Is Desire to be Released from Worldly Bondage a Selfish Pursuit?

March 5, 2010

Hari Om

I would like to congratulate all those concerned with this platform for doing a

great job of propogating our ancient wisdom and providing food for spiritual

thought

My question is -

Is MUMUKSHATVAM (Goal of Liberation, Salvation, Moksha) a desire and

is it a selfish pursuit?

Vineeta Malpani

--------------

The three basic essentials for Salvation / Liberation / Benediction:

1) Maanushatuvam, (Human birth)

2) Mumukshathuvam (Desire for Liberation, Salvation, Moksha, to be released from

worldly bondage)and

3) Maha Purusha Samshrayaha (Association of Great Souls)---

Dullabam Triyo. (rare three)

It is an essential need, not a desire, just like basic food for sustainance of

this body is an essential need, whereas, " rasgulla " (indian sweet) is a

desire..(moderators addition)

Jai Sri Krishna

Baiya Sathyanarayan

----------------

POSTED FROM A PREVIOUS TOPIC

In your recent Sadhak message on DESIRES it was shared that Desires of four

types - - Artha (Wealth); Dharma (Righteousness), " Kaama " (Passion) And Moksha

(Salvation).... and about Gita says " Desires are insatiable " and He asks Arjuna

to kill this enemy i.e. Desire (Gita 3: 37-43). My question is - Isn't a thought

not to have desires or to kill desires it self also a desire? So how do you

explain this desire? Please clarify. Thank you. sukanya chhabra

------------------

Loving Divine, Pranam.

All desires - good or bad, to do or not to do, have to go eventually. The desire

is a desire and it is binding, however, one can not attain such state

immediately. Just like to remove a thorn one has to use another thorn and when

the thorn is removed, we throw away both the thorns. Just like to climb up we

use staircases but once we reach top, we forget all about staircases. Just like

to cross a river, we use a boat but once reached the other side, we do not carry

the boat with us. Similarly, in the beginning stages of spiritual practices, we

try to kill our so called bad or harming desires with the favorable desires that

help us progress but once we attain the state where it becomes part of our

nature we no longer need to make any efforts. To do or not to do type desires

drops off, actions are all

natural done by our higher self without any expectations. There are no efforts

involved from us. Please contemplate on BG 18:66 - Sarvadharmaan parityajya...

Hope this helps...

humble regards,

always at Thy Lotus Feet

Manjula Patel

----------

Dear Sadhakas, Namste!

All answers given on this are very revealing and full of wisdom. We need to

contemplate on all such answers until they resonate in us, become us!

I would build upon them as follows:

As Krishna says, four types of desires are to be pursued, Artha for livelihood

to survive in the sansara, by means available within

Dharma-righteousness, fulfilling Kama the natural desires again guided by

Dharma, and finally all such desires directed to Moksha, liberation. So they are

all Impersonal desires for seeking Truth, not personal ego driven desires which

originate from our lack or Apurnata, the result of identification with body,

mind, intellect, religion, nationality etc etc. Only the personal desires need

to be killed; killed in the sense they have to be understood as coming from

Ego, so cannot be in line with Dharma, or Moksha! They

get dropped by such deep understanding, not by doing

of a doer!

Namaskar!........Pratap Bhatt lovingly

----------------------------

dear all,

desire even if fulfilled only fuels more desire....

friendly regards

s.seshadri

Dear Co-devotee, You yourself have provided the answer by saying that desires

are of 4 types, the last being for Moksha. So the desire to have no desires or

kill all desires will fall under that category and hence should not cause any

concern.

G.Vaidyanathan

-----------

Dear Friends

An important message is contained in verse 21 of 16th Chapter

as under:-

Desires ( lust, passion), anger, and greed are the three main gates

to the hell because they destroy the soul and as such should be

given up.

Desires, anger and greed creates hell in this life and whenever

anyone of the above is active in our life we feel suffering of

hell. Whenever anyone of the above takes possession of us, we are

not in a position to think clearly.

Understanding of the presence of kama, krodh and lobh in our life

and the supportive structure built for their nourishment will enable

us to start process of giving up the same.

Desires –basic question to be asked is `what do we want and why do

we want'. One has to observe and find out what desires creates hell

and what desires create heaven.

Regards,

A K Jain

---------

FROM GITA TALK MODERATORS

please be BRIEF, RELEVANT, AND RESPECTFUL. Ram Ram

------------------

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Un: -

To receive daily sadhak messages -

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March 5, 2010

Hari OmI would like to congratulate all those concerned with this platform for doing agreat job of propogating our ancient wisdom and providing food for spiritualthoughtMy question is -Is MUMUKSHATVAM (Goal of Liberation, Salvation, Moksha) a desire andis it a selfish pursuit?Vineeta Malpani--------------

NEW POSTING

Shree Paramatmane Namh

What is Liberation? We are already inseparable from Paramatma from the very beginning. "Attraction towards the perishable is a desire and attraction towards the imperishable is an essential need (avashyakta). (Manavmaatre Kalyan ke liye pg 161).

so be it.

Vineet Sarvottam

------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Swamiji response at one time was -

Our attitude must be one of only the "avashyakta" essentials (those things needed for sustainance of life - food, water, clothing, shelter etc.); not one of desires or wants. God (Self) is an essential need (avashyakta). All you need is the essential. The essentials can be fulfilled (satisfied), but desire can never be satisfied. God (Self) Realization, Liberation, Salvation, Moksha these are not desires , they are essential needs "avashyakta," that can be fulfilled.

Meera Das, Ram Ram

------------------------

The desire for liberation is pursued as desire (sense of lack).

When the understanding takes root, the sense of lack is no longer there.

The awareness of the bondage is the end of bondage.

One operates from sufficiency to sufficiency.

Y V Chawla

--------------

You are absolutely right. Mumukshatvam / Liberation/ Salvation/ Moksha/Merging with God all are desries for selfish pursuit. But most Sadhaks mightobject to the use of the term desire and selfishness with these greatobjectives. Words have different connotations have people do not like allthese connotations. That Salvation is a desire and a selfish desire does notin any way create problem for the real sadhak. All desires are desires andall desires are looking forward to self satisfaction from the fulfillment ofdesire. But there is a difference. The path to liberation and the attainmentof liberation is of a different class than all other desires/ objectives ofhuman beings. When one is on the path of liberation, any other desire is aconstraint. All other desires are for sensual pleasures. Striving forliberation calls for giving up all sensual desires. All other desires whenfulfilled satisfies ego. When liberation takes place ego vanishes. The pathto liberation is to shed ego and submit to God almighty.Desire for Salvation requires giving up all other desires. Those who haveone or more sensual desires may also have desire for getting God's power tosome extent atleast in order to be able to satisfy some other sensualdesires. All other desires are driven by ego: desire for salvation requiresdriving out ego. When one is trying to drive out ego, he is beinganti-Selfish.The desire for Salvation is calling one to give up self-interest or selfsatisfaction. Even when someone is worshipping God, or giving alms to thepoor or helping the weak or tryinng to be perfect in his work, he might bedoing this to satisfy his ego and enjoy the sensual pride of being a greatman or a pious man or a famous man or a man accumulating Punnya. But thisis not the desire for Salvation or liberation or achieving God. Only whensomeone is worshipping God, or giving alms to the poor or helping the weakor tryinng to be perfect in his work only for the sake of trying toconcentrate on the thought of God, as actions to live a life of equanimity,as step to give up all desires, is he treading the path to fulfill thedesire for Salvation.

We know the essential difference between the ego and sensual desire killingobjective of Salvation and all sense- gratifying, ego-bolstering objectives.It does not really matter whether you call the objective of Salvation (inthe sense that it has been defined in Gita) as a selfish pursuit of desire.Words can confuse. If you know the difference, you are fortunate. Gita saysthose who travel the path of Salvation is rare: those who attain salvationis even much more rare. Rarity does not signify common selfish desire as weusually understand.Basudeb Sen---------------------

Although on surface, it appears to be better goal than Worldly pursuits, or "other worldly" goals, ultimately if it is a "search", it becomes a "goal" to attain, and therefore considered "evanescent and temporary". If you "practice" Shama, Dama, Vairagya etc for a while ( perhaps a long while ), and it becomes a second nature of yours, it is claimed that you attain Moksha automatically. It depends on one's definition and understanding of this state. If the positives and negatives of life do not "affect" you, and you do act "dispassionately" to all or most issues that affect us, and do the most appripriate thing for friend and foe, you have already reached that State and there is no further search.Then it does not matter, in our "bubble" analogy, if there is another bubble or not !!!

D. Mankikar

------------------------------The three basic essentials for Salvation / Liberation / Benediction:1) Maanushatuvam, (Human birth)2) Mumukshathuvam (Desire for Liberation, Salvation, Moksha, to be released fromworldly bondage)and3) Maha Purusha Samshrayaha (Association of Great Souls)---Dullabam Triyo. (rare three)It is an essential need, not a desire, just like basic food for sustainance ofthis body is an essential need, whereas, "rasgulla" (indian sweet) is adesire..(moderators addition)Jai Sri KrishnaBaiya Sathyanarayan----------------POSTED FROM A PREVIOUS TOPICIn your recent Sadhak message on DESIRES it was shared that Desires of fourtypes - - Artha (Wealth); Dharma (Righteousness), "Kaama" (Passion) And Moksha(Salvation).... and about Gita says "Desires are insatiable" and He asks Arjunato kill this enemy i.e. Desire (Gita 3: 37-43). My question is - Isn't a thoughtnot to have desires or to kill desires it self also a desire? So how do youexplain this desire? Please clarify. Thank you. sukanya chhabra------------------Loving Divine, Pranam.All desires - good or bad, to do or not to do, have to go eventually. The desireis a desire and it is binding, however, one can not attain such stateimmediately. Just like to remove a thorn one has to use another thorn and whenthe thorn is removed, we throw away both the thorns. Just like to climb up weuse staircases but once we reach top, we forget all about staircases. Just liketo cross a river, we use a boat but once reached the other side, we do not carrythe boat with us. Similarly, in the beginning stages of spiritual practices, wetry to kill our so called bad or harming desires with the favorable desires thathelp us progress but once we attain the state where it becomes part of ournature we no longer need to make any efforts. To do or not to do type desiresdrops off, actions are allnatural done by our higher self without any expectations. There are no effortsinvolved from us. Please contemplate on BG 18:66 - Sarvadharmaan parityajya... Hope this helps...humble regards,always at Thy Lotus FeetManjula Patel----------Dear Sadhakas, Namste!All answers given on this are very revealing and full of wisdom. We need tocontemplate on all such answers until they resonate in us, become us!I would build upon them as follows:As Krishna says, four types of desires are to be pursued, Artha for livelihoodto survive in the sansara, by means available withinDharma-righteousness, fulfilling Kama the natural desires again guided byDharma, and finally all such desires directed to Moksha, liberation. So they areall Impersonal desires for seeking Truth, not personal ego driven desires whichoriginate from our lack or Apurnata, the result of identification with body,mind, intellect, religion, nationality etc etc. Only the personal desires needto be killed; killed in the sense they have to be understood as coming fromEgo, so cannot be in line with Dharma, or Moksha! Theyget dropped by such deep understanding, not by doingof a doer!Namaskar!........Pratap Bhatt lovingly----------------------------dear all,desire even if fulfilled only fuels more desire....friendly regardss.seshadri

------------------------------Dear Co-devotee, You yourself have provided the answer by saying that desiresare of 4 types, the last being for Moksha. So the desire to have no desires orkill all desires will fall under that category and hence should not cause anyconcern.G.Vaidyanathan-----------Dear FriendsAn important message is contained in verse 21 of 16th Chapteras under:-Desires ( lust, passion), anger, and greed are the three main gatesto the hell because they destroy the soul and as such should begiven up.Desires, anger and greed creates hell in this life and wheneveranyone of the above is active in our life we feel suffering ofhell. Whenever anyone of the above takes possession of us, we arenot in a position to think clearly.Understanding of the presence of kama, krodh and lobh in our lifeand the supportive structure built for their nourishment will enableus to start process of giving up the same.Desires –basic question to be asked is `what do we want and why dowe want'. One has to observe and find out what desires creates helland what desires create heaven.Regards,A K Jain---------FROM GITA TALK MODERATORSplease be BRIEF, RELEVANT, AND RESPECTFUL. Ram Ram------------------Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - To receive daily sadhak messages -Subscribe: sadhaka-

March 6, 2010

Hari OmI would like to congratulate all those concerned with this platform for doing agreat job of propogating our ancient wisdom and providing food for spiritualthoughtMy question is -Is MUMUKSHATVAM (Goal of Liberation, Salvation, Moksha) a desire andis it a selfish pursuit?Vineeta Malpani--------------

NEW POSTING

Dear Ones, Namaste!Please see the Truth in the following by examining your experience in following scenarios!Desires other than TRUTH or Liberation comes from the LACK or insufficiency trying to fulfill through outside objects. Such objects being limited themselves cannot remove lack, but keep mind outward in the loop and in the hope.Desires for liberation comes directly from Truth as only Truth liberates! Upon hearing the words of wisdom from the lips of one's Guru, mind turns inwards and finds its source and loses its identity! No more lack, no more desires!When you think of God, it is God who thinks of you as Himself, when you think of Truth its Truth that thinks of itself, when you think of Guru, it is really Guru as his/her qualities fills your mind and removes lack!Namaskar.....Pratap Bhatt---------

It is a divine pursuit.... Purpose of our life is to be truely selfish....

otherwise, we just keep looking outside and have desires accordingly....

Selfish word is not applicable to the desire for inward journey, to know oneself....

For being truely selfish a desire for liberation/moksha is necessary.....

however after making progress, towards the end, this desire too has to go....

that is said to be the process of liberation...

It is a wonderful game of life....play it by clear understanding.... keep no doubts....

End result should be joy, bliss,.....

Sushil Jain

----------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

As such a man has to do nothing for himself. Just like Bhagavan says in the Gita 3/22, there is nothing in the three worlds that is for Him to do, yet He engages in action. (Gita 3/22).

All men, beasts, and birds etc., perform actions, in order to attain something or the other. But Bhagavan mentions here, an uncommon fact, that He also performs action, though there is nothing which should be done or attained by Him.

Though God has nothing to do for Himself, yet He incarnates for the

welfare of others and performs action for the protection of the

good, for the destruction of the wicked and for the establishment of

righteousness (Gita 4/8). .....

Human life has been created so that a human being can transcend good and evil and attain liberation, salvation, God-realization. However, this is possible only when man does nothing for himself. All his activities—actions should be for the welfare of the world only. Now how can there be any sentiments of selfishness in liberation? How can it ever be considered a selfish desire? Meera Das, Ram Ram ------------------

Shree Paramatmane Namh

What is Liberation? We are already inseparable from Paramatma from the very beginning. "Attraction towards the perishable is a desire and attraction towards the imperishable is an essential need (avashyakta). (Manavmaatre Kalyan ke liye pg 161).

so be it.

Vineet Sarvottam

------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Swamiji response at one time was -

Our attitude must be one of only the "avashyakta" essentials (those things needed for sustainance of life - food, water, clothing, shelter etc.); not one of desires or wants. God (Self) is an essential need (avashyakta). All you need is the essential. The essentials can be fulfilled (satisfied), but desire can never be satisfied. God (Self) Realization, Liberation, Salvation, Moksha these are not desires , they are essential needs "avashyakta," that can be fulfilled.

Meera Das, Ram Ram

------------------------

The desire for liberation is pursued as desire (sense of lack).

When the understanding takes root, the sense of lack is no longer there.

The awareness of the bondage is the end of bondage.

One operates from sufficiency to sufficiency.

Y V Chawla

--------------

You are absolutely right. Mumukshatvam / Liberation/ Salvation/ Moksha/Merging with God all are desries for selfish pursuit. But most Sadhaks mightobject to the use of the term desire and selfishness with these greatobjectives. Words have different connotations have people do not like allthese connotations. That Salvation is a desire and a selfish desire does notin any way create problem for the real sadhak. All desires are desires andall desires are looking forward to self satisfaction from the fulfillment ofdesire. But there is a difference. The path to liberation and the attainmentof liberation is of a different class than all other desires/ objectives ofhuman beings. When one is on the path of liberation, any other desire is aconstraint. All other desires are for sensual pleasures. Striving forliberation calls for giving up all sensual desires. All other desires whenfulfilled satisfies ego. When liberation takes place ego vanishes. The pathto liberation is to shed ego and submit to God almighty.Desire for Salvation requires giving up all other desires. Those who haveone or more sensual desires may also have desire for getting God's power tosome extent atleast in order to be able to satisfy some other sensualdesires. All other desires are driven by ego: desire for salvation requiresdriving out ego. When one is trying to drive out ego, he is beinganti-Selfish.The desire for Salvation is calling one to give up self-interest or selfsatisfaction. Even when someone is worshipping God, or giving alms to thepoor or helping the weak or tryinng to be perfect in his work, he might bedoing this to satisfy his ego and enjoy the sensual pride of being a greatman or a pious man or a famous man or a man accumulating Punnya. But thisis not the desire for Salvation or liberation or achieving God. Only whensomeone is worshipping God, or giving alms to the poor or helping the weakor tryinng to be perfect in his work only for the sake of trying toconcentrate on the thought of God, as actions to live a life of equanimity,as step to give up all desires, is he treading the path to fulfill thedesire for Salvation.

We know the essential difference between the ego and sensual desire killingobjective of Salvation and all sense- gratifying, ego-bolstering objectives.It does not really matter whether you call the objective of Salvation (inthe sense that it has been defined in Gita) as a selfish pursuit of desire.Words can confuse. If you know the difference, you are fortunate. Gita saysthose who travel the path of Salvation is rare: those who attain salvationis even much more rare. Rarity does not signify common selfish desire as weusually understand.Basudeb Sen---------------------

Although on surface, it appears to be better goal than Worldly pursuits, or "other worldly" goals, ultimately if it is a "search", it becomes a "goal" to attain, and therefore considered "evanescent and temporary". If you "practice" Shama, Dama, Vairagya etc for a while ( perhaps a long while ), and it becomes a second nature of yours, it is claimed that you attain Moksha automatically. It depends on one's definition and understanding of this state. If the positives and negatives of life do not "affect" you, and you do act "dispassionately" to all or most issues that affect us, and do the most appripriate thing for friend and foe, you have already reached that State and there is no further search.Then it does not matter, in our "bubble" analogy, if there is another bubble or not !!!

D. Mankikar

------------------------------The three basic essentials for Salvation / Liberation / Benediction:1) Maanushatuvam, (Human birth)2) Mumukshathuvam (Desire for Liberation, Salvation, Moksha, to be released fromworldly bondage)and3) Maha Purusha Samshrayaha (Association of Great Souls)---Dullabam Triyo. (rare three)It is an essential need, not a desire, just like basic food for sustainance ofthis body is an essential need, whereas, "rasgulla" (indian sweet) is adesire..(moderators addition)Jai Sri KrishnaBaiya Sathyanarayan----------------POSTED FROM A PREVIOUS TOPICIn your recent Sadhak message on DESIRES it was shared that Desires of fourtypes - - Artha (Wealth); Dharma (Righteousness), "Kaama" (Passion) And Moksha(Salvation).... and about Gita says "Desires are insatiable" and He asks Arjunato kill this enemy i.e. Desire (Gita 3: 37-43). My question is - Isn't a thoughtnot to have desires or to kill desires it self also a desire? So how do youexplain this desire? Please clarify. Thank you. sukanya chhabra------------------Loving Divine, Pranam.All desires - good or bad, to do or not to do, have to go eventually. The desireis a desire and it is binding, however, one can not attain such stateimmediately. Just like to remove a thorn one has to use another thorn and whenthe thorn is removed, we throw away both the thorns. Just like to climb up weuse staircases but once we reach top, we forget all about staircases. Just liketo cross a river, we use a boat but once reached the other side, we do not carrythe boat with us. Similarly, in the beginning stages of spiritual practices, wetry to kill our so called bad or harming desires with the favorable desires thathelp us progress but once we attain the state where it becomes part of ournature we no longer need to make any efforts. To do or not to do type desiresdrops off, actions are allnatural done by our higher self without any expectations. There are no effortsinvolved from us. Please contemplate on BG 18:66 - Sarvadharmaan parityajya... Hope this helps...humble regards,always at Thy Lotus FeetManjula Patel----------Dear Sadhakas, Namste!All answers given on this are very revealing and full of wisdom. We need tocontemplate on all such answers until they resonate in us, become us!I would build upon them as follows:As Krishna says, four types of desires are to be pursued, Artha for livelihoodto survive in the sansara, by means available withinDharma-righteousness, fulfilling Kama the natural desires again guided byDharma, and finally all such desires directed to Moksha, liberation. So they areall Impersonal desires for seeking Truth, not personal ego driven desires whichoriginate from our lack or Apurnata, the result of identification with body,mind, intellect, religion, nationality etc etc. Only the personal desires needto be killed; killed in the sense they have to be understood as coming fromEgo, so cannot be in line with Dharma, or Moksha! Theyget dropped by such deep understanding, not by doingof a doer!Namaskar!........Pratap Bhatt lovingly----------------------------dear all,desire even if fulfilled only fuels more desire....friendly regardss.seshadri

------------------------------Dear Co-devotee, You yourself have provided the answer by saying that desiresare of 4 types, the last being for Moksha. So the desire to have no desires orkill all desires will fall under that category and hence should not cause anyconcern.G.Vaidyanathan-----------Dear FriendsAn important message is contained in verse 21 of 16th Chapteras under:-Desires ( lust, passion), anger, and greed are the three main gatesto the hell because they destroy the soul and as such should begiven up.Desires, anger and greed creates hell in this life and wheneveranyone of the above is active in our life we feel suffering ofhell. Whenever anyone of the above takes possession of us, we arenot in a position to think clearly.Understanding of the presence of kama, krodh and lobh in our lifeand the supportive structure built for their nourishment will enableus to start process of giving up the same.Desires –basic question to be asked is `what do we want and why dowe want'. One has to observe and find out what desires creates helland what desires create heaven.Regards,A K Jain---------FROM GITA TALK MODERATORSplease be BRIEF, RELEVANT, AND RESPECTFUL. Ram Ram------------------Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - To receive daily sadhak messages -Subscribe: sadhaka-

March 8, 2010

Hari OmI would like to congratulate all those concerned with this platform for doing agreat job of propogating our ancient wisdom and providing food for spiritualthoughtMy question is -Is MUMUKSHATVAM (Goal of Liberation, Salvation, Moksha) a desire andis it a selfish pursuit?Vineeta Malpani--------------

NEW POSTING

Dear spiritual brother,

MUMUKSHATVAM is neither a desire nor selfish or slefless pursuit. One reaches this stage by strictly following Rta (Vedic cosmic laws of necessity) and fulfilling the purpose of human birth. Vedas explain in detail the purpose of human birth i.e to assist Brahman (supreme Reality) in the maintenance of Thy Grand Wondrous Design and following the path of social welfare.

According to Rig Veda one can attain this stage of Moksha in one birth and if one does not attain the person is the greatest loser.

Regards,

Prem Sabhlok

-------

As one of our friends told,I think the first step in divine pursuit is to practise manushatvam ie to behave fully as true human beingbecause humanity (manliness) will definitely take us to godliness.

Badri Narayana Miriyala

------------------------

Dear Ones, Namaste!Please see the Truth in the following by examining your experience in following scenarios!Desires other than TRUTH or Liberation comes from the LACK or insufficiency trying to fulfill through outside objects. Such objects being limited themselves cannot remove lack, but keep mind outward in the loop and in the hope.Desires for liberation comes directly from Truth as only Truth liberates! Upon hearing the words of wisdom from the lips of one's Guru, mind turns inwards and finds its source and loses its identity! No more lack, no more desires!When you think of God, it is God who thinks of you as Himself, when you think of Truth its Truth that thinks of itself, when you think of Guru, it is really Guru as his/her qualities fills your mind and removes lack!Namaskar.....Pratap Bhatt---------

It is a divine pursuit.... Purpose of our life is to be truely selfish.... otherwise, we just keep looking outside and have desires accordingly.... Selfish word is not applicable to the desire for inward journey, to know oneself.... For being truely selfish a desire for liberation/moksha is necessary..... however after making progress, towards the end, this desire too has to go.... that is said to be the process of liberation... It is a wonderful game of life....play it by clear understanding.... keep no doubts.... End result should be joy, bliss,..... Sushil Jain

----------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram As such a man has to do nothing for himself. Just like Bhagavan says in the Gita 3/22, there is nothing in the three worlds that is for Him to do, yet He engages in action. (Gita 3/22). All men, beasts, and birds etc., perform actions, in order to attain something or the other. But Bhagavan mentions here, an uncommon fact, that He also performs action, though there is nothing which should be done or attained by Him.

Though God has nothing to do for Himself, yet He incarnates for the welfare of others and performs action for the protection of the good, for the destruction of the wicked and for the establishment of righteousness (Gita 4/8). ..... Human life has been created so that a human being can transcend good and evil and attain liberation, salvation, God-realization. However, this is possible only when man does nothing for himself. All his activities—actions should be for the welfare of the world only. Now how can there be any sentiments of selfishness in liberation? How can it ever be considered a selfish desire? Meera Das, Ram Ram ------------------

Shree Paramatmane Namh

What is Liberation? We are already inseparable from Paramatma from the very beginning. "Attraction towards the perishable is a desire and attraction towards the imperishable is an essential need (avashyakta). (Manavmaatre Kalyan ke liye pg 161).

so be it.

Vineet Sarvottam

------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Swamiji response at one time was -

Our attitude must be one of only the "avashyakta" essentials (those things needed for sustainance of life - food, water, clothing, shelter etc.); not one of desires or wants. God (Self) is an essential need (avashyakta). All you need is the essential. The essentials can be fulfilled (satisfied), but desire can never be satisfied. God (Self) Realization, Liberation, Salvation, Moksha these are not desires , they are essential needs "avashyakta," that can be fulfilled.

Meera Das, Ram Ram

------------------------

The desire for liberation is pursued as desire (sense of lack).

When the understanding takes root, the sense of lack is no longer there.

The awareness of the bondage is the end of bondage.

One operates from sufficiency to sufficiency.

Y V Chawla

--------------

You are absolutely right. Mumukshatvam / Liberation/ Salvation/ Moksha/Merging with God all are desries for selfish pursuit. But most Sadhaks mightobject to the use of the term desire and selfishness with these greatobjectives. Words have different connotations have people do not like allthese connotations. That Salvation is a desire and a selfish desire does notin any way create problem for the real sadhak. All desires are desires andall desires are looking forward to self satisfaction from the fulfillment ofdesire. But there is a difference. The path to liberation and the attainmentof liberation is of a different class than all other desires/ objectives ofhuman beings. When one is on the path of liberation, any other desire is aconstraint. All other desires are for sensual pleasures. Striving forliberation calls for giving up all sensual desires. All other desires whenfulfilled satisfies ego. When liberation takes place ego vanishes. The pathto liberation is to shed ego and submit to God almighty.Desire for Salvation requires giving up all other desires. Those who haveone or more sensual desires may also have desire for getting God's power tosome extent atleast in order to be able to satisfy some other sensualdesires. All other desires are driven by ego: desire for salvation requiresdriving out ego. When one is trying to drive out ego, he is beinganti-Selfish.The desire for Salvation is calling one to give up self-interest or selfsatisfaction. Even when someone is worshipping God, or giving alms to thepoor or helping the weak or tryinng to be perfect in his work, he might bedoing this to satisfy his ego and enjoy the sensual pride of being a greatman or a pious man or a famous man or a man accumulating Punnya. But thisis not the desire for Salvation or liberation or achieving God. Only whensomeone is worshipping God, or giving alms to the poor or helping the weakor tryinng to be perfect in his work only for the sake of trying toconcentrate on the thought of God, as actions to live a life of equanimity,as step to give up all desires, is he treading the path to fulfill thedesire for Salvation.

We know the essential difference between the ego and sensual desire killingobjective of Salvation and all sense- gratifying, ego-bolstering objectives.It does not really matter whether you call the objective of Salvation (inthe sense that it has been defined in Gita) as a selfish pursuit of desire.Words can confuse. If you know the difference, you are fortunate. Gita saysthose who travel the path of Salvation is rare: those who attain salvationis even much more rare. Rarity does not signify common selfish desire as weusually understand.Basudeb Sen---------------------

Although on surface, it appears to be better goal than Worldly pursuits, or "other worldly" goals, ultimately if it is a "search", it becomes a "goal" to attain, and therefore considered "evanescent and temporary". If you "practice" Shama, Dama, Vairagya etc for a while ( perhaps a long while ), and it becomes a second nature of yours, it is claimed that you attain Moksha automatically. It depends on one's definition and understanding of this state. If the positives and negatives of life do not "affect" you, and you do act "dispassionately" to all or most issues that affect us, and do the most appripriate thing for friend and foe, you have already reached that State and there is no further search.Then it does not matter, in our "bubble" analogy, if there is another bubble or not !!!

D. Mankikar

------------------------------The three basic essentials for Salvation / Liberation / Benediction:1) Maanushatuvam, (Human birth)2) Mumukshathuvam (Desire for Liberation, Salvation, Moksha, to be released fromworldly bondage)and3) Maha Purusha Samshrayaha (Association of Great Souls)---Dullabam Triyo. (rare three)It is an essential need, not a desire, just like basic food for sustainance ofthis body is an essential need, whereas, "rasgulla" (indian sweet) is adesire..(moderators addition)Jai Sri KrishnaBaiya Sathyanarayan----------------POSTED FROM A PREVIOUS TOPICIn your recent Sadhak message on DESIRES it was shared that Desires of fourtypes - - Artha (Wealth); Dharma (Righteousness), "Kaama" (Passion) And Moksha(Salvation).... and about Gita says "Desires are insatiable" and He asks Arjunato kill this enemy i.e. Desire (Gita 3: 37-43). My question is - Isn't a thoughtnot to have desires or to kill desires it self also a desire? So how do youexplain this desire? Please clarify. Thank you. sukanya chhabra------------------Loving Divine, Pranam.All desires - good or bad, to do or not to do, have to go eventually. The desireis a desire and it is binding, however, one can not attain such stateimmediately. Just like to remove a thorn one has to use another thorn and whenthe thorn is removed, we throw away both the thorns. Just like to climb up weuse staircases but once we reach top, we forget all about staircases. Just liketo cross a river, we use a boat but once reached the other side, we do not carrythe boat with us. Similarly, in the beginning stages of spiritual practices, wetry to kill our so called bad or harming desires with the favorable desires thathelp us progress but once we attain the state where it becomes part of ournature we no longer need to make any efforts. To do or not to do type desiresdrops off, actions are allnatural done by our higher self without any expectations. There are no effortsinvolved from us. Please contemplate on BG 18:66 - Sarvadharmaan parityajya... Hope this helps...humble regards,always at Thy Lotus FeetManjula Patel----------Dear Sadhakas, Namste!All answers given on this are very revealing and full of wisdom. We need tocontemplate on all such answers until they resonate in us, become us!I would build upon them as follows:As Krishna says, four types of desires are to be pursued, Artha for livelihoodto survive in the sansara, by means available withinDharma-righteousness, fulfilling Kama the natural desires again guided byDharma, and finally all such desires directed to Moksha, liberation. So they areall Impersonal desires for seeking Truth, not personal ego driven desires whichoriginate from our lack or Apurnata, the result of identification with body,mind, intellect, religion, nationality etc etc. Only the personal desires needto be killed; killed in the sense they have to be understood as coming fromEgo, so cannot be in line with Dharma, or Moksha! Theyget dropped by such deep understanding, not by doingof a doer!Namaskar!........Pratap Bhatt lovingly----------------------------dear all,desire even if fulfilled only fuels more desire....friendly regardss.seshadri

------------------------------Dear Co-devotee, You yourself have provided the answer by saying that desiresare of 4 types, the last being for Moksha. So the desire to have no desires orkill all desires will fall under that category and hence should not cause anyconcern.G.Vaidyanathan-----------Dear FriendsAn important message is contained in verse 21 of 16th Chapteras under:-Desires ( lust, passion), anger, and greed are the three main gatesto the hell because they destroy the soul and as such should begiven up.Desires, anger and greed creates hell in this life and wheneveranyone of the above is active in our life we feel suffering ofhell. Whenever anyone of the above takes possession of us, we arenot in a position to think clearly.Understanding of the presence of kama, krodh and lobh in our lifeand the supportive structure built for their nourishment will enableus to start process of giving up the same.Desires –basic question to be asked is `what do we want and why dowe want'. One has to observe and find out what desires creates helland what desires create heaven.Regards,A K Jain---------FROM GITA TALK MODERATORSplease be BRIEF, RELEVANT, AND RESPECTFUL. Ram Ram------------------Subscribe: - Unsubscribe: - To receive daily sadhak messages -Subscribe: sadhaka-