Guest guest Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 Any comments on the following? Jan ------- Q: What do you mean by 'it was done'? You became enlightened? CI: Enlightenment is not a word I use. I prefer to call this a natural way of being, the most natural actually. Or just radiant presence or dear awareness, clear seeing. I don't use the word enlightenment because the term itself is very loaded. To many people it implies a kind of Big Bang after which you are eternally in a steady state called enlightenment. While in fact the actual experience is a kind of opening in spaciousness, here and now, which allows anything to come and go, with no resistance. It is not a state, it is just relaxing into a natural ease of being. It's already here. When people use the word enlightenment, it implies some point in time that you hop into or it happens to you and then you are there for ever more... I don't think this is a good way of thinking about it. Q: Then let me put the question this way: with Poonjaji you realized your true nature? CI: Yes, but what I saw was a recognition of something I already knew. I just hadn't been paying full attention to it. I hadn't given it it's due, it's importance, until I met Poonjaji. 1 didn't realize: this is IT. And then I saw it really was ~. And it became more and more IT, over time. Everybody has the potential of knowing and living in this vastness. Everyone has an awakened nature and is consciousness manifesting. It just has to do with what you are paying attention to. Some people are paying more attention to this ease of being. They are allowing their attention to rest essentially in this ease of being. Little bubbles on the screen may come by and sometimes they get a little attention, but that's about it. While normally people are lost in the bubbles on the screen; they focus on them. That's the difference. It is a switch of perception. Q: A switch in perception which usually takes place as a gradual process? CI: Well, it can happen totally instantaneously too. Some people recognize their true nature right away and that is where their attention rests from that moment on. But for many people it is a process of getting used to it. It is not a process of an occurring; it is a process of a consistency. It is a deepening and a slow relaxation into that recognition. .... It takes a moment to realize that the central problem is gone before you realize that all the other problems that were hanging on to it are also gone. The moment you recognize your true nature, it takes a moment to realize that all your problems were hanging on the central erroneous belief that you are somebody. When this belief is gone, all the problems are gone at the same time. To realize this is waking up fully from the dream. Q: How did the process of realizing your true nature develop for you? CI: When I first recognized this pure awareness, that nobody ever touches, which nothing ever sticks to, it was very thrilling to me. I thought that I would never again notice anything else. But the little bubbles, neuroses and all kinds of things came up again. They caught my attention for a little while. And then they fell away again and there was this spaciousness, vastness again. So on one hand I could say it has been a gradual process. But on the other hand I would say it has really gone quite quickly and continuously. And it still goes on and on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 Hi Jan, This snippet from an interview with Catherine Ingram gets to the heart of something I asked David Godman about in my recent interview with him. Catherine, like all the other students of Poonjaji's who hold themselves out as gurus (there seem to be about a million of them) seems to think that the glimpses she received with Poonjaji -- experiences of selflessness and nonduality and choicelessness and effortlessness and boundarylessness -- are the same thing as Self-realization. The first thing I always remember when I read something by one of Poonjaji's students who is acting like a guru is that Poonjai said that none of his students -- not one -- was Self- realized. (I asked David about this in the interview with him on Realization.org.) One of the most valuable things about David's books is that they offer an alternative idea of what Self-realization is. David wrote biographies (or ghostwrote autobiographies) of four Self-realized sages in Ramana Maharshi's lineage: Papaji, Lakshmana Swamy, Mathru Sri Sarada, and Annamalai Swami. Of the four, three of them make clear that Self-realization is what happens when the mind dissolves permanently in the heart center. This is an event that takes place in time in a way that seems almost physical or physiological. From that moment on, the mind is gone. Permanently gone. " You " can't get it back, it doesn't come and go, it's permanently eradicated. Compare Catherine's last remark in the snippet you quoted: " And it still goes on and on. " Only Annamalai Swami describes Self-realization in the " student-of-Poonjaji " way, as a glimpse that becomes habitual and eventually continuous. Of the three-heart center accounts in David's books, Sri Mathru Sarada's is the most vivid. And of course, Ramana Maharshi described his own realization the same way. Regards, Rob - " Jan Sultan " <swork <sworkalpha Tuesday, October 02, 2001 12:27 PM Enlightenment - Catherine Ingram > Any comments on the following? > > Jan > > ------- > > Q: What do you mean by 'it was done'? You became enlightened? > CI: Enlightenment is not a word I use. I prefer to call this a natural way > of being, the most natural actually. Or just radiant presence or dear > awareness, clear seeing. I don't use the word enlightenment because the > term itself is very loaded. To many people it implies a kind of Big Bang > after which you are eternally in a steady state called enlightenment. While > in fact the actual experience is a kind of opening in spaciousness, here > and now, which allows anything to come and go, with no resistance. It is > not a state, it is just relaxing into a natural ease of being. It's already > here. When people use the word enlightenment, it implies some point in time > that you hop into or it happens to you and then you are there for ever > more... I don't think this is a good way of thinking about it. > > Q: Then let me put the question this way: with Poonjaji you realized your > true nature? > CI: Yes, but what I saw was a recognition of something I already knew. I > just hadn't been paying full attention to it. I hadn't given it it's due, > it's importance, until I met Poonjaji. 1 didn't realize: this is IT. And > then I saw it really was ~. And it became more and more IT, over time. > Everybody has the potential of knowing and living in this vastness. > Everyone has an awakened nature and is consciousness manifesting. It just > has to do with what you are paying attention to. Some people are paying > more attention to this ease of being. They are allowing their attention to > rest essentially in this ease of being. Little bubbles on the screen may > come by and sometimes they get a little attention, but that's about it. > While normally people are lost in the bubbles on the screen; they focus on > them. That's the difference. It is a switch of perception. > > Q: A switch in perception which usually takes place as a gradual process? > CI: Well, it can happen totally instantaneously too. Some people recognize > their true nature right away and that is where their attention rests from > that moment on. But for many people it is a process of getting used to it. > It is not a process of an occurring; it is a process of a consistency. It > is a deepening and a slow relaxation into that recognition. .... It takes a > moment to realize that the central problem is gone before you realize that > all the other problems that were hanging on to it are also gone. The moment > you recognize your true nature, it takes a moment to realize that all your > problems were hanging on the central erroneous belief that you are > somebody. When this belief is gone, all the problems are gone at the same > time. To realize this is waking up fully from the dream. > > Q: How did the process of realizing your true nature develop for you? > CI: When I first recognized this pure awareness, that nobody ever touches, > which nothing ever sticks to, it was very thrilling to me. I thought that I > would never again notice anything else. But the little bubbles, neuroses > and all kinds of things came up again. They caught my attention for a > little while. And then they fell away again and there was this > spaciousness, vastness again. So on one hand I could say it has been a > gradual process. But on the other hand I would say it has really gone quite > quickly and continuously. And it still goes on and on. > > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 P.S. A complete (or more complete) version of the interview with Catherine Ingram is on the Web here: http://www.geocities.com/~cathing/amsterdam.html It's a pretty interesting interview. Maybe I should ask for permission to reprint it. Does the background art on that page instantly make people think of vaginal labia, or is just me? Regards, Rob - " Rob Sacks " <editor <Realization > Wednesday, October 03, 2001 10:26 AM Re: Enlightenment - Catherine Ingram > Hi Jan, > > This snippet from an interview with Catherine Ingram > gets to the heart of something I asked David Godman > about in my recent interview with him. Catherine, like > all the other students of Poonjaji's who hold themselves > out as gurus (there seem to be about a million of them) > seems to think that the glimpses she received with Poonjaji -- > experiences of selflessness and nonduality and > choicelessness and effortlessness and boundarylessness -- > are the same thing as Self-realization. > > The first thing I always remember when I read something by > one of Poonjaji's students who is acting like a guru is that > Poonjai said that none of his students -- not one -- was Self- > realized. (I asked David about this in the interview with > him on Realization.org.) > > One of the most valuable things about David's books is > that they offer an alternative idea of what Self-realization > is. > > David wrote biographies (or ghostwrote autobiographies) of > four Self-realized sages in Ramana Maharshi's lineage: > Papaji, Lakshmana Swamy, Mathru Sri Sarada, and Annamalai > Swami. Of the four, three of them make clear that Self-realization > is what happens when the mind dissolves permanently > in the heart center. This is an event that takes place in time in a way > that seems almost physical or physiological. From that moment > on, the mind is gone. Permanently gone. " You " can't get it back, > it doesn't come and go, it's permanently eradicated. > > Compare Catherine's last remark in the snippet you quoted: > > " And it still goes on and on. " > > Only Annamalai Swami describes Self-realization in the > " student-of-Poonjaji " way, as a glimpse that becomes > habitual and eventually continuous. > > Of the three-heart center accounts in David's books, Sri Mathru > Sarada's is the most vivid. And of course, Ramana Maharshi > described his own realization the same way. > > Regards, > > Rob - > " Jan Sultan " <swork > <sworkalpha > Tuesday, October 02, 2001 12:27 PM > Enlightenment - Catherine Ingram > > > > Any comments on the following? > > > > Jan > > > > ------- > > > > Q: What do you mean by 'it was done'? You became enlightened? > > CI: Enlightenment is not a word I use. I prefer to call this a natural way > > of being, the most natural actually. Or just radiant presence or dear > > awareness, clear seeing. I don't use the word enlightenment because the > > term itself is very loaded. To many people it implies a kind of Big Bang > > after which you are eternally in a steady state called enlightenment. While > > in fact the actual experience is a kind of opening in spaciousness, here > > and now, which allows anything to come and go, with no resistance. It is > > not a state, it is just relaxing into a natural ease of being. It's already > > here. When people use the word enlightenment, it implies some point in time > > that you hop into or it happens to you and then you are there for ever > > more... I don't think this is a good way of thinking about it. > > > > Q: Then let me put the question this way: with Poonjaji you realized your > > true nature? > > CI: Yes, but what I saw was a recognition of something I already knew. I > > just hadn't been paying full attention to it. I hadn't given it it's due, > > it's importance, until I met Poonjaji. 1 didn't realize: this is IT. And > > then I saw it really was ~. And it became more and more IT, over time. > > Everybody has the potential of knowing and living in this vastness. > > Everyone has an awakened nature and is consciousness manifesting. It just > > has to do with what you are paying attention to. Some people are paying > > more attention to this ease of being. They are allowing their attention to > > rest essentially in this ease of being. Little bubbles on the screen may > > come by and sometimes they get a little attention, but that's about it. > > While normally people are lost in the bubbles on the screen; they focus on > > them. That's the difference. It is a switch of perception. > > > > Q: A switch in perception which usually takes place as a gradual process? > > CI: Well, it can happen totally instantaneously too. Some people recognize > > their true nature right away and that is where their attention rests from > > that moment on. But for many people it is a process of getting used to it. > > It is not a process of an occurring; it is a process of a consistency. It > > is a deepening and a slow relaxation into that recognition. .... It takes a > > moment to realize that the central problem is gone before you realize that > > all the other problems that were hanging on to it are also gone. The moment > > you recognize your true nature, it takes a moment to realize that all your > > problems were hanging on the central erroneous belief that you are > > somebody. When this belief is gone, all the problems are gone at the same > > time. To realize this is waking up fully from the dream. > > > > Q: How did the process of realizing your true nature develop for you? > > CI: When I first recognized this pure awareness, that nobody ever touches, > > which nothing ever sticks to, it was very thrilling to me. I thought that I > > would never again notice anything else. But the little bubbles, neuroses > > and all kinds of things came up again. They caught my attention for a > > little while. And then they fell away again and there was this > > spaciousness, vastness again. So on one hand I could say it has been a > > gradual process. But on the other hand I would say it has really gone quite > > quickly and continuously. And it still goes on and on. > > > > > > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > > > Email addresses: > > Post message: Realization > > Un: Realization- > > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > > http://www.realization.org > > ................................................ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 Well if nothing else, that will be a good enough reason to go avisiting. Cheers Sandeep - Rob Sacks Realization Wednesday, October 03, 2001 08:42 PM Re: Enlightenment - Catherine Ingram P.S. A complete (or more complete) version ofthe interview with Catherine Ingram is on theWeb here:http://www.geocities.com/~cathing/amsterdam.htmlIt's a pretty interesting interview. Maybe I shouldask for permission to reprint it.Does the background art on that page instantly make people think of vaginal labia, or is just me?Regards,Rob- "Rob Sacks" <editor<Realization >Wednesday, October 03, 2001 10:26 AMRe: Enlightenment - Catherine Ingram> Hi Jan,> > This snippet from an interview with Catherine Ingram> gets to the heart of something I asked David Godman > about in my recent interview with him. Catherine, like > all the other students of Poonjaji's who hold themselves > out as gurus (there seem to be about a million of them) > seems to think that the glimpses she received with Poonjaji -- > experiences of selflessness and nonduality and > choicelessness and effortlessness and boundarylessness -- > are the same thing as Self-realization.> > The first thing I always remember when I read something by> one of Poonjaji's students who is acting like a guru is that> Poonjai said that none of his students -- not one -- was Self-> realized. (I asked David about this in the interview with > him on Realization.org.)> > One of the most valuable things about David's books is> that they offer an alternative idea of what Self-realization> is.> > David wrote biographies (or ghostwrote autobiographies) of> four Self-realized sages in Ramana Maharshi's lineage:> Papaji, Lakshmana Swamy, Mathru Sri Sarada, and Annamalai> Swami. Of the four, three of them make clear that Self-realization> is what happens when the mind dissolves permanently > in the heart center. This is an event that takes place in time in a way> that seems almost physical or physiological. From that moment> on, the mind is gone. Permanently gone. "You" can't get it back,> it doesn't come and go, it's permanently eradicated.> > Compare Catherine's last remark in the snippet you quoted:> > "And it still goes on and on."> > Only Annamalai Swami describes Self-realization in the > "student-of-Poonjaji" way, as a glimpse that becomes > habitual and eventually continuous.> > Of the three-heart center accounts in David's books, Sri Mathru> Sarada's is the most vivid. And of course, Ramana Maharshi> described his own realization the same way.> > Regards,> > Rob> > > > > > > - > "Jan Sultan" <swork> <sworkalpha> Tuesday, October 02, 2001 12:27 PM> Enlightenment - Catherine Ingram> > > > Any comments on the following?> > > > Jan> > > > -------> > > > Q: What do you mean by 'it was done'? You became enlightened?> > CI: Enlightenment is not a word I use. I prefer to call this a natural way > > of being, the most natural actually. Or just radiant presence or dear > > awareness, clear seeing. I don't use the word enlightenment because the > > term itself is very loaded. To many people it implies a kind of Big Bang > > after which you are eternally in a steady state called enlightenment. While > > in fact the actual experience is a kind of opening in spaciousness, here > > and now, which allows anything to come and go, with no resistance. It is > > not a state, it is just relaxing into a natural ease of being. It's already > > here. When people use the word enlightenment, it implies some point in time > > that you hop into or it happens to you and then you are there for ever > > more... I don't think this is a good way of thinking about it.> > > > Q: Then let me put the question this way: with Poonjaji you realized your > > true nature?> > CI: Yes, but what I saw was a recognition of something I already knew. I > > just hadn't been paying full attention to it. I hadn't given it it's due, > > it's importance, until I met Poonjaji. 1 didn't realize: this is IT. And > > then I saw it really was ~. And it became more and more IT, over time. > > Everybody has the potential of knowing and living in this vastness. > > Everyone has an awakened nature and is consciousness manifesting. It just > > has to do with what you are paying attention to. Some people are paying > > more attention to this ease of being. They are allowing their attention to > > rest essentially in this ease of being. Little bubbles on the screen may > > come by and sometimes they get a little attention, but that's about it. > > While normally people are lost in the bubbles on the screen; they focus on > > them. That's the difference. It is a switch of perception.> > > > Q: A switch in perception which usually takes place as a gradual process?> > CI: Well, it can happen totally instantaneously too. Some people recognize > > their true nature right away and that is where their attention rests from > > that moment on. But for many people it is a process of getting used to it. > > It is not a process of an occurring; it is a process of a consistency. It > > is a deepening and a slow relaxation into that recognition. .... It takes a > > moment to realize that the central problem is gone before you realize that > > all the other problems that were hanging on to it are also gone. The moment > > you recognize your true nature, it takes a moment to realize that all your > > problems were hanging on the central erroneous belief that you are > > somebody. When this belief is gone, all the problems are gone at the same > > time. To realize this is waking up fully from the dream.> > > > Q: How did the process of realizing your true nature develop for you?> > CI: When I first recognized this pure awareness, that nobody ever touches, > > which nothing ever sticks to, it was very thrilling to me. I thought that I > > would never again notice anything else. But the little bubbles, neuroses > > and all kinds of things came up again. They caught my attention for a > > little while. And then they fell away again and there was this > > spaciousness, vastness again. So on one hand I could say it has been a > > gradual process. But on the other hand I would say it has really gone quite > > quickly and continuously. And it still goes on and on.> > > > > > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........> > > > Email addresses:> > Post message: Realization > > Un: Realization- > > Our web address: http://www.realization.org> > > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving> > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on> > http://www.realization.org> > ................................................ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 <<<Does the background art on that page instantly make people think of vaginal labia, or is just me?>>> teeheeeheeee <smirk> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2001 Report Share Posted October 4, 2001 A drop of experience is worth more than an ocean of mind stuff. Murali Realization, " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > Hi Jan, > > This snippet from an interview with Catherine Ingram > gets to the heart of something I asked David Godman > > > > Compare Catherine's last remark in the snippet you quoted: > " And it still goes on and on. " > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2001 Report Share Posted October 4, 2001 Hi Murali, And a drop of experience is not mind stuff? Just wondering Cheers Sandeep - murali Realization Thursday, October 04, 2001 11:31 AM Re: Enlightenment - Catherine Ingram A drop of experience is worth more than an ocean of mind stuff.MuraliRealization, "Rob Sacks" <editor@r...> wrote:> Hi Jan,> > This snippet from an interview with Catherine Ingram> gets to the heart of something I asked David Godman >>>> Compare Catherine's last remark in the snippet you quoted:> "And it still goes on and on."> ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2001 Report Share Posted October 4, 2001 How can it be? Experience of the real and existence of the mind are mutually exclusive (so they say!). You don't need a mind during sleep to exclaim later that the sleeping was peaceful. Murali Realization, " Sandeep Chatterjee " <sandeepc@b...> wrote: > Hi Murali, > > And a drop of experience is not mind stuff? > > Just wondering > > > Cheers > > Sandeep > > > - > murali@g... > Realization > Thursday, October 04, 2001 11:31 AM > Re: Enlightenment - Catherine Ingram > > > A drop of experience is worth more than an ocean of mind stuff. > > > Murali > > > > Realization, " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > > Hi Jan, > > > > This snippet from an interview with Catherine Ingram > > gets to the heart of something I asked David Godman > > > > > > > > Compare Catherine's last remark in the snippet you quoted: > > " And it still goes on and on. " > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2001 Report Share Posted October 4, 2001 Experience of the real is another projection of the mind about the real. For all experiences, no matter how profound or how mundane, can only be within phenomenality. That which is not an experience, aaah well........ Cheers Sandeep - murali Realization Thursday, October 04, 2001 12:35 PM Re: Enlightenment - Catherine Ingram How can it be? Experience of the real and existence of the mind are mutually exclusive (so they say!).You don't need a mind during sleep to exclaim later that the sleeping was peaceful.MuraliRealization, "Sandeep Chatterjee" <sandeepc@b...> wrote:> Hi Murali,> > And a drop of experience is not mind stuff?> > Just wondering> > > Cheers> > Sandeep> > > - > murali@g... > Realization > Thursday, October 04, 2001 11:31 AM> Re: Enlightenment - Catherine Ingram> > > A drop of experience is worth more than an ocean of mind stuff.> > > Murali Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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