Guest guest Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 Hi Rob -- > > They want to get something, claim something, > > have a new, improved trip -- and so > > it goes on, now in the new, subtle > > spiritual version. > > I suspect that people can't help it. No one can help anything. It's quite remarkable and funny, actually. The sense of being able to help it involves a thought taken as following an event, then leading to an action. And that's not how it is really happening at all, when observed clearly. The whole conventional sense of before and after that we depend on, turns out to be merely assumption based on relating what has no true connection. Which means that a thought is an action as much as an action is a thought, and one didn't occur because of another and lead to the next. Yet, we all talk and think that way, as if. As if anyone could help it or not help it. And the humor is, we can't help forming the beliefs that we make things happen, or don't. > Until they see the ego illusion for what it really is, they > can't imagine how totally it encompasses every frickin > thing they ever imagined. Sure. And the truth of it is, realizing anything is itself a passing experiential moment in which the concept of controlling it, making it happen, or not controlling it -- has no relevance. Some call this " surrender " but it's beyond that -- everything already is in a " state " of total surrender at all times ... > People don't realize how all-encompassing their egos > are. They think their egos are a little piece of what > they do, and they think some other piece of what they > do is more spiritual than that. Right on target. They don't realize that self, doing, and experience are all the same thing. You are doing yourself, and your experience of that is you. There's no way out of the loop, because the attempt to get out of the loop is the loop. And the assumption that there could be a getting out of it, or a getting into it -- is the same assumption as the loop, as time, as a separable knower. > They think that Ganga is dealing with the " spiritual " > part. Yes. And Ganga thinks she got out. And the more she preaches about how she got out, is one with the Absolute, and selflessly wants people who can be taught -- the more clearly the loop can be seen as demonstrated. Now, I'm not claiming that I'm out of the loop and Ganga isn't. I'm just observing that clarity about this matter ends any superstitions about beings that come in and go out, get somewhere or remain as is -- > So Judi tells people, " Ganga's trip is helping you get > what your ego wants, " which is obviously true. It's so > obviously true that a couple of people here actually tried > to defend Ganga against that charge by demonstrating > that Ganga works hard to make people feel good! It's > hilarious. Yes, laughter is a good thing. > I'm glad you and Judi keep plugging away like this. Well, it beats selling cocaine. > However I don't understand what keeps you going. Mindless refusal to stop beating one's head against a brick wall, perhaps? > It really seems to be like talking to the deaf. Exactly. As long as there aren't any expectations, one won't be disappointed. > Best wishes, And to you, Rob. And you see, once in a while, something is heard. You just never know when " this " will be heard. Like Basho hearing the plop! of a frog jumping into a pond. A thief in the night. Immediate. Peace, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > Hi Dan, > > D: They want to get something, claim > something, > have a new, improved trip -- and so > it goes on, now in the new, subtle > spiritual version. > > I suspect that people can't help it. > > Until they see the ego illusion for what it really is, they > can't imagine how totally it encompasses every frickin > thing they ever imagined. > > People don't realize how all-encompassing their egos > are. They think their egos are a little piece of what > they do, and they think some other piece of what they > do is more spiritual than that. > > They think that Ganga is dealing with the " spiritual " > part. > > So Judi tells people, " Ganga's trip is helping you get > what your ego wants, " which is obviously true. It's so > obviously true that a couple of people here actually tried > to defend Ganga against that charge by demonstrating > that Ganga works hard to make people feel good! It's > hilarious. > > I'm glad you and Judi keep plugging away like this. > > However I don't understand what keeps you going. > It really seems to be like talking to the deaf. yes, Rob I wish someone would come along to lead toward Realization; who is intelligent and *really* awake and has a different attitude and uses better language than Judi Love-awareness, Karta > > Best wishes, > > Rob > > > - > " dan330033 " <dan330033> > <Realization > > Sunday, April 20, 2003 2:01 AM > Re: the ghost of One / Judi > > > > > > > > > > > <judirhodes@z...> wrote: > > > > > > What remains unanswered is just as telling as what has been > > > said. I know this is a long winding post but it contains what > > > dialog there was and the copouts that remain. There are two > > > other posts that of course Judi dropped out of the dialog being > > > that it entailed actually giving an answer rather than simply > > > pointing a finger and saying how deluded someone else is. > > > > > > This is what is the most telling. I have never seen her say what > > > she actually has gotten? > > > > > > ********* I told you already, nothing. Sheesh, don't you have > > ears? How many times do I have to tell you, I got nothing! > > > > > > If I " had " something like Ganga does (sic), I'd be out selling > > it. :-) > > > > > > Sheesh! > > > > > > Judi > > > > > > Well-said, Judi. > > > > That's it, isn't it? > > > > They want to get something, claim something, > > have a new, improved trip -- and so > > it goes on, now in the new, subtle > > spiritual version. > > > > It's like the nondual, spiritualized version of > > " I've got mine, Jack, and I'm okay. " > > > > Any suggestion that what they got, and where > > they're being taken is la-la land, and > > all the lashing out starts to happen. > > > > That's the part that's always noticeable. > > > > Where all the " we are one, all is peace, happily > > I meditate in blissful vibrations " suddenly > > turns into " here's what's wrong with you, and > > here's where you should be more humble, spiritual, > > and nonegoic, like I am, and like my wonderful > > guru is. " > > > > And somehow, that's the last thing they'll ever look > > into -- although they'll write volumes to tell > > you how wrong you are, and where you're missing > > the boat, and how blissfully one with everything > > they are. > > > > Some fun, > > Dan > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 Dear Karta, > yes, Rob I wish someone would come > along to lead toward Realization; > who is intelligent and *really* > awake and has a different attitude > and uses better language than Judi Lol... an attack on Judi disguised as a generous wish for me. Happy Easter, Karta. Best wishes, Rob - " satkartar7 " <mi_nok <Realization > Sunday, April 20, 2003 8:53 AM Re: the ghost of One / Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > Dear Karta, > > > yes, Rob I wish someone would come > > along to lead toward Realization; > > who is intelligent and *really* > > awake and has a different attitude > > and uses better language than Judi > > Lol... an attack on Judi disguised as a generous > wish for me. > > Happy Easter, Karta. > Rob, my attacks were not disguised were they? ROFL my wish is GENUINE but, it sounds like you don't approve of the dismantling of the aggressive and phony idols what is going on all over now days was Judi's *state* desirable for you? sorry, I did not mean to spoil your Holiday, but I though that, you need a better smelling lotus feet .... <grin> peace, Karta > Best wishes, > > Rob > > - > " satkartar7 " <mi_nok> > <Realization > > Sunday, April 20, 2003 8:53 AM > Re: the ghost of One / Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 Dear Dan, > > Rob: I suspect that people can't help it. > > Dan: No one can help anything. > > Dan: It's quite remarkable and funny, actually. > > Dan: The sense of being able to help it involves > a thought taken as following an event, > then leading to an action. > > Dan: And that's not how it is really happening at > all, when observed clearly. > > Dan: The whole conventional sense of before and after > that we depend on, turns out to be merely > assumption based on relating what has no > true connection. I don't follow this. Before and after is something we observe, isn't it? If you had said, " We can never prove a causal connection between two sequential events of any sort, " I would agree. Or if you had said, " There are discontinuities in our subjective awareness of intentions and actions -- in other words, we constantly do things without a sense of intending them, and we constantly make intentions that don't translate into action, " I would agree with that too. But I don't understand how " before " and " after " are conventional rather than observed. > Yet, we all talk and think that way, as if. > > As if anyone could help it or not help it. Yes, it's good that you remind me of that free will is an illusion. But actually I meant to say something narrower than that with regard to this business of recognizing the extent of the mind. I really meant to say not that people have no free will in the matter, but rather, that it's absolutely impossible for them to recognize the extent of the mind no matter what they hear or see or read or think or ponder until they have some kind of glimpse in which (at least temporarily) they dissociate from their loop-running activity. > > Rob: Until they see the ego illusion for what it really is, >> they can't imagine how totally it encompasses every > > frickin thing they ever imagined. > > Dan: Sure. Haha, Dan. It took me 30 years to reach that extent of insight, and for you, it's just something you shrug off with " sure. " I feel like I'm squinting through fog in the dark describing what I see to a man who is viewing the same scene in brilliant sunlight on a clear day. > And the truth of it is, realizing anything is itself > a passing experiential moment in which the concept > of controlling it, making it happen, or not controlling > it -- has no relevance. Some call this " surrender " > but it's beyond that -- everything already is in a > " state " of total surrender at all times ... The sense that there is a controller who makes a difference in outcomes is very tenacious for me. I'm not really convinced of this, even intellectually. > There's no way out of > the loop, because the attempt to get out of the > loop is the loop. And the assumption that there > could be a getting out of it, or a getting into > it -- is the same assumption as the loop, as time, > as a separable knower. I " m saying Yes, Yes, Yes as I read this -- meaning, " Dan is saying what I've just barely come to understand better than I could say it myself " -- until I get to " as time. " I don't get the time stuff at all. > Yes. And Ganga thinks she got out. And the more she > preaches about how she got out, is one with the > Absolute, and selflessly wants people who can be taught -- > the more clearly the loop can be seen as demonstrated. Ganga the Loop Lady. > Now, I'm not claiming that I'm out of the loop and > Ganga isn't. I'm just observing that clarity > about this matter ends any superstitions about > beings that come in and go out, get somewhere or > remain as is -- Nice point. > And you see, once in a while, something is heard. Heh. Chronologically, Rob - " dan330033 " <dan330033 <Realization > Sunday, April 20, 2003 5:44 AM Re: the ghost of One / Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 Dear Karta, > my attacks were not disguised were they? > > ROFL Haha, you're right. > my wish is GENUINE Yes, I believe you. > > but, it sounds like you don't > approve of the dismantling of the > aggressive and phony idols what is > going on all over now days I don't think anybody's idolizing anybody. Maybe you misunderstood my comment about sitting at Judi's feet. I don't idolize Judi. And my comment about looking for a thrower was a joke. It was ironic. Here's how I regard Judi: I think she has seen something that I want to see for myself. She has seen it and she talks about it. I'm curious about this thing that she has seen, so naturally I listen to her with attention. Why would I not listen with attention? You criticized her intelligence, her use of language, and her attitude, but none of these things make it impossible for me to learn something by listening to her describe what she's seen. And listening to her describe how the seeing came about causally in time. > > was Judi's *state* desirable for > you? I don't understand this question. I had a glimpse once of something that was a state (it was temporary) that is like what Judi describes. While I was " in " that state, I knew that nothing had changed. All that had happened was that I was seeing (temporarily) how things had really been all along. But I knew that if I ever " left " that state, I would regret it enormously and feel like I had lost the most valuable thing I had ever found. And that turned out to be the case. So here I am now trying to get that " state " back, even though I know that efforts to regain that " state " are precisely the thing that make me feel like I'm not in that " state. " > > sorry, I did not mean to spoil your > Holiday, but I though that, you need > a better smelling lotus feet .... My holiday is in shambles, but I'll survive. Maybe we should retire this " sitting at the Guru's feet " metaphor. It doesn't seem to translate well into Western langugages. Cheers, Rob - " satkartar7 " <mi_nok <Realization > Sunday, April 20, 2003 12:07 PM Re: the ghost of One / Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 Realization , " satkartar7 " <mi_nok> wrote: > " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > > > Dear Karta, > > > > > yes, Rob I wish someone would come > > > along to lead toward Realization; > > > who is intelligent and *really* > > > awake and has a different attitude > > > and uses better language than Judi > > > > Lol... an attack on Judi disguised as a generous > > wish for me. > > > > Happy Easter, Karta. > > > > Rob, > > my attacks were not disguised were they? > > ROFL > > my wish is GENUINE > > but, it sounds like you don't > approve of the dismantling of the > aggressive and phony idols what is > going on all over now days > > was Judi's *state* desirable for > you? > > sorry, I did not mean to spoil your > Holiday, but I though that, you need WRONG word: not need but *deserve* if desired > a better smelling lotus feet .... > > <grin> > > peace, Karta > > > Best wishes, > > > > Rob > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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