Guest guest Posted January 24, 2000 Report Share Posted January 24, 2000 [ ] Monday, January 24, 2000 4:36 AM Digest Number 267 --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- Want to send money instantly to anyone, anywhere, anytime? You can today at X.com - and we'll give you $20 to try it. Sign up today at X.com. It's quick, free, & there's no obligation. <a href= " http://clickme./ad/xcom " >Click Here</a> ------ nAham kartA hariH kartA tatpUjA karmachaakhilam.h| taThaapi matkR^itaa pUja tatprasaadhEna naanyaThaa| tadbhakti tadphalam.h mahyam.h tatprasaadaat.h punaH punaH | karmanyaasO harAvevam.h vishNOsthR^iptikaraH sadhA || " I am not the doer, shri Hari is the doer, all the actions that I do are His worship. Even then, the worship I do is through His grace and not otherwise. That devotion and the fruits of the actions that come to me are due to His recurring grace " If one always practices to do actions with a dedicated spirit to Hari, in this way, it pleases Vishnu. --- Quoted by Sri madhvAchArya in GitA tAtparya ------ There are 6 messages in this issue. Topics in today's digest: 1. Re: Some observations " Prasanna Krishna " <krish_p 2. UNSUBSCRIBE " Arun Simha " <arun_simha 3. Re: Some observations napsrao <napsrao 4. Re: Digest Number 264 Balaji Hebbar <bhebbar 5. RE: Some observations KANEKAL 6. [Fwd: Vishnu SahasranAma] napsrao <napsrao __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 1 Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:24:10 IST " Prasanna Krishna " <krish_p Re: Some observations !!! srIhi !!! !!! shrI gurubhyO namaha !!! !!! parama gurubhyO namaha !!! !!! lAtavya chakravarthi bhAvI samIra shrI vAdirAja gurubhyO namaha !!! !!! shrImadAnanda tIrtha gurubhyO namaha !!! !!! bimbakriyAyaiva kriyAvAn aham dAsajIvaha !!! Namaskaragalu! E mahImandaladoliha guru | shrI madAchAryara mathAnuga | rA mahA vaishnavara vishnu pAdAbja madhukarara || stOmakAnamipe avaravara | nAmagala nempElve bahuvidha | yAma yAmangalali bodhisalemage sanmathiya || [Harikathamrutasara - Sandhi 32 - Padya 53] There has been much debate recently regarding Ayyappa. Each one came up with their own view. I definitely would not like to contribute any further on this issue, but would definitely wish to thank all those who could understand my hridaya. A philosophical discussion : -------------------------- In my previous posting on jIva sAdhana vichAra, we had come across the topic of brahma kalpa. I would like to present here an overview of kAla as defined in Srimad harikathAmrutasAra by Sri jagannAtha dAsa's Indweller sri jagannAtha vitthala. The basis for the subject is the commentary by Sri sankarshana wodeyaru. Pl. excuse me for any mistakes and pl. correct me wherever I am wrong. Hope the calculations shown hereunder are not confusing. As usual, the mail is quite long and I request sAdhakAs to have a patient reading. If the topic is already dealt in the mailing list, I request your apologies. kAla vichAra (Time Aspect) -------------------------- The following is a detailed description of KAla wrt. to mAnavAs, dEvathAs & shrI brahma dEvaru 1) Why so much importance to kAla ? 2) What is so important about kAla ? The above questions are answered by Sri jagannAtha dAsaru : kAlAntargata kAlaniyAmaka kAlAtEta trikAlagna | kAlapravarthaka kAlanivarthaka kAlOthpAdaka kAlamurthi || tava dAsOham tava dAsOham shrI hari is kAlAntaryAmi & He is kAla shabdha vAchya. upAsana of kAlAnAmaka shrI hari forms one of the most important sAdhanAs. parama sUkshma kAlAmsha is considered to be 'kshaNa'. kshaNa could further be divided into smaller portions, but this would be out of human imagination and hence shrI jagannAtha dAsaru has considered kshana to be the starting point. kAla vichAra of mAnavAs ----------------------- 1. kshaNa 2. 5 kshaNAs = 1 truti 3. 50 trutis = 1 lava 4. 2 lavAs = 1 nimEsha 5. 8 nimEshas = 1 mAtra 6. 2 mAtrAs = 1 guru 7. 10 gurus = 1 prANa 8. 6 prANAs = 1 paLa 9. 60 paLAs = 1 ghatika (ghalige) 10. 30 ghatikAs = 1 night (12 hrs.) & 30 ghatikAs = 1 hagalu (12 hrs.) => 60 ghatikAs = 1 day considered to be 24 hours. 11. 15 days = 1 paksha 12. 2 pakshAs = 1 mAsa (month) 13. 2 mAsAs = 1 rutu 14. 3 rutUs = 1 ayana 15. 2 ayanAs = 1 varsha (year) => 360 Man days = 1 Man year shrImad harikathAmrutasAra quotations from aparOksha tAratamya sandhi - 24: paramasUkshma kshaNavaidu truti | karesuvudu aivattu truti lava | eradu lavavu nimEsha nimEshagaLentu mAtra yuga | guru dasha prANavu paLavu ha | nneradu bANavu ghaLige trimshati | iruLu hagalaravattu ghatikagaLahOrAtrigaLu || 56 || E divArAtrigaLeradu hadi | naidu pakshagaLeradu mAsaga | LAdapavu mAsadvayave rutu rututrayagaLayana | aiduvuvu ayanadvayAbda kru | tAdiyugagaLu dEvamAnadi | dwAdashasahasra varushagaLahavadanu pELuvenu || 57 || kAla vichAra of dEvathAs ------------------------ 360 Man Days or 1 Man Year = 1 dEvatha Day => 360 Man years = 1 dEvatha year => 1,29,600 Man Days = 1 dEvatha year kAla vichAra of ChaturyugAs (kruta - trEta - dwApara - kali -------------------------- DY -> dEvatha Year MY -> Man Year 1. kruta Yuga = 4,800 DY = 17,28,000 MY 2. trEta Yuga = 3,600 DY = 12,96,000 MY 3. dwApara Yuga = 2,400 DY = 8,64,000 MY 4. kali Yuga = 1,200 DY = 4,32,000 MY ------------- ---------------- Total 12,000 DY = 43,20,000 MY ------------- ---------------- chatussAviradentu nUravu | krutayugake trisahasra saleshat | shatavu trEtage dwAparake dwisahasra nAnUru || ditijapati kaliyugake sAvira | shatagaLa dvaya kUdi E dE | vategaLige hanneradusAviravahavu varushagaLu || 58 || prathamayugakELadhikavare vim | shatisulakshAshtOtthara vim | shathisahasra manushyamAnAbdhagaLu shaNNavati | mitha sahasrada lakshadasha | dwithiya trutiyake entulakshada | chaturashashtisahasra kaligidharardha chintipudu || 59 || kAla vichAra of brahma dEvaru ----------------------------- 1. Chaturyuga = 1 divya yuga 2. 1000 divya yugAs = 12 hrs. of brahma dEvaru 3. 1000 divya yugAs = 12 hrs. of brahma dEvaru => 1000 * 43,20,000 MY = 432,00,00,000 MY = 12 hrs. of brahma dEvaru => 2000 divya yugAs = 1 Day (24 hrs.) of brahma dEvaru (1 dina kalpa) => 864,00,00,000 MY = 1 Day of brahma dEvaru mUradhikanAlvatthulakshada | lArumUreradadhikasAvira | Ereradu yugavarusha sankhyeya gaiyalinitahudu | sUri pacchise sAviradanA | nnOru mUvatteradukOti sa | rOruhAsanagidu divasavembaru vipashchitaru || 60 || shatadhrutige E divasagaLu trim | shatiyu mAsadwAdashAbdavu | shataveradaroLu sarvajEvOtpatti sthitilayavu | shrutismrutigaLu pELutihava | chyutage nimishavidendu sukhashA | shvatage pAsatiyembuvare brahmAdi divijaranu || 61 || 5. 30 Days of brahma dEvaru = 1 month of brahma dEvaru prabhAsa khAnda of skanda purANa specifies the names of these 30 days This info. has been collected from some other source. Its not mentioned in harikathAmrutasAra or its related commentary. The thirty Dina Kalpas of Brahma are: (1) svEta, (2) nIlAlOhita, (3) vAmadEva, (4) gathantara, (5) raurava, (6) prAna, (7) bruhat, (8) kandarpa, (9) sadyOtha, (10) EshaNa, (11) dhyAna, (12) sArasvata, (13) udAna, (14) garuda, (15) kaurma, (16) narasimha, (17) samAdhi, (18) agnEya, (19) vishnuja, (20) saura, (21) sOma, (22) bhAvana, (23) supuma, (24) vaikunta, (25) archisha, (26) vAli, (27) vairAja, (28) gauri, (29) mahEshwara, (30) paitra. 6. 360 days of brahma dEvaru = 1 year of brahma dEvaru 7. 100 years of brahma dEvaru = 1 brahma kalpa The following info. to an extent has been collected from the discourse of Sri Bannanje Govindacharya on Srimad bhAgavatha. kAla vichAra of manvantarAs ---------------------------- 1. brahma dEvAs hagalu (Day - 12 hrs.) is considered to be srushti kAla. 2. brahma dEvAs rAtri (Night - 12 hrs.) is considered to be praLaya kAla (Dina Pralaya). 3. brahma dEvAs hagalu is sub-divided among 14 manUs & they are referred to as manvantarAs. manUs are adhipatIs of these manvantaras. The following is the list of manUs in serial order and niyAmaka sriman nArAyaNa i) yajna - svAyambhuva Manu ii) vibhu - svArOchisha Manu iii) satyasEna - Uttama Manu iv) hari - tApasa Manu v) vaikunta - raivata Manu vi) ajita - chAkshusha Manu vii) vAmana - vaivasvata Manu viii) sArvabhauma - sAvarNi Manu ix) rushabha - dakshasAvarNi Manu x) vishvaksEna - brahma-sAvarNi Manu xi) dharmasetu - dharma-sAvarNi Manu xii) sudhAma - rRudra-sAvarNi Manu xiii) yOgeshvara - dEva-sAvarNi Manu xiv) bruhadbhanu - indra-sAvarNi Manu 4. The first manvantara is svAyambhu. 5. We are currently in vaivasvata manvantara Division of brahma dEvAs hagalu (1000 divya yugAs) among manvantarAs Since we have 14 manvantarAs, we need to divide 1000 divya yugAs with 14. => 1000 / 14 = 71 is Quotient & 6 is Remainder. 71 Divya Yugas = 71 * 43,20,000 = 30,67,20,000 MY & 6 Divya Yugas = 6 * 43,20,000 = 2,59,20,000 MY (Quotient) As we can see from above calculations, 1 manvantara is not exactly 71 divya yugAs or 30,67,20,000 MY, since we are left with a quotient of 6 divya yugAs or 2,59,20,000 MY. These 6 Divya yugas or 2,59,20,000 MY must be distributed among 14 Manvantaras. This is achieved the following way as explained by Sri Bannanje Govindacharyaru in his lectures on Srimad Bhagavatam. We divide 2,59,20,000 MY (quotient) into 14 portions of 18,50,000 MY. => 18,50,000 * 14 = 2,59,00,000 MY (20,000 MY short of 2,59,20,000 MY - We shall understand about remaining 20,000 MY within a short while) [Note : How did we arrive at the figure 18,50,000 MY is not explained by Sri Bannanje Acharyaru and I request learned scholars to throw some light on this. Sri Acharya simply says that we should make 14 portions of 18,50,000 MY] This means that the time period of each manvantara is 30,67,20,000 MY (71 Maha yugaas) + 18,50,000 MY = 30,85,70,000 MY After each manvantara, there is a manvantara pralaya for a short period of time and the 20,000 MY must be distributed among these manvantara pralayas. We must divide 20,000 MY into 13 portions, since, after the last manvantara there would be dina pralaya. This again leads to a problem as 20,000 MY cannot be divided into 13 equal portions. The solution is as follows: svAyambhu Manu (the first manu) is at a very higher level in Kaksha (10th kaksha - refer to tAratamya chart) and hence after this manvantara, the pralaya would be for 2000 MY. Now we are left with 18,000 MY which need to be divided among 12 manvantara pralayas. This is straight forward, i.e. all the other manvantara pralayas are for 1500 MY. A more detailed explanation of Brahma Devara Hagalu : As seen earlier, during 1 Day (Dina) of Brahma, there would be Srushti & Pralaya. Srushti starts with svAyambhuva manu which spans for 30,85,70,000. svAyambhuva 30,85,70,000 MY Pralaya 2,000 MY svArOchisha 30,85,70,000 MY Pralaya 1,500 MY uttama 30,85,70,000 MY Pralaya 1,500 MY tApasa 30,85,70,000 MY Pralaya 1,500 MY raivata 30,85,70,000 MY Pralaya 1,500 MY chAkshusha 30,85,70,000 MY Pralaya 1,500 MY vaivasvata 30,85,70,000 MY Pralaya 1,500 MY sAvarNi 30,85,70,000 MY Pralaya 1,500 MY dakshasAvarNi 30,85,70,000 MY Pralaya 1,500 MY brahmasAvarNi 30,85,70,000 MY Pralaya 1,500 MY dharmasAvarNi 30,85,70,000 MY Pralaya 1,500 MY rudrasAvarNi 30,85,70,000 MY Pralaya 1,500 MY dEvasAvarNi 30,85,70,000 MY Pralaya 1,500 MY indrasAvarNi 30,85,70,000 MY -------------------- Total 432,00,00,000 MY -------------------- After 432,00,00,000 MY, Dina Pralaya starts which also indicates brahma dEvAs rAtri (night). kAla vichAra of Sriman nArAyaNa ------------------------------- As already seen 1 day of brahma dEvA equals 864,00,00,000 MY (864 man years) => 30 days of Brahma Devaru equals 259,20,00,00,000 MY => 1 year of Brahma Devaru equals 311040,00,00,000 MY and => 100 years of Brahma Devaru equals 31104000,00,00,000 MY 100 years of Brahma Devaru is as if opening the eye lid for Sriman Naarayana. shrI jagannAtha dAsaru say this is only aupachArika, just to explain what it would mean to Sriman nArAyaNa AdimadhyAntagaLu illada | mAdhavagidupachAravendu ru | gAdivEdapurANagaLu pELuvuvu nithyadali | mOdamayanAnugrahava sam | pAdisi ramA brahma rudrEn | drAdigaLu tamma tamma padaviyanaidi sukhisuvaru || 62 || Some more points of interest ---------------------------- tApasa Manu is Almighty Himself svAyambhu Manu is at 10th Kaksha vaivasvata Manu is at 16th Kaksha & all the remaining 11 Manus are at 19th Kaksha (karmaja dEvathAs) --- Pl. excuse me for any mistakes. They are entirely mine and let me know of any corrections. bAlakana kalabhashe janani | kELi sukhabaduvante lakshmI | lOla bhaktharu mAduthiha samsthutige higguvanu | tALa tannavaralli mAdvava | hELanava heddaiva vidurana | Alayadi pAlundu kurupana mAnavane konda || [harikathAmrutasAra karuNAsandhi sandhi - 2 padya - 14] In Hari Guru Seva Prasanna Krishna ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 2 Sun, 23 Jan 2000 05:01:03 PST " Arun Simha " <arun_simha UNSUBSCRIBE ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 3 Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:34:44 +0530 napsrao <napsrao Re: Some observations Friends, I was very happy to see Mr. K Thadpathri's voice of sanity and balance in the welter of highly personalised and emotional debate. As the Director seems to have decided already that no further points are likely to emerge on the philosophical issues involved, I respect his decision. But I would still like to quote Ishavasya Upanishad and its simple translation to justify the unavoidable necessity to work towards a final Siddhantha on such issues, instead of finding either oversimplified arguments like freedom of choice of beliefs, or sweeping the real points involved under the proverbial carpet. VMS as a body should address itself to the principles underlying such debates and organise frank, fair and valid debates for Thathva Nirnaya rather than consider victory or defeat in debate. The following extracts are from a book " Ishavasya Upanishath " with Bhashya along with Kannada translation published by Sri Raghavendrashrama , Bangalore. Manthra No. 9. " Andhamthamah pravishanthi ye avidyamupaasathe thatho bhuya iva the' thamo ya u vidyaayaam rathah " Bhashya - " Anyathopaasakaa ye thu thamondham yanthyasamshayam. Thatho'dhikamiva vyaktham yaanthi. Theshaaam anindakaah thasmadyathaaswaroopam thu naaraaayanamanaamayam ayatharthasya nindaam cha " Manthra No. 10. " Anyadevaahurvidyayaa anyadaahuravidyayaa ithi shushruma dheeraanaam yenasthadvyaachachakshire " Manthra No. 11. " Vidyaam chaavidyaam cha yasthavedobhayam saha avidyayaa mruthyum theerthvaa vidyayaamruthamashnuthe " Bhashya - Ye viduh saha sajjanaah, The' nindayaa aytharthasya dukhaajnaanadiroopinah dukhaajnaanaadisamtheernaah sukhajnaanaadiroopinah yathaarthasya parijnaanaath sukhajnaanaadiroopathamm yaanthi " Those who worship the Parathathva in a contrary manner (vipareetha), they will attain Andhanthamas. Those who are engaged only in getting the correct Jnana (Yathartha) and will not reject incorrect Jnana (Ayathartha) will attain even greater Andhanthamas. Both Ayathartha Jnana and absence of rejection of Ayathartha Jnana lead to Thamas. Therefore, one should obtain both the correct Jnana of the Supreme Being, who is free from all defects and should also reject such incorrect Jnana that causes attribution of defects to the Lord. It is stated by the Jnanis that by (Avidya) rejection of Anayathaajnana, one gets rid of Anishta and gets bliss by (Vidya) Yathartha Jnana. Rejection of Ayathartha Jnana leads to removal of Dukha (called Mruthyu here), while acquisition of Yathartha Jnana, one attains Mukthi or freedom from bondage (Amrutha). NAPSRao __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 4 Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:29:50 -0400 Balaji Hebbar <bhebbar Re: Digest Number 264 Dear shrI Balakrishna Rao: I stand humbled by your kind words. However, all credit should rightfully go to that late great savant, the Rt. Hon'ble Prof. Gururaja Bhat. He was a superb academic, an archeologist, a historian of religion and an authority on MalabAr culture. Hon'ble Pt. Bannanje Govindacharya has great regard for him and took over as Director of the Institute of Indian Studies founded by the late professor at KaDiyALI, UDupi. I remember the time when Prof. Bhat went (sometimes walking literally for miles in the hot humid MalabAr climate) to each and every temple in South Kanara and photographed all the deities and wrote extensive notes on their origin, period etc. For his work, the University of Heidelberg in Germany was planning to not only invite him to occupy the chair of Indology but eventually award him a D.Litt. degree. Of course, tragedy struck and he was snatched away from us. It was he who brought up the very pertinent point that the BRhaspati (Guru) and vAyu cult existed among the MalabAr brahmins. Hence a connection between UDupi KRShNa and GuruvAyUr KRShNa. In the case of the latter, Guru (BRhaspati) and vAyu established GuruvAyUr KRShNa (as the local legend says) and in the case of the former, it is vAyu who became a Guru (i.e. ShrImad Ananda TIrtha) and established UDupi KRShNa (also as per local legend). In addition, both were BAlakRShNas. It was an important discovery which caused many an academic to view in askance the local legends. Pt. Bannanje has never believed in the Malpe miracle theory of ShrImadAcArya obtaining KRShna from a boat. Neither does the Sumadhvavijaya make mention of it. Prof. Bhatt's discovery only reinforced these. As you have rightly pointed out that we must never forget the MalabAr/TauLava origins of shRImadAcArya, but it is also equally important to bear in mind that it is the illustrious pontiffs and paNDits of the Deccan hinterland " Deshastha " MAdhva MaThas who have been the real vanguards and defenders of the faith over the centuries. Other than HH Vijayadhvaja and VAdirAja TIrthas, there are none amongst the TauLavas who came even close to the hinterland scholars in terms to calibre and quality of erudition. It is they who periodically and systematically measured their intellectual swords with their Advaitic counterparts to produce metaphysical masterpieces of a superb quality. If it were not for them, (other than the Grace of God factor), our beloved Dvaita for all purposes would have probably remained a MalabAr metaphysic. regards, Hari-vAyu smaraNa B.N.Hebbar __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 5 Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:25:12 -0500 KANEKAL RE: Some observations Dear Fellow Madhvas and Keshava Rao, It was my intention to cool down and not further flames ... and I do hold Mr Keshava Tadipatri in high regard. He wrote: > " Keshava Tadipatri " <meerakesav > > " hatred " and " intolerance " . What shocked me most is Sri Kanekal's >remarks that also went into the same groove. In addition he remarked > [....# my earlier posting (SK) >>I do find it extremely disturbing that Vivekanda and other were >>regarded with what was tantamount to hatred. > .... (SK)] >Is there nothing in between " treating someone as God " and " hatred " ? It was not just me who felt this way. There was another posting - i have forgotten the author's name - which used these very words " hatred " . According to Mr. Nataraj's orignal posting ( and i quoting from memory here) he asked his sister to " throw away " Vivekanda's photo which to me seems like a visceral response. > >If " not treating someone as God " is tantamount to hatred, then I >must confess that I hate all my dearest friends as I do not deem >any of my dear friends as a deity. > >Let any one worship any god(s). What is wrong in giving Madhva >position and recommendation to those who want to follow the >Madhva sampradaya? How can statements like " show us some pramANa >from sadAgamAs and we will accept " be taken as intolerance? The The intolerance shows up in vehemence and the stridency of statements by some which i still hold to be tanatmount to an assault on Mr. Potti >real irony is that one who said " sorry " was labelled intolerant >and an extremist and the one who refused to apologize was >sympathized as a " hurt one " . More important is the fact that >this list is supposed to be " Vishvamadhvasangha " >and not " vishva Hindu cultural organization " or " Association >of religions of the world " . In the same context, regarding the True this is vishwa Madhva sangha but it must be borne in mind to the other religionists we are all hindu (devil worshippers to paraphrase the s.baptists) and therefore target of conversion...etc. It is to state the obvious that we are (in the US) living in alien culture. Our children are accosted by others (see an earlier posting by Balaji Hebbar) and they have to defend themselves. This and other such considerations should make us pause and use temperate and dispassionate language when addressing philosophical issues. Whatever happened to " ekam SAt ... " etc ? PLease do not construe this to mean that I am condoning anything and everything but just emphasize the " ultimate truth " is not easily graspable - really one cant do better than the orginal and repeat " Truth is one though the wise call it by different names " . Also to say that one has arrived at " the truth " immediately brings to an end - jijnyasa surely ? Since this issue, I have seen at least four persons wanting out of this list. That is no coincidence and the interests of madhva community are not best served by people leaving. Again I hasten to add that this is not to be construed to mean that we should water down the philosophical principles to not offend others. My own solution is to state our doctrine in as unambigiuous a fashion as possible and leave it at that. Again issues of faith and philosophy as far as possible may be kept separate. Thus is indeed posiible and earlier postings about sAkshi,Jijnyasa ... etc are proof of this. with best regards to one and all, Shri Kanekal ====================================================================== Shri Kanekal phone: (301)286-6517 Code 696 FAX : (301)286-1648 Goddard Space Flight Center Greenbelt Road Greenbelt, MD 20771 ====================================================================== __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 6 Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:42:41 +0530 napsrao <napsrao [Fwd: Vishnu SahasranAma] Dear friends, I am forwarding a copy of my earlier message for which responses were received from the following gentlemen. 1. " Sripi " Sripi - 4 sets - Includes M Bheemasenarao " MADHUSUDAN BHEEMASENARAO " madhu74 2. AsifJah 3. " Bhargiri, Chetan " <chetan.bhargiri. As already advised pls advise your correct postal address and arrange to remit the cost of the four volumes $ 80, plus $ 20 for postage (costs around Rs 800 by regd post form India) - Total $ 100. The books are available Ex.Vidyapeeta and will be shipped as soon as your confirmation reg. remittance of the money is advised. Those who have not yet responded to my earlier message, may pls do so similarly without any further delay, by advising their addresses and remitting the costs. NAPSRao myself, my friend Shri Madhusudhana Bheemasena Rao, and my cousin Deepak Katte. [This message contained attachments] __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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