Guest guest Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 What can I say to get Dan on a roll. He never speaks unless it is immediately pertaining to Realization. How anyone could ever find anything to say about Realization, amazes me, And then what he says leaves me speechless, so the chances of chit-chat are nill. There is definitely no lack of enthusiasm in this "chat-room", whether it dances and circles around the center of Realization, or is a direct expression of THAT. What is enthusiasm?jewell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 Hi Jill Jewell -- Nice to hear from you. Realization is a word, a toy, that people like to throw around and play with, sometimes enthusiastically, sometimes not. Enthusiasm fades, as do all qualities attached to a human being, as does the formulation of " human being " ... Words are given about realization, not because there is any happening called realization, nor because something needs to be said about it. Words are given only because a word may dissolve a stuckness in concept-as-if-real. The truth of realization is neither an activity nor an event -- so the word realization is utterly misleading -- there is no realization. Generally, tendencies are moving along through time, forming a being " as if " -- on an ongoing basis. For the dissolution of the " as if " attempt, the conglomeration of hopes, fears, desires -- for the ceasing of the intent to continue ... Well, that can't possibly be a space-time event. A word is a space-time event. Although there is nothing that can be said or done to be awake, to be who one actually is not existing within the imagined placement of an experiential locale -- It wouldn't be correct to say " do nothing " or " realize there is nothing to do " -- Either of those are merely a reaction against space-time activity, and so are also conditioned and conditional. This is why words are offered. Many will banter words around about day to day life events, or concepts about something they think occurs for someone as " realization. " To know, such that one's knowing and being are one, and there is no knowing to have, nor being to express -- That is a rare understanding, indeed. There is no form of knowing, being, or doing which is not included. This occurs beyond the relationship factors of day-to-day being, doing, and word exchange -- without occurring or being perceived -- yet not in any way a lack of something occurring or being perceived ... One could say " no subject or object " as " totality awareness of/as *is* " Thanks for sharing your inquiry. Dan Realization , JillLindner <jeweljill9> wrote: > > What can I say to get Dan on a roll. He never speaks unless it is immediately pertaining to Realization. How anyone could ever find anything to say about Realization, amazes me, And then what he says leaves me speechless, so the chances of chit-chat are nill. > > There is definitely no lack of enthusiasm in this " chat-room " , whether it dances and circles around the center of Realization, or is a direct expression of THAT. > > What is enthusiasm? > > > jewell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 ----- there is no realization. Well how about transformation?Is there a wish to be transformed? If not a wish or desire to be enlightened which is simply 3rd state self reflective self consciousness for most of us I guess there wouldn’t be anything to realize. Realization is not a toy or a game..We all enter this game with motivation at least towards friendship, community . The word church means Dialogue and so in light of this list or other list we dialogue about the self and what self means and we talk about the many various selfs.Just let your selfs out and there will be a lot to realize and you might not even like it LOL. ssage ----- dan330033 <dan330033 Realization Saturday, February 08, 2003 12:40 PM Re: speak Hi Jill Jewell --Nice to hear from you.Realization is a word, a toy, that people like to throw around and play with, sometimes enthusiastically, sometimes not.Enthusiasm fades, as do all qualities attached to a human being, as does the formulation of "human being" ...Words are given about realization, not because there is any happening called realization, nor because something needs to be said about it.Words are given only because a word may dissolve a stuckness in concept-as-if-real.The truth of realization is neither an activity nor an event -- so the word realization is utterly misleading -- there is no realization.Generally, tendencies are moving along through time, forming a being "as if" -- on an ongoing basis.For the dissolution of the "as if" attempt, the conglomeration of hopes, fears, desires -- for the ceasing of the intent to continue ...Well, that can't possibly be a space-time event.A word is a space-time event.Although there is nothing that can be said or done to be awake, to be who one actually is not existing within the imagined placement of an experiential locale --It wouldn't be correct to say "do nothing" or "realize there is nothing to do" --Either of those are merely a reaction against space-time activity, and so are also conditioned and conditional.This is why words are offered.Many will banter words around about day to day life events, or concepts about something they think occurs for someone as "realization."To know, such that one's knowing and being are one, and there is no knowing to have, nor being to express --That is a rare understanding, indeed.There is no form of knowing, being, or doing which is not included.This occurs beyond the relationship factors of day-to-day being, doing, and word exchange -- without occurring or being perceived -- yet not in any way a lack of something occurring or being perceived ...One could say "no subject or object" as "totality awareness of/as *is*"Thanks for sharing your inquiry.DanRealization , JillLindner <jeweljill9> wrote:> > What can I say to get Dan on a roll. He never speaks unless it is immediately pertaining to Realization. How anyone could ever find anything to say about Realization, amazes me, And then what he says leaves me speechless, so the chances of chit-chat are nill. > > There is definitely no lack of enthusiasm in this "chat-room", whether it dances and circles around the center of Realization, or is a direct expression of THAT.> > What is enthusiasm?> > > jewell..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 Transformation turns something into something else. Realization doesn't change something into something else. All somethings drop because they never have been. Including any experiential qualities that could be called " realizing " ... Yet your day to day life is not interfered with in any way whatsoever. -- Dan Realization , " alan kuntz " <alakun@m...> wrote: > > ----- there is no realization. > > > Well how about transformation?Is there a wish to be transformed? > If not a wish or desire to be enlightened which is simply 3rd state self reflective self consciousness for most of us I guess there wouldn't be anything to realize. > > Realization is not a toy or a game..We all enter this game with motivation at least towards friendship, community . > The word church means Dialogue > and so in light of this list or other list we dialogue about the self and what self means and we talk about the many various selfs.Just let your selfs out and there will be a lot to realize and you might not even like it LOL. > > ssage ----- > dan330033 <dan330033> > Realization > Saturday, February 08, 2003 12:40 PM > Re: speak > > > Hi Jill Jewell -- > > Nice to hear from you. > > Realization is a word, a toy, that > people like to throw around and play with, > sometimes enthusiastically, sometimes not. > > Enthusiasm fades, as do all qualities attached > to a human being, as does the formulation of > " human being " ... > > Words are given about realization, not because > there is any happening called realization, > nor because something needs to be said > about it. > > Words are given only because a word may dissolve > a stuckness in concept-as-if-real. > > The truth of realization is neither an activity > nor an event -- so the word realization > is utterly misleading -- there is no realization. > > Generally, tendencies are moving along through time, > forming a being " as if " -- on an ongoing basis. > > For the dissolution of the " as if " attempt, the > conglomeration of hopes, fears, desires -- > for the ceasing of the intent to continue ... > > Well, that can't possibly be a space-time event. > > A word is a space-time event. > > Although there is nothing that can be said or > done to be awake, to be who one actually is > not existing within the imagined placement of > an experiential locale -- > > It wouldn't be correct to say " do nothing " > or " realize there is nothing to do " -- > > Either of those are merely a reaction against > space-time activity, and so are also > conditioned and conditional. > > This is why words are offered. > > Many will banter words around about day > to day life events, or concepts about > something they think occurs for someone > as " realization. " > > To know, such that one's knowing and being > are one, and there is no knowing to have, > nor being to express -- > > That is a rare understanding, indeed. > > There is no form of knowing, being, or > doing which is not included. > > This occurs beyond the relationship factors > of day-to-day being, doing, and word exchange -- > without occurring or being perceived -- > yet not in any way a lack of something > occurring or being perceived ... > > One could say " no subject or > object " as " totality awareness of/as *is* " > > Thanks for sharing your inquiry. > > > Dan > > Realization , JillLindner <jeweljill9> > wrote: > > > > What can I say to get Dan on a roll. He never speaks unless it is > immediately pertaining to Realization. How anyone could ever find > anything to say about Realization, amazes me, And then what he says > leaves me speechless, so the chances of chit-chat are nill. > > > > There is definitely no lack of enthusiasm in this " chat-room " , > whether it dances and circles around the center of Realization, or is > a direct expression of THAT. > > > > What is enthusiasm? > > > > > > jewell > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 Transformation turns something into something else. yep! Realization doesn't change something into something else. Eventually it might.All somethings drop because they never have been. yeah well from some extreme high octane non dual existential perspectives perhaps but I have my doubt that there are those who really see this BigIncluding any experiential qualities that could be called "realizing" ... Through self observation your sense or beliefs or idea s of self ,quality change gradually. Its as one big Kahauna said "The purpose of zen is to Build character.Yet your day to day life is not interfered with in any way whatsoever. Yeah we try to end suffering and that’s the idea..There are 2 ways to go about this . 1) unaware 2) slightly aware-- Dan - dan330033 <dan330033 Realization Saturday, February 08, 2003 1:55 PM Re: speak Transformation turns something into something else.Realization doesn't change something into something else.All somethings drop because they never have been.Including any experiential qualities that could be called "realizing" ...Yet your day to day life is not interfered with in any way whatsoever.-- DanRealization , "alan kuntz" <alakun@m...> wrote:> > ----- there is no realization.> > > Well how about transformation?Is there a wish to be transformed? > If not a wish or desire to be enlightened which is simply 3rd state self reflective self consciousness for most of us I guess there wouldn't be anything to realize.> > Realization is not a toy or a game..We all enter this game with motivation at least towards friendship, community .> The word church means Dialogue> and so in light of this list or other list we dialogue about the self and what self means and we talk about the many various selfs.Just let your selfs out and there will be a lot to realize and you might not even like it LOL.> > ssage ----- > dan330033 <dan330033> > Realization > Saturday, February 08, 2003 12:40 PM> Re: speak> > > Hi Jill Jewell --> > Nice to hear from you.> > Realization is a word, a toy, that > people like to throw around and play with,> sometimes enthusiastically, sometimes not.> > Enthusiasm fades, as do all qualities attached> to a human being, as does the formulation of> "human being" ...> > Words are given about realization, not because> there is any happening called realization,> nor because something needs to be said> about it.> > Words are given only because a word may dissolve> a stuckness in concept-as-if-real.> > The truth of realization is neither an activity> nor an event -- so the word realization> is utterly misleading -- there is no realization.> > Generally, tendencies are moving along through time,> forming a being "as if" -- on an ongoing basis.> > For the dissolution of the "as if" attempt, the> conglomeration of hopes, fears, desires --> for the ceasing of the intent to continue ...> > Well, that can't possibly be a space-time event.> > A word is a space-time event.> > Although there is nothing that can be said or> done to be awake, to be who one actually is> not existing within the imagined placement of> an experiential locale --> > It wouldn't be correct to say "do nothing"> or "realize there is nothing to do" --> > Either of those are merely a reaction against> space-time activity, and so are also> conditioned and conditional.> > This is why words are offered.> > Many will banter words around about day> to day life events, or concepts about> something they think occurs for someone> as "realization."> > To know, such that one's knowing and being> are one, and there is no knowing to have,> nor being to express --> > That is a rare understanding, indeed.> > There is no form of knowing, being, or> doing which is not included.> > This occurs beyond the relationship factors> of day-to-day being, doing, and word exchange --> without occurring or being perceived --> yet not in any way a lack of something> occurring or being perceived ...> > One could say "no subject or> object" as "totality awareness of/as *is*"> > Thanks for sharing your inquiry.> > > Dan> > Realization , JillLindner <jeweljill9> > wrote:> > > > What can I say to get Dan on a roll. He never speaks unless it is > immediately pertaining to Realization. How anyone could ever find > anything to say about Realization, amazes me, And then what he says > leaves me speechless, so the chances of chit-chat are nill. > > > > There is definitely no lack of enthusiasm in this "chat-room", > whether it dances and circles around the center of Realization, or is > a direct expression of THAT.> > > > What is enthusiasm?> > > > > > jewell> > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........> > Email addresses:> Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org> > By sending a message to this list, you are giving> permission to have it reproduced as a letter on> http://www.realization.org> ................................................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 Dear Alan, > yeah well from some extreme high octane non dual > existential perspectives perhaps but I have my doubt > that there are those who really see this Big Haha, I like the phrase "extreme high octane non-dual" etc. It seems impossible because we imagine such an event as the familiar "I" relaxing its grip on the things that make the "I". Of course that can't happen. But what can happen is that the whole package can be seen as a fantasy. Why should that seem so remarkable? Of course it's all mental activity ... what else could it be? > Yeah we try to end suffering and that’s the idea.. This endless attempt to end suffering is the ego. This act of trying to escape is the thing from which we are trying to escape. What really is so remarkable about this process coming into view? Rob - alan kuntz Realization Sunday, February 09, 2003 1:53 PM Re: Re: speak Transformation turns something into something else. yep! Realization doesn't change something into something else. Eventually it might.All somethings drop because they never have been. yeah well from some extreme high octane non dual existential perspectives perhaps but I have my doubt that there are those who really see this BigIncluding any experiential qualities that could be called "realizing" ... Through self observation your sense or beliefs or idea s of self ,quality change gradually. Its as one big Kahauna said "The purpose of zen is to Build character.Yet your day to day life is not interfered with in any way whatsoever. Yeah we try to end suffering and that’s the idea..There are 2 ways to go about this . 1) unaware 2) slightly aware-- Dan - dan330033 <dan330033 Realization Saturday, February 08, 2003 1:55 PM Re: speak Transformation turns something into something else.Realization doesn't change something into something else.All somethings drop because they never have been.Including any experiential qualities that could be called "realizing" ...Yet your day to day life is not interfered with in any way whatsoever.-- DanRealization , "alan kuntz" <alakun@m...> wrote:> > ----- there is no realization.> > > Well how about transformation?Is there a wish to be transformed? > If not a wish or desire to be enlightened which is simply 3rd state self reflective self consciousness for most of us I guess there wouldn't be anything to realize.> > Realization is not a toy or a game..We all enter this game with motivation at least towards friendship, community .> The word church means Dialogue> and so in light of this list or other list we dialogue about the self and what self means and we talk about the many various selfs.Just let your selfs out and there will be a lot to realize and you might not even like it LOL.> > ssage ----- > dan330033 <dan330033> > Realization > Saturday, February 08, 2003 12:40 PM> Re: speak> > > Hi Jill Jewell --> > Nice to hear from you.> > Realization is a word, a toy, that > people like to throw around and play with,> sometimes enthusiastically, sometimes not.> > Enthusiasm fades, as do all qualities attached> to a human being, as does the formulation of> "human being" ...> > Words are given about realization, not because> there is any happening called realization,> nor because something needs to be said> about it.> > Words are given only because a word may dissolve> a stuckness in concept-as-if-real.> > The truth of realization is neither an activity> nor an event -- so the word realization> is utterly misleading -- there is no realization.> > Generally, tendencies are moving along through time,> forming a being "as if" -- on an ongoing basis.> > For the dissolution of the "as if" attempt, the> conglomeration of hopes, fears, desires --> for the ceasing of the intent to continue ...> > Well, that can't possibly be a space-time event.> > A word is a space-time event.> > Although there is nothing that can be said or> done to be awake, to be who one actually is> not existing within the imagined placement of> an experiential locale --> > It wouldn't be correct to say "do nothing"> or "realize there is nothing to do" --> > Either of those are merely a reaction against> space-time activity, and so are also> conditioned and conditional.> > This is why words are offered.> > Many will banter words around about day> to day life events, or concepts about> something they think occurs for someone> as "realization."> > To know, such that one's knowing and being> are one, and there is no knowing to have,> nor being to express --> > That is a rare understanding, indeed.> > There is no form of knowing, being, or> doing which is not included.> > This occurs beyond the relationship factors> of day-to-day being, doing, and word exchange --> without occurring or being perceived --> yet not in any way a lack of something> occurring or being perceived ...> > One could say "no subject or> object" as "totality awareness of/as *is*"> > Thanks for sharing your inquiry.> > > Dan> > Realization , JillLindner <jeweljill9> > wrote:> > > > What can I say to get Dan on a roll. He never speaks unless it is > immediately pertaining to Realization. How anyone could ever find > anything to say about Realization, amazes me, And then what he says > leaves me speechless, so the chances of chit-chat are nill. > > > > There is definitely no lack of enthusiasm in this "chat-room", > whether it dances and circles around the center of Realization, or is > a direct expression of THAT.> > > > What is enthusiasm?> > > > > > jewell> > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........> > Email addresses:> Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org> > By sending a message to this list, you are giving> permission to have it reproduced as a letter on> http://www.realization.org> ................................................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 Realization , " alan kuntz " <alakun@m...> wrote: >> Transformation turns something into something else. > > yep! " I " am not transformed. " I " never have been - nor any " I " -- nor any position for belief. >> Realization doesn't change something into something > else. > > Eventually it might. Nope. You're talking about time, not that which doesn't involve time. >> All somethings drop because they never have been. > > yeah well from some extreme high octane non dual existential perspectives perhaps A perspective is a thing. When somethings drop, perspective drops. > but I have my doubt that there are those who really see this Big Because there is no " those " here. >> Including any experiential qualities that could > be called " realizing " ... > Through self observation your sense or beliefs or idea s of self ,quality change gradually. Then, the self is continuing as an assumed existent center -- which drops as so-called " realization " > Its as one big Kahauna said " The purpose of zen is to Build character. There are no big Kahunas here, no sayings to quote, no past to draw on for meaning. > Yet your day to day life is not interfered > with in any way whatsoever. > > Yeah we try to end suffering and that's the idea..There are 2 ways to go about this . > 1) unaware 2) slightly aware When there is not a carried entity involved in time, then ending suffering for that entity is not a project to attempt. " Awareness " won't involve itself in an attempt to transform an entity -- thus whatever suffering is here, this moment, now, is fully " embodied " as awareness -- with no problem or conflict. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 Getting high on intellectualism? Dennis --- " dan330033 <dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > Realization , " alan kuntz " > <alakun@m...> wrote: > >> Transformation turns something into something > else. > > > > yep! > > " I " am not transformed. > > " I " never have been - nor any " I " -- > nor any position for belief. > > >> Realization doesn't change something into > something > > else. > > > > Eventually it might. > > Nope. > > You're talking about time, not > that which doesn't involve time. > > >> All somethings drop because they never have been. > > > > yeah well from some extreme high octane non dual > existential > perspectives perhaps > > A perspective is a thing. > > When somethings drop, perspective drops. > > > but I have my doubt that there are those who > really see this Big > > Because there is no " those " here. > > >> Including any experiential qualities that could > > be called " realizing " ... > > > Through self observation your sense or beliefs or > idea s of > self ,quality change gradually. > > Then, the self is continuing as an assumed > existent center -- which drops as > so-called " realization " > > > Its as one big Kahauna said " The purpose of zen is > to Build > character. > > There are no big Kahunas here, no sayings to quote, > no past to draw on for meaning. > > > Yet your day to day life is not interfered > > with in any way whatsoever. > > > > Yeah we try to end suffering and that's the > idea..There are 2 > ways to go about this . > > 1) unaware 2) slightly aware > > When there is not a carried entity involved in time, > then ending suffering for that entity is not > a project to attempt. > > " Awareness " won't involve itself in an attempt > to transform an entity -- thus whatever > suffering is here, this moment, now, is > fully " embodied " as awareness -- with no > problem or conflict. > > -- Dan > > Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 Realization , Dennis Trainor <dent16353> wrote: > Getting high on intellectualism? > Dennis > Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 > Getting high on intellectualism? > Dennis Did something about the conversation rub you the wrong way? Rob - " Dennis Trainor " <dent16353 <Realization > Sunday, February 09, 2003 3:39 PM Re: Re: speak > Getting high on intellectualism? > Dennis > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Dear Rob, I'm really trying not to get sucked into this. It is a topic I am partial to but I've already done a lot of this kind of intellectualism and I don't think it got me anywhere. It's like trying to lift an airplane while being buckled down to one of the seats. Dennis --- Rob Sacks <editor wrote: > > Getting high on intellectualism? > > Dennis > > Did something about the conversation > rub you the wrong way? > > Rob > > - > " Dennis Trainor " <dent16353 > <Realization > > Sunday, February 09, 2003 3:39 PM > Re: Re: speak > > > > Getting high on intellectualism? > > Dennis > > > > Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Dear Dennis, Well, I'll just say that Dan's remarks didn't strike me that way. He was saying that realization isn't a matter of changing yourself. You're saying realization isn't a matter of thinking something. Seems to me the two points are compatible and similar. Seems to me that Dan's message basically boils down to something like: realization is dropping everything. Dropping everything includes dropping thought. Is that really intellectualizing? Rob - " Dennis Trainor " <dent16353 <Realization > Monday, February 10, 2003 8:50 AM Re: Re: speak > Dear Rob, > I'm really trying not to get sucked into this. It > is a topic I am partial to but I've already done a lot > of this kind of intellectualism and I don't think it > got me anywhere. It's like trying to lift an airplane > while being buckled down to one of the seats. > > Dennis > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Seems to me that Dan's message basicallyboils down to something like: realizationis dropping everything.Dropping everything includes dropping thought.Is that really intellectualizing?Rob ********* You can't drop thought, *you* ARE thought! Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Hi Judi, > You can't drop thought, *you* ARE thought! I think we'd have to define "thought" pretty carefully before we get very far with this conversation. By the way, what happens when you go to sleep? Thoughts continue all night? Rob - Judi Rhodes Realization Monday, February 10, 2003 9:32 AM Re: Re: speak Seems to me that Dan's message basicallyboils down to something like: realizationis dropping everything.Dropping everything includes dropping thought.Is that really intellectualizing?Rob ********* You can't drop thought, *you* ARE thought! Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > Hi Judi, > > > You can't drop thought, *you* ARE thought! > > I think we'd have to define " thought " pretty carefully > before we get very far with this conversation. > ****** " Define " away! :-) > By the way, what happens when you go to sleep? > Thoughts continue all night? > ****** " Who " knows? :-) > Rob > Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Dear Rob, Your question is a trap. It can't be answered without intellectualizing. We'd just go round and round in circles. Lets see if I can break the circle. We all are members of a group called realization. Of course non of us will ever make it to a state of realization because there is no place where realization exists and even if there was a place realization doesn't even exist. So we are all on a path going nowhere to nothing. The only thing left to do is argue about who sees the most nothing. No that's not politically correct. Argue about who is the most nothing. Do I have it right now? Dennis --- Rob Sacks <editor wrote: > Dear Dennis, > > Well, I'll just say that Dan's remarks didn't strike > > me that way. He was saying that realization isn't > a matter of changing yourself. You're saying > realization isn't a matter of thinking something. > > Seems to me the two points are compatible > and similar. > > Seems to me that Dan's message basically > boils down to something like: realization > is dropping everything. > > Dropping everything includes dropping thought. > Is that really intellectualizing? > > Rob > > > > > - > " Dennis Trainor " <dent16353 > <Realization > > Monday, February 10, 2003 8:50 AM > Re: Re: speak > > > > Dear Rob, > > I'm really trying not to get sucked into this. > It > > is a topic I am partial to but I've already done a > lot > > of this kind of intellectualism and I don't think > it > > got me anywhere. It's like trying to lift an > airplane > > while being buckled down to one of the seats. > > > > Dennis > > > > Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Realization , Dennis Trainor <dent16353> wrote: > Dear Rob, > I'm really trying not to get sucked into this. It > is a topic I am partial to but I've already done a lot > of this kind of intellectualism and I don't think it > got me anywhere. It's like trying to lift an airplane > while being buckled down to one of the seats. > > Dennis You're assuming someone is trying to get somewhere and have some kind of experience. You're assuming something isn't right with being in an airplane and buckled into one's seat. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > Dear Dennis, > > Well, I'll just say that Dan's remarks didn't strike > me that way. He was saying that realization isn't > a matter of changing yourself. You're saying > realization isn't a matter of thinking something. > > Seems to me the two points are compatible > and similar. > > Seems to me that Dan's message basically > boils down to something like: realization > is dropping everything. > > Dropping everything includes dropping thought. > Is that really intellectualizing? > > Rob Hi Rob -- I like what you're saying above -- stands on its own -- doesn't have to be taken as an " explanation " of what I said. Explanations aren't worth much, anyway. It struck me after I had posted to Dennis, and then read what you wrote, how similar in focus were our messages. Peace, -- Dan > > > > - > " Dennis Trainor " <dent16353> > <Realization > > Monday, February 10, 2003 8:50 AM > Re: Re: speak > > > > Dear Rob, > > I'm really trying not to get sucked into this. It > > is a topic I am partial to but I've already done a lot > > of this kind of intellectualism and I don't think it > > got me anywhere. It's like trying to lift an airplane > > while being buckled down to one of the seats. > > > > Dennis > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Realization , " Judi Rhodes " <judirhodes@z...> wrote: > > Seems to me that Dan's message basically > boils down to something like: realization > is dropping everything. > > Dropping everything includes dropping thought. > Is that really intellectualizing? > > Rob > > ********* You can't drop thought, *you* ARE thought! > > Judi Oops! But it only hurts when I laugh! :-) Peace, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Realization , Dennis Trainor <dent16353> wrote: > Dear Rob, > Your question is a trap. It can't be answered without > intellectualizing. We'd just go round and round in > circles. Lets see if I can break the circle. > We all are members of a group called realization. > Of course non of us will ever make it to a state of > realization because there is no place where > realization exists and even if there was a place > realization doesn't even exist. So we are all on a > path going nowhere to nothing. The only thing left to > do is argue about who sees the most nothing. No > that's not politically correct. Argue about who is > the most nothing. Do I have it right now? > Dennis No, Dennis -- but perhaps that's because you're intellectualizing about it :-) The only reason " nothing " is offered, is because people tend to mistake themselves for something. It's not that you're nothing and going nowhere -- it's that who you are isn't an object of which you know -- nor is it a subject which knows of objects ... Realization isn't knowing that there is nothing to know and no realization to have. It is " getting clear " that everything you have taken yourself to be is not a basis for anything at all. Not that you drop everything and that's it. It's simultaneously saying hello to everything in a new way. Which can be called " coming from one's prior Condition " -- anterior to one's investment in an activity of becoming something in time, hence subject to varying conditions ... As this Condition, there is no " I " or " you " to intellectualize, nor is there something needing to be uncovered or thrown away -- " this " is never not the case anywhere ... Even now and here ... Peace, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Dear Dan, This post is going in a good direction. Dennis --- " dan330033 <dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > Realization , " Rob Sacks " > <editor@r...> wrote: > > Dear Dennis, > > > > Well, I'll just say that Dan's remarks didn't > strike > > me that way. He was saying that realization isn't > > > a matter of changing yourself. You're saying > > realization isn't a matter of thinking something. > > > > Seems to me the two points are compatible > > and similar. > > > > Seems to me that Dan's message basically > > boils down to something like: realization > > is dropping everything. > > > > Dropping everything includes dropping thought. > > Is that really intellectualizing? > > > > Rob > > Hi Rob -- > > I like what you're saying above -- stands > on its own -- doesn't have to be taken > as an " explanation " of what I said. > > Explanations aren't worth much, anyway. > > It struck me after I had posted to Dennis, > and then read what you wrote, how > similar in focus were our messages. > > Peace, > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > - > > " Dennis Trainor " <dent16353> > > <Realization > > > Monday, February 10, 2003 8:50 AM > > Re: Re: speak > > > > > > > Dear Rob, > > > I'm really trying not to get sucked into > this. It > > > is a topic I am partial to but I've already done > a lot > > > of this kind of intellectualism and I don't > think it > > > got me anywhere. It's like trying to lift an > airplane > > > while being buckled down to one of the seats. > > > > > > Dennis > > > > > Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Dear Dan, This post is not going in a good direction. Dennis --- " dan330033 <dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > Realization , Dennis Trainor > <dent16353> > wrote: > > Dear Rob, > > Your question is a trap. It can't be answered > without > > intellectualizing. We'd just go round and round > in > > circles. Lets see if I can break the circle. > > We all are members of a group called > realization. > > Of course non of us will ever make it to a state > of > > realization because there is no place where > > realization exists and even if there was a place > > realization doesn't even exist. So we are all on > a > > path going nowhere to nothing. The only thing > left to > > do is argue about who sees the most nothing. No > > that's not politically correct. Argue about who > is > > the most nothing. Do I have it right now? > > Dennis > > No, Dennis -- but perhaps that's because you're > intellectualizing > about it :-) > > The only reason " nothing " is offered, is because > people > tend to mistake themselves for something. > > It's not that you're nothing and going nowhere -- > it's that who you are isn't an object of which > you know -- nor is it a subject which knows > of objects ... > > Realization isn't knowing that there is nothing to > know > and no realization to have. > > It is " getting clear " that everything you have taken > yourself > to be is not a basis for anything at all. > > Not that you drop everything and that's it. > > It's simultaneously saying hello to everything in a > new way. > > Which can be called " coming from one's prior > Condition " -- > anterior to one's investment in an activity of > becoming something in time, hence subject to > varying > conditions ... > > As this Condition, there is no " I " or " you " to > intellectualize, > nor is there something needing to be uncovered > or > thrown away -- " this " is never not the case > anywhere ... > > Even now and here ... > > Peace, > Dan > > > > Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Realization , Dennis Trainor <dent16353> wrote: > Dear Dan, > > This post is not going in a good direction. Dennis -- For whom? And how are you determining what is a good direction, and what isn't? -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Realization , "Judi Rhodes" <judirhodes@z...> wrote:> > Seems to me that Dan's message basically> boils down to something like: realization> is dropping everything.> > Dropping everything includes dropping thought.> Is that really intellectualizing?> > Rob> > ********* You can't drop thought, *you* ARE thought! > > JudiOops!But it only hurts when I laugh!:-)Peace,Dan******* Painful! LOL :-) Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Well Dan, This has been real, and this has been nice, but this hasn't been real nice. Let's do it again real soon. Dennis --- " dan330033 <dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > Realization , Dennis Trainor > <dent16353> > wrote: > > Dear Dan, > > > > This post is not going in a good direction. > > Dennis -- > For whom? And how are you determining what is > a good direction, and what isn't? > > -- Dan > > Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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