Guest guest Posted September 8, 2001 Report Share Posted September 8, 2001 Rob: (snip) I'm not sure what Ken Wilber thinks he means by " ego " and " self " but by any ordinary definitions he's wrong about both his major points: the ego does actually go away, and this state is not the same as psychosis. D: Hi Rob, Sandeep, and all! I'd like to suggest that " ego " doesn't add " transpersonal qualities " to get to reality, as Ken seems to suggest, nor is something called " ego " needing to " go away " in order to obtain reality. Reality, therefore, is not a state, to be arrived at when something is added or done away with. It is " prior to " any state, and inclusive of any possible state. Reality being total, can't be arrived at by a process that adds or subtracts. Neither the personal plus transpersonal, nor the removal of something called " the personal " . Neither ego plugging into something powerful, nor ego somehow removing itself or having something else remove it. Not a process, not a movement into something or away from someting, not a change from one quality to another. Who you are this moment, before there is a moment. (Any perception of any moment is, as Sandeep has suggested, a conceptuality and an inference -- and this includes perception of an ego that is added to or done away with) -- Dan Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Messenger http://im. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2001 Report Share Posted September 8, 2001 Hi Dan, Nice to hear from you again. It's been a while! I didn't mean to suggest that absence of ego is required for realization, only that it does happen and that psychosis is not the result. My own experience is limited but as far as it goes, it confirms what you and Sandeep say. My ego receded like a curtain drawing back and there was reality behind it, as it always is. The ego sat happily in the corner like a machine. There was no need for it to go away, it has nothing to do with what's behind it. But I wonder if there might not be some deeper experience, because I can't say who witnessed this, or from whom the reality had previously been hidden. Rob - " d b " <dan330033 <realization > Saturday, September 08, 2001 10:28 AM Neither adding nor subtracting > Rob: (snip) > I'm not sure what Ken Wilber thinks he means > by " ego " and " self " but by any ordinary definitions > he's wrong about both his major points: the > ego does actually go away, and this state is > not the same as psychosis. > > D: Hi Rob, Sandeep, and all! > I'd like to suggest that " ego " doesn't > add " transpersonal qualities " to get to reality, > as Ken seems to suggest, nor is something called " ego " > needing to " go away " in order to obtain reality. > > Reality, therefore, is not a state, > to be arrived at when something is > added or done away with. > > It is " prior to " any state, and > inclusive of any possible state. > > Reality being total, can't be arrived > at by a process that adds or subtracts. > > Neither the personal plus transpersonal, > nor the removal of something called " the personal " . > Neither ego plugging into something > powerful, nor ego somehow removing > itself or having something else > remove it. > > Not a process, not a movement into > something or away from someting, not > a change from one quality to another. > > Who you are this moment, before there > is a moment. (Any perception of any > moment is, as Sandeep has suggested, > a conceptuality and an inference -- > and this includes perception of an > ego that is added to or done away with) > > -- Dan > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2001 Report Share Posted September 8, 2001 Hi Rob -- > I didn't mean to suggest that absence of > ego is required for realization, only that > it does happen and that psychosis is not > the result. O.K. Makes sense. I agree with you that psychosis isn't reality, as psychosis is simply a disordered state of perception. And neither is reality an ordered state of perception, if reality is considered as inclusive of all possible states and perceptions, but equivalent to no particular state or perception. > > My own experience is limited but as far > as it goes, it confirms what you and Sandeep > say. My ego receded like a curtain drawing > back and there was reality behind it, as it > always is. The ego sat happily in the corner > like a machine. There was no need for it > to go away, it has nothing to do with what's > behind it. > > But I wonder if there might not be some > deeper experience, because I can't say > who witnessed this, or from whom the > reality had previously been hidden. Reality as the Wizard-of-Oz? I like it! Agreed, the ego function is machine-like, an organizing of perception and knowing, and can be functioning in an orderly or disorderly way. Can reality be said to function in orderly and disorderly ways? No, these are inferences of an observer. Is there a correct and incorrect way for reality to function (or be perceived or experienced?) Again, no. If reality isn't dependent on a type of perception, experience, or a type of event, then inferences about a perceptual or apperceptual event called " realization " are beside the point. Most of the " spiritual community " seem to be involved in seeking or claiming realization, or idealizing someone considered as realized. Yet none of this is real. If perception is tied to the mechanics of the perceiving organism, then any perception or experience of realization can only reflect the nature of the perceiving organism, not the totality that is reality. The question you raise thus seems appropriate to me, the " deeper " reality being " prior " to observed or observer, prior to experience, time, prior to being perceived in one way or another. Dan Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Messenger http://im. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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