Guest guest Posted January 30, 2003 Report Share Posted January 30, 2003 Prahlad, Srimad Madhwacharya has clearly stated that women and sudras are not eligible to read vedas.If u cannot accept this,hope ur against Madhwa philosophy. Vadiraj On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 Prahlad Kulkarni wrote : >Namaskara, > >I agree to the Carbon dating inaccuracy but not to the statement: > > " Thus, Vedas, Ramayana and Gita confer authority on sudras to >possess and read all these. " >The above statement is not against Madhwa philosophy. >If we look at the essence of the artice, which conveys prohibition of casteism is indeed in >agreement with the essence of Vedas and Bhagavadgita. >Lord Sri Krishna says “Chaturvarnyam mayaa sristam gunkarma vibhajanah”. It is to be observed that >the division here is based on 'Gunas' and it has nothing to do with caste. Unfortunatley, in >English, there is no synonym for sanskrit word 'Varna'. 'Varna' is not 'Caste' which is a >classification based on birth! There is no such mention in Bhagavadgita. Depending on the nature >of the person, that person can be called Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya or Sudra. For example, if a >family has four sons, one of them may be Brahmana, if he is more inclined towards intellectual >activities (towards knowing about Brahma). One who is interested in knowing about Brahma Jnana is >a Brahmana. Other person may be Kshatriya, oriented more towards physical activities and >protecting the house, other person may be Vaishya, oriented towards handling the day-to-day >business of the family, and the last might be Sudra, interested in doing service. >It's the dominant presence of one quality and subtle presence of all other three qualities makes a >'Jiva' belong to that 'Varna' whose presence is predominant. >As we know that Jnana, Bhakti and Vairagya (Knowledge, Devotion and Detachment) alone can help us >attaining Moksha, it paramounts to saying that none other than one belonging to 'Brahmana' caste, >is eligible for Moksha. Looking from the caste perspective, the Lord who preached Bhagavadgita and >the reciepient Arjuna, both are not Brahmins by caste! >It's the duty of the learned in Vedas to impart the knowledge to the aspirant who is interested in >knowing Brahman. It is really unfortunate that since so many years, people belonging to Brahmana >'caste' have mis-interpreted the Vedas to their advantage and created the caste based society! >I understand that it's a hard paradigm shift to accept this, but that's the true spirit of Vedas. >Just think about it! A saatvic soul who desperately wants to know about Brahman cannot be deprived >of the knowledge just because that soul is not born in a Brahmana caste! > >Regards, >Prahlad Kulkarni > > >--- Vadiraj <skvadiraj wrote: > > Namskara, > > > > Certainly not.It is not interesting rather it is quite > > misleading. > > The person who has written this article has just taken the literal > > translation out of whatever he has read(Vedas,Manusmriti).Just > > read the following statement which is enough to say the article is > > not worth reading: > > > > " Thus, Vedas, Ramayana and Gita confer authority on sudras to > > possess and read all these. " > > > > The above statement is against Madhwa philosophy. > > > > This article definitely increases our mithya jnana if we think > > it's good and may lead to andan tamas.It's better if we ignore > > these articles. > > > > > > Vadiraj > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 29 Jan 2003 Rajaraman Nagarajan wrote : > > >The articles seems interesting, however we must > > >keep in mind about the accuracy of the period > > >they are stating i.e 5000 bc , obtained by > > >some artifacts and calculated through carbon dating. > > >Off late Carbon Dating has not been found accurate. > > > > > >--- Madhusudan Bheemasenarao <madhusudanb > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > skumar [skumar] > > > > Wednesday, January 29, 2003 11:13 PM > > > > Vedas, Hindu scriptures prohibit casteism > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I think you might find the following story > > > > interesting! > > > > > > > > Vedas, Hindu scriptures prohibit casteism > > > > > > > > > > >http://news.sify.com/cgi-bin/sifynews/news/content/news_fullstory_v2.jsp?articl\ e_oid=12564633 > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Sharat > > > > > > > > > > > > nAham kartA hariH kartA tatpUjA karmachaakhilam.h| > > > > taThaapi matkR^itaa pUja tatprasaadhEna naanyaThaa| > > > > tadbhakti tadphalam.h mahyam.h tatprasaadaat.h punaH > > > > punaH | > > > > karmanyaasO harAvevam.h vishNOsthR^iptikaraH sadhA > > > > || > > > > > > > > " I am not the doer, shri Hari is the doer, all the > > > > actions that I do are His worship. Even then, the > > > > worship I do is through His grace and not otherwise. > > > > That devotion and the fruits of the actions that > > > > come to me are due to His recurring grace " > > > > If one always practices to do actions with a > > > > dedicated spirit to Hari, in this way, it pleases > > > > Vishnu. > > > > --- Quoted by Sri madhvAchArya in > > > > GitA tAtparya > > > > -- > > > > To send an empty E-mail (without subject > > > > and body info.) to > > > > - > > > > -- > > > > Visit VMS at http://www.madhva.org > > > > View the latest events in the US by selecting the > > > > 'Events' link > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2003 Report Share Posted January 31, 2003 It was not an argument for ur kind information.It was a discussion and some good info was provided by people like Mr.KrishnaKadri. On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 Ramadasa Hari wrote : > >Arguing about who is eligible to read the >Vedas and who gets Moksha first etc...are not going >help any of us in our individual spiritual >pursuits. We should leave this activity to >those who are supremely qualified to do so.... > > > >--- Krishna K <kadirik wrote: > > > > > > Prahlad Kulkarni [kprahlad] > > > > > Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:17 PM > > > > > Namaskara, > > > > > I do not have a formal learning in Vedas to > > initiate a > > > discussion on Vedanta about casteism. > > > My opinion is purely a reflection of my listening > > to the > > > cassette 'Giteya Belaku' by Sri Bannanje > > > Govindacharya. > > > With all due respects to what Krishna has > > mentioned in his > > > e-mail, if any of the members of this > > > list happen to be in Bangalore, should visit or > > talk to Sri > > > Bannanje Govindacharya, if they are > > > interested in knowing the Truth. > > > > If somebody is interested in knowing the truth, > > there's a better way. > > Pls take the verses and quotes in my original mail > > that are given by > > Srimad Acharya in his works and check if they get to > > the same > > translation that I have given. If it doesn't pls > > point out. If it does, > > check with others if it is OK. If it is, then check > > with Sri Bannanje if > > he is giving a figurative meaning and in case he is, > > ask the need for a > > figurative meaning, forsaking the straightforward > > meaning. And ask him > > for a pramANa to check if figurative meanings are > > upheld by our > > illustrious Acharya and his commentators somewhere. > > If he has pramANa > > for every figurative meaning he gives (like Sri > > Raghavendra Tirtha who > > refers to Aitareya Upanishad's 'dasha' iti sarvaM to > > hold that the > > puruSha-sUkta's 'atyatiShThat.h dashAN^gulam.h' > > refers to the Lord > > Hari's surpassing this world by an infinite amount, > > instead of just 'ten > > fingers'), well and good. Never assume that he or > > anybody will have a > > pramANa just because they have furnished pramANAs in > > the past. > > > > This is a process that will introduce one to 'formal > > learning' in my > > opinion. This will also help us remind ourselves > > that the Purnabodha, > > Srimad Anandatirtha is our Acharya, and not others, > > who are there only > > to help us. Sri Jayatirtha, Sri Vyasatirtha, Sri > > Vadiraja tirtha, Sri > > Raghavendra tirtha and so many others have always > > quoted and > > cross-referenced Srimad Anandatirtha himself; for, > > he alone can be > > 'shuddhaM pramANaM sa me' (for me, He is a pramaNA > > by himself) as said > > by Sri Jayatirtha in Nyayasudha. > > > > All said and done, I doubt, though I haven't heard > > that cassette, that > > you have misinterpreted Sri Bannanje. Or that you > > have taken his words > > in isolation. > > > > > of it. That's why Sri Madhwacharya had > > > taken the avatara to help us understand the right > > meaning. > > > Let us have the spirit of finding the correct > > answer and not > > > accept what we believe is right. > > > > The last line cuts both ways. > > > > Regards, > > Krishna > > > > > > > Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus. > >nAham kartA hariH kartA tatpUjA karmachaakhilam.h| >taThaapi matkR^itaa pUja tatprasaadhEna naanyaThaa| >tadbhakti tadphalam.h mahyam.h tatprasaadaat.h punaH punaH | >karmanyaasO harAvevam.h vishNOsthR^iptikaraH sadhA || > > " I am not the doer, shri Hari is the doer, all the actions that I >do are His worship. Even then, the worship I do is through His >grace and not otherwise. That devotion and the fruits of the >actions that come to me are due to His recurring grace " >If one always practices to do actions with a dedicated spirit to >Hari, in this way, it pleases Vishnu. > --- Quoted by Sri madhvAchArya in GitA tAtparya >-- >To send an empty E-mail (without subject and body >info.) to - >-- >Visit VMS at http://www.madhva.org >View the latest events in the US by selecting the 'Events' link >-- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2003 Report Share Posted February 1, 2003 Dear Sir, I will put some thing which I know about this subject. " Here caste means probably caste(varna) of jeeva swaroopa,not the body " . As a social system since it is not possible to determine swaroopa- varna,we follow body-caste. But if it is possible determine once swaroopa by his deeds and acts definately he is eligible for study of highest text " this what Acharya Madhwa mean as per Mr.Bannanje. This is only my opinion baseed on what I heard from cassets of Mr.Bannanje and few of the texts I read. I am in infant stage on my study of this great jnana bhandara. Kind pranaamaas all adhyatma bhandhus, Lakshmi narayana Rao, Qatar. - Prahlad Kulkarni <kprahlad Friday, January 31, 2003 10:51 pm RE: Re: Interesting Article > --- Krishna K <KADIRIK wrote: > > > > > > Prahlad Kulkarni [kprahlad] > > > Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:17 PM > > > > > Namaskara, > > > All said and done, I doubt, though I haven't heard that > cassette, that > > you have misinterpreted Sri Bannanje. Or that you have taken his > words> in isolation. > > To prove that the concept of 'Caste System' has not been > misinterpreted by me or understood it in > isolation, I would like to quote a real life example exactly as > narrated by Sri Bannanje in his > cassete 'Giteya Belaku'. > > English translation of what Sri Bannanje narrated in Kannada: > " A non-Brahmin student approached Pejawar Mutt Swamiji at > Bangalore Vidya Peetha and asked for > admission in Vidya Peetha to study Shastras as he is deeply > interested in learning it. I also > happened to be present there when the student approached. Even > though Swamiji knew that he > deserves to be taught, Swamiji had to reluctantly say 'NO' to him > so as to please the other > 'Brahmin students'. I offered the student to teach Shastras. He > started learning Shastras from me > and he was doing really good. Everything was going smoothly but he > was very disturbed by the fact > that he is not made to sit with the Brahmin students while taking > Prasada in temple premises. He > was also subjected to other mockery which made him feel so > insulted that he decided to leave the > place. Thus, I lost a very good student. " > > The above incident clearly depicts that Sri Bannanje does not > support the _caste system by Birth_. > > > This is a process that will introduce one to 'formal learning' > in my > > opinion. This will also help us remind ourselves that the > Purnabodha,> Srimad Anandatirtha is our Acharya, and not others, > who are there only > > to help us. Sri Jayatirtha, Sri Vyasatirtha, Sri Vadiraja > tirtha, Sri > > Raghavendra tirtha and so many others have always quoted and > > cross-referenced Srimad Anandatirtha himself; for, he alone can be > > 'shuddhaM pramANaM sa me' (for me, He is a pramaNA by himself) > as said > > by Sri Jayatirtha in Nyayasudha. > > I agree without any second thought that Srimad Anandatirtha is our > only Guru. > 'Acharyaha srimadacharyaha santhu mey janma janmani' > Without the grace of Sri Hari and Vayu we cannot obtain Moksha. > Having said that, let us face some real facts. In this age of > Kaliyuga, with alpa Jnana, alpa > Buddhi etc. coupled with the 'Job' we have to do for living, does > not leave us with sufficient > time to understand and interpret the monumental works of Srimad > Acharya and his disciples. > I being a layman, to begin with, depend on the 'Pravachanas' given > by learned scholars of our > times. Sri Bannanje is also one among them, as he has aptly been > called 'Vidyavachaspati' by the > learned. So, whatever he says, should be taken seriously. > However, I think any further discussion about this is futile until > what Sri Krishna K has written > is presented before Sri Bannanje. Or anyone in the list who has > more proofs against what Sri > Krishna K has presented. > > I have seen that a lot of exchange of emails have been happening > and personally I have benefitted > a lot from some of the emails by the scholars. Some of them feel > that the very nature of numerous > exchange of emails tells that the subject matter is very > important. Nevertheless, I agree to Sri > Keshava Rao that this list is for discussion and we being the part > of the Madhwa family should > discuss anything related to Madhwa Philosophy in a spirit of > harmony. > > However, for a moment, let us think how the 'Caste system' is > going to affect our lives. If a > Shudra by Birth, thinks that he does not have the authority to > read and understand Vedas, there is > no reason why that person should be disappointed. As quoted by Sri > Krishna K in his earlier > e-mails, Sri Vedavyasa composed 'Mahabharata' for that reason. > 'Mahabharata' is the essense of all the four Vedas, and hence it > has been called 'Panchama Veda'. > (Fifth Veda) It is also said about 'Mahabharata' that whatever is > not there in 'Mahabharata' > cannot be found anywhere! It is the summum bonum, quintessence of > all Vedas. > A Saatvic soul, which is 'Moksha Yogya' can attain Moksha if they > cultivate Bhakti and try to > understand the Supreme through 'Mahabharata' and the Puranas. It > is to be understood that Grace of > God alone gives 'Moksha' and Bhakti alone is responsible for Grace > of God. (Bhakti being defined > by Sri Acharya as 'Mahatma gyana purvaka sudrudaha snehaha iti > bhaktirithi proktaha') > The ultimate interest of a Sadhaka should be towards knowing the > spiritualstic interpretation of > Vedas (Apara Vidya) and not ritualistic interpretation of Vedas > alone(Para Vidya). > 'Para Vidya' does not lead one to Moksha Sadhana. > Whatever Jnana we strive to acquire either through Shravana-Manana- > Dhyana and discussions in this > list, should help towards increasing the Jnana, Bhakti and > Vairagya otherwise such Jnana is only > 'Bandhaka' to 'Moksha'. > > Regards, > Prahlad > > > > Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus. > > nAham kartA hariH kartA tatpUjA karmachaakhilam.h| > taThaapi matkR^itaa pUja tatprasaadhEna naanyaThaa| > tadbhakti tadphalam.h mahyam.h tatprasaadaat.h punaH punaH | > karmanyaasO harAvevam.h vishNOsthR^iptikaraH sadhA || > > " I am not the doer, shri Hari is the doer, all the actions that I > do are His worship. Even then, the worship I do is through His > grace and not otherwise. That devotion and the fruits of the > actions that come to me are due to His recurring grace " > If one always practices to do actions with a dedicated spirit to > Hari, in this way, it pleases Vishnu. > --- Quoted by Sri madhvAchArya in GitA tAtparya > -- > To send an empty E-mail (without subject and body > info.) to - > -- > Visit VMS at http://www.madhva.org > View the latest events in the US by selecting the 'Events' link > -- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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