Then who is the doer? Please help clarify -

February 25, 2010

Then who is the doer? Could anybody please help clarify this.

The mind is not the doer, the intellect is not the doer, the Self is not the

doer. Then who is the doer. Or will it be a mystery.

Raam

Kuldeep Chaturvedi

======================================================

PLEASE READ PREVIOUS SADHAK POSTINGS ON THIS TOPIC. Sadhaks please be brief,

respectful and relavant. Thank you,

Gita Talk Moderators,

Ram Ram

There is No Doership in the Self

sadhaka/message/1394

Neither God is the Doer, Nor Self (Jeev) is the Doer.

sadhaka/message/1582

Doership and Enjoyership are Merely Assumed

sadhaka/message/1629

There is No Doership, Nor Enjoyership in the Self

sadhaka/message/1895

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PRIOR GITA TALK MESSAGE.... SUMMARY

Shree Hari

Ram Ram!

Very good response to the questions! I would like to add to the response for

question #3 (Verse 13-34) in green -

13th Chapter of Gita predominantly deals with Jnana Yoga, in Jnana Yoga, the

realization is through use of Viveka and Vichaar, pure intellect transcends to

Viveka according to Swamiji Maharaj, which in turn will lead to acceptance by

the Self!

In contrast, for the Bhakti Yoga the realization comes through the acceptance by

the Self through complete surrender to God as already explained by Madhviji in

the response in red.

With warm regards,

A devotee!

Madan Kaura

----

Please see comments in red.

Questions:

1) Is this just a matter of knowing (jnana)? Or is it something

that one has to realize (through anubhava)?

The jnana that we talk about is knowledge through our intellect. We have merely

learnt these facts without accepting them. The learning is by the intellect (a

part of prakriti). Realisation comes from acceptance - not be learning.

Acceptance is not done by mind or intellect - it is done by the Self. What is

stated in the Gita is true. They can be experienced by acceptance only. In fact,

we all have experienced this fact. We just do not give it importance. Who

amongst us holds ourself responsible for the circulation of blood, for the

digestion of food? These are actions that happen naturally - we do not hold

ourself to be the doer of these actions. If you are engrossed in a particular

activity you will not even realise it if an elephant passes in front of you. You

become the experiencer only when you join yourself with the activity. When you

become the doer or have a desire for the result.

So the realisation comes by acceptance. The experience is actually your

acceptance.

2) Since the Self is neither a doer, it is flawless, and untainted

by anything, why has Lord Krishna given so much importance and

dedicated chapters of the Gita to that which is born of prakriti

(nature), such as Gunas - Rajas, Tamas, Sattva, eight limbs of

yoga, purification of thoughts, actions etc.

As stated by Madanji, the Gita is for everyone and different people are at

different stages. The percentage of realisation and acceptance differs. The

reality has been stated and all means to realise the reality has also been

stated. The Gita does not give you just one path - it gives you all the paths.

You can choose whichever one suits you best. The fact that this question has

been asked, shows its importance. Lord Krishna has given it so much importance

because we are so much attached to prakriti and its Gunas, even though we are

flawless and untainted.

3) Further in Gita 13:35, Lord Krishna also says that, " the one who

perceives with the eye of wisdom, this distinction, and sees the

Self as separate from Prakriti has attained the Supreme

Consciousness. " How is one to get beyond just knowing and actually

perceive this distinction between Self (Knower of Field) and

Prakriti - the Field (Body, Mind, Intellect, Ego and all that is

born of nature). How is one to truly realize the depth of this

message? Does Gita elaborate on the means to attain this

realization?

The true depth of this message is realised only by His Grace. His Grace is

always on us. We just have to accept His Grace. We just have to realise His

Grace.

Realisation comes from acceptance. As Swamiji used to say -

'Once, with a simple heart and with determination, firmly ACCEPT -

i. I am only God's.

ii. Only God is mine.

iii. Only God IS.

iv. Everything is only God.

This is a sure shot way of realisation. There is no doubt, can be no doubt in

it. Those with a reasoning and thinking mind can think and reason all that they

want to but in the end they will have to come to accepting this fact - because

it is THE TRUTH.

Ram Ram

Ramkrishna Prapann

--------------------------

|| Shree Hari ||

Ram Ram

25th February 2010, Thursday, Falgun Shukla Ekadashi

Vikram Samvat 2066, Sri Krishna Samvaat 5235

Now let us think over – Where does a desire abide? Several say that the desire

is in the mind. But actually a desire does not abide in the mind, rather it

comes into (visits) the mind - " Prajahaati yadaa kaamaansarvaanpaarth

manogataan " (Gita 2/55). The mind is an inner instrument. In an instrument

there are no desires. Does a pen have a desire to write? Does a motor car

have a desire to move? No! If we hold that the desire resides in the mind,

then if the desire is not satiated, the mind should suffer pain. But it is the

doer (Self) that undergoes suffering resulting from un-fulfillment of desire.

Therefore in fact the desire does not abide in the instrument (mind, intellect),

but abides in the doer (agent). An instrument (karan) depends on the doer

(kartaa). Being entangled in the duality in the form of happiness and

unhappiness, resulting from fulfillment and un-fulfillment of desires, man's

discriminating faculty does not function properly and he holds the desire to be

in the mind.

Now let us reflect on - Who is the doer? If mind was the doer (agent), then it

would not act being subservient to the intellect. But it is everyone's

experience that the mind renounces the desire to do a thing, that the intellect

determines (decides) not to do, and it begins to desire to do the act that the

intellect determines (decides) to do. But even the intellect is not an

independent agent; because the intellect is also an instrument. When a man

derives pleasure from satisfying a desire, then the intellect decides to do that

action. But the man who knows that the enjoyment of pleasures results in pain,

renounces the pleasure derived from fulfillment of desire; then his intellect,

instead of being inclined towards pleasures, decides to renounce the desire for

pleasure. The instrument is dependent on the agent and is very beneficial in

accomplishing an act - " Sadhaktam karnam " (Paani. Astaa 1/4/42). But doer is

independent - " Swatantra kartaa " (Paani. Astaa 1/4/54). The Self is also not

the doer (agent), because if there was doer-ship in the Self, then that

doer-ship would never go away. Therefore in the Gita, Bhagwaan has negated the

sense of doer-ship in the Self - " sharirasthopi kaunteya, na karoti na

lipyate. " (Gita 13/31). The self, though dwelling in the body, neither acts

nor is tainted. In fact, he who experiences (becomes happy and sad), he is the

doer (agent).

From " Manav Maatre Kalyan ke liye " pg 125 and " For Salvation of Mankind " pg 130

by Swami Ramsukhdasji

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February 26, 2010

Then who is the doer? Could anybody please help clarify this.The mind is not the doer, the intellect is not the doer, the Self is not thedoer. Then who is the doer. Or will it be a mystery.RaamKuldeep Chaturvedi======================================================

NEW POSTING

Dear Sadhakas,Hare Krishna. This is in response to a question from a sadhaka. All actions take place because of modes of nature. Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita," Prakrteh kriyamanani,Gunaih karmani sarvasah,Ahankara vimudhatma,Kartaham iti manyate. "( Gitaji 3, 27)Which means,'When all the actions take place because of modes of nature, a foolish person because of false ego thinks he( or she) is actually doing those actions. 'The modes of nature are Sattva (goodness), rajo(passion), tamo( ignorance).The supersoul( paramatma) gives certain freedom to soul ( jivatma) to decide for himself or herself. The supersoul is the witness for every action, thought, and word. A person situated in Krishna consciousness, clearly sees that gross ( subtle body) is created from material nature, under the direction of Supreme Personality of Godhead and hence bodily activities as well as mental activities should be engaged in His service. Actions continue to take place even when we think we are not doing any. The best course is to do actions for the welfare of others and in the name of the Lord. Thank YouHare Krishna. Prasad.A.Iragavarapu, M.D

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Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Real doer is the "the thought" saying "I am the doer"! If you can look at your experience, you will see that while doing any action, the thought of being a doer is not present, but soon after action is done, the thought appears: "I did it" or "I didn't" or such similar thoughts arise. Doer is an "after-thought"! It is also possible that during the action, this thought may arise if interruptions happen. It is hard to notice this fact of our experience as it happens so fast!Now this "doer" thought originates from "me", a person - ego - ahambhav! Such a "me" develops over time from childhood onward remaining at the center considering itself as the doer-enjoy-er. If we go deeper, we can see that it is due to body identification, Self apparently imposes limitations on itself and mind becomes its tool to hold history of such a person in terms of likes-dislikes, latent tendencies, attachments all as thoughts(beliefs, opinions, biases etc etc!The history is really conditioning-Karma in terms of memory only, but needs a center to act which is "me". Thus a body-mind provides an anchor to root such "ego-me". Put differently, it is a kind of programming of body-mind organism by the culture prevalent in desh-kaal or time and place such a person is born and raised! This Programming is the "doer-enjoy-er" working its way through individual body. It may appear that person is doing, but person is only a tool, an excuse through which karmas-conditioning works themselves out and keep recycling karmas through new bodies! Ignorance is at the root of all this, until God bestows Grace!Swamiji, below, puts it as "In fact, he who experiences (becomes happy and sad), he is the doer (agent). " Thus it is clear happy-sad is Ego who usurps the doership!This is anatomy of ego-me as I understand it!Namaskar.........Pratap Bhatt

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Shree Paramatmane Namah

when there is no doer whatsoever, cannot be at all, then why pursue it's search? That which regulates and governs everything in accordance with natural laws and principles, through That alone all things are taking place and getting done. But anyone alive cannot show you that this one is the doer. If someone reveals to you the doer, then please tell me as well, as per my knowledge, Swamiji also could not find the doer. So be it, Vineet Sarvottam

-

Dear Sadaks,Jeevathuma is separate from Paramathuma. Jeevathuma acquires certain desires, and Vasanas. The Jeeva has to obtain a body for that to shed away it` s desires/vasanas. It can be human body, plant, animal, Indras, Gandervas Etc all within the circle of 13 Lokas. Once a body got hold of by Jeeva it starts functioning to complete desires. In this process the mind (Buddhi) leads one to go into the desire. Like a person going for gambling, womanizing, robbing Etc and but due to previous Good Karmas there is also desire thereby developed towards Sat Sangh, Bajans, Sevas, Meditation Etc. Examples; There are persons walking across a street where there is divine song is broadcast by amplifier speaker. All persons have common hearing faculty, but only one or two stand there to listen. Other just walk away. We see young persons attending divine lectures. But it is 2%. Balance 98 % are busy with entertainment. This is because of their Karma Pala. Here the doer is the body and Jeeva is witness. The intellect (Vivechan) keeps on warning about good and bad. The intellect is guided from Paramathuma energy within ones own body. Bagavan Shiva is destroyer based on ones own Karma Pala. So also is Sustain-er is Bagavan Vishnu. Bagavan Bhrama is creator. All three works strictly on ones own Karmas. Bhramaji four heads denotes Chatur Yug (4 yugas), creator with knowledge known as Saraswath. Sri Vishnu is sustainability in Violet colour, with aid of money (Wealth- those days there was NO currency) Maha Lakshmi and Garuda (Speed) required for sustainability. Sri Shiva Bagavan destroys the body in time span allotted, and that time goes away very fast (But the time moves like Bedfellow for ignorant humans that not realizable) and ends up with Ashes (Asthi said in Geetha). But during life span mother Parvathi gives Sakthi to perform Karmas. So the doer (The body- which is said as, Maanusha Deham Dulabam) can perform (doer) any act of goodness, purity, divinity, scarifies Etc and escape rebirth. Alternatively do all the bad and be born again and again. Ref: Baja Govindam, Vivekachudamani, Geetha, Garuda Puran and Upanashids. Due to the doer (BODY) the Jeeva gets trapped into different bodies to complete its desires or escapes to Mukthi.B.Sathyanarayan -------------

Then who is the doer? Could anybody please help clarify this.

One who percieves the doership is the doer in the very perception. Till you percieve doership, you are the doer. Doership implies that (1) there is multiplicity in action; (2) action is under the governance of objects; (3) the domain of action is within an individual's perview. If your perception agrees with these postulates, you are a doer. Note that doership being variant and plural conforming to the nature of the corresponding perception, insists variance and plurality in the doer as well. In case, you develop a doubt regarding these postulates, you may want to consider Lord KrishNas instruction in Bhagavadgita regarding the same ...

For example, Lord KrishNa states at one point that,

Na kartritvam na karmaani lokasya srijati prabhuh |

Na karamphalasamyogam svabhaavastu pravartate ||

There is no doership of any kind as such. The action is absolutely independent and remains as is by itself i.e. action is self-effulgant and self-sufficient. Therefore, there is niether plurality in the action nor there is any doership to overlord the action. The world and its objects merge in the action as per their inherent nature as they are and on their own.

If you do not percieve any particular doership by realizing how the action transcends the authority of anything and everything, there is no doership to dictate terms to the action; and hence there is no doer. Therefore, either you are a doer or there is none. That is your call. Therefore, to get a resolution on this,

Krato smara … kritam smara …

Contemplate whether anything was 'done' and whether there was any 'doer' …

Krato smara … kritam smara …

Contemplate on the 'doer' and on the 'done' to determine their true nature and relationship.

Krato smara … kritam smara …vayuranilamathedam bhasmaantagam shareeram …

Contemplate whether there can be any 'doer' as all the bodies that "do" are nothing on their own; and everything that a body ever "does" is actually a natural transaction between matter and energy which are vested in the action that permeates them as well as everything that is permeated by them ... is there anything that is manipulated in the first place?! Then, is anything 'done' at all??!! Then, where is a 'doer'???!!!

Contemplate … if you seek a resolution …

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

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KARTA PURUKH

Karta is not the karta…

The Karta is indeed the Akarta…

For, the freedom to`do', He gave to you…

And chose to remain the compassionate loving One-ness ..

Ek-Omkar…

Ek-Omkar,

One-ness of your Being and His own Being….

Pure Silence…

The Nothingness .

The Shoonya

Purnam .

In His Choosing ,

In Love, choosing to give you freedom of Being….

To be, to do, to play, to sow, to reap.….

In His Compassion, remaining only as The Law…

The One Law….

The Immutable law…

Just the undoing of that you must perforce ` do'

In so Being…

He became… the All doing…

The all Doer…

And,

If your Intellect reels under the weight of trying to understand

Understand the Non-understandable..

Knowing the Unknowable ….

Better that you stop trying…

Just adopt one of the two as your Doing….

That …..

He indeed is the all Doer. All doing… you do nothing !

OR

You are the doer… Just you…

He is indeed the loving father

Indulgence supreme allowing you total freedom to do !

The Choice is yours…..

The Immutable Law…

Will take care of the rest…

Effortlessly, one day, some day…. when Time ceases to be.

In the Eternity of This Moment Now

The Understanding will dawn on you…

That Doing and Not-doing are Not - two.

The Karta… is He…

He , who is the Akarta

The Akarta, truly , is the All doer.

And,

You….?

You were un-necessarily running hither and thither..

Running, doing…….

DoingThis and That … ! Ek omkar Sat nam…….

AUM

narinder bhandari

--------------------------

The Doer is your own Atma's Godliness within you, which is an Amsha of the Eternal God.

It is within the sphere of Maya, which is weaved by this God, and therefore your action is guided

by your Prarabdha of Karma-borne-tendencies, at the mind and intellect level, which are modified by your experience and knowledge gained in this life, and which have to be surpassed for it to shine through without any hindrance, obstacles or curtains.

If the spider moves, the entire cobweb of Maya moves. The fly caught in the cobweb, thinks he

moved it, and forgets that the Maya is the cobweb, moved by the Spider, and the fly is actually caught

in it !!

Is God a Spider-man ?----Yes !!!

d

Durgesh Mankikar,MD

----PLEASE READ PREVIOUS SADHAK POSTINGS ON THIS TOPIC. Sadhaks please be brief,respectful and relavant. Thank you,Gita Talk Moderators,Ram RamThere is No Doership in the Selfsadhaka/message/1394Neither God is the Doer, Nor Self (Jeev) is the Doer.sadhaka/message/1582Doership and Enjoyership are Merely Assumedsadhaka/message/1629There is No Doership, Nor Enjoyership in the Selfsadhaka/message/1895--------PRIOR GITA TALK MESSAGE.... SUMMARYShree HariRam Ram!Very good response to the questions! I would like to add to the response forquestion #3 (Verse 13-34) in green -13th Chapter of Gita predominantly deals with Jnana Yoga, in Jnana Yoga, therealization is through use of Viveka and Vichaar, pure intellect transcends toViveka according to Swamiji Maharaj, which in turn will lead to acceptance bythe Self!In contrast, for the Bhakti Yoga the realization comes through the acceptance bythe Self through complete surrender to God as already explained by Madhviji inthe response in red.With warm regards,A devotee!Madan Kaura----Please see comments in red.Questions:1) Is this just a matter of knowing (jnana)? Or is it somethingthat one has to realize (through anubhava)?The jnana that we talk about is knowledge through our intellect. We have merelylearnt these facts without accepting them. The learning is by the intellect (apart of prakriti). Realisation comes from acceptance - not be learning.Acceptance is not done by mind or intellect - it is done by the Self. What isstated in the Gita is true. They can be experienced by acceptance only. In fact,we all have experienced this fact. We just do not give it importance. Whoamongst us holds ourself responsible for the circulation of blood, for thedigestion of food? These are actions that happen naturally - we do not holdourself to be the doer of these actions. If you are engrossed in a particularactivity you will not even realise it if an elephant passes in front of you. Youbecome the experiencer only when you join yourself with the activity. When youbecome the doer or have a desire for the result.So the realisation comes by acceptance. The experience is actually youracceptance.2) Since the Self is neither a doer, it is flawless, and untaintedby anything, why has Lord Krishna given so much importance anddedicated chapters of the Gita to that which is born of prakriti(nature), such as Gunas - Rajas, Tamas, Sattva, eight limbs ofyoga, purification of thoughts, actions etc.As stated by Madanji, the Gita is for everyone and different people are atdifferent stages. The percentage of realisation and acceptance differs. Thereality has been stated and all means to realise the reality has also beenstated. The Gita does not give you just one path - it gives you all the paths.You can choose whichever one suits you best. The fact that this question hasbeen asked, shows its importance. Lord Krishna has given it so much importancebecause we are so much attached to prakriti and its Gunas, even though we areflawless and untainted.3) Further in Gita 13:35, Lord Krishna also says that, "the one whoperceives with the eye of wisdom, this distinction, and sees theSelf as separate from Prakriti has attained the SupremeConsciousness." How is one to get beyond just knowing and actuallyperceive this distinction between Self (Knower of Field) andPrakriti - the Field (Body, Mind, Intellect, Ego and all that isborn of nature). How is one to truly realize the depth of thismessage? Does Gita elaborate on the means to attain thisrealization?The true depth of this message is realised only by His Grace. His Grace isalways on us. We just have to accept His Grace. We just have to realise HisGrace.Realisation comes from acceptance. As Swamiji used to say -'Once, with a simple heart and with determination, firmly ACCEPT -i. I am only God's.ii. Only God is mine.iii. Only God IS.iv. Everything is only God.This is a sure shot way of realisation. There is no doubt, can be no doubt init. Those with a reasoning and thinking mind can think and reason all that theywant to but in the end they will have to come to accepting this fact - becauseit is THE TRUTH.Ram RamRamkrishna Prapann--------------------------|| Shree Hari ||Ram Ram25th February 2010, Thursday, Falgun Shukla EkadashiVikram Samvat 2066, Sri Krishna Samvaat 5235Now let us think over – Where does a desire abide? Several say that the desireis in the mind. But actually a desire does not abide in the mind, rather itcomes into (visits) the mind - "Prajahaati yadaa kaamaansarvaanpaarthmanogataan" (Gita 2/55). The mind is an inner instrument. In an instrumentthere are no desires. Does a pen have a desire to write? Does a motor carhave a desire to move? No! If we hold that the desire resides in the mind,then if the desire is not satiated, the mind should suffer pain. But it is thedoer (Self) that undergoes suffering resulting from un-fulfillment of desire. Therefore in fact the desire does not abide in the instrument (mind, intellect),but abides in the doer (agent). An instrument (karan) depends on the doer(kartaa). Being entangled in the duality in the form of happiness andunhappiness, resulting from fulfillment and un-fulfillment of desires, man'sdiscriminating faculty does not function properly and he holds the desire to bein the mind.Now let us reflect on - Who is the doer? If mind was the doer (agent), then itwould not act being subservient to the intellect. But it is everyone'sexperience that the mind renounces the desire to do a thing, that the intellectdetermines (decides) not to do, and it begins to desire to do the act that theintellect determines (decides) to do. But even the intellect is not anindependent agent; because the intellect is also an instrument. When a manderives pleasure from satisfying a desire, then the intellect decides to do thataction. But the man who knows that the enjoyment of pleasures results in pain,renounces the pleasure derived from fulfillment of desire; then his intellect,instead of being inclined towards pleasures, decides to renounce the desire forpleasure. The instrument is dependent on the agent and is very beneficial inaccomplishing an act - "Sadhaktam karnam" (Paani. Astaa 1/4/42). But doer isindependent - "Swatantra kartaa" (Paani. Astaa 1/4/54). The Self is also notthe doer (agent), because if there was doer-ship in the Self, then thatdoer-ship would never go away. Therefore in the Gita, Bhagwaan has negated thesense of doer-ship in the Self - "sharirasthopi kaunteya, na karoti nalipyate." (Gita 13/31). The self, though dwelling in the body, neither actsnor is tainted. In fact, he who experiences (becomes happy and sad), he is thedoer (agent).From "Manav Maatre Kalyan ke liye" pg 125 and "For Salvation of Mankind" pg 130by Swami Ramsukhdasji---------------------

February 27, 2010

Then who is the doer? Could anybody please help clarify this.The mind is not the doer, the intellect is not the doer, the Self is not thedoer. Then who is the doer. Or will it be a mystery.RaamKuldeep Chaturvedi======================================================

NEW POSTING

Shree Hari

|| Ram Ram ||

Dear Kuldeepji, thanks for a good question!

Swamiji Maharaj has addressed this question directly in Gita Prabhodini (Page 500, commentary on Gita: 18-16) and (Page 87, commentary on Gita: 3-27):

IN ALL ACTIONS 'DOER' IS THE MAIN ENTITY BUT WHO IS THIS DOER?

THERE SEEMS TO BE AN APPEARANCE OF DOER-SHIP IN CHETNA (SELF). IN FACT 'DOER-SHIP' IS NOT THE CHETNA BUT

THE DOER IS HE WHO HAS ASSUMED THE FALSE RELATIONSHIP OF CHETNA WITH JADA (PRAKRITI OR NATURE). As is pointed out in Gitaji:

''ahmakaravimudahatma karta 'ham iti manyate" (Gita: 3-27)

- The ignorant, deluded by egoism thinks, "I am the doer".

Jada part (Nature, Prakriti or body) is a separate entity from Chena part (Atma). All actions are done in Jada only, there are no actions performed in Chetna. As it is said:

"sharirstho 'pi kaunteya no karoti na lipyate" (Gita 3-31)

- Self, though dwelling in the body, it neither acts, nor is tainted.

The actions and objects have a beginning and an end, but Chetna has neither a beginning nor an end.

In fact there is no doer, neither Chetna (self) nor Jada (Prakriti). But if one has to believe in a doer, then the spiritual aspirant should believe the Prakriti (or Jada) to be the doer.

Lord has declared in Gitaji that there are five causes for any action:

1. Prakriti - 'prakrteh kriyamanani' Actions are caused by and done by the modes of nature (Gita: 3-27), 'prakrityai 'va ca karmani' all actions are done by Prakriti (Gita: 13-29)

2. Guna - 'guna guneshu varanta', Gunas that move amidst the Gunas (Gita 3-28)

'na 'nyam gunebhyah kartarm', The seer perceives no agent other than the Gunas (Gita:14-19)

3. Senses - 'indriyani 'ndriyarthesu vartanta', senses are moving among the sense objects (Gita: 5-9)

4. Nature of person - 'svabhavas tu pravartate', It is nature that functions (deriving its motive power from God (Gita: 5-14), prakritim yani bhutaniâ€¦, Beings follow their nature (Gita: 3-33)

5. Five causes (Panch hetu) - 'adhishthanam tatha karta' â€¦, The seat, the doer, various sense functions, diverse activities and the fifth is providence (Gita 18-14)

In the five cause mentioned above, the main one is 'Apraa Prikriti (Lower nature) or Jada part. Till today the Jiva (individual) has done many actions in many Yonies (species), among those actions, none was associated with self. How can the darkness come close to sun. The reason being that entity containing actions, body and objects is entirely separate from the self.

|| Ram Ram ||

Humble regards,

Madan Kaura

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Dear Kuldeep Chaturvedi,I thought I would build upon your correct statement, courtesy of Swamiji:The mind is not the doer, the intellect is not the doer, the Self is not thedoer. Then who is the doer. Or will it be a mystery.Comments by Swamiji, Sadhaka -Sanjivani page 1511: Therefore doership and enjoyership are merely assumed—'kartahamiti manyate' (3/27). When a striver discriminately, totally renounces attachment to the body viz., wipes out the sense of 'I' and 'mine' (which is actually not there), then he remains neither a doer nor an enjoyer but only a divine entity remains. In this way a striver, having realized the absence of doership and enjoyership in him, is liberated viz., he does not remain a doer or an enjoyer (experiencer) but remains the Pure Self (Divine Entity).Thus I understand the doer is a slave to illusion.By means of meditation I came to understand, every thing is perfect, and if it is not perfect, it is ones own fault! In fact there is a barrier between the Higher Self, that is Pure Love, and those that dwell in the mundane, the Indwelling of Pure love cannot descend in to that place of illusion, because it is not real.Inspired by a quote, regarding the Lover and the Beloved, my understanding is, ultimately the two become indistinguishable, all barriers have gone. (These Barriers never existed).So as I see it, if you are trying to find the doer, you will find it under the lamp of illusion!Om... Shanti...Mike (K).

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Hari OmIt appears that it is God's will that I must write again. Hence making an exception. I found earlier discussions between Madanji, some Madhaviji and Ramakrishna Prapann to be interesting. I have few serious resevations regarding their conclusions - though they are at a very high and subtle levels, but for them, may be they are very necessary to sort out. I shall deal with them if they are receptive to corrections.Let me reply Kuldipji !Mind/Intellect/Senses/Aham is not 'Karta' (Doer) ! Self is not Karta . Then who is "doer"? "Karta"(Doer) is that who becomes "Bhokta"(enjoyer/sufferer)! You ... Your "Self" ...become the "Bhokta" ! Same you become "Maheshwar" also ! Same you become witness also. Same you become "acceptor/permitter" also - BG 13:22. You become "bhokta" by forming an affinity with Prakruti/ Gunas - BG 7:4 ! Self adopts the world and hence is called "Jeeva" !Jeeva is Bhokta. Hence Jeeva is Karta. If you are not "prukruti-stha" and are "sva-stha" - you are neither Karta nor Bhokta and hence not Jeeva. But when you ... I repeat... When Your "Self" (pure soul) .. Establishes affinity with Prakruti then ...You ..I repeat...your "self" .. Suffers/ Enjoys ! You become cause for "sufferring/enjoyment" - BG 13:20 !!The form of your "Self" is "Existence" ! In form there is neither "Karta" nor "Bhokta"- BG 13:31. You (Form, Pure Soul) are the knower of 'bhoga' - the very knowledge form. In "existence" there is no "bhokta-ness" (enjoyership/sufferership). That existence is in unity with with all pervading universal Paramatma.If you "accept" , your self to be established in Body, then you and you ONLY are Karta and Bhokta, otherwise neither 'not' (asat/inert) is Karta, nor 'IS' (sentient, pure soul) is Karta. Therefore, remove your self from 'not' as well as from 'Is' ! Neither keep unity with inert/asat nor keep unity with sentient/sat.If you see "shoonyata". (emptiness/zeroness/ blank/nothing) ...then you are knower of that 'shoonyata' and that shoonyata is subject matter of knowledge. One who knows nothingness (shoonyata) is never shoonya(nothing) ! You are witness then of that nothingness, you are illuminator of that, you are basis of that !!!Thus ONLY... Jeeva is Karta and Bhokta not ignorance or some thought or some that kind of any animal etc !! Ignorance can never be cause of sorrows (A separate topic). It is effect not cause. Even the cause of your forming affinity with Prakruti is not ignorance, but disrespect to Viveka and desire to enjoy worldly pleasures. Coming to this lover merging into love etc talks- remove yourself from "this" as well as from "IS" ! Then only yoga will remain , only EQUANIMITY will remain. There is no personality in "IS" ! Thus there will be no Yogi (Karma Yoga) or Jnani (Jnana Yoga) or Lover (Bhakti Yoga) remaining behind. Only Yoga or Jnana or Love respectively will remain.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ----------------

Namaste.

It appears to me - and I am may be in error - that there is not a consistent meaning or interpretation of the term "DOER." Even amongst knowledgeable sadhaks there are varying interpretations of "DOER."

What do you mean by "DOER"? Just mere deeds and actions? At times, the term "ACTION" is also not clearly defined.

I humbly submit that we should present a well-defined meaning of the term "DOER" so all sadhaks would be in the same wavelength when discussing one of the most important issue in GITA, and HINDUISM.

Ram Ram,

Deosaran Bisnath

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Sun, Moon, Clouds, Ocean Water, Trees do not have mind or intellect. Maybe they do not have Self. But Sun burns anf gives light, the Earth moves round the Sun, Moon reflects Sunlight, Clouds burst and transforms into rain, Ocean water curns and evaporates to form clouds. These things happen. But we say these things do such things. But do they really do anything? They do not do anything. It is the property/ guna and nature of these things that they seems to be associated with certain events and phenomenong. So things happens but no body does. There does not have to be doer. The concept of doer is the product of mind and intellect - but in reality doer does not exist and does not need to exist for certain phenomenon and events to take place. What is needed is properties or gunas that leads certain objects including life forms to behave in certain manner under certain conditions. A car runs but stops if there is no fuel. Car does not doing anything. The phenomenon of car running happens given the properties of the car and certain properties of other objexcts in the environment of the car. A man eats at certain times if food is available. Man eating is a phenonmenon that results from the properties / gunas/ nature of the man and other objects surrounding the object man. It is not necessary to really believe than man acts or does: the phoenomenon of man's behavious occurs. There is no doer. The concept of doer is an illusion. You do not need a door for the Universe, Creation and the processes that continues in the Creation. So, your question just does not arise. Or, if you want to know who does, the answer is no body does, doer does not exist. Things happen without doers. Since this is the Truth, Gita says remove ego of doing. If you think anyone is doing, then it must be the slave of the Gunas. If there is anything you want to be do not be doer and therefore a slave of gunas. The only alternative is to recognise that on one is doer. If you remain steady and settled in that Truth, you will identify yourself with an identity of non-doer. As non-doer, all are the same -equanimity follows automatically. That non-doer cannot logically have any desire and therefore any action to satisfy that desire. Your body, mind, intellect may still be part of the phenomenon of satisfying desire through certain behaviour. Just like the Sun burns but the Sun is not the doer of burning. The phenomenon of burning of a type is what we call burning: that ios the guna of Sun. I or You do not do anything nor does he or she : none is a doer.

One that realizes this Truth every moment is the Self: But the Self also does not - it is not a doer of realization of Truth. The Truth realized state is named Self - Atman or Paramatman.

Please let us not think that Self is not like a grand old man who cannot work / do and therefore is thinking of God all the time. Self is not a man or woman or animal or a physical object: it is the state or realized truth as against the state of slavery of Gunas. Both exists simultaneously - the first nevers changes and continues indefinitely while the later changes virtually every monent and transforms and at some stage just disappears. The first is not observable by senses, the second is an observable phenomenon for the senses.

Basudeb Sen

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There is only one doer..........It is his grand play....

Question is who are we? or Who am I?

Do I exist? or Do we exist?

Body, mind and intellect are the means for Manan (contemplation) and understanding of truth to experience this truth. Self experiences it......and is the doer...., the story writer....the director....., the creator.....

Sushil Jain

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Dear Sadhakas,Hare Krishna. This is in response to a question from a sadhaka. All actions take place because of modes of nature. Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita," Prakrteh kriyamanani,Gunaih karmani sarvasah,Ahankara vimudhatma,Kartaham iti manyate. "( Gitaji 3, 27)Which means,'When all the actions take place because of modes of nature, a foolish person because of false ego thinks he( or she) is actually doing those actions. 'The modes of nature are Sattva (goodness), rajo(passion), tamo( ignorance).The supersoul( paramatma) gives certain freedom to soul ( jivatma) to decide for himself or herself. The supersoul is the witness for every action, thought, and word. A person situated in Krishna consciousness, clearly sees that gross ( subtle body) is created from material nature, under the direction of Supreme Personality of Godhead and hence bodily activities as well as mental activities should be engaged in His service. Actions continue to take place even when we think we are not doing any. The best course is to do actions for the welfare of others and in the name of the Lord. Thank YouHare Krishna. Prasad.A.Iragavarapu, M.D

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Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Real doer is the "the thought" saying "I am the doer"! If you can look at your experience, you will see that while doing any action, the thought of being a doer is not present, but soon after action is done, the thought appears: "I did it" or "I didn't" or such similar thoughts arise. Doer is an "after-thought"! It is also possible that during the action, this thought may arise if interruptions happen. It is hard to notice this fact of our experience as it happens so fast!Now this "doer" thought originates from "me", a person - ego - ahambhav! Such a "me" develops over time from childhood onward remaining at the center considering itself as the doer-enjoy-er. If we go deeper, we can see that it is due to body identification, Self apparently imposes limitations on itself and mind becomes its tool to hold history of such a person in terms of likes-dislikes, latent tendencies, attachments all as thoughts(beliefs, opinions, biases etc etc!The history is really conditioning-Karma in terms of memory only, but needs a center to act which is "me". Thus a body-mind provides an anchor to root such "ego-me". Put differently, it is a kind of programming of body-mind organism by the culture prevalent in desh-kaal or time and place such a person is born and raised! This Programming is the "doer-enjoy-er" working its way through individual body. It may appear that person is doing, but person is only a tool, an excuse through which karmas-conditioning works themselves out and keep recycling karmas through new bodies! Ignorance is at the root of all this, until God bestows Grace!Swamiji, below, puts it as "In fact, he who experiences (becomes happy and sad), he is the doer (agent). " Thus it is clear happy-sad is Ego who usurps the doership!This is anatomy of ego-me as I understand it!Namaskar.........Pratap Bhatt

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Shree Paramatmane Namah

when there is no doer whatsoever, cannot be at all, then why pursue it's search? That which regulates and governs everything in accordance with natural laws and principles, through That alone all things are taking place and getting done. But anyone alive cannot show you that this one is the doer. If someone reveals to you the doer, then please tell me as well, as per my knowledge, Swamiji also could not find the doer. So be it, Vineet Sarvottam

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Dear Sadaks,Jeevathuma is separate from Paramathuma. Jeevathuma acquires certain desires, and Vasanas. The Jeeva has to obtain a body for that to shed away it` s desires/vasanas. It can be human body, plant, animal, Indras, Gandervas Etc all within the circle of 13 Lokas. Once a body got hold of by Jeeva it starts functioning to complete desires. In this process the mind (Buddhi) leads one to go into the desire. Like a person going for gambling, womanizing, robbing Etc and but due to previous Good Karmas there is also desire thereby developed towards Sat Sangh, Bajans, Sevas, Meditation Etc. Examples; There are persons walking across a street where there is divine song is broadcast by amplifier speaker. All persons have common hearing faculty, but only one or two stand there to listen. Other just walk away. We see young persons attending divine lectures. But it is 2%. Balance 98 % are busy with entertainment. This is because of their Karma Pala. Here the doer is the body and Jeeva is witness. The intellect (Vivechan) keeps on warning about good and bad. The intellect is guided from Paramathuma energy within ones own body. Bagavan Shiva is destroyer based on ones own Karma Pala. So also is Sustain-er is Bagavan Vishnu. Bagavan Bhrama is creator. All three works strictly on ones own Karmas. Bhramaji four heads denotes Chatur Yug (4 yugas), creator with knowledge known as Saraswath. Sri Vishnu is sustainability in Violet colour, with aid of money (Wealth- those days there was NO currency) Maha Lakshmi and Garuda (Speed) required for sustainability. Sri Shiva Bagavan destroys the body in time span allotted, and that time goes away very fast (But the time moves like Bedfellow for ignorant humans that not realizable) and ends up with Ashes (Asthi said in Geetha). But during life span mother Parvathi gives Sakthi to perform Karmas. So the doer (The body- which is said as, Maanusha Deham Dulabam) can perform (doer) any act of goodness, purity, divinity, scarifies Etc and escape rebirth. Alternatively do all the bad and be born again and again. Ref: Baja Govindam, Vivekachudamani, Geetha, Garuda Puran and Upanashids. Due to the doer (BODY) the Jeeva gets trapped into different bodies to complete its desires or escapes to Mukthi.B.Sathyanarayan -------------

Then who is the doer? Could anybody please help clarify this.

One who percieves the doership is the doer in the very perception. Till you percieve doership, you are the doer. Doership implies that (1) there is multiplicity in action; (2) action is under the governance of objects; (3) the domain of action is within an individual's perview. If your perception agrees with these postulates, you are a doer. Note that doership being variant and plural conforming to the nature of the corresponding perception, insists variance and plurality in the doer as well. In case, you develop a doubt regarding these postulates, you may want to consider Lord KrishNas instruction in Bhagavadgita regarding the same ...

For example, Lord KrishNa states at one point that,

Na kartritvam na karmaani lokasya srijati prabhuh |

Na karamphalasamyogam svabhaavastu pravartate ||

There is no doership of any kind as such. The action is absolutely independent and remains as is by itself i.e. action is self-effulgant and self-sufficient. Therefore, there is niether plurality in the action nor there is any doership to overlord the action. The world and its objects merge in the action as per their inherent nature as they are and on their own.

If you do not percieve any particular doership by realizing how the action transcends the authority of anything and everything, there is no doership to dictate terms to the action; and hence there is no doer. Therefore, either you are a doer or there is none. That is your call. Therefore, to get a resolution on this,

Krato smara … kritam smara …

Contemplate whether anything was 'done' and whether there was any 'doer' …

Krato smara … kritam smara …

Contemplate on the 'doer' and on the 'done' to determine their true nature and relationship.

Krato smara … kritam smara …vayuranilamathedam bhasmaantagam shareeram …

Contemplate whether there can be any 'doer' as all the bodies that "do" are nothing on their own; and everything that a body ever "does" is actually a natural transaction between matter and energy which are vested in the action that permeates them as well as everything that is permeated by them ... is there anything that is manipulated in the first place?! Then, is anything 'done' at all??!! Then, where is a 'doer'???!!!

Contemplate … if you seek a resolution …

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

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KARTA PURUKH

Karta is not the karta…

The Karta is indeed the Akarta… For, the freedom to`do', He gave to you…

And chose to remain the compassionate loving One-ness ..

Ek-Omkar…

Ek-Omkar,

One-ness of your Being and His own Being…. Pure Silence… The Nothingness . The Shoonya Purnam .

In His Choosing ,

In Love, choosing to give you freedom of Being….

To be, to do, to play, to sow, to reap.….In His Compassion, remaining only as The Law…

The One Law…. The Immutable law… Just the undoing of that you must perforce ` do'

In so Being… He became… the All doing… The all Doer…

And,

If your Intellect reels under the weight of trying to understand

Understand the Non-understandable..

Knowing the Unknowable …. Better that you stop trying…Just adopt one of the two as your Doing….

That …..He indeed is the all Doer. All doing… you do nothing !

OR

You are the doer… Just you… He is indeed the loving father

Indulgence supreme allowing you total freedom to do !

The Choice is yours….. The Immutable Law… Will take care of the rest…

Effortlessly, one day, some day…. when Time ceases to be.

In the Eternity of This Moment Now

The Understanding will dawn on you…

That Doing and Not-doing are Not - two.

The Karta… is He…

He , who is the Akarta The Akarta, truly , is the All doer.

And, You….?

You were un-necessarily running hither and thither..

Running, doing……. DoingThis and That … ! Ek omkar Sat nam…….

AUM

narinder bhandari

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The Doer is your own Atma's Godliness within you, which is an Amsha of the Eternal God.

It is within the sphere of Maya, which is weaved by this God, and therefore your action is guided

by your Prarabdha of Karma-borne-tendencies, at the mind and intellect level, which are modified by your experience and knowledge gained in this life, and which have to be surpassed for it to shine through without any hindrance, obstacles or curtains.

If the spider moves, the entire cobweb of Maya moves. The fly caught in the cobweb, thinks he

moved it, and forgets that the Maya is the cobweb, moved by the Spider, and the fly is actually caught

in it !!

Is God a Spider-man ?----Yes !!!

d

Durgesh Mankikar,MD

----PLEASE READ PREVIOUS SADHAK POSTINGS ON THIS TOPIC. Sadhaks please be brief,respectful and relavant. Thank you,Gita Talk Moderators,Ram RamThere is No Doership in the Selfsadhaka/message/1394Neither God is the Doer, Nor Self (Jeev) is the Doer.sadhaka/message/1582Doership and Enjoyership are Merely Assumedsadhaka/message/1629There is No Doership, Nor Enjoyership in the Selfsadhaka/message/1895--------PRIOR GITA TALK MESSAGE.... SUMMARYShree HariRam Ram!Very good response to the questions! I would like to add to the response forquestion #3 (Verse 13-34) in green -13th Chapter of Gita predominantly deals with Jnana Yoga, in Jnana Yoga, therealization is through use of Viveka and Vichaar, pure intellect transcends toViveka according to Swamiji Maharaj, which in turn will lead to acceptance bythe Self!In contrast, for the Bhakti Yoga the realization comes through the acceptance bythe Self through complete surrender to God as already explained by Madhviji inthe response in red.With warm regards,A devotee!Madan Kaura----

Ram Ram

Please see comments in red.

Questions: 1) Is this just a matter of knowing (jnana)? Or is it something that one has to realize (through anubhava)?

The jnana that we talk about is knowledge through our intellect. We have merely learnt these facts without accepting them. The learning is by the intellect (a part of prakriti). Realisation comes from acceptance - not be learning. Acceptance is not done by mind or intellect - it is done by the Self. What is stated in the Gita is true. They can be experienced by acceptance only. In fact, we all have experienced this fact. We just do not give it importance. Who amongst us holds ourself responsible for the circulation of blood, for the digestion of food? These are actions that happen naturally - we do not hold ourself to be the doer of these actions. If you are engrossed in a particular activity you will not even realise it if an elephant passes in front of you. You become the experiencer only when you join yourself with the activity. When you become the doer or have a desire for the result.

So the realisation comes by acceptance. The experience is actually your acceptance.

2) Since the Self is neither a doer, it is flawless, and untainted by anything, why has Lord Krishna given so much importance and dedicated chapters of the Gita to that which is born of prakriti (nature), such as Gunas - Rajas, Tamas, Sattva, eight limbs of yoga, purification of thoughts, actions etc.

As stated by Madanji, the Gita is for everyone and different people are at different stages. The percentage of realisation and acceptance differs. The reality has been stated and all means to realise the reality has also been stated. The Gita does not give you just one path - it gives you all the paths. You can choose whichever one suits you best. The fact that this question has been asked, shows its importance. Lord Krishna has given it so much importance because we are so much attached to prakriti and its Gunas, even though we are flawless and untainted.

3) Further in Gita 13:35, Lord Krishna also says that, "the one who perceives with the eye of wisdom, this distinction, and sees the Self as separate from Prakriti has attained the Supreme Consciousness." How is one to get beyond just knowing and actually perceive this distinction between Self (Knower of Field) and Prakriti - the Field (Body, Mind, Intellect, Ego and all that is born of nature). How is one to truly realize the depth of this message? Does Gita elaborate on the means to attain this realization? The true depth of this message is realised only by His Grace. His Grace is always on us. We just have to accept His Grace. We just have to realise His Grace.

Realisation comes from acceptance. As Swamiji used to say -

'Once, with a simple heart and with determination, firmly ACCEPT -

i. I am only God's.

ii. Only God is mine.

iii. Only God IS.

iv. Everything is only God.

This is a sure shot way of realisation. There is no doubt, can be no doubt in it. Those with a reasoning and thinking mind can think and reason all that they want to but in the end they will have to come to accepting this fact - because it is THE TRUTH.

Ram Ram

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Shree HariRam Ram!Some comments to promote further discussion and enquiry... on Geeta shaloka13-31 ...1) Is this just a matter of knowing (jnana)? Or is it somethingthat one has to realize (through anubhava)?Comment:Simply knowing this fact (nature of Kshetra and Kshetrajna) is not of much goodwithout the personal experience it is only a burden, it can give us a falsepridethat we know and others do not know. Anubhava is very essential, that is whythe scriptures follow the saints and not the other way around, because thesaintshave the experience, Kabir was one example. A crude example - knowing withoutexperience is like donkey carrying a load of scriptures.2) Since the Self is neither a doer, it is flawless, and untaintedby anything, why has Lord Krishna given so much importance anddedicated chapters of the Gita to that which is born of prakriti(nature), such as Gunas - Rajas, Tamas, Sattva, eight limbs ofyoga, purification of thoughts, actions etc.Comment:Gita is a complete sastra, it is meant for all people coming from differentbackgrounds, different stages of evolution, different sampardayas etc. Majorityare not ready to accept or have faith in the idea of non-doership right at theoutset, scientific background is necessary for the reasoning mind.Lord Krishna is expounding the relationship between the three entities -God, Jiva and Jagat. Discussion of gunas is essential to understand the workingof Prakriti, to show the wide diversity in the individuals. Even though,everyone's body is made up of the same five elements and soul is the same beinga ray of supreme consciousness but yet there are differences in the mindcomplex.In essence Gita is taking us forward from whichever station we happen to be at.3) Further in Gita 13:35, Lord Krishna also says that, "the one whoperceives with the eye of wisdom, this distinction, and sees theSelf as separate from Prakriti has attained the SupremeConsciousness." How is one to get beyond just knowing and actuallyperceive this distinction between Self (Knower of Field) andPrakriti - the Field (Body, Mind, Intellect, Ego and all that isborn of nature). How is one to truly realize the depth of thismessage? Does Gita elaborate on the means to attain thisrealization?Comment about Shaloka # 3-34 -There are many places in Gita (e.g., Chap 2 / 11-30)explain what is real and unreal nature of man. Those with a reasoning mindcan reason and toil through the present life and many next lives tounderstand these truths. Reason will take us to a point only and then stops.The journey for the jnani is a tough struggle with lots of trials andtribulations with limited success particularly in Kaliyuga.Shaloka 7-14 says My Maya (Divine illusion of Mine)made up of three Gunas is very difficult to surmount; but those who take refugein Me alone, cross over this illusion".Those with devotional tendencies simply accept that there is nothingelse except God. They believe that are God's and so is everything else.They firmly take the refuge at the holy feet then do not have to tax theirmind anymore,they attain to permanant Vishram sthiti only.With kind regards,A devoteeMadan Kaura

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Shree HariRAM RAM ! Jai Shree Krishna !Lord Krishna, says in the Bhagavad Gita Shloka 13:32"Anaadityam Nirgunatvaat Paramatmayam AvyayahSharirastho pi kaunteya, na karoti, ne lipyateh.""The consciousness (Atma) is without beginning, immutable and devoidof any material attributes. Oh son of Kunti, although dwelling inthis body, it is neither a doer, nor is it influenced by anyexperience." Gita 13:32Simply worded , the Self, (Atma) is neither a doer, nor anexperiencer.Questions:1) Is this just a matter of knowing (jnana)? Or is it somethingthat one has to realize (through anubhava)?2) Since the Self is neither a doer, it is flawless, and untaintedby anything, why has Lord Krishna given so much importance anddedicated chapters of the Gita to that which is born of prakriti(nature), such as Gunas - Rajas, Tamas, Sattva, eight limbs ofyoga, purification of thoughts, actions etc.3) Further in Gita 13:35, Lord Krishna also says that, "the one whoperceives with the eye of wisdom, this distinction, and sees theSelf as separate from Prakriti has attained the SupremeConsciousness." How is one to get beyond just knowing and actuallyperceive this distinction between Self (Knower of Field) andPrakriti - the Field (Body, Mind, Intellect, Ego and all that isborn of nature). How is one to truly realize the depth of thismessage? Does Gita elaborate on the means to attain thisrealization?A sadhak

Madhvi DoshiRam Ram ! Jai Shree Krishna !--------------------------|| Shree Hari ||Ram Ram25th February 2010, Thursday, Falgun Shukla EkadashiVikram Samvat 2066, Sri Krishna Samvaat 5235Now let us think over – Where does a desire abide? Several say that the desireis in the mind. But actually a desire does not abide in the mind, rather itcomes into (visits) the mind - "Prajahaati yadaa kaamaansarvaanpaarthmanogataan" (Gita 2/55). The mind is an inner instrument. In an instrumentthere are no desires. Does a pen have a desire to write? Does a motor carhave a desire to move? No! If we hold that the desire resides in the mind,then if the desire is not satiated, the mind should suffer pain. But it is thedoer (Self) that undergoes suffering resulting from un-fulfillment of desire. Therefore in fact the desire does not abide in the instrument (mind, intellect),but abides in the doer (agent). An instrument (karan) depends on the doer(kartaa). Being entangled in the duality in the form of happiness andunhappiness, resulting from fulfillment and un-fulfillment of desires, man'sdiscriminating faculty does not function properly and he holds the desire to bein the mind.Now let us reflect on - Who is the doer? If mind was the doer (agent), then itwould not act being subservient to the intellect. But it is everyone'sexperience that the mind renounces the desire to do a thing, that the intellectdetermines (decides) not to do, and it begins to desire to do the act that theintellect determines (decides) to do. But even the intellect is not anindependent agent; because the intellect is also an instrument. When a manderives pleasure from satisfying a desire, then the intellect decides to do thataction. But the man who knows that the enjoyment of pleasures results in pain,renounces the pleasure derived from fulfillment of desire; then his intellect,instead of being inclined towards pleasures, decides to renounce the desire forpleasure. The instrument is dependent on the agent and is very beneficial inaccomplishing an act - "Sadhaktam karnam" (Paani. Astaa 1/4/42). But doer isindependent - "Swatantra kartaa" (Paani. Astaa 1/4/54). The Self is also notthe doer (agent), because if there was doer-ship in the Self, then thatdoer-ship would never go away. Therefore in the Gita, Bhagwaan has negated thesense of doer-ship in the Self - "sharirasthopi kaunteya, na karoti nalipyate." (Gita 13/31). The self, though dwelling in the body, neither actsnor is tainted. In fact, he who experiences (becomes happy and sad), he is thedoer (agent).From "Manav Maatre Kalyan ke liye" pg 125 and "For Salvation of Mankind" pg 130by Swami Ramsukhdasji---------------------

February 28, 2010

Then who is the doer? Could anybody please help clarify this.The mind is not the doer, the intellect is not the doer, the Self is not thedoer. Then who is the doer. Or will it be a mystery.RaamKuldeep Chaturvedi======================================================

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Shree Hari- Dear Kuldeep Chaturvedi,I thought I would build upon your correct statement, courtesy of Swamiji:The mind is not the doer, the intellect is not the doer, the Self is not thedoer. Then who is the doer. Or will it be a mystery.Comments by Swamiji, Sadhaka -Sanjivani page 1511: Therefore doership and enjoyership are merely assumed—'kartahamiti manyate' (3/27). When a striver discriminately, totally renounces attachment to the body viz., wipes out the sense of 'I' and 'mine' (which is actually not there), then he remains neither a doer nor an enjoyer but only a divine entity remains. In this way a striver, having realized the absence of doership and enjoyership in him, is liberated viz., he does not remain a doer or an enjoyer (experiencer) but remains the Pure Self (Divine Entity).I decided to build further on pure Gitaji/Swamiji approach, it took a while before I woke up!B.G. 3:27: All actions are performed, in all cases , by the modes of nature (prakrti). He whose mind is beguiled by egoism thinks, "I am the doer"Note! All actions..in all cases. (No exceptions!) Now Swamiji says regarding Ch.3 Verse 27 in Sadhaka-Sanjivani page 346 :The Lord declares that all actions are performed by modes of nature, not by the self. [Kuldeep Sir, there is your answer].Look deep into a couple of choice quotes of Revered Swamiji on this Chapter: Egoism is of two kinds:- (i) Real as 'I am' (relating to ones existence) (ii) Unreal (assumed) -as in 'I am body'.Page 349 .........All action done with the sense of egoism, can never lead to salvation, because egoism is the root of all misfortunes, of birth and death.I think I might have an answer for your question Madhvi : 'How is one to truly realize the depth of this message? Does Gita elaborate on the means to attain this realization?' Swamiji gives good advice in Sadhaka-Sanjivani page 347/8: Even though a striver during his disciplining period, may not feel he is above and beyond the modes of prakrti but when he accepts it to be with a strong faith, he starts feeling himself beyond prakrti.Om... Shanti...Mike Keenor

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Hari OmMy compliments to Sadhak Madhavi Doshi. You have raised very valid, deep and relevant questions- Divine Questions. Questions so important that if you arrive at correct conclusions , you straight away become eligible for reward promised by Paramatma under BG 13:23 !! Hence, Divine Sadhaks, let us accord highest respect to these questions and perform a "Jnana Yagya" as narrated in BG- 18:70.Q 1 - Simply worded , the Self, (Atma) is neither a doer, nor an experiencer.Is this just a matter of knowing (jnana)? Or is it something that one has to realize (through anubhava)?Ans: No ! Jnana here is mere "learning" / "knowing" ! Just acquiring knowledge of this fact is not going to help. You become merely a beast of burden if it is "learning" only. Because it has not become part of your experience. It is a mere theory for you. You have not yet "accepted" this. Actually, you are not believing in it. Your present experience is not suggesting this. YOUR EXPERIENCEIn your experience, you ( You/you and you only means -All Jeevas ) are "doing" as well as "sufferring" as on today. It is not that you can ever claim that you did not experience pleasures and pains. You only are sufferring ; you only become happy; you only are experiencing Dukhalayam. There is no body else on your behalf who is experiencing sorrows. You only are seen with compassion by Paramatma so that you may get rid of sorrows. You, Madhaviji, as Jeeva, are target of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, Satsanga, Lord Krishna and Gitaji. In fact, You only are bondaged. There is no one else on your behalf who is bondaged. No illusion or ignorance or something or maya or mind, or intellect or ego or body or some prakruti or some imaginary ghost is bondaged on your behalf. None of them is experiencing sorrows on your behalf. You only are thirsty for SAT, CHIT and ANANDA. You only are striving for PEACE. You only are experiencing "deficiency" inspite of "learning" that you are complete. You and you only are experiencing the viccissitudes of changes and of karmas . YOU ARE BHOKTA- BG 13:20/22 ! You are doer. You are owner. You are permitter. You are sustainer. - BG 13:22 You only go to heaven or hell. You only are sadhak. You only are embodied. Said Swamiji in a pravachan- quoted in His book - Gyaan Ke Deep Jale, Page No 18:-Jeev only becomes happy and sorrowful. That SELF does not get happy or sorrowful - this is what we have "heard" or "learnt" BUT We become happy and sorrowful- this is our "experience" !!!Now if some body says to you quoting BG- 13:31 that - the Self, (Atma) is neither a doer, nor an experiencer, then, Will you require to believe it or not ? How will you believe that ? It is not a Jnana which has yet been experienced by you. You have simply "learnt" it. You have only known it. Of what use then is this Jnana when it is not a part of your experience- except that it becomes your goal ? It is certainly not a part of your experience because you are constantly experiencing doership, enjoyership, pleasures, sorrows, etc on day to day, minute to minute, khsipram to kshipram basis ! But at the same time, what you are not experiencing is Truth ! THAT YOU ARE NOT DOER/ SUFFERER- is a Truth, no doubt about the same. It is the voice of Lord. Then why you are not experiencing Truth ? Why you are experiencing FALSE? Because you have not "accepted" - SAT. On the contrary, You have accepted ASAT/ FALSE , you have accepted "false" as "true" and wrong acceptance has immediately converted itself into your direct "experience" and HENCE you are experiencing false sorrows, false bondage, false fear, false deficiencies etc. Hence need is to "reject" the FALSE and "accept" the TRUTH. Need is is to use your Power of Belief. Need is to discriminate. Need is to give respect to your Viveka.Till you do not accept this fact, it will not form part of your experience. Because experience is the outcome of acceptance. As you accept, so you become - BG 17:3 !! Balance questions later on.Pranaams !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas, N B-----------------------

Hari OmThis refers to query of Sadhak Deosharan Bisnauth. Such queries give momentum to Satsanga. A lot a sadhaks have drawn conclusions based on "activities" (KRIYA) ! But "doership" / "suffership" has no connection with "activity"!! Doership means ownership. It is a fact that the basic nature of Prakruti is "activity". It is constantly happenning without any ownership in Prakruti. But Jeeva forms an affinity with Prakruti. When he adopts the world - BG 7:5 , then he takes "ownership" of certain "activities" which are taking place in prakruti. Thinking/Accepting/Believing- I am doer- is taking ownership. The moment Jeeva "owns" , the "activity" becomes "karma" ! Jeeva owns / becomes "Maheshwar" and "sustainer" - BG 13:22 ! Then every association of him with an activity becomes "karma" for him, and he becomes "doer" of the karma and gets bound by it. The terms "doership" or "enjoyership" arise only in respect of "karmas" owned by Jeeva believing- " I am doer" ! .It is all "acceptance" ! Acceptance converts into experience. Since Jeeva accepts ownership over an activity, he experiences the results of that activity- by means of sukha (pleasures) and dukha (sorrows) , actually only DUKHAs- only sorrows !!Jai Shree KrishnaVyas, N B ----------

Jai Shri Hari,The Jeev itself is the doer and the enjoyer. Here, the Jeev is defined as "Self/Purushha/Atmaa with its self created/accepted jeevapanaa (i.e. artificial sense of beingness)". Due to the jeevpanaa, the Self/Atma/Purushh is referred as "jeev". The Jeev can not exist without its jeevapanaa. It it exists, it will be called as Mukta/Free/Realized/Self/Atma. The Self/Atmaa, part of the Supreme Self, appears as Jeev due to the "jeevapanaa" which is nothing but a layer/curtain/granthi/bandhan created/accepted due to the influence of the qualities of the prakriti/nature from time immemorial (MAMAIWAANSO JEEVLOKE JEEVABHOOTAH -GitaJi 15/7; SATTVAM RAJASTAMAITI ...TANIBADHNAATI ...-Gitaji 14/5). Depending upon the dominance of the saattavik/raajsik/taamsik quality of the nature, the jeev becomes saatvik/raajsik/taamsik karta/doer (GitaJi 18/26-28) and the same becomes the enjoyer (PURUSHOO HI PRAKRITISHTHO BHUNKTE - Gitaji 13/21). Here, the word "PURUSHHO PRAKRITISHTHO" refers to the jeev who is nothing but "the Purushha/Self/Atma established in the prakriti/nature/inert".May God bless all!Niteesh Dubey------