Guest guest Posted October 10, 2001 Report Share Posted October 10, 2001 P.S. Slip of the typing fingers. When I wrote, "This is the only country on earth made almost entirely by immigrants," I meant to say, "made almost entirely by a continuing stream of immigrants." My point is that the U.S. never closed the doors for very long. - Rob Sacks Realization Wednesday, October 10, 2001 10:19 AM Re: Re: Non-duality in Islam / Sandeep Howdy dear friends, Many fascinating things in this thread but the press of time confines me to complacency. > Dan: Is "fashioned" a polite way of saying,> "became complacent, self-satisfied, and used> to living large and protected,> in a somewhat oblivious style"? Our complacency seems to me to be a bit complicated. The most important way it's true is illustrated by the fact that we have been bombing Iraq almost every day for eight -- nine? -- years, but when the WTC was attacked, everyone said "Hey, we're at war now!" From the perspective of the people we've been bombing -- and Al Qaeda considers itself to be among them -- we've been at war for a long time. But on the other hand, there are some ways that we are the opposite of complacent. For example, the degree to which we criticize ourselves for our racism, when we are among the less-racist countries. And the fact that we have maintained enough military power to defend ourselves from any possible threat since World War II. We are the only democracy that has done so. It is interesting that despite all the talk of Colin Powell's wonderful alliance, only three countries are actually preparing to fight in Afghanistan: Britain, Russia, and the U.S. The same three that fought Hitler. > Because the US Co was under the impression that > Afghanistan was a province of India and the CEO > did not want to take any chance whatsoever. If he thinks that today, he's a moron, and not typical of anyone here. But if he thought that before 9/11, so what? Are Indians knowledgeable about the geography of South America? There are 189 nations in the U.N. How many of us can name half of them? The most important open secret about the U.S., it seems to me, is that nearly everyone in the U.S. (close to 90 percent) is either a voluntary immigrant or the child, grandchild, etc. of voluntary immigrants. These immigrants, who put a deep stamp on our culture, deliberatey turned their backs on a piece of the world when they came here (most often crossing the ocean to leave the "Old World" for the "New World".) This is a nation of people who live where they do because of disdain or contempt or disinterest in at least one part of the outside world. > San: > As an example, you know in the I.T. sector, in > the last 5-8 years there has been an exodus > of Indian computer software professionals from > India to the US, out of sheer necessity for "bodies" > and also the fact that the US companies have > to pay peanuts compared to what they would > have to pay in recruiting an all-American. The exodus cannot be explained by the fact that the salaries are peanuts by American standards. The explanation has to be what motivates the people to exit. Surely the exodus is explained by the fact that the salaries are large by Indian standards, or by some other aspect of life in the U.S. that the employees find attractive. > All that equal opportunity, no discrimination > etc etc only applicable within the cocoon > members. If you mean that the salary differential is an example of discrimination, I don't buy it. Markets don't work that way. Or maybe you are thinking of something else. Japanese-Americans have the highest incomes of any ethnic group in the U.S., despite the fact that they have been here, on average, for only three or four generations. (Jewish-Americans are second. British-Americans, who constitute, surprisingly, only about 15 percent of Americans, are way down the list, at about 100 percent of the mean family income: merely average.) Is your criticism not tempered by the fact that we allow a million people a year to join the cocoon, most of them from third-world countries including India? What more can we do? What country does more? This is the only country on earth made almost entirely by immigrants. To attack *this* country for excluding others seems, well, sorry, but it seems hilarious to me. India is still dealing with the inequalities established by the Aryan invasion several thousand years ago. Flag-wavingly, Rob - Sandeep Chatterjee Realization Tuesday, October 09, 2001 11:06 PM Re: Re: Non-duality in Islam / Sandeep Hiya Dan, - d b Realization Wednesday, October 10, 2001 01:16 AM Re: Non-duality in Islam / Sandeep > San:> > Yes I was aware of that.> Just was commenting in the last 150 years or so,> during which period, the American psyche really got> fashioned.Dan: Is "fashioned" a polite way of saying, "became complacent, self-satisfied, and used to living large and protected, in a somewhat oblivious style"? San: Yes. A cocoon. Mind you, within the cocoon, tremendous energy, self confidence, "just do it", "can do-gung-ho", which is wonderful to observe, during my visits to the US. As an example, you know in the I.T. sector, in the last 5-8 years there has been an exodus of Indian computer software professionals from India to the US, out of sheer necessity for "bodies" and also the fact that the US companies have to pay peanuts compared to what they would have to pay in recruiting an all-American.(All that equal opportunity, no discrimination etc etc only applicable within the cocoon members) Ergo there has been a mushrooming of Agencies in India, which locate and recruit on behalf of US companies. I use few of them, for my needs and one of them told me last night, that his biggest client in the US, have asked for a written declaration that none of the candidates would be from Afghanistan.Why?Because the US Co was under the impression that Afghanistan was a province of India and the CEO did not want to take any chance whatsoever. > San:> > Yes.> Noticed Pakistan, is boiling.Dan: Take one pot of boiling Pakistan, add a million refugees and see what happens next to the mixture? I anticipate explosion. > So is Indonesia, the country with the maximum> Muslim population.> And remarkably demonstrations in UK and USA> against the war. Now that's interesting, I thought> the war had an approval rating in the high nineties> in the US.Dan: I'm sure that approval rating is inevitable under the circumstances, and people who don't like the inevitability of war are always around, inevitably, too, and will inevitably protest just about any war that happens, which they get to do here :-) Yes. Someone must wonder at the logic of sending a Million dollar Cruise missile to blow up a 5 dollat tent in order to kick some camel's ass. Meanwhile Osama Ben Laden and Omar Abdullah seems to be chewing blades of grass or poppy seeds, well entrenched somewhere and once in a while giving out interviews on the El Jareeza network. > > What's your reading on the 2 cases of Anthrax> poisoning deaths in Florida, Dan?D: I'm not sure, but I imagine there's a guy somewhere licking a stamp and saying, "that experiment worked pretty well ..."> And what is forgotten is that in pulling that> blade of grass to hoard up my haystack, the Universe> does get shaken, producing what we have seen/are> seeing.D: Sure, not that such forgetting could have happened some other way ... Absolutely The probability of the world order remaining in the form it has been, or even remaining at all, being an all time low, how else could such a possibility come to light? Cheers Sandeep..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2001 Report Share Posted October 10, 2001 Hi Sandeep, > And remarkably demonstrations in UK and USA > against the war. Normal pattern. Democracies resist going to war (except in cases like Kosovo where the power is so one-sided that the attacking country takes no risk and makes no palpable sacrifice). Look at Europe in the 30s while Hitler sharpened his knives. Also, many American intellectuals blame America for everything that happens in the world. Perfect affinity with the Arab view. > Now that's interesting, I thought the war had an > approval rating in the high nineties in the US. The anti-war sentiment is centered inside the universities, among intellectuals, in Hollywood, etc. A small but disproportionately visible and influential group. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2001 Report Share Posted October 10, 2001 Dear Sandeep, I'm sorry I waved my flag at you! > First of all Rob, this is no flag versus flag. > There is no flag owned at this end. > God only knows the amount of hilarity that one can > find in India and Indian ethos. I don't really take this that seriously, I just feel like ranting. Apologies for doing it in your direction. The thing is, I spent most of my life as a political radical. I thought the U.S. was the world imperialist hegemon and that it was responsible for all evil in the world. Then one day I decided that this isn't true. Since then I love to rant against my former opinions and do so at the least excuse. > However in reality, what's the score, Rob? > And what would you think would be the answer, if > I posed the same question to a black, to a Mexican, > to a Philipino, to an Arab, in the US? If it were anybody else but you, I would say, what makes you assume I'm none of those things? But you can probably see me. I think the answer such people would give would depend on how much they've traveled. I recently rode in a New York taxicab with a Moroccan driver who had lived previously for several years in both Paris and Germany, and he told me that he finds it funny that Americans think the U.S. is so terribly racist. "They have no idea," he said, shaking his head and laughing. (He think he moved the conversation onto that topic, not me, but not sure.) I didn't say there isn't any racism here, I just said it's relatively mild on the scale that is encountered world wide. But you know, even a white person has opportunities to assess the degree of racism against non-whites. For example, when I was in Zimbabwe, I was constantly treated by black people as if I were incredibly important simply because I was white. And I could see how the so-called "colored" folks tried to sort of ... cozy up to me? I don't know how to describe it. The whole dynamic was incredibly strange. It was plain from this that racism is much more intense there than in the U.S. (This was the former Rhodesia, long saddled with an apartheid system, ten years after it was liberated.) And the worst instance of racism I've ever seen was in Germany, where I watched a Turkish guest-worker be dreadfully abused in a hospital emergency room. I was simply a bystander, I could have been of any background. > There are as many idiots in India as that American CEO. NOOOOO! I romanticize India, I idealize it. Don't tell me this! > Would you characterize that statement as applicable > to the 90% Americans, who as you say are either > voluntary immigrants or descendants of one? Historically it has been true about most of the groups. One of the ways this can be seen is the perennial American family story of the first generation trying to force the second generation to learn the parent's native language, and almost always failing. The biggest effort was made by the wave of German immigrants. They set up whole towns, German-language newspapers, had their own schools. It all dissolved. (Except for some very small religious communities.) The grandchildren weren't interested. People really do get assimilated here. That has been the pattern. When the Irish arrived, they were regarded as being of a different race. (Back then, Celts and Anglo-Saxons were different races, supposedly.) When the Italians arrived, they were regarded as "black." Nobody even remembers these things anymore. You have to become interested in the history of immigration to find out. Same story with every group who came voluntarily. However, I suspect it will be different with the new immigrants from Latin America, especially Mexicans, because they can travel back and forth so easily. We will see. > What about the black slaves "shanghaied" > from Africa to the USA to reclaim land? Exactly, they are the big exception. That's why I had to say "voluntary immigrants." (But if you mean by reclaim land that they want to go home to Africa, there was never any interest. Liberia was established for just that purpose -- hardly anybody went.) But this group provides a sort of natural experiment that proves how important this culture-of-immigration stuff is. There are about 35 million black Americans. Of them, two million came voluntarily -- they are also the descendents of slaves, but they immigrated here voluntarily from the West Indies. Their ancestors were slaves in the West Indies, not here. By every sociological indicator, this "voluntary" group of Black Americans is different from the rest. Most notably, their incomes are higher than the U.S. average. Their level of education is also higher. They are a typical "high-achieving" American ethnic group, like Chinese- Americans and Japanese-Americans. Colin Powell belongs to that group. So do many other famous black Americans. > What about American-Jews and their position opposite Israel? Of "older" immigrants, they are probably the biggest exception. But this shows how extraordinary the circumstances have to be to contravene the general tendency toward indifference and assimilation -- it takes the threat of genocide, etc. > Rob: > If he thinks that today, he's a moron, and not typical > of anyone here. > San: > Happened 24 hours back. This guy runs a solvent company? It sounds like divine intervention must be at work. > In the case of the I.T. sector, the Indian software > engineer is totally tied up through the H1B Visa which > is employer specific, for the tenure. > If he quits, to avoid being jailed as illegal immigrant, he has > to go back to the country of origin and then apply again. I see. This sounds like a bad thing for the U.S. in general as well as our Indian guests. As long as they are here, it seems to me that everyone will benefit most if they have maximum freedom to compete in the labor market. If there is any legitimate public interest here, perhaps a better way to implement it would be to revoke the visa if the person is out of work for more than, say, six months. The labor market is one of the places were political pressure is most intense to reduce competition -- where anti-libertarian tendencies are most likely to manifest. > Though I remember an incident of a Chinese- > American wanting to marry an all-white American beauty. > The mother says' Mr Lee, you might be an American > citizen, but you are not American.Have some tea. > It's pure Cantonese." Oh, certainly, this happens. But historically it takes about three generations for each immigrant group here to reach the 50 percent out-marriage point (where half the members of the group who are getting married, do so with a member from outside the group). Last I saw figures, about half of all Asian-Americans who get married here, were marrying non-Asians. Assimilation really happens here. It's one of the most extraordinary things about the U.S. But historically it has taken several generations, so people don't realize that it has happened at all with the older groups (they take the results for granted) and don't realize that it's in progress with the more recently arrived groups. The only exception has been black Americans. But even they, I believe, are now up to a ten percent out-marriage rate. Maybe not, my memory is not reliable. > Rob, again, I hope you have not felt that I have degraded the flag. > That was not at all my intention. Go ahead, piss on the U.S. flag, I don't care! Tell me something about India, I feel silly taking up all this space with talk about the U.S. Jingoistically, Rob P.S. Why am i writing all these long messages? I need to get back to work. - Sandeep Chatterjee Realization Wednesday, October 10, 2001 2:49 PM Re: Re: Non-duality in Islam / Sandeep Hi Rob, First of all Rob, this is no flag versus flag. There is no flag owned at this end. God only knows the amount of hilarity that one can find in India and Indian ethos. Some comments on some of the most interesting issues that you raise..... <SNIP> we are the opposite of complacent. For example, the degree to which we criticize ourselves for our racism, when we are among the less-racist countries. San: That is indeed so, in terms of checks and balances incorporated in the system. No other nation lays so much focus on this vital aspect of humanity. However in reality, what's the score, Rob? And what would you think would be the answer, if I posed the same question to a black, to a Mexican, to a Philipino, to an Arab, in the US? ---------- <SNIP> > Because the US Co was under the impression that > Afghanistan was a province of India and the CEO > did not want to take any chance whatsoever. If he thinks that today, he's a moron, and not typical of anyone here. San: Happened 24 hours back. ---------- But if he thought that before 9/11, so what? Are Indians knowledgeable about the geography of South America? San: LOL. Rob it's not flag versus flag. There are as many idiots in India as that American CEO. ------ There are 189 nations in the U.N. How many of us can name half of them? The most important open secret about the U.S., it seems to me, is that nearly everyone in the U.S. (close to 90 percent) is either a voluntary immigrant or the child, grandchild, etc. of voluntary immigrants. These immigrants, who put a deep stamp on our culture, deliberatey turned their backs on a piece of the world when they came here (most often crossing the ocean to leave the "Old World" for the "New World".) This is a nation of people who live where they do because of disdain or contempt or disinterest in at least one part of the outside world. San: Very interesting Rob and if true, probably explains a lot of things. Ergo, it's all somewhere out there, nothing to do with me or my back-yard, would fit in very well with your premise. Would you characterize that statement as applicable to the 90% Americans, who as you say are either voluntary immigrants or descendants of one? What about the black slaves "shanghaied" from Africa to the USA to reclaim land? What about American-Jews and their position opposite Israel? > San: > As an example, you know in the I.T. sector, in > the last 5-8 years there has been an exodus > of Indian computer software professionals from > India to the US, out of sheer necessity for "bodies" > and also the fact that the US companies have > to pay peanuts compared to what they would > have to pay in recruiting an all-American. The exodus cannot be explained by the fact that the salaries are peanuts by American standards. The explanation has to be what motivates the people to exit. Surely the exodus is explained by the fact that the salaries are large by Indian standards, or by some other aspect of life in the U.S. that the employees find attractive. San: Oh indeed so. American peanuts are still peanuts in the palm. Let me confirm upfront, the US is the engine of the global commerce and economic prosperity. And thus all roads lead to those shores. No doubt about that. But I think, if I recall correctly we were talking about self -interests driving values and outlook for global perspectives or something of this nature. > All that equal opportunity, no discrimination > etc etc only applicable within the cocoon > members. If you mean that the salary differential is an example of discrimination, I don't buy it. Markets don't work that way. San: You are correct. In an open market with no barriers to entry or exit, such strategies like salary differential will never work. The guy/gal will simply leave for greener pastures. But as you know Rob, there is nothing like open markets, anywhere. Neither in the US, nor anywhere else. In the case of the I.T. sector, the Indian software engineer is totally tied up through the H1B Visa which is employer specific, for the tenure. If he quits, to avoid being jailed as illegal immigrant, he has to go back to the country of origin and then apply again. ----- Or maybe you are thinking of something else. Japanese-Americans have the highest incomes of any ethnic group in the U.S., despite the fact that they have been here, on average, for only three or four generations. (Jewish-Americans are second. British-Americans, who constitute, surprisingly, only about 15 percent of Americans, are way down the list, at about 100 percent of the mean family income: merely average.) San: Ahaa, you are talking about immigrants who then go about to become American citizens. No, I was not meaning that. Though I remember an incident of a Chinese- American wanting to marry an all-white American beauty. The mother says' Mr Lee, you might be an American citizen, but you are not American.Have some tea.It's pure Cantonese." LOL. ----- Is your criticism not tempered by the fact that we allow a million people a year to join the cocoon, most of them from third-world countries including India? What more can we do? What country does more? San: Rob, again, I hope you have not felt that I have degraded the flag. That was not at all my intention. I have quite forgotten what was the essence of this thread but I have a feeling it was to explore the root cause of why is there so much hatred for the US in parts of the globe, the hatred deep enough for 11th Sept to happen. It seems to me, that if America does not understand this root, whatever it does in addressing the issue, by whatever means, will be futile and a great nation will remain bewildered as to what hit them and I am not speaking just of 11th Sept. ---------- This is the only country on earth made almost entirely by immigrants. To attack *this* country for excluding others seems, well, sorry, but it seems hilarious to me. San: Interested to see how blocking anybody else from entering the home, whose original occupant, I have kicked to the backyard garage, gets justified. No doubt the justification will be hilarious Rob.<s> ----------- India is still dealing with the inequalities established by the Aryan invasion several thousand years ago. San: Oh absolutely. No doubt whatsoever in that. And a divine right is invoked while perpetuating the inequality, in these parts. Flag-wavingly, San: Don't, for there is really no opposing breeze, Rob <s> Cheers Sandeep..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................ 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Guest guest Posted October 10, 2001 Report Share Posted October 10, 2001 Rob wrote: > we are the opposite of complacent. For example, > the degree to which we criticize ourselves for > our racism, when we are among the less-racist > countries. > > San: > > That is indeed so, in terms of checks and balances incorporated in the system. > No other nation lays so much focus on this vital aspect of humanity. > > However in reality, what's the score, Rob? > And what would you think would be the answer, if I posed the same question to > a black, to a Mexican, to a Philipino, to an Arab, in the US? Would vary with their sense of fairness and their ability to see all sides of an issue. Gary Gary Schouborg Performance Consulting Walnut Creek, CA garyscho Publications and professional services: http://home.att.net/~garyscho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2001 Report Share Posted October 10, 2001 Hi Sandeep -- Afganistan a province of India ... Pretty funny. The province that raises its children to be terrorists? Lately, I've heard more than once the quote: " We in the movement of Islam [fundamentalism] look forward to death as much as you Americans look forward to life. " Pretty spooky stuff. Reminds me of Freud, in Civilization and Its Discontents, the life instinct vs. the death instincts. The energy that would tear down civilization and move back a thousand years if possible, and the energy that wants to organize and build larger and larger pyramids. Won't find one in the absence of the other... Yin and yang, oldest story in the book ... San: The probability of the world order remaining in the form it has been, or even remaining at all, being an all time low, how else could such a possibility come to light? Dan: True. And, the world order being imaginary, each instant is its destruction and re-creation in/as a " perceiving mind " ... And who will live in/as *that* which is neither organized nor destructible? In/as that which is before being organized, and which after all that can be gone, is ... This is the koan of our age (and really, of any age, although the inherent " instability " isn't always as apparent as " now " ) Namaste, Dan Make a great connection at Personals. http://personals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2001 Report Share Posted October 10, 2001 I live in the middle of Silicon Valley in a seven story apartment building with 123 units that overlooks many IT corporations who are our next door neighbors. More than 2/3 of the residents in my building are Indians who have come here to work in IT. Our building is not cheap, 2 bedroom apartments like mine rent for over $2,000 a month to newcomers. I have heard rumors and read some incomplete information in our local newspapers about Indians being required to work more hours than their American counterparts, and for less money. The pay in Silicon Valley is outrageous and the living expense is at the top of the entire US market for housing and cost of living in general. While there is a slump in the market here, 18 percent vacancy in commercial real estate compared to 2 percent last year, things still look great. To afford to live here you have to make at least $25 an hour. My neighbors are mostly pretty happy people, and I love the Divali Festival we have been fortunate enough to be allowed to hold in our recreation room every year. One of the best things about living here is that it is almost as diverse in culture as New York City. Perhaps there is some improvement in living conditions, but it sure seems that it is my life that is enriched by living in this building. If there being here is at the expense of an unfair advantage to their American co-workers, I have to say it really pisses me off. How non-dual is that? This makes me want to find out and see what I can do. I guess with the new cars, the fragrant smells of the food in the hallways, the luxury saris and miniature bicycles for the cute little toddlers, I didn't realize that something might be less than fair that is going on in the IT workplace. I hate injustice, and it always brings up an US vs. THEM idea, Now I have to go pray. Susanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2001 Report Share Posted October 11, 2001 Hi Rob, - Rob Sacks Realization Thursday, October 11, 2001 01:18 AM Re: Re: Non-duality in Islam / Sandeep Dear Sandeep, I'm sorry I waved my flag at you! No problem, hombre. What else can you do with a flag?<LOL> > First of all Rob, this is no flag versus flag. > There is no flag owned at this end. > God only knows the amount of hilarity that one can > find in India and Indian ethos. I don't really take this that seriously, I just feel like ranting. Apologies for doing it in your direction. San: No problemento, amigo.<s> The thing is, I spent most of my life as a political radical. I thought the U.S. was the world imperialist hegemon and that it was responsible for all evil in the world. San: I would not say responsible, but the sustenance. As the sustenance of also the good in the world. ------ Then one day I decided that this isn't true. Since then I love to rant against my former opinions and do so at the least excuse. > However in reality, what's the score, Rob? > And what would you think would be the answer, if > I posed the same question to a black, to a Mexican, > to a Philipino, to an Arab, in the US? If it were anybody else but you, I would say, what makes you assume I'm none of those things? But you can probably see me. San: yes, in more ways than you can imagine<LOL> ------ I think the answer such people would give would depend on how much they've traveled. I recently rode in a New York taxicab with a Moroccan driver who had lived previously for several years in both Paris and Germany, and he told me that he finds it funny that Americans think the U.S. is so terribly racist. "They have no idea," he said, shaking his head and laughing. (He think he moved the conversation onto that topic, not me, but not sure.) I didn't say there isn't any racism here, I just said it's relatively mild on the scale that is encountered world wide. But you know, even a white person has opportunities to assess the degree of racism against non-whites. For example, when I was in Zimbabwe, I was constantly treated by black people as if I were incredibly important simply because I was white. And I could see how the so-called "colored" folks tried to sort of ... cozy up to me? I don't know how to describe it. The whole dynamic was incredibly strange. It was plain from this that racism is much more intense there than in the U.S. (This was the former Rhodesia, long saddled with an apartheid system, ten years after it was liberated.) San: Indeed. Slavery might have been officially abolished but the psyche impacted over centuries, which gets awed by the white skin, will take centuries to be re-impacted. This gets complicated by the growing gap between the generally white-haves and the non-white-have nots, which probably reinforces the original conditioning. I used to travel in Africa, fairly extensively in the past, (including Zimbabwe) and my observation is that more Africans have killed and depraved Africans, after so called Independence, than the depravity wreaked by erstwhile "white rulers". Just an observation, offering no justification for either. ----- And the worst instance of racism I've ever seen was in Germany, where I watched a Turkish guest-worker be dreadfully abused in a hospital emergency room. I was simply a bystander, I could have been of any background. > There are as many idiots in India as that American CEO. NOOOOO! I romanticize India, I idealize it. Don't tell me this! San: Oh, idiocy was invented out here. Rob, you guys have only had, maybe, 400 years of playing about. We have been playing for 5000 years. Seen it, done that, been there, etc etc etc. LOL. --------- > Would you characterize that statement as applicable > to the 90% Americans, who as you say are either > voluntary immigrants or descendants of one? Historically it has been true about most of the groups. One of the ways this can be seen is the perennial American family story of the first generation trying to force the second generation to learn the parent's native language, and almost always failing. The biggest effort was made by the wave of German immigrants. They set up whole towns, German-language newspapers, had their own schools. It all dissolved. (Except for some very small religious communities.) The grandchildren weren't interested. People really do get assimilated here. That has been the pattern. When the Irish arrived, they were regarded as being of a different race. (Back then, Celts and Anglo-Saxons were different races, supposedly.) When the Italians arrived, they were regarded as "black." San: I thought the term "WOP" was used. I used to ask what it meant and nobody had any clue. Till I found out, that there is nothing insulting about the term, it just means "without papers'. In the great exodus in the 20s and 30s , most immigrants arriving at Long Island from Italy, had no immigration/identification papers, whatsoever. ---- Nobody even remembers these things anymore. San: Is that really so? -- You have to become interested in the history of immigration to find out. Same story with every group who came voluntarily. However, I suspect it will be different with the new immigrants from Latin America, especially Mexicans, because they can travel back and forth so easily. We will see. > What about the black slaves "shanghaied" > from Africa to the USA to reclaim land? Exactly, they are the big exception. That's why I had to say "voluntary immigrants." (But if you mean by reclaim land that they want to go home to Africa, there was never any interest. Liberia was established for just that purpose -- hardly anybody went.) San: No, I am told, reclaiming land in the US, specially the South was such a harsh, back breaking job that good white souls needed "bodies" from else where to go and "unswamp" the swamps, or whatever is done to reclaim and develop land. ------ But this group provides a sort of natural experiment that proves how important this culture-of-immigration stuff is. There are about 35 million black Americans. Of them, two million came voluntarily -- they are also the descendents of slaves, but they immigrated here voluntarily from the West Indies. Their ancestors were slaves in the West Indies, not here. By every sociological indicator, this "voluntary" group of Black Americans is different from the rest. Most notably, their incomes are higher than the U.S. average. Their level of education is also higher. They are a typical "high-achieving" American ethnic group, like Chinese- Americans and Japanese-Americans. Colin Powell belongs to that group. So do many other famous black Americans. > What about American-Jews and their position opposite Israel? Of "older" immigrants, they are probably the biggest exception. But this shows how extraordinary the circumstances have to be to contravene the general tendency toward indifference and assimilation -- it takes the threat of genocide, etc. San: Thanks Rob for your inputs. Much appreciated to appreciate the melting pot which the US is. Have you noticed most Gurus finally make their way to the shores of Long Island? Now that's worth pondering about? Spiritual centre, or centre of naiveté which attracts all the con artists of the world. LOL. <SNIP> > Though I remember an incident of a Chinese- > American wanting to marry an all-white American beauty. > The mother says' Mr Lee, you might be an American > citizen, but you are not American.Have some tea. > It's pure Cantonese." Oh, certainly, this happens. But historically it takes about three generations for each immigrant group here to reach the 50 percent out-marriage point (where half the members of the group who are getting married, do so with a member from outside the group). Last I saw figures, about half of all Asian-Americans who get married here, were marrying non-Asians. Assimilation really happens here. It's one of the most extraordinary things about the U.S. San: Yes, I have seen this in my few visits in the US. I once commented in a gathering in the US.......... There being no history out here, there is also no burden of history out here. (You see Rob when you have been playing for 5,000 years, anything less than a 1,000 years doesn't count<LOL>) And thus, there is a freshness in the play of energy out here. That is the beauty and the tragedy. --------- But historically it has taken several generations, so people don't realize that it has happened at all with the older groups (they take the results for granted) and don't realize that it's in progress with the more recently arrived groups. The only exception has been black Americans. But even they, I believe, are now up to a ten percent out-marriage rate. Maybe not, my memory is not reliable. > Rob, again, I hope you have not felt that I have degraded the flag. > That was not at all my intention. Go ahead, piss on the U.S. flag, I don't care! San: Naaaaaah.<s> Tell me something about India, I feel silly taking up all this space with talk about the U.S. San: No we are trying to deconstruct, the happenings, in the last 4 weeks or so, around the globe to hopefully get a grip on the root or the source. All phenomenal, no doubt, but interesting. Cheers Sandeep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2001 Report Share Posted October 11, 2001 Hi Susanne, > > Perhaps there is some improvement in living conditions, but it sure > seems that it is my life that is enriched by living in this > building. I feel the same way. I'm lucky to live here in the northwest corner of Queens in New York City. It's one of the major areas of settlement in the whole country for the current wave of immigrants. These folks are coming from a hodgepodge of nations: Ecuador, Egypt, Bangladesh, Colombia, Mexico, Pakistan, Peru... (There are also a huge number of Koreans and Chinese in this area but they live a little bit east of here.) The local newspapers occasionally print articles saying that students in the local schools come from 40 or so countries. This is just an ordinary working-class neighborhood (except for the mix of languages and clothing styles) but the restaurants are terrific. Speaking of race... very often when I come home from Manhattan on the subway I am the only European-looking person on the subway car. Sometimes I look at faces and try to guess where people are from. It's interesting how often I can't tell. Sometimes I can't even guess which continent people are from. Rob - " Rev. Dr. Susanne Freeborn " <sfreeborn <Realization > Wednesday, October 10, 2001 8:59 PM Re: Non-duality in Islam / Sandeep > I live in the middle of Silicon Valley in a seven story apartment > building with 123 units that overlooks many IT corporations who are > our next door neighbors. More than 2/3 of the residents in my > building are Indians who have come here to work in IT. Our building > is not cheap, 2 bedroom apartments like mine rent for over $2,000 a > month to newcomers. > > I have heard rumors and read some incomplete information in our local > newspapers about Indians being required to work more hours than their > American counterparts, and for less money. The pay in Silicon Valley > is outrageous and the living expense is at the top of the entire US > market for housing and cost of living in general. While there is a > slump in the market here, 18 percent vacancy in commercial real > estate compared to 2 percent last year, things still look great. To > afford to live here you have to make at least $25 an hour. > > My neighbors are mostly pretty happy people, and I love the Divali > Festival we have been fortunate enough to be allowed to hold in our > recreation room every year. One of the best things about living here > is that it is almost as diverse in culture as New York City. > > Perhaps there is some improvement in living conditions, but it sure > seems that it is my life that is enriched by living in this > building. If there being here is at the expense of an unfair > advantage to their American co-workers, I have to say it really > pisses me off. How non-dual is that? This makes me want to find out > and see what I can do. I guess with the new cars, the fragrant > smells of the food in the hallways, the luxury saris and miniature > bicycles for the cute little toddlers, I didn't realize that > something might be less than fair that is going on in the IT > workplace. > > I hate injustice, and it always brings up an US vs. THEM idea, Now I > have to go pray. > > Susanne > > > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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