Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Dear onniko: All these "trips" that posit an absolute, like turning on a light switch are wrong in my view. I am sure when I get to that "place" I will hold the same view and be able to communicate it from experience and not opinion and hearsay. Ramana may have attained one of the highest places that consciousness provides, but that cant be all there is, because the Universe has no end or beginning. Right now I'd bet that Ramana would not like to hang around his Samadhi shrine and then be free to traverse the wonders of the universe. Now he must stay in that body bag with those special fragrant herbs until this world explodes. Personally I'll take cremation and have no one worship me, but in my religion cremation is not allowed, so I have a huge conflict with my Grandson who wants me buried. Love, Alton Realization , "ESSENTIAL I" <unbound@h...> wrote:Awakening Only Begins a Process"One of Buddhism's best-known maps of awakening comes fromthe Theravada tradition of the Elders of Southeast Asia. TheElders' map describes enlightenment as four progressive stagesof "Noble Understanding," each of which brings a new level offreedom. The initial stage is called "Entering the Stream." Streamentry occurs when we have our first taste of the absolutefreedom of enlightenment, a freedom of the heart beyond allthe changing conditions of the world."Like satori or kensho (a profound awakening) in Zen, streamentry brings a breathtaking change of understanding. In thisfirst enlightenment a person sees through the illusion of separateself, releases identification with body and mind, and awakens tothe timeless peace of Nirvana. Through it the direction of our lifeis forever changed, and we enter a stream that will carry us togreater freedom as inevitably as a swift-flowing current carriesa leaf to the sea."But even though we have seen the truth, the Elders say, furtherpurification remains necessary for us to transform our characterand embody this new understanding in our life. Thus begins thejourney from stream entry to the second stage, "Returning Again."Through a deep process, often requiring many years, we discoverand release the coarsest habits of grasping and aversion that re-create our fearful and limited sense of self. Attaining the secondstage requires a continual and heartfelt attention to the sufferingthat comes when we cling to our desires and fears, to our ideasand ideals. As these forces of human life are understood, theylose their hold on us. Finally, in a deep realization, the strongestforces of desire, grasping, anger, and fear significantly dropaway. We fulfill the second stage."The third stage the Elders call " Non-Returning." In this we areirrevocably released from any remaining desire, grasping, anger,and fear, nevermore to return to their sway. The very few whoprogress to this third stage do so through a long process ofabiding in profound calm and emptiness. When wisdom grows,the subtle movements of clinging in the heart are abandonedthe moment they arise. At this stage we rest in freedom and thereality of the present, and the heart's deep peace is rarelydisturbed."Finally comes the fourth and most extraordinary stage, called"Great Awakening," in which the last traces of subtle clingingeven to joy, freedom, and meditation itself-fall away. Nowwithout the slightest identification with self, we are freedfrom the vestiges of pride, judgment, restlessness, and separationthat veil pure being. The radiance of our true nature shinesunhindered throughout our life."This map of the Elders explains how it is possible that a personwho has experienced an obvious and deep enlightenment can stillbe caught in greed, anger, and delusion. After stream entry, aperson can give genuinely inspired teachings on realization andillumination, yet still not be living them. That is why furtherstages of awakening are essential."Most masters agree that after the first illumination, there canstill arise periods of fear, confusion, loss of spiritual bearings,and unskillful conduct. No matter how compelling the vision, howprofound the initial sense of freedom and grace, a process ofmaturation must follow. Over the years I have not seen a singleWesterner for whom this was not true, and it seems to be truefor most Asian teachers as well. If we fail to acknowledge thistruth, we simply fool ourselves. When a proud mother onceannounced to Mullah Nasruddin, "My son has finished hisstudies," Nasruddin replied., "No doubt God will send him more."It is like that for us all."'After the Ecstasy, the Laundry'by Jack KornfieldNamaste> Dear Rob:> From where I am at I cant say whether this is right on or just hearsay.> If we don't get to that Realization, then all we read may or may not be true, as it is all hearsay. So seekers have to BELIEVE so that they can progress on any particular path. > > Right now I still believe that Realization is on a sliding scale and so is Enlightenment. > If that were not true than Ramana would not have said that there may be differences in what is experienced. Did not he say that and that is why he did not give more information about what happens? The sliding scale may take the form of more megawatts and the capacity for more bliss.> Ramana experienced so much bliss that he did not give a hoot about ants or rats gnawing at him.> > If you disagree I will have to reread the parts where that was mentioned.> > If you had other plans for today and tomorrow I apologize for taking up you time.> > > > Love,> Alton> > > Here's another quote about Ramana Maharshi's sahaja samadhi.> This one addresses Alton's question exactly:> > "The sahaja state is a permanent one. It is not a state that one> enters or leaves. A visit to the ashram by Satchidananda > Yogeeswara of Cudappa, a man who went 'into' and 'out of'> samadhi, gave us an opportunity to explain the real nature of> sahaja samadhi. The swami, a famous hatha yogi, was touring> the whole of India, staying in all the important ashrams for three> days and giving discourses. During his tour he also came to > Tiruvannamalai. He visited the ashram, conversed for some time> with Sri Bhagavan, and then returned to where he was staying in> the town. Since those who had accompanied him invited us to> come and listen to his discourse, i and a devotee called > Palanimalai, who was a knowledgeable man, went to attend the> meeting.> > "When we arrived we were told by one of his followers, 'Swami> is in samadhi. He will come out of it at a specific time and only> after that will the discourse start.'> > "Then he asked us, 'At what times is your Bhagavan in samadhi?'> > "Hearing this, Palanimalai Swami could not suppress a burst of> laughter, though he tried unsuccessfully to change it into an> 'Is that so?' The disciple of the yogi asked us the reason for this> laughter.> > "I replied, 'There is no schedule for jnanis. They do not go into> samadhi or come out of it at specific times. Because he knows > this he had to laugh when he heard you speak about entering> and leaving samadhi.'> > "Then, to make my meaning more clear, I added, 'Sri Bhagavan> is always in sahaja nishta [the natural state].'> > "After staying there for some time and listening to his discourse,> we returned to the ashram. As usual, Sri Bhagavan enquired> about what had taken place at the meeting.> > "When I told him what had happened, he said with a smile,> 'People are under the impression that the state of samadhi is> something limited by times and places. They think that sitting> still in one place for hours together, without any movement and> with the eyes closed, is samadhi. What to do?'"> > -- From the chapter on Kunju Swami in Power of the Presence, > Part 2, by David Godman, pp. 83-84...........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Realization , " ESSENTIAL I " <unbound@h...> wrote: Awakening Only Begins a Process " One of Buddhism's best-known maps of awakening comes from the Theravada tradition of the Elders of Southeast Asia. The Elders' map describes enlightenment as four progressive stages of " Noble Understanding, " each of which brings a new level of freedom. The initial stage is called " Entering the Stream. " Stream entry occurs when we have our first taste of the absolute freedom of enlightenment, a freedom of the heart beyond all the changing conditions of the world. " Like satori or kensho (a profound awakening) in Zen, stream entry brings a breathtaking change of understanding. In this first enlightenment a person sees through the illusion of separate self, releases identification with body and mind, and awakens to the timeless peace of Nirvana. Through it the direction of our life is forever changed, and we enter a stream that will carry us to greater freedom as inevitably as a swift-flowing current carries a leaf to the sea. " But even though we have seen the truth, the Elders say, further purification remains necessary for us to transform our character and embody this new understanding in our life. Thus begins the journey from stream entry to the second stage, " Returning Again. " Through a deep process, often requiring many years, we discover and release the coarsest habits of grasping and aversion that re- create our fearful and limited sense of self. Attaining the second stage requires a continual and heartfelt attention to the suffering that comes when we cling to our desires and fears, to our ideas and ideals. As these forces of human life are understood, they lose their hold on us. Finally, in a deep realization, the strongest forces of desire, grasping, anger, and fear significantly drop away. We fulfill the second stage. " The third stage the Elders call " Non-Returning. " In this we are irrevocably released from any remaining desire, grasping, anger, and fear, nevermore to return to their sway. The very few who progress to this third stage do so through a long process of abiding in profound calm and emptiness. When wisdom grows, the subtle movements of clinging in the heart are abandoned the moment they arise. At this stage we rest in freedom and the reality of the present, and the heart's deep peace is rarely disturbed. " Finally comes the fourth and most extraordinary stage, called " Great Awakening, " in which the last traces of subtle clinging even to joy, freedom, and meditation itself-fall away. Now without the slightest identification with self, we are freed from the vestiges of pride, judgment, restlessness, and separation that veil pure being. The radiance of our true nature shines unhindered throughout our life. " This map of the Elders explains how it is possible that a person who has experienced an obvious and deep enlightenment can still be caught in greed, anger, and delusion. After stream entry, a person can give genuinely inspired teachings on realization and illumination, yet still not be living them. That is why further stages of awakening are essential. " Most masters agree that after the first illumination, there can still arise periods of fear, confusion, loss of spiritual bearings, and unskillful conduct. No matter how compelling the vision, how profound the initial sense of freedom and grace, a process of maturation must follow. Over the years I have not seen a single Westerner for whom this was not true, and it seems to be true for most Asian teachers as well. If we fail to acknowledge this truth, we simply fool ourselves. When a proud mother once announced to Mullah Nasruddin, " My son has finished his studies, " Nasruddin replied., " No doubt God will send him more. " It is like that for us all. " 'After the Ecstasy, the Laundry' by Jack Kornfield Namaste > Dear Rob: > From where I am at I cant say whether this is right on or just hearsay. > If we don't get to that Realization, then all we read may or may not be true, as it is all hearsay. So seekers have to BELIEVE so that they can progress on any particular path. > > Right now I still believe that Realization is on a sliding scale and so is Enlightenment. > If that were not true than Ramana would not have said that there may be differences in what is experienced. Did not he say that and that is why he did not give more information about what happens? The sliding scale may take the form of more megawatts and the capacity for more bliss. > Ramana experienced so much bliss that he did not give a hoot about ants or rats gnawing at him. > > If you disagree I will have to reread the parts where that was mentioned. > > If you had other plans for today and tomorrow I apologize for taking up you time. > > > > Love, > Alton > > > Here's another quote about Ramana Maharshi's sahaja samadhi. > This one addresses Alton's question exactly: > > " The sahaja state is a permanent one. It is not a state that one > enters or leaves. A visit to the ashram by Satchidananda > Yogeeswara of Cudappa, a man who went 'into' and 'out of' > samadhi, gave us an opportunity to explain the real nature of > sahaja samadhi. The swami, a famous hatha yogi, was touring > the whole of India, staying in all the important ashrams for three > days and giving discourses. During his tour he also came to > Tiruvannamalai. He visited the ashram, conversed for some time > with Sri Bhagavan, and then returned to where he was staying in > the town. Since those who had accompanied him invited us to > come and listen to his discourse, i and a devotee called > Palanimalai, who was a knowledgeable man, went to attend the > meeting. > > " When we arrived we were told by one of his followers, 'Swami > is in samadhi. He will come out of it at a specific time and only > after that will the discourse start.' > > " Then he asked us, 'At what times is your Bhagavan in samadhi?' > > " Hearing this, Palanimalai Swami could not suppress a burst of > laughter, though he tried unsuccessfully to change it into an > 'Is that so?' The disciple of the yogi asked us the reason for this > laughter. > > " I replied, 'There is no schedule for jnanis. They do not go into > samadhi or come out of it at specific times. Because he knows > this he had to laugh when he heard you speak about entering > and leaving samadhi.' > > " Then, to make my meaning more clear, I added, 'Sri Bhagavan > is always in sahaja nishta [the natural state].' > > " After staying there for some time and listening to his discourse, > we returned to the ashram. As usual, Sri Bhagavan enquired > about what had taken place at the meeting. > > " When I told him what had happened, he said with a smile, > 'People are under the impression that the state of samadhi is > something limited by times and places. They think that sitting > still in one place for hours together, without any movement and > with the eyes closed, is samadhi. What to do?' " > > -- From the chapter on Kunju Swami in Power of the Presence, > Part 2, by David Godman, pp. 83-84. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 Realization , " ESSENTIAL I " <unbound@h...> wrote: > > Dear onniko: > All these " trips " that posit an absolute, like turning on a light switch are wrong in my view. I am sure when I get to that " place " I will hold the same view and be able to communicate it from experience and not opinion and hearsay. > > Ramana may have attained one of the highest places that consciousness provides, but that cant be all there is, because the Universe has no end or beginning. Right now I'd bet that Ramana would not like to hang around his Samadhi shrine and then be free to traverse the wonders of the universe. Now he must stay in that body bag with those special fragrant herbs until this world explodes. Personally I'll take cremation and have no one worship me, but in my religion cremation is not allowed, so I have a huge conflict with my Grandson who wants me buried. I'm with you. Just burn the rotting flesh before it starts to smell. No funeral, remember me in life if you want to but don't forget that we are always together. > > Love, > Alton > > > Realization , " ESSENTIAL I " <unbound@h...> > wrote: > > Awakening Only Begins a Process > > > " One of Buddhism's best-known maps of awakening comes from > the Theravada tradition of the Elders of Southeast Asia. The > Elders' map describes enlightenment as four progressive stages > of " Noble Understanding, " each of which brings a new level of > freedom. The initial stage is called " Entering the Stream. " Stream > entry occurs when we have our first taste of the absolute > freedom of enlightenment, a freedom of the heart beyond all > the changing conditions of the world. > > > " Like satori or kensho (a profound awakening) in Zen, stream > entry brings a breathtaking change of understanding. In this > first enlightenment a person sees through the illusion of separate > self, releases identification with body and mind, and awakens to > the timeless peace of Nirvana. Through it the direction of our life > is forever changed, and we enter a stream that will carry us to > greater freedom as inevitably as a swift-flowing current carries > a leaf to the sea. > > > " But even though we have seen the truth, the Elders say, further > purification remains necessary for us to transform our character > and embody this new understanding in our life. Thus begins the > journey from stream entry to the second stage, " Returning Again. " > Through a deep process, often requiring many years, we discover > and release the coarsest habits of grasping and aversion that re- > create our fearful and limited sense of self. Attaining the second > stage requires a continual and heartfelt attention to the suffering > that comes when we cling to our desires and fears, to our ideas > and ideals. As these forces of human life are understood, they > lose their hold on us. Finally, in a deep realization, the strongest > forces of desire, grasping, anger, and fear significantly drop > away. We fulfill the second stage. > > > " The third stage the Elders call " Non-Returning. " In this we are > irrevocably released from any remaining desire, grasping, anger, > and fear, nevermore to return to their sway. The very few who > progress to this third stage do so through a long process of > abiding in profound calm and emptiness. When wisdom grows, > the subtle movements of clinging in the heart are abandoned > the moment they arise. At this stage we rest in freedom and the > reality of the present, and the heart's deep peace is rarely > disturbed. > > > " Finally comes the fourth and most extraordinary stage, called > " Great Awakening, " in which the last traces of subtle clinging > even to joy, freedom, and meditation itself-fall away. Now > without the slightest identification with self, we are freed > from the vestiges of pride, judgment, restlessness, and separation > that veil pure being. The radiance of our true nature shines > unhindered throughout our life. > > > " This map of the Elders explains how it is possible that a person > who has experienced an obvious and deep enlightenment can still > be caught in greed, anger, and delusion. After stream entry, a > person can give genuinely inspired teachings on realization and > illumination, yet still not be living them. That is why further > stages of awakening are essential. > > > " Most masters agree that after the first illumination, there can > still arise periods of fear, confusion, loss of spiritual bearings, > and unskillful conduct. No matter how compelling the vision, how > profound the initial sense of freedom and grace, a process of > maturation must follow. Over the years I have not seen a single > Westerner for whom this was not true, and it seems to be true > for most Asian teachers as well. If we fail to acknowledge this > truth, we simply fool ourselves. When a proud mother once > announced to Mullah Nasruddin, " My son has finished his > studies, " Nasruddin replied., " No doubt God will send him more. " > It is like that for us all. " > > 'After the Ecstasy, the Laundry' > by Jack Kornfield > > Namaste > > > > > > Dear Rob: > > From where I am at I cant say whether this is right on or just > hearsay. > > If we don't get to that Realization, then all we read may or may > not be true, as it is all hearsay. So seekers have to BELIEVE so > that they can progress on any particular path. > > > > Right now I still believe that Realization is on a sliding scale > and so is Enlightenment. > > If that were not true than Ramana would not have said that there > may be differences in what is experienced. Did not he say that and > that is why he did not give more information about what happens? The > sliding scale may take the form of more megawatts and the capacity > for more bliss. > > Ramana experienced so much bliss that he did not give a hoot about > ants or rats gnawing at him. > > > > If you disagree I will have to reread the parts where that was > mentioned. > > > > If you had other plans for today and tomorrow I apologize for > taking up you time. > > > > > > > > Love, > > Alton > > > > > > Here's another quote about Ramana Maharshi's sahaja samadhi. > > This one addresses Alton's question exactly: > > > > " The sahaja state is a permanent one. It is not a state that one > > enters or leaves. A visit to the ashram by Satchidananda > > Yogeeswara of Cudappa, a man who went 'into' and 'out of' > > samadhi, gave us an opportunity to explain the real nature of > > sahaja samadhi. The swami, a famous hatha yogi, was touring > > the whole of India, staying in all the important ashrams for > three > > days and giving discourses. During his tour he also came to > > Tiruvannamalai. He visited the ashram, conversed for some time > > with Sri Bhagavan, and then returned to where he was staying in > > the town. Since those who had accompanied him invited us to > > come and listen to his discourse, i and a devotee called > > Palanimalai, who was a knowledgeable man, went to attend the > > meeting. > > > > " When we arrived we were told by one of his followers, 'Swami > > is in samadhi. He will come out of it at a specific time and > only > > after that will the discourse start.' > > > > " Then he asked us, 'At what times is your Bhagavan in samadhi?' > > > > " Hearing this, Palanimalai Swami could not suppress a burst of > > laughter, though he tried unsuccessfully to change it into an > > 'Is that so?' The disciple of the yogi asked us the reason for > this > > laughter. > > > > " I replied, 'There is no schedule for jnanis. They do not go into > > samadhi or come out of it at specific times. Because he knows > > this he had to laugh when he heard you speak about entering > > and leaving samadhi.' > > > > " Then, to make my meaning more clear, I added, 'Sri Bhagavan > > is always in sahaja nishta [the natural state].' > > > > " After staying there for some time and listening to his > discourse, > > we returned to the ashram. As usual, Sri Bhagavan enquired > > about what had taken place at the meeting. > > > > " When I told him what had happened, he said with a smile, > > 'People are under the impression that the state of samadhi is > > something limited by times and places. They think that sitting > > still in one place for hours together, without any movement and > > with the eyes closed, is samadhi. What to do?' " > > > > -- From the chapter on Kunju Swami in Power of the Presence, > > Part 2, by David Godman, pp. 83-84. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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