Non-duality in Islam

October 7, 2001

Hazarat Ali was Prophet Mohammed's son-in-law. This shows that non-duality

has been there in Islam from it's birth.

28.

The beginning, the end, the manifest and the hidden.

The seer and the listener, all is Him,

He is in everything yet He is beyond,

there is nothing else, everything is Him;

abandon the duality of me and you,

see one, there aren't two at all,

understand this and disappear in it;

when you are not, then truly He is.

HAZRAT ALI

http://www.globale.net/~heritage/granths/kalamang.html

______________________

With Love,

Cyber Dervish

````````````````````````````````````````

October 7, 2001

Hi Jan,

Thank you for this.

Now if only the dudes in the Al-Quieda outfit could understand this.

Does Osama have an E Mail address?

We should get him on this realization-list and let loose some of the dudes here, on him.

Confuse the hell out of him.

Cheers

Sandeep

-

Jan Sultan

sworkalpha

Sunday, October 07, 2001 06:32 PM

Non-duality in Islam

Hazarat Ali was Prophet Mohammed's son-in-law. This shows that non-duality has been there in Islam from it's birth.28.The beginning, the end, the manifest and the hidden.The seer and the listener, all is Him,He is in everything yet He is beyond,there is nothing else, everything is Him;abandon the duality of me and you,see one, there aren't two at all,understand this and disappear in it;when you are not, then truly He is.HAZRAT ALIhttp://www.globale.net/~heritage/granths/kalamang.html

October 7, 2001

Realization, " Sandeep Chatterjee " <sandeepc@b...> wrote:

> Hi Jan,

>

> Thank you for this.

> Now if only the dudes in the Al-Quieda outfit could understand this.

> Does Osama have an E Mail address?

> We should get him on this realization-list and let loose some of

the dudes here, on him.

> Confuse the hell out of him.

>

> Cheers

>

> Sandeep

>

Hi Sandeep'

Unfortunately the followers of the philosophy of Hazarat Ali and

other Sufis have been under attack from that time by people who do

not understand non-duality. Mansoor Hallaj was tortured just for such

views!

with Love'

Jan

October 8, 2001

Hi Sandeep,

Did you read Osama's speech yesterday?

There is some serious heavy-duty dualism in

that man's mind. I don't know if this list is

up to the task.

Allahu akbar!

(Thanks to Gary for the signature line.)

Rob

-

<swork

Monday, October 08, 2001 12:36 AM

Re: Non-duality in Islam

> Realization, " Sandeep Chatterjee " <sandeepc@b...> wrote:

> > Hi Jan,

> >

> > Thank you for this.

> > Now if only the dudes in the Al-Quieda outfit could understand this.

> > Does Osama have an E Mail address?

> > We should get him on this realization-list and let loose some of

> the dudes here, on him.

> > Confuse the hell out of him.

> >

> > Cheers

> >

> > Sandeep

> >

>

> Hi Sandeep'

>

> Unfortunately the followers of the philosophy of Hazarat Ali and

> other Sufis have been under attack from that time by people who do

> not understand non-duality. Mansoor Hallaj was tortured just for such

> views!

>

> with Love'

>

> Jan

>

October 8, 2001

Yes, saw it on TV, run by the Qatar TV channel, (can't get their name)

One can see the charisma which would attract jehadis to commit suicide attacks for him.

I don't think, we have seen the end of Osama Ben Laden.

We already have today a SAS aircraft colliding with a smaller plane in Milan airport, Italy, killing some 100 odd people.

I have a feeling that the explanation of the incident being an accident, smells of a cover up, to avoid a public panic spreading, all over.

Take care you guys, wherever you are.

Cheers

Sandeep

-

Rob Sacks

Realization

Monday, October 08, 2001 08:56 PM

Re: Re: Non-duality in Islam

Hi Sandeep,Did you read Osama's speech yesterday? There is some serious heavy-duty dualism in that man's mind. I don't know if this list isup to the task.Allahu akbar!(Thanks to Gary for the signature line.)Rob- <swork<Realization >Monday, October 08, 2001 12:36 AM Re: Non-duality in Islam> Realization, "Sandeep Chatterjee" <sandeepc@b...> wrote:> > Hi Jan,> > > > Thank you for this.> > Now if only the dudes in the Al-Quieda outfit could understand this.> > Does Osama have an E Mail address?> > We should get him on this realization-list and let loose some of > the dudes here, on him.> > Confuse the hell out of him.> > > > > > Cheers> > > > Sandeep> > > > Hi Sandeep'> > Unfortunately the followers of the philosophy of Hazarat Ali and > other Sufis have been under attack from that time by people who do > not understand non-duality. Mansoor Hallaj was tortured just for such > views!> > with Love'> > Jan> ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................

October 8, 2001

Hi,

I thought the most effective part of his speech was

when he said that the infidels had killed (were killing?)

one million Iraqi children with the embargo.

> We already have today a SAS aircraft colliding with

> a smaller plane in Milan airport, Italy, killing some 100

> odd people. I have a feeling that the explanation of the

> incident being an accident, smells of a cover up, to

> avoid a public panic spreading, all over.

Yes, it could be. Also the flight from Israel to Russia

the other day.

And what about the attack in Kashmir on October 1?

I was astonished to see how little attention it got in

the American press.

Where are you on globe, Sandeep?

Rob

-

Sandeep Chatterjee

Realization

Monday, October 08, 2001 12:21 PM

Re: Re: Non-duality in Islam

Yes, saw it on TV, run by the Qatar TV channel, (can't get their name)

One can see the charisma which would attract jehadis to commit suicide attacks for him.

I don't think, we have seen the end of Osama Ben Laden.

We already have today a SAS aircraft colliding with a smaller plane in Milan airport, Italy, killing some 100 odd people.

I have a feeling that the explanation of the incident being an accident, smells of a cover up, to avoid a public panic spreading, all over.

Take care you guys, wherever you are.

Cheers

Sandeep

-

Rob Sacks

Realization

Monday, October 08, 2001 08:56 PM

Re: Re: Non-duality in Islam

Hi Sandeep,Did you read Osama's speech yesterday? There is some serious heavy-duty dualism in that man's mind. I don't know if this list isup to the task.Allahu akbar!(Thanks to Gary for the signature line.)Rob- <swork<Realization >Monday, October 08, 2001 12:36 AM Re: Non-duality in Islam> Realization, "Sandeep Chatterjee" <sandeepc@b...> wrote:> > Hi Jan,> > > > Thank you for this.> > Now if only the dudes in the Al-Quieda outfit could understand this.> > Does Osama have an E Mail address?> > We should get him on this realization-list and let loose some of > the dudes here, on him.> > Confuse the hell out of him.> > > > > > Cheers> > > > Sandeep> > > > Hi Sandeep'> > Unfortunately the followers of the philosophy of Hazarat Ali and > other Sufis have been under attack from that time by people who do > not understand non-duality. Mansoor Hallaj was tortured just for such > views!> > with Love'> > Jan> ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................

October 8, 2001

Hi Rob,

-

Rob Sacks

Realization

Monday, October 08, 2001 09:53 PM

Re: Re: Non-duality in Islam

Hi,

I thought the most effective part of his speech was

when he said that the infidels had killed (were killing?)

one million Iraqi children with the embargo.

--------

Yes, sometime back...

San:

How to incubate "Osamas".......Lesley Stahl, 60 Minutes:"We have heard that a half million children have died [because of sanctionsagainst Iraq]. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima and youknow, is the price worth it?"Madeleine Albright:"I think this is a very hard choice, but we think the price is worth it."---

> We already have today a SAS aircraft colliding with

> a smaller plane in Milan airport, Italy, killing some 100

> odd people. I have a feeling that the explanation of the

> incident being an accident, smells of a cover up, to

> avoid a public panic spreading, all over.

Yes, it could be. Also the flight from Israel to Russia

the other day.

And what about the attack in Kashmir on October 1?

I was astonished to see how little attention it got in

the American press.

San:

Yes 42 people were killed and maybe another 30 grievously injured.

Didn't amount to much.

You see, it's somewhere out there, not back home.

-----

Where are you on globe, Sandeep?

----

Bombay, India.

Where, about 8 years back, we had a terrorist attack on 8-9 high rise buildings, about 30 odd floors each, killing around 5,000 people and injuring around the same additionally.

The world did not launch any cruise missiles, then.

And Bush and Blair are at pains to explain that it is not a clash of civilization, but for freedom and protection of a way of Life.

Oh, the beauty of Life.

Cheers

Sandeep

October 8, 2001

Hi Sandeep,

> "I think this is a very hard choice, but we think

> the price is worth it." -- Madeleine Albright

Oh! Oh! Don't get me started on Madeleine Albright. The

only good thing to be said for her is that God made her

face look evil to make her nature more obvious. Clinton,

Albright, and Berger -- what a team! One of the times

that my country most astonished me was when the three

of them blew up the Sudanese pharmaceutical factory -- a

place that makes medicine! -- secretly, without consulting

the relevant branches of the government, and nobody

in this country cared, and later, when it became apparent

that they had no evidence at all that the place made

nerve gas, it was still the case that nobody cared.

> Where, about 8 years back, we had a terrorist attack on

> 8-9 high rise buildings, about 30 odd floors each, killing

> around 5,000 people and injuring around the same additionally.

> The world did not launch any cruise missiles, then.

I didn't know this.

Bombay is a beautiful city. I was there for a week in 1985.

Would love to visit again.

> You see, it's somewhere out there, not back home.

Yes but sometimes the U.S. press develops a keen

interest in certain events in certain countries. India seems

always to be off the radar here. China, in contrast, gets

a huge amount of attention here. Why is this? I have

no idea.

The Kashmir attack is so squarely on the news target these

days that it seems impossible to ignore it. On the other hand,

it doesn't fit the story line -- the U.S. is probably refraining

from pressuring the Pakastani government from doing anything,

so it interferes with the idea that we are universally cracking

down on terrorism. But the U.S. press usually likes that kind

of story. "Internal contradictions of Bush policy" blah blah.

> And Bush and Blair are at pains to explain that it is not a clash

> of civilization, but for freedom and protection of a way of Life.

It goes against the deepest psychic roots of Western culture

to admit that cultures are different and that our values are

products of our own culture rather than universal. To face the

fact that this has something to do with Islam and with what happens

when Islam bumps up against Hinduism and Christianity and

Buddhism and Judaism... no, it cannot be recognized. Even

when the Taliban destroys statues of Buddha, it cannot be

recognized.

It would be easier to face the fact that there are no persons!

> Oh, the beauty of Life.

Allahu Akbar!

Rob

Original Message -----

Sandeep Chatterjee

Realization

Monday, October 08, 2001 12:49 PM

Re: Re: Non-duality in Islam

Hi Rob,

-

Rob Sacks

Realization

Monday, October 08, 2001 09:53 PM

Re: Re: Non-duality in Islam

....

October 8, 2001

A lot of accidents lately.

Like the random anthrax poisoning,

and the accidental rocket that hit

a plane full of Israeli Russian immigrants.

Of course, with the notion that there is

no maker of a notion, there is no difference

between accident and on-purpose.

Although, I don't think that such notion will

lead George Bush to treat terrorist

activities as equal to " natural " disasters,

and simply offer relief to the victims.

Nor will he decide that there is no such

thing as a victim, and thus end the

humanitarian-aid drops.

Nor will he decide that all things being

equally conceptual, nothing is to be

done or not-done about anything.

(You have to watch out for this nondual-think.

It has the potential to disrupt politics-as-usual,

not to mention it's likely to make for some very

uninspiring speeches).

Not a nondual thought in my head,

-- Dan

--- Sandeep Chatterjee <sandeepc

wrote:

> Yes, saw it on TV, run by the Qatar TV channel,

> (can't get their name)

>

> One can see the charisma which would attract jehadis

> to commit suicide attacks for him.

>

> I don't think, we have seen the end of Osama Ben

> Laden.

>

> We already have today a SAS aircraft colliding with

> a smaller plane in Milan airport, Italy, killing

> some 100 odd people.

> I have a feeling that the explanation of the

> incident being an accident, smells of a cover up, to

> avoid a public panic spreading, all over.

>

> Take care you guys, wherever you are.

>

> Cheers

>

> Sandeep

> -

> Rob Sacks

> Realization

> Monday, October 08, 2001 08:56 PM

> Re: Re: Non-duality in

> Islam

>

> Hi Sandeep,

>

> Did you read Osama's speech yesterday?

> There is some serious heavy-duty dualism in

> that man's mind. I don't know if this list is

> up to the task.

>

> Allahu akbar!

>

> (Thanks to Gary for the signature line.)

>

> Rob

>

> -

> <swork

> <Realization >

> Monday, October 08, 2001 12:36 AM

> Re: Non-duality in Islam

>

> > Realization, " Sandeep Chatterjee "

> <sandeepc@b...> wrote:

> > > Hi Jan,

> > >

> > > Thank you for this.

> > > Now if only the dudes in the Al-Quieda outfit

> could understand this.

> > > Does Osama have an E Mail address?

> > > We should get him on this realization-list and

> let loose some of

> > the dudes here, on him.

> > > Confuse the hell out of him.

> > >

> > > Cheers

> > >

> > > Sandeep

> > >

> >

> > Hi Sandeep'

> >

> > Unfortunately the followers of the philosophy of

> Hazarat Ali and

> > other Sufis have been under attack from that

> time by people who do

> > not understand non-duality. Mansoor Hallaj was

> tortured just for such

> > views!

> >

> > with Love'

> >

> > Jan

> >

>

October 9, 2001

Hiya Rob,

-

Rob Sacks

Realization

Monday, October 08, 2001 11:09 PM

Re: Re: Non-duality in Islam

Hi Sandeep,

> "I think this is a very hard choice, but we think

> the price is worth it." -- Madeleine Albright

Oh! Oh! Don't get me started on Madeleine Albright. The

only good thing to be said for her is that God made her

face look evil to make her nature more obvious.

San:

LOL.

The US didn't need to browbeat anybody with Cruise missiles or anything Stealth bombers during that administration.

Just threaten to let loose MA and everybody signed on the dotted lines.

-----

Clinton,

Albright, and Berger -- what a team! One of the times

that my country most astonished me was when the three

of them blew up the Sudanese pharmaceutical factory -- a

place that makes medicine! -- secretly, without consulting

the relevant branches of the government, and nobody

in this country cared, and later, when it became apparent

that they had no evidence at all that the place made

nerve gas, it was still the case that nobody cared.

------

San:

Yes.

And it's not just the US.

Every nation works from, primarily their own interests first.

And then couches it in the language of freedom, democracy, values, religion etc etc.

Just that since if US sneezes, the whole world catches cold, the US actions are far more catalytic and encompassing.

> Where, about 8 years back, we had a terrorist attack on

> 8-9 high rise buildings, about 30 odd floors each, killing

> around 5,000 people and injuring around the same additionally.

> The world did not launch any cruise missiles, then.

I didn't know this.

San:

Happened in 1993.

I was on the 21st floor of one such building.

-------

Bombay is a beautiful city. I was there for a week in 1985.

Would love to visit again.

San:

Is that so?

In what connection was that visit?

The Bombay of 1985 was indeed a high voltage city and yet retaining it's charm.

However since then the population has trebled and infrastructure actually reduced.

So it's now one big mess and a total chaos.

> You see, it's somewhere out there, not back home.

Yes but sometimes the U.S. press develops a keen

interest in certain events in certain countries. India seems

always to be off the radar here. China, in contrast, gets

a huge amount of attention here. Why is this? I have

no idea.

San:

Around USD 250 Billion investment by the US industry in China.

It took India 2 decades to understand that USD 250 Billion outweighs any Tinamenn Square, Human rights, aggressive rhetoric, Tibet, Taiwan, etc etc.

----------

The Kashmir attack is so squarely on the news target these

days that it seems impossible to ignore it. On the other hand,

it doesn't fit the story line -- the U.S. is probably refraining

from pressuring the Pakastani government from doing anything,

so it interferes with the idea that we are universally cracking

down on terrorism.

San:

Absolutely.

And as soon as the means adopted are in discordance with the end (at least the stated ends) you have a problem.

For example, how will you differentiate between a good terrorist attack and a bad terrorist attack?

So the same Taliban when they were kicking the Soviet ass were our good boys, there was a even a movie- Rambo-III where Sylvester Stallone joins up the Afghani mujhadeens to wipe out a Soviet command in Afghanistan etc etc.

They were the good boys, when they were stirring up things in Chechnya and making it difficult for the Russians.

Look the other way, when from that same hub of training centers, terrorists became freedom fighters in Kashmir and over 30,000 lives have been lost there, in the last decade or so.

Or Lebanon or Syria or Palestine.

Take Saddam Hussein, THE bad boy till OBL dethroned him.

He was "our" guy in the Middle East so long he was undertaking among other means, germ warfare on the Iranians who had to be taught a lesson.

Now Iran is a good guy, because they can't stand the Taliban(Shia versus Sunni) and Saddam Hussein became too greedy over Kuwaiti spoils.(So long Saddam was reasonable, the Oil Majors, were quite happy for him to have his hand in the Kuwaiti till. The real issue of the Gulf war was that Saddam wanted to re-write the percentages and then when it was not forthcoming decided to go the full hog)

When the tiger you are riding looks up and snaps at your ankle, then how to get off the ride?

This whole thing is spinning out into something globally encompassing and if the US thinks getting OBL and the el-Queda network is the end of it, it is, as usual, sadly mistaken.

I have lived with the Muslim psyche for decades.

The same zealousness moves into the fana of ecstasy and you have an 'Omar Khyayam" and it is the same zealousness which moves into the fana of jihad and you have an "Osama Ben Laden".

There is no in-between states.

That's the beauty and the tragedy.

A solution floating about on the Web.

Don't kill Osmana Ben Laden for that will make him a martyr and you will a dozen of OBLs incubating.

Don't jail Osama Ben Laden, for you will then have hijackings, kidnappings, suicide bombers for his release.

Capture him, get a total sex-change operation done, make him a woman and send "her" to live under the Taliban way of life.

No TV, no weapons, no media coverage (only under the hijab), no moving out of the house AND NO SPEECHES.

The last, not necessarily a bad thing, if "edicted" on all wives, in all cultures.

LOL.

> But the U.S. press usually likes that kind

>of story. "Internal contradictions of Bush policy" blah blah.

San:

Rob, you know what has happened.

The American psyche has been shaken.

First of all America, despite the local crime rate, had never seen a violence of this magnitude in their back-yard, something which many parts of the globe have been living with, for years.

Secondly the sense of security which the two Oceans on either side and Technology gave America, that has been breached.

Thirdly, it's no longer "somewhere out there".

The phrase "It's a Global Village" has really come to roost.

And it is this, insecurity which is running the US press as well as the US Government.

I was amused when the CNN anchor man commenting on the OBL's Video-statement carried by now all the networks, all over, says it was "spine chilling".

> And Bush and Blair are at pains to explain that it is not a clash

> of civilization, but for freedom and protection of a way of Life.

It goes against the deepest psychic roots of Western culture

to admit that cultures are different and that our values are

products of our own culture rather than universal. To face the

fact that this has something to do with Islam and with what happens

when Islam bumps up against Hinduism and Christianity and

Buddhism and Judaism... no, it cannot be recognized. Even

when the Taliban destroys statues of Buddha, it cannot be

recognized.

San:

Yes.

And all this sound and fury is so hilarious, if you consider the fact that things which are so important, so crucial, that lives can be laid down, whether we speak of Bush or Osama Ben Laden are products of 50, 100, 500 or even a 1000 years.

Not even a twinkle in the eye of eternity.

As an example.

Thousands of lives have been lost over Jerusalem in the Middle East, basically on the question of claim of ownership of the land.

And the truth is , that very land has buried 7 civilizations.

Which lineage of which civilization is to claim ownership, now ?

India claims Kashmir as an internal part of Indian statehood.

Pakistan which is nothing but a divorced part of India, disputes this and abets killing of thousands over this contention.

Hindu Indians which comprise 90% of the population and 100% Pakistan, have no loci-standi over any part of the Indian sub-continent, because they are originally from central Asia, eg the Aryan race.

It's the Dravidians who now inhabit South India, after being defeated by the Aryans and pushed down south, who could legitimately claim an ownership.

And even they, are the descendants from Africa, so really it is that African "she", who some couple of Million years stirred and changed her neighborhood scene, who can lay a claim on anything anywhere.

So let's get the Kenyans (or wherever the African 'mother" was discovered) to claim Kashmir, Jerusalem, Belfast, New York, Disney land etc.

-------

It would be easier to face the fact that there are no persons!

LOL.

Makes Life simpler.

> Oh, the beauty of Life.

Allahu Akbar!

La ill laa he allah ( May have made a mess of it and now might invite some fatwas from our dear friends)

Cheers

Sandeep

October 10, 2001

Howdy Sandeep,

> Every nation works from, primarily their own

> interests first. And then couches it in the language

> of freedom, democracy, values, religion etc etc.

I don't think this is true. Dictatorships act mainly

in the interests of the dictators who rule them. The

behavior of the Iraqi government for the last

ten years has been quite antithetical to the

interests of the Iraqi people.

Your country, and mine, may act primarily from

their own interests. But that is because they

are democracies.

Prattlelingly,

Rob

-

Sandeep Chatterjee

Realization

Tuesday, October 09, 2001 1:19 AM