Fwd: RE: Ayyappa/Madhva Philisophy or what does it take to be a mAdhva

[Guest guest]

napsrao wrote:

 

> napsrao <napsrao

>

>

> 2. One has to take into consideration the totality of a system

> of philosophy when accepting Puranic stories even when the

> source is authenticated. I am not sure if the mythical stories

> about God Ayyappa as distinct fron the historical personality

> that would appear to be behind the myth making associated with

> his name have been properly authenticated. Even assuming for a

> moment that they are, it is against the basic features of

> Acharya Madhva's teachings to accept that Vishnu who is

> Sarvotthama mothered Lord shiva's child, to help deal with an

> Asura with a boon given by some body , possibly Brahma. There

> are many stories in Puranas where Vishnu and Vayu have

> disregarded the boons given by Brahma and Shiva to destroy evil.

> None of the authentic puranas or any texts like Mahabharatha

> Thathparya Nirnaya have any thing that can be remotely construed

> as accepting an event like this.

> I can not say that freedom to accept any faith or belief

> includes intellectual inconsistency. One has to choose between

> being a Madhva or being a devotee of Ayyappa, as a god. If this

> basic requirement is given up, one can be a combination of

> beliefs of many religions on the grounds of expediency,

> miracles, personal choice without any basis in Pramanas etc.

> I sincerely feel that such would not be the accepted policy of

> Vishva Madhva Snagha.

 

Dear Sri NAPS Rao,

namaskAra. I agree with your analysis that ayyappa mythology and worship is

intellectually inconsistent with mAdhva philosophical precepts. I also agree

that the ideal situation is that our religious beliefs should be intellectually

consistent

with mAdhva philosophical situations. But I have to disagree slightly on your

recommendations. Let me explain my position and the rationale behind it.

 

I would like to add that none of this discussions including my posting

describes the official position of VMS. These are all individual postings trying

to analyze and define the role of beliefs with respect to various influences in

a person's

life.

 

I would like to have this discussion based on general situations and not based

on any specific set of circumstances. I am not recommending anybody to do

anything. I am just stating what my analysis leads me to.

 

One of the greatest gifts of mAdhva philosophy is that it can allow a person

have his whole belief system, outlook like in life and answer to many of life's

questions be based on intellectual and philosophical inquiry and analysis.

However, we

don't do a good job of explaining that this is possible to all the people in the

community. I was not aware of this until a few years ago!. So, how can we expect

people to have their beliefs based on the intellectual analysis if they are not

aware

of that capability exists!.

 

I think ONE OF THE GREATEST GIFTS that we can give to our children is to pass

on this message to them. Sri JayakrishNa can probably explain this better.

bramha jignasa or philosophical inquiry does not presuppose anything. It does

not presuppose

that God exists at all. Every thing has to be derived. Sri puthige swamiji said

in one of his lectures that once you agree that universe is not created by

accident (charvaka theory) and that there is an explanation for what we see,

open minded

philosophical analysis inexorably leads one down a path that leads to mAdhva

philosophy.

 

With this background, let me tackle the imaginary situation when a person

worshipping ayappa (or any other demi-god) comes to me with a question saying if

it is right or wrong to do the worship.

 

I would say that mAdhva philosophy and Gita says that worship of demigods

leads to obtaining kAmya phala (material results) but not the ultimate bliss or

salvation.

 

kAmaih taistaihR^itahj~nanAH prapadyantEnya devatAH |

tam tam niyama mAstAya prakR^ityA niyatAH svaya || 7.20|| BG

 

some people lose the tatva j~nana due to material desires and according to

their nature do the necessary duties and approach other demigods.

 

sa taya shradhdhayA yukatH tasyArAdhanamIhate |

labhatE cha tataH kAmAn maiyeva vihitAhi tAn || 7.22||

 

he worships the demigod with devotion and gets his desires. The desires

(results) actually are given me.

 

antavantu phalaM tEshAM tadbhavatyalpamedhAsAM |

devAN deva yajo yAnti madbhaktA yAnti mAmapi ||7.23||

 

(Those who worship demigods) obtain limited and temporary fruits. Worshipper's

of demigods obtain those demigods. Those who worship me obtain me ( and the

infinite fruit of bliss).

 

Sri madhvAcharya's commentary of verses 13-23 from GitA tAtparya is as follows.

I have given the translation in English from kannada from the PPVM book. All

errors in translation are mine.

 

vAsudeva is the only one that has all of the auspicious qualities and is

complete. Nobody else is like him.Only those who know him obtain salvation.

Those who know vAsudeva as such are very rare. Others don't know vAsudeva as the

supreme God, who

is superior to everybody, think that other demigods are superior to everybody

to complete their material desires. Those who do not know that vishNu is

superior to brahma, rudra and others and worship brahma and other gods as

superior to vishNu go

to andhantamas or eternal Hell. One who is born in ignorant clan and does not

have shastra j~nana, after he realizes that vishNu is the supreme God, all the

previous worship he has done to the demigods will result in material results.

Once a person

knows vishNu sarvottamatva, one should never worship other gods as superior to

vishNu. They should only be worshipped as attendant devatAs to vishNu. Then only

the person might get material results. There is no harm done if one worships

other gods

and gives up their worship after he learns of vishNu as supreme God. It will

only result in future births. If there is a natural bhakta of vishNu who is

worshipping other gods due to some reasons, God himself will remind him about

vishNu's

supremacy. God will make a person as nimitta mAtra guru to teach him the lesson.

 

Sri madhvAcharya's gItA bhAshya's translation on the same verses goes like this:

 

People who worship other gods after knowing (and doing anusandhAna of )

supremacy of vishNu obtain other gods. Those who don't know vishNu's supremacy

and worship other gods go to tamas. People do not go to tamas just because of

the ignorance of

vishNu's supremacy. People with wrong knowledge, but who do not have a

definite conviction that sri Hari is similar to other gods, or that sri Hari

is lesser than other gods or sri Hari is one with other gods get stuck in the

cycle of birth and

death. If they get definite conviction of these faults, then they go to tamas.

 

 

So, sri madhvAcharya's position is very clearly stated here. There is no bar to

worship demigods as long as the worship of vishNu , vishNu sarvottamatva and

tAratamya order are kept in mind. mAdhva tradition worship of garuda, shesha,

rudra and

gaNapathi is allowed after the worship of sri Hari, lakshmi and vAyu in the

tAratamya order.

 

 

Summarizing, I would say that the first thing to do is to worship vishNu as

sarvottama and other gods according to tAratamya as attendant gods. My guess is

that ayappa would be a demigod under rudra gana. So if there is a strong desire

to

worship ayyappa, he may be worshipped after worshipping sri Hari, vAyu and

rudra in tAratamya in order to obtain material desires. One has to be careful

not to follow advaitic concepts that are common in the ayyappa worship. It is of

course

best not to worship gods not specifically common in the madhva tradition

because no lasting benefits can come from such worship.

 

 

 

 

Regards,

Hare krishNa

Vasu Murthy

 

 

>

> NAPSRao

 

--

=================================

Vasu Murthy

vmurthy

 

==================================

[Guest guest]

>I think ONE OF THE GREATEST GIFTS that we can give to our children is to

pass on this message to >them. Sri JayakrishNa can probably explain this

better. bramha jignasa or philosophical inquiry does not >presuppose

anything.

 

hi Vasu,

 

The point is this. During one's " growth " various concepts ( including the

one which says there is no god,

and the one which says God is in a certain way or the other ) do occur as

poorva-paxsha. The one who

is equipped to do the enquiry, ( known as Adhikara in Madhwa Siddantha )

will not be content and happy with those positions, and so that person will

naturally make that concept into " Sandhigdha " or a subject-matter of

enquiry.

 

Na Ati Vedyo Na cha avedyaha tasmaat sa parameshwarah - Acharya Vaak

(God is god becuase you can not know him completely, at the same time it

does not mean that you can

not know Him at all )

 

For the one who is not equipped to do this enquiry, he will be stuck with

that theory of God that he is pleased with, and his Jigyaasaa comes to an

end, which means he has killed his own thinking principle.

 

Ishaavaasya describes this with terms like " Vidyaayaa gum rathaaha " and

" Ye Ke Chaa Atma Hano

Janaaha "

 

This is how, the whole of development of Poorva-Paxa leading to Siddantha

takes place. Given this, as you can see, poorva-paksha is a necessary

step in one's development.

 

>.......let me tackle the imaginary situation when a person worshipping

ayappa (or any other demi-god)

> comes to me with a question saying if it is right or wrong to do the

worship.

 

So, suggesting to throw away a certain picture/photo of a certain God and

to keep a picture/photo

of a certain other god is not what is called for. What is called for is

to keep both the pictures away, and bring Vyaasa-Peetha to the front, and

start learning Shaastra. That is the only solution.

 

 

" Tasmaat ShastreNa Jignaasyam Asmadeeyam GuNaarNavam " - Anu Vyakhyaana

( So our God of infinite attributes is to be made subject matter of

enquiry )

 

" Tasmaat Shaastram Pramaanam te karyaakaryou vyavasthitau " - Geetha

 

" Jignaasoththa Jnanajaat Tat prasaadaadeva Muchyate " - Madhwa

(One is released by the Prasaada of Parabrahman, which results from the

Knowledge obtained ONLY

thro Jignyaasaa)

 

 

The will of God thro which a Jiva in " Bandha " (i.e., in ignorance, stuck in

poorva-paxsha, going after material results etc ) is released is called

" Prasaada " , and according to Madhwa, this Prasaada will

happen only as a result of Brahma-Jigyaasaa.

 

Harihi Om Tatsat,

 

jayakrishna Nelamangala

----------

----------

RJAY Consultants Inc.,

Tel: (703)430-8090 Fax: (703)904-8496

Email: jay

----------

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[Guest guest]

>bramha jignasa or philosophical inquiry does not >presuppose anything.

 

hi Vasu,

 

Let me clarify here that what you mean by " presuppose " is the conclusion

that one should arrive

at thro enquiry and not start out with pre-conceived conclusions.

 

Vyaasatheertha in Tatparya chandrika calls this

" Jnaatavyasya praageva Jnaatatayaa Vichaara Vaiphalyaat "

(If what is to be known thro enquiry is already known, then the whole

Shastra is rendered as waste)

 

However, Brahma-Jignaasaa has a pre-requisite viz., adhikaara ( necessary

qualification or fittedness).

 

Now what is this Adhikara?. Shankara seems to suggest that it is the

4-fold discipline which includes

" Nityaa-Nitya vastu viveka " that is the pre-req for Jigyaasaa, and it was

upto Vyaasatheertha to show

how this four-fold discipline neither leads to Jigyaasaa nor is conceivable.

 

Harihi om Tatsat,

 

jayakrishna Nelamangala

----------

----------

RJAY Consultants Inc.,

Tel: (703)430-8090 Fax: (703)904-8496

Email: jay

----------

----------

 

Jay Nelamangala <rci

vmurthy <vmurthy; napsrao

<napsrao

Cc: < >

Tuesday, January 18, 2000 12:40 PM

Re: Fwd: RE: Ayyappa/Madhva Philisophy or what

does it take to be a mAdhva

 

 

> " Jay Nelamangala " <rci

>

>

>

>>I think ONE OF THE GREATEST GIFTS that we can give to our children is to

>pass on this message to >them. Sri JayakrishNa can probably explain this

>better. bramha jignasa or philosophical inquiry does not >presuppose

>anything.

>

>hi Vasu,

>

>The point is this. During one's " growth " various concepts ( including the

>one which says there is no god,

>and the one which says God is in a certain way or the other ) do occur as

>poorva-paxsha. The one who

>is equipped to do the enquiry, ( known as Adhikara in Madhwa Siddantha )

>will not be content and happy with those positions, and so that person

will

>naturally make that concept into " Sandhigdha " or a subject-matter of

>enquiry.

>

>Na Ati Vedyo Na cha avedyaha tasmaat sa parameshwarah - Acharya Vaak

>(God is god becuase you can not know him completely, at the same time it

>does not mean that you can

>not know Him at all )

>

>For the one who is not equipped to do this enquiry, he will be stuck with

>that theory of God that he is pleased with, and his Jigyaasaa comes to an

>end, which means he has killed his own thinking principle.

>

>Ishaavaasya describes this with terms like " Vidyaayaa gum rathaaha " and

> " Ye Ke Chaa Atma Hano

>Janaaha "

>

>This is how, the whole of development of Poorva-Paxa leading to Siddantha

>takes place. Given this, as you can see, poorva-paksha is a necessary

>step in one's development.

>

>>.......let me tackle the imaginary situation when a person worshipping

>ayappa (or any other demi-god)

> > comes to me with a question saying if it is right or wrong to do the

>worship.

>

>So, suggesting to throw away a certain picture/photo of a certain God and

>to keep a picture/photo

>of a certain other god is not what is called for. What is called for is

>to keep both the pictures away, and bring Vyaasa-Peetha to the front, and

>start learning Shaastra. That is the only solution.

>

>

> " Tasmaat ShastreNa Jignaasyam Asmadeeyam GuNaarNavam " - Anu Vyakhyaana

>( So our God of infinite attributes is to be made subject matter of

>enquiry )

>

> " Tasmaat Shaastram Pramaanam te karyaakaryou vyavasthitau " - Geetha

>

> " Jignaasoththa Jnanajaat Tat prasaadaadeva Muchyate " - Madhwa

>(One is released by the Prasaada of Parabrahman, which results from the

>Knowledge obtained ONLY

>thro Jignyaasaa)

>

>

>The will of God thro which a Jiva in " Bandha " (i.e., in ignorance, stuck in

>poorva-paxsha, going after material results etc ) is released is called

> " Prasaada " , and according to Madhwa, this Prasaada will

>happen only as a result of Brahma-Jigyaasaa.

>

>Harihi Om Tatsat,

>

>jayakrishna Nelamangala

>---------

-

>----------

>RJAY Consultants Inc.,

>Tel: (703)430-8090 Fax: (703)904-8496

>Email: jay

>---------

-

>----------

>

>

>

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>

>nAham kartA hariH kartA tatpUjA karmachaakhilam.h|

>taThaapi matkR^itaa pUja tatprasaadhEna naanyaThaa|

>tadbhakti tadphalam.h mahyam.h tatprasaadaat.h punaH punaH |

>karmanyaasO harAvevam.h vishNOsthR^iptikaraH sadhA ||

>

> " I am not the doer, shri Hari is the doer, all the actions that I do are

His worship. Even then, the worship I do is through His grace and not

otherwise. That devotion and the fruits of the actions that come to me are

due to His recurring grace "

>If one always practices to do actions with a dedicated spirit to Hari, in

this way, it pleases Vishnu.

> --- Quoted by Sri madhvAchArya in GitA tAtparya

>