calm abiding

March 26, 2003

Lots of prattle here on the topic of realisation..what it is and what it isn't.

The question at least for me is " Is there calm abiding?"

I suggest to those in quest of the great enlightenment that if your enquiry of self or who am I and your various practices of mindfulness , self remembering , following the breath , Mantra ,Tantra and what ever else you come up with don’t bring you to eventual calm abiding all the chat in the world might not do much.

I feel it is very important for the sincere and honest to watch yourselves..Do you have a practice?

Do you invoke it? Do you practice daily? If you can not sit for a half hour silently on a cushion twice a day then I seriouslt doubt that you are practicing.

For those of us who are not the high octane big Kahuna Non dualist it would serve us well to re read such books as Jack Kornfields

"A Path With Heart"

"After The Ecstasy The The Laundry"

If one of us can curb a little of our habit energies then we are beginning to wake up.If two or more are gathered in the practice then maybe eventually we might even come up with a better solution to such problems that we find ourselves in right now in Iraq.

Krishna and Arjuna are nothing less then ourselves..be oh therefore Yogis all you realized and unrealized souls.

Lets learn to 'Be Still" .

Practice is all we have.

March 27, 2003

Dear Alan,

> I feel it is very important for the sincere and

> honest to watch yourselves..Do you have a

> practice?

I agree with you. But while we're paddling our rafts,

I like to remember that there are people around us

who have already reached the other shore. To them

we probably look pretty silly, pumping our arms to

make an imaginary journey from Here to Here. If

they occasionally laugh out loud at us, who can blame

them? I try to be encouraged by it, knowing that if I

just stopped imagining the river, I'd be laughing too.

Practically,

Rob

-

alan kuntz

Realization

Wednesday, March 26, 2003 2:40 PM

calm abiding

March 27, 2003

To them

we probably look pretty silly, pumping our arms to

make an imaginary journey from Here to Here.

Well Rob if there is a "Them" who has reached the other shore then they would understand.I hardly think they would be laughing out of spite and if they are they aren't helping to many folks on these types of lists.I don’t believe they have come very close to anything equitable to compassion.

I certaintly don’t need their approval besides I am sure I have that anyways.

There are some folks out here who haven’t a clue as to whats going on but they have simply been drawn in to a spiritual quest for various reasons and they need some sound direction. A lot of stuff out here (on the net) that is considered spiritual wisdom simply discourages one from actually doing the great "work" and even worse may hurl one into big clouds of dreaming.Dreaming is fine I suppose if the dreamer is awake.

Just simply saying we need some sound direction which is no direction but simply the Here and Now isn’t enough.We need tools..we should talk about tools to use to get from here to here.There reason that I am not fully present is because I have habits of dreaming.Why do I dream?Studying these facts along with tools is important.A key word that may help some is simply TOOLS and COMMUNITY that will foster TOOLS.

I think

Ideas such as taught in buddhism 101 on the subject of 'calm abiding' might help others.For some here it might be good to search out this term as well as some tools to use to get here. Peace!

-

Rob Sacks

Realization

Wednesday, March 26, 2003 11:04 PM

Re: calm abiding

Dear Alan,

> I feel it is very important for the sincere and

> honest to watch yourselves..Do you have a

> practice?

I agree with you. But while we're paddling our rafts,

I like to remember that there are people around us

who have already reached the other shore. To them

we probably look pretty silly, pumping our arms to

make an imaginary journey from Here to Here. If

they occasionally laugh out loud at us, who can blame

them? I try to be encouraged by it, knowing that if I

just stopped imagining the river, I'd be laughing too.

Practically,

Rob

-

alan kuntz

Realization

Wednesday, March 26, 2003 2:40 PM

calm abiding

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March 27, 2003

Dear Alan,

> I certainly don’t need their approval besides I

> am sure I have that anyways.

Yes I think you're right.

> There are some folks out here who haven’t a clue

> as to what's going on but they have simply been

> drawn in to a spiritual quest for various reasons

> and they need some sound direction.

Yes. I'd go even further Some folks? I'd say all of

them! All of us. We're drawn to this stuff because

we're dissatisfied with our lives and therefore we

want something else. We want some X, some

changed state of affairs, some changed "me",

where we'll be happy.

If we didn't have that sort of motive, we would be

enlightened already.

> A lot of stuff out here (on the net) that is

> considered spiritual wisdom simply discourages

> one from actually doing the great "work" and even

> worse may hurl one into big clouds of dreaming.

Yep. I think most people just want a nicer dream.

It's very hard to stop dreaming.

From your recommendation of calm abiding I'm

guessing you have a lot of respect for Tibetan

Buddhism. The safest thing, it seems to me, for

somebody who wants to pursue this kind of stuff is

to throw themselves into some established tradition

like Tibetan Buddhism and follow whatever system

exists there.

> A key word that may help some is simply TOOLS

> and COMMUNITY that will foster TOOLS.

This makes me think I should go the nearest Kagyu

center or something similar and sign up. Isn't that the

logical thing to do?

I'm curious, is that basically what you've done (not

necessarily Kagyu, it's just an example)?

Some people have chosen not to do that sort of thing --

myself included -- I'm curious about your choices.

Peacefully,

Rob

-

alan kuntz

Realization

Thursday, March 27, 2003 12:41 PM

Re: calm abiding

To them

we probably look pretty silly, pumping our arms to

make an imaginary journey from Here to Here.

Well Rob if there is a "Them" who has reached the other shore then they would understand.I hardly think they would be laughing out of spite and if they are they aren't helping to many folks on these types of lists.I don’t believe they have come very close to anything equitable to compassion.

I certaintly don’t need their approval besides I am sure I have that anyways.

There are some folks out here who haven’t a clue as to whats going on but they have simply been drawn in to a spiritual quest for various reasons and they need some sound direction. A lot of stuff out here (on the net) that is considered spiritual wisdom simply discourages one from actually doing the great "work" and even worse may hurl one into big clouds of dreaming.Dreaming is fine I suppose if the dreamer is awake.

Just simply saying we need some sound direction which is no direction but simply the Here and Now isn’t enough.We need tools..we should talk about tools to use to get from here to here.There reason that I am not fully present is because I have habits of dreaming.Why do I dream?Studying these facts along with tools is important.A key word that may help some is simply TOOLS and COMMUNITY that will foster TOOLS.

I think

Ideas such as taught in buddhism 101 on the subject of 'calm abiding' might help others.For some here it might be good to search out this term as well as some tools to use to get here. Peace!

March 29, 2003

-

Rob Sacks

Realization

Thursday, March 27, 2003 1:56 PM

Re: calm abiding

Alan:

> There are some folks out here who haven’t a clue

> as to what's going on but they have simply been

> drawn in to a spiritual quest for various reasons

> and they need some sound direction.

Rob:

Yes. I'd go even further Some folks? I'd say all of

them! All of us. We're drawn to this stuff because

we're dissatisfied with our lives and therefore we

want something else. We want some X, some

changed state of affairs, some changed "me",

where we'll be happy.

Alan: Yeah ! I stand corrected.

Yes I think another way of saying it is that we have questions about ourselves ,our lives , relationships and some sort of desire to have some sort of creative expression of our selves..There seems to be this continual desire to have a sense of myself.Why?

Anyhow this all relates to Advaita practice of self enquiry, of asking the big question 'who am I' I suppose.Again this is inspiring but the data in the head (the question 'who am I' as recommended by Ramana and followers doesn’t seem to be enough with out some conscious effort daily(A will to be still and the practice of sitting meditation born out of that desire.As many folks would say We need to understand..Understand what? Ourselves - our weaknesses ,strengths ,desires ,wishes.I personally go back and forth from wanting something more and nothing , from doing something more out guilt for being who I am as I am and letting go ,slowing down and just listening closer. I have to regain my center in order to even begin to observe my self to even begin to ask questions and come to know myself better.Some might say why don’t you just "Be Here Now"

That’s why we practice because we are hardly ever present.>Whats really present are habit energies ,Mechjhanical reactive response to outside stimulous.For a lot of us to see how absurd the word phrase "be here now' is I think you would have to understand it as a two edged sword or at least a parodox or contradiction.

I can be here now quite spontaneously which is always quite emotionally charged reactive response or I can get a sense of my self through mindfulness practices,close self observation , tools such as following my breath and sense tightness,rigidness of body and then once I see this I now see that I am not really present..not fully…I am stuck some where in mind storms ,emotion storms.I just can’t see straight.A daily practice of sitting meditation helps ask "Who Am I"? from the Ramana Maharshi ,Gaganji ,Papaji perspective self enquiry or whether its Gurdjieff practice or Christian Contemplation or what ever.

It does seem to me that we begin our quest with a sense of something is wrong with me ,something missing ,not understood or there is some sort of longing under the conscious awareness level.

The questions are as diverse as people and yet maybe they are the same basic questions

Rob:If we didn't have that sort of motive, we would be

enlightened already.

Alan: Yeah well maybe enlightenment just wouldn’t matter..I mean we probably would care less about using word phrases such as enlightenment.

What is enlightenment?

What is knowing myself!

A Constantly changing or evolving sense of myself and some times there is that "calm abiding".

I just used that phrase probably more from the word phrase"Prayer of Quiet" taken from the christian contemplatives..Tibetans I guess refer to 'Calm abiding' as this is the end result of many years of practice.Calm abiding it seems to me has many definitions from the Tibetan perspective all of which can be said happens after some turbulence or storm internally "winds are kicked up"and some folks like to refer to "The Winds" or Kundalini as these all relate to emotions and the chaos and confusion born out of all of that which the Tibetans refer to as "The bardo of Becoming"

> A lot of stuff out here (on the net) that is

> considered spiritual wisdom simply discourages

> one from actually doing the great "work" and even

> worse may hurl one into big clouds of dreaming.

Alan: And I probably just added some clouds of confusion too LOL. Yes some of us want to change.We simply want to be kinder,Gentler and honest ,honest to ourselves and honest to others.

Rob:Yep. I think most people just want a nicer dream.

It's very hard to stop dreaming.

Alan: Yeah well I want to stop dreaming.I guess the only way I can do that is to be able to distinguish dreaming from my reality.How did I get here? From dreaming! Do I want to be some where else? If not I am probably experiencing calm abiding or either chaos and hell or maybe both.I am here anyways and right now even having some fun.It would be nice if it helps some how.

Rob:

From your recommendation of calm abiding I'm

guessing you have a lot of respect for Tibetan

Buddhism.

Alan:Yeah I do but I am not an official precepted initiated Tibetan Buddhist or Zen Buddhist.Now that really sounds hypocrital after my soap box statements about sound teaching and teachers. For what ever its worth I refer to my self as a Christian Contemplative which doesn’t seem to find favor or impress to many folks ,I think most contemplatives are just open..Open yet careful..You know like in the sense of Shunryu Susukis "Zen Mind Beginners Mind"

Rob:

The safest thing, it seems to me, for

somebody who wants to pursue this kind of stuff is

to throw themselves into some established tradition

like Tibetan Buddhism and follow whatever system

exists there.

Alan: Yeah I agree

> A key word that may help some is simply TOOLS

> and COMMUNITY that will foster TOOLS.

Rob:This makes me think I should go the nearest Kagyu

center or something similar and sign up. Isn't that the

logical thing to do?

Alan: It might be but I don’t know.I don’t know anything about "Kagyu"

It’s a new term for me.

If Kagyu practice has to do with various tools or methods of visualization practices,Mantras etc, as this might pertain to the Tantra teaching of the Kalachakra tantras you definitely need to have some qualified repretable teachers.

Rob:I'm curious, is that basically what you've done (not

necessarily Kagyu, it's just an example)?

Alan:

Don’t know anything about Kagyu but I will study that now

My personal practice began when I was born you could say.It began with doubting and questioning my association with Catholism then to extreme christian fundamentalism to reading 2nd Peter after dropping a bunch of lsd..It was quite of an awakening..An empathic and compassionate one and yet I had no spirit of discrimination..Sometimes I think I was fodder for the great Brain washer teachers of the world

I began transcendental meditation in 1976 -77 and wanted to learn how to levitate.Maharishi Mahesh Yogi talked about enlightenement from the perspective of the total fulfillment of all desires.Single and 21 I couldn’t or didn’t want to resist that idea.My meditations were really blissful when I first began to meditate twice a day and I was experiencing a lot of ecstatic bliss..My spine use to hum and I felt like I was going to disappear..

I thought I was enlightened hehe.

My daily practice is that of "Willigis Jager" And Thomas Keating and the author of the Cloud of Unknowing

Rob:Some people have chosen not to do that sort of thing --

myself included -- I'm curious about your choices.

Alan:My choice is just using my t.m mantra in conjunction with following my breath and body awareness and posture.

Sometimes shikantza (just sitting) with eyes open…25 ,minutes twice a day and try to remember following my breath and just being present to where ever I am even if that’s just observing in myself -mind and emotional storms…This and I sit when ever I can with a group of Contemplatives from Oregon calling themselves "Seven Thunders" teachers name is father and Roshi Pat Hawk who is from the lineage of Robert Aitken Roshi.

I also use to sit with a Gurdjieff group and study all the basic 1st,2nd and 3rd series materials by Ouspensky ,John Bennet..etc

Katheline Riordin Speeths book " Gurdjieff Work" is a must read for folks heading in the direction of Gurdjieff.She was brought up in the "Gurdjieff Work" Her work points to anything Buddhist..She was a faculty member of Naropa Institute.

Personally I draw a lot of Inspiration from just about any group who fosters any type of meditation practice where all can just come together and sit.

Christian Contemplatives vary in their practices.Its just not a Christian thing ,Jewish ,Buddhist.

It is about finding sdome tools of meditation and practices to use through out the day just to become more present and centered..Hence "Calm Abiding"

Next stop…Sitting all day retreat meditation with John Travis and friends

http://www.sbmg.org/RC.htm

Going from here to here.Thanks for the chat Rob.

I will study up on Kagyu and tell you what I find.

Alan..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................

March 31, 2003

Dear Alan,

> There seems to be this continual desire to have a

> sense of myself. Why?

That's a good question, to say the least.

> Anyhow this all relates to Advaita practice of self enquiry,

> of asking the big question 'who am I' I suppose...

Yes I think so too. Judi Rhodes put this question to me the

other night in her forum in wonderful language -- alive and

modern and intimate and comprehensible. I'll quote Judi's

words here in case anyone else finds them as motivational

as I did:

> Hi Rob - let me suggest this, and I mean this seriously,

> INSTEAD of always "fighting" all the time, which in essense,

> is what you're seeing that your "life" is, forget that for now,

> and look back to what all this "fight" is all about *underneath*

> it all. Do you understand what I'm talking about? In other

> words, forget about trying to make the "story" of Rob's life

> work out, and look deeper than that. Look into "Rob" himself

> very "objectively", "brutally" even, STEP OUT, and see what

> is it that's making him "tick". And I mean this in all

> seriousness. It's a "heart to heart", not that you have to have

> with me, but more importantly with yourself. Understanding is

> "bigger" than yourself. In other words, it's not about making

> me happy Rob, or doing what I want, so I will look at you in

> a certain way, or anybody else, but standing on your own, by

> yourself, almost as if you were on your death bed, looking

> back over your life, standing outside of yourself, and seeing

> what it was that you were really trying to do, in other words,

> what is was that was making you *tick* in the first place?

> That's the seriousness and the deep profoundness that you

> will either choose to confront or not. Most people of course,

> do not. Like I've said, I can't stress enough the "seriousness"

> of what this "self" realization business is all about. Go as

> "deep" as you can into yourself, to understand yourself, no

> one, not even God, could ask anymore from you.

>

> Like the song lyrics, "What's it all about Alfie?"

Back to your email, Alan:

> Again this is inspiring but the data in the head (the question

> 'who am I' as recommended by Ramana and followers

> doesn’t seem to be enough with out some conscious effort

> daily

I think Ramana would agree with you. He posed the question

but he also posed a method for answering it, and the method

is a kind of meditative practice which he said has to be done

all the time (during all the waking hours). Many of his

"followers" in the West ignore the fact that he taught a kind

of intense practice, so I question whether they are really his

followers.

> That’s why we practice because we are hardly ever present.>

I've found over the years that with effort, it's possible to train

myself so that it's possible to be quietly present a lot of the

time. However increasingly I find myself wondering whether

this really leads to anything significant. The outgoing tendency

of mind is always underneath ready to spring back into action.

The ominpresent "knowledge" of a "me" that needs to be taken

care of is always lurking in the background. If there really is

"real" enlightenment, it seems to be something different from

this meditative clear simple empty attentiveness.

> Alan: It might be but I don’t know.I don’t know anything

> about "Kagyu" It’s a new term for me.

You probably looked it up by now and found out that it's

one of the "denominations" of Tibetan Buddhism. I only

mentioned it as a concrete example of a community that

provides tools (and teachers to use the tools, etc.)

> Rob:If we didn't have that sort of motive, we would be > enlightened already.

> Alan: Yeah well maybe enlightenment just wouldn’t

> matter..I mean we probably would care less about

> using word phrases such as enlightenment.

I think as long as we believe we can improve ourselves,

enlightenment is impossible. When we abandon all

hope for fixing "myself" ... well it's like Jesus said,

he who loses his life will gain it. I think we have

to give up on "myself" entirely. Apparently surrender is

pretty serious business.

> For what ever its worth I refer to my self as a Christian

> Contemplative which doesn’t seem to find favor or

> impress to many folks

Haha I'm impressed! I approve heartily! I've read

St. John of the Cross and Meister Eckhart and

Bernadette Roberts.

> My personal practice began when I was born you could

> say.It began with doubting and questioning my association

> with Catholism...

Thanks for the biographical details. I read it with interest

and attention even though no particular replies are coming

to mind about the details.

> I began transcendental meditation in 1976 -77 and wanted

> to learn how to levitate

Haha that gives us something in common. About the time

I finally got very serious about this stuff (after diddling around

with it for 25 years) I also got a pilots license .... flying and

meditation were connected ... I only recognized it afterward.

> My spine use to hum and I felt like I was going to disappear..

I thought I was enlightened hehe.

What connection do you think exists, if any, between

those yoga/kundalini experiences and enlightenment?

I'll look up the various people and links you mentioned ...

most are new to me.

Thanks for the fun chat.

Best wishes,

Rob

alan kuntz

Realization

Saturday, March 29, 2003 3:30 PM

Re: calm abiding

April 8, 2003

Hello Rob and all you other wonderful people here on the realisation channel.

I do appreciate your replies and do appreciate the dialogue.I regret being out of touch with email these days.It takes me a few days before I can return replies due to my type of employment.

Your reply Rob is packed with a lot of answers and some wonderful questions.It will take me some time to reply with some sincere thought.

Yes what Judi saith is pretty much what its all about.

Again articulating the words is good and definitely shows signs of development of 3rd state consciousness "self reflective self consciousness" which if continued eventually ends up in 4th state cosmic consciousness or objective consciousness..All that said It doesn’t matter.>What does matter for me is the eventual will ,desire and ability to simply love where it will be most optimum for the one and the whole.

As for Ramana's meditative practice all I was trying to say is that I doubt that many people who talk about it actually practice it but as a practice in conjunction with a daily meditation on the cushion type practice with that be vippasana,zazen,shamtha,mantra or sacred word or some type of visualization practice there will be no development of attention and no need or desire to practice ramana's method because there just wouldn’t be a question..If there is a question tht would bring folks to what Gurdjieff called the "Terror of the situation" which is 'self reflective self consciousness yet at the developmental level of 'identification with my nothingness'

It is the taste of the void that is painful and when that pain sets in one then will begin to remember the practice of self enquiry , self observation, and may be so inclined to seek out from a prayerful heart the consolation and bliss that the mystic masters tell us about.

Rob: What connection do you think exists, if any, between

those yoga/kundalini experiences and enlightenment?

Alan:For me basiclly it is as I mentioned above regarding consolation and bliss.

From Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross as well as people like Evelyn Underhill and certainly Ken Wilber the Kundalini experiences are simply indicative of some serious healing in the emotional body which is all connected to the physical body and when the blockages , memories, damage begins to unravel we simply begin to experience these witchytaito phenomena..teresa of avila refers to the 6th interior castle in her book "Interior Castle"as secret consolation given to persons to encourage the weak..We are reminded to not get caught up with identifying with ourselves as being weak but to simply be vigilant with our prayer of the heart practice of daily meditation and any other tools of mindfulness ..For most of us the program is much bigger than reading about Ramana but takes some conscious effort daily.

Judi said:

Like I've said, I can't stress enough the "seriousness" > of what this "self" realization business is all about. Go as

> "deep" as you can into yourself, to understand yourself, no

> one, not even God, could ask anymore from you.

Alan: well this certainly is some sound advice as far as I am concerned.

Rob: Haha that gives us something in common. About the time

I finally got very serious about this stuff (after diddling around

with it for 25 years) I also got a pilots license .... flying and

meditation were connected ... I only recognized it afterward.

Alan: How do you mean Rob..Were or are you a T.M Sidha?

Something some folks might forget is the teaching of Patanjali about the relevance or rather reason for practicing methods that give off so called psychic phenomena or siddhis..Simply said: The purpose is to inspire and actually give experiences to cause one to develop further..Another way of saying;The experience of the presence of God or syncronicity is proof that there is more to life than this life..There were past lives and if not at miniumum d,n,a encoding of habit energy and that we don’t need to be victims of habit energy..The practice of meditation , mindfulness and good sound scriptural reading will help and certainly a real time real life community will too.

More later..Thank you for your reply to my email.

Take Care and may you and all here be well.

Alan

-

Rob Sacks

Realization

Monday, March 31, 2003 10:56 AM