The Senses are the Doers - Please Express Your Insights based on Gita

[Guest guest]

Shree Hari,IN ENGLISHBhagwaan has in the Gita 18/15-17 given 5 causes for actions (karma), and Bhagwaan has said not to consider the pure aatma (Self) as the doer, and to consider the five senses (causes) as the doer of actions, then one will not be attached to the karmas "actions" and will not get bound by them. I would like to get your views on this topic. Kalpna Dixit IN HINDIBhagwaan ne gita me 18/15 to17 mekarmo ke 5 hetu bataye hai or bhagwaan ne kahaa

hai ki shudh aatma ko karta na maan kar in 5 hetu ko karmo ka karan maante hai

to hum karmo me aasakt nahi hote or bandhan me nahi bandhte ,

mai aap se is topic par aapke views jaanna chaahti hoo Shree Hari, Kalpna Dixit=========================================please review few prior discussions at: Then who is the doer? Please help clarify -/message/3357Becoming Free from Karma Bondage - Actions, Impressions, Doership, Enjoyership/message/2187Peace and it's Attainment through Non-Doing / Non-Doership - Clarification ?/message/2918 -------------------------Shree Hari Ram Ram Please be Brief, Relavant and Respectful. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram ----- Post message: Subscribe:- Un:-

[Guest guest]

Shree Hari,IN ENGLISHBhagwaan has in the Gita 18/15-17 given 5 causes for actions (karma), and Bhagwaan has said not to consider the pure aatma (Self) as the doer, and to consider the five senses (causes) as the doer of actions, then one will not be attached to the karmas "actions" and will not get bound by them. I would like to get your views on this topic. Kalpna Dixit IN HINDIBhagwaan ne gita me 18/15 to17 mekarmo ke 5 hetu bataye hai or bhagwaan ne kahaa

hai ki shudh aatma ko karta na maan kar in 5 hetu ko karmo ka karan maante hai

to hum karmo me aasakt nahi hote or bandhan me nahi bandhte ,

mai aap se is topic par aapke views jaanna chaahti hoo Shree Hari, Kalpna Dixit=========================================Please review few prior discussions at: Then who is the doer? Please help clarify -/message/3357Becoming Free from Karma Bondage - Actions, Impressions, Doership, Enjoyership/message/2187Peace and it's Attainment through Non-Doing / Non-Doership - Clarification ?/message/2918 ------------------------- NEW POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram The following Gita Verses talk about : DOER (Kartaa) - Gita 3/24, 3/37, 18/14, 18/18, 18/19, 18/26, Gita 18/27, 18/28 Doership (Kartutvam) - Gita 5/14 Doing (Karoti) - Gita 4/20, 5/10, 6/1, 13/31 Sadhaks please refer to these verses an help clarify all doubts. Please be VERY BRIEF, RELEVANT, and RESPECTFUL. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram ---------------------------- God has given such a simple to understand Truth. Every thing has a cause or source. All actions have causes. Planets move around because of the properties/ gunas inherent the, Each man does what the guna properties make the man do using the senses. Thus, unless one define man as the conglomeration of senses, Man himself does not act. Only the guna induced sense of ego percieves that it does. But unless man is defined as ego, man does not act. Then what is man? Man is the Self that is always in the realized state on oneness with God and the entire creation. By definition Self does not act. It knows that actions are results of gunas, senses and ego.I have not found any argument that scientifically refutes the above logic preached by God in Gita. Basudeb Sen---Ram RamHave not studied the Gita – but in my Humble Understanding –the senses can never be the doers – they are mere instruments with no independence – How can they ever be the Doers – and the Gita being God's Song – can never say anything that is even slightly incorrect.Ramkrishna Ram Ram------------------Post message: Subscribe:- Un:-

[Guest guest]

Shree Hari,IN ENGLISHBhagwaan has in the Gita 18/15-17 given 5 causes for actions (karma), and Bhagwaan has said not to consider the pure aatma (Self) as the doer, and to consider the five senses (causes) as the doer of actions, then one will not be attached to the karmas "actions" and will not get bound by them. I would like to get your views on this topic. Kalpna Dixit IN HINDIBhagwaan ne gita me 18/15 to17 mekarmo ke 5 hetu bataye hai or bhagwaan ne kahaa

hai ki shudh aatma ko karta na maan kar in 5 hetu ko karmo ka karan maante hai

to hum karmo me aasakt nahi hote or bandhan me nahi bandhte ,

mai aap se is topic par aapke views jaanna chaahti hoo Shree Hari, Kalpna Dixit=========================================Shree Hari Ram Ram The following Gita Verses talk about : DOER (Kartaa) - Gita 3/24, 3/37, 18/14, 18/18, 18/19, 18/26, Gita 18/27, 18/28 Doership (Kartutvam) - Gita 5/14 Doing (Karoti) - Gita 4/20, 5/10, 6/1, 13/31 Sadhaks please refer to these verses an help clarify all doubts. Please be VERY BRIEF, RELEVANT, and RESPECTFUL. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram ----------------------------Please review few prior discussions at: Then who is the doer? Please help clarify -/message/3357Becoming Free from Karma Bondage - Actions, Impressions, Doership, Enjoyership/message/2187Peace and it's Attainment through Non-Doing / Non-Doership - Clarification ?/message/2918 ------------------------- NEW POSTING Dear Sadaks,Arjuna first thought that he is going to wage war. Then the doer ship was clearly explained by Bagavan. Then the doer ship was understood and Arjuna enlightened, waged war to maintain Dharma at large. Here what Arjuna thought first was that the purpose of War was for kingdom. Then he got enlightened that the war was not for kingdom. So it means that what ever done for gains the doer ship gets attached. The same done for Samasta Loka Sukino Bavanthu, there is NO doer ship. So it is only knowledge that eliminates doer ship to oneself. The agnan (Ignorance) attaches doer ship to one selfIf one thinks he is educating his child, then doer ship attaches, causing pain if the child fails or causes happiness and pride if the child ranks well. here the pain and happiness are due to ignorance.B.Sathyanarayan. -------------------------Hari OmYes ! All actions happen in the regime of Prakruti (Apara Prakruti) ! In Purusha there is not any action. But when any sin or virtue takes places, Self (Jeevatma/ Purusha/ Para Prakruti) experiences the results thereof. Yes ! It is the car which runs. The Driver does not run. But when any accident takes place, car is not punished, the Driver is punished.Kalpanaji ! 5 causes referred by you are in BG 18:14 not in 18:15 to 17. One of the 'cause' is 'Karta' (Doer) ! Jeeva becomes that 'karta' by 'acceptance' and hence suffers punishment. When 'Karta' viz Jeeva renounces the wrong 'acceptance' and admits 'I am not Karta'- he ceases to be 'Karta' and ceases to be sinful (18:17). It is all "accepted doership" not "actual doership" !! Actually there no doership in Jeeva. "Actual doership' is only in Prakruti (BG 13:20) !! "Punishable/rewardable/relevant doership" is "assumed doership" not "actual doership" !! Gita saying that Pure soul is not Karta is right. Jeeva is not Karta but 'accepts' to be Karta and thus artificially becomes a Karta. Without an "assumed" Karta an "activity" can place, but not "Karma". Hence there is no inconsistency in Gitaji. Sadhak Ramakrishna is right. Gitaji is right. Sadhak Basudeb Sen is also very right in his message. In fact Purusha ( Para Prakruti) who is part of God, forms affinity with Apara Prakruti (inert) ! Not only that, he in affinity with inert also 'creates' an independent entity of him'self' as "Prakrutishtha Purusha" ( BG 13:21- Jeeva ) ... Which creation is called 'Aham' ( ego as stated by Basudebji Sen ) ! In this 'Aham' (Jeeva) , both sentient and inert are there. The modification (vikaar) of happiness/sorrow takes place in inert portion only , but the "effect/result" of the same is on 'knower' sentient portion !!! In other words, sentient (chetan) 'assumes/accepts' that sorrow/happiness modification as taking place in him'self' !! Just as while fever comes in body, we say " I am feverish" ! In fact when you realise that "I am not doer" then you are neither karta nor bhokta. ( BG 13:31) ! Thereafter , whatever "activities" take place in the body of Doershipless/Suffershipless ( Kirtitva/bhktritva rahit) Jeeva are caused by "Aham vritti" (ego) ! The activities done by this "aham" is stated in Gita by various ways. Say in 13:29 by Prakruti; in 3:27 by Gunas of Prakruti; in 3:28 by Gunas interplay with Gunas; in 14:29 by Gunas and in 5:9 by stating senses are consuming in senses. Meaning thereby that whatever activities take place by internal "karanas" and external "karanas" , are all by Prakruti.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B====================================Who are the doers? Senses? Mind? Body? ... IndriyaaNaam hi charataam yanmono'nuvidheeyate |Tadasya harati pragnyaam vaayurnaavmivaambhasi || The mind hymnotized by the sensorial influences and attractions would chaotically wander as per the sensoiral dictates from its environment just like a ship driven by a storm drifting in the ocean aimlessly being perpetually tossed hither-tither by the reckless waves of desires and fears from within. Just like a ship that is sailing steadily in the ocean is positively guided and riven toward its destiny by the favorable winds, the senseful mind and body cluster appreciates the sonsorial reality embedded in its interaction with the world to steer its way in the ocean of the thoughts and actions to attain its destiny cutting across the waves of desires and fears in perfect balance - equanimity and silence. Senses seem to be the doers of everything as far as the body-mind duo dances as per the tunes of the sensorial signals being entangled in its interactions with the world around. Desires and fears seem to be the doers as far as they come out in tides from within throwing an individual into thoughts and actions. IndriyaaNaam prithagbhaavamudayaastamayou cha yat |Prithagutpadyamaanaanaam mattvaa dheero na shochati ||But the sensorial signals are born dead … never exist beyond their very appearance … then how can they be the doers?!Similarly, the desires and fears are rootless on their own perpetually anchoring on each other for their own survival … they die to be born as each other … they take birth to die for each other … they appear and disappear instantaneously and simultaneously ... then how can they be the doers??!!Therefore, the fellow who nurtures them … the desires and fears, toughts and actions, senses, etc. should be the source for these momentary entities … but, the fellow is eternally missing not coming into the purview of any quest from the seekers of the yore ... "who am I" remains unanswered inspite of the quest waged for milleniums ... then, how can that fellow be the doer???!!!Same applies to the objects around (Vishaya) … are they the doers? Their span itself is dependent on the sonsorial life … they cannot survive beyond the senses and hence are as momentary (or more) as the the senses as such … then, how can the objects of the world be the doers????!!!!THE ONE that is the basis for all is PURE and INVARIANT to be the all in this universe … there can be nothing outside THAT to manipulate upon … nothing can be within THAT either to urge for operation … then, how can the changeless do anything … Then, where is a doer? Is there any doing?? Krato smara … kritam smara … … think … is there any doing? Is there any doer?? … think … Respects.Naga Narayana. ----------------------------- God has given such a simple to understand Truth. Every thing has a cause or source. All actions have causes. Planets move around because of the properties/ gunas inherent the, Each man does what the guna properties make the man do using the senses. Thus, unless one define man as the conglomeration of senses, Man himself does not act. Only the guna induced sense of ego percieves that it does. But unless man is defined as ego, man does not act. Then what is man? Man is the Self that is always in the realized state on oneness with God and the entire creation. By definition Self does not act. It knows that actions are results of gunas, senses and ego.I have not found any argument that scientifically refutes the above logic preached by God in Gita. Basudeb Sen---Ram RamHave not studied the Gita – but in my Humble Understanding –the senses can never be the doers – they are mere instruments with no independence – How can they ever be the Doers – and the Gita being God's Song – can never say anything that is even slightly incorrect.Ramkrishna Ram Ram------------------Post message: Subscribe:- Un:-

[Guest guest]

Shree Hari,IN ENGLISHBhagwaan has in the Gita 18/15-17 given 5 causes for actions (karma), and Bhagwaan has said not to consider the pure aatma (Self) as the doer, and to consider the five senses (causes) as the doer of actions, then one will not be attached to the karmas "actions" and will not get bound by them. I would like to get your views on this topic. Kalpna Dixit IN HINDIBhagwaan ne gita me 18/15 to17 mekarmo ke 5 hetu bataye hai or bhagwaan ne kahaa

hai ki shudh aatma ko karta na maan kar in 5 hetu ko karmo ka karan maante hai

to hum karmo me aasakt nahi hote or bandhan me nahi bandhte ,

mai aap se is topic par aapke views jaanna chaahti hoo Shree Hari, Kalpna Dixit=========================================Shree Hari Ram Ram The following Gita Verses talk about : DOER (Kartaa) - Gita 3/24, 3/37, 18/14, 18/18, 18/19, 18/26, Gita 18/27, 18/28 Doership (Kartutvam) - Gita 5/14 Doing (Karoti) - Gita 4/20, 5/10, 6/1, 13/31 Sadhaks please refer to these verses an help clarify all doubts. Please be VERY BRIEF, RELEVANT, and RESPECTFUL. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram ----------------------------Please review few prior discussions at: Then who is the doer? Please help clarify -/message/3357Becoming Free from Karma Bondage - Actions, Impressions, Doership, Enjoyership/message/2187Peace and it's Attainment through Non-Doing / Non-Doership - Clarification ?/message/2918 ------------------------- NEW POSTING What are the senses and how are these originated? When a child is born, the first sense that comes out from within is weeping "Maaaa", the next sense is sucking, the next sense is watching its own hands and feet. Next is listening to others speaking, then to learn how to express by sound. Next comes the tendency of identifying its own people and surrounding environment and then the tendency of getting up. Gradually the space occupied by it gets enlarged. In the process its intectual gets developed and it identifies itself as one of the surrounding environment.From here its ego originates.In the actual sense, we are simple agglomeration of machinaries ( so to say our senses) like the steering, the clutch, the gear, the accelerator, the fuel tank and injecting devices. It has been very correctly said by the poet : "You do your work, peple think I am doing.. You are the driver and I am the carriage..you are the room and I am the occupant". Really speaking what we are, is nothing but the space awarded to us by virtue of our previous achievements "praravdha".Hence, in short it comes to the conclusion that, He is the "Driver" the result of actions are depending on the quality of the machinaries occupying the space which is being driven by Him. Barin Chatterjee --Shree Paramatmane NamahWhat will you do by knowing this? You are neither a doer nor can you become tainted by any action (Gita 13/31) Now if the doer of any action is the sense or not, whether the five senses are the cause of doing of any action, what difference does it make to you? Simply do not accept yourself at the doer. Become Bhagwaan's and remain that way. In this there is great joy. so be it, Vineet Sarvottam ------------------------ Namaste Sadhaks What is your conclusion, Nagaji? It is really very difficult to understand the way you write! Audrey Rodrigues--------------------- Dear Sadaks,Arjuna first thought that he is going to wage war. Then the doer ship was clearly explained by Bagavan. Then the doer ship was understood and Arjuna enlightened, waged war to maintain Dharma at large. Here what Arjuna thought first was that the purpose of War was for kingdom. Then he got enlightened that the war was not for kingdom. So it means that what ever done for gains the doer ship gets attached. The same done for Samasta Loka Sukino Bavanthu, there is NO doer ship. So it is only knowledge that eliminates doer ship to oneself. The agnan (Ignorance) attaches doer ship to one selfIf one thinks he is educating his child, then doer ship attaches, causing pain if the child fails or causes happiness and pride if the child ranks well. here the pain and happiness are due to ignorance.B.Sathyanarayan. -------------------------Hari OmYes ! All actions happen in the regime of Prakruti (Apara Prakruti) ! In Purusha there is not any action. But when any sin or virtue takes places, Self (Jeevatma/ Purusha/ Para Prakruti) experiences the results thereof. Yes ! It is the car which runs. The Driver does not run. But when any accident takes place, car is not punished, the Driver is punished.Kalpanaji ! 5 causes referred by you are in BG 18:14 not in 18:15 to 17. One of the 'cause' is 'Karta' (Doer) ! Jeeva becomes that 'karta' by 'acceptance' and hence suffers punishment. When 'Karta' viz Jeeva renounces the wrong 'acceptance' and admits 'I am not Karta'- he ceases to be 'Karta' and ceases to be sinful (18:17). It is all "accepted doership" not "actual doership" !! Actually there no doership in Jeeva. "Actual doership' is only in Prakruti (BG 13:20) !! "Punishable/rewardable/relevant doership" is "assumed doership" not "actual doership" !! Gita saying that Pure soul is not Karta is right. Jeeva is not Karta but 'accepts' to be Karta and thus artificially becomes a Karta. Without an "assumed" Karta an "activity" can place, but not "Karma". Hence there is no inconsistency in Gitaji. Sadhak Ramakrishna is right. Gitaji is right. Sadhak Basudeb Sen is also very right in his message. In fact Purusha ( Para Prakruti) who is part of God, forms affinity with Apara Prakruti (inert) ! Not only that, he in affinity with inert also 'creates' an independent entity of him'self' as "Prakrutishtha Purusha" ( BG 13:21- Jeeva ) ... Which creation is called 'Aham' ( ego as stated by Basudebji Sen ) ! In this 'Aham' (Jeeva) , both sentient and inert are there. The modification (vikaar) of happiness/sorrow takes place in inert portion only , but the "effect/result" of the same is on 'knower' sentient portion !!! In other words, sentient (chetan) 'assumes/accepts' that sorrow/happiness modification as taking place in him'self' !! Just as while fever comes in body, we say " I am feverish" ! In fact when you realise that "I am not doer" then you are neither karta nor bhokta. ( BG 13:31) ! Thereafter , whatever "activities" take place in the body of Doershipless/Suffershipless ( Kirtitva/bhktritva rahit) Jeeva are caused by "Aham vritti" (ego) ! The activities done by this "aham" is stated in Gita by various ways. Say in 13:29 by Prakruti; in 3:27 by Gunas of Prakruti; in 3:28 by Gunas interplay with Gunas; in 14:29 by Gunas and in 5:9 by stating senses are consuming in senses. Meaning thereby that whatever activities take place by internal "karanas" and external "karanas" , are all by Prakruti.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B====================================Who are the doers? Senses? Mind? Body? ... IndriyaaNaam hi charataam yanmono'nuvidheeyate |Tadasya harati pragnyaam vaayurnaavmivaambhasi || The mind hymnotized by the sensorial influences and attractions would chaotically wander as per the sensoiral dictates from its environment just like a ship driven by a storm drifting in the ocean aimlessly being perpetually tossed hither-tither by the reckless waves of desires and fears from within. Just like a ship that is sailing steadily in the ocean is positively guided and riven toward its destiny by the favorable winds, the senseful mind and body cluster appreciates the sonsorial reality embedded in its interaction with the world to steer its way in the ocean of the thoughts and actions to attain its destiny cutting across the waves of desires and fears in perfect balance - equanimity and silence. Senses seem to be the doers of everything as far as the body-mind duo dances as per the tunes of the sensorial signals being entangled in its interactions with the world around. Desires and fears seem to be the doers as far as they come out in tides from within throwing an individual into thoughts and actions. IndriyaaNaam prithagbhaavamudayaastamayou cha yat |Prithagutpadyamaanaanaam mattvaa dheero na shochati ||But the sensorial signals are born dead … never exist beyond their very appearance … then how can they be the doers?!Similarly, the desires and fears are rootless on their own perpetually anchoring on each other for their own survival … they die to be born as each other … they take birth to die for each other … they appear and disappear instantaneously and simultaneously ... then how can they be the doers??!!Therefore, the fellow who nurtures them … the desires and fears, toughts and actions, senses, etc. should be the source for these momentary entities … but, the fellow is eternally missing not coming into the purview of any quest from the seekers of the yore ... "who am I" remains unanswered inspite of the quest waged for milleniums ... then, how can that fellow be the doer???!!!Same applies to the objects around (Vishaya) … are they the doers? Their span itself is dependent on the sonsorial life … they cannot survive beyond the senses and hence are as momentary (or more) as the the senses as such … then, how can the objects of the world be the doers????!!!!THE ONE that is the basis for all is PURE and INVARIANT to be the all in this universe … there can be nothing outside THAT to manipulate upon … nothing can be within THAT either to urge for operation … then, how can the changeless do anything … Then, where is a doer? Is there any doing?? Krato smara … kritam smara … … think … is there any doing? Is there any doer?? … think … Respects.Naga Narayana. ----------------------------- God has given such a simple to understand Truth. Every thing has a cause or source. All actions have causes. Planets move around because of the properties/ gunas inherent the, Each man does what the guna properties make the man do using the senses. Thus, unless one define man as the conglomeration of senses, Man himself does not act. Only the guna induced sense of ego percieves that it does. But unless man is defined as ego, man does not act. Then what is man? Man is the Self that is always in the realized state on oneness with God and the entire creation. By definition Self does not act. It knows that actions are results of gunas, senses and ego.I have not found any argument that scientifically refutes the above logic preached by God in Gita. Basudeb Sen---Ram RamHave not studied the Gita – but in my Humble Understanding –the senses can never be the doers – they are mere instruments with no independence – How can they ever be the Doers – and the Gita being God's Song – can never say anything that is even slightly incorrect.Ramkrishna Ram Ram------------------Post message: Subscribe:- Un:-

[Guest guest]

Shree Hari,

IN ENGLISH

 

Bhagwaan has in the Gita 18/15-17 given 5 causes for actions (karma), and

Bhagwaan has said not to consider the pure aatma (Self) as the doer, and to

consider the five senses (causes) as the doer of actions, then one will not be

attached to the karmas " actions " and will not get bound by them. I would like to

get your views on this topic. Kalpna Dixit

 

IN HINDI

Bhagwaan ne gita me 18/15 to17 mekarmo ke 5 hetu bataye hai or bhagwaan ne kahaa

hai ki shudh aatma ko karta na maan kar in 5 hetu ko karmo ka karan maante hai

to hum karmo me aasakt nahi hote or bandhan me nahi bandhte ,

mai aap se is topic par aapke views jaanna chaahti hoo Shree Hari, Kalpna Dixit

 

=========================================

Shree Hari Ram Ram The following Gita Verses talk about : DOER (Kartaa) - Gita

3/24, 3/37, 18/14, 18/18, 18/19, 18/26, Gita 18/27, 18/28 Doership (Kartutvam)

- Gita 5/14 Doing (Karoti) - Gita 4/20, 5/10, 6/1, 13/31 Sadhaks please refer

to these verses an help clarify all doubts. Please be VERY BRIEF, RELEVANT, and

RESPECTFUL. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

----------------------------

Please review few prior discussions at: Then who is the doer? Please help

clarify -/message/3357Becoming Free from

Karma Bondage - Actions, Impressions, Doership,

Enjoyership/message/2187Peace and it's

Attainment through Non-Doing / Non-Doership - Clarification

?/message/2918

-------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

From Sadhak Posting.......

 

In Gita, God has revealed either " Nature " (prakriti) or the modes of nature

(gunas) or the senses, as the doer. The modes of nature (gunas) are the evolutes

of Nature (Prakriti), and the senses (indriyas) are the evolutes of the modes

(gunas). Therefore as such, doership is only in Nature. There is no doership in

the sentient Self.

 

God declares - All actions are performed in all cases by Nature (Prakriti). He

whose mind is deluded by egoism, thinks, " I am the doer. "

" Prakruteh kriyamaanaani gunaiyah karmaani sarvashah

Ahamkaara vimudhaatamaa kartaahmiti manyateh. "

 

From " Manav Jivan Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye " in Hindi pg 87 in English pg 87 by

Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

Meera Das, Ram Ram

---------------

 

Thought is the father of the action. As we think so we shall act. So in any

situation how a person acts depends upon his background, experiences, mental

makeup and so on. It is true that our actions arise from a desire to gratify our

senses. Therefore for a person on the spiritual path, it is important to think

carefully before acting so that we may do what is right and proper instead of

being guided by our base instincts and desires, which leads us to do wrong.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

--------------------

 

Dear Audrey,

 

The conclusion is yours. In my opinion, no conclusions are valid when we come to

aspects such as " doership " , " doer " and " Vasudevah Sarvam " ... or anything as a

matter of fact. Conclusion always belong to the person who concludes ... nothing

else. Therefore, no one has any right to conclude for you except yourself. I was

just questioning myself aloud ... pondering aloud ... as to who is this doer and

what is this doing ... THAT IS ALL. If it helps facilitating the questioning

within, use it. Otherwise, TRUST ME, you are not loosing anything! Discard it!!

 

Regards,

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What are the senses and how are these originated? When a child is born, the

first sense that comes out from within is weeping " Maaaa " , the next sense is

sucking, the next sense is watching its own hands and feet. Next is listening to

others speaking, then to learn how to express by sound. Next comes the tendency

of identifying its own people and surrounding environment and then the tendency

of getting up. Gradually the space occupied by it gets enlarged. In the process

its intectual gets developed and it identifies itself as one of the surrounding

environment.From here its ego originates.In the actual sense, we are simple

agglomeration of machinaries ( so to say our senses) like the steering, the

clutch, the gear, the accelerator, the fuel tank and injecting devices. It has

been very correctly said by the poet : " You do your work, peple think I am

doing.. You are the driver and I am the carriage..you are the room and I am the

occupant " . Really speaking what we are, is nothing but the space awarded to us

by virtue of our previous achievements " praravdha " .Hence, in short it comes to

the conclusion that, He is the " Driver " the result of actions are depending on

the quality of the machinaries occupying the space which is being driven by Him.

Barin Chatterjee

--

Shree Paramatmane Namah

What will you do by knowing this? You are neither a doer nor can you become

tainted by any action (Gita 13/31) Now if the doer of any action is the sense or

not, whether the five senses are the cause of doing of any action, what

difference does it make to you? Simply do not accept yourself at the doer.

Become Bhagwaan's and remain that way. In this there is great joy. so be it,

Vineet Sarvottam

------------------------

Namaste Sadhaks

What is your conclusion, Nagaji? It is really very difficult to understand the

way you write! Audrey Rodrigues

---------------------

Dear Sadaks,

Arjuna first thought that he is going to wage war. Then the doer ship was

clearly explained by Bagavan. Then the doer ship was understood and Arjuna

enlightened, waged war to maintain Dharma at large. Here what Arjuna thought

first was that the purpose of War was for kingdom. Then he got enlightened that

the war was not for kingdom. So it means that what ever done for gains the doer

ship gets attached. The same done for Samasta Loka Sukino Bavanthu, there is NO

doer ship. So it is only knowledge that eliminates doer ship to oneself. The

agnan (Ignorance) attaches doer ship to one selfIf one thinks he is educating

his child, then doer ship attaches, causing pain if the child fails or causes

happiness and pride if the child ranks well. here the pain and happiness are due

to ignorance.

B.Sathyanarayan.

-------------------------

Hari Om

Yes ! All actions happen in the regime of Prakruti (Apara Prakruti) ! In Purusha

there is not any action. But when any sin or virtue takes places, Self

(Jeevatma/ Purusha/ Para Prakruti) experiences the results thereof. Yes ! It is

the car which runs. The Driver does not run. But when any accident takes place,

car is not punished, the Driver is punished.Kalpanaji ! 5 causes referred by you

are in BG 18:14 not in 18:15 to 17. One of the 'cause' is 'Karta' (Doer) ! Jeeva

becomes that 'karta' by 'acceptance' and hence suffers punishment. When 'Karta'

viz Jeeva renounces the wrong 'acceptance' and admits 'I am not Karta'- he

ceases to be 'Karta' and ceases to be sinful (18:17). It is all " accepted

doership " not " actual doership " !! Actually there no doership in Jeeva. " Actual

doership' is only in Prakruti (BG 13:20) !! " Punishable/rewardable/relevant

doership " is " assumed doership " not " actual doership " !! Gita saying that Pure

soul is not Karta is right. Jeeva is not Karta but 'accepts' to be Karta and

thus artificially becomes a Karta. Without an " assumed " Karta an " activity " can

place, but not " Karma " . Hence there is no inconsistency in Gitaji. Sadhak

Ramakrishna is right. Gitaji is right. Sadhak Basudeb Sen is also very right in

his message. In fact Purusha ( Para Prakruti) who is part of God, forms affinity

with Apara Prakruti (inert) ! Not only that, he in affinity with inert also

'creates' an independent entity of him'self' as " Prakrutishtha Purusha " ( BG

13:21- Jeeva ) ... Which creation is called 'Aham' ( ego as stated by Basudebji

Sen ) ! In this 'Aham' (Jeeva) , both sentient and inert are there. The

modification (vikaar) of happiness/sorrow takes place in inert portion only ,

but the " effect/result " of the same is on 'knower' sentient portion !!! In other

words, sentient (chetan) 'assumes/accepts' that sorrow/happiness modification as

taking place in him'self' !! Just as while fever comes in body, we say " I am

feverish " ! In fact when you realise that " I am not doer " then you are neither

karta nor bhokta. ( BG 13:31) ! Thereafter , whatever " activities " take place in

the body of Doershipless/Suffershipless ( Kirtitva/bhktritva rahit) Jeeva are

caused by " Aham vritti " (ego) ! The activities done by this " aham " is stated in

Gita by various ways. Say in 13:29 by Prakruti; in 3:27 by Gunas of Prakruti; in

3:28 by Gunas interplay with Gunas; in 14:29 by Gunas and in 5:9 by stating

senses are consuming in senses. Meaning thereby that whatever activities take

place by internal " karanas " and external " karanas " , are all by Prakruti.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas NB

====================================

Who are the doers? Senses? Mind? Body? ...

IndriyaaNaam hi charataam yanmono'nuvidheeyate |

Tadasya harati pragnyaam vaayurnaavmivaambhasi ||

 

The mind hymnotized by the sensorial influences and attractions would

chaotically wander as per the sensoiral dictates from its environment just like

a ship driven by a storm drifting in the ocean aimlessly being perpetually

tossed hither-tither by the reckless waves of desires and fears from within.

Just like a ship that is sailing steadily in the ocean is positively guided and

riven toward its destiny by the favorable winds, the senseful mind and body

cluster appreciates the sonsorial reality embedded in its interaction with the

world to steer its way in the ocean of the thoughts and actions to attain its

destiny cutting across the waves of desires and fears in perfect balance -

equanimity and silence. Senses seem to be the doers of everything as far as

the body-mind duo dances as per the tunes of the sensorial signals being

entangled in its interactions with the world around. Desires and fears seem to

be the doers as far as they come out in tides from within throwing an individual

into thoughts and actions. IndriyaaNaam prithagbhaavamudayaastamayou cha yat |

Prithagutpadyamaanaanaam mattvaa dheero na shochati || But the sensorial

signals are born dead … never exist beyond their very appearance … then how can

they be the doers?! Similarly, the desires and fears are rootless on their own

perpetually anchoring on each other for their own survival … they die to be born

as each other … they take birth to die for each other … they appear and

disappear instantaneously and simultaneously ... then how can they be the

doers??!! Therefore, the fellow who nurtures them … the desires and fears,

toughts and actions, senses, etc. should be the source for these momentary

entities … but, the fellow is eternally missing not coming into the purview of

any quest from the seekers of the yore ... " who am I " remains unanswered inspite

of the quest waged for milleniums ... then, how can that fellow be the

doer???!!! Same applies to the objects around (Vishaya) … are they the doers?

Their span itself is dependent on the sonsorial life … they cannot survive

beyond the senses and hence are as momentary (or more) as the the senses as such

… then, how can the objects of the world be the doers????!!!! THE ONE that is

the basis for all is PURE and INVARIANT to be the all in this universe … there

can be nothing outside THAT to manipulate upon … nothing can be within THAT

either to urge for operation … then, how can the changeless do anything …

Then, where is a doer? Is there any doing?? Krato smara … kritam smara … …

think … is there any doing? Is there any doer?? … think … Respects. Naga

Narayana.

-----------------------------

God has given such a simple to understand Truth. Every thing has a cause or

source. All actions have causes. Planets move around because of the properties/

gunas inherent the, Each man does what the guna properties make the man do using

the senses. Thus, unless one define man as the conglomeration of senses, Man

himself does not act. Only the guna induced sense of ego percieves that it does.

But unless man is defined as ego, man does not act. Then what is man? Man is the

Self that is always in the realized state on oneness with God and the entire

creation. By definition Self does not act. It knows that actions are results of

gunas, senses and ego.I have not found any argument that scientifically refutes

the above logic preached by God in Gita. Basudeb Sen

---

Ram Ram

Have not studied the Gita – but in my Humble Understanding –the senses can never

be the doers – they are mere instruments with no independence – How can they

ever be the Doers – and the Gita being God's Song – can never say anything that

is even slightly incorrect.

Ramkrishna

Ram Ram

 

------------------

 

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Shree Hari,IN ENGLISHBhagwaan has in the Gita 18/15-17 given 5 causes for actions (karma), andBhagwaan has said not to consider the pure aatma (Self) as the doer, and toconsider the five senses (causes) as the doer of actions, then one will not beattached to the karmas "actions" and will not get bound by them. I would like toget your views on this topic. Kalpna DixitIN HINDIBhagwaan ne gita me 18/15 to17 mekarmo ke 5 hetu bataye hai or bhagwaan ne kahaahai ki shudh aatma ko karta na maan kar in 5 hetu ko karmo ka karan maante haito hum karmo me aasakt nahi hote or bandhan me nahi bandhte ,mai aap se is topic par aapke views jaanna chaahti hoo Shree Hari, Kalpna Dixit=========================================Shree Hari Ram Ram

The following Gita Verses talk about :

DOER (Kartaa) - Gita3/24, 3/37, 18/14, 18/18, 18/19, 18/26, Gita 18/27, 18/28

Doership (Kartutvam)- Gita 5/14

Doing (Karoti) - Gita 4/20, 5/10, 6/1, 13/31

Sadhaks please refer to these verses an help clarify all doubts. Please be VERY BRIEF, RELEVANT, and RESPECTFUL. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram----------------------------Please review few prior discussions at: Then who is the doer? Please helpclarify -/message/3357Becoming Free fromKarma Bondage - Actions, Impressions, Doership,Enjoyership/message/2187Peace and it'sAttainment through Non-Doing / Non-Doership - Clarification?/message/2918-------------------------NEW POSTING

Dear Sadaks,Most sadaks are talking of the actions of the body from child born. So much was spoken about Self is different from Body. Birth after birth the same athuman changes body according to the Vasanas, desires, cause and effect. The athuman is the same and nondestructive. So the body undergoes cause and effect as per theory of Karma. Once a man realizes this, he negates body like Jada Bharat, Adi Sankara who offered to be beheaded, Buddha who offered the same, Christ who offered his body for crucification, knowing that HE had nothing to do with the body. Many saints never opened their mouth, or grumbled after they being put to torches. All of them new that their body (Victim) or the other person body (who causes trouble) is the doer. So learned ones knew that they should not do anything body senses pleasures, anger, jealousy etc. All they used the body to serve Japa, Tapa, Sacrifice, Bajan, Sat Sangh Etc. These men lived with family and among the bad people. But they remained untouched to the world, sufferings, pleasures and mental agony. It is only when one says, "I served food to poor" & " I did so much good to brother, but he forgot", then the Karma sticks to that person. One incident, A peasant came in front of Sri Rama and said, "Forgive me Oh Sri Rama I have done harm to you" and another person said, "Oh Sri Rama with the gold ornament you gave I did business and became rich". Sri Rama answer to both was, " I DO NOT REMEMBER". Ponder over it sadaks. There is saying that, "What right hand gives, let not left hand know". Simple which says, cause of action was disowned.B.Sathyanarayan

----

SRI RAMTHE FIVE ACTIVE SENSE ORGANS ARE WITH ATTACHMENTS AND LURE THE BODY/MIND THOUGH THE ATMA IS UNTOUCHED. THEREFORE THE SENSES ARE DOERS AND NEED TO BE CONTROLLED BY MIND AND INTELECT SO THAT DESIRELESSNESS SHALL PURIFY THE SOUL. KARMA IS THROUGH THE SENSES AND MIND WHICH IS NEVER CONSTANT.CONSTANCY OF MIND AND CONTROLING SENSES CAN ONLY LEAD TO PURITY AND LIBERATION FROM BONDAGE.REGARDSNPANDA

-----From Sadhak Posting.......In Gita, God has revealed either "Nature" (prakriti) or the modes of nature(gunas) or the senses, as the doer. The modes of nature (gunas) are the evolutesof Nature (Prakriti), and the senses (indriyas) are the evolutes of the modes(gunas). Therefore as such, doership is only in Nature. There is no doership inthe sentient Self.God declares - All actions are performed in all cases by Nature (Prakriti). Hewhose mind is deluded by egoism, thinks, "I am the doer.""Prakruteh kriyamaanaani gunaiyah karmaani sarvashahAhamkaara vimudhaatamaa kartaahmiti manyateh."From "Manav Jivan Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye" in Hindi pg 87 in English pg 87 bySwami RamsukhdasjiMeera Das, Ram Ram---------------Thought is the father of the action. As we think so we shall act. So in anysituation how a person acts depends upon his background, experiences, mentalmakeup and so on. It is true that our actions arise from a desire to gratify oursenses. Therefore for a person on the spiritual path, it is important to thinkcarefully before acting so that we may do what is right and proper instead ofbeing guided by our base instincts and desires, which leads us to do wrong.Hari Shanker Deo--------------------Dear Audrey,The conclusion is yours. In my opinion, no conclusions are valid when we come toaspects such as "doership", "doer" and "Vasudevah Sarvam" ... or anything as amatter of fact. Conclusion always belong to the person who concludes ... nothingelse. Therefore, no one has any right to conclude for you except yourself. I wasjust questioning myself aloud ... pondering aloud ... as to who is this doer andwhat is this doing ... THAT IS ALL. If it helps facilitating the questioningwithin, use it. Otherwise, TRUST ME, you are not loosing anything! Discard it!!Regards,Naga Narayana.What are the senses and how are these originated? When a child is born, thefirst sense that comes out from within is weeping "Maaaa", the next sense issucking, the next sense is watching its own hands and feet. Next is listening toothers speaking, then to learn how to express by sound. Next comes the tendencyof identifying its own people and surrounding environment and then the tendencyof getting up. Gradually the space occupied by it gets enlarged. In the processits intectual gets developed and it identifies itself as one of the surroundingenvironment.From here its ego originates.In the actual sense, we are simpleagglomeration of machinaries ( so to say our senses) like the steering, the clutch, the gear, the accelerator, the fuel tank and injecting devices. It hasbeen very correctly said by the poet : "You do your work, peple think I amdoing.. You are the driver and I am the carriage..you are the room and I am theoccupant". Really speaking what we are, is nothing but the space awarded to usby virtue of our previous achievements "praravdha".Hence, in short it comes tothe conclusion that, He is the "Driver" the result of actions are depending onthe quality of the machinaries occupying the space which is being driven by Him.Barin Chatterjee--Shree Paramatmane NamahWhat will you do by knowing this? You are neither a doer nor can you becometainted by any action (Gita 13/31) Now if the doer of any action is the sense ornot, whether the five senses are the cause of doing of any action, whatdifference does it make to you? Simply do not accept yourself at the doer.Become Bhagwaan's and remain that way. In this there is great joy. so be it,Vineet Sarvottam------------------------Namaste SadhaksWhat is your conclusion, Nagaji? It is really very difficult to understand theway you write! Audrey Rodrigues---------------------Dear Sadaks,Arjuna first thought that he is going to wage war. Then the doer ship wasclearly explained by Bagavan. Then the doer ship was understood and Arjunaenlightened, waged war to maintain Dharma at large. Here what Arjuna thoughtfirst was that the purpose of War was for kingdom. Then he got enlightened thatthe war was not for kingdom. So it means that what ever done for gains the doership gets attached. The same done for Samasta Loka Sukino Bavanthu, there is NOdoer ship. So it is only knowledge that eliminates doer ship to oneself. Theagnan (Ignorance) attaches doer ship to one selfIf one thinks he is educatinghis child, then doer ship attaches, causing pain if the child fails or causeshappiness and pride if the child ranks well. here the pain and happiness are dueto ignorance.B.Sathyanarayan.-------------------------Hari OmYes ! All actions happen in the regime of Prakruti (Apara Prakruti) ! In Purushathere is not any action. But when any sin or virtue takes places, Self(Jeevatma/ Purusha/ Para Prakruti) experiences the results thereof. Yes ! It isthe car which runs. The Driver does not run. But when any accident takes place,car is not punished, the Driver is punished.Kalpanaji ! 5 causes referred by youare in BG 18:14 not in 18:15 to 17. One of the 'cause' is 'Karta' (Doer) ! Jeevabecomes that 'karta' by 'acceptance' and hence suffers punishment. When 'Karta'viz Jeeva renounces the wrong 'acceptance' and admits 'I am not Karta'- heceases to be 'Karta' and ceases to be sinful (18:17). It is all "accepteddoership" not "actual doership" !! Actually there no doership in Jeeva. "Actualdoership' is only in Prakruti (BG 13:20) !! "Punishable/rewardable/relevantdoership" is "assumed doership" not "actual doership" !! Gita saying that Puresoul is not Karta is right. Jeeva is not Karta but 'accepts' to be Karta andthus artificially becomes a Karta. Without an "assumed" Karta an "activity" canplace, but not "Karma". Hence there is no inconsistency in Gitaji. SadhakRamakrishna is right. Gitaji is right. Sadhak Basudeb Sen is also very right inhis message. In fact Purusha ( Para Prakruti) who is part of God, forms affinitywith Apara Prakruti (inert) ! Not only that, he in affinity with inert also'creates' an independent entity of him'self' as "Prakrutishtha Purusha" ( BG13:21- Jeeva ) ... Which creation is called 'Aham' ( ego as stated by BasudebjiSen ) ! In this 'Aham' (Jeeva) , both sentient and inert are there. Themodification (vikaar) of happiness/sorrow takes place in inert portion only ,but the "effect/result" of the same is on 'knower' sentient portion !!! In otherwords, sentient (chetan) 'assumes/accepts' that sorrow/happiness modification astaking place in him'self' !! Just as while fever comes in body, we say " I amfeverish" ! In fact when you realise that "I am not doer" then you are neitherkarta nor bhokta. ( BG 13:31) ! Thereafter , whatever "activities" take place inthe body of Doershipless/Suffershipless ( Kirtitva/bhktritva rahit) Jeeva arecaused by "Aham vritti" (ego) ! The activities done by this "aham" is stated inGita by various ways. Say in 13:29 by Prakruti; in 3:27 by Gunas of Prakruti; in3:28 by Gunas interplay with Gunas; in 14:29 by Gunas and in 5:9 by statingsenses are consuming in senses. Meaning thereby that whatever activities takeplace by internal "karanas" and external "karanas" , are all by Prakruti.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas NB====================================Who are the doers? Senses? Mind? Body? ...IndriyaaNaam hi charataam yanmono'nuvidheeyate |Tadasya harati pragnyaam vaayurnaavmivaambhasi ||The mind hymnotized by the sensorial influences and attractions wouldchaotically wander as per the sensoiral dictates from its environment just likea ship driven by a storm drifting in the ocean aimlessly being perpetuallytossed hither-tither by the reckless waves of desires and fears from within. Just like a ship that is sailing steadily in the ocean is positively guided andriven toward its destiny by the favorable winds, the senseful mind and bodycluster appreciates the sonsorial reality embedded in its interaction with theworld to steer its way in the ocean of the thoughts and actions to attain itsdestiny cutting across the waves of desires and fears in perfect balance -equanimity and silence. Senses seem to be the doers of everything as far asthe body-mind duo dances as per the tunes of the sensorial signals beingentangled in its interactions with the world around. Desires and fears seem tobe the doers as far as they come out in tides from within throwing an individualinto thoughts and actions. IndriyaaNaam prithagbhaavamudayaastamayou cha yat |Prithagutpadyamaanaanaam mattvaa dheero na shochati || But the sensorialsignals are born dead … never exist beyond their very appearance … then how canthey be the doers?! Similarly, the desires and fears are rootless on their ownperpetually anchoring on each other for their own survival … they die to be bornas each other … they take birth to die for each other … they appear anddisappear instantaneously and simultaneously ... then how can they be thedoers??!! Therefore, the fellow who nurtures them … the desires and fears,toughts and actions, senses, etc. should be the source for these momentaryentities … but, the fellow is eternally missing not coming into the purview ofany quest from the seekers of the yore ... "who am I" remains unanswered inspiteof the quest waged for milleniums ... then, how can that fellow be thedoer???!!! Same applies to the objects around (Vishaya) … are they the doers?Their span itself is dependent on the sonsorial life … they cannot survivebeyond the senses and hence are as momentary (or more) as the the senses as such… then, how can the objects of the world be the doers????!!!! THE ONE that isthe basis for all is PURE and INVARIANT to be the all in this universe … therecan be nothing outside THAT to manipulate upon … nothing can be within THATeither to urge for operation … then, how can the changeless do anything … Then, where is a doer? Is there any doing?? Krato smara … kritam smara … …think … is there any doing? Is there any doer?? … think … Respects. NagaNarayana.-----------------------------God has given such a simple to understand Truth. Every thing has a cause orsource. All actions have causes. Planets move around because of the properties/gunas inherent the, Each man does what the guna properties make the man do usingthe senses. Thus, unless one define man as the conglomeration of senses, Manhimself does not act. Only the guna induced sense of ego percieves that it does.But unless man is defined as ego, man does not act. Then what is man? Man is theSelf that is always in the realized state on oneness with God and the entirecreation. By definition Self does not act. It knows that actions are results ofgunas, senses and ego.I have not found any argument that scientifically refutesthe above logic preached by God in Gita. Basudeb Sen---Ram RamHave not studied the Gita – but in my Humble Understanding –the senses can neverbe the doers – they are mere instruments with no independence – How can theyever be the Doers – and the Gita being God's Song – can never say anything thatis even slightly incorrect.RamkrishnaRam Ram------------------Post message: Subscribe:- Un: