Guest guest Posted September 6, 2001 Report Share Posted September 6, 2001 Rob, > Hi Gary, > > Since when are " empirical " and " anecodotal " opposed? > The guy's reporting his experience, therefore this is > an empirical account. > Empirical evidence is often contrasted with anecdotal evidence, even though the latter is about experience. The difference is that empirical evidence is supplied in a context that allows inferences to be drawn. Anecdotal does not, so that we are left only with the response, " Well, that's what you say; now what? " As I said, it's a start. If enough people report their experience unambiguously and under conditions that allow us to draw some inferences from their report, what they say becomes empirical evidence proper. > I agree with you that he is doing so in an unclear, > self-contradictory way, but nonetheless, I think it's > perfectly clear that he is claiming that Ken Wilber > remains aware while he sleeps. What's not clear is the nature of the awareness, since he describes it incoherently. If I tell you that I was X while asleep last night, it is perfectly clear that I'm claiming I was X last night. However, it is not yet intelligible. > > I don't think the self-contradictions and muddled > definitions are grounds for skepticism regarding that > claim. The claim is clear enough, it seems to me. > The more obvious reason for doubt, it seems to me, > is that he might simply be lying. > See my comments above. You are focusing too much on the " whether X occurred " and not enough on " what is the X that occurred " . I neither doubt nor believe what he claims, since I do not yet understand what he's claiming. I have my suspicions about what his experience actually was. And for all I know my suspicions are the same as yours. However, I suspect that San's and perhaps Jan's suspicions are quite different. And my experience with the scholarly community is that if comments on Wilber's report were invited, there'd be other interpretations that have not even occurred to me. In any case, Wilber's report is interesting, and I am most grateful to you for telling me about it; but until he explains it more clearly and it is placed alongside other reports from which we can draw valid inferences, it is not yet empirical evidence. Gary Gary Schouborg Performance Consulting Walnut Creek, CA garyscho Publications and professional services: http://home.att.net/~garyscho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2001 Report Share Posted September 6, 2001 Hi Gary, Okay, I understand your point of view except for one detail: I don't know what he would have needed to write to satisfy you. For purposes of illustration, could you write for us a brief intelligible account of a hypothetical state of sleeping awareness? > You are focusing too much on the " whether X occurred " > and not enough on " what is the X that occurred " . I do that because I don't believe that I would be satisfied by any answer he could give to the second question, any more than a description of redness can tell a blind person what it looks like. What I do believe is that the instructions for attaining the experience could be better. Rob - " Gary Schouborg " <garyscho " Realization " <Realization > Thursday, September 06, 2001 3:21 PM Awareness during sleep > Rob, > > > Hi Gary, > > > > Since when are " empirical " and " anecodotal " opposed? > > The guy's reporting his experience, therefore this is > > an empirical account. > > > Empirical evidence is often contrasted with anecdotal evidence, even though > the latter is about experience. The difference is that empirical evidence is > supplied in a context that allows inferences to be drawn. Anecdotal does > not, so that we are left only with the response, " Well, that's what you say; > now what? " As I said, it's a start. If enough people report their experience > unambiguously and under conditions that allow us to draw some inferences > from their report, what they say becomes empirical evidence proper. > > > I agree with you that he is doing so in an unclear, > > self-contradictory way, but nonetheless, I think it's > > perfectly clear that he is claiming that Ken Wilber > > remains aware while he sleeps. > > What's not clear is the nature of the awareness, since he describes it > incoherently. If I tell you that I was X while asleep last night, it is > perfectly clear that I'm claiming I was X last night. However, it is not yet > intelligible. > > > > I don't think the self-contradictions and muddled > > definitions are grounds for skepticism regarding that > > claim. The claim is clear enough, it seems to me. > > The more obvious reason for doubt, it seems to me, > > is that he might simply be lying. > > > See my comments above. You are focusing too much on the " whether X occurred " > and not enough on " what is the X that occurred " . I neither doubt nor believe > what he claims, since I do not yet understand what he's claiming. I have my > suspicions about what his experience actually was. And for all I know my > suspicions are the same as yours. However, I suspect that San's and perhaps > Jan's suspicions are quite different. And my experience with the scholarly > community is that if comments on Wilber's report were invited, there'd be > other interpretations that have not even occurred to me. In any case, > Wilber's report is interesting, and I am most grateful to you for telling me > about it; but until he explains it more clearly and it is placed alongside > other reports from which we can draw valid inferences, it is not yet > empirical evidence. > > Gary > > Gary Schouborg > Performance Consulting > Walnut Creek, CA > garyscho > > Publications and professional services: > http://home.att.net/~garyscho > > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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