Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > Dan and Judi, > > > > He said something like what is said in the Hebrew > > Bible: to everything there is a season, and a time > > to every purpose. > > Actually, Krishna gives two main reasons why Arjuna > should fight. The first is that nobody can really kill or be > killed because the Atman is immortal. The second is that > Arjuna is a warrior and therefore his duty is to fight. > > This second reason, duty, is the relevant one here. > > Americans are citizens of a democracy, and as such, > their duty is to speak out when they think their > government is doing something wrong. > > I think it's absurd to tell people that they should refrain > from carrying out their responsibilities as citizens > because they aren't fully enlightened. > > It makes as much sense to say we shouldn't take care > of our children because we aren't fully enlightened. > > And I think it's reprehensible to accuse somebody of > a lack of spiritual development because we disagree > with her political views. > > Regards, > > Rob > > P.S. The relevant section of the Gita begins at 2.11: > http://www.realization.org/page/namedoc0/gita/gita2.htm Rob -- I wonder, did you read my whole letter, or just the part you took out of context? I also wonder: have you read the whole Gita, or just the parts that support your idea that there are only two main reasons? You say " actually Krishna gave two main reasons " as if this is a correction of my letter, when in fact, I alluded directly to one of those two reasons in my original post, and indirectly but clearly to the second. I added an important additional point, which you apparently dispute, but which I will show you below is given in the Gita. I reprinted the whole letter below, so you can see what I'm talking about. In it, I stated that " Krishna pointed out that death does not destroy anything real " which is essentially the first of your " two main reasons. " I also said, " One could conclude that Krishna, understanding the total situation, that Arjuna having been trained from birth to be a warrior had a part to play in it, knew that the battle at hand was to occur, there was no avoiding of it, and engaging it without reservation is what was called for. " I think that this covers essentially your second point, although I reframed " duty " as " engaging it without reservation. " Certainly there is stuff about doing one's duty in the Gita, no doubt about that -- my reframe is largely because I see much of the talk about duty as a way of interpreting social expectations and class structures of that time and culture in India. But yes, duty is clearly a teaching that is given. Now, as to the point I made about doing what it is time to be done, in accordance with movements of energy, and finding liberation through participation in that movement rather than avoiding ... Here are some of the relevant passages from the beginning part of the Gita: Chapt. 2 27. To that which is born, death is indeed certain; and to that which is dead, birth is certain. Wherefore, about the unavoidable thing, thou oughtst not to grieve. 57. Whoso, without attachment anywhere, on meeting with anything good or bad, not hates, his knowledge becomes steady. 71. That man attains peace, who, abandoning all desires, moves about without attachment, without selfishness, without vanity. Chapt. 3 27. Actions are wrought in all cases by the energies of Nature. He whose mind is deluded by egotism thinks `I am the doer'. 28. But he who knows the truth, O mightyarmed, about the divisions of the energies and (their) functions, is not attached, thinking that the energies act upon the energies. 29. Those deluded by the energies of Nature are attached to the functions of the energies. He who knows the All should not unsettle the unwise who know not the All. 30. Renouncing all action in Me, with thy thought resting on the Self, being free from hope, free form selfishness, devoid of fever, do thou fight. 31. Men who constantly practise this teaching of Mine with faith and without cavilling, they too are liberated from actions. 32. But those who, carping at this, My teaching, practise it not, - know them as deluded in all knowledge, as senseless men doomed to destruction. 33. Even the man of knowledge acts in conformity with his own nature ; (all) beings follow (their) nature ; what shall coercion avail ? 4. Not by abstaining from action does man win actionlessness, nor by mere renunciation does he attain perfection. 5. None, verily, even for an instant, ever remains doing no action; for every one is driven helpless to action by the energies born of Nature. I think that's enough to support the validity of what I said. Next, you added this tirade: > Americans are citizens of a democracy, and as such, > their duty is to speak out when they think their > government is doing something wrong. Since you're the one citing what Krishna said about duty, I suggest you reread it. Nowhere does he say anything about speaking out against the government. Rather, he raises questions about how the society would be affected negatively, as well as perceptions of Arjuna, if Arjuna would try to avoid his role as warrior. > I think it's absurd to tell people that they should refrain > from carrying out their responsibilities as citizens > because they aren't fully enlightened. I ask you Rob, where did I say anything like this? Show me any statement I wrote that is remotely like what you said above? Where did I say anything even close to the idea that people shouldn't speak their minds? You addressed your letter to me as well as Judi, so I'd like to know how you see me fitting into this. I'm not clear, either, that Judi said what you portray above. > It makes as much sense to say we shouldn't take care > of our children because we aren't fully enlightened. Where are you getting this stuff from? Did I say anything about how you shouldn't speak unless you're enlightened? > And I think it's reprehensible to accuse somebody of > a lack of spiritual development because we disagree > with her political views. Where did I accuse anyone of a lack of spiritual development, Rob? Where are you getting that? Since you are making an issue of not attacking people personally, wouldn't you say that it's also an attack on the person to falsely accuse a person of attacking someone in a way that they didn't? Nothing is out of place, Dan >>>He said something like what is said in the Hebrew Bible: to everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose. A time to fight is a time to fight. Krishna disputed each of Arjuna's arguments for not fighting, including not wanting to kill beings he loved. One could conclude that Krishna, understanding the total situation, that Arjuna having been trained from birth to be a warrior had a part to play in it, knew that the battle at hand was to occur, there was no avoiding of it, and engaging it without reservation is what was called for. Krishna pointed out that death does not destroy anything real, and that one's responsibilities are intertwined with karma, or movements of energy already occurring, that nonavoidance of one's karma is liberation, not trying to get out of it. One transcends karma by not trying to escape karma, karma being the linking of cause and effect in the movements of human lives. Blessings on you, too, Deb, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 ..I ask you Rob, where did I say anything like this? Show me any statement I wrote that is remotely like what you said above? Where did I say anything even close to the idea that people shouldn't speak their minds? You addressed your letter to me as well as Judi, so I'd like to know how you see me fitting into this. I'm not clear, either, that Judi said what you portray above. ******** No I never said that either, and it seems to me that Rob doesn't want us speaking our minds so that's what he projects onto us. Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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