Jain Influence (was EB)

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On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:36:05 -0500 KANEKAL writes:

>KANEKAL

>>

> As I mentioned in passing before - why all this fuss about

> " influence " ?

> We should debate this. My own reading of the situation is that there

>

> appears to be (at least) two ways in which the word " influence " is

>used

> and what it implies:

>

> 1. A is influenced by B is just a euphemism to deny A any

>originality and

> hence A can conveniently be relegated to the sidelines. This

>implication

> pervades the western perception of Indian achievements;philosophy

>(greek

> influence),music (arab/persian influence - I am talking about

>hindustani

> classical music in particular) ...etc. If such an influence cannot

>be

> detected, then it is of no consequence. James Mill's dismisall of

> " india's

> exaggerated claims to anitquity " comes to mind.

>

> 2. A is influenced by B in the sense Russell being influenced by

>Wittgenstein

> or Einstein being influenced by Mach ... etc. Here no denigration

>of the

> former is being implied.

>

> I would not have any quarrell with the the statement Madhva was

>influenced

> by Jain ontology/epistemology... if the second meaning is being used.

>Such

> an influence is only the hall-mark of an open mind. It has been said

>that

> in ancient India, ideas were freely discussed, debated and

>assimilated into

> various systems. From a historical standpoint it could not have been

> otherwise. People ans systems do not exist in a vaccuum.

==============

I think you are missing the whole point. When it comes to epistemology,

ontology or any branch of knowledge for that matter, Madhva couldn't have

been influenced by anybody in any sense. In terms of tAratamya, Madhva,

who will become Brahma in the future, is next only to Vishnu and Laxmi

which means if anybody has to impart any ideas to Madhva, it has to be

(1) The Lord Himself or (2) Laxmi or (3)Brahma. Anyone who is situated

below Madhva cannot " influence " him. Which means even dEvatha-s such as

Sesha, Rudra, Indra, etc. also cannot " influence " Madhva. Due to his

position, Madhva is also immune to any kind of asura vyAmOha at any time.

So his knowledge does not suffer from any kind of deficiency at any time.

When this is the case, the idea that Madhva was influenced by Jaina ideas

doesn't make sense. Statements such as- " ……with Jaina culture all

around him, so to speak, he [Madhva] could draw concepts and a style of

philosophising from that source, to integrate them PROFITABLY into his

own system " may be profitable in getting papers published in modern

" prestigious " journals of philosophy, but have no value whatsoever among

traditional Madhwas.

 

Of course, whether Madhva is third in tAratamya, or whether tAratamya

among jIva-s even exists is a whole different story. I am not asking Dr.

Zydenbos or anyone reading this to accept that Madhva is jIvottama and

doesn't suffer from ignorance of any kind at any time and hence, doesn't

need to borrow ideas from other philosophers. These are issues which

ought to be learned in a traditional way which involves serving guru-s

and elders, practicing austerity, observing rituals, giving up " scholarly

pride " and the list goes on. As a matter of fact, Srimad Acharya says

that knowledge will not bear full fruit for any of the following four

reasons.

 

(1) Knowledge was obtained from an unqualified guru

(2) Knowledge was given to an unqualified disciple

(3) Even if both are qualified, disciple obtained the knowledge without

properly serving the guru

(4) The Guru was not satisfied for some reason or the other

 

So, as Shrisha Rao said quite honestly earlier, all discussion on this

list (or CMS list) is but a *very* poor substitute for traditional

learning. As far as discussions with modern academicians are concerned, I

think it is a waste of time. Modern academicians are more worried about

who is from which University and who has published what paper in which

journal. In otherwords, their priorities are different. When it comes to

spiritual issues, modern academicians especially those who are more

concerned about mundane recognition and achievements, cannot be and

should not be treated as valid sources of knowledge.

 

Regards

-Nataraj

 

 

>

> regards,

> Shri Kanekal

 

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