RAmAnuja, dbj & Averroes

[Guest guest]

Dear KP:

 

This is just to let you know that a junior contemporary of

AcArya RAmAnuja (1017-1137 AD) half a world away was thinking

of the same problem and came up with a very similar solution.

 

The issue, of course, is how can an immutable God know an

ever-changing world? AcArya RAmAnuja came up with

dharmabhUtajn~Ana as a solution. Similarly, Abul WAlId ibn Rushd

(1126-1198 AD), [alias Averroes] one of the greatest

philosophers of Islam who was also the Grand WazIr to the

Ummayyad Caliph at Cordoba in Moorish Spain came up with a

very similar solution to AcArya RAmAnuja's. Averroes points out

that there must be a knowledge which is " eternal-temporal " thru

which the Changeless God perceives the events of the temporal

world without His essence being affected.

 

I presume that there are only so many ways that one can

solve a problem given the physiological circuitry and

limitations of the human mind. Sooner or later, every

philosopher (no matter where in the world he is or which

cultural context he is operating in), I guess, will ultimately

have to fall into a certain given solution slot.

 

Just thought I should share this with you.

 

regards,

Hari-vAyu smaraNa

Balaji Hebbar

[Guest guest]

[Krishna Kalale] Dear Sri Balaji,

 

thanks for your note on this subject.

 

 

 

On an other issue, I have a question. Can someone in the list paraphrase the

Madhva bhasya on certain abheda srutis such as :

 

sadeva somya idam agra asit ekameva advitiyam

 

tadaikshata bahusyam iti - both chandogya and taittiriya

 

ayam atma brahma

 

prajnanam brahma

 

yatra tu dvaitamiva bhavati taditara itaram pasyati.... .. brihadaranyaka

 

 

(I am aware of tat tvam asi , since it is taken as atat tvamasi and is a famous

view of Sri Madhva.)

 

thanks

 

Krishna Kalale

[Guest guest]

dear Balaji,

 

Another issue came to my mind when I thought about your email :

 

 

 

Balaji Hebbar [sMTP:bhebbar]

Friday, December 10, 1999 9:26 PM

kkalale1

Cc: ; mani; gurukripa1;

vijay_srinivasan; mmurthy; seshadri;

venkataramu

RAmAnuja, dbj & Averroes

 

Balaji Hebbar <bhebbar

 

Dear KP:

 

The issue, of course, is how can an immutable God know an

ever-changing world? AcArya RAmAnuja came up with

dharmabhUtajn~Ana as a solution. Similarly, Abul WAlId ibn Rushd

(1126-1198 AD), [alias Averroes] one of the greatest

philosophers of Islam who was also the Grand WazIr to the

Ummayyad Caliph at Cordoba in Moorish Spain came up with a

very similar solution to AcArya RAmAnuja's. Averroes points out

that there must be a knowledge which is " eternal-temporal " thru

which the Changeless God perceives the events of the temporal

world without His essence being affected.

[Krishna Kalale]

 

 

Here I would like to state another aspect of Dharma bhuta jnana for God.

Why does he need it? Dharmabhuta jnana is that through which a concscious

entity understands something other than itself. Then comes the question -

Is there anything in the universe other than God? If yes, then definitely

an eternal- mutable-entity called dharmabutajnana has to be accepted.

 

As per the upanisadic statement - sadeva somya idam agra asit ekameva

advitiyam,

 

meaning - " All this, which is sat only existed in the beginning without a

second " . the way Advaita deals with this is that - maya sabalitam brahma

ekameva asit - " ie. associated with maya, brahman alone existed. That

means SriSankaracharya clearly knew that If only Brahman existed (that too

he is nirguna as per advaita) the creation of universe cannot be explained.

Hence, association of Brahman with maya had to be accepted right at the

beginning of the chandogya - 6th ie. sadvidya section.

 

On the other hand, in visistadvaita, this assumption need not be made. As

per visistadvaita, Chit- achit visista Brahman alone existed in the

beginning. Here since matter and souls are taken as attributes of Brahman,

the one' ness of Universal principle is explained coherently. This also

means that using dharma bhuta jnana Lord participates in Leela which

involves souls and matter. Because of this oneness of this universe,

matter and souls had to be associated with Brahman as attributes to get

around the principle of " unity " . Since Brahman does not undergo

transformation during creation, the transformation affects only jivas and

jada. Even the jivas' svarupa does not transform but their

dharmabhutajnana changes continuously.

 

Now comes the important issue. Brahman is immutable. Hence,

transformation is ascribed to his attributes, which are souls and matter.

If the attributes and substance were one and the same thing,

transformation had to affect the substance. In case of Brahman, this

means that it contradicts the nirvikaratva aspect of Brahman. Since this

cannot be accepted, Visistadvaita proposes a real difference between

substance and attributes. This way the transformation to attributes do not

affect the substance. The same issue applies to jiva and its attributive

knowledge ie. dharmabhuta jnana. JIva is eternal and constant, Hence

changes in knowledge etc. affect dharmabhuta jnana, which is an attribute

of jiva.

 

This is where Sri Madhva system is different I guess. substance and

attributes are different and non different as per this system. The

non-difference aspect is the issue which is in controversy between

visistadvaita and dvaita. The non-difference affects the immutability of

the substance. When substance is either taken as jiva or Brahman, then

this " non-difference " aspect forces the substance itself to transform when

attributes change. I am sure that from Sri Madhva system's perspective

there may be a different way of addressing this problem. This is what I am

trying to understand. I studied vishesha from BNK sharma's book. However,

the visistadvaita-dvaita polemical issue pertaining to the general subject

- substance attribute relationship is not really presented in detail in

that book. I wish I can find another book. May be vijayendra parajaya and

vijayendra vak vijaya vaijayanti may have some details on this subject. I

will look into atleast one of these books to get more info.

 

In the meantime if someone in this list has more info regarding these

issues, Please go ahead and wite about it.

 

Regards,

 

asmadgurubhyo namah

 

 

Krishna Kalale