 16th Chapteras under:-Desires ( lust, passion), anger, and greed are the three main gatesto the hell because they destroy the soul and as such should begiven up.Desires, anger and greed creates hell in this life and wheneveranyone of the above is active in our life we feel suffering ofhell. Whenever anyone of the above takes possession of us, we arenot in a position to think clearly.Understanding of the presence of kama, krodh and lobh in our lifeand the supportive structure built for their nourishment will enableus to start process of giving up the same.Desires –basic question to be asked is `what do we want and why dowe want'. One has to observe and find out what desires creates helland what desires create heaven.Regards,A K Jain--------Dear Co-devotee, You yourself have provided the> answer by saying that desires are of 4 types, the> last being for Moksha. So the desire to have no> desires or kill all desires will fall under that> category and hence should not cause any concern.> G.Vaidyanathan-------Loving Divine,> Pranam.> All desires - good or bad, to do or not to do, have> to go eventually. The desire is a desire and it is> binding, however, one can not attain such state> immediately. Just like to remove a thorn one has to> use another thorn and when the thorn is removed, we> throw away both the thorns. Just like to climb up> we use staircases but once we reach top, we forget> all about staircases. Just like to cross a river,> we use a boat but once reached the other side, we do> not carry the boat with us. Similarly, in the> beginning stages of spiritual practices, we try to> kill our so called bad or harming desires with the> favorable desires that help us progress but once we> attain the state where it becomes part of our nature> we no longer need to make any efforts. To do or not> to do type desires drops off, actions are all> natural done by our higher self without any> expectations. There are no efforts involved from> us. Please contemplate on BG 18:66 - sarvadharmaan> parityajya...> Hope this helps...> humble regards,> always at Thy Lotus FeetManjula Patel------------------Shree Raman Maharshi, has given a solution to this dilema. He has asked us tofind the source from where does the thought arise, which in turn leads us to theself - the real I, and in so doing the thought vanishes and its seeds aredestroyed, once and for all.Regardsfrom,Hitesh Modi--\--Desires are a need of satisfaction. None other can judge whether is a desireright or wrong. But satisfaction is like a journey in infinite space, when youreach there, you find a next destination. It is therefore necessary to haveTatVA Gyan (knowledge of the essense) so that satisfaction is reached without aneed of desires. The work or Karma will be then directed towards TatVa Gyanarather than in a direction to gain satisfaction by fulfilling desires.Buddha, Einstein, Kabir, Gandhi, Tulsi Das, Mother Teresa are master pieces oflife used in understanding of the TatVa Gyana. Karma or work starts only afterthis state of mind; and any other work by us for seeking livelihood or securityor fame are just called Vyavasaya by Sri Krishna in the Bhagwat Gita.RegardsK G------------------In your recent Sadhak message on DESIRES it was shared thatDesires of four types - - Artha (Wealth); Dharma (Righteousness), "Kaama"(Passion) and Moksha (Salvation).... and about Gita says "Desires areinsatiable" and He asks Arjuna to kill this enemy i.e. Desire (Gita 3: 37-43).My question is - Isn't a thought not to have desires or to kill desires it selfalso a desire? So how do you explain this desire? Please clarify. Thank you.sukanya chhabra------------------|| Shree Hari ||Ram Ram28th January 2010, Thursday, Magh Shukla Trayodashi, Vikram Samvat 2066If there is no desire what-so-ever within, then on attainment of worldly thingsthere would not be any pleasure, and on not acquiring these or losing thesethere would not be any cause for pain and sorrow. It is only due to desires thatone experiences both pleasure (happiness) and pain (unhappiness). These arepairs of opposites, which lead to bondage in this world. In reality, bothpleasure and pain are one and the same. Pleasure is as such another name forpain, because the reason for pleasure and pain are - "ye hi sansparshjaa bhogaadukhayonay eva te." (Gita 5/22). "All pleasures born of contact with worldlyobjects, are the cause of unhappiness." If a person has no desire whatsoever,then he rises above both pain and pleasure and attains bliss (anand). Just asthe Sun, has neither day nor night in it, rather it is only constantillumination (light all the time), similarly in Bliss, there is neitherpleasure, nor pain, rather it is bliss at all times. On experiencing this bliss(anand) just once, there is no feeling of deficiency ever with regards to thebliss, because that bliss is axiomatic, eternal and immutable (without anymodifications).If it were possible to fulfill all desires, then we would strive to fulfill thedesire to live, and if it were possible to save oneself from death, then wewould endeavor to be saved from (to escape) death. But it is everyone'sexperience that all desires can never be fulfilled, and every being that isborn, cannot be saved from death, then what is the gain in having a desire tolive or fearing death? On having desire to live, birth and death cycle willcontinue, and the desire to live will also subsist ! Therefore to becomeimmortal while living, it is essential to renounce desires.I am not the body, because this body is changing every moment, but I (Swayam,Self) is constant there. If we were not constant there, then who would have theknowledge of this changing body? Knowledge of the changing is only possible byone who is not changing. This body is not mine, because I have no control overit, and I cannot keep it according to my wishes, nor can I make changes in it asI please, nor can I keep it with me forever. In this manner, when we do notaccept the body as "I" or "mine" then the desire to keep it alive will also notremain.When there is no desire to keep it alive, then before departing from this body,one will realize immortality which is self-evident. "The unreal has no existenceand the real never ceases to be" - "Naasato Vidhyate Bhaavo, Naabhaavo vidhyatesatah" (Gita 2/16).Truth is truth and untruth is untruth. Therefore there is no fear of the truthor the untruth. If we are afraid of death, then too the body shall die, andwithout fear also it shall die. Only the mortal dies. So what is the new loss?Therefore it is useless to be afraid of death. From "All is God" in English pg67 by Swami RamsukhdasjiRam RamFor ENGLISH WEBSITE please visit: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.netFor full online discourses in Hindi: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org