Doer, Non-doer. Freewill or just here for the ride?

[Guest guest]

Another thing that I have failed to get a clear answer on is the question

about freewill.

 

Are we here just as witnesses, observers and nothing we do influences any

worldly outcome as suggested by Ramana and Nisargadatta.

 

Or do we have an active role to play to make this world a better place as

suggested by others?

 

Your opinions and explanations will be highly appreciated.

 

______________________

With Love,

Cyber Dervish

````````````````````````````````````````

[Guest guest]

Dear Jan,

 

Advaita's teaching on this question really isn't

about free will. It's about a sort of mental illusion

(like an optical illusion) which it calls " doership. "

 

Here's the illusion: there seems to be " something "

in our minds (a part of our minds or a particular

kind of thought) that decides what we are about to

do in the immediate future. Then that part of the

mind directs the rest of the body/mind to take that action.

 

That's what it feels like, right?

 

Well, if you meditate, you can see that this is

an illusion. That " part " of the mind that seems to

be making decisions and directing the " rest " of

us to act is actually just a mental representation,

a fantasy. You can see this by the fact that it

can completely vanish and your body/mind will

still be acting.

 

Incidentally, this " part " of the mind is what Ramana

Maharshi calls the I-thought. The basic idea of

self-enquiry is that you focus attention on this I-thought

and keep it there. If you do that for a while, the

I-thought vanishes and you see through the illusion.

 

Regards,

 

Rob

 

 

-

" Jan Sultan " <swork

<sworkalpha

Friday, August 10, 2001 10:04 PM

Doer, Non-doer. Freewill or just here for the ride?

 

 

> Another thing that I have failed to get a clear answer on is the question

> about freewill.

>

> Are we here just as witnesses, observers and nothing we do influences any

> worldly outcome as suggested by Ramana and Nisargadatta.

>

> Or do we have an active role to play to make this world a better place as

> suggested by others?

>

> Your opinions and explanations will be highly appreciated.

>

> ______________________

> With Love,

> Cyber Dervish

> ````````````````````````````````````````

>

>

>

> ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........

>

> Email addresses:

> Post message: Realization

> Un: Realization-

> Our web address: http://www.realization.org

>

> By sending a message to this list, you are giving

> permission to have it reproduced as a letter on

> http://www.realization.org

> ................................................

>

>

[Guest guest]

I believe we have a responsibility to make the

best choice we can in each moment.

 

The results of those choices are not in our control.

 

So do we really have volition?

 

Michael

 

At 09:04 PM 8/10/2001, you wrote:

>Another thing that I have failed to get a clear answer on is the question

>about freewill.

>

>Are we here just as witnesses, observers and nothing we do influences any

>worldly outcome as suggested by Ramana and Nisargadatta.

>

>Or do we have an active role to play to make this world a better place as

>suggested by others?

>

>Your opinions and explanations will be highly appreciated.

>

>______________________

>With Love,

>Cyber Dervish

>````````````````````````````````````````

>

>

>

>..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........

>

>Email addresses:

> Post message: Realization

> Un: Realization-

>Our web address: http://www.realization.org

>

>By sending a message to this list, you are giving

>permission to have it reproduced as a letter on

>http://www.realization.org

>................................................

>

>

[Guest guest]

After observing myself and others for a very

long time, I have concluded that most people

are asleep at the switch. We make decisions

out of conditioned mental habits, not out of

awareness of the present moment experience.

 

As long as this works...it works.

 

When it stops working the pain becomes

unbearable and the mind starts looking for

answers.

 

Mind is a wonderful servant but a lousy master.

 

Awareness knows what to do because it sees,

it doesn't have to think about whether this is a

right or best choice...it KNOWS !!!

 

Michael

 

At 06:15 AM 8/11/2001, you wrote:

>Dear Jan,

>

>Advaita's teaching on this question really isn't

>about free will. It's about a sort of mental illusion

>(like an optical illusion) which it calls " doership. "

>

>Here's the illusion: there seems to be " something "

>in our minds (a part of our minds or a particular

>kind of thought) that decides what we are about to

>do in the immediate future. Then that part of the

>mind directs the rest of the body/mind to take that action.

>

>That's what it feels like, right?

>

>Well, if you meditate, you can see that this is

>an illusion. That " part " of the mind that seems to

>be making decisions and directing the " rest " of

>us to act is actually just a mental representation,

>a fantasy. You can see this by the fact that it

>can completely vanish and your body/mind will

>still be acting.

>

>Incidentally, this " part " of the mind is what Ramana

>Maharshi calls the I-thought. The basic idea of

>self-enquiry is that you focus attention on this I-thought

>and keep it there. If you do that for a while, the

>I-thought vanishes and you see through the illusion.

>

>Regards,

>

>Rob

>

>

>-

> " Jan Sultan " <swork

><sworkalpha

>Friday, August 10, 2001 10:04 PM

> Doer, Non-doer. Freewill or just here for the ride?

>

>

> > Another thing that I have failed to get a clear answer on is the question

> > about freewill.

> >

> > Are we here just as witnesses, observers and nothing we do influences any

> > worldly outcome as suggested by Ramana and Nisargadatta.

> >

> > Or do we have an active role to play to make this world a better place as

> > suggested by others?

> >

> > Your opinions and explanations will be highly appreciated.

> >

> > ______________________

> > With Love,

> > Cyber Dervish

> > ````````````````````````````````````````

> >

> >

> >

> > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........

> >

> > Email addresses:

> > Post message: Realization

> > Un: Realization-

> > Our web address: http://www.realization.org

> >

> > By sending a message to this list, you are giving

> > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on

> > http://www.realization.org

> > ................................................

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dear everybody in this conversation,

 

Here's a simple exercise. Actually, I suppose

it's a kind of yoga.

 

Put a bunch of coins on a table before you.

Spread them out. Reach out with your hand

and select one of these coins at random.

 

As your hand reaches out, watch your mind

very carefully. Try to catch the moment

when you decide WHICH coin will be

selected.

 

I dare you to witness the mechanism that

makes the decision, that makes the free

choice.

 

If there's free will, well, you ought be able

to watch it happen, right?

 

Regards,

 

Rob

 

 

-

" Michael D. Johnson " <michael

<Realization >

Saturday, August 11, 2001 8:29 AM

Re: Doer, Non-doer. Freewill or just here for the ride?

 

 

> After observing myself and others for a very

> long time, I have concluded that most people

> are asleep at the switch. We make decisions

> out of conditioned mental habits, not out of

> awareness of the present moment experience.

>

> As long as this works...it works.

>

> When it stops working the pain becomes

> unbearable and the mind starts looking for

> answers.

>

> Mind is a wonderful servant but a lousy master.

>

> Awareness knows what to do because it sees,

> it doesn't have to think about whether this is a

> right or best choice...it KNOWS !!!

>

> Michael

>

> At 06:15 AM 8/11/2001, you wrote:

> >Dear Jan,

> >

> >Advaita's teaching on this question really isn't

> >about free will. It's about a sort of mental illusion

> >(like an optical illusion) which it calls " doership. "

> >

> >Here's the illusion: there seems to be " something "

> >in our minds (a part of our minds or a particular

> >kind of thought) that decides what we are about to

> >do in the immediate future. Then that part of the

> >mind directs the rest of the body/mind to take that action.

> >

> >That's what it feels like, right?

> >

> >Well, if you meditate, you can see that this is

> >an illusion. That " part " of the mind that seems to

> >be making decisions and directing the " rest " of

> >us to act is actually just a mental representation,

> >a fantasy. You can see this by the fact that it

> >can completely vanish and your body/mind will

> >still be acting.

> >

> >Incidentally, this " part " of the mind is what Ramana

> >Maharshi calls the I-thought. The basic idea of

> >self-enquiry is that you focus attention on this I-thought

> >and keep it there. If you do that for a while, the

> >I-thought vanishes and you see through the illusion.

> >

> >Regards,

> >

> >Rob

> >

> >

> >-

> > " Jan Sultan " <swork

> ><sworkalpha

> >Friday, August 10, 2001 10:04 PM

> > Doer, Non-doer. Freewill or just here for the ride?

> >

> >

> > > Another thing that I have failed to get a clear answer on is the question

> > > about freewill.

> > >

> > > Are we here just as witnesses, observers and nothing we do influences any

> > > worldly outcome as suggested by Ramana and Nisargadatta.

> > >

> > > Or do we have an active role to play to make this world a better place as

> > > suggested by others?

> > >

> > > Your opinions and explanations will be highly appreciated.

> > >

> > > ______________________

> > > With Love,

> > > Cyber Dervish

> > > ````````````````````````````````````````

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........

> > >

> > > Email addresses:

> > > Post message: Realization

> > > Un: Realization-

> > > Our web address: http://www.realization.org

> > >

> > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving

> > > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on

> > > http://www.realization.org

> > > ................................................

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Michael,

 

> After observing myself and others for a very

> long time, I have concluded that most people

> are asleep at the switch. We make decisions

> out of conditioned mental habits, not out of

> awareness of the present moment experience.

 

Can you give me an example of a decision

that's based on the present moment alone?

 

I think, actually, all decisions are based on either

things we've learned in the past or on instincts.

 

What happens, I think, when our attention remains

on the present moment, is that we see that our

decisions are made by a sort of automatic

apparatus which is not connected to our awareness

( " me " ) in the way we thought. But the decisions

are still made on the basis of past experience.

 

Regards,

 

Rob

 

-

" Michael D. Johnson " <michael

<Realization >

Saturday, August 11, 2001 8:29 AM

Re: Doer, Non-doer. Freewill or just here for the ride?

 

 

> After observing myself and others for a very

> long time, I have concluded that most people

> are asleep at the switch. We make decisions

> out of conditioned mental habits, not out of

> awareness of the present moment experience.

>

> As long as this works...it works.

>

> When it stops working the pain becomes

> unbearable and the mind starts looking for

> answers.

>

> Mind is a wonderful servant but a lousy master.

>

> Awareness knows what to do because it sees,

> it doesn't have to think about whether this is a

> right or best choice...it KNOWS !!!

>

> Michael

>

> At 06:15 AM 8/11/2001, you wrote:

> >Dear Jan,

> >

> >Advaita's teaching on this question really isn't

> >about free will. It's about a sort of mental illusion

> >(like an optical illusion) which it calls " doership. "

> >

> >Here's the illusion: there seems to be " something "

> >in our minds (a part of our minds or a particular

> >kind of thought) that decides what we are about to

> >do in the immediate future. Then that part of the

> >mind directs the rest of the body/mind to take that action.

> >

> >That's what it feels like, right?

> >

> >Well, if you meditate, you can see that this is

> >an illusion. That " part " of the mind that seems to

> >be making decisions and directing the " rest " of

> >us to act is actually just a mental representation,

> >a fantasy. You can see this by the fact that it

> >can completely vanish and your body/mind will

> >still be acting.

> >

> >Incidentally, this " part " of the mind is what Ramana

> >Maharshi calls the I-thought. The basic idea of

> >self-enquiry is that you focus attention on this I-thought

> >and keep it there. If you do that for a while, the

> >I-thought vanishes and you see through the illusion.

> >

> >Regards,

> >

> >Rob

> >

> >

> >-

> > " Jan Sultan " <swork

> ><sworkalpha

> >Friday, August 10, 2001 10:04 PM

> > Doer, Non-doer. Freewill or just here for the ride?

> >

> >

> > > Another thing that I have failed to get a clear answer on is the question

> > > about freewill.

> > >

> > > Are we here just as witnesses, observers and nothing we do influences any

> > > worldly outcome as suggested by Ramana and Nisargadatta.

> > >

> > > Or do we have an active role to play to make this world a better place as

> > > suggested by others?

> > >

> > > Your opinions and explanations will be highly appreciated.

> > >

> > > ______________________

> > > With Love,

> > > Cyber Dervish

> > > ````````````````````````````````````````

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........

> > >

> > > Email addresses:

> > > Post message: Realization

> > > Un: Realization-

> > > Our web address: http://www.realization.org

> > >

> > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving

> > > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on

> > > http://www.realization.org

> > > ................................................

> > >

> > >