Guest guest Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Check out these beautiful sites:http://www.pathways-to-peace.com/http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html is there some way we can send these to mr. bush? deb x x x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 Realization , " deb " <willett@h...> wrote: > Check out these beautiful sites: > > http://www.pathways-to-peace.com/ > > http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html > > > is there some way we can send these to mr. bush? deb x x x Why not send him the Bhagavad Gita instead, so he can read what Krishna told Arjuna when Arjuna didn't want to fight? -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Hi Dan .. Please tell me what Krishna said? blessings on you .. deb x x > Why not send him the Bhagavad Gita instead, so he > can read what Krishna told Arjuna when Arjuna > didn't want to fight? > > -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Realization , " deb " <willett@h...> wrote: > Hi Dan .. Please tell me what Krishna said? > blessings on you .. deb x x > > > Why not send him the Bhagavad Gita instead, so he > > can read what Krishna told Arjuna when Arjuna > > didn't want to fight? > > > > -- Dan ********* He told him to gird up and fight, which is what Dan is doing here to your holier than thou " peace " nonsense. Catch a clue and see that your " peace " is nothing but the demonstration of the war going on within yourself. Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 You're very brave............but not the sharpest crayon in the box. Perhaps we should send you alone to fight the EYEraqis. Take a long walk, pweeeaaaase! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 I don't support this war, but I must say that most merkins are totallly unaware of the affects of war, except for what great uncle Kermit told them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Realization , " deb " <willett@h...> wrote: > Hi Dan .. Please tell me what Krishna said? > blessings on you .. deb x x > > > Why not send him the Bhagavad Gita instead, so he > > can read what Krishna told Arjuna when Arjuna > > didn't want to fight? > > > > -- Dan He said something like what is said in the Hebrew Bible: to everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose. A time to fight is a time to fight. Krishna disputed each of Arjuna's arguments for not fighting, including not wanting to kill beings he loved. One could conclude that Krishna, understanding the total situation, that Arjuna having been trained from birth to be a warrior had a part to play in it, knew that the battle at hand was to occur, there was no avoiding of it, and engaging it without reservation is what was called for. Krishna pointed out that death does not destroy anything real, and that one's responsibilities are intertwined with karma, or movements of energy already occurring, that nonavoidance of one's karma is liberation, not trying to get out of it. One transcends karma by not trying to escape karma, karma being the linking of cause and effect in the movements of human lives. Blessings on you, too, Deb, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Realization , " judirhodes " <judirhodes@z...> wrote: > Realization , " deb " <willett@h...> wrote: > > Hi Dan .. Please tell me what Krishna said? > > blessings on you .. deb x x > > > > > Why not send him the Bhagavad Gita instead, so he > > > can read what Krishna told Arjuna when Arjuna > > > didn't want to fight? > > > > > > -- Dan > > ********* He told him to gird up and fight, which is what Dan is > doing here to your holier than thou " peace " nonsense. > > Catch a clue and see that your " peace " is nothing but the > demonstration of the war going on within yourself. > > Judi The war that is one's self, is the most difficult war to catch a clue to. Whether that self is investing in having peace, or having war -- that self is constantly evading scrutiny. Until it has no place to hide. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 > > ********* He told him to gird up and fight, which is what Dan is > doing here to your holier than thou "peace" nonsense. > > Catch a clue and see that your "peace" is nothing but the > demonstration of the war going on within yourself. > > JudiThe war that is one's self, is the most difficult war to catch a clue to. Whether that self is investing in having peace, or having war -- that self is constantly evading scrutiny. Until it has no place to hide.-- Dan ******** Yes, exactly, being a "somebody" is what war is it-self. They know deep inside they're nothing but a little warring asshole and that's exactly what they don't want to look at. :-) Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Realization , " Judi Rhodes " <judirhodes@z...> wrote: > > > > ********* He told him to gird up and fight, which is what Dan is > > doing here to your holier than thou " peace " nonsense. > > > > Catch a clue and see that your " peace " is nothing but the > > demonstration of the war going on within yourself. > > > > Judi > > The war that is one's self, is the most difficult > war to catch a clue to. Whether that self is > investing in having peace, or having war -- > that self is constantly evading scrutiny. > Until it has no place to hide. > > -- Dan > > ******** Yes, exactly, being a " somebody " is what war is it-self. They know deep inside they're nothing but a little warring asshole and that's exactly what they don't want to look at. :-) > > Judi Yup, that's how it goes. It's easy to direct the frustration outward, at the misguided unspiritual people who are messing everything up for the good spiritual people like me. Looking into that me itself, is about the most difficult thing in the world. And it's only difficult because it exposes that I don't get to have what I'd like to believe can be had by me. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Judi, I've warned you before that insults, ad hominem attacks, and hurtful remarks will not be tolerated in this mail group. This recent message from you goes over the line. If it happens again, you'll be banned from this mail group. Regards, Rob (wearing his moderator hat) P.S. In case anybody is unfamiliar with " ad hominem " attacks, there is a nice explanation here: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html - " judirhodes " <judirhodes <Realization > Saturday, March 22, 2003 10:08 AM Re: in these troubled times > > ********* He told him to gird up and fight, which is what Dan is > doing here to your holier than thou " peace " nonsense. > > Catch a clue and see that your " peace " is nothing but the > demonstration of the war going on within yourself. > > Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Midge, Remarks of this kind are not permitted in this mail group: > You're very brave............but not the sharpest > crayon in the box. Thank you in advance for your maturity and restraint. Regards, Rob (moderator) - Midgeoiler Realization Saturday, March 22, 2003 5:51 PM Re: Re: in these troubled times You're very brave............but not the sharpest crayon in the box.Perhaps we should send you alone to fight the EYEraqis.Take a long walk, pweeeaaaase! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Dan and Judi, > > He said something like what is said in the Hebrew > Bible: to everything there is a season, and a time > to every purpose. Actually, Krishna gives two main reasons why Arjuna should fight. The first is that nobody can really kill or be killed because the Atman is immortal. The second is that Arjuna is a warrior and therefore his duty is to fight. This second reason, duty, is the relevant one here. Americans are citizens of a democracy, and as such, their duty is to speak out when they think their government is doing something wrong. I think it's absurd to tell people that they should refrain from carrying out their responsibilities as citizens because they aren't fully enlightened. It makes as much sense to say we shouldn't take care of our children because we aren't fully enlightened. And I think it's reprehensible to accuse somebody of a lack of spiritual development because we disagree with her political views. Regards, Rob P.S. The relevant section of the Gita begins at 2.11: http://www.realization.org/page/namedoc0/gita/gita2.htm - " dan330033 " <dan330033 <Realization > Saturday, March 22, 2003 5:41 PM Re: in these troubled times > > He said something like what is said in the Hebrew > Bible: to everything there is a season, and a time > to every purpose. > > A time to fight is a time to fight. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 - Rob Sacks Realization Saturday, March 22, 2003 11:05 PM Re: Re: in these troubled times Judi,I've warned you before that insults, ad hominemattacks, and hurtful remarks will not be tolerated inthis mail group.This recent message from you goes over the line.If it happens again, you'll be banned from this mailgroup.Regards,Rob (wearing his moderator hat) ********* Thanks for proving my point so well Rob! Here it is again - ******** Yes, exactly, being a "somebody" is what war is it-self. They know deep inside they're nothing but a little warring asshole and that's exactly what they don't want to look at. :-) > > JudiYup, that's how it goes.It's easy to direct the frustration outward,at the misguided unspiritual peoplewho are messing everything up forthe good spiritual people like me.Looking into that me itself, is aboutthe most difficult thing in the world.And it's only difficult because it exposesthat I don't get to have what I'dlike to believe can be had by me.-- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Realization Saturday, March 22, 2003 11:05 PM Re: Re: in these troubled times Judi,I've warned you before that insults, ad hominemattacks, and hurtful remarks will not be tolerated inthis mail group.This recent message from you goes over the line.If it happens again, you'll be banned from this mailgroup. ******** And may I remind you Rob, that realization is necessarily "hurtful". That being the whole entire point! There is no way around it and to think otherwise, you are still in the practice of kidding yourself. It's a slap in the face no matter how you cut it. Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Realization Saturday, March 22, 2003 11:05 PM Re: Re: in these troubled times Judi,I've warned you before that insults, ad hominemattacks, and hurtful remarks will not be tolerated inthis mail group.This recent message from you goes over the line.If it happens again, you'll be banned from this mailgroup. ******** And may I remind you Rob, that realization is necessarily "hurtful". That being the whole entire point! There is no way around it and to think otherwise, you are still in the practice of kidding yourself. It's a slap in the face no matter how you cut it. Judi ******* And that being said, the more a person resists, the more it's going to hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 Dear Tanya, .. > I have often felt that Judi ought to be banned from the > board for her unnecessarily rude and hurtful comments. > However I never can quite get over the gnawing feeling > that she does make some good points and that helps me > to find the courage to 'get real' myself and stop worrying > about what other people think and feel and figure out > what's real underneath all the social conditioning and > trying to be nice to people! Thanks a lot for posting these comments about your experience. It's a big help. I hope you won't mind if I ask a whole bunch of questions about what you said. I'm trying to understand your experience, but it's hard for me. (Don't feel obligated to answer if you don't want to. Some of these questions are kind of nosy.) One of the things you wrote isn't quite clear to me. You said that Judi's comments are " unnecessarily " rude and hurtful. Does this mean she could help you just as much without being so rude and hurtful? > ...she does make some good points and that helps me > to find the courage to 'get real' myself and stop worrying > about what other people think and feel and figure out > what's real underneath all the social conditioning and > trying to be nice to people! I've read this paragraph about 15 times in an effort to understand it. I appreciate the fact that Judi's comments help you. I hear what you're saying, and I believe it. But I'm having trouble understanding it. I don't understand how rude remarks help you see what's real. How does that work? Is nastiness more real than kindness? And how does she give you courage? Are you inspired by her example? Do you watch her say rude and hurtful things, and that makes you feel like you don't have to worry about hurting people either? Or is it that Judi pushes your buttons in a skillful way that uncovers particular thoughts and feelings in you? Sort of like a kind of therapy? Does she make you aware of feelings that you otherwise wouldn't be aware of? I'm wondering if this has to do with personality types or psychological issues. Is it possible that the kind of benefits you get from Judi's remarks are only applicable to people who are especially caught up in the burden of being nice to other people? Um.... maybe we can try to approach this from a different angle. How about this: Ramana Maharshi was just about the most famous Self-realized sage of the 20th century. If you've read the transcripts and descriptions of the recorded conversations that took place at his ashram over a period of decades, you know that: (a) a lot of realizing happened there; (b) people were extremely courteous, civil, and polite. If people could see reality at Sri Ramanasramam without being rude to each other, why do we have to be rude here? > I don't think this board should be censored on account > of people's feelings, whenever I come here I come > prepared to have my buttons pushed. I don't want to take anything away from you that's beneficial. But here's the dilemma as I see it. If we allow verbal abuse, it discourages a lot of people from speaking up. A lot of people are shy about posting messages to begin with. If they know that they can get screamed at in an apparently irrational way for saying something completely innocuous, they will be even more inhibited. Actually, the situation is even worse than this. If we allow verbal abuse, most people won't remain here at all. They'll observe what goes on here for a few days and say, " This is nuts. I'm out of here. " And there's also a kind of moral issue. This is a public forum where anybody can wander in. There are children here. I don't want newcomers wandering in and getting smacked in the face because they expressed a perfectly inoffensive opinion that some self-appointed arbiter of reality has decided isn't real. It seems to me that if you want to be hurt by Judi, that's perfectly okay, but it's perfectly okay because you've consented. Consent has to be required. But there's no practical way to set up this group so some people consent and others don't. The whole group has to be one way or the other. It's like opening a restaurant and deciding whether we'll allow smoking. In this case, I'm pretty sure the potential clientele for " non-smoking " is a lot bigger than " smoking. " If there's some way to reconcile these issues, please tell me. I'm willing to compromise or set up the rules in a different way if somebody has a better idea. Best regards, Rob - " Tanya Davis " <tanyarowan <Realization > Sunday, March 23, 2003 12:46 PM (unknown) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > Dear Judi, > > > Dan: Where did I say anything even close to > > the idea that people shouldn't speak their minds? > > You addressed your letter to me as well as Judi... > > > Judi: No I never said that either, and it seems to > > me that Rob doesn't want us speaking our minds so > > that's what he projects onto us. > > My earlier remarks applied to things that Judi had > written, not Dan. I apologize for the misunderstanding. > > Judi, the word I used was " tell " , not " said. " You told > her in the same way that some people tell a dog to get > off the couch: you smacked her. When you smack > somebody for doing something, you send a message > that they shouldn't do it. > > Best regards, > > Rob > ******* Guilty as charged. Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 > > ******* Guilty as charged. LOL. - " judirhodes " <judirhodes <Realization > Wednesday, March 26, 2003 1:36 PM Re: in these troubled times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > > > ******* Guilty as charged. > > LOL. > ****** You think that's funny do you? :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 > ****** You think that's funny do you? :-) Hell, I'm safe. I'm not going anywhere near the couch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > > > ****** You think that's funny do you? :-) > > Hell, I'm safe. I'm not going anywhere near > the couch. ****** Nothing ventured, nothing gained. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 Realization , " judirhodes " <judirhodes@z...> wrote: > Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > > > > > ****** You think that's funny do you? :-) > > > > Hell, I'm safe. I'm not going anywhere near > > the couch. > > ****** Nothing ventured, nothing gained. :-) ***** Nothing to worry about, just put yer head right here. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 Realization , " judirhodes " <judirhodes@z...> wrote: > Realization , " judirhodes " <judirhodes@z...> > wrote: > > Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > > > > > > > ****** You think that's funny do you? :-) > > > > > > Hell, I'm safe. I'm not going anywhere near > > > the couch. > > > > ****** Nothing ventured, nothing gained. :-) > > ***** Nothing to worry about, just put yer head right here. :-) ****** Like Wayne said, why do you hesitate? Hmmm? Perhaps that's what needs looking into? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 Thank you for your questions Rob, they were really helpful to me. I will try to answer them as best I can - if my explanations are a bit laboured it is because I am figuring it out myself as I write. Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > One of the things you wrote isn't quite clear to me. You > said that Judi's comments are " unnecessarily " rude and > hurtful. Does this mean she could help you just as much > without being so rude and hurtful? I didn't mean to say that her comments are 'unnecessarily rude and hurtful' I said that I have often felt that they were. My initial reaction has been one of 'there's no need for that'. But actually I think there is a place for rudeness as I'll explain below. > I don't > understand how rude remarks help you see what's real. > How does that work? Is nastiness more real than > kindness? I am not a fully realised human being. Therefore to pretend that I have knowledge of this state is pointless. From many different sources I have heard that it is necessary to be at the end of the line, or the rope, to be ready to die, to give up completely everything that is held dear, to be able to let go of all that I think I am. It is clear that realisation is not a process of becoming, it is the end of becoming, not the end of a journey but a giving up of the journey etc - many people have said it all better than I can. Now most of the time I am pretty calm. I could say that I have a family who love me and lots of good friends and I spend my days in constructive activity and service to others and spiritual growth and I can tell myself a story in which I come out a pretty damn fine and wonderfully happy, peaceful and serene person. But this is not real, it's a castle built on sand, underneath it is pain, suffering, self-seeking, insecurity, fear and a lot of the time, most of the time I am not even aware of this, I actually think I am happy. I actually think that all of this activity is leading me to some ultimate safe happiness. Then some bitch on the internet does what she does best and I get angry, outraged. I want to tell her not to behave like that I want to wipe that smug smile : ) of her face and put her in her place etc. And how dare she claim to be enlightened and behave like that when I have been trying so hard to be good and kind and nice and loving and I'm not enlightened. It helps to wake me up. If what I have is real then it cannot be threatened by someone else's words. If I am talking crap then please tell me I am talking crap so I can stop. I want to be aware of myself and why I am doing what I am doing and if everything is going along nicely then I can give myself a pat on the back and say 'keep it up' and forget that I am living in hell until it all falls apart again and I am that much older but no wiser. > And how does she give you courage? Are you inspired > by her example? Do you watch her say rude and hurtful > things, and that makes you feel like you don't have to > worry about hurting people either? I do not have the power to hurt anyone but myself. If someone chooses to take what I do as an excuse to be hurt then that's up to them. > Or is it that Judi pushes your buttons in a skillful way > that uncovers particular thoughts and feelings in you? > Sort of like a kind of therapy? Does she make you > aware of feelings that you otherwise wouldn't be > aware of? I think I've covered that. > I'm wondering if this has to do with personality types or > psychological issues. Is it possible that the kind of > benefits you get from Judi's remarks are only > applicable to people who are especially caught up > in the burden of being nice to other people? I don't think so. > If we allow verbal abuse, it discourages a lot of people > from speaking up. A lot of people are shy about posting > messages to begin with. If they know that they can get > screamed at in an apparently irrational way for saying > something completely innocuous, they will be even more > inhibited. > > Actually, the situation is even worse than this. If we > allow verbal abuse, most people won't remain here > at all. They'll observe what goes on here for a few > days and say, " This is nuts. I'm out of here. " > > And there's also a kind of moral issue. This is a public > forum where anybody can wander in. There are children > here. I don't want newcomers wandering in and getting > smacked in the face because they expressed a perfectly > inoffensive opinion that some self-appointed arbiter > of reality has decided isn't real. This board claims to be for people who want to 'share their experiences while enlightenment is happening'. I think if people are reaching a state where enlightenment is a real possibility then they are not going to be afraid of anyone disagreeing with them or calling them names and if they are then they need to get over it and maybe Judi can help them do that. > It seems to me that if you want to be hurt by Judi, that's > perfectly okay, but it's perfectly okay because you've > consented. Consent has to be required. But there's > no practical way to set up this group so some people > consent and others don't. The whole group has to be > one way or the other. It's like opening a restaurant and > deciding whether we'll allow smoking. In this case, I'm > pretty sure the potential clientele for " non-smoking " is a > lot bigger than " smoking. " Judi can't hurt me, she can only help me because that is what I choose for her to do. I have to keep the focus on MYSELF - that is what I'm here to learn about. If the group has a rule that no-one is allowed to be negative about anyone else it will turn into 'aren't we all wonderful and so spiritual so let's stroke each other's ego's for a while' with people who have no idea what they're talking about trying to be guru's. Thanks for being there Rob, Tanya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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