Dan/Conditioning...

[Guest guest]

Dear Dan,

 

> D: I'm simply where and who I am. That's enough, thanks.

> No need here for experienced or inexperienced meditators defining

> what should and shouldn't be " my " state :-)

 

But isn't Krishnamurti suggesting a similar kind of " should " in those

six articles? (Again, I haven't looked at them in a couple of months,

so this is really a question.)

 

> D: How do you tell when you are more or less aware?

 

I'm not sure whether you're asking for a definition of " aware " or asking

literally how I recognize the state.

 

If you're asking about a definition:

 

When I am meditating, or trying to, and suddenly realize that for the

last five minutes I wasn't -- at that moment of realization, I'm " aware. "

With practice, that condition can be prolonged and made habitual.

 

If you're asking literally how I know when this condition occurs, I don't

know, just like I don't know how I know when I'm hot or cold or hungry.

I think this is a question for neuroscientists.

 

> How do you tell if you're having a thought?

 

In the context of my last message, " having a thought " referred to the common

meditation experience (I think it's common, am I wrong?) of watching thoughts

bubble up into awareness from a sort of ocean. " Having no thoughts " referred to

the

meditation experience of seeing the rate of production of those

" thoughts " slow down and eventually stop.

 

I think this is what people most often mean when they say " my thoughts

stopped. " (I don't have much evidence for thinking this.) Most often, I think,

they were having an experience like the one I just described.

 

(When discussing these topics, I think it's helpful to try to define terms

this way, operationally and phenomenologically. In other words, try to

define terms in the form, " X " is an experience that feels like " Y " which happens

when you do " Z " .)

 

> When exactly does a thought come into being

> and when does it leave?

 

Again, I was using the word " thought " in the context of the previous kind

of experience. A lot of this conversation depends on definitions .

 

In that context, with that definition, the answer is self-evident: the thought

is seen to come and go.

 

If you want to define " thought " more broadly -- which is fine with me --

it will become more difficult to answer the question.

 

I am skeptical that anybody, even somebody in Ramana Maharshi's state,

has conscious access to all levels of mental functioning. So I suspect it's

impossible for anybody to know when " thoughts " stop and start, if we define

" thought " broadly. Some " thoughts " probably chug along in subterranean

stop-and-go fashion for weeks or months or lifetimes -- I don't know.

 

> Where exactly is a thought occurring?

 

I think this question has no answer. It's like asking the color of a

logarithm.

Logarithms don't have colors, and thoughts don't have locations.

 

On the other hand, in meditation experiences, thoughts are sometimes seen

as occuring in perceived locations, just as logarithms can have colors in

synesthesic

experiences, and it may be useful to notice this -- I don't know. In some

schools of

yoga it's considered very significant to visualize a blue dot of light near the

third eye

location. Does it matter? I have no idea.

 

> Essentially I agree. However, I do question whether ideas about

> enlightenment aren't thoughts similar to other thought, and whether

> opinions and concepts about defining characteristics aren't irrelevant

> regarding the original nature of awareness. ;-)

 

I would say, yes we can find similarities. But we can also find differences.

" Compare and contrast " is a workhorse in school

assignments because it harnesses so fruitfully to almost anything.

 

But as for irrelevant -- well, I'd prefer to ask whether these ideas are useful

to

seekers who want to recognize and abide in naked awareness.

 

Perhaps yes, because:

 

1. Such concepts help them find a teacher.

 

2. Such concepts help motivate them to find that state.

 

3. Such concepts help prevent them from deluding themselves.

 

Love,

 

Laura