Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 > Stop and sit in the stillness it will come ...... Oh come on, stop being silly. Tell me what you meant. I'd like to respond. It would be interesting. By the way, I love the way the trademark ellipses (....) came back as soon as Onniko outed you. I have to admit the missing ellipses fooled me. That's how shallow I am -- I can be fooled by punctuation marks. Best regards, Rob - " alak_azam " <alak_azam <Realization > Wednesday, November 05, 2003 5:16 PM Re: Hello I am new here > Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> > wrote: > > Hi Ganga, > > > > > Using your logic why do you have a site at all ? > > > > I'm sorry I don't understand this. I really don't. What's > > your line of thinking here? > > > > Regards, > > > > Rob > > > Stop and sit in the stillness it will come ...... > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Realization , " ESSENTIAL I " <unbound@h...> wrote: > onniko: " Without time, there can be no first one or last one " . > > Alton: Happening in parallel innumerable universes that are so close as to almost touch us, there may be " time " equivalents and no " time " equivalents that contain both duality and non-duality simultaneously. To the worst of my knowledge. LOL. > ----- That sounds logical to me. Now, I am going to go look and see if I have any brainburger helper left for dinner, tonight ;oD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > > Stop and sit in the stillness it will come ...... > > Oh come on, stop being silly. Tell me what you meant. > I'd like to respond. It would be interesting. > > By the way, I love the way the trademark ellipses > (....) came back as soon as Onniko outed you. > > I have to admit the missing ellipses fooled me. That's > how shallow I am -- I can be fooled by punctuation > marks. > > Best regards, > > Rob outed me from what ? do you know why it was there ? i am sure you have lots of assumptions and more than likely all wrong .... there is one who knows why ..... the rest only assume they know and then act from imagination........ for the rest it stands ---- quit thinking about it ....... let the mind settle and then see what remains ........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Realization , " ESSENTIAL I " <unbound@h...> wrote: > Atlon: If someone claims that Realization, I accept what they > > claim. What does it matter to me. > > Rob: Yes but Alton, it doesn't matter to YOU because you're not the > type of person who follows gurus. You're ornery and independent. > There are other people who do follow gurus and get sucked into cults > etc., and for them, it can matter alot. > > Dear Rob: > > My wife had a friend that died in Jonesville: > That was part of his purification leading toward the LIGHT. > > So many that I have known were violated by so called false gurus. > In fact Roy Horn who is a Ramana devotee was really violated by a guru. He > brought Ramana and Nisargadatta to us when we invited him for dinner. > Upon reading the first 30 pages of 'I Am That " I got quite a rush. Then I was hooked forever > on this path. > > Whether you were violated by a guru or died in some sort of holocaust, those horrendous events > were God's will and actually accelerate our return to the SOURCE. > > Do you think anything can go wrong with someone's sadhana? Does God makes mistakes. I don't. But we often talk about God's will in the context of these extremes. The one who serves to warn of the impending deaths at Jonesville is also doing God's will. Could it be that coming into contact with these warnings and being allowed to choose is as the room allowed for the goat on his rope? The goat has his range and within that range, it does matter to him and it is God's will that it does. > Love and Namaste, > Alton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 > Wondering out loud. Is calling someone "silly" a > personal attack? Or did you mean the arguments were silly? Haha Alton, aren't you supposed to be packing or polishing your passport or something? - ESSENTIAL I Realization Wednesday, November 05, 2003 3:43 PM Re: Re: Hello I am new here Wondering out loud. Is calling someone "silly" a personal attack? Or did you mean the arguments were silly? > Stop and sit in the stillness it will come ...... Oh come on, stop being silly. Tell me what you meant.I'd like to respond. It would be interesting.By the way, I love the way the trademark ellipses(....) came back as soon as Onniko outed you.I have to admit the missing ellipses fooled me. That'show shallow I am -- I can be fooled by punctuationmarks. :)Best regards,Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Hi Ganga, > outed me from what ? From your pseudonym. In other words, she made us realize that Alak was Ganga. > do you know why it was there ? Why what was there? Are you asking if I know why you hid your identity? I have no idea. I don't want to know, either. It makes no difference to me. > > i am sure you have lots of assumptions and more than likely all > wrong .... I'm really just trying to have a conversation with you. You make it very difficult. I've tried to talk to you since you came into this forum. I answered all your questions as politely as I could. Best regards, Rob - " alak_azam " <alak_azam <Realization > Wednesday, November 05, 2003 5:41 PM Re: Hello I am new here > Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> > wrote: > > > Stop and sit in the stillness it will come ...... > > > > Oh come on, stop being silly. Tell me what you meant. > > I'd like to respond. It would be interesting. > > > > By the way, I love the way the trademark ellipses > > (....) came back as soon as Onniko outed you. > > > > I have to admit the missing ellipses fooled me. That's > > how shallow I am -- I can be fooled by punctuation > > marks. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Rob > > outed me from what ? do you know why it was there ? > i am sure you have lots of assumptions and more than likely all > wrong .... > > there is one who knows why ..... the rest only assume they > know and then act from imagination........ > > for the rest it stands ---- quit thinking about it ....... let the mind > settle and then see what remains ........ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Realization , " ESSENTIAL I " <unbound@h...> wrote: > > > > > Ramana said he had thoughts when reading or > > being asked a question. So even his samadhi was > > intermittent. OK Rob tell me I am wrong. > > I think I'm going to start charging for these homework assignments. > > We all have to make a living some way, because in our culture begging bowls > and frowned upon. ROF > > Sri Ramana said he was in a state of sahaja samadhi which is > continuous. He described how thoughts (and everything else) appear > in this state as follows: > > " In sahaja, however, the mind has resolved itself into the Self and > has been lost.... The activities of such a being are like the feeding > of a somnolent boy, perceptible to an onlooker (but not to the > subject). The driver sleeping on his moving cart is not aware of > the motion of the cart, because his mind is sunk in darkness. > Similarly the sahaja jnani remains unaware of his bodily activities > because his mind is dead -- having been resolved in the ecstasy of > Chid Ananada (Self). " > > -- From Talks, Article 187. > > This might be correct and it might not be correct. If Ramana submitted to testing with the latest MRI technology we might be able to conclusively prove the above statements > but since he did not only the " > " true believer will accept it in toto. > > Hey if it is my destiny to be Realized and I believe it is, then I will submit to all tests so that we can have definitive scientific data on spiritual attainments. > > Dear Alak, will you be tested? Not to prove that you are Realized but to make spirituality more scientific. > > Love, > Alton who is making his last posting flourish before leaving tomorrow. I wont annoy this group for at least three weeks. Ah, have a great time, Alton. The plane won't crash and the temple won't blow up and the food won't be poison, and well, if I'm wrong, I'll really miss you =oO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Realization , " alak_azam " <alak_azam> wrote: > Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> > wrote: > > > Stop and sit in the stillness it will come ...... > > > > Oh come on, stop being silly. Tell me what you meant. > > I'd like to respond. It would be interesting. > > > > By the way, I love the way the trademark ellipses > > (....) came back as soon as Onniko outed you. > > > > I have to admit the missing ellipses fooled me. That's > > how shallow I am -- I can be fooled by punctuation > > marks. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Rob > > outed me from what ? do you know why it was there ? > i am sure you have lots of assumptions and more than likely all > wrong .... > > there is one who knows why ..... the rest only assume they > know and then act from imagination........ > > for the rest it stands ---- quit thinking about it ....... let the mind > settle and then see what remains ........ I really don't think anyone except yourself IS thinking about the whys of it, Ganga. If you showed up at a friend's house in disguise and someone picked you out by saying something that they knew you'd respond to in a familiar way, and then they laughed, what would be the mood in the room? Probably, good humor, I would imagine. I don't understand why you think everyone is mad at you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Realization , " ESSENTIAL I " <unbound@h...> wrote: > > > > > Ramana said he had thoughts when reading or > > being asked a question. So even his samadhi was > > intermittent. OK Rob tell me I am wrong. > > I think I'm going to start charging for these homework assignments. > > We all have to make a living some way, because in our culture begging bowls > and frowned upon. ROF > > Sri Ramana said he was in a state of sahaja samadhi which is > continuous. He described how thoughts (and everything else) appear > in this state as follows: > > " In sahaja, however, the mind has resolved itself into the Self and > has been lost.... The activities of such a being are like the feeding > of a somnolent boy, perceptible to an onlooker (but not to the > subject). The driver sleeping on his moving cart is not aware of > the motion of the cart, because his mind is sunk in darkness. > Similarly the sahaja jnani remains unaware of his bodily activities > because his mind is dead -- having been resolved in the ecstasy of > Chid Ananada (Self). " > > -- From Talks, Article 187. > > This might be correct and it might not be correct. If Ramana submitted to testing with the latest MRI technology we might be able to conclusively prove the above statements > but since he did not only the " > " true believer will accept it in toto. > > Hey if it is my destiny to be Realized and I believe it is, then I will submit to all tests so that we can have definitive scientific data on spiritual attainments. > > Dear Alak, will you be tested? Not to prove that you are Realized but to make spirituality more scientific. > > Love, > Alton who is making his last posting flourish before leaving tomorrow. I wont annoy this group for at least three weeks. devi: alton i will miss you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 > outed me from what ? do you know why it was there ? > i am sure you have lots of assumptions and more than likely all > wrong .... > > there is one who knows why ..... the rest only assume they > know and then act from imagination........ > > for the rest it stands ---- quit thinking about it ....... let the mind > settle and then see what remains ........ devi: good advise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 > Wondering out loud. Is calling someone "silly" a > personal attack? Or did you mean the arguments were silly? Haha Alton, aren't you supposed to be packing or polishing your passport or something? - ESSENTIAL I Realization Wednesday, November 05, 2003 3:43 PM Re: Re: Hello I am new here Wondering out loud. Is calling someone "silly" a personal attack? Or did you mean the arguments were silly? > Stop and sit in the stillness it will come ...... Oh come on, stop being silly. Tell me what you meant.I'd like to respond. It would be interesting.By the way, I love the way the trademark ellipses(....) came back as soon as Onniko outed you.I have to admit the missing ellipses fooled me. That'show shallow I am -- I can be fooled by punctuationmarks. :)Best regards,Rob- "alak_azam" <alak_azam<Realization >Wednesday, November 05, 2003 5:16 PM Re: Hello I am new here> Realization , "Rob Sacks" <editor@r...> > wrote:> > Hi Ganga,> > > > > Using your logic why do you have a site at all ? > > > > I'm sorry I don't understand this. I really don't. What's> > your line of thinking here?> > > > Regards,> > > > Rob> > > Stop and sit in the stillness it will come ...... > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Here's another quote about Ramana Maharshi's sahaja samadhi. This one addresses Alton's question exactly: "The sahaja state is a permanent one. It is not a state that one enters or leaves. A visit to the ashram by Satchidananda Yogeeswara of Cudappa, a man who went 'into' and 'out of' samadhi, gave us an opportunity to explain the real nature of sahaja samadhi. The swami, a famous hatha yogi, was touring the whole of India, staying in all the important ashrams for three days and giving discourses. During his tour he also came to Tiruvannamalai. He visited the ashram, conversed for some time with Sri Bhagavan, and then returned to where he was staying in the town. Since those who had accompanied him invited us to come and listen to his discourse, i and a devotee called Palanimalai, who was a knowledgeable man, went to attend the meeting. "When we arrived we were told by one of his followers, 'Swami is in samadhi. He will come out of it at a specific time and only after that will the discourse start.' "Then he asked us, 'At what times is your Bhagavan in samadhi?' "Hearing this, Palanimalai Swami could not suppress a burst of laughter, though he tried unsuccessfully to change it into an 'Is that so?' The disciple of the yogi asked us the reason for this laughter. "I replied, 'There is no schedule for jnanis. They do not go into samadhi or come out of it at specific times. Because he knows this he had to laugh when he heard you speak about entering and leaving samadhi.' "Then, to make my meaning more clear, I added, 'Sri Bhagavan is always in sahaja nishta [the natural state].' "After staying there for some time and listening to his discourse, we returned to the ashram. As usual, Sri Bhagavan enquired about what had taken place at the meeting. "When I told him what had happened, he said with a smile, 'People are under the impression that the state of samadhi is something limited by times and places. They think that sitting still in one place for hours together, without any movement and with the eyes closed, is samadhi. What to do?'" -- From the chapter on Kunju Swami in Power of the Presence, Part 2, by David Godman, pp. 83-84. - ESSENTIAL I Realization Wednesday, November 05, 2003 3:41 PM Re: Re: Hello I am new here > Ramana said he had thoughts when reading or > being asked a question. So even his samadhi was > intermittent. OK Rob tell me I am wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Hi Alton, I can't answer the question with respect to Ganga without violating the forum rules. As for Judi, I don't worship her. For a while I was very excited about her because I thought she could help me. I got a kick out of emphasizing my appreciation of her here because it shocked people. I think Judi is really what she claims to be. She claims to have obtained permanent freedom from some of the compulsive stuff that goes on in most people's heads. I think she's honest in her description of this state. I'm not sure what to call that state except some variety of enlightenment. We don't have an agreed vocabulary for these states, so people can argue about the right name for it. But that's a disagreement about definitions of words, not about Judi's state. Judi herself is authentic. With Judi, what you see is what you get is what she claims, in my humble opinion. I don't like the way Judi attacks people. People sometimes say it's impossible for an enlightened person (whatever that means exactly) to behave that way. Well, Judi is what she is and she does behave that way. If I have to choose between recognizing what's in front of my face and my preconceptions, I'll go with reality. Love, Rob - ESSENTIAL I Realization Wednesday, November 05, 2003 4:36 PM Re: Re: Hello I am new here Dear Rob: If you don't mind answering sort of a difficult question. If you do please skip this one. I have noticed that you seem to have quite a different attitude toward possibly two Enlightened and or Realized beings. You seem to worship Judy who gets off on personal attacks and are cold to Alak. Anyway that is what I noticed from my own conditioned psyche. How come? Love and respects, Alton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > Hi Alton, > > I can't answer the question with respect to Ganga without > violating the forum rules. so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting .... thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ? so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ? what meter do you use to decide realization ? i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees turn around ........ just what part of attacking others do you see as a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ? now that is amazing ....... how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of Being that Self moves within ...... Excerpt : A caterpillar crawls on a blade of grass and when it has come to the end , it seeks another support. While doing so it holds on with its hind-legs to the blade of grass, lifts the body and sways to and fro before it can hold another. Similiairly it is with the Self. It stays in the Heart and holds other centres also according to circumstances. But its activities always centre round the Heart ........ pettiness , bitchiness, and Heart are not synonymous..... you might want to look at your Realization meter and contemplate making adjustments to it's voracity ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Dear Rob: I like you a lot and don't want to lose you as a friend, but my own configured mind wants fairness. You wrote in snip about Alak aka whatever: "The more I read, the less impressed I became, and I decided that I had made a mistake by asking if I could republish some of it." I think it would be fair to Alak and the group if you tell the group what made you "less impressed about those aforesaid writing. I know it might be time consuming and much work, but Alak needs to be able to use this forum to have a dialogue about his/her writings. Otherwise he/she has been dissed without being able to neutralize and or explain his/her offerings. I want to know too. A huge can of worms has been opened and needs to be dealt with. Are you sure that no other persons influenced your decision not to use his/her work? By the way we are already packed. Only a few more cycles like me making lots of sushi's for the 15 hour journey. Will miss you and the group until I can get online there. Love, Alton Hi Ganga,> so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting .... > thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ? I was just trying to answer Alton's question honestlyand stick to the rules at the same time.You hold yourself out as a guru. That makes it perfectly appropriate for people to question your qualifications. You can't say to the world, "I'm a realized guru," andthen cry "unfair" when people question whether you really are what you claim to be.> so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ? It's not enlightened behavior. I'm not enlightened. I've never claimed to be enlightened. I'm not even a very good meditator.Not everybody pretends to be enlightened.> i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my > writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you > met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees> turn around ........ Oh is that what you're mad about? After all these years?Is that why you suddenly showed up here with a chip onyour shoulder?Judi had nothing to do with my decision not to go ahead with it. I didn't even know her then. What happened was, after you and I agreed in principle, I began to read your existing published writing on your websites in order to find material that I could extract and combine into a single long article. The more I read, the less impressed I became, and I decided that I had made a mistake by asking if I could republish some of it.I apologize to you for this. It was inconsiderate. I shouldhave read your material more carefully before I contacted you. Or else I should have sent an email telling you I hadchanged my mind. Either way, I acted badly.> just what part of attacking others do you see as > a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ? No part of it. That's not what I wrote.> how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that > Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of > Being that Self moves within ...... It doesn't fit. I don't think Judi is in Sri Ramana's state.I never said that she is. Best wishes,Rob- "alak_azam" <alak_azam<Realization >Wednesday, November 05, 2003 7:37 PM Re: Hello I am new here> Realization , "Rob Sacks" <editor@r...> > wrote:> > Hi Alton,> > > > I can't answer the question with respect to Ganga without > > violating the forum rules.> > > so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting .... > thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ? > > so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ? > > what meter do you use to decide realization ? > > i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my > writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you > met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees> turn around ........ > > just what part of attacking others do you see as > a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ? > > now that is amazing ....... > > how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that > Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of > Being that Self moves within ...... > > > Excerpt : A caterpillar crawls on a blade of grass and when it > has come to the end , it seeks another support. While doing so it > holds on with its hind-legs to the blade of grass, lifts the body > and sways to and fro before it can hold another. Similiairly it is > with the Self. It stays in the Heart and holds other centres also > according to circumstances. But its activities always centre > round the Heart ........> > pettiness , bitchiness, and Heart are not synonymous..... > you might want to look at your Realization meter and > contemplate making adjustments to it's voracity ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Hi Alton, I can't answer the question with respect to Ganga without violating the forum rules. If you stuck to issues would that violate the forum rules? Love, Alton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Dear Rob: From where I am at I cant say whether this is right on or just hearsay. If we don't get to that Realization, then all we read may or may not be true, as it is all hearsay. So seekers have to BELIEVE so that they can progress on any particular path. Right now I still believe that Realization is on a sliding scale and so is Enlightenment. If that were not true than Ramana would not have said that there may be differences in what is experienced. Did not he say that and that is why he did not give more information about what happens? The sliding scale may take the form of more megawatts and the capacity for more bliss. Ramana experienced so much bliss that he did not give a hoot about ants or rats gnawing at him. If you disagree I will have to reread the parts where that was mentioned. If you had other plans for today and tomorrow I apologize for taking up you time. Love, Alton Here's another quote about Ramana Maharshi's sahaja samadhi. This one addresses Alton's question exactly: "The sahaja state is a permanent one. It is not a state that one enters or leaves. A visit to the ashram by Satchidananda Yogeeswara of Cudappa, a man who went 'into' and 'out of' samadhi, gave us an opportunity to explain the real nature of sahaja samadhi. The swami, a famous hatha yogi, was touring the whole of India, staying in all the important ashrams for three days and giving discourses. During his tour he also came to Tiruvannamalai. He visited the ashram, conversed for some time with Sri Bhagavan, and then returned to where he was staying in the town. Since those who had accompanied him invited us to come and listen to his discourse, i and a devotee called Palanimalai, who was a knowledgeable man, went to attend the meeting. "When we arrived we were told by one of his followers, 'Swami is in samadhi. He will come out of it at a specific time and only after that will the discourse start.' "Then he asked us, 'At what times is your Bhagavan in samadhi?' "Hearing this, Palanimalai Swami could not suppress a burst of laughter, though he tried unsuccessfully to change it into an 'Is that so?' The disciple of the yogi asked us the reason for this laughter. "I replied, 'There is no schedule for jnanis. They do not go into samadhi or come out of it at specific times. Because he knows this he had to laugh when he heard you speak about entering and leaving samadhi.' "Then, to make my meaning more clear, I added, 'Sri Bhagavan is always in sahaja nishta [the natural state].' "After staying there for some time and listening to his discourse, we returned to the ashram. As usual, Sri Bhagavan enquired about what had taken place at the meeting. "When I told him what had happened, he said with a smile, 'People are under the impression that the state of samadhi is something limited by times and places. They think that sitting still in one place for hours together, without any movement and with the eyes closed, is samadhi. What to do?'" -- From the chapter on Kunju Swami in Power of the Presence, Part 2, by David Godman, pp. 83-84. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Hi Ganga, > so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting .... > thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ? I was just trying to answer Alton's question honestly and stick to the rules at the same time. You hold yourself out as a guru. That makes it perfectly appropriate for people to question your qualifications. You can't say to the world, " I'm a realized guru, " and then cry " unfair " when people question whether you really are what you claim to be. > so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ? It's not enlightened behavior. I'm not enlightened. I've never claimed to be enlightened. I'm not even a very good meditator. Not everybody pretends to be enlightened. > i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my > writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you > met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees > turn around ........ Oh is that what you're mad about? After all these years? Is that why you suddenly showed up here with a chip on your shoulder? Judi had nothing to do with my decision not to go ahead with it. I didn't even know her then. What happened was, after you and I agreed in principle, I began to read your existing published writing on your websites in order to find material that I could extract and combine into a single long article. The more I read, the less impressed I became, and I decided that I had made a mistake by asking if I could republish some of it. I apologize to you for this. It was inconsiderate. I should have read your material more carefully before I contacted you. Or else I should have sent an email telling you I had changed my mind. Either way, I acted badly. > just what part of attacking others do you see as > a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ? No part of it. That's not what I wrote. > how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that > Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of > Being that Self moves within ...... It doesn't fit. I don't think Judi is in Sri Ramana's state. I never said that she is. Best wishes, Rob - " alak_azam " <alak_azam <Realization > Wednesday, November 05, 2003 7:37 PM Re: Hello I am new here > Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> > wrote: > > Hi Alton, > > > > I can't answer the question with respect to Ganga without > > violating the forum rules. > > > so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting .... > thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ? > > so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ? > > what meter do you use to decide realization ? > > i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my > writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you > met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees > turn around ........ > > just what part of attacking others do you see as > a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ? > > now that is amazing ....... > > how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that > Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of > Being that Self moves within ...... > > > Excerpt : A caterpillar crawls on a blade of grass and when it > has come to the end , it seeks another support. While doing so it > holds on with its hind-legs to the blade of grass, lifts the body > and sways to and fro before it can hold another. Similiairly it is > with the Self. It stays in the Heart and holds other centres also > according to circumstances. But its activities always centre > round the Heart ........ > > pettiness , bitchiness, and Heart are not synonymous..... > you might want to look at your Realization meter and > contemplate making adjustments to it's voracity ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > Hi Ganga, > > > so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting .... > > thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ? > > I was just trying to answer Alton's question honestly > and stick to the rules at the same time. > > You hold yourself out as a guru. That makes it perfectly > appropriate for people to question your qualifications. SG: did i come and and say i am a guru ? > You can't say to the world, " I'm a realized guru, " and > then cry " unfair " when people question whether you > really are what you claim to be. SG; once again did i come here and claim anything ? > > so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ? > > It's not enlightened behavior. I'm not enlightened. I've > never claimed to be enlightened. I'm not even a very > good meditator. > > Not everybody pretends to be enlightened. SG: who is pretending to be enlightened ? i came and participated just like anyone else ........ > > i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my > > writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you > > met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees > > turn around ........ > > Oh is that what you're mad about? After all these years? > Is that why you suddenly showed up here with a chip on > your shoulder? SG: no i didn't come with any chip ....... once again look in the archives ....... i just came like anyone else that participates here ........ an no i am not mad just stating facts ......... > Judi had nothing to do with my decision not to go ahead > with it. I didn't even know her then. What happened was, > after you and I agreed in principle, I began to read your > existing published writing on your websites in order to find > material that I could extract and combine into a single long > article. The more I read, the less impressed I became, > and I decided that I had made a mistake by asking if I could > republish some of it. SG: so just be honest in it ........ > I apologize to you for this. It was inconsiderate. I should > have read your material more carefully before I contacted > you. Or else I should have sent an email telling you I had > changed my mind. Either way, I acted badly. SG; there is no need to apologise for it ....... it makes no difference to me either way ........ but if you want to apologize try for just being pissy since you found out who i am ....... > > just what part of attacking others do you see as > > a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ? > > No part of it. That's not what I wrote. SG; no that is what judi does and you hold her in high esteem as someone you consider realized ....... > > > how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that > > Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of > > Being that Self moves within ...... > > It doesn't fit. I don't think Judi is in Sri Ramana's state. > I never said that she is. SG: so are there varying degrees of Realization ? it either is or is not ........ > Best wishes, > > Rob do you mean that or are you just making noise ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Realization , " ESSENTIAL I " <unbound@h...> wrote: > Dear Rob: > > I like you a lot and don't want to lose you as a friend, but my own configured mind wants fairness. > > You wrote in snip about Alak aka whatever: > > " The more I read, the less impressed I became, > and I decided that I had made a mistake by asking if I could > republish some of it. " > > I think it would be fair to Alak and the group if you tell the group what made you " less impressed about those aforesaid writing. I know it might be time consuming and much work, but Alak needs to be able to use this forum to have a dialogue about his/her writings. Otherwise he/she has been dissed without being able to neutralize and or explain his/her offerings. I want to know too. > > A huge can of worms has been opened and needs to be dealt with. Are you sure that no other persons influenced your decision not to use his/her work? > > By the way we are already packed. Only a few more cycles like me making lots of sushi's for the 15 hour journey. > > Will miss you and the group until I can get online there. > > Love, > Alton ** really it doesn't matter why he decided not to use it ...... that fact is he did and that is fine........ not everyone is going to resonate with Nisargadatta or Poonjaji ........ so why would everyone resonate with me ? be that as it may to infer that i am a fraud and pretending to be enlightened is unwarrented ...... the only way he could determine that to be so is IF he were himself Realized and had spent time in close proximity as to know the life in connection with the words ......... being that he is not - nor has not just what gauge is being used ...... if he looks closely it will be found that my words are in direct alignment with Sri Ramana, other sages, and the upanishads ...... would judi hold up as well ? one will see only what they are open to seeing ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 As someone who does not know any of you personally, or which groups you are on, or were on, or will be on, or the different name-sounds you are currently using, I just want to say that I find this whole more-enlightened-than-thou shtick hilarious. Gelf alak_azam [alak_azam] Thursday, November 06, 2003 12:30 AM Realization Re: Hello I am new here Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > Hi Ganga, > > > so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting .... > > thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ? > > I was just trying to answer Alton's question honestly > and stick to the rules at the same time. > > You hold yourself out as a guru. That makes it perfectly > appropriate for people to question your qualifications. SG: did i come and and say i am a guru ? > You can't say to the world, " I'm a realized guru, " and > then cry " unfair " when people question whether you > really are what you claim to be. SG; once again did i come here and claim anything ? > > so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ? > > It's not enlightened behavior. I'm not enlightened. I've > never claimed to be enlightened. I'm not even a very > good meditator. > > Not everybody pretends to be enlightened. SG: who is pretending to be enlightened ? i came and participated just like anyone else ........ > > i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my > > writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you > > met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees > > turn around ........ > > Oh is that what you're mad about? After all these years? > Is that why you suddenly showed up here with a chip on > your shoulder? SG: no i didn't come with any chip ....... once again look in the archives ....... i just came like anyone else that participates here ........ an no i am not mad just stating facts ......... > Judi had nothing to do with my decision not to go ahead > with it. I didn't even know her then. What happened was, > after you and I agreed in principle, I began to read your > existing published writing on your websites in order to find > material that I could extract and combine into a single long > article. The more I read, the less impressed I became, > and I decided that I had made a mistake by asking if I could > republish some of it. SG: so just be honest in it ........ > I apologize to you for this. It was inconsiderate. I should > have read your material more carefully before I contacted > you. Or else I should have sent an email telling you I had > changed my mind. Either way, I acted badly. SG; there is no need to apologise for it ....... it makes no difference to me either way ........ but if you want to apologize try for just being pissy since you found out who i am ....... > > just what part of attacking others do you see as > > a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ? > > No part of it. That's not what I wrote. SG; no that is what judi does and you hold her in high esteem as someone you consider realized ....... > > > how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that > > Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of > > Being that Self moves within ...... > > It doesn't fit. I don't think Judi is in Sri Ramana's state. > I never said that she is. SG: so are there varying degrees of Realization ? it either is or is not ........ > Best wishes, > > Rob do you mean that or are you just making noise ? ...........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.org By sending a message to this list, you are giving permission to have it reproduced as a letter on http://www.realization.org ................................................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Hi Alton, > I think it would be fair to Alak and the group if you > tell the group what made you "less impressed about > those aforesaid writing. I don't see how this involves fairness, but if anybody wants to know, they can write to me privately and I'll tell them. > A huge can of worms has been opened and needs > to be dealt with. Are you serious? For goodness sake, Alton, editors accept and reject material everyday, and they frequently change their minds. This happens a hundred thousand times a day at every website, newspaper, and magazine on the planet. This isn't a can of worms ... it's publishing. > Are you sure that no other persons influenced > your decision not to use his/her work? Yes I'm sure, but even if somebody did influence the decision, what difference would it make? I'm influenced all the time by all kinds of things. > Will miss you and the group until I can get online there. Likewise, buddy. Hope you get plugged in right away. Have a great trip. Aloha, Rob - ESSENTIAL I Realization Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:46 PM Re: Re: Hello I am new here Dear Rob: I like you a lot and don't want to lose you as a friend, but my own configured mind wants fairness. You wrote in snip about Alak aka whatever: "The more I read, the less impressed I became, and I decided that I had made a mistake by asking if I could republish some of it." I think it would be fair to Alak and the group if you tell the group what made you "less impressed about those aforesaid writing. I know it might be time consuming and much work, but Alak needs to be able to use this forum to have a dialogue about his/her writings. Otherwise he/she has been dissed without being able to neutralize and or explain his/her offerings. I want to know too. A huge can of worms has been opened and needs to be dealt with. Are you sure that no other persons influenced your decision not to use his/her work? By the way we are already packed. Only a few more cycles like me making lots of sushi's for the 15 hour journey. Will miss you and the group until I can get online there. Love, Alton Hi Ganga,> so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting .... > thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ? I was just trying to answer Alton's question honestlyand stick to the rules at the same time.You hold yourself out as a guru. That makes it perfectly appropriate for people to question your qualifications. You can't say to the world, "I'm a realized guru," andthen cry "unfair" when people question whether you really are what you claim to be.> so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ? It's not enlightened behavior. I'm not enlightened. I've never claimed to be enlightened. I'm not even a very good meditator.Not everybody pretends to be enlightened.> i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my > writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you > met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees> turn around ........ Oh is that what you're mad about? After all these years?Is that why you suddenly showed up here with a chip onyour shoulder?Judi had nothing to do with my decision not to go ahead with it. I didn't even know her then. What happened was, after you and I agreed in principle, I began to read your existing published writing on your websites in order to find material that I could extract and combine into a single long article. The more I read, the less impressed I became, and I decided that I had made a mistake by asking if I could republish some of it.I apologize to you for this. It was inconsiderate. I shouldhave read your material more carefully before I contacted you. Or else I should have sent an email telling you I hadchanged my mind. Either way, I acted badly.> just what part of attacking others do you see as > a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ? No part of it. That's not what I wrote.> how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that > Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of > Being that Self moves within ...... It doesn't fit. I don't think Judi is in Sri Ramana's state.I never said that she is. Best wishes,Rob- "alak_azam" <alak_azam<Realization >Wednesday, November 05, 2003 7:37 PM Re: Hello I am new here> Realization , "Rob Sacks" <editor@r...> > wrote:> > Hi Alton,> > > > I can't answer the question with respect to Ganga without > > violating the forum rules.> > > so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting .... > thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ? > > so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ? > > what meter do you use to decide realization ? > > i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my > writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you > met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees> turn around ........ > > just what part of attacking others do you see as > a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ? > > now that is amazing ....... > > how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that > Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of > Being that Self moves within ...... > > > Excerpt : A caterpillar crawls on a blade of grass and when it > has come to the end , it seeks another support. While doing so it > holds on with its hind-legs to the blade of grass, lifts the body > and sways to and fro before it can hold another. Similiairly it is > with the Self. It stays in the Heart and holds other centres also > according to circumstances. But its activities always centre > round the Heart ........> > pettiness , bitchiness, and Heart are not synonymous..... > you might want to look at your Realization meter and > contemplate making adjustments to it's voracity ...... ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................ 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Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 > If you stuck to issues would that violate the forum rules? The rule is, no personal criticisms (no disparaging remarks about people themselves). - ESSENTIAL I Realization Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:48 PM Re: Re: Hello I am new here Hi Alton, I can't answer the question with respect to Ganga without violating the forum rules. If you stuck to issues would that violate the forum rules? Love, Alton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Dear Alton, > Did not he say that and that is why he did not > give more information about what happens. Can I ask you a question before I answer yours? Where does this idea come from that Sri Ramana didn't give information about things? People say this frequently in these mail groups. It's not true. He said all kinds of things about all kinds of topics. He talked quite a bit about jnana, about how his state felt, about the process of realization ... etc. etc. Sri Ramanasramam publishes over a hundred books ... you might be surprised at what is contained in some of them. Ramana defined realization as a permanent dissolution of the I-thought in the heart center. According to him, it only happens once. Either it happened in a given individual or it didn't. Everybody who is realized is equally realized. There are no shades of realization. He said that often, there is a process leading up to this event in which people practice staying in nirvikalpa samadhi for longer and longer periods of time. He described it this way: "Nirvikalpa is chit -- effortless, formless consciousness. Where does the terror come in, and where is the mystery in being oneself? To some people whose minds have become ripe from a long practice in the past, nirvikalpa comes suddenly as a flood, but to others it comes in the course of their spiritual practice, a practice which slowly wears down the obstructing thoughts and reveals the screen of pure awareness 'I-I'. Further practice renders the screen permanently exposed. This is Self-Realization, mukti [liberation], or sahaja samadhi [natural samadhi], the natural, effortless state." > The sliding scale may take the form of more megawatts and > the capacity for more bliss. Ramana experienced so much > bliss that he did not give a hoot about ants or rats gnawing at him. He said he wasn't in bliss. He said that his state was one of perfect peace, not bliss. For example, he said: "In samadhi itself there is perfect peace. Ecstasy comes when the mind revives at the end of samadhi, with the remembrance of the peace of samadhi. In devotion the ecstasy comes first. It is manifested by tears of joy, hair standing on end and vocal stumbling. When the ego finally dies and the sahaja [i.e. realization] is won, these symptoms and the ecstasies cease." (Both quotes in this email from Be As You Are, page 161) Sri Ramana didn't distinguish enlightenment from realization. > If you had other plans for today and tomorrow I apologize for taking > up you time. It only took a couple of minutes. I was joking the other day about charging for homework. I like to answer these questions because it keeps my memory fresh. I've pretty much stopped reading these books, and I'll forget them soon unless I rummage through them occasionally. Best regards, Rob - ESSENTIAL I Realization Wednesday, November 05, 2003 9:02 PM Re: Re: Hello I am new here Dear Rob: From where I am at I cant say whether this is right on or just hearsay. If we don't get to that Realization, then all we read may or may not be true, as it is all hearsay. So seekers have to BELIEVE so that they can progress on any particular path. Right now I still believe that Realization is on a sliding scale and so is Enlightenment. If that were not true than Ramana would not have said that there may be differences in what is experienced. Did not he say that and that is why he did not give more information about what happens? The sliding scale may take the form of more megawatts and the capacity for more bliss. Ramana experienced so much bliss that he did not give a hoot about ants or rats gnawing at him. If you disagree I will have to reread the parts where that was mentioned. If you had other plans for today and tomorrow I apologize for taking up you time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Hi Ganga, > > SG: did i come and and say i am a guru ? Haha, of course not. You came under a false identity. You even modified your writing style to conceal who you are. Anybody who is curious about the claims you make for yourself can visit your mail group and see what goes on there. Best wishes, Rob - " alak_azam " <alak_azam <Realization > Thursday, November 06, 2003 1:30 AM Re: Hello I am new here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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