Guest guest Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 < it's all for fun This is the most damning thing you have ever written about yourself Judi .. its all for fun??? Abusing and demeaning other people's views and insulting them personally, is fun for you??? It may be fun for you, but not for the ones you lash out at .. One wonders what you do in real life for "fun" .. pull the wings off flies ?? My dear if you didn't see suffering then just what is your agenda in continuing to post to the sites ? Is it because everyone is wonderful in their own way ? ****** I have no "agenda", it's all for fun. And as far as what you say about Ganga below, like I told you before, she "says" a lot of things, but when put to the test herself, it's another story. And if it were just me, I would perhaps wonder, but it's been several of us that see the exact same thing and have called her on it and she bristles or ignores all of us. So there you have it. Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2003 Report Share Posted April 20, 2003 - deb Realization Sunday, April 20, 2003 12:52 PM Who Is Ganga Karmokar? < it's all for fun This is the most damning thing you have ever written about yourself Judi .. its all for fun??? Abusing and demeaning other people's views and insulting them personally, is fun for you??? *** Oh, quick somebody call 911! This bitch is having a good time at my expense!! :-) LOL LOL Judi It may be fun for you, but not for the ones you lash out at .. One wonders what you do in real life for "fun" .. pull the wings off flies ?? My dear if you didn't see suffering then just what is your agenda in continuing to post to the sites ? Is it because everyone is wonderful in their own way ? ****** I have no "agenda", it's all for fun. And as far as what you say about Ganga below, like I told you before, she "says" a lot of things, but when put to the test herself, it's another story. And if it were just me, I would perhaps wonder, but it's been several of us that see the exact same thing and have called her on it and she bristles or ignores all of us. So there you have it. Judi..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2003 Report Share Posted April 21, 2003 Realization , " Judi Rhodes " <judirhodes@z...> wrote: > **** T: Yes, NO " personal gain " ! > > I think it is just the " loss " of this illusion of being a " one " who > is better or worse or higher or lower - of a " someone " who THINKS > they know or understand, or doesn't know or understand, something > which a " someone " else does or does not know or understand, > ... Because " it " is not a comparative value. > > I think this is the illusion caused by self-identified separation. > > However, the immediate and spontaneous realization of this is not > necessarily negated through a " valid process " , which actually > empties all egotistical accumulations, because otherwise one just > stays caught, feeling trapped, thinking there is no way out and > nothing that can be done. > ... Not true! > > We remain separated and trapped as long as we are holding on to our > self identified specialness, whether it be the specialness caused > by the loop of our individualized self-pity and suffering, or the > loop of our unique " spiritual " attainment - both are caught and > neither are " out of that dynamic " . > > One cannot deny the facts without living in illusion. > > With love and affection, > *********************************************** > ******** " Holding " or " not holding " is the self same activity Tony. It's all but the " suffering " business of " being " somebody. **** T: Yes, Judi I know that - at least " intellectually " , I understand the idea of not being a " somebody " - of not being an ego, one which self-identifies itself as " not holding on " , I know that is exactly the same as " holding on " , because it is really holding on to not holding on - yes, I see that. .... But I am not talking about that. I am talking about the actuality of REALLY " letting go " , so that there is not even a self-conscious entity who recognizes itself to not to be holding on - a " real " letting go! > There is no escape of it, it's not a matter of finally getting untrapped. It's impossible! It's an oxymoron. **** T: It is only an " oxymoron " verbally and " intellectually " , but not " practically " . The loop of self-conscious intent is no doubt a loop - I understand that! I am not suggesting that at all. I am only saying that there are " valid ways and means " to interrupt the solidification of egotistical tendencies, and for you to to say that there aren't any I don't think is an accurate statement. **** T: Those that are indeed trapped in self-identification find them self in an endless identity loop that never ends, and to tell that there is absolutely nothing that they can do about it only leaves them in dismay, going around and around forever - they give up, and just continue on with their suffering. So to say this to them has no benefit for them, instead it only entrenches them deeper in their suffering, because they have not " realized " what you have said, and so they are now at a complete loss of how not to be solidly identified with their poor suffering egos - you have merely given them the intellectual idea that there is nothing they can do, or that needs to be done. .... And even though they may go around repeating what you said, they really don't " understand " it - they have not " realized " it, and so they remain caught in their suffering egos, and the only difference is that they are now sporting a new " idea " , one which they have not actually realized, and so it is only used boost their egos even more. **** T: " Escape " is possible only when there is no " one " - no " self " present trying to escape. It is the immediate and spontaneous stoppage of all the egotistical momentum that keeps the suffering and self-pity in place. > You don't finally get the carrot at the end. What carrot? Do you see what I mean? **** T: Yes, I see what you mean - at least " intellectually " . .... But still, that does not negate the effectiveness of dismantling the ego through various " practices " , because once the ego is negated, only the ego-less state remains, and at that point there are absolutely no carrots, there is only a living in the present - moment by moment. > You're constantly creating your own carrot my friend. **** T: Again, I think that you are mistaken by relying too much on the logic of words, and from denying any " valid tool or process " . .... Instead, I think there are " valid processes " whereby the negation of any carrot is systematically eradicated. Then there is sudden discovery of the total absence of the habitual egotistical " mind- chatter " , which normally filters direct perception, direct contact, and spontaneity. > Tony is a carroting, Tony is a carroting, Tony is a carroting, la, la, la, la, la. :-) > > A little Easter song there for you. :-) **** T: You're such a sweetheart :-) .... And a happy Easter to you as well. > Judi **** T: With love and affection, Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2003 Report Share Posted April 21, 2003 > ******** "Holding" or "not holding" is the self same activity Tony. It's all but the "suffering" business of "being" somebody.**** T: Yes, Judi I know that - at least "intellectually", I understand the idea of not being a "somebody" - of not being an ego, one which self-identifies itself as "not holding on", I know that is exactly the same as "holding on", because it is really holding on to not holding on - yes, I see that. ... But I am not talking about that. I am talking about the actuality of REALLY "letting go", so that there is not even a self-conscious entity who recognizes itself to not to be holding on - a "real" letting go! ******** Tony, you've been brainwashed, you *bought* a big one. You can't "let go". It's impossible. But what you can do is "understand", "inquire". And in that inquiry, "understanding" and "letting go" become one and the same. It's an "outgrowing", such that inquiry brings about it's own demise. One doesn't finally "let go", the whole notion of one who could "let go" is rendered obsolete. It's a completely different reality, it's the death of Tony. In other words, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference what Tony does in his "life", where he thinks he's going, and how he's gonna get there, because death renders the whole sordid, for better or worse adventure null and void. So any effort along the lines of "helping" Tony to get somewhere is worthless. Understanding is for understanding's sake, NOT for Tony's sake. Tony doesnt' finally get out of life "alive". So, the point being, that all of your seeking is an absolute and total waste of time. Misery only. > There is no escape of it, it's not a matter of finally getting untrapped. It's impossible! It's an oxymoron.**** T: It is only an "oxymoron" verbally and "intellectually", but not "practically". The loop of self-conscious intent is no doubt a loop - I understand that! I am not suggesting that at all. I am only saying that there are "valid ways and means" to interrupt the solidification of egotistical tendencies, and for you to to say that there aren't any I don't think is an accurate statement. ******** Like I said, you can "ways and means" yourself till you're blue in the face, but Tony isn't going anywhere. That much should be obvious to you by now? **** T: Those that are indeed trapped in self-identification find them self in an endless identity loop that never ends, and to tell that there is absolutely nothing that they can do about it only leaves them in dismay, going around and around forever - they give up, and just continue on with their suffering. ******** Yes. That's the whole point. You would rather I lie? There are plenty of gurus out there that do just that. They offer "escape". Visions of sugar plums. You will get none of that from me. I am all about understanding. And understanding only. Like Da said, he offers no "bones". As you would with a dog. Understanding, you see, is a completely and entirely different matter than the search. Understanding is it's own reward, which is no "reward" at all. It's of a completely different dyanamic. The gurus you see, are all about making you "feel" good. Where I, on the hand, could give a shit one way or another how you "feel". All your "feelings" are for shit. So to say this to them has no benefit for them, instead it only entrenches them deeper in their suffering, because they have not "realized" what you have said, and so they are now at a complete loss of how not to be solidly identified with their poor suffering egos - you have merely given them the intellectual idea that there is nothing they can do, or that needs to be done. ******* Yes, like I said, that about sums it up! But you see, that's exactly what you DON"T want to hear. Why do you think the ranch list is named "The End Of The Rope Ranch"? Hmmmm? :-) Poor dears, poor, poor dears. :-) .... And even though they may go around repeating what you said, they really don't "understand" it - they have not "realized" it, and so they remain caught in their suffering egos, and the only difference is that they are now sporting a new "idea", one which they have not actually realized, and so it is only used boost their egos even more. *********** Sure, it's lack of charachter. Those unwilling to face the truth of their situation. They didn't come for understanding in the first place, only a for a new "hair do". Their interest is in "looking good" **** T: "Escape" is possible only when there is no "one" - no "self" present trying to escape. It is the immediate and spontaneous stoppage of all the egotistical momentum that keeps the suffering and self-pity in place. ********** Like I said, you bought the big one. :-) You been reading too many spiritual comic books. There is no "escape". Understanding is of a completely different dyanamic that does not "prisoners" into account. No mercy, no prisoners! > You don't finally get the carrot at the end. What carrot? Do you see what I mean?**** T: Yes, I see what you mean - at least "intellectually".... But still, that does not negate the effectiveness of dismantling the ego through various "practices", because once the ego isnegated, only the ego-less state remains, and at that point there are absolutely no carrots, there is only a living in the present - moment by moment. ********* You're waiting for something to "happen" are you? Ha! You're in the market for wunnerful experience are you? Ha! Sorry, I can't help you. You'll have to go to the Yogi store for that. :-) > You're constantly creating your own carrot my friend.**** T: Again, I think that you are mistaken by relying too much on the logic of words, and from denying any "valid tool or process". ... Instead, I think there are "valid processes" whereby the negation of any carrot is systematically eradicated. Then there is sudden discovery of the total absence of the habitual egotistical "mind-chatter", which normally filters direct perception, direct contact, and spontaneity. > Tony is a carroting, Tony is a carroting, Tony is a carroting, la, la, la, la, la. :-) > > A little Easter song there for you. :-) **** T: You're such a sweetheart :-) ****** Yes, I am. :-) Judi .... And a happy Easter to you as well.> Judi**** T: With love and affection, ...........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2003 Report Share Posted April 21, 2003 Realization , " Judi Rhodes " <judirhodes@z...> wrote: > > J: ******** " Holding " or " not holding " is the self same activity > > Tony. It's all but the " suffering " business of " being " somebody. > **** T: Yes, Judi I know that - at least " intellectually " , I > understand the idea of not being a " somebody " - of not being an > ego, one which self-identifies itself as " not holding on " , I know > that is exactly the same as " holding on " , because it is really > holding on to not holding on - yes, I see that. > ... But I am not talking about that. I am talking about the > actuality of REALLY " letting go " , so that there is not > even a self-conscious entity who recognizes itself > not to be holding on - a " real " letting go! > J: ******** Tony, you've been brainwashed, > you *bought* a big one. You can't " let go " . > It's impossible. But what you can do > is " understand " , " inquire " . And in that inquiry, " understanding " > and " letting go " become one and the same. It's an " outgrowing " , > such that inquiry brings about it's own demise. One doesn't > finally " let go " , the whole notion of one who could " let go " is > rendered obsolete. It's a completely different reality, it's the > death of Tony. In other words, it doesn't make a damn bit of > difference what Tony does in his " life " , where he thinks he's > going, and how he's gonna get there, because death renders the > whole sordid, for better or worse adventure null and void. So any > effort along the lines of " helping " Tony to get somewhere is > worthless. Understanding is for understanding's sake, NOT for > Tony's sake. Tony doesnt' finally get out of life " alive " . So, the > point being, that all of your seeking is an absolute and total > waste of time. Misery only. **** T: O.K. - the " you " does not let go! .... But there is still, nevertheless, a letting go - a letting go that happens from seeing/understanding how one is always hanging on. So let me say it in another way: It is only in the seeing or understanding of the futility of hanging on itself - in one split second, that allows for the release of the all the self-centered activity of hanging on, because, in that moment, there is suddenly, no more energy available for the " game " of hanging on to continue. So game over! " Tony " only " needs " for there to be an " identity break " , so that there can be this seeing and understanding, which then spontaneously, and selflessly, allows for his own negation to take place. This is " the process " , and the only value of " ways and means " . > > J: There is no escape of it, it's not a matter of finally getting > > untrapped. It's impossible! It's an oxymoron. > **** T: It is only an " oxymoron " verbally and " intellectually " , but > not " practically " . The loop of self-conscious intent is no doubt a > loop - I understand that! I am not suggesting that at all. I am > only saying that there are " valid ways and means " to interrupt the > solidification of egotistical tendencies, and for you to to say > that there aren't any I don't think is an accurate statement. > ******** J: Like I said, you can " ways and means " yourself till > you're blue in the face, but Tony isn't going anywhere. > That much should be obvious to you by now? **** T: What is obvious is that as soon as there is a break in egocentric activity that what is needed is already there. So it is not the " tool " or the " process " itself, but only the suspension of egocentric momentum, which has value, and as soon as that happens the tool or process is dropped, right along with identity who was implementing it. So then there isn't a " Tony " to go anywhere, because he instantly vanishes, and his " blue face " of suffering and misery vanishes right along with it. > **** T: Those that are indeed trapped in self-identification find > them self in an endless identity loop that never ends, and to tell > that there is absolutely nothing that they can do about it only > leaves them in dismay, going around and around forever - they give > up, and just continue on with their suffering. > J: ******** Yes. That's the whole point. You would rather I lie? > There are plenty of gurus out there that do > just that. They offer " escape " . Visions of sugar plums. You will > get none of that from me. I am all about understanding. > And understanding only. Like Da said, he offers no " bones " . As you > would with a dog. Understanding, you see, is a completely and > entirely different matter than the search. Understanding is it's > own reward, which is no " reward " at all. > It's of a completely different dyanamic. The gurus you see, are all > about making you " feel " good. Where I, on the hand, could give > a shit one way or another how you " feel " . All your " feelings " are > for shit. **** T: No don't lie, but consider the possibility that there are definitely " things " that can be done to bring a solidified egotistical entity to see the futility of just continuing on with the momentum of its self-justified selfishness. Simply saying that there is nothing one can do and no way out, only gives it another reason not to put an end to itself. This is not about escape, because we know that in the end there is no entity left to claim that they have done anything. It's not about visions or rewards either. Its about coming to the end of all that, and a mere intellectual understanding does nothing more than feed an ego that is already too plump with its self-importance. The emotions of feeling good or feeling bad are only part of this same egotistical structure, and are some of the very things that keep it in place, but beyond the ego there is pure " feeling " , which has nothing to do with the emotional turbulence of egotistical confusion. The " shit " of egotistical emotional absorption is only the solidification of identity. What is needed is to break through all this, so that a completely different field of being can make itself known, and that is the only value of any " spiritual practice " , and to say there is nothing one can do leaves them hopeless, and gives them the justification just to continue on with their egotistical destruction. > **** T: So to say this to them has no benefit for them, instead it > only entrenches them deeper in their suffering, because they have > not " realized " what you have said, and so they are now at a > complete loss of how not to be solidly identified with their poor > suffering egos - you have merely given them the intellectual idea > that there is nothing they can do, or that needs to be done. > J: ******* Yes, like I said, that about sums it up! But you see, > that's exactly what you DON " T want to hear. > Why do you think the ranch list is named " The End Of The Rope > Ranch " ? Hmmmm? :-) > Poor dears, poor, poor dears. :-) **** T: No I've heard before - many times, but it only partially true. .... It doesn't tell the whole story, and so it is deceptive, because although there is a point where there is no entity left do anything, there are still very valid things that CAN be done, but they must be approached with the proper foundation of intellectual understanding and awareness of what exactly is involved. This is very important. To simply take a partial truth and perhaps some experience that you might have had, and then to go off half-cocked may do more harm than good. > **** T: ... And even though they may go around repeating what you > said, they really don't " understand " it - they have not " realized " > it, and so they remain caught in their suffering egos, and the > only difference is that they are now sporting a new " idea " , one > which they have not actually realized, and so it is only used > boost their egos even more. > J: *********** Sure, it's lack of charachter. Those unwilling to > face the truth of their situation. > They didn't come for understanding in the first place, only a for a > new " hair do " . Their interest is in " looking good " **** T: That may be too harsh of a judgment on you part. They may be simply be confused or traumatized in some way so that the fear is so overwhelming for them that they cannot yet see clearly or " understand " . .... But if they can be settled, through various " ways and means " , there might be the opportunity for them to get outside of them self, and at least get a glimpse of what you are trying to show them. The ones that are intent on " looking good " will still only use your message to look better anyway, and if just you let them go around kiss'n your ass, parroting things that they themselves don't really understand, you have done them a real disservice, because now they must live with a judi " hair do " , and they must also now live in fear of coming into your line of fire the moment they disagree with you. > **** T: " Escape " is possible only when there is no " one " - > no " self " present trying to escape. It is the immediate and > spontaneous stoppage of all the egotistical momentum that keeps > the suffering and self-pity in place. > J: ********** Like I said, you bought the big one. :-) You been > reading too many spiritual comic books. > There is no " escape " . Understanding is of a completely different > dyanamic that does not " prisoners " into account. > J: No mercy, no prisoners! **** T: Yes, I heard you, but just because you say it does not make it true - you are not infallible. Spiritual books only have value when you can actually realize what they are pointing to - just as you are also pointing, the same as I am. > > J: You don't finally get the carrot at the end. What carrot? Do > > you see what I mean? > **** T: Yes, I see what you mean - at least " intellectually " . > ... But still, that does not negate the effectiveness of dismantling > the ego through various " practices " , because once the ego is > negated, only the ego-less state remains, and at that point there > are absolutely no carrots, there is only a living in the present - > moment by moment. > J: ********* You're waiting for something to " happen " are you? > Ha! You're in the market for wunnerful experience are you? > Ha! Sorry, I can't help you. You'll have to go to the Yogi store > for that. :-) **** T: No, you only do the work of meditation or self-inquiry or whatever - the outcome is not up to you. Just like when you tell me what you think, you don't then follow me around to make sure I comply with your wishes. It's the same kind of approach, because you have seen the futility of just continuing on with your suffering, so you meditate to look at it, to see it directly, you inquire about it - inwardly, and you even don't worry about the outcome. " Qualified teachers " are only there as objective advisors, because they have been through what you are going through, and they are not burdened by the egotistical inclinations of self-interest. > > J: You're constantly creating your own carrot my friend. > **** T: Again, I think that you are mistaken by relying too much on > the logic of words, and from denying any " valid tool or process " . > ... Instead, I think there are " valid processes " whereby the > negation of any carrot is systematically eradicated. Then there is > sudden discovery of the total absence of the habitual > egotistical " mind-chatter " , which normally filters direct > perception, direct contact, and spontaneity. > > J: Tony is a carroting, Tony is a carroting, Tony is a carroting, > > la, la, la, la, la. :-) > > A little Easter song there for you. :-) > **** T: You're such a sweetheart :-) > ****** Yes, I am. :-) > Judi > **** T: ... And a happy Easter to you as well. > > Judi **** T: With love and affection, Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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