Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > > > Karta: I am used to call a spade a > > spade, sorry Rob, but how would you > > define someone belive system who > > states: " that being vigilant with one > > enlightenment means waiting for the > > " Savior " > > Why does this bother you? The Roman Catholic > contemplative tradition offers an instruction which is more > or less, " Be quiet so you can hear God. " How is this any > different from the remark you quote? > > It's difficult to me to understand why the remark bothers > you because I'm seeing it out of context. Karta: hi Rob, I know it is Catholic background, and Judi did respond from that. I have no problem with it but she took [as usual] the post about Papaji's comment out of context here is the thread: > > Mark, what judi said is what she said: > > " *******do you go back into your > dream and try to save yourself or > the other dream characters? " > > SAVE YOURSELF [must be a > Catholic thing] > > M: Sure, saving yourself. That's what you're trying to do when you go back > into the dream. Did you ever wake up from a really good dream and go, " Oh, > no, " and try to get back into it? Your whole world is crashing down and you > want to keep the game going. > Karta: I don't get this Mark, I said: " -for understanding my way of vigilance substitute " vigilance " with the notion what Nisargadatta calls " awareness kept aware on AWARENESS " IN THIS CASE ONE IS *AWAKE* never went to sleep nor 'dreaming' no need to come back. R: But I would > guess Judi was thinking something along the following lines. > This is only a guess on my part: > > Papaji was very good at giving temporary glimpses to > people. It was as if, in his presence, people were > temporarily accelerated to a level of insight far beyond > what they had attained through their own efforts. As > soon as they left him, they began to slip back. To > prevent them from slipping back, Papaji told them, > " Hold onto it through vigilance. " > > I think Judi has found a permanent state of > understanding in which part of the ego machinery has > shut down for good. Karta: her ego !? LOL R: In such a state, vigilance isn't > needed anymore. Karta: she needs more improvement to correct her " sate " than anybody R: So I think perhaps (and again, I'm > only guessing), if she made a remark belittling > vigilance, it's because she thinks she's offering something > better. > > I'd also point out that in a ... what to call it? ... > fullblown state of realization as described in the > Upanishads, where the doer is completely gone, > a word like " vigilance " which implies deliberate effort > probably doesn't make any sense. How can somebody > like Ramana Maharshi be vigilant? He can't do anything. thanks for your input Rob, but I really think I should just stay in the background smiles Love & Peace, Karta > > Best regards, > > Rob > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 Ok Another opinion crawls out of the woodwork. You, I, Judi and everyone else are all connected within the Infinate/God/Is/Nirvana/whatever. You, I, Judi and everyone else are an aspect of each other. Judi, you and all the rest of creation are parts of me, and I love you all for that. When you attempt to " insult " anyone you are reacting to a spiritual rough spot within youself. If Judi can " get your goat " then she is helping you identify an issue within yourself that needs improvement. The goal is to love all, and understand all and nothing. My $.02. Gelf - " satkartar5 " <mi_nok <Realization > Friday, April 11, 2003 1:12 PM Re: Judi's Ghost?/ Rob > " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > > > > > Karta: I am used to call a spade a > > > spade, sorry Rob, but how would you > > > define someone belive system who > > > states: " that being vigilant with one > > > enlightenment means waiting for the > > > " Savior " > > > > Why does this bother you? The Roman Catholic > > contemplative tradition offers an instruction which is more > > or less, " Be quiet so you can hear God. " How is this any > > different from the remark you quote? > > > > It's difficult to me to understand why the remark bothers > > you because I'm seeing it out of context. > > Karta: > > hi Rob, > > I know it is Catholic background, and > Judi did respond from that. I have no > problem with it but she took [as > usual] the post about Papaji's comment > out of context > > here is the thread: > > > > Mark, what judi said is what she said: > > > > " *******do you go back into your > > dream and try to save yourself or > > the other dream characters? " > > > > SAVE YOURSELF [must be a > > Catholic thing] > > > > M: Sure, saving yourself. That's what you're trying to do when you go back > > into the dream. Did you ever wake up from a really good dream and go, " Oh, > > no, " and try to get back into it? Your whole world is crashing down and you > > want to keep the game going. > > > > Karta: I don't get this Mark, > > I said: > > " -for understanding my way of vigilance > substitute " vigilance " with the notion what > Nisargadatta calls " awareness kept > aware on AWARENESS " > IN THIS CASE ONE IS *AWAKE* never > went to sleep nor 'dreaming' no > need to come back. > > > > R: But I would > > guess Judi was thinking something along the following lines. > > This is only a guess on my part: > > > > Papaji was very good at giving temporary glimpses to > > people. It was as if, in his presence, people were > > temporarily accelerated to a level of insight far beyond > > what they had attained through their own efforts. As > > soon as they left him, they began to slip back. To > > prevent them from slipping back, Papaji told them, > > " Hold onto it through vigilance. " > > > > I think Judi has found a permanent state of > > understanding in which part of the ego machinery has > > shut down for good. > > > Karta: her ego !? LOL > > > R: In such a state, vigilance isn't > > needed anymore. > > > Karta: she needs more improvement to > correct her " sate " than anybody > > > R: So I think perhaps (and again, I'm > > only guessing), if she made a remark belittling > > vigilance, it's because she thinks she's offering something > > better. > > > > I'd also point out that in a ... what to call it? ... > > fullblown state of realization as described in the > > Upanishads, where the doer is completely gone, > > a word like " vigilance " which implies deliberate effort > > probably doesn't make any sense. How can somebody > > like Ramana Maharshi be vigilant? He can't do anything. > > > thanks for your input Rob, but I > really think I should just stay in > the background smiles > > Love & Peace, Karta > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Rob > > > > > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 <If Judi can " get your goat " then she is helping you > identify an issue within yourself that needs improvement.> Actually, we can never really know if that's the case. It is 50/50 that someone's goat is gotten so that they may spontaneously help the one who got it instead of helping in a contrived way. So, it's always best just to be humble and feel and say whatever comes to mind first. That way, if it's us that needed the fix, it can be done beneath the surface as it should and if it's the other guy, we don't need to notice that, either. Realization , " Carol Philo " <cphilo@k...> wrote: > Ok Another opinion crawls out of the woodwork. > You, I, Judi and everyone else are all connected within the > Infinate/God/Is/Nirvana/whatever. You, I, Judi and everyone else are an > aspect of each other. Judi, you and all the rest of creation are parts of > me, and I love you all for that. > When you attempt to " insult " anyone you are reacting to a spiritual rough > spot within youself. If Judi can " get your goat " then she is helping you > identify an issue within yourself that needs improvement. > The goal is to love all, and understand all and nothing. > My $.02. > Gelf > - > " satkartar5 " <mi_nok> > <Realization > > Friday, April 11, 2003 1:12 PM > Re: Judi's Ghost?/ Rob > > > > " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > > > > > > > Karta: I am used to call a spade a > > > > spade, sorry Rob, but how would you > > > > define someone belive system who > > > > states: " that being vigilant with one > > > > enlightenment means waiting for the > > > > " Savior " > > > > > > Why does this bother you? The Roman Catholic > > > contemplative tradition offers an instruction which is more > > > or less, " Be quiet so you can hear God. " How is this any > > > different from the remark you quote? > > > > > > It's difficult to me to understand why the remark bothers > > > you because I'm seeing it out of context. > > > > Karta: > > > > hi Rob, > > > > I know it is Catholic background, and > > Judi did respond from that. I have no > > problem with it but she took [as > > usual] the post about Papaji's comment > > out of context > > > > here is the thread: > > > > > > Mark, what judi said is what she said: > > > > > > " *******do you go back into your > > > dream and try to save yourself or > > > the other dream characters? " > > > > > > SAVE YOURSELF [must be a > > > Catholic thing] > > > > > > M: Sure, saving yourself. That's what you're trying to do when you go > back > > > into the dream. Did you ever wake up from a really good dream and go, > " Oh, > > > no, " and try to get back into it? Your whole world is crashing down and > you > > > want to keep the game going. > > > > > > > Karta: I don't get this Mark, > > > > I said: > > > > " -for understanding my way of vigilance > > substitute " vigilance " with the notion what > > Nisargadatta calls " awareness kept > > aware on AWARENESS " > > IN THIS CASE ONE IS *AWAKE* never > > went to sleep nor 'dreaming' no > > need to come back. > > > > > > > > R: But I would > > > guess Judi was thinking something along the following lines. > > > This is only a guess on my part: > > > > > > Papaji was very good at giving temporary glimpses to > > > people. It was as if, in his presence, people were > > > temporarily accelerated to a level of insight far beyond > > > what they had attained through their own efforts. As > > > soon as they left him, they began to slip back. To > > > prevent them from slipping back, Papaji told them, > > > " Hold onto it through vigilance. " > > > > > > I think Judi has found a permanent state of > > > understanding in which part of the ego machinery has > > > shut down for good. > > > > > > Karta: her ego !? LOL > > > > > > R: In such a state, vigilance isn't > > > needed anymore. > > > > > > Karta: she needs more improvement to > > correct her " sate " than anybody > > > > > > R: So I think perhaps (and again, I'm > > > only guessing), if she made a remark belittling > > > vigilance, it's because she thinks she's offering something > > > better. > > > > > > I'd also point out that in a ... what to call it? ... > > > fullblown state of realization as described in the > > > Upanishads, where the doer is completely gone, > > > a word like " vigilance " which implies deliberate effort > > > probably doesn't make any sense. How can somebody > > > like Ramana Maharshi be vigilant? He can't do anything. > > > > > > thanks for your input Rob, but I > > really think I should just stay in > > the background smiles > > > > Love & Peace, Karta > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > > > Email addresses: > > Post message: Realization > > Un: Realization- > > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > > http://www.realization.org > > ................................................ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 Hmmmm. OK I stand corrected. Huggles Gelf - " Onniko " <onniko <Realization > Friday, April 11, 2003 3:37 PM Re: Judi's Ghost?/ Rob > <If Judi can " get your goat " then she is helping you > > identify an issue within yourself that needs improvement.> > > Actually, we can never really know if that's the case. It is 50/50 > that someone's goat is gotten so that they may spontaneously help > the one who got it instead of helping in a contrived way. So, it's > always best just to be humble and feel and say whatever comes to > mind first. That way, if it's us that needed the fix, it can be done > beneath the surface as it should and if it's the other guy, we don't > need to notice that, either. > > > > Realization , " Carol Philo " <cphilo@k...> > wrote: > > Ok Another opinion crawls out of the woodwork. > > You, I, Judi and everyone else are all connected within the > > Infinate/God/Is/Nirvana/whatever. You, I, Judi and everyone else > are an > > aspect of each other. Judi, you and all the rest of creation are > parts of > > me, and I love you all for that. > > When you attempt to " insult " anyone you are reacting to a > spiritual rough > > spot within youself. If Judi can " get your goat " then she is > helping you > > identify an issue within yourself that needs improvement. > > The goal is to love all, and understand all and nothing. > > My $.02. > > Gelf > > - > > " satkartar5 " <mi_nok> > > <Realization > > > Friday, April 11, 2003 1:12 PM > > Re: Judi's Ghost?/ Rob > > > > > > > " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Karta: I am used to call a spade a > > > > > spade, sorry Rob, but how would you > > > > > define someone belive system who > > > > > states: " that being vigilant with one > > > > > enlightenment means waiting for the > > > > > " Savior " > > > > > > > > Why does this bother you? The Roman Catholic > > > > contemplative tradition offers an instruction which is more > > > > or less, " Be quiet so you can hear God. " How is this any > > > > different from the remark you quote? > > > > > > > > It's difficult to me to understand why the remark bothers > > > > you because I'm seeing it out of context. > > > > > > Karta: > > > > > > hi Rob, > > > > > > I know it is Catholic background, and > > > Judi did respond from that. I have no > > > problem with it but she took [as > > > usual] the post about Papaji's comment > > > out of context > > > > > > here is the thread: > > > > > > > > Mark, what judi said is what she said: > > > > > > > > " *******do you go back into your > > > > dream and try to save yourself or > > > > the other dream characters? " > > > > > > > > SAVE YOURSELF [must be a > > > > Catholic thing] > > > > > > > > M: Sure, saving yourself. That's what you're trying to do when > you go > > back > > > > into the dream. Did you ever wake up from a really good dream > and go, > > " Oh, > > > > no, " and try to get back into it? Your whole world is crashing > down and > > you > > > > want to keep the game going. > > > > > > > > > > Karta: I don't get this Mark, > > > > > > I said: > > > > > > " -for understanding my way of vigilance > > > substitute " vigilance " with the notion what > > > Nisargadatta calls " awareness kept > > > aware on AWARENESS " > > > IN THIS CASE ONE IS *AWAKE* never > > > went to sleep nor 'dreaming' no > > > need to come back. > > > > > > > > > > > > R: But I would > > > > guess Judi was thinking something along the following lines. > > > > This is only a guess on my part: > > > > > > > > Papaji was very good at giving temporary glimpses to > > > > people. It was as if, in his presence, people were > > > > temporarily accelerated to a level of insight far beyond > > > > what they had attained through their own efforts. As > > > > soon as they left him, they began to slip back. To > > > > prevent them from slipping back, Papaji told them, > > > > " Hold onto it through vigilance. " > > > > > > > > I think Judi has found a permanent state of > > > > understanding in which part of the ego machinery has > > > > shut down for good. > > > > > > > > > Karta: her ego !? LOL > > > > > > > > > R: In such a state, vigilance isn't > > > > needed anymore. > > > > > > > > > Karta: she needs more improvement to > > > correct her " sate " than anybody > > > > > > > > > R: So I think perhaps (and again, I'm > > > > only guessing), if she made a remark belittling > > > > vigilance, it's because she thinks she's offering something > > > > better. > > > > > > > > I'd also point out that in a ... what to call it? ... > > > > fullblown state of realization as described in the > > > > Upanishads, where the doer is completely gone, > > > > a word like " vigilance " which implies deliberate effort > > > > probably doesn't make any sense. How can somebody > > > > like Ramana Maharshi be vigilant? He can't do anything. > > > > > > > > > thanks for your input Rob, but I > > > really think I should just stay in > > > the background smiles > > > > > > Love & Peace, Karta > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > > > > > Email addresses: > > > Post message: Realization > > > Un: Realization- > > > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > > > > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > > > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > > > http://www.realization.org > > > ................................................ > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Dear Gelf, > > Hmmmm. OK I stand corrected. It's nice to encounter a mature remark in the ocean of taunts and insults that piled up in this mail group over the weekend. Best wishes, Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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