Guest guest Posted August 24, 2001 Report Share Posted August 24, 2001 Nitin, > Libn Digest No.106, Message No.3 (Nisargadatta) > > Dear Gary and Evelyn, > > I do not think that Nisargadatta was offering spiritual candy. In fact, his > speciality was that he was quite blunt and to the point. Regarding the > specific statements mentioned (I presume they are from " I Am That " ), they are > not really his writings. He wrote nothing himself, not being highly educated. > " I Am That " is an English translation of selected Marathi conversations, > translated by a Polish Jew, and so there may be some inadequacies there. The > context of the two observations also obviously differs. Moreover, > Nisargadatta's original observations were made in mystical language, from the > background of his particular spiritual lineage (Naath lineage), and were not > meant to be read scientifically or logically. (For example, " there is no God > but the Self " ). He was not concerned much with the practical aspect because > probably he himself did not see any conflict between " theory " and " practice " . > His point was that if you see the theory of it, the practice happens > spontaneously. They are not separate issues. ( " Understanding is all that is > required " ). In a way, Zen takes a similar position (effortless effort or > no-effort). The actual specifics of explaining how this works in day-to-day > life is a burden that Gary (and to an extent, I) have taken up upon ourselves. > > I agree that a reader may be tempted to use the book as spiritual candy, > rather than as a starting point for his own spiritual self-research. This risk > is present in all spiritual reading, and Gary does well to point it out. Thank you for this history and explanation, Nitin. I spoke of spiritual candy to be provocative, not disrespectful. Nor was I implying that Evelyn was using N as spiritual candy, only that the more we understand the deeper logic in N's writings the more permanent will be their effect on us. Trying to understand the deeper logic was what I took Evelyn to be doing when she inquired about the meaning of the passage on good, evil, and necessity. BTW, I have a complete file of " I Am That " generously provided by Miguel Angel Carrasco. Unfortunately, he created it in Word Perfect (don't know if for PC or Mac) and I am unable to open it. Can any of you convert it to Word (either PC or Mac will do)? If you can, may I send it to you so you can convert it for me and anyone else interested? > > Gary, your piece on " failure and Enlightenment " was great. I wonder if you > could recast it in simpler language to be read by any non-Libniter types > because the point made is too important to be confined to this group. If you > can find the time, please send me a copy. > Thank you, Nitin, I'm glad you found it useful. My immediate objective is to complete the article for which that paragraph is the conclusion. That may require some recasting in itself. If it then still needs recasting so that it can stand alone, would you please raise the issue again? Best wishes, Gary Gary Schouborg Performance Consulting Walnut Creek, CA garyscho Publications and professional services: http://home.att.net/~garyscho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2001 Report Share Posted August 24, 2001 Dear friends, please know i did not feel disrespected i love candy in all its forms. What i was thinking however, all this talk, logical or illogical is it not appearing in the background of awareness? What is that awareness? Is it not the Ultimate, the Absolute, God? That awareness is i feel, i know (or rather there is a knowing,a deep knowing ) that is my true nature, that is who and what i really am. Living, speaking, hearing, loving from that Awareness is what calls and beckons and yet sadly, oh so sadly, for the most part alludes me. Warm regards, Evelyn - " Gary Schouborg " <garyscho " Liberation Group () " <libn > Friday, August 24, 2001 3:11 PM Re: [libn] Nisargadatta > Nitin, > > > Libn Digest No.106, Message No.3 (Nisargadatta) > > > > Dear Gary and Evelyn, > > > > I do not think that Nisargadatta was offering spiritual candy. In fact, his > > speciality was that he was quite blunt and to the point. Regarding the > > specific statements mentioned (I presume they are from " I Am That " ), they are > > not really his writings. He wrote nothing himself, not being highly educated. > > " I Am That " is an English translation of selected Marathi conversations, > > translated by a Polish Jew, and so there may be some inadequacies there. The > > context of the two observations also obviously differs. Moreover, > > Nisargadatta's original observations were made in mystical language, from the > > background of his particular spiritual lineage (Naath lineage), and were not > > meant to be read scientifically or logically. (For example, " there is no God > > but the Self " ). He was not concerned much with the practical aspect because > > probably he himself did not see any conflict between " theory " and " practice " . > > His point was that if you see the theory of it, the practice happens > > spontaneously. They are not separate issues. ( " Understanding is all that is > > required " ). In a way, Zen takes a similar position (effortless effort or > > no-effort). The actual specifics of explaining how this works in day-to-day > > life is a burden that Gary (and to an extent, I) have taken up upon ourselves. > > > > I agree that a reader may be tempted to use the book as spiritual candy, > > rather than as a starting point for his own spiritual self-research. This risk > > is present in all spiritual reading, and Gary does well to point it out. > > Thank you for this history and explanation, Nitin. I spoke of spiritual > candy to be provocative, not disrespectful. Nor was I implying that Evelyn > was using N as spiritual candy, only that the more we understand the deeper > logic in N's writings the more permanent will be their effect on us. Trying > to understand the deeper logic was what I took Evelyn to be doing when she > inquired about the meaning of the passage on good, evil, and necessity. > > BTW, I have a complete file of " I Am That " generously provided by Miguel > Angel Carrasco. Unfortunately, he created it in Word Perfect (don't know if > for PC or Mac) and I am unable to open it. Can any of you convert it to Word > (either PC or Mac will do)? If you can, may I send it to you so you can > convert it for me and anyone else interested? > > > > Gary, your piece on " failure and Enlightenment " was great. I wonder if you > > could recast it in simpler language to be read by any non-Libniter types > > because the point made is too important to be confined to this group. If you > > can find the time, please send me a copy. > > > Thank you, Nitin, I'm glad you found it useful. My immediate objective is to > complete the article for which that paragraph is the conclusion. That may > require some recasting in itself. If it then still needs recasting so that > it can stand alone, would you please raise the issue again? > > Best wishes, > > Gary > > Gary Schouborg > Performance Consulting > Walnut Creek, CA > garyscho > > Publications and professional services: > http://home.att.net/~garyscho > > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2001 Report Share Posted August 24, 2001 Dear Evelyn, Leaf was talking earlier today about how to hold on to the awareness. Now you also bring it up. And now me. It's very strange that when the awareness happens, I see with perfect clarity how the illusion is created that ordinarily hides it. And yet, when the illusion returns, I cannot dispel it. At such times I remember that I've seen that the secret of the whole thing is that any and all effort creates the illusion -- yet remembering doesn't help. I have a new plan: I recently started practicing self-enquiry as if I never did it before, from the beginning, following Ramana Maharshi's instructions very literally. They are the same instructions, really, that Nisargadatta Maharaj's guru gave to him: stay aware of the I-Am-ness all the time. Just keep attention on it. How does Maharaj put it? " Try to find the right combination of affection and attention " -- something like that, I'm writing it from memory. Good luck to all three of us! Rob - " Drs. Moschetta " <evpaul <Realization > Friday, August 24, 2001 5:54 PM Re: Re: [libn] Nisargadatta > Dear friends, please know i did not feel disrespected i love candy in all > its forms. > > What i was thinking however, all this talk, logical or illogical is it not > appearing in the background of awareness? What is that awareness? Is it > not the Ultimate, the Absolute, God? That awareness is i feel, i know (or > rather there is a knowing,a deep knowing ) that is my true nature, that is > who and what i really am. > > Living, speaking, hearing, loving from that Awareness is what calls and > beckons and yet sadly, oh so sadly, for the most part alludes me. Warm > regards, Evelyn > > - > " Gary Schouborg " <garyscho > " Liberation Group () " <libn > > Friday, August 24, 2001 3:11 PM > Re: [libn] Nisargadatta > > > > Nitin, > > > > > Libn Digest No.106, Message No.3 (Nisargadatta) > > > > > > Dear Gary and Evelyn, > > > > > > I do not think that Nisargadatta was offering spiritual candy. In fact, > his > > > speciality was that he was quite blunt and to the point. Regarding the > > > specific statements mentioned (I presume they are from " I Am That " ), > they are > > > not really his writings. He wrote nothing himself, not being highly > educated. > > > " I Am That " is an English translation of selected Marathi conversations, > > > translated by a Polish Jew, and so there may be some inadequacies there. > The > > > context of the two observations also obviously differs. Moreover, > > > Nisargadatta's original observations were made in mystical language, > from the > > > background of his particular spiritual lineage (Naath lineage), and > were not > > > meant to be read scientifically or logically. (For example, " there is no > God > > > but the Self " ). He was not concerned much with the practical aspect > because > > > probably he himself did not see any conflict between " theory " and > " practice " . > > > His point was that if you see the theory of it, the practice happens > > > spontaneously. They are not separate issues. ( " Understanding is all that > is > > > required " ). In a way, Zen takes a similar position (effortless effort or > > > no-effort). The actual specifics of explaining how this works in > day-to-day > > > life is a burden that Gary (and to an extent, I) have taken up upon > ourselves. > > > > > > I agree that a reader may be tempted to use the book as spiritual candy, > > > rather than as a starting point for his own spiritual self-research. > This risk > > > is present in all spiritual reading, and Gary does well to point it out. > > > > Thank you for this history and explanation, Nitin. I spoke of spiritual > > candy to be provocative, not disrespectful. Nor was I implying that Evelyn > > was using N as spiritual candy, only that the more we understand the > deeper > > logic in N's writings the more permanent will be their effect on us. > Trying > > to understand the deeper logic was what I took Evelyn to be doing when she > > inquired about the meaning of the passage on good, evil, and necessity. > > > > BTW, I have a complete file of " I Am That " generously provided by Miguel > > Angel Carrasco. Unfortunately, he created it in Word Perfect (don't know > if > > for PC or Mac) and I am unable to open it. Can any of you convert it to > Word > > (either PC or Mac will do)? If you can, may I send it to you so you can > > convert it for me and anyone else interested? > > > > > > Gary, your piece on " failure and Enlightenment " was great. I wonder if > you > > > could recast it in simpler language to be read by any non-Libniter types > > > because the point made is too important to be confined to this group. If > you > > > can find the time, please send me a copy. > > > > > Thank you, Nitin, I'm glad you found it useful. My immediate objective is > to > > complete the article for which that paragraph is the conclusion. That may > > require some recasting in itself. If it then still needs recasting so that > > it can stand alone, would you please raise the issue again? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Gary > > > > Gary Schouborg > > Performance Consulting > > Walnut Creek, CA > > garyscho > > > > Publications and professional services: > > http://home.att.net/~garyscho > > > > > > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > > > Email addresses: > > Post message: Realization > > Un: Realization- > > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > > http://www.realization.org > > ................................................ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2001 Report Share Posted August 24, 2001 Dear Nitin, > Nisargadatta's original observations were > made in mystical language, from the > background of his particular spiritual lineage > (Naath lineage), and were not > meant to be read scientifically or logically. > (For example, " there is no God > but the Self " ). Statements about God aren't scientific, in principle, because they aren't potentially falsifiable by empirical observations -- at least, nobody has yet figured out a way to arrange an experiment for this purpose -- so of course, this statement cannot be evaluated scientifically. But why do you call this statement illogical? It's simply the familiar Upanishadic assertion that " Atman is Brahman " translated as well as can be done into English. You may disagree with it, and you may point out that it is unproven, but there is nothing illogical about it. It's a main tenet of Sankara's philosophy, and he is generally regarded as the greatest philosopher in India's entire history. If you want to see a logical treatment of this idea -- my God, is it logical -- take a look at Sankara's Brahmasutra Bhasya. > The actual specifics of explaining how > this works in day-to-day > life is a burden that Gary (and to an extent, > I) have taken up upon ourselves. How can you do this until you have the experience of self-realization for yourselves? Until then, precisely because the existing written descriptions of this experience are inadequate, you cannot know what you are talking about. These people were describing something they experienced. It is a real phenomenon. If you want to learn more about the phenomenon, you must see it for yourself. You cannot learn more about it than they expressed by dissecting their statements. Trying to do so is like a biologist trying to learn the anatomy of a yeti by analyzing descriptions made by farmers in Nepal. If the biologist wants to add something to the farmers' descriptions, he must catch a yeti himself and examine it. Best regards, Rob - " Gary Schouborg " <garyscho " Liberation Group () " <libn > Friday, August 24, 2001 3:11 PM Re: [libn] Nisargadatta > Nitin, > > > Libn Digest No.106, Message No.3 (Nisargadatta) > > > > Dear Gary and Evelyn, > > > > I do not think that Nisargadatta was offering spiritual candy. In fact, his > > speciality was that he was quite blunt and to the point. Regarding the > > specific statements mentioned (I presume they are from " I Am That " ), they are > > not really his writings. He wrote nothing himself, not being highly educated. > > " I Am That " is an English translation of selected Marathi conversations, > > translated by a Polish Jew, and so there may be some inadequacies there. The > > context of the two observations also obviously differs. Moreover, > > Nisargadatta's original observations were made in mystical language, from the > > background of his particular spiritual lineage (Naath lineage), and were not > > meant to be read scientifically or logically. (For example, " there is no God > > but the Self " ). He was not concerned much with the practical aspect because > > probably he himself did not see any conflict between " theory " and " practice " . > > His point was that if you see the theory of it, the practice happens > > spontaneously. They are not separate issues. ( " Understanding is all that is > > required " ). In a way, Zen takes a similar position (effortless effort or > > no-effort). The actual specifics of explaining how this works in day-to-day > > life is a burden that Gary (and to an extent, I) have taken up upon ourselves. > > > > I agree that a reader may be tempted to use the book as spiritual candy, > > rather than as a starting point for his own spiritual self-research. This risk > > is present in all spiritual reading, and Gary does well to point it out. > > Thank you for this history and explanation, Nitin. I spoke of spiritual > candy to be provocative, not disrespectful. Nor was I implying that Evelyn > was using N as spiritual candy, only that the more we understand the deeper > logic in N's writings the more permanent will be their effect on us. Trying > to understand the deeper logic was what I took Evelyn to be doing when she > inquired about the meaning of the passage on good, evil, and necessity. > > BTW, I have a complete file of " I Am That " generously provided by Miguel > Angel Carrasco. Unfortunately, he created it in Word Perfect (don't know if > for PC or Mac) and I am unable to open it. Can any of you convert it to Word > (either PC or Mac will do)? If you can, may I send it to you so you can > convert it for me and anyone else interested? > > > > Gary, your piece on " failure and Enlightenment " was great. I wonder if you > > could recast it in simpler language to be read by any non-Libniter types > > because the point made is too important to be confined to this group. If you > > can find the time, please send me a copy. > > > Thank you, Nitin, I'm glad you found it useful. My immediate objective is to > complete the article for which that paragraph is the conclusion. That may > require some recasting in itself. If it then still needs recasting so that > it can stand alone, would you please raise the issue again? > > Best wishes, > > Gary > > Gary Schouborg > Performance Consulting > Walnut Creek, CA > garyscho > > Publications and professional services: > http://home.att.net/~garyscho > > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2001 Report Share Posted August 24, 2001 Y'all probably will enjoy this posting as much as I did. It's responding to my saying that when I spoke of Nisargadatta as spiritual candy I was being provocative, not disrespectful. Gary > Dear friends, please know i did not feel disrespected i love candy in all > its forms. > > What i was thinking however, all this talk, logical or illogical is it not > appearing in the background of awareness? What is that awareness? Is it > not the Ultimate, the Absolute, God? That awareness is i feel, i know (or > rather there is a knowing,a deep knowing ) that is my true nature, that is > who and what i really am. > > Living, speaking, hearing, loving from that Awareness is what calls and > beckons and yet sadly, oh so sadly, for the most part alludes me. Warm > regards, Evelyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2001 Report Share Posted August 25, 2001 At 8/25/2001-05:17 AM, you wrote: >BTW, I have a complete file of " I Am That " generously provided by Miguel >Angel Carrasco. Unfortunately, he created it in Word Perfect (don't know if >for PC or Mac) and I am unable to open it. Can any of you convert it to Word >(either PC or Mac will do)? If you can, may I send it to you so you can >convert it for me and anyone else interested? Hello Gary, I can see that like me you also use both PC and Mac. I will try to post the converted version on the Realization files area. However, you can open any word perfect document in either PC or Mac by opening it from within Microsoft Word and converting it from there. ______________________ With Love, Cyber Dervish ```````````````````````````````````````` Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2001 Report Share Posted August 25, 2001 > Hello Gary, > > I can see that like me you also use both PC and Mac. I will try to post the > converted version on the Realization files area. However, you can open any > word perfect document in either PC or Mac by opening it from within > Microsoft Word and converting it from there. > ______________________ > With Love, > Cyber Dervish > ```````````````````````````````````````` I think the Realization file area is disabled. However, I have posted it in my briefcase: http://briefcase./bc/sworkalpha/lst?.dir=/Spiritual & .order= & . view=l & .src=bc & .done=http%3a//briefcase./bc/sworkalpha/lst% 3f.dir=/Spiritual%26.src=bc%26.view=l Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2001 Report Share Posted August 25, 2001 Hi Jan, The file area is open for downloads but I'm the only one who can add new files. The reason is potential copyright infringement. Does Miguel have permission to copy the book? Rob - <swork > I think the Realization file area is disabled. However, I have posted > it in my briefcase: > > http://briefcase./bc/sworkalpha/lst?.dir=/Spiritual & .order= & . > view=l & .src=bc & .done=http%3a//briefcase./bc/sworkalpha/lst% > 3f.dir=/Spiritual%26.src=bc%26.view=l Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2001 Report Share Posted August 26, 2001 Realization, " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > Hi Jan, > > The file area is open for downloads but > I'm the only one who can add new files. > The reason is potential copyright > infringement. Does Miguel have > permission to copy the book? > > Rob > I have a small question. Is the family of Nisargadatta getting a single cent from the book? This reminds me of an incident here in Kenya. A few clever British scientists came here, did a joint research into a certain local discovery about curing aids and their even cleverer lawyers had the findings patented in their own names. We see it everyday, greedy western lawyers patenting locally growing rare plants, etc. Soon everything will be copyrighted and the poor countries will have to pay to breath their own air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2001 Report Share Posted August 26, 2001 Hi Jan, > I have a small question. Is the family > of Nisargadatta getting a > single cent from the book? I don't know but why should we imagine otherwise? Copyright law is the most democratic of all property law because a copyright automatically belongs to the author and nobody else. My copy of the book says " Copyright 1973 Nisargadatta Maharaj. " Apart from money, copyright serves a useful purpose in preserving the accuracy of the text. For example, when I reproduce Ramana Maharshi's works on Realization.org, I have to get permission from Sri Ramanashramam, and although they give the permission for free, they make me agree to reproduce the works in their exact original form. This seems to me to be a good thing. In any case, regardless of what we think of copyright law, Realization.org is highly dependent on reprinting copyrighted works for which it needs to get permissions on a continuing basis, and as a purely practical matter, if the website gets a reputation for copyright infringement, the website will be in a lot of trouble. Rob - <swork <Realization > Sunday, August 26, 2001 1:18 AM Re: [libn] Nisargadatta > Realization, " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > > Hi Jan, > > > > The file area is open for downloads but > > I'm the only one who can add new files. > > The reason is potential copyright > > infringement. Does Miguel have > > permission to copy the book? > > > > Rob > > > > I have a small question. Is the family of Nisargadatta getting a > single cent from the book? > > This reminds me of an incident here in Kenya. A few clever British > scientists came here, did a joint research into a certain local > discovery about curing aids and their even cleverer lawyers had the > findings patented in their own names. > > We see it everyday, greedy western lawyers patenting locally growing > rare plants, etc. Soon everything will be copyrighted and the poor > countries will have to pay to breath their own air. > > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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