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At 04:31 PM 8/11/2001, you wrote:

 

Hi Gary:

 

I changed the subject line to better reflect

where I am coming from.

 

 

 

 

>The problem with online discussions is that an email necessarily targets a

>general audience.

 

 

Why does it have to be this way?

 

Why can't we express how a certain post makes us feel

instead of trying to analyze and correct where the original

poster is wrong?

 

 

>Effective analysis, like everything else, requires timing.

 

 

Why do we feel we have to analyze instead of sharing experiences?

As you point out, there is no way to really know what the poster

means from just a few words written on a computer screen which

is screened through the mind of the reader, there being no body language

or voice inflections to gauge the emotional intent of the writer.

 

>What I write helps me and I post it hoping it may help others. Sometimes the

>timing is wrong; sometimes it well never be useful to someone else. More

>below.

 

I like what you say here. Writing helps me to...in the long run.

As I said, sometimes it brings up fear and other negative states

that have absolutely nothing to do with the current discussion,

this too is very enlightening. What power is it that can make me

feel bad when I don't intend for that to happen? Am I my emotions?

Am I my thoughts? Who am I? Who is this monster that wants to

keep me imprisoned in the chains of negativity?

 

 

>The issue that Rob and I were discussing is not directly relevant to your

>issue above. The " answer " to your issue is " just sit " . Sit quietly with your

>emotions and learn not to identify with them.

 

 

When I sit quietly with my emotions, they get really wild.

I feel them in my chest and solar plexus. They come out as

anger or some other negative emotional state.

 

>This creates a distance, so

>that you can experience, not repress, your emotions but still not feel

>compelled to follow them. Even what I just said is only a general answer.

>Perhaps sitting is not right for you right now. We know little about who can

>be helped my meditation and who cannot. I do not know you, so I have no idea

>if meditation is something you should even try.

 

 

Believe it or not, I meditate every waking hour of every day,

in that I am always aware of my emotional feeling state as it

is happening and I can see when it is out of wack with reality.

 

The biggest " problem " is when I go to sleep and then my

unconscious mind has a field day because I am no longer there

to hold the negative emotions in check. I have been to the

dark night of the soul...I am here to tell you it is real. There are

negative energies that will devour a weak soul, especially one

who is filled with guilt, regret and anger.

 

 

> >

> > Why do some people love to debate and some people

> > hate it? Why does it invoke fear in the hearts of

> > some and pride in others to be able to outwit another

> > and in the process message their ego while trampling

> > on the feelings of others?

> >

>First of all, we need to distinguish between debate meaning to argue to win,

>and debate meaning to discuss an issue to understand it. Opposing views,

>clearly formulated, can help one another to the truth, like two rock

>climbers using each other's body like a moving ladder to get to the top. I'd

>like to comment just about debate as discussion to find the truth. Some

>people love this sort of debate because they love the truth and know it

>takes a lot of work to get there. Others hate it because they just want to

>feel good and aren't really interested in the truth, or don't want to make

>the effort necessary to find it.

 

 

Who decides when and if someone will become a seeker of Truth.

I sure don't remember asking for it and if I did I must have been out

of my cotton picking mind...:-),

 

 

 

>Others are just not interested in debate,

>because that is not their way to move toward enlightenment. Hinduism

>identifies three ways: karma yoga, getting there by deeds; bhakti yoga,

>getting there by emotion or piety; and jnana yoga, getting there by inquiry.

>Jnana yogi are debaters (among other things).

 

 

Where is it that we get after we get there?

Is the search itself the obstacle to Seeing that It is already here?

 

You are very wise man Gary and I consider it an honor to have been

able to converse with you today. My apologies if my posts are too

emotional but I no longer wish to talk the talk, I want to walk the walk.

 

Hey, I don't even believe that I am sitting here writing this stuff since

every time I do I end up paying for it with pain and suffering...yeah, I know,

pretty ignorant, but true as to my experience.

 

Michael

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Michael,

>

>> The problem with online discussions is that an email necessarily targets a

>> general audience.

>

> Why does it have to be this way?

 

Because we don't know who all are reading this very post. They can be coming

from any direction, with different tastes, etc. So we either guess where a

good portion of the participants are coming from or we do as you suggest

immediately below and that I mentioned in my previous email: write about

what interests us and hope others find it of interest as well.

>

> Why can't we express how a certain post makes us feel

> instead of trying to analyze and correct where the original

> poster is wrong?

>

We can do either, or something else still. Whatever we do, some readers are

likely to like it, some dislike it, and some just be indifferent.

 

>> Effective analysis, like everything else, requires timing.

>

> Why do we feel we have to analyze instead of sharing experiences?

 

I never suggested " instead of " . Both are useful. One problem I've noticed

that an online group can get into is failing to realize that online is

different from being together in a room. Perhaps there are people reading

this who want to talk about something entirely different but are afraid to

" interrupt " our conversation. That would make sense in a room, where only

one person can talk at a time. But online, a lot of conversations can go on

simultaneously. It's not rude if another member of this group sends out an

entirely different email ignoring your and my exchanges.

 

> As you point out, there is no way to really know what the poster

> means from just a few words written on a computer screen which

> is screened through the mind of the reader, there being no body language

> or voice inflections to gauge the emotional intent of the writer.

>

>> What I write helps me and I post it hoping it may help others. Sometimes the

>> timing is wrong; sometimes it well never be useful to someone else. More

>> below.

>

> I like what you say here. Writing helps me to...in the long run.

> As I said, sometimes it brings up fear and other negative states

> that have absolutely nothing to do with the current discussion,

> this too is very enlightening. What power is it that can make me

> feel bad when I don't intend for that to happen? Am I my emotions?

> Am I my thoughts? Who am I? Who is this monster that wants to

> keep me imprisoned in the chains of negativity?

>

Like Rob, I found Ramana Maharshi very helpful.

 

>> The issue that Rob and I were discussing is not directly relevant to your

>> issue above. The " answer " to your issue is " just sit " . Sit quietly with your

>> emotions and learn not to identify with them.

>

> When I sit quietly with my emotions, they get really wild.

> I feel them in my chest and solar plexus. They come out as

> anger or some other negative emotional state.

 

Meditation is not a panacea. It helps give you some distance from your

emotions so you don't take them too seriously, but if they are too deeply

rooted, meditation alone may not allow them to dissolve. Some sort of

therapy may be necessary to help you understand the meaning and cause of

your emotions. Again, my remarks are necessarily general and I don't think

this is the appropriate forum for you to get more specific.

>

>> This creates a distance, so

>> that you can experience, not repress, your emotions but still not feel

>> compelled to follow them. Even what I just said is only a general answer.

>> Perhaps sitting is not right for you right now. We know little about who can

>> be helped my meditation and who cannot. I do not know you, so I have no idea

>> if meditation is something you should even try.

>

> Believe it or not, I meditate every waking hour of every day,

> in that I am always aware of my emotional feeling state as it

> is happening and I can see when it is out of wack with reality.

>

> The biggest " problem " is when I go to sleep and then my

> unconscious mind has a field day because I am no longer there

> to hold the negative emotions in check. I have been to the

> dark night of the soul...I am here to tell you it is real. There are

> negative energies that will devour a weak soul, especially one

> who is filled with guilt, regret and anger.

>

If you are concerned that your emotions are stronger than you can handle,

then you would be wise to seek professional help.

>>>

> Who decides when and if someone will become a seeker of Truth.

> I sure don't remember asking for it and if I did I must have been out

> of my cotton picking mind...:-),

>

Since I took college philosophy in the 50s, seeking the truth has been my

deepest drive. But there were times when I was afraid I bit off more than I

could chew. Nietzsche is very applicable: What does not destroy you will

make you stronger. The problem is knowing if you're strong enough. I'm not

sure we can know until we've been through it. That's why supportive friends

or therapist can be necessary.

>

>> Others are just not interested in debate,

>> because that is not their way to move toward enlightenment. Hinduism

>> identifies three ways: karma yoga, getting there by deeds; bhakti yoga,

>> getting there by emotion or piety; and jnana yoga, getting there by inquiry.

>> Jnana yogi are debaters (among other things).

>

> Where is it that we get after we get there?

> Is the search itself the obstacle to Seeing that It is already here?

 

The Search is a two-edged sword. If we do not seek, we will not find. Yet we

necessarily misunderstand what we're looking for until we find it.

Fortunately, the Search, if we really seek the truth and if we're strong

enough, is a self-correcting process.

>

Best wishes, Michael.

 

Gary

 

Gary Schouborg

Performance Consulting

Walnut Creek, CA

garyscho

 

Publications and professional services:

http://home.att.net/~garyscho

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