Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 Another great question, Jan. You are a first-rate inquirer. > Here I am not talking of out of body experiences. Frankly I haven't had any > out of body experience. Here I am talking about the times when most of us > have, possibly due to shock, 'lost interest' in 'controlling' our bodies. It > is as if we are frozen with fear but we do not have any fear, in fact we are > rendered emotionless and unconcerned about what happens to our body. > > Let me give two examples to explain. [i am not very proud of what happened > in either case!] > I was on a flimsy motorbike on a narrow bridge when I saw coming towards me > a truck and trailer veering from side to side apparently out of control. I > just froze, yet I did not feel any fear or concern for my safety. I had > turned into an indifferent observer! > The same thing happened when I saw a drowning boy in a swimming pool. There > was no danger to me in any action to save that boy. Yet again I turned into > an indifferent observer. > [Luckily in both cases nothing serious happened.] > > Anybody have similar experiences? And is this similar to what Nisargadatta > et. al. refer to when they advise us not to identify with our bodies and > minds? > Yes, I had a similar, unenlightened but hypnogogic, experience in a car accident. Like a deer caught in someone's headlights. It is probably an old survival mechanism where it is better to stand still and not be noticed rather than to move. The mechanism works well for a deer in the forest, where standing still allows it to be camouflaged by the vegetation. Doesn't work so well in the highway, however. This involves dissociating with our bodies when it involves no fear. It is not enlightened disidentifying with them. When enlightened, I disidentify with my body while fully aware of it and ready for appropriate action. To say I disidentify with my body is to say that I am mindfully aware that my deepest happiness does not lie with the fortunes of my body, but deeply within myself. > I cannot resist the temptation of quoting from my favorite guru, Nisargadatta: > > Having seen that you are a bundle of memories held together by attachment, > step out and look from the outside. You may perceive for the first time > something which is not memory. You cease to be Mr-so-and-so, busy about his > own affairs. You are at last at peace. You realize that nothing was ever > wrong with the world, you alone were wrong and now it is all over. Never > again will you be caught in the meshes of desire born of ignorance. (390) > Thank you for not resisting temptation. This is a nice expression of disidentifying. However, it is ambiguous, since it could easily be read as encouraging a dysfunctional passivity. Desire does not of itself cause suffering, attachment does. Desire makes the world go 'round. It is the font of all human expression and creativity. However, if we think our truest happiness lies in satisfying particular desires, then our priorities are out of whack and we suffer when disappointed. Best to all, Gary Gary Schouborg Performance Consulting Walnut Creek, CA garyscho Publications and professional services: http://home.att.net/~garyscho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2001 Report Share Posted August 14, 2001 At 8/13/2001-07:45 PM, Gary Schouborg wrote: >Desire makes the world go 'round. It is the font >of all human expression and creativity. However, if we think our truest >happiness lies in satisfying particular desires, then our priorities are out >of whack and we suffer when disappointed. For those who still have desires. What about those who desire no more. What about those who are in limbo ... neither wanting anything to do with this world nor having fully achieved liberation? ______________________ With Love, Cyber Dervish ```````````````````````````````````````` Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2001 Report Share Posted August 14, 2001 > At 8/13/2001-07:45 PM, Gary Schouborg wrote: >> Desire makes the world go 'round. It is the font >> of all human expression and creativity. However, if we think our truest >> happiness lies in satisfying particular desires, then our priorities are out >> of whack and we suffer when disappointed. > > For those who still have desires. What about those who desire no more. What > about those who are in limbo ... neither wanting anything to do with this > world nor having fully achieved liberation? > ____________ > With Love, > Cyber Dervish As Jan describes it, it sounds like a state of depression or some sort of defensive reaction to the difficulties in life. There are several excellent articles that identify psychologically dysfunctional states that are often confused with spiritual progress. Though written from a psychoanalytic perspective, they are sufficiently descriptive to be understood from other theoretical frameworks. Wilber, Ken, Jack Engler, and Daniel P. Brown, eds. (1986), Transformations of Consciousness: Conventional and Contemplative Perspectives on Development. (Boston: Shambhala). An excellent integration of psychoanalysis and Buddhist meditation is: Epstein, Mark (1995), Thoughts without a Thinker: Psychotherapy from a Buddhist Perspective. (New York: Basic Books). Foreword by the Dalai Lama. Gary Schouborg Performance Consulting Walnut Creek, CA garyscho Publications and professional services: http://home.att.net/~garyscho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2001 Report Share Posted August 14, 2001 At 8/14/2001-08:08 PM, you wrote: >As Jan describes it, it sounds like a state of depression or some sort of >defensive reaction to the difficulties in life. There are several excellent >articles that identify psychologically dysfunctional states that are often >confused with spiritual progress. Though written from a psychoanalytic >perspective, they are sufficiently descriptive to be understood from other >theoretical frameworks. You have got me completely wrong. Every thing is going super in my life and life has been very kind to me compared with most people around me. In fact those who know me would be very surprised if they read what I had written. Anyone who has tasted freedom will tell you that everything else pales in comparison. ______________________ With Love, Cyber Dervish ```````````````````````````````````````` Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2001 Report Share Posted August 14, 2001 I'm with Jan on this, based on my own experience. Yes, there has been increasing detachment from the desires that continue, but there has also been a decrease in the time spent desiring and a reduction in the " unobtainibility " of the objects desired. Desiring an apple in the refrigerator is a lot different from desiring a billion dollars. And of course it all brings happiness, or is attended by greater happiness. (Boy oh boy, Gary, do you have me on tippy-toes regarding any accidental explanations! - " Jan Sultan " <swork <Realization > Tuesday, August 14, 2001 2:26 PM Re: Non-identification with body > At 8/14/2001-08:08 PM, you wrote: > >As Jan describes it, it sounds like a state of depression or some sort of > >defensive reaction to the difficulties in life. There are several excellent > >articles that identify psychologically dysfunctional states that are often > >confused with spiritual progress. Though written from a psychoanalytic > >perspective, they are sufficiently descriptive to be understood from other > >theoretical frameworks. > > You have got me completely wrong. Every thing is going super in my life and > life has been very kind to me compared with most people around me. In fact > those who know me would be very surprised if they read what I had written. > > Anyone who has tasted freedom will tell you that everything else pales in > comparison. > ______________________ > With Love, > Cyber Dervish > ```````````````````````````````````````` > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2001 Report Share Posted August 14, 2001 > At 8/14/2001-08:08 PM, you wrote: >> As Jan describes it, it sounds like a state of depression or some sort of >> defensive reaction to the difficulties in life. There are several excellent >> articles that identify psychologically dysfunctional states that are often >> confused with spiritual progress. Though written from a psychoanalytic >> perspective, they are sufficiently descriptive to be understood from other >> theoretical frameworks. > > You have got me completely wrong. Every thing is going super in my life and > life has been very kind to me compared with most people around me. In fact > those who know me would be very surprised if they read what I had written. > > Anyone who has tasted freedom will tell you that everything else pales in > comparison. > ______________________ > With Love, > Cyber Dervish Jan, Glad to hear that your description doesn't apply to you, but I never implied that it did. I never got you wrong, because I never said anything about you, only your description, which I never assumed was about you. In email correspondence especially, all we have is the text and should stick closely to it. Best wishes, Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2001 Report Share Posted August 14, 2001 Rob I agree with this. There has been a definite decrease in desire for me. Most things are just there, I neither want to possess them nor am I averse to them. I think the problem is Gary is theoritically brilliant and very well read, but there are ceratin things that one has to experience, and even that becomes very difficult to expalin in words and tell others. This might lead to a misunderstanding of the individual's experience. Yards of research in no way diminishes the value of my own experience to me. Raghu Rob Sacks wrote: I'm with Jan on this, based on my own experience. Yes, there has been increasing detachment from the desires that continue, but there has also been a decrease in the time spent desiring and a reduction in the "unobtainibility" of the objects desired. Desiring an apple in the refrigerator is a lot different from desiring a billion dollars. And of course it all brings happiness, or is attended by greater happiness. (Boy oh boy, Gary, do you have me on tippy-toes regarding any accidental explanations! - "Jan Sultan" <swork <Realization > Tuesday, August 14, 2001 2:26 PM Re: Non-identification with body > At 8/14/2001-08:08 PM, you wrote: > >As Jan describes it, it sounds like a state of depression or some sort of > >defensive reaction to the difficulties in life. There are several excellent > >articles that identify psychologically dysfunctional states that are often > >confused with spiritual progress. Though written from a psychoanalytic > >perspective, they are sufficiently descriptive to be understood from other > >theoretical frameworks. > > You have got me completely wrong. Every thing is going super in my life and > life has been very kind to me compared with most people around me. In fact > those who know me would be very surprised if they read what I had written. > > Anyone who has tasted freedom will tell you that everything else pales in > comparison. > ______________________ > With Love, > Cyber Dervish > ```````````````````````````````````````` > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2001 Report Share Posted August 15, 2001 Hi Raghun, Total agreement. If you haven't had this experience, but try to imagine it, you will probably come up with an idea of it that rationalizes it away, perhaps inadvertently. "What these people are reporting is wildly exaggerated -- they must really mean this other thing which I've experienced myself." My message made it seem like this is a matter of gradual changes in degree rather than a radical change in the relationship of the whole desiring apparatus to awareness but actually there were both kinds of experiences. (I only mentioned the first because it's easier to believe.) Was it similar for you? Rob - raghunandan Realization Wednesday, August 15, 2001 12:59 AM Re: Non-identification with body RobI agree with this. There has been a definite decrease in desire for me. Most things are just there, I neither want to possess them nor am I averse to them. I think the problem is Gary is theoritically brilliant and very well read, but there are ceratin things that one has to experience, and even that becomes very difficult to expalin in words and tell others. This might lead to a misunderstanding of the individual's experience. Yards of research in no way diminishes the value of my own experience to me.RaghuRob Sacks wrote: I'm with Jan on this, based on my own experience.Yes, there has been increasing detachment fromthe desires that continue, but there has also beena decrease in the time spent desiring and a reductionin the "unobtainibility" of the objects desired. Desiring an apple in the refrigerator is a lot different from desiring a billion dollars. And of course it all brings happiness, or is attendedby greater happiness. (Boy oh boy, Gary, doyou have me on tippy-toes regarding any accidentalexplanations! - "Jan Sultan" <swork<Realization >Tuesday, August 14, 2001 2:26 PMRe: Non-identification with body> At 8/14/2001-08:08 PM, you wrote:> >As Jan describes it, it sounds like a state of depression or some sort of> >defensive reaction to the difficulties in life. There are several excellent> >articles that identify psychologically dysfunctional states that are often> >confused with spiritual progress. Though written from a psychoanalytic> >perspective, they are sufficiently descriptive to be understood from other> >theoretical frameworks.> > You have got me completely wrong. Every thing is going super in my life and > life has been very kind to me compared with most people around me. In fact > those who know me would be very surprised if they read what I had written.> > Anyone who has tasted freedom will tell you that everything else pales in > comparison.> ______________________> With Love,> Cyber Dervish> ````````````````````````````````````````> > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........> > Email addresses:> Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org> > By sending a message to this list, you are giving> permission to have it reproduced as a letter on> http://www.realization.org> ................................................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2001 Report Share Posted August 15, 2001 Raghu and Rob, > Rob > I agree with this. There has been a definite decrease in desire for me. Most > things are just there, I neither want to possess them nor am I averse to them. > I think the problem is Gary is theoritically brilliant and very well read, but > there are ceratin things that one has to experience, and even that becomes > very difficult to expalin in words and tell others. This might lead to a > misunderstanding of the individual's experience. Yards of research in no way > diminishes the value of my own experience to me. > Raghu > > > Rob Sacks wrote: > I'm with Jan on this, based on my own experience. > Yes, there has been increasing detachment from > the desires that continue, but there has also been > a decrease in the time spent desiring and a reduction > in the " unobtainibility " of the objects desired. > Desiring an apple in the refrigerator is a lot > different from desiring a billion dollars. And > of course it all brings happiness, or is attended > by greater happiness. (Boy oh boy, Gary, do > you have me on tippy-toes regarding any accidental > explanations! I think we're in basic agreement. Here's the original exchange, with my further comment. I had written: >> Desire makes the world go 'round. It is the font of all human expression and >> creativity. However, if we think our truest happiness lies in satisfying >> particular desires, then our priorities are out of whack and we suffer when >> disappointed. >> Jan replied: > For those who still have desires. What about those who desire no more. What > about those who are in limbo ... neither wanting anything to do with this > world nor having fully achieved liberation? ____________ With Love, Cyber > Dervish Jan says that his friends would not recognize him in this description, so either this is a description of someone else or a poor description of Jan. In either case, it describes someone with NO desire, who doesn't want ANYTHING to do with this world, and is also not yet fully liberated. I can understand that in only one way: the reference is not to a healthy no-desire as described by any alleged sage that I have read. It is important not to think every lack of desire is healthy or enlightened. It is important for two reasons. On the one hand, it is no service to those with weak ego development to have them think they are enlightened, when their lack of desire stems from depression or insufficient ability to set goals. On the other hand, it is a disservice to the talented (and to the society that benefits from them) to think that their ambitions are necessarily unenlightened. That having been said, in our culture many (probably most) of our desires are " manufactured " , so that when we become more mindful we experience a diminution of desire like that described by Rob and Raghu. Still, apparently both of them WANTED to communicate something when then posted their emails, as I want to communicate something now. Fortunately, whereas in the past I would have thought our agreeing was critical to my happiness, agreement is now only a nice-to-have. Best wishes, Gary Schouborg Performance Consulting Walnut Creek, CA garyscho Publications and professional services: http://home.att.net/~garyscho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2001 Report Share Posted August 16, 2001 At 8/15/2001-07:13 PM, Gary Schouborg wrote: >It is important not to think every lack of desire is healthy or enlightened. >It is important for two reasons. On the one hand, it is no service to those >with weak ego development to have them think they are enlightened, when >their lack of desire stems from depression or insufficient ability to set >goals. On the other hand, it is a disservice to the talented (and to the >society that benefits from them) to think that their ambitions are >necessarily unenlightened. Perhaps even worldly success also depends on something other than a strong ego, clear goals and strong ambition. For example, I am physically lazy, I have never set clear goals, I have never been ambitious and I think my ego was very weak [now it is almost dead]. Yet, I was always top of my class. I also reached mountain tops ahead of all competition. I always swam the furthest in the ocean than anyone else. I have succeeded in all my numerous business attempts against very strong odds [and against international competition]. So maybe all your western ideas of achievement, of success and of doer-ship are wrong? Maybe it is all predetermined, just accept your fate? One thing I have noticed in my life, when I want something desperately I don't get it. When I don't care very much if I succeed at something and somewhere inside me I am confident I succeed. I suspect it is the same with spiritual progress. [it is the same with involuntary body processes like urinating, sleeping, etc. You cannot force them, just relax and they happen. How many of us keep magazines in the toilet because of this!] Sorry, sometimes I ramble. I don't know if I make sense above? _____________________ With Love, Cyber Dervish ```````````````````````````````````````` Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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