Digest Number 30

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>Message: 8

> Sat, 19 Feb 2000 13:43:37 -0800

> Tim Gerchmez <core

>James/Re: out-of-body-travel...

>

>

>Dear James,

>

>To me, the traditional idea of " out of body travel " is profoundly

>dualistic. Do we have separate " souls, " and is there even a body to

> " travel out of? " (normally the body is considered an extension of the mind,

>the " gross body " and the " subtle body " ).

>

>If there is such a thing as out of body travel, it comes from the fact that

>we (as awareness) are simultaneously everywhere and nowhere, and thus can

> " be anywhere. " Awareness can attach itself to anything, but ultimately

> " out of body travel, " from the standpoint of nondualism, has to be looked

>at as a misnomer -- there is nowhere to travel to. The mind (subtle body)

>may be involved, but from a more " pure " nondual outlook, there seems about

>as much purpose to attempting out of body travel as there would be to stand

>on one's head and spit wooden nickels :-).

>

>With Love,

>

>Tim

 

Hello Tim,I don't know if I ever really dialogued with you before but I

definitely know who you are from Jerry's nondualitysalon and have visited

your site..Hey you are a good looking guy too ;-). I have seen a lot of your

prattle..I like that word " prattle " Brother Sandeep turned me on the

" prattle " ..Anyways the topic of discussion here on the astral realm

stuff,shannigans possibly,imagination,a stumbling block to something

possibly more real..something closer to true self,that something possibly

more refined and just the general confusion and various data and definitions

....anyways I would like to talk about this a little and perhaps you might be

of help to me as well as others here.I would like to begin though with

challenging you from your words:If there is such a thing as out of body

travel, it comes from the fact that

>we (as awareness) are simultaneously everywhere and nowhere, and thus can

> " be anywhere. " Awareness can attach itself to anything, but ultimately

> " out of body travel, " from the standpoint of nondualism, has to be looked

>at as a misnomer -- there is nowhere to travel to.

 

 

I believe the words are there Tim but I don't believe you really understand

them and if you did it might be helpful for many people if you would

elaborate on out of body travel from the standpoint of nondualism has to be

looked at as a misnomer--there is no where to go..I agree with you that

awareness can attach it self to anything there fore you contradict your self

by saying Out of body experience is nondualistic...I think it would be

better to try to understand why peoples awareness is focused on out of body

travel which is obviously real to me because it has been an experience " a

reality " and my attention was n't the least bit on trying to attain

oobe's.So Tim the question about the subtle body as you refer to it as -this

would also be the same thing refered to as the astral Body or subtle Psychic

realm if you are talking from the verbage of the Big Kahuna Pyschologist

such as Ken Wilber correct? And then we have folks like Gurdjieff and many

of the early christian and even today Gnostics and Easterners,Most certainly

Tibetans who understand that the astral body is actually something

physical,and etheric body generated by the energy of an individual life

force..There are numerous stories of various yogis who have attained the

" Rainbow Body " ..So my point here is there is obviously this reality how can

it be dualistic?Would n't it be helpful to understand what are refered to as

Bardos and perhaps prattle on from that perspective?What is Nondualism from

dualism.It is not enough that people prattle on with words like

nonduality.Some people need to learn to walk before they run. We are not all

as adept or as big as Kahuna Ramana Maharshi " I am " can simple mean I am a

Bucket of shit.Isn't it good enough to try to help others and my self by

simply asking " what is the problem? " What is this?What does this mean? Hey I

can appreciate yours and others Big Kahuna nonduality reality if that is a

reality for you?Intellectually it may be but is this real to you? Is this

your reality? It has been said that not many people are there and not many

will be and the wheel of Birth and death is imminent for most.

 

I mean if you look at what you call the purest nondual outlook that it self

is a fantasy..Taint many people on this planet who are there or even care to

understand this..We be to busy caught up in the healing game and until the

healing is done you can talk pure nondual outlook but the majority of people

just ain't going to hear it.Oh I imagine many,many can hear it

intellectually but thats about it,thats all.The thing and the word are not

always the thing.People are better starting out with where they are and

dealing with their own personal crap then to run around saying " I am " before

they ever ask " who am I " ..This isnt just a word thing it is a constant

practice of attention and intention " who am I "

Advaita misses the boat the same way that Christianity does as well as

Buddhism does when the " who am I's " and the bowings and the Mea Culpas

become a mechanical thing,some thing uttered and not understood or

practiced.There is something viable,something so important as it relates to

healing and growth of the human psyche as it relates to those words

(trikaya)Nirmanakaya,Sambhogkaya and Dharmakaya.It would probably do very

well for many if you could give some insight as to what these three bodies

of Buddha refer to.What do they mean....Why are there three bodies? When

Buddha said there are some whos eyes are not totally covered with dust that

they would understand the Dharmakaya but there are some who are not, then

this would mean that it is probably important to understand what these other

two bodies are.I will just share this excerpt from Ken Wilber and you can

elaborate on it if you care but it does clearly show there are different

paths for different individuals,different methods of meditation and

different or various goals all for the same reason and that being for

personal transformation and the renewing of the mind by the mind and the

walk is from the Carnal man to the astral to the mental to the Causal.I

would like to hear some responses from others as to what they know or

understand and experience as it relates to these 4 bodies of man/woman

spirit individual and here now is my famous frequently parroted excerpt from

Ken Wilber from his Book " Atman Project " ..I'd like to hear other comments:

 

[Page 112 " Atman Project " 'Meditation and the Unconscious'

 

Before discussing what happens in meditation,however,it is important to

realize that not all schools of meditation aim for the same general realm of

consciousness.Rather,as we have already suggested in the previous chapters

the transpersonal and superconscious realms really break down into several

different levels (low high subtle.low and high causal,etc). Very few

religions are aware of all of these distinctions,and thus many have more or

less 'specialized " in one level or another.Hence,meditative practices

themselves break down generally into three major classes (cf. Bubba Free

John)

 

The first is the Nirmanakaya class,which deals with bodily or typhonic

energies and their transmutation into lower subtle region,culminating at the

Sahashara.This includes hatha Yoga,Kundalini Yoga,kriya yoga,pranayama, and

particulary all forms of tantric yoga.The goal of Nirmanakaya class,as I

mentioned,is the Sahashara,the crown chakra,and it is exemplified by

Patanjali.

 

The second is the Sambhogakaya class,which deals with high-subtle

regions,and aims for the seven (or ten) inner spheres of bliss and audible

realization secreted within and beyond the Sahashara.

 

This includes Nada Yoga and Shabd yoga and is exemplified by Kirpal Singh.

 

The third is the Dharmakaya class,which deals with the causal regions.It

operates through neither tantric energy manipulation nor subtle light and

sound absorption,but rather through inquiry into the causal field of

consciousness itself,Inquiry into I-ness or seperate self sense,even in and

through the transcendent Witness of the causal region,until all forms of

subject object dualism are uprooted.This class is exemplified by Sri Ramana

Maharshi,Da Free John,Zen Buddhism,and Vedanta Hinduism,among others. At the

terminal point of each path,one can fall into the prior Suchness of all

realms,the Svabhavikakaya,although this is both easier and more likely the

higher the path one initially adopts.]

 

Tim or others Perhaps you might have some insight to share on Wilbers

verbage and and what you understand .?

Oms,Shaloms,Namastes and deep bows,Hallejuhahs,Praise the Lords.Maranathas

and Mea culpas,Microcosmic orbits and good sex too,Oh and love Alan because

I love to be loved.And thank you Laura for your superb site and work,Alan

/community/ContemplativEclectic

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