Guest guest Posted January 19, 2003 Report Share Posted January 19, 2003 oh ! what a lighnin' question ! .... and so i close my ears and let Open The Heart :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - " Athanor " <athanor <Nisargadatta > Sunday, January 19, 2003 12:46 PM enlightenment how does on eperson know that he/she is enlightened? mira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2003 Report Share Posted January 19, 2003 At 19.01.03-02:46 PM Athanor wrote: >how does one person know that he/she is enlightened? >mira When that person prefers to have a cup of tea ... instead of worrying whether he/she is enlightened or not! If you think you are ... you are. if you think you are not ... you still are. It is easy to prove ... Be still, stop thinking and see for yourself! Jan Sultan ******************************** 'What's wrong with right now -- -- unless you think about it?' Nisargadatta ******************************** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2003 Report Share Posted January 19, 2003 you know those less than enlightened moments? Well, when they are gone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2003 Report Share Posted January 19, 2003 - " shantiprod " <shantiprod oh ! what a lighnin' question ! .... and so i close my ears and let Open The Heart :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ and so i said, and so i did not ! doing or talking about ? practice or non-practice ? piss or shit ? :-) .. - " Athanor " <athanor <Nisargadatta > Sunday, January 19, 2003 12:46 PM enlightenment how does on eperson know that he/she is enlightened? mira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 It can only be known and verified by the Self, but certainly all doubts and fears would have dissolved. It is a clearly distinct state, different from that which came 'before'. But 'before' and 'later' are odd words due to the Naturalness. Two birds sit in a tree, one eats the fruit, one witnesses silently. One dreams, and one witnesses silently. One sleeps, and one witnesses silently. Which bird are you? Larry it is Nisargadatta , " Athanor " <athanor@c...> wrote: > how does on eperson know that he/she is enlightened? > mira > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Nisargadatta , " Athanor " <athanor@c...> wrote: > how does on eperson know that he/she is enlightened? > mira when your ex wife barges in to your satsang and calls you a fraud in front of your friends but you still see her as That. fat chance for that....hehehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 ---- " Hur Guler <hur " <hur 01/20/03 08:48 AM Nisargadatta Re: enlightenment > when we all love the hideous demon within and see it as self even when its hitler or bush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Nisargadatta , dan kahalas <dkahalas@e...> wrote: > > ---- > " Hur Guler <hur@p...> " <hur@p...> > 01/20/03 08:48 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: enlightenment > > > when we all love the hideous demon within and see it as self even when its hitler or bush Too easy, as I always thought they were the same guys, anyhows... The standard rorschach-like enlightenment test could be: In this picture (of Mr. Hitler Bush and Mr. Gandhi King), how many selves do you perceive? D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 There are alot of possible clever answers to this, but I shall speak from the traditional liturature on this topic . . . that although there is no path to Truth or Enlightenemnt, yet for one who feels the need to ask questions about Truth, who is in search of Enlightenment, the idea of being on a path seems valid and honest. And on this 'path', there will be glimpses of the goal, as one sees through the opening of trees the emerald city one is walking towards. But these glimpses are but experiences, perhaps signposts. But the actual 'enlightenment' or self-realization is sudden and abrupt - a drop-kick of Identity . . . interestingly, many struggle against it . . . Thinking one is enlightened, or thinking one is not enlightened is the same...because enlightenment is not thought- based. How can it be that it's not about me! It's about taking early retirement. Retire Retire Retire Nisargadatta , " toby20042004 " <toby.wilson@t...> wrote: > Is enlightenment sudden or gradual? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 Nisargadatta , " toby20042004 " <toby.wilson@t...> wrote: > Is enlightenment sudden or gradual? 0- Hahahahahahah Fruit falls from the tree in one instant.... Of course it took years of growth and pruning to reach that moment . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 Nisargadatta , " toby20042004 " <toby.wilson@t...> wrote: > Is enlightenment sudden or gradual? 0- Hahahahahahah Fruit falls from the tree in one instant.... Of course it took years of growth and pruning to reach that moment . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 Nice to hear from you trem (Larry is it?). Rather than speaking from traditional litrature, could you speak to me on this occasion only from that which you know within... > > trem23 [sMTP:inmadison] > Thursday, May 01, 2003 4:17 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: Enlightenment > > There are alot of possible clever answers to this, but I shall speak > from the traditional liturature on this topic . . . > > that although there is no path to Truth or Enlightenemnt, yet for > one who feels the need to ask questions about Truth, who is in > search of Enlightenment, the idea of being on a path seems valid and > honest. > > And on this 'path', there will be glimpses of the goal, as one sees > through the opening of trees the emerald city one is walking > towards. But these glimpses are but experiences, perhaps signposts. > > But the actual 'enlightenment' or self-realization is sudden and > abrupt - a drop-kick of Identity . . . interestingly, many struggle > against it . . . Thinking one is enlightened, or thinking one is not > enlightened is the same...because enlightenment is not thought- > based. How can it be that it's not about me! It's about taking > early retirement. Retire Retire Retire > > > > Nisargadatta , " toby20042004 " > <toby.wilson@t...> wrote: > > Is enlightenment sudden or gradual? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 Spiritual text-bookism. > > no0one2b [sMTP:no0one2b] > Thursday, May 01, 2003 6:32 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: Enlightenment > > Nisargadatta , " toby20042004 " > <toby.wilson@t...> wrote: > > > > Is enlightenment sudden or gradual? > > 0- Hahahahahahah Fruit falls from the tree in one instant.... > Of course it took years of growth and pruning to reach that > moment . > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 Is enlightenment sudden or gradual? Toby 0- Hahahahahahah Fruit falls from the tree in one instant.... Of course ~~~~~it took years~~~~ of growth and pruning to reach that moment . no0one2b -------------------------------- ~~~~yeh, if you are dead from the neck up~~~~ .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2003 Report Share Posted October 5, 2003 What Is Enlightenment? Immanuel Kant --- Enlightenment is man's release from his self-incurred tutelage. Tutelage is man's inability to make use of his understanding without direction from another. Self-incurred is this tutelage when its cause lies not in lack of reason but in lack of resolution and courage to use it without direction from another. Sapere aude! 1 " Have courage to use your own reason! " --that is the motto of enlightenment. Laziness and cowardice are the reasons why so great a portion of mankind, after nature has long since discharged them from external direction (naturaliter maiorennes), nevertheless remains under lifelong tutelage, and why it is so easy for others to set themselves up as their guardians. It is so easy not to be of age. If I have a book which understands for me, a pastor who has a conscience for me, a physician who decides my diet, and so forth, I need not trouble myself. I need not think, if I can only pay--others will readily undertake the irksome work for me. That the step to competence is held to be very dangerous by the far greater portion of mankind (and by the entire fair sex)--quite apart from its being arduous--is seen to by those guardians who have so kindly assumed superintendence over them. After the guardians have first made their domestic cattle dumb and have made sure that these placid creatures will not dare take a single step without the harness of the cart to which they are tethered, the guardians then show them the danger which threatens if they try to go alone. Actually, however, this danger is not so great, for by falling a few times they would finally learn to walk alone. But an example of this failure makes them timid and ordinarily frightens them away from all further trials. For any single individual to work himself out of the life under tutelage which has become almost his nature is very difficult. He has come to be fond of this state, and he is for the present really incapable of making use of his reason, or no one has ever let him try it out. Statutes and formulas, those mechanical tools of the rational employment or rather misemployment of his natural gifts, are the fetters of an everlasting tutelage. Whoever throws them off makes only an uncertain leap over the narrowest ditch because he is not accustomed to that kind of free motion. Therefore, there are few who have succeeded by their own exercise of mind both in freeing themselves from incompetence and in achieving a steady pace. But that the public should enlighten itself is more possible, indeed, if only freedom is granted, enlightenment is almost sure to follow. For there will always be some independent thinkers, even among the established guardians of the great masses, who, after throwing off the yoke of tutelage from their own shoulders, will disseminate the spirit of the rational appreciation of both their own worth and every man's vocation for thinking for himself. But be it noted that the public, which has first been brought under this yoke by their guardians, forces the guardians themselves to remain bound when it is incited to do so by some of the guardians who are themselves capable of some enlightenment--so harmful is it to implant prejudices, for they later take vengeance on their cultivators or on their descendants. Thus the public can only slowly attain enlightenment. Perhaps a fall of personal despotism or of avaricious or tyrannical oppression may be accomplished by revolution, but never a true reform in ways of thinking. Rather, new prejudices will serve as well as old ones to harness the great unthinking masses. For this enlightenment, however, nothing is required but freedom, and indeed the most harmless among all the things to which this term can properly be applied. It is the freedom to make public use of one's reason at every point.2 But I hear on all sides, " Do not argue! " The officer says: " Do not argue but drill! " The tax collector: " Do not argue but pay! " The cleric: " Do not argue but believe! " Only one prince in the world says, " Argue as much as you will, and about what you will, but obey! " Everywhere there is restriction on freedom. Which restriction is an obstacle to enlightenment, and which is not an obstacle but a promoter of it? I answer: The public use of one's reason must always be free, and it alone can bring about enlightenment among men. The private use of reason, on the other hand, may often be very narrowly restricted without particularly hindering the progress on enlightenment. By the public use of one's reason I understand the use which a person makes of it as a scholar before the reading public. Private use I call that which one may make of it in a particular civil post or office which is entrusted to him. Many affairs which are conducted in the interest of the community require a certain mechanism through which some members of the community must passively conduct themselves with an artificial unanimity, so that the government may direct them to public ends, or at least prevent them from destroying those ends. Here argument is certainly not allowed-one must obey. But so far as a part of the mechanism regards himself at the same time as a member of the whole community or of a society of world citizens, and thus in the role of a scholar who addresses the public (in the proper sense of the word) through his writings, he certainly can argue without hurting the affairs for which he is in part responsible as a passive member. Thus it would be ruinous for an officer in service to debate about the suitability or utility of a command given to him by his superior; he must obey. But the right to make remarks on errors in the military service and to lay them before the public for judgment cannot equitably be refused him as a scholar. The citizen cannot refuse to pay the taxes imposed on him; indeed, an impudent complaint at those levied on him can be punished as a scandal (as it could occasion general refractoriness). But the same person nevertheless does not act contrary to his duty as a citizen when, as a scholar, he publicly expresses his thoughts on the inappropriateness or even the injustice of those levies. Similarly a clergyman is obligated to make his sermon to his pupils in catechism and his congregation conform to the symbol of the church which he serves, for he has been accepted on this condition. But as a scholar he has complete freedom, even the calling, to communicate to the public all his carefully tested and well meaning thoughts on that which is erroneous in the symbol and to make suggestions for the better organization of the religious body and church. In doing this there is nothing that could be laid as a burden on his conscience. For what he teaches a consequence of his office as a representative of the church, this he considers something about which he has no freedom to teach according to his own lights; it is something which he is appointed to propound at the dictation of and in the name of another. He will say, " Our church teaches this or that; those are the proofs which it adduces. " He thus extracts all practical uses for his congregation from statutes to which he himself would not with full conviction but to the enunciation of which he can very well pledge himself because it is not impossible that truth lies hidden in them, and, in any case, there is at least nothing in them contradictory to inner religion. For if he believed he had found such in them, he could not conscientiously discharge the duties of his office; he would have to give it up. The use, therefore, which an appointed teacher makes of his reason before his congregation is merely private, because this congregation is only a domestic one (even if it be a large gathering); with respect to it, as a priest, he is not free, nor can he be free, because he carries out the orders of another. But as a scholar, whose writings speak to his public, the world, the clergyman in the public use of his reason enjoys an unlimited freedom to use his own reason and to speak in his own person. That the guardians of the people (in spiritual things) should themselves be incompetent is an absurdity which amounts to the eternalization of absurdities. But would not a society of clergymen, perhaps a church conference or a venerable classis ( as they call themselves among the Dutch), be justified in obligating itself by oath to a certain unchangeable symbol in order to enjoy an unceasing guardianship over each of its members and thereby over the people as a whole, and even to make it eternal? I answer that this is altogether impossible. Such a contract, made to shut off all further enlightenment from the human race, is absolutely null and void even if confirmed by the supreme power, by parliaments, and by the most ceremonious of peace treaties. An age cannot bind itself and ordain to put the succeeding one into such a condition that it cannot extend its (at best very occasional) knowledge, purify itself of errors, and progress in general enlightenment. That would be a crime against human nature, the proper destination of which lies precisely in this progress; and the descendants would be fully justified in rejecting those decrees as having been made in an unwarranted and malicious manner. The touchstone of everything that can be concluded as a law for a people lies in the question whether the people could have imposed such a law on itself. Now such a religious compact might be possible for a short and definitely limited time, as it were, in expectation of a better. One might let every citizen, and especially the clergyman, in the role of scholar, make his comments freely and publicly, i.e., through writing, on the erroneous aspects of the present institution. The newly introduced order might last until insight into the nature of these things had become so general and widely approved that through uniting their voices (even if not unanimously) they could bring a proposal to the throne to take those congregations under protection which had united into a changed religious organization according to their better ideas, without, however, hindering others who wish to remain in the order. But to unite in a permanent religious institution which is not to be subject to doubt before the public even in the lifetime of one man, and thereby to make a period of time fruitless in the progress of mankind toward improvement, thus working to the disadvantage of posterity--that is absolutely forbidden. For himself (and only for a short time) a man may postpone enlightenment in what he ought to know, but to renounce it for himself and even more to renounce it for posterity is to injure and trample on the rights of mankind. And what a people may not decree for itself can even less be decreed for them by a monarch, for his lawgiving authority rests on his uniting the general public will in his own. If he only sees to it that all true or alleged improvement stands together with civil order, he can leave it to his subjects to do what they find necessary for their spiritual welfare. This is not his concern, though it is incumbent on him to prevent one of them from violently hindering another in determining and promoting this welfare to the best of his ability. To meddle in these matters lowers his own majesty, since by the writings in which his subjects seek to present their views he may evaluate his own governance. He can do this when, with deepest understanding, he lays upon himself the reproach, Caesar non est supra grammaticos. Far more does he injure his own majesty when he degrades his supreme power by supporting the ecclesiastical despotism of some tyrants in his state over his other subjects. If we are asked, " Do we now live in an enlightened age? " the answer is, " No, " but we do live in an age of enlightenment.3 As things now stand, much is lacking which prevents men from being, or easily becoming, capable of correctly using their own reason in religious matters with assurance and free from outside direction. But, on the other hand, we have clear indications that the field has now been opened wherein men may freely deal with these things and that the obstacles to general enlightenment or the release from self-imposed tutelage are gradually being reduced. In this respect, this is the age of enlightenment, or the century of Frederick. A prince who does not find it unworthy of himself to say that he holds it to be his duty to prescribe nothing to men in religious matters but to give them complete freedom while renouncing the haughty name of tolerance, is himself enlightened and deserves to be esteemed by the grateful world and posterity as the first, at least from the side of government, who divested the human race of its tutelage and left each man free to make use of his reason in matters of conscience. Under him venerable ecclesiastics are allowed, in the role of scholars, and without infringing on their official duties, freely to submit for public testing their judgments and views which here and there diverge from the established symbol. And an even greater freedom is enjoyed by those who are restricted by no official duties. This spirit of freedom spreads beyond this land, even to those in which it must struggle with external obstacles erected by a government which misunderstands its own interest. For an example gives evidence to such a government that in freedom there is not the least cause for concern about public peace and the stability of the community. Men work themselves gradually out of barbarity if only intentional artifices are not made to hold them in it. I have placed the main point of enlightenment--the escape of men from their self-incurred tutelage--chiefly in matters of religion because our rulers have no interest in playing the guardian with respect to the arts and sciences and also because religious incompetence is not only the most harmful but also the most degrading of all. But the manner of thinking of the head of a state who favors religious enlightenment goes further, and he sees that there is no danger to his lawgiving in allowing his subjects to make public use of their reason and to publish their thoughts on a better formulation of his legislation and even their open-minded criticisms of the laws already made. Of this we have a shining example wherein no monarch is superior to him whom we honor. But only one who is himself enlightened, is not afraid of shadows, and has a numerous and well-disciplined army to assure public peace, can say: " Argue as much as you will, and about what you will, only obey! " A republic could not dare say such a thing. Here is shown a strange and unexpected trend in human affairs in which almost everything, looked at in the large, is paradoxical. A greater degree of civil freedom appears advantageous to the freedom of mind of the people, and yet it places inescapable limitations upon it; a lower degree of civil freedom, on the contrary, provides the mind with room for each man to extend himself to his full capacity. As nature has uncovered from under this hard shell the seed for which she most tenderly cares--the propensity and vocation to free thinking-- this gradually works back upon the character of the people, who thereby gradually become capable of managing freedom; finally, it affects the principles of government, which finds it to its advantage to treat men, who are now more than machines, in accordance with their dignity.4 I. Kant Konigsberg, Prussia September 30, 1784 1[ " Dare to know! " (Horace Ars poetica). This was the motto adopted in 1736 by the Society of the F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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