Guest guest Posted January 19, 2003 Report Share Posted January 19, 2003 What about when I'm asleep? When I'm asleep some of the time my mind is not active, I am not thinking. I have no memory of this time. I have no awareness during this time. It is like one minute I am there, then it is several hours later, I am there again. I suppose there is a fear that this blankness is what exists if I am not thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2003 Report Share Posted January 19, 2003 Realization , " Tanya Davis <tanyarowan@h...> " <tanyarowan@h...> wrote: > What about when I'm asleep? Truth never sleeps, has no need to awaken. It can't be missed. A snoozing Tanya doesn't take anything away. > When I'm asleep some of the time my mind > is not active, I am not thinking. I have no memory of this time. Then how do you know you weren't thinking, or driving a car, or visiting Venus? Imagine what you may have no memory of ... the possibilities are limitless ... > I > have no awareness during this time. If you have no awareness of it, how do you know that anything at all took place then? > It is like one minute I am there, > then it is several hours later, I am there again. That's just a report given by a selective memory system available at a certain point in time. > I suppose there is > a fear that this blankness is what exists if I am not thinking. Blankness is something of which one is aware. The idea of nonawareness is something of which one is aware. Look at it this way: it is entirely possible that you have never had any previous existence whatsoever. It is quite possible that you have no previous or future moment in which to exist, that your memory image is something occuring now, and that it doesn't validate any other moment (nor even the present moment, for that matter). Peace, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Hi Tanya .. Im not sure if I missed the original posting? I read Dan's reply and thought I would try to describe something that happened to me ... At 2am one morning a couple of years ago I woke from a deep sleep to sit bold upright in bed with my arms out beside me palms to the bed. I didnt know that I was sitting bolt upright until later, when an awareness of my body and my immediate surroundings returned. When I 'awoke' .. it is so hard to describe the feeling .. I was in a black place, just blackness and emptiness! It was so dense, that is the only way I can describe it, pure nothingness. My mind trying to find a point of reference, but each thing it tried, it couldnt reach - there was no time..no vision..no colour..no sound..no thought..I started to realise something unusual was happening, well I didnt really realise it, more like my "mind" was wondering what this nothingness was. It wanted to reach forward into the emptiness, to find some familiar thing, but it couldnt. Then it realised there was "nothing" and got inquisitive, wanted to move forward into the nothingness and see what happened, but something held me back - my ego? I feel (just a hunch) the experience lasted 15 minutes, and the way I "came back" was reality clouding back in, like a mist, then I could see the things in my bedroom, fuzzy at first, then gradually they cleared and became 'normal' over a period of time until I was sitting there, fully aware of my surroundings and wide awake. This experience was very very intense, it was not awakening from a dream .. I have asked several people what they thought it might be, one said I was taken to the void, another that I was taken back to the beginning of time .. I dont know what happened and it doesnt really matter .. I have looked at it from many angles: I was fully 'aware' during this experience, frighteningly so, but where was my mind, cos when I was "there" I had no memory of anything at all, no reference points whatsoever .. was it my "mind" or my "ego" that pulled me back. Where was I exactly, and what was it that was 'processing' the experience .. so many questions. Months later someone gave me a Sri Ramana Maharshi book and the following jumped out at me ..... The body itself is a projection of the mind. You speak of the brain when you think of the body. It is the mind which creates the body, the brain in it and also ascertains that the brain is its seat. In a direct experience of Self there is only perfect peace. Ecstasy comes when the mind revives at the end of this experience, with the rememberance of the peace of being. In devotion the ecstasy comes first. It is manifested by tears of joy, hair standing on end and vocal stumbling. When the ego finally dies and the natural state of being is won, these symptoms and the ecstasies cease. Are you in the world, or is the world in within you? The world is not perceived in your sleep although you cannot deny your existence then. The world appears when you wake up. So where is it? Clearly the world is your thought. Thoughts are your projections. The "I" is first created and then the world. The world is created by the "I" which in its turn rises up from the Self. The riddle of the creation of the world is thus solved if you solve the creation of the "I". So, find your Self. Consciousness is always Self-consciousness. If you are conscious of anything you are essentially conscious of yourself. Unself-conscious existence is a contradiction in terms. It is no existence at all. It is merely attributed existence, whereas true existence, Being, is not an attribute, it is the sustance itself. It is the reality. Reality is therefore known as being-consciousness, and never merely the one to the exclusion of the other. The world neither exists by itself, nor is it conscious of its existence. How can you say that such a world is real? And what is the nature of the world? It is perpetual change, a continuous, interminable flux. A dependent, unself-conscious, ever-changing world cannot be real .. And from J Krishnamurti ... Truth is a pathless land. Man cannot come to it through any organisation, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, nor through any philosophical knowledge or psychological technique. He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind, through observation and not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection. To finish .. a poem written by a friend (Simon Court) .. Not knowing this or that just knowing Not being this or that just being Not doing this or that just doing I know this does not answer your question Tanya, but might be of interest .. blessings and love .. deb Fenella Irish Water SpanielsEar Candles - Australian madeDebLuvsUrPets - home pet carehttp://irishwater.freewebsites.com/ - Tanya Davis <tanyarowan Realization Monday, January 20, 2003 1:16 AM Sleeping What about when I'm asleep? When I'm asleep some of the time my mind is not active, I am not thinking. I have no memory of this time. I have no awareness during this time. It is like one minute I am there, then it is several hours later, I am there again. I suppose there is a fear that this blankness is what exists if I am not thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Hi Deb -- Thanks for sharing your memory of your experience of nothingness, and your other observations. As you describe a memory, and as it is a memory of an experience, you raise for me this question: What is " this " in which no memory function can be active, which has no past and relates to no past? Memory is a construct, and thus requires a sense of meaning, which requires a meaning-maker, an " I. " So -- what is " this " which is unconstructed, needs no meaning, therefore requires no meaning-making? I raise this question not because I think we are going to answer it in words in this forum. Words always have past referents, and consensus agreements. " This " doesn't prevent us from using words, nor does it interfere with day-to-day consensus agreements about meaning and the use of memory. Yet, " this " has no memory relationships whatsoever, and is truly " no-thingness " -- you will never have a memory of it, nor will you ever know it as an experience with meaning. This " no-thingness " transcends the kind of consciousness you're describing, and doesn't involve an experience of the Self, nor ecstasy, nor existence (all of which fall within the realm of human meaning-making and experiences). As words always involve referents, meanings, and metaphors, I would use the metaphor of a laser rather than a Self. " This " is a laser cutting through any delusion, memory association, sense of self and other, or adherence to experience or an experiential entity. As you indicated, life is flux. Flux doesn't mean unreal, it meanings changing without reference-points. The real is right here, like a laser, in the midst of flux, and change, from which " this " is never separate or separable. Peace, Dan Realization , " deb " <willett@h...> wrote: > Hi Tanya .. Im not sure if I missed the original posting? I read Dan's reply and thought I would try to describe something that happened to me ... > > At 2am one morning a couple of years ago I woke from a deep sleep to sit bold upright in bed with my arms out beside me palms to the bed. I didnt know that I was sitting bolt upright until later, when an awareness of my body and my immediate surroundings returned. When I 'awoke' .. it is so hard to describe the feeling .. I was in a black place, just blackness and emptiness! It was so dense, that is the only way I can describe it, pure nothingness. My mind trying to find a point of reference, but each thing it tried, it couldnt reach - there was no time..no vision..no colour..no sound..no thought..I started to realise something unusual was happening, well I didnt really realise it, more like my " mind " was wondering what this nothingness was. It wanted to reach forward into the emptiness, to find some familiar thing, but it couldnt. Then it realised there was " nothing " and got inquisitive, wanted to move forward into the nothingness and see what happened, but something held me back - my ego? I feel (just a hunch) the experience lasted 15 minutes, and the way I " came back " was reality clouding back in, like a mist, then I could see the things in my bedroom, fuzzy at first, then gradually they cleared and became 'normal' over a period of time until I was sitting there, fully aware of my surroundings and wide awake. This experience was very very intense, it was not awakening from a dream .. I have asked several people what they thought it might be, one said I was taken to the void, another that I was taken back to the beginning of time .. I dont know what happened and it doesnt really matter .. I have looked at it from many angles: I was fully 'aware' during this experience, frighteningly so, but where was my mind, cos when I was " there " I had no memory of anything at all, no reference points whatsoever .. was it my " mind " or my " ego " that pulled me back. Where was I exactly, and what was it that was 'processing' the experience .. so many questions. > > Months later someone gave me a Sri Ramana Maharshi book and the following jumped out at me ..... > > The body itself is a projection of the mind. You speak of the brain when you think of the body. It is the mind which creates the body, the brain in it and also ascertains that the brain is its seat. > > In a direct experience of Self there is only perfect peace. Ecstasy comes when the mind revives at the end of this experience, with the rememberance of the peace of being. In devotion the ecstasy comes first. It is manifested by tears of joy, hair standing on end and vocal stumbling. When the ego finally dies and the natural state of being is won, these symptoms and the ecstasies cease. > > Are you in the world, or is the world in within you? The world is not perceived in your sleep although you cannot deny your existence then. The world appears when you wake up. So where is it? Clearly the world is your thought. Thoughts are your projections. The " I " is first created and then the world. The world is created by the " I " which in its turn rises up from the Self. The riddle of the creation of the world is thus solved if you solve the creation of the " I " . So, find your Self. > > Consciousness is always Self-consciousness. If you are conscious of anything you are essentially conscious of yourself. Unself-conscious existence is a contradiction in terms. It is no existence at all. It is merely attributed existence, whereas true existence, Being, is not an attribute, it is the sustance itself. It is the reality. Reality is therefore known as being-consciousness, and never merely the one to the exclusion of the other. The world neither exists by itself, nor is it conscious of its existence. How can you say that such a world is real? And what is the nature of the world? It is perpetual change, a continuous, interminable flux. A dependent, unself- conscious, ever-changing world cannot be real .. > > And from J Krishnamurti ... > > Truth is a pathless land. Man cannot come to it through any organisation, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, nor through any philosophical knowledge or psychological technique. He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind, through observation and not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection. > > To finish .. a poem written by a friend (Simon Court) .. > > Not knowing this or that > just knowing > Not being this or that > just being > Not doing this or that > just doing > > I know this does not answer your question Tanya, but might be of interest .. > blessings and love .. > > deb > > Fenella Irish Water Spaniels > Ear Candles - Australian made > DebLuvsUrPets - home pet care > http://irishwater.freewebsites.com/ > > > - > Tanya Davis <tanyarowan@h...> > Realization > Monday, January 20, 2003 1:16 AM > Sleeping > > > What about when I'm asleep? When I'm asleep some of the time my mind > is not active, I am not thinking. I have no memory of this time. I > have no awareness during this time. It is like one minute I am there, > then it is several hours later, I am there again. I suppose there is > a fear that this blankness is what exists if I am not thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 > > Realization , " deb " <willett@h...> wrote: > > At 2am one morning a couple of years ago I woke from a deep sleep > to sit bold upright in bed with my arms out beside me palms to the > bed. I didnt know that I was sitting bolt upright until later, when > an awareness of my body and my immediate surroundings returned. **** Sounds like a case of Pace Picante's Extra Hot Chunky Salsa. :-) Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2003 Report Share Posted January 30, 2003 Realization , " Tanya Davis <tanyarowan@h...> " <tanyarowan@h...> wrote: > What about when I'm asleep? When I'm asleep some of the time my mind > is not active, I am not thinking. I have no memory of this time. I > have no awareness during this time. It is like one minute I am there, > then it is several hours later, I am there again. I suppose there is > a fear that this blankness is what exists if I am not thinking. Hello Dan, Deb, Tanya and all, There will be those rigourists who say that this is just another experience having the same form and nature of any other, which is true, I am told, for those looking back from a great height. Not being at that eminence all I can say is that there are experiences which reveal to us the nature of consciousness and which confirm and encourage us in our quest. What quest - for that which is here already? Perhaps but most of us move along by baby steps not 7 league giant steps. Ramana had a lot to say on Deep Dreamless Sleep and what it tells us about consciousness. I have excerpted them from the Talks. Gujerati will find the place in a longer essay in http://homepage.eircom.net/~ombhurbhuva/chitjada.htm There are other stories of odd states of mind to beguile the time whilst waiting for realisation at http://homepage.eircom.net/~ombhurbhuva/ Ciao and blessings, Michael. ************************************************************************* " By painting the head of Ramana on stacked sheets of glass Wendell wanted to create a portrait that floating from the vitreous medium as out of the dark knot between the conscious and the inert, would seem solid. This is an image of the world for Ramana, solid seeming, but a construct of successive slides of mind. We jump from picture to picture and cannot follow The living curve that is breathlessly the same. " Louis MacNeice......... ************************************************************************** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2003 Report Share Posted January 30, 2003 Hi Michael, Nothing wrong with experiences, it's just that they come and go, begin and end. Nothing wrong with baby steps. A journey of a thousand baby steps begins with one step, which was preceded by a thousand steps. On and on it goes ... Or does it? Peace, Dan > Hello Dan, Deb, Tanya and all, > > There will be those rigourists who say that this is just another experience having the same form and nature of any other, which is true, I am told, for those looking back from a great height. Not being at that eminence all I can say is that there are experiences which reveal to us the nature of consciousness and which confirm and encourage us in our quest. What quest - for that which is here already? Perhaps but most of us move along by baby steps not 7 league giant steps. > > Ramana had a lot to say on Deep Dreamless Sleep and what it tells us about consciousness. I have excerpted them from the Talks. Gujerati will find the place in a longer essay in http://homepage.eircom.net/~ombhurbhuva/chitjada.htm There are other stories of odd states of mind to beguile the time whilst waiting for realisation at http://homepage.eircom.net/~ombhurbhuva/ > Ciao and blessings, Michael. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2003 Report Share Posted January 31, 2003 --- Hello Dan and All, Profound experiences are like the cogs on the ratchet device that raises the net for tennis. It is hard to slip back past them. The net has to be fully up before you can play the game of irony which involves being on the court and in the stands at the same time. Ciao and Blessings, Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2003 Report Share Posted January 31, 2003 Realization , " svahauk <ombhurbhuva@h...> " <ombhurbhuva@h...> wrote: > --- > > Hello Dan and All, > Profound experiences are like the cogs on the ratchet device that raises the net for tennis. It is hard to slip back past them. The net has to be fully up before you can play the game of irony which involves being on the court and in the stands at the same time. > Ciao and Blessings, Michael Hi Michael, You can skip the game, and walk around the lake instead. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.